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UBT: Affair Sex in the Marital Bed Is Wrong?

Dear Chump Lady,

I received this email from my ex after I confronted him about having sex with “La Pute” in our home. We were married for 35 years, and I had no idea that he was missing his moral compass. I am stumped. What does one say to this?

SuzyQ

From: Cheater
Subject: Re: Sex in the marital bed — There some things that one doesn’t do. Article from the NY Times.
To: Chump

This is a serious question: I now understand now that society views adulterous sex in the marital bed as being an enormous sin, so enormous as to be unthinkable, and I now understand why you feel the way you do.

My question: where is this taught, where does one learn this fact growing up? To be honest, I didn’t understand or appreciate that illicit sex in our bed was any worse than illicit sex–period. I guess what I’m saying is that nowhere in my upbringing was there any reference to the subject, and, that being the case, I lacked any appreciation for the magnitude of my offense against you. But how would I know? How did you and 90% of the American public learn this? It had to have been taught somewhere, but where?

Dear SuzyQ,

Oh for fuck’s sake. He missed the memo?

This is what comes from sending self-help articles to fuckwits. (Although in my opinion, the person who wrote that NYT piece seemed more interested in the salacious details of where Schmoopies choose to screw than she did the moral outrage about it.)

The Universal Bullshit Translator has been in a bit of a funk, so I threw this steaming pile of feigned ignorance at it.

To: Chump

This is a serious question:

This is not serious. I just miss fucking with your head.

I now understand now that society views adulterous sex in the marital bed as being an enormous sin, so enormous as to be unthinkable, and I now understand why you feel the way you do.

Thanks to a nine-year-old newspaper article I have moral clarity where I used to have a hard dick and opportunism. The scales have fallen from my eyes, the crabs from my pubic hair, and now I see.

Were it not for this enlightening piece of journalism, I would never understand why you feel the way you do. A divorce summons couldn’t explain it to me, several thousands of years of religious prohibitions, nor decades of life on this planet. Fucking other people in our shared bed is wrong! Thank you, Society. Please weigh in on other fuzzy moral matters like incest, child pornography, and lynching.

#Ineedaprimer

My question: where is this taught, where does one learn this fact growing up?

At Wizard Academy. Apparently, you didn’t get your flying owl with the inscribed parchment that said, “DON’T FUCK STRANGE IN THE MARITAL BED.”

To be honest, I didn’t understand or appreciate that illicit sex in our bed was any worse than illicit sex–period.

I mean, grade me on a curve. It wasn’t your sister. The mattress was old. The sheets were poly/cotton.

#bitchcookie

I guess what I’m saying is that nowhere in my upbringing was there any reference to the subject, and, that being the case, I lacked any appreciation for the magnitude of my offense against you.

Blame my parents. Blame reference materials. Blame indexing. How could anyone find anything on this subject, Suzy? I grew up with the card catalog system! Wooden boxes with INDEX CARDS. It was not me who sinned, it was the Dewey decimal system.

But how would I know?

Moral education is filed with the prefix 170, see also 250, Religious Ethics, 234 Salvation and Grace, and 390 Etiquette.

How did you and 90% of the American public learn this? It had to have been taught somewhere, but where?

The UBT regrets that you missed your owl-a-gram and the finer points of library science. Thank goodness the New York Times has brought you up to speed.

***

I am stumped. What does one say to this?

Nothing. No contact. Stop tilting at fuckwits.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Schmoopies who do this kind of thing are extra nasty on top of already being nasty.

    Nobody ever told me not to fuck my boyfriend’s brother, yet somehow I still know it’s a no go and that screwing around with your parent’s family members adds another layer of shitty to something already shitty.

    Geez….what a loser.

    Ignore him.

    • Speaking of which, my XW’s sister *did* have an affair with her own brother-in-law. Who lived across the landing from her. And who turned out to have another family (with kids) the next town over. Meanwhile XW’s sister’s husband owed a lot of money to the mob and ended up working off his debt by picking up envelopes of bribe money from local politicians, while running real-estate scams on the side.

      It took me years to figure out how dysfunctional her family is – partly because I was just young and naive, but partly because of the language and cultural barriers.

    • Just ignore the trash 37 1/2 years with a narcissist! My beautiful baby is expecting a Daughter in December and he’s trying to be the great Grandad. He’s trash and always will be. .

    • 🤣🤣we used to laugh when we got together with ex’s family. His 2 younger brothers had dated the same girl( at different times)…… we joked that she was coming for ex next. Like that was funny or acceptable. Sigh…….

  • He’s not asking the question seriously, he’s playing with SuzyQ, like a cat plays with its prey.

    He’s being sarcastic. What he’s basically saying is “so what? I don’t care. Actually, I do care, I love the fact that I violated your boundaries, and now I get to torment you with it all over again by playing dumb.”

    No contact, no contact, no contact.

    • Up-vote. That’s exactly what I thought, too. He sounds a little too “shocked” to learn that illicit sex in the marital bed is bad. Totally feigning ignorance about something rather common sense – just to relive the thrill of the hurt. Should not be dignified with a response of any kind.

    • Yup. Feigning dumb to play the mindfuck game. I work with someone like this. You can tell them a thousand times what to do and how to do it properly and when they fuck it up they tell the boss “but no one told me’. Fuck off with that fucking bullshit. No one believes those people and everyone hates them.

      • Dear CN, You are absolutely correct. The asshole loves mind-fuck games. He knows the rules, but it is more fun to make up this bullshit in in hopes of a big response.

  • Well, I ended up chucking the marital bed. I have no idea if he was fucking her In it or not, but I’d rather have the piece of mind to sleep in a bed that has no history.

    • I made the adulterer take it with him and got myself a new bed. A marital bed from a broken marriage is bad luck. Let him and OW reap that bad luck in that jinxed marital bed together since they destroyed two marriages.

      • I agree…I let her have our bed (that she and the ow slept in) and i took the guest room bed…and replaced the mattress. Hope it gives them lots of bad luck 🙂 I have a new life now, a new partner and she is living with the woman with whom she ended our 23 year life together. Despite the pain, I am much happier today–happy and no longer emotionally abused.

      • Yep, I had a feeling the marital bed may have become compromised when I found out he lied about his whereabouts one weekend when I was out of town. I listed it for free on Craigslist (had no idea how many people would be interested in an old stained mattress. Now I’m enjoying my new Casper bed.

    • I did the same thing. I actually slept on a trundle mattress on the floor when I moved out happily leaving the marital bed behind.

      • My ex actually wanted that mattress where he had sex with his mistress (and didn’t change the damn sheets!). That he wanted it is weird. I happily let him have it.

        I did keep the sectional where they’d also had sex, but I try to put that out of my mind. Ugh.

        • My ex kept marital bed and him and AP slept on it same sheets, pillows, comforter. From the time police advised me to leave. They were still on it 18 months later after divorce finalized. He’s got a new GF sure she’s sleeping on same bed with same bedding. He’s still in marital house with all our marital stuff. These people are fucked up!

        • sage it hard, like every day for 7 days, and then change the coverings ~ perhaps reupholster and that will help x

    • I made him take the mattress and all the bedding after I found the photos he took of himself on it humping a pillow with a pair of pants on it she had modelled and sent him pics of. So fucking gross. I don’t even think they had sex but that was enough for me. I threw the mattress out the door and dragged it through the yard full of dog shit and put it in the driveway for him. Pretty sure he’s sleeping on it on the floor of his buddy’s basement. “I wasn’t happy in our relationship” he said. Happy now? lol

    • In Argentine slang there’s also the word “tilinga” that has a very long, elaborate and surgical definition. Young linguistic rebels will sometimes masculinize it because lunfardo tends to be too misogynistic to be mod or cool. There are a few modern tango songs with that word in the title.

  • He is fishing, pure and simple. Don’t rise to the bait …. because that’s what he and his over inflated ego wants.

    Sometimes nothing says “f*ck you” like saying nothing.

  • Oh SuzyQ – he’s simply showing his true colors and jerking you around. Print it out, give it to your lawyer, shake your head and keep on moving towards Mehdom.

    Don’t reply. Don’t bother. He just wants attention and he doesn’t deserve any from you that doesn’t directly pertain to the divorce.

  • This is a nasty example of sarcasm. He’s taking a shames piss out of her.

    Ignore and no contact.

    • Yeah, the jerking around on this one is indecent.
      They do teach them “not to play with their food”, so he definitely should know better!

  • I think Schmoopies love to scent mark their territory; like a feral cat in heat. I think it gives them a sense of power and control that they are able to “make” the cheater do something that the world largely views as disrespectful ( and this is in a world rife with cheater apologists who forgive most cheater transgressions).

    Can you imagine schmoopies reaction if it was done to them? Hissing and spitting, pure vitriol.

    Burn the bed, preferably with the cheater in it.

  • Pure Costanza.
    The infamous Seinfeld Show episode when George Costanza has sex on his desk with the office cleaning lady,
    “Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing is frowned upon… you know, cause I’ve worked in a lot of offices, and I tell you, people do that all the time…”
    Just like George’s boss said, “You’re fired!”

  • It’s a classic cheater move to try to minimize what the cheater did by contrasting it with something—ANYTHING—that’s worse. Say committing adultery . . . while drowning kittens. For my cheating ex-wife it was having affair sex . . . on the same day she had sex with me (she said she would NEVER do that—ha!). For this guy, it’s having sex in the marital bed . . . KNOWING that made it worse. Yeah, no. Not buying it in a million years. It’s beyond bitch cookie: It’s bastard cracker material.

  • Didn’t get the memo?
    … weren’t you MARRIED?
    The memo was in the form of a legally-binding document that you signed because you were SO SERIOUS ABOUT NOT FUCKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE YOU CHOSE TO GET THE GOVERNMENT INVOLVED

  • “I now understand now that society views adulterous sex in the marital bed as being an enormous sin, so enormous as to be unthinkable, and I now understand why you feel the way you do.“

    He now understands now that fucking the OW now in the marital bed now is offensive now.

    My question: where is this taught, where does one learn this fact growing up”

    Same place everyone else learns to have a moral compass and not be an actual piece of shit.

    “To be honest, I didn’t understand or appreciate that illicit sex in our bed was any worse than illicit sex–period.“

    So you DO understand illicit sex is wrong, you just don’t care.

    “I guess what I’m saying is that nowhere in my upbringing was there any reference to the subject, and, that being the case, I lacked any appreciation for the magnitude of my offense against you.“

    It’s not a fucking class, asshole. But if you’re looking for one, try ETHICS.

    “But how would I know?“

    He MUST stop Christmas from coming! But HOW?!

    “How did you and 90% of the American public learn this? It had to have been taught somewhere, but where?“

    He doesn’t know where 90% of the rest of the population of America is! Where are they? Are they in the woods? Did they have a party in the woods? AND THEY DIDNT INVITE HIM??

    Jesus fuck this is worse than just pretending it was an accident…

    • “How did you and 90% of the American public learn this? It had to have been taught somewhere, but where?“

      His question ought to be, “What’s wrong with me that unlike 9 out of 10 people I failed to learn this lesson?”

    • Great post. I also think he’s saying, “I’m more advanced than the 90% of society that has these false, arbitrary rules against loving the one you’re with wherever the hell you please. I’m more evolved!”

  • Did he know it was wrong, like having an affair to begin with was wrong? Who knows with these crappy people.

    Dr. Cheaterpants would spend hours talking to me about his interpersonal relationships with coworkers, bosses, friends, family, our kids’ other parents, folks that did his same hobby. He simply had no emotional intelligence and I didn’t realize he was using me for it. He was having significant issues at work and one day asked me ‘do that thing you do where you look at all sides of an issue from everyone’s viewpoint’. I just didn’t know at the time his lack of empathy and huge amount of entitlement and self centeredness was such a hinderence to him even he knew it.

    Maybe he didn’t know screwing in your marital bed was just so awful because he has absolutely no empathy. And no one taught him that because it’s not really teachable. Sympathy, maybe.

    • Right. They’re clueless disordered subhuman fucks and too much time was wasted on trying to humanize them.

  • Wow, the level of trolling out of this one…

    There’s a nugget of truth in there: “I didn’t know illicit sex in our bed was any different than illicit sex”.
    He’s got a point there… He knew exactly what he was doing.

    Anti-social. Personality. Disorder.

    • Yes, it’s beyond sarcastic. It’s cruel and sociopathic.

      By pretending to ask a sincere question, he is deliberately reminding her of what he did. This isn’t just disrespectful: it is cruel.

  • (music by George Michael, lyrics by Lover of La Pute)

    I feel so confused
    Now I understand the reason you feel abused
    How was I to know? There was no memo
    If there is a class for this
    Then I would surely go

    I never would have ever guessed
    Rules for decency are hidden
    Didn’t know it at the time
    There wasn’t any clue . . .

    Should’ve known better than to use our bed
    But no one told me that’s forbidden
    So I’m gonna read the New York Times
    So I’ll know what to do

    • I knew there was a song from Ux forming as I wrote my own reply!!!

      “Was she in my cars?”

      “I asked her and she said no.”

      Right. Of course. Makes total sense.

      She is OK f**king my husband but drew the line at riding in my cars.

      Yep.

      She has standards. Limits. Boundaries.

      O………K……..

      I have wondered what to do with my cars. I have smudged them. I billed him for the most expensive detail jobs I could find. At this point the spiritual message is KEEP, so I will do that unless I hear otherwise.

      I am 99% sure he bought the Dodge Ram 8,000,000 specifically as a mobile hotel room, using the 2014 tax credit for truck purchases for your business as a perfect
      cover story. Interestingly, I always HATED that truck and could not explain why. I now call it the Dodge Ram Hookup truck.

      I am a full-time parent so I don’t think anyone was ever in the bed, but I wouldn’t assume anything because this is SOP from the Duper’s Delight playbook. It may have been extra thrilling in my case because of the minimal opportunities.

      I feel deep deep sympathy for anyone who has had their home defiled by cheating sociopathic predators and can’t afford to move or replace furnishings. I will say I have gotten a lot of really cool things at thrift stores over the years, including an antique Persian rug for 12.00 that appraised for 5000.00. (I thought it was old and cool…..they just saw old….kind of like how a cheater appraises things….)
      So if you have to get rid of a spouse or a home or things have been defiled, I believe they WILL be replaced by BETTER.
      Check out thrift stores and consignment shops when you can.

      Ignorance of the law is no defense, anyway. I think Mr. CL can verify that?

      • Absolutely. Also, not only *not* a defense, but I’d say an indictment as well. If you have to explain basic principles of human decency to someone, they are not available for significant emotional relationships, romantic or otherwise.

        We also get no “memos” about the prohibitions of murder, child molesting, and arson. Who wants to worry about whether someone in your life “gets” those mysterious concepts as well? Might as well marry a rabid hyena.

    • UX, Ah, I see you’ve already spoofed so please forgive my turf traipse! I was humming this in my head yesterday but got too busy to post it or read the entire thread. Mine looks a bit sad in comparison but here goes…

      Oopsy (music by the Cranberries, lyrics by Fuckwit)

      See how my head bobs slowly
      I have been awakened
      If my denial seems infantile
      There is a chance I’m faking

      But you see how, to me,
      A mere ethical baby
      In our bed, in our bed, I was shtupping
      But I could not conceive
      The equiv-a-lency
      That to you, in our bed, I was pooping

      In our bed, in our bed
      Oopsy, poopsy, oopsy-si-si
      What’s in our bed? While we were wed
      Oopsy, poopsy, oopsy-si-si
      Goo goo goo goo
      Goo goo goo goo
      Goo goo goo goo
      Goo goo ya

      So clean my crap and let me nap
      Cause I like cake and bimbos
      My childlike heart disdains
      This Serta Sleeper ethos

      But you see, that, to me
      It’s just false piety
      That our bed, that our bed, seems so sacred
      Because I, as a tween, when not peeing the sheets
      In my bed, in my bed, masturbated

      In our bed, in our bed,
      Oopsy, poopsy, oopsy-si-si
      What’s in our bed? Her name’s Offred
      Oopsy, poopsy, oopsy-si-si
      Goo goo goo goo
      Goo goo goo goo
      Goo goo goo goo
      Goo goo ya

  • Personally I think they want to be caught. Or he thinks he’s some sort of sex god, ow would have told him that. Or if you really loved me, you would forgive me. Trying to embarrass you in front of neighbours. They want you to dump them.
    Ex’s ow, or one of them, still hangs around looking for the wonder of my ex. You would have thought having sti would have stopped you hanging around but no, still hangs around.
    Anyone who thinks my ex is a catch seriously needs help.
    I have a feeling she’s on this website
    She asked me to feel sorry for her, didn’t stop her spending my money.
    Unfortunately she reminds me of my mother which is saying something.
    No I didn’t forgive the ow, I don’t give her any headspace.
    She’s not worth it.

    • The Histrionic / Borderline ones may want to be caught.
      The Antisocial ones, definitely do not. It spoils the game and they loooooove their multiverse!

      Aren’t they the Kings of Everything and its Opposite?

  • My face hurts from laughing. Wizard Academy?

    But when I stop laughing, I have a study request for the social science researchers and grad students who lurk here scrounging up study ideas:

    What the fuck is it with cheaters’ and poachers’ drive to– as one commenter here put it– “turf grab”? Meaning desecrate and smear bodily fluids all over places and things that might have special meaning or hold important memories to a spouse and the cheater’s children, as if to desecrate the memories themselves?

    A lot of these gestures carry considerable extra risk and involve effort so it seems to go beyond mere laziness or a lack of recognition that some place or thing has special meaning. Destroying the special meaning seems to be the point in some cases..

    Like taking adultery partners to the beach where the married couples’ kids first toddled in the sand. Or to the couple’s favorite cafes, restaurants, parks or, in my case, a 450 mile trip to my home town and a hotel room with a full window view of the children’s museum where my three kids spent thousands of hours from infancy to tweendom with their parents.

    Of course not to mention the marital bed– where spouses made life plans, promises and had sex thousands of times times. Where feverish infants and sick tots or kids with bad dreams lay between their parents on countless occasions. Where mom nursed the new baby and where mom probably got pregnant. Where kids brought their parents breakfast in bed on mothers/fathers/birthdays. And the like.

    I think this goes beyond individual skein untangling because it seems to be a “thing” in infidelity. This is more a human interest inquiry about abnormal psych, like why so many cat burglars take a dump on the floor at the robbery scene.

  • My ex did this. I found her blonde hair in our sheets and all over our master bath. He tried to say it was my hair, funny thing is my hair is dark brown. Her face makeup was also all over my white pillow because you know, she was probably too much in a hurry to scr*w my husband to think about taking off her layers of makeup. She probably also didn’t want him to see her for what she really looks like without all that makeup.

    If I’m being honest, sure him doing that with her in our bed was upsetting but I would have been just as equally upset if he had just brought her through the front door of our home. Our home represented the blood, sweat, tears and sacrifice he and I worked for 8yrs together to achieve. We were so proud of the accomplishment made together, all the times we shared sandwiches for dinner and didn’t take vacations because we were saving for our home. The home where we’d build a family.

    The fact that he let her in our home, it killed me. It was more than just a house, it represented what we were capable of doing together. It showed that together we had the ability to build our dreams.

    I cried my eyes out when I moved out (we sold it after we separated). It was me walking away from a dream that never got to be celebrated. We had only lived in it for a year, were still getting settled and he never even let us enjoy it. It was crushing. I can’t even drive by that house or I’ll just cry my eyes out.

    • I feel the same way. I cant even go to the city or think of seeing our home again. It’s just too traumatic. I prefer to reflect in the good memories and just remind d myself that’s not who is now. I git the better years with him than what schmoopie will get if they stay together.

      • My ex isn’t with her anymore but I understand what you’re saying.

        I also agree, it’s way too traumatic to go by your old home. It represents something so different now and gives me PTSD.

        I feel terrible for any woman who meets my ex because they won’t know whats coming to them. My heart breaks for these women.

    • Mine seems to think I should come over and hang out for special occasions like Christmas morning. Never mind that he missed our last Christmas together with the kids to spend it with schmoopie 1.0. I will never set foot in that place again. After I moved out he might as well have hung a “now serving #xx” sign and revolving door. Even thinking of being in that place makes me want to vomit. There is nothing that could compel me to go in there. Nothing.

      • I swear Cheaters make these offers to help themselves with feeling better about what they’ve done. Their like “Oh I cheated and broke up our family, let me offer a place for them to have Sunday night dinners at. Yes that will make it all better”. Please hold my hair while I barf!

        I don’t blame you TooSmart, he’s out of his mind.

      • It’s interesting to contrast how the betrayed want nothing but to *avoid* any location that was tainted by an affair yet APs typically seem driven to invade the most intimate territory of the betrayed spouse at all costs and cheaters incite it. Weird.

        Cheaters are way too hard for me to figure out. But regarding APs, I also don’t get how someone can be so self negating and competitive that this overrides the gross-out factor of screwing on another person’s skin cell- and bodily fluid-drenched sheets. Sloppy seconds much? Are they getting off on the sensation of having symbolic and cellular sex with a third party? I keep my jeans on when trying out bathing suits at a store. Even underwear and that soiled sticky-paper sanitary crotch strip on unsold garments aren’t enough of a barrier between me and the last person to try the suit on.

        What’s even more shocking is an AP passing by artifacts of children living in the home on their way to the boudoir. How is that an aphrodisiac? I’m trying to imagine some bizarre scenario in which I’m somehow forced to screw some guy on his wife’s bed. Abduction at gunpoint? Death threats to my loved ones? The price I have to pay to get a kidney transplant for my child in some dystopian alternate reality? I think only winning a kidney for my kid would get me to overcome the nausea of passing the toy bin and kiddy crayon drawings on the fridge. Even then I’d have to be stupefied by smack or morphine to go through with it.

        APs and cheaters are a separate species.

  • Suzy,
    UBT’s first output explains everything: “This is not serious. I just miss fucking with your head.” This is the abstract of the article.

    But, you mentioned you were married for 35 years, so I am assuming XH is in his 60s and one of two things might be happening to explain this veritable Road to Damascus insight: either he is developing dementia and/or he is no longer able to pick up ‘des putes’. They’ve figured out he is broke or limp or going to give them too much work in general.

    I will file this letter in case my XH of 40 years tries to pull this one on me. To the best of my knowledge my bed was intact, but since I travel a lot, who knows. XH did make me track his pute’s (“my assistant’s”) lost luggage when they went to Florida together…..

    As CL says, you can’t make this shit up….

  • He is mocking you. He knew dam well that having sex with the OW in the marrital bed was wrong. He dud not care. He got a thrill out if it. And so did the OW.

    The best thing to do is go no contact. Let the OW have him they deserve each other.

  • PS….

    It’s a waste time trying to enlighten a cheater. If they could be enlightened none of us would be here. They are bottom feeders who live on the bottom of the ocean where light cannot
    penetrate. A gaping black bottomless hole where a mind and heart should be. A void of nothingness or maybe some space junk. I need that energy to get away and rebuild. I have none to spare. I can’t afford to give anyone a piece of my mind….I need the all ones I have left for myself…..

    • I agree, VH! I’d like to think that it might still be possible to educate a very young adult who gets drunk and cheats once, and immediately regrets it. But of course it’s not incumbent on any chump to sit around waiting for the education to happen! And as happened in my own case, it’s very possible for a disordered person to look super-remorseful after the first affair, when they’re not actually learning anything – so then, it’s just a matter of time before it happens again.

      I also want to say, VH, that I noticed you mentioned marital beds and cars above. I’m so sorry you still have to be in spaces that were infected by disorder, and I hear what you’ve done to try to make them usable. My STBX’s second affair was long-distance, so fortunately I did not have the indignity of them sleeping together in the marital bed. (Reminder: all three of us are women.) But, as I’m sure is true for many of us, I have evidence that STBX got off in our marital bed while they were sexting. (AP thought that I was asleep in the bed next to STBX while this was going on and found that though very titillating, indeed. As it happened, I was downstairs watching TV, but still.) In the modern age of texting/Facetime/video messaging, violations can happen anywhere.

      And as for the car thing: for 3 awful weeks after D-Day #2, STBX was planning to fly AP to a nearby city so they could have a weekend tryst while my parents took care of the kids. I did not make an ultimatum (end the relationship, or I’ll leave), because 1) I was traumatized and 2) I wanted to see if STBX would end the affair for her own reasons. But I did set certain boundaries, one of which was that I asked STBX *not* to use one of the family cars to pick up AP at the airport. As it happens, STBX ended the affair before that tryst took place. But it’s a good thing I made that demand, because here’s an actual transcript of the text conversation between them afterward:

      AP: Your going g to fuck me in your car
      STBX: Nope
      AP: Right when I see you
      AP: Yes, don’t argue with me
      STBX: Lezchump doesn’t want me to take one of our cars. I don’t blame her. She doesn’t need to think about me fucking someone else in her own car.
      AP: Kissing will turn into fucking
      AP: That’s so selfish
      AP: So you have to get an Uber or a rental.
      AP: I’m really not liking this right now so I’m ending this conversation sorry
      STBX: It’s ok. Sigh.
      AP: Ughhhhhhhhh I hate this so much I really do. But you can spend the weekend with me how fucked up is that
      STBX: Well, she isn’t ok with that either.

      …And even though the extremely passive-aggressive AP said she would end the text convo there, it continued for over an hour, while the AP had a fit and picked fights and STBX tried to talk her down in ways that made it crystal-clear that STBX was using both of us for cake. (But of course the very emotionally immature AP didn’t hold any boundaries, either.) Eventually, they made up, in part because they both could blame everything on me: AP said “Lezchump is making you suffer” (STBX did remind AP that I was suffering, but then they commiserated about how much each of them was suffering too), and then “I just feel like she is controlling everything, the time we talk the time we spend together it’s just sooooo wrong.” (Bitch cookie: STBX said “I’m making those decisions, based in part on her needs, and in part on mine.” Too bad STBX couldn’t own her disorder in any substantive way after breaking it off with AP.)

      It happened that I was able to reveal disorder by setting boundaries, and once the nature of that disorder became clear to me, I ended the marriage. But I really feel for chumps whose living spaces have been infected by disorder without their knowledge – it’s an extra level of mindfuck. I’m sure that STBX would have had zero compunctions about fucking the AP in our car if I hadn’t specifically asked her not to – because, as you rightly note VH, she just doesn’t “get it” on some fundamental level. And like you, I’m glad not to have to try to enlighten her anymore. (The only reason I post the text exchange above is because we chumps literally can’t make this shit up, and I think it’s instructive.)

      • What is it about this notion that chumps are somehow mistreating APs. My DDay was almost 4 years ago and the divorce was final almost 3 years ago. I have avoided Schmoopie like the plague since DDay. At first it was because I was angry and I didn’t want to do anything I might regret. Then it was because it was too painful to see them together. Now it is mostly because I have no respect for her and just don’t have any interest in being around her. I have not tried to prevent anyone else, including our children from having a relationship with her. I wouldn’t think she would want to interact with me any more than I want to interact with her. Apparently, however, I am shunning her and that’s mean. Ex did have one good point in that I am still civil towards him but that’s because he is the kids’ dad and we still need to interact sometimes on kid stuff and he still pays child support and being cordial avoids problems. There is no reason why I should need to interact with Schmoopie too. I guess if he makes too much of a fuss I can suggest parenting software if it will keep Schmoopie’s undies from getting in a bunch.

  • Yeah my Ex missed that memo also

    I’ve mentioned this before I found the butterfly for her earring and her scarf ( 2 separate occasions ) but it was after DDay when he could still legally come into the house

    I bet they had such fun rubbing my nose in it

  • Yup, he got an extra thrill out of doing it in their bed. This is why there is no talking to the morally bankrupt. They draw you into their fucked up thinking, and play the innocent. Leaving you worse off emotionally.

    My ex said his 3 year affair didn’t matter because she was ‘insignificant.’ Disordered thinking and malicious mind games.

  • Wow. Not sure if he is trying to reach out for attention and possible reconciliation with his feigned ignorance on “I had no idea having sex with someone else in our bed was wrong” or he is taunting you with having sex with someone else in the marital bed. I guess it doesn’t really matter….stay away from this dipshit. Not worth your time or energy.

  • As marriage vows ask one to “forsake all others” the further clarification that one ought not to fuck strange in the marital bed is unnecessary.

    Does he not understand the adage “insult on top of injury”? Does he lack the imaginative faculty that would allow him to appreciate symbolism? He sounds a lot like the clueless student I had who said “It’s just a metaphor. It doesn’t mean anything.”

  • THIS.

    This is my not-soon-enough-TBX.

    Red herring. Obsfucating. Super-lame attempt at deflection.

    Selfish idiot.

  • KK did this twice that I know of (as well as once in the Carrot Singer’s marital bed when his wife and daughter were out), and would have a third time had I not intercepted them.

    I am firmly convinced that it’s some combination of convenience (we all know that narcs detest being inconvenienced) and, as one of the interviewees puts it, “giving the third finger” to me and everything we’d built over 15 years.

    • Pretty much this.

      I found a picture of Schmoopie posted on social media (hers, I think) that was taken by CheaterX. She was sitting in our sun room, smoking a cigar, wearing his drover’s hat and sporting his wedding ring. I knew of the affair by then and had spent the week at my mother’s. I’ve no doubt but that she spent a whole lot of that week with CheaterX, and much of it at our house, fucking him in our bed.

      Of course I felt violated, but I had expected that he’d want to have her over to play house. Our house was convenient, and I’m sure that they got their jollies from having sex in the marital bed, but for different reasons. I am sure that she was marking her turf because she has a long history of fucking other people’s husbands. He would have liked both the convenience and the power play of doing something that he thought I’d never know about.

      I never confronted him about this, but I did ask him why the sun room smelled like cigars…

      • OMG. My cheater called his trysts with the OW “playing house”, which is something CHILDREN do, not adults. Because, you know, being an adult just is tedious.

      • Gross. How can a woman stoop so low to do that in a family home? How does she sleep at night? Pathetic and twisted bitch

      • Oh FFS! Terrible. My ex not only used the marital bed but the sectional etc… He seemed to delight in pointing out areas of the house where they had had sex, like a 15-year-old teenage boy bragging to his friend. My ex is 61. We were married 35 years.

        Oh, and he also informed me that he fucked her in HER marital bed. I’m not sure if he thought that made it all better. Equal-opportunity fucking. “Hey, we didn’t use our marital bed EVERY the time. We used hers, too. And you should be happy about that because I saved money on hotel rooms. So thoughtful of me!”

        Oh, these cheaters are a deranged bunch who get a thrill from inflicting pain. Glad he transitioned from STBX to EX a few weeks ago.

  • Not really oN topic but wanted to share. Yesterday there was a show on about people who had received various courage awards on ESPN. Robin Roberts received the Arthur Ashe Courage Award a while back. In her acceptance speech she mentioned that her mother used to say “Make your mess your message.”
    Thanks to Chump Lady and CN for doing this every day!
    Love and hugs to all!

  • Personally, I don’t care where ex fucked his schmoopies. It’s his penis that was soiled and I don’t have to deal with that anymore.

    I admit bit of territorial marking myself, however (well after the divorce was final). I was thrilled to have sex with the new boyfriend in what had once been the marital bed. I also took him to Maine where ex and I got married. I made sure to have sex with him in beds there that ex and I had shared in the past as well. Creating new memories to supplant the old painful ones.

  • Am I Ms.gullible?
    When I read this, I thought the cheater was being sincere in his idiocy. Some of the things that came out of the mouth of my very intelligent cheater (after Dday) were mind boggling.
    The degree of disconnection and lack of empathy is incomprehensible given the life that you shared together.
    And a lot of them still want to look like the good guy after – I thought bed cheater -in his own ‘I’m on another planet way’ – was trying to lessen the severity of his scumbag behaviour.
    I can’t relate to the mind of someone who cheats on their spouse -let alone cheats in their home or bed.
    Based on this letter alone could he not be a real disconnected dimwit ? -among other things…

    • I believe it is his way of minimizing what he did with ever-ready excuses. My cheater’s favorite is “I’m better than those other cheaters! I TOLD you, I came clean with you!” After 7 years of gas-lighting.

      Oh, that made me feel soooooo much better.

    • I have several friends with Asperger’s who blew their stacks when Jerry Seinfeld tried to reconcile some of his bad social behavior (possibly betraying a spouse? Sexually inappropriate behavior with intern? He did *someting*) by claiming on air he had high functioning autism.

      Friends thought it was not only dangerously stigmatizing to tar HFA with every ill deed by selfish twats who want to play hapless victims but it also ignores the genuine hardships that people with the condition commonly endure and that those feigning HFA as a get-out-of-jail-free-card obviously don’t suffer.

      Being numbed by fame, yes-men and ODing on kibble is not a neuropsychiatric condition. Seinfeld was forced to retract and apologize. See, his clinical kibble-numbness didn’t let him see how offensive his claim was.

  • One learns this from the ancient and mysterious Parchment of Decency, below the bit that explains that it is acceptable to back over your spouse in your pickup, but only as long as you don’t have the snow chains on. My cheater was like this, wilfully obtuse about the most obvious things especially when it came to moral codes. . I am not sure whether he had a touch of the Aspergers or was just an asshole (I heavily suspect the latter) but either way it was frustrating as hell.

    • According to friends with the condition (see earlier comment), betrayed spouses can rest assured that any suggestion by onlookers that the betrayed have cruelly failed to empathize with their cheater’s Aspy status is bunk.

      Genuine Aspergarians would also thank people for *not* handing that neuropsychiatric exculpation to any kind of cheater or to serial killers, mass shooters, mass-murdering dictators, coddled rich and famous numbnuts who treat their families and personal assistants badly, corporate leaders who wreck the environment and unleash death for profit, or pedophiles who serially rape and exploit.

      Considering that half of all excessive force deaths by police are against the mentally disabled and that hundreds of mentally disabled individuals are killed every year in schools and institutions due to brutal restraint and seclusion practices, the current trend of trying to sew up all human evil under the ASD banner only feeds a stereotype that fuels abusive and lethal treatment.

      For several years there have been a stream of junk studies and speculations that everyone from Hitler to Ted Bundy to Norwegian mass killer Anders Breivik had ASD. It’s the dark side of armchair speculatiins that every historical genius had the condition, but neither generalization adds up.

      Cheaters and batterers typically know better than to have meltdowns or violent tantrums in front of their bosses or armed police. They employ “charm” and image management and know enough to keep their sadism contained and behind closed doors even if many delight in traipsing up to the brink of getting caught. Those “quirks” might fall under criteria for personality disorder but not ASD.

      So let the asshat and fuckwit labels fly for cheaters.

      • Thanks Helluva, I used to put down a lot of Cheater’s behaviour to the diagnosis of a counsellor we saw who said she thought he might be Aspbergers or ADHD but in the end its a moral issue and I know people on the spectrum who would never consider the kind of gaslighting, lying and other juvenile bullshit he pulled even in the midst of dealing with their personal challenges. You’re right, it’s a lame excuse.

        • Stig– I totally believe you. It’s too convenient yet, like any lie, it’s dangerous.

          Remember the days when you couldn’t leave your doc’s office without a script for some psychoactive drug you didn’t ask for, didn’t seem related to your complaint and which you didn’t bother to fill? These pills were passed out like candy.

          One researcher with Asperger’s at the U of New Mexico published an essay charging psychiatrists with trying to relabel prescription drug-injured individuals as having ASD as a coverup of medication side effects and dangerous prescribing practices. As a person with ASD and a scientist, this researcher was deeply concerned that the increase in misdiagnosis would shift the criteria of ASD until it resembled drug induced dementia, affecting treatment and public perceptions of ASD as well as skewing statistics and ignoring an epidemic of chemical brain injuries.

          Now of course we have the opioid epidemic to remind us what comes of practices like that and there’s been a crackdown. But I remember ten years ago when adults getting latent ASD DXs was all the rage. Scary.

  • Reminds me of the talk, that never fucking happened, my dada gave my brother and I.
    He said ” NEVER hit on your GFs or wife’s mother, she is gonna hate that”.
    “where is this taught?” What a stupid ass article that HAS to be made up.
    It is like relying on the DMV to teach you what a STOP sign is for.
    If it wasn’t for those nice folks at the DMV? How the hell would you know?
    I like to catch reruns of 3rd rock from the sun.
    Funny show about aliens learning the human experience.
    Sounds like something I would see on a episode.

  • If only those assholes at the county clerks office had handed out the fucking other people while you are married is a NO NO!!!
    There wouldn’t be any more CHUMPS or FUCKWITS!!!
    LOL!!!

  • You gotta love cheaters. I re-read the email I received from mine saying that by having a girlfriend rather than fucking prostitutes he was keeping us both safer. Gee thanks for that! What an awesome and thoughtful move to hook up with my client at work so that you can fuck her rather than sex workers. Oh! And it’s cheaper too. He was just getting his needs met. What’s a guy to do? A win-win! He was shocked that I was upset by this. I guess he never learned about this in school either.

    • My was very proud to declare “At least I never paid for sex”. Oh, well, that makes it ok then.

    • I think your ex must have read from the same playbook as mine. Not paying for it is just sooo much better!!! This was such a huge comfort to me whilst I was enduring the discomfort of blood tests and having a gynaelogical examination to get checked for STD’s then anxiously awaiting the results. These people try to rationalise it, not because they actually care – they do it to make themselves better about doing what they know is a shitty thing. I hope you told him to shove his rationalisations fair and square up his ass.

  • Boundaries! Learn some!
    Actually, they know it’s bad, of course that’s why they do it. And leave nasty AP’s shirt under the covers, like mine did.
    One thing they didnt teach me in school, but I have learned is very, very valuable, is to look for a guy who sees boundaries, and respects them! Oh, if only there was a cleans in high school- good qualities in a partner. I might have listened! And not picked a guy just like my father- smart, good looking, funny, and psychotic. Selfish to the max, greedy, and sexually deviant. What a dream, NOT!
    So, yes, they love fucking in your bed, and then doing you there later. They know it’s sick. Stop faking like you didn’t know!

  • Suzy Q,

    Maybe you should tell him that you have a few other things to inform him about I’m case he missed the memo on these too. Tell him it’s common knowledge that you give your spouse a fair divorce settlement. Heck, tell him how it should be instead = if you cheat in your wife of 35 years, it’s common knowledge that she gets everything in the divorce! Ha!

  • Well, if he *had* to choose, would the cheater rather have me take my raunchy dump on the floor by his bed or right on his pillow?

    (Because I’ll be glad to do both.)

    My point being, sure they are both damn disgusting, but it isn’t rocket science to figure out it’s better to have shit on your feet than your face. It’s not something one is taught. It doesn’t take training. It’s not an unusual opinion.

    Therefore, it’s too absurd to be worthy of any response.

    The only real solution is to get rid of the source of the errant shit.

  • A CL article helped join the dots about why the strong smell of howorkers perfume throughout our house bothered me at the time – (a group of colleagues were there one afternoon when I came home with the kids and I could even smell it that evening when I went to bed). Then I was so busy, trusting & ignorant.

    First Xmas out CL’s Xmas carol challenge inspired a jingle bells tune “…despite what he said and decades wed he f’d her in our bed” – did not share the lyrics when the kids happily commented on my humming 🙂

    Now the walls sing at my new home (with a new bed and linen.)

  • Holy sheet:) Look, it means he actually is a good man, but wasn’t educated properly. I think he should be forgiven and get another chance. How can you require fidelity from him?? He would be good if you told him. Or the system! When I think about it more I come to the conclusion it is your fault. You should have told him. You didn’t and now you are mad????



    Seriously. Grey rock or no contact.

  • Classic DARVO. Boy oh boy what a predictable script.

    https://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/defineDARVO.html

    Reminds me of the time I confronted the ex (6 months + post D Day) about all my underwear he’d stolen and GIVEN TO HIS OTHER WOMEN (plural).

    One had reached out to me after connecting the dots and not believing his lies. We became friends, I got closure. In droves. She asked me if a sheer black slip he’d given her (poor fit, I’m a cup size or two bigger than her plus a couple of dress sizes). I had been looking for it all summer!

    I had thrown some underwear out (it was his thing, he’s an autogynophile as well) quite early on post D Day. On rubbish day, so no chance of being retrieved. It was just the stuff with holes and lace he preferred to wear. But I kept a load of nice day to day wearable stuff. It was that stuff that she got, not all of it, so assume it went to him or the other one (3 years fucking her in our bed while I worked and he told his dad/boss he was parenting as he bunked off work).

    Long story short though, his answer was “but you threw it in the trash!”

    My jaw dropped (I recorded this convo, you can hear my jaw hit the ground 😂). I was like “no I didn’t, and even if I did that is even creepier!”.

    At that point I pretty much went no contact and stopped trying to untangle the skein. These revelations are a gift at least. That’s how I see it.

    Who does that? Who thinks it’s excusable if said underwear was in the trash? Who gives their wife’s sexy underwear to not one but two other women, pretending that it’s new? Who gets off on wearing it? Who thinks this is ok???

    Psycho. Literally. Classic DARVO. Such a script.

    • THere was underwear returned or offered. The lid a whole lot she threw in the clothing bin because she smelled a rat. She only kept what she kept to avoid his drama when she couldn’t produce it for sexy time. Took her about 3 months to unravel everything from there. She was told we had seperated 8 months before we actually did, right about when I found out about the one a screwing at home while I worked ;still with her, and she’s knows all about the others too but keeps him on picking up guys on swingers sites “for her” (actually for him). Glad I got out of that one. She’s welcome to him. Also seen pics on her Instagram in my before she blocked me. Creepy AF.

      • OH god thumbs not working today 😂💁‍♀️ THere was lots of other underwear returned or offered back.

      • Yes, definitely creepy AF. I won’t even buy second hand La Perla on Ebay no matter how good the price.

      • Is he for real?? Why would you want back used underwear that he let other women wear. Just ewwww full stop. Don’t get me wrong, i’m all for recycling, but there’s some things that you don’t recycle and used underwear is one of them. Good riddance to that knobhead.

        • I took a slip and a girdle back. No pants no bras. I’ve worn the slip because I love it, and she never wore it. The girdle I’ve never worn again but also not pants anyway.

          That wasn’t the point though. When you’re getting closure in a closureless situation you take it.?

    • Nena–

      Holy cow. I noticed that the DARVO article was written by Jennifer Freyd. She would definitely know about the tactic since her parents not only attempted to use it on her to snuff her childhood memories of sexual abuse but they also founded an organization- the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (https://news.isst-d.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-false-memory-syndrome-foundation/)- that specialized in supposedly “debunking” the memories of sexual abuse victims and other victims. The organization turned into quite a lucrative front group that boasted a pool of expert witnesses and journos who testified or wrote op-eds in the defense of a wide range of personal, political and institutional abusers including Penn State’s Jerry Sandusky.

      One of their star members, Elizabeth Loftus (oft quoted in the NY Times) was hired as an expert witness in defense of a Serbian commander charged with war crimes and rape at the Hague. The Hague judge threw Loftus’s testimony out, as did the DOJ when Loftus was hired to defend Scooter Libby. Loftus testified for the defense in one of Ted Bundy’s trials, for O.J. Simpson, Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lists/defense-lawyers-experts-who-s-who-harvey-weinstein-trial-1266395/item/weinstein-trial-deborah-davis-elizabeth-loftus-1266399)

      Another infamous cofounder and board member is former TV magician James Randi whose sex tapes with underage boys have been circulated for more than thirty years. Randi went on to form another front group that defends chemical corporations and the arms industry but under the guise of “objective rationalism.” Just to make it more cloak and dagger, two further False Memory Syndrome Foundation cofounders were a couple of actual MK-ULTRA researchers.

      The FMSF finally shut down after years of serving up science-y sounding apologias and DARVO-ing on behalf of every type of monster. I suspect cuddling up to Weinstein finally did the group in. They had tried reputation laundering by volunteering their services to The Innocence Project but nothing could remove the stench of that organization.

  • I feel very strongly that cheaters will do and say anything, including playing stupid, to try to gaslight us as much as absolutely possible. My ex-husband told me after he was discovered to be an infidel (for the first time, yeah…shame on me because there WAS a second and a third and fourth and a…..) that technically we never discussed not having other partners, so actually he was not breaking the “rules” of our marriage because we never made that “rule”. Holy fucking shit. Yup, you are so right. We never made that rule, but the fact that you lived a double life that you kept entirely secret from me means that you KNEW I was not at all going to be okay with your “side-projects” (as he called them.). Fucking. Puke. These people are truly without a soul. They are morally fucked and will grasp at anything to make their behavior seem…I don’t know…innocent?! “No one told me fucking another in our bed was wrong…how the hell was I supposed to know?!” Leave. Them. Forever.

  • His first line – “This is a serious question” – was bait.

    A lie among many.

    I found out I had been lied to about all sorts of things, big and small, since the day I met The Python.

    Pathological liars toy with us. They’re often astonishingly good at lying, extremely convincing, but it’s best to realize these are not normal people and you have to learn to IGNORE their b.s. Don’t engage.

    NO CONTACT will set you free!

  • So this is some serious passive aggressive gaslighting. So sorry you have to deal with this fuckwit. No contact.

  • This!
    This is why No Contact is the path to the truth and the light!
    Why would you ever want to have this conversation? You don’t, nobody does. So exercise Some agency and choose to ignore this steaming pile of poop

  • He is undoubtedly messing with you. If you happen to run into this loser, I think all of Chump Nation would feel vicariously victorious to hear that he accidentally stumbled – hard – into your clenched fist.

  • I’m pretty sure that I have already posted at some point that my cheater fucked AP in our marital bed. It was the same day that we had posed for our annual holiday family photo (the one where he was actually just posing as a loyal husband). He walked her right past our Christmas tree…and our stockings which were hanging on the mantle. She had her own apartment at the time which her fiancé was paying for as he and she were “on a break”. In other words, they didn’t need to use our marital bed!

    He told me he “can’t remember” whose idea it was to use our home and our bed…but added that it was “probably” him!

    Cheater also did not change the bedding after and simply allowed me to crawl into our bed, exposing me to who knows what.

    I consider this act to be a manifestation of pure evil on the part of both of them.

    I’ve read that NY Times article at least one hundred times since DDay while continually trying to wrap my head around how someone can stoop that low (cheaters and APs)! This article always comes up (and very few others) when I search the topic.

  • My ex did this.
    When it all came out he said ” I didn’t let her sleep on your side, it didn’t seem right, so she slept on my side of the bed”. – So that makes it OK then?

    I asked why our bed was used and he said “We wanted somewhere to be together”.

    (This was supposed to be the big romance of the century, but I couldn’t see what was romantic about f***ing in another woman’s bed. If she’d had any class she’d have asked for a hotel room with champagne on ice)

    I was so amazed at his totally skewed moral compass, and absence of sensitivity I was speechless. However, I knew then that they both had serious boundary issues and were very selfish insensitive individuals (I didn’t know about narcissists then) so the divorce papers followed swiftly……

    • Ugh, cheater ex said the same freaking thing – “I didn’t let her sleep on your side of the bed”.
      He claimed that he fucked her in MY bed (he moved into the spare room years previously because I allegedly snored, when the truth was that I didn’t and he just wanted to easily sneak out at night) because it was convenient.
      What’s so convenient about trying to sneak the Hamburger Whore across the street (she was a neighbor) literally under the nose of the neighborhood watch (a different and very nosy neighbor)? Especially when she always had her own house to herself.
      Right, it wasn’t convenience. It was a sick, twisted, dirty and nasty thrill. She is a piece of garbage, but he is infinitely worse.
      Initially, Hamburger Whore denied that they had sex in my bed and house, “I’m not that kind of woman”. After I told her that ex admitted it, she shut up. But then volunteered that ex took her to our son’s house while our son and his family were out of town and tried to get her to have sex with him IN OUR SON’S HOME!!! That is truly beyond the pale. Makes me feel sick to my stomach. I just can’t fathom why he would do something like that?
      I threw out EVERYTHING that they tainted. Sold the house and bought a beautiful condo. Never told my son, but he and his family moved to another house, so I never had to say anything.

  • My lawyer called me last-week to reprimand me because my STBX had said that I was picking on his girlfriend, and saying I was going too far by telling his girlfriend I was going to ruin her. My idea of “ruining her” of course was telling the truth about what she did. She screwed my husband in my bed, and in my vehicle and then called to apologize about it. The car is now his.

    These people are sick sociopaths. Consider yourself lucky that you are not dead. If they can do this, and try to write you some stupid letter that makes no sense, imagine what else they are capable of. Dateline has story after story of people people disappearing, or being murdered for a reason.

    I am not trying to be mellow dramatic here either. This crap happens, and this letter is sick, sick, sick. NO CONTACT.

  • My narcissistic mom believed she wasn’t expected to know *anything* that wasn’t taught in school. There is no room for logic, empathy, common sense, or respect in some heads.

  • What does one even say to this? Dealing with my ex-wife’s constant bullshit, gaslighting and revisionist history has been incredibly exhausting and enlightening. However, this email is so absurd and so insulting. Thank your lucky stars to be rid of this moronic sociopath and DO NOT CONTACT HIM AT ALL. STOP PLAYING HIS GAMES.

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