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A Chump Off the Old Block

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Dear Chump Lady,

My beautiful, intelligent daughter has now joined the ranks of lovable trusting Chumpdom. She’s a Chump Off the Old Block. I left her father 10 years ago after he cheated for the umpteenth time. I did the “let’s wait and see” for years, which is exactly what she’s doing now. I’m not sure what to say to her, but I did give her your book which she hasn’t started reading yet. Not sure that she will.

Her boyfriend of two years and her BEST FRIEND hooked up. All three of them were at his place watching TV and the friend and boyfriend were drinking. My daughter went home around 10 p.m. because she had a job interview the next day and her friend, who was already drunk by this time, stayed there. The friend and boyfriend drank even more and ended up in bed.

The following week the friend dropped the bomb on my daughter. The friend is blaming it mostly on the boyfriend whom she says pressured her into it. While the boyfriend is blaming the friend for plying him with drinks and crawling into his bed. And of course he says he can hardly remember anything about that night (insert eyeroll).

My daughter has pretty much decided it was the friend’s plan to do this and screw up her relationship because she’s always been jealous. Which may have some truth to it BUT the boyfriend participated! “But he was drunk and didn’t know what he was doing,” says my daughter, “so it’s not really cheating.” And now she wants to excommunicate the friend and MOVE IN with the boyfriend. He says he’ll stop drinking and go to counseling. Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, her father.

She has no kids with this guy or financial entanglements, other than both of these bottom feeders are on my daughter’s phone plan. She is gorgeous, kind, and generous. She deserves way better! I don’t know how to get through to her and I blame myself for not preparing her for this kind of garbage, plus setting a bad example by staying with her father for so long. What can I say and do? Feeling useless.

Sincerely,

Chump Mom

Dear Chump Mom,

Sometimes the best teacher isn’t mom, but life. Mom lectures, life kicks you in the teeth.

My great-grandmother had a saying (probably harsher in its original German): “If you do not listen, then you must feel.

Implore all you want, she’s choosing to feel her lesson. Garbage Boy stays on the phone plan.

She’s making a mistake a lot of chumps make after discovery — she’s blaming everyone but him. (And of course, he’s probably blaming everyone but him too.) It’s the Other Woman’s fault. She was jealous! She seduced him! It’s alcohol’s fault. Gosh, if we just address the drinking problem, we’ll solve the fucking around problem too!

Sigh.

No. Garbage Boy made CHOICES. He has agency. It wasn’t alcohol that made him forget he had a girlfriend, it was his shitty character and sense of entitlement. He felt entitled to stay and party after his girlfriend left, he felt entitled to keep drinking, and he felt entitled to fuck his girlfriend’s best friend.

Of course, connecting those dots — that he CHOSE to harm her, it wasn’t a Thing That Just Happened Because Reasons — is tremendously painful. So best to think he didn’t deliberately and with aforethought devalue her. Too scary. And what do chumps do with scary things? We try to CONTROL them. So, she’ll drag him off by his hairy ear to therapy.

And now she wants to excommunicate the friend and MOVE IN with the boyfriend. He says he’ll stop drinking and go to counseling.

Yeah, funny how he’s not the one excommunicating the “friend” — she is. There’s your sorry. He’s not invested in fixing this, SHE is. He “says he’ll go”? Wow. Big heavy lift!

First off, even if he was interested in getting a handle on his demons (he’s not, see lack of remorse above), a person struggling to get sober is NOT an available partner. Addiction is their partner. It’s a messy break-up. (But more likely, a continuing on-again, off-again passion). The chump is peripheral. Healthy people don’t stay with UNAVAILABLE unhealthy people. Wish him the best with his recovery, go get a new life. If you’d like to revisit this decision in, like, 5 years and see how that sobriety sticks? Okay, but I doubt you’ll want to.

But no, Chump Chip is going to redouble her efforts, take a hard toke on the hopium pipe,  and move in with him. She’s performing the pick me dance and volunteering to be the booze police.

Mom, I totally understand why you want to stop her. And I totally understand (even if your daughter doesn’t) that modeling chumpdom set a family dynamic of Love The Loser, and Make Your Needs Microscopic. She’s reliving that shit with Garbage Boy only THIS time, she’s going to WIN the pick me dance. Tragic, but remember, she’s CHOOSING this crap. She’s knows what he is. So, she’s no longer a chump, but a hopium addict chasing a unicorn. Don’t blame yourself for her shitty choices — remember you also set a GOOD EXAMPLE and left your cheater. So, hopefully at some point, so will your daughter.

Remember, we don’t control other people. Just ourselves. You can speak your truth (“I don’t like Garbage Boy”), you can enforce your boundaries (“Garbage Boy isn’t welcome in my home, but you are”), you can change the subject (“How are your peonies?”), you can remind her of who SHE is, (“You’re so great at growing peonies!”), you can let go and Let Her Feel the consequences of her decisions, (“Cool. Bummer. Wow.”) and you can be there with the station wagon and hugs when she inevitably moves out.

On the off chance you show this letter to your daughter, the rest of my advice goes to her:

Dear Chump Chip,

Check your cell phone plan. Could it be that Garbage Boy and former BFF have communicated beyond that a one-night drunken stand? You have the receipts.

Please get an STD check. If your boyfriend forgets where he puts his dick, then he can’t rightfully tell you if he’s ever done this before.

Alcoholics make terrible partners. So do people in recovery, because breaking up with addiction is where their energy needs to go. Not you.

Beautiful and intelligent you deserves better than these loser “friends.” Ask yourself why these relationships are acceptable to you? Frankly, even if you’re moronic and leprous, you deserve better than these loser “friends.”

You’re probably going to choose wrong. (BTDT, wrote the blog.) We’re here for you.

I never learned much from listening either. The shit-kicks from life’s thug-booted mistress though?

Hope you’re a quick study.

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Aren’t we all Chump Moms, trying to get through to our partners? I sure am.

    Al Anon, Chump Lady, and my therapist are my holy trinity of self-defense against infidelity. That’s my best suggestion.

    If I don’t listen, then I must feel.

    Have a great day, everybody. As best you can.

      • “Alcoholics make terrible partners. So do people in recovery….”

        Ouch! I am an alcoholic in recovery (34 years on 8/15/20).

        I’d tweak that to read that practicing alcoholics, and people in EARLY recovery make terrible partners. Where I live we like to say that five years of recovery is when things start clearing up. I agree with that assessment, and that it’s a damn good idea to stay out of a relationship and focus on recovery for a few years.

        But hardly anyone ever does that. And that’s
        what I am doing again.

        • I think there’s a lot of misinformation about alcoholism in general. I read “This Naked Mind” by Annie Grace about a year ago and it changed my life. One of the things I learned is alcoholics aren’t all bad people with a lack of self-control. The alcohol is doing exactly what it’s supposed to. But, right on sister. 🙂

          • Loving and eventually leaving an active alcoholic taught me that alcoholics are not all bad people. There was a lot of good there or I would not have loved him in the first place. I watched him dry out through some fairly horrific DT’s 3 times “for me” because I begged him to. But he went back to the bottle each time. Active alcoholics are not available for a relationship. EVER. Alcoholics in early recovery are not available for relationships. EVER.
            But not being available for a relationship is not the same as being a bad person. I left my alcoholic lover because I realized I was enabling him. I still loved him. I loved him through all the years he spent inevitably drinking himself to death. But I did it from a distance because it was the only good thing I could do for him. The rest had to be done by him for himself. I wish he had been able to turn himself around. I wish with all my heart his life had been happier. But I could not make that happen. It’s a harsh thing to know. I visited him in the hospital to read to him at the end and I wept at his funeral. This is reality for many people addicted to alcohol. I hope chump chip does not have to go through the “feeling” way.

          • RumbleKitty, I don’t think the point is that alcoholics are terrible people, but rather that

            a) the combo of alcohol and cheating is a particularly confusing one, because we often convince ourselves that if they stop drinking, they won’t ever cheat again. There are two problems with that, the first being that stopping drinking is a lot harder than it looks, the second that many cheaters will still cheat even if they never touch alcohol again.

            b) active addicts and people in early recovery are poor partners, not good relationship material, and also poor bets for the long term, even when they’ve never cheated and never will.

            So Chump Chip has a double whammy here. Sigh.

            I was married to an alcoholic for 10 years, and never thought he was a terrible person. He was a super smart, loving, sexy man – who couldn’t stop drinking, couldn’t couldn’t. I had to eventually figure out that there was no way to have even a reasonably satisfying marriage with him, and that I couldn’t change that.

            I do think Cheater Narc is a pretty terrible person, but that’s because of the swath of pain and destruction he leaves behind him WHEREVER he goes – PLUS the fact that he doesn’t seem to learn from that or make changes that might protect others. But I don’t blame him for this, I know his family and his genetics, he was probably doomed from birth. I feel really sorry for him. But I keep well away from him, and from people like him. And hope to hell my kids have learned the same.

            • This.

              I married an alcoholic cheater. I am alcoholic, too. After a rocky first year of marriage, we had a fight that turned physical and I stopped drinking, got therapy & mutual support from others in recovery and began that rough road to freedom.
              Cheater “followed” me into support groups, called himself in recovery without availing himself of the tools and was cheating in no time. More, in fact. Multiple women, outright verbal and emotional abuse of me, gaslighting, and playing sad sausage in the recovery community, which looks like humility to the naive & ignorant.

              As I was early in recovery and codependent af, even after filing for divorce (which would have saved me another 26 years of his shit/my learning curve). I succumbed to the pressures of out “spiritual” peer group, dropping the divorce suit, setting the stage for CakeNarc to go deeper underground.

              Active alcoholics and those in early recovery make crappy partners & choices. This is a good takeaway for me as I am now seeing someone who drinks. I need to be clear before I leap.

              Chump Chip,
              We cannot fix others. It doesn’t work like that. We can only make better choices for ourselves. Believe what you see, not what they say.
              If you sober up a horse thief, what you get is a sober horse thief. Sober cheaters are the same. Ask me how I know.

              • I’d like to chime in here to say I’ve known more than a few people who were substance abusers and didn’t mess around on their spouses. Some of the spouses left because they didn’t want to deal with the substance, or wanted to continue to use the substance, but they didn’t leave because of infidelity.

                Substance abusers can have secretive behavior when it comes to their addiction, but not all secretive behaviors involve sleeping with your partner’s best friend.

        • Well said, Velvet.
          There is no person with more integrity than an ex-addict.
          I think that is because they are sick and tired of being sick and tired (avoidant, deceitful, manipulative, selfish, uncaring, abusive, controlling)
          They really value honesty and integrity for the shining path it is.
          They understand about minding their own business, working on their stinking thinking, and keeping their side of the street clean.
          Grateful member of Al-Anon here! (horribly addicted to/obsessed by Cheater – no more!!! Vaccinated for trauma bonding, possess stamped passport to the state of Meh!)

          12 Steps is a gift.

  • I’d recommend Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families. This shit is generational and dysfunction (tolerance of abuse) is normalized. Congrats for leaving your cheater. Keep boundaries and watch for isolation. Emphasize taking care of her needs.

    • When in college I dated a recovering addict who introduced me to ALANON. (turns out he was one of the most honest and best relationships of my life and where ever he is in this world right now, I hope its in a good place with a good person by his side) Though I only attended for a few months, the tools I learned there I have used in the decades since. Detachment in particular came in handy when I finally decided to put down the hopium pipe at the end of my marriage.

  • I am the mom of a son. So far he has not shown the tendencies of his dad. But, I will be devastated if he does. He is 51 now.

    • My dad was a cheater and all around emotionally abusive father. My brothers are not cheaters
      (but certainly have a lot of issues ). I did however marry 2 men who devalued me ( 1st H personality disorder and other MH issues ) and ( 2nd H much to my shock, a cheater disguised as Mr perfect pants). I’m still trying to figure that out. They both seemed like absolute catches for the first few years. They are both good dad’s and love their FOO. I had them both on a pedestal, they both ended up discarding me. My friends think it’s just bad luck or a coincidence. 2 therapist so far have not been overly helpful.

      • I think part of this is genetics, the flukes of personality, especially the persons level of empathy, their sensitivity to others’ emotions. A sensitive child cannot become a narc, no matter who they’re raised by or under what conditions. They suffer a ton, though, when raised around narcs!

        Cheater Narc’s mother has repeatedly been an OW, although I don’t think she cheated in either of her two disastrous marriages. She’s a ‘victim narc’, took me a long time to figure out. His father is frankly a sociopath, with ALL the accompanying vices. Cheater Narc has 4 siblings, the two brothers are both very straight arrow and serious in their relationships, and his two sisters ditto. One of the sisters has unfortunately made her life w/a guy who is unreliable in other ways, but apparently not a drunk or cheater, so I guess that’s progress.

        As w/all sorts of other family dysfunction, the goal is that the next generation not have to experience this crap ….

    • If he’s 51, his character is already developed. Congratulations — you may have raised a good man.

      My father was a cheater, his father, his grandfather and his great grandmother. Mother was a holy roller who put up with the cheating. I grew up to be a chump (I got married three times. All cheaters and abusers. My picker was seriously warped.) My sister and 13 (out of 13) cousins all grew up to be cheaters — personality disordered, character deficient fuckwits. As much pain as my cheating husbands caused me, I think I’m the lucky one. I have integrity; they don’t.

      I think the mother of Chip Chump may grow to be grateful her daughter is a chump, not a cheater. Chumps have a chance to fix their pickers and grow.

  • My daughter married her high school sweet heart. He was a cheater (his mom was a cheater). I left and she left so we kinda did it together.Cheaters don’t get the inter-generational damage that cheating does. I want us to keep getting the word out that cheaters never stop, the damage is real, and that it is socially unacceptable. Just like all abuse…CHEATING IS ABUSE.

    • My 22 year old son and 16 year old daughter are in committed relationships. I’ve spoken to both of them about keeping their promises and exiting the relationship with respect if it becomes necessary. Cheater ex, whose father is also a cheater, actually told both of them there might be times when it’s ok to break your promises. They didn’t buy it. I’m so glad I got to them first.

      • this is everything to me: exactly my own story.
        21 year old son and 16 year old daughter, witnesses to the breakdown/up of the family, know that truth and honesty will set you free. I focused on teaching them how to be honest and unselfish, despite the generational bloodline of cheaters.
        Feels good. x

  • This happened to my daughter, Lily, too. She and my granddaughter Rose live with me.

    Her husband just took her daughter for his 7 week visitation in New Mexico. Today is the completion of week one. He got a girlfriend to move in with him for the occasion and she’s one he cheated on my daughter with, so Lily is struggling with that.

    They’re all the same.

  • Hi Momma and Daughter,

    Let me explain just a single view of why “ALCOHOL” is a really bad Relationship Partner.

    I was married to “UnHusband” 13 years ago. We got divorced 7 years ago. In all this time “UnHusband” has been married to alcohol to the point that he might be brought up on Prosecuting Charges for:

    1. Transporting Minors in the car while impaired (Our 2 boys)
    2. Carrying Firearms in said car without a license (Felony in Michigan)
    3. Domestic Violence ( Went after Current Wife when she left with their 2 minor children to be safe)

    I say all of this…To say… There is NO AMOUNT of Alcohol that can EVER EXCUSE or make you NOT remember an event…Unless its Alcohol Poisoning (Pretty Sure).

    NOW… I (Boys Mother) am having to deal with all of this Repercussions with his current wife – their kids and my boys – Plus their DAD… “Who Claims to be sober and Not drink again” Who is magically a Christian now that the GOING is getting Tough…

    Now this is not to say a person’s character CAN’T CHANGE… But ONLY TIME WILL PROVE IF DAILY ACTIONS ARE TRUSTWORTHY… Especially when that “Person has to walk in the Dark” for a while.

    – Momma, I would just PRAY for my kiddos… and Do the boundaries Chump Lady suggests… Especially him not welcome in your home anymore… This will SPEAK volumes to daughter…

  • Can a mother NOT feel guilty ?

    On a practical note the daughter needs an std check before she has sex with lover boy again. If she thinks they can return to a pre-cheating state of relationship she has an awakening to come.

    • A very chunky mistake I made was forgiving the cheater and blaming the OW. And this is what allows her to take him back. She believes….
      The Limited was always the victim of being
      Irresistible!

      • If only OPs (or near OPs) & chumps could unite to shun the cheaters, we would have a way better world

  • As far as I know, my parents were faithful to each other. My dad passed away at age 62, my mom met my wonderful stepdad 10 years later.

    As far as I know, fidelity runs in my family….but not my cheater’s. His dad was a cheater, his mom was a cheater – in fact, moved her two high-school aged sons into her lover’s house immediately upon being kicked out by her 2nd husband. I can’t imagine that not having an impact on an adolescent boy, especially when she was the “sane” parent.

    Still, not my skein. MY skein is to figure out WTF is wrong with me that I am attracted to cheaters. I’m decent looking. I put out (except anally – which is what caused the most recent cheater to stray). I work hard. I’m a great cook. I have single-handedly created revenue sources for my daughter and I.

    And now, before I even poke a toe in the dating pool, IF I poke a toe in there, I’m going to do a serious assessment about my own fucked up self that finds these guys attractive. Enough is enough.

    • “I put out (except anally – which is what caused the most recent cheater to stray).”

      No, no – that isn’t what forced him to cheat. He cheated because he felt entitled to do so and used your disinclination for anal as justification.

      Good luck with fixing your picker!

      • This! Your boundaries in the bedroom do not cause someone to cheat. Their shitty character causes them to cheat. If it turns out that both partners do not share the same tastes in bedroom activities AND if one partner really and truly feels as if the disconnect is a deal-breaker, then the honorable thing to do is to file for divorce. Anything else is blameshifting.

      • Job One of fixing a picker is realizing that your own behavior (or lack of it) cannot and will not control the actions of another person. Until then, you’re spackling and pick-me dancing through life while deluding yourself you are powerful and in control (“If I just act like this, then surely s/he will act like that”), and, in the process, setting yourself up for disappointment and hurt.

        Control what you can control: your own values and actions. Set your own boundaries and act to keep them based on your values.

        Just my hard-earned two cents worth.

    • Good individual counseling on betrayal & PTSD for yourself goes a long way IvyLeague.

      You can either go to an individual counselor / therapist who specializes in this (what I have chosen to do) or if/when you get to toe-dipping in the dating pool, someone in the Dating Industrial Complex who gets that betrayal & PTSD / C-PTSD are things you will need to address as you date & seek relationships again.

  • Yeah, 4 months after we were married the ex was making out with a Ho at the office Christmas Party. He said it was because he was drunk. No, it was because he’s an ass. I said am I to assume this will happen every time you get drunk? He said oh no, it won’t happen again, but it did, so many times I lost count. Yes, I am president of the Chump Club. We were married exactly 37 years and 8 months too long.

  • My ex got drunk while working in Ghana for a month. Passed out drunk. Woke up the next morning with a prostitute giving him a blow job! He THOUGHT nothing happened because he still had his clothes on but he couldn’t be sure. He had to tell me about it so we both ended up getting HIV tested. Great fun. Yeah, stick with a drunk and wait for the DUIs, the anger, the violence, the constant repairing other people’s cars. If you’re lucky they’ll only kill themselves with their drunk-driving and nobody else!

  • This really rang true to me. The whole reason I am divorcing my husband is for my daughter to not fall into the same trap. My husband (separated 3.5 years) was an alcoholic and sex/porn addict. I only knew about the booze so when he would tell me he was medicating himself for something else I thought it was depression or a personality disorder. And the alcohol was mostly managed so I didn’t think he was a full raging alcoholic. He blamed his job!! Home with me and our daughter was great and his only saving grace.

    Then the drinking got way worse….it couldn’t be ignored. “Please get help”,I would ask or “see someone about your feelings and mood swings”. “A professional could help you set boundaries at work so you can do you!” Thinking if he had self-care to balance life he could be home more to enjoy us.

    Cue affairs and finding the sex/porn, kicking him out, and finding a sex addiction therapist who was an advocate for me and my healing. I gave my husband grace to get help before filing and he did so reluctantly. He lied in his disclosure, refused the polygraph, and dropped the program to find a therapist he felt comfortable with. I filed for a divorce and that offended him. No signs of recovery since, he has avoided the whole thing, and he has had 3.5 years of supervised visits with our daughter. He ghosted us and has been silent other than when he sets the visitation schedule by email.

    Now with Covid, I have them on video chats. I asked him for a physical address (my legal right) and the names of whom he hangs out with. I would like to meet with his therapist. I need to know she is safe. I got this response: I am single and living in a studio apartment in …..I have been sober for 3.5 years…I have a small group of friends whom I associate with. He still acts like the victim.

    Sober from what? He thought that if he just quit booze that was all he needed. Single? We are still legally married!!!! Friends? No names were included so you are still hiding something. I had asked for specifics so that our daughter was safe, not for personal reasons. Am I wrong for setting this boundary during Covid? He revealed only what he wants me to know and is still not telling me the truth. This is the difference between sobriety and recovery!

    • Be sure to pass all of this along to your attorney representing you in the divorce. This could & should affect your permanent custody agreement once the divorce is final.

  • ‘It wasn’t alcohol that made him forget he had a girlfriend’
    I would add that he didn’t forget, he just didn’t care.
    Please tell your daughter that by standing by these two creeps, she is telling the world what she thinks she is worth. Some people say alcohol brings out the truth in people. They have shown her who they are. Just the fact that her friend stayed to party shows a lack of disrespect as a girlfriend.
    Her boyfriend’s continuing to party alone in an apartment when they are both intoxicated also shows poor judgement and a lack of empathy. That would be enough to question their empathy and care for her. The fact that they slept together… Slam dunk. RUN

  • Dear Daughter’s Mom,

    It was the “best friend” who told your daughter about your boyfriend’s infidelity. He didn’t even bother to tell her. What else will he not tell her? Not that this exonerates the friend, but AT LEAST she had the courage to tell your daughter, the boyfriend, not so much. Anyway – it is very easy to see what is going on. The difficult and challenging part is for you to let your daughter make her own mistakes. Ugh!

    I’m an imperfect mom of adult daughters, and have learned the hard way, that you have to let them live their own lives, make their own mistakes, without your interference (even though you are right and can save them so much future pain). It is the only way that they will feel the full wrath of their own decisions, and then learn and become an advocate for themselves.

    There’s plenty of psychobabble out there that will probably blame your ex (your girl’s dad) for her decision to stay with boyfriend. She may be trying to “fix” her cheating and unavailable dad via her boyfriend. But, it doesn’t matter. Let her figure it out, and she will.

    The more you get in her face about it, the less apt she is to start the learning process. She will instead, rebel (at least subconsciously), and focus on you not having confidence in her. Let her feel the burgeoning insecurities about her boyfriend. Let her feel the nagging sense of distrust and let her advocate for herself as an adult when she can no longer tolerate the situation. I think something really important, is to maintain a strong, healthy relationship with your daughter but don’t cross into her personal life as you risk harming her growth, and harming her trust in her relationship with you. She may stop sharing with you if she thinks you are judging “her” instead of supporting her. Let her inner-chump unravel. Let her know that you trust her with being an adult,and then invite her to lunch or for a walk, or something and don’t talk about her relationships, unless she brings it up, then listen and support. It’s hard, I know! In fact, if she seems to be struggling, suggest that she see a therapist to talk about it.(Cross your fingers that she doesn’t end up seeing a nut job therapist.)

    The more I’ve inserted myself into my adult daughters’ relationships, the less they share, and the longer it takes for them to draw their own boundaries for what they will and will not tolerate in their friends and significant others’ harmful behavior. Don’t turn it in to a battle between you and her. When you let go, you’d be surprised that your daughter will figure it out. Mine always figured it out when I stepped back. Sometimes it took a year, or so. When she does, you can be there – again – letting her know that you trust her decisions.

    Been there.

    • Kimberley, I agree! The difficulty is finding the right balance, avoiding pushing or interfering, but still letting them know when we are concerned. I like to plant a little idea, info or concern in the ears of people I care about, then drop it, change the subject, let it go.

      That way they know I care and am seeing things that I think are important. They have that little seed in their minds, so might catch on faster. AND they don’t feel I’m being controlling or feel the need to defend the person they love or the decisions they’re making (which drives them deeper into hopium). They also know I’m available for further discussion, when and if they are so inclined.

      I’ve applied this to my now-young-adult kids, on so many topics, and to friends, colleagues …. I don’t want to just let them sink or swim entirely on their own when I have info or a perspective that might be helpful. But I also know very well, FINALLY, that I can’t control other people. And that my attempts to do so just create more distress and harm all around. I can only set my own boundaries, and enforce them.

    • ‘ She may be trying to “fix” her cheating and unavailable dad via her boyfriend.’ Thx Kimberley, 💡 I was certainly trying to fix or help 1st exH who kept leaving and swearing to make it up to me and repeat over and over – he became very troubled ( no signs of this the first few years ) ….I was convinced I could get him help before he completely trashed our lives. This wasn’t a cheating thing…. (well there was the porn issue) a devaluing, M health and leaving thing. Finally therapist #5 told me I had to leave before there was nothing left of me.
      Then H#2 ( my dream H) left me suddenly for OW, and I thought I could fix that as well. I thought he was having a mental breakdown. He actually does seem to be having a rough time and not living the ‘dream.’
      You made me realize I’m a fixer…. and end up with emotionally troubled men (like my dad)….who really really fake it well at first.
      My advice to anyone who’s trying to fix things is what therapist #5 said to me ‘ get out before there’s nothing left of you.’

    • “Not that this exonerates the friend, but AT LEAST she had the courage to tell your daughter, the boyfriend, not so much.”
      I’m not so sure I would call the best friend courageous. I believe I read cheater friend told chump daughter two weeks later. If cheater boyfriend had any idea best friend was going to confess he would have come clean first. He didn’t. I think best friend had designs on cheater boyfriend and things did not go according to plan. So she “confessed” not so much to clear her conscience or that she felt guilty, it was to blow the relationship up. One way or the other she was going to break these two up. By no means am I giving cheater boyfriend a break. He is a weak, stupid man prone to cheating and chump daughter should dump him as well.

      • I totally agree. The BF deserves no breaks but this girl has issues. It’s even more complicated because this girl was dating the boyfriend’s roommate for over a year and they just broke up! So this girl and my daughter’s BF hurt two people. The roommate thinks she did it not only to breakup my daughter and her BF but for revenge on him as well. What a train wreck!

        Chump Mom

      • KB22 I think you’ve got this

        Friend is untrustworthy because she slept with her ‘friend’ Chump Daughter’s boyfriend & the motives of ‘best friend’ are suspect.

        Boyfriend is untrustworthy because he slept with Chump Daughter’s boyfriend & said nothing about it.

        Both people in Chump Daughter’s close social circle worry me a lot because alcohol is involved.

        Bingeing a substance to a point where you have sex where the consensual nature of it is iffy possibly indicates both boyfriend & best friend of Chump Daughter are on the path to addiction. Best friend could still accuse boyfriend of a crime & this could get uglier still.

        Also I don’t get why she chose these 2 to be on her shared cell phone plan, but this is penny wise (yay! cheap calling & texts) & pound foolish (yikes! with a boyfriend & best friend like this, Chump Daughter would be better off alone with a pet & one or more good hobbies).

    • Wise advise. TY. I needed this today. My daughter is being pressured to let her controlling argumentative boyfriend move in to the glorious house she found for herself. I keep reminding her of the importance of “a room of one’s own” but I need to stop ‘til asked. I do insist separate checking accounts and I always have. I’ll keep insisting on that being victim of two identity thefts by my mother.

      I’ll just be there for her when called on. I guess they do need to live their own chumpdom to grow (ugh) and I can just pray things don’t go as badly as they did for me (H devastated us financially and cheated and was controlling of everything).

  • Of course, if the boyfriend makes threats regarding bodily harm, this is a different scenario that I did not see in your letter. But, even then, I’ve seen victims in court who come back time and time again, filing complaints against the same defendant for hitting them a second and third time. Then appearing in front of the judge a week later begging for the case to be dropped because the victim forgives the abuser. Therapy may help, but the boundaries must emerge from the “victim” at some point for the madness to stop.

  • 1st of all: why is everyone on your daughter’s cellplan???

    I don’t have much to add, other than to suggest that your daughter may just have to learn things the hard way. I have 2 teen daughters, who are just starting to get along w/their mom again, although her BF (guy/co-worker she cheated with) is still in the picture, and thankfully my girls what no interaction with.

    I have to trust that my girls are smart enough to see right from wrong, and that they have a perfect example (their cheating mom) to reference if they end up in a similar spot in their own relationships.

    • They figured they could all save money by being on the same plan. Of course my daughter is trusting. Now she’s learned not to mix friendship with money. Sad.

  • “The following week the friend dropped the bomb on my daughter.”

    So the boyfriend didn’t even have the spine to tell her himself. Oof.

    Shame that she has them both on her cellphone plan. Yeah, she could look at the log of calls and texts, but she won’t or she will spackle them away.

    Nothing you can do but tell her you love her and that you trust she will figure out what to do next. Although I would, as a mom, point out that getting an STD panel done would be a wise decision. Just in case.

  • I haven’t noticed anyone bring up the question of consent. Did the ex best friend consent? Blaming the woman is and old old story.

    • Yes she did consent. She gave way more details than boyfriend did. She said he asked her to come to bed, he said she crawled in bed on her own, whatever. But then she admits to asking him if he wanted a blow job, and he said yes. It’s a strange case because the boyfriend’s roommate is this girl’s ex boyfriend, and they just broke up 3 weeks ago. The roommate/ex boyfriend thinks it was revenge on her part in order to hurt him. The roommate was devastated when he found out. He’s a very nice guy and this girl has always taken advantage of him financially etc. Not the first time she’s cheated on him. She’s now moving to across the country to get away from all this. Good reddens, I wish she’d take my daughter’s boyfriend with her! I don’t understand how people can be so disgusting!

      • Oh dear, please suggest Chump Daughter get new friends & boyfriends (not the roommate of boyfriend aka ex boyfriend of your daughter’s ‘best friend’, he may be nice but he’s been wounded too & right now this is the last thing your daughter needs).

        In the meantime a copy of the book ‘Cheating In A Nutshell’ (for daughter & also for boyfriend’s roommate) would be appropriate.

      • “The roommate was devastated when he found out. He’s a very nice guy”

        Are you thinking what I am thinking? The roommate is available now, too —

      • I think I would still focus on the cheater not the friend. It sounds like a lot of drama and maybe her leaving is the best thing. I hope your daughter doesn’t focus so much on blaming the friend because she’s heard something from someone who may want it to be consensual even if it wasn’t. Or who may want to stir up drama. Either way letting that part go will feel better in the long run.

  • “If you do not listen, then you must feel.”

    This is the exact same quote that my gran used to tell us, but in Afrikaans, which is a native language in South Africa. It went: “As jy nie wil luister nie moet jy voel”. And she was spot on. No matter the advice we’re given we often have to go through these unfortunate experiences in order to shape us and see things for ourselves.

    I so wish I could go back to 2010 and make different decisions, but I am where I am and it will be OK I can feel it. No chance in hell I’m ever doing another pick me dance.

    Chump Mom, just hang in there as hard as it may seem. Your daughter will open her blinkers eventually and she’ll need you more than you ever know. It’s ok to tell her your opinion, but don’t force her into a situation where she may choose him over you, because we know how that may go and you don’t need that stress in your life of losing a daughter. Have faith, be strong and keep your chin up, the fuckwit always get revealed for their true selves in the end.

    Maybe drop her the http://www.chumplady.com link and ask her to check it out. Im certain something here will resonate with her.

    Until then, stay strong mama.

  • Geez if the Daughter Chump in this case gets an STI from this it can’t be blamed solely on alcohol (microbes don’t work that way)
    If the ‘friend’ gets pregnant, also not solely blamable on alcohol (the STBX-friend might never be in Daughter Chump & cheater/addict’s home ever again, but a pregnancy can still happen if there’s youth, fertility & cheating in play, which there already has been & there’s no incentive for it to stop because Daughter Chump isn’t holding boyfriend cheater responsible for his choices (several of them took place for this scenario to arise)
    If Daughter Chump ends up willingly living with, commingling finances & whatever else with a known addict AND a cheater? When she has clear incontrovertible evidence that he’s capable of both?
    Wow! Talk about the combo meal of misery, the self-sentencing to be a warden of policing a substance addiction & serial intimate betrayal Daughter Chump is about to eat & Chump Mom is going to have to deal with.
    I’d ditch them both, getting a new phone plan is the least of Daughter Chump’s worries. And Daughter Chump needs competent individual therapy STAT (medicalese for ASAP).

    Sorry Chump Mom, but wow trans-generational issues of cheating are stunning.

  • I always like to put it back in my kid’s court… “if you’re best friend’s boyfriend cheated on her with another friend ‘cuz booze… what would you tell her to do?”.

    The other alarm for me is why is she carrying both of these friends on HER phone plan… looks like she could use some therapy around boundaries in the bigger scheme of life.

    • The book ‘Cheating In A Nutshell’ has you ask yourself ‘how you would advise a beloved son or daughter of what to do in this situation’, maybe if Chump Mom were to ask Chump Daughter how she might advise Chump Granddaughter in the identical situation (might wake daughter up plus also give mom back some empathy for & influence in Chump Daughter’s situation?)

      Someone send that kid a copy to ‘Cheating In A Nutshell’ anonymously already!

  • He was drinking the night he cheated…doesn’t mean he’s an “alcoholic”.
    And at least the “best friend” had the decency to tell Chump Chip what went down, unlike the cheating boyfriend. Who knows how many times he has cheated on her before.

    • I agree. Just because cheater was drinking that night does not make him an alcoholic. He’s a cheating skunk though. If he were that out of it from drinking, he’d have a tough time performing so I’m not buying he didn’t know what he was doing when he had sex with chump’s friend or best friend forced herself on him. As for the best friend, I give her no quarter and I don’t think decency had anything to do with her “confessing” to chump friend two weeks later. I believe she had designs on chump’s boyfriend and when things didn’t pan out she decided to control the narrative and tell chump. If she couldn’t have him she was going to blow up the relationship one way or another. Daughter Chump should dump cheater, even if he is full of regrets and truly sorry. He’s a weak,stupid man and she’ll regret staying with him down the road.

  • Dear Chump Mom,

    Letting your daughter know she has your love and support is so important ongoing so if/when she gets to the painful acceptance that a partner that cheats, and seems to have little remorse and no guarantee it won’t happen again is not a good choice (her friend had to tell her!) She deserves better.

    Also be kind to yourself. Your strength getting out and gaining a life has set her a positive example that will help her when she is ready.

  • All good feedback. And this is the toughest thing as parents–watching our kids make terrible mistakes. The best you can do is explain your concerns and WHY they are concerns, using specific examples for your life, and keep the line of communication open without endorsing their relationship. And, cut off any and all finding to her is she moves in with him with the explanation that you can’t support her building a life with a toxic person.

    Anf there’s this–cheating is not a mistake. It’s a series of intentional choices, even when alcohol is involved. Alcohol may impair judgement, but it also exposes people’s true character. Your daughter deserves to be cherished and loved and safe in a relationship. You might consider asking her if she felt cherished and loved and safe when she found out her boyfriend had his dick in another woman. Did that make her feel special?

    • Amen! The book ‘Cheating In A Nutshell’ makes the point that whatever act you consider to be the culmination of an incident of cheating has more than one decision that lead up to the decision & for a betrayed person, they had ZERO input into each of these choice points.

  • There are several issues to comment on in this letter.

    The biggest one, to me, is if it has to be a secret, there is something wrong. I grew up in a family of secrets. No one wanted to be judged for another family member’s action. So if grandpa was an alcoholic, it was a secret. If someone slept around, it was a secret. If a family member slept around, the affair partner was to blame (it was another family’s secret). If Mom and Dad got into a fight, they each blamed the other, and the other’s family. If I did something wrong I was just like someone (else) preferably in the other spouse’s family. Everyone else is always responsible, you and you alone are special, and without guilt. It is ridiculous. In addition, the whole blame game ignores generational predispositions toward certain problems. In my opinion, keeping silent does not protect anyone, and instead promotes and prolongs bad behavior.

    My mother taught me to be a good enabler. I’m sure she was taught by her mother, and grandmother, and my dad’s mother was an enabler and prone to dramatic acts and threats. Unfortunately, in prior generations, brothers did kill brothers, or fathers, or uncles. I never heard of females actually murdering each other, but they probably made life miserable enough that other’s wished they were dead.

    None of these people make me who I am, I have choice, but they certainly helped shape who I used to be. FOO issues are real, and should not be ignored.

    Another big issue is that it is rare for one problem to exist by itself. There are usually clusters of behaviors, some are held responsible for other’s happening, but I think you can cheat without being drunk, or steal without being a cheater, or addicted to other harmful things, like porn, without being a drug or alcohol addict. However, many of these activities tend to cluster.

    My mother did not want to hear about enabling behavior, or being codependent, because that would make her “guilty”, in her eyes, of participation in my father’s bad behavior. However, she would ask me why I stayed in a bad relationship. She did not like my smart mouth answer once that she had stayed for 40 years, while I had stayed for only 20. I must be twice as smart, right? She never asked why she had picked my father, or I had picked my husband(s), like any of our past had a thing to do with our present or future choices.

    I have 2 sons. They have been warned. I am not a good secret keeper. I figure I wasted a lot of my precious time having to ferret out information about alcoholism and addictive behaviors. I was not prepared for cheating, or dealing with porn. Evidently those subjects were better held secrets in my FOO. Or perhaps the reasons for some of the murders? Don’t know, and probably never will. But my son’s have been warned. They did not want to hear it, and do not like to talk about it. They probably think that will not happen to them. I thought I was special, too. See how that worked out for me?

    You cannot save another person. Your spouse, or your child, may break your heart because you care. You can try to educate them. I think it is better to try, and to be available to listen and support, but do not get your hopes up, They may not listen, and if so, they probably will feel. I made the choice to understand many why’s, without using them to excuse my father’s behavior. I left husbands who cheated, used porn, and had alcohol problems. I have not seen these behaviors in my son’s, but I won’t have much sympathy if they do create their own problems after being warned. I will tell them to clean up their own mess, if they do. That is the only way I know of to be successful at overcoming any problem.

    If this daughter is smart, she will eventually figure it out. Her mother has warned her. I wonder if the daughter has any idea how lucky she is to have a mother who will help soften the fall when it comes?

  • Chump Mom,

    Attacking or in any way disparaging her loser bs is only going to drive her closer to him, so don’t do that. Instead, talk to her about the following:

    1) Alcohol lifts people’s filters. Meaning that if you ever want to know who the person really is inside and what they think, look closely at what they say and do when they are drunk. Yes, socially we have developed this get out of jail card – “oh he/she was drunk so it doesn’t count”, but in reality it’s the most informative moment and it absolutely counts. It’s the moment you should pay most attention to because it is the most naked, unfiltered, truthful moment you’ll ever get into any person’s inner workings. When people are sober, the veil and the lies come down.

    2) She shouldn’t be living with a bf, any bf whatsoever, ever ever ever. She needs to keep her financial and living independence and keep her own place until she gets married. This is a lesson that was pounded into my head by my parents and something I’m grateful for. I learned pretty quickly how right they were, not so much through personal experience as just seeing what happens to my friends in college (I’m assuming your daughter is fairly young). If she wants to spend all her time as his place, fine, but still…..keep her own place, her own apartment or room….always. Pound that into her head.

    Finally……what on earth are they doing on her phone plan? I had to say this, but for all her great qualities, your daughter is very much insecure. Meaning she doesn’t have good boundaries with people and is essentially seeking to “buy” approval through being helpful and useful to others. She is going through life with a use me sticker on her forehead. I don’t even know how you can address that with her, but you’ve got to try. Somewhere along the road of life, your daughter didn’t learn how to have proper boundaries with others……

    • Ask parents who have buried a child killed by a drunk driver or worse become the caregivers to one injured permanently for life by that driver about how that “x was drunk so it doesn’t count” excuse has affected them.

      The latter happened to a law firm partner at a firm where I went through a #MeToo experience, one night his son (drunk) flew out of a pickup truck bed driven by a (drunk) friend who got into a horrific accident & they’ve been his caregivers due to his traumatic brain injury for decades.

      Unlike me, this #2 partner could not then & still can’t leave the abusive workplace because his boss (the senior partner & theoretically his ‘best friend’ since kindergarten) is who makes health insurance for the son in the persistent vegetative state possible. So he has endured decades of professional abuse so his son can have the care he needs.

      Alcohol may lift veils & maybe in some cases give you more truths, but it also ruins lives.

      • Foolishchump’s Point #2 is worth driving home.

        One of the reasons I would never move in with someone without being married or without a formal legal partnership agreement is because if I believed myself to be in love (or in lust or in serious like) with them, there’s no way I’m going to be objective enough to not protect myself & my own interests because my emotions would be running the show, not my normally rational side.

        I made this point to Broken Toy when he revealed that he was auditioning me to be His Next Schmoopie (thank goodness I was not ‘in love’ with him, it sucked enough to get this Truth Bomb from the safe distance I got it from). While Broken Toy seemed to think he could overcome my objections to him being married (I had other objections to how he conducts his life, we’ll skip discussing them for now), I knew that if Broken Toy stayed legally separated but not divorced from his Missus, whatever was going on between us (not much, thank goodness it was all Lon distance, online, over the phone & emotional) I would not allow to proceed.

        I have a law degree (though my area of specialization is not family & divorce law) & a couple of decades of having seen people living together (married or worse unmarried) blow up & I know better. But people who commingle stuff (finances, lives, families) have a hard enough time when they took the trouble to formalize it first with a marriage contract. The law does little to protect the interests of those who choose to live together with little more than good intentions & hope especially if & when it all falls apart, so why would I take that kind of crazy chance?

        Broken Toy breaks everything he comes into contact with which is why it was easy to get away from him. But I have the benefit of a couple decades of life experience & some education. No way would I let a young person in love with a significant other move in with them without some kind of legal agreement to cover what happens if/when it all collapses.

    • She’s not paying for their phones. They all decided to get a plan together because it saved them money. My daughter had the best credit so they used her name. They each pay a 3rd of the bill. She’s too trusting but she’s not trying to buy their friendship. I only hope they continue to pay their share of the bill but I don’t have high hopes.

      • Time for her to cancel that plan ASAP.
        This is already an expensive enough education for your daughter emotionally speaking, no need for it to cost her some money & her credit score as well.

        • I wish she could but it’s a two year contract. She’d have to pay off the phones and buy out the contract. I think they should all pay it off immediately, or the two creeps pay off their share, but they haven’t discussed it yet. I have a feeling she’ll get burnned over this.

      • And that’s the trouble with Chumps – you are trying to excuse and rationalize when the hard reality is that yes, your daughter is being used for her credit and yes, they are using her, and yes she is buying their friendship. None of this is OK in any respect. She should not be comingling things like phone service with anyone – not a friend, not a bf. YOU need to teach her this…..should have taught her this long ago but it’s not too late yet. You’ve got to get this across to her somehow.

        This isn’t trivial stuff as you are absolutely correct – your daughter will be left holding the bag if they reneg or simply not pay their share of the bill. This is exactly the sort of teaching stuff about boundaries you should have with her. You do NOT put others on your bills, credit, name…NEVER EVER EVER.

        Sorry, Chump Mom, but I’m a little frustrated with you. If you don’t see the problem and your response is to excuse and get defensive, how can your daughter ever figure out what is and isn’t appropriate???? This, none of this is appropriate and it runs way deeper than a loser bf. If not this one, it will be another one because she doesn’t have boundaries.

        • I don’t know what world you live in, but it is incredibly commonplace for people of all ages these days to join together on a phone plan. Literally every single person I know does this, currently, with family and friends alike. So, like, calm down with the judgement here.

    • “2) She shouldn’t be living with a bf, any bf whatsoever, ever ever ever. She needs to keep her financial and living independence and keep her own place until she gets married. This is a lesson that was pounded into my head by my parents and something I’m grateful for. I learned pretty quickly how right they were, not so much through personal experience as just seeing what happens to my friends in college (I’m assuming your daughter is fairly young). If she wants to spend all her time as his place, fine, but still…..keep her own place, her own apartment or room….always. Pound that into her head.”

      Again, disagree with this outdated information. Sure, keep your finances separate until you’re quite certain that you are with your forever person…and even them, I advocate for relatively separate finances but with a joint account. However, living with someone prior to marriage is, in fact, the BEST way to determine whether you should marry them. Maybe you’re feelings stem from some religious piousness on the subject, but you’re incorrect on a fundamental level. If more people lived together prior to marriage then there would be fewer divorces because there would be more pre-marital realizations that some people may make good boyfriends, but terrible life partners.

      This type of advice is seriously old and not useful.

      • I agree that moral concerns over cohabitation are outdated. They stem from a time when women who did not live with their partners were assumed not to have premarital sex. At the same time, moving in together can be risky. Under unfavorable conditions, people may be forced to live with an abusive partner for a long time because they cannot find their own accommodation quickly (especially with ever-increasing rents). Lack of privacy can also be a huge issue if the partner turns out to be abusive and controlling. Therefore, in my view, living together is still a major life decision (even if not as serious as marriage or pregnancy) and shouldn’t be taken lightly. Historically, women were not expected to have a household of their own (and still have sex – if they wanted to). I think we should cherish the fact that this is possible today.

  • I wish she could but it’s a two year contract. She’d have to pay off the phones and buy out the contract. I think they should all pay it off immediately, or the two creeps pay off their share, but they haven’t discussed it yet. I have a feeling she’ll get burnned over this.

    • It is on you to teach your daughter basic common sense boundaries like you don’t EVER comingle any kind or bills, finances, allow people to use your credit standing, etc. no matter how much cheaper that would be. That’s an absurd excuse. Of course it’s cheaper to use someone, their credit, their standing…..duh….doesn’t mean you actually let them use you.

      This is basic boundaries stuff she should have been taught and needs to be taught by YOU. Don’t sleep on this and yes, you are correct, she’ll probably get burnt and end up learning the hard way that you don’t do this. Still…preach because you have nothing to lose here. Your daughter needs boundaries.

      • @ Foolishchump You’re being extremely rude! She’s an adult and lives on her own. I had no idea they even did it until this whole thing happened. People make mistakes and learn, it doesn’t make her a bad person or me. She knows boundaries. You can stop insulting her and me.

        • ChumpMom, young people and friends sharing a phone plan is pretty common these days. I have had several au-pairs from the US with these schemes and my boyfriend also did this with his friends.

          I wouldn’t necessarily see this as a great marker for low boundaries. It was a group of coupled up friends and they felt like family or close kin to your daughter. I for my part remember how I had these feelings towards my university crew after leaving home.

          Now what your daughter needs to do is indeed cancel the scheme asap and try and get the lump sum for the monthly payments off bf and ‘friend’. I would also send something official to the company that she is not carrying any credit in her name for any further contracts with these two people.

          In our family we always practiced that we would only lend money (guarantees or credit) up to a sum that we’d be okay with to loose. Sometimes people can’t pay you back for other reasons. Maybe this would be a good compromise for future boundaries with friends for your adult daughter.

          And you are quite right,she’s an adult and gets to decide how to handle business dealings and contracts.

          • Exactly. It’s so expensive for young people to live on their own these days. It doesn’t surprise me they would try to save pennies wherever they can. And she’s know them for years. She had no way of knowing this would happen.
            I think once she’s out of this initial shocked state she’ll want to take care of the phone issue.

  • My dad wasn’t a cheater but was physically and emotionally abusive, and I’m not 100% sure but if I had to put my life on it I’d say my mom was a cheater (she just has never owned up to it). Besides the point, both of my parents had abusive tendencies, yet I somehow turned out to be super loyal and wouldn’t hurt a fly. Do I have my moments of emotional turbulence? Sure, but who doesn’t when their husband isn’t coming home from work and you’re finding him mingling with OW.

    I truly believe we all end up who we want to be. However, I do think we choose people who remind of us of our parents, wanting so hard to prove to them we are worthy. My XH was so emotionally abusive and was a cheater. I wanted so bad to prove to him I was the ONE. Didn’t workout, he still didn’t choose me.

    How we grow up really impacts us no matter how we turn out as individuals. It’s just how it is.

    • You’re right Alice. My parents were both abusive physically and verbally. Mom was a cheater, dad enabler. Then mom got her degrees, left dad, and started using my credit while in college to bolster her lifestyle and convinced me I needed to go bankrupt for a clean slate. Fast forward to first H who used and ruined my credit. Again, current H who did the same. My picker was busted by all that abuse ‘til now. I’m currently trying to fix my finances and credit. And teach my kid never ever to commingle finances or credit and always have her own bank account (& secret pw). It’s hard fixing ourselves with all this conditioning of toxic family. But I’m finally doing it at freakin’ 49. Better late than never! I have hope.

      • ChumpMVP, it’s very sad that we are basically doomed from the beginning when we grow up in a toxic environment. Luckily, we see the light now and know what needs to be done. It makes me nervous to be in a relationship again because I don’t know if I can trust myself to know who’s good and who’s not. I really thought XH was great at the time, it’s actually stressful to think how I’m going to do on this next round when it comes time.

  • Here is what makes me wonder:

    1. Is Chump Chip paying for the whole cell phone plan, or have to nag for the money? Then she’s an enabler. Do the other two pay on time and regularly? Then it’s a young person way of saving money.
    2. Was Dad an alcoholic? Because Chip’s willingness to jump in to save the BF from his drinking suggests she’s learned it’s her job to rescue other people.

    • Either way on the phone plan, she should stop doing this–and that goes also for sharing Netflix, etc. If you’re willing to put your credit and money on the line, you attract leeches.

  • This happened to me with my boyfriend although they didn’t have sex. I let it slide for him and didn’t speak to my friend again. We got married and surprise surprise…. he had an affair.

    Tell her to run! Don’t look back.

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