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UBT: ‘Emotions at Many Times’

mindfuckHi Chump Lady,

I was wondering if the Universal Bullshit Translator could help me translate this one.

I was in a relationship for a year. Things had been good up to that point, but then he was liking very sexual photos of girls on his Instagram (girls that he knew) and began pushing me for things in bed that I had already said no to. When I said no, he would then hatefully pout. Worse, he would bring up sexual things he wanted when I was discussing other things that I was upset by with him.

My boyfriend then disappeared for a month, claiming he was confused about whether he “wanted children in the future”, and simultaneously claiming the “sparkle was gone”.

He then came back ‘sure’ he did want kids, but then asked for multiple partners because he was also “afraid he might cheat if he was with someone 10 years”.

Admittedly I am a chump because I believed he was just afraid because his father was a big-time cheater who had 22 kids in total….20 of which he didn’t support (I gave him lots of unwarranted FOO sympathy….ugh!)

Things were back to ‘normal’ for another 6 months, but when he wanted to move in together my anxiety went through the roof. I had a bad gut feeling and asked him directly if he had slept with someone during that month and turns out he did. I wanted him to go to therapy at first, and ran into him where I play volleyball, where he went completely silent and acted irritated with me. I then got this very apologetic explanation via text:

Hey Halfthecake,

Sorry for this evening, I wasn’t expecting to see you. You know I can’t talk when you ask me relationship questions. I blocked completely.

We have problems in our relationship and I know why they are there, its because of my behaviour and wrong thing that I had made. To be honest, I wasn’t feeling good about it, that’s why you know. I told you about OW, in that time I was confused about our relationship and I did wrong. I admit it. I learned about it and that is why today we are still together. It won’t happen again. I pushed you to have sex and experiment things that you didn’t like. It’s in the graveyard. You have to learn to say no when you don’t want in the moment. Yes I liked some girls’ pictures on instagram and quotes on Instagram while being in a couple with you. I admit that. That was stupid and it won’t happen again.

I know I have hurt your emotions at many times and know you get everything at the same time. I am really sorry Halfthecake from the bottom of my heart. I feel bad for hurting you and seeing you emotionally affected. I know that you would like to send your boyfriend to the therapist because he is the worst in the world so he deserves it, but thinking well I am not going to go. I feel that I have been better since all that. I think I am in the good way to be better working by myself. Take the time to think by yourself and process everything. I am not going to run away just give me your space to think and I will do the same by my side. Good night I think that was all.

I have decided to go no contact and could really use a laugh because I am traumatized. So many ‘friends’ of mine seem to have decided he is just polyamorous and needs a girl who will let him have partners on the side. (They seem to be missing the high he got off manipulating me and hiding it!).

Help me?

Halfthecake

Dear Halfthecake,

I promise to feed your ex-boyfriend’s drivel to the Universal Bullshit Translator, but first some flagellating with a wet noodle on your chumpiness. I’m glad you’ve gone no contact with this freak. But a primer on rookie mistakes to avoid going forward, okay?

So, to recap: he pushes your sexual boundaries and then punishes you afterward. Asshole. Were you considering dumping him at this point, and if not, why not? Then, he disappears. He has zero emotional maturity and ghosts people. Dealbreaker? Then… he comes back, but wants fuckbuddies on the side.

At each of these junctions, you could say, “You’re not the guy for me. Bye.”

Pay attention to who he IS, and not who you want him to be. He is a-okay being a flaming, withholding, silent treatment-inflicting jerk. You don’t have to work with that. You don’t have to understand its FOO issues or make it therapy appointments. You matter. Your preferences on fidelity, sex, basic respect MATTER.

Live your values. Speaking of which…

So many ‘friends’ of mine seem to have decided he is just polyamorous and needs a girl who will let him have partners on the side. (They seem to be missing the high he got off manipulating me and hiding it!)

These new gifts of discernment apply to “friends” too. Cheating isn’t a monogamy / polyamory thing, it’s a character thing. All it takes to cheat is an agreed upon set of boundaries that one person unilaterally violates. In any case, “what kind of girl he needs” is NOT your problem. You aren’t that girl. (Thank God). He can go polyamorously pollinate pricker bushes.

Now, I’m off to bribe the UBT with some Lebkuchen…

Hey Halfthecake,

Sorry for this evening, I wasn’t expecting to see you. You know I can’t talk when you ask me relationship questions. I blocked completely.

You know I can’t talk when you ask me relationship questions, I bullshit better by text.

You know I can’t talk when you ask me relationship questions, my lips are stuck together with peanut butter.

You know I can’t talk when you ask me relationship questions, I am under the enchantment of an evil goblin.

We have problems in our relationship and I know why they are there, it’s because of my behaviour and wrong thing that I had made.

We’re still in a relationship! Just not a publicly-acknowledge-you kind of relationship.

I made a wrong thing. What sort of thing? I can’t say. A raw pancake, a lumpen ashtray, a misshapen sock puppet?

To be honest, I wasn’t feeling good about it, that’s why you know. I told you about OW, in that time I was confused about our relationship and I did wrong. I admit it. I learned about it and that is why today we are still together.

That we’re still together is proof that I’m a better person now.

So long as I never get confused. Monitor me over other women and quadratic equations.

It won’t happen again. I pushed you to have sex and experiment things that you didn’t like. It’s in the graveyard.

Buried 6 feet deep! In a titanium coffin! Inscribed with “Here lies a pushy sex creep. RIP 2021.”

It won’t happen again, because that guy is dead. I killed him. And also, I want to be your boyfriend. Because you can feel safe with my multiple personalities. One of whom is a murderer, and the other of whom won’t speak with you at volleyball. But this guy? I think he’s here until Tuesday… he cares!

You have to learn to say no when you don’t want in the moment.

You said no. I didn’t like it. I sulked. But let’s DARVO that shit as your communication problem.

Yes I liked some girls’ pictures on instagram and quotes on Instagram while being in a couple with you. I admit that. That was stupid and it won’t happen again.

I killed that guy. He’s in heaven downloading porn now. Liking angel ass. Two-timing cherubim.

I know I have hurt your emotions at many times and know you get everything at the same time. I am really sorry Halfthecake from the bottom of my heart. I feel bad for hurting you and seeing you emotionally affected.

Me talk empathy. I feel bad whirrrrr! Emotions at many times!

#frankenfucker

I know that you would like to send your boyfriend to the therapist because he is the worst in the world so he deserves it, but thinking well I am not going to go.

Therapy is punishment. I know you think I deserve the punishment of soft sofas and tissues and accountability, but I am not going. Sitting in the Worst in the World waiting room, flipping through old Family Circle magazines. I will not submit to this tyranny.

I feel that I have been better since all that.

I declare myself better. My self-satisfaction should assure you.

I think I am in the good way to be better working by myself.

I’m just here alone working on myself! Not seeing other women, no sir. The guy who just a sentence ago said he doesn’t need any improvement, is in fact, right this minute working on himself. Out of sight. No direct supervision needed. Just take my word for it.

Take the time to think by yourself and process everything.

I respect your boundaries. As you can tell from this text, and the way I hatefully sulk after sex.

I am not going to run away just give me your space to think and I will do the same by my side. Good night I think that was all.

It’s not running away, it’s space for my deep thoughts.

You know I can’t talk when you ask me relationship questions, so just imagine the answers you want. Saves us both the trouble.

Good night I think that was all.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Sorry, did I miss something? You “ran into him where you play volleyball”? Why was this loser at your volleyball game? He just happened to be there (right!), and then give you the silent treatment. You seem to be almost willfully clueless. This guy is a liar, cheater, manipulator. Even if it was your job to fix him, he is not fixable. Drop this lemon immediately, and go No Contact. Do not fall for his hoovering sob stories. Not your problem. And they will be lies.

    • And maybe drop those “friends”?

      You need friends who build you up as a strong individual and encourage you to look for someone who has your shared values and values you for who you are. You do not need “friends” who dissect his bullshit and find excuses for it.

      I sense that you are on the younger side of the spectrum. Consider this year with this jerk as a blessing and learning experience. Take the time to process how this impacted you and how to not repeat this error in judgement. Many chumps keep making the same mistakes over and over again and don’t find their boundaries until much later in life. Don’t be that person!

    • I’m with ThreeTimes and CL! You need to start picking up on the cues toxic people are doing and then cut ties exactly when they overstep their boundaries or when they are manipulating you (example: randomly showing up where YOU play volleyball and then making you feel bad for questioning his bad behavior or sulking when sex wasn’t as X-rated as he wanted). If he is doing this to you then odds are your friends are too as CL was implying and it’s time for you to educate yourself on boundaries….what they look like, how to set them, and how to enforce them so people stop taking advantage of you. “Boundaries” by Henry Cloud and “In Sheep’s Clothing” by George Simon are both good books. No contact is obviously the first step when dealing with a toxic individual (especially someone who you are intimate with) but you need to recognize the flags in real time so you don’t even get into a relationship with someone like this in the first place.

      • Was his text written in a different language and then run through google translater? You are clearly fluent in English. I’m just curious.

        • Dr. D,

          I also wondered, “Is English this guy’s first language?”

          And I did a literal triple take at his dad having 22 children. Holy smokes. I don’t know what’s worse – if that’s true, or if he made it up.

          Half the Cake,

          I know when cheaters speak or text in word salad (broken English?), the confusion can stun you. Kind of like being slimed. No one deserves to wade through this sludge. Big hugs to you.

          Stay No Contact. If in a few months, you still have the urge to decipher nonsense, help a middle-school teacher grade essays 😊😇. You’ve got this!

        • That was the first thing that stood out. He reads like he speaks English as a second language or is a hillbilly/Jersey Shore dude, so I’m not sure whether to make fun of his writing. As a holder of two passports myself with tons of polyglot friends from all over, I’d say that if he’s originally from a non-English speaking country, his writing style is only as funny as the length of his residency in an English speaking country.

          But if this guy is from an English speaking country and has the leisure to do nature workouts, his neckbeardisms coupled with mopey emo mindfuckisms are straight up hilarious. I have North American friends from all over the lot, too. Whether they’re heavily accented from Nacogdoches or Biloxi or bilingual from Yuma, Quebec or New Orleans, they can write and have no patience for people who don’t bother to master basic sentence construction.

    • Willfully clueless? That sounds sort of harsh. She’s living her life and he showed up. It happens. She’s been gaslighted but figured it all out before more time passed. She’s NC.

      I think Halfthecake is managing this confusing situation very well.

      • Thank you. Ya when you drain out everything else it seems that way. When you have a year of good reliable context it takes a few things before it’s apparent that that is not his actual character.

      • Mmmmmm it just goes against the 99.9 percent of other data and it’s a shock. It’s very hard to imagine that someone you spent so much time with and trusted actually doesn’t care for you at all. It actually seems like a glitch at first. We all read kindness and affection and time spent together as signs someone loves us. If after a year that suddenly changes it’s not willfully clueless it’s shocking – evil is hard to wrap my head around. It’s like if your neighbour was someone you were friends with. Then you start to see some wierd stuff. Like a knife and blood. And a suitcase or duffle bags in and out. You hear a scream one day. The guy tells you how there was a cockroach in the house and that he’s also started cooking as a hobby and is into buying large cuts of meat. Immediately you’re going to think okay – that’s way more likely to be true than my serial killer being a homicidal maniac. It’s honestly like that. It’s SEEMS at first unlikely that someone who’s so callous could be the guy who I once described as treating me “like I was made out of glass”.

        • He sounds like a porn zombie. I don’t mean “porn addict,” I mean “porn abuser.” I think the practice reduces empathy. Not all men are attracted to violent or pedophilic porn. I think they have to have something wrong with them to begin with to tolerate it.

          I have a giant bone to pick with CSAT therapists and the concept of “porn addiction” because, for the most part, I find that sex addiction therapists, like the notorious “marital reconciliation” therapists, tend to whitewash plain old abuse as “not abuse” as they frame plain old abuse through the lens of “poor sad sausage addict” drivel. This is partly because they can lose their licenses for attempting to reconcile a victim with an abuser and doing so is their bread and butter. Plus, it’s usually the abuser paying the bill, so they just change the definitions of what constitutes abuse as an economic strategy. But the addiction model isn’t a good fit. Bottles and pills don’t stalk you, commit rape, break your jaw, call all your friends and your employer to destroy your life and finances and socially isolate you. The term “addict” minimizes the willful hostility of sexual exploiters and abusers. So I parse it by referring to these addled and dangerous people as “porn zombies.”

          The only element of addiction that seems to fit porn abuse is “escalation.” As some sink deeper into the world of abusive pornography, they start escalating to more and more extreme content as videos of normal sex increasingly fail to get them off. In that sense, they become like boy soldiers in the Congo who are trained into callousness and violence through scarring experience, drugs and a process of inculcation. Except violent streaming porn seems far more efficient than a diet of abuse, amphetamines, brainwashing and deprivation. This is probably why 20th century dictatorships fed porn to the plebes as a way of increasing aggression to create perfect killers and create a consuming distraction that would destroy any chance of popular revolt.

          Anyway, if you sensed he “changed,” there might have been something to it. He might have been in the process of sinking deeper into online porn consumption as the “threat” of an intimate and enduring relationship (with you) loomed closer. Regarding tragic FOO issues, there might be an element of attachment disorder to this twisted mentality, sure. They long for closeness but yet get hives from it at the same time because Uncle Pete did terrible things to them in the woodshed or whatever. People with “intimacy allergies” tend to sink deeper into compulsive escape behavior the closer the “threat” of intimacy looms. But if that sounds like a bid for amnesty for poor “love allergic” sausages, bear in mind that serial killers and domestic batterers harbor the same disorder. That’s pretty sobering. Were Ted Bundy’s and Scott Peterson’s victims performing therapy by dying at the hands of these monsters? You weren’t put on this earth for that purpose. Run away and don’t stop running. You’re totally on the right track.

          • Thank you interesting point. I am of the opinion that porn does no good and a lot of harm. It very much degrades and humiliates women and there’s really no reason why watching others have sex is necessary without sending the message that some ‘other people’ can be used for sexual pleasure (like objects). Women in porn are treated like dumpsters and objects of contempt. Men grow up on this garbage. Every message out there tells guys it’s cool to bed a lot of women you don’t care about and their needs and emotions are not your problem. Porn is just a big money maker, it’s not ethical and it’s highly toxic.

            I think he had the opportunity to sleep with another woman and felt entitled to do so. No matter what the reason the big problem is hurting me didn’t factor into the equation. I feel he craved sleeping with this other person and sought out reasons to be dissatisfied with me to justify sleeping with her.

            I agree with your point on addiction the thing about any type of sex addiction or porn addiction is it involves people. It’s a valuing people and willing their best interest problem. You wouldn’t want someone you care about to be used like a toy, or go into porn (let’s be real) so it means they reduce these people to objects and try at is what makes them evil. Treating it like an addiction almost validates that humans are just like substances. The real issue is valuing others as ourselves and acknowledging that they matter equal to us. You can’t use someone and acknowledge their humanity. That’s the heart of the matter as I see it. Very arrogant, distorted and ignorant view for them to have. They may not suffer but they will live a shallow existence that cannot be admired or respected.

          • Oh and also – however it came about will happen again. If someone craves something and doesn’t resist they will not resist next time either. If they act this way when they are confused that will happen again. All people do all wrong things because they feel like it. The people who don’t cheat don’t cheat not because they are happy all the time or because they never have an urge they are responsible and considerate and hold themselves to a moral standard. The scary thing is anyone who does something immoral has to tell themselves a story such as :

            -it was out of my control (I can’t help it …I’m a man / sex addict / sociopath)
            – x person I’m hurting deserved it to some degree / it’s justifiable because Of soemthing I don’t like about them I’ll focus on.

            When someone wants to do something to hurt you often times they do the mental gymnastics to make you a villian / devalue you because they have to in order to give themselves permission.

            I highly suspect that people devalue to justify the cheating more than they cheat because they devalued you. One necessitates the other. They can’t tell themselves they are a good person until they’ve figure out how to view the other person as not worthy.

            • I agree 100% that they devalue to justify the cheating rather than cheat because they devalued you. You are pretty wise for such a young one, Halfthecake……

              You got out quickly, you knew your value. Good for you! We are rooting for you!

        • That is the classic devaluation phase after the love bombing aka treating you like you were made out of glass.

          So sorry HalftheCake. This guy is your run of the mill stock standard narc cheater. This is how they roll. Keep going girl, your new life awaits, one where you get treated properly forever.

        • “It’s very hard to imagine that someone you spent so much time with and trusted actually doesn’t care for you at all.”

          It’s absolutely hard. Bloody hard. So hard that we disassociate… we just can’t believe it… we won’t believe it.

          Until we have to believe it.

          Finally facing the truth that the man I married was never the man I married was just as hard, if not harder, than learning about his affairs. Facing that kind of truth is beyond painful.

          But we’re still here. As Elton John would say “I’m still standing.”

          • I’m so sorry that happened to you. That man is a POS who has no morals and deserves nothing good in life. I hate that there’s evil people in the world. Im glad you’re not one of them. They may not acutely suffer but they live a shallow life. Following impulses and living like an animal is a waste of our humanity and far short of our potential as human beings. Plus this person isn’t capable of love (which is selfless) and feeling love is a beautiful thing.

        • I can relate to what you learn going against other data you have. Mine was on great behavior for nearly 15 years! Can you imagine? Then I was like a frog in the boiling water story (if you have heard that one, if not look it up). For over a decade he slowly started to behave in a way that should have made me start thinking, well at least by year 20 I should have started to wonder about him. Hindsight is 20/20.

    • Sorry. I can’t address his absurd shitty behavior. I’m too stuck on his babyish self pitying wording.

      I teach ESL. IF this guy is a native speaker of English, then his childish writing alone should have gotten him the boot.

      Painful to read.

  • Uhhhhhh. Confused here. He seems to maybe want back together, but you can’t just snap your fingers and be a better person. It’s great that he regurgitated what you said to him as the problems-he listened at least once. He did say “I” at least 26 times in that message though, do you think you can be on his radar?

    • Yes such a sweetie-pie this guy. Especially when he called pushing my boundaries an ‘experiment’ and suggested some of the near-porn Instagram pics he liked of girls he’s ‘friends with’ were for the quotes. My blood boiled.

  • Oh the poor dear UBT. This was some bitter cheater speak. The things the UBT has to translate must leave a bitter taste in the transponders. More delicious Lebkucken STAT.

    This cheater seems disconnected from any reality, referring to himself as “Your Boyfriend”. Is he your boyfriend? I don’t think so. He is just another ordinary cheater intent on the “pussy buffet”. His letter seems just off. I suspect Halfthecake is blind to his true self. Take off those rose colored glasses and look at this guy. He sucks.

    I married and discovered later fuckface’s father had a complete second family. I found out his brothers were cheaters. Then I learned his friends were all cheaters. It shouldn’t have been a devastating event to find out fuckface is a cheater. Taking off my rose colored goggles I could have safely assumed fuckface is a cheater.

    Halfthecake, you can do better. You can get a partner who won’t refer to themselves in the third person. You can get a guy who doesn’t have 20 infidelity baby siblings. You deserve more than this ass who ignores you in public places.

    Block him. Delete the contact. Remove yourself from his haram. Look elsewhere. This one is broken. Get you a healthier man, one less scarred by FOO trauma.

    • Complete second family….

      Complete second Thanksgiving dinner…

      Like bodysnatchers, Lt Col Fuckface’s family was casting a spell on you.

      I am so glad the spell has been broken and you finally got free! Evictas Benedictas!

      Enjoy your beautifully decorated and peaceful Christmas haven. I wish we lived closer so I could come see it in person!

      • Oh Velvet, I wish we lived closer too. I could use more friends in the physical world!

        They truly are duplicitous. Divorce has set me free. I won’t chump for anyone! I don’t wife either.

        Evictas Benedictas!!!! I feel like embroidering that as my family Motto.

    • TTYAC, that was me! Once married I found out that ex’s father had affair, and both brothers later had affairs and ended up being divorced. Lots of alcohol abuse thrown in. Eldest brother’s relationship with ex-wife started when he had an affair with his friend’s live-in long-term girlfriend. And that friend was such a chump. I used to wonder why he had anything to do with ex’s family after the way he had been treated. But there he was at events, parties, accepting anything thrown at him. All bar one of the ex’s male friends were cheaters, as were all the men and women he admired. The exgfOW, who he ran back to after 26 years with me, was having an affair when she dumped him and, I now suspect, that her relationship with the ex never ended in fact. It just changed its nature for a while when she moved to Canada. She married the then affair partner and who knows whether the ex broke up that marriage over the Atlantic. These people need drama because there’s nothing to them and their pathetic little lives. Note that they rarely do an act of kindness for anyone else. It’s always all about them. Their shallows know no depths! They are empty, hollow, tinny! Drama fills their gaps.

      Halfthecake, it does not feel like it now, but count your lucky stars. You are less chumpy, more self-aware and awake than I ever was until it was all too late and I had wasted 10 years of my precious life trying to keep a selfish, entitled genetic cheater happy. In reality I probably wasted 26 years of my precious life. I wish I had walked out of the ex’s life 12 years ago, when the withdrawal of sex, the sulking, the petulance, the put downs, the sneers, the smirks ramped up. I did not find out about the affair (the one I know about for sure – I had suspicions about others but they were denied as was the last one) until after the ex had gone. I did know about the cruelty (a man who ‘felt bad’ at leaving me 6 weeks after my father’s death). In a way the last affair was totally irrelevant. It just gave the FW something to monkey branch to. Therapy for yourself is what makes the difference to the rest of your life and better choices in future. This ‘boyfriend’ is a lost cause and the bottom of the ‘lost causes’ bucket is the only proper place for him.

      Feeling angry and ranty today and I’m over 2 years out. Rebuilding at 60 is very, very tiring!

      • I am so sorry you went through that. That man is a terrible person. A good person wouldn’t do any of that. I hope he gets hit by a bus, and someone amazing walks into your life.

        • Thank you. You are kind, and will get through what’s happening now. And you know, someone amazing has already walked in to my life, someone I’m getting to know at long last – ME! Rants and all!

          • MW– On the one hand, fuck the asshole for putting you through that. But on the other, boy would I (and countless others) LOVE to meet someone like you in real life, who has crystalized their experiences into such a rich and delicious rebellion. The latter is all due to your native brilliance and resistance and no thanks to the creep who subjected you to those “experiences.” You are valuable and precious. Never forget that.

            • HOAC, 🙏. Reading your comment at 06:15 in London has made my day already. And likewise to you. Us chumps are the good stuff.

      • Mighty Warrior, you can rebuild at 60. I was Chumped and abandoned at 60. I’m now 64 and rarely think of cheater. I’m retired and have friends and activities and volunteering. I have a full and satisfying life on my own.

        • Thanks Georgie. I’m pleased to read about your rebuild. Some days are more difficult than others and yesterday was one of them.

    • Thank you. Yes blocked and gone. This message and behaviour gave me a sick feeling something was wrong. The first year I didn’t notice anything and felt extremely safe. I remember thinking he was extremely patient and respectful about sex. So a year in a total switch it was more of a shock, because it was when I trusted him that this started. I totally trust this is who he is (the person I thought he was, a good guy, would never do this!) but it’s grieving who I thought he was and also feeling completely traumatized that I was being objectified for this whole run.

      • “Thank you. Yes blocked and gone. This message and behaviour gave me a sick feeling something was wrong.”

        Good for you! So many of us here swallowed those feelings and powered on only to find ourselves… well, here. I was thrilled that your first impulse after that text was to run and invoke No Contact.

      • Narcs and sociopaths can hide their true selves for periods of time. It appears your FW can go up to a year. Thank goodness you didn’t move in or worse marry him.

      • Half –
        Your instincts are good. You didn’t let him move in, and you went no contact. You found CL/CN.

        Try not to stalk his social media (it’s hard, but it’s triggering when you do).

        And yes, the trauma is real, and yes, you are grieving the relationship you thought you had.

        I know I missed red flags in my relationship, I didn’t even know they were red flags until after D-day.

        Healing comes with distance and time.

  • The Frankenstein meme and hashtag “Frankenfucker” had me in hysterics at zero dark thirty this morning – thank you CL.

    Halfthecake – look, you know in your head that he’s a fuckhead asshat. You know he’s manipulating you. You understand you need to go no contact and get him out of your life. Listen to everything CL said — it’s spot on.

    But one more thing… you seem to think you owe him something because he had a shitty dad and FOO. We all make this rookie mistake. It’s empathy. It’s trying to help fix things. You can’t. Let it go and don’t ask your friends their opinions on it. They don’t know.

    But — you could really benefit from therapy. I recommend that you work this out with a therapist before you jump into anything else with anyone else. That’s my 2 cents… especially since you recognize that you’re traumatized from it and are asking for help.

    And if you need a little laugh… holy shit that guy can’t write. That’s what made me giggle hard at the Frankenstein meme. It was like Frankenstein himself wrote that robotic drivel.

    • Agreed on your last point. I get that since this missive was texted rather than emailed that it might be a bit disjointed, but the phrasing of several statements was so odd that I wonder if English is his first language. It could also be an example of narcissistic word salad. If you aren’t sure what N word salad is, take a look at anything that Trump has said for a textbook example. You are better off without this trash.

      • Ok Schrodinger’s Chump… maybe you’re right… some of the robotic nature is because it’s texted. But he’s not writing in true text speak.

        Or perhaps English is his second language… but then maybe texting communication of this magnitude is wildly inappropriate and too easily misunderstood with even greater language ability. 😂

        I think you’re right and that it’s narcissistic word salad. I mean, the guy says:

        “I know that you would like to send your boyfriend to the therapist because he is the worst in the world so he deserves it, but thinking well I am not going to go. I feel that I have been better since all that. I think I am in the good way to be better working by myself.”

        Who talks about themselves like that in the 3rd person unless they aren’t taking responsibility for their actions?: “you would like to send your boyfriend to the therapist”… “he is the worst in the world so he deserves it” … but he doubles down and turns it back on her saying (in brief) BUT THAT’S NOT ME AND I’M GOOD. So basically it’s an FU to her.

        Run, dear Halfthecake. Everyone here has your back and we all want you free of this FW.

        • Who talks about themselves in the third person ? Narcissistic cheaters. I caught Wendy Williams interviewing Beyoncé’s father a while back. He did this, the notorious cheater. And lo and behold, Beyoncé is still married to her ugly a.f. cheater. Recreating her parents’ marriage ?

          • The FW talked in the third person.

            Also, the text sounds like speech to text, which is more rambling than actual writing would be.

            (My current lovely bf will do speech-to-text and he keeps all the funny mis-translated words for laughs).

      • I think that both OP and cheater do not speak English as their first language and this letter is OPs translation from the original which accounts for a little license in the turn of phrase. Add cheaters provable word salad in too et voila

  • Good for you for going no contact. Keep it up permanently. Drop the “friends” who suggested “polyamory.” They do not share your values and are not in your corner.

    You sound pretty young, so it’s not unexpected that you would have a hard time figuring out what kind of man isn’t good for you. For future reference, here are a list of red flags from your relationship. EACH ONE of them are serious enough to end a relationship over.

    1. Liking sexy photos of other women he knows on Instagram: this means he isn’t committed to you and is an instant deal breaker.

    2. Intensely pressuring you into sex acts you’ve made clear you don’t want to do: this means he is completely self-centered and puts his own gratification ahead of your well-being and the well-being of your relationship. (Practically the definition of a potential cheater.)

    3. He disappeared for a month: This means he does not care about you and cannot be relied on.

    4. Him complaining that “the sparkle” was gone from your relationship. Nothing sparkles forever. If he needs neverending sparkle, you don’t have a long-term future together.

    5. He asked for multiple partners: This means that he puts his own gratification ahead of his commitment and care to you, and that he isn’t going to be satisfied by one woman.

    6. Despite serious problems in the relationship, he refused couples counseling: This means he doesn’t want to change his behavior or be held accountable for it. The problems will only continue.

    Please remember your worth in future relationships. You demonstrated this time that you didn’t feel you deserved a caring, committed man, so you put up with this crap. We’ve all been there (chumps), but it’s time to change your ways. Only socialize with people who value you and share your basic values (which means ditching the “friends” who suggested polyamory as a solution to your being treated like crap). End any budding relationship that has these kinds of red flags. Any one of them should be a deal-breaker for you, if you truly value yourself and want to be treated well by the man you’re with.

    • On number 6, I would argue that unless you are married or have children with a person, if things get so bad that you feel you need couple’s counseling, it’s time to break up. I mean, relationships take work, but it shouldn’t feel like a chore or take a grueling amount of work.

      • Most couples only go to counseling when things are really bad (cheating, other mistreatment, one partner mentally checked out of the relationship, etc.). But if a smart couple goes early on to work on communication issues, needs help aligning goals, etc., that isn’t a contraindication to staying together. Minor problems are going to crop up throughout marriage, and the willingness to work through them cooperatively is a good thing.

      • I was not married to my former husband when I requested counseling. Relationships are a skill, learned behavior. We repeat what we grew up with without intervention. We both grew up in seriously screwed up families. I thought he was a great guy and what I actually told him was that I did not want to bother with a relationship unless I was with someone who wanted to learn how to do it really well. He agreed to go with me. We had been dating exclusively for several months (I believed at the time but of course now who knows?) and that was my motivation for counseling. Very much akin to parenting classes when people become parents.

        Counseling can be for learning and preventive maintenance, not just crime scene cleanup when Mt. Problems have built up to overwhelming heights.

        Earnie Larsen says that relationships fail because one or both people do not have, or are unwilling to learn, the skills for success. Cheaters prove with their actions that they do not have the skills and are unwilling to learn them.

        I knew I didn’t learn the skills growing up in my family, and neither did he. My request to go to counseling, with whom I thought was basically a good guy, was as a remedy to that healthy relationship skill education which was missing from both of our childhoods.

  • “Pay attention to who he IS, and not who you want him to be”

    Ah yes, if I had been able to do that, I wouldn’t have been married for as long as I was. My FW also pushed my sexual boundaries and I went along with some of it because I loved him and wanted to make him happy. It should have been a red flag for me that he couldn’t see that I was uncomfortable or rather that he did see and didn’t care. Thankfully I did have the spine to draw a line in the sand somewhere and stopped him from doing something I really, really, really didn’t want to do. FW, not being a cartoon villain after all, stopped and said he he would never force me to do anything I didn’t want to do. But he was visibly displeased.

    That sex boundaries thing hit hard. I remember. I remember feeling like a bit of a spouse-hostage because he pushed my boundaries or because he wanted to have sex a lot more often (a lot) than I did. I remember not feeling like I could say no at any time because (a) he was my husband and (b) I wanted him to be happy.

    So, I get it. When you’re neck deep in a relationship where both parties care deeply about the FW’s needs and wants (but not so much the chump’s) it’s very difficult to say “no.” Crazy power imbalances will do that. Sometimes I wonder what it would feel like to be in a relationship where both partners are on even footing; I never had that.

    Happily, those “I can’t say no to him for fear of making him unhappy” wife-hostage days are far behind me now. That’s Wifetress’s problem now; I’m free. And it just goes to show you that cake eaters are never happy, really. I said “yes” to him 95% of time and kept myself available for him because I “didn’t want to make him unhappy” and he still went looking for extramarital thrills elsewhere.

    Have boundaries and don’t have sex if you don’t want to = FW goes looking for cake
    Be available for sex, even the kind of sex you don’t want, 24-7 = FW goes looking for cake

    There’s no winning.

    Halfthecake, I’m glad you’re out of it now. Don’t get sucked back in. The best thing I read in your letter was that your immediate response after reading his rambling, BS text was to go No Contact. Good for you.

    Don’t let him slink back like I let my FW slink back; there’s only misery in that scenario. And get tested for STDs pronto if you haven’t already.

    • Fourleaf, thank you for ‘when you’re in a relationship where both parties care deeply about the FWs needs and wants, but not the chump’s’. That line will stay in my head.

    • Fourleaf, the ex used sex as a weapon in a different way. He refused sex for 10 years. To this day I do not know why I accepted that, as my previous relationships had been sexually sound. This was an issue from well before the marriage. A very healthy active sex life became occasional, sparse and he had to be drunk first. He was uncommitted, disengaged, detached from the start. I tried to talk to him about it many times. He refused to discuss. Sometimes he smirked. I made excuses for him, rationalised, all the time feeling more and more unattractive in myself, especially after menopause. This aspect caused me huge shame. I told no one until after I started therapy once he had gone. From the age of 33 to 59 I was with a man who used the rationing out of sex as a weapon against me. And no, we don’t have children, another sadness. And I felt sorry for him. I can remember his toxic eldest brother making a comment to me towards the end which suggested that ex had been lining up his ducks by telling people that the marriage was sexless because I didn’t want sex. Interestingly, his middle brother employed the same tactic with his, now ex, wife, also childless. There is something profoundly wrong with those three men but no one on the outside would believe that. They are charm itself. It’s so easy to believe that the woman is the cause of sexual difficulties in a marriage because it’s a stereotype. And it’s very difficult to get over the shame that causes. I will never forgive the ex for that, and I often find it hard to forgive myself for caring for my needs so little.

      • Dead bedroom for 10 years after his affair. Yes, he framed me. Refused to have sex with me for whatever he saw as a need I didn’t fulfill (took too long getting out the door, not holding hands in public, etc.). Used sex like a 2 x 4 to punish me. Now he gets to tell everyone he left because he was in a sexless marriage. Of course, everyone blames the sexless wife because that is the stereotype. Who’s gonna believe a man refused sex? And, yes, his is charm itself. 100 percent, made my needs non-existent.

        • Sociopaths are notorious for withholding sex. Also notorious for blaming the OW or OWife, if applicable, for breaking up their “happy” marriage to their former chump. No one wins with these defects.

          • Chumptimes2 I feel and share your pain. It’s very difficult to talk about.

            And KB22 I do smile at the certain knowledge that exgfOW will at some point get blamed for ruining his life. It’s what he and she deserve.

          • “ Sociopaths are notorious for withholding sex.”

            I can’t tell you how many times STBX has threatened to withhold sex -for numerous reasons. Big shit, little shit, didn’t matter what it was. Not ONCE did I ever do that to him. However! ANY time he did threaten that I’d look him dead in the eye and say, “Go right ahead and see if I cry about it.”

            Not once did he ever follow through because he’s a sex maniac.

            I am another one that pushed my boundaries aside to try and keep him happy. Boundaries that I knew, once crossed, would fuck me up mentally and emotionally.
            I did it anyway.

            And the worst of his sexual demands I finally gave into after d-day, like the chump I am, all while he was still talking to his Troll.

            I cannot tell you how fucked up I am from giving in to his demands when I knew I shouldn’t. I knew better and did it anyway and it only added to my already fragile psyche.

            Never, ever, EVER do anything sexual that you are not 100% on board with. Someone that truly loves, values, and respects you would never want you to put yourself through something that you KNOW is beyond your personal boundaries.

            My STBX hid his true “sexual needs” until after the ink was dry on the marriage license and then it all became about ultimatums and threats if I didn’t act accordingly in the bedroom. If he’d been HONEST from the beginning I never would have married him.

            • I know it’s easy for me to say…don’t beat yourself up for giving into his demands. When we are in the thick of it we’re just trying to work everything out and thinking clearly escapes us till we are well out of the toxic relationship.
              Many years ago (mid 80’s) I was in a toxic relationship with a guy (FW 1) that loved to play mind games. Didn’t know whether I was coming or going but during one of his “I’ll ignore her so she becomes desperate” exercises I met someone else. Someone that literally took my breath away. Movie star looks, athletic and funny! So I dumped FW 1 for Mr. Gorgeous. Mr. Gorgeous and I moved in together shortly after and FW 1 pursued me like crazy, for years. However, I still stayed awake at night beating myself up for take FW 1’s crap. Here I was happy and in love but still mad at myself for taking shit. However, talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Mr. Gorgeous. who had an aversion to straight work, was a degenerate gambler that preferred to get into crazy money making schemes that usually screwed someone over, never him of course because he never used his own money. He didn’t have any money. Long story short he was a full blown sociopath, but at the time I thought he just needed lots of love and guidance, you know, to see the light. We got engaged after 2 years but I was smart enough to stall on getting married. So 4 years later he got some girl from the Turks and Caicos pregnant, she flew up to the states, blah blah blah we broke up. He was cheating from the get go…I suspected but he would deny and make me feel like a deranged girlfriend. I can laugh about it now but at the time I couldn’t eat , sleep or think straight. Then one day I gave myself a talking to and said you have 2 weeks to get over this so cry, be depressed, whatever but it ends in 2 weeks. I swear it ended in 2 weeks. So you can beat yourself up but only with a deadline. Then you move on.

        • It was the other way around for me; FW was hyper-sexual and I felt like I was never enough. He also told me that after my pregnancies that I was… well.. “not the same” anymore. It was very demoralizing and I made sure that I was available to meet his sexual needs whenever he needed because I was terrified that I wasn’t enough.

          And of course, I wasn’t enough. Now I know that the game was rigged to begin with. It didn’t matter if I was available 24-7 or if I did or didn’t bow to all his requests (which included something I refused to do for the first time in our relationship). The truth is, he would never be happy with what I could provide for him; he was looking elsewhere from the moment we started dating.

          I learned that he had begun an affair with GF#1 while our marriage was still newish (before we had kids) but that he had broken it off with her because (as he told me, framing himself as a noble hero [which I totally bought into at the time because we were in reconciliation]), “GF#1, we can’t continue this. I’m a married man and Fourleaf and I are building a life together. We can’t see each other anymore.”

          Because I was a dolt in reconciliation, I bought it hook, line, and sinker. What a hero he was! He was having an (emotional, he said) affair but he broke it off because he wanted to stay true to me! I was so lucky! (Good lord, I can’t believe I bought that.)

          Later, *very shortly* after I gave birth to our second child (I was still breastfeeding), he had a one-night stand with a mutual friend and then started seeing GF#1 again. I’m assuming the STD I caught came from one of them but it doesn’t matter anymore.

          I only mention that FW had started an affair with GF#1 before we had kids, while we were still relative newlyweds, because, looking back now, I was strangely kind of thrilled to find out that he was stepping out on me before I became a mother. In other words, he made me feel sexually undesirable (despite his eagerness to hit me up for sex a lot) because “I wasn’t the same down there anymore.” Well, he was stepping out on me before I even had kids! So, it didn’t matter what was going on with my body anyway… he was always going to cheat. The “you had kids so you suck now” excuse was just that: a bagged salad excuse. Honestly, learning that was vindicating.

          • And another strange aspect of this, is that going through all we do, to bear children for our partner, is such a massive gift to them! Several guy friends of mine have no children and wish they did. Another friend has one son, and wanted more. Why do these FW’s not see the beauty of family?
            Also, I feel for you Fourleaf. My X was hyper sexual too, and for a long time it was my only ‘love’ that he showed me. He didn’t treat me well in other ways, and I was totally confused by it all. I have a ton of FOO issues, and I forgive myself for falling for that mess. I did speak up, but it never got any better.
            I know I was a very caring and resourceful wife, so I’m proud of my life, in spite of him.

          • The FW and I were sexually compatible – equally curious with similar needs and drive.

            Yet the OW was a woman who did none of the “extras”, wasn’t even his instagram-fitness-model preferred type.

            The thrill he got with her was the thrill of deceiving me. Being used like that, when we were still in the sexual honeymoon of our relationship, was probably the most hurtful aspect.

            I really hope that his latest conquest is a vanilla lover. I have a feeling she is, as he was still trying to get back with me when he was moving in with her.

          • I think they use the most precious and beautiful things to punish us. Mine upon Dday said he deserved someone better sexually, one who hadn’t had children. He said he was grossed out at my childrens birth but never knew he felt that way bc he never lasted long when having sex so I thought he was plenty happy. Then I learned after Dday he was a sex addict having major problems loooonng before I knew him. Way before children. He just had to kick me when I was down on Dday with my sweet babies hoping his lie would stick. Our children were as mine and his chief blessing. I couldn’t believe it. They just want to hurt with what they think will work.

        • Who knew that withholding sex was such a common cheater tactic? I had a dead bedroom for years, and I put up with it. I actually bought his story that the prescriptions he took gave him ED. I shouldn’t have, because when he first moved out of the bedroom, he made it clear that he was punishing me for asking for sex “when you knew I didn’t want it.” Huh? Who does that? It’s not as though I pestered him for sex; I asked and he turned me down so I read a book instead. Later, he told me I’d get more sex if I lost weight. So I tried to lose weight. When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, he thought I’d be losing a ton of weight. Suddenly he’s attentive again . . . took me a long time to realize he was attentive when other people could see it. Not so much when we were alone. Afterward, he withheld sex because “your stomach is bigger than your tits,” and “You know I like long, straight blonde hair,” when mine grew back brown and curly. Both of his complaints by-products of cancer treatment. And still I tried to make him happy even though by then it was obvious that he cared nothing about making me happy.

          • Oh, I’m so sorry Ex-Mrs. Sparkly Pants. What he said to you is terrible. He’s a total shit. I hope you know that.

  • HtC,

    When you add this all up, I don’t think he could have communicated to you who he is any more clearly. He is not worthy of you, and – while I’m here – I’d put a lot of your “friends” in the same boat.

    Time to go all “Marie Kondo” on their collective a*ses and get rid of the lot of them, as they are clearly lacking in the “sparking your joy” department.

    LFTT

  • What is it about cheaters and sexual sulking?

    Mine used to push me away all the time, and was really mean about it too: “God, you’re so intense all the time,” “Fuck you, go jerk off.” She insisted that she had a low sex drive.

    In our entire ten years together I pushed her away ONE TIME, at four months postpartum when the baby was literally at that moment ON MY TIT, and not only did she sulk afterwards, she never accepted my advances again.

    And later she tried to justify her fucking a stranger in my bed with “we weren’t having sex anymore.”

    Because of you…?

    • Me too. She pushed me away for years, limiting sex to only when and how she wanted (minimal foreplay, all by me, while she just laid there): “I don’t need the bing and the bang; all I want is the boom.” During the discard, she constantly harped on how we never had sex and berated me for having no idea what it was she wanted or needed.

      Then, all of a sudden, she wanted an open marriage, in which she had 9 separate ‘encounters’ with 5 different guys in the first 30 days. During the final days of forced co-habitation, she said: ” . . . having sex with you was disgusting; I only did it as a wifely duty.”

      Hearing this type of abuse from someone you invested in emotionally, can really mess with your mind, if you let it. DON’T LET IT. Consider the source — see these cretins for the vile, manipulative fuckwits they are.

      • My wife also refused anything other than the “boom”. On the rare occasions we did have sex it was weirdly unsatisfying – it kind of felt empty. I say “weird” because there’s this idea that men are supposed to just want the “boom” without any of the other stuff, but I can tell you that removing the kissing, caressing, cuddling, etc (before and after the act itself) makes sex kind of soulless and unsatisfying.

        During my period of maximum confusion (after ILYBINILWY but before I found out about the affair), I remember thinking “if our marriage is in such trouble, why do you refuse physical contact? Everyone knows that skin contact creates a powerful bond between people. Why would you take that out of the toolbox?” Of course, the answer was that she wasn’t interested in fixing the marriage, and considered any affection – particularly physical affection – to be a betrayal of her AP, but I didn’t figure that out until much later on.

      • “I don’t need the bing and the bang; all I want is the boom.” During the discard, she constantly harped on how we never had sex and berated me for having no idea what it was she wanted or needed.”

        Oh for God’s sake. I got the same. “You don’t know how to please a man” was one of his go-to lines. Not sure how that jibes with: “We’ll never have better sex than we had with each other” and “Are you wearing that tight sweater to seduce other men?” What the what???? Which is it, buddy? Either I have a clue, or I don’t.

        None of it makes sense. None of it matters. I know that cognitively.

        But you’re right about it messing with your mind. My emotional self is licking its wounds. He damaged my self-confidence and my self-worth. He frequently criticized my body. I was a size 2 and ran all the time. I accepted that he needed porn because I wasn’t enough. Devastating.

        And, of course, he turned the knife on D-Day by telling me that he doesn’t need porn when he has sex with her.

        .

    • This comment hit home. He claimed to have a low libido; I was NEVER allowed to make advances because they were ALWAYS rejected but I NEVER refused him ever even when I wasn’t really up for it. And when I found out about his repeated cheating, apparently it was because I was ‘less into sex than I used to be.’ WTH!!!??? This is quite puzzlingly the opposite of true. Talking about pretzel justification.

      • The sexual withholding is for real with many FWs. It made it more traumatizing for me… here I was begging FW for sex — he never wanted any. Low libido. He was crappy in bed anyway. And then he freaking CHEATS on me? WTF?

        Sometimes I smile thinking that he wasn’t good in his late 20s or 30s. AP got him just as he’s turning 50 😂 I hope she’s stuck with that FW and terrible sex for the rest of their lives — fingers crossed

          • Definitely power and control … and a cruel mind fuck I guess. And let’s be honest — they’re getting as much sex as they want, we just don’t know it and aren’t part of it. So we’re left bewildered and trying to win their affection. They get lots of cake and unwittingly we are pick me dancing. It makes me sick to think of the years I wasted with almost no sex because of that turd of a human.

            • 🙁 I hate to see this is a common experience. I mean I can be all sorts of things in bed but a buffet of strange pussy is not one of them as been often mentioned on this blog.

            • I didn’t think she was cheating until about a year ago. We were together so often, and always texting— we even worked together for a while— it’s hard to imagine when she would have had the time. My first indication that something was wrong was that she suddenly stopped speaking to me and looked at her phone all the time.

              But… I guess anything is possible?

        • Make no mistake if their (FW & OW) relationship continues he’ll withhold sex from her as well, even if his libido is healthy.

            • Mine claimed I didn’t initiate sex. But I did.

              Gaslighting.

              He also claimed that I said I wanted to have a threesome with his friends. Totally false and horrifying. I also think it might reveal some homosexual tendencies on his part.

              His false claims might be registered as facts by his flying monkeys. I need to accept that, even though it pisses me off.

  • The grammar alone has me screaming in agony. Not just secret side pieces here; I’ll bet he works for an Internet catfishing organization whose home office is in a foreign country.

    If I need a dictionary, a third grade English textbook, a decoder ring, a PI, and a polygraph machine along for the ride with someone, it’s time to jump out of the moving vehicle and take my chances. The odds of survival are way better than staying in the clown car with DARVO the Clown.

    As was said here so super-eloquently by a fellow chump:

    WHAT STARTS SHITTY DOESN’T GET BETTER.

    I should have left when he told me he was drinking NyQuil to go to sleep when getting home after swing shift.

    I should have left when we went on a trip to the mountains to cut Christmas trees and he was mad at me because I would not give my tree to his mother, who wanted the tree I cut for myself instead of the one he cut for his parents.

    I should have left when we moved into the house we were going to “fix up, live in for 3-5 years and then sell it” and he refused to fix anything up. It took me years to get matching doorknobs from Mr. Nice Guy who worked for a nationally known doorknob company.

    I should have left the first time he ever failed to stick up for me.

    I should have left when the female “study partner” from his junior college class showed up. My instincts about that situation were dead on.

    All these things happened within the first three years, before we were married. Before I was legally snared and emotionally tied to him.

    If I had left, I wouldn’t have my daughter, whom I would not trade for the world.

    I wish I could have her and alien-mind-wipe him and get the time I spent with him back.

    I laugh (ruefully) now to think how I was so hung up on the three years I spent with him that I decided to stay when confused about the “study partner”. I was thirty years old and wanted to be married and have a family and was afraid I would miss out on that if I left him and started over. Besides, he was a Nice Guy and in recovery and WE WENT TO THERAPY on a regular basis

    (Therapy for him = lies and lip service. For 27 years. He is STILL lies and lip service in therapy with Dr. Kickass Co-Parent, now at YEAR THIRTY, apart for four years.).

    THE FIRST LIE MEANS YOU ARE WITH THE WRONG GUY/GAL.

    BROKEN AGREEMENTS are another huge red flag.

    But the GRAMMAR! Oh, the horror!

    Find a new volleyball team.

    • PS

      FOO issues? I got issues!

      I was in therapy for five years, for my issues, by myself, before I started dating Benedict OJ Madoff (aka X)

      I got into recovery by myself, for myself.

      I did not cheat or lie or steal or have a secret second life.

      Everyone has FOO issues. Some worse than others. There is not an issue-free individual walking the planet. I will never be a perfect person or achieve sainthood, so my
      daughter has issues. All I can do is be accountable and lessen the severity of the issues, and stay teachable and accountable and trustworthy.

      One issue I do NOT want her to have is staying with someone who lies to her and cheats on her.

      Her entire life, I have been teaching her to stay away from people who were behaving in a way we found out her dad was behaving and keeping hidden. BOOM. The trick cigar has blown up in his face and boy is he surprised.

      Therapy after cheating, IMHO, is like the arsonist calling the fire department after the the house has burned to the ground.

      We had a therapist our entire relationship. 27 years. He still cheated and lied and stole and and and and and. I wanted to avoid the shit show marriages of both sets of our parents. It turns out he was probably sitting on the couch counting the carpet fibers.

      I didn’t have a marriage. I had A MIRAGE.

      • “If I need a dictionary, a third grade English textbook, a decoder ring, a PI, and a polygraph machine along for the ride with someone, it’s time to jump out of the moving vehicle and take my chances. The odds of survival are way better than staying in the clown car with DARVO the Clown.”

        Oh, VH. Your posts are the best! Thanks.

    • “he was drinking NyQuil to go to sleep”

      Ugh, one of the most vile fluids on the planet! A mere whif of that stuff makes me gag. I’ve had many sleep issues over the years, but it never crossed my mind to reach for that. It’s just a mixture of drugs and alcohol, with bad taste/smell thrown on top. It was also my stbx’s elixir of choice…?

      I didn’t mean to hijack your comments/thread, but this in comment in particular I physically reacted to.

      • NyQuil is a no-no for alcoholics in recovery (me). It’s alcohol. So is mouthwash.

        My mother drank Listerine. My sister drank baking extracts.

        Practicing alcoholics are creative.

    • “BROKEN AGREEMENTS are another huge red flag.”

      Ding, ding, ding!

      Our birthdays are close together (4 days apart). For our first birthdays, when we were financially strapped, we agreed that our new bikes would serve as our birthday presents. We agreed to not buy presents for each other.

      His bd rolled around first. I gave him a thoughtful card and made him a special meal.

      He sulked. I was confused.

      Four days later, he tossed an unwrapped jewelry box my way. Pearl earrings. No card. He was pissed.

      Me: “But we had an agreement!”

      X: Stormed out of the room.

      That set the stage. I was only 24. From then on, I made sure to buy him many gifts–the more expensive the better. He was like a child. So effed up. I really didn’t know what to do. I threw money at the problem.

      I’m so different. I really would rather a thoughtfully worded card and lovingly prepared meal.

      We were not a good match. It’s obvious to me now, but damned if I didn’t try to make it work *for 35 years*!!!

    • I am so sorry you went through that and this POs treated a moral solid person that way. It’s completely natural not to leave when you have suspicions – what if you are wrong and giving up a relationship for nothing? What if it’s your attachment issues making you insecure? Of course our guts are always right but there’s so many messages out there that seem obsessed with making people feeling insecure or jealous. My guess is there would have been no support or validation for who you were feeling and these events would have been minimized. I hate that women have a time limit. Of course if you were thinking of marrying this guy today I’d encourage you to trust yourself and Get out but who knows…maybe you wouldn’t have had kids otherwise. You don’t know how life would’ve gone otherwise. You have a beautiful daughter now and you don’t have to worry about that, you can just look for (if you want) a really great partner and friend. So I ever hear you on wanting to wipe the memory though that stuff is tramatizing as hell!!! I wish you all the best. Thanks for the comment.

  • “You have to learn to say no when you don’t want in the moment.”

    There was so much wrong with what he said but this one jumped out at me because the blame and discounting you are so strong. You had already told him no and he pushed and blamed you later.

    He has zero respect for your boundaries and is a huge blamer. Run like Hell.

    I am also suspicious as to why he saw you in public and ignored you. Me thinks he was there seeing someone else and made lame, blameful excuses for ignoring you.

    You would be better off living with 15 rabid donkeys than this freak.

  • I suspect whomever he was tapping behind your back was at that volleyball place and you actually caught him and don’t realize it. He may also have been confronted by said person who then dumped him. So he’s working overtime to keep you because he needs new place to live soon. But beyond all his cardboard villainy, he is just dumb based on that poorly written goofery. He isn’t worth trying to figure out. He isn’t worth trying to negotiate a decent sex life with. He’s definitely not worth paying his rent. any punk who disappears for a month then wants back with a new dollop of crazy is your change the lock moment. This is a good opportunity to be free of this shitload of doom. Grab it and run.

    • right on the money Trudy, this was my first guess. He pretended not to know her because a side-piece was on the scene. then he went into overdrive covering his tracks and using meaningless word salads to distract her from the truth

  • So Halfthecake says she can really use a laugh? She should just read his letter again. And again. (It gave me the biggest laugh I’ve had in a long time.)

  • There is absolutely nothing there to work with. I don’t care if he’s the best looking, best love-bombing guy in the entire world, just RUN AWAY!

  • Something I learned the hard way, getting pregnant and giving birth under the false pretense of reconciliation makes getting out a whole lot harder. Glad you made it out.

  • Well my sympathies that you were with this creep but kudos on you for recognizing him as disordered and not good for you. There’s someone out there who will respect you and you deserve to be respected.

  • I got lost in the dissociation of “sending your boyfriend to therapy” as opposed to “send me.” Those slip ups freak me out and lead me think about disorders. The ex is disordered and I heard him speak to me about me in the same manner by saying he told someone that his wife left and took everything he owned. It was a nice shocking wake up call to stay away from him. He had no self awareness plus it was a complete lie. I was an object sitting across from him. I think that was the last time we had direct contact.

    • Ya it is mocking me like I’m a simple little girl with simple thoughts. In the first year he was this calm gentle person and then this psychopathic behaviour came out and I thought maybe he was bipolar. It just seemed like it must be a mental episode not ‘who he is’. I am realizing though that someone who is truly callous takes up whatever personality gets them what they want and that’s sunk in. It’s scary!

      • Nope, not bipolar. That presents quickly if the person is not taking their meds. He’s your garden variety lying manipulator. Be glad you didn’t set up house with him and have kids. Plus you have this blog where everybody understands what happened and how to get over it with time.

      • I remember feeling the same way. It was either “has my husband gone crazy” or “is there a tumour growing on his brain” or “I think aliens have kidnapped the man I love and replaced him with a cruel doppelganger.” The man I had always identified as kind, caring, wonderful, and someone who made me feel like the luckiest girl in the world had suddenly changed!

        Only… it wasn’t so suddenly. And he hadn’t really changed. He had just stopped pretending to care about me because I really wasn’t of much use to him anymore and he had another girlfriend’s place he could move into all lined up. He only turned on the kind, caring, wonderful, and “I can make you feel like the luckiest girl in the world” charm (which worked!) if he needed me for something. He married me because, as he told me later in an explosive bout of truth-telling he thought he’d never do any better and I seemed like a good catch. He came crawling back to me for a reconciliation because, as he told me later in another explosive bout of truth-telling, “GF#2 and he had just broken up and he realized he had a perfectly good, loving (and very forgiving) wife at home who would no-questions take him back and he was very, very lonely.” So I took him back and was useful to him again (he was so loving and sweet and attentive) until he found someone else about six-eight months later (GF#3/Wifetress) and then he turned back into that strange “is he bipolar? does he have a tumour? is he really an alien?” creature again.

        So, I think back now and ask myself “Wait… was he a really nice person who changed magically into a jerk?” I try really, really hard to be honest with myself only to realize… that he was always a jerk. He was just a jerk who is disarmingly charming to the people he needs around. As his girlfriend and later his wife, I *saw* him devalue and discard people after he had finished with them (friends, family)… but he was nice *to me* and he was “in love” *with me*…. so I spackled. I justified. I threw my support behind him no matter what he did. Whenever he said something arrogant I just nodded and thought “Well, he’s right to say that; he is very talented” or whenever he trash-talked a former friend or family member of his that he had no use for anymore I would nod and think “Well, he’s right to discard that person; they were toxic anyway.” And he would reel me in by flattering me, calling me a “cool wife,” telling me that it was “us against the world” (or some other variation on that theme) and that I was his soulmate and no one else in the world “got him” like I “got him.”

        No matter what he did, I was behind him and I didn’t question it. I definitely was his toadie. But you know what happens in stories to toadies, right? They get discarded too.

        After I crawled out of the pit of deepest, darkest depression, I looked back and realized that while there were certainly some good times, most of the time the man I had loved was incredibly insincere. If I didn’t capitulate then he’d pout or get upset with me. In other words, I realized that he hadn’t changed overnight or developed a serious case of the “he’s gone nuts”…. he was…. always this way. But I didn’t see it because (a) he didn’t want me to see it yet and he poured on the charm (really, he’s quite affable; I hate to say it but if you met him, you’d like him), (b) I didn’t want to see it, and (c) those rose-coloured glasses were riveted to my head.

        10-15 odd years ago I wailed, “What happened? He changed into a cruel stranger!”
        Today I know and admit that he never really did change. He was always this way.

        • Yes they are this way. Lundy Bancroft book “why does he do that” is really good and accurate. Part of what makes them abusive in intimate relationships comes down to what they think about what a woman partner is supposed to be to them. Unfortunately for abusive people they all believe they are entitled and the woman is there for them. She should make him happy. This is his deep seated believe and if you believe someone is there to serve you, we’ll they are your slave and they have no rights. At least not where it conflicts with anything they want. I don’t think who they are is completely fake I think when the honeymoon is over is when the hey I’m not being made happy like I should be, or hmmm I want something and you have no right to obstruct me from taking it. It’s their specific attitude toward intimate / sexual partners. Often times these people believe that they should feel like they do when they are in the honeymoon stage so they lash out and devalue when it’s over. They really believe in fantasy and ‘sparkle’ as my guy said. They arent wise, they are too simple for reality, their place in the world and morals. I mean these guys spend their lives in shallow relationships, on shallow things (often substance abuse) rather than cultivating a deeper more meaningful existence. I think people don’t realize that empathetic good people have a whole sphere of experience that FW lack. They are less sophisticated unfortunately part of that is exploiting people and it does harm/ hurt. If they were wise they would be better people. Morality is rational and fulfilling. Shallowness is chasing satisfaction that never comes.

  • He wasn’t upset that you didn’t give him a sex act he wanted; he was upset that you he couldn’t get you to do something he was demanding from you.

    If you had let him sleep with other women and I f you had given in to those sex acts, he would’ve found other boundaries of yours to bulldoze over repeatedly until there was nothing left of yourself. And then he would’ve completely abandoned you.

    • This is my story. I was the Cool Wife who gave in to All Things. Whatever he wanted, 31 years of giving in and trying to be what he said he needed.

      I was the doormat with a barrel of spackle handy to compensate and accommodate for his increasingly abusive treatment of me and our daughters over the decades. As I look back it is so clear it all started before we were married and only got worse. I am ashamed at what I put up with.

      In the end he suddenly abandoned me and told me I deserved it. He destroyed our family and blamed me for everything. He tried to ruin my relationship with our adult daughters on his way out.

      Good for you Half, you got out before he stole your life. Don’t ever put up with this from anyone, whether friend or intimate partner, again.

      • I am so sorry to hear this. It’s natural to what to please, trust and love your partner and he is the one who should be ashamed. You didn’t deserve any of that. I actually have shifted my thinking on ‘getting involved’ when I see cheating. After this guy I was with a group of friends and this one man I didn’t know well was picking up girls shamelessly at the bar later even though he had a gf who lived with him on another town. I recorded it and sent her the video of him all over other girls explaining what happened then blocking the account (just because I need to protect myself). Anyway the whole group was mad at me and I just didn’t care. If I see something it’s my business because I have to either do nothing or do something and doing nothing doesn’t feel right.

      • “I was the Cool Wife who gave in to All Things. Whatever he wanted, 31 years of giving in and trying to be what he said he needed.

        I was the doormat with a barrel of spackle handy to compensate and accommodate for his increasingly abusive treatment of me and our daughters over the decades. As I look back it is so clear it all started before we were married and only got worse. I am ashamed at what I put up with.”

        Omigosh, IC, I had just finished typing a response above that says pretty much the same thing. I was the cool wife too (one of his nicknames for me was “cool wife”) and I did things for him that I wasn’t particularly interested in myself. He wants to go to the strippers? Fine, I’ll go to the strippers with him. “Oh my god!” he would gush, “You are such a cool wife!!!! I’m so lucky!”

        I’m a house mouse. Do I want to go to the strippers? Not particularly. I have nothing against them but I’d rather grab a blanket and do a movie marathon at home than go to the bar or the strippers. :S But it made him so very happy, so I did it.

        I realized later that he didn’t do the same for me. I’m a member of a local orchestra (something he disliked that I did) and several times a year we’d put on a concert. He would get dragged to those kicking and screaming (well, not kicking and screaming.. more like pouting) and towards the end he stopped going to them entirely. When I’d ask for him to support me and come to the concert he’d tell me that was unfair of me to ask because concerts were so boring and “you know I don’t enjoy that kind of stuff anyway.” Then, during active discard, he didn’t even want me to go to rehearsals (my one thing that I did for myself once a week out of the house) because he hated being at home alone “babysitting the kids.”

        I did stuff for him that he liked but he couldn’t be bothered to do the same or support me very much. He even talked me out of a short certificate program (would have taken one year of part-time study) because he told me that I didn’t have time for it and couldn’t handle taking on more to do. He never offered to step up and help me with anything that didn’t involve him. Like you, IC, he left and told me that I kindof deserved the abandonment because he had spent a lifetime caring about everyone but himself and now it was finally time to chase his own happiness. You can’t make this stuff up; it’s insane.

        Being a “cool wife” doesn’t carry you very far. I could have gone to a million stripper bars with him. I could have had sex with strippers. I could have become the stripper wife he always thought would be so cool…. wouldn’t have stopped him from being a FW.

        • Exactly this. And they take those rotten and selfish qualities with them when they leave and will crap on whomever they attach themselves to next. We were set free when they abandoned us but it hurts to look back.

          Someone said here once, “I guarantee you will spend more time and energy recovering from the abuse you volunteered for than the abuse that was outside of your control.” I have immense shame for not standing up for myself, for allowing him to treat me like he did. I let him play leader of the family, head of the house, master and commander, and he repaid me with abandonment and blaming rage.

          When you act wipe as much butt as I did it is no surprise he tossed me away like toilet paper. Never again.

        • That guy is a monster. He saw those strippers as objects and he probably sees all women that way except maybe his mother and sisters but who knows. Either way he feels women are their to stimulate men. If men are into transactional sex and used to blocking out someone’s humanity and looking at them like a popsicle (I don’t know why but this is my way of saying a tasty treat to be consumed) then he’s basically become a psychopath. You can discard objects. Objects are there to be used. This guy had no connection between sex and emotions or responsibility / caretaking. Reading this – he is a POS and you are awesome. He was right about you being a cool wife but it’s because of music and who you are not accompanying him to go be a pig at a strip joint. Sorry you ever ran into that scumbag and wish you better people on the future ❤️

  • By definition, polyamory includes the consent of ALL of the people involved. It’s not for everyone — not my style — but I don’t judge it negatively when practiced with healthy, open honesty among consenting adults.

    Cheating is deception. Lies, omissions, misdirection, misrepresentation… that’s cheating. (Don’t let people split the “everybody lies sometimes, if I hate your shirt I don’t tell you because that would be mean” hair — it isn’t nearly the same thing and the liar well knows it. That’s just more misdirection.)

    A person who “really just wants polyamory” would state it openly. You might be surprised, but it wouldn’t be unclear.

    A person who deceives a trusting partner is a disordered abuser.

    People who suggest that the two options have a Venn diagram overlap are inevitably deceivers trying to split a hair to get away with cheating. Honest is honest, dishonest isn’t. There aren’t shades of gray there.

    Cheating is abuse. Deception about significant topics is abuse. No amount of sugar can coat abuse enough to make it not abuse. It simply is what it is.

    • Preach, sister!

      Cheating and lying. denies the victim’s right to informed consent and steals their reality. Polyamory requires INFORMED CONSENT of all the parties involved.

      A committed relationship is a boundary. That boundary is violated by the cheater and the person who knowingly cheats with them. Vows have nothing to do with it. In practicing good boundaries, I do not get romantically/sexually involved with someone who is in a committed partner and collude with deceiving (abusing) that partner. Affairs are a form of violence against the person being cheated on and an affair accomplice is colluding with violence. (Taught to me by my local domestic violence prevention organization, and I agree).

    • Yeah most polyamorists are super up front about it. Like obnoxiously up front. Like they will tell you even if you don’t need to know, they’re so up front about it.

      • So true. Some of them seem to like to shock people or are testing you to see how you react, and if you aren’t interested in discussing their lifestyle, they pronounce you a prude and get nasty. Arrogance is just a cover for insecurity. They aren’t as sure of the rightness of their choices as they pretend.

        Militant polyamorists are just as annoying as militant monogamists, the latter being religious nuts and quite often hypocritical cheaters.

  • Here’s the deal. You can’t fix him. You will never be able to fix him. There are people out there with lots of letters beside their names who will take money to help him fix himself but you can’t do it. I’ll bet he’s charming, good-looking, and funny. That must make him a really neat guy but he isn’t.

  • A friend of mine has a 40 year old son. He recently ASKED his live in girlfriend if they could change to an open relationship. She said yes (her choice for good or for bad, her own choice).

    This is the way that functional adults do this. He told her and gave her the choice to say yes or no.

  • Also, kind of an out of the blue comment, but I’d like to remove the FOO issues excuse from the game entirely from now on. It’s no longer a get out of jail free card. I have Big Mother F***ing FOO issues AND somewhat I manage to operate (most of the time) with the upmost integrity… If there isn’t already a CL post specifically dedicated to this, I’m requesting one.

    • Yup. I come from an intense, messed up, abusive family of addicts – and I’m a good person who
      literally wouldn’t hurt a fly (I catch them in a jar and let them outside)

      BUT sadly I’ve been a huge FOO apologist for others. I think the reason we do it is because the truth hurts so much more.

      It’s nicer to believe he cheated on you because his dad was a cheater – than he cheated on you because he doesn’t give a shit about you.

      Especially if out of the other side of his mouth he’s insisting he loves you.

      This is why what anyone says doesn’t matter all. True character is in their actions.

  • I read the initial post and CL’s wet noodle flagellation. I didn’t bother reading the UBTs translation because it was unnecessary. I would have dropped this idiot as soon as I realized he had the mental cognition and maturity of a 12 year old. Seriously his ability to string together sentences like a junior high student, or less, would have been a turn off from the start.

    • It’s easy to say “I would have left.” – but there isn’t a single one of us here who didn’t get mired in a similar spiderweb, sometimes for decades.

      She didn’t marry him or have kids with him, she left him and came to CL! She deserves only applause 👏👏👏

      • Thank you:) ya it sounds so simple outside and I’m so grateful to Tracy and for the comments because people who’ve never net the guy are actually the best judges. My friends who met the guy would comment how good natured he was and he seemed that way to me to. So after 1 year when the guy suddenly is acting like a psycho the first thought is like…is he bipolar? Also it was super intimidating. His sulking felt like rage…Tracy was on the money with hateful, so I felt intimidated to be tough and was sort of cowaring to avoid the intensity. I really think he is a sociopath and that’s why it would seem like for him to be like this it must’ve been obvious but actually everyone who knows him and met him would say how ‘good natured’ he is. He had a very tranquil introverted persona and talks about spirituality and peace all the time. He used to comment how sex was not the focus for him and he would rather talk to girls than sleep with them. This stuff shared here is the opposite of the persona he cultivates publicly.

        • Good job getting out! Glad you saw him for the crazy he is. You don’t sound like you feel safe and loved! So there is nothing there for you. Go find another great guy who cherishes and loves you. Be well! You dogged a bullet.

        • They are testing, testing, all the time, to see how far they can go. I only learned that here, and it’s such valuable info!
          Now I’m very alert for boundaries, and how people treat them, and discuss them, it’s so telling.

        • He’s crazy and evil. You’re not. What he does is never going to make sense to you. It’s like trying to understand why criminals do what they do. You’re not a criminal. The book “When Your Lover Is A Liar” by Dr. Susan Forward really helped me, after I was completely twilight zoned after a year with a “nice guy” evil sociopathic narcissist. Until then I had no idea men like this existed, except maybe in a magazine. When I read the chapter on Narcissists — the men that you need to leave immediately, I couldn’t believe it. It was like they wrote the script for my ex. I was shocked to find out that there were other people like him!

  • 1. Anyone who writes a text that long should be out of your life for good.
    2. Anyone who writes a text that poorly should be out of your life for good. It really was like Frankenstein! “Me sorry. Me good now. Me no go shrink.” Sheesh.

    The DARVO line should 100% validate that this guy is a jackhole. YOU have to learn to say no quicker and more vehemently?! What. An. Ass.

    Make sure he stays in your past.

    PS — Love that your gut started screaming when it came time for him to move in. Listen to your very smart gut; it is a super-power.

  • When I think back over my life experience with long term boyfriends and husbands, I feel bad for the me of yesterday who was not prepared to deal with all the BS I encountered. I initially enjoyed sex, and was willing to try new things unless they hurt, put me in a position where I could not leave, immediately, or gave me the creeps. I did not know enough, even about my own body and sexuality to make decisions, “in the moment” it occurred to my partner to “try something new.” I was ignorant about porn. I didn’t think to ask “when did that idea come to you?”

    As I aged and learned more about dysfunctional personalities, I realized I was living out the life my culture had prepared me for. I was looking for a man to be strong, and a leader. I expected him to have experience, and I didn’t stop to question where he had gained that experience. I was willingly giving myself to him to keep him happy. My own happiness was not a factor in the equation.

    This thunderbolt of insight stopped me in my tracks, and caused a profound evaluation of all my beliefs and practices. I slowly became a new person. The real me emerged, and the carefully cultivated me was shed like a coat which no longer fit. I became a more independent and confident person as the result of my own analysis, therapy, and my determination to live what was left of my life in a state of happiness. I can now spot and walk away from people who are selfish, have no empathy, are immature, or who want to “control” me. I developed boundaries. I always had values, now I enforce them without apology. My friends, male and female, accept me as I am, or they are not my friends. I extend them the same courtesy. I do not have a special partner, and I may never have one again, but I am an entire entity by myself. Being in a relationship does not define you. You are enough.

    Chumps need to learn how to spot and discard Users. They are selfish, immature, and will suck the life out of you. They are time vampires. They waste your precious time. You should be appreciated for the wonderful traits you have, and you are worth the effort someone should exert to be with you. If you truly believe that, you will never accept disrespectful behavior again. You have other places to be, much better things to do. Leave the User behind, and don’t second guess your decision. Life can be MUCH better!

    • Yes thanks for your comment. I think it’s easy for people to forget that you go into relationships trusting and if someone if our to manipulate and deceive it’s confusing. The guy was patient and actually talked to me about how he’d prefer having a conversation with a girl to sex and his sex drive was not the same as it used to be. He would scold cheaters as well. I just trusted him. When he sulked about sex it was a year in and I felt…intimidated. It was like silent rage. Then I guess when he made it seem like he was taking a long term relationship seriously and was scared he would cheat. My father has been faithful to my mom for 35 years but had a cheating dad…he told me how he dumped a gf because his dad made him scared that faithful marriage wouldn’t be possible. So that made me think okay, maybe this is legit. With a few weeks to absorb what happened I’ve pulled myself out of the situation and blocked. I don’t want to be abused and I could feel the abuse.

      • Some of them are really pretty talkers when they are in the pursuit stage or to keep you in their orbit but as soon as they are focused elsewhere (read on someone(s) else(s)) then they start to ignore you, withhold, criticize or otherwise belittle. If they declare their love loudest when you are going to leave then they are jackasses, I’ve learned the hard way.

        And once again, good on you for following through with your gut feeling that you were being hurt; you were.

      • They are good at duping. My fw, after we had been married a couple years, threw away all his beer and said he didn’t want to be a drunk like his dad was. And to be honest there was no indication that he ever too another drink. What he didn’t say was my dad was also a lying cheater. I guess because he had no intention of giving up other women just because he was married.

        He also would criticize other men who cheated. But to be fair he was pulling off a massive con, not just on me but the whole community. His most ardent desire was to become mayor or our city. So I worked along side him in the community and in politics to make that happen.

        Then someone dropped a dim, and it all hit the fan. He had recently gotten a promotion to Captain on the PD. Evidently someone knew what he was doing and the time came to pull the plug.

        He was getting nastier and nastier to me. I believe he was trying to get me to leave him, then he could play the sad sack who got dumped by his wife; bring whore out of the woodwork after a couple months and keep all his ill gotten gains.

        Yeah, best laid plans…

  • Yes, this guy is a mess. He’s all over the place and completely unreliable. I’m older and have a young adult daughter. If she was dating someone like this and asked me about my thoughts, I would read her and say something along the lines of RUN!

    I fell into believing that I had to tie myself in knots to keep my partner happy while he was undermining family life and particularly our marriage. It was a no-win situation. After he moved away, he repeatedly claimed that he had changed, but my gut just wasn’t seeing it. He said the divorce would be easy, and it was far from easy. His attorney repeatedly called him on the hypocrisy, and my ex still doesn’t see it. He wants our young adults to visit him like their choice of no contact just “happened” and as if he just somehow forgot about their existence after he left.

    Looking back, I think you have to assume the old “past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior” when you are evaluating a partner. There’s a difference between overlooking small slights and running the other way when you see the red flags.

    As my divorce attorney liked to say, only a fool would be friends with the person who burned down their house.

  • Half the cake, what terrifies me is that it sounds like you were considering bringing a child into this world with this utter POS. You have no idea how excruciatingly painful it would be to watch this POS manipulate, devalue and discard your child.

    No contact! Get busy figuring out what is in you that would be ok with one second of this. Don’t waste another moment untangling his skein. Futile. But, your motives and decisions are useful to understand, to examine whether your beliefs serve you (e.g. people will change if I explain “things” to them, or feel sorry for their FOO….(nope)).

    • Hey! It was more that he asked me what I was looking for and I said I want a family one day so I am looking to really get to know people to find my long term partner. He then used to talk about babies everyday (not me) then he used this excuse. It was always him asking or bringing these things up. I think it just made the best story….he actually said he was very stressed during that month because he loved me but wasn’t sure about kids and ‘didn’t want to ruin my dream’. I didn’t know he cheated at the time so I was like maybe he was taking it really serious because he’s kindof introverted. Obviously not but these people really have no problem mind effing you.

        • Also his sisters and mom loved me so needed something to say when they asked why I wasn’t around other than “I feel like banging someone else for a bit”. They also need a story to tell other people to garner sympathy. Then everyone figured oh well that’s understandable he wasn’t sure about the relationship, and as a man he can’t be expected to turn down sex if it conveniently comes along while he’s ‘thinking’ and his thinking ends when the sex is done. That’s a coincidence! Lol

  • Fourleaf,

    “Happily, those “I can’t say no to him for fear of making him unhappy” wife-hostage days are far behind me now. That’s Wifetress’s problem now; I’m free.”

    Ugh. This really hit home.

    Throughout my 35-year marriage (or, as VH puts it, mirage) I spent way too much time trying to appease a grown man who was prone to tantrums. A young married person (23), I felt that spouses should want to please each other so tried to do that, but it was all so one-sided. You can’t have a loving, evenly-balanced relationship when one partner is a mean, passive-aggressive, entitled covert narc who throws tantrums to get his way. By the way, the worst tantrums were the silent ones.

    I ended up coping by embracing sucky solutions like spackling, not asserting myself, ignoring boundaries, and catering to his moods. I prayed that his beloved hockey team would win, so he’d be in a good mood. There were times I pointed out his moodiness and suggested therapy. Of course, he erupted in anger, arguing that he wasn’t moody.

    To the OP, please read our stories and view them as cautionary tales. Know your value and find someone who respects you. Don’t waste decades with a creep who puts his needs above yours. Find someone who enjoys a level playing field. Find someone kind.

    • Spinach, your comment that the worst tantrums were the silent ones hit home. Every Saturday morning he would sulk. It was never clear why, save that he was hungover from Friday night. I danced around trying to work out what was wrong. Towards the end, one Saturday morning I said ‘good morning’ and he ignored me. Remained silent. My dad had been dead 3 weeks or so at this point. Somewhere I found the strength to challenge him in spite of my fragile emotional state. He smirked and said that he didn’t hear me. It was a brazen lie straight to my face. Sometimes I read back what I’ve typed and say to myself ‘did you really live through that?’ It takes on an air of unreality. And then I ask myself ‘why did you love him for over 20 years?’ And why did you consider the thought of death to be preferable to living the rest of your life without him. It’s horrifying to recognise how the 26 years together caused so much emotional, physical, mental and financial damage to me without me noticing that I was being damaged. Terrifying to be in there for so long.

      • Yeah. I feel the same way. Terrifying indeed.

        All I can say is that I think a lot of us did our best. It’s easy to Monday-morning quarterback our actions/reactions/motivations.

    • “ I ended up coping by embracing sucky solutions like spackling, not asserting myself, ignoring boundaries, and catering to his moods. I prayed that his beloved hockey team would win, so he’d be in a good mood. There were times I pointed out his moodiness and suggested therapy. Of course, he erupted in anger, arguing that he wasn’t moody.”

      This. A million times over.
      I’ve grown to hate even going anywhere with him in public. Or, hell!! Even being in a car with him! He’s insane on the road. Super amped up, tailgating people all the time, yelling, road rage from hell. It’s stressful just being in a car with him- when he starts yelling and screaming it becomes unbearable. I used to go with him on the day trips to pick up his kids and I stopped because he puts my anxiety through the roof (I actually asked my doc for anxiety meds a few years back JUST for those trips….they worked but gave me wretched side effects so I only used them a couple of times).
      Going out to eat with him is another ball of wax you don’t want to mess with. God forbid there is ANY kind of wait. Even 3 minutes. He throws attitude at the hostess(es) and will stand outside or in the waiting area griping and cursing loudly. I’ve found myself hoping beyond all hope, soooo many times, that when we get to whatever restaurant we’re going to that there’s no wait, hardly any people there, no shortage on foods that he’ll order, etc. etc. etc -just so we can have ONE peaceful meal where he doesn’t complain and get angry and pissy. That rarely happens, though. He always finds something to get angry about.
      It’s fucking exhausting.

      Sadly – that’s always been easier to deal with than watching him ogle other women in public and make comments about their asses or ‘thick thighs’.

      His mother lived with us for 7 months and was here for the d-day #1 fall out. She knew some of what went on and straight up told me I should leave him. The two of them got into it one day over money and she packed her shit and left. I was actually mad at her……get this……FOR LEAVING ME ALONE WITH HIM. She was my only ally that knew what was going on- At the time. I was angry with her for ditching me when it wasn’t her problem to fix.
      We won’t get into how he is the way he is because of her and his dad. But that’s when I started realizing just how fucked everything was. I needed HIS mommy to help me survive in this house? Ugh.

      Not much longer. I hope.
      If I don’t find an apartment soon I’m going to explode.

        • I’m so ready.
          2 bedrooms -in my price range- are few and far between so I’m looking for full time jobs paying more, as well as part time jobs in the meantime. Just a couple hundred more a month would open up more housing options so I’ve been looking s much as possible. It’s me and 3 teens so I need at least 2 bedrooms for the time being. I’m planning on taking over the living room space until the oldest of the three leaves for college next August.

          • ChumpMGWAC, thats a really tough situation. Don’t give up hope, your place is out there. I was at the end of my tether with no luck finding a place near my son’s school during exit planning when the ONE decent rental I could came up and I dived in and secured it. And when they steeply hiked the rent beyond my means just after my divorce settlement came through, ONE affordable little house came on the market that I was able to buy .

            So hang in there. Miracles do happen. I believe there’s special angels looking after abused women who are escaping.

  • Half The Cake, Congrats: No Contact. 👌👍👏
    The Instagram exchanges alone = Cheating,
    right in front of your face. Then again behind
    your back. Not acknowledging you in public
    is another form of betrayal. No doubt, this boy is
    Selfish & Cruel & Manipulative & UN-committed.
    Invest in yourself: get Chump Lady’s book,
    check out Dr George Simon, like SouthernChump suggested, maybe some therapy for you or whatever it takes to make sure you’re healed up & have a fixed picker. 👋 Bye, bad boy.

    • So, that’s an interesting question and I guess there are probably a lot of good answer. One might be that they’re emotional centre is broken so no matter how much you pour in, it’ll leak out and they’ll need more and more and more. Another might be that they are both novelty seekers and unempathetic a-holes. I mean a novelty seeker that was a thoughtful human being in a consensual monogamous relationship could take up dancing or sky diving or restaurant tourism or buy new underwear.. or have an uncomfortable conversation with their partner instead of being deceitful. They don’t need to keep sticking it into different holes (or receiving something different in different holes).

        • Honestly, I think it is a combination in most cases. New sex is always more exciting. The intrigue, sneaking around etc add to the mix. Married sex can not compete with clandestine sex, it just can’t. Does not mean married sex is not good, or can be exciting. Just not the same.

          I can only assume this, as I have never had clandestine sex. But I have read enough about cheating to understand. I also know my fw was flying high for quite some time. He was having a great time, having a life with me, including frequent sex, and all the while sneaking around. He wasn’t just lying to me, he was fooling the community into believing he was this great family man. Then the fall. And oh was it a fall.

          I can only liken it to something like a new job, or new car etc. All great for a while, then the natural routine sets in, and either you are mature and work within that realm; or you change jobs as often as some change their underwear.

          • For the record I am fairly certain my ex was a cheater from early marriage. Of course I didn’t know then, as I wasn’t looking for it. But, my guess is when he started cheating he had no intention of giving up the life he had built; then he got his balls caught in the company auger; and he crashed and burned.

          • (I’m picturing your ex/first husband falling off a cliff, Susie Lee. And I’m laughing. Hard 🤣)

  • This guy is the definition of a narcissistic cheater.
    * Grandiose sense of self-importance. …
    * Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur. …
    * Needs constant praise and admiration. …
    * Sense of entitlement. …
    * Exploits others without guilt or shame. …
    * Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others
    This isn’t even the full list of traits, but you will be amazed how many characteristics you will be able to recognize and check off the list once you get away and can take a few gulps of some much needed fresh air. It’s going to be a real education!
    One of the mantras of chumps here is “Trust that they suck”, and your life will be so greatly improved if you embrace this concept as early as you possibly can.
    I know it’s not an easy ask and we all had hoped we could be the exception to that rule. These ppl can’t be fixed and, honestly, don’t want to be.
    He’s playing with your head, trying to keep you trapped in a web of cognitive dissonance, where your dependency on hope for the most good, and giving endless opportunities for second chances will only feed his illness and spiral you continually down. I’m sorry you are being chumped, but so glad you found CL. You are going to be okay.
    He is not who he has created for you to see. Read that sentence twice, write it on a post it and put it up on your bathroom mirror to remind you daily.
    It’s not easy getting away from these ppl, if they sucked every second, it would be a whole lot better. The pixie dust of hope that is constantly sprinkled around by them is completely counterfeit. Do not trust anything about this man, other than he sucks, and get away. (might have to dump those friends too if they want to justify his behavior, the real true friends would be telling you to RUN AWAY!!!)
    He is an entitled abuser who will get what he wants from life at any cost. He will not get hurt by his actions, but you most certainly will.
    So get out your best possible kitchen shears or maybe even the chain saw in the garage and cut yourself free from that complete wreck of a man. Once you scramble onto the life boat and drift a little distance away, you will be able to see what we are telling you is true beyond any doubt.
    He will continue to trample your boundaries as long as you are willing to let him.
    The UBT did a great job translating his abuse, please heed its exceptionally accurate wisdom.
    You’ll get to escape before the STD’s, the screwing up your children and the decades of living in a fog of confusion that will never fully clear and holds you back from your own precious journey of living and discovery.
    Bravo to you for recognizing that something is deeply wrong with what you are being shown. Your gut doesn’t lie, but your bf can’t do anything but.
    No contact is your reset button to a fresh start. You will never doubt that once you are free. Good luck to you. I’m happy that you found chump nation when you did, a whole lot sooner than many.

    • Aw thank you so much for the support. He is 100 percent a user and abuser. The OW is someone he said he doesn’t find attractive or intelligent he just had the feeling to have sex with someone else. Devastatingly cold and callous.

    • “It’s not easy getting away from these ppl, if they sucked every second, it would be a whole lot better. The pixie dust of hope that is constantly sprinkled around by them is completely counterfeit.”

      Thank you for that reminder. Every time my cheating wife gets all nice, like today, I start to wonder if she’ll “pick me!”

      And then I remember if her love object asked her to, she’d be on a plane in a second to go “support him” as she likes to say.

  • This is really simple. GTFO. You’ve only invested a year. He will cheat on you forever. Go find someone who wants to be with you. Consider yourself soooooo lucky you don’t have kids and property together. You deserve someone who wants you.

  • HTC, is English his first language? If it is, the way he words this letter is bizarre and tells me he is stupid AF. Is “It’s in the graveyard.” a new slang term I’m not aware of, or was he talking about pushing you to have sex in the graveyard?

    He says “You have to learn to say no when you don’t want in the moment.” Leaving aside the atrocious grammar, you DID say no, and he punished you for it, but somehow it’s still your fault. I guess he’s indicating that your no should have been more forceful? Perhaps a throat punch would have been sufficiently forceful. Well no worries, that could be arranged retroactively and I am available if he can pay for my travel expenses. I think I am in the good way to be better hitting him for myself. 😉

    But seriously, he’s a super weird and rapey creep, whatever his native tongue may be. Ignore, block and avoid at all costs.

    • Ya so I think he said that because I was reading a book about and talking about boundaries. I think he thought since I was reading about developing boundaries I’d accept that I wasn’t assertive. Oh he also had contacted me saying that he thought of a solution to reshape our relationship…this was his list:

      1. I have to say no more
      2. No penetration if I’m tired (but still bj I take it?)
      3. He stops lying.

      This was just around the time I found out…but pretty sure this list of how to fix our relationship alone is enough to diagnose this guy as a psychopath creep.

      • 😱

        Yeah, “no penetration” means he’ll demand bjs and hjs instead and expect you to feel he’s done you a good turn.

        It reminds me of my ex who actually thought he was being generous when, after me having near constant UTIs from too frequent sex (infections that were so bad I eventually needed surgery) said on the day after I had said surgery than in the future he’d “accept” getting sex only once a day instead of the at least twice daily sessions he “required” for his allegedly manly high libido. He capped it off with a mean-spirited “joke” about how he’d get it once with me and once by himself, equating me to his hand, FFS. Oh how very magnanimous of him.

        BTW, your ex will stop lying only if he loses the power of speech, and even then he’d surely learn to lie via sign language, which is not an easy feat. Fuckwits are highly motivated when it comes to lying and cheating and lazy fuckers about anything that matters.

        • And what about you ?! No reciprocity. Such selfish people.

          Who here remembers the “Sex and the City” episode where Miranda was having sex with some guy and he insists on watching porn during it. He repositioned her because she was blocking his view of the tv. I remember thinking “How rude !”

          • I remember that. I can totally believe there are guys out there who would do that, too. It was a stupid show in which we were supposed to sympathize with a cheater (Carrie) but sometimes they hit a truth right on the button. A peek inside the mind of your average porn nut could give you nightmares for the rest of your life. The people saying we should pity them, spewing; “It’s an addiction, and it’s as addictive as heroin!” can blow me. That’s an insult to all the people who’ve died from opiate addiction. Opiates are the most addictive stuff on earth. Porn doesn’t even make the top five. These clowns use it because they like it. They are not powerless to stop themselves. They don’t get dope sick if they miss a dose of TeenAss.com, they just get pouty because they’re entitled dickwads.

            Rant of the day concluded.

            • 100 percent. If they viewed the women in their as people worthy they would be offended seeing them degraded and humiliated. If you are addicted to something involving people the real issue is you see people as things. That’s the big picture. Truthaboutporn.org has lots of really horrifying research on the matter.

      • So it IS his first language??😱😱 I could have sworn he was a 23-year old horny Indian guy like the ones on Omegle. They talk exactly like that.

  • BTW, “Liking angel ass and two-timing cherubim.” is sheer genius. I would like to propose to the UBT, but I’m shy.

  • I know when you are the chump living this shit it really hurts, but from an outsiders perspective, these cheaters just seem so ridiculous. Why would anyone want this idiot cheater?? I say she dodged a bullet, and the AP did her a favor!

  • Thank you Chumplady:) I can’t believe how much support there is out there for minimizing cheating and other abusive behaviours. It really is important to have a space like this – I wish this was the central narrative out there rather than the opposite. By the way it was beach volleyball (people asked), so he would go there to workout at the workout park. He started going everyday though as He knew I played volleyball and has asked for space.

    Part of what I considered with him asking about multiple partners was that my father had a serial cheater dad (my dad has been a loyal husband for 35 years) but he had broken up with a girl he loved (dated her before my mom) before my mom out of fear he would cheat because of how his dad acted. So since my dad is a good guy I thought hey – maybe this is what men face if their dads were big cheaters.

    Not so! Anyhow that was partly why I wasn’t so quick to see it for what it was.

  • We need to bombard widely read publications like the New York Times with letters about CL, CN and the fact that infidelity is abuse!

    • That’s a great idea. It also needs to be labelled as such in the psych field. How does a man hitting a woman count as abuse or gaslighting but not casting a web of deception over someone and depriving them of their human right to make informed decisions? It’s not consent if it’s fraudulent! I’ve realized therapists don’t use the word abuse in therapy (the ones I’ve seen) really anyway. Like if someone is being psychologically absolve in other ways they might call it controlling, cruel or unfair but when I think about they don’t seem to ever label something abuse. Shouldn’t they be the first ones to do so?

  • I notice this fuckwit proposes a trade: he gets to fuck around on you and in exchange you can have a baby. What a deal. Not.

    There are much easier ways for you to get a no-strings-attached baby.

  • “Goodnight, I think that was all” Wow…….keeper!!! Not like he has to fight through 50 ninjas or hold the boom box over his head like john cusack…………that is all………I just banged one rando!!!! My text should say it all!!!!! I”m that in love with you!!!

    • Ya I can tell the whole thing is really going to help him grow…he’s on a magical journey to enlightenment as you can tell 😵‍💫

      • There is an old saying “If you could buy him for what he is worth, and sell him for what he thinks he is worth; you would make a fortune”

        Or the more succinct: “if assholes were airplanes, he would be a jet”

  • You were trauma bonded. It’s like the proverbial frog getting slowly boiled. You’re doing great. I suggest reading Patrick Carnes Betrayal Bond to help you understand what happened and to arm you with knowledge that can protect you from future vulnerability to this logic defying toxic type of person.

  • Honestly, he writes so poorly, I am having trouble reading it. I mean I can change it to make sense in my head; but is that what he was really saying? Who knows?

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