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UBT: In Defense of Dating a Married Man

So here’s some MSN clickbait just begging to be Universal Bullshit Translated this morning. A fluffy little piece of sociopathy by Shannon Boodram, sexologist, entitled “In Defense of Dating a Married Man.”*

I often get emails from women involved with a married man or from men who are engaged in an affair that usually center around one question: “Am I a terrible person for doing this?”


And while there are too many variables and not enough jewels in my own crown to effectively answer this, I can answer the underlying inquiry: No, you are not abnormal or evil.

There are not enough rivets in the UBT’s quarter panels to effectively answer the underlying query “Are people who cheat empathy-deficient, self-gratifying, narcissistic nimrods?” There are too many variables. (Sociopath or generic asshole?)

Translation: Here’s some word salad to say, “Have at it! You’re not evil! You’re a gem!”

Ninety per cent of questions that centre around sex and love are a version of “Am I normal?,” because generally speaking, people do not want what satisfies them and their morals to be in direct conflict.

So, my answer to this popular query is always the same: If it occurs in nature, then yes, it is natural. And since extra-marital affairs have been in existence for just as long as the institution of marriage, I think it is time we stopped looking at affairs as heinous crimes and instead as a natural occurrences.

If it occurs in nature, then yes, it is natural. We should decriminalize Natural Things and stop looking at them as heinous crimes.

Homicide? Hey! Cain slew Abel. Brotherly assassination has existed as long as there have been brothers.

Arsenic? You find it in the ground. Mother Nature made arsenic, not Monsanto! So, yum! Sprinkle some on your breakfast cereal today. It’s natural.

Did you read this paragraph and want to strangle me? Those urges are natural. Stop looking at strangling flaky columnists with concertina wire as some sort of heinous crime. Ninety percent of people read crap every day and want to strangle someone. It’s okay. You’re not evil.

Did I lose you yet? Let’s hope not.

Kinda. The UBT was just so dazzled by your intellect.

The beauty in seeing things as natural vs. deviant is it allows you to exercise understanding. The more we understand and can identify patterns, the better we can cope and even evade the trauma associated with them.

It’s not your partner fucking other people that’s traumatic, it’s your inability to identify patterns. Avoid polka dots. And plaid.

Marriage was invented to legitimize offspring so that parents could pass down any assets acquired over their lifetime to heirs. In the beginning, marriage was essentially a business transaction designed to increase the power, legacy, wealth and reputation of a family name.

Historically, extra-marital affairs were common, permissible and especially in the male’s case, not seen by the courts as substantial grounds for divorce.

Bring back patriarchy!

It is really only within the past couple of generations that love has conquered all and become the primary driving force for tying the knot. And even though we in North America have adopted the Disney model, it doesn’t negate the fact that only 5 per cent of all mammals are monogamous and whether or not humans belong to this minority is still widely debated.

Was Mickey faithful to Minnie? Only 5 percent of all mice are monogamous. If Mickey was a player is still widely debated.

Everyone in North America (Canadians — I’m talking to YOU) models their marriages on Disney. Talking forest creatures. Dwarves. Birds who dress you.

That’s all very fine and good but it doesn’t negate the fact that Bambi’s mother dies. Deal.

Men produce more testosterone and less oxytocin than women. Testosterone is responsible for sex drive and also compels the host to seek out dopamine, a chemical released by risk-taking and new experiences. Oxytocin is the bonding chemical that cements loyalty through intimacy.

Cheating women? Hey, I guess you’re all just too damn butch. Shave your chin hairs and drop some oxy. Maybe you’ll stop cheating.

Thus, many men will not successfully conform to the monogamy model whether they have shared their last name or not. Similarly, a married man is a living example of the qualities women naturally seek out: Some women simply appreciate their attraction while respecting the family unit, others compete to have those qualities for themselves.

Women compete to have men, who are not designed to be faithful. Because… oxytocin. Bitches will just bond with anything.

On the flipside, not all women who date married men are in competition with the wife. Some prefer the mistress-relationship-model, since it provides them with the fun side of companionship minus any of the traditional obligations of partnership.

Duping chumps is fun. Plus it’s companionship without the whole messy introductions-to-people-in your-life thing.

In short, there will continue to be married men who find themselves seeking new intimate experiences and there will continue to be women who are interested in engaging with married men.

By “intimate experiences” I mean no-strings-attached sex.

Now for the happy part: Once you understand that affairs are driven by natural tendencies, you can stop personalizing the act and begin managing the possibilities.

Did you have to paternity test your children? Don’t take it personally.

Were you assuming monogamy and caught a nasty STD? Consider the possibilities!

I strongly believe that keeping an open dialogue with your partner about their temptations, desires and natural drives is very important. Not only can you help your partner effectively manage these natural urges through counsel, but you can also create healthy alternatives in the event that the desire is too strong to curb.

Cheating is natural. Don’t take it personally. However, natural impulses to cheat (caused by testosterone) can be effectively managed with conversations (not neutering!)

Betrayal, not compromise, is the biggest offense in any relationship, but if you don’t create an environment of open communication, you leave your partner to their own devices and vices.

Yes, the person who is not inclined to cheat must communicate clearly, otherwise you leave your partner to their vices. The vice partner cannot possibly be expected to speak up. Remain vigilant chumps! If they fuck around it’s because you failed to manage their urges with conversations!

So, I suggest some new rules that crush the fantasy in order to get to the heart of our human reality:

Women who engage with married men: Don’t be anyone’s dirty secret. If you prefer to date those who are attached to keep your own involvement at arm’s length, then you should have no qualm with the wife being aware of your intentions. If you fall for someone who is taken and they feel the same, demand that they open up their relationship—otherwise, you won’t be a part of it. Do not enter into any situation hoping for change; rather, create the change and then enter. Encourage opacity and know that it is possible to create a healthy arrangement, as opposed to a devious, secretive relationship.

Because every chumped wife is just dying to get your opinion on her marriage. Hey, OW, you’re an equal voting partner here! Don’t be someone’s dirty secret. If the wife won’t share, blow that marriage up so you can have Mr. Cheaterpants for yourself.

Men who seek affairs: If you are not cut out for the monogamous model, do not deceive anyone into believing you are. Of course, you’re allowed to change, but you must communicate this change with your partner. Desiring new experiences is understandable, while concealing this desire and act from your partner is not. You are an adult. You don’t have to hide your “dirty magazines” under the bed anymore. Come into your own and into the light where everyone can see you and most importantly, where you can stand to look at yourself.

Good advice. Except this ignores the fact that cheaters don’t cheat for sexual novelty (because testosterone), they cheat because they enjoy the deceit. Gaming the system to have an unfair advantage (cake) is what infidelity is about.

Sexual shame doesn’t make people cheat — entitlement does.

Women who are the victims of an affair: First step, realize that it’s not you, it’s not him, it’s nature. He is not evil, he may just lack discipline.

Whack him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper. Take away his squeaky toys. Crate him. It’s not you, it’s nature.

You can work through this by working together, but you can’t if you refuse to acknowledge that what your partner needs is understanding… not an exorcism.

You can work through this with a divorce summons, but you can’t begin until you acknowledge you’ve been chumped. Exorcise a fuckwit today.

This UBT ran previously.

*  Link now dead because, perhaps, I ridiculed it.

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Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • If things like this actually get published all I can say is Stop the World! I want to get off.

    • Agreed. I think it’s a lack of good writers that’s the problem. BTW what does “encourage opacity” really mean here?

      • Well, it’s not transparency so I guess keep that FW action on the down low? The writer is an idiot.

        • This is horrible mind bending crap. And it’s a huge trigger.

          I was propositioned by many men at work & elsewhere, and some were hot – but I never cheated. (And yes I like sex!)

          Fuck the author.

      • The only thing I can think of that “encourage opacity” means is a super passive aggressive way to say COVERUP.

      • Right? I think they transparency but are too stupid to know which word they actually mean.

  • Somehow as I read this, I kept seeing the scene in The Princess Bride with the Man in Black (CL) and Vizzini (Shannon Boodram) arguing which wine contains the deadly iocane powder. I’m dead ????

    • Any Princess Bride references are always very welcome! I was thinking, after reading the phrase “encourage opacity”:

      “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

      • I had the same thought! Encourage opacity—>opaque = not see through, impenetrable from light! I think she meant transparency but hey, Freudian slip!

      • Ha! Chump that I am, when I read that I thought to myself that opacity meant just the opposite of what she was going for but then figured I must have had it wrong. Yes, still working on fixing my picker.

  • If it occurs in nature it’s ok?

    That’s one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard.

    In nature males kill children that aren’t theirs so they can have their own with the mother and fish eat each other and each others eggs all the time.

    Is that how we want to roll?


    • And historically people killed each other over perceived slights and men invaded villages and raped the women.

      Is that OK because…..nature?

      Geez…..what a moron.

    • Kim, she did not say that it is ok. She said that it is natural. That’s a distinction that makes a huge difference. Having been chumped myself, I am not an advocate. I think the larger point is this: just because it is natural, that doesn’t mean that you have to engage. It also means that if you choose to engage, you also have the choice to be honest. I personally don’t see anything wrong with what she said, because the larger point being made is about honesty. No person is perfect. No marriage is perfect. With humans involved, there will always be a possibility of breakdown. BUT, we all get to choose our actions. Cheaters choose to cheat and then they choose to lie about the cheating, which is really what causes chumps the most outage. If that were not the case, many chumps would stay married to people who, by their own admission, are basically awful. And I’m willing to bet that most didn’t turn awful just because they cheated. They were already that way. That’s how I see it. With time and some perspective, I’ve come to think of my DDay as a blessing.

      • So much agree!

        When it comes to acceptation, I think it’s more about gradations of narcissism. If your partner is a full-on narcissist, it’s pretty much hell living with him/her, even if there is no cheating involved (or you haven’t just found out about it yet). On the other hand, “ordinary” people may cheat, because of weak moments, weaknesses in character, relationship difficulties, etc. In these cases I think there might be some “work” to be done and openness could perhaps help.

        In the same time, what I really don’t like about these kind of arguments is that cheating does seem to slide into normalcy. Even if it is normalcy, it’s not good normalcy!

        • Giraffy – I was subjected to narcissistic abuse for many years. Gaslighting, subtle digs and insults, mind games, and just a whole host of fuckery, overall. The cheating was the last straw for me (Thank God!), but I am glad that it pushed me to leave that relationship. I don’t think that all cheaters are narcissists, but I’m pretty sure that most narcissists are cheaters. Those of us who were involved with narcissists had bigger problems than being cheated on and/or left for the affair partner.

        • Yes, cancer is normal too, but yet we fight it.

          There are many commonalities of cancer and adultery in terms of its affect on the chump. The longer it goes undetected the worse the damage will be to the victim.

          • OntheOtherSide, sorry to hear what you had to go through 🙁

            I am on this platform because I’ve had a relationship with a narcissist too. I don’t know up to which extent he cheated on me, but let’s say he switched VERY quickly to another partner when our it ended, making me wonder whether it had already started before…

            Strangely it was only this confrontation that made me really give up on him and go no contact. I managed to create excuses for all his other kinds of sleazy behaviour, but I guess cheating is an objective “no”..

            And yes you are probably right most narcissists are cheaters! (However I was raised by quite a narcissist parent who was however faithful in that sense and it took me a long time to connect the two..)

            • Giraffy – I’m sorry that you had that experience, as well. Glad that you were able to get out. I understand how hard that is to do.

          • I’m pretty sure that my cancer was caused by the constant elevation in circulating catecholamines resulting from the mind fuckery that went on in my home to cover up the cheating — and the financial malfeasance. Also sleep disorders, hypertension and diabetes. All stress-related.

            • Yep, I am sure what I went through was part of my blood sugar issue that developed.

              These folks are despicable in the damage they cause to others.

              • The Ex-Mrs. Sparkly Pants, Susie Lee, that’s incredible.. It just amazes me up to which point emotional abuse can be as least as bad as physical abuse – and in your cases it became physical abuse.

                My narc was in my life for a relatively short period, but it was already pretty traumatizing to me. Cannot imagine what it must have been like on the long term…

      • The difference is we, as humans, have cognitive ability far superior to animals. Actually, it’s not even comparable, it’s like comparing apples to an F-22 Raptor. Regardless of whether something is “natural” in the animal kingdom, humans have the ability to reason, unlike animals who rely purely in instinct.

        • Gen, but wouldn’t you say that narcissist have a cognitive ability a bit below human average? 😀 I often get the impression they are subhumans with the conscience of a an angry toad ^^

          • I’ll agree with the lack of conscience part, but Narcissists are often brighter than average — they have to be to outwit intelligent chumps and keep that double life going.

            • I agree. I never thought of my fw as stupid. I still can’t wrap my mind around the fact that he started screwing his direct report, right amongst all the lawsuits being leveled against Police Departments at that time.

              I mean how on earth did he think he would get away with it? If she had at least been married, he might have had some leverage against her, but nope divorced, living at the poverty line, and he fucked her non stop until someone dropped a dime. I am sure she offered NSA sex to get control of his dick, but I just thought he was smarter than that.

              The only reason he wasn’t fired was he had (with my help) been a huge part of getting the mayor elected. So political favor. He did get busted and put back out on patrol, and everyone knew why. I will say for the mayor, he didn’t try to sugar coat it. He was also dealing with another captain who was fucking a police woman.

              In the other case the police officer went crawling back to his wife because the police woman didn’t want him. I don’t know if they are still together or not, but I bet if they are she says “jump” and he says “How High”. So if you are out there Bonnie, more power to you, keep his balls tightly tied to his thighs.

            • Disagree. They don’t outwit is, they take advantage of our trust. That takes ruthlessness, not a high IQ. Pulling off a lie doesn’t take much skill if you are a practiced liar and somebody trusts you. Narcs have been lying since childhood, so they have lots of experience. I suspect the myth that narcs are smart was probably spread by narcs.

              For example, as a child, my narc ex started telling his parents he had a sleepwalking problem to get away with taking cookies at night. He got the idea from a cartoon. Eventually, he had lied himself right into believing he was a sleepwalker. Narcs lie so much that they can’t sort out fact from fiction. They often believe their own lies, or at least partially. They might sprinkle enough truth in a lie that they can convince themselves it’s all true, thus telling it with complete conviction. So it’s both a disability and a superability, depending in how you look at it. At any rate, the key to their success at getting away lying and cheating is practice, luck, and finding a loving, trusting chump to exploit.

              Cheaters also have another advantage which has nothing to do with brains- people are reluctant to inform on them. They reason away their moral cowardice as; “It’s none of my business.” Almost everyone at the jerk’s work knew he was cheating, because he didn’t even try to hide it, but nobody said anything, not even his boss. Some people would openly sneer at him and his ho as they brazenly left work together, but they were never reported to upper management and lower management didn’t care. I didn’t know any of those people, so none of them felt a need to inform me either. But the asshat was dumb enough to flaunt his mistress at places where people I knew went, and lo and behold, one day somebody I knew saw them. These two were so brainless and full of disgusting arrogance that that they would leave love notes under each other’s keyboards, doing it in full view of coworkers. The longer luck holds, the more a stupid person is liable to think it’s actually skill. Then BOOM! Luck runs out. Smart people know relying on sheer dumb luck is not a sound strategy, and they don’t confuse it with skill or attribute it to their intelligence.

              We chumps are at a disadvantage in this heartless, morally bankrupt world because we bond, trust and give the benefit of the doubt. What sucks most for me is the fact that cheaters take that priceless ability to trust away from us. They steal our innocence. Yet it is not in our nature to be cynical and heartless like they are. So we become confused and don’t know who we are anymore in the wake of discovery. This is one of the many reasons why cheating is abuse.

              • Agree with folks not wanting to expose them.

                In my fw’s case, many had to know he was screwing around, but he was never reported, until someone dropped a dime. I never knew who it was. It wasn’t me, as I had no idea. After I talked to my daughter in law about the things we have been going through now and in the past, I told her that someone had ratted him out, and I don’t know why or who.

                Note: he had gone before the town counsel and petitioned for a raise for the whore, who was his employee, they granted it and I am pretty sure they didn’t know, or they not only wouldn’t have approved the raise, they wouldn’t have let him petition for her. I wouldn’t even have know this, except one of the city councilmen and his wife came by my house after the fw left me for the whore and told me what happened. They were kind, and of course they were also covering their honey’s because if they knew (which I don’t think they did) they could lose their positions. The counsel wanted him fired, but the mayor demoted him and put him back out on the street.

                I also found out he retired early, which surprised me, because he loved his job, but he may have made such a mess of his job that it pushed him out. Or the mayor pushed him out. I will never know, as he would have never admitted that to anyone. My guess is he told my son, he retired early because he wanted to.

                She theorized that some woman who worked for the city or maybe more than one called in a complaint because they were sitting there thinking, wait a minute where is my raise, she got one for fucking her boss and I got nothing. By the way if that is what happened they had every right to be pissed. That is an obvious hostile working environment.

                But, after all this time, that makes sense to me. Otherwise why didn’t someone report it before. I knew something went down because he got really nasty, really fast and he pretty much was walking around looking like a sweaty ball of nerves.

                This was long ago, but the ex died in January, then my brother and his wife died in Feb of different causes. It has been a tough year for our families, and the daughter in law and I just sat and talked and talked through all the events of the years gone by. Good and bad.

              • OHFSS, absolutely spot on.
                My ex fuckwit smirked as he said “Chumpnomore6 truss me”,????????????????

              • Yes narcissisme can be intellectually very bright (mine was, which made me look up to him – bad start to begin with). But it was such an epiphany that I found out that his talent had no relation to his emotional intelligence. As CL put in an other article I think, they oscillate between 3 stages: charm, rage and self-pity. That’s pretty primitive in my opinion.

                I also believe sharks and crocodiles etc to be very intelligent (just think about their hunting tactics) but their conscience is another story 🙂

              • “Narcs lie so much that they can’t sort out fact from fiction. They often believe their own lies, or at least partially. They might sprinkle enough truth in a lie that they can convince themselves it’s all true, thus telling it with complete conviction. So it’s both a disability and a superability, depending in how you look at it.”

                OMG, yes!

                Just recently I have been on business calls with my FW father (FWF) where I hear him tell outright lies, which I then go back and clarify to the third party on the call or involved in the deal.

                FWF: I’m going to make a million dollars this year!
                B&L: That is not an accurate statement, let me clarify….

                FWF: I could buy this house if I wanted to!
                B&L: Your options are A, B, or C – since options A and B are not going to be viable options, you are left with C. Since you refuse to do C, then the answer is NO, you cannot afford to buy this house.

                FWF: My estate is worth $X amount of money!
                B&L: No, that is not correct. You are looking at the numbers wrong and here’s how/why…

                I’m running around trying to clean up his messes that he gets into financially because he lies and he believes his lies so he passes them on with such conviction that they sound like the truth. I knew he was a bullshitter, but until the past couple of years I didn’t realize how much he just outright LIES. All. The. Time.

                What really bothers me is that people either can’t see through it or they see it but take advantage. It makes me sick that people go through and try to bail him out of the shithole of financial trouble that he got himself into. This man needs to have some fucking consequences in his life and I wish people would stop trying to cover for him!!!!


                And then there are the affairs. So many affairs. So many “friends” of his or of the family who knew and didn’t say anything. Weasily assholes.

          • Giraffy . I do think it gradually creeps on many of us. Most of us ae Chumps simply because we trusted them, and we looked past their flaws because that is what you do when married. We just didn’t know what they were capable of.

            Then after the discard we start to look back and see the truth. I know we shouldn’t try to unravel their crazy skein, but I think it is important to unravel our own and try as best we can to accept reality. I will never know the whole truth, but I am confident I have pieced together enough of it to know that he was always a selfish person, and he was never going to put anyone above himself. Not me, not his son; and not even his whore. She found that out quickly after they married.

            • “We didn’t know what they were capable of”. Yes, it indeed exceeds the imagination, doesn’t it.

              When I met my ex I felt very insecure with him. And this although he seemed lovely at the time (lovebombing, now I know), there was something off that I just couldn’t pinpoint. When I talked about it to a therapist, she basically encouraged me to have more faith and go for it, and be mild on his ambiguous behavior. Basically it made me set for chumpiness.

              It was only when I stepped out of it when I realized I had completely lost myself.

              Whenever I have doubts and think of how he might be better with the woman he got pregnant just months after telling me he wanted a baby with me, I just think about the fact that he always made me feel like replacable crap and never cared a tiny bit about my wellbeing. That is enough already. We are not compatible, in the mildest case. And the “lucky” OW will now will have to deal with him for all her life.

              • It is so damaging to endure the treatment they dole out to un in the discard.

                I married my ex when we were both 18. I adored him, I honestly suspected he did some tings when he was young, but he seemed to mature and from his actions was acting the part of a happy married man.

                Now I don’t know if he was ever faithful. I got several stores out of him, who knows the truth. He told my daughter in law not long after we split that Susie was attractive, and sex was never an issue between us, but that he saw the rampant screwing around by other police officers and he wanted his. So he started messing around.

                He only admitted to screwing the last whore for two years, (he tried so hard to protect her (snicker) chaste image) but I suspect now that she had been in his life for at least half our marriage. Again who knows. I do know she had a reputation of screwing with many married men.

                In my case time has passed, and I am on CL due to his blowing up his relationship with our son. But yes the last whore in this case “won” the sparkly turd, and I am well aware of the hell they rained down on each other. So if they found thrills in that, well I say more power to them.

                I am just so grateful, I have led a calm secure life in the ensuing years. I have been fortunate to excel in my career, and have a long term loving husband, (still going strong). I did love my ex, and I wish he had stayed a faithful husband, but as he couldn’t or wouldn’t I am glad he left. I just wish he had left sooner, and hadn’t felt the need to try to destroy me in the process.

                Most Chumps will go on to have happy lives, but some scars will likely remain.

                If we can help newly minted Chumps then I think that is great that CL has given us the forum to do that.

        • Gen, in terms of superior intellect and ability to reason, that’s not even necessary. Many animals have societal rules and everyone abides by them to be part of the group. You break the rules, whether because you’re dumb or just a cheater (poaching mates, stealing food, whatever), you’re out. It happens in nature, but if you’re caught there are consequences. Apes drive away or kill those that can’t follow the group rules. Human civil society is even easier because our rules are in writing for all to see. For example, a marriage contact. You don’t have to reason; you’re told what the rules are. Don’t want to follow the rules? Ok, buh-bye. Follow your nature, just don’t expect to be a part of my group anymore.

          Human civil society and animal societies function because of trust. And the author kind of says that, although in a really apologist tone. If Author hadn’t failed to provide any sort of useful context whatsoever, I’d be ok with the assertion that cheating (and not just sexual infidelity) is “natural.” It’s the lies and manipulation that are “evil.” And I think we’ve thoroughly covered that natural does not equal good, or good for me, or good for the social construct.

    • And lions and other powerful animals kill and fight to the death when another male tries to take their female. Yet in the human world the AP’s 99% of the time don’t have the balls to go face the husband. Cowards is all they are.

    • The whole testosterone COMPELS men to cheat was another really poor argument. Humans of either sex produce testosterone in varying amounts. Humans also engage in a huge variety of activities that encourage the release of dopamine. Personally, I do yoga or take an exhilarating bike ride when I need a hit of dopamine. But men have no other options than getting their dick wet with some strange. Mmmkay

      • Yes – if testosterone compels men to do anything, it’s to have sex. If that’s all it is, his partner should be perfectly acceptable. It’s just not logical to say testosterone compels men to cheat.

        • Bingo!
          Cheaters are compelled to cheat by the enjoyment they get from duping and covertly humiliating their partners. That’s about hostility, entitlement and dishonesty, not hormones.

          If cheating was just about sex drive, EAs wouldn’t exist. My cheater continued to see his bimbo long after she was bored with fucking him and just fucked new guys instead. EAs exist, but aren’t about the emotions cheaters tell themselves they’re feeling so they can excuse their actions; love, happiness, bla bla bla.

      • Plus plenty of women cheat, too. So many bullshit arguments floating around these days, and they only function if you happen to be in that tunnel-vision mindset which lets you ignore the mountains of surrounding evidence because somebody is using the smart words real good.

    • Doesn’t the preying mantis kill the male after she mates? Maybe something we all should have considered.

        • the praying mantis female only does what is NATURAL

          therefore only those males who are not enlightened & secure enough in themselves fail to see this…oh well. Guess it’s the best we can do since

          Nature is always 100% right and cannot even be questioned…

    • How about females in the animal kingdom who kill the males they mate with?

      I mean, that happens in nature….right? So it is okay?

      Screw laws of man…. I live by laws of nature, muahahahhhhaaaaaa!

      (Just kidding, of course….sort of….maybe – ok, I’m not a murderer so I’m just making a point.)

    • Hmm. In nature, the mamma bear will tear apart anything that threatens her young. This is getting more appealing by the second. This NATURE THING!

  • “…demand that they open up their relationship—otherwise, you won’t be a part of it.

    I just loved this part! The a fair partner is going to step in notify the wife that they’re cheating and then demand that the wife involve herself in an open relationship. Otherwise the cheater, the affair partner is going to not choose to be a part of this marriage.

    News flash! They’re not a part of the marriage. They’re a f****** cheater. They are the pick pocket, the stalker in the alley, they are the monster under the bed.

    There’s no rationalizing this. The only hope is that the author of this at some point gets into a deeply committed relationship where she is totally vulnerable to the person that she’s in love with. And then that he screws someone else. That he lies about it and that she is devastated. But that won’t happen because like you said she’s a sociopath. these people are just wired different. Or maybe their wires don’t reach the right parts but it’s infuriating. And fortunately it is grounds for divorce.

    • I agree 100%. Terrible even reading the article.
      Brings back devastating memories. ????

        • I also somehow read in that line (my own UBT translation): “Concubinage! Why not bring it back? It’s not like it’s led to the misery and oppression of countless women throughout history!”

          Ugh…. ????????‍♀️

    • I thought the exact same thing. The writer is merely someone too young to have been a chump yet. I almost hope for people like this to get chumped in the worst way, just so they can regret writing such damaging and ignorant articles.

      • Yep, I don’t deny or have any issue with wanting OW/OM to get what they gave. The whore in my case got it back in spades. She deserved it. That wonderfully guy she was fucking, went back to his natural ways once they married. If anything he was even worse.

        She wanted my life, she got it.

        • Susie Lee.

          Thank you for saying this . Ive always felt that the OW deserved everything she had coming.

          The OW thought he was so hard done by and unhappy … well hes no longer Mr Wonderful ( multiple jobs, affairs,debt etc) so I wonder if she thinks hes so amazing now.

          • I am glad your fw and by extension the OW got what they wanted. The reality is they will generally self destruct, we just have to step out of the line of fire. And, it will always be someone else’s fault.

            Sounds like your ex’s life went down about the same as my ex. I have said it before; she deserved him way more than I did. I just didn’t realize it at the time it happened.

  • Polish poet Wislawa Szymborska:

    In Praise of Self-Deprecation

    The buzzard has nothing to fault himself with.
    Scruples are alien to the black panther.
    Piranhas do not doubt the rightness of their actions
    The rattlesnake approves of himself without reservation

    The self-critical jackal does not exist.
    The locust, alligator, trichina, horsefly
    live as they live and are glad of it.

    The killer whale’s heart weighs one hundred kilos,
    but in other respcts it is light

    There is nothing more animal-like than a clear conscience, on this
    the third planet of the Sun.

    • I love this site so much. Not just support and validation, but haiku, Wislawa Szymborska quotes, and snark!

      There was a thread a while ago about … was it the pompous poetry of narcs? I’ll go off on a little tangent here.

      I’m a poet and teach the craft, and I think part of what I love about poetry is that it is “after all, a place for the genuine.” The last two dudes I dated thought they were pretty brilliant and charming because they wrote songs and poems. I should have trusted my instincts! They wrote bad poems full of self-contradictions, overblown sentimentality and vapid, clichéd praise. I dismissed that as simply not being experienced writers. But believe me, they knew how their poet-personas worked on many a woman. When I think of them trying it on me now, ha!! Gotta laugh! I wasn’t there for that, I was there for the trauma-bonding!

      I’ve tended to give a lot of weight to men who could talk about feelings or interesting concepts or recovery. I haven’t paid enough attention to how much their words (or their poems) revealed about their consciences. I should have known: with my students, their poems reflect exactly how much sincere emotional engagement they have with the world and how much effort they bring the opportunity to sit down and try to express that to another human being.

      Every now and then I get a narc-ish young person who hands me their 100-page manuscript full of shallow often pretentious wordspew and they ask for my opinion. They get my gentle teacherly opinion about the ways they’re deflecting, objectifying, saying nothing with a lot of wordsalad or spouting platitudes. They will ignore it all, dismiss me because I didn’t recognize their genius, and likely self-publish within the next couple of years.

      Often they know where to put all the commas. They don’t get that the whole point is to be genuine. Maybe they think they are genuine?

      If there’s anything that this site teaches me, is that outside the page I can’t teach another person the *desire* to be genuine, or to have antennae for honesty. For me, openness and being real are what a relationship (and a poem) is about — I thought it was about that for everyone. I was a chump because I thought the people I picked were just bad at relating the way a genuine but untrained beginning writer writes poems with clichés when they start. It took me forever to realize how many people fake genuineness to get other things. (And I guess why did I still date them if I thought they were bad at relating is a topic for reflection!)

      Anyway, animals don’t write poems either, if we’re using them for comparison.

      I’ve always liked this Szymborksa poem. It’s lovely to be here in the company of people who really do value speaking from the heart!

    • The overwrought description of their “positive f*ck buddy” relationship was eye roll inducing. How evolved of them to engage in the process of “positive boundary crossing” Hard pass

      • Right? It was all a bit too chipper and felt like a sales pitch for a time share.

        Well, now that they are married, had a kid and bought a house we’ll to wait and see how either of them feel about those extra people in their lives and of course, their child’s life.

        • Oh, now I get it.
          They know nothing yet.
          I was young snd full of hope- discussing future with my husband- our wants needs expectations- everything under the sun. It looked like our views and goals were similar so I went for it.
          Flash news: it was real for me and a joke for my husband.
          For a narc- the mask & game = life and smarter they are- the longer they can keep it on.

          I ended up depressed, with a 0 self esteem, heartbroken ????.

          Poly marriages are also based on honesty, traditional marriages are based on honesty.

          Cheating = lies.

    • Oh boy. I suppose that bilge answers the question, can two narcissists have a relationship with each other. ????????. Sort of….

      I wouldn’t mind her writing about her ‘ relationship’ (although definitely *not* my cup of tea), to each his own, etc, etc, if she hadn’t previously written that pseodo glop eviscerated by the UBT, where the central premise is anyone who doesn’t think (I use the term loosely) like her is “just not evolved, daahling”.

      The idea that any adult would actually want to be in a committed, monogamous relationship is clearly something she cannot grasp.

      And really, all that blather about what’s ‘natural’, because animals do it? She really is quite stupid, animals mate with their mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers too – in human circles, that’s incest. But hey, animals go, so let’s do that too! ????????

      I see from the link VH posted, she and her boy toy are now married, (why??) if the marriage tie means so little to both of them, why bother? I suppose it was the pretty dress and all the lovely presents…. what a great foundation.

      She’s also pregnant. I feel sorry for the poor little baby with two raging narcs as parents.

      I wonder how she’ll react if boytoy Jared comes home and says, “hey, I’ve found someone who’s a better fit, bye”. Somehow I doubt she’ll be blathering about “well, he needs to grow”. Silly bint.

      • “Silly bint” ???? Another thing I love about this international community-learning new words and expressions.

        • “Bint” means “daughter of” in Arabic. “Ibn” means “son of”.

          So, Bint Moniet El Nefous means “daughter of Moniet El Nefous” ; Ibn Moniet El Nefous means “son of Moniet El Nefous”. Incidentally, Moniet el Nefous was a mare.

          • ”. Incidentally, Moniet el Nefous was a mare”. ????????

            In the UK, where I’m from, ‘bint’ derogitarily means “bit on the side”. ????

            I believe it comes from the days of occupation of Egypt by us. ????

    • It’s pretty terrible, by her own admission. He cheats on her constantly, so she doubles down on people (women) learning how not to be jealous.

    • If you look at their pictures and see his facial expressions, it looks like he’s not as into her as she is into him. It is just written on his face. He gets his cake so there’s some feeling of positive regard there because he gets to play “family life” but also gets to fuck around outside. But the looks on his face in all of those pictures to me shows a different story than what the words say.

  • ow usually think they are better than chumps, or delude themselves. realistically they have to agree with the fuckwits they are with. You definitely have issues if you are a ow. you can kid yourself, have you noticed that ow are always victims, or tell terrible lies. God knows why their not fond of contraception so who knows what sti(s) they have, nevermind hiv. I bet they always tell the man that the man is fantastic at sex, course he is,
    My exs ow, have numerous sti, lied about been abused as a child. thought my ex was wonderful, is he fuck, threatened to kill me, several times, throw acid on my face. hung outside schools, outside my house.
    she actually sexually abused me, months later asked me to feel sorry for her. Ex said he liked her because she didnt want her own kids. she is always the victim nevermind the crap she puts you though.

    • I had the unexpected and rather unwelcomed opportunity to talk with the OW after discovery. She lied about everything, things that were even small. She denied everything. Then played victim when I still kept on the heat and made it clear I knew she was a lying slut. She said her husband had cheated on her… as if that gives her a free pass to have an affair of her own. In my case I think the OW has severe pathology.

      When the OW can play victim you know he really picked a winner.

      • The whore in my fws case had the audacity to tell my daughter in law that God sent her to FW when he needed her. My daughter in law said “I don’t think God sends a woman to steal another woman’s husband” My daughter in law just recently told me that, though she said it years ago.

        I reread the ten commandments and I didn’t see where it said “thou shalt not commit adultery, you know unless you really need to” Maybe I missed something somewhere.

        • Pretty sure God is not sending whores to married men, to ruin families. How disordered is her thinking, geeze?!?!

          • Oh she is disordered to be sure. she is also not very intelligent. I mean she said it to my daughter in law in front of my son. My daughter in law said “do you realize you are talking about “sons name” mother, and Susie is a very good woman.

            The ex went on to cheat on her several times that my daughter in law found out about, wonder if the whore thought those women were sent when he needed them. Dumb as ass.

            My son said her sons are just like her, ignorant beyond belief. Most folks even if they are not highly educated, pick up some reasonable social cues and rules of polite society, not them.

            My daughter in law is so glad to be rid of them. She is of course not happy that his dad died, but now she won’t have to deal with them again.

  • Zero accountability for the people who destroy lives, ruin families, who soul murder you because they feel entitled to your spouse, the people who infect you with life long afflictions of incurable sexually transmitted diseases. No accountability for the fraud, deceit and theft by the very people sworn in front of God and witnesses to be faithful, your spouse aided by the affair partner are merely “opening your horizons”. Then some genius wants to go and publish this glorification of the violence done to the unsuspecting victims, the Chumps. Adultery is abuse. Adultery is an act of emotional violence frequently accompanied by physical violence.

    Chump Lady and the UBT stand up against this violence. She is changing the narrative that adultery is merely exuberant defiance of those pesky marital vows. Adultery is abuse.

    • And can often and quickly turn to violence and murder. I know of a man who found out his wife was cheating and he went looking for the AP and could not find him as did not know where he lived etc and had no surname at the time. He then beat the life out of the wife and left her covered in bruises and black eyes, severe bruising on neck so forth and nearly broke her ribs and he did all that to try and lure the AP out to confront him and AP never ever went to face him. He would have killed the AP and don’t think many would blame him for that. This was a man who was never abusive in his marriage but the cheating pushed him over the edge. People die over this!

    • Sorry but wow. Nobody made that dude beat up his wife, just like nobody made her cheat. They both did it because they wanted to and could. And tbh I don’t believe he’d never abused her before… People don’t tend to go from “normal” to “Imma beat you to a bloody pulp to lure out and murder your affair partner” with no stops in between. Sounds like a total psycho.

      • He was a violent man and had been to prison previously. It was the wife who stated he had never laid a finger on her before. So who knows what the truth really is but the AP most certainly got lucky that he was never found.

  • Our bases insticts could also involve stealing, hitting people when they taunt us or mock us, and telling our rotten boss where to go.

    But most of us rise about our baser nature and impulses.

    Having impulses and acting on them are a world apart.

  • This is the drivel you find on various online sites

    Unmet needs ( only of the cheater)
    Not happy ( only the cheater)
    It’s not wrong to be happy ( only the cheater)
    It’s not wrong to be in love (only the cheater)

    The OW/OM get a free pass also as these poor cheaters were only following the above and the affair partner can provide these cheaters all of it . It’s not their fault they fell in love with your spouse if you did your job right then they wouldn’t be able to take them away from you and your family.

    Notice how these cheaters and AP never do anything wrong ? It’s nature , it’s love , it’s a circus with flying elephants !!

    No the only people wrong are the chumps.
    Don’t want an open marriage ? Shame on you
    Didn’t communicate enough? Well no wonder your spouse had an affair
    Didn’t do the dishes ? Well it’s only natural that your spouse stole all your family savings

    I thank the good Lord above every day for CL & CN as I think I would have been lead down that path

    • Well put!

      And they don’t see the double standards.

      Here’s one stupid-ass statement from my ex that comes to mind. [Were I to have said the same to him, he would have blown a gasket. But without empathy, there’s…opacity.]:

      “But I wasn’t sure I was going to leave you until the last few days. I love you both.” Looks like weighing his options (A or B) was SO difficult for him. He truly didn’t seem to understand why I wasn’t grateful that it was a very tough decision.

      It’s like he played a child’s game and “she won.” Could’ve gone either way! Eeny, meeny, miney…ho! Ho it is!! Toss that grenade on your marriage. Oh well!!! Zippidy doo da! One big Disney movie, indeed!

      • That infuriates me.

        These guys are such selfish assholes.

        If they had any regard for us at all, they would say “I am a selfish lying asshole who dumped you for a whore, and you deserve better” But, no they have to try their best to make themselves the victim.

    • I went down that path for years. It led to serious mental illness diagnosis, heavy medication, and I almost died. But what was really important was my now ex husband’s peepee and his girlfriends getting to laugh at me behind my back while I thought we were friends. Not my life. It makes me angry now. Really angry, especially when I think about the literal doctors and therapists who were helping kill my for the sake of my ex husband’s peepee. I wonder how many of them were screwing him. I just can’t understand why else they would join in on it, unless it was for money? Keep me sick, get to collect my money until I die, then move on to the next victim? It’s repulsive, may they all rot in hell.

  • Wait did anyone else catch this?

    “Encourage opacity and know that it is possible to create a healthy arrangement, as opposed to a devious, secretive relationship”

    Um, encouraging opacity literally promotes being shady and behind closed doors. I think the author slipped up and honestly said what she thought. I’m pretty sure people typically encourage transparency in relationships…to expose things to the light of day and public view.
    Wow terrible person and terrible writer. 2 for 2.

    • I saw that, in fact I looked up the word because it confused me. I knew what opaque meant, so I thought maybe opacity meant something I had wrong.

  • A classic. One of the funniest UBTs of all time.

    That ditz thinks she’s a neuroscientist, FFS. Testesterone creates a dopamine craving? Never heard that, probably because it’s bullshit. I will ask Uncle Google and report back.

    • Bingo. Uncle Google and friends report that testosterone does not cause dopamine cravings, in fact it raises dopamine. So if we are to follow her insane brand of pseudoscience, the higher the testosterone, the less one should actually feel the urge to seek out the dopamine rewards of extramarital horizontalism.

      Whatever the hell your name is columnist, if you haven’t boogied on back to the Mothership by now, I want you to know you’re an idjit. The Oracle has spoken.

      Oh. I feel a song coming on.

  • Wow, CL, you’re really giving your translators a mental workout with this post! I’m looking forward to seeing how they’re going to handle this one, for starters :

    There are not enough rivets in the UBT’s quarter panels to effectively answer the underlying query “Are people who cheat empathy-deficient, self-gratifying, narcissistic nimrods.”

  • The thing is that most people think like this writer. Shit happens, get over it. This is why I’m never having a romantic relationship again, like what for? To be cheated on again?

    • I really don’t think that’s true.

      Rubbish like this gets printed because it’s good clickbait, and the Internet makes us think, “oh, everyone thinks like this”.

      If it were really true, there wouldn’t be scandals about infidelity, there wouldn’t be books written about the pain of lies and betrayal, and there wouldn’t be sites like Chump lady.

      I do understand how you feel though, reading crap like this makes one think it’s all pervasive, but just Google infidelity, and you’ll find *hundreds*of sites, articles etc describing how evil and horrific lies and betrayal are. Decent, moral people with integrity know how soul destroying and evil it is.

      I doubt very much I will ever have a romantic relationship again, mainly because at 69 I can’t imagine it, but I don’t think that every man is a shit bag – I’m just concentrating on me, what I like, what I want, doing the things I enjoy. If I meet someone who is likeable, good. If not, that’s OK too.

  • My ex came to me with a request for an open marriage, because she knew she could come to me about anything, even something as potentially dangerous for our marriage and family as this. (open channel of communication, CHECK.)

    That didn’t keep her from taking advantage, taking things way deep underground and employing the gamut of cheater manipulations, and falsely accusing me of domestic assault to a scrawny weasel who sings into carrots.

    Predators, parasites, and other threats to personal safety occur in nature. Understanding their actual (not perceived or desired) state is a good thing. So is self-protection.

    • The open marriage thing is comical. My ex wife one Sunday during all her cheating stated she wanted to be a Hotwife. I said well if we open the relationship then I’m going to enjoy some girls and she went ballistic at the thought of me touching another female. Back to the good old pressure points and digging her nails so hard into my balls I was bleeding but hey she wanted an “open relationship “ for her and her only. I had already filed for divorce by that stage anyway and she had no idea. Then after her false DV allegations and me being removed from the home she spent many times in message and in person having a breakdown asking “what’s her name, who is she”. She was convinced I was dating girls when I was not. Personality disorders are awful fun.

  • If this is true then why are men on this blog, and many sites, with their hearts broken? “She cheated so, hey, I have a permanent hall pass.” I am not seeing that. I am reading about pain.
    I looked at blogs and other sites. Lots of whining about the married man not leaving his wife. Not much joy in cheaterville.

  • Sung to the tune of Planet Clare by the B52s.

    She came from Oxytocin
    Legs wider than the ocean
    She wielded lots of science words
    The blather of a sparkling turd

    Oxytocin is pink for chicks
    Seeking out married dicks
    Natural is right and free
    Never heard of HPV

    Some say she’s from Venus
    And only the brightest stars in the nightmare sky shimmer for hot married penis
    Well, she’s stupid!

    She came from Oxytocin
    Check it out! Great hip motion!
    She came from Oxytocin

  • “Encourage opacity …”

    Well, there’s a Freudian slip. She meant to say “transparency,” or else she’s a writer who doesn’t know how to use a dictionary.

  • Cheating is not a relationship. It’s a game that requires a chump to deceive. Ironically, the chump is the most important player, the Secret Sauce that makes the affair taste so good. Without the chump, it doesn’t work.

    Like a 3-legged stool. When you take a leg away the stool can’t stand.

    Our daughter caught him on Tinder while he was living with the Craigslist cockroach. His “sole mate”. His dream girl of a fantasy specific racial demographic that was different from mine

    Surely the solution to his years of clandestine unhappiness was to find his fantasy specific racial demographic dream girl! And the only way to do that was to pretend to be married while shopping for women of that specific racial demographic on Craigslist!! Yeaaaaaaaah. That’s the ticket!

    The Tinder hookup was MY racial demographic.

    The “fucked up” is strong with cheaters.

    The game of cheating doesn’t work and there is no thrill of deceit if all the players are aware. That’s what they’re after and why this has nothing to do with relationships being closed, open, whatever.

    The only winning move is WALK AWAY.

    • VH – i love your use of words and the thinking behind them!
      Rock that shit!

    • “Cheating is not a relationship. It’s a game that requires a chump to deceive. Ironically, the chump is the most important player, the Secret Sauce that makes the affair taste so good. Without the chump, it doesn’t work.

      Like a 3-legged stool. When you take a leg away the stool can’t stand.”

      Apt description. The thrill of triangulation and deceit is the fuel; once that is depleted, they only have another liar and manipulator to undermine and the ego kibbles usually aren’t as satisfying (hence their usually seeking out new, trusting people to manipulate).

    • EXACTLY. Women who go after married dudes because they want unavailable men? Umm, I’m pretty sure it’s not that difficult to find single dudes who don’t want a deep commitment. The mate poaching aspect of it is part of the appeal. The idea that someone would risk so much for them is appealing. They’re so damn special. And the married man looks like a better catch because being married gives the appearance of stability and success.

      I have often compared my situation to a three legged stool. Their relationship only worked with spouses on the side doing most of the heavy lifting.

      • Most women who go after married men, want the marriage blown apart; so they can get the spoils. Most can’t compete for singly successful men, so they have to do it covertly with a married man to gain power. I am not saying all, but most.

        I also think most men who go after married women, don’t want the woman, they just want the thrills, not saying all but most.

        If that is sexist to think that, then so be it. I have seen too many examples to think otherwise.

        • No, I think that’s accurate. Regarding the women wanting the marriage blown apart – I’ve seen examples of the OW becoming quite bold in getting the betrayed spouse to catch on to the affair, like leaving clothing or jewelry behind. It’s like marking their territory; rubbing it in their face.

          • The whore in my case made my husband set her at our table during his work awards ceremony. He of course was a coward, and she had him by the short hairs. She definitely wanted my nose rubbed in their nasty business. I didn’t suspect her, though I knew by then something was going on. She was not a particularly attractive woman, and quite frankly I was; so I just didn’t suspect her. I had imagined a super sexy younger woman. I mean she was five years younger, but she looked older than either of us.

            She had her other work friend (female) with her who made the comment that “H and I are such a cute couple, and how we hold hand in public and how the whole city would be so surprised if we ever divorced” I asked him why she would say something like that, he just shrugged and said she is an idiot.

            That was mid December and 25 Dec was Dday for me. He wouldn’t tell me who it was at first, but when I found out it was the whore at the table, well; kick in the head for me. I guess it really isn’t about looks, or smarts or anything but the thrill of duping the chump.

            There was no better Chump than me.

            • Susie Lee, Very similar to my story. So demeaning to have proof your own husband lacks any character. Mine said of the OW (behind her back) ” she’s nothing but a stupid hog, a piece of ass.” Makes me wonder why he would want to torture himself with that for 15 years. Here again she was a real looker somewhat like Edith Bunker so I didn’t consider her. You are so totally right in saying it’s all about the sneak. The thrill of the sneak. Such a low bar to set.

          • The main OW uses our last name on one of her FB pages. She is a Chinese national and there is no mistaking it is not her last name….unless she was to marry him…..

            She also posted selfies with blue contact lenses (my eyes are blue).

            One of my nicknames for her is Fatal Attraction….

          • Ah, and the memories flood back. This happened too. She was/is ruthless.

        • Susie this exactly. When I was early on this journey I learned that a trait of a serial cheater is having married affair partners, it creates less mess for the men. The women they cheat with have a lot to lose themselves. It helps lessen the risk of some chick showing up at their home at midnight.
          In my situation the OW’s husband left her years ago. He wised up, said he felt bad for me with the kids and kept quite. It explained so much of a 2 year period of my life. My husband was getting pulled from 2 directions, and his OW likely wanted a commitment. When I told him to move in with her, and that we were done it took his fun love triangle away. This OW was after a real relationship. He enjoyed his cake, lucky for me she helped me see the truth so I can free myself.

          • I am glad you are getting out of it. I don’t think there is any other way for a chance at happiness.

            I found CL due to his blow up with our son, so I was way past the horror of my situation. I am glad I found CL because it explained so much that remained a mystery to me. Oh it didn’t stop me from going on to have a blessed life, but still it would have been easier in real time if I had know what I know now.

            I just love the folks on here, and I hope that in some small way I can help a newly minted chump know that they will be ok.

            In my case the OW was his fruit broad for several years before she put the hammer down on his dick. I don’t know who dropped a dime on them, but I am glad they did. Goodness he created a big mess. I still have a hard time understanding how he could have been so stupid as to screw with his (single) direct report. He was such a controller, he likely thought he would always have it under control.

            I escaped when I was 40, much easier than had I been a lot older.

        • I agree, they want the extra action and they know that a married woman will NOT tell anyone for fear of their spouse finding out. Its built in insurance!!!!

  • This made me a bit queasy.

    The writer failed to acknowledge how often affair partners engage in a sexual relationship they know will end a marriage and they think will lead to a committed relationship with each other. They are not “natural” beings. They are selfish liars who are enabled by society (and articles like this) to ruin lives. If infidelity carried the same legal punishments as assault or embezzlement, victims would press charges. And that would be a different story.

    • I truly support the death penalty on AP’s. May be extreme but after losing my family home, marriage, kids and the trauma, I honestly believe they deserve their life taken.

      • It should come with more of a consequence. I’d like to sue the AP for a nice large sum. I’d love for her to suffer a fraction of what I’ve suffered. As for him, he should have more of a consequence too. If we’d been business partners he may go to jail for misallocation of funds, but in marriage its seen as a civil matter. It all feels more criminal then just some domestic matter.

        I’m hoping her health has suffered with all this and that the karma bus will get them both.

        • I’d definitely like them to hurt like they hurt me. Even a fraction like you said. They didn’t have to pretend to be my friends. They didn’t have to come to my home for holidays and interact with my child and smile to my face and accept my charity while gloating about how stupid I was and eagerly looking forward to the destruction of my family. What they were doing was shitty but they could have been 1000 times less shitty and spared me the intense humiliation if they’d had even a crumb of conscience. But they don’t, mentally and emotionally they aren’t even human beings so they’ll never feel anything.

          • I still don’t get the thrill they get by parading their whores around us.

            Makes no sense to me at all. The whore in my case, came to my house on the excuse of meeting me as his employee, and this was well after they started fucking around. They knew exactly what they were doing.

            He even mentioned once he wanted to ask her over to one of our Barbeques, I said no. Honestly, I don’t know why I said no; I had no suspicions at the time of him even cheating, much less cheating with that skank.

            Maybe I said no because my gut was trying to protect me.

            • FW’s AP gave us handmedowns for our youngest and came to a few birthday parties because she had kids of similar ages to our own. That happened pre-affair. I remember an odd interaction with her at some holiday get together after they had begun seeing other but before I had discovered it and how she had seemed surprised about something I knew. Like she had assumed some tidbit of knowledge wasn’t being passed along to me. It kind of pinged my radar but not to the point of investigating. That came later. I always think back to it and get super grossed out though. Like was he hoping we’d mud wrestle being in the same room or something?

            • I bet it was your gut trying to protect you. I had so many “paranoid” moments I’ve now found were correct. I disliked one of my ex’s coworkers immediately. Something immediately told me she was not trustworthy. My husband told me I was being paranoid and it wasn’t fair to judge her based on nothing but a knee jerk reaction. But I couldn’t shake it. Her husband was very nice and I liked him. So I dealt with her. And we did things as couples.

              And then a few years later she gave birth to a very white, very blonde, very blue eyed baby. Much to her black husband’s surprise. And I felt so bad for him. He stayed and raised the baby as his own for a few years until she dumped him and he lost all rights because he wasn’t the biological father. He even wanted to pay support and stay in the child’s life but no, courts wouldn’t allow it. I thought that was so weird since no one knew who the actual father was, why wouldn’t they want her husband to take responsibility if he was willing to, and to continue to after the divorce? Oh, my ex felt so terrible for him too. Yeah… so many times I went on and on about what kind of piece of shit man would let another man raise his child like that and do nothing? Pay nothing? The real dad must be a real piece of shit.

              Guess who was sleeping with her the entire time? My white husband. The kid even kind of looks like him. It wasn’t until my own adult son found out what a cheater his dad was and said “OMG, could that be his child? Could that be my sibling?”

              Dunno. But it could explain where some of the missing money was going and why the court was fine with severing her husband’s rights at the time of divorce if they already knew who the father was and he was paying.

              But I was so paranoid for not liking her immediately. God, that pisses me off now. They were already screwing long before I met her. They were screwing before she married her poor husband that she destroyed. But some part of me knew, immediately. I’ll never not listen to that again. If some random person I just met feels offended by that, it can be their problem, I don’t care. I’m not handing out chances anymore.

              • OMG, I’m so sorry for what betrayal you have endured
                You are a warrior!!!!!!! Forge on!!!!
                Leave a cheater, gain a beautiful life

        • Excellent point. Why would they marry? Would she be ok with her husband casually mentioning that he would like to start acting on his attraction to a new woman while she’s nursing their baby at 2am? How about a lovely open marriage resulting in an accidental new half-sibling for her new baby? How freeing and cosmopolitan it would be to sit down with a chil support attorney while you first child is still in diapers. And I hear those paternity tests are fun, and so very “natural”.

      • ChumpyNoLove, I too think there should be legal recourse to adultery. We need to find a way to install new laws that promote suing the AP. Since it’s usually men who do the cheating the laws made by men and enforced by men favor men. We need to work diligently with the legal system to change this, not just complain about it. Nobody is going to hand it to us. We need to protect our daughters and granddaughters. Laws don’t change until people do.

      • I have very unpleasant (for them) revenge fantasies about my FW father’s APs. Death penalty isn’t among them….I’d like them to actually suffer for a very long time. Lose their own families, careers, money, home, status, security. Why can’t we have the scarlet letter?!

        • Branded on their cheek for all the world to see ! Or HOMEWRECKING WHORE

  • In the first article, she says that in two years in the same apartment building, she hasn’t learned a name or made a single friend. She says the way to build a relationship with a sex buddy is to see if you can trust him to do household chores, like water your plants when you’re away–something your neighbors might do, if you’d bothered to meet them. The pregnancy story is a photo op for her to wear skimpy lingerie and heels. What a narc and user. I feel sorry for the baby.

  • So basically if you’re a home wrecking POS you can feel confident in destroying a persons marriage, family and tearing the kids lives apart because hey, you can. Never mind the years and years of emotional damage done to young kids from having their home stability torn apart or a man/woman have years/decades of their lives stolen/wasted on a partner who thought nothing of cheating on them. Cheating nukes everything it touches.

    I often think many of these cheaters deserve to have bumped into Ted Bundy and let him level the playing field on them. Sure old Ted was only embracing his natural desires like the crap wrote in this article. Also amazing the amount of “men” who don’t have the balls to go face the husband. Long runs the fox.

  • Some creatures live in groups, by nature, others are loners most of the time. You do not choose which group you are born into. Assuming that we humans are a group species, we agree to certain norms of the group without question, because that is where we are born and raised. Just because a group norm exists does not mean it is right, or wrong. Norms of behavior are created for survival of the group as a whole, and certain characteristics will make some members leaders, while the majority will be followers. You can’t run an efficient group with constant bickering (Congress, take note!).

    If scientific thinking is followed, it is normal for group behaviors to evolve and adapt to changes in environment, or it will become extinct. I realize all this is very simplistic, and ignores variants like outside influences, but basically one of the differences we have by living in the human group is that we have ideas about character and acceptable behavior, and making what we consider to be moral choices. At one time, the very nature of our continued existence may have created circumstances where concepts like male dominance and strict role duties were necessary. We have evolved. I have choices my grandmothers never even allowed themselves to dream of. I have discovered I don’t need to live with a male partner to be “complete”, or happy.

    I was raised with the concept that it was normal to marry, and the marriage should be monogamous, for the overall good of the family, and group. There were many times when this model did not hold, but these exceptions were considered moral lapses, and they should be corrected, and life will go on. This confused me for a long time. I also saw situations where women were actually capable of doing traditional male tasks, and often were better suited to these tasks. So, I began to question, who sets the group norms?

    I decided, after being chumped, and after realizing that no matter what I did my father would never be pleased, that I was going to set my own norms. I still am partial to monogamy. It just makes too much sense to me. If you are going to partner, and have children, life is much easier with a partner you can trust to share your moral worldview. It eliminates so many problems, so many unnecessary expenses. I don’t have to defend my belief. If any potential partner does not see himself as capable of self control, he can just find another partner who shares his world view. I can exist without a partner. I was able too raise my sons without a partner. It was hard, but it was easier than living with a lying, cheating, money wasting partner. I have evolved.

    I do not believe addiction is inevitable. I believe some people choose different things to be their drug of choice. I believe some people choose sex as their drug of choice because that is what gives them immediate gratification, at least for awhile. I believe it is a bad, unhealthy choice, because it seems to me to be impossible to live a successful comfortable life with any addiction which controls your behavior and decisions. That is why some people overcome their addiction. They choose life. Others are unwilling to do the hard work of overcoming their urges, I choose to live a life where I do not let an unhealthy urge control my life.

    I am not perfect. I still love comfort foods I grew up with, even though I know they are unhealthy. I still want to drink my coffee, put butter on some foods, eat some meat, and I always have some dark chocolate in the house. I feel these things might shorten the quantity of my life, but life without them hurts the quality of my life. I don’t hurt my friends or children by sometimes giving in to my “addictions” As noted before, I don’t have a partner.

    Cheating does hurt everyone else. My group of chosen humans does not condone cheating as one of our social norms. If other humans want to live in a group that thinks this is normal, that is their choice. I won’t be attending their social events.

    Whatever you choose to do, take responsibility for your choice. Don’t self identify as a sex addict, and then use that to justify killing the objects of your perverse desire. Don’t propagate racist thoughts and then say you are not linked to racist crimes. Don’t judge other people’s sexual identity or choice, as wrong because it is different from yours, and then distance yourself from responsibility for crimes against them. We all have the ability to self correct, and evolve. Change is scary, but necessary. Set your own social norms, but don’t try to change others. It is a waste of time.

  • Thanks to the miracle of the Internet and social media, you can amass a bunch of followers who agree with you, no matter what you do, and make anything seem OK and normal, that you’re right and you’re an expert who knows what you’re talking about.

    No matter how awful and hurtful your conduct is, how devastating and painful it is to others, if you have half a million virtual defenders it’s OK. It feels
    to me like the Internet and social media and the world is one big yelling match to see whoever is loudest and gets the most attention and therefore Is Right.

    I need to avoid the noise and debate and keep my focus on finding people I trust and feel safe with. This feels like a safe and sane place to me.

    I was watching an episode about deep space on the Netflix series, A World of Calm. I am hoping those amazing cameras discover other planets that like-minded individuals can travel to and inhabit…..

  • Oh my gosh, I laughed to the point of tears – “Cheating women? Hey, I guess you’re all just too damn butch. Shave your chin hairs and drop some oxy. Maybe you’ll stop cheating.” Thanks for the laugh Tracy! My ex would never talk openly about anything he did. It was all secret, secret. You know, for the thrill.

  • Sharks eat cute baby seals and my dog drinks toilet water. What happens in nature or done by animals has no bearing on how humans should live.

  • “Some women simply appreciate their attraction while respecting the family unit…”

    WTF nonsense is this???? Show me ONE AP who respects the family unit.

    Also, my ex’s AP cheated on her spouse, too! Does that mean she has lots of testosterone? My ex has to take Viagra so not sure he has sky-high testosterone levels. Whatever! This hormone nonsense has me riled. Where are my estrogen pills?

    • The testosterone notion is utter crap. I use to be a bodybuilder and took steroids and had very high testosterone levels and never cheated on my ex wife and I had plenty of opportunity in the gym to do so. We were sleeping together about four times per day as we were early 20’s and when we were not, well I have hands. Even now in my 30’s and I’m on testosterone replacement therapy via my doctors and I still never cheated. I know plenty of bodybuilders who are and have been faithful to their partners so I believe the testosterone nonsense is just a cop out.

    • Nonsense! The last AP I know about not only knew all about the children but also knew I was pregnant. She didn’t give a shit about the family unit, just her thrill of sex with my husband. Our children were little, and she didn’t care. To me that proves they suck. He didn’t care enough to protect our family unit, and she didn’t respect a family unit enough to fuck a different man instead.

      She likely has a fair share of chin hairs, but whatever.

    • I actually didn’t take that to mean the APs were respecting the family unit, but rather that some women see the appeal of married men but do not get involved with them and then there are others who will either compete with the wife for Cheater McCheater Pants or use his marriage as a way of keeping things superficial. The writing is a hot mess though so who knows.

  • Last year some well-meaning friends wanted to introduce me to a guy. These friends know all about my sad tale of cheating abandonment after my long marriage. I am an early retiree with my own money and have not stepped into the dating world after being so very snake bit, partly because I feel like I am a target for much older dudes looking to replace their missing retirement fund and take care of them in their dotage. The guy the friends wanted to introduce is a successful youngish retiree who just sold his company and now snow spends winters in the Southwest and summers up north in my town. Great guy. Let’s get together, could be fun.

    Days after first talking about him they get around to mentioning the fact he is married.

    Oh….but the friends say he is “not MARRIED-married, they are just like roommates, he just didn’t get the divorce because he didn’t want to split the assets and sale of his business, it has been over for years.” All the usual trope.

    How about fuck no? What part of “I was cheated on and lied to for years before a traumatic sudden abandonment” did you miss? These friends just really didn’t get it. Trampling over this guy’s marital status was just no big deal even though they were solidly in my corner regarding my own cheater, and they made is clear I was missing out by not being more open-minded and reasonable, they seem to think I am stuck up. I am stunned to realize these ladies are not actually friends. I am stunned at how often the ethics of otherwise “good people” are obliterated with such ease.

    Mr. Wonderful didn’t bother to divorce his roommate so he does not get to date me. Why is this a difficult concept? He is either your basic lying cheater with a clueless chump at home, or he is a cheater that is willing to humiliate some new woman with the status of being a side piece to a sham marriage so he can keep his money. Woe to any stupid woman who would step into that role and it is not going to be me. And woe to him because someone like me (ethical, loyal, financially independent) will not consider even meeting him.

    Picker status: fixed.

    • That’s what I don’t get about polyamory and “ethical nonmonagamy.” There is a primary relationship and the side relationships.You are basically telling new partners that no matter what, they will always be a side piece. How is that good? I once had a man who fancied himself a polyamorist approach me, saying he was wildly attracted to me bla bla bla. I tried to be open-minded and hear him out. The upshot of it was, this is ok with my wife and I am never going to leave her, but I want you too. And I thought, what the f*ck is in it for me then? He wasn’t rich or especially good-looking, not that I care all that much about those traits. I am guessing the only thing big about him was his ego.

      • I think it was Velvet Hammer who said that if she was willing to eat garbage she wouldn’t need to pay for restaurants.

        Sadly there are a lot of low character people who prefer the physical attention rather than go home to face a solo bed. And there are those who go for the challenge to try to take the guy away from the wife despite his declaration that it won’t happen; pick me dancing for sport. They get some attention, maybe some free meals or weekends away, whatever is up for grabs. They do not believe that alone is better than being used and they are receiving what they need from the transaction.

        They are used to the taste of garbage.

        • Right, the “challenge” of a manipulative woman who wants to feel special (without being special) scoring a married man who is on the prowl for kibble and control.

          The true challenge (mission impossible) goes to the unsuspecting, committed chump fighting for intimacy and respect while her husband screws an easy, ego-inflating woman, all behind said chump’s back. Bonus points if the OW the married man is gossiping with about betrayed spouse is an inexperienced, shallow and mean-spirited college girl who knows nothing about real life and relationships. Recently, someone on this blog highlighted the contrast between a 20-year life-encrusted partnership and a shiny new fling. Says a lot about the cheater and what he/she is made of and cares about.

      • Yeah, I’ve posted my story here before, but my cheater (husband of 25 years), tried to trick me into an open relationship. Basically he said he wanted to do some sexual experimentation with some pretty hard core stuff. I didn’t want him to do it, and I was so traumatised that I would lose my marriage, I said I would agree to a small amount of experimentation. I laid down a bunch of rules, primary number one was that there would be no actual relationships with anyone, that he was safe, and that he would never lie to me. He told me he would think about it and take some time to process it. He got his wedding ring fixed, told me he was so happy and that he would let me know when he was ready to do it. Well, cut a long story short, lo and behold the fucker had been cheating on me for years and had already found a new relationship, had been fucking strange at S&M clubs and buying prostitutes. FOR YEARS. So now the narrative he’s telling everyone is this: my wife gave me permission to experiment, then when I did she got mad and kicked me out. It’s her fault we’re getting divorced, I was just being honest. Yeah….no.

        If cheating on me for at least two decades wasn’t enough, stealing our money, putting me at risk, he had to set me up by making me feel highly vulnerable, agree to something I didn’t want to do, and then finding out it was all bullshit anyway, and then throwing me under the bus when I got mad that I found out it was all a big lie. So his scheme was to make me look like I was just “un-evolved” and not into “open marriages” – so it’s my fault. I think he forgot the cheating and lying came first. In addition to that, his girlfriend who was meant to only be the side piece, left her boyfriend because my husband was (according to him) such a better man and she really just wanted to be available for him only. So, my husband fucking PAID with our money to move the boyfriend out. Hmmmm is that was side pieces do, or was she meddling in my marriage and trying to oust me? She won the turd and they got their “open relationship”, just without the wife in the way. I hope they’re having a great life.

    • Picker status: fixed.

      You are mighty, IC! Hope to be like you one day soon.

      • Thanks. Unfortunately the corollary to a fixed picker is very often “Dating status: single” because there is a whole pile of bad juju out there. I am learning to be content with the idea I may never choose to pair up again.

        There is more. One woman associated with our bigger friends group still said she would be interested in the guy and wants to be introduced. She likes that he has money. So there you go, a match.

        However….. they may not be a match according to the one lady who knows him best because he is 64 and the interested lady is 66 and therefore not in his range. She believes he is a much better match with me (who is 52). Of course he wants younger and she doesn’t believe he would consider someone closer to his own age. It is all very vomit-worthy.

        These people have the emotional intelligence of pond algae.

        I need to find better friends.

        • Yeah, why are they trying so hard to find him someone to use as fuck meat behind his wife’s back?
          They’re gross. You can do better. At least you’re seeing it now though rather than later.

    • Wow! I couldn’t imagine setting my friend up like that. Goes to show that integrity is a waning trait in this culture…

    • She’s completely obsessed with herself, her own genitals, and sex. That’s clear from that article. What a sad, gross life.

  • If only I could have done this to Cheaters #1 and #2, like the huskies in my life:

    Whack him on the nose with a rolled up newspaper. Take away his squeaky toys. Crate him. It’s not you, it’s nature.

    Wait, never mind. I’ll go get another rescue dog than take a chance on #3.

  • There are a lot of examples from the animal kingdom of romantic rivals being killed, Shannan. That’s natural too.

    I think that’s a pretty serious relevant fact to leave out of your genius PhD dissertation.

    Just sayin’……

  • Yes, it’s the games and feeling “special.” However, real relationships don’t involve games and are special even when you are frustrated with each other and look like death warmed over. Cheating shatters real relationships.

    It took awhile into separation, but one day I realized that testing, comparisons, and manipulation were hallmarks of a really damaged relationship. He’d ask me questions at times and then either use the answers against me later or dive in right then, going for the kill. That shows the contempt and entitlement, big time. He’d tell me how much better I’d be if I was like an old girlfriend of his, the sister-in-laws, etc. etc. Comparisons are OUT. And then the manipulation. He manipulated me until I got what it was and stopped it. Then he tried to manipulate his attorney. That didn’t go well. And he manipulated his relatives to make himself the victim. I gave up at that point. And evidence of playing around during and after we separated although I chose not to pursue that.

    As my therapist once said, “People like him don’t deserve to be married.”

    • Cheating is not “special” or unique. It’s banal and cliched and weak. It takes one night to have an affair, and it can be with literally anyone; it takes years to build a true partnership. Cheaters aren’t special, nor are APs. Weird that I had to routinely remind myself of this and that I continued to Pick Me for some time, even after I saw how pathetic all parties I was dealing with really were.

      Your therapist is right, cheaters don’t deserve to be married – at least not to loyal and loving chumps.

      • True! Nothing special about cheaters or APs. I need that reminder, too.

        Also, you write, “It takes one night to have an affair.” I agree. But, it turns out that my ex has a different definition of an “affair.” Although he admits to a multi-year affair, he says that one-night stands are not affairs. What a tell! I argued and then gave up because of NC and all that. But WTF??

        He also slipped and asked me if my lawyer was going to “go after all the other women.” He put this in writing. What a dumbass! Welp. I sent that text to my lawyer, too. He put all sorts of incriminating evidence in writing. Why did I ever feel intellectually inferior to that man?

  • Boodram lost me at “it’s natural.”

    Some species eat their own offspring. Does this twit recommend that?

    Boodram talks about how marriage was a legal contract, back there in the days when women couldn’t own property and were powerless and penniless without a husband. She seems to have forgotten that contemporary marriage is also a contract, and the wife (in this case, since her idea is that men cheat) is investing in a financial partnership as well as a sexual one. House, kids, paychecks, inheritances, vehicles, pensions–it’s a modern version of how people acquire the assets needed to raise and educate children as well as secure enough resources to navigate illness or old age. So from the beginning her whole premise falls apart.

    GACK. I despise these people who justify selfish, cruel behavior.

  • This argument is ridiculous on its face, as all the commenters have pointed out. A good chunk of human civilization and society has developed precisely to buffer the effects of “natural” homicide, starvation, exposure, disease. So, “natural” does not automatically equate to “good” or “healthy” or “sustainable.” It’s utter nonsense. That’s not what’s enraging to me about this argument: what’s enraging is its dishonesty. Ms. Boodram doesn’t actually want everyone to do what she’s suggesting. The result would be societal chaos, and likely domestic violence and an STD or two for her. No, what she wants is for others to continue living according to the social contract she disdains, thus maintaining societal harmony and safety for her as a woman, while giving her a free pass to break that contract as she wishes. She wants other women to absorb the cost of her self-indulgences. The entitlement makes me literally sick to my stomach. These people are a social cancer: the only way to deal with them is to ostracize them and boost system immunity so they can’t latch on and start growing again.

    I don’t know if you guys are watching “Love, ft. Marriage & Divorce” on Netflix right now, but it addresses a lot of these same issues. It’s a bit of a sleeper: when it starts out, it spouts a lot of the “If you make yourself pretty and cook dinner and have sex with your husband more, he won’t cheat on you” tropes, but that’s deliberate: the women spouting these lines at each other don’t know they’ve been cheated on. As the season continues and they learn of their husbands’ infidelity and begin to confront its ripple effects on their families and society, the series starts to get very smart about the entitlement of cheaters and the incredible damage it does to the social contract. Also, there are some killer monologues by kids absolutely tearing their cheater dads to shreds for destroying the family. Very therapeutic once you get to that point (about 7 episodes in).

  • “Good advice. Except this ignores the fact that cheaters don’t cheat for sexual novelty (because testosterone), they cheat because they enjoy the deceit. Gaming the system to have an unfair advantage (cake) is what infidelity is about.

    Sexual shame doesn’t make people cheat — entitlement does.”

    This needs to be repeated again and again. And then again. People may cheat for myriad reasons but it really comes back to this. Cheaters want all of the perks that comes with extramarital relationships: the sex, attention, excitement because it’s new, excitement because it’s being done in secret, etc without any of the costs of being honest about it like possibly getting divorced. The appeal of cheating is that it’s cheating, not that it’s non-monogamy.

    • “Sexual shame doesn’t make people cheat — entitlement does.”
      On my morning commute today, I listened to a radio conversation about the killings in Georgia. The guest commented on how blame shifting has been a huge part of the narrative surrounding this heinous crime – as if the murderer’s sexual shame (pastor’s son) in some way excused or explained away these heinous crimes; this not only ignores the racial motivations, but it also removes accountability. The guest also pointed out that another common excuse for these “misunderstood” monsters is that they were having bad days/going through a difficult time (sound familiar) – adding that when she has a bad day, she pours a glass and of wine and gorges on chocolate. Sexual shame doesn’t make people rape and kill – entitlement and personality disorders do. When society and media minimize, make excuses and engage in/accept DARVO, we condone violence and abuse.

      • It’s also projection. The victims are “made responsible” for the sexual shame/sins of the perpetrator. I know this is a common theme many of us have experienced, as evidenced when rage channel or discard roll around. Their shame is displaced – upon innocent victims. In the case of cheating, the irony is that they blame their most loyal allies.

      • And that misogynistic psychopath is going to cry victim. “I’m a sex addict ! ???? I shouldn’t be held responsible for murdering those women. Poor me ???? “
        Are there ANY stories of women going on a rampage at a bodybuilders gym or team locker room ? No.

        • The Atlanta spa shootings and the murder of the woman in London have made me realize just how exhausted I am of all the “security theater” that women do to keep themselves safe that really doesn’t amount to much because some men just gotta murder.

        • In truth, they are the dirty secret, and the victims are the evidence and the witnesses. Sociopaths/psychopaths might believe they can eliminate their shame (if that exists), evil deeds, consequences, personal responsibility, and any reminder thereof if they can destroy the objects of their projection and/or the witnesses and evidence. This is scary. Even though I’m NC and have now been discarded, and even though I don’t believe I have anything to worry about, this awareness occasionally haunts me in my dreams. For example, last night – I had a dream that my life was in danger, and I woke up feeling uneasy and feeling fully committed to maintaining NC and avoiding my ex at all costs.

  • don’t know what it takes to become a “certified sexologist”, but clearly, Shannon Boodram does not have the intelligence, education, or common sense to know what the hell she is talking about and it’s a shame TV shows have given her a platform to spew her bullshit! At the very least, someone should send her a dictionary!

  • Also, for a sexologist, the article was super heteronormative. I get that it was geared for women seeking out married men, but all her science talk seems to fall apart when you remember that other sexual identities exist and cheating takes place within those relationships as well.

  • If spouse legally enters the “outdated” “Monogamy-Marriage-Disney-Model”, and then you discover (he’s) “changed” to the “Mistress-Relationship-Cake-Model”, swiftly introduce (him) to the modern “Split-Assets-Divorce Model”.

  • Shannon Boodram, sexologist and crown jewel wearer, likes the sound of her own writing…as incompetent as her grasp of the English language may be…”Encourage opacity” lol!

    Ahem, some people live in their own heads…

    Experience here proves Miss Shannon100% wrong, as CL has pointed out. Motivations of entitlement – we chumps know how this works, after we did all the communicating…we did all the kinky sex and the planning holidays, and the pulling more than our weight in the relationship to please our cheaters. WE KNOW HOW THIS SHIT GOES DOWN…like a goat rodeo.

    I’ve had the privilege of seeing what my cheater (now living elsewhere) is looking up on Youtube (don’t ask me how…)
    It’s very sad stuff. His ego has been injured highly. Didn’t work out with AP it seems and now he’s wondering if he’s really a cheater at all (there is a Youtube video to work out if you are REALLY a cheater after you’ve cheated). Other great watching fodder…
    *Save Your Marriage While Separated: Do This!
    *Signs Of The End Of A Marriage (oh did he miss them? the lying on top of a naked woman who is not your wife…must add that to the list.)
    *Disrupting the Divorce Experience. Defining Your Next Chapter.
    *The Other Side of Infidelity (this one is about PTSD symptoms in the betrayed spouse…well thanks for caring – hope he watched to the end)
    *The Warrior Mentality When Dealing With Breakups (That’s the spirit FW! Blame me. Sorry about the Dear John letter…What a selfish person I am for dumping him over his cheating).

    …I shouldn’t peek at what he’s doing, I know. Will quit that now. Was a little fun for me after all the shitshow of getting him out of my life.

    • I found a computer with some interesting history on it after my cheating husband left. Things like…

      -How to hide cash
      -Why it’s good to make yourself less available
      -What to buy your overseas girlfriend-
      -local escorts
      -gifts for your lover
      -best hidden bars in (our town)
      -when two empaths fall in love
      -what to do if you’re a highly sensitive man
      -anal sex tips

      You get the idea!

      • True! Nothing special about cheaters or APs. I need that reminder, too.

        Also, you write, “It takes one night to have an affair.” I agree. But, it turns out that my ex has a different definition of an “affair.” Although he admits to a multi-year affair, he says that one-night stands are not affairs. What a tell! I argued and then gave up because of NC and all that. But WTF??

        He also slipped and asked me if my lawyer was going to “go after all the other women.” He put this in writing. What a dumbass! Welp. I sent that text to my lawyer, too. He put all sorts of incriminating evidence in writing. Why did I ever feel intellectually inferior to that man?

      • Formerly KA- Oh, hahaha. If you can laugh now about it. Pitiful really.

        I also see that my ex after all of his wimpy reading up on saving his marriage, he’s also checking out dance clubs…Yeah, the leopard and his spots…

    • I am interested in how you found that out, I must admit.

      FW father (FWF) in his recent declarations that he is going to “solve all of the problems of the world” has “child exploitation (p0rn)” on his list. To me that seems like a very weird thing to have on the list. Yes, it is a problem for sure. But why he has to think that he needs to solve it is really a conundrum for me. He has spoken a few times of how people view these videos…. subscription websites and just last week he said YouTube. He said that YouTube is the biggest place where these videos are.

      I didn’t have the presence of mind to ask him at the moment why he thought that. So I am interested to know what he really searches for online. I already know he’s got a p0rn addiction that rotates along with his other addictions.

      I hope that if he’s into that shit that he gets caught. But I have no idea about knowing what he’s searching around for.

      Sorry, that went OT a little bit!

  • As far as I am concerned, this asininely written article doesn’t even deserve CL’s review nor CN’s time and effort.

  • OMG. This “article” is pure rubbish. Anyone else wonder if the writer is a chump and if this is her version of spackle? E.g. ‘My partner’s cheating was not abhorrent, it was a natural occurrence. If we just have more opaque conversations (aka if he can just lie better) everything will be fine!’.
    I truly hope CL played a part in taking this baloney down. It’s insulting.

    • I followed a couple links people posted about her on here and at least at one point she was married to an unemployed man who aspired to be a rapper while she paid all their bills and he cheated on her and lied to her even though they had such an amazing open relationship with total honesty and gave her some diseases.

      So yeah, hardcore spackling going on here. She’s miserable and desperately trying to convince all other women we’re supposed to be miserable and cheated on and abused and killed by diseases so she can feel normal. It’s sad if you can look past the damage she’s doing to other people with her denial.

  • Yeah, it’s perfectly natural to lie to your spouse and have affairs. If its all so commonplace why the sneaking, lying and efforts to deceive? The OW are generally thirsty bitches, after money, perceived power, willing to do anything at any cost. They are of course not the poor little wife at home being chumped, they are so above that they believe…. until, shocker they ended up dating or marring the cheater and he does the same to them. Oh how the mighty tumble.

    • Sometimes I can’t imagine what it must be like to be the OW. It probably feels amazing thinking that you won and that someone would fuck up their whole life for you. But then, as time goes on, wouldn’t you start to worry??? The OW in my case was apparently so wracked with grief that she’d broken up the marriage that my poor husband really had to help her. No shit – he was very worried about her for her guilt. God forbid he’d worry about me and how I felt after being completely fucked over. And then…I found an email where the OW was searching up mental hospitals for me to go to. They are so insane it’s sometimes hard to fathom. I yearn for the day that I can get that karma – I cannot imagine the rocky start to their relationship could actually lead to anything stable. But hell…it’s lasted two years already so who knows!

      • Them being still together doesn’t mean it is good. I mean they were miserable with us for years right, and we didn’t know? (at least in their view) Most don’t last, of the few that do, likely less than one percent are happy. They are who they are.

        My fw and the whore stayed together for many years until he recently died. I doubt it was lollipops and rainbows, in fact because we share a son, I know the shit show they continued to live in. There is a chance that living in that shit show made them happy, but I seriously doubt it made him happy. She was used to a crappy lifestyle, but he wasn’t.

        They have both been such miserable bastards that they caused a rift between our son and him. My son through his own efforts mended it as best he could. But, he has no interest in maintaining a relationship with her, and his wife refuses to.

      • Looking up mental hospitals for you, can they spell projection? Obviously, the OW had some issues, guilt, fear that it would happen to her… who knows, and really that’s her problem. Fuck married men, have fucked up problems. You already have some bit of karma, the two insane people are together. I think we can all guess what kind of shit show that is.

  • I don’t know how the UBT managed this one. I was lost from the beginning. How can you communicate with someone who lies? Or how do you communicate about something you don’t even know is happening? The author places all responsibility on the cheated upon: if you apply her logic to the cheaters, it falls apart. The entire piece is word salad. Good thing we here now see through it, but infuriating that so many people don’t.

    I’ve also found myself frustrated when explanations of cheating encourage the betrayed to empathize, or asking readers to humanize cheaters (Perel, Cheryl Strayed, etc.). It really bothers me, because chumps are notoriously – perhaps universally – understanding and empathetic, to the point of reckless enabling. Otherwise, we wouldn’t all routinely reference DDay 1, 2, 3… In my own long term relationship with an abusive cheater, my quest for understanding/explaining led to empathizing led to enabling, and it was never reciprocal.

    • ???????? ???????? ????????

      CL really is the rare person who advocates for chumps and that makes me incredibly sad. Being cheated on was awful, and I found the RIC to be almost as traumatic. The amount of time I spent trying to figure out his shit when I should have been saving myself was pathetic. Cheaters don’t Google “why do I cheat?” They’re not buying books on how to help their wounded spouse. The chump buys it for them and then waits around for them to read it.

      • The idea of my cheating ex buying a book about how to help me through the trauma of her cheating actually made me out loud.

        • It is laughable! Enough said.

          Reading the comments on the RIC pages was a major eye opener for me. I saw how futile and desperate and helpless everyone was, and how similar the stories. I was mortified and vowed that would not be me. This was actually one of my first steps to seeing through the BS. CN comments are also eye openers- validating, insightful and empowering. I feel far more at home with this crowd! (Although I too was once on the “other side” and get the baffling vicious cycle of abuse that keeps chumps trapped.)

  • Reading this “article” was 10 mins of my life I won’t get back. What a waste.

  • Cheaters SUCK SUCK SUCK and there is no excuse in this world to justify what they do. A special place is waiting for them in HELL. It seems that people and the world in general have lost their way and have no shame of anything they do. My X of 31 yrs, 3 kids, etc (mr perfect) broke all of us, especially me. He is arrogant and narcissistic FUBR but manages to do image management into the kids family gatherings. I don’t know how these cheaters look at themselves everyday.

    RUN for the hills, they are unfixable. Fix YOURSELF the best you can and keep moving forward!!

  • How about females in the animal kingdom who kill the males they mate with?

    I mean, that happens in nature….right? So it is okay?

    Screw laws of man…. I live by laws of nature, muahahahhhhaaaaaa!

    (Just kidding, of course….sort of….maybe – ok, I’m not a murderer so I’m just making a point.)

  • Tis a vile shame that people with credentials and no common sense are allowed to preach to the masses.

  • In other words, we as women must train our men like dogs so that they dont cheat through tools such as, our magical vagina and discussions of alternatives of what to do when they just get that annoying urge to stick their dick in someone else…Why didnt all of us chumps think of that before?!?!?!
    What. A. Joke.

    • Right? If I had only known, he needed to be paper trained; I could have saved myself a lot of heartache.

      If I only knew, I had to be perfect while he had fart contests with himself and gained fifty pounds.

  • I had a friend from high school, a huge unrequited crush at the time, years of no contact, then I found him again. I’m gay, he’s bi. He had a wife. Apparently, she “let him” have sex with men, and he hit on me. Was I jealous of his wife? Absolutely. Was I tempted? Uh, yeah. Teenage puppy love can linger like nobody’s business, and he presented me with this neat little package of “reclaim my depressing adolescence and recycle it into true love.”

    You know what I did? I turned his ass down, because whether or not I knew, liked, or cared about his wife, he made that choice, he sealed that commitment, she would always be a part of things, and even if she “let him,” sharing a man with some random lady who may or may not have been coerced into this agreement was Weird. Then I made my crazy ass put the phone down and go find something to do that directly improved my life and my health.

    That shit was painful, and I’m embarrassed to say I’m still not over him or it, for reasons that are bizarre and opaque and incomprehensible to me. But I’m glad I never got with him, I’m glad I never went there, I’m glad I told him directly that this wouldn’t fly with me, and I’m glad I kept looking for a man who was right for me and my life.

    What I’m trying to say isn’t, “look at me, look how much better I am than these people,” but rather “I know how it is and I’m telling you that you can still have aaaaaaaall that emotional transformation and turmoil and shit with WAY less mess, less strings attached, and way fewer people hating you if you just kind of let yourself suffer for a while WITHOUT the affair part”

    I guess this was messier than it was meant to be, I’m not sure if I conveyed what I mean, or even what I mean to convey. It’s just aggravating to have read so many justifications of getting with married people (I have chained UBT articles for like, half a day at this point) knowing damn well that it’s not, like, a NEED to go for it. Even if you have all kinds of emotions and history and shit. They are YOUR emotions. He does not feel them. He does not care. He made his choices before you arrived on, or returned to, the scene. If you have a real connection, maybe that can become evident after he divorces and takes a year or two off to find himself and shit. There is no need to personally disrupt a marriage. Man, idk.

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