Many chumps have reached out to ask me if I’ve watched the HBO documentary “Allen vs. Farrow,” about Dylan Farrow’s (alleged, convincing… utterly convincing) sex abuse by filmmaker Woody Allen and the custody trial Allen waged against his long-term partner, actress Mia Farrow.
Quack therapists and parental alienation? Hysterical scorned women? Litigation abuse? This is the stuff of Chump Nation. I finished watching it this weekend. It’s compelling viewing, but it’s pretty stomach churning.
In fact, I’m usually not at a loss as to how to organize my thoughts, but this documentary is so rich with Allen’s DARVO mindfuckery I don’t even know where to begin.
1.) Well, let’s start with the most important point — I believe Dylan. That Allen abused her. #TeamDylan
2.) I know Woody Allen is supposed to be a cinematic genius, and I get that many find it difficult to reconsider their opinion on A Respected Genius, but did anyone here ever like Manhattan? It came out in 1979 and I saw it my freshman year of college in 1984 and found it utterly incomprehensible (as a 17-year-old girl named Tracy) that 17-year-old Mariel Hemingway would date a 42-year-old twice-divorced twerp in a pilled sweater. It skeeved me out then, it skeeves me out now.
3.) All to say, it’s not like the guy was hiding his penchant for much, much younger girls.
4.) Not that this comes up in the documentary, but Rowan Farrow is clearly Frank Sinatra’s son. Whatever Mia was doing stepping out on Allen, in my opinion, is completely irrelevant compared to the horror she suffered having her children sexually abused. Can you imagine finding out the Other Woman was your college-aged daughter? Or that your boyfriend molested your 7-year-old child?
My take is that all the rage Allen accused Mia Farrow of having — “scorned,” “hysterical” — is total narc projection. He’s the furious and vindictive one.
What kind of monster sues a woman for custody of her children after having an affair with his own step-daughter? Impression management as attack. Mia’s the unfit parent? REALLY? You. Fucked. Your. Step-Daughter.
5.) Let’s talk about hysterical, scorned women for a moment. I found the news reporting at the time (1992-93) completely okay with maligning Dylan (a child!) and her mother as liars. As mentally unwell.
That really stuck with me, because on a side project, I’ve been researching the horrors of the Baby Scoop Era (1945 – 1972, the years before Roe v. Wade). How in the 1960s the American Academy of Pediatrics said that single mothers were mentally unfit. The recommended solution was to surrender their children to “good homes.” Raped? Unfit. Had pre-marital sex? Unfit. Thought they could support their children alone? Unfit.
How readily our world believes women are crazy and should be punished.
6.) Every chump can relate to the horror of Not Being Believed. That is what this series powerfully documents, and we document it here on this blog — how easy it is to blame the victim and side with the “winner.” The powerful one. The charming one. The non-grief stricken one. We’ve all known Switzerland friends, people who minimize with “neutrality”, the RIC who wants you to own what you did to make this person abuse you. How damaging it is.
Great article in Esquire by Dom Nero on struggling with the Bitches Be Crazy cultural bias:
While Dylan and Mia Farrow recounted the traumas they suffered at the hands of this powerful and manipulative man with such horrifying frankness, I felt an inclination not to believe their stories. Something from within my gut was saying these women are not telling the truth. They seem vindictive. Unhinged. Crazy. I know better than to listen to this voice.
It’s something about the way Allen defends himself on a 60 Minutes interview, saying, “Be logical about this. I’m 57. Isn’t it illogical that I’m going to pick this moment in my life to become a child molester?” And he goes on to insist, “if I wanted to be a child molester, I had many opportunities in the past.” It’s something about us–about men and how we are raised to view women. It’s that unspoken agreement we have when all the women leave the table, when we’re a few drinks in, when we nod our heads around that word we use so much to describe them. Crazy.
7.) Dylan never changed her story. Whether or not anyone believed it. I thought the most powerful part of the film is when her therapist told her not to tell. That it would “set back years of healing.” And she said, “but I wasn’t healed.” She was still alone.
Until she told. And found others had suffered the same things. THEN she healed.
Anyone else watch the documentary? What did you think?
I’m just about to start watching this documentary. Never liked Woody Allen from day one and I believe Dylan!
Yep, me too! I always believed Dylan when this story came out because I could totally relate.
At about the same time the Mia/Woody drama was in the news I disclosed to my extended family that my step-father had molested and tried to rape me 10 years earlier. They showed all the same disbelief the news media played out. My family members stood firmly behind my step-father. Because I had anxiety and depression, I was the less credible one and he was the believable one. Of course, he denied it and became the victim with help from my mother (“after all we’ve done for her, how could she??”). He played the victim and nearly every family member sided with him. And he wasn’t even a blood relative of theirs. I was. It was really astounding. Having been through the exact same mindfuckery by my own blood relatives, I have always believed Dylan.
I’m so sorry you went through that. Even worse, that they didn’t side with you!! Damn!
The anxiety and depression were more than likely caused by your pig of a step father and your indifferent mother. Plus the other flying monkeys. Even if say, your mother really did not believe you, you would think she and other family members would have followed up with why you accuse your step father. Family therapy or something. Same applies to your step father. If someone accused me of a heinous crime or action and I was innocent, I’d want to get to the bottom of why the person accused me. It sounds as if you were blown off and they swept this under the rug.
I don’t know if I’ll watch it. (The MJ doc took a lot out of me.) I don’t need to see it anyway, to know Dylan is telling the truth. Proof that SHE is telling the truth? Show me proof that Allan ISN’T a pedophile! His movies! His WIFE! He married his daughter for crying out loud!
I was creeped out by Allen’s narcissism as a small child. I hated his movies and never understood why beautiful young women fell all over him… Until I realized that it was a fictional world he dreamed up himself. Movie magic.
The recent interview with him and Soon-Yi said nothing and everything. That poor girl.
I’m glad that Dylan has finally gotten her say. I hope she finds the peace and happiness she deserves. And good for her brother, standing by her and believing her too.
woody allen married his own adoptive daughter and had children with her. I haven’t seen the documentary. How was he allowed to marry her. Unfortunately, child abuse is more common than you think.
If so recall correctly, she was 21 at the time they married and Mia had adopted her alone prior Allen. They started their affair when she was 17, but in Hollywood no one bats an eyes about those sordid details. Disgusting.
Having sex with a 17 year old old kid you helped raise is not an “affair”. It’s called abuse and rape.
I haven’t seen it but I can’t help but think about the young woman’s life he ruined! She’s permanently estranged from her mother’s side.
it’s so ick!
I don’t think Allen ever legally adopted her, Mia had. He “just” (JUST) was around the entire time she was growing up. ????
In fact that was kinda part of his defense, that she wasn’t HIS kid!
I think he did that on purpose. Probably because he was sexually abusing her from the beginning and grooming her for marriage. Not adopting her would allow the marriage legally and give him an “out” if people had a problem with it. Because she’s “not my daughter!” I think the whole thing was planned. And the most horrifying part is it worked.
Right on. The most horrifying thing IS when these sick plans work.
Mia adopted Soon Yi with her ex André Previn. But Woody acted as her father figure. Dylan was adopted when Mia and Woody failed to conceive. Extra disgusting that he abused Dylan. Ronan doesn’t look a bit like Woody. Some of that ugly would have shown. Frank’s kid for sure.
That fact alone is enough to know he is a creep. He’s a wealthy, powerful man he’s had enough of both to have the ability to hide much of what he does. I believe if this is what is being said there is likely a lot more that is yet to be uncovered.
I always thought he was a creep and never believed him. I will watch.
I have watched all 4 parts and totally agree with you on all points, CL.
The moment which chilled me to the bone was the recorded phone call, where Mia asked if he was recording the conversation, and he replies, “me? I would never! You know I wouldn’t know how to set any of that up!” A minute or so later, he tells her he has another call, and tells the caller that he’s recording a conversation with Mia and will call them back. Made my skin crawl.
Just mind blowingly similar to crap my ex would effortlessly do and lie about. Up to and including inappropriate behavior with under age women.
They always record phone calls. My ex has been recording phone calls with my kids for years. He finally got the dirt he wanted on me when I made the decision to tell my kids that the reason their dad had supervised visitation with them is because he has the disease of addiction. I didn’t slander him one bit- but they needed answers. They’d been asking me for over a year why things had changed and he sure as heck wasn’t about to tell them the truth. My son asked him in a phone call about it and he took me to court, using the recording as proof of “parental alienation”. This is in CA, where it is illegal to record phone calls! He finally dropped the case when he saw he might face criminal charges. But I have no doubt he still records. It’s sickening.
Saying someone has the “disease of addiction” when true is very civil. There are so many other labels, not so civil you could have used and it still would have been the truth.
The disordered are big on setting you up to record you. I’ve had personal experience where someone we had hired to advocate an insurance claim on a property we owned out of state (I considered him a jerk but had no idea at the time he was a full blown sociopath) also added items that were not claim related. I spoke personally to the insurance adjuster and had the false claim items removed. I never informed our “advocate”. Later when we had a falling out which always happens with the disordered he threatened to expose the false insurance claims. I very calmly told him (knew I was being recorded) that the false claims HE submitted I removed so he could knock himself out if he wanted to report the items to the insurance company.
While we should always be above board in our every day life, you need to be super duper clean when dealing with the disordered. They will try to rope you into criminal deceit so they have something on you.
“The disordered are big on setting you up to record you.” —Cannot be stressed enough. My FW is using this as platform for court. Hoping that it is seen for what it is, a manipulation.
“They will try to rope you into criminal deceit so they have something on you.”– Exactly, mine would try to lead me to physically threaten him. Please be wise chumps, these people are not normal they are so dangerous.
This is why I only communicate by text or email.
I also had it written into my contract that I will only accept payments from him by direct deposit. One time he was super insistent on giving me cash, but I refuse. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that his best friend got arrested for passing counterfeit money a week later.
They are always up to something and never to be trusted.
The good news is, it’s made me a better person and mother. I have no choice but to keep my reputation squeaky clean, because he’ll pounce on any imperfection and use it against me.
Fake money ???? Well there you go. Good on you for standing your ground.
Oh yes. They’ll bait you into “domestic assault” to arrest you and kick you out of the house by restraining order. I know a cop that did that to his wife. The wife was his former affair partner and since he lined up another girlfriend she had to go. They deserved one another.
I think what saved me from some crap from my ex was that he was desperately trying to preserve his new promotion, so he tread lightly with me, once he left the house.
I even had the locks changed on the house as soon as he moved out, though we were not legally separated yet. Technically, I could have gotten in trouble for that, but I banked on the fact that he did not want me to go to court and have our domestic situation hit the blotter.
I was right, he didn’t say a word. I needed a safe place, and that was the only way I could get it.
He once came over and in a round about way tried to accuse me of making calls to the whore. I whipped around and said, I never called her, not once. (I didn’t) Hell, I would barely even talk to him when he called, I had no interest in either of them, I was just trying to stay sane and upright.
Anyway, I told him I didn’t call her and you know it, I wouldn’t give either of you the satisfaction. He tucked tail and left.
Honestly if anyone called her (which I doubt) I am betting it was his mother. He was ignoring her and wouldn’t speak to his mother at that time. She was about to go insane. But honestly I think he or she made it up, because they needed me as the bad guy to keep the excitement going. I didn’t think of that then, but in hind sight; it sounds reasonable.
I knew where he was living, so I told his sister who passed it on to his mother. His sister just pretended someone else told her to keep me out of the fray. Once his mother knew where he lived, she settled down a bit. She also marched right over there to talk to him. Lol.
He lost his promotion, (got busted) and lost his plush office, but hey he won a whore that had been passed among several married men. Yay fw.
My EXH and I had a very quick divorce (thankfully). About three weeks after DDay, which was about one week after the separation papers were signed he called me outside after dark. Asked me if I had sent something to his new girlfriend because she got notice she had to come to the Post Office to sign for it.
I said, nope not me and turned around and walked back into the house. I think she wanted to stir the pot a bit and play a victim as he lived here for two months while he cherry picked everything he thought had value from the house.
Bottom line, I agree with you, I think they sometimes do things as they need to have the drama, be the center of attention. I’m so very glad all of that is gone. I actually am not afraid of what I say or do anymore in my own house. Priceless.
It’s all about power and control, isn’t it? Amazing what even glimpses of leverage (like you had at work, Susie Lee) can tell you about the dynamics at play in your abusive relationship.
Reaching a turning point after betrayal is a delicate, messy balance of breaking the abusive cycle to finally stand up for yourself and act in your best interests – while also accepting that your best interests might (unfairly) mean you have to eat a shit sandwich to avoid greater consequences and move on with your life. I’d eaten so much shit that this was not an easy decision, and while leaving felt right, nothing else about it was straightforward. It’s fucked up, and I’m still negotiating how to move forward. Also thinking about where I can fight this battle elsewhere, for myself and others, and in a more productive and healthy way.
As Nikki Giovanni says, you can’t unrape someone. What is justice, then?
I’m betting the OWhore made up receiving phone calls as well. Make you look crazy bad and her the victim.
Jonny Depp did this too. The recordings show his wife as suitably batshit crazy, and him as calm.
Once I started to get cops involved post D Day, I recorded conversations too. He sounds batshit crazy (and was, and no one believed me) and I sounded calm. Because I was recording. I never got to use recordings in court, never wanted it to get to that, and my long game was strong (avoided court, kids are happy, he’s parenting). But it gave me safety. Others could hear his crazy even if I never let them hear it. I could. So I totally get how an unscrupulous entitled fuckwit, like Depp, or Allen, could twist it to their advantage . They know how to trigger us as well.
She recorded him.
Some were recorded by mutual agreement for counseling, others were surreptitious.
Not a good example. As stated previously, she recorded him covertly and some were mutually agreed upon via their therapist.
Oh so true bread&roses. I ate so many crap sandwiches the last year we were together, before Dday; it is a miracle I survived it. I didn’t even begin to understand the stress and horror I was enduring until about six months after Dday.
Amber Heard had a documented record of having physically abused her previous partner, while four of Depp’s previous partners testified on his behalf that he was a gentle, non-abusive man with them. It sounded to me like he was the truth teller and she was the abuser/fuckwit, especially as there were security videos of her cheating with Elon Musk in the elevator of their building when Depp was away. She also cut off Depp’s finger.
He cut off his own finger in one of his regular rages.
Notice that Kate Moss, who was in a hotel suite he once trashed in a rage, said nothing.
His former partner, Vanessa Paradis, relies on him for income.
He’s the powerful superstar, drug and alcohol addict and abuser, not Heard
Following a three-week trial in July last year, Mr Justice Nicol dismissed the star’s libel claim against the publisher of the Sun, finding that a column published in April 2018 calling Depp a “wife beater” was “substantially true”.
The judge that ruled Depp, 57, assaulted Heard, 34, on a dozen occasions and put her in “fear for her life” three times.
The actor asked the court of appeal to grant permission for him to challenge the ruling, with the aim of having its findings overturned and a retrial ordered. However, following a hearing last week, on Thursday the court refused Depp permission to appeal.
KB22, she very well could have.
I just know I never once called the whore. In the year we were legally separated, to include the few weeks after he left and before he filed, I can count on one hand how many times I call him, and it was only for D business, I never not once called him to ask him to come back or to show any interest in that. Not because I didn’t love hi8m, or wasn’t hurt; but my pride stopped me.
He called me way more than I did him. In fact the fucker came by my house once after we had been legally separated for over six months, and invited me to go see his apartment. Snort, that was a big No Thanks. He also wanted to inform me that the guy I went out with was too old for me. Because you know, he was so concerned about me getting hurt. Asswipe. Wonder if the whore ever knew he was coming around? Likely not, I am betting she also never knew he called about six weeks before they ran of to Vegas for their romantic wedding, that he had called and asked me to meet him to talk about “trying again” (I said no, by the way).
I’m halfway through the documentary right now and the phone calls are CHILLING. It’s the exact same narcissist word salad I got from more than one abuser in my past.
Mia’s literally begging him on the phone to just tell her what happened, to please be honest with her. You can hear the grief and confusion in her voice. And the bastard keeps ignoring her pleas, sidestepping, and telling her obvious lies.
You can FEEL how crazy-making it is, even as an observer.
You strike a cord Tracy. People tend side with the “winner”, the powerful one that is entitled to the happiness! The “loser” must have not done a great job. They are grief stricken and who wants that!!!
The narrative of being left is that one. That is why friends leave, people are silent because you are not one of them anymore. “ Something must be seriously wrong with you” for that powerful man to have left you, he is the “victim”, how do you expect him to stick around if you are crying and depressed?
Like Mia said, the story is the one that people believe, and like history, it’s the “winner” that writes it. They leave the important details out like the cause of your sadness: the short skirted coworker that he fucked in his trip to Munich. The holidays they missed when lying about being at work. When you 6 year old daughter lost her first tooth and cried herself to sleep because his dad wasn’t there and have not been for the past two months without explanation. But that is not the story, the story is that they deserve happiness elsewhere because they are that special and you are not.
The media is owned by the same old men and their crooners. They protect each other. They protected Roman Polanski for years. They protected Allen. They protected the sleeze bag politicians and producers and big wig honchos. They also destroyed Rose McGowans career , how dare she say that she didn’t benefit from her rape. Same with Dylan, she must be “scorned”. We must be silenced.
It’s really tough when your own kids don’t know the real story, and you would be called a liar or a crazy person to bring it to light.
Soon-Yi was I believe around 9 or 10 years old when Allen came into the family’s life. There can be no more clearer example of grooming than that.
This occurred to me also. Nothing happens in a vacuum, I don’t think any smart person would believe that Dylan was his first and only victim. I can’t bring myself to watch the series.
‘Xactly. Most victims never tell, so he thinks he’s in the clear. How I wish somebody else would come forward and put that creep away. Bonus creep points for using the sexist “bitches be crazy” societal bias to get away with his evil.
I can’t watch it either. Makes me sick.
Soon Yi is not “the other woman” in my mind, but the victim of long-haul grooming and isolation from her family.
Exactly, UX. Worse, I see Song Yi as his procurer re: their adopted daughters.
I can’t wrap my head around how this isn’t all the proof anyone needs to know Allen isn’t a dangerous, disgusting predator.
Is. He IS a predator.
And she came from a background of trauma and neglect. Many children from such backgrounds develop attachment disorders, where their attachments to parents and caregivers either don’t form or form in unhealthy ways. (I’m the adoptive parent of one.) It’s super, SUPER common for girls with attachment issues to act sexual toward their adoptive fathers or stepfathers or other male adults in their lives. It’s their way of testing the boundaries. And it is the job of the male adults to hold that line firmly and completely and never, ever to allow anything inappropriate to happen.
Regardless of whether he was married to Farrow or lived with her and her kids, Allen was in a parental role to them. His children were their siblings. They traveled together. They hung out and slept over at his apartment. And several of them had been adopted as older children from traumatic backgrounds. It was his responsibility to learn about those issues. Either he didn’t bother – which would be reprehensible – or he knew and just ignored what he knew because he liked the fact that this young woman was willing to have sex with him. Or – and I think this is closest to the truth – he knew the situation and knew that here was a woman he could truly manipulate and keep under his thumb. Because she was damaged. Guys like that love damaged young women. And in doing so, they damage them more.
I believe Dylan – but even without her testimony, all you have to do is look at the Woody/Soon-Yi relationship to know the man is a monster. Full stop.
I won’t watch. Don’t want or need to. He is scum. Side note: I thought they dna testing on mia’s son that showed Sinatra was not father. Though he looks enough like him.
No DNA testing done, according to Ronan. He tells interviewers that he isn’t the person to ask, as he wasn’t there at the time.
Woody Allen has always been a creepy piece of shit.
If you happen to read this Woody, I have this to say to you from one Jew to another:
I’ve practiced in the area of employment discrimination/sexual harassment/sexual assault for 35 years. Allen v. Farrow is a straight-up master class of how you prove something – the gold standard. This is how you prove something in court, and in the court of public opinion. Woody says “the detail of the train set didn’t come out until years later – she never said that!” And then you highlight to the viewers the SEVEN TIMES young Dylan mentioned the train set in the umpteen interviews conducted of her at the time. Boom. They do this with every relevant detail of these events – the proof is undeniable.
Of course Dylan is telling the truth. And of course remaining silent didn’t heal her.
Which is why, dear CL, I am asking you to change your advice to chumps that they eat the shit sandwich of remaining silent about the details of their abuse. I get being careful what you say when you are in litigation, and as a lawyer I will always defer to chumps’ following the advice of counsel in their own particular case. But I hear the advice of “don’t tell people, YOU’ll look like the crazy one!” way too many times on this blog. I disagree. If you follow the detailed, factual, specific recitation of what actually happened, it has consequences. It’s not telling that’s bad, it’s how you say it. Take your time, edit your work, let it sit 24 hours, have a friend read it. BUT DO TELL. Anything else just allows your abuser to escape the natural consequences of their actions, and continues this culture of punishing the abused.
In my own case, my husband left abruptly – I got an email after 17 years together to tell me he was moving out. Below is the email I sent to friends, family, HIS co-workers I had socialized with, etc. I completely own my own experiences in life, I am careful about what I do and say, and I will NEVER be silenced. Before you read what I said, let me update you (almost 5 years later) to let you know that he is estranged from 2 of his 3 children, he quit his job (before his pension vested – glad I dodged that bullet, I negotiated to get things other than that), and had to borrow money from the 1 child who still talks to him to buy a house sight unseen and moved 500 miles away. He was whining to an old friend about how hard it is to meet quality women, so I infer from that he’s alone. Hahahahahaha. (I always heard that from the men my age – mid-50s at the time – who would look at me mournfully across the table and say “I never thought dating would be this hard” (and I always mentally filled in, “you mean, when you left your wife?”). Part of why I told the truth to his work friends is that I heard he was telling them a false version of our break-up that had the balls to suggest that I was the one who asked him to leave, and I knew he would be doing that “poor me” to get them to set him up with their friends. Because of what I wrote them, correcting the lie, that didn’t happen.
Here’s what I wrote (this one to his family, I tweaked slightly for co-workers, mutual friends, etc.) :
“Dear [whoever], I wanted to write to thank you for your love & kindness in the last 17 years [ex] and I have been together. Family is really important to me, and you have been my family, so it’s important to me to tell you what happened (to the extent I understand it myself). After a minor disagreement that lasted a week (about my supposed non-support of [ex]’s hobbies), he threatened to move out. Things then de-escalated and we had a pleasant weekend together, I thought we were moving past it as just one of those things that happens in a long marriage – then I wake up Monday morning to an email telling me he’s putting a deposit on an apartment that afternoon and moving out that weekend. Yes, he emailed me the news he was leaving me after 17 years together. This came out of the blue completely- we had not been arguing on a regular basis, in counseling, etc. (I have been asked about this, so I assume others have this question as well). I was emotionally devastated. To compound that, I had immediate financial worries, as [ex] immediately contacted the utilities companies to tell them he would no longer be paying for the utilities (our housing arrangement is that I pay the mortgage, property taxes, and house insurance, and he pays the utilities). He’s sent me numerous nasty and verbally abusive emails, including threatening to cut off my internet (which I depend on to work) if I didn’t transfer the account by 4 pm that afternoon. (He claimed it was to ensure a “seamless” transition for me- Verizon told me he had a 2-year contract with them, the cancellation fee for which is $160). A PECO worker came pounding on the door to give me a disconnection notice, which was a shock. [ex]’s also claimed that we had a secret sworn “agreement” that anytime one of us felt like leaving the marriage we could just bounce . This upsets me almost more than anything, as it makes a lie out of our marriage. Does anyone think I’m an idiot, that if we really had had that agreement I wouldn’t have gotten a prenup? Or I would have rolled over proceeds from a paid-up house solely in my name into a house in joint name ? Or put my money in a Roth IRA in his name ? He still won’t say anything about why he left other than that he doesn’t believe in “one-way streets” (i.e., I take and he gives, which ignores my moving up here to be closer to his work, not having another baby because he didn’t want one, moving out of my house in [location] that I lived in for 25 years and put a 2-story addition on the year before we connected again because he didn’t like that I had lived there with previous husbands, giving him a house to live in rent-free for 13 years, among other things). About a month ago he got a cell phone, after having mocked people having cell phones for years, and I know he meets female bikers out riding. My doctor recommended a full panel of STD testing, which thank God was negative, but of course the HIV has to be repeated in 3-6 months. My family has been mega-supportive, visiting, taking me out, lending me money so I can give him the $$ he’s demanded to sign papers returning my assets to me, but this whole experience has been emotionally and financially devastating. BTW, to clear up something Nancy mentioned, we are not divorced. [ex] keeps saying we’re divorced, but legally we are not, you have to wait 90 days in PA. We will be divorced then if he agrees to it without demanding more money from me.
Sorry to dump this raft of ugliness into your laps, but you have been family to me, and I know he’s already telling some lies about me, so I wanted to give you the facts. Please feel free to call me [phone], or email, or simply wish me the best in your hearts. I love you all and thank you for being my family.
So please consider having a Friday challenge of “what is the calm, logical, fact-based way YOU did or could have communicated what actually happened to you” to others. Please reconsider the “eat the shit sandwich” advice on this point. TELLING HELPS YOU HEAL. And telling attaches consequences to the behavior. If there are no consequences, how will it ever stop?
And PS, yes, of course Ronan Farrow is Frank Sinatra’s son – look at the pix of them next to each other – and I knew when Mia said “I wish I had never met Woody”, with that complete passion and truthfulness – I don’t think she would have said that if that would have meant she wouldn’t have had Ronan. And I am so thrilled that Ronan’s love for his sister and his evolution through this is what caused him to go after Weinstein and re-ignited the “ME TOO” movement that started with the Anita Hill hearings.
Justice DOES come, if you make it. IF YOU TELL.
I am all for telling. But the world has not changed as the narrative does. And the fact remains, that while you are in *active litigation* anything you post on social media, or blast to your friends, or could be seen by a judge as “alienation” — could hurt you. And you should be aware of the risks.
But this site exists exactly because I believe in TELLING. And documenting. And archiving. All the manipulation, the true costs, the blame-shifting, the similarities in stories. It’s here to change a narrative and that doesn’t happen without speaking out.
I love your site and your message overall – this is a difference of opinion on this one particular aspect of how to navigate these waters. The problem is not telling, it’s what you say. I think we chumps could help each other by teaching each other HOW to tell – clearly, calmly, fact-based. We can show each other the way, and in doing that we can speed up the rate of change on this. You and I agree that you should run things by your lawyer if you’re in litigation. But I’d like to have folks think more about there being a real price – to yourself personally, in having to STFU about the truth, and socially, in failing to hold wrongdoers accountable – in being too cautious in this regard. Allen v. Farrow has brought a light to how high that price is.
Buried in my divorce decree is wording to the effect that I will not badmouth the Dick or publish any of the evidence that I found. I signed at the time because I was exhausted and broke……I wish I would have known how that box sitting at my lawyers office would haunt me.
I will have to disagree with you. My XW is a narcissist/BPD. When I told people about my XW’s cheating she went after EVERYONE of my friends saying she was “abused”. I lost a lot of my friends over it. Even my daughter warned me to be quiet because of who their mother is. I am skeptical of abuse charges because of that. I have seen to many women use it as an excuse to smear an innocent man. I have learned you don’t have to tell ANYONE about what happened. You live your best life as you can.
Men play the physical abuse card too – my ex ran around telling anyone who would listen that I beat him for 20 years. He put physical abuse in his response after I filed for divorce. His official story after he left to be with Shmoopie was that I beat him up, threw him out, and turned our kids against him – for no reason other than I was crazy/abusive. The most upsetting part is he would push and shove me when he was angry, he literally beat me once right before we were married (I was too embarrassed to call it off and I blamed myself and he blamed me too- I apparently said something that warranted it – I thank my FOO for normalizing that for me.)
Right before he left for AP he shoved hard enough that I fell and then he started screaming at me to stop hitting him – he wanted our children, young adults at the time to hear him. At one point between DDay and the divorce being final, he actually asked me why I did not put physical abuse in my original paperwork – he looked puzzled when I told him it was too humiliating. Anyway, my attorney got him to admit to being physically abusive in his deposition. So yeah, I told anyone in our social shared orbit that he had a 37year old pregnant (to him) girlfriend who was married to someone else with 2 little kids (he was 56 at the time.) He later told me that he learned his lesson about the BIG LIE – he never thought that I would spill the beans on that affair and numerous others. Although I am sure the BIG LIE is how he hooked current wife – not AP. I was compartmentalized out of that part of his social circle and suspect that she was an earlier AP. I still do not share the detail of the physical abuse because quite honestly it is too humiliating.
My ex was extremely physically violent but I never covered for him. I went to the work’s doctor and counsellor and documented everything. Long story short, I eventually got a DV conviction against him in court. I later found out that he was telling his cronies down at the ho bar that I was physically violent to him. You can’t win with these disordered AHs!
That seems to be a card they play, the projection of saying you are the abuser when in reality it was them. It seems like if you want to know what they were doing lisiten to the things they claim they endured.
His abuse of you is not your shame to bear. It’s his. You don’t need to tell, but I hope you will divest yourself of your feeling of humiliation.
Hope – if what you signed is a typical Non-disparagement clause, that is NOT a gag order. And NOT a non-disclosure agreement (non-disclosure is what harvey weinstein had his victims sign and gave them money to stay silent). Non-disparagement is a typical divorce decree inclusion that is meant to protect children and prevent a parent from bad mouthing the other parent. Publishing evidence would be considered disparaging though so be careful of that! But calm, clear, age appropriate communication of facts is not disparagement.
The facts may sound like badmouthing if you editorialize, sometimes facts are ugly. And as my lawyer said, “the truth is your absolute defense” meaning as long as you only speak factually you are fairly safe. If your ex did take you to court over the non disparagement clause a judge might give you a slap on the wrist and lecture you about keeping it friendly with your ex for the children, but that’s about it. (Unless you get a shitty judge). I think my ex thought we had signed a non-disclosure agreement. I had to laugh at his entitlement – I pay him alimony AND I had a gag order? No, that’s not what non-disparagement is. I am not a lawyer and your first priority is keeping yourself safe, so check with a lawyer in your state.
And only after dust has settled with divorce and custody.
Hmmmm….going to dig it out and check. Later, the morning of court to try to get him to actually follow the decree he signed and get my name off his 200k boat mortgage…..his lawyer had all these threats that I was badmouthing him to the kids(all in their 20’s at the time). My stance was it’s not badmouthing if it’s the truth, and DD is the one who actually found the shit, and had questions….the kids and I are trying to heal, and the truth is part of that. He’s all about protecting his meal ticket Howife and security clearance.
beautifully said, thanks.
The wording in the last section of my decree is very specific!
I cannot say anything about the ex or the OW – literally nothing. It’s the standard boilerplate non-disparagement stuff plus extra language to make sure I say nothing.
Anyone reading this needs to be very careful about giving advice to other chumps or chumps taking advice.
The only person you should ask about this is your lawyer.
My legal team knew this would be the hardest thing for me to swallow and they went out of their way to actually create a list in plain English about what can can and cannot say.
I love chump lady and advice for other chumps but advice is never one size fits all so be aware of that before suffering any potential consequences.
When one party is blocked from saying anything against the other party, that alone is telling and most people would be able to figure out the party blocking the other does not want certain items divulged. I’m not talking about blocking lies and defamation, I’m talking about blocking the truth that will make said party look bad. I suppose you could say “Sorry, I signed a legal document blocking me from saying anything or publishing the evidence I had against Dick” when people question.
Oh, I do that all the time and it usually tells everyone exactly what they need to know about ex and the ow!
I agree with telling with brevity and clarity.
No need for a word vomit of your tale. People either don’t care, or use your life as an entertaining Shakespearean soap opera. Save your dignity. Tell most people in 10 words or less.
Woody Allen is up there with other “famous” but tolerated pedophiles….both dead and alive whom I find despicable.
Speaking of which, I need a Friday challenge of bootcamp grey rock comebacks, one liners. What is a comeback for when they send you an unsolicitied picture of them in their youth as “bait?” I said, “Seen that already.” So, they sent me another picture…. I am ignoring…but I so want to say, “You’re a narc….(and deliver a word vomit).”
Also, I find that when you give people a brief headline, they convince themselves in your favor. Allowing the jury to self convince is the most powerful. Follow up in a few months with an updated headline, “He hasn’t even contacted his kids.” Now, he’s a super dirtbag. When you come off as confrontational and detailed, most back away to the middle ground or avoid your drama.
DBA Xena: Maybe others have better advice, but I think the comeback is…ignore it and then mock him here. Otherwise, you stay stuck in the chump/cheater cycle. Don’t let that FW pick at your wounds, and give your nervous system a fighting chance at settling down. Also, why dignify and validate that fool with a response? You’ve probably already said some version of it 1,000 times already, and where has it gotten you? It’s a waste of your precious life.
Easier said than done! It took me a really long time to follow through on this because the BS continued after I left and it was so sick and upsetting and triggering. I basically had to white knuckle it and treat responding to triggers like an addiction, and now… a few months out, and it’s made a world of difference.
If they send you bait, the only other response besides silence is “new phone, who dis?” Otherwise you’re still biting. Honestly, the more clever or curt or witty the response, the more kibbles they get.
The comeback is…blessed Silence. Do not respond. Let them Send whatever they want. Don’t care. Btw, Silence is the very best revenge on cheaters who want to be central in every life they touch. They can’t stand being ignored. Let them be unimportant.
I have learned, the hard way, that it doesn’t matter what I say, or do. My words or actions have no impact on the FW. In fact, the more I try to make my point (thereby tipping my hand that something is important to me) the more likely FW will oppose me simply because he can. It’s fun for the sadist. Entertainment. Centrality. Kibbles. If I am silent, he has no door into my head. If he has no ideas about my thoughts and feelings, he cannot use them against me or sabotage my life any longer. I cannot change his mind or behavior. He does not care. He is going to do what he’s going to do. I need to get on with my life and not worry about him.
I never contact the FW; he always contacts me. Before I respond these days, I always ask myself if the comment is necessary. I used to repeat myself and try to reason with FW ad nauseum. But, my therapist pointed out that FW is an adult and he gets my points he just plays word salad, dumb or forgetful—but he is not. Now I state things one time. I do not argue, I do not persuade or cajole. I do not remind. I do not reply to his arguments. I do not ENGAGE the enemy. I do not give personal details or even use adjectives. The only exception to this is if he starts demanding x or y to do with the kids. I will just repeat the same phrase, usually prefaced by ‘please’ to every threat or demand two or three times and then stop responding.
I have given myself permission to disengage. Not all questions need to be answered. Not all comments or pictures need a reply. This is my power—I get to CHOOSE when and where (and why and how)— or even IF —I respond—Mostly NOT. FW hadn’t got much to say that is meaningful to my life. Because it’s all about them, channel stuck on This is my Life. Shut that down.
I think Wow would be great. Initially they may think that’s positive, but let them ponder on it a little.
Interesting that the entire concept of this whole “parental alienation” concept seemed to have arisen because of the Allen-Farrow litigation (I think the documentary mentioned it in passing). The documentary also emphasized through statistics that abusive parents seem to be the ones most likely to accuse the other parent of parental alienation as leverage in order to maintain access to the child or children and/or to control the other parent. I think in light of what is being learned, the entire legal concept of what constitutes “parental alienation” needs to be re-evaluated and refined or eliminated.
I agree. Those quotes on how pedophilia is “natural” by the guy who invented the syndrome. O.M.G.
This is very risky when custody of children is involved. No matter how frustrating it is, when you are fighting for your children I believe it’s best to not do anything that may be perceived negatively. If kids aren’t involved then have at it.
Yeah it sucks to remain silent. I want to tell all of my FWs friends what he is really like but honestly, it just makes me look ridiculous and he would spin it to prove how terrible I am.
JO I agree with you. My XW is so highly thought of by most, but not all, people that when I have told a few people the details they have actually told me that I am lying or telling half truths. It is disheartening.
I don’t think eat shit sandwiches is to remain silent at all. I read the book and it is about you having to deal with shit that you didn’t want and be left to leave with it. One serving after the next, cheaters continue to never ending buffet. I’ve never seen being silenced as part of the advice given at CL.
I think some people can afford telling while others can’t. My hands are tied. If I tell my kids won’t eat. If I discreetly settle my kids may even get to live with me in the marital home. If I tell the powerful man with the big pockets will exercise the full range of powers and make sure that I become homeless, discredited, uninsured and destitute. If I quietly go away I might one day retire without having to sleep in couches or live in shelters.
I have ate a lot of shit sandwiches that I did not ask for. I am putting forward my best strategy to survive and make sure my kids have one sane parent, me. To do that I have to kept my cool, choose what to say and to whom to protect what it’s rightfully mine and my kids.
I wish I could vent it all out to the high winds, no debate, but not everyone has the privilege to do so and still be able to live with dignity, even if you are the injured one.
I’ve told my side of the story, omitting the most sordid of details. I am tired and I want nothing to do anymore with his fat mistress, side side chick, enablers, affair cheerleaders etc. They believe his narrative, so does his family, so be it. Only he really knows what he did, I’be only seen the ugly tip of the iceberg. He can go on telling his lies, I know my story because I lived it, and I don’t really care what other people think. The people that lived it, seen it and cared cared to ask know. Everyone else can go fuck themselves.
At the end, I will get a juicy check, snd the love and respect of my kids. I might even stay in the marital home until my kids graduate. That is all that matters to me. I’m not stooping to his level, he is doing a wonderful job ruining his life and he needs no help in that department. I have zero inclination to make a case for myself or explain. Idgaf. I am no wasting anymore time on that anymore. I ate the shit sandwiches, now I’m losing a cheater and gaining a life.
Oh, and let me ad that I did consult with the most powerful attorney in town. When he learned whom he would have to deal with, he told me that I couldn’t afford him because justice would cost me 150k in legal fees that I didn’t have, and that it would be better off for me to accept whatever he offered for my silence than to lose the little that I have in court exposing him. He told me that he sympathized, but I would be better off with a cheaper attorney, or I could just be a silent witness. I felt powerless when the best attorney dumped me because he is the attorney of the rich and powerful, but the attorney of the injured spouse. He is not the attorney that would stick his neck out fighting for the abandoned spouse, no, he is the one that make sure cheaters win and get away with their crimes.
Like Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, that schmuck Anthony Wiener and all other powerful perverted men, the day will come. I will keep my dignity and perhaps my house, and my cheap pauper lawyer will fight for me. He will take my last remaining dollars that my fw did not take away from me.
Queen of Chumps
Power to you!
Yes, you are not shouting out to everyone what a sick your h is/ was. And that’s ok.
I believe that the power chumps are trying to regain starts in our heads- not in reaction from other people.
You may not be telling everyone about your h’s despicable behavior- but you already SHIFTED the attention- to yourself and your children. Everyone is different- we have to pick the road that will be the best for us/ our kids.
Would your kids benefit from you being $less living in the shelter?
Keep going, your mind is in the right place, you are regaining control of your life, you are making YOUR choices.
Q of Chumps,
I just read what you have written here and it struck a chord. I don’t know your complete story so on that I can’t comment.
My comments are to the ones above about eating shit sandwiches.
I did that too. I was very naive when I reached out to a lawyer. I was instantly shocked as I called one lawyer after another all of whom told me basically the same thing – tread lightly…
I did and had full support of my family and close friends throughout the process. Part of me felt like I was being dis-loyal to myself. That I was letting him take full advantage while I complied and smoothed things over which, by the way, wasn’t hard to do because I had been doing it for 30+ years.
I didn’t know about CL then so I was still in deep denial too – hoping he would ‘wake-up’ and we could pretend it never happened. All I had to read was literature from the RIC and I was willing to ‘stand by my man’ poor sad sausage that he was…
In a way that was a blessing because I did come out okay in the end. Not as well as I could have but okay – damage control has been manageable.
While I did not stand up for myself on numerous occasions the one time I did it changed my life.
The life changer was going no contact.
I did that once I found CL and had read her book and learned that something like that existed.
A simple move but it opened up an entire new world to me so all that went before it is now small stuff in comparison.
New behavior for me so it did feel awkward at the time but I have stuck to my guns knowing if I let down I will pay a hefty price of crazy making unleashed.
I have my truth. I loved him for all I was worth.
He has to live with what he did to not only me but his own children. He is a serial cheater so their entire lives were lived clouded with lies of betrayal which displayed itself as his always being too busy, tired, depressed etc to show up for them unless it was a ‘special’ occasion that would make him look good.
Indeed – leading a double life takes a lot of energy especially when you trying to portray yourself as an exemplary citizen.
I digress into sarcasm.
Better stop and wish you the best as you move forward. So glad you found CL and posted here too!
Falco, you are speaking only from your experience. Different states, judge’s and areas have very different attitudes, rules and laws. A letter like yours to so many, would be parental alienation. Could get you fined. Would definitely be weighed against you, while litigation was on going. Mr CL, said it best “If it feels good, don’t do it), at least till divorce is final. My children were grown, but I would never risk custody or financials needed for them, by speaking my truth. Once, it was “safe” I would sing the truth, like a million canaries.
A victim also won’t tell if their abuser is threatening their life if they tell. We have so much more work to do on supporting and believing victims and focusing our attention on the behaviours of abusers, not on the behaviours of victims.
“Once, it was “safe” I would sing the truth, like a million canaries.”
Absolutely, why should the abuser be the only one to be able to speak out. If more BS’s broke the silence and the humiliation of what the abuser did to them while they were having their “harmless fling” it would go a long way to folks recognizing the real carnage of infidelities’ and the associated behaviors.
I think this advice aligns with CLs, overall. CL encourages her readers to speak their truth and not continue to spackle for their abusers but be wary of how your behavior looks to a judge. You advise the same.
I think the thing I would be wary against is putting things like this in writing. As an attorney, I’m a HUGE fan of getting everything in writing when it comes to your abuser. Document document document. If they call and leave a VM, and it’s something you need to deal with, respond in an email. Screenshot all their texts and email them to yourself for safe keeping. Document document. Save everything.
For things like this tho, if one feels compelled to speak their truth, proactively or reactively, I recommend doing so verbally–over the phone or in person. Even if that means you need to prepare a written script and read it to someone, do that. Any kind of paper trail like this has, at least, the potential to come back and bite you in the ass. Also, when you commit to speaking your truth, instead of writing your truth, you discover who really needs to hear this and who doesn’t. It’s easy to email blast a narrative, but that ease can be dangerous, especially for someone in the throws of despair.
My husband was a Woody Allen fan, but stopped because of what he heard about Dylan. I haven’t seen a Woody Allen film in almost 2 decades. It’s truly a victory that people are finally ready to believe Dylan.
I wish I could feel the victory. But these stories also remind me of so many other depressing things. Brett Kavanaugh and how so many of us were robbed.
But please take heart at how NOW the story has come to light. Change is slow, but it does come. It always makes me smile to remember how “ME TOO” actually started with Anita Hill. I have a “ME TOO, ANITA” button that was made in 1991 by the Minnesota Stillwater Women’s Collective. That was the first time that women actually started telling their stories of sexual harassment at work. Then the movement died down for a bit and later (sparked by Ronan Farrow’s reporting – there’s your karma) roared back. So don’t be discouraged. Any little thing you do now in being more open about these things will bear fruit, however long it takes.
First – I was raped when I was 10 years old. Like most victims of pedophiles, I was silent about it until I was 26, when I told my mom (shaking like a leaf in fear she wouldn’t believe me. She did, thank goodness.) Since the rapist was an old man who had worked for my grandmother, my mom and I agreed to not say anything more until my grandmother had died, knowing how much it would devastate her. The old guy was long since dead.
What chaps me a bit about the “Me Too” movement is how it enabled women to screech about their supposed sexual attacks, it enabled them to sue that some guy touched them inappropriately – even if accidentally, and it was her shoulder. “He asked if he could KISS me!!” Hey, at least he ASKED. It devalues the experiences of real victims of sexual assault/rape. Maybe I’m older than most here, but I learned, early on, how to shut down unwanted attention, and it has always worked for me except on 2 occasions: the rape, and a sexual assault in college (which would probably escalated into rape had I not managed to escape.)
There is a woman I know who managed to get a guy fired at her place of employment, claiming he was sexually inappropriate with her. Never mind she is having an affair with her boss. Never mind I watched this same woman, on meeting my (then) husband, seductively run her finger down his arm quite deliberately while staring him in the eyes. The details of the “sexual inappropriateness” she supposedly experienced were actually very similar to what she did to my XH. And it got her co-worker fired. The point is, it was documented that she didn’t like this particular employee, he had complained about her, but that didn’t matter. Believe the victim, even if the victim is also a predator.
The double-standard churns my stomach. If my husband had done the same to her, he would have been labeled a creep or worse. But, for some strange reason, it was OK for her to do it to him. Right in front of me.
I absolutely will NOT be watching that movie, or any other Woody Allen films, because I believe Dylan and Mia, and it makes me physically ill. I am so, so sorry for both of them.
Mia, I hope you are here. We believe you.
Just because YOU learned to shut down unwanted behaviour doesn’t mean other people are at fault for not being able to do so, because if they don’t, are they asking for it? Why aren’t creeps learning to keep their gross comments and hands to themselves at a minimum? Why is the onus on victims to call out creeps? And “at least they asked,” well, Bitch Cookie for them. The bar is so low, it’s in hell. This smacks of victim-blaming.
You are correct. As somebody once said, “Just because you see a naked woman walking down the street doesn’t give you the right to rape her. You give her clothes, for God’s sake.”
Sorry about the perceived victim blaming. It wasn’t my intent. Whether you have had a dime stolen, or a million dollars stolen, you are still a victim of theft.
Omg (((Ivyleaguechump))) Your story…no words.
One of the songs from Grease ” Tell me more, tell me more, was it love at first sight? tell me more tell me more did she put up a fight?”
‘Men seldom make passes at girls who wear glasses’ was a popular old chestnut.
A lot of things need to change
I think sexual predators (rapists, pedophiles, etc.) should be exposed and put away. Actually I’d like to see them drawn and quartered but since we are still somewhat a civil society put away will suffice. I also think the same should apply to disordered people that lodge false, vindictive claims against the innocent. It happens far too often.
Those who lodge false complaints should be treated VERY harshly, IMO. They damage the credibility of those with legitimate complaints, making it even more difficult for people to take them seriously.
Thank you for sharing your story, ivyleaguechump. I’m so sorry you had that awful experience so young, and I hope you’ve been able to work through that trauma. How awful to be chumped as well, years later. ((Hugs))
Thanks, LC. I’ve come to understand that early traumatic experience is at least partly to blame for my selection of partners. I was raised in an era when I was taught that no “nice” boy would ever want a “used” girl. Of course, nobody spouting that philosophy had any idea that had happened to me. So, in a nutshell, I sought out the nicest “bad” boys I could find. Unfortunately, I married three of them. All cheated on me.
My skein, pretty much untangled. Finally.
I take issue with your second paragraph. So many of the stories involving touching and “requests” to kiss come from bosses. From a boss it ain’t a request.
I am very sorry for your experience.
There is a spectrum of creepy manipulators, predators and abusers.
Highly inappropriate. And gross.
I guess what bugs me is this: say an OW gets chumped. Would we welcome her here? I’m talking about somebody who KNEW the marital status of her BF.
In the case of the woman who claimed “inappropriate touching” by a co-worker when she did the EXACT same thing to a guy she had just met, I guess I have little pity for.
I used to be a pro opera singer. There was a famous singer, and well-known womanizer we worked with. Rumor had it that he could miraculously help your career if you were female and “spent time” with him. I had that opportunity. I declined. To me, that smacks of prostitution, of a barter. At any rate, he moved on. No harm, no foul, no threats of anything. The point is, like so many celebs, EVERYBODY knew what he was. And there were plenty of women lined up to “spend time” with him. Literally. I watched these women place themselves deliberately in his path. Some of their careers were helped, as far as I could tell. Some weren’t, particularly. But every one of them knew. They KNEW. And then, with the MeToo movement, tried to come out as victims. Can you be a victim when you know the costs going in?
It reminds me a bit of the moms who allowed their children to go to Michael Jackson’s Neverland for sleepovers. You would have to be blind/deaf to not be aware of the pedophile rumors surrounding him. Why on earth would you allow your child to be in that kind of peril….unless there was something in it for you?
Sorry, this whole thing truly makes me ill. It is also possible that my early traumatic experience has numbed me to micro-assaults. Possibly.
>> But every one of them knew. They KNEW. And then, with the MeToo movement, tried to come out as victims. Can you be a victim when you know the costs going in?
You seem certain this happens, and focused on the worst women who abuse the system like abusers. There are other things to focus on. Your posts just inspired me to say “fuck it” about the god awful feeling and focus on the incremental steps towards discernment/wisdom for society. Racism used to be much worse, sexism too, and LBGTQ looks better all the time. It’s so much better than when I was young. I remember being so damn grateful to Anita Hill when I started my career. <3
Also… I know what it's like to sit in a Support Group and hear stories much less worse than mine…. Hard, I blew up once. It took forever before I could share and heal.
I agree. Even though I have a lot of empathy for what Ivy went through, the main thesis of the comment disturbs me. False claims are very rare. I have never seen one in my own experience. But I have seen many, many sexual predator bosses/teachers/caretakers go unchecked.
“…I felt an inclination not to believe their stories. Something from within my gut was saying these women are not telling the truth. They seem vindictive. Unhinged. Crazy. I know better than to listen to this voice.”
I actually think that this is what people believed about ME. It was just not possible for that “charming” guy to have treated her so badly! I did sound crazy and if it had not happened to me, I would not have believed it either.
MY XH called me “crazy” for having all these “demands” that made no sense to him: blow the leaves off the porch? That’s just crazy. I mean, the trees will just continue to drop more leaves on the porch. Besides, he already did that 2 weeks ago.
So, I turned it around on him. Sex, again? Didn’t we do that just two nights ago? That’s just crazy. Not appreciate, but point taken.
I’ve not watched this and I’m not sure if I will. Perhaps he is genius but that doesn’t make him a good person. I made that terrible mistake when I married Dr. Cheaterpants. I mistook intelligence for character.
I also mistook intelligence. Ivy League MBA etc for character. Good point.
You bet! I made the SAME mistake.
Perfectly said – I did the same thing when I married my own Dr. Cheaterpants. AND he’s a huge Woody Allen fan. Go figure.
I too mistook intelligence for character.
So well said! Same here- ex-cheater was talented and super smart. I chose to see that as moral and kind. I definitely saw what I wanted to see.
This is for CL… (first let me say — I didn’t watch the whole Woody Allen documentary but also I didn’t need to. I agree with everything you said. It’s taken so long for these horrible stories to come to light… but like Bill Cosby, Weinstein and the rest, the truth is finally being revealed about these monsters that had the law and media on their side for way too long).
CL, I’ve seen you post a few times about researching the horrors of the Baby Scoop Era (1945 – 1972) when single mothers were deemed mentally unfit.
Did you see the movie “Big Eyes” (the story of Margaret Keane’s paintings that were fraudulently claimed by her creepy psychopath husband Walter Keane)? Basically she was stuck in that situation and married that creep just to be able to keep her daughter.
I believed her when all this was happening. It made me sick to see all the media circus surrounding all of this back then. While the documentary was a tough watch, I’m glad it came out. It gave such a clear view of the manipulations and lies of the time.
Also, when I look at Ronan, all I see is his mother.
I believe Dylan Farrow. I haven’t seen this documentary. But I have a small observation to add: When I first saw news headlines Allen and Previn had married, I thought, “He’s trying to protect himself. He sexually abused his daughter and slipped away from legal consequences. And now he’s using marriage like a shield.”
AGREE AGREE AGREE
Oh yes. And how many of his sick, twisted, friends are protecting him? “I’ll cover for you if you cover for me”.
I think that’s the biz… Hollywood, politics, industry. Seems endemic, especially where money, power and entitlement common currency. They all cover for each other, but it’s out of self interest, not true loyalty and friendship. I saw microcosms of this in my own circle of friends, and I wasn’t surprised at who aided and abetted. They had the same values – not mine.
Bingo — who was among the first idiots to speak up for Harvey Weinstein? Woody Allen. I remember thinking, of allllll people who should be sitting the fack down and shutting up right now. Wow!
That people far and wide couldn’t see it for what it was will always boggle my my mind. He married his daughter… and that makes it okay INSTEAD of reprehensible?
The one time Soon-Yi spoke out, in an interview for Vulture in 2018, she actually corroborates Mia. And sounds like Tracy from Manhattan. And also sounds coached/brainwashed by Woody Allen.
From the interview:
In other words, the first stirrings of what would become an enduring romance sounds like a scene straight out of a Woody Allen movie.
Early on, Soon-Yi says, she and Allen had a conversation about how their relationship might affect Farrow and the family if it were discovered — they had planned to keep it secret. But neither imagined that what Allen called their “fling” would last. “I’d meet someone in college, and that would be done,” Soon-Yi says. “It only became a relationship really when we were thrown together because of the molestation charge.”
She adds, as if to set the record straight, “I wasn’t the one who went after Woody — where would I get the nerve? He pursued me. That’s why the relationship has worked: I felt valued. It’s quite flattering for me. He’s usually a meek person, and he took a big leap.”
I know he’d said that I’d meet someone in college, but I’d already decided. I came to realize how understanding he was and what a sweet person he was. He grew on me.”
Only became a relationship after the molestation charge? Hmmmm….I wonder why…….
This creep was undeniably a wrecking ball and completely destroyed this family and did incalculable permanent damage to everyone in it and attached to it. There are a LOT of women on the planet and he chose to go after the daughter of his girlfriend? Who was also a teenager in high school? That’s isn’t about romance or love. That is PREDATORY. And the longevity of the marriage only says to me how seriously invested he is in his cover story. I actually heard this bullshit from a friend who had been cheated on herself. She really believed that the marriage and the longevity of the marriage disproved the allegations and justified his conduct.
Of course he married Soon-Yi and is still married to her. She is his disguise and “proof” of innocence.
I was abused by a very powerful famous beloved celebrity.
Guess who people would believe if I spoke out?
Guess whose life and reputation would be destroyed?
Guess who would get crucified in the press and on social media?
That’s why people like us keep silent. The civilian who comes out against the beloved celebrity is the one who gets trashed. To me, that Dylan’s mother is Mia Farrow is one blessing in this huge mess.
I am also wondering if Woody went after Soon-Yi much earlier than the current accepted timeline.
I am sorry but not surprised to hear about your experiences, VH. It’s hard enough for women (and men) to be believed under ordinary circumstances. Am sorry as well that you experienced insult on top of injury in your interview with Oprah. Thank you for being a resource here to help new chumps! I’m very grateful for your insight, and that you have chosen to pay your healing forward.
That’s horrid and of course you have to watch out for yourself first.
Yes that’s it 🙁
Why would anyone risk getting publicity on such a risky topic? There is really so little to win.
I do hope there will one day be justice, VH. The Alans, R Kelly’s, Mansons etc are probably just a top of the iceberg..
PPS…I was molested at age 12 by a 19 year old. I was involved with him for nine months. No intercourse but emotional with making out. (Is that “third base”?) It took me YEARS and lots of therapy to even begin to see and feel it for what it was…a CRIME…and not “love”. I am 57 and that shit still affects me. Healing is about lifelong wound-cleaning.
Because of my experience, I have mixed feelings about Soon-Yi . I see her as a victim and also a perpetrator.
I have compassion for her and I also feel “fuck you, lady.”
Mia Farrow was acting? Dylan is making it up? To me, it would be impossible for both of them to be so flawlessly spot on in their reactions, words, feelings, as they so perfectly match my reactions when I was abused, as molested child and adult chump.
Listening to both of them, all I felt was 150% identification.
Is your anger at Soon-Yi because on some level because we’re told victims who don’t stand up to their abusers somehow weren’t strong enough? I wish Soon-Yi would back her little sister. Yet another layer to the suck fest. Speak up and get called crazy, don’t speak up and feel guilty and less than.
Hmmmm……what happened to my avatar?
I’m in my 30s. Never seen a Woody Allen film before and knew nothing about his movies until I watched the documentary this week.
I was gobsmacked to learn all his films are based on the premise of middle-aged men preying on teenagers. One of Allen’s most lauded films, Manhattan, is apparently about a 40something creep sleeping with a 17-year old.
WTF? And people still defend him?? How has this predator operated out in the open for decades? How did anybody think this garbage was art?
All I can say is that my Creep-O-Meter went ballistic the first time I was exposed to Allen when I saw Annie Hall in the Theatre and I’ve never been able to stomach listening to him speak. In my opinion that monster is guilty of molesting his step children and likely many, many more. Ugh!!
The press tried to rehabilitate Roman Polanski for raping a 13 year old too. Kind of amazing it caught up with Weinstein. Just depends on the narrative they are pedaling.
I found it very disturbing that the actress Angelica Huston was in the house when Polanski took the 13 year old behind closed doors. She didn’t intervene. But then her famous father the director John Huston had a rep for being a Hollywood predator. See his ties to the Black Dahlia murder. I loathe people who shrug these incidents off. “Hey it didn’t happen to me so the victim must have brought this on her/himself”
I haven’t watched this, although I have followed the reporting on it over the years. I don’t need to watch it. Everything I read, and every so-called defense (DARVO) that Allen has raised, is only too familiar to me, as is Dylan’s ongoing trauma and her attempts to process it.
I was sexually abused by my father when I was around the age Dylan was, and, as Woody did to Dylan, my father used to crawl into bed with me at night. I dissociated, deliberately “sending myself away” (that’s the way I put it to myself), so I could absent myself from what was happening while it was happening, and I repressed it afterwards. No one else knew (as far as I know, although I will always wonder why my mother decided, first, that I would share a room with my brother, and, second, that my bed should be moved to the more public “tv room.” ). My father also used me as a “substitute wife” in other ways throughout my childhood and adolescence, for emotional support (he used to tell me about what a “bad wife” my mother was, including sexually). When I reached adolescence, he was sexually suspicious and jealous of me, searching my bedroom at night for “the man I had hiding in my closet” and accusing me after a date (the only date I ever went on) of taking drugs and having sex (“why are your pupils dilated?”;”Why is your shirt unucked?”).
Not until I was in my 20s was I able to begin processing this trauma, and confronted my father, not about the sexual abuse, but about his violent behavior in the family when I was young. He was incensed that I would challenge him in any way, and began a smear campaign against me in the community in which I grew up and he still lived, telling everyone–from the postmistress to my high school drama teacher–what an ungrateful daughter I was, and garnering their sympathy. He also made sure to tell me he had done this, and that they all took his side.
It wasn’t until I was 40, when my father committed suicide and it was safe to do so, that I was able to process the sexual abuse fully. Unfortunately, by then the abuse scandals of the 80s and 90s had sullied the waters, and “false memory syndrome” was in ascendance. I don’t deny that memory is malleable, and that memories can be planted, but the message I got was that any repressed or partial memory must be false. For my experience to be invalidated by experts felt like a more general version of the invalidation I had suffered when my father smeared me to the community, counting on his status and reputation to protect him.
I see the attempts to invalidate Dylan and her experience, and to paint her as unhinged, and I cannot help but think I am seeing what I experienced. I recognize the tactics and the strategy employed by Allen and his flying monkeys, paid and unpaid. And because of my experience, I believe Dylan. I have all the evidence I need; although it’s circumstantial, it’s damning enough for me. In the court of my personal opinion, Allen is guilty.
I also believe it is necessary to speak the truth. But because of my experience, I am very careful to say only what I can be sure of. I have partial memories only, but those are detailed and vivid, and I am sure of them. What and how I remember match what psychologists say about memories of trauma/traumatic memories. We must tell our stories, and we must re-write the larger narratives. All victims of abuse–of all kinds–deserve no less.
I’m so sorry.????
I’m glad you know you and are able to process and share your story.
It is also a powerful story of how people who aren’t abused and don’t understand it, react to it.
I BELIEVE YOU
I was not sexually abused by my father who is an abuser has done a smear campaign about my family and I and continues to do so.
Anyone who talks shit about their kids is an instant red flag to me.
“Anyone who talks shit about their kids is an instant red flag to me” ???????? THIS
Thank you for sharing your story, and I’m no sorry all of those things happened to you. I hope you’re getting the help you need now, from people who believe and support you. ((Hugs))
I am so sorry
I’m so sorry!
I haven’t been impressed with many (male) artists with “troubling” personal lives.
Sometimes I wonder if they became famous just so they could be shielded by their fans and get a pass for being abusers by the culture at large. And when I look at their work and see that it’s nothing special, just another way for them to display their depravity in plain sight (I’m thinking of Marilyn Manson specifically now), I wonder about the fans.
What exactly are they defending? In the case of Allan and Manson, their depravity was on full display:
In nearly all of Allan’s film, there’s a relationship with a young woman/teen
And for Manson, he admitted in his autobiography some of the disgusting things he’d do to women.
So why do these people have so many fans who are ready to defend them at a moment’s notice? This actually terrifies me more than the abusers themselves.
But yes, I’ll watch the documentary. I’d been planning to subscribe to HBO Max for a while.
I havent read others’ responses, but want to contribute the trial notes link- evena glance illustrates just about everything you need to know https://www.huffpost.com/entry/heres-the-1993-woody-alle_b_4746866
I didn’t see the documentary but I will. I’m hip-deep in a COVID semester with 85 students. But I will say two things:
1. It’s not an accident that Ronan Farrow’s best reporting work has been exposing abusers. Chump Nation, we know what that signals. He’s either been abused or witnessed it first hand.
2. This may seem slightly off topic, but I have a similar reaction to the stories about the massacre of massage-parlor workers in Atlanta. It’s not just a hate crime if the killer targets Asian-Americans. It’s a hate crime if he targets WOMEN.
Sing it, sister! ✊
More than sexism. It’s MISOGYNY
The X is a patron of illicit massage parlors featuring Asian women. To me, these businesses are racist, misogynistic hate crimes in and of themselves. Any owner or patron of such has blood all over them.
I attended a lecture given by a formerly trafficked individual and it only fueled my disgust and hatred of these places.
I know a man who is retired military who is part of rescue missions to Southeast Asia to liberate trafficked women and girls.
I married the wrong guy, no doubt.
Absolutely. Thought that as soon as they said he didn’t have anything against Asians. If it is against women, any women, isn’t that hate? I don’t know if we qualify as a minority in numbers, but we certainly do in terms of the distribution of power. Men have hated women for centuries, because we do not act the way they want us to. Power, and control, and blame shifting. Obsession.
As an aside, I also find it disturbing when one minority acts against another. What is that, a contest for who gets to be lowest on the totem pole?
I’m just jumping out of my skin that the media is not talking about the human trafficking side of these “massage parlors”. And Atlanta is always in the top 5 cities for human trafficking. But I guess stories about deceived immigrant females who arrive under sponsors with horrific intentions don’t sell very well. It’s happening, and they need their stories brought to light.
My FW father (FWF) is not very physically able (he’s not dis-abled, but he has a number of health problems that preclude him from taking care of himself the way he used to) and so he’d go get pedicures to take care of his feet (neuropathy and he doesn’t have the manual dexterity to cut his own nails). He told me of a place he’d go that was just Asian women. He is so obtuse and thought these women loved their jobs and they always seemed happy and chatty. I had to educate him to the fact that probably a number of these women, if not all, are trafficked and are essentially slaves. He did not believe me. I pulled up a number of articles and read them to him.
There are these “massage parlors” in the town I live in. I assume they are practically everywhere these days. One is next to my dog-groomer’s shop and when I was going to drop my dog off, I sat in the car making a phone call because I was early. Out of the door of the massage parlor – at 8:50 AM!!!!! – walks an old guy. I’m sorry, but what old man needs a massage at 8:50 a.m.? The massage shop’s windows are all mirrored so you can’t see in. I knew something was fishy. As did other people in the community because there must have been so many calls to the police that that parlor and others got busted.
Disgusting. I just don’t know how people live with themselves when they “purchase the services of a sex slave.”
FWF went to visit some friends last week in another state and his assistant called me from the dinner saying how disgusting it was. One friend said that if he were my FWF (75) then he’d be trying to fuck 18-year-olds. Another friend (woman!) said, “why don’t you just hire prostitutes?” FWF’s assistant said to FWF later that if he hired prostitutes then assistant is out of there because the chances of that person being a trafficked human sex slave are very high and that’s some nasty shit to get into.
I just don’t understand people. I really don’t. I don’t understand how you could put your hands on another person in any type of abusive manner. How you could sexually abuse a child/adult person (or animal!), how you could buy sex with a person who in most circumstances is not providing this service because they enjoy it.
The world is a fucked up place.
Dom Nero’s comment, “something from within my gut……” is so telling about how I too feel on such a primal level. Tracy’s #6 hits the nail on the head.
I have come to believe that this stuff is sooooo buried within our psyches because it is so dark. I don’t like seeing this about myself and can only venture into these places with deep compassion for myself.
I have only come to see that part in me since dday since so much of what I have dealing with are my own illusions that I believed with all my heart, soul and mind about my marriage, family and spiritual life etc and how so much of that was bound up by my attachment to power – his power because he was the ‘bread winner’ and I was the sahm. (I gave up my career, finances, friends, activities – all else that defined me to be of service to ‘our’ family…..)
I have come to see how primal that ‘instinct’ is, if you will, in us as a species.
Attach to a power source and believe it no matter what!
“Thou shalt hath no other God before me!”
Well, I was one who thought I was intellectually above all that nonsense….I was a woman who was liberated because of Gloria Steinman and I was making a choice….Little did I know.
As Nero states, this is a ‘gut’ thing, not an intellectual thing and if there is one thing I have become more and more clear on is that my gut and intellect do not view the world the same way at all. Intellect is cool as a cucumber while my gut is screaming at top volume RED ALERT to just about anything that the wind blows across its path these days. 🙂
All of my illusions have been shattered and continue to be as I continue to peel away the onion skin of what makes me tick as a human being. I am seeing the hundreds of ways I am lying to myself on a regular basis!
I also think that this topic fits in perfectly with Friday’s topic. The listing of things that we now know are our sticky parts that adhere to ‘power’ outside of ourselves.
I can’t close without mentioning Jane Goodall and her study of chimps.
One, I think it was Frodo, who was a chimp psychopath amongst the group she observed. She knew from the beginning that he would become the alpha and that he would be a terror.
Her documentation of his rule is quite eye opening – all the female chimps put up with the abuse and flocked to him ignoring his much nicer brother…
During his time he raped his mother and sister – my memory isn’t very good – he might of even killed one of them????
When his rule ended, he was abandoned. That power that held the group to him vanished and the karma bus hit head on.
His kinder older brother was cared for lovingly by all and he was ignored and maybe even run off???? Again I can’t recall the details.
For those who don’t know Jane’s story – she was black-listed for telling the truth about what she was seeing within the chimp community. The ‘powers that be’ didn’t like hearing what she had to tell so she was deleted….
I am getting off topic but this one has be on a roll.
Thanks for waking me up Tracy.
Thanks Chump Nation for sharing your stories.
That’s an interesting observation you made… it begins to answer the question I had about fans and defenders.
I didn’t know that Jane was censored at all, wow!
Very interesting comments and I appreciate that you posted them.
Interesting comments about Jane Goodall. I’d like to read about that chimp story – do you have a link?
I’m sort of seeing that behavior mirrored in my FW father (FWF). People flocked to him because he had perceived power at his place of work. He was the deal-maker, the rain-maker, they called him the “whale” because he brought in big clients that made a lot of money for the firm. I am assuming that he was also a womanizer and possibly a sexual harasser within the company and I know they tried to get rid of him a number of times. He cheated on my mom a lot.
Now that he’s retired (I think they “retired him” versus him deciding he wanted to go), he doesn’t have the same power or charm. He’s tried to do business deals that have gone awry just so that he can “show” an old contact who is a major CEO that he’s still “got it.” (Deal was bad and busted up and should have been a huge embarrassment to FWF.) The women don’t flock to him like they used to. Not “good” ones, at least. Now he gets the bar-rat-whores who are just looking for some money. He doesn’t get the “executive business women” that he’d meet on trips around the world.
FWF has been sort-of exiled by his family. His wife (my mother) divorced him after 54 years because of his disrespect (among other things, but that was the underlying issue of it all). I stopped communicating with him for a while. He went on a bender in a state of mania (literally) and just lost his shit (for lack of a better phrase). He doesn’t have the respect that he used to. People don’t fear him like they used to. His family doesn’t kowtow to him like they used to. He’s near the end of his life and is grasping at things he once knew and had. It is pathetic, really.
What really sucks is how much power he was given in the first place. That people flock to the narcissist’s charm, that they get away with shitty behavior, that people are willing to set aside their own morals and value systems just to align with perceived power. Sigh. It appears to be what makes the world go ’round. The rest of my family and I are the anti-that. We are not impressed, can’t be impressed, and won’t participate in that big façade.
Bullshit and Lies,
The title of the book I read: ‘A Reason for Hope’. Written in 1999.
IMO it still contains stuff a lot of people do not want to acknowledge…Clearly a woman of vision, ahead of her times. Kinda like CL 🙂
Oh my goodness, how you describe FWF mirrors what I have just been reading about Frodo’s reign of power and subsequent decline while looking for a link for you….
The link here is one I just found and is an interview. It goes into his violent behavior and the stuff that Jane saw and reported that got her black-listed. Other links tell of his raping his mother? or sister?
I just found this on YouTube. Thanks for that website.
Don’t know if the narrator is reading from the book or what but gives some basic information about Frodo’s behavior and personality. I think the narrator has some details wrong (14-year-old child versus 14-month-old child)…
B and L
I agree he is merely reading what has been taken from other sources.
As I have stated, many of the descriptions of Frodo parallel with narcissist.
In this short clip many were mentioned – one of particular note was the one in regards to grooming. He demanded to be groomed yet never reciprocated…..THat is a huge red flag for narcissistic behavior…as CL has mentioned over and over and over again and just this week too.
I can’t even read this today. Too disgusting!
Anyone find this creepy? https://www.zimbio.com/photos/Bechet+Dumaine+Allen/XA_EXkgFrfU/Woody+Allen+Soon+Yi+Daughters+Beverly+Wilshire
Allen’s adopted daughters with Soon-Yi.
Yep. Neither child wants to be hugged or touched by him. One had her arms around herself, effectively blocking him from complete contact. The other was folding into herself trying to limit contact. Both have looks on their faces of dread when he’s touching them. He’s disgusting and anyone that supports this creep is equally disgusting. I’ve always thought he was a perv and I’ve never watched his movies. Blehggg.
Yuck!!!! Why is he even allowed to adopt!!!
Both daughters look tired, with circles under their eyes
Does he favor Bechet, who resembles Soon Yi, even though both daughters are adopted ? Time to go hurl in the bathroom..
Why the hell would Soon Yi adopt girls with this creep?
She knows better then anyone who he is.
Doesn’t speak well of her
Deep rooted trauma bonding. A possible explanation NOT an excuse
Those faces don’t say safe and secure.
It’s the direct narc smirk from Allen looking straight at the photographer while hugging his children that creeps me out. Major “duping delight” still going on strong there.
Woody Allen is creepy as hell, and I agree with your assessment of Manhattan. I have never understood the reverence for that movie. However, a few things they left out of the documentary:
Mia met Frank Sinatra when she was about the same age as Soon-Yi was when she started sleeping with Woody. Sinatra was 52 at the time. Mia calling Soon-Yi a “child” for doing what she herself did at the same age is disingenuous. By her own account, Mia continued to sleep with Sinatra, on and off, until his death, even though they were both married to other people. I don’t know whose son Ronan is. To me, he looks exactly like Mia. And his brilliance – he finished college at 16 – indicates to me that Woody is likely his dad. Neither Sinatra nor Mia were known for their brains. But that’s neither here nor there. The fact that Sinatra could have been his father, and Mia announced this to the world while Barbara Sinatra – the woman who was Frank’s wife when Ronan was conceived – was still living was absolutely disgraceful. Never mind Mia’s cheerful pocketing of child support from a man she was not sure was her child’s father. She did not respect her own relationship or anyone else’s.
And here’s the biggie: Mia mentions, in the film, that Andre Previn left her for her “best friend.” Andre Previn was indeed a piece of shit. He was married five times and by all accounts, cheated on every single one of his wives. However, when Mia met him, Previn was married to Mia’s best friend, Dory Previn, who was his writing partner as well. Mia and Andre were going to be in Europe at the same time for work, and Dory asked Mia to keep an eye on her husband. Which she did – by taking him to bed. The breakup of her marriage by her best friend sent Dory Previn on a spiral that ended in a mental institution. When she got out, she wrote an entire album about the betrayal, including a song about Mia called “Beware of Young Girls.”
Mia has/had 14 children. Two committed suicide. A third, Lark, died homeless, of AIDS. Lark was featured prominently in the documentary without ever mentioning her sad end. And I don’t know how any mother, particularly a wealthy one, allows their child to become homeless, much less allows the situation to continue when that child has a terminal illness. Another two of Mia’s children no longer speak to her. Not a great track record as a mother.
As shown in the documentary, Woody’s disturbing behavior toward Dylan was long-standing in nature. Mia saw it; her friends spoke of it. Yet she continued to allow him in her home, and to have access to her children. She even allowed Woody to be alone with Dylan after the Soon-yi affair was discovered, asking her 14-year-old son, Moses, to keep an eye on his sister. Asking a child to monitor his own father’s behavior is the height of irresponsibility.
Contrary to Mia’s portrayal of herself as a victim of Woody’s powerful publicity machine, Mia was represented by Alan Dershowitz, one of the most prominent lawyers in the country. Dershowitz offered to “make Dylan’s accusations go away” for a multi-million-dollar settlement. This is a matter of public record – Dershowitz himself has admitted it.
I believe Dylan. And I believe that Woody is creepy as hell. But I also believe that karma was on back order for a long time for Mia, and she got what she deserved. In other words, I trust that they BOTH suck. Mia was no kind of mother, selling out her children to maintain her personal and professional relationship with a powerful man, and acceding to Woody’s request that she adopt a “blond little girl” to keep his interest – a frankly horrifying request. And when she needed to manage her image, she interviewed Dylan again and again about an incredibly painful experience – something child experts strongly advise against in such cases. Mia’s repeated questions re-traumatized her child forcing her to relive, again and again, the worst thing that ever happened to her. It is evident from seeing the adult Dylan that she is a deeply damaged person. Obviously, what Woody did to her was monstrous. But Mia was also horrible to her own child, and made everything so much worse.
What Woody did was disgusting. But Mia fully abetted him, only becoming angry when her own relationship was threatened. Her façade as a loving mother was just another act for her. As I said, I trust that they BOTH suck.
I am saving my pity for those poor children, who had to endure the presence of and abuse by two horrible, selfish people as their role models for their entire childhood. For Dylan, that resulted in unimaginable tragedy.
Of note, Mia’s brother John Charles Villiers-Farrow (finally) got caught for sexually abusing two boys and went to prison for ten years. In his sixties so that means many decades of being a chickenhawk.
Lots of skeletons in the family closet. It breaks my heart that family dynamics and trauma tends to repeat itself. I wonder if J.C. molested Mia or their other siblings ?????????
All very good points. I’ve long felt the same. Although, I’m not a fan of equating what Woody did to Dylan (and what we he did to Soon Yi) and Mia’s failings as a parent. They may both be assholes, but one’s actions are not on par with another’s. There’s a reason why there are stronger laws against pedophiles than piss-poor parents.
I’d also like to point out that as young actress coming of age in Holloywood in the 1970s, I suspect Mia Farrow herself was well preyed on by men in the industry, including Sinatra and Allen. To some extent, she’s likely been a victim herself. This doesn’t justify her poor decisions as a parent, but it might contextualize some of her many many missteps.
I think she was certainly a victim of Sinatra. She was already in her 40s when she started with Allen.
The fact that Mia continued to sleep with Sinatra until his death, and joked about that in an interview in a national magazine while Sinatra’s widow was still alive seems like the kind of behavior we call out all the time here, and is only one of the reasons Mia Farrow disgusts me. Imagine poor Barbara Sinatra, having to bear the shame of the world not only knowing that her husband was sleeping with his ex-wife during their marriage, but also the media speculation as to whether or not her husband had fathered a child with her. And said ex-wife laughing at it like it was just one big, fat joke.
Woody is far, far worse than Mia. But I trust that they both suck.
I’ve always had my reservations about both of them. Ronan Farrow said that Allen was in therapy for his sick obsession with Dylan before he molested her. He would make Dylan suck his thumb and want to carry her around in his arms. Mia knew this.
Hey when your husband asks your kid to suck his thumb he should not be allowed into your home ! They never lived together anyway, Allen had his own place.
Frank Sinantras daughter maintains that her father had a vasectromy well before Ronan was conceived.
So you’re saying that Mia is to blame for her children committing suicide and one dying of AIDS in the bad old days? And that this is her karma? I will stop talking now because that fills me with rage.
I’m saying that two children having committed suicide may indicate a not-great upbringing. And it’s not Mia’s fault that Lark died of AIDS. I never said that, and if you think I did, you wildly misinterpreted what I wrote. It is Mia’s fault that Lark died homeless, on the street, without proper medical care. I don’t know how any mother allows that. That, to me, is cold as ice.
Please don’t get me wrong – what Woody did was way worse than anything Mia did. But Mia is also a terrible person, who allowed Woody to have access to Dylan even after she saw the Soon-Yi photos, even after she saw his sick behavior with Dylan. Those kids had two terrible parents. Woody was orders of magnitude worse than Mia, obviously. But Mia was no innocent. My heart breaks for all those children.
The karma I was referring to was having her husband sleep with the person she trusted most – just as she did to Dory Previn all those years ago. The children’s deaths were tragedies, not karma. And no one will ever know the extent to which Mia contributed to or ignored those tragedies. But it doesn’t make her a candidate for mother of the year. So maybe save your rage for someone who deserves it, and not someone who is simply pointing out other people’s atrocious behavior.
Children adopted at older ages from poor conditions often have RAD, which predisposes them to mental health issues.
Many mentally ill people refuse to live in apartments or shelters. Their paranoia and disruptive behavior gets them evicted every where they go. And sometimes they can’t live at home when they are adults because they are violent.
It can be a no win situation when a person has severe mental health issues and/or drug use.
This is a really important point, if blame is to be assigned to Mia Farrow re her children’s ultimate circumstances. It sure sounded like she was a shitty parent some of the time and made lots of mistakes. It’s also true that she adopted alot of kids with alot of existing problems and trauma, and may have done her best to make their lives better. Of course, we don’t know what really happened, but we do know that most of these kids came to her with years of health problems and trauma already inside them.
I think it’s safe to say that her dealings with men were terrible and dysfunctional, but that may or may not have anything to do with why her kids committed suicide.
Both of my children are in therapy and are statistically more likely to harm themselves than others. This is something I worry about and anyone who can judge a parent for a child’s suicide can shove off.
Unlike Tracy, I was wowed with Manhattan. I was in college at the time, and while I couldn’t fathom why someone who had so much on the ball like Tracy would have a relationship with this nebbish nerd like Alvie Singer (?), I was a student at a very liberal college and it was more of a, “Weird, but whatevs.” I was more entranced by the cinematography frankly to care about the relationship on the screen. Two things I will point out that are worth recognizing and that I did recognize at the time: (1) Tracy was far more mature than the Allen character (which is partly why I thought that this relationship was weird but okay was because she was portrayed as having agency, and, as pointed out in the documentary, SHE was the sexually aggressive one) ; and (2) her parents didn’t exist, ergo, no ramifications. And, s pointed out in the documentary, this is a constant theme in his movies, effectively absolving him of any criticism. These younger beautiful women are the ones that pursue HIM, which is probably why his films are so beloved by a bunch of men. Total identification and envy by his male fans.
I have always despised Roman Polanski for obvious reasons, and yet over the years when I would say, Oh, you enjoyed his movies? Well, I imagine the 13-year-old girl he anally assaulted doesn’t think twice about what a genius he is. I was labeled, guess what, a crazy feminist man hater. And then when Dylan came forward in 2014, I was gobsmacked at how anyone COULDN’T believe her. And yet, people who liked Woody Allen films (my friends and family) refused to boycott his movies because I was being, you guessed it, a crazy feminist man hater. I had one dear friend, who I love to bits, who, when people were cooing over “Blue Jasmine,” and I said something to the effect, the man is a child molester, how can you watch his movies, stood up and walked away from the table saying, I don’t want to listen to this shit. He has a daughter.
So I feel personally vindicated by this documentary. I also feel such profound sadness for Dylan and Mia. How easy it was for New York City to welcome the $$$ Allen’s movies provided for the city than to believe a 7-year-old child. How easy it was for the actors and actresses to act in his movies because they might win that elusive Oscar even after he married Previn and the issue of this man fucking his step-daughter was conveniently ignored. How hard it was and yet they did it, those rare men who came forward and had NO problem believing Dylan. How they put their careers on the line for her. And finally, how despicable were those people in the Farrow-Allen orbit as they willingly looked the other way because Allen held all the financial and professional cards, and, really, she was only seven. Nothing really happened. Look at the pictures of that Dylan. She’s tortured.
As I said to my friend AND my family: You won’t die if you don’t see another Allen or Polanski film. Just saying.
Finally, I have no idea why Mia Farrow always had to have a troop of children around her. But I will say this about her house. It was a home. It wasn’t some over-designed horror story featured in AD every three years. It was a home for a troop of children. For her children.
Like I said six years ago. I believe you, Dylan.
I never understood how people could keep listening to Michael Jackson music or put it in kid’s media.
Every time I would hear it at a dance I would think of his victims. This was after the first trial. I have no idea how anyone would be fine with it after the second.
Same – I cannot see Michael Jackson as anything other than a child molester.
I was always suspect of the accusations against Michael Jackson. I believe he had some weird proclivities and an odd lifestyle that left him vulnerable to molestation accusations by underhanded people trying to make a quick easy buck. Let’s face it being obscenely rich can make you a target. I think he may have had a penchant for hanging out with kids because he had his childhood taken away from him not sexual desire. I could be way off base but I don’t trust the media. Money and ratings could have been a big motivator for keeping the scandal going. Not saying he wasn’t a child molester just saying I have serious doubts.
MJ was and still is beloved. In his case, “the media” took a huge risk exposing him.
And he wouldn’t have been vulnerable to molestation accusations had he not been sleeping with children, showing him sex books full of little boys and paying off their parents with diamonds and houses for their child’s company.
I had no idea about the sex books and paying off parents. If true, well he certainly got his just desserts, but the parents that allowed their children to be in his company should have paid a price as well. None of these parents were innocent.
Idk, Stevie Wonder was something like 7 when he began performing. There have been a lot of child stars who didn’t need to sleep with little kids as adults.
I haven’t watched it. I know that the rich and powerful destroy the weak. I thought Woody was creepy later on in his life. It is never good to cover over abuse of children. The abusers of both sexes should be punished severely.
My XW would attack me physically and verbally and then record my reaction to prove I was the crazy, abusive one. Would record our phone calls. My lawyer and church elders finally told me to move out to protect me. My lawyer, when I filed for divorce, warmed me that a lot of women when you are divorcing them will try to provoke you or will claim they were abused. To be very, very careful around her. After that I was NEVER alone with her. Always had a friend with me when I had to go over to the house. I have seen so many wives of my friends use “abuse” as the reason they cheated. It makes it hard foe me to believe women when they claim abuse. Mia isn’t a good person for cheating, etc. But the poor children. My heart goes out to them. ????????????
What’s sad is I find it hard to believe when men tell me that all of their ex-girlfriends and wife were “crazy.”
The last person I dated was divorced and co-parenting young children. We were friends for about a year before entering into a relationship.
He had a lot of stories about how crazy the ex was and all the arguments they had. I found there to be some truth to what he said about her, but after transitioning from friend to girlfriend, I started to see her “side” of things that nah, he had serious issues as well.
Perhaps it’s a chicken or egg thing where you aren’t sure if one person is reacting to aggression. Or if they developed manipulative tactics to avoid fights.
Either way, I’m glad that I got out of it mostly unscathed. It was a lesson to avoid men who have dated or married a series of “crazy” women.
Not doubting your story, btw, just adding mine.
Agree with you. If they say all or most of their girlfriends/boyfriends, wives/husbands are crazy is a red flag ???? whether it is true or not. I am pretty open about my dating/marriage history is. But most definitely not all of them were crazy. Still friends with some 30+ years later.
My favourite Woody Allen quote comes from the late virtuoso clarinet player Buddy DeFranco. After going to see Allen play clarinet one night in New York DeFranco said: ‘That was the first time he’s ever made me laugh.’
Seriously, though, I watched the distressing documentary last week in one sitting. Allen is as guilty as sin and without doubt a textbook narcissist. A thoroughly unpleasant individual.
I am so sorry but not surprised.
My father (as far as I know) is not a sexual abuser but is a blatant nutty narcissistic abuser.
I told my mother two months ago how he had started acting Verbally abusively to my daughter.
My daughter came home that day upset because he had called her inappropriate names and I knew instantly she was telling the truth.
My father used to call me those names and my daughter is only 11.
I never told my daughter about the relationship I had with my father growing up. He also seemed to completely mellow over the span of 30 years. I thought it was just ME he hated and couldn’t handle as a kid there.
I called my mother. She denied it. She accused my of every shitty thing under the Sun. Plus disloyalty and disrespect etc. Said I made up the abuse in my own childhood. Then she said the one thing that crossed the line forever for me: she said it was my daughter who just “didn’t feel the love” or “see the good.”
That was fucking it. I said “that’s just wrong. You said the same crap about me to me 25 years ago. It was crap then and it’s crap now. My daughter isn’t a perfect kid, but she’s a wonderful kid that feel love from people and sees the good in them.”
My daughter heard her grandmother saying that and was done with her too. Forever it seems. She said “it’s a lie to act like my feelings aren’t real.” My girl is stronger than I was and I absolutely love her for it. I might have failed on so many other things but my girl can be honest, stand up to abuse and walk away from it. And she trusts me to have her back.
I don’t know WTF is wrong with these women that see their mate as little children needing to be protected instead of men who behaved monstrously who need to be held accountable for their actions and at THE VERY LEAST investigated and examined for what happened.
I BELIEVE YOU
Your step-father can go kick rocks. That’s the nicest way I can say that.
Regarding the Baby Scoop Era: if you haven’t already, read The Girls Who Went Away by Ann Fessler. It’s a very enlightening book based on interviews with women who placed their babies for adoption during that time period. I was adopted in 1963 and it helped me understand the social and cultural forces of the time, and that my 18 y.o. biological mother really had no choice but to give me up.
I’m a survivor of incest, and after doing much research, I’ve found that it always happens with complicity of the people around them, whether consciously or unconsciously. “Dark Side of the Inner Child” talked about a psychotherapy client who was abused and so thoroughly gaslighted as a child, that she developed the coping mechanism of “blocking” out the truth. This led her to block out the fact that her husband was abusing her children.
One of Moses’s articles talked about how Mia Farrow used to make them recite the story of how Woody Allen came to the house to molest Dylan, and about Mia’s past struggles with her own childhood abuse.
A possible explanation is that Mia was still traumatized by her own past, and she too developed a type of “fogging/blocking” mechanism to seeing the truth. This made it difficult for her children to feel safe and protected, and they may have all unconsciously chosen to not speak the unspeakable.
Incest does not happen in a vacuum. There are always accomplices, whether or not it was intentional or conscious.
Isabella, I don’t believe that Mia was an accomplice of any sort. Per the evidence presented in the documentary, Mia allowed/encouraged Dylan to speak about her experiences in a sensitive and appropriate way, and took her to a therapist to evaluate her and to help her heal. She acted promptly and supportively. She always believed Dylan and took numerous immediate, specific steps to protect her.
She was in the sense that she chose for a mate someone who was capable of sexually abusing her child. Like I said, it wasn’t a conscious choice. She didn’t recognize who he was because she was used to abusive patterns of behaviors from her childhood.
I had two friends that had stepfathers that sexually abused them when they were young and we were all in our early 20’s when they first spoke about it. One of my friend’s stepfather had exposed himself, she told her mother right away and the mother left him for a bit. Eventually they got back together and as they hugged, her stepfather shook his fist at my friend and she said I knew it was going to be hell. Of course, my friend was young but even then she was a forced to be reckoned with and he never acted inappropriately again. My other friend had it much worse. In fact, her step father had custody of her step brother and I believe he was molested as well. He went literally crazy and had to be placed in an mental institution for some time. What fried my ass was her mother, Mrs. High and Mighty. We talked my friend into telling her mother what happened and you know what, the mother stayed with this disgusting pedo predator for another year and never confronted him. They split amicably even though they had a very unhappy marriage. Mrs. High and Mighty is dead now but throughout the years I had to bite my tongue when she would get on her high horse about whatever.
Thoughts come up in response to what you have written above.
Fairy Tales are full of stories about wicked step-mothers in fact, I had one. My father’s second wife was a doozie and luckily all of us kids knew it so we could support one another.
No sexual abuse. It was all emotional. Now I know that the tactic she used was gaslighting. My father finally saw the light and divorced her.
I know in my own situation with the x there was a point after dday, when I was still totally immersed in the RIC, that I was willing to stand by him against our grown children. (No incest going on, just them reacting strongly to what he had done to us all – he is a long standing serial cheater so their entire lives were spent in a lie of sorts.)
YES I am a CHUMP but, to my credit – I see it now!!!!
So I can say I get it why your friends’ mothers turned a blind eye. Something in our core nature as Tracy said above – we side with those in power – it is an instinctual thing.
My children’s responses now are all different. I understand so much more due to all I have read here and it breaks my heart that two of my children don’t really ‘get it’ and are drawn to the power he has over them because he is their father and the one who looks strong due to no guilt etc while I am the ‘disturbed’ one because I can’t ‘get over it’ like he has….
I will close by stating that, at the moment, I can’t recall any fairy tales that depict evil step fathers….I know they have to exist…its just that none come to mind while I could list dozens about wicked step-mothers.
(Another side note. I remember watching a nature show years ago about prides of lions. When a young male usurps the old alpha male, he kills all the cubs in the pride. His instinct appears to be that of making sure ‘his line’ is the only one in his pride. It also appears to send a very strong message to all of the females….)
Your friends’ stories are common in the world of the abused. There is always a system that holds together the abuse, no matter what the people around them may say. Predators sense weakness and blindspots in others. They target women who let them get away with this.
Woody Allen has always set my alarms off. I have never watched any movies of his. When I found out about him grooming, molesting, and then .arguing his stepdaughter, my instinct about him was validated. I don’t need to see the documentary, and I won’t subject myself to it,, I believe his daughter and Mia. I just hope telling their story brings both some type of healing. I hope his stepdaughter/wife one day breaks out of his sick grasp and leaves and finds her own healing too.
Arguing was supposed to say marrying. Even autocorrect can’t grasp how sickening what he did was.
The narrative on these things indeed really need to change, and these kind of blogs need to go more mainstream!
Ironically, I only got convinced of all this after being with a narcissist myself. Perhaps a lot of people can’t believe this exists. And once you’ve been through it, you want the world to know about this hidden hideous behaviour.
My FW was also considered to be “talented”. It’s horrid how society, obsessed by success, considers that a free ticket for misbehaviour.
I’ve read that Allen has a cruel sense of humor with Soon-Yi. He will tell her that she is doing better living with him than when she was 4, and eating out of garbage cans in her home country as a street orphan.
Kids adopted at older ages often have Reactive Attachment Disorder. Which can be taken advantage of by a evil person.
She adopted 2 little girls with Allen, I hope those kids are ok. Their mother may not have the faculties to protect them.
Five of Mia’s ten adopted children may have suffered from RAD and two of those five committed suicide. ????????. The five I’m referring to were not adopted shortly after their births. Heartbreaking
Well, wonder why this sick couple didn’t adopt boys? You can bet the farm he is sexually abusing the new girls. The skeevy, predatory, perverted criminal continues his abuse. Child after child after child.
If you check out interviews with Soon-Yi, she’s never alone. Woody is hovering and interjecting in the interview. The only big, extensive interview she’s done is with a writer who doesn’t mention she’s a longtime friend of Woody’s until a few paragraphs in. I also checked out their kid’s Instagram profile. Most of this kid’s profile is talking about how great and how in love her parents are … so gross how long this abuse and worship of a clear narcissist gets dragged out.
Abusers groom not only their victims but their families, friends, coworkers, congregations, and broader communities.
Yes, there are some who are complicit, but I wouldn’t automatically blame one parent for abuse committed by the other.
The manipulations—here are the things that will happen to the other parent if you ever tell is a common one—are cruel and highly effective. The morally bankrupt have no compunctions at all about weaponizing a child’s love for a parent to further the abuse, and to hide it.
What stands out the most, though, is that the systems designed to protect the abused and contain the abuser so readily become yet another mechanism of abuse and injury. It’s a wonder that anyone is ever successfully prosecuted. Heck, until shockingly recently in our culture’s history, even multiply convicted sex offenders ended up with barely a slap on the wrist.
That we can even imagine that the problem of false allegations is anywhere near as widespread as actual sexual abuse is pretty much says it all.
Look up the stats on the percentage of men and women, both, who are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lifetimes. Sobering stuff.
Big, big problem. We have made shockingly little progress with it.
Glad you raised these issues, Cashmere. We all have to be on the lookout. I’ve been in the uncomfortable but unavoidable position of pointing out grooming on two occasions: once in a school, about a beloved teacher/union leader; and once to a close friend, about a close friend of her family.
I had to focus on the facts and trust my instincts. It helped me to make the distinction between allegations of abuse vs. reporting clear grooming behaviors. (Obviously, if I’d witnessed or heard about abuse, I would have taken immediate action as well.) At school, reporting put me on high alert and notified others to be aware, and it also meant that there was documentation. Whatever the teacher was or wasn’t doing, he was violating clear policies in place to protect students and teachers alike. In the case of my friend, it was a hard conversation, but she was grateful to hear my perspective and made sure to talk to her daughter and also to prevent her from being alone with the man, one of her oldest friends and someone she trusted implicitly. I could see the situation objectively – and being affectionate is one thing, but a grown man rubbing a 12 year old’s thigh in public as if it’s normal and fine, thereby giving her the message it’s ok and her family condones it – yikes. NOT ok, even if that was the extent of it and it was “harmless.” (Turns out he’d been trying to get her to go visit alone for a weekend, and I was so glad I acted quickly.)
I haven’t watched it yet and may not because I’m sure my ex husband is a pedophile, I just can’t prove it or I’d have him locked up.
But his “logic” and his “be logical” defense you posted here chilled me to the core. It sounds exactly like my ex husband. And Woody, we are logical, you didn’t become a pedophile at 57. You already were a pedophile, that’s just when someone finally told on you, you sick fuck.
Only a couple people believe me about my ex, the rest think it’s so illogical for the dumbest reasons. “He’s a good looking guy, why would he need to do that?” Um, why would he need to be attracted to children when he can have sex with grown up ladies? Because he’s a pedophile and is sexually attracted to children dipshit. All the grown up ladies in the world throwing themselves at him won’t change that.
Or “Why would he suddenly be attracted to children?” Suddenly?! It’s not sudden, he just hid it. He was always like this. Yes, I know that’s horrifying because he was around my child and children in my family and he was around your children but here’s his masturbation material about pretending to be shopping for a child’s bike with a how to on how to rape an 8 year old so for the love of God, STOP LETTING HIM AROUND YOUR CHILDREN!
The lies, of course I’m not recording how would I even do that? duh, I so stupid, bumbling idiot, nobody suspect me! So familiar. My ex lied to me about what kind of coffee he liked and what kind of cookies he liked. It blows my mind that people don’t understand the implications of that. There’s zero reason to lie about those things. His fake persona he used to go undetected was so detailed it included food preferences that were not his own. That’s some high level psychopath shit. But people shrug and say, what does it matter? It’s just coffee?
But just like disgusting Woody Allen he always has some plausible deniability he made up in his head and for some bizarre reason people buy it. I was a young teen when the whole Woody Allen screwing and marrying his daughter thing happened and I was horrified. People would rush to correct me, no it’s his STEP daughter and I was disgusted so many people rationalized and defended it. I’ve never watched a single one of his movies and never will. He’s a revolting incestuous pedophile rapist and deserves the worst of deaths. It disgusts me that so many have defended him for so long but so many people do. I’m seeing it with my ex. People would rather risk their children’s safety than make him feel bad. Literally. Makes me fucking sick.
With ya Sister.
Re-submitting because I think my last post got flagged because of words I used…
I believe you.
I have this vague wondering/inkling about my FW father’s interest in eradicating the “c h i l d p 0 * n problem.” How or why is that even on your radar? It is just a red flag to me. Do I know anything concrete? No. Do I have any proof? No.
All I know is that FWF has the emotional maturity of a 13-year-old boy, has addiction problems, and has very sketchy charges on his credit card.
I worry about my niece. Not because of my father because he lives in another state, but because of her mother/my SIL who is so self-absorbed that she seems to live on another planet. Here’s an example. Before my parents’ divorce, we were all in Hawaii on vacation a few years ago (parents, brother/wife/daughter, me/husband) and my mom arranged to have some family photos taken while we were there. Photographer was a friend of a friend so assumed to be a good guy. I had no reason to suspect he wasn’t a good guy, BUT…. at one point he was taking pictures of my niece because my mom and SIL wanted pictures of her as she grew up. At this point she was maybe 6? Photographer said “let’s go upstairs and get pictures on the balcony.” SIL was absolutely willing to let her 6-year-old daughter go upstairs in the house with a stranger. I’m like “WTF?!” No. You, stranger photographer man, are not going upstairs ALONE with my niece. I will be accompanying you and if she doesn’t want to have any more pictures taken then that’s that. I was just gobsmacked that my SIL would be okay with that.
Niece to this day hates being called “pretty” or “beautiful” – she is exhibiting some signals of trauma (could be Covid since she’s out of school?) that I clearly see but which are an annoyance to SIL (niece is pulling out her hair/bangs). Niece complains that SIL has people over and socializes (male friend of my brother but my brother has moved out of the house) but doesn’t let my niece have friends over (Covid excuse).
I am trying to spend more time with my niece now that my mother has had the vaccine. I would like it if she would come to my house more or if my husband and I could spend some time with her to just be living examples of what healthy relationships look like. We listen to her, engage with her, encourage her. Her mom/my SIL talks over her, is totally self-absorbed, and is a stress-bomb.
My ex was a pedophile. I am disgusted w/myself for tolerating and listening to his bizarre rape fantasies that he used to blurt out loud while having sex with me. When I first got together with him there was no inkling of that, but over the years his sexual demands got incrementally more fetishistic to the point where the only way he could be satisfied was to say out loud what he wished he was really doing rather than having sex w/a woman in her 50s. It wasn’t until after I kicked him out of our house after 16 years because I discovered the cheating (OW was 5 yrs older than him, btw), that I started telling a few close people about Ex’s stated desire to rape a 13 years old girl. I’m sorry if I am grossing anyone out here. Like the proverbial frog in the pot of boiling water, I listened to this psycho’s shit ass fantasies for 16 years until I basically normalized it somehow as just some edgy kink. But over the years I also started noticing that he was very handsy and touchy with my teen age nieces in a seemingly avuncular way and that he had what seemed like a crush on a ten year old daughter of our friends. But you know what I did???? I told my
self, OMG what is wrong with ME that I sexualize perfectly avuncular behavior. I told NO ONE of his proclivity. I was essentially, his ‘beard’ of normality for many years. Now, I never found proof of him “doing” anything or collecting illegal porn or anything though I tried, after he was gone. One thing I did do was send a non-anonymous (used my full name and address and phone) letter to the local prosecutors that he would be a likely person to investigate the way they do on internet sites. As far as I know nothing ever came of that, but I felt better after I did it.
I was never a Woody Allen fan but I, like many others, fell for the media spin that Mia Farrow was crazy and though I thought he was disgusting for cheating, and doing so with her daughter, I still thought nothing was ever proved. The documentary changed my mind. Mia Farrow comes across as kind, calm, and rational. Listening to Allen lying to her about taping her phone call was chilling. Just the fact that he went to court a mere 5 days after Farrow discovered the polaroids, to try to take her children away from her, showed what a vindictive person he is. And with all the talk of parental alienation, it’s stunning that no one in the media thought it was parental alienation when Allen stood at a podium minutes after the Yale report was released, and said, “I told my child that the forces of darkness will lose.” Yes, he called his children’s mother the forces of darkness. If you have time, google Judge Elliot Wilks decision and read all 33 pages. It’s a scathing repudiation of Woody Allen, explaining why the judge not only denied him custody but said what a good mother Mia Farrow was. And Woody Allen then walked AWAY from all those children and cut them out of his life. What could be more selfish? After he already destroyed their sense of safety and family by screwing their sister and dragging their mother through a custody trial in public.
He abused Dylan. He groomed Soon-Yi and had sex with her while the adoption petition for him to adopt Dylan and Moses was pending in court. Yes, while asking for court permission to adopt them, he was screwing their sister. His enormous PR machine has been very effective since now so many people think that the fact that he and Soon-Yi are still married means that all is well. “The heart wants what it wants.” I always thought that statement was disgusting.
Bitches Be Crazy, Australian style – this morning:
One night, whilst waiting in my bar seat for a jazz singer to come on stage, I heard an earful of caveman mentality. It was here in the States and a bunch of French rugby players were talking about what they would do to the young woman mixing their drinks. I didn’t let on that I understood every disgusting ???? word.
“Let’s talk about hysterical, scorned women for a moment.”
Yes, please talk more about this! How can we respond? What makes this slanderous term so dangerous and effective? Brings to mind one of the most depressing and unsettling books I’ve ever read: “The Woman Upstairs,” by Claire Messud (yes, title alludes to “Jayne Eyre”).
Anyway, looking forward to learning more about Tracy’s other project. Related to Baby Scoop is the preceding era of forced sterilization and legally backed incarceration /institutionalization of “feeble-minded” women – a/k/a dissidents, minorities, physically/mentally ill, intellectually disabled, “hysterical”… etc. Search for Carrie Buck US Supreme Court decision (1927) that affirmed states’ rights to carry out these “initiatives” to learn more.
Just some observations, don’t know if they’ll be helpful:
I try to separate the art from the artist. I love music, and some horrible people have made some beautiful music.. I enjoy the music, and try not to think about who made it, I suppose I want to believe that once made it has a life of its own. I am my father’s daughter, but I am not my father. He was there when I was created, but I made very different choices, and I don’t feel accountable for his.
If every man who ever had a false assumption, or cultural bias, or did something inappropriate with a woman or girl was outed, we probably would not be able to continue to co-exist. And some women are just as guilty of all things in the reverse direction.
If stats are right, one out of every three women has had a bad experience of some sexual type with some man. Think about that for a minute. What is the number for men? I don’t know, but I’m sure it is bad, too. Why are any of us ever sexually inappropriate? Bigger, scarier question.
Didn’t see the documentary, but have seen some interviews. I believed her, too. Just my gut talking. When a powerful, rich person is an abuser, they are generally smart enough to cover it up.
If you are a victim, and wish to tell, who are you going to tell, what will you tell exactly, and what do you expect to happen? I have had many bad things happen, and I had to weigh this question carefully, because sometimes I knew I would not be believed, sometimes I needed to keep my job, sometimes I needed to provide a safe space and food for my children. Some times you have to be realistic about what is likely to happen, and decide whether it is worth the cost. Often, in my life, it was not worth the cost. I paid a price each time, and most of the time there was no one who wanted to listen, or believe, or act.
When someone has unreasonable power over you, you can usually expect them to abuse it.
I’m not saying give up or give in. I am just saying this war is a long game, and many small battles will be lost along the way.
At age 38, my aunt was trying to figure out why she couldn’t have a child. This would have been in the late 60’s. She uncovered the fact that at age 14, she did not have an appendectomy. At age 13, she had run away to escape the abuse from her father and brother. When returned to home, she was labeled a problem girl. Her mother was allowed to have her sterilized. The sterilization was called an appendectomy.
Holy shit. I was just thinking when she mentioned the Baby Scoop era about a feature story I wrote about all these women here who were forced to give up their child because they were pregnant out of wedlock. I got dozens of letters and one of the editors at the paper I was working at even said she had a kid floating out there somewhere. It’s so hard to wrap my head around how horrible our society is to women. I’ve been bubbling with rage since I finished that docuseries. It’s seriously haunting.
The ole “blame the little Lolita” That book was required reading at my all girls prep school. Even back then, when I read it, I found it very disturbing.
I was hoping Chump Lady would write about this. I read that Esquire article last week too and it’s perfect — kind of thing more men should be writing and talking to each other about. What haunted me surprisingly more than the molestation itself are the stats about what happens to children and mothers who report an abusive father to a family court. I don’t have kids, I might want them and those stats had me so scared I’m afraid to even legally share custody with a man now. Like if I have kids, I want the presence of man to be completely conditional on me thinking he should be there. Because clearly even if he’s absolutely heinous the courts on top of not protecting my child may even take my child away from me completely! My jaw was on the floor seeing all the women who had their custody completely taken away for even making allegations against the father. Terrifying. I seriously spent the last few days trying to find out as much as I could about how Mindy Kaling does motherhood because she’s had two kids on her own with no identifiable father on purpose. It’s not an ideal situation that I ever envisioned for myself, but after taking in how truly patriarchal our society still is, I’m looking at that form of parenthood very seriously.
If anyone’s on the fence, this WaPo article about the Woody Allen archive is illuminating. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/i-read-decades-of-woody-allens-private-notes-hes-obsessed-with-teenage-girls/2018/01/04/f2701482-f03b-11e7-b3bf-ab90a706e175_story.html
May we teach our daughters to respond to lecherous men like Nati Abascal did ???? ⚽️
Hollywood scumbags, who cares?
a comment re: the baby scoop era adoptions, being molested by a step parent or close relative…
As an adoptee form that era, I would like to point out the number of women who got pregnant as a result of being sexually abused by a relative. That was the first thing I learned about my bio mother, even before i knew her name. It happened a lot more than people realize. In my case, it was by ether her father or brother.
After watching this I actually think Ronan looks A LOT like Mia’s dad. So perhaps he really isn’t Frank’s son.
Hollyweird Pedos…they need a shot of adrenochrome to function. Epstein Island is a real thing.
I remember a Vanity Fair article entitled “Mia’s Story” from almost 30 years ago. I just looked it up in the VF archives because this part stood out so vividly:
“One summer day in Connecticut, when Dylan was four and Woody was applying suntan lotion to her nude body, he alarmed Mia’s mother, actress Maureen O’Sullivan, and sister Tisa Farrow when he began rubbing his finger in the crack between her buttocks. Mia grabbed the lotion out of his hand, and O’Sullivan asked, “How do you want to be remembered by your children?” “As a good father,” Woody answered. “Well, that’s interesting,” O’Sullivan replied. “It only lasted a few seconds, but it was definitely weird,” says Tisa Farrow.”
The article, needless to say, was not pro-Allen.