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‘I Thought You Were Okay With It’

This nugget of Stupid Shit Cheaters Say was recently submitted to me:

“Let’s be honest. You’ve had another man in your life for the past 5 years”.

This is referring to our 5-year-old son!

“I thought you were ok with it. Whenever I went out, the next day you just asked if I had fun.“

This is referring to his many many nights away with friends, which it transpires, were also a cover for him screwing his ex-girlfriend. It’s called trust idiot; not permission.


Wow MommyGuilt, I don’t know what is more pernicious, blaming a kindergartener for his mother’s abuse, OR blaming you for green-lighting his abuse.

It makes me wonder if someone this toxic might just implode from narcissism, and collapse in on themselves like a dying star. How does he carry the weight of all that bullshit around in his head?

MommyGuilt, you’ve put other Gods before him. It’s unacceptable! (Although I’m wondering, if he’s gone so many nights out with his “friends”, who did he expect was taking care of his son? Were you supposed to kennel him?)

This “you put the children first” mindfuckery is part of the Reconciliation Industrial Complex. To wit, Voldemort-impersonator Andrew Marshall gave us:

This is one that acknowledges your unhelpful behaviour (eg taking him for granted), accepts your responsibility (you’ve been so wrapped up in the children you’ve forgotten to be a wife as well as a mother), expresses sorrow and a determination to change, and is sincere.

Yes chumps. You’ve been adulting. Taking care of the most vulnerable, packing lunches, wiping snotty noses, making midnight runs for posterboard for that last-minute science project. That was time you could’ve spent pick-me dancing. Perfecting your lingerie game, making his favorite snack foods, crushing your needs into tiny imperceptible particles, aerating them and misting the geraniums instead.

I don’t know… my point is, mothers, it’s YOUR fault his dick wanders.

(Men, gay women, there must be an equivalent blameshift for you. Fill me in at the comments.)

As to I Thought You Were Okay With It — file this one under “Surely, You Must’ve Known.”

Yeah, you know how you find out if someone is okay with it? ASK THEM.

Obviously, this is a ploy to avoid responsibility. To me, however, interesting tell is “you just asked if I had fun.” The unvarnished entitlement, clearly his Happiness is the Most Important Thing. Assured that what he did brought him joy, discussion is over.

Did the little people suffer? Who cares.

MommyGuilt, you sound like you have your head screwed on straight — trust is not permission. I hope this guy is your ex-husband in short order.

If the divorce summons comes as a shock, just tell him you thought he was okay with it.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • I wonder how many of us have permission for nights out thinking nothing of it only to discover these nights out weren’t just with “the girls” or “the boys.” Our trust was violated.

    • I seemingly couldn’t trust my ex to go to his work let alone nights out !!

      • Right with you on work!
        How could I say “no” to late nights because of a deal closing? Or having to go to huge work conferences all over the world? He was working such long hours for our future!
        My trust, my heart and my faith in the goodness of others was violated, stamped on and spit on.

    • Yeah, I also was had by the “girls night out” lie. Here I was at home, taking care of our kids, on the assumption it really was dinner with a bunch of women she worked with.

      • Me too!! Then it turned into full weekends cause they were drinking wine and “no one wanted to drive” blah blah all bullshit. Hmmm she never had a problem with the drive home for 24 years but now it’s an issue. Such horseshit..good riddance!

        • Ah. I was the totally trusing idiot, and she was the ultra-sneaky bitch. She was fucking her boss on the weekends when I was working, claiming SHE was working extra because of big projects he was asking her to fulfill. Otherwise, we were pretty much together and/or with the kids the rest of the time. Except when she was off doing her local politician thing. You know, the thing she had to do to be her, regardless of how it affected her family’s time (or lack thereof) w/her. I never thought to question it when she said she was doing work. Stupidly trusting me.

          And of course, she’s now w/her AP, her rich and slightly well-known (in our state) former politician boss. The same 15 years older than her, formerly married for 40 years, fuckwit asshole who’s currently freaking out about being over 65 yo and possibly more susceptible to Covid-19. To the point he’s got the XW telling me to hold onto our 14 yo son for an extra 5 days until they’ve both completed a 14 day isolation (which was NOT a true 14 day isolation. But what do I know? I’m only a healthcare professional).

          Fine w/me. More time w/my son. The fuckwits.

          I’m w/you, Kbchump. Good riddance to our fuckwits, and their POS AP’s. Now, if I could only get quicker to the point where I can stop conversing w/the XW for the most part. Oh, well. That’ll happen in a little over four years, when our son graduates from high school. Can’t wait.

    • He made a “date” with her right in front of me. Saying she needed his help with her daddy issues and marriage troubles. He asked me if it was ok. I told him she should be talking to a marriage counselor and her own husband, not mine. I think it turned physical after that dinner date. He had a harem for “counseling sessions” throughout our marriage. I was an asshole for being bothered by it and recognizing that it was a vector for affairs to happen though because these coworkers just needed his wisdom.

      • That certainly brings back memories Magically Chumpilicious! My ex of 5 yrs was on the internet or would go see young college age girls to “counsel” with them because they were far away from home (most were Asian students or 30 something career women). He’s almost 69 now. There were also short time hookups with a maid at Motel 8 where he stayed while working on a construction project, and maybe others that I’m not aware of. Anyway, he ended up marrying a 40 yr old from Burmahe’d been talking to for 3yrs whom he met online when she was 38. Surprisingly (not really…), although I warned her of him & told her to back off, she was interfering with our marriage, she believed his love bombing. Now he’s doing the same to her, day & night. I’m totally at MEH & having the time of my life with guy friends & my girlfriends traveling, dancing etc. Never thought I’d get to MEH, took me about 2 yrs after the divorce & I couldn’t be happier! It is possible ????

    • All the time my former Narc husband bringing them into my house with the kids there while I worked graveyard stocking shelves at a store, dead of freezing Canadian Winter!????????????

    • Yup, my Ex didn’t really have friends, or a social life that wasn’t organized by me, or even much relationship with HIS family that wasn’t maintained by me.

      So when he started going for a beer w/ ‘people from work’ some Friday evenings, I was actively encouraging! Yeah, no…. it was one person from work …..

      • Ahh, the old dinner or drinks with “people/friends from work”. That should have been my first realization that he was lying. He has no real friends. Just during football season when they call each other and compare notes like they are the ones coaching the teams. Where is the facepalm emoji 🙂

        • Yup, me too. He was always so cranky and miserable, I suggested he take fun trips with buddied (hoping a little fun would help).

          So one day, Cheater (who never really asked my approval on anything) made a strangely specific inquiry if he could extend a business trip to Seattle by 2-3 days for a whitewater rafting trip – assuring me he wouldnt do it unless I was fine with it.

          Turns out the work friends were singular…a certain Susan of Seattle and no rafting happened…they did also cross over into Canada so I didnt even know what fucking country he was in. I didnt find the reciepts for his fuckfest until after he was dead. I have zero idea of how I would have reacted if I had found them when he was alive.

        • Same here he had surface level friendships but no super close friends. Just coworkers including the married howorker & fantasy football buddies. He’ll be chummy with anyone as long as they keep giving him hero worship and laugh at his tired jokes.

  • I got this not only from the fuckwit, but from his (and I thought my) friends too! “We just assumed you had an open relationship!”

    Did you think of fucking asking me?????

    • That’s always what I tell my friends who start seeing a new person and tell me “He’s got a wife/girlfriend but they’re poly!”

      I say “Did he tell you that? Have you asked his wife/girlfriend?”

      I was having this conversation with a coworker not two weeks ago. She was about to go on a date with someone on Tinder who had claimed to be broken up with his girlfriend but still living with her, but “she knows and doesn’t care.”

      I said are you sure? Have you asked this woman?


      The litmus test for it is if he’s telling the truth, if she’s really ok with it, there shouldn’t be a a problem if you ask to talk to her. If there’s a bunch of excuses why you can’t, drop his ass. That’s suspicious as hell.

      So far, after I’ve brought that up, two friends have outed cheaters and one got dumped when she asked (probably a cheater situation too.)

      • Airhead” “His wife doesn’t understand him. They’re in unhappy marriage.”

        Me: “Does his wife know this?”

        • Exactly. This reminds me of a lunch cheater and I had with one of his female coworkers during wreckonciliation. His mistress and the mother of his second child worked with both of them. We were having lunch and my husband casually mentioned he had just been to Vienna to visit this “coparent” and baby (which had landed us in another huge fight because it was supposed to be a road trip to buy me wine).

          The coworker started chatting about boyfriend troubles then casually dropped a line about how cheater and I were having trouble but we were working it out. I snapped back, “only one of us knew we were in trouble!” Twenty years together, cheating from day 1 and and he never thought to mention “we were in trouble.”

      • I heard this line from a female acquaintance of mine a couple of weeks ago.
        “Monogamy is just not in our nature. His wife is ok with this.”
        Oh, did SHE tell you this, or did he? I’m betting she has no idea.

        Are people really this gullible? I can’t help but think these OW/OM are willfully deceiving themselves. They know deep down that line is baloney.

      • I had a friend who was in an actual open marriage…husband had his side things too and they often found other open couples.. She told me that she always insisted on meeting the wife/gf right away and if the guy refused she knew he was lying about her knowing.

        She wanted nothing to do with liars.

        • EXACTLY. If one is truly polyamorous or in an open marriage, meeting the current spouse is a MUST. Otherwise it is all lies guaranteed. My serial cheater (and serial rapist) ex told everyone but me that we were in an open relationship. When people asked about my end of things, she’d say I was fine with it but just didn’t want to know so of course they couldn’t talk to me about it. And these insane lies actually worked on SO many people. People felt SO SORRY for her because I was supposedly a prude and one of her flying monkey friends started lecturing me about compromising and having sex when I don’t want to… All based on lies.

          • Why tf should you have to have sex when you don’t want to? That’s creepy.

    • Exactly right? Like it is a no-brainer for them to just be OK with leaving you and the kids and going out. In my case the shit bag usually comes home the next morning and tells me he went to the casino after chilling with his friends. He’s done this for a decade and I always said I trusted him.

      Now that I am moving ahead with divorce it’s all my fault and he is just human and blah blah. This after I found out his mistress had his baby.

      The entitlement of it all.

  • My ex said he thought I was ok with him screwing my cousin. He used something I said years ago in anger against me. When I was having anxiety and could not handle crowds. My ex would get upset with me because I didn’t want to go anywhere there was a large crowd. He said I was making it up. I yelled at him and told him then go find someone else to go away with. To him that was me giving him permission to cheat. Looking back my anxiety and panic attacks only happened when I was with him.

      • Cuzchump, I feel your pain with the avoiding crowds. I’m a stroke survivor with 1/2 my visual field, no depth perception, and balance problems. ExH nagged and whined until I finally caved in and did things like attending Big 10 football games with 90k screaming fans, hot dogs being shot at the crowd from the huge cannon, me trying to shuffle down the stadium steps in the crowd surge while he grinned at me after having merrily skipped down the tiers… I still hate him for that. Crowded venues had never really been my thing anyway, but for the 24 years I spent with him post-stroke he still wanted me to attend things that were absolute torture for me (usually with flashing lights and music blasting). Selfish, entitled assholes!!!

        • Your ex sounds sadistic or one of those narcissists who needs you to be uncomfortable and or sacrifice something of yourself to prove your love for him..every day. (I’ve dated both.)

          • Granny K,

            Omg you just changed my life. I realize that this perfectly explains my ex in every way!

          • Granny K,

            Light bulb moment for me, too. I always why so many things with cheating ex-boyfriend were a physical test of some sort – would I hike/camp with him in sub-zero temperatures even though I’m sensitive to the cold (yep, and we ended up hiking out in the middle of the night b/c we were so unprepared), would I kayak with him on Lake Michigan even though the waves were crazy that day and I’m not a strong swimmer and the handful of people on the beach were telling us we were nuts (yep, and we got dumped in the water – dumbass lost his very expensive sunglasses and we had to walk the beach for miles to see if they washed up), would I go boating with him in Key West with a storm brewing (nope, and thank you to the series of boat captains who told him to fuck off).

            What the hell was I thinking, signing up for all that…and those are just a few examples.

  • I’m sorry MommyGuilt. Start planning your exit. He dropped his mask and showed you who he really is. It won’t get any better, only worse. I’ve tried the Pick Me Dance with an affair.
    I thought he was reinvested. Silly me, I later learned about Hopium. We had children x2 through fertility. My part was extremely difficult, took multiple times, lots of $$.
    We were blessed with two healthy children. He started viewing porn again on the computer AFTER I went to work in the mornings. Our children were upstairs! They could have seen what he was doing. HE DID NOT CARE!
    I filed paperwork. He was surprised. We still aren’t divorced yet. It’s been 4 years and counting. Who knows what else he was doing. He also had “friends.”
    FYI. It’s going to be awful frustrating. He will be terrible to coparent with. I have to share 50/50 custody with him. My children think he’s wonderful. Use a parenting app to communicate. That way there’s a trail of evidence. You’ll need it later to revoke or limit his custody. You’ll thank me later. Don’t use this as an excuse to stay! This isn’t a good role model for 5. It’s not healthy for you. GET OUT! GET HELP! Please I beg you!

    Hugs for you and 5 ????

    • ChickenChump, feel your angst. My story is very similar. Still not divorced after 2 years and postponed because of COVID, fighting for custody(courts awarded the fuckwit 50/50 even though he has been gone for 2 yrs). I have a coparenting app. I have the reverse, he wants 50/50 so I pay him child support.

      It’s a nightmare. These special kind of fuckwits make the kids play the pick me dance once divorce papers are filed. It is sick.

      On DDAY1, he tried to convince me she was a lesbian and she was a true friend for helping him with his ED. Luckily I was strong enough them to tell him, “a friend that helps you get divorced” Sadly, I think that took all my energy because we had 3 more DDAYS after before I filed. Its amazing what chumps put up with for the kids and keeping the idea of marriage intact.

    • I keep reading on here that people are getting 50/50 custody. Since when and why is this a thing? I grew up in a broken home and getting shipped back and forth every week would have been my worst nightmare. Living with my dad at all would have been a nightmare. Sure we saw him and our relationship was fine but I really don’t see how this is good for the kids. Is this trend backed up by evidence that the children benefit? I am inclined to think this is a belief rather than something based on sound research.

      • Oh it’s something special to correct the male backlash from the 80’s. Men have rights now. So unless you can prove they are extremely evil, they are automatically given 50% custody. Trust me, he’s doing some things I have conversations with my lawyer about. I got “well, I really don’t want to do ___, but I will if have to” from my lawyer who I pay! And the classic, “you know this will cost you more money if you pursue it? A letter is cheaper.” What am I paying you for? ????

      • Almost automatic 50/50 has “been a thing” for many years now, especially in states that have No Fault Divorce (total bullshit). Eight years ago when I went to my first divorce attorney, I was told No Fault & 50/50 had been the norm for years already.

        Imho, I can understand why 50/50 came about. Before that, it wasn’t fair to fathers who really truly actually wanted to parent. The old almost automatic custody going to the woman wasn’t fair to them (most especially if she had cheated). However, the automatic 50/50 has ended up hurting more then helping (especially hurting the kids).

        Too often, men are using the 50/50 just to avoid child support. Many times, they don’t parent when they have them, typical to have others like gfs or grandparents watch them instead, and the majority of the real parenting still falls on the mom. Yet, she isn’t compensated & it makes her job 10x harder. It’s also much worse for the kids. (I’m talking in huge generalities here. I know there are some really good dads out there who really do love and care for their kids, respect the ones on here.)

        In takes a lot of evidence, & a whole lot of money for attorney fees, to LEGALLY PROVE that one parent having the majority of custody time is what’s in fact best for the kids. Sad to say that usually the parent with the most money “wins”. Many are forced to go along with 50/50 because they don’t have the money, know how, &/or energy to fight it.

        • I agree for men that are cheated on and really want to be good fathers I see it. That is why there should be fault states and the one breaking the marriage contract (they willing entered) should be the one with less custody weather they be man or woman. The worst thing that happens to kids is when the cheater is a psychopath but everyone says the court don’t look at the actions but gives automatic custody which is only used to continue their abuse. Poor kids are only used as pawns with no regards to their well being.

          • I agree. I still think 50/50 is not a good idea in most cases but I don’t necessarily think that the woman should automatically get custody if they have caused the marriage to fall apart. I also don’t think it is 50/50 or nothing. I think the UK is worst case where you need fault to divorce but then it is not a consideration for custody or the split of assets.

            For me, with this virus, I doubt I will work again and will probably lose custody since I won’t have the money to live, let alone raise my daughter. She won’t see her dad after what he did to us and I fear that if she has to live with him, either because I cannot afford to take care of her or this virus kills me, she will be permanently damaged.

            I spoke to her about this 50/50 thing and she was appalled. She said she couldn’t imagine living like that. That she needed stability. I just hope I can continue to protect her long enough for her to be an adult who gets to decide for herself. (She’s 13.5)

      • I’m male. I fought hard to get 50 50 of my youngest teenage child (his elder siblings were in college). It cost me money by way legal fees and settlement negotiation and I didn’t care. It was essential for my child to know I had not abandoned him. I’m a terrible cook: I’m also a devoted dad. Thirty years from now I hope he says things, Yeah, my dad was a terrible cook, and he did his best to be in my life.

        • I didnt have a home. I had a bed at my mother’s house and a bed at my father’s house. This is so far from what I wanted for my children. And yet. My ex is at work 15 nights of 21. The 6 nights count as 1/3 custody for CS etc. He has *never* had all 3 for 6 nights in a row EVER. Document, document, document… Family court says irrelevant.
          In a way Im lucky as he ignores them completely. Doesnt feel like that but the damage will hopefully be less.

        • Epictetus,

          Just to be clear, I am not saying mom’s should always get the children. I feel for you and for sure think you should have access to your kids and maybe even full custody. I can’t comment specifically but a major factor should be how destructive cheaters are to the stability of the family. It says a whole lot that they would endanger their kids like that. I can’t believe that is not taken into account (not at all here in the UK – morality is not a consideration even though fault is required to get divorced.)

        • Epictetus,
          I’m glad you got your chance! Statistically speaking you are very special. Most chumps are straight women, all though they exist in all demographics. I’ve been trying to make sense of the mindfuckery. I’ve been reading books like Chump Lady’s and others to understand things. The lies are all the same. I worked with a female cheater. She left her two sons to go to Mexico with OM! Then eventually married and ugly divorced him. ON to other people to fuck with. OM was a cheater too, so I guess it was Karma.

        • Epictetus,

          I’m right there w/you. I’m a terrible cook, too, but I wanted my son (and in a way, my daughters) to know I was going to try my best for them as their dad. I luckily didn’t have to fight hard for custody of my son (my two older children, both daughters, were already 18 yo when the POS XW had her affair and abandoned me and the family we had created). I think it was a mixture of the XW being so selfish that she was tired of being the “same old” mom, and the fact that I got an intimidating lawyer.

          When I talked to the XW at one point soon after I settled on my lawyer (and had encouraged her to get her own), she relayed a comment her lawyer made about mine (both female lawyers, btw). She told me that her lawyer said mine was “a strong litigator.” I was glad to hear that. I knew it meant less trouble for me to get 50/50 custody (and eventually child support) from the POS XW.

          Ladies, please remember it’s not about the gender. There are a lot of caring, loving, intelligent male chumps out there. We didn’t betray the trust either, in our relationships. It was done to us, like it was to you. And a lot of us try our best to be good fathers, and want to continue to be given that chance. So 50/50 custody means a lot to us. I would’ve gone for 100% custody if I didn’t think it was going to screw up my son and my relationship w/my daughters. They don’t clearly see the selfishness of their mother. Maybe they never will.

          So guys like Epictetus and I have to be happy seeing our kids (who we love) half the time we used to. And we understand that our kids are going to have to figure out on their own what their mothers were willing to do to their families and to their relationship partners for their own purported personal gain.

          And Epictetus, I’d already told my son today before writing this that I’m making him one of the few foods he and his sisters did enjoy me making through the years. French toast. I bet you’ve got something like that you do for your kids too. Best wishes to you. Stay safe and healthy. That goes for the rest of CN, too.

      • Wombatmom, I’m 100% with you when you question how it can be good for the kids. I cannot believe that that sense of impermanence, ingrained from so early in life, can possibly yield well-grounded adults — especially when half that time is spent with someone who thinks nothing of watching hardcore porn on their phone like others check the news.
        When my parents separated, life got HARD. Poverty is cruel. But even if we were eating mayonnaise sandwiches without the bread (to steal a line from The Jeffersons), I stood on the unbreakable bedrock of my mom’s love and devotion. I could weather anything in life, with that. I can’t even consider the nightmare that would’ve been time ALONE with my father, away from my mother, without my skin crawling at what that level of unmoored defenselessness would have felt like.

        Now, all I can do is love my son so hard that — when the court says I have to send him to that same asshole that had zero compunction about blowing up his life when he was just an infant (!) — he can remember that warmth and hold on to it until he gets back home.

      • In Australia the court has to consider it, but it’s never usually found to be in the best interests of the child/ren.

  • “I thought you were ok with me getting my dick sucked by other women because you like Hilary Clinton.”

    No joke. He literally did mental gymnastics to justify multiple blow jobs with APs an hookers because he thought since I respect Hilary, I must be ok with serial cheating also

    • just when I think I’ve heard everything….this has got to be the winner. I’m sorry you even had to hear these words, and I’m grateful he said something so ludicrous that you could know he was a jerk.

    • How you managed not to hit him with a hammer astounds me. What a jerk.

  • My cheating FW wrote a list of his biggest regrets in life which I found shortly after moving out. Marriage was listed as #2 (his crappy real estate investments were number one). His girlfriend and he aren’t getting along now so of course he is now apologizing (ish). Here is part of his email regarding his view on the kids.

    “ I also wanted you to know that I NEVER regretted our marriage. I look back on how we were before we had kids and it was what I wanted life to be.”

    So….he doesn’t regret the ACT of marrying me, just the past 26 years of BEING married to me? His life isn’t the way he wanted it to be so he cheated? He is jealous of the kids? He regrets having kids? He’s been a sad sausage because when we had kids my universe didn’t revolve around his royal highness? He thought he could have that perfect life just the way he wanted it to be with the other woman? WTF.

    This idiot at one point said he was jealous of the attention I gave our dog.

    Yep. Narcissists can’t even tolerate attention you give their kids or dog. Good riddance!

    • I was actually envious of the affection ex gave our dog… none of it was coming my way. I was also envious of the way he joked with his EA partner, a family friend, because I wanted to have that pre-kid relaxed, fun relationship back. Glad all that’s far behind me.

      • Same here. It was really twisted. He’d come in and be hugely enthusiastic with the god, hugs and kisses. And then walk past me with a bare hello.

        • Skunkcabbage…..Yeppers! Even the bird & gerbils got more attention, affection and conversation than I did! Sickos!

  • My ex said he liked the ow, because she didn’t want her own kids. Unfortunately she got pregnant but, again unfortunately, drank alcohol, took drugs, smoked and had sti (s). She tryed to make my life a misery, but I didn’t allow her that power. I don’t know what happened to the pregnancy. But I feel for her kids.
    Its like she blames me, it saves her blaming herself.
    Me and ex split up nearly 7 years ago and she’s still bitter. Still drinking and taking drugs, always blaming someone else, won’t or can’t help herself.
    Tragic probably, but it’s not my problem

  • Male chumps typically get slammed for attention devoted to work more than kids, but it’s the same idea of adulting-as-displacing-the-Narc. With a similar rationale: I was told by my cheater ex-wife, “You were so independent, I didn’t think you needed all of me.” Yes, apparently I gave her permission to cheat by NOT demanding she do for me.

    Chumps, trust that whatever you did, and whoever you are, a cheater will use an exaggerated version of THAT to justify their selfish choices.

    • I was a working mother so I got called out for giving both the kids and my career too much attention. When I once lamented that he was spending too much time at work, however, I was made to feel guilty for complaining about his hard work to support the family. I ended up apologizing to him for expressing my desire to have him home more. He had a double standard for every occasion.

      • Yes, in 22 years there were countless apologies for adulting, or for being the person she chose to marry (diligent, independent, hoping to build something in life, etc.). I am a BIG believer in the power of sincere apologies to heal wounds caused by our worst moments, but I’m so glad I no longer live a life where I feel I owe a constant apology for who I am.

        • YES!!

          Holy cow this was so much me!!!

          …I mean, it was me before I discovered that it was not, in fact, my track record of 100% fidelity whose pretty significant self-made success allowed me to both rake in the $$$ and work from home to be an amazing, hands on Dad

          That “made” her need to take it up the ass from randos in motel rooms.

          Prior to discovery, I actually walked around wondering “maybe there IS something about me that’s made her withdraw for the last 9 months… and I’m just blind to see it”

          Everytime she cunted out on me or our kids, I said sorry and really meant it, and started coming up with ways we could all make our lives and our needs smaller to appease this angry monster who had taken over the person I once loved.

          But now the cat’s out of the bag, and he’s a LION…who happens to be looking at a lonely, wounded wildebeest who doesn’t understand “why we can’t just move on without any blame?”

          I’ve explained that we definitely COULD move on like that but blameless discussion is something married people do and, given that she willfully selected the Law of the Jungle instead, she can’t be unhappy with her entrails ripped out and left for the hyenas.

          For better and worse, as they say.

  • Trying to reason with someone who is that toxically narcissistic is like trying to play basketball on a baseball field. You don’t even really need a BS meter because everything that oozes out of the crap-slot he calls a mouth is total BS.

    He doesn’t actually *think* that bullshit. He’s just saying words. His only reason for speaking is to glorify his almighty self and justify his entitlement to do whatever the F he wants no matter who gets hurt. There’s no meaning in it, only self-idolatry.

    You can’t reason with hungry tigers, arsenic, stormy oceans, cancer, forest fires, or tornadoes either, and because we all recognize those things as obviously dangerous, we avoid them and we don’t even try to work things out.

    This guy is a walking predatory natural disaster. Once seen, can’t un-see. It’s time to take emergency action, grab your necessities, grab any vulnerable beings who need help escaping the danger, evacuate, and start gathering new resources and working on the post-disaster new normal.

  • While I was never told this overtly, my cheater had me gas lighted that he was depressed from aging. I dealt with the depressed sad sack who never wanted to do anything, go anywhere. or celebrate any holidays or birthdays. His only remaining happiness was flying to his home town every couple of months to hang out with his old high school buddies, while I ran the farm, our home and business. He had me believing that he was reliving his glory days as a high school jock. As the dutiful wife, I would get up at 3 AM in order to drive him to the airport so he could make the 6 AM flight out of Spokane.

    He never told me he had re-connected with an old girlfriend. He saved his best for her. I got shit.

  • Yeah, I also got “I thought you wouldn’t care”. Why on earth would he think that? I thought I had made it pretty clear that I did care when he had the emotional affair several years earlier. In fact, I think I flat out told him “I don’t want you to have an affair”.

    I also got “you were always busy with the kids”. Yeah, those kids that he wanted at least as much as I did. In fact, he wanted more. He was upset that I was only willing to have three instead of the four he wanted (I didn’t know about that until after the first one was born). Then he was upset with me for giving them too much attention when he was off flying, at broker dinners, out with friends or whatever all he was doing that involved not spending time with his family. They got my attention because they gave me theirs.

    The flip side is that I was always encouraging him to spend more time with the kids so that they could bond even if it included activities without me. I never resented a minute he spent with the kids. I saw it as a positive thing. I still do and wish he would give them more of his attention but Schmoopie isn’t willing to share. If she can ignore her five kids for him, the least he can do is neglect his own three for her. My ex did also say “I just don’t think we have the same priorities”. He got that one right at least.

  • “Surely, You Must Have Known”.

    Stop calling me Shirley! ????

    (It’s been a long day)

    • ‘you never let me put the bowl of fruit on the kitchen table. This never felt like my home’yup. Kitchen table to fit 6 had 7 sitting around so it was a little swamped to add a fruit bowl. That was it. That was all he could bring up. Apart from the ‘we should never have bought the house on the area we did, I never did anything around the house because it never felt like my home, you treat me like a slave rather than a partner(5 children born in 7 years one of whom has serious health issues for which all appointments, surgeries, etc I handled as I was a sahm who worked part time around the kids and his salary/career was important for him to maintain) lucky man with his gross salary increases that he kept for the schoomie and then unfortunately had to be unemployed for a year and a half until just after our separation agreement for signed. ‘Sod

  • “Other fathers don’t fight as much for their autistic child’s rights as you do”

  • The cheater’s morals, values & priorities don’t match mine. He had me fooled for many years. The truth is you were never a real match. Walk away from the entitled cheater who thinks that you exist for his needs only.

  • “You were so depressed after the baby stuff and you weren’t paying enough attention to me.”

    He was right about one thing… 5 years of infertility struggles and 3 miscarriages will make most people depressed and sad. Learning that your lifelong dream of being a mom is not possible, will take some time to get through. A normal person would support and comfort their spouse through that time, grieve those losses together. But my ex took that opportunity to get his knob polished by a student half his age.

    That one statement showed me everything I needed to know about his character. Found out about the affair on a Friday, met with a lawyer and filed on Wednesday. Buh bye!

  • The daily blog has just started and I am already aghast at how cowardly these cheaters are.

    It’s bad enough that they cheat, that they are entitled fuckwits, and that they blameshift in general, but to blame the chumps for LETTING them cheat is the end of the line.

    Too bad this virus is not selective for assholes.

    Speaking of the pandemic: one of my sons (who has mental health issues) lives with his dimwit father(the eternal shit sandwich). He told me sparkledick had gone out on Friday to get “a shot for his immunity”.

    This when all doctors’ appointments and non urgent medical issues have to be cancelled and we have to STAY HOME. Not to mention the fact that this appointment must be with a quack because there is no such thing as an immunity shot. And not to mention that if fuckwit really believes in this shit, why not take his dear son to protect him too? Selfish bastard.

    Well it turns out the shot was really …. testosterone. The world is coming apart and fuckwit is worried about his limp dick.

    My colleagues tell me that they see lots of young guys come in to take care of their flacid, rag like muscles and hypogonadism after they took testosterone…. snigger snigger snigger

    • Clearwaters, just thinking on the hoof here, if he got his limp dick taken care of but does indeed catch the virus and die how on earth will they close the coffin lid?

      • aaaagshshhsstttttsososhjhh Listen, I am almost breaking no contact to ask him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • I have never literally LOLed at anything here when others seem to do it all the time.

        Until now.

        I love it!


  • Thanks all for your comments. I know I need to get out. This is just a very small sample of the shining turds he deposits from his mouth. I found out after Christmas. He wants to “work things out” and helpfully gave me a list of things I needed to work on in the relationship. I was so shocked I told him to hold the thought whilst I got pen and paper to write it all down. I look at it often to keep me on the path of sanity. At the time I had a job that didn’t have regular income. I’ve been to MC just to buy time to get things in order – thankfully I found CL/CN before I went so had great delight in correcting the use of “needs” to “wants” throughout. I’ve now got a job, done the financials, seen a lawyer etc. I’ve got a record of his texts so I know he is still lying to me about how long it’s been going on and the extent of what he got up to. He doesn’t know that I know. The only thing that’s slowed me down is my son. The thought of shared custody when I’ve effectively been a single parent scares me. It wouldn’t be fair on my son. I know my son wouldn’t want it but at that age his views are not taken into account despite the harm that ignoring their view would have. Then of course we are in now in Coronavirus lockdown so isolated with the idiot and not able to move out. At least he’s gone into “perfect parent” (I.e: doing some parenting) since I found out. I should be glad of that but its confused the hell out of my son and I’m worried it will give him greater custody arguments.

    • Your son will thrive once you are free and start gaining a life. My DD is 5 now and has adapted to having two houses, but she sees her mother (Me) living again instead of just surviving.

      It’s unfair to your son to model a pretend family and an empty shell of a life. There is a whole big beautiful world out there and he’ll learn about it through you as you LIVE in it again.

      ((((BIGHUGS)))) you got this.

    • It is unlikely he TRULY will want or step up and be a parent 50% of the time. This is where documentation helps later to change custody and child support (THAT is what he loves the most – “his momey”) to align with what he does.

      Plus 50% of the time with a Sane Parent at his young age can make a world of difference. Also pursue family therapy for you and your son. FW can get his own.

      As your son grows up he will get more say over how much time dad gets with him. That may also be tricky but at least he has a solid foundation (you) even if he wobbles.

      Good luck! You got this!

      • Listen to No Shit Cupcakes! In some states, if you can legally prove that you have done the majority of parenting throughout your child’s life, you MIGHT be able to avoid the 50/50 split & get more custody.
        You will need lots of documentation. I’d suggest you find out exactly what you need & how to get it from an attorney NOW. Don’t wait until you file. Retain an attorney now, or as soon as you can, without letting yoir husband know. If you’re lucky enough to find a decent attorney, they can assist you in what ducks to line up. What we think will be important in court isn’t always the case.

    • MommyGuilt,

      You’re so smart in the way you’re going about getting out, by getting you’re ducks in a row first. Big back pat to you for not confronting him yet with all you know. That’s so very hard to do. One of the biggest the biggest things I did that hurt me & my divorce settlement/custody the most was confronting him immediately with each new thing I’d find out (like the fact he had also been cheating with men & was on numerous gay & bi sites besides straight dating sites).

      Not immediately confronting them in your anger, hurt, etc is so difficult. Staying long enough to line up your ducks has to be even harder. You are one mighty woman! Unfortunately, I didn’t find CN until years after my divorce & unknowingly did many things that hurt me & my kids in the end. Consider yourself very lucky to have found CN before your divorce.

    • Take your time, you got this.

      As long as you are truly committed to ending it, using the time to prepare for the possibility of a battle is very wise.

      Just remember they frequently fold once you make it clear that you’re done. Sudden Good Parent mode shuts off like a light and they run once confronted with professionals whose job it is to NOT take their word on all of the BS.

      Good luck and keep posting here…we love you and your son and can’t wait to see you both set free!

  • “You had to have known, but you never stopped me!”
    Then why did you create cover stories, enlist the aid of others and change jobs to continue your affairs? You did because you lack adult emotional skills.

  • Yep, heard the same exact idiotic comment. Then it turned into me being too traditional. Then I asked if he wanted an open relationship…he said no. Every time I tried to talk about it, the game changed. He told all of his friends and the coworker he was cheating with that we were in an open relationship. Surprise to me! They all acted like it was funny, as I read text messages that indicated as such. Felt like a million knives in the back. No, it wasn’t funny, it was the cruelest destruction of a long time relationship. Now I look at them all in disgust. Shallow to the highest degree.

  • I also had dipshit the wonder ass blame our then 2-year old daughter for us ‘growing apart’. He also blamed me for talking to my parents too much about child-raising questions instead of talking to him, even though we were both new parents with our first child. Somehow he knew more than my parents with 30 years of experience.

    Now he knows more than the CDC, doctors, governors, etc. about what’s best for DD during this COVID-19 situation. The entitled sense of self-importance never goes away, it just changes focus.

    • Gentlechump, I chuckle to think how the AP/now wife has to deal with ExH in these days of quarantine. His knee-jerk response to anything was always “You can’t tell me what to do.” Ha ha ha. Thank god he’s not my problem anymore. And congrats for jettisoning your know-it-all ex!

      • My STBX is stuck in Vienna with his copartner and baby. I don’t usually indulge in schadenfreude but I will now. I am sure this will end up a nightmare for both of them. When he decided to work things out with me, he said schmoopie was too annoying for the long run. Such a weak justification to stick with a 20 year relationship that I finally ended it. But it does give me a bit of insight into how he is going to deal with being locked up with her in a flat that drives him insane (he also told me that and how he would like to fix it up “for his baby.”) Good ridance.

  • I got complete denial, a request to never contact her again, followed by a temporary restraining order and she never followed up on by not showing up to court. Worst thing I called her after DDay was “The Devil”.

  • Mine figured it was ok to cheat because “you take too long grocery shopping on a Saturday”. I wish I was making this up!

    • I didn’t provide turndown service at bedtime like a good hotel would. Plus I cooked too many gourmet meals while he played candy crush and ignored out daughter.

  • On the rare occasion he did go out (he didn’t need to, most of his betrayal took place during office hours anyway), allegedly with “the boys” (turns out “not only”), he would ANNOYINGLY ask me for “permission”. It was really uncomfortable, because nowhere ever had I given him any indication that I would disapprove of something so simple and innocent. On the contrary, I let him very free. I never got why he needed to make me into “mommy”, before understanding Narcissism. Now I know it was possibly so in his mind he’d get “permission” to do anything he wanted, which he did.

    • Quetzal, my theory is that many disfunctional first marriages are the places where we work out (and emulate) our formative chilhood experiences. I too couldn’t understand why after having given birth I was suddenly turned into “mommy” for him as well as for our infant. I hate to generalize here, as I know that there are many, many normal and functional Catholics in the world, but my ex very definitely has deep unresolved issues with not only the nuns who smacked him around and who made him stand in a garbage can in front of the classroom but also with the priests he served at the altar who were later convicted of sexual abuse.

      No wonder I have trust issues. ExH #1slept around with other men, ExH #2 turned out to be a porn-addicted weirdo with very, very strange sexual fantasies (that were disclosed only after the marriage contract was signed).

  • Wow, I didn’t even realize someone else was married to the same guy! MommyGuilt, my ex used to say this EXACT SAME THING, almost word for word. The mental gymnastics needed to decide that we were all in on it together were just mind-boggling. He even insisted that our pastor knew about his tax fraud and approved it. I asked him why he thought this, and he said because one time someone mentioned tax fraud, and the pastor looked at him and smiled. From that, he extrapolated that the pastor knew and approved what he was doing secretly that even I didn’t know about. He is STILL telling everyone that I was a full party to his cheating and stealing, and that I only divorced him for public appearance.

    There was one time that he told the truth. He was insisting that he thought I knew about his stealing, and I said, “Then why did you lie to me about it? If you were sure that I knew, then why did you lie to me when I asked you why the tax documents didn’t match your income?” He said, “Because if you knew about it, you would have made me stop!”

    Yeah, that was a brief moment in time that the truth escaped his lips: “If I you knew about it, you would have made me stop.”

  • She said (I know what it’s like to be dead……) “I need to grow up and get beyond my fears by going to NYC with my girlfriends, learn to travel alone, etc.”

    I said “sounds like a great idea”

    Truth…..she went by herself to a hotel in PA, banged my cousin who had been talking to her on FB, destroyed our marriage and family until the end of time or when covid kills us all…f**K that bitch.

  • It’s all such bullshit. In couple therapy after Affair #1, the Ex claimed he thought I’d be fine w/ his fucking around, since I knew people who were swingers and seemed fine w/ them. Fortunately I didn’t need to point out that in couples that swing, EVERYBODY knows what’s happening and agrees to it; the therapist did.

    Aaaaalllll bullshit. And they totally make this crap up after they get caught. Before that, it doesn’t even cross their minds whether we’d be ok w/ what they are doing. Not on their radar.

  • After being caught the first time 12 years earlier, he didn’t go out with co-workers to the bar after work or anything else suspicious. Apparently instead, he ended up calling in sick or taking vacation time to go cheat (out of town until the discard). Plus, he told me he was mandated to continue working every weekend as well. Turns out he wasn’t always & used that time to cheat too. Always left & came h ok me the exact same time as if he went to work. Yet, after Dday2 (walk out/discard) he actually said that I should have known. Wtf?!?!

  • Well, at least the “you were fine with it and had another 5-year-old man/son in the picture” is clear, and clearly fucked-up. There’s no reasoning with that! Unfortunately, a lot of us get this mindfuck, but much more subtly, and we have to squint so hard to see it that we end up needing glasses, or worse. It’s harder to laugh at your partner’s mental gymnastics when they’re so sad sausage all the time, TRYING to remember that you’re a real person who deserves respect, but just not quite getting there.

    I have a dump of texts between my STBX and her most recent AP (we’re all women), and here was STBX’s rationalization when the AP was freaking out that I might have discovered their affair: “If LezChump found out, I’d try to make her understand that my connection with you is meeting needs that aren’t being met and that I still love her and our family and want to preserve the life we have built together. I can’t predict how she’d react, but I don’t think she’d be especially surprised.” So there you have it: even if I didn’t know (and she took many pains to hide it from me!), I should have known, and should have been okay with it if/when I knew.

    Later, after STBX finally revealed the affair to me, she tried to persuade me to accept it as a polyamorous thing, since we have a fair number of LGBTQ friends in open relationships of one kind or another. (I pointed out that real poly relationships are negotiated ahead of time, and I wasn’t going to accept this one. She looked wounded.) She also said more explicitly that she often thought that I knew about the affair but was choosing not to say anything about it. Her particular toxic brew includes this serious problem with thinking that other people should be able to read her mind in the absence of direct communication, and that she can read others’. It’s a consequence of low boundaries, in her case: she really doesn’t have much sense of where she begins and others end.

    And so it’s all really about the cheaters, in the end. They lack sufficient empathy, for whatever reason, to see our perspective as distinct from theirs. We are merely instrumental, and they’ll focus on whatever they need to – our personal flaws, extenuating circumstances – to get what they want. Tellingly, when STBX broke it off with AP #2, she said that she had to, because I was either going to have a nervous breakdown or leave her. But that doesn’t show true caring for me: either way, I would not have been of use to STBX any longer. It took the longest time for me to read between those lines and understand.

    But now I’m sitting here in my new apartment, that I managed to move into last Friday, just before everything shut down for Covid-19! I read Carmen Maria Machado’s “In the Dream House” in a single sitting yesterday – a devastating memoir of emotional abuse, including infidelity/pretending to be poly, written in a bunch of different styles (including Choose Your Own Adventure). I definitely recommend it to all my fellow chumps, esp. queer ones – since this memoir happens to focus on a relationship between two women, though the dynamics are all the same. As Machado herself points out, she is sadly not unique or special in her experience of abuse.

  • Interesting about the mind-reading. Ex was convinced he was fluent in body-language and was super-aware of others, and talked about personal energy and auras, I’m pretty sure it was all about taking power in a relationship. He also used to think that he didn’t have to keep in contact with old friends, they would understand and still be there for him.

  • One queer woman equivalent of being told it’s my fault because of the childcare:

    “You’re always sleeping early [at a reasonable hour because I have health conditions and a full time job] so it’s your fault I had to sleep with others.”

    “You didn’t go to the party [with her horrible racist and sexist friends] so I got lonely and needed to sleep with him.”

    “You were working on a major deadline when I needed sex so it’s your fault.”

    “You’re so controlling by not letting me continue with my various affair partners so I had to cheat on you.”

    “It’s your fault because you told our mutual friend I lied to her to try to sleep with her when you promised me you would not tell her!” I made no such promise and that mutual friend is also no contact with my ex and is great friends with me.

    I could go on forever. Needless to say the queer woman blameshitings in this case aren’t much different.

    • Yep. I think one thing that’s different, and which is pointed out by Machado in “In the Dream House” and some other descriptions of lesbian abuse I’ve seen, is that there’s a fantasy that same-gender relationships in particular just inherently have no power imbalances – which of course is not true in practice. There’s also a notion that lesbians process things so much and are in touch with their feelings. The ironic thing is that my STBX and I *did* process a lot, and I thought we were being open with one another, though also mindful of not bringing up stuff that was unnecessarily painful. (We all have to choose our battles in relationships, you know? It can’t be a constant grind of processing.) Well, it turns out that’s what *I* was doing, while STBX was stewing in her own juices and not sharing any of it. Again, with the mind-reading: it was my fault, evidently, that I didn’t notice she was stewing in her own juices. 🙁

      All best to you, fellow Rainbow Chump!

  • How does he carry the weight of all that bullshit around in his head?” This made me laugh.

    Defining ‘it’ or what little you know of the ‘it’ is so compartmentalized ‘it’ is reduced to a simple two letter vowel consonant word.

    Get over ‘it’; three simple words are said in the aftermath. My use of the word? You’re stuck with it; no returns.

  • In hindsight-and after reading so many CN responses, I’ve given up any skein untangling relative to Anything that issued from xw’s mouth.
    The truth is not in them. Never was.

    In those fleeting moments now, when I hear an audio playback in my head from our ‘Why!? discussions’ I’m mindful to hit the Stop ???? button as soon as I recognize it’s occurring.

    It’s pointless to waste any time arguing with a ghost.

  • Once I asked my ex for permission to run for the school board. She said no because she didn’t think I should give up time away from our family so I didn’t run. She never asked me for permission to have an affair so I never had the opportunity to say yes or no nor to tell her I thought it might take time away from our family. They really do suck!

  • This one hit me today. Whike i was busting my a** running an international program travelling all throughout Europe and the US, my f*** wit was doinkibg his new found love. I was paying all the bills including 2 mortgages, managing the whole enterprise, well he was camped out at our beach house supposedly remodeling at to get ready for my retirement which was planned for 6 months hence. instead he was not doing the work ( he hadn’t worked for 4 years) I supported him the whole time. his excuse was I made him feel like a man Child cuz I made all the money and supported him. So so annoying. Just brings it all back. Dickhead I am so glad he’s gone. hugs

    • Isn’t that interesting. Our retirement plan was to sell our house, move aboard our sailboat and sail the world. Mr. Sparkly Pants retired a year before me, planning, he said, to make sure our boat was ready for us to live aboard. We had discussed extensively what exactly “ready” meant: we weren’t camping out; this would be our home. Comfortable bed, 100 gallon water tanks, water heater, a three burner stove with an oven, replacing the setee cushions, refinishing or replacing the cabin sole (floor) and fully functional sailing systems and engine.

      Our house sold, closing on December 30, and we moved aboard the boat. The gas stove was off-line and he didn’t know how to fix it; had never even looked into it because he was so sure I hadn’t been serious when I said I wanted the stove that came with the boat to actually work. The hot water heater didn’t work, which wasn’t that much of a problem because the water tanks had been leaking and he had removed, but not replaced them. The only thing that WAS as he had represented it was the comfortable bed, and that only because I had researched it, ordered it, paid for it and taken delivery.

      There we were, living on that boat in the middle of a Virginia winter with no heating system, no cook stove, no water tanks, broken halyards (so we couldn’t sail) and a wonky engine. (Turns out it had been so long since he started the engine the diesel was full of chunks.) So all of the days he was “sailing with the guys” or “working on the boat” — all lies. He couldn’t have sailed with no way to raise the sails and he couldn’t have used the engine unless he had cleaned or replaced all the diesel. Strangely, it took me nearly two more years to find out he’d been cheating. (The hopium was strong with this one.)

      He said he thought it was unfair for me to expect him to do the work when we were both going to be living on the boat. I told him that’s why I had been supporting him, doing all the house-work, doing all of the adulting — because he was going to be working on the boat. That was what we had agreed to.

      “I never meant that,” he said. “I only said that to shut you up.”

      So I am just supposed to assume he doesn’t mean anything he says?

      I am so glad to be divorced and NOT retired and sheltering in place with that fuck wit. I had to go back to work, and I’ll be on the front lines of the COVID-19 pandemic, but at least I am fuck-wit free!

      • Says so much that facing an invisible and potentially deadly virus everyday for an indeterminate future is preferable and more manageable than marriage to a deceptive and unfaithful spouse.

  • This is exactly what my ex did. He told everyone it was mutual and we “grew apart”. That is how he justifies cheating (which he never admitted to). I beat myself for a long time because I knew I was not being treated well but never suspected he was cheating even though now I realize there were red flags. I finally forgave myself and accepted that it was on him not me. The hardest part is hearing him lie to our daughter.

    • One day your daughter will tell him, “Oh bullshit, Daddy!” Then he will be all butt-hurt and accuse you of turning her against him.

    • My opinion is you tell your daughter the truth. I just spoke with someone who wasn’t told the truth about her parents divorced as a child- her mom was the cheater – and as she was growing up she had a lot of resentment towards her dad and now that she knows she wishes she could take that back and resents not being told the truth. Lies or covering the truth hurt more in the end I believe.

    • We’ve discussed this issue several times on this forum. Don’t gaslight you as well your daughter. You don’t want your daughter to live in constant anxiety in her relationship, waiting and wondering whether she’s ‘growing apart’ from her partner and is about to be discarded, or when the breakup is just ‘going to happen’. There’s a very good reason why you marriage broke up. Also, this is your opportunity to explain to your daughter that yes, people sometimes do fall in love with somebody else but the honest people tell this to their partner and then pursue the new relationship.

      • Persephone my daughter is an adult and I told her the truth from the beginning. I also said exactly your comment regarding his honesty. My ex just continues to deny and spin the truth. She has to decide what she wants to believe. I spoke the truth.

  • Good God! It is creepy how relatable so many of the posts are!

  • The fact that they even make these statements and rationalizations shows them for what they are. Manipulative bullies.

  • Hello all,

    I never got the “I thought you were ok w/it.” I only got my FWXW to admit that it wasn’t just me as the reason she was running away from our family. It was the kids. “Don’t you ever tell them (the kids) this, but between you and them always wanting and needing me…” Right. Because I wanted to see more of you, connect better w/you after almost 25 years of marriage, and of course, realizing now that I was dealing w/about two years of emotional and mental withdrawal from our marriage and me on her part (I just didn’t know it then, only that something was wrong. Special torture!).

    Anyway, as usual I’m late to the party. I hope anyone reading this is in good health, and not suffering from Covid-19. That goes as well for any of your friends and family. Lots of positive thoughts, love and hugs to y’all. Wishing you all the best, and that meh might be in your close future.

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