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UBT: ‘He Played Me Too’

You guys won’t believe the letters I get from Other Women wanting my advice. I know, it’s like gnats wanting wisdom from a bug zapper. But really, it happens.

Behold a recent missive:

Dear Chump Lady,

I’m the other woman. Well, actually I refused to be the other woman. We fell in love, he said he loved me. He told me he had an understanding with his wife to have sex with other women because they had been sleeping separately for years. He told me they didn’t even stay in the same room except with the kids and they didn’t touch and didn’t talk to each other except for domestic stuff. I told him he needed to tell her he wanted to divorce and he did (he said he did!). Only after that I slept with him. She knew I existed.

He freaked out about losing his kids so he chose to suck it up and stay with her. I immediately stepped out because I didn’t accept to be the other woman. He contacted me several times and were in touch for over a year and I insisted I wouldn’t accept to be with him unless he told her he would divorce and moved out. He did. She wanted to try reconciliation. He said no but they told the kids he was moving out temporarily. She said if he saw me, they would divorce. He told her he wanted to see me and he moved out. We were looking for bed linen! To be clear, he intended to negotiate seeing the kids every day, he was looking for an apartment close to them. I slept with him again, but then he said he was missing his kids and wanted to give them a family and that seeing them even if it was everyday wasn’t enough so he was considering going back. He claims he would choose me but wants to live with the kids.

When I asked what would he said to her about me, he replied he would lie and he would do “whatever it takes” so she accepted him back. I felt like a whore when I heard he intended to lie to her. I couldn’t even look at myself. Manipulated and used! I contacted his wife to tell her I was sorry and felt dirty because I thought she knew he was with me but instead he was going to lie to her. I told her I felt terrified because I didn’t know what was true and what was false and he was manipulating both of us. She told me they never had an understanding to have sex with other people. He told me after my message she wanted to divorce. I know your cake theory but I can’t know now what’s true and false about his marriage and our relationship. He said he just married her because he was having a hard time and needed a family. He said he loves me. I don’t want him (I feel unsafe with all his lies) but I get crazy thinking about them reconciling. I’m sure he will tell her I meant nothing and he wants a family. I get crazy thinking she will accept him even if she doesn’t believe him!

I find that disgusting and unfair for women. I know how humiliated she must feel — because I feel humiliated too, so I would be furious if she took him back. I feel so used. I’m so sorry about how he treats her. What’s the truth? I’m sorry about all the chump ladies who blame the other woman but to be honest I feel he played me too. Did he do that on purpose? Was anything true at all? Does he love me? Does he love her? Does he just want cake? Is he a narcissistic? Did I do the right thing by telling her?

Thank you!

Not a bad person

You know where this is going? Hold your cookies. The Universal Bullshit Translator is shifting into gear…

Dear Chump Lady,

I’m the other woman. Well, actually I refused to be the other woman.

I refuse reality. I am whoever I imagine I am.

See also “Not a bad person.”

We fell in love, he said he loved me. He told me he had an understanding with his wife to have sex with other women because they had been sleeping separately for years.

This is textbook ‘I Am the Other Woman.’

He told me they didn’t even stay in the same room except with the kids and they didn’t touch and didn’t talk to each other except for domestic stuff.

They wore hazmat suits and had bargepoles. “I AM NOT TOUCHING YOU!” he would announce before entering any room. “WE ARE HAVING CRINKLE-CUT FRENCH FRIES FOR DINNER” she would reply. This was permissible as it was domestic. “YOUR KETCHUP CANNOT TOUCH MY KETCHUP.” “OKAY!”

I told him he needed to tell her he wanted to divorce and he did (he said he did!). Only after that I slept with him. She knew I existed.

He loves me so much, he must be reminded to leave his wife.

I know his wife exists by her refusal to sign the divorce decree.

I only fuck a man after he leaves his family. #lady

He freaked out about losing his kids so he chose to suck it up and stay with her. I immediately stepped out because I didn’t accept to be the other woman. He contacted me several times and were in touch for over a year and I insisted I wouldn’t accept to be with him unless he told her he would divorce and moved out. He did.

He freaked out about losing half his income, so he chose to keep cheating on her with me.

She wanted to try reconciliation. He said no but they told the kids he was moving out temporarily.

She threw his ass out.

She said if he saw me, they would divorce. He told her he wanted to see me and he moved out.

She threw his ass out.

We were looking for bed linen!

IT WAS REAL! Our love is not a poly-cotton blend! It’s a high-thread count Egyptian linen!

To be clear, he intended to negotiate seeing the kids every day, he was looking for an apartment close to them. I slept with him again, but then he said he was missing his kids and wanted to give them a family and that seeing them even if it was everyday wasn’t enough so he was considering going back. He claims he would choose me but wants to live with the kids.

He calculated child support. I could still be his side-fuck tho.

When I asked what would he said to her about me, he replied he would lie and he would do “whatever it takes” so she accepted him back.

And this is completely consistent with a guy who has an open marriage and can sleep with whomever he wants to.

I felt like a whore when I heard he intended to lie to her.

It began to occur to me, perhaps, just maybe, I was not as special as I first thought.

I couldn’t even look at myself. Manipulated and used!

Stuck with the Bed, Bath and Beyond receipts!

I contacted his wife to tell her I was sorry and felt dirty because I thought she knew he was with me, but instead he was going to lie to her.

Yes, I just care about truth. (I WILL WIN THIS PICK ME DANCE). Honesty. (BOW BEFORE ME.) Transparency. (EAT DIRT MOTHERFUCKER.)

I told her I felt terrified because I didn’t know what was true and what was false and he was manipulating both of us.

I’ve been fucking her husband for years. She should care about my feelings.

She told me they never had an understanding to have sex with other people. He told me after my message she wanted to divorce. I know your cake theory but I can’t know now what’s true and false about his marriage and our relationship.

I am certain she knew of my existence! A lying liar told me so!

He said he just married her because he was having a hard time and needed a family.

He’s been using me as a side-dish fuck. I should care about his feelings. The irony of this is completely lost on me.

He said he loves me. I don’t want him (I feel unsafe with all his lies) but I get crazy thinking about them reconciling.

I want him.

I’m sure he will tell her I meant nothing and he wants a family.

He has a family. I meant nothing.

I get crazy thinking she will accept him even if she doesn’t believe him!

That’s how much I DON’T CARE!

I find that disgusting and unfair for women.

I fucked a married woman’s husband, conspired against her, risked her health, and now I’m a born-again feminist. #disgusting

I know how humiliated she must feel — because I feel humiliated too, so I would be furious if she took him back.

I just care about HER feelings! I would be furious if she took him back and enjoyed the high-thread count sheets I purchased.

I feel so used. I’m so sorry about how he treats her.

Since I got thrown under the bus, I have a newfound appreciation for her welfare.

What’s the truth?

UBT: You suck. Work on that.

I’m sorry about all the chump ladies who blame the other woman but to be honest I feel he played me too.

Yeah, we’re all equal. OMG, go boil your head.

Did he do that on purpose?

Yes, of course he did.

Was anything true at all?

The bed linens. They were real.

Does he love me?

He loves his dick.

Does he love her?

He loves his dick.

Does he just want cake?


Is he narcissistic?

Yes, you have that in common.

Did I do the right thing by telling her?

Yes, but with all the wrong motives.

Thank you!

Not a bad person

A pretty dreadful person, but thank you for the UBT fodder.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at Read more about submission guidelines.
    • “… it’s like gnats wanting wisdom from a bug zapper.”


      Like cheaters, OW’s are all the same.

      Snivelling whiny cunt. Such self centered stupidity too, does this whore *really* think she’s going to get sympathy from *us*? ????????

      Yes, you are totally a *bad person*, and I hope you never have another happy moment.

      • “Snivelling whiny cunt” ????????????What a great description.

        One of the OWs I’ve had to deal with claimed to STBX that I ‘wasnt keeping my promises’ because I contacted her when I told him I wouldn’t. Because that whore values honesty and promises ????

    • Where do these crazies come from? Felt like a whore and can’t look at herself? She is a whore and I wouldn’t be able to look at myself either. What a POS!

      • wait, I’m confused.

        I mean the mental gymnastics of this are too much for me EVEN NOW…

        So she’s “NOT a bad person” — but she IS someone who ADMITS she told him for MONTHS to leave his wife and children ALL – FOR – HER.

        WOW…. WTF is a bad person if that’s^^^ not??

        So she didn’t burn the house down with the wife and kids in it.

        Would THAT make her a “bad person”?? (Not in her world).

        • Mmmm…. i’m married… shouldn’t that be the narcissist little slut’s first clue to run away. Hope scumbag’s wife kicks him out and takes his cheating ass to the cleaners.
          Don’t feel sorry for the narcissistic slut. She got played!! Lol!! Great story!!

          • I am going to say something that will be very unfavorable, I’m sure, but give me some leeway here to point something out…let me try to play devil’s advocate….because I am a chump, just like everyone here…I was chumped by a husband of 25 years who dated me five years prior to marriage and abandoned what I thought was a pretty happy marriage – like an 8 out of 10 – for a 29 year old girl…

            We were all fooled or duped by our cheaters. For the most part, all of us thought we were in happy relationships when we were really chumps. Many of us didn’t see it coming.

            Why, then, do we all presume the other woman should not be chumped by our cheaters, too? Why do we hold these OW to some higher cheater detection than ourselves?

            I’ve watched, with my own eyes, how this process works…at my workplace. I watched two married coworkers go from loving marriages to work friends, to work spouses, to convincing themselves they, together, were meant to be. And, yes, it made me sick because I saw through these people how my ex husband must have fallen for the twu-wuv scenario with his coworker. But it is an intricate, delicate dance – when does the relationship flip to something serious?

            Now, I, having experienced this deception with my own 25-year marriage, probably should have told the spouses. But, when, exactly should I have mentioned it? When they chatted in the break room daily? When they talked in each others’ cubes? When they started sharing lunch at the picnic table? When he changed the headlight in her car? When is the point at which you feel certain you should say something? To alert the spouse? To shame the coworker? Is it even your place to say anything???

            Sure, they probably have feelings for each other…but when is it flirtation? When is it wrong? You don’t want to make the mistake and ruin two marriages by being wrong.

            We fell for lies. The OW/OM fell for lies…unhappy marriage, no sex, argue, together for the children, don’t want to give up the house….it’s pretty much always the same dialog…but there are people who are in unhappy marriages…that don’t have sex…that argue…and most people want a soft spot to land, should they leave…right or wrong, that’s what happens. My ex had a soft spot to land in his 29 year old girlfriend’s apartment.

            I’m not even exactly sure what I’m saying here except that…we’re all human. We were duped by a cheater…but I know…I KNOW my ex’s girlfriend/fiance was duped by him too…I’m sure he claimed pure unhappiness with me to get into her pants…

            I guess what I’m saying is, yes, in a perfect world the love interest of the cheater would say, “tell your wife/husband you’re unhappy, get a divorce, wait a year or two until you’re over it and then come see me or date.” But everyone wants a soft spot to land – and doesn’t want to think about how it affects the duped.

            Until there is shame associated with leaving your spouse, nothing will change…So (for women) why call these women whores and every other bad word (yes, I have done it, too!)? Because all we’re doing is bringing women down. There is no shame in women wanting and liking sex – do not use the ‘whore’ word to describe women who involve themselves with married men. They are either fools, like us, or self-absorbed. (Sorry for focusing on the women’s issue, for the men that are reading…)

            I hope this babble makes some sense….

            • No, your babble unfortunately does not make sense. The reason is simple – the OW can never, never, never be defended because HE WAS MARRIED. HE WAS MARRIED. HE WAS MARRIED. I don’t care if the Cheater Husband is married to the Chainsaw Manson Monster – he should get his ducks in a row – be a man – get a divorce and then chase all the dirty skirts he wants to. Your defense of the OW is unfortunately both insulting and hurtful to many Chumps. The only time an OW can even remotely be considered a Chump is if the Cheater Husband lived an entirely double life and told her he was single. But this is not the case. If it helps you in your pain to be less angry at the OW than the Cheater – than so be it – as the Beattle song says “Whatever gets you through the night…it’s alright, it’s alright” But I fear you are giving a pass to the OW out of self-blaming and co-dependency. Know that they suck – the Cheater and the OW – they suck. Can people change? I don’t know. Can a Cheater become a Unicorn? I don’t know – as Chump Lady says – it’s possible, just haven’t seen any. Can an OW change and be remorseful? I don’t know – if either are sex addicts with a splash of Narc on top of it, I’d be more inclined to bet No. The truth hurts and it’s scary to think there are psychopathic and sociopathic people – and even more frightening to know/wonder if you’re sleeping next to one. Trust me I know…..I wish I didn’t – but I know. Be kind to yourself – just step up and over the OW – she doesn’t want/need your defense.

            • You wrote: “There is no shame in women wanting and liking sex..” OH YES THERE IS AND IT’S HAVING SEX WITH A MARRIED MAN – THERE IS SHAME IN FKING A MARRIED MAN. And for the record, your statement “fools like us” is again insulting to Chumps. No Chump is a fool. We may have been deceived but we are not fools.

              • Jo, I am just as mad at the other woman as you are…don’t go there with me!! I am a chump, too!!! Don’t for one minute try to tell me my pain or assume you know how I am dealing with my pain. Don’t for one minute tell me I am insulting chumps.

                I am saying that we were deceived – we were fooled. It is not impossible other women were fooled by the same man. Blame the cheat. Blame the man/woman who played with the feelings of women/men. Blame the DECEIVER – man or woman.

                Do I give a pass to the woman that stole my husband? NO!!! But, do I think she was lied to just as I was? YES! Because that’s what cheaters do!

                And, I do not like women, or men, calling women a ‘whore’. That term is misogynistic, if you ask me. Men are not called whores no matter how many women they conquer. It is a term to bring down women. Men like sex. Women like sex. PERIOD!

                That is an issue apart and separate from people sleeping with married persons.

            • Dear God, what a load of horse shit.

              OW/OM are *whores*.

              Yes, the cheater sucks *more*, but OW/OM still *suck*.

              Your defence of them, predicated on your assumption that they were ‘fooled’ just as the chump was, is hugely flawed.

              Little point in saying this to you, since you’re clearly floating around in some la-la land of patting yourself on the back for being such a ‘nice’ person that you don’t condemn these *whores*, but once again, you are determinedly comparing apples and oranges.

              Chump’s are *unknowing*. Ow/OM are *whores* who know *exactly* what they are doing.

              You’re full of sanctimonious bullshit, and you make me vomit. Go and boil your stupid head.

              Whores, whores, whores. ????????????

            • Duped,
              I like CL’s line, “people don’t fall in love over the photocopier”
              It takes continual investing that could’ve been stopped many times over.
              People with morals would sense that there’s an attraction
              and nip in the bud.
              Why? Because they made vows to somebody else.
              Or because they know the person they are falling in love with made vows to somebody else.
              They would put the brakes on the friendship knowing that there was an undertone of a sexual vibe.
              People who are selfish and enjoy all the attention, continue to feed the fun…. If they have any common sense at all they would know where the ‘we are just such great friends with a spark’ train leads.
              They play with fire, then the house burns down and they blame the people who know how to use fire extinguishers.

              • “They play with fire, then the house burns down and they blame the people who know how to use fire extinguishers.”

                Exactly, do these fuckwits ever get that we have been hit on too. We didn’t go there, and it certainly wasn’t because our spouse was perfect, he/she had faults too.

              • So true. When I was married, I was hit on *many* times. I *never* responded, because I was *married*!

                Anyone who is hit on by a married person, and *responds*, is a piece of shit *whore*.
                ‘Duped’ is’ one of those ‘.

                She attempts to secure the’moral high ground’ with her waffling defence of OW/OM’s, thereby implying the rest of us, who naturally *loathe and despise* the OW/OM, are somehow lacking, whilst she is the so superior ‘evolved’ person.

                I think it was Kara who pointed out that people who persist in defending lowlife OW/OM, have a vein of OW/OM themselves, and I think that’s what we’ve got here, in ‘Duped’.

            • Duped – It really is difficult to believe that you were cheated on. You describe watching coworkers in the throes of at least an emotional affair and you ask if it’s even your place to say something. If you, in fact, had been cheated on you would know the humiliation and rage of being “duped” publicly while bystanders watched and gossiped about you and your marriage. There have been OW who have commented on CL in the past posing as Chumps who feel the need to defend OW and their motives. One of their themes is that they were lied to and manipulated as well as the Chumps . . . they were victims, not whores. Your post sounds awfully familiar. OW/OM and Cheaters are WHORES. If that is offensive to you, it may be time to take a deep dive into your own morals and ethics. Just sayin’.

              • ????

                I am getting a bit tired of folks coming on here and trying to preach. This isn’t the place for that.

                Many folks here are hurting and working through pain, they need to be able to feel supported, not preached at by someone with other motives.

              • Well, you’ve all got me figured out and decided to burn me at the stake.

                I was cheated on by a husband of 25 years. He convinced me to move to another state when I didn’t want to – to make HIM happy. I left a home that I loved and cared for for 21 years. I left friends I loved and cared for. I moved to a state in which I never wanted to live so he could escape the rat race. He let me design our dream retirement home for over a year. And, while we were living in a rental home, two months before our dream retirement home was to be ready for us, he told me he was leaving me. Completely out of the blue. He was unhappy – except he presented it as me that was unhappy. He left me, at 50 years of age, in a rental home with a lease due to expire in a month. He left me in winter. He left me with no job. He left me with two dogs. He left me with everything we owned in storage. He moved out and into his 29 year old girlfriend’s apartment in another state. He would not tell me where he lived. I had to look it up on spokeo. He hasn’t spoken to me since the day he left. He gave no good explanation. He just vanished. I had to clean everything we owned out of storage myself, find a job, find a place to live, care for our dogs… I had known, dated, and been married to this man for 30+ years and he vanished for a woman half his age! And treated me like nothing. I was ready to commit suicide. I asked him if he’d take care of the dogs if I did. He told my sister and my sister nearly had me committed. My ex husband could only be bothered to notify someone who might actually care.

                Do I effing hate the 29 year old GIRL that stole my husband from me by talking about her vagina to him at work?! HELL YES!!! Do I want to see Karma pay her and him a visit?! HELL YES!!! She is an entitled piece of shit millennial that is now living off my ex husband and getting her college degree paid for by him. I am, meanwhile, scraping together money to pay taxes on my spousal support. Am I angry like you all are?! HELL YES! Do I want to see her find some guy her own age and leave my ex crying in the dirt? Yes! I effing do!

                But, I am a feminist. There is no term for men that sleep around. There is for women – it’s called whore. The term, whether you want to admit it or not, makes women feel they are wrong for liking sex. Period. Is sex with a married man wrong? Yes! But, is sex between a consenting, available man and a women wrong? No. So I hate it when women use the term whore against other women. We are feeding the misogyny we are subjected to every day from men!

                THIS is not what RBG fought for…for us to tear each other apart with terms that make us feel dirty for our sexuality.

                You want to call the other woman a c*nt for sleeping with your husband?! Fine! I’ve done the same thing! You want to call her a b*tch for talking to your husband at work about her vagina?! Fine! You want to call her an abbreviated Ho? Even that does not bother me. But whore crosses a line – it takes us into the realm where we are like men making women feel bad about liking sex.

                The fact of the matter is that our husbands or ex-husbands lied to their affair partners like they lied to us. Maybe it’s too soon for some of you to accept that and to put the blame back onto the cheater. But I am not deluded enough to think that my husband didn’t tell his, now 30-year-old fiance, that I was a nag and a hag and was never happy and never wanted sex with him and we never did anything fun and he lived under this cloud of misery. Because THAT is what every man that has an affair does…he lies, he cheats, he gaslights, he blames, he runs away, he hides, he’s pathetic. So, some insecure, naive girl, or girl with daddy issues, or girl that wants a sugar daddy comes along and believes she can save him from his misery at that hands of his wife…and she falls for it…I wager to think that the cheater is still the one to blame.

                And, why didn’t I report the work colleagues that were having an affair? Because I’m not the marriage police at my workplace. Period. Not my monkeys, not my circus.

              • For Duped,
                Sorry couldn’t post in the right place. What happened to you is &@%#*^><€¥• My heart goes out to you. I’m a feminist too -as I think are many people are on this site.
                I think your ex and his Shmoopie are both whores!
                I think many of us have reclaimed the misogynistic words and give them our own meaning because of what we’ve been through.
                For me, it has NOTHING to do with liking sex; it’s about cheaters creating situations that cause others to ear life altering shit sandwiches and usually sex just happens to be a part of that. I hate the ‘C’ word, and I can’t lie, I don’t love it when men use it on this site. However I did use that term to refer to both my ex and his accomplice in a correspondence to him.
                It’s not about sex. It’s about betrayal, using, lying, manipulating
                and for some of us discarding. If the OW knows the guy’s married, she knows the guy’s married. Regardless of what lies he may have told her, she knows what she needs to know and I feel I can call or what I want. For me, ‘whore’ is just a word that packs a punch regardless of its original meaning. I don’t think she’s too worried about what people think of her or about furthering the cause of women.
                Take care.

              • Duped.

                It. Does. Not. Matter if the cheater lied to the whore about the state of the marriage.

                The *point* is the whore *knew he was married and fucked him anyway*.

                It. Does. Not. Matter what rationalisations whores of either sex choose to cook up to excuse their behaviour.

                Whores *know* the man/woman they’re fucking is *married*.

                People with character, integrity and a moral compass *do not fuck married people*.

                I really don’t have the time or the crayons to explain this fundamental fact any further.

    • I have not read all the comments but Dear Velvet Hammer, hope it is ok to use your expression, the one that says it all:
      ” Sweet Smoking Jesus”

      ( I actually felt dizzy reading the sad woes of the OW)

    • I found out after 35 years of marriage and my husband’s 2nd affair that I was the OW when we first started dating. I did not know he was in an exclusive 8 month relationship when he met me. I was so pissed when I found out – I said I would never have dated him if I had known. His response? “Why are you so upset? I picked you and left her!” Once a cheater always a cheater.

      • Moving On, I found out after 21 years of marriage that when our relationship started, I was probably the OW. Great big sucker-punch to the gut! When we first started dating, he had told me his Xwife was a crazy, drug addict cheater….and ALL of his family and friends, and her family confirmed it. When we met, we were both going through divorces from our high school sweethearts…we had both already filed for divorce, been separated for months and ready to move on. Imagine my surprise when xwife turns out to be the other woman in my marriage all those years later! Why would he want to be with a crazy, drug addict cheater?? After I filed for divorce, i searched for their divorce records online and discovered he wasn’t in the process of divorcing her when we met. SHE filed for divorce weeks AFTER he and I started dating! My whole marriage was a lie and I was an OW….something I despise.

    • It does happen that some people genuinely think someone is single when they first start to date and I have seen CL had compassion on them in that exact moment. If they REALLY did not know, they were a victim…


      The second they know, if they don’t immediately exit they they instantaneously turn into an OW/OM with all rights and privileges thereby granted.

      Zero grace period for “we were already in love by that point so I ….. “

  • Yikes!

    I think we should all take a moment to get ourselves in check and NOT be deluded like this woman.

    I’m sorry to any of my past hoe friends – but these hoes are disgusting!!

    • Because they are deluding themselves into thinking they are the main dish… they actually think their twu wives is superior to years of a relationship, marriage children etc…

      • It’s a massive ego rush, I imagine. In reality, they’re a piece of ass used as an escape from adulting.

        Married cheaters and their APs disgust me. Everything about them is absolutely shameful. I know CL and a lot of others act like the APs aren’t the problem and admittedly, they’re not the ones who made a commitment to you. However, they are complicit in being a giant piece of shit and knowingly trying to ruin your life. Not one of them, could hold a candle to what the spouse does. Turns out, it’s a lot easier just being a sneaky whore instead of raising kids, paying bills, and being an adult.

        • Right, we are supposed to respect them because they made no committment to us. Well we made no committment to them, so we don’t owe them anything either. No respect, nothing. We did make a committment to the cheater, and if there are children, we try to give them some respect for that.

          I would never do anything or say anything directly to the OW in disrespect, simply because my son has to put up with her. And I wouldn’t lower myself to her level. But, I also wouldn’t piss on her if she was dying of thrist.

        • “I know CL and a lot of others act like the APs aren’t the problem…”

          CL doesn’t do this, she says the OW/OM sucks, but the cheaters suck *more*.

          It’s just that once cheating has been discovered, what you have is a cheater with all the entitlement that goes with that. The OW/OM whores are basically irrelevant, they’re interchangeable. In the cheater mindset, any kibble dispenser is much like another.

    • Because they think they are superior to the wife. Because of all the lies the cheater has told them, and they fell for it.

    • I love seeing other woman posts, some have the audacity to write to a blog specifically for woman who have been cheated on, physically abused, sexually abused, manipulated, gaslighted to an extent that you even forget who you are All with dealing with kids sometimes. BUT damn you found out he wasn’t leaving his WIFE. Ouch that pain must be unbearable… lmao. This is literally a Netflix movie like watch a Netflix movie and you’ll know the outcome of your relationship if you’re with another man who is MARRIED. I love chump lady and I love all you chumps honestly it feels like Tuesday is right around the corner with how good things have been lately. I hope you guys have a good day!!!

        • And most of these ow’s willingly hide away. If she didn’t go along with that, there would be fewer of them, and the wife would find out sooner, and get out of the situation sooner. Yes it is true that she doesn’t owe the wife anything. It is also true that the wife owes her nothing. No repsect, no sympathy, nothing.

          The OW in most casses goes along with that financial theft. She knows her gifts and money are coming from marriage funds and that the wife is being decieved for her benefit. She keeps quiet because she is getting something out of it, and she knows what she is.

          In my case I never spend much time after the first couple days even thinking about the whore. Still don’t, at least not until she messed with my son and his family. Even then I blame my ex, because he went along with it.

          Having said that, she is simply a whore, and not worthy of any respect. Anymore than he is. The only respect I retained for my ex, was as my sons father, and that is pretty thin right now after their latest antics.

        • I hate that so many women lose a lot of their retirement.

          I was fortunate, we waived each other’s retirement, though he had more in his than I did. He gambled and racked up lots of debt, so he crashed and burned.

          I still have a healthy retirement fund, though I worked for many more years to build it.

      • Same to you sis!!!

        And yeah none of this shit ever bothers them until it happens to THEM. They’re not doing anything wrong, lying to anyone, until someone is doing THEM wrong and then they grow a conscience and suddenly they’re feminists who just have to let the wife know that the man is a lying liar! We have to stick together sisters! The humanity of him lying to us both. I mean she was okay when he was just lying to YOU and she was in on it, but this is WRONG periodttt.

        Sorry for the ramble there, I get carried away.

      • It’s not just for women. The blog is for everyone.

        But strangely only OW write to me from the AP perspective. I think I’ve gotten one OM letter in all my years doing this.

          • I think it’s both women are pushed to have to justify themselves more, and also we’re pushed to compete with each other over men.

            Not that men aren’t pushed to compete with each other in their own way, but I think men are socialized to just compete to be the top dog, while women are socialized to be catty and fight over men. Get two women fighting over a man and one of the women is supposed to come out the “winner” over the other, but the man wins no matter what because he gets a woman either way, just depends on who Pick Me Dances harder. Women are told to see each other as enemies with a relationship being the zero-sum prize.

            I don’t really see two men fighting over a woman though. There are plenty of Chump men in CN who seemed more to try to reconcile and beg their cheating spouses rather than fight with or confront the affair partners and try to battle it out with him.

            There’s definitely chump men AND chump women, but there is a different dynamic between the genders. At least as far as concerns the heteronormative relationships.

              • Such a moronic mindset. Yes, I ‘won’ a liar and abuser, makes me so much better than you. Not.

                Any woman who competes for a man has no sense of self-worth.

                “If I have to compete for your attention, then fuck your attention”.

              • Yes! I heard the same.

                What did she win? A narcissistic pathological liar with financial immaturity and massive debt, an STD, various addictions, and a rapidly aging body. Anything said/done/gifted to her was said/done/given to me first. You want him? Enjoy the sloppy seconds.

                My counsel said 9 times out of 10, the OW is a drop down. Most definitely!

              • Same here, didn’t know there was a competition until the game was over. Dang I know I could have won the swimsuit competition.

                But, she took home the turd.

          • That and men tend to keep their sex shananigans on the down low.

            That is how we end up getting lied to for years. ????

        • There are plenty of chump men out there. Some days I think it’s just three other guys and me on here, though. Statistics (and common sense) say women cheat as much men, but men are less likely to go out on the Internet and post about it. It’s very humiliating.

          • I think that still goes back to my point about women being socialized to one up each other fighting over a man. The OW always seems to have this sense of bragging about how they “won” or a sense of superiority over the spouse. So when an OW feels like she “won” the Pick Me Dance, she brags about it. All these articles of OW writing about how their relationship with cheater was Tru Wuv or letters like this of Poor Me are two sides of the same coin with the same subtext: I’m the Better Woman. I’m Speshul. He Should Choose Me.

            It’s the same thing with women who are the cheaters. It’s all about being Better. I’m better than his exes, I’m the Best, I deserve the Best. I’m Even Better Than Other Women Who Cheat Because My Luv is Twu Wuv.

            With cheating men, at least the ones who talk about it, the theme that runs with them is more like, I Want. I Want to fuck as many women as I feel like. I Want my wife to pay attention to me 24/7 and damnitt she stopped doing that once we had kids. I Want a porn star spouse, but my wife isn’t that. I Want my dick to be serviced. Male affair partner it’s I Want this man’s wife and I’m entitled to her. I Want to have sex with that woman even though she’s my best friend’s girlfriend.

            With cheating women and affair partners, the theme is I’m Better Than. With cheating men and affair partners, it’s I Want. Both are extremely selfish, but one side seems more rooted in self-centered entitlement and the other seems rooted in self-aggrandizement.

            • Good analysis.

              As TtW puts it though, there’s also an element of shame. Historically, men who have been cheated on are nearly always mocked and laughed at, “cuckold’s all awry”, “wearing his horns”, etc etc.

              The implication of course, if you were a *real man* your wife wouldn’t have to cheat on you.

              • Oh definitely, there’s the added layer of shame of not being man enough. But I see that reflected in both genders with the RIC. Like Esther Perel and her ilk pushing the idea that if wives are sexy enough and put out enough their husbands won’t cheat. Men need to be good enough providers, kiss their wive’s asses, earn more money, etc.

                Same garbage message of being “enough” but for men it’s aimed at how much they earn or give, and with women it’s how much sex do you put out, how attractive are you. It’s two ends of the same line though. The “Be Good Enough” spectrum.

              • True, and it is just as unfair to them as “if she had kept him satisfied, he wouldn’t have cheated”

          • Yep. Men post about it less than women. Even though it’s anecdotal, in my life, I’ve known so many women cheaters especially in the 30s-40s range.

            My ex wife cheated on me. My best friend’s ex fiancé cheated on him. My brother’s ex wife cheated on him. My brother’s best friend cheated on him with her boss. My friend and former coworker’s wife cheated on him with their kid‘s basketball coach.

            We have a generation of women out there who need attention like a drug addict needs a fix. They’re super selfish, obsessed with social media, and ready to dismiss anyone if they’re unhappy for five minutes.

          • Yes please – my STBX doesn’t fit the bill for ‘winning’ in a singular sense. She and her friend(s) we’re running a book of men which were updated every week with new conquests. Yes, it’s humiliating for me, but downright mortifying for my teenage kids and any mutual friends. It’s very hard to start an open conversation with anyone, although I’m getting there 9 months after day.

            • Nzee
              That’s some SERIOUSLY AND I MEAN PULP FICTION, fullON Brother JULES Fucked UP SHIT there. HOLY CHRIST ON HIS THRONE man. Please tell me you are Out if that crushing nightmare. FUCK!!

              X concubine was fucking 2 at my awakening with about 4 additional triangulated.

              Hope they all got/get/ or are getting a taste. OMG ???? I just shivered ☝️????

              I’m making my old high school sweetheart ❤️and 82 year old mom a spaghetti dinner tomorrow night.
              This will be Fun.

              Keep it Simple Bro.

              • Thanks Marcus. I am coming out of the nightmare though it will continue through coparenting and proximity (small town).
                Your response gave me a real lift as my mind still boggles at what was going on.
                Striving to keep it simple!

        • I would absolutely LOVE the UBT to translate a letter from the cheating husband, even if Clady has to make one up.
          We have written the things they say over and over again.
          I would love to hear the shit that comes out of their mouth UBT’d– particularly the cheater who discards a blindsided spouse for the ‘upgrade,’ that is the selfish, entitled narcissistic, dimwitted 0W.

          The cheater abandoner will never write or reflect, he is too busy going full speed ahead in his new shiny life (often with a younger ‘I’m so special’ 0W) while the discarded are left picking up the pieces

          • There was one on here not too long ago from a cheating husband who just had a craving for Olympian style sex or something.

            • Oh yea thanks, but I want to hear one from the type of man who says it’s not about the sex – he just fell in love with his true soulmate (after flirting, treating a coworker like a girlfriend, texting and secretly talking to her on the phone constantly and completely feeding a sexual dynamic) and decided he had to shatter his wife and decimate his family for the office slut – because she is such an amazing person.
              The amazing 0W likes to break up families and fuck other people’s husbands while she’s married.
              I want to hear him rationalize that poor him should’ve never gotten married -even though he’s the one who proposed- was never in love – even though he was the chaser and completely infatuated. And he didn’t look elsewhere – it just happened.
              A few of us have had husbands like that.
              They actually sound so reasonable and are the nice guy cheaters.
              They will convince everyone that something was wrong in the marriage even though they acted like everything was fine.
              That guy will never ever write in; he doesn’t even consider himself a cheater.

              • They won’t write in. And mostly they will put up a wall between them and their concience. They have to.

                My ex said once it isn’t about the sex. I just said it is adultery and it is exactly about the sex. (he did not like the word adultery) It likely isn’t now, as they are old as dirt just like me, but then it absolutely did start out that way.

                I think it does for most of them. Just getting a little strange, then they get entangled. Too many lies, whore is pushing for him to divorce, work has his nus in a vice. A little different for each case, but that is the basic.

                The reason I knew my H was lying about it not being about the sex, is he lied about everything for a good ydar and a half, so if he said it, it was a lie.

                My guess is many of them have quite a bit of casual sex before they run across the one that entangles them.

      • This site is for all chumps including guys who were cheated on, but I get what you mean…any OW/OM who comes here has got a screw loose.

    • Hey, I’ve always wanted to know what does this mean? Why do you write follow? Also can someone tell me what the acronym DD is for? Not discovery day but I feel I see D when discussing kids.

        • Writing “Follow” and ticking off “Notify me of follow-up comments by email” is done when you want to follow a particular discussion even if you have nothing to add to it at the moment. It took me awhile to figure that out.

          • Yep.

            Same thing if you make a comment and check the follow up comments. It is just that in the am when the subject comes up, I am not usually thinking of comments.

      • I just post that to get notifications of comments. Posting a comment will do the same, but most times I see the thread early in the am and am not ready to post yet.

      • Also at the top of the website there is a link to “resources” that offers some of the terms. It could use some updating and I think it would be hilarious if KK was added.

  • Dear Whore, you are too a bad person. You knew he was married. Get therapy.

    Poor dear UBT, how you suffer. Thank you for your valiant efforts to decode this whorespeak. I hear your transponders whirl in my mind. Thank you.

  • Sooo instead of just being a decent human being. By not dating/ continue to date a married man. She keeps encouraging the married pos she’s sleeping with to leave his wife. Then has the audacity to whine about not being picked? That may be updated depending on his mood or lack of cake. She’s as manipulative as he is.

  • You knew he was married and you still pursued a relationship with him. You do not have morals.
    And, they lie to get what they want. Congrats little homewrecker, you have been manipulated.

  • Idiots like this enable cheaters. Love how she fails to acknowledge the damage and chaos she brought into the children’s lives.

  • I don’t understand why these “hoes” write in. Are they looking for some sort of validation in being a low class home wrecker?
    You knew he was married… disgusting whore.

  • Wow,she sure has nerve. Poor little homewrecker. She knew exactly what she was doing. She sounds like
    my cousin. Screwed around with my ex for 4 years and she plays the victim.

  • They picked out bed linen!! How special these OW think they are. She’d take him back in a New York minute too if he’d have her. All this blathering from cake eaters makes my head hurt. Any person who knowingly sleeps with a married person is an asshole. Plain and simple. Like they expect empathy from US. Pffftttt

  • My ex’s ow. Thought he was wonderful, its surprising how stupid some people are.
    We split up years ago, she still hangs around. in her defense she left her kids for him, he actually said that, I think she would have left her kids with anyone who would have them, tragic but true.

    • I just can’t with women like this.

      You put your trust in a narcissistic cheater. What did you expect?

      Nothing but karma to see here.

      • I think they rationalize it by assuming they’re somehow special.

        But we women have each others numbers this way…..we know who the trashy women are.

      • I feel we have a generation of women like this in the young 20s/30s range. These are the ones who post every aspect of their lives on social media and constantly fishing for attention and validation from men.

        BTW, cheaters say the same stupid shit and the APs always believe it. No honor among thieves. But who seriously believes that they’re not being intimate with their spouse and “sleeping in separate rooms.” EFF OFF.

        I bet the APs would be surprised to know they were still sleeping with the spouse when the affairs were going on or had just stopped.

        • Two or three days before my ex left me for the OW, we had some serious fun in our living room on a chair. I was thrilled because I honestly thought, oh wow he does love me, he is getting his head on straight. (his words) (I didn’t know who he was screwing, though I suspected it was someone.) I was still pick me dancing.

          That whole summer before Dday, we went out on the boat a lot and made use of the cabin for play. He was seeing her all that time, unknown to me. So either she knew, or he told her a lie and she bought it. Guess which one is more likely.

  • Dear Not a Bad Person,

    If I actually believed you were duped (which I don’t)… I might offer you some sympathy and say… be glad you didn’t win the pick me dance… when you win a cheater, you win a cheater… and likely create a new opening for another OW/OM.

    However, I have no sympathy for you. Not. One. Iota.

    Forget him and his motives… you knowingly sought to blow up a family for bed linens… you were willing to permanently effect the lives of his children so you could do what exactly?… you imposed yourself on to the wife to tell her YOUR TRUTH… whattheeverlovingfuck… we don’t care what the OW/OM thinks… even after the ink on the divorce papers is dry. You feel like a whore? You feel dirty? You aren’t the OW… woman, you have a heap of denial you need to work through with your therapist… maybe put your energy there instead of fucking married men.

    Well done UBT… well done.

    • She wasn’t duped even by her own standards. If they actually did have an open marriage, she was still trying to get him to divorce.

      • If any man told me he was in an open marriage, I’d be immediately suspicious and ask to talk to his wife about it – not that I’d expect him to let me (but that on it’s own would be a massive clue, anyway!) Sooo not surprised to read the wife in fact did NOT have an “agreement” with him about sex outside the marriage. These people believe what they want to, even when it’s obviously a lie.

        • I want to add, I wouldn’t consider doing anything with a married person anyway. I’d just enjoy letting them know I knew they were lying lol.

        • Yeah, the “open marriage” bit should have been her first clue this guy is not the faithful type and she clearly wanted an exclusive arrangement. She gladly bought into his garbage as it was convenient. She would not be labeled the OW and she figured with enough time she’d be able to lure him from his family. No matter how she dances around it, she was the OW and she got dumped like so many OW do…

          • Surely a sensible woman would say, “I will just contact your wife and check she is in an open marriage”

            Watch that face …

        • Kara this power struggle and MUTUAL MANIPULATION has been noted by therapists: that whilst being happy to help the man avoid his commitment to his wife …

          OW after a while press for commitment!!! And he all the while avoiding that commitment.

  • I honestly can’t believe anyone would believe the sob story of my wife’s and I have an open marriage / don’t sleep together / only together for the children .

    Honestly it’s the oldest con in the book .

    Anyone with an ounce of self respect should say ok I am sorry you are having difficulty in your marriage you should talk with your spouse and seek outside marriage guidance . If this doesn’t work then you should look at divorce . Then and only then once divorce is in motion if you must then start dating .

    You don’t drop your pants because someone says my wife/ husband doesn’t understand me . Even a 15 year old knows this is a lie !!

    • Yeah, really. I remember when I was young hearing things like that on the regular from married men, like it was some sort of enticing pick up line. Even more offensive than the fact that they were married, was the implication that I would be so stupid to buy it, and flattered by their attention. It comes off needy and desperate. Not a good look and a total turn-off. Probably why OW are almost always downgrades. What sort of female goes for that sort of BS? Unfortunately, we know all too well.

      • I wouldn’t be flattered if a married man came on to me I would think he was a desperate stupid dickhead .

        Is there a shortage of men out there that woman can only seem to get married ones ? Then think this is ok ? Then when it goes tits up say “ THEY” were used ?

        Nope they fell for a lie , they knew it was a lie so serves them right .

        You are 100% right though unfortunately we are all too aware of this . ((( hugs )))

        • The one line that women kept hearing when I was young (married guys still probably do this): “My wife doesn’t understand me.” Yeah, probably because you’re a whiney sad-sack loser. Like we’re supposed to go all weak in the knees listening to your tales of woe and sympathize with you enough to give you a mercy fuck. Everytime I heard that, and not only to me but directed at any woman, I wanted to barf.

          • God, you’re telling me. My ex wife and her AP liked to “understand each other” with their bullshit sob stories, woe is me, daddy issues BS. Hey ladies, newsflash for all of you, NO MAN OUTSIDE OF YOUR HUSBAND/FAMILY/THERAPIST WANTS TO HEAR YOUR SOB STORY and invites you to dinner and to their place unless they want to sleep with you. “But I have a…” No, no, you don’t.

            My ex found a guy who was incredibly screwed up from her past. Never has this man provided for a wife or lived with a woman. Never was he a full-time dad (he has a son he didn’t know about it til years after he was born and shares with a ‘baby momma). But they really bonded over their BS.

            I wish there was a way to identify these types of people so the normal folks can avoid them like the plague.

            • As time goes on, there are a couple of things that can provide clues, at least for me (I’m sure there are many more). One, is it too good to be true? Two, is there a hint of desperation? These are the two things I usually notice first with liars. They will also over-explain everything and work too hard to be convincing.

              • Your comment reminded me of one time, not long before Dday, it was in the early part of Dec. (Dday was 25 Dec) We were supposed to go to his work Christmas Party. He was late. I met him at the door, and said where were you? He started stuttering about some work emergency. I just hugged him and said I was kidding, lets go. I should have stood there and let him dig.

                Thinking back, he was doing just that; over explaining. Then later at the party while we were sitting at the table with our best friends and schmoopie and her girlfriend on the other side, I noticed he was sweating up a storm. God I was stupid. I know, I know. By then I had already began to suspect foul sex, but it never occured to me it was his employee. First because she was his employee, and I had always thought he was fairly smart. Second she was not a particularly appealing woman in terms of who you imagine your H messing around with.

          • I always wanted to reply ‘Oh, I bet she understands you all too well. That’s why you’re looking for someone new who will buy your bullshit!’ But I was too polite, just gave them my best ‘ really?????’ smile and moved along.

        • The line that was used a lot by these men was “My wife doesn’t understand me.” Yeah, probably because you’re a whiney sad-sack loser. Like we’re going to listen to you complain and sypathize with you so you can get a mercy fuck out of us.

          • I felt crestfallen when a friend– who happened to be a movie star, wealthy as hell, considered handsome and all that– tried to induce me to cheat with him on his live-in girlfriend whom I knew. I sputtered out something like, “If I love you and you love her then I love her and I would never do this.” I could have been a lot harsher but at that point the situation became political since he was close to someone who was pivotal to keeping my dream job. I shifted from feeling friendship to intimidation which, for me, meant I’d lost respect for him. In truth, I didn’t love him as a friend anymore. He’d once made a grand gesture of helping my career without asking anything in return but it all looked like grooming in retrospect. Fuck that. Fuck abuse of power. Fuck cheaters. I’d scrub toilets before taking part in that circus.

            That was when I was really young. I don’t consider it “wisdom beyond years” to know better than to mess around with a committed person because it’s the same kind of social negotiation kids make in seventh grade. Even if I had been a scheming, rapacious POS who didn’t care if the guy was a big cheat or if his girlfriend got hurt, pure self interest would have kept me out of that mess. I knew I couldn’t replace his girlfriend because, by cheating with him, I would immediately disqualify myself as long term relationship material, not just with him (who so obviously chose someone devoted for himself even if he couldn’t keep up his end of the bargain) but with anyone worthy in the future. Who wants to be condemned to lie forever about your past to someone you claim to love? And who worth their salt would trust a former mate poacher/cheat? You have to be so dumb and so desperate not to figure this out.

            I wasn’t flattered by the whole drama. I felt sad to lose someone I thought was a friend but not as sad as I would have been to lose basic integrity. Feeling sad and being a sad-sack cautionary tale are two different things.

            • Being young I don’t think it was wisdom speaking for me either. For me it was just disgust, like why would I want to do that with you, because you’re wanting to do something you shouldn’t and you’re trying to drag me into it? But my very first reaction was always, no matter how old I was, was why do you think I’m the sort of person who would take up with a married or taken man? I was insulted by how they judged me. And then in a flash in my head I would see a scene play out like a sped up movie reel, of a ‘relationship’ consisting of hiding and secrets, always something to be ashamed of and not what love really is. Why would any young person want that, especially since when young, there are plenty of single people to choose from? I thought they were crazy.

    • It is so cliché as to be laughable.

      But, many will suck it in. But you are right, the sparkle dick should have started divorce proceedings once he realized he was losing control of his dick. Takes only a few days. Then he is free to chase tail to his hearts content.

      But, they don’t do that because they want to make sure what they really want. So they use the wife and manipulate her for months or years until they feel comfortable leaving. Many think they will never be caught because they are so damn smart.

      • Yep. Or it could be like my ex wife, get me to move states, fund her a business and exit plan, then drop it on me. Good to know I was working my ass off, stressed every single day, so she could be happy all while she was chatting it up with her AP.

        Then when caught, threaten divorce as a way to bully, blame for her cheating but not leave the AP, mind eff you and use you for money, etc. But when you go NC and then file for divorce, here comes the tears.

        • The manipulation and financial abuse is horrific.

          My ex talked me into signing for a loan for a river property for our “retirement home” knowing he and whore were setting up the kill. He couldn’t wait and let whore do it, as she had no credit, having previously filed for bankruptcy.

          I am so thankful my facility did not close (DoD) before Dday. He would have lied to me and I would have given up my job to stay where we were. He would not have cared a whit that I was left with nothing, just as long as things went by his timeline.

          I don’t know what spured the disclosure, though I suspect the fact that he had his boys in a vice grip at work, with her being his direct report. I know in the last couple weeks, folks began to find out about it. Also, she was likely pushing for the divorce.

          That is just my guess, I will never know for sure.

        • So many cheaters move states and then dump the spouse. I always figured it would be easier to divorce and then move on your own but apparently cheaters have another outlook.

          • Only ever agree to move states when a spouse is acting spooky if the new state allows alienation of affection suits while the old one didn’t. Jujitsu.

          • My best friend moved her and the family to a bigger nicer house, then dumped her within two months. He wanted the equity out of the old house, that disappeared, then she couldn’t keep up the payments so he got the house as there was not enough equity in it to make any money.

            Personally I think she had a bad lawyer given that circumstance, but she accepted it, just to get out.

    • Right? “Oh we have an open marriage.” Sure you do.

      I have a rule for this. If a man ever says “We have an open marriage/my wife allows me to sleep with other women” then ask to talk to his wife and see how it goes. If he’s telling the truth, it shouldn’t be a problem. If he panics and has a thousand excuses why you can’t do that, then he’s 99.99% probably lying. (I’ve known some poly couples who don’t like having contact with their partner’s …partners…which is also a reason to raise and eyebrow because it smacks of the spouse not actually being 100% okay with the setup.)

      This OP was an OW. She’s just looking for someone to tell her she isn’t. She knew he was married, she said she stepped away but kept talking to him for a full fucking year, and she pushed him to leave his wife and children. When he wasn’t moving fast enough on that divorce, she tattled to the wife thinking that was finally going to get him to cut the cord and give her the title of Pick Me Dance winner.

      OP, you feel dirty because you ARE. You feel like a whore because you ARE. You knew he was married. You engaged with him anyway no matter how much you try to make excuses for it. Instead of truly cutting him off, you pushed him to leave his family. You didn’t contact his wife because you cared about her feelings, you wanted him to finally leave her and you figured he’d do that if she got mad enough at him. All through your letter you have this thin veneer of being duped and hurt, but right beneath the surface is a massive layer of excuses. “We were in love!” “He said he was in a dead marriage!” “He said he’d leave her!” “We picked out SHEETS!!!” Oh my GOD SHEETS??? That’s like, better than being Facebook Official! Whore-Bag Sheet-Picking!

      Stop trying to absolve yourself. You’re not a victim here, you’re an Other Woman who’s mad she lost the Pick Me Dance. If you understood Cake you’d realize you want it just as much as he does.

      • “I have a rule for this. If a man ever says “We have an open marriage/my wife allows me to sleep with other women” then ask to talk to his wife and see how it goes.”

        I wouldn’t even contemplate this. If a man tells me he’s married, it’s buhbye, no matter what bullshit rationale he posits.

        The rest of your post is spot on, though. ????????

        • Chumpnomore6: Believe me, I’m not interested in joining anyone’s polyamorous circle. I left my marriage because my ex husband wanted that and he now has three wives. *barf*

          This is just what I say when it comes to the “we’re open/my wife knows” line. Does she? Prove it. I’ve told this to a few poly friends who were clearly sleeping with men who were not as open as they claimed to be. A coworker told me she’s going on a date with a man who said he’s broken up with his girlfriend but they still live together, but they’re *really* broken up, he said so. I told her, how do you know? Did you talk to the girlfriend? Have you met her? Did you ask her this?

          Nope. I said before you go on a date with this guy, I recommend you actually talk to the supposed girl he broke up with. You might find out that their breakup is news to her. If you ask to talk to her and he gives you excuses why you can’t, then he’s lying. Drop his ass.

          Another friend who is poly was gushing to me about this married man she met who was open and how she was really into him, but he only ever seemed to talk to her when he wanted sex, they’d never hang out or do anything outside of that. I asked her if she’d ever spoken to this man’s wife. Nope again. I asked her how did she know he’s open? Did HE say that or did his WIFE say that? She broached the subject of talking to his wife and he dumped her. She was upset but I told her you should always, ALWAYS ask the wife. If it’s true, there shouldn’t be an issue.

          • Seconding this. Plenty of cheaters will use the line “we’re open/ we’re poly” to get sex.
            My only foray into polyamory I met all 3 other partners of the person I briefly dated.
            Was it drama free? Nope. Never have I done so much processing. But it was ethical.

          • Ayup. My bf and me have an open relationship, and if you’re doing it right (read: ethically), there are norms and openness and communication and respect *and everybody knows what’s going on, always, from the beginning*. Too many people use polyamory as an excuse to cheat, which is bullshit.

            We legit have a massive word document detailing what is and not ok to do with other people, what do we tell each other about other partners (to respect the other people’s privacy), what protections we use for sex with other partners & with each other, etc. And we each always tell any other person we’re interested in “hey, I’ve got a partner, we’re open, are you ok with that?” because CONSENT MATTERS and anyone has the right to know that the person they’re considering sleeping with is not single, so they can make informed decisions about what’s right for them.

            So, to sum up: if someone tells you they’re in an open relationship, and they’re being honest, you’ll know because they will tell you unprompted, answer your questions, let you get in contact with their partner if you want, respect your no if you don’t want to get involved, etc. If it feels sketchy? It is, either due to dishonesty or to your not feeling comfortable engaging in polyam. Either way, stay clear.

            The lines this man fed the OP were obvious bullshit and I’m sorry she fell for them, but she loses the right to ask for sympathy when she stops being duped and starts actively participating in hurting the wife and the children. Oy. Those are innocent people you’re hurting for the sake of your ego. WTF, lady?

      • I also thought it was quite telling that she considers only the times she’s slept with him as cheating….not the days and weeks and months of inappropriateness and emotional affair to get to that point. She never mentions that.

        Then she continues the emotional affair for a year (if she can be believed here) before she slept with him again? That’s a whole lot of cheating that she clearly doesn’t see as cheating.

    • It’s the oldest line in the book but damn effective. Not only did The Entitled One’s little tarts believe him, he spread around to anyone who would listen that our marriage had been over for years and we were nothing but roommates and I was a frigid homebody who never wanted to leave the house. Even people I thought were my friends believed him. (I made new friends.)

    • I also thought it was quite telling that she considers only the times she’s slept with him as cheating….not the days and weeks and months of inappropriateness and emotional affair to get to that point. She never mentions that.

      Then she continues the emotional affair for a year (if she can be believed here) before she slept with him again? That’s a whole lot of cheating that she clearly doesn’t see as cheating.

  • So let me get this straight . ….you are an accessory to destroying the emotional social financial and physical health of an innocent woman and her children and you want sympathy ?! WOW ! You have balls the size of watermelons ! This is the equivalent of a burglar being pissed at the victims for not having any valuables in their home . Get over yourself ! You walked into your own propeller blades. Terrible terrible terrible ! From a guy’s perspective I love the high from attention from other women I also love chicken wings I wouldn’t while in a relationship stick my dick in either …..both would burn . I will also say that I love who I see in the mirror more and hold him to a higher standard than to destroy the people I swore to love and protect . Your character is reflected in the character of those you hang around with . He’s shit so you………..

  • It always amazes me how the OW/OM of the world think they are so Special, and how they believe in Twu Luv. I believe that someone could be sucked into a relationship with a married person, because they are lied to, and sometimes it takes a while to find out. But as soon as you know you have been lied to, you have the opportunity to walk away. It is not the same loss a spouse faces, there has been a wedding, and relatives, and financial obligations, and sometimes children, and time invested in a marriage. If an unknowing other finds out, and walks away then, they have been duped, but they have character and dignity. If they know from the start, and proceed anyway, then they are trying to build a relationship on shifting sand, and I don’t have time for mercy on those folks.

    Leaving a cheating, lying, spouse takes more character and determination. Often there are other people involved (children), and financial considerations. These issues make the shock and trauma worse, and different people react to pain and the dissolution of a marriage in different ways. I will not judge another chumps choice or method of dissolution. Chumps make mistakes, and have more to lose than an affair partner does. Chumps have to find a path to MEH that works for them. Chumps are entitled to consideration. An affair partner is someone who finds out they have been dating the wrong person. It may hurt, but their whole world is not destroyed because they have not made the investment of time and energy that the married person has. These levels of pain are not equal, and it is a false equivalency to consider them so. Just look at this woman dithering over bed linens, and realizing he lied to HER! What about his wife and kids? How can she equate her bruised ego with the total loss of their way of life? You can only think this way if you are Special, better than others, and while you say you realize they have pain, your pain is so much more important. Give me a break. Please slink off and snivel elsewhere.

    I am sure there are many bad marriages that need dissolution, for many reasons. It is hard enough to do what needs to be done, then. Adding another person into the mix is a fuckwit choice. It is like carrying a gallon of gasoline on your lap when you are headed for a car crash. There will be a danger of fire, anyway, at any crash. Carrying extra fuel, on your lap, is not a good choice. Exit a marriage if you need to, but wait to date. It may be a lonely choice, but at least you can concentrate on a new relationship after the old one is done. For the other person, don’t get into a car headed for a crash. Why would anyone want to ride along in that situation, knowing how bad crashes can be, without any added fuel. Seriously, don’t ask for sympathy when you make that choice!

  • When I met my ex 21 yrs ago, she was wearing a ring. I took a pass and said, sorry, I don’t get involved with married women. She continued to contact me over the next few months and announced she was no longer married and they had come to an agreement: they would share the house until it was sold. We met for coffee, her ring was gone, we went to a baseball game and ran into her “ex,” things were a bit awkward, but civil, yet I still held off anything physical. I interrogated her further, even did a background check on her “ex” and felt that she was telling me the truth..wishful thinking. Still I put on the brakes when she wanted to move in with me. We dated another year, I saw her “ex” often at sports events, things seemed resolved. Fast forward a year later and she moved in, we had a daughter and last year she began cheating. On D Day #1, she told me she had told her AP that we were broken up and only living as roommates until the daughter left for college in 2 yrs. So basically, she pulled the same lie on the AP as she did on me…or so I thought. I contacted her ex and apologized for what happened 21 yrs ago. I felt terrible that I fell for her crap and hurt another innocent person. But D Day #2, I discovered her AP knew all along and helped her conspire and lie. My point is, this post hit me. I feel dirty for what happened 21 yrs ago. I feel her treatment of me is my karma for accepting her lie without talking to her so-called “ex” at the time. At least her ex doesn’t hold it against me and says I’m not to blame for her shitty character.

    • I know what you mean. On my first date with my now-XW, I asked her why it was that she didn’t already have a boyfriend. She answered “I do!” I was stunned and shocked. I had no idea, and I would never have flirted with her and asked her out if I’d known. Because I’m an idiot, I excused her by thinking that there had been some misunderstanding (we were in her home country and there was a little bit of a cultural barrier). I put the brakes on everything for a few weeks, but she told me that her boyfriend wasn’t good enough for her, that she had been planning to break up with him but didn’t want to do it over the telephone, that he was crazy and violent and she was worried about how he’d react. When she finally did break up with him, he was devastated and accused all her friends of knowing that she was cheating on him, and he broke off contact with her and all her friend group.

      Now, granted they weren’t married, but now that I’ve been on the receiving end of *exactly* the same treatment I feel terribly about what I did, and incredibly stupid that I accepted all her (in retrospect, transparently bogus) rationales for why it was OK for us to date while she was also dating him. It took 20 years to manifest, but karma came for me eventually. I just wish our kids didn’t have to pay for my stupidity.

    • When I met my ex 21 yrs ago, she was wearing a ring. I took a pass and said, sorry, I don’t get involved with married women. She continued to contact me over the next few months and announced she was no longer married and they had come to an agreement: they would share the house until it was sold… I interrogated her further, even did a background check on her “ex” and felt that she was telling me the truth

      I can’t tell you to feel better, but from where I sit, the only thing you neglected to do was to demand a copy of the divorce decree. She made a move on you. You said no because she had the big “married” sign on her forehead. This is what a normal, ethical person would do: tell her no. And when she said she was no longer married, you investigated and things seemed legit. You can’t own her lies. At least you tried to make sure that she was available.

      I have known another man who was an unknowing AP. He had been dating a woman for about a year. She told him that she couldn’t see him on weekends because she had to stay with her parents, who were ill. He was okay with this. Finally, he suggested they move in together. They started looking for apartments, and it was then that she started getting cold feet. One day, he happened to get a look at the name on her credit card, and he realized that while he knew her as Jane Doe, her credit card had her as Jane Doe Smith. He did a google search and discovered a Facebook page with her standing with her husband and daughter. He’d seen a photo of her with her daughter, but she’d told him that this was her younger sister. Of course, that was the end of the relationship, but he felt physically ill, and he could not bring himself to enter into a relationship for well over a year. He felt as if he needed to contact the husband and Chump that I am, I said that yes, he should but not expect any response. His obligation was to inform the husband of what happened, but it was up to the husband to take things from there.

      So yes, there can be unwitting APs. You didn’t enter the relationship until you thought she was divorced. That’s a big difference from entering a relationship with a married person who claims that theirs is an open marriage and that they haven’t had sex with their spouse and so therefore it’s okay for them to sleep with you. They still have that “married” sign on their heads, and that kind of line is pretty much a cheater cliche.

    • This I don’t understand they say they said I don’t mess with married men/women but continue to correspond with the cheater. This is me if I don’t fuck with married men I’m not going to be excepting no text, email, Facebook, etc. so please stop saying I said I don’t mess with married women/men for god sake be truthful to yourself once you cross that path we know what kind of person you are: A self-centered disgraceful loser. No sympathy

      • I agree. I’m 40 and have definitely been propositioned by married men in my time, in person and online. But I don’t entertain a damn thing. Block and delete. I’m not sticking around enjoying the attention or flirting or saying nasty things to pique their attention or trying to be “frieeeeends.” We all know how that goes.

        • Beans, you hit it. These are people that need the attention. At their core they are empty losers and they will take the attention and the kibbles from anyone who offers – it regardless of who it damages.
          They are also liars, they lie to everyone else and they lie to themselves. They convince themselves this is true love… but really it was just empty ego fulfilment.
          They were also very immature and have no concept of what love really is.

    • I was the Second Wife. I worked for the cheater for a number of years. He gave me the same line- the marriage was dead, they didnt sleep together. I was thirty with 2 kids, and wondered if I’d ever find a special Someone. (pre-Tinder and online dating years). He was respected in his field, smart and funny and attractive. He separated from his wife. We got married years later having lived together for 15 years. We had a child together. 22 years together total and I found out he is a serial cheater, and not just with first wife. I went from Goddess who gave him a son, to just another side-fuck. Am I the Other Woman? I feel like it- now.

    • Her ex from 21 years ago dodged a bullet, so he should be thanking you. Seriously, I get why you would call and apologize but if you think your ex just started cheating a year ago, think again.

  • This probably won’t make me Miss Congeliality but I do understand where some (just some) of these women are coming from. They were taken in by super charming men who told them they’re separated and just cohabiting for whatever reason with their spouses/ children until divorce. I know two such lovely, kind and believe it or not, highly intelligent women. One I don’t feel really sorry for because she met who I believe is a cheater at the swingers’ club. Still, she completely believes he’s in in house separation. She should know better. The second one believes it’s currently ‘complicated’. She’s quite naive and i know this is what she firmly believes.

    There are quite a number of you who at some point agreed to open relationships/ were separated in-house/ were in process of separation/ divorce when you met new partners. Also, all of you lived for years/ decades with cheaters, mostly not suspecting anything. If they fooled you who knew them so well, they could also fool even easier some naive woman (or msn).

    I also know people who are Switzerland friends, enablers, because the cheater’s wife was asking for it because she was so controlling/ frigid/ didn’t meet needs, blah blah, you know the spiel. And some people just don’t see anything bad in cheating. They’re hero’s of their own stories because they don’t want to hurt their partners/ are better spouses and similar nonsense.

    I’ve also noticed that female chumps are more often more angry at OW than the cheater but male chumps are more likely pissed off at their cheating partners and less angry at OM, which is healthier in my opinion.

    • This OP, however, had more than one point where she found out he was lying and that he had not left his wife. And then another when she actually spoke to the wife and found out, again, he was lying, and still thinks she is a victim. You mention a lot of us in CN have had live-in separations, dealt with failed Open Marriages, etc. This man was not any of those situations. He was actively LYING about that. It would be one thing if he was either open or working a live in separation, but he wasn’t. And she found this out early on.

      She had several moments of truth and chose to 1) Continue contact with him and 2) Push him to leave his family.

      She was presented with reality more than once. She chose herself. Every time. Plus, consider this: This is an OW writing in to Chump Lady looking for sympathy. …Do you think she’s being 100% transparent about the events that transpired? She mentions she only slept with him twice. Do you really think that’s true? What was going on in the year she supposedly refused to sleep with him, but somehow also went shopping for household items with him?

      I don’t buy it.

      • You will never get the full truth from a cheater whether it’s the cheating spouse or their AP. Just like in every aspect of their lives, it was always be self-serving and omit a ton of things. The cheating spouse lies to the spouse and to the AP. I imagine every chump here was shit talked by their spouse to their AP about all of our “failures” and flaws and of course, we had to be awful or why else would they be cheating? “SAVE ME, AP!”

        I don’t buy they only slept together twice. LOL. Men aren’t leaving wives for that. This was going on for a long time and I guarantee the pushing him to leave his wife came when the AP was feeling like a worthless whore when he’d sleep with her and then he had to go elsewhere for the holidays or go play daddy/husband.

    • Me neither.

      This whore knowingly got involved with a *married* man, and *chose* to believe what the turd told her, then whines about feeling ‘used’, whilst continuing to fuck the piece of shit.

      Persephone, that is in no way similar to chumps who trust a cheater before discovery – we were married to them, we trusted them, because one is supposed to trust one’s spouse. This whore chose to fuck a married man, chose to believe his lies when she admits herself she knew he was a liar. There is no moral equivalency here.

    • Keep in mind that some of these cheaters really are manipulative and some of them really can lie convincingly. She may well have believed the wife really did know about her and was ok with it and slept around herself, didn’t’ really care about him, and they could work out an arrangement with the kids. It sounds crazy to all of us because we have been on the other side of that and we know cheaters lie and that most wives are not, in fact, ok with the fucking around. Without that context, however, an easily manipulated woman really might not get that. Now that she knows for certain that the wife was never ok with any of this, however, she should be fully cognizant of his dysfunction, running for the hills and what his wife chooses to do about it all is really none of her business and not her problem.

      I say this because when I was in college I had a male friend (someone I had had a crush on for a long time before he started dating his then girlfriend) try to convince me that he and his girlfriend had an open relationship and he wanted to sleep with me. I refused, but only because I was concerned about my own feelings. I didn’t want to be a sidepiece for someone who was in love with somebody else. It never occurred to me that he might be lying and that she might be devastated if he slept around. It was only concern for my own feelings that kept me from being an OW. If he hadn’t told me they had an open relationship, I would have been concerned about her feelings too (I had refused others who had girlfriends on those grounds as well as my own feelings), but I naively believed that what he said was true. It is also possible that it was true because some couples really do have open relationships. It’s hard to know unless you speak directly to the primary relationship partner. This woman should have done that sooner, but it may well be that she is more stupid than evil.

      • Well, maybe she was naive before speaking to wife but she shouldn’t have been after.

        But then, how many chumps have had more than one DD? Because the cheater are able to convincingly lie, gaslight etc.

        • As Kara says somewhere above, if someone is told, “open relationship blah blah”, and still wants to become involved, a person of character and integrity will do due diligence, and *speak to the wife/husband* first.

          • I like to think I’m open minded, but this whole “open relationship” BS just seems like an excuse to not grow up and be in a committed relationship. If I were young again I would not hang around anyone flinging that around as ok. Often one person in the couple wants to step out and the other goes along to maintain the relationship, sort of like they’re being blackmailed into allowing it. And if two people in a couple are both on board, then why be married? You don’t have a marriage, as far as I’m concerned. You are defiling marriage. I’m not religious or belong to any faith with rules about that, it just flies in the face of the definition of marriage. In my day it was “swingers.” My husband and I were approached twice over the years by people who wanted to be more than “couple friends.” One was our son’s pediatrician who had us over to dinner with his girlfriend and another couple. When the evening got strange, we left. I was so confused about their weird behavior and lack of boundaries, my husband had to expain to me what their agenda was. Yuck.

        • “But then, how many chumps have had more than one DD? Because the cheater are able to convincingly lie, gaslight etc”

          You’re comparing apples and oranges. Chumps who stay after more than one Dday may have many reasons. First of all, they are *married*, they took a vow which many feel they should uphold even if the other party has reneged.

          Sunk costs, a baby, young children, no money/resources, fear, etc etc.

          The OWhires have none of these, they’re just entitled dumb cunts who think they’re ‘special’ and entitled to take whatever they want, because reasons. They are contemptible, no matter what revolting rationale’s they spew, like that dirty whore above who wrote to CL.

          Why are you trying to defend these waste of skin and oxygen skank buckets? I don’t get it.

          • Five stars from me for use of “dumb cunt.” It’s a phrase that is apropos for cheating women and “other women.”

          • I’m not trying to defend them as a whole group. I just said it’s possible that some naive women (men) are as taken in by the cheaters as the spouses are, and the spouses know their cheaters far better. Yes, probably some should pay far greater due diligence but a lot of spouses also continue to ignore red flags and don’t really do due diligence after first DD. I’m also not talking about the group as a whole.

            • There’s nothing naive about putting your dick inside a woman and there’s nothing naive about opening your legs to a man’s dick. Infidelity wears many masks and you’re adding the mask of ‘naive’ to the roster. It’s laughable. As Chump Lady said once about magically falling on to his magic penis…..the only thing that makes the cruelty of infidels worse is the defensive of them. It’s like saying the drunk driver that killed little Billy was only a ‘little drunk’ – open your eyes – then perhaps your heart will follow – I’ve seen babies born almost blind because the OW gave herpes to the fkwit who then fathered a child and the Chump broke out vaginally; gave birth; and add another suffering soul to the mix – this time a baby.

          • I can tell you exactly why, strange and inconceivable as it may sound, but I can tell you why anyone would defend these ‘dumb cunts’ these home-wrecking whores…’s because they have a dumb cunt home-wrecking whore vein in them selves that they might feel a twinge of guilt about….or a twinge of defensiveness about….It’s my experience that every fking woman I meet who has a soft spot of sympathy for the home-wrecking whore OW’s is because they’ve been one themselves. May all these women rot in hell. Chumps are loving, kind, smart, trustworthy human beings that have dignity and integrity – but I fear in today’s lawless, pro-whore, sex-crazed world we’ll see the suicide rate for Chumps go up….and it’s a damn shame because the moment a Chump gives up to the grief; gives in to the disbelief of having been so deceived the world will simply respond; “see….she must have been nuts after all, no wonder the poor guy had an affair….” It would be so easy to cave in. The celebrity patients that flock to my fkwit Beverly Hills surgeon – they love him – even if they knew he had cum inside his White Lab coat an a whore’s pussy juice on his lips left over from the afternooner – they wouldn’t care. Nobody cares about decency anymore and the women who defend OW’s are dirty whores themselves.

            • Yep, and if Chumps could just see that once they get past the pain, overwhelmingly their life will be better. There is good life after being abused by a cheater.

              Sites like this help get that word out.

              And for those few that have a unicorn cheater, there is life ahead too. There just aren’t that many of them.

            • “Chumps are loving, kind, smart, trustworthy human beings that have dignity and integrity ”

              I agree that this is the case most times with chumps male/female. Simply because their character traits makes them easier targets for betrayal. Add in committed to marriage and a chump will go the extra mile to perserve a marriage, even without knowing exactly what is wrong.

              We will ask what is wrong (as I did) and we will be lied to, until the fuckwith is ready to bail. In biblical terms they are usually unequally yoked. They just don’t always know it.

            • I agree, anyone who defends OW/OM in *any* way is definitely lacking a moral compass.

              You’re right about these types having a vein of OW/OM in them.

      • CIR
        “ I didn’t want to be a sidepiece for someone who was in love with somebody else.”

        This is the driving, irrepressible cognizant reality that equates to the naloxone for hopium. Once registered, it becomes our “moment of clarity” and lays bare all the reasons for continuing on.

    • I knew not to fall for that crap at 17. Naivete is often willful, a bit like a fashion choice. I’ve seen a few she-poachers in action in the course of my work life (very cheatery field full of climbers, fantasists and abuses of power) and I’ve noticed how some age-regress and act like fluttery Victorian damsels as they’re about to embark on a sleazy affair with some married FW or other. They all turned out to be disordered backstabbers in the end.

  • C’mon OWs. You can do better than that. The UBT and Chump Nation love a good challenge. You know, a really tart piece of mind fuckery we can really get our teeth into. That bit of whiny dreck didn’t fry a single UBT transponder. YAWN.

    P.S. As one of the Chump Ladies, I hope the wife dumps that turd (just a turd, not even a shiny one) and you get him back since you want to “win” so badly. You truly deserve each other.

  • Wow, what’s wrong with you Chumps? Have you no compassion? I mean, this Not-OW really fell on the sword to do the right thing here. Bahaha!! ????????

    Look, I take issue with Chumps who blame the OW as if their poor cheaters were completely duped. Turn that finger around and point it at the one who broke VOWS to you.
    That said, the sudden onset of conscience these OW have when they don’t “win” , is so transparent & cliché. Suddenly it’s a good idea to chat with their lovers spouse. Why did the great need for truth arise only after being dumped, O’ ye of moral fortitude?
    Yeah, clearly this communication is a last-ditch effort to win cheater back through exposure, or at the very least, to hit him where it hurts.
    A good person doesn’t get involved in messes like this.

    • I blame both. The cheating accomplice violated my boundaries as did my fake husband. It’s abuse that has two perpetrators.

      Cheating accomplices use your thinking to justify and rationalize and excuse getting involved with a married person.

      • Yep.

        She was in my house, she sat with us at social events, she hid away to allow him to keep lying to and stealing from me. She came to our church and stood right by my husband and I. She went with him on a business trip and spent the night in a motel with him. She let him come to her trailer in the middle of the night, knowing he was sneaking out. She accepted money and gifts from him knowing money was tight for us, and that I knew nothing about how that money was being spent. In twenty years of marriage I never even got a new couch, the one thing I wanted because there was never any money, but he showered whore with money and gifts.

        Yet these fuckwits never think that just maybe if they showered their wife with gifts and treated her well, but no when the sex gets vanilla, out they go.

        She hauled her son and her nasty ass to the river property that my fuckwit conned me into signing a loan for. That I spent several weekend working along side fuckwit, to build a deck. There is plenty more, and most of these woman do all this and more, my situation is not in the lest unique, though I thought it was at the time.

        • Yes. The rat faced whore stayed in my home, accepted my hospitality, and fucked my ex behind my back.

          The whore accepted gifts from him, all the tome posing as the poor little soul who just needed a friend. Vomit. ????????

          These kinds of women have a huge gaping hole where their souls should be.

          • It’s acceptable to blame both, to various extents depending on any relationship you may have had with OW/OM. Was she/he your best friend? Then he’ll yes call out that dual betrayal.
            What I’m really referring to above though, is who allowed this into your marriage? Whose responsibility was it to set boundaries & come to you with any potential problems -whether your best friend or some bar lush? Who allowed the home to be wrecked?
            These observations really apply mostly to Chumps still in RIC. I know many who’ve forgiven their cheater & think (ie, claim) their marriage is even better than ever now. But they still hold OW in the highest of contempt, as if the cheater was a victim. Seems to be a pretty common coping mechanism… transference of the hurt & anger onto the other party so they can look cheater in the face every day & “move on”.

            • And since we owe them nothing because we made no promises or vows to them, for me it is acceptable continue hold them in comtempt, or in my case dismissing them as not even worthy of comtempt. Which I think is what most chumps get to. That made no promises thing goes both ways.

              “It’s acceptable to blame both, to various extents depending on any relationship you may have had with OW/OM. Was she/he your best friend? Then he’ll yes call out that dual betrayal.”

              You, or I don’t get to set the acceptable bar for other chumps, they are capable of doing that for themselves when they are ready.

              • Geez,
                By no means trying to set the bar for anyone else by stating that “I” take issue with the whole “duped” cheater excuse.
                Morphing that into giving OP’s a “pass” is way off base.

              • Thank you Susie Lee for your responses to the individual Chumpty Dumpty who seems intent on defending the OW. I find this frankly both disturbing and sad. I think this individual, who continues to even hint at defending the OW, is either terribly mis-informed; suffers from co-dependency; is still in the mists of their own depression and post-pick me dance; or has a bit of a guilty streak themselves when it comes to infidelity. With the exception of Sex Workers and Prostitutes – there is no question that a “good whore” a “professional whore” stays in their lane – they take their money and if a John even hinted at ‘love or a relationship’ they would throw them out the door. So business/whores aside – the John called them. – so yes, I don’t blame the whore ( and my physician fkwit husband of 28 years slept with 30 prostitutes, he can remember). However, once a sex worker steps out of their lane (as his last one did after seeing his Tesla and finding out he was a doctor), and starts the ‘leave your wife’ ‘we can have fun together’ ‘I’ll make you happy, I’ll take care of you” “leave that silly old wife”, etc. – then the Sex Worker is just like all the other dirty OW’s – they are despicable and just as guilty and shameful as the fkwit married men who approach them. There is blame on both sides. There is NEVER any appropriate defense of a woman who sleeps with a married man – full stop. (I will exclude a professional escort/whore – then it’s on the john – he called her – so long as they stay in their lane) The whore that extorted thousands of dollars out of my fkwit husband didn’t stay in her lane – she became a dirty home-wrecker just like the secretary, the nanny, the boss’s wife – all the other shameful women that sleep with married men. Just look at the countless web sites for prostitutes, City Source, City Vibe, The Erotic Monkey, The Erotic Review – thousands of women – 22,000 alone right in the Bev Hills/ West LA area. Do you see that many men advertising as escort for sex with women? No, of course not. Believe it or not – understand it or not – sex is different for men. HOWEVER!! Loyalty, Trust, Dignity, Honor – are all the same for good men/women. My motto to these fkwit husbands is STAY FAITHFUL – OR- STAY SINGLE. The whores don’t care if someone is married. It’s business. Then yes, blame the guy only. But aside from a professional sex worker – the OW is a dirty and despicable as the cheating husband and there is never any defense for these kind of women. Good wives/chumps have taken the blame for years that if we had ‘been better wives’ he wouldn’t have cheated….we’ve not only accepted the blame it’s been thrown at us by the psychological community – the same as Multiple Sclerosis was horrifically diagnosed for years as “in her head” – I watched my poor neighbor go through that until the medical community recognized what MS really was. Chumps should never accept any blame EVER for a cheating husband – If he’s not happy – step up to the plate, discuss it and get a divorce. So, yes ALL OW’s are pigs.

    • I am one of the “lucky” ones whose ex was a serial cheater primarily with strippers who earned extra money hooking up with their “patrons”. Lucky in the sense that I managed to get out of the marriage without a lifetime reminder in the form of an STD, but also lucky in that it was always clear to me where the blame lay – with my ex. For the women, I am sure it was a commercial transaction (A LOT of commercial transactions). The only thing they were trying to “win” was a meal ticket. Well, he did marry one of them so if she feels like she “won” it was a competition with her fellow strippers, not with me, and I’m sure she’s realized by now that she will be in competition with them for the rest of the marriage. There’s always going to be a younger version of her trying to take away that meal ticket.

      • This was my situation too. And while I have discussed and contempt for any kind of sex worker it was my ex who sought out and paid for the services. The blame rests squarely on him not only for stepping out on the marriage, but for not having the decency to address whatever problems he felt let him to that point before it actually got to that point

    • ChumptyDumpty,
      Did you make ‘vows’ to your neighbour not to rob them when they leave their door open?
      Did you make ‘vows’ not to purposely rip up library books just because you felt like it?
      Should you get a pass on any behaviour that hurts others just because you didn’t promise not to do it?
      We need to care about other people in our society. The OW and OM care only about themselves (hurrah for me, eat shit spouse)- they see something they want and they go for it – at a huge expense to others, including children.
      I feel the married spouse is the #1 asshole, but their accomplice is a close 2nd.

      The simple fact is if the entitled would stop cheating with married people, married people would either work out the shit in their own marriage, try to work out their own individual shit, leave their marriage with integrity, or stay and be a miserable person and the non-cheater could choose to leave with honour and dignity.
      The OW or OM helps the cheater fuck over their spouse and family – and it’s not a small thing – these are life altering betrayals.
      It’s mind boggling to me that anyone would absolve the OW of any wrongdoing. It’s clearly a selfish, entitled and narcissistic act which helps destroy families.

      I had a friend recently tell me that she didn’t think the OW had any responsibility because she didn’t make the vow. That ‘screw you’ attitude towards the betrayed wife and the lack of empathy shown to her in the hypothetical situation was very clear to me. I found it very much a ‘too bad so sad, not my problem’ kind of attitude. It was clear to me that years ago she had cheated with a man who was married and she felt no responsibility because she wasn’t married to the woman .
      And I get it. But we have to do better and ask more of people.

      • “The OW or OM helps the cheater fuck over their spouse and family – and it’s not a small thing – these are life altering betrayals.”

        And most are actively involved in it, and help with the screwing over.

      • Zip,
        Nowhere did I say that affair partners are blameless or ‘get a pass’, FFS.
        I referred specifically to chumps who place all or the majority of the blame on the affair partner .
        It should be self-explanatory, I was speaking of *marriage* vows. Not general polite society/good samaritan “vows”. And yes, that opinion still holds.
        See my follow up comment above for more detail.

        • I think it’s a different situation when your husband uses sex workers vs striking up an emotional then physical affair with a coworker (who knows of you and your family situation).
          They’re both wickedly horrible, yet different.
          It’s also different when you are the one who left a cheating liar, vs a cheating liar suddenly and completely blindsiding you by dumping you for the OW, who encouraged and participated in the betrayal.
          I’ve only been with my kind of cheater, and in my case I sentence them both to being horribly selfish, people.

          He’s a big boy, he made the choice to decimate our family. And she’s not special, if it wasn’t her it probably would’ve been someone else down the line.
          However it was her; she took her happiness on my back and on the back of my children.
          They were both involved in knowingly causing pain and suffering to my family. She was in it to win it. They are both scumbags.

          • “They are both scumbags”

            Yep, I would say; they are both lying scumbags. Speaking for my case only of course. The hid from me, they hid from their chain of command, they lied and manipulated, they were co-conspiriters plan and simple.

          • Well spoken Zip. You are absolutely correct. There are many different scenarios of infidelity that all cause the same heart-wrenching pain – but the circumstances are different. I’d like to think with a cheater husband – if a Chump gets the opportunity to take him back – she should – just so she can throw him out further and harder. And, you’re right OW’s are dreadful home-wrecking whores – they’d be a higher class of whore if they took money and stayed in their lane. But the women who break up families have a special place in hell – right alongside the cheating husband – Karma will get both of them. A man who ups and leaves his family for an OW is not a man. Reasonable people can differ; bring problems to the table; and although there will be heartache they can separate as adults and move on – but the Cheater Husband who just selfishly leaves with an OW is disgusting. I wouldn’t want to even sit next to a guy like this on a bus or plane or be in an elevator with – pig men and pig OW’s. I’m so very sorry you ever had to endure such heartache – wonderful, generous women are always the one left holding the shitty stick. Watch what happens when a Cheater does the same thing to an OW…..usually the OW’s head begins to spin and her evil spirit surfaces. Difficult times reveal character – they don’t build it. Take your divorce papers – make a copy – and let the cat pee on them 🙂

            • ????????
              It’s that whole spin dr thing they do that really did a number on me. All of a sudden the marriage was a mistake, buying home together was a mistake,… I never heard a word of any of this until poof the discard. And I just know because of the ‘nice’ guy charmer he is, that other people would buy into his sad sausage story.
              I feel that if the world hated all cheaters and their accomplices it would be easier on us chumps. We have enough to deal with picking up all the pieces, can’t we have that? Worldwide cheater and OW disgust day!

              • You are correct Zip. At the risk of sounding self-serving, I’m a lawyer, I have a master’s in psych (it’s a degree recommended before law school especially for jury selection) and a BA in journalism – I anchored in the 90’s. I modeled all through college – I married a “nice guy” and helped him build his medical practice while I worked – 28 years married and this past May he told me he’s been with 30 whores throughout the duration of the marriage. And – who gets the blame? ME for working too much; too long. ME for being gone too much. His dead mother for being too over-bearing. Everyone gets the blame for his whoring except him – he’s the charming doctor that is loved by the masses while he jacks off watching porn in his white lab coat. I can’t even look at him and thank God I’m 1500 miles away. The person who posted so many defensive remarks about not blaming the OW ( paid whores and exception) is hurtful – this woman is delusional and only adds to the buckets of blame we already get. And why in God’s name people believe the lies that the cheaters make up is beyond me. Classic scenario “oh…his wife was dying of breast cancer so he slept with the nice neighbor lady while he was hurting…” Really??? When I heard that one I gave up all hope. We need to simply follow the ten Commandments – simple. Good luck Zip – walk tall – you deserve a lot of happiness.

  • The OW actually wrote me a terse email in which she said she was sorry for having an affair with my husband (UBT – she was sorry I found out), and that she thought she was doing me a favor. So God only knows what he told her – certainly it wasn’t the truth (sex 3X a week). However, according to HIM, she took it up the butt, which I can’t do. And THAT is worth destroying a marriage and family over.

    He also was amazed at her tale of woe that she and her husband never had sex. I mean, butt sex with her was MIND-BLOWING. I guess. Am I a bad person for wishing fecal incontinence on her as a lasting memory of when she helped destroy a marriage?

    Meanwhile, I’m moving on.

    Hey, be careful out there. My older sis does background checks on everybody she dates, which is probably a good idea.

    • “am I a bad person for wishing fecal incontinence on her as a lasting memory of when she helped destroy a marriage?”


      Love it.

    • May this ow be afflicted with rectal prolapse and require a prosthetic sphincter. The market is rapidly growing (told to me by a friend who works in medical sales) because of porn.

      • Is porn where that comes from? I was surprised my ex ever asked about that. He was adventurous in terms of locations and positions, but that was the only ooky thing he ever mentioned. I was never aware that he watched porn, but then again I was never aware that he was a cheater either.

        Who knows. ????‍♂️

        • When a local sex and relationship “expert” ended her column, she listed how things had changed over the previous twenty years. One of the items stated “Anal is the new oral” Full stop.
          Before she started her column, she worked the phones for the local health department, fielding questions.

    • That particular act is a no go for me. It was the only thing I turned the ex down on. He only asked once, and didn’t seem to let it bother him, so who knows. That was several years before schmoopie.

      • Mine was definitely bothered by it. He seemed upset over the fact that he thought I had done it for a previous lover. I hadn’t. That was one boundary I had managed to maintain with the previous highly manipulative lover. It doesn’t matter though. If I had, it clearly hadn’t been a positive experience so the fact that someone who was supposed to love me would ask me to do something that some other creep who didn’t have my best interests at heart also demanded is telling. He was more concerned with the possibility that someone else might have gotten better out of me than him. He was probably also bothered because other men had had that experience and he hadn’t and that was unfair. It all comes down to entitlement in the end.

    • Jo,
      I know it’s not supposed to be funny but your lab coat sentence made me laugh.
      OMG, you were just way too good for him. My first husband told me I didn’t work enough… I worked part time and stayed home with our kids. You honestly can’t win with assholes.
      I just have to say though, there are some good people who think all blame should be put on the cheater you married..
      I don’t get it.
      I don’t agree with it. And I’ve had some very hurtful conversations with people who love and support me -to try to get them to see my point of view.
      It really is traumatizing when somebody poaches your husband and people put no blame at all on the poacher.
      Their brain must be wired differently than ours.

  • Oh…, I truly believe the OW will win the pick-me dance. My dick-ex married his hoe after I finally divorced him. When I almost divorced him the first time, she told me everything because I needed to know the truth before I could go on. And stupid me, I was desperate and decided to wreconciliate. However, she won the pick-me dance in the end. And this one will win too. You missed your chance, CL. You could have told her to hold out. When he finally gets his ass thrown out for good, Not a bad person will ‘win’ the turd. At least…, until he finds someone else. My dick-ex is still married to his hoe, but he’s also 63 and his health isn’t the best. He may be with the skank until he dies. But that’s way okay!

    • It may not be all sunshine and roses. Some of these guys marry the OW to save face because they got found out. They want everyone to think it was twu luv and they *finally* found the love of their life. Often it’s just damage control. Liars most of the time live a lie until they die. Their whole lives are about lying to themselves and everyone else. Yes, your life certainly is way ok without him. We tend to be the authentic ones.

          • Very few men actually marry the whore, or even continue on with her whether they stay married or divorced. Of those that do marry the divorce rate is like 85/90 percent, if I remember right. Of those left, you have to assume not all of those are skipping hand in hand through life with constant smiles on their face. Though I am sure there are a small amount who are as happy as two liars can be. Maybe even happier, since they were likely previously married to someone who wasn’t a liar.

      • “Liars most of the time live a lie until they die. Their whole lives are about lying to themselves and everyone else. ”

        That is so true, and of course it is not specific to cheating on a spouse. My ex and his schmoopie have pretty much self destructed themselves financially and in terms of their relationship with his son. Of course, they still have a good relationship with her kids, so that’s all on him. I don’t know why I was surprised, and yet I was.

        No way would I allow my husband or he allow me, to treat each others kids the way they treated my son. Neither of us would even think of it.

        • Your son is probably one if those who can completely see through liars, users, etc., who then react like vampires exposed to the light of day. Truth, goodness, and light are simply intollerable to them.

          • Oh he is. He love his dad, but he knows he can’t trust him. And not just because of what happened with me.

            I never bad mouth his dad. If he ever asked me for advice, I would be honest; but I would always temper it with gentle words.

      • They can lie to themselves so effectively that they’re not even aware of it.

        My XW stated that she hadn’t been happy once in the last 10 years so that she would be justified in blowing up two marriage to be with her married AP. Because if we had just been having a few months of perfectly understandable strain (we were moving and starting new jobs after living apart for a few months while I was single parenting 3 kids who were finishing their school year) then she’d be a bad person for destroying a perfectly good marriage. Since she’s sure she’s a good person, she rewrote half our life together to make me (and our marriage) be shit and justify her actions. I don’t know if her new marriage is a good one or not (I really don’t want any more contact with her than the minimum), but I am absolutely sure that even if it’s terrible she will never admit it to anyone, least of all herself. Until the day she discards him (unless she ages out of the adultery racket, which could happen) she will tell everyone how wonderful he is. I know, because she did the same with me.

        • She thinks she won. Its like that saying about how the victor gets to rewrite history. Eventually everything comes out in the wash. Give it time. Then the true version of the history of your marriage to her will become apparent. These things eventually shake out, but it can take a long time. It’s worth waiting for, but by then you might not even care.

  • She’s so dumb, it’s embarrassing.

    Clearly he picked her as a side piece because she’s so stupid and he could string her along for a long time.

    I do feel a bit sorry for her, but not a lot. There’s no sign of her taking any real responsibility for getting any smarter, either. She’s just going to continue to be used because then in her mind, she doesn’t have to take responsibility for her own agency in being “duped.” Nothing is her fault, it’s all on the outside of herself.


    • I wonder how old she is. Mentally and emotionally, cheaters seem to never mature beyond childhood.

      I often read defensive letters from cheaters and expect the author to be a teenager. I’m always shocked when the author is revealed to be middle-aged with children in college. I shouldn’t be, but I am. The immaturity and narcissism are so shocking and repulsive.

      • That’s something I’ve noticed, especially in OW. They all seem to be in that 14-16 age range emotionally or mentally. Like they’re kissing Susie’s boyfriend under the bleachers and not helping destroy lives.

        • 100% agree.

          I’m sorry to say my grandmother was an other woman. We found out near the end of her life that she’d dated a married man for many years. Even went on trips with him and his children (!!) behind his wife’s back (!!!).

          She spoke of this man “saving her from her loneliness.” She had no concern whatsoever for the family she helped him betray. We were horrified at her lack of remorse.

          I’m pretty sure there were other affairs too, but she took those to the grave.

          I wish I could say I was surprised by her admission, but I wasn’t. She was always selfish and infantile, to the day she died at 95. More than one friend, upon meeting my grandmother, commented that it was like talking to a teenage girl.

          My point is, there’s something profoundly disturbed with these people – and they never change.

            • They don’t. I saw my grandmother and her children (all middled-aged or older adults) throw full tantrums. It was terrifying.

              Worse, people won’t understand it or believe it unless they’ve seen it for themselves. It’s why abuse is so isolating.

              • Totally true!! I know what you mean about your Grandma because I grew up as the child of an affair, my Mom was the OW my whole life. Y father’s first wife finally divorced him when I was about 12. Her and my Dad then married and hated each other and made each other (and us) miserable the rest of his life.

                My Mom was the stereotypical OW in a lot of ways, not so similar in others. But when my husband cheated, and cheated, and left, I was doubly heartbroken because I felt like I knew how these women think. I had lived both sides of that shit.

                And my Mom and her sisters were horribly emotionally messed up by my Grandmother, who was a narcissist to the nth degree. Pitting them against each other, spreading lies and bullshit, Lies and manipulation 25/7. I figure they’re all borderline because they were raised to be and raised by one.

            • This is true – people with Borderline Personality Disorder or Narcissism do not mature beyond teenage years – but what is scarier is that they can still graduate from Medical School – and all kinds of other occupations and professions that call for an above average IQ. That’s the scary part for me – that someone’s brain can be that divided that they can be a high functioning surgeon (my hooker habit fkwit doctor husband of 28 years married) – they can be these high functioning people whose lives they have in their hands in the OR – but yet they’re the creepy guy jacking off in their White Lab Coats after hours and booking whores and dungeons all over Los Angeles – laying with cheap whores but rubbing shoulders with their celebrity patients. It’s killing me – the split personality – his Sweater Man psychiatrist said it was due to his incredible ability to “compartmentalize” My fkwit took it as a compliment. Monster men – he stole 28 years of my life.

              • I know several that have had kick ass careers and actually lived a responsible life. Still they are emotionally inept and their private lives are a train wreck.

              • Narcissists are heavily invested as being seen as the best at everything. They are competitive and often quite successful because their ego and false mask won’t accept anything else. The only thing they care about is how others see them, and it better be as superior beings. Their very existence hinges on that. Psychiatry says they rarely change and it impossible without their comittment to change, which can take years of therapy. They can sometimes learn to alter their behavior, but not their disorder because its personality based and hard-wired into their psyche.

                A narcissist’s secret behind the scenes life doesn’t matter in a moral sense (to them) because its not what they show the world. Since its a secret, they can simply turn it off and step on stage, which is where they live the rest of their life. I’ve read your story on here, and its horrific. When you are done getting out of this with a good settlement, expose his ass and watch his fake world fall. It’s all a house of cards. I’m old. I’ve seen this play out a few times and its not pretty. They implode.

        • I can’t reply to your last comment below, so I’m replying here.

          Thank you for sharing your story. I’m sorry you had such a horrible experience. Sadly, it sounds par for the course with disordered people. Cheaters make such terrible parents.

          Interesting but not surprising that so many of us chumps were raised by disordered parents. Not always, of course, but I’ve noticed the pattern. Many of us were taught from infancy to caretake deranged lunatics and make our own needs small, so it makes sense we’d partner up with assholes who remind us of our families of origin.

  • This sounds like it came from the OW my cheater was with, even down to the bedsheet purchase. The only big difference. I did kick his butt out. She got her twu luv and it lasted maybe 9 months. Watch what you wish for!

  • The OW wrote a whinging message to my husband ”I am always second best to your wife – We did have sex though so I suppose that does make me the mistress?” Then posts feminist quotes and memes on social media. Girl you a deffo not part of the sisterhood – just another home wrecking slut! I divorced his sorry ass and shall never speak to him again! As for her she is nothing special – just one of hundreds he propositioned online! He is an opportunist narc. just hedging his bets. Good riddence not my problem anymore!

    • Oh yea. The owhore I dealt with, makes this one seem almost sane. That was delusion on a whole different level. Some of the texts I got from her would break the UBT permanently. Then again, what sane woman would be willing to screw a married man and buy into the bs? None.

      I literally got a text from whore where in one sentence she went on about how she chooses to believe everything cheater says (because she is special, soooo special) to justify fucking him and in the next sentence begs me to tell her if he is cheating on her – yup you are reading that right. Owhore was asking me if he is cheating on her. The level of insane is actually mind boggling with those sorts of women.

      Truly for all chumps – if you wish karma and punishment on your fuckwit, then hope and pray that they get stuck with OW/OM for years because anything less is insufficient punishment. Those who help cheaters cheat are even more disordered and deluded than the fuckwit.

      • Oh I know.

        I got kind of chastized her by someone who didn’t like that I said that when it happened all I wanted and in fact prayed about was that I wanted him to marry her. I was so afraid he wouldn’t and he would get off scott free.

        The person who was upset of course didn’t want that to happen, and I get that, but in my case I could think of no worse punishment. And I am pretty sure from the things my son and daughter in law have shared, he definately is reaping what he sowed. I imagine schmoopie is pretty happy as she was living at the poverty line and now at least he is paying her bills. He is the one who gave up his reputation, his standing in the comunnity, a solid family and half his worldly goods. Lol.

  • This summer a couple of friends set me up with a guy. After initial positive discussions it was revealed that he is married. Hell no from me.

    They were confused—I mean, come on, he is not MARRIED-married, they are like roommates, it has been over between them for years and he has only stayed married so he wouldn’t have to separate his wealth, why wouldn’t I want to hang out just to have fun?

    These “friends” knew of the hell I had been through with my X Asshat. I explained that I am certain my X used all those bullshit trope lines on the ho-workers he charmed and ultimately abandoned me for. Still, they were miffed that I rejected this “great guy” they were trying to connect me with.

    Too bad my boundaries were a problem for them. Too bad they think so little of me that I would consider being a side-piece after the hell I lived through. Too bad they are not actually friends who get that I don’t need it that bad.

    Too bad the lying cheater didn’t bother to divorce his roommate and now does not get to meet a great lady like me but instead will troll the bottom for tramps and whores.

    Too fucking bad.

    • But how wonderful for you!! Too bad your ‘friends’ aren’t truly your friends. The thing is, most people don’t understand the trauma until they go through it themselves.

    • Obviously he wants to keep his wealth, because any reasonable married guy supposedly not getting any would just go out and pay for it, right? But no, he wantsto step out with a kind, beautiful, whole, loving disease-free women. What a cake eater. Your ‘friends’ are pimps. You dodged a bullet.

    • It’s incredible how many shitty female “friends’ exist. There’s always a shitty woman there encouraging another woman to lie and cheat and helping them do it.

      • It is incredible that there are some many female ‘friends’ /enablers who buy into the devalue of the chump / blame shifting / unarticulated unhappiness and actively assist in breaking up a family – then have the gall to ‘not understand’ how the cheaters behaviour hasn’t changed after d day.

        • Right? I mean I was lucky in that so many folks knew us both really well, so he didn’t get as far as some. Plus at the time he was still trying to maintain the respect of his son, so he couldn’t go too far in trashing his mom. When he tried once to say something to our son, my son said “Dad don’t even go there, I lived with you two for 18 years, I know how mom treated you.” Then he said something else to his dad that you had to know his past with his dad to understand. But, he said it is like you always said dad, a stiff dick has no concience.

          Normally my son would never tell me something like that, but he was aware that I had heard it before coming from his dads mouth in the past. He thought it would give me a laugh, and it did.

          But, he went on to cheat on schmoopie several times, I am betting she was just flabbergasted that her magic twinkie didn’t keep him happy.

  • The balls to come on here and to write Chump Lady as a woman who wrecked a family. On behalf of all of us, FUCK YOU!

    You’re the epitome of a bad person. Don’t pretend you give a shit about the wife. You were happy to wreck that. Now you “care” because you found out you’re really just a piece of ass on the side?

      • Or it contains the secret to Nirvana. Apparently one made him see heaven. All I ever got to see was his dirty washing and coffee cups left everywhere around the house.

      • They do, and sadly so do many of the cheaters; at least until it is too late. I do believe some of these guys temporarirly lose their minds, especially at mid life. It is like they forget they are not a teen anymore. It is like it is all new to them, and it will last forever.

  • It’s been nearly seven years since my divorce. I “lost” my ex to the other woman. Not until my divorce had commenced did I even know she existed. For almost 17 years, we had a happy marriage – and yes, we shared the same bed and…shocker…had frequent sex right up until a few days before he left for her. (Gasp!)

    During the divorce, he did all sorts of things that made her purr with delight – you know, like filing restraining orders against the betrayed spouse, playing financial withholding games, serving the betrayed with divorce papers the day before their birthday. Oh, and my favorite, telling me he wanted a divorce a week after my mother’s funeral. The putrid shit that make the OW feel valued and worthy.

    Bad Person, perhaps by losing, you actually “win”. The OW in my marriage only gained a cheating asshole. She’s since been promoted from the role of supporting side chick to the leading role of wife(tress). Even though most of his family has accepted her, they know how she got there. That scarlet letter will always be worn by her – never by him. He’s now a first-time dad at age 49 to a toddler. He never wanted kids. Our retirement plan had our house being paid off within the next 6 years and retirement in our late 50s. He’s got a 25 year mortgage with her and no chance in Hell that he’ll ever retire. Oh, right, but they’re probably happy! Not so fast. In the last six months, ex husband has twice visited my page. Every visit records the guest’s name. I literally have nothing on my classmates page. Not sure what he gets from that – but perhaps he misses the centrality. I’m sure with a toddler, he’s less than central. It must be very hard for him. I have no desire to have his cyber visits (stalking), so I had classmates remove my profile.

    Now, let’s focus on you. What in your past has made you feel so inferior that you had to eat off of another woman’s plate? Or maybe it’s that you feel superior enough to grade someone else’s paper? Was your dad out of the picture when you were growing up? Are you trying to “win daddy back”? My therapist said that most OW have huge issues stemming from childhood. I’m sorry if you were hurt as a child, but you are an adult now and need to get help to fix that broken. The way his wife deals with the mess that you and HER husband created is, quite frankly, none of your business. Worry about fixing you. Trust me, until you do, you’ll continue to be a train wreck destroying innocent people.

    • I could have wrote this ( almost 18 months for me though )

      First time baby at 46

      But I’ve been left with the 25 year mortgage to be able to pay him off !!!
      Luckily no cyber stalking from either of them as I’m not on anything any more .

      I hope you are healing well

    • Your therapist is correct. Most OW had no father figure. I’m not sure how that would lead to having no qualms about breaking up another person’s marriage but it does for some strange reason.

  • 1 broken “picker” + 800 threads/square inch + 1 recently converted feminist = just one more narcisistic, lazy OW out there; also can add up to VERY Stupid Person….

  • NBP, if you honestly thought he was in an open marriage, you would’ve accepted that all you could expect from him is sex and wouldn’t have gotten involved with him at all if what you wanted was a committed monogamous relationship.

    Instead, you dangled your vagina over his head like a carrot and demanded he divorce his wife. That makes you a willing accomplice in the destruction of a marriage and family.

    • ^^^ Yep. I wish I had a dollar for all the times my STBX’s most recent AP disingenuously said she didn’t want to blow up our marriage, when it was in fact quite clear that she wanted to be Mrs. SBTX, and was hoping I would discover the truth and leave STBX. (I have a dump of texts between them from the last 7 weeks of their affair.) But AP was so emotionally screwed-up, I think she really believed her own BS. Newsflash, Not a Bad Person: Nobody who dates an unavailable person for over a year will be winning the Emotional Health Olympics!

  • “We fell in love, he said he loved me. He told me he had an understanding with his wife to have sex with other women because they had been sleeping separately for years.”

    Even if this were true (spoiler alert: it never is), why would you want this person? They’re clearly unavailable. You can’t build a life with such a person. You can’t bring them around to holidays with your family. What’s the point?

    Ok, ok. Let’s assume you don’t care about that and have no standards for your own life. You buy this bullshit story. Why wouldn’t you check with his wife to make sure he’s telling the truth? Funny how affair partners never do this.

  • Dear Not a Bad Person,
    Nobody wants to think they are a bad person, even when they lie, cheat, and steal. We humans will always frame our reasons as “good” in some way. The longer I live, the more I see that empathy is the main thing that spares people from hurting others. Sadly, given how self-centered your letter is, you seem to be lacking in it. The columnist Charles M. Blow once wrote, “One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient. In fact, a man convinced of his virtue even in the midst of his vice is the worst kind of man.” (Or, in your case, substitute “woman.”)

    You have done great harm to the family of the man you were “dating,” but you don’t even seem to care, except insofar as you try to co-opt the wife’s very different experience of betrayal. What could you have done differently? Well, for starters, you should stick to the dating pool of fully available people. If your potential partners are truly in an open or poly relationship of some kind, they should be actively offering to arrange a conversation between everybody involved to discuss what’s on the table. Otherwise, you need to assume that you are the covert Side Piece. And why would you ever sell yourself short like that, let alone risk destroying other peoples’ lives?

    As other chumps have said above, if you really want to work on yourself, invest in a therapist who will NOT let you off the hook for this damage. (Not all therapists are created equal.) When you’re shopping for therapists, show them this letter and see whether they express something constructive, other than mere empathy. Like, “we need to dig into your attachment issues that would make you so desperate for the attention of a married man that you would compromise your own values and cause significant collateral damage.”

    Everybody has good intentions. Even Hitler did! But when you ignore the humanity of others to get your way, your words/intentions don’t justify your actions. Instead of trying so damn hard to absolve yourself and to claim the mantle of victimhood, it’s time to step up and examine your own complicity, and whatever underlying fuckedupedness brought you here. That’s what you owe the chump/family in your case, and Chump Nation, since you brought us into it. In the process, you’ll be working on yourself – maybe that will sweeten the pot for you.

    • The trouble with these side pieces is that they don’t actually see what they do as inferior at all. They see themselves as superior, better than, special.

      Delusional people don’t actually understand that they are delusional and don’t really see problems with their behavior. Case in point – this idiot “is not a bad person” in her head and she is “a victim” also in her deluded head. You can point that out and slap her upside the head until she bleeds, but she’ll never see herself as anything other than special, her story is twu luv and we all here are just bitter a holes who don’t get how different she is. The latter is actually true, just not in a good way she imagines.

      • Well said Follishchump. You are absolutely right. These home wrecking whores OW’s are mean-spirited as well. I often wonder if the tables were turned how they would feel if their husband up and left them with only a parting gift of an STD. I have been on the receiving end of an onslaught of horrific e-mails and phone calls from my fkwit husbands 30th prostitute (yes, 30 he can remember) the vile horrific insults were bad enough she now sends all his love letters to me to prove how much he loved her. What bothers me the most is City Source and The Erotic Review and City Vibe and all these God-forsaken whore and porn sites are so accepted in today’s world – it seems as though ‘meh’ is the attitude toward illegal prostitution. She extorted him as well for thousands, but he wouldn’t go to the police because Mr. fancy pants Beverly Hills surgeon was committing misdemeanors as a john/solicitation and the courts only want the johns – they sympathize with the whores. As I’ve posted before….the system is corrupt – most of these cheap whores blow off the judges and mayors and most definitely the police. These fkwits have made SEX dirty – when it used to be (for me anyhow) beautiful. Not anymore.

        • I ignored the nasty OW in my case. Heck I didn’t even know who she was for a while. But, once outed, she told my H she was getting calls from me. Never happened. I never even thought of it.

          When he approached me, I said she is either lying or someone else is calling her; I wouldn’t give either one of you tyhe satisfaction of doing that and you know it.

          He slunk away. I am pretty sure she was trying to work up a case against me. She knew he was in my house and used our phone to call her. I got the locks changed soon after he moved out. So if push came to shove, unless he snuck in, she would have been proven wrong. But, he knew better, so I am sure he told her to knock it off he was not going to make any accusations against me.

          I would have taken a like detector test on the condition that she take one too had they filed any action against me. So yes don’t preach to me about how these whores are blameless.

          I take great comfort knowing that he has spent the rest of his life tied to that ignoran slut. And because we share a grown son, I know that it has been one crisis after another with them. Living the dream. Lol.

      • I totally agree with you, Foolishchump: I was addressing Not a Bad Person as if she were emotionally healthy and/or mature, even though it’s quite likely she is neither. Maybe she’ll hear me, maybe not. Maybe the things we say could plant a seed that will work its way gradually through to her consciousness at some point in the dim and distant future. Some people do report that wisdom creeps up on them eventually – maybe only after the consequences start to pile up.

        In general, I feel like it’s worth speaking the truth just the one time, and then to let go of the outcome. Emotionally healthy people will hear the truth and respond accordingly; others will not. But, since NaBP did take the time to write in to CL – I figure, it’s worth the one shot.

        Now, back to focusing our energy on chumps, not cheaters! All best to you, (NotSo)Foolishchump.

        • PS: One of the reasons I wrote out my thoughts as I did was that I really wish that everybody in Western culture would get the memo that “good intentions” and “good feelings” don’t absolve harm. It’s still necessary to make real amends for real harms.

          I’m working on that concept with my kids, at least! Will see how that goes. They’re both decent people, but have grown up in a household dominated by my covert narc STBX, and I fear the kids might have received very confusing messages about whether good intentions confer blanket immunity for all damages.

          I just read an abridged version of Jane Austen’s Sense and Sensibility, and then watched the BBC miniseries, with DD9. In case you don’t know the story, Marianne Dashwood is a very emotionally volatile character who, at 17, believes she is madly in love with a dashing rake, but fortunately does not end up marrying him. One of the most powerful scenes (at least now, to me as a chump) is when Marianne realizes that she could grow to love an older man who is less shiny but extremely dependable and caring. She says, “It isn’t what we say or think that defines us, but what we do.” I made sure to talk about that idea with DD9!

          • And that is an important message and I totally agree with you. Likewise, I wish that people would wake up and stop excusing evil deeds in the name of good intentions or feelings.

            As for getting through to any ow or fuckwit, I think that’s where we chumps need to learn to accept that disordered people exist and that they are beyond redemption because they don’t actually see themselves as broken. Superior, special, even misunderstood victims, but not as disordered, no.

            These lunatics do not change and if you can see behind the mask, run. The covert ones are the worst. Gives a whole new meaning to sleeping with an enemy who pretends to be your friend while plotting your demise figuratively speaking (although in some cases quite literally too).

          • Re Sense and Sensibility, I haven’t seen the TV series, but love the book. Willoughby is the very model of an entitled narcissist, especially when he ‘has the sadz’ after he’s married and goes to see Marianne.

            Elinor points out to Marianne that he only ‘regrets’ what he has done because he’s now financially secure, whereas if he hadn’t married money, he’d be bitching about his poverty, and blaming Marianne for it.

            Typical narc. ????

    • Your last para applies to the cheater too. Had my ex not been so nasty in his devaluing stage against me, when he called several times wanting to “talk” I may have been more receptive. He had no empathy for me as a human being, let alone his wife of many years. He likely would have never treated a friend that badly.

      No, as you say his need to justify himself was formost. He had no empathy for me, and was therefore able to ignore my humanity. Oh there was a letter a couple months down the line about how sorry he was for being such a lowlife, (his words) but it really meant nothing by then. The gutting was complete.

      If he had treated me as a fellow human being, he could have still left, taken the responsibility on himself and left me with a shred of at least my past to hold on to.

      • Yes, you’re quite right, Susie Lee. Most cheaters have even worse lapses of empathy than their APs, because of course the AP never made any commitments to the chump in the situation! The cheater bears a greater moral and ethical responsibility. BUT, that doesn’t let the AP off the hook. Most of them are still complicit, and lack empathy when it counts as well.
        Please see my responses to Foolishchump for why I addressed NaBP as I did.

  • Hmmm-I’m so used to that whole, “I let the chump know what was going on because I care” bullshit.

    My ex told me that he generously let his shmoopie’s husband know what happened between them (because shmoopie had dumped my ex pretty quickly after the whole affair started) out of the goodness of his heart….

    Oh-and he also told the wife of the guy that ratted him out to me (about his first affair) that her husband was hitting on me! I get a panicked call from her asking what happened and i had NO idea my ex said something to her!

    The best part of all of the mess I’ve been through with the ex:

    At first this seemed like the worst thing that could happen to me. Now I know-it was the BEST thing that could ever happen to me-because I am SO much happier without that loser!

  • oh….this OW “Not a Bad Person” is a homewrecking whore. Whether they take money or not, any women that sleeps with a married man is a whore. Shame on this woman. If a married man so much as looked at me sideways he’s be holding an ice pack on his magic pickle. Thank you Chump Lady for attempting to explain to this “Note a Bad Person” exactly what the reality is – however, they are so deep into their own deception I doubt she can understand your brilliant analysis.

  • I guess it’s not surprising that cheaters and their collaborators follow this site. Like trying to get the kids of the affair-busted home to “accept” the cheating relationship, hijacking sympathy in a forum full of chumps would be like grabbing an ultimate self-exculpating brass ring.

    But just like it’s pretty easy to search for someone’s marital status online these days, it’s even easier in the age of Google (or Duckduckgo if you don’t want your searches sent to the NSA) to search things like “ethical non-monogamy” and discover you’re supposed to communicate with the partner or spouse to ensure all-party consent before getting involved on any level, particularly if there are children in the scenario.

    If not, then you’re a homewrecker.

    I’m a lifelong feminist with a long list of kiss-my-ass creds in that arena and I’ve never minded the term homewrecker. Homewrecker doesn’t have a gender designation and doesn’t reduce the culpability of the cheater any more than naming the “lookout” or “getaway driver” diminishes the guilt of bank robbers or kidnappers. It’s also not racially loaded on top of being genderized like “side chick” (usually reserved for non-white affair participants) or “mistress” (usually reserved for white). It’s just descriptive of the act and role in the way that accurate disease-naming references the disease process and, when known, causes (say, “drug-induced dementia”).

    It’s also easy to Google things like “effects of adultery on children” and the fact that a cheating spouse who spends money on a secret affair is technically defrauding community/marital assets so that anyone benefiting from this fraud becomes technically an accessory, even if this is not legally punishable in most states.

    Because it’s so easy to look these things up, rather than fading into the shadows of history, terms like “homewrecker” are all the more apt these days. When someone has easy means to know the destructive effects of their actions and refuses to use those resources, it’s the same as deliberately wreaking this destruction regardless of whether they were acting in tandem with someone even more culpable.

    As far as this being done for “love,” the same case has been made for some who participate in or commit first degree murder. The rationale doesn’t tend to go over well with juries.

    I actually burst out laughing on hearing that the AP my cheater had an affair with, after a three and a half hour self-pitying crying jag following D-Day when she was summarily dumped (I still lawyered up), wailed that she was “Not that woman”– “that” obviously being “a homewrecker.” She had the term in mind because she knew what she had done, not because anyone called her this to her face.

    But indeed she was “that” in every sense, all the more for denying it and not lamenting or even acknowledging the harm done to a family, including children. Willful blindness and self-exculpation are apparently part and parcel. It’s been interesting seeing the studies on “mate poaching” psychology along side studies on cheater mentality. It seems poachers, like cheaters, have some distinct personality traits, use distinct tactics and engage in elaborate processes of rationalization, like denying the victim (disparaging, blaming victims), denying the injuries to others (never thinking about what children may suffer), claiming “higher authority” (i.e., “twu wuv”), denying norms and condemning the condemners. Poachers, as well as cheaters, tend to score high on psychopathy and narcissism compared to non-cheaters and non-poachers, tend to be mean and unreliable and more likely to abuse substances and engage in high risk sex. Poachers are also individually more likely to have eating disorders, unstable relationships and to consume media programs in which seemingly positive protagonists cheat or poach (“Gray’s Anatomy,” “One Tree Hill,” etc.). Poachers and cheaters show obvious “infidelity tolerance” which has in turn been clinically associated with higher “rape myth acceptance.” I wouldn’t be surprised to see studies in the future associating mate poaching and cheating with hybristophilia– those who are aroused by people who commit various outrages like lying, cheating, theft, murder, etc. — since both cheaters and poachers have every reason to know they’re enmeshed with someone deceitful, callous and unethical and, in many cases, those capable of harming children for their own gain.

    I suppose there’s some sympathy to be fished out in the above, like what kind of spooky, awful childhood would someone have to have to be capable of participating in such a thing? But the same question is asked in the wake of a range of ill deeds, from bullying to serial murder. It might be useful in terms of future prevention, like taking present measures to shield children from the traumas that lead to adult misdeeds (adult cheaters and poachers are often the children of cheaters, for example. Go figure). But stick a fork in most adult perpetrators– “understanding” is not necessarily about amnesty.

    Nope, this is not the place to come to bolster up rationalizations or launder the images for cheaters. You are “that” all the more for claiming victim status. It’s funny how the only ones who hate being victims and hate the designation are the actual victims. Perps adore the title.

    • I take exception to the characterization of childhood trauma spawning cheaters and narcissist. I and many women that I know, who have been chumped, had pretty bleak childhoods but still managed to grow up to be empathetic, giving, kind people. Indeed I think that seeing the cold, callousness of the world at a young age can teach you to especially value justice and kindness.And really in this day and age, I think having a dysfunctional/traumatic family relationship is more common than having a happy, intact nuclear family. One of the main reasons that I stuck it out as long as I did, is that I wanted more than anything to provide my child with the normal, happy childhood that I missed out on, even if I had to sacrifice parts of myself to do it.
      On the other hand, shitbag had a privileged youth and his family back’s him in all of his endeavors. Of course one never knows what really happens in families, but I’ve known plenty of terrible, selfish, no-good people from great families. From my observation, hardship or trauma is possibly the catalyst for exacerbating and hardening antisocial personality traits that someone already has, but it doesn’t create those traits whole-cloth. Entitlement, narcissism, cluster b personality disorders are different in quality from other maladaptive behaviors, because they do “work” for the people that have them, it’s those around them that suffer. Where as most other maladaptive coping behavior s work against the person that has them.
      But it doesn’t matter why someone sucks, as long as you know that they’re behavior is unacceptable.

      • ” I take exception to the characterization of childhood trauma spawning cheaters and narcissists”.

        Me too. It comes down to *character*. Cheating is always a choice.

        • It absolutely is.

          I never claimed to be a perfect wife. Though not often and usually when he was being a butt, I would get quiet for a couple days. But, all in all I was loayl, certainly loved him though he was also imperfect. In fact he pretty much got things his way (he knows that). But I didn’t think hmmm, he isn’t perfect, think I go find me some strange.

          • Exactly.

            I wasn’t perfect either, who is? But like you I was 100% loyal. He was a total shit to me in so many ways, but I never considered for one second cheating on him.

            I remember him once saying to me, something along the lines of would, did I, ever consider cheating. I replied no, ever since I’d first met him the thought had never crossed my mind, I loved him too much.

            I remember he smirked, and said oh, that’s so nice and flattering. Fucking bastard gobshite.????????????

      • “I take exception to the characterization of childhood trauma spawning cheaters and narcissist. ”

        I do too, but if you noticed, there are also posts and even article that folks who grew up in dysfunctional homes are more likely to be cheated on. It seems a way to me to blame the parents no matter what happened.

        My parents weren’t perfect, but they taught me right from wrong, and they taught me to be strong. They also taught me to trust my spouse because they trusted each other. Aside from that I always referred to our family as lovingly dysfunctional, as I believe most families are in some way.

        It isn’t the Chumps fault he/she got betrayed, and it is the cheaters fault that they did what they did. Yes childhood always plays a part in how we end up. But, geese give the parents a break. Sometimes a family will have several kids and only one is an asshole.

  • My ex-narc starting having an affair with his bosses wife, which is whore (I mean, who) he left me for.

    When things started going sideways about a year later (and also after she had left her husband for ex-narc), she came in the middle of the night and spray painted the most lovely messages on my home and garage. Most of the messages were for him (complete with fake name + asterisk, John*), but my personal message said, “Fuck you, bitch,” along with a nice spray painted penis. A week before Christmas…a true Hallmark moment.

    Because this was obviously not going well, ex-narc told her that he made a mistake leaving me for her and a reconciliation was in the works. It was not. I had barely spoken to him since he blamed me for everything, shared his extensive list of reasons why I suck and waltzed out the door with his personal hygiene items a year prior.

    He was fake-triangulating her with me, as she attempted her own wreck-concilation with boss man. That didn’t work out either.

    She was accusing me – the original, betrayed wife – for being a fucking bitch because now ex-narc told her he was back in my bed and trying to work things out.

    Problem is, I hadn’t a clue we were supposedly trying to get back together until the black spray paint messages appeared. My sisters came over to help clean this shit up. Oh, in sub-zero temperatures with frostbite advisories.

    I un-affectionately refer to this one as “Spray Paint.”

    And so are the days of our lives…

    • I’ve yet to see someone cheat with a better person or a more stable person. It seems to be someone who is incredibly fucked up. Men especially, like to fuck with crazy. Cheating women like to mess with “bad boys.”

      • I’ve noticed this, too.

        Cheaters follow “feelings.” The sex over there is feels good, so that’s where they go until the shiny wears off. Then there’s new sex somewhere else, so they go there. And on and on.

        People who follow their feelings, by definition, are unstable. You can’t build or maintain a foundation on sparkles. Stability requires discipline and consistency and reciprocity – things cheaters lack. They have no idea who they really are, because that would require having values, so they HAVE to rely on ephemeral stuff like feelings.

        I’ve learned not to trust adults who rely on feelings. Solid people are clear on what they want, who they want it with, goals, and values. You know, stuff that’s tangible and lasting.

          • Yep. My ex told me after I let him come back, because he asked; I didn’t. He said at the end of that long awful week, “I just can’t get the feeling back” I said you need to leave, and you have one week to decide if you want to go to counseling with me.

            But, as for the feeling, I wish I had known more back then, I would have said: “of course you can’t geet the feeling back as long as you are engaged in illicit sex, I can’t compete with that, that isn’t what long term love is.

            But, it wouldn’t have mattered, because at that time they think the sparkle will last.

            • What an awful, awful person. I’m so sorry.

              If there’s anything I learned from infidelity – and the ensuing years of therapy – it’s that you can’t change people.

              That was a painful realization, but liberating in its own way. Once chumps realize who a person is, it’s easier for us to reprioritize elsewhere rather than waste time trying to prove our worth to a horrible person.

              • Oh yeah it was painful in real time.

                Years later now, I can look at it in abstract as just one of the things cheaters do, or say.

                I also found out I would have no trouble meeting someone who would have profound feelings for me. Though at the time, I certainly didn’t think it, or even want it.

      • Word. My ex husband got his ass beat and got to (literally) eat shit in a calculated attack by the OW and OW’s husband. He had tried to sneak out in the middle of the night and “ride around and talk to get closure” (heh) and as soon as he got in her car her husband popped out if the back seat and they took him to a deserted parking lot where they delivered aforementioned ass-beating and stuffed shit in his mouth. I still look back upon that day and smile. It gives me the warm fuzzies, honestly. I laughed my ass off.

        Because I am a chump, I forgave him (figuring he learned his lesson) and stayed with him another three years until he left me for a different college aged howorker three weeks after I buried my father. I sleep well at night, though. Apparently they didn’t beat his ass well enough to teach him anything lol.

        • W.o.w.

          Talk about karma! Now if something like that doesn’t make you change your ways, I don’t believe anything will. smh

        • Oh my God-that story is hilarious! Tears of laughter rolling down my cheeks. He was literally forced to eat crap…

        • Wow!

          Do you ever look back and wonder how you tolerated so much for so long? I know I did. Both my therapist and my friends give me a thousand yard stare whenever I share what I put up with.

          I don’t want to say that we chumps dodged a bullet (because we all clearly took damage), but it’s such a relief to look back on what’s no longer in our lives.

          • “Do you ever look back and wonder how you tolerated so much for so long?”

            Oh, yeah. In fact it’s one of the things I look back on and feel so angry with myself that I had so little sense of self worth.

            As far as I *know*, he wasn’t cheating on me throughout the marriage (but who the hell knows, he probably was), but I put up with physical, verbal and emotional abuse for many years.

            I am still so angry with myself for that, and am still trying to understand why I accepted it – my dad was emotionally distant, (and a selfish shit, and my mum’s a narc) ) so that’s probably part of it.

            I sometimes think I should get into therapy, but I’m a UK chump, I think it’s more of an American thing. We in the UK are all stiff upper lip! ????????????

            • I’m from New York. People here think you’re crazy if you DON’T have a shrink. ????

              You can’t blame yourself for the abuse or why you “put up with it.” You really can’t. This is psychology and neuroscience talking, not weakness on your part. Trauma messes with your head the same way it messes with soldiers in battle. You reacted the way you did because you were under attack.

              Yes, that may look like sticking by the abuser’s side. That’s not stupidity or weakness, it’s trauma bonding. And not having the full information. How could you? You were being manipulated … while operating from a completely different operating system. Morals! Loyalty! Til death do us part!

              How could you have known your cheater wasn’t playing by the same rule book? You couldn’t. You didn’t.

              So, please be kind to yourself. You didn’t know what you know now. Once you knew better, you did.

      • Shesucks– If male cheaters have Madonna/Whore complexes, what do they call the female version of this? A Jesus/Thug complex?

        Guess who you get to be in that scenario?! I don’t mean Big Lebowski Jesus since that wouldn’t be a dichotomy.

        By the way, can you please end the pandemic soon, ye King of Kings? Amen.

    • Is it possible your ex had someone else on the line and instead of coming clean (cause she was batshit crazy) blamed reconciling with you for giving her the heave ho?

      • It’s interesting you say that and yes, totally possible. When he and Spray Paint officially blew up, he hooked up with “Ernie” before that shit show was even cold. Been with Ernie ever since.

        I call this one “Ernie” because before I unfollowed/unfriended on Facebook, she posted a pic of them in bed with a caption stating that they “make such a great team.” Like Bonnie & Clyde, Hans & Chewbacca, Beevis & Butthead and of course, Bert and Ernie. Ernie stuck.

    • Wow, he did good didn’t he?

      Your situation reminds me of one of the time my ex evidently told a couple friends and a neighbor across the street that we were getting back together. I only know this because my neighbor came across the street to wish me well, I said; “we aren’t geetting back together, I don’t knwo why he said that.” Didn’t think a whole lot of it at the time. But now that I know the triangulation theory of cheaters, I wonder if schmoopie was acting up and he was trying to get her to dance prettier.

      He evidently told his best friend too, as his best friend and his wife came to see me, (they were my friends too) and his best friend told me that when he told him we were getting back together he told him “I told you, you were going to regret this”

      So who knows, but I am thinking triangulation to get schmoopie to earning her place better. This was after we were legally seperated for about two months.

      • Yeah, he got himself a real couple of upgrades there.

        Your ex, too. I guess he liked the movie playing in his mind. Another couple of examples of no matter how hard you try, you will never make sense out of crazy (a/k/a Untangling the Skein).

        So, if you can’t really triangulate with real people, just make up a good story then. Whatever works to take the pick me dance up a notch or two. An obvious strategy for those of us who aren’t getting it (a/k/a Living in Reality).

        Is fake triangulation a thing?

    • HowDidIGetHere and Suzie Lee–

      Cheater dumped AP the second he knew I knew so he could claim reconciliation as the reason. He admitted he’d never intended for the affair to be a long term thing and to using me and the kids as an excuse not to commit. He’d apparently grown more and more afraid of her crying fits and ultimatums, sure she’d blow up and wreck his work reputation or tell me. Once I knew, that still left concerns about his position so he told the AP I’d destroy *her* job, tell her family, etc., jujitsuing the AP’s blackmail. I think he thought I’d find this clever since his income supports the kids.

      That’s me– just a scare puppet and an “Electrified Fence” sign. He put this and other damning views of the AP in writing which my attorney gleefully put in the file, saying that, if deposed, the AP would get to hear about what was said about her in the case she was tempted to perjure herself and risk prison for cheater’s sake.

      • Wow, Hell of a Chump

        It’s amazing how he wasn’t prepared to get burned if he chose to play with fire. Better to throw you into the fire. I’m so glad you’re attorney was able to find a potential use for all that AP garbage.

        I’m sure he believes he’s dazzled you with his cleverness. IMO, just made himself look like even more of a moron. Glad you’re rid of him!!

        • I don’t know if cheaters are capable of real thought, not in the midst of the carnage and not in the aftermath. Real thought would only reveal the bite marks and hatchet wounds on the corpses at the crime scene. In place of thought, it’s all ape-like impulse, reaction and self protective strategy with random words slathered over it like a stinking sauce.

          Sorry to wax poetic (and gross). It’s just the vision that came to mind at the word “thought.” In effect they condemn themselves to never being safe to think again.

          • Hell,
            ‘I don’t know if cheaters are capable of real thought, not in the midst of the carnage and not in the aftermath. Real thought would only reveal the bite marks and hatchet wounds on the corpses at the crime scene. In place of thought, it’s all ape-like impulse, reaction and self protective strategy with random words slathered over it like a stinking sauce.’

            This is way more poetic than they deserve but it’s soooo good.

            • Yep.

              I have in the past wondered how my ext faired at work after they all knew he was screing his employee. I mean a lot of them were screwing around on their own wives, but they weren’t as judgemental as the ex was.

              I am not Christian bashing, as I am one and while not perfect I at least try to keep the commandments and not hurt other people. He spent several years talking about how awful it was that these guys were committing adultery, and hurting their families. Then there he was…

  • I actually think this OW wrote to this site because she thinks/knows that the wife reads here. I would not be surprised at all. She’s trying to stay involved and find out any info she can from the chump. It just feels like a violation. She’s obsessed with the wife—and she needs to just go away. I do hope the wife reads here and doesn’t waste any more time on that guy. Don’t be like me and waste 17 years of your life.

    • That is beyond cruel. I’m so sorry your marriage ended on such an extremely low note.

      All shitty people who more than deserve each other.

  • Dear Not A Bad Person,

    Yes, you are.

    You did not get played. You are one of the players. A cheater needs a side fuck to cheat. The only person who gets played is the unsuspecting partner. The Club of Decent Humans calls the unsuspecting partner THE MOMENT THE PASS IS MADE.

    He is not your boyfriend. You are not his girlfriend. You are not “seeing each other.” You are not “dating”. Those are terms reserved for unmarried people who
    are in a relationship.

    You are an illicit illegitimate lower companion. Also an asshole and an idiot. He’s a douche bag and an idiot.

    Take my husband. Please. Loyalty turns me on. So does honor and integrity. I also like having those qualities, in addition to sleeping peacefully at night and not being a party to destroying the lives and security of children and saddling them with massive issues for the rest of their lives. Not to mention what cheating does to the spouse….

    (Hint: cheating works better than murder to fuck up another human being.)

    Good luck with your lying cheating traitor.
    You’re a good match.

    Mine cheated on the lowlife he left me for.

    Hahahahahahahaha. No backsies.

    • Exactly, you are not dating; you are comitting adultery. Doesn’t matter how many flowers you bring her, how much you wuv him, you are committing adultery.

      Dating is for two single people.

      One of the definitions of adultery:
      ” the person your spouse has been unfaithful with does not have to be married for it to be adultery.”

    • Yes, they are in a relationship that could get them stoned to death in some countries. They are not in a love match. They are so full of shit.

  • This pisses me off so much that I have to rant and get this off my chest. Disgustingly, I found out from the other woman’s “friend” what was said about me. I didn’t really want this information, but this woman decided to contact me and tell me because she was so disgusted by my ex and his whore.

    Apparently my ex told his very young OW that I was so controlling he couldn’t do anything he wanted. EVER. I wouldn’t let him go out and I wouldn’t let him play video games or see his fwends. He also told her that I wouldn’t have the kind of sex he wanted. Apparently, I gave him permission to have sex with other women (and this permission apparently was to have sex with a woman we both worked with). News to me!

    I was so furious when I heard this. It was almost as hard to get over as the cheating itself. WHY? Because it was complete bullshit. The truth was, I was so un-controlling that I became a doormat over time. That is, he was so insistent that he do whatever he wanted that I always rolled over. Example – it’s our kid’s sports on Saturday morning but he was always too tired/hung over to go. So, The Chump went. Who was home on the Friday night by herself, AGAIN? The Chump. WHY? Because he was such an important guy he had to wine and dine clients. I didn’t know he was also fucking them, and hookers too. He was an avid football watcher and played card games – I never blocked any of that, but occasionally I would want to do something with my husband, and of course, he was annoyed that we might actually do something together that wasn’t about his hobbies. Also, and most annoyingly, who was having sex with my husband? ME! The Chump. And what was The Chump doing? Wearing all kinds of sexy things, giving BJs, getting thrown across the kitchen table and being made love to like the movies. I’m about as far from frigid as one gets!

    Chump Lady, you will be proud of me. I wrote a really long letter to the OW explaining to her how I was an accommodating wife who kept the house clean, made the food, organised the social calendar, took care of our family, did all the maintenance, kept the business running and let her man do what he wanted with his time. I also wrote to her the finer details of our sex life in lurid detail, outlining the frequency and styles, how we had a special thing for doing it in our shower, how we held each other and fell asleep in each other’s arms afterwards in the very expensive bed we bought, with the very expensive linens. We would giggle and laugh at the in-jokes we had after 25 years together. We were oftentimes like 20 year olds and he told me he got butterflies when he thinks of me still after all these years.

    BUT, I didn’t send the letter. They can think what they want. He knows the truth in his heart. He probably had to say all those things to make it feel better to betray me and the same goes for her – she probably feels great thinking she “saved” him from such a bad marriage. Well, they’ve got each other now. I hope it was worth it. She’s got the steaming pile of crap that he made of his life.

    • I’m glad you didn’t send the letter. It would have made you appear like you were pick-me dancing. And I have no doubt she did end up with a steaming pile of crap. But you are so much better off without it. Congratulations for getting free.

  • I had an OW (who used to be my best friend for 30 years) call me a couple of weeks ago. She betrayed our friendship with my first husband and my second husband (IamChump). She wanted to call to see how I was and let me know how fondly she remembers me, how loyal I was. Meh. She wanted to come over and hang outside at my bonfire, reconnect and heal. Meh. She let me know she’s not sexual anymore, hasn’t had sex in years. Meh. Instead of communicating ‘my truth’ to her, I listened for her self-centered narcisssim. I was the perfect Chump for her over the years, reflecting back her beauty, her challenges, her strength and needs. Now I’m different, I love myself and only want to be surrounded by healthy people who love and respect me. I have no hard feelings, you don’t blame a snake for being a snake. But you don’t invite a snake back into your life, much less my charming bonfire.

    • I guess she’s waiting for you to get a third husband to see if she can steal him away from you? The only thing I can think of is she covets your life and wants everything that you have. If that’s the case, you should definitely avoid her. There’s really something wrong with her.

      • I’m pretty sure it was an attempt at manipulation, for me to show her my loyalty to her by letting her back in my life. It’s all so easy for me to see now, I’m not at all triggered to ‘win’ her back.

  • For me it’s more the trying to get the man to leave his wife that brings rage at the OW’s more than merely sleeping with them. Ex had three OW’s that I know of. The first was an EA. I despise her most of all and they never even had sex. In that case, she was the aggressor. She was pick me dancing like mad and trying very hard to get him to crack. He didn’t that time, but she is the one who put the notion in is head that if I wasn’t good enough for him, he had other options. After DDay he said that before he had his first PA he regretted not having gone physical with her. His second affair partner slept with him for a few months and then broke it off because she didn’t feel right about sleeping with someone else’s husband. I don’t feel sorry for her for getting hurt, but I am not really angry with her either. She didn’t fight for him. She didn’t throw me into a competition I had no intention of entering. The final OW, the Schmoopie he left me for, did pick me dance. She didn’t just sleep with him, she fought for him, all while pretending to feel bad about the affair. Even after DDay when she knew, without any doubt, that I did care, that I still loved him and was all in on reconciliation, she didn’t walk away. She didn’t feel so guilty that she didn’t send him movie invites, show up at his work, ask him to come “rescue” her when her husband left her “stranded” at a restaurant (she probably told him to fuck off and he did and doesn’t she have any other friends she could have called?). The one that really sticks in my craw, however, is her sympathy towards ex when we ended the marriage counseling because he had decided he wanted to give up on the marriage and move out (not to be with her of course). She sent him a loving, caring text “how do you feel?” which brought tears to his eyes as he showed it to me. “See, she knows how to show sympathy”. Bitch. I know he is the one who blew up our marriage and I blame him for that, but it still pisses me off when he tries to claim she is completely innocent of any wrong doing and the kids and I should all accept her with open arms. Not. It’s good that he takes responsibility for his actions, but she is no saint.

    There was one other attempt he made when he made a pass at a woman who had been first friends with him and then friends with me for years. In her case, she shut it down instantly, went away, and he never heard from her again. I wish they had all responded that way.

  • I spent 21 years in the military. All through my 20s and into my early 30s I was hit on by at least one married man a month. They were ALL conveniently either “going through a divorce” or in “an open marriage.” Not once did i ever reciprocate. I initially asked to confirm with wife. Not once did any of these men bring forth wifey to confirm. Not once. By my mid 20s, I didn’t even bother asking to confirm with the wife. I have ZERO sympathy for this self serving slut. The mere fact that the wife demanded no contact was the first obvious clue that they weren’t in an open marriage. Stupid is as stupid does. In this case shut is as shut does. The poster is both stupid and a slut.

    • Sugar Plum, I totally get this. Same here-I was supposedly in an “open marriage”. If that was the case, why did they have to sneak around? Why did I find their secret little cards written to each other going behind my back? How is it that she worked with me, and yet, if we were in an open marriage, she didn’t say anything to me. Like, “hey” after work today I’ll be fucking your husband. Next week it’s your turn. No-that’s because the open marriage was horse shit. To add insult to injury, my ex told me that his whore “feels so bad that she ruined our marriage.” Really? I don’t accept that. Also, I think he was the one who ruined it – she was just the unlucky idiot who fell for his shit. The OW are as deluded as our cheaters. Really, it must feel amazing to think someone will ruin their whole life to be with you. I think they get the biggest kibbles out of it. These OW don’t have to lose their children, their friends, their jobs, their loyal spouses, their communities. They gain the cheater – major ego boosts. I imagine that this might wear off over time and turn into pressure. I often think, good lord – she has a lot to live up to now that my husband left everything for her. She’s young and dumb, and I can’t see how she will handle all the mental health issues he apparently has now. Fuck them.

  • It’s interesting you should say that.

    If you knew he was making passes at other women, but they all shut him down, would you have stayed with him?

    He would still have the mind set of a cheater, wouldn’t he? Would you have accepted that?

  • This type of BS is infuriating to read. HE did not lie to you. YOU lied to YOURSELF.
    I was asked a few years back by a married man to have an affair.
    My answer?
    “Do you love your wife?”
    “What you are asking is deeply disrespectful and unkind to her”
    The next day he comes back and says she has agreed to an open marriage. He presumes this means it’s a green light. My answer:
    “Even IF that were true, you are still operating under the assumption that I believe being a side piece is something with which I’m ok. I’m not. I deserve the whole deal-with a GOOD man”
    You don’t sleep with someone who is in that type of position NO MATTER their excuses. HEALTHY people get their house in order before getting into a relationship. Sort yourself out before you try bringing another person into the mix. Sheesh!

  • The OW writes: “When I asked what would he said to her about me, he replied he would lie and he would do ‘whatever it takes.’…”

    Well, there you have it. He admitted that he lies to get whatever he wants.

    I guess it didn’t dawn on the OP that he would lie to *her* because twu wuv and all that We wanna believe what we wanna believe. I mean, as a chump, I can’t claim to have been the sharpest tool in the shed myself. I was oblivious to a 2 1/2 year affair. ????????‍♀️

    Well, I love this post because the UBT made me spit out my coffee: “Yeah, we’re all equal. OMG, go boil your head.” Thanks for the laugh CL.

    • Nah. The saying goes that OW/OMs believe the cheater lies TO the betrayed spouse but lies FOR the affair partner so it is all groovy. They will never wake up and are smugly complicit in the destruction.

      We chumps are simply guilty of trusting our spouses until they clobbered us awake with their deceit. Not the same, so we should give ourselves a break.

    • Spinach@35

      I don’t think you can be too hard on yourself, in retrospect there were so many warning signs and sirens with “I am cheating” in flashing lights, that should have got me thinking. However, as CL says we are playing a different game to our cheating spouses with different rules, so we don’t even think its a possibility.

  • When is it ever OK (because you never gave your word to the contrary ) to do things that you know will hurt other people and create all kinds of damage in their lives?
    Why do so many people still give a pass to the OW just because they are not the ones who made a vow to the betrayed?
    When is being a co-conspirator to abuse fine?
    I’m starting to think of the OW’s as covert bullies. Some of them are overt bullies, but others just act sweet like they just couldn’t help falling in love or they believed nonsense like one was sleeping on the roof and one was sleeping in a closet with no touching. They are really just selfish covert bullies. This letter writer pats herself on the back for not excepting the designation of other woman, yet she is proud to except the title of family destroyer.

  • I have a friend who was taken in by one of those nasty guys. The difference between her and this piece of trash is that she cut him off completely the moment she learned he was married. My friend planned to tell his wife about the deception, but the guy threatened her. It was horrible for her.

  • “He played me too.” For Fucks sake there was only one person who was unaware. That was until you made your presence known. You’ll always be known as the Ho-Wrecker to all involved. Don’t kid yourself.

    To put it in perspective I asked adult children if they’d have any contact with her if their father died. Or if this Ho would be part of the family with grandmother status. The answer was NO. We tolerate her to see our father. Let’s face reality sweetly, you’re special to NO one. However, I adore the fact she’s invested in a shallow man who has little to offer her as she ages. Her stock trades low. On the other hand we’ve gained a better life investing in ourselves. Enjoy the downward spiral of nothingness.

    • My adult children won’t even tolerate their father let alone the OW. They haven’t had any contact with him since D-Day 11 months ago. Surely this is not the one big happy family that these two delusional cheaters had envisioned.

      I know he blames me, but I also hope he blames her. #mehchallenged

  • So, let’s see.

    There are those who think my anger at the cheating accomplice are wrong. That I should only be angry at my husband. After all, she did not make vows to me.

    I can think of many situations where good boundaries on my part do not involve agreements, laws, vows, or even having a relationship of some kind to another person.

    I’m thinking of the time I picked my daughter up at her friend’s house. Her little brother’s bed was broken because all the kids were jumping on it.
    Their defense? The little brother, owner of said bed, initiated it. I told my daughter that it didn’t matter. She knows it’s not OK to jump on the bed, for this very reason. She was responsible for her part in the bed breaking. She was the only child not allowed to continue on to the sleepover at the other girl’s house.

    In the morning, she asked me to take her to speak with the mom whose son’s bed was broken. She had a card apologizing and offered to contribute her savings to pay to have the bed repaired. My friend, Jumping Boy’s mom, declined but was very impressed. That’s how accountability gets taught in my world. I am accountable if my actions harm another person. I make amends today and I want to do the right thing from the get-go.

    Cheating is either right or wrong. For all involved.
    It is outrageous that I should not be angry at anyone who agreed with my to violate the boundaries of my family, just because it was an inside job.


    • Great teaching moment for your daughter. I love the analogy. Well done!

      If I recall, in LAC;GAL Cl doesn’t exonerate the OW/OM. Instead she makes the point that the spouse sucks more. Of course the APs who know they are dealing with someone married are guilty of complicity and other truly shitty behaviors.

      My ex had (has?) on a pedestal this woman who thinks it’s totally fine to screw a married man while cheating on her own husband. She sounds lovely.Theyre made for each other.

      • Chump Lady holds the cheating accomplices accountable. It’s not her. I read CN posts here on occasion that let the cheating accomplice off the hook because “they didn’t make vows to you.”

        There is some of that horseshit here today.

        • Yep, CL does make it clear they are not innocent.

          I am a ways out from it, but when this crap hits the Chump needs all the outlet for anger they can manage without action. If I had that against my Fuckwit and his whore in real time, maybe I would have gotten the anger out better and not had a relapse when fuckwith went after my son.

          I now realize the held anger was at myself for being so stupid and being such a doormat. But, had I known then what I have learned from CL and other sites, I wold have realized back then, it was not me it was him, and I could have released the proper anger then.

  • I feel like this is what’s happening to me right now and I do not know what to do about it. My husband got on at an asphalt company at the end of July last year and has been gone since. I have talked to him on messenger on duo and we text. His excuse is he has to take any job he can get even though I’ve told him he can go OTR again or get on at another local truck company. He has someone staying in his motel room with him. He told me they’re just buddies and that he helps her out and she cleans his room. I have told him none of this is at all ok. I have even tried to meet others because things have not been good for quite some time now. It is proving more and more difficult to meet someone else. I have tried working to make my own income and to try to get a savings going because I completely relied on him for everything. I’m starting these classes for this new job in the morning and I am just praying I can do this but him being in another state almost a day away from me knowing there’s someone there just has me messed up. I felt so nauseous last night when he made it known she’s there AGAIN. He says she’s one of his crew members gf. She was there a couple of weeks or so ago and I blocked him and wouldn’t talk to him for it so of course he sent me texts with crying faces and one about me blocking him on duo saying “I love you. You got rid of me. I love you dam it.” Another one saying “my best friend.” Another one telling me he thought nothing could end us. He even sent this texts when I told him in text earlier he better make her leave. Even the last time two weeks ago he told me he kicked her out, then he changed it to her family came and got her but now she’s back? What the Hell? These are the texts he sent me earlier about things.

    “What you talking about I help her out she cleans my room your still my wife honey my god calm down lisyen maybe you stay away from men and now you know how I feel I always pick up I love you I’m not fucking her she my buddy.” He’s always acting like I’m with someone else. Hell I wish I was because I’m tired of hurting over him and dreaming of him. It seems impossible to meet someone new though. I have tried to. Another text…. “Stop living in past matter fact it stops today and don’t bring up again k thanks if you can’t reframe. Yourself then gracefully bowle out of this cause you aren’t doing anything but making it worse on us cause you can’t get facts fucking straight matter fact if you can’t fucking respect me then fucking stop talking to me cause that bullshit I fucking took care of you like no other person has so fucking start giving me some fucking credit if not I don’t need ya I fucking deserve it i spent a lot of fucking money on you and time so straghting the fuck up and open your fucking eyes cause the shit you tell everybody isn’t fucking happping understand I might I a blue moon touch or get high he’ll haven’t had any money.” Another one…. I called her sick for staying in a room with a man that has a wife back in their home state hasn’t seen him in more than a year now so I guess he didn’t like it…. “Your fucking sick call me a name again see what happens I don’t give a fuck this is my family so stop the insultes or see me with someone else because plenty more women out there then to deal with this shit from you f.” Don’t know what the f is about at the end of that one. I’m just copying and pasting. Now this one. “Listen here im not on any websites that I no of or I don’t get on them if you see a profile it’s due to curiosity to see inside that’s it.” He has even done something like this back in 2018 when he stayed at his step grandmother’s house with his mom and step dad. She was 20 years younger than him. He’s now 41. He would say they’re just friends and then change it. 10 and a half years just gone and I’m just lost and don’t really know what to do. I have always been so codependent and I am lonely and want my marriage to work or to find someone new to move on with already

    • You sound like you want some other man to rescue you from this abuse. That’s what is-abuse. She’s not his work buddy or hotel roommate. She’s his fuckbuddy ! I’m sorry to be so harsh but it’s time to rescue yourself, go get a job and stand on your own two feet for a bit while you heal. As we say here in Chump Nation, don’t self-medicate with other people. (((Hugs)))

      • I’m trying to work. I started classes for this new job on the morning. I just have this big void and if he really is doing something I want him to suffer. These monsters shouldn’t be able to get away with what they do. He sent me this text earlier. “What im I doing im so tired of going through this with tired of fighting all the fucking time. My god fuck this shit I mean argue at work go motel argue there go to sleep argue before bed then it repeats again again again no wonder im going get a buzz to deal with this shit I don’t give a fuck about a bitches to get envoled with just to lose you over it then argue with you over it then lose you by someone else then the girl I’m with or whoever goes good for min then does the same shit leaves breaks heart again feel like a loser piece shit and I feel that way whymake because she you and everyone else did it just to make themselves feel less guilty for your there owe bullshit.. Sorry no thanks not getting envoled with anymore bitches they leave that’s all y’alls motive always something your attitude my bad habits or you do this or do that or to small it’s not enough I need more it’s not you fuck you bitches.”

    • I reread your post and your husband’s potty mouthed nonsensical texts. Your husband abandoned you a year ago, is shacked up with another woman and had an online profile trawling for women in the past. What more do you need to know ? Time for a divorce-check the finances.

      • Yea he acts like I’m the bad one and the reason he has PTSD. It’s just crazy how he changes what he says constantly

        • I can’t make any sense of these illiterate and deranged texts, or your posts.

          Have you left him? Has he left you?

          Are you a betrayed wife, or has he already left you and you’re trying to make sense of it all??!!

          If you’re still married to him, and this freekazoid is cozied up with a fuckbuddy, which he obviously is, what’s it all about? What’s the situation? I’m bewildered.

    • ” I am lonely and want my marriage to work or to find someone new to move on with already.”

      Yeah, that’s your problem. You don’t value yourself and you’re so scared of being alone that you ignore red flags and settle for dishonest people.

      Look. He’s cheating. You know he’s cheating. So you can ignore it, enjoy the money he sends you now, and hope he never runs off with one of his mistresses (a bad plan, IMO but you have the choice) or you can decide that this isn’t how you want to be treated and leave.

      Pick one.

    • Get Tracy’s audiobook and start Your de-programming.

      Listen ???? to it 10 consecutive times. Cover to cover.

      YOU!! ARE THE ONLY PERSON YOU KNOW that has never let YOU down. The only person that can EVER SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS.


  • Not a bad person,

    As soon as you found out he was married, you should have put his ass out at the curb like the trash he is. So yes, you are s bad person!

  • Thank you CL for an interesting point. My Wife cheated with a married man with 4 kids, we are still in the divorce process, first mediation today!

    I met recently with an old female college friend who knew my wife,( purely friendship, she is married and I have never had a relationship with a woman who has another man, well apart from my wife!). The friend knows the background I took my daughter along for a coffee and treat. We had a lovely chat and laughs. My friend then texts me to say she had enjoyed our chat and she hoped I didnt mind but she had texted my wife to say what a lovely girl my daughter was, she felt it was always nice to hear these things as a Mother.

    I kinda of thought other married women would shun women who had knowingly had affairs with married men on the basis it could be their husband, but perhaps I’m wrong. As a man if I learnt of a male friends affair I tended to distance them and certainly wouldn’t try and make them feel better. Do women think differently?

    • I would never make a friend of mine feel better about having an affair. If I cared about the friend, I would tell her to come clean and stop it. Interestingly, my ex husband lost a friend of his because he lied to his wife about his affair. He told his wife that he just didn’t want to be married anymore, but it turns out he had someone else and was planning to marry her. My husband was outraged at his friend’s behaviour and how he left his wife and son. Now, my husband left me and he sees my daughter sometimes and won’t voluntarily pay child support. Who knows? Everyone seems to have a different moral compass to me. I feel like I’m so old school caring about monogamy and not lying to people! I think so many people lie and lie and lie and hope no one finds out that it’s hard to know what people are actually up to. I did have a good friend who was sleeping around on her husband, but eventually she took accountability and said she was sorry and she left her husband and now she pays child support to him and is a good mother. Even though I don’t agree with what she did, I respect that she owned up to her mistake and is being decent now.

      • “I feel like I’m so old school caring about monogamy and not lying to people!”

        There is nothing ‘old school’ about having integrity, character, and a moral compass. ❤️

        • Yep, or as most of us were raised: “just because “everyone” is doing it, doesn’t make it right”

          At least that was how I was raised. And no everyone is not doing it. I know I am not and did not. I seriously doubt I am the only one.

          • Integrity, character and a moral compass, are not subject to fashion.

            They are eternal verities, despite what ephemeral twizzle twats, male and female, try to make us believe.

            It’s instructive and interesting to note that even the most shamelessly immoral, whether they’re either ‘celebrities’ or scum bag politicians, *all* of them eventually call into use some kind of ‘moral’ justification for the breaches of morality and simple human decency for what they do.

            I really think there is a universal compass which so many ignore, but which eventually comes back to bite amoral shit bags in the arse.

            It sometimes takes a long time, but eventually the truth will put.

      • I think you are letting your friend off lightly by using the word ‘mistake’ in place of the lies / deceit / treachery that occurred. Saying sorry and leaving her husband after the fact doesn’t cut it either!

    • Women aren’t a monolith and no one can speak for half the world’s population. I’d say your “friend” was being disloyal, frankly. Even if she’s paying your ex a compliment. She’s got ZERO reason to reach out. Sounds contrived.

    • The women I knew in my case definately shunned his whore. He really thought she would just step in and no one would notice, oh that’s not Susie, but close enough. They move out of the county, and he dropped out of the volunteer org that he was so involved in and that I had done most of his volunteer work in.

      She didn’t want to do any work, hell she didn’t even want to work at her job. What she thought was that he would do the work and she would sit like a queen at the events. He had never done a lot of the work, I did it and he accepted the acolades.

      Lol. What a couple of stupid asses.

  • No. What you’ve got here is a Switzerland ‘friend’.

    Dump her. Anything you say to this bitch will be relayed back to your STBXW. I’m sorry, but protect yourself and your daughter.

    ((hugs)) to you.

  • That she thinks she has a right to be heard by people who clearly don’t give a flying fuck is what gets me. I hope she gets mummified in those Egyptian sheets.

  • A Switzerland friend, *and* a flying monkey.

    Don’t tell this woman anything you wouldn’t want to get back to your STBX.

  • The last woman not only knew about but friended me on facebook. Her husband and mine were cousins. Apparently he wanted her to do this with my husband. I think this definition totally fits
    Any woman regardless of age, that will stoop to any level to gain attention and affection of any man regardless of his marital status or social or familial ramifications.

  • E gads
    I guess I have to throw my two dollars worth in here.

    Not a bad person,
    When a person is married that is clue number one to not get involved.
    If there is any upside at all today this is that the wife of this con artist now knows. As far as “love”,
    This isn’t love; this is the con artist saying and doing whatever he wants to get whatever he wants.

    Hopefully the wife kicks his ass to the curb and moves on.
    If you haven’t learned by now what’s going on, you can have him. He’s a liar, fraud, user, abuser just like X. (Former husband of 39 years.)

    Perhaps read about narcissist behavior and disordered people. I learned the hard way.
    But it was some thing I absolutely needed to know in my life that I didn’t know before.

  • I’m so sorry – I was in no-way “preaching to anyone about how whores are blameless”. Just the opposite, the OW’s are full of blame. You make a good point that is often not mentioned here though – that the cheating husbands and OW’s will very often make up lies about the wives – it’s another form of gas-lighting and blame-shifting. So many ex-husbands will say their wives were ‘crazy’ ‘asexual’ etc. The pain of infidelity, the deception of someone you exchanged vows with now has the added burden of incredible mis-characterizations and personal attacks. It’s important to get out and get away or if a Chump stays – be able to step up and over the crazy. Every situation, like every marriage, is different, but as Chump Lady says ‘infidelity is abuse’ pure and simple. I’m glad you’re in a better place and living the dream –

  • Another side to this Rubik cube of pain due to infidelity is not only the lost time – I lost much more than 28 years of my life. I think is was Zip who said they had been hit on many times but never acquiesced or consented to any propositions – same with me. Both before we were married – I had several lovely men I dated (oh sure there could be another fkwit hidden there but there were other men) and even during our marriage at ski resorts, etc. if I came down from the mountain first there were men in the ski lodge and certainly at some of the legal conferences I went to and I NEVER NEVER NEVER even so much as had a drink with anybody. I also passed up on a couple of promotions but it meant moving – so I gave them up. Yes, these were my decisions but based on our partnership, our marriage, our vows, his constant plans for the future including buying a retirement home when we were in our 40’s so we’d have it. Had I known he was whoring the entire 28 years I would have had a chance at a very different life. That’s the real crime here – he can bang farm animals for all I care, but he not only stole time from me with his deception he stole professional opportunities; holidays with people who really loved me (his family hated me); and maybe the chance to wake up every morning with someone who really loved you. How many young mothers are left with a dusty law degree sitting on the shelf while they have the two kids and are left with a tough time getting back in the job market and stretch marks. Tell all daughters to NEVER give up your earning power. When your married to a narc sex addict and feel unloved it’s because you are unloved. And yes, it was me who said anyone who ever even hints at defending the OW does so because they have a vein of OW guilt running in their own DNA. There is never, never an excuse for sleeping with a married man. “Oh…men have needs…..” “Oh….sex is different for men…” Yes…..that’s true, because their brain is in the tip of their magic penis. Never excuse the OW – it just adds to the pain Chumps feel – and the suicide rate among those that have been cheated on is too high – that’s because Chumps don’t have enough “I’ll take the rat-bastard down” mentality – we usually suck it up and move on – when we find our selves in a hole we stop digging – and if we went “I’ll get him crazy” that would only play in to the lies of the Cheater…”see, see how mean my wife is? see why I slept with pretty pussy?” It’s a mind-blowing game. Too nice, you lose. Too mean, you’re at fault. Just trying to tread water, keep your dignity and remain calm and get your finances in order, and hope to laugh again someday are key – we certainly don’t need anyone throwing a log on the fire by defending OW’s – they are all Whores.

  • “Yes, these were my decisions but based on our partnership, our marriage, our vows,”

    Exactly, a life time of decisions based on not only the vows and the marriage, but in defference to his wishes, because I trusted him.