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Why Does He Keep Changing His Mind About Reconciliation?

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chasing unicornDear Chump Lady,

Why did it take two months after D-Day for my husband of 19 years to come to me crying, apologizing and saying there is no-place else he would rather be than home with me?

He left me and my son two months before D-day. I felt it was all a load of crap and avoided him for the next two weeks while he continued to cry and sleep in his car in my driveway. Then all of a sudden, POOF it stopped, why?

He completely changed and said he was fine, why? That was a month ago and since then I had a change of heart (temporary) and asked him to come home. His answer was no, (WTF?). He felt he would rather go on a date instead. He said he didn’t think he is strong enough to handle the way things would be because of what he did.

I think I’m losing it. How much twisting of my mind can he do? I actually asked him to spend the night twice this month to be with his son (sleep on the couch) and he said no-thank you, I’d rather not because it might be too confusing for our son (16). Also, he says he has been finished with the OW for two months.

Seriously I’m about to stab him in the neck with an ice pick only I don’t have one. What the hell is going on?????

Debbie

Dear Debbie,

Stop trying to untangle the skein of fuckupedness. Who cares what is going on in his mind? Ask yourself — is this relationship acceptable to YOU? He had an affair and he walked out on you. Whether he’s still with the OW or they broke up doesn’t matter. He abandoned you and your son, refuses to work on the marriage, or see his son. What exactly here do you think you have to work with?

His pitiful latter day “sorry”? That didn’t last terribly long.

For what it’s worth, my guess is he’s probably still in his affair or dating. He would prefer the narrative in which he’s not a cheater, so he says the OW isn’t in the picture. He’s Not Such a Bad Person. He’d probably also prefer to not sleep in the driveway or on a sofa.

Look, I think he’s a crapweasel, but he has a point that returning to sleep at home would be confusing to your son. Your son is a teenager. They can grab a bite to eat, go see a movie. Dad sleeping over is more about you trying to preserve the appearance of familial normalcy. And this shit isn’t normal. Dad walked out. Dad is dating. Those are good signs you should be seeing a divorce attorney, not fluffing the pillows awaiting his return.

And sleeping over isn’t about your son, Debbie, it’s about YOU. It sounds like you threw him out and then had second thoughts about that. Perhaps, at some level, you enjoyed him doing the pick me dance for you, feigning his apologies and sleeping in the driveway trying to prove himself. You wouldn’t be the first chump to think those tears are for you and signified True Remorse.

When you took him at his word, that there is “no place he’d rather be” than home with you — he poofed. So, Debbie, it wasn’t real remorse. It was genuine imitation naugahyde remorse. It’s time to trust that he sucks.

See, the problem with most cheaters, is that they don’t stay gone. They boomerang for kibbles. Perhaps the OW threw him out, perhaps there’s more than one OW, maybe the air mattress got deflated. Who knows? But he came back because he wanted something from you — cake, a bed to sleep in, sympathy for the affliction of his stupidity — and you asserted yourself. You said no. So, he eventually figured you couldn’t be played and he went looking for a new sucker.

Now, if he were really, truly remorseful, he would not have put you in that position. He could’ve asked respectfully to work on the marriage, stayed nearby, been transparent, gone to counseling, provided immediate temporary support orders. There were many ways he could’ve demonstrated his sorry other than some sit-down strike in your driveway.

He didn’t do those things. When you caved, when you relented to have him back — he met your vulnerability with more mindfuckery.

Nowhere in your letter do you say he’s been direct with you. “I want a divorce. Let’s work out a settlement.” No, he speaks in mixed messages. He wants his family back. He doesn’t want to “confuse” anyone. He’s not “strong” enough to handle reconciliation. (Poor sausage.)

Mixed messages are to goad you into the pick me dance. “Please come home!” or “I won’t make demands of you in reconciliation, if you’re feeling weak!”

In other words, he’d like you to beg him back into cake-eating.

Don’t do it, Debbie. Face that he’s given you NOTHING to work with here, and lawyer up. (((Big hugs)))

This one ran before.

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Ask Chump Lady

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  • As someone who didn’t insist that Cheater leave after DDay, Pick-Me danced and meted out no real consequences for his actions. I cheer CLs advise.

    During this time in my situation, Cheaters behavior/words (which I was trying to use to untangle the skein) changed by the minute – he was like swirling smoke that morphed right in front of me into something new and never returned to his previous form.

    Too many of us missed the moment when it was clear that There Was Nothing ToWork With which indicated we should cut bait and go full-on self protection mode. My continued dancing was much more dangerous than I was willing to admit at the time, I could have lost everything and it all gave my kids way too many mixed messages.

    • 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻Ditto what she said…..

      After 18 weeks of being whipsawed by XH of 25 years and abused by his mindfuckery and gaslighting and love bombing alternating with blameshifting rage after Dday I told him to GTFO and I set boundaries: no contact and no chance of reconciliation until he signed a post-nup giving me 80% of assets and maintenance for life; treatment for him and abstinence from drugs (prescribed adderral and marijuana daily) and alcohol for a year; individual counseling for him to figure out why he took those actions (now I know that therapy doesn’t change bad character🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️); and polygraphs to prove he wasn’t using or cheating. When I made it crystal clear I was serious he RAGED. No remorse, no action. I had nothing to work with. I divorced and got all property (80% of assets). Fast forward 6 years. He’s still exactly the same— cheating on AP, lying, miserable and stuck on one of the three narc channels — charm, self pity, rage. Terrible relations with our kids. Good riddance!

      • That is a mighty boundary. I wish I had been like that instead of letting myself be steamrolled. Good for you! These kinds of long term stories are so important for the newbies.

      • Wow! What a settlement. Congrats! You must not be in a no-fault state. Mine lied and gaslighted through the divorce, using the nastiest lawyer in town. I would not fold during mediation, when they had the gall to LOWER their offer the night before mediation. I told my lawyer I’d feel abused all over again and would rather go to court. In the end he folded AND rejected an offer for a fixed spousal support amount. Now he’s paying 32% more. (Funny, I had more faith in his potential income than he did.). He’s living large with the OW, while I’ve downsized. But I have a better life now. At 60, I’m deciding how I want to live the last third of my life. And it’s not on a golf course in Idaho!

        • It’s much better to be free of the turmoil and lies, even if they look like they through financially ok. It doesn’t matter. I don’t have the heavy weight of covering for him. Phew!

    • Yep. I let the asshole come back not long after he legally filed. I still can’t believe I did that. Asshole, was cold as ice, but I guess I was still in a “fog” of sorts, or shock.

      Anyway, it lasted three days, he treated me like shit; then said he couln’t get his feelings back. Asshole just wanted to get in my house so he could use our car for his politicking. Oh he never admitted to that; but it became clear to me at about the three day mark.

      He moved in on Sunday, and every day after work he would take the car and politic. I don’t know but am guessing that way he could tell the neighbors we were getting back together. Also, he could not use his police car to politic.

      That is how little regard he had for me as a human being. I am sure the mayor told him to get it done, and as he was desperately trying to save his Captains bars, he jumped. Note: Mayor demoted his ass a couple months later.

      He tried at least a couple times later on to come back, but I said nope. You chose the whore; deal. He was likely only trying to get her to up her game anyway. I imagine once we were legally separated the sex was getting kind of routine. No more sneaking and duping to be enjoyed.

  • Great post but the best line is so clarifying: “he met your vulnerability with more mindfuckery”. Really, really perceptive!

  • The extra tell on top of all the other tells: “He said he didn’t think he is strong enough to handle the way things would be because of what he did.“

    He wants easy. He was waiting to see if you would give him easy. Good on you that you didn’t.

    Divorce is hard but it’s so much better than spending your one and only life with human garbage.

    • Divorce is hard!
      But the water’s fine once you get used to it. So much better than being anxious on the dock.

    • I divorced my Fuckwit after learning of his affair with coworker.
      Went to the courthouse and got the paperwork and did it myself.
      He had done the same thing to his previous wife and family
      He split from her and changed his job. He tried for a year to date me.
      Horrible, gross year of struggle which is painful, especially for the chump
      I just could not see him the same nor respect him again.
      Finally he moved away to another state stating that
      “You could never love me again, I wand unconditional love”
      Its just a way that they again dump the guilt on you for being unable to swallow the shit sandwich
      Sorry, love is conditional

      • The EX told me, “I need someone who admires me. You dont admire me anymore.” Well, he was right about that!

    • Married 35 years, 3 grown kids. Many wasted years.

      Not sure what outcome you are imagining might happen by pick me dancing more, or what you think you’re really teaching your son by “trying” to keep the show going…

      OR if you’re stuck on the WHY IS HE DOING THIS channel, which I spent a DECADE staring at, trying to untangle the f- up skein that is my ex. But as CL says, you have nothing real to work with here.

      Your confusion about his choices is not HIS problem. He’s being pretty clear and in HIS eyes, “not cruel” since he won’t come out and say he just doesn’t want to be married IF it means not screwing “dating” OWs. He BEHAVES that way but won’t say it out loud. So ignore what he says/does not say. Solely focus on whether YOUR NEEDS are being met and the answer is “nope”.

      **2 points to make***

      1) When the cheater wants to be guaranteed a “zero consequences” WELCOME HOME, you have nothing to work with.

      You would be teaching him that YES he CAN indeed do whatever the hell he wants without consequences, and you’re not allowed to ever bring anything painful to YOU-

      because HIS feelings and HIS comfort and HIS “strength” is all that counts.

      That is a shit sandwich that is actually bigger than the one you’ve already been eating. UGH.

      KNOW THIS – There is NO good outcome to his returning (which is unlikely to happen anyway)

      and there is NO good outcome for YOU or your son, continuing to engage with him. Or pretending that there’s a realistic possibility of salvaging this marriage.

      2)

      Asking “WHY??” was the single biggest waste of time of my life. And it’s my biggest regret about the many years (yes, YEARS) I’ll never get back.

      Learn from us. Please let me believe someone is benefiting from the most painful life lessons I’ve had.

      You won’t get a “good answer” to the “WHY??”

      BECAUSE There is NO GOOD ANSWER. Stop the “asking WHY??” Loop. It’s your life and you can get yourself off this fruitless painful cycle.

      To quote Carolyn Myss and her prayer:

      **”God, help me let go of the need to know why. There is No why. And endless questioning is endless suffering.”**

      • True that asking “WHY?” is the biggest waste of your life. In fact, asking them ANY questions is an invitation for lies and abuse.

        I asked myself the “WHY?” question a million times mostly because I was NOT ready for the answer. The answer was “I don’t love you and Im a huge selfish asshole”.

        Newbies can take every word salad mess they hear and know that they really mean “I don’t love you and Im a huge selfish asshole’

      • DOCTOR’s1stWife&3Kids

        ‘Please let me believe someone is benefiting from the most painful life lessons I’ve had.’

        I am benefiting from your painful life lessons. Thank you. You’ve helped me find my strong. I’ve had many light bulb moments due to your writings. I’m glad I found this site, I’m glad I found CN… My sanity has been saved.

    • Great reply CCC,
      My exH also wanted ‘easy’ but in a different way.
      He told me “It’s easier to start again with X then try and sort things out with you”. I wonder if X knows he picked her for the easier option ?!
      I was speechless but then I remember the immortal line “When someone shows you who they are, believe them”.

  • I am selling my house that I was awarded in the divorce. In cleaning out the closet, I found notes of phone calls I had with the cheater in which he begged me to reconcile. At the time, I could not understand why he would waste our time and emotions if he was not sincere.

    If I could visit my then-self from the future, I would tell her what was actually motivating him. He was working overseas and his contract had not yet been renewed. OW’s sister had outed him to me. Including the fact that he had been siphoning money from our accounts to pay OW when she began to blackmail him. (Of course, he refused to see her very practical financial motives in involving herself with a clueless American.). He was trying to cover his bases in case he had to come back to the US. Within a few weeks, his contract was renewed and he was right back sending money to OW.

    Your husband is only upset that he is facing consequences for his immature, embarrassing behavior. You need to protect yourself and your son from seeing him as a person with more maturity and better character than he has, by extracting him and his childish self-pity from your house. Fortunately, your son is a teenager and is already focusing on his own, independent life. Your correct response of anger and incredulity shows that you will get there, too.

  • Note that he is confusing EVERYBODY and DOES NOT CARE.

    This is not what love is. This is what abuse is. Many confuse LOVE and ABUSE. Many confuse VIOLENCE and LOVE.

    Con artists use “nice” to reel in targets and gain their trust. It’s manipulation, power, and control. Cheaters (also con artists, but familiar ones) use “nice” in the very same way. I didn’t see the writing on wall because I was standing with my nose an inch from it. That’s why most of us can’t see until we get some time and distance and minimize or eliminate contact with the cheater.

    He is confused. Don’t you be. Be smarter and wiser than the cheaters and learn to run from the Kryptonite that they are.

    • The domestic violence facility where I live considers cheating a form of domestic violence (abuse). I agree. The mental torture shared by Debbie is evidence of that.

      Calling it what it is has helped me unhook.

      Cheating is abuse.

      Write it, say it. Put it on Post It noted all over the house and in the car. It takes a while to sink in because of the history of manipulative “nice.”

      Just the other day (we are three years post DDay and almost finished with the divorce), he brought me a bag of lettuce from his garden that he picked for me. Oh! How nice! How sweet! How thoughtful!

      How fake.

      NICE GUYS/GALS DON’T LIE.

      • Ah so very true. I have a “nice” FW who cheated when I was pregnant and divorced me when our kid was 3 months old. But now? Oh now he expects me to believe he’s nice. Everyone thinks he’s nice. He makes thoughtful gestures akin to the lettuce you received like dropping off loads of extra diapers to daycare for all to see just how nice he is. His disadvantage is that he’s so incredibly shallow in his niceness that it’s not believable after a time. I fell for it for a while but it was a short lived marriage for a reason.

        They are con artists.

        • Glad you see it for what it is. Note that ‘nice’ is a public display aka ‘image management’

      • Calling it dv helped me unhook as well. And understanding that abusers don’t necessarily or even mostly choose “weak” targets helped even more. The current clinical dv model and updated victimology that debunk the old “drawn to abuse/takes two to tango” view is particularly liberating.

        To paraphrase a line from “Frankie and Johnny in the Clair de Lune” (play or film), sometimes we’re messed up by the shit that happens to us as adults even if we didn’t have such bad childhoods.

        There is SOOO much victim blaming in our culture that it would be a full time occupation to prevent internalization of every little scrap of it. In my situation, my shame over feeling paralyzed after being blindsided by a FW was– ironically–one of the biggest factors in continued paralysis.

        Sometimes I relate more to male chumps just in the sense that the expectations I’d grown up with to be “strong and free” gave betrayal an extra dose of humiliation. Another literary reference from Thomas Hardy’s Far from the Madding Crowd goes something like “When a strong woman recklessly throws away her strength she is worse than a weak woman who has never had any strength to throw away.”

        What tf had happened to me? Then of course I wasn’t spared the special biases shown to she-chumps either.

        It took awhile to catch up in my processing. I’d fallen behind because life hadn’t given me a chance to breathe for so long.

        I think I got good guidance from childhood. When I started dating, my mother told me about the “Pushmi-Pullyu” from the old Dr. Dolittle. https://youtu.be/EkbaOUxBmMw

        Please forgive the culturally insulting bits in the film clip. I think making a native South American character a doctor was as woke as they could manage in the sixties.

        Anyway, my mother was sharing her generation’s pre-Twitter dating jargon for attachment disordered FWs. The power of concepts! I understood the message perfectly, it really sank in and I became hell on wheels in my single days.

        First bf played it too cool when I left for college. He had abandonment issues obviously, but I wasn’t a skein untangler then. I probably would have stuck by him if he hadn’t copped a shrugging attitude. But after taking his attitude to heart for five minutes, I just began seeing other people. By the time he proposed it was too late. I was off on a new life.

        Second bf in college said he was having second thoughts about his ex at Tufts. I was totally head over heels, but then accepted an invitation by handsome young actor friends to go to Italy to see a film being made. It was an epic trip and I was treated honorably (unlike the ex had warned me), made great friends, met my mentor and secured my first big media internship.

        Third bf had to travel to Europe for work and didn’t write or call often enough. Had he written and called more, I probably would have remained devoted. I broke up with him by phone message, then accepted a friend’s free frequent flier ticket to hang out in the Caribbean at her friend’s dad’s beach condo where we went snorkling, beaching, water skiing and read books about commitmentphobia and maintaining standards, integrity and independence, etc.

        When I was harassed by workplace creeps, I went nuclear as I was coached to do all my life.

        So imagine my crushing, paralyzing shame when, after 20 years of marriage and three kids, I found myself waffling in the face of a FW’s Pushmi-Pullyu bs after D-Day. Ugh. It was so unlike me, I wasn’t raised to eat shit and my own spinelessness crushed me.

        But obviously in my young dating life I wasn’t bound by kids in common, tangled finances and decades of being gradually boiled like a frog and socially isolated both by circumstances (chronically ill middle child, ill-advised move to a stuffy burb, relocation out of horrible stuffy burb, extended family drama over relatives’ mistreatment of sick kid, my total and utter caretaker exhaustion and leaving workforce to home school and recover sick kid); and by design (FW never encouraging mutual couple friendships, FW using my exhaustion and our difficulty finding childcare for ailing kid to keep his family away from his work world to set stage for eventual double life, the financial deception that kept my life rather limited, etc.).

        Right before D-Day, I found a feminist activist therapist who headed her university’s rebel therapy faction, understood the paralyzing power of victim blaming and who had been cheated on herself. She gave me a blood transfusion. She was funny. She admitted to occasionally watching “Cheaters” for a laugh. She viewed cheating as a form of intimate partner violence that could, all on its own, reduce a strong person to a bleeding heap. She produced graphs showing the unpaid economic value of my role as fulltime caretaker. She explained how chronic gesture warfare, subtle DARVO and gaslighting can cause captor bonding and ego collapse in the toughest people. When that DRVO message doubles down on the cultural biases you’re already inundated with, it can break you.

        It helped me get off my own back. The dv model is essential.

        • Thanks Hell of A … for expanding on your story. I find all of your comments full of great info and so well written and insightful. I was a Thomas Hardy fan in my youth. And became an ill fated ” heroine?” I wonder about all that now- so completely shit eating were his female characters. Not that that wasnt real. Most women in history have occupied that role. But its not something to emulate.

        • What a story! Thank you so much for helping me work through my shame. I, too, am feminist AF and always have been. I honestly think the FW took pride in bringing me to my knees. I was paralyzed and made some bad decisions as a result. But I didn’t pick-me dance, and I didn’t give him control, so I’m proud of that part. Anyway, I’m a fan of Victorian lit, so your Hardy reference also resonated. If you haven’t already read it, I highly recommend Ethan Frome by Edith Wharton. It’s a wonderful story about cheating, with a wickedly happy ending for Chumps. Ms. Wharton was quite sharp.

        • HellOfAChump

          I remember shortly after dday and friend took me clothes shopping. She had know me pre-marriage and knew who I had been.

          I walked through the store overwhelmed – I had made my own clothes for years to save $$$ etc – long story that is extremely similar to yours including homeschooling –

          anyway,

          my friend, noticing my state of anxiety, so she led me to the changing rooms and stationed me there. She quickly disappeared and after awhile she began to bring me clothes to try on.

          After many tries she was able put together an outfit that hit the nail on the head. For the first time in maybe 30 years I was suddenly face to face with the me I had know before marriage.

          I cried on our drive home. I simply couldn’t remember when ‘I had lost me’.

          Looking back now I realize that what I took to be vulnerability in him was actually weakness.

          I am incredibly grateful that I am a lone caretaker despite the caretaker fatigue.

          I didn’t have a wonderful therapist nor the funds to pay one if one had presented herself in my life.

          What I did have was a band of warrior friends who could clearly see what I couldn’t. They stuck to me like glue and NEVER left my side. All were available 24/7 and they still are.

          CL and CN educated me in a way I never imagined I needed educating but it took awhile for me to find you all. I was deeply lost in the RIC camp for at least a year after dday.

    • Cheating is an asshole move. Period. End of story. End of mirage (marriage). There is nothing accidental about it. It is intentional, targeted, Cat 5 abuse. I’ve spent most of my life on people who said they loved me but didn’t act like it. The rest of my life will be about me
      loving me, which starts with launching any more people whose words and actions show they don’t love me.

      • “There is nothing accidental about it.”

        It’s unfortunate that we use the expression: “fall in love.” It implies a lack of agency.
        My ex runs with this narrative. “They fell in love. Forces outside of his control (Cupid? Eros?) struck, and, as mere mortals, they couldn’t possibly resist. And they tried mightily to end it. She even switched jobs, but you can’t stop love!!! Spinach, that unforgiving bitch, just wasn’t making me ‘happy’ anymore.”

        Swiss friends are buying what he’s selling. Fortunately, they are in the minority. Turns out a lot of people know BS when they see it. Oh, and I’m sure it didn’t help my ex’s cause that his people skills suck. He’s a high-IQ, low-EQ, passive-aggressive, entitled, moody, unpleasant AF, covert narc. Tough to win friends and influence people with that personality profile. If I didn’t hate him so much, I’d almost feel sorry for him.

        • p.s. It was only when he confessed that I learned that he wasn’t tingling with marital happiness anymore. I don’t think it registered with him that having an AP on the side FOR YEARS had anything to do with his “unhappiness.” [Goes without saying that my unhappiness was never considered, even by ME.]

          The fact is, I think he was happy as a pig in shit–kibbles from two sources. Two sex partners. A wife who took care of everything (goddammit). He would have gone on future faking and abusing for as long as he could get away with it had he not gotten a little sloppy with his texting (sent our daughter a text intended for the AP) and had the AP not turned the commit-to-me screws by moving in with her parents who live thousands of miles away. He thought she was valiantly trying to end things; I think she was trying to get him to commit.

          Turns out he’s not the only one who’s good at manipulating others.

          God, I hope they have all the happiness they deserve.

          • ‘“They fell in love. Forces outside of his control (Cupid? Eros?) struck, and, as mere mortals, they couldn’t possibly resist. And they tried mightily to end it. She even switched jobs, but you can’t stop love!!! Spinach, that unforgiving bitch, just wasn’t making me ‘happy’ anymore.”
            ‘”p.s. It was only when he confessed that I learned that he wasn’t tingling with marital happiness anymore. I don’t think it registered with him that having an AP on the side FOR YEARS had anything to do with his “unhappiness.” [Goes without saying that my unhappiness was never considered, even by ME.]
            The fact is, I think he was happy as a pig in shit–kibbles from two sources. Two sex partners. A wife who took care of everything (goddammit). ”

            Spinach, I could have written this verbatim! They all use the same playbook, sheesh! At least it helps us trust they suck.

            • “fell in love”

              I have come to hate this whole idea. yes, it sounds like we have no control over it. First of all, you have to be somehow INVOLVED with a person to start to love them. As a married woman, if I started to feel intrigue about a man, that was a cute to get out of that social situation. This happened every few years and I did as I knew I should and the intrigue fizzled.

              I now don’t even say that I “fell in love” with my husband or even that were “in love”. I love my now husband and when Im so annoyed that I don’t feel love, I choose devotion.

          • “I don’t think it registered with him that having an AP on the side FOR YEARS had anything to do with his “unhappiness.”

            This is what annoys me because it shows how incredibly stupid they are. They don’t put any real work into the marriage, they don’t work to maintain it, they damage it with lies, they stomp on it and piss on it and invite other women in to stomp on it and piss on it too, then they use it to wipe the mud off their tires and they hold it up and scream,

            “LOOK AT THIS BROKEN WORTHLESS MARRIAGE, HOW COULD I BE HAPPY WITH THIS?!”

            Well gee dipshit, whose fault is that? It annoys the hell out of me. One of my switzerland friends who is now an acquaintance I gray rock told me that my ex really tried. I was like “How?! He lied to me daily for 20 years. He didn’t even do the bare minimum to maintain a marriage by being honest and communicating. He did not “try” at all.” She didn’t have anything to say to that.

            I swear, these cheaters were the children who maliciously broke their toys and then screamed at them for being broken. Correction, they still ARE those children.

            • He did try. He tried to destroy it and sabotage it and he succeeded.

              That’s what I say to that “I tried” horseshit.

            • OMG Katiepig,

              Yes, I could have written every word of that. He shat all over it then hated it because it had shit on it.

              Mine LITERALLY took our marriage certificate and wrote “rotten lousy marriage” on the paper. I showed it to my new husband and he was astonished.

              Yes, he broke it then hated me for it being broken

              • Wow. I laughed at him writing that on the marriage certificate not so much because it’s funny but because I can relate. They are mentally and emotionally children.

                I found a picture of a pig my ex husband had drawn on a page where he was breaking down what he thought he would be taking from our marriage. He wrote my name above it to make sure everyone would know it was me, I’m the pig.

                I found it after the divorce was final. I showed my boyfriend who said “he probably drew this while you were cooking him dinner!” And then he went to mocking him for it “goddamn pig, I’ll draw a picture, that’ll show her, better put her name on it so I remember it’s her, mutter mutter, where’s my dinner?!” They are just ridiculous, it’s on the level of “I’m starting an I hate Katie club, I’m putting a sign up list in the local grade school bathroom!” Oh noes! lol

              • Wow. I feel you.

                Mine made a fake certificate of nullification that looked so real that I called our church. “Hi, ummm, I’m calling to see if my marriage was annulled without me knowing about it? I have this paper here in front of me…” Secretary and I had a good laugh about it. He had just made it to prove to OW that we were divorced. To give her along side the engagement ring I found. DDay was fun. (Still not divorced, but coming soon!!!)

            • This is so true. It is utterly maddening. Mine does this “I haven’t been happy/you don’t meet my needs” mindfuck as if the fact that he is a serial cheater, never home, never attempting to legitimately fix anything or resolve any of our longstanding issues doesn’t contribute to our dismal marriage (2nd Dday just recently and now I understand he has been a serial cheater; working on divorce).

              But it’s not that they’re stupid. It’s that they’re entitled; they don’t feel like they should have to do any work; it should be easy. And so when it’s not “easy” anymore and has to mature in to a real partnership, because kids/work/life, they would rather just move on to the next easy relationship that doesn’t require any real adjustment or sacrifice or work on their part.

              • When everything has always come to them so easily, it’s sooo hard for the poor Timid Forest Creatures who want to “wunaway with the twuwuv” – waaaaah!!! To embrace the quite normally understood concept (in mature people that is) that a long term relationship of any sort does take effort and yes, sometimes actual work, is beyond the cheater’s capacity. They’re lazy, entitled, dysfunctional and solipsistic. It’s a bad combo!

    • Very well said, VH. Describes the cheater/con man I was married to. He has hardly any access to me now, and when I occasionally see him, he is a wreck. His source of joy and life is gone now- some female to con! I really think it will be the end of him, that’s how important it is. Pretty darn sick!
      Meanwhile, I have peace, and freedom. Aaaaah…

  • Following being busted for cheating (which she always denied despite incontrovertible proof … but then she would wouldn’t she) Ex-Mrs LFTT refused any suggestion that we work on the marriage. She also never once hinted at reconciliation; neither before nor after she left.

    In many ways I’m glad, because dumbass that I was, I would have probably tried … only to see her sabotage it and then blame me for it failing.

    LFTT

  • I guess the other woman begged off once he was free. Without the intrigue, it’s no fun. Or she never wanted him single. But he got a taste of strange and wants to keep going. So divorce him quick and get all you can. Drain the pond scum from your pool, Debbie.

  • At this point, I’d be happy to get Knave-man to sleep in his car in the driveway.
    He just won’t make his exit, or even stay on the boat, so I guess I’ll have to leave my home of 30-plus years. So hard.

    • Excuse me for asking, but have you filed for divorce? Are you seeking a temporary order that would not require you to live together? A final order that would give you the house? I am not a lawyer and guess these things vary state to state, but he shouldn’t be able to squat indefinitely, should he?

      • I’m in this position myself. Because I don’t have incontrovertible, fresh evidence of his adultery, the court won’t get involved and order him out. The only other thing that would force the court’s hand would be if I had evidence of DV. Meanwhile, unless I get beat up or hire a PI, I’m stuck in this situation.

        My saving grace is that FW is itchy to move to another city. I suspect he will make the leap in the next year. As the pandemic lifts, his opportunities to go increase and I can finally secure the house. I’m not giving up the house. I grit my teeth and keep hoping he’ll get the job offer he wants and be gone. There is that and one other factor keeping me stuck. My attorney commends me for being so patient.

        • I’ve been in this same situation for some time and hoping it will soon end. It has been terrible. Gather all the evidence you can, you never know what your attorney may find useful in your case in proving infidelity. Family law attorneys are so well versed in this they can smell a cheater. I’d be willing to bet if he’s itching to move to a new city the side chick is there.

      • No, Cake, this is all still relatively new to me and I have not yet filed. My attorney recommends that I stay in the house and proceed deliberately since we have a business together and I do not live in a no-fault state, which could ultimately result in me being awarded more than if I left right now. This hesitation is hindering me from being no-contact with Knave-man, which makes everything a little harder. But I’ll get to the other side ! Thank you for asking.

  • “You’ll never trust me again” it was one of the very few truths he told because he was so utterly untrustworthy. Nothing to work with indeed.

    • Mine kept saying, during our reconciliation, that “this marriage will never work because you can’t leave the past in the past–you have to trust me or this isn’t going to work!”

      I can’t believe how easily manipulated I was.

  • So, if I’m understanding the timeline correctly, within the span of four months he left, she found out he was cheating, he begged to come back and lived in her driveway, then fucked off again and said he doesn’t want to come back.

    He admitted to splitting with OW, so that’s the answer as to why he begged her to reconcile. It took two months after dday for him to want her to take him back because that’s when schmoopie kicked him to the curb.
    He stopped wanting to come back because he either found a new schmoopie or got back together with the old one and is lying about it.

    This is actually quite simple fuckwit behavior to decode. They can’t be alone and they turn into pathetic bawlbabies when they don’t have somebody to use. If they find someone, the chump they are begging for another chance with suddenly doesn’t exist.

    My fw wants me back, or so he he has been saying ever since dday, but I figure it’s because he has nobody else. If he finds somebody, (and pretty much anybody will do, his last schmoopie was a complete loser) that will come to a screeching halt. If you just assume they are full of shit and have a hidden agenda 24/7, you can avoid being confused by their mixed signals. It’s hard for us to comprehend their seemingly inconsistent behavior because we deal honestly with others and we can’t understand why these tricksters don’t just do that. If you start with the premise that they are always playing people and lying, there actually is a consistency to the behavior.

  • The turning point is when I shifted my chumpy focus to making up MY mind about what I want and did reality match it? A resounding NO….in neon flashing flaming letters visible from space.

    I would never date a married man. Why would I want to be married to a man who dates? Traitors are ideally matched with cheating accomplices.

      • I wonder too, maybe deep down but then the thought is quickly changes to how terrible we are.
        They live in an alternate universe.

        • I think a lot of them convince themselves we are terrible people and deserve it. I think that’s how they justify it to themselves. One of my ex’s OW actually said in front of me that our son cannot be my ex husband’s child. Our son is 20. She was 12 years old and living across the country and had never met myself nor my ex when he was conceived and born. But somehow she is the authority on what was happening to my adult vagina at that time.

          It’s just completely ridiculous, my ex was the one sleeping with hundreds of people behind my back throughout our 20 year marriage but I’m the slut who needs to be publicly smeared and shamed. I just laughed and walked away, she’s not worth a response. It was hard though to have to tell my son what is being said so he isn’t blindsided by it. So she did succeed in hurting me by attacking my child. And I guess she justifies that by convincing herself and attempting to convince others that the young man she’s attacking is not her twu wuv’s child. It’s so disordered and just sticky gross how they think.

          • hundreds? literally? wow

            There is so much I don’t know, but if I had to put money on a guess, I would say maybe 15. When I get to Purgatory, I think he is gonna be there with Jesus looking over his shoulder insisting that he tell me. Oddly enough, I really do want to know. If there was a book with every betrayal in it, I would read it cover to cover. I know that might sound perverse to some but I would. I want to know what my life was.

            • Yeah, I think it’s probably hundreds literally. He was doing the Craigslist hook ups and swingers clubs and sex parties. He would even stop at glory holes on his way home from work. I found empty packages of boats in his car. He was talking it pretty much daily. It was shocking.

              I dealt with his erectile dysfunction for the last ten years of our marriage but now realize he probably just had nothing left for me. That hurt while it was happening but I thought he couldn’t help it. Once I started finding out what he was doing I was grateful for it. He could be crawling with disease at this point but I’m ok.

              I get wanting to know. I’d still like to know everything, as painful as it is I value the truth. I was totally honest with him while he lied to me constantly. I do hope there’s judgment for that. I’d read that book too.

              • I have always valued truth but learning that I lived a 29 year lie has made me have profound hatred for lies.

                I don’t think that he cheated after he moved back home (the last 5 years of his life) and I think he spent time knowing he had to continue to hide all he did because I would be HORRIFIED to learn the truth.

                One day soon after the “Tiger Woods screws waitresses” story broke big (but way before I learned of the serial cheating) I told Cheater “Tiger committed biohazards rape…his wife did not consent to marital sex with a person she knew was exposed to disease and sex without consent is rape”… he made a very strange face and stomped away. I thought his reaction was because he idolized TW…I had ZERO suspicion at that point that he had been a serial cheater.

                I also agree that they convince themselves that we are horrible people and deserve it. Looking back, I am not sure that all those times when he went from tolerable to “asshole on wheels” was when he started some new adultery.

                For years I walked on eggshells trying to do things perfectly to avoid his wrath…sometimes, though, he was so angry that the smallest thing would set him off…he picked out house and when I first saw that the laundry was I a small space between the kitchen and garage, I made a mental note that he would NOT be OK with clothes there all the time, so I did laundry very efficiently and put it away so that piles of clothes wouldn’t bother him. One day, there was an empty laundry basket in the laundry room on laundry day. He came bursting out raging and he drop kicked the basket.

                I didn’t often speak back to him when he got like that (it only made him worse) but that day I decided to give it back to him. I said “Hey, when you go to your Husbands of Bitches meeting, be sure to tell them I had a laundry basket in the laundry room”.

                There was SO much abuse that I just speckled over for years.

            • About a week ago I found a notebook with a list of women’s names on the outside of the back cover. It was clearly chronological and my name wasn’t even near the bottom. Some names had a number of months or years next to them. I know the names of some of the OW he slept with and they were not on the list. Others were there. It wasn’t just a list of those he slept with. That would have been much longer. This must be a list he keeps of the women he thinks he has had a relationship with. It turned my stomach. There were no other details and it was enough to nauseate me the rest of the day.

              I value truth but I still feel so grossed out knowing I was ever intimate with a man who is such a ho. Yuck. Kudos to anyone who could stomach knowing more. At this point, I would only want more information so I could depose them all and negotiate a better settlement. When I think of him and don’t think “meh,” all I can think is how gross he is. Makes me want to Lysol everything.

  • “Now, if he were really, truly remorseful, he would not have put you in that position. He could’ve asked respectfully to work on the marriage, stayed nearby, been transparent, gone to counseling, provided immediate temporary support orders.”

    Has anyone had this unicorn?

    • Not me. I put so many conditions on our reconciliation and none of them were ever met. Even worse, when I pushed for some of them to be met (“Why haven’t you started going to therapy yet?” (Not for us, just for him)) he would get very angry and I would drop it immediately.

    • Absolutely not! Mine refused to do find my friend, open his cells phones, unlock his laptops, and quit locking his vehicle like a vault. I also asked for the truth. He refused all, I gave him a month while I waited on my initial consult with the attorney. He never did it.

  • Debbie it’s for the best he stays moved out. It’s not a good idea to have someone that hates you and doesn’t care if they do things that will hurt you when discovered in your house while you and your son are sleeping. Like most chumps the way the ex behaved was completely unpredictable and they don’t deserve the chump’s trust.

  • They come back when their fantasy bubble breaks, when they’re not in a relationship with an affair partner, when they have no one, etc etc.

    My X left me, initially (months after I gave birth to our second child), for a young girl. He couldn’t stop gushing about her (to me!): he was “finally in love”; he had “found his soulmate”; he “couldn’t wait for the three of us to be friends like Demi Moore, Ashton Kutcher, and Bruce Willis” (I was cast as Willis); etc etc. It was insane.

    That relationship crashed and burned. Then he moved in with another girl (this one I never met). That crashed and burned too.

    So guess who showed up on my doorstep of my new home that I had purchased for myself and the kids? (Okay, a crappy little one bedroom shack built in the 50s but it was a home and I had found a way to afford the mortgage for it as a single mom with two babies!) Guess who wanted to “give it another try?”

    He said he was so lonely. He said he had even thought of killing himself. He was at a Thanksgiving supper with friends of his parents and he looked around the table at all the families and couples and realized that he had no one, that he had brought it on himself, and that he had thrown away the best thing that had ever happened to him. He came to me, to my house, in full supplication and asked for a reconciliation.

    I was an idiot in love and I took him back. After a few months of “dating,” he moved out of his apartment and into my house. Then he got tired of being around me and the kids in such a small house all the time. Then he started spending hours at night chatting with a new friend he had met. Then he fell in love with her, packed his bags, and moved into her house with her and her son. It was the very definition of a false reconciliation. He just needed a safe place to stay and a soft place to land until he figured out his next move. He knew I would take him back and I did.

    I was still heartbroken but this time I wasn’t surprised.

    In short, they boomerang back because they know they can (that door isn’t closed and locked; it’s still open a crack!) and they come back at their lowest points because they need a soft landing for a moment. They don’t intend to stay.

  • they come back when their fantasy bubble breaks, when they’re not in a relationship with an affair partner, when they have no one, etc etc.

    My X left me, initially (months after I gave birth to our second child), for a young girl. He couldn’t stop gushing about her (to me!): he was “finally in love”; he had “found his soulmate”; he “couldn’t wait for the three of us to be friends like Demi Moore, Ashton Kutcher, and Bruce Willis” (I was cast as Willis); etc etc. It was insane.

    That relationship crashed and burned. Then he moved in with another girl (this one I never met). That crashed and burned too.

    So guess who showed up on my doorstep of my new home that I had purchased for myself and the kids? (Okay, a crappy little one bedroom shack built in the 50s but it was a home and I had found a way to afford the mortgage for it as a single mom with two babies!) Guess who wanted to “give it another try?”

    He said he was so lonely. He said he had even thought of killing himself. He was at a Thanksgiving supper with friends of his parents and he looked around the table at all the families and couples and realized that he had no one, that he had brought it on himself, and that he had thrown away the best thing that had ever happened to him. He came to me, to my house, in full supplication and asked for a reconciliation.

    I was an idiot in love and I took him back. After a few months of “dating,” he moved out of his apartment and into my house. Then he got tired of being around me and the kids in such a small house all the time. Then he started spending hours at night chatting with a new friend he had met. Then he fell in love with her, packed his bags, and moved into her house with her and her son. It was the very definition of a false reconciliation. He just needed a safe place to stay and a soft place to land until he figured out his next move. He knew I would take him back and I did.

    I was still heartbroken but this time I wasn’t surprised.

    In short, they boomerang back because they know they can (that door isn’t closed and locked; it’s still open a crack!) and they come back at their lowest points because they need a soft landing for a moment. They don’t intend to stay.

    Don’t be like I was, Debbie. Don’t keep that door held open for him.

    • Fourleaf, i hate that guy and what he did. Every time i read your comments i think ..”what an amazing person” … please keep going. Don’t look back

  • This is right on time for me. My cheater won’t leave our home despite that we are just days from mediation. Just last week he started wanting to hug me and acting affectionate, he said “don’t you like it, you act indifferent.” I told him I’d prefer he didn’t that he cheated and lied and it just makes it confusing. His rebuttal was that I should want him and act affectionate to him!! I know I shouldn’t have been in shock but I was, I saw that was what he wanted all along. He was just trying to keep me in his web. They really will do anything for kibbles. The game of confuse the victim back into their web must be a go to for cheaters.

    • No mystery here: you’re “just days from mediation,” and he wants to soften you up to accept his terms. It’s all manipulative self-interest.

      Been there, seen through that!

      • Makes perfect sense!! I’ve been his doormat for nearly 20 years, it’s his way or no way.

        What’s odd is that like he always does, he flipped back to his evil personality. Trying to set up conversations with loaded texts to make me appear crazy. All just fake and lies. It’s just exhausting, time for the ow to see what prize she’s won! Lol!

        • It’s the mindfuck channel: charm, self pity, rage.

          It’s what narcissistic abusers do.

          ‘Gray rock’ is the best – indeed the only – response. You can google it and learn this emotional self defence technique.

    • “Just last week he started wanting to hug me and acting affectionate, he said “don’t you like it, you act indifferent.””

      Longtime Chump – This is really disturbing to me and smacks of being degrees away of potential sexual assault. He’s getting in your physical space, trying to touch you, taunting you with barbs such as “Don’t you like it?”. He doesn’t respect your lack of response as an answer that his advances are unwelcome. He tells you that you should want him as if he’s God’s gift. He’s pulling power moves on you.

      Of course you are in shock. This is threatening behaviour and you are getting stuck in freeze mode. He is a predator circling around you. He refuses to leave the house so that he can continue to force himself into your personal space. Where are you supposed to go to be safe? Your home certainly isn’t.

      If you are forced to stay, please, please take precautions to guard your safety. Do not sleep in the same bed. Sleep in a locked room. Make it clear to him that you have no interest in engaging with him and that any attempt he makes to touch you will be construed as a threat. Create some boundaries for the house about what is to be your space and what should be his space. Start separating your things from his. Keep a family member or friend on standby with a code word if you need help.

      At the risk of sounding hysterical, I am very worried for you. I know a woman who attempted to leave a marriage (he wasn’t cheating though and had never been physically assertive with her) and he kept trying to force affection to “tempt” her back. It resulted in a full on sexual assault because “he loves her so much.” Of course, this was something that she never would have thought he would do. Yet, it happened.

      Be careful.

      I encourage you to go somewhere else if you can.

    • I’m so sorry you’re going through this. Mine did this. He wanted to live out our lease and be friends after he told me he wanted to kill me and had fantasized about it for years and he hated me and tore me down for my age and my looks. That happened July of 2020 and our lease wasn’t up until April 2021. I had to make a deal with him to get him out September 2020. Then I went full no contact. It was a horrific 2 months. I was lucky that I found a good lawyer and he gave me a bunch of tips and negotiation strategies to get the divorce done and protect myself. He even had me pack a bag and put it in my car so I could flee if he got violent. He wanted me out of the apartment immediately but we had a son still living at home and I didn’t want to make it harder on him. It was so hard though, I lost 30 pounds in 3 weeks and got 10 pounds below my skinny teenage weight. I felt like I was dying. And FW would come home from work like nothing had happened and then want to tell me about his day and he’d get angry that I’d just stare at him instead of giving him his kibbles. It’s maddening.

      • I have heard this before. “You don’t ask me how my days was.” Well, IDGAF how your day was, klootzak. So it became a thing. Sit down to dinner and ask him how his day was. Proceed to tune him out and chew food. I had long since tired of hearing him pat his own back for being the only person at work who knew what he was doing. He just had to verbalize out loud that he was Mr. Wonderful and his employer was lucky to be graced with his presence. It was always the same. My eyes glazed over. I always wanted to say, “You’re a lying, cheating, sack of shit. No one is lucky to have you unless by lucky you mean bad luck.” He believes the world would stop spinning without him.

      • Its so hard, I know its a power play for these guys to refuse to leave. I have often felt like I am dying too. Glad to know others that made it to the other side.

  • After D-Day it’s hard to get your head around the fact that your spouse is not simply a cheater but also a liar and a con artist. Your brain is on overload. You’re trying to understand this person you thought you knew but that approach is pointless – I know because I tried to “understand” The Python.

    Trying to understand a con artist is a waste of time. Unless you’re one too you’ll never understand the ease with which they deceive and use people. Catching them once doesn’t mean they will stop trying to con you.

    • I remember when I thought he was “just” a cheater. That was a thousand trapdoors ago. It has taken me years to see that below the cheater is a pathological liar, a coward, a sadist, a weak man, a narcissist, a pervert, an actor, and a monster. He wasn’t a man who loved me who had a weak moment and flaws; he is a man who has zero empathy for me and I am not even fully human to him. Of all the things you watch your FW morph into, cheater is just the first and really the most human of the identities. Below that is some really scary shit. I wish I had known that on Dday.

      • PrincipledLife,

        This. YES.

        Almost 4 years out from dday and I am continually realizing stuff. I remember in the very early, early days when a woman in her 90’s shared with me that she had been divorced for over 50 years and was still discovering ‘surprises’…

        That conversation, brief though it was, set the stage for me to expect ‘long’ as does your post above.

        A process indeed and one that I don’t think I will ever see the end of and that is okay today due to NO CONTACT and great friends and CL and CN.

        Thanks for your sharing today.

      • PrincipledLife,

        You just described my experience. The era of believing that he had only cheated with Susan of Seattle was heart wrenching but I wanted my “family” back and allowed him to return…he was harsh and unrepentant upon his return which traumatized me as much as when he inflicted pain in the first place. Living with him for 5 years of wreckonciliation was mere survival.

        What you describe next…of learning and admitting all those other things to myself…yes 1000 trap doors. Having a tiny memory of a moment of abuse and finally admitting how bad it was…he did not see me as a human…I was to be used.

        When he first died, he was my “flawed beloved” who I missed terribly. Then I learned some truths and he was a “disloyal betrayer” in my mind. Now, I see him more like a person who committed crimes against me.

  • DD1 – Dec. 2016 – Learned from my small daughter that a woman had visited after bedtime when I was away for a work thing. Husband convinced me that it was a client for whom he had created some spreadsheets and was explaining how to use them. I believed him.

    DD2 – Mar. 2017 – We are in marriage counselling. I discover an email from him to the same woman telling her how much he misses her (she’s away for a week’s vacation) and that he’s shovelled her snow. I tell him to leave to a friend’s place to give me space. He sleeps there for three weeks though he’s home after work each day. We reconcile. He claims he only saw OW socially a few times and kissed once. He’s committed to marriage counselling (?).

    DD3 – Aug. 2017 – He tells me that he needs some space without seeing me to screw his head on straight without my influence. He bails on the family cottage vacation. I go on my own with the kids. A week later, I learn that he spent the weekend with OW at parent’s cottage with her parents and three children. He begs for my understanding and forgiveness. I stupidly give it to him.

    Oct. 2017 – He asks for a legal separation and leaves (I don’t know where). One week later, he swears he’s making the biggest mistake of his life in leaving me and swears to do all the counselling needed to save the marriage. I believe him. He comes home. We start new marriage counselling and do a couple’s therapy weekend away.

    DD4 – Dec. 2017 – I discover the secret email account between him and OW in which he details his plan to take time away from her to end things in the me properly so that he can leave to be with her but not have anyone blame them for having an affair. No mention of all the marriage counselling with me. It was all impression management, scheming to take attention away from the affair and legitimize the relationship down the road. He gets his own place and moves out.

    Debbie – See here? Boomerang. Why was he doing this? Likely because he was too big a coward to just leave the marriage on his own. He didn’t want to give up the benefits of marriage until he felt some security that something would be out there for him. God forbid that he should just be on his own, healing properly and redefining what a respectful relationship between the two of us apart would be. Nope, he wanted to monkey-branch into his affair relationship without losing his mask of being a good guy.

    After being jerked around for 13 months, to the detriment of my mental and physical health, once he got his own place and left, I finally put my foot down and went completely grey rock/almost no contact. I shut him down so completely that I saw his body physically jerk the first time I have him the non-committal cold shoulder upon pick-up of our kids. He got nothing from me – no conversation about anything that didn’t have to do with the kids. Most of that was done by email. And, for 3.5 years, it has been strictly business.

    His reaction? Wow! The first year was rough because he became vile. Once he realized that he wasn’t going to be able to extract any kibbles from me, he got so nasty.

    Shut him down and sit down with a bag of popcorn to watch the show to come. When they show you who they really are, believe them.

  • @OptionNoMore …. how sad and wondering if you ever divorced him? Truly the only way to make alot of the crazy end and save yourself. You were on the 4 month plan, I was on the 5 year plan with xh and after 31 yrs married I ended the kibble banquet. Its heartbreaking I understand. Especially the really GOOD liars, nice guys, daddy’s and whatever else they are scheming to use YOU and benefit themselves. We cannot fix them and you must save yourself. I waited WAY to long, you sound younger than I was but find that courage. These people are NOT NORMAL,

    Peace now for 5 years

  • Fireball – It was 13 months of desperately trying to save my marriage before he left to chase the other woman. Together a total of almost 15 years together. It’s been 3.5 years since he left. I divorced him and am now in the middle of an annulment (I’m Catholic). I bought him out of the marital home and then the housing market skyrocketed. The value has doubled. I have the kids 2/3 of the time as our son has Autism and needs more structure. They are now doing quite well, despite the pandemic. I’ve done a lot of counselling, firstly to deal with symptoms of PTS, and am now doing really great. I have fantastic relationships with family and friends, even my inlaws, who were appalled my ex-husband’s behavior.

    As for him. He still lives a double life. I believe he still stays with the OW on the days he doesn’t have the kids and only stays in his rental townhouse on the days with the kids. His family has never met this woman as they will never accept an adulterous relationship. His old friends have never met her as I still keep in touch with the wives. My kids have only seen her 7 or 8 times in these last years. It’s really a bizarre situation. But, it’s no longer phasing me. I’m not threatened by any of it anymore. My life is really good. And, I’m even reaching a point where I sometimes feels sorry for him. Not enough to be friends. It’s more lamenting the lost potential of this man. Life hasn’t really gone his way after all.

    So glad that you got out and sound like you are on the other side. You gave so many years yours. Hope tue best years are now here and yet to come.

  • Why? Because he ran a cost analysis and realized it is less expensive to HIS bottom line if he can yank you around and fuck with your head & heart.

    Put an end to it.

  • Why? Why doesn’t matter. Not your monkeys, not your circus.

    I used to be where you are now. I tried so hard to untangle that skein, to figure everything out, so I could, you know, “fix” it. Ha ha. Like so many others here, I was working from a severe deficit of information, mixed with truckloads of misinformation and outright lies. True information trickled in years later, long after it didn’t matter anymore. He was actively cheating and looking to cheat. I was plan B, C, or maybe even D.

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