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UBT: “I Would Like to Have a Final Conversation”

Dear Chump Lady,

I am finally filing for divorce (with a 6 month processing time COVID wooo). I want some insight into my ex-spouse’s requests.

I have been no contact for 11 months and blocked her 7 months ago, aside from getting the car signed over and getting the divorce application signed. In both situations, I ignored any questions or attempts to veer the conversation into talking about anything other than logistics.

She just wrote to me:

“Yes, I have received and reviewed it. I needed some time to do that as this has been a particularly busy week for me. No other reason for that delay. I’ll be dropping it back to friend’s at my earliest opportunity, today or tomorrow.

I would like to say that I think it would be best if you and I could meet briefly, in the next month, to have a final conversation and say some things on our minds. We had discussed doing this with the signing of separation papers, but this didn’t happen because of the change in procedure. Our last encounter was particularly bad, and I would like to give us each the chance to air some final words before moving on with our lives in this more final way.

I do not want to initiate a reconnection or friendship, I have no interest in that. But I do think this would be a helpful thing to do in finalizing things, so that we both have security in knowing the other is not going to reach out again to have this final closure conversation. Since neither of us wants that, and both of us have expressed disinterest in the other reaching out.

I understand if you don’t, but I hope otherwise. I have some things I would like to say before you only hear about me from other people.”

Some explanation: “…this didn’t happen because of the change in procedure” — We had met for a moment dropping off things following the separation agreement, but she was too angry about it to have a discussion.

“Our last encounter was particularly bad” — I thought it was fine, at the behest of my therapist I just repeated “No, I am not comfortable doing that, I won’t be doing that”. After her request of handing future mail directly to her, she had stormed out in anger.

Is there anything to be gained by meeting as she now directly requesting? I haven’t had a single conversation of the cheating or about marriage breakdown with her since the day she left. Would I ever regret not finally saying grievances? Is she still just looking for a way to fulfill her narrative? Is this something I should just ignore, or directly say “I don’t care enough to talk about things”? I guess with the divorce application, I’m panicking as the door closes.

Sincerely,

Red-breasted Songbird (RS)

Dear RS,

So let me get this straight — she’s holding your divorce application hostage until she gets a final monologue?

Yeah, that’s a hard no.

Ignore her. And if she doesn’t hand the document back, have your lawyer bird-dog her for it.

Or you could reply, per your therapist, “No. I am not comfortable doing that.” But in my opinion, that’s more bandwidth than she deserves. This sort of nonsense is what we pay lawyers for — to maintain the firewall of no contact. It’s worth the money, plus it deprives these narcissistic freaks of kibbles.

Why would you stick your head in the mindfuck blender? Why would you want to understand anything about a person you never wish to see again? To have WORSE memories? Haven’t you suffered enough?

Besides, to meet her would reward her obstructionism (I’m So Busy To Sign This Important Thing You Want, Unless You See Me, In Which Case My Calendar Magically Frees Up).

She can’t force you to stay married to her, she can just make things difficult. She was going to make things difficult anyway (it’s what fuckwits do, especially when the consequences hit), so don’t pretend a little chinwag will change that. Her entitlement is hardboiled.

Speaking of which, hardboiled entitlement is what the Universal Bullshit Translator has for breakfast.

“Yes, I have received and reviewed it. I needed some time to do that as this has been a particularly busy week for me. No other reason for that delay. I’ll be dropping it back to friend’s at my earliest opportunity, today or tomorrow.

This has been a particularly busy week for me folding sweaters. Yes, I have received and reviewed it. But then I had to unfold my sweaters. And consult the weather to see if it was a sweater sort of day. Which it might be. Or not. Depending on the dew point and if it’s a cotton or alpaca blend sweater. No other reason for the delay. I’ll be dropping it back to a friend’s at my earliest opportunity, but given the high volatility of sweater season, could be March 2024. Or never.

I would like to say that I think it would be best if you and I could meet briefly, in the next month, to have a final conversation and say some things on our minds.

I, I, I, me, “our minds.”

I would like to say that I think you suck. And I would like you listen to my grievances enumerating all the ways in which you suck and forced me to cheat on you. Then I shall revel in your discomfort.  And get a contact high from your misery. And feel very important. And then we can share a muffin.

#coffeedatefromhell

We had discussed doing this with the signing of separation papers, but this didn’t happen because of the change in procedure.

You broadsided me with a consequence and I didn’t have my monologue prepared.

Our last encounter was particularly bad, and I would like to give us each the chance to air some final words before moving on with our lives in this more final way.

You’ll get a chance to air some final words too! By which I mean, you can pay for the muffin. And I’ll eat the crunchy top and you can have the crumbs stuck to the paper.

And wouldn’t that be a wonderful opportunity? To hear me list your faults and what a spiritual journey fucking around has been for me — and YOU — I think you’ll be better for this, really! You LOVE eating waxed paper and crumbs.

I do not want to initiate a reconnection or friendship, I have no interest in that.

I just want centrality. Friendship requires mutuality and respect and I’m incapable of that. Reconnection requires actual connection… I can’t do that either. But I’d love some real estate in your head.

But I do think this would be a helpful thing to do in finalizing things, so that we both have security in knowing the other is not going to reach out again to have this final closure conversation.

You know what’s a final closure conversation? No conversation! The security in not reaching out again is… not reaching out again! So, you know I’m full of bullshit. I totally want to take a crowbar to your boundaries. I WILL NOT BE IGNORED!

Since neither of us wants that, and both of us have expressed disinterest in the other reaching out.

Are you ignoring me? Oh yeah, that’s what I wanted too.

I understand if you don’t, but I hope otherwise. I have some things I would like to say before you only hear about me from other people.”

I imagine that I will be the constant topic of conversation. And that thought sustains me, that others will carry my kibble torch. I have some things I would like to say to you before you hear them from others… I’m pregnant/marrying my affair partner/have been indicted/fell down a well/have a deadly communicable disease/unsightly rash/new boobs/ran over a puppy — but I’d rather you hear it from me.

What? You don’t find me enchanting? You don’t want me to explain how I crushed you and I don’t care and pilates changed my life? You want your OWN MUFFIN? Who ARE YOU?

I will NOT give you this paper! Thwarting is the only power I have left. My sweaters need folding.

***

No contact, RS. Stay strong. Unleash the lawyer. Good luck.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • If you DO decide to have that conversation all you will hear is HER list of grievances. Don’t give in. You don’t need that shit!

    • Her grievances and a totally gratuitous spiel sealing the fake, self-aggrandizing FW narrative in punishment for rejecting even the possibility of cake and wreckonciliation. Then the exchange will turn into a humble-brag vignette FW tells friends and therapists: “So I told him the truth. It was so hard but I had to be honest. I said that passion between us had died and he could no longer deny me the right to reclaim it elsewhere. Then he cried like he always does. I just had to get out of there…”

      “Closure” means twist the knife and crow about it.

  • This looks like a piping hot cup of image management served up with a healthy portion of shit sandwich to me.

    Not even worth an actual reply. Let her dangle. She deserves zero further energy. The business of the divorce IS the closure. End marriage, end of everything else, all wrapped with a sparkly bow, says me.

    May it be over incredibly soon, Friend.

    • Oh, and also – writer, you asked if you would ever regret skipping this conversation. Here’s my take on that.

      Probably, at least once, you’ll regret it, but the regret is unlikely to last.

      Feelings about divorce change across a spectrum of time. In the moment, they feel like they won’t ever change, but with time and perspective, they truly do. Some part of you will sometimes regret things for a while as you process the strong emotions, then the regret will fade as you heal. It’s natural and pretty universal.

      Cheaters and other abusers often use the “you’ll regret it” message as a tool to persuade people with consciences because it works so well. So, let me balance the scale. You may feel regret, but you were strong enough to live through the abuser, and any regrets you may experience are a comparative cakewalk.

      It’s a chaotic time. Before long, the stability of not having a tornado in your home will kick in and life will feel a lot more stable and in perspective. Push through this divorce for now. The next part will come once this moves into the past. 💚

      • This x100👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

        Remain no contact. You’ll never regret having your own back.

      • This, and what everybody has said. Remain no contact. There is nothing I regret more than the time I broke it. An unexpected death made me think it was a reason good enough to exceptionally break NC. It wasn’t. 100% image management. I still can’t believe it to this day. Oh wait – actually, I can!

      • As usual, Amiisfree (and CL of course) … totally *nailed* it.

        On a side note, can we go somewhere with “cheater” and “sweater”? Some kind of tongue twister?

        Without thinking thru at all, I know there’s potential there, um

        Cheater cheater, folded sweaters aren’t sweeter
        Don’t raise a sweat
        Over the muffin she et
        All alone cos you wouldn’t meet ‘er

        Yeah, I know that’s terrible …

  • Had the “closure” convo with Mac (we weren’t married, mind you, so thankfully no division of assets required), and I can tell you it wasn’t worth it. This is what lawyers are for!

  • WordCount indicates 213 words of typical fuckwit bullshit before finally divulging her true purpose: “. . . I have some things I would like to say before you only hear about me from other people.”

    Sorry to tell you, this isn’t stopping any time soon, especially if you have kids. She will push and push at centrality, and frame your avoidance as immaturity, bitterness, anger, etc.

    Not a thing will be gained by having the supposed final-clearing-of-the-air. You know who and what you’re dealing with — why subject yourself to any more of it than you absolutely have to?

    • UX is absolutely right. Don’t take the bait. She doesn’t want to hear what YOU have to say. She only wants to air her justifications for her bad behavior, which, of course, is ALL your fault. You do not need to be abused any further by this fuckwit.

      If you have blocked her on all social media, be prepared for letters or postcards, because she WILL have her say! If you choose to read anything, do not respond. NC is the best way to heal and move on. She, and her correspondence, belong in the trash.

    • “WordCount indicates 213 words of typical fuckwit bullshit before finally divulging her true purpose: “. . . I have some things I would like to say before you only hear about me from other people.”

      This, right here.

      I’ve written this here before. I have no problem talking with XH the substance abuser. He’s never going to apologize or show any remorse over his bad behavior and ways that he hurt me. But he’s a substance abuser and I let his words roll off my back as the lies, sad sausage tales and remorse of someone who ruined his life with alcohol. I have a long history of him that is decidedly mixed, but he’s not manipulative other than around alcohol. I didn’t stop loving him (as in wishing the best for him) and he didn’t betray me.
      But Jackass. If he came around with a $200 million lottery ticket I would meet him with a shotgun and tell him “Get out of my yard.”

      Early on, I wanted that discussion. I wanted to know what the hell happened. Given years of recovery, now I know that whatever he would say, it would be a lie. It would be manipulative. It would feed him kibbles. No thanks.

  • I admit, for a while, I wanted “closure”. I thought that after 42 years of marriage I at least deserved an answer to why this happened. I even sent my cheating ex an email expressing my feelings and asked that he respond. He never did.

    But then I realized that to get what I wanted would require introspection and honesty on his part. And that is hard work — something he was never good at. Narcs are never good at that sort of thing. They avoid pain and growth at all costs.

    After the divorce and the division of property, he wanted to “remain friends”. That was a hard no. My friends are good people; they don’t lie, cheat and use people.

    • Similar to me but I had told him he was not allowed anywhere near me ( I suspect the police told him the same after he was reported for stalking me and hiding in the house to scare me). No friendship no contact. It’s hard but the best way to heal. 36 years for me.

    • I completely understand your sentiment. But the truth is that no answer will ever give you closure. How do you explain this amount of hurt, inflicted by the one who should have loved you the most? You can’t. It will never make sense. Every time I looked for closure from my ex all I got was self pity, and some veiled implication it was my fault. It didn’t fix anything for me.

      I suspect closure is something we have to build for ourselves, it’s hard but I hope one day I will.

  • All the nopes. Also don’t need a final bite this morning of the bad seafood salad I ate last night to have closure on the last nine nonstop hours of gastric distress. That’s not how it works. You get over the bad seafood salad by staying away from the bad seafood salad.

    Your STBX is the worst seafood salad in the history of all the Red Lobsters in Oklahoma.

  • Nope your way the hell out of there. Recall why you hired the attorney and unleash the power of your pocket on her instead.

    She is the equivalent of gas station sushi in Nebraska, during a heat wave, when the power has gone out.

  • My STBX wanted to have a face-to-face because I “deserved to know everything.” The credit card statements, bank financials, phone records, and the OW’s social media told me all I needed to know. I wasn’t going to let him dictate the narrative, so I declined the offer and went No Contact. A few months later, we had to meet to sign some financials—it was a total emotional ambush. Very, very ugly. Once again, trying to dictate the process. Soon after, my counsel sent him a nicely worded “back off” letter stating that any future meetings would take place in his office. He also included a list of his going rates, noting I wasn’t going to be the one who was billed.
    There’s nothing to be said that brings closure to anything in a divorce. Don’t fall for this. This is what counsel is for.

    • F.Y.I. you probably do not have to meet face to face to sign papers. You should be able to set separate appointments to avoid interaction. That is what we did in my divorce. She came to my attorney’s office and signed and I came later in the day. She had to sign a quit claim for our house while at the title company. She went first and when I came later I heard all about it from the clerk. XW spun quite a story, but she did not know that the clerk was a friend and associate of my mortgage broker who had already filled her in on the gory details. (Unprofessional, but I think she was trying to fix us up!) Clerk said she had a hard time keeping a straight face.

  • The time for airing grievances and closure is long gone. In the two years leading up to Dday, I put up with all kinds of shit from x, who was, unbeknownst to me, fucking his racquetball partner and planning his new life. Without me, our children, and all those joint pesky financial obligations he no longer cared about. His parting words were textbook Cheaterspeak. Anything to twist that knife further in. POS Cheaters will never have anything of worth to say…. They will drag out the divorce though, dissipate assets, then marry their AP to round up their narrative. No Contact.

  • Joining the chorus here … That’s a NO. Believe me. It’s all about making her feel better. And it would just dredge up those fading rawer emotions. You will backslide and just feel worse for it.

  • RS, stay strong Tracy is 100% correct that you have nothing to gain my talking to your ex. What you need to say is “please cease and desist from further contact, or I will have to take legal measures.” Most people will stop dead in their tracks once they get that message.

  • To put it nicely, fuck her. She wants to control the narrative and her image management. Toward the end of my divorce, the Dickhead kept saying the marriage failed. I’m sure he’s telling people that we were two people who had nothing in common and things just didn’t work out. I tell people that he was a narcissistic cheating bastard who puts his needs and wants above everyone, even his son and daughter. I tell people that he abused my dog. That’s the truth.

    Seeking closure from the person who hurt you is like asking a scorpion to have a friendly chat. It’s not going to end well. In the course of finding closure, I was able to look more closely at certain incidents and finally understand what really happened. Closure came as I began to accept who he really is. Stay the course of NC – it’s closure at its finest.

  • There’s middle road available here, where she gets to say what she needs to say (that is, spew bile at you) but you don’t have to hear it: tell her that she is welcome to write it in a letter and send it to you, and that you will read and consider it.

    If I were in your shoes, I would add “this has been a difficult time for me, as you can imagine, so I need to choose an appropriate moment when I am able and receptive” – my XW gets off on admissions of frailty like that, which I keep generic so they aren’t actionable in court – and you can keep to yourself that the “appropriate moment” will be “never”.

    This avoids needless escalation (useful in general, and pretty important until the settlement is signed) and gives her the illusion of winning (you seem to be signing up to voluntarily hear her list of your failures as a human being) without materially changing the situation. Depending on your state of mind, you can either burn the letter or stick it in the folder with the divorce settlement.

    Just remember: you may have some fantasy of a conversation in which she acknowledges a proportionate amount of fault, but that is never going to happen. A freewheeling in-person conversation is just going to expose you to hate and blame, probably at a high volume that generates large quantities of potentially COVID-containing droplets.

    • Hmmm. IG has an interesting idea. As someone who benefitted from documenting all the stupid admissions my ex made in writing, I like the idea that she might incriminate herself or otherwise add some information that might be of interest to the mediator/judge.

      Also, with narcs, giving them the illusion of winning might be a good strategy as you enter negotiations. It might make her more amenable to concessions.

      I agree that it *is* risky to meet right now, so there’s that. #pandemicperk

    • There is no worse torture for a narcissistic type than to send a letter and get….nothing in return. No reponse. No text. No letter. No call. No photos. No words.

      Nothing.

    • Obvs total NC is the way to for most situations…but let me build on IG’s idea here and suggest the option of:

      – invite her to record a voice memo of “what she wants to say” & send it to you via email for review at a later time of your choosing

      It deprives her of the Kibble Fix of seeing your anger when she “explains” that your Poor Dishwasher Loading Strategies left her no choice but to be a whore…

      …while harshly exposing & taking advantage of her need for said Kibble Fix and forcing her to (probably) back down, which is the feeling Narcs hate more than anything.

      And I would call that tendency out directly: “I doubt you have the courage to record what you want to say to me, but who knows? Maybe you grew a spine: get out your phone and surprise me!”

      That will prevent her from obtaining the Passive Kibbles Snack of “haha, he’s SO hurt at losing ME that he DIDN’T EVEN RESPOND to my generous offer to have one final meeting…”

      And replace it with “I wanted to tell him in person how it was ALL his fault but his suggestion of a voice memo was, uhhhh, NOT FAIR… Not fair because, ummmm, well because I wanted to see his reaction…wait no, I can’t admit that—anyway, what kind of ABUSIVE MONSTER suggests a voice memo? I’m lucky I’m still ALIVE facing this level of anger!”

      That Loop of Shame is gonna burn inside her head for a LOT longer than total NC (which, again, is great! totally love NC for those with the option!)

      Stay mighty, everyone!

      • Mid-Atlantic,

        Could you expand on Loop of Shame? I have not heard that term. It sounds intriguing.

        • sure!

          So a “loop of shame” is a phrase I believe i first heard used by SAM VAKNIN, an Israeli psychologist with extremely detailed understanding of Narcissism/BPD/ASPD disorders (VAKNIN is himself a diagnosed Narcissist, fwiw)

          VAKNIN describes the interior mental landscape of the Narcissist as one of extreme chaos, disorder and anguish

          from an early age, their minds experience an emotional storm so severe that the subject deploys, adopts and then is eventually consumed by Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a way of “coping” with the tumult

          and a “Loop of Shame” was colloquial shorthand for the intrusive, repetitive shame-based thoughts that rage inside the heads of most Narcs pretty much anytime they are not receiving direct “supply”

          When Normal People do something dumb or shameful, they feel upset for a bit, perhaps apologize, hopefully change behavior and, after a while, move on to the point where they are not thinking about it constantly, all the time, never stop, never stop

          However, Narcs get stuck on remembering/reliving experiences they felt caused them shame, replaying them thousands and thousands of times without ever getting to the psychologically healthy next step of “okay, that happened…so what behavior should I change to avoid this feeling in the future?”…instead, they make themselves feel awful which makes them more desperate for their next hit of supply.

          Narc logic; “I’m a piece of shit, I’m a piece of shit, I’m a piece of shit…oh, but when I’m cheating the voices (introjects) stop because this person is risking their marriage to fuck me in the ass…and nobody would do that for a piece of shit! Right? RIGHT!?!?!”

          Twisted and disordered to be sure, but that is their thinking.

          So when involved in a long-term battle with a Narc (in my case, shared custody of young children & massive financial dishonesty = NC not possible until 2034) you want to load them up with as many “Loops of Shame” as you can, because you know their busy Narc brain will keep those insults burning like hot embers for years, whereas you or I would be over it in a few weeks, tops.

          I have found this is best done with “triangulation,” because a Narc’s years-long hardening towards and dismissiveness of the (former) spouse makes my actual opinions worth less than nothing (if i believe it, her mind tells her it must be bad/wrong because of my “jealousy” or that we “grew apart”)

          So I simply swap in the mockery and derision of people who she thought were friends, which greatly increases the power & extends the duration of that individual “Loop of Shame”..at least in theory.

          It reminds me of that old saying “You can run, but you’re just gonna die tired.”

          On an emotional level, they chose “run”…so for those of us without an NC option, we must serve up the “die tired.”

          Hope that helps!

          • Thank you for that comprehensive overview.

            Unfortunately upon some introspection I realized I too have Loops Of Shame. But that’s another discussion for another day.

            I am wondering, how is it beneficial to reenforce these Loops of Shame? Doesn’t it just drive them to create more distraction via destruction?

            • Great question!

              I’ll freely admit that I am operating on nothing but gut feeling & recent results

              in regularly dousing my Narc in buckets of Triangulated Shame

              In our particular case, she expressed on D-Day (which was me confronting her with evidence) a very strong desire to “just get past all of this” a predictable phrase that seemed to encompass her umbrella goals:

              1) getting me to admit it was really “mostly my fault”

              2) making sure our peer group was only told that “we grew apart”

              3) getting to “have her own life”

              4) never being exposed to any kind of professional legal or accounting scrutiny during the division of assets

              HOWever

              1) was out, since i had already read dozens of posts by CHUMP LADY
              4) was out, since i had already retained both divorce counsel and a forensic accountant

              since she secretly retained a lawyer on D-Day +1 but continued to lie about it

              i assessed that she was not planning on “playing nice” in any way

              but rather using her familiar toolset of Deception, Manipulation and Dishonesty to stall for time

              so i was able to zero in on (and to some extent discuss w/her) her deep need to not be publicly exposed and humiliated

              & then achieve that exposure and humiliation on a level that surprised even her: “People won’t even look at me”

              from there, she’s just seemed exhausted & confused even as the pressure ratchets up

              and the goal of Loops of Shame is to just making it harder for her to think clearly & just generally exist

              legally, she’s made dismantling her years of financial dishonesty as difficult as possible

              so emotionally, i am delivering the maximum Reciprocal Consequence

              …again, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone who has an NC option

              in some ways, each Narc is like a snowflake: cold, unique…but not heat resistant (in a psychological sense)

              stay mighty, people!

              • Do you mean she’s so exhausted from the increase in LOS that she doesn’t have the energy to do something destructive?

              • (i’m replying to myself because i think we’ve maxed out WordPress’ nesting feature)

                i think in our case it’s combination of exhaustion

                and the disincentivizing behavioral effects caused by knowing peers are laughing at her

                specifically that peer women who are younger, prettier and richer that she is

                who now gigglingly describe about her as a “dildo warmer”

                some days i feel like can almost see it in her eyes, already-damaged neurons

                drowning in cortisol waves fueled by shame & stress

                she’s repeatedly expressed “i just want this to be over”

                as if that’s a thing

  • Must be pretty juicy for her to not want you to hear it from someone else. Could that mean others are getting wise to her? Are the flying monkeys turning on her and she’s trying to do damage control? Bwahahahahahaha, that’s precious.

    I’d give her a hard no, and ask her to only communicate with my attorney. I hope you find peace soon.

  • I agree, ignore her, you won’t get closure from a fuckwit, they are incapable of delivering such a thing.

  • May I suggest the zen concept of “presence of absence”. This *is* your final conversation with her. It will take an empty form, defined by no interaction at all. What is unsaid is as important as what is. Maybe more so. And no, you won’t regret it. Embrace your newfound inner peace as you let your lawyer do the rest. Zen helps you find your center, and the ex has no existence in that place of calm and content. Big hugs & hang in there!

  • I’m joining the “hard-no chorus.” You won’t get closure; all you’ll get is more mind-fuck with a big helping of shit sandwich.

    You may, at some point, regret not having had that conversation but you’ll get over that regret a whole lot faster than the mind-fuck she’ll dump on you. She may want to “forgive you” (like yesterday’s letter) or she may just flat out give you a list of grievances, but either way you won’t get closure. She’d have to be insightful, willing to engage in introspection and self-reflection and cheaters just don’t do that.

    Let your lawyer do you talking.

    • “You may, at some point, regret not having had that conversation but you’ll get over that regret a whole lot faster than the mind-fuck she’ll dump on you.”

      I was going to say this exact thing.

  • I hadn’t realized that this is a common thing–the cheater wanting a final, face-to-face meeting.

    RS, I declined the offer, but within weeks of my hard no, our dog was killed by a coyote, and I ended up in a car with my then-STBX on the way to the vet’s office, dead dog in the back. (I’m sure this a metaphor for our marriage.)

    Anyway, trapped in the car, I got the in-person meeting I didn’t want. He tried to justify his multiyear affair. Said he only lied about one thing. He also seemed to relish explaining to me how they fell in love, her flirting with him, how he was naive. Oh and, of course, there was some heavy-duty blameshifting.

    All in all, it was abusive and painful.

    No good came of it. My guess is you’ll regret the conversation. Don’t take the bait.

    Good luck!

  • My covert narcissist continues (5 year later) to want any communication possible – kibbles. Giving it is like intermittent reinforcement- anything he can get propels him to try for more. He “ still loves me” and all that (but has a girlfriend and keeps in touch with long term affair partners ) or anywhere else he can get narcissist feed. This far out I can see how I should not have entertained a request like that for one second. It’s also about image management. I can hear him telling how we worked things out and had conversation -yep- a waste of your time.

  • Divorce comes at a high price. Having to negotiate walking away from something you once prized above all is costly, both emotionally and financially. But what it buys is even more precious — your freedom, sanity, and eventual peace of mind. As a bonus, never having to engage with your ex ever again about your relationship is included in that price. It would be nonsensical to reopen negotiations on a deal that you already paid dearly to close.

    • This is what I needed to read today. My marriage was something I prized above all else. I’m waiting for my freedom, sanity and peace of mind… yesterday he emailed me a missive of grievances re the cost of our sons’ therapy and their clothing; this from a man who will spend $500-1000 for an hour or two with a hooker. I have no need to engage with him. My lawyer can handle it. He can stew like Mr Scrooge.

  • What a beyotch. She’s probably trying to get ahead of you finding out more horrible things about her, and will try to get you to keep these secrets with” this last meeting where you agree to never speak of such things again”. That way if you do bring this up, in her eyes you are the one at fault. No contact! I love Involuntary Georgian’s idea of a letter……maybe she’ll incriminate herself.

  • Maybe she is getting married. She thinks she’s being kind by telling you in person. There’s nothing kind about any of this. Ignoring bad people keeps you from developing ulcers. You have a lawyer, use your lawyer.
    My brother was cheated on and abandoned. I think she would show up periodically, maybe once a year, and he had absolutely no leftover love for her. It pissed him off on behalf of kids but he sure as hell had moved on.

    CL, I never quite got hashtags until yours. Coffeedatefromhell. A hoot!

    • “I have some things I would like to say before you only hear about me from other people.”

      I think this line was bait and she is trying to hook him into having the “final conversation”. This woman could be getting married, could be pregnant but kindness or giving him a head’s up is not her motive. She needs to gut punch him just one more time.

  • Wait, she’s saying let’s have a final closure conversation so we have both said we don’t want to have a final closure conversation and then we won’t have to worry about having one and we’ve both expressed disinterest in reaching out, so that’s why I’m reaching out. I’m already exhausted.

  • What I love so much is that she wants that last meeting as clearly things aren’t being a nice neat tidy little place that she can feel happy with ergo ‘Our last encounter was particularly bad’. Hasn’t quite got you to buy into the narrative, wants one more chance to project on to you the many ways it was your fault, wants to fish for what you’ve said to others, wants to drop some other bombshell on you about her new life.

    Not only will it somehow be deeply upsetting and make you realise why No Contact is so fantastic denying her the ability to scratch this itch she has is something to glory in. I would suspect if you don’t answer or say no thank-you she may just up the ante or, of course, if she knows she’s not winning talk to everyone about how unreasonable you were.

    Exactly like you I have only discussed child related things with ex and then pretty rarely but he’s managed a couple of times to get a couple of underhand blows in. Of course this time they just made me laugh. I think the first time he tried it I said, oh wow so you still feel the need to try those tactics, even at this stage and just laughed at him. Second time just totally ignored it and that made me feel mighty fine.

  • Hard no.

    I lost it once 4 months after DDay when wasband was being a jerk about preschool enrollment paperwork and i was still reeling. I broke NC to go get the paperwork and was subjected to a ” i hope one day you can own your part in the demise of our marriage bc happy marriages dont end in divorce”

    I was beyond furious but was able to come back w “you cant just shave your head and start practicing yoga and pretend to be a buddhist monk – they are capable of introspection….clearly you are not”

    It wasnt a complete dumpster fire…but never again.

    And oh CL……rofl on the pilates line. How does someone who refused to stretch after running and would bever even try it suffenly become a yogi?

    My god the image mgmt and self deception….but this is why i read…..his BS is so right out of the playbook…it keeps me grounded about the narrative

    • “I hope one day you can own your part in the demise of our marriage bc happy marriages don’t end in divorce”

      Yep. Check! Got the same, almost word for word.

      And, in my early-chump days (a month from D-Day), I was still trying to argue and prove my point, so stupid me sent him an article refuting affairs-only-happy-in-unhappy-marriages the theory. Of course, his reply hurt me. No good came of it.

      I’m NC now. Blissfully so.

  • There is no closure to be gained through this conversation. Even if she were to show up and apologize, you would be infuriated and sad that she ruined your marriage and now would feel guilty that she was sorry. Trust me. You will.

    I would not response. Not responding is step one to freedom.

    If she is pregnant/getting married/dying…well, none of those things matter anymore. Sadly, someone else will tell you about them, and they will hurt, but it is someone else’s life. My ex had a baby and really, my main worry was for my kids, who now have a unknown blood relative. Turns out they don’t want to know about him or meet him. They are ok.

    I hope she signs and you never hear from her again and she becomes somebody that you used to know.

  • If her letter was to be found in a drugstore it would be next to the ipecac syrup. It would carry a warning legend saying”WARNING THIS SHIT WILL MAKE YOU PUKE YOUR BRAINS OUT!” I’m in awe of the of the unabashed balls of some of these relationship terrorists . She (like my ex) wants the pleasure of knowing she made you squirm possibly cry again. Don’t give her the satisfaction. The attitude from her on needs to be like the one CL men years ago. When CLs sister-in-law came in contact with the other woman she artfully said ” surely you must know what I think of you” Fucking Priceless! And that good sir is the simplest way passed this nasty douche nozzle. I must also say to Chump Lady… I’m a bit surprised you subjected the UBT to this shit so close to the holidays! Mow you owe the UBT some more of those cookies it enjoys…Kockenblocken? or something like that

  • For a VERY long time, I thought I needed a conversation with my ex. Notice “I, thought”. I cannot emphasize I enough. As time passes so does that “need”. And for you, it doesn’t sound like you’d regret. Closing the door as you say, is very scary and permanent sounding. But it’s the only way. And I know now was the beat for me too. He left. I packed him up. He returned while I was at work to take everything (even things he shouldn’t have) I was heartbroken but good. Knew it had to happen. The best part was there wasn’t a messy divorce.
    Currently in a pickle again but that’s another story.
    Tracy would tell me I didn’t fix my picker. I did but not in all the ways apparently
    Keep marching on you’ve gotten this far. I imagine if you ever felt the need later- she’s available for the talk

  • All I see is her wanting to convince you she’s not a piece of shit by bullshitting about how it was your fault and maybe even a side of this isn’t who she is.

    My ex would have the biggest orgasm of his life if I met with him and had a “closure conversation” because nothing matters more to him then image management and he could tell everyone we worked out our differences and all is well.

    Fuck him and fuck her….she’ll have to square everything with herself just like my ex.

    • Likewise. The fact that I have clearly refused friendship with my ex has troubled him for years…he brings it up as often as he can when we need to talk about our kid, to which I give the canned response “lets keep this [daughter] focused…is there anything else to discuss?” And I think it’s largely that my refusal to be in his life is just bad optics for him.

  • UX is absolutely right. Don’t take the bait. She doesn’t want to hear what YOU have to say. She only wants to air her justifications for her bad behavior, which, of course, is ALL your fault. You do not need to be abused any further by this fuckwit.

    If you have blocked her on all social media, be prepared for letters or postcards, because she WILL have her say! If you choose to read anything, do not respond. NC is the best way to heal and move on. She, and her correspondence, belong in the trash.

  • This is just image management, a chance to berate you for what you did wrong in the relationship, or a way to get you to soften whatever consequences there are in the divorce agreement. Don’t bother. Having a conversation with someone with a known track record of lying and blameshifting is not going to provide you with anything satisfying.

    Expect that she’ll keep trying. My ex put me through a hellish divorce for almost a year. When we were finally sitting in a conference room, signing the very last of the paperwork, my ex leaned in towards me and asked, “Could I talk to you after this, for like five minutes?” I told him no, that if he had anything to say it could be sent to my lawyer. My response, and the shocked look my ex got when I refused was all the closure I needed.

    • Same for me, almost exactly! That was 3 years ago and I’m still basking in the satisfaction, All because of that little 2 letter word, “NO.”

      RS, It sounds like the last conversation was fine for you, but she walked away angry. She has now had time to prepare her scathing remarks and had couched her request in the Narc speak of “both of us.” Don’t fall for it.

  • My stbx is exactly the same way.

    I call it, “The Kumbaya/Image Control” tactic.

    The other day my stbx was over to pick our daughter up. As she was gathering her stuff-my stbx was talking to one of my neighbors (he doesn’t really know them because I was the one that moved out of our old house. The neighbor and I were chatting a few days later and he said, “You’re ex came up to me and told me he’s ‘not a bad guy.’”

    My neighbor told him that he and I don’t ever talk about him.

    Must be exhausting trying to keep your image squeaky clean….

  • RS,

    Imagine that she already stabbed in the heart, and then this closure conversation is going to be her twisting it. That is how it was explained to me when my XW wanted a closure conversation. I wish I would have been stronger and not met her.

    My closure conversation was awful and a total mindfuck. She admitted even more affairs that I didn’t know about, and she had an icy cold exterior. The person I thought I knew was completely gone, and this cruel narcissist was finally sitting across from me with her mask off. It was absolutely horrible, and to this day I wish I would have been strong enough to just walk away before that.

    She already showed you her true self once. She has no problem consciously doing things that hurt you. As emotional as this time is, everyone on this page is right. In the future, you will be proud of all the times you went NC instead of having these conversations.

    Good luck through this incredibly hard time.

  • You had the last word by filing for divorce and going no contact, and it probably eats her alive. Don’t show up to your own execution. She’s had plenty of time to sharpen the blade on her mind-fuck guillotine.

  • ” I have some things I would like to say to you before you hear them from others…” means that she wants to see your face when she reveals them. She wants to see your emotion for herself (and revel in it) rather than live vicariously through another’s telling. She’s sick. Do NOT reach out to her. I love that line in Star Wars, “These are not the droids you’re looking for. Move along.”

    • The line from Star Wars that told me I was no longer susceptible to his manipulation was this one: “Your Jedi mind tricks don’t work on me.”

  • SongBird, nothing like a cheating fuckwit wanting to have the last word. Don’t give that to her.

    On the other hand, I wanted to tie my exH to a chair and gag him to listen to what I had to say.
    But I learned here at Chump Nation what a waste of time and energy that would be… and what a HUGE pile of kibbles I would be doling out.

    When I did not say hello to fuckwit at our son’s wedding I realized I gave “it” a kibble. But I felt like puking so I exchanged puking (which would have been a huge kibble) for giving out a smaller kibble of ignoring him.

    Good luck and NC

    • Thank you ClearWaters! My son wants to have his wedding in the Spring at my house in the back yard. The dick-ex and his skank wife will undoubtedly be invited (most naturally), and I was imagining how to avoid seeing them. When you said that when you didn’t say ‘hello’ to the fuckwit at your son’s wedding, you actually gave him a kibble. I guess I better just act like he is some stranger that I really don’t care if I ever see again, just say ‘hello’, and pass him off to someone else. That’s the best strategy. If anybody else has pointers to give me on how best to handle the eventual meeting, I’m all ears. Thanks!

      • Amazon,

        Does your ex really need to be there with his wife? Ugh.

        I dread this very thing. I like the idea of saying, “Hello” while continuing to walk past–the same type of greeting you might give to a passing acquaintance. Hold your head high!

        I also like the line someone posted above: “You must know what I think of you.” I would channel Katherine Hepburn when delivering that. Use the same tone that you might use when saying, “Nice to meet you.” Smile and keep walking.

        It’s the OW who should be squirming with shame, not you.

        Anyway, I’m speaking out of my ass because I haven’t encountered this dreaded situation. I’m anxious to hear how others have handled it.

      • You can go one of two ways, or a mixture. One is just use your customer service voice but with no smile or any emotion at all if you can – like a total stranger and just not acknowledge her at all. Second is what I usually do – when you have to look at him, look at the middle of his forehead or the top of his head and don’t make any eye contact. I do this in conjunction with no smile and like I don’t know him. Drives him nuts that I won’t even look at him. The good thing about it is, no one else can tell that’s what you are doing. And of course, I completely ignore her and act like she isn’t even there. She/They can’t stand that either but if they do something then everyone will see that it is them acting out or causing a a scene, not me.

    • Been there, done that.
      First child’s wedding was five years after divorce. I had remarried, she was still seeing the rat faced AP. XW and daughter-in-law planned it all out to be in XW’s backyard. I signed some modest checks, but did not have to interact before rehearsal dinner. At the wedding I pretty much ignored her and rat face. Stood in some photos but mostly just enjoyed myself with my new wife on my arm.
      Second wedding was almost ten years later. This was a huge blow out, 150 guests, full dinner, dancing and way to much alcohol. XW was conspicuously without a date and made a fool of herself dancing with the much younger guys. Split the rehearsal dinner costs and kept her on ignore as much as practical.
      Third wedding was just a few weeks ago. Covid wedding with only eleven people total. In couple’s backyard. It went fine with limited chit chat, none initiated by me. There was that moment during photos where see looked at me with an expression of regret that we could not share the moment together. It really was sad, but not my doing.
      My advice is keep your distance, avoid chit chat and being alone with FW. I am much happier being NC/Gray Rock.

  • A dog bites you. A few weeks later, same dog wants to bark at you and wants you to sit there and listen.

    It might take a short breather between several minutes of barking, but it has no real interest in hearing anything you have to say in that time. It wants only to bark at you some more.

    Walk away! Ignore that dog!

  • RS, As stated, this too shall pass. If you do make contact, you WILL regret that. You’ve done everything you could to save your marriage. It’s over. Move on. Learn to love yourself and recognize the red flags that were there all along. Ensure that you won’t bypass them again. There may be new red flags in a new relationship that you haven’t seen before, but if you take the time to get to know yourself and know your boundaries, the greater chance you’ll have of a happy life. Happiness is yours and nobody is in charge of your happiness but you. Nor are you in charge of making anybody else happy. Your almost-ex-wife apparently believes you still are valuable to her. She wants her kibbles, a soap-box so she can hurt you some more. Don’t give it to her. At the time of my discard I wanted any chance whatsoever for the dick-ex to talk to me. He knew that by ignoring me, he was hurting me more. Those were his kibbles. Your almost-ex-wife believes that when you ignore her, that you’re not hurting. That’s why she wants to contact you again. I now do not regret ever hearing from the dick-ex, and you won’t regret it either. With time you will be exceptionally glad that you maintained No Contact.

  • Your closure is divorcing her and never looking back. Any other closure is a myth. I didn’t give xhole his “closure” only because I’d made the mistake of having that last conversation 2 other times in previous relationships with ex boyfriends who had cheated. Should have learned my lesson the first time, but they say the third time is the charm!

  • This so read like, “I woke up in the middle of the night as you do with all the zingers that I had wanted last time we talked and I’m going to bring the conversation around to each and every one of your concerns or accusations RS and then tell you the comebacks that I thought of”. Because last word. That paragraph about meeting to avoid meeting is some of the most laughable word salad I have read in a long time. Do not give her the satisfaction. She’ll just use it to mindfuck you and like people to further her narrative. She obviously feels you for one up on her last time or she wouldn’t feel the need did it, or she is low on kibbles in her current life. Either way, don’t serve yourself up as a victim on a platter. Starve the Narc.

    • And, on the far end of the nefarious scale, what if her intent is to rile him up and get something secretly recorded that she can try and use against him in court? Without a finalized divorce, anything is on the table…and anyone who is willing to betray their spouse would be willing to try and bate them into a fight where, inevitably, harsh words will be spoken that then might be used against them.

      My ex tried some version of this–calling me and making a very vocal point of staying extremely calm, commenting about how calm he was being, while accusing me of very bad things…clearly just waiting for me to explode so he could have his aha moment. I was so glad that I ended the call quickly…because I might have exploded! He was saying terrible things. But I also knew that he was trying to paint me as this irrational hot-headed person so that he could gain an advantage.

      So yea, don’t take ht bait. All these people know is manipulation. It’s their “love language.”

  • When my cheater made this request/demand, it was only for the opportunity to further manipulate and lie to me. No thank you. I didn’t do it and years later I am SO glad I did not. No regrets. Don’t do it.

  • “Let’s have a conversation about not ever having a conversation again”

    What is she on about lol?

    You mentioned that she was the one who left, so it’s hard to understand what more does she want. Probably to remind you how it’s also your fault your marriage ended so she can fulfil her narrative of “we grew apart” or whatever else she thinks happened, and it has nothing to do with her cheating. Stay away. I don’t see a single situation in which you could regret this.

    At least she’s not trying to be your friend. My ex tries the friend thing, and he says he doesn’t see a reason why exes can’t stay friends, and I’m baffled. Yes, in some situations where a relationship has run its course or when someone leaves you with your dignity intact, you can maybe eventually be friends. But after cheating? I wouldn’t even know where to begin to build a friendship with someone who hurt me that way.

    • I love the irony of that. “I want to have a conversation to make sure we never have another conversation.” It doesn’t even make any sense.

  • You might regret not having the conversation. But you definitely will regret having it. In a game of risk, I’d go for the sure bet. It’s all about them, not about you. You won’t get to air your grievances at all. Don’t even reply.

  • CL is spot an a always. I’m betting she’s marrying the AP and wants to deliver the news herself, hoping he’ll be crushed, so she can see it on his face and get off on it. I base this on the comment alluding to how he might hear something about her from others and she wants to preempt that.

    Nopety nope to that one. Ignore. Agreeing won’t get her to sign the papers anyway, if she wants to be free to be unhappily wedded to her manwhore.

  • I told the traitor, who chose not to communicate honestly with me, in real time, with a therapist who was on retainer the entire 27 years we were together, and as such had the opportunity to speak up 24/7 for 27 years in a mediated therapeutic setting, yet for some mysterious reason didn’t, which I do not care to understand:

    “You had your chance. The complaint window is closed.”

    I have no interest in discussing anything with him now other than BUSINESS CHILD DIVORCE MONEY.

    My goal is to never see his face, hear his voice, or speak to him ever again as long as I live.

    There is a spiritual belief that we are assigned a finite number of breaths before we are born and when we use them up, we die. On the off chance that this is true, I am reserving my breaths for worthwhile people.

    Silence and absence are the loudest and clearest responses.

    • PS…

      Our UBT letter today reminds me that relationships with cheaters aren’t about thinking too deep or talking too deep…AKA intimacy.

      My headaches from trying to communicate with him have disappeared and are now the domain of the four therapists and four lawyers his choices brought into our lives. Now I get to just smile and shrug in Zoom sessions with my best “what did I tell you?” look.

  • Closure is one of those things that people want, or think they want, but seldom get.. The unsatisfying reason most fuckwits do what they do is because they can.

    I was an English major as an undergrad, and closure works, sometimes, in literature, drama, movies etc. The Psych unit may search for closure in some mental health cases, Cops may want additional information from serial killers to offer closure to some victims families. But, overall, closure rarely seems to work in real life, IMHO. If you are a chump, you do not think like a cheater. If you are committed to a certain religion, you may not understand others. If you are very liberal, you don’t understand very conservative, and visa versa. If you have Western influenced Judeo-Christian values, you may not see things from Eastern philosophies perspective.

    I often dine alone, usually with a book, but sometimes I cannot help but overhear other conversations. Yesterday I sat near a couple who seemed determined to ask for extra servings of items that were accessories on the menu, or were not on the menu, and extra services from the waitress, one item at a time. Back in my waitressing days, those customers rarely leave a tip, or it is so small, you hardly notice. They look for something to complain to the manager about. The DEMAND attention. Everyone around them cannot help but notice. They never say thank you. If other customers have vivid imaginations, like mine, they long for some kind of closure to deal justice to these people, but you rarely see it. They are oblivious, selfish, entitled and their conversation usually involves complaints about other people who are not present. There is no closure which will ever occur to these folks, they don’t think they are doing anything wrong.

    The best you can hope for is not to have to sit next to them again. Same way with Ex’s, avoid them if possible. Don’t seek closure when you already know how the story will end. You had to learn, the hard way, about the (lack of) character in your ex. Now that you know, don’t expose yourself to another opportunity for pain.

    • I waitressed in my youth, during summer break. Truth be told, I was not a good waitress but fortunately I had some really nice, understanding customers. They may have not had the most professional service but we treated them well. Then there were the obnoxious, mean ones, the ones that thought anyone in service had to take their crap. These customers didn’t know what hit them…I worked with 3 other friends, keep in mind we were young and could be quite obnoxious ourselves. We would harass these people, make fun of them (in a way they couldn’t really complain about but they knew), screw up their order, ignore their requests, messed with their food (nothing bad but maybe some whip cream instead of mayo in their burgers),etc. We had so many laughs. I’m not sure what would have happened if we didn’t have each other for support. My point is that you are spot on…these people are miserable and look for something to complain about so they can make everyone else miserable. FYI-my co-worker friends and I live in different parts of the country but we still keep in touch.

      • You are totally correct. Food service workers have small insidious ways to punish rude customers, but it never seems like enough. You want them to see how obnoxious they are, and you would like for everyone in the restaurant to stand up and applaud when they slink out, dragging their humiliation with them, However, they don’t ever see the error of their ways.

        There is something deep in the DNA of rude, selfish people that prevents them from making true human contact and experiencing empathy. Restaurant work is hard, long hours, uncertain compensation, little respect. It is a good training ground for learning some work skills, gaining some work experience, and learning how to deal with all types of people. It was my first job outside of the home environment, and both of my sons, too. I don’t regret the experience, it established a baseline for me for dealing with “customers” in every job I did later in life. My mother once told me “Ignorance can be cured, but stupidity is fatal.” You can teach someone who wants to learn. You cannot teach someone who revels in their own stupidity. Looking for closure with them is pointless.

  • Don’t try to communicate with a Mind Fuck Blender! I sent my ex a note about the kids Insurance (he is behind on) and daughters counselor visits. I get typical responses of Fuckery.
    ” I don’t know how we got to this point”. and ” The house is shit (because of me) and needs contractors to fix it.” 4 years later and he still doesn’t understand fucking hoes in a marriage in unacceptable. Then threating me and kids out of marital home to keep it. Glad he insisted on keeping the shitty house and bought me out of it!
    There is no closure conversation with these people, they are truly fucked up! No Contact and head to Meh.
    I am a little closer, didn’t even notice it was our anniversary till about lunch time when I was adding dates to work calendar! I thought about it a minute and moved on with my day.

  • Cheaters are opportunists and therefore you need to keep the door locked and bolted. You hear a knock, open the door a tiny crack and centrality, entitlement, devaluation and mindfuck whooshes in and sucks you into the void. NO. Don’t even peek through the eye hole.

  • Actually, even as the super Chumpy I am, I fantasise about having that final conversation. And I can assure you that it’s my meanest streak asking for it. It’s that desire to say I didn’t mean any of the ‘pick-me’ crawling, self-blaming nonsense I said back then. It’s that desire to set certain things straight.

    But then I think, why bother? I know who would come out feeling sore. It’s not worth the hassle.

    (Hey! Is this Tuesday?)

    So, RS, stay NC and let her stew in her own juice. She doesn’t deserve your attention.

  • Absolutely no to the “final conversation”. You will leave that “conversation” feeling frustrated, out of sorts and then very angry. She doesn’t want a conversation, she wants/needs to knock you down just one more time.

    “I do not want to initiate a reconnection or friendship, I have no interest in that.” She’s a pissa.

    Your response should be you have no interest or need for a final conversation and the last thing she should worry about is you reaching out in the future for a conversation.

  • Agreed with CL and all comments above. Anything you say to her will only serve as more potential ammunition for her narrative. She’ll twist and turn even the simplest of statements, as she already has.

    What I’ve learned is that, in these types of situations, closure comes from within. It’s personal work to convince yourself that obtaining closure from your ex-wife will not occur because, in fact, she is not at all the person with whom you thought you were married. What you want is to reconcile the “current her” with the “past her,” and get some understanding from the “past her” about why the “current her” is such an a-hole. BUT, the “current her” is the real her and the “past her” never existed, not in actuality.

    Literally, anything else is a better use of your time. Go out and watch bees pollenate or enjoy a sunset or try a new wine or take out the garbage. Anything else but engage with her.

  • Dear RS,
    Don’t take the bait. Gray rock is the way to go, with help from an attorney if necessary. Closure, an apology after an epiphany on the part of a narcissist is NEVER going to happen. Ever.
    It was pointless to heed a therapist’s advice when I was a teenager to “share my feelings” with my father regarding his abandonment. This was the same therapist my parents used for couples counseling as well as family therapy (lots of income to pay for his Corvette, Jaguar and Italian loafers )Therapist didn’t have a grasp on NPD and abuse. I received a non apology apology. “I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m not responsible for your feelings.” You see how that works ? Like playing handball against curtains.
    I laugh when his flying monkeys send me emails and letters. A private investigator contacted me on Harlow’s behalf (I call my father this as a nod to the real monkey/wire monkey experiment) and sent a follow up letter.The private investigator only met his own father a few times and wrote that I would regret not sorting things out with Harlow. Nothing to sort out with a cheating abuser who ignored and then abandoned his children.
    Harlow’s current wife (#3 !) sent an email to family members claiming I “unleashed an unbelievable vitriolic tirade” about Harlow 😂 Poor woman can’t stand that I cut them off years ago.
    Closure schmosure

    • I mean, this is a perfect example of why you leave the circus, good for you.

      A good friend of mine is a therapist and we had a lengthy talk one time about the industry’s inability to deal with NPD people. It’s systemic. Some therapists do try, but ultimately many of these people can be so slick that they are undetected. My ex is one of them. Had/has everyone but a select few fooled. He wears his mask well.

  • Through court order, the XW forced family therapy for our family (me, her, and 2 kids), and individual therapy for 1 kid.

    Re: the family therapy, when the therapist broached repeatedly about the topic of having the XW and I talk about why there was a need to divorce, the XW deflected and consistently responded back to the therapist that “family therapy is not about him and I, but for our children.” So, for pretty much every family therapy session, I basically drifted off through each session, and didn’t say a word. When her and the therapist asked why I was not participating in family therapy, I gave a similar robotic response of “family therapy is not about her and I, but for our children.” I’m sure I came off sounding like a jerk, but hey, that’s what she wanted, and that’s what I felt.

    So, back to the focus of this topic, the OP’s questions about whether or not he should meet w/her. My question to you is: what’s in it for you? You’ve set your boundaries, and she keeps trying to cross them. If you feel that hearing from her will give you closure, then it’s up to you to sift through what’s legit and heartfelt vs. what’s BS. If the request is so that she gets closure, then why give her that satisfaction?

    • Note to all chumps. Learn to steer clear of people that knowingly and willfully violate your clearly stated boundaries.

  • Pick a really great friend, plan lunch. Go to your favorite place.

    DON’T eat her shit sandwich picnic lunch that she’s clearly planned. The thing to do is stay no contact.

    And I’m taking my own advice, friend. We are in this together.

  • I would stay no for your own sanity. BUT in my head I’d reply- no need. I know who you are because actions speak louder than words and you’ve shown me who you are.

  • When commanded to have this discussion, I said I would do it provided it was with either a counsellor or a lawyer present. Hmm yes, after i said this (in a public place), being subjected to a non stop barrage of abuse in a savage undertone through clenched teeth while we walked 4 shopfronts to the pharmacy to get a statutory declaration witnessed, was quite enough to confirm my refusal. Being able to walk away while he still ranted was very liberating. Ditto at the bank when he tried to detain me outside – after we’d signed off to close joint accounts – ‘to discuss it’ (read stand there while i rant at you, beeyatch). My daughter drove past us, she told me later. I’m so glad I wasn’t the one ranting.

  • RS,…ML here…fellow brother chump.. SLAP! Wake up brother. Damn! I broke my 2×4!!

    NC for 11 months, Blocked for 7? It took you 4 months to cut her out. Why? Hopium? Pain shopping?
    Those were my reasons until the futility of it became clear. Your judge might decide that she’s a no show and you then win it all with a divorce declaration plus a 5 year stay the fuck away from me order.
    The point is to get this boot off your throat and let the long arm of the law(yer) do its thing. She’s really not needed. Her entitlement struck me. I’d have gotten 2 sentences in before I forwarded that to my attorney then deleted, burned or binned it.

    My only response to my x was “We have nothing Left to talk about, There’s nothing left to say”. Followed by NC. She left me, I divorced her… enough said.

    Healing occurs everyday we remain vigilant to capture every illusionary thought and hit the STOP play button. Soon the mind clears of it all and RS will find himself again . Think about this Songbird

    Dude. You’ve done spectacular work in your NC. Keep the Radio silence, avoid the triangulation of your radio frequency and don’t reveal your position. There’s a recon patrol stalking you. Find a defilade as shelling is forecast to bring the rain.

    Although your D-process will be delayed it will complete itself- at it’s appointed time. You have No Control of that. Your hired legal representative does. I know you’re impatient to git er done but when you get that signed decree in your hands a pressure relief valve will vent the hyper-vigilance and it will deflate like a beach ball.

    You are the commodity with the HIGH STOCK VALUE. We as a community of the forlorn and spiritually abused warriors become the guides to get back behind the front line to safety. YOU.WILL.GET.THERE. ML out

  • Hi RS:

    Why give her another whack at the pinata? She’s hoping that if she hits you hard enough, some really good candy (kibbles) will fall out. Starve her.

    To add to the candy analogy, Forest Gump said life is a lot like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are going to get. But with FWs, life is more like a box of milk duds: you always know what you are going to get.

  • This one is easy. You reply, “Great, then I’ll pick up the signed papers from friend tomorrow.” She did say she would drop them off today or tomorrow at friend’s place.

    No need to even reference her ridiculous and self-serving request to air her ‘closure’ at you

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