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He Cheated on Me with Prostitutes

broken heartHi Chump Lady,

I just found proof and eventually received a disclosure from my boyfriend of 1.5 years that he has been cheating on me with prostitutes since the very beginning of our relationship.

What hurts the most is this is not my first rodeo. My ex-husband did the same throughout our entire marriage unbeknownst to me. I filed for divorce after discovery and entered 3 years of therapy. I entered the relationship with my boyfriend slowly and carefully and asked a lot of questions! Including, have you ever been with a prostitute? And he lied.

He seemed so great! He was the opposite of my cruel, and angry ex-husband. He was also so sweet and offering to help everyone. Even devoted his life to a nonprofit. I thought I got it right this time! I feel blindsided.

I can’t believe I am here again. It was like deja vu as he sat there during disclosure saying all the same things my ex-husband did. “It’s not you. You’re perfect. I would’ve done this to anyone. This has been a problem my whole life. It doesn’t mean I don’t love you.” Blah blah blah.

What is wrong with me Chump Lady? How do I break this curse?


Double Chump


Dear Double Chump,

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with you! There’s something wrong with your boyfriend.

He’s been doing this his whole life? And… he was going to mention it… never? Just go on risking your health? Feigning commitment? Like it’s not cheating if you purchase them?

Despite your tragic encounters with two douchebags, all men don’t buy sex, okay?

You know what buying sex says about your “sweet, devoted” boyfriend? He loves a power imbalance.

He loves knowing he fucks sex workers and you don’t know.

He loves buying women. They don’t have needs, just payment plans. He can be as selfish as he wants to be. They’re just cum receptacles. No reciprocity required. No conversation. No messy emotions.

He is okay fucking someone who has zero sexual attraction to him. They feign it (or not). That’s a turn on for him — the utter lack of mutuality.

He is okay knowing that person may have been trafficked. Go read Nicholas Kristof’s The Children of PornHub.

I could go on, but then I’d be summoning the ghost of Andrea Dworkin on a ouija board. My point is, DC, HE IS THE FREAK here. Not you.

You don’t have a tractor beam for pathetic limp-dick Johns. There are just, unfortunately, too many pathetic limp-dick Johns in the world. Why? Because there are a huge amounts of systemic entitlement around fucking.

Choose any topic, and the Holy Right to Jizz Without Consequence is sacrosanct. Child support enforcement. Women’s reproductive freedoms — unwanted pregnancy is never pinned on the man’s irresponsible ejaculations. Prostitution — only the sex workers are criminalized, not the Johns or the pimps. Child marriage.

My point is — these two men formerly in your life are two entitled, ugly men. You don’t control them, you just control you. I don’t have a magic spell to break this curse. There’s just you and what you’ll tolerate.

When you knew, I hope after disclosure, you dumped him. I hope you tell people WHY you dumped him. Same with your ex. If we want to challenge the Holy Right to Jizz Without Consequence, we have to talk about it.

Oh, they don’t want to be shamed? You don’t want gonorrhea. They can fuck right off.

“It’s not you. You’re perfect. I would’ve done this to anyone. This has been a problem my whole life. It doesn’t mean I don’t love you.”

It totally means he doesn’t love you. He was a-okay risking your health to get his dick wet.

He loves his dick.

May they grow old together in a sticky puddle on the sofa.

DC, go find a real man.

Ask Chump Lady

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  • Thank you for this post. And for explaining the power imbalance. That helps me. All I know is that I got a diagnosis of trichomoniasis. My husband is acting like he has no idea how this could’ve happened. But I do believe sex workers and or strippers are his secret indulgence that he will likely never admit. Which is maddening. I feel like I deserve to know specifics, even though it will only hurt. So I haven’t pushed for any more specifics. All that matters is we are getting divorced. Worry about your sex issues alone. Keep me out of it! Just venting. Very sad. And we were still having sex on a regular basis, throughout 20 years of marriage. But I definitely felt that there were phases where he was checked out and/or not that into me sexually. I tried so hard to communicate and understand and he always pretended to be happy/satisfied. I may never understand. All I know is it’s time to save myself.

    • He will go to prison soon for that behavior as he did it to me. Fraud, rape by deception is a felony.

  • I get it. Sometimes lightning strikes twice and when it does, because we humans are story-making and connection-drawing beings, we wonder what in the universe or ourselves called it down upon us. My father became delusional in his 50s; twenty years later my husband became delusional in his 50s. My father was found by my sister right after he’d shot himself in the head; twenty years later her daughter began threatening and attempting suicide. When these things happen to us, we’re more likely to focus on ourselves as the common denominator, rather than on, say, the prevalence of mental illness, or, in the letter writer’s case, the ubiquity and normalization of porn, the general and specific dehumanization of women for profit, and the debased character of he who chooses to ignore harms to indulge his dubious pleasure.

    • “we humans are story-making and connection-drawing beings” what a beautiful way to put it, A. We do look for commonality and when being victimized is a common thread we seek to understand why. My parents and husband 1.0 were all disordered and I so often wondered what I did to deserve them when that had nothing to do with it.

    • Another way of looking at why lightening struck twice is abusers pick up on people who are genuine, loving, and empathetic such as the writer. These types have radar to find their victims. The covert types also work underneath a good guy mask otherwise how would they be able to infiltrate their targets? My guess is the writer ran into a covert narcissist and her first ex-husband was an overt narcissist. The covert types are more damaging. The signs are more subtile to recognize and if you aren’t informed they can gain trust and access into your life.

      Cheaters who use prostitutes are usually different from a cheater who has an affair. Both wrong but they are only about control, exploiting, and zero intimacy. These have poor coping skills and this makes them feel good to use and demean another. Sometimes this goes to younger and younger like Epstein. More power differential. It’s narcissist’s supply to their empty ego.

      They don’t change. All one can do learn the red flags of a covert narc and avoid them!

      • Truth.
        My covert narc cheater was disgusted by his overt narc friend seeing a prostitute. He was cheating with the office bike himself, exchanging his attention and adulation of her for sex, but it wasn’t an exchange involving money so that was okay in his mind. They’re all such hypocrites. Men who use women like that, whether they pay with money or something else, are misogynist scum.

        Stupid cheater even tried to claim our marriage was transactional. I asked him what he thought the exchange was and he clammed right up. He didn’t want to admit he thought of me as an in-house prostitute, cook, nanny and scullery maid. But he knew it too late, since it was already implied. So I told him that those services over the decades we were married would cost him a hundred times as much on the open market. I made up an itemized bill for him for ten million dollars and demanded my money. Fuckwit got very flustered and backpedalled on his “transactional” claim. ????

    • “When these things happen to us, we’re more likely to focus on ourselves as the common denominator, rather than on, say, the prevalence of mental illness, or, in the letter writer’s case, the ubiquity and normalization of porn, the general and specific dehumanization of women for profit, and the debased character of he who chooses to ignore harms to indulge his dubious pleasure.” perfectly stated, thankyou

    • Lightning doesn’t strike twice much. Trauma driven behavior does. Often. So not your fault but take action. I wrote below.

    • Thank you. This made me feel a lot better about having chosen two abusive men in a row.

  • Thank God for Chump Lady and her wisdom because on this subject, I got nuthin’ but a horrified look on my face and a wish to tell DC that Im sorry for what her former partners did. I truly hope her STD screen results are good. Im genuinely sorry for your pain. Heal well.

  • DC, from your ex boyfriend, right? Dump this walking disease vector. He is a liar and a cheater. That volunteering? That is just image management. This ex boyfriend is not worth a second of your time or pain. You deserve better.

    Tracy told you to go find a real man. A quick Search revels the fact that there are about 160 million men in the USA. Girl, that isn’t even accounting for Mr. Worldwide. The odds are in your favor. Get you another man.

    • Right……they think they can cancel out their horrible acts with good acts……there you go , scales balanced all good. I donated to the food bank, now I can go f*@k strange and lie about it. Cheaters suck.

      • Seasoned FW and predator Jean-Paul Sartre wrote, “Everything is permitted the hero.” He would know. He poured a ton of money and resources into helping activists fight against tyrannical governments around the world. He put himself in danger. And then he mopped up the hero spoils by exploiting and traumatizing a series of teenage girls. He had a certain lucidity about his own hypocrisy and wrote a semi-autobiographical character in the play “No Exit” who’s cruel to women while playing hero in public. But in the same play he basically smears the targets as hustlers and hussies and not so innocent as they seem.

        People who fabricate masks in order to exploit others would naturally choose the best models of human beings to mirror on the surface, not some mediocre, half-assed model. So it’s sad that, when encountering someone who seems heroic and philanthropic and helpful, you have to step back and wonder whether it’s real or just image management to compensate for something really dark.

        In my experience, certain rescuing professions and helping roles attract only the best and the worst and very little in between. It would make things a lot easier if we could either safely retreat into complete cynicism or trust everyone. But nothing is that simple. Too idealistic and you get burned. Too cynical and you can end up hurting harmless people. It’s a lifelong task to find that balance and it will never be perfect. Not even the FBI can successfully weed out all liars and frauds. I feel like the only thing I can do is take everyone on a case-by-case basis, build a life with the best souls I can find so that this becomes my family’s “norm” (whereby anything less feels “off”) and also protect my gut intuition from gaslighting at all costs so that my radar works optimally and isn’t being recalibrated by fuckery.

        • “People who fabricate masks in order to exploit others would naturally choose the best models of human beings to mirror on the surface, not some mediocre, half-assed model. “…. makes a lot of sense, thank you

        • “ recalibrated by fuckery” is an awesome phrase that speaks volumes. I may have to use that one as part of the revolution.

        • I work in non-profit land. Human rights and environment stuff. I can say this sector attracts the absolute best of humanity and some of the worst. You can’t make assumptions about someone’s character and values based on their job, unfortunately.

          • 100% Tupelo! My ex cheater and his OW are both working in not for profit charities, that’s how they met (and that’s also how I met the OW), and there they are doing charitable works and everyone thinks they’re angels *vomit*. I was so tempted after D-day to comment on their social media posts that they’re hypcrites but it would just make me look like the bitter ex-wife. So I’ve just blocked them on all social media, have been no contact for more than a year. But I have been a long time supporter of that charity OW works on and I still get a bit triggered from time to time when I see the logo. I support a different charity now that does a similar thing…

            • I’m right there with you. It’s disgusting. OW took over the charity walk for MY SON’S disability, and didn’t even tell me. I had always organized our team. I felt really, really uncomfortable about going to the event, but I did anyway. Mostly to make sure that she felt awkward about it. And she avoided me (and my ex), and didn’t even say hello to my son. She started volunteering for the group because my ex had a prominent position there, and she wanted to impress him. And then he got angry with me because I wasn’t involved. Like I wanted to be there with HER. Or him.

              Ugh. They were both disgusting, cheating hypocrites. And I didn’t say anything either because I didn’t want to come off as vindictive (I was in the middle of a heated custody dispute). Ugh.

      • Absolutely, yes! They don’t understand that a miscreant in private is still a miscreant.

      • Which is exactly what my cheating bastard ex did. I’ve hesitated to post on this today as sex workers and swinger site hookups (and a constant diet of pornography in between) have been his singular focus in life since before I had the misfortune to meet and marry the man.

        I feel like the wizened old soul when it comes to this form of betrayal now that I know just how bad it really was.

        The counsel I would offer to any person who has suffered the same is get out, make a clean break of it, and never look back. There should never be a dday 2, 3, or more when it comes to people who are subsidizing and driving the demand of human trafficking, exploitation of minors, and the sex trade.

        I shudder to think of the thousands of transactional acts of sexual gratification that demeaned and degraded the women he paid to control. And yes, those who can do this with complete disregard for their spouse are void of the capacity for intimacy and love.

        To be frank, I’m lucky to have survived. BUT, away from it, I thrive.

    • My abusive, cheating husband also did charity work. It was all image management. Everyone thought he was amazing, because they only saw his public face. However, I knew better. I also started to notice that he only wanted to do the volunteer work if it was visible to others – MCing events, being on the board of directors (which he never missed an opportunity to tell whomever would listen), leader of the group, etc. I called him out on it once and he got so angry. The charity frontlined “family values”, and he was cheating on me and abusing me. OW was volunteering there as well… I was sorely tempted to say something to the leader, but I doubted that she would believe me (“he’s such a nice guy!”) and I didn’t want to incur my husband’s wrath in the middle of our divorce, so I kept it to myself.

  • “May they grow old together in a sticky puddle on the sofa”

    The imagery……oh, the imagery…..LOL !

  • Double Chump: Every word CL said is spot on. GET OUT and go no contact. It is not you, you will never understand even if your hopefully EX explains it to you, he is a liar, cheater, betrayer, whatever. People of this character do not have the capacity to love and give their significant others what they deserve. You were thinking you and he were building a life together. He future faked you. VERY sorry for what you have been through with your EX husband and this EX, please realize that people who love us do not do the things your cheaters have done to you. Keep reading at this site. We are your tribe. You probably need a good counselor. Do not pin your hopes on someone who future fakes you along with all the other things he has done. Hugs.

  • DC, This is more common than you think. Besides having a regular Schmoopie that my STBX supports, he also has a hooker habit. He once said “It isn’t cheating if it is a hooker……”. Just one more cheater line to go on the long list of stupid shit that cheaters say. Hopefully he will be an EX in a few more weeks rather than a STBX.
    Just be glad you were not married to this cheater. Take some time and focus on yourself before thinking about another man. Cheaters seem to abound. There are, I am sure, men who do not cheat out there, I am sure that real monkey love is out there if we want it.

    • I’ve always wanted to reply to “It isn’t cheating if it is a hooker..” with, “So you’d be o.k. if I started spending some $ on gigolos’?”

      • My ex had the theory that since hookers have been of service for “ever” it was just normal for a man to use them when needed. Same for porno . Same for cheating because men were by design to do this . Yet after learning unequivocally of two affairs with no help from absurd unhelpful type counseling , I asked him one day . So is it an open free for all you want in a marriage? I thought his face was literally going to fall off and he was speechless! The idea of me with another, he would not like. How I could be SO unaware and blind to his deeds is beyond me. But he’s off with his last hook up younger one now. Good bye good riddance! Two cheaters in twined.

    • That comment about it not being cheating if he’s paying for it? Don’t they realize that makes them even worse men? Because they are explicitly choosing to regard a woman as a commodity to be traded, bought, sold, and subjected to legalized rape. How many so-called “sex workers” are there by choice and love their work?

  • DC, I feel ya! Big hugs and I hate it sucks right now. I was chumped 2x more after my ex narc. Sadly, all 3 were on the narc spectrum, all of them cheated, all were abusive and 1 became physically abusive where I had to flee for my life. That said, after the last one I took a hiatus from dating and I focused on what was causing me to be attracted to these sleaze balls. Believe it or not, for as perfect as they may have seemed these men gave you red flags (they all do), sadly you didn’t pick up on them. I didn’t pick up on them either and people shammed me for not seeing them (it even cost me job opportunities bc I was labeled as difficult and in constant turmoil). *I live in a small community so people talk, the people who truly cared about me disclosed that information when they found out not to be mean but to help me grow from all the crap so I could get out of the rut and find a stable job to take care of myself if 2 kids*. I finally found a therapist who wasn’t interested in my money but instead my growth….he fast tracked me through our sessions bc as he put it, therapist are notorious for keeping you in therapy so you will “self discover” and take your money bc they see you as a cash cow. He instead saw my anguish and told me exactly what was happening teaching me about boundaries, red flags, pathological/character flawed people, empathic people and why we are targets, etc. He did that in about 6-7 sessions and gave me homework such as reading “Boundaries” by Henry Cloud and “Wolf in Sheeps Clothing” by George Simon, how to identify red flags, educating myself through other resources, etc. What I came to realize through that enlightenment is that I was surrounded by narcissistic/toxic people and that those type of people were my norm. I had toxic friends, bosses, romantic partners, etc. and it all started with my family of origin as they desensitized me to abuse. *Note: Abusive relationships can happen to anyone, it is just more common with those who experienced abuse as a child.*. I also learned that once you experience a toxic relationship you are 80-90% more likely to end up in another one if you don’t allow yourself to grieve, heal, and then educate yourself on identifying red flags, and enforcing boundaries, no contact, gray rock, etc. It’s like now that you’ve been through 2 of these crap relationships you’ve got to build up your tool box of how to identify and stay away from the A-holes.

    In my situation, I distanced and/or cut ties with all the toxic people in my life (even quitting a job cold Turkey without a backup bc my boss was sexually harassing me to have a romantic relationship with him or he would cut off my salary). It was brutal! But, remarkably after I cut all of those toxic ties, my life turned on a dime. I’m 4 years Narc free. If anyone is a sparkly turd, I see it immediately and stay away!!! I found a great job making double what I was making, even with Covid. They know my worth. If someone doesn’t, I don’t try to make them see my worth (although sometimes I want too)….I just let them be. Fuck em’! No matter how handsome or charming or “Godly” they are….they show 1 red flag and they are out. Period! Know your worth DC! Educate yourself. Set boundaries. Say F-U to fuckers who have bright white shinny teeth and claim to be holier than thou all the while belittle someone in a serving position…even if it’s just a little jab (FYI – that’s a big red flag). These D-bags show you who they are….you’ve got to educate yourself so you can read their language and get the fuck away! Big hugs and good luck❤️

  • DC,

    This is awful. In addition to getting out, going no contact and getting the help that you need to process this, you should know three things:

    – Your Exs’ behaviour is not normal.
    – None of this is on you.
    – You owe your Exs nothing; don’t ever let them try to guilt you into “helping them understand why they did what they did and how they can avoid doing it again.” They f*cked around …. they now get to find out all on their own.


  • I love the Holy Right to Jizz without Consequences! This needs to be its own Blog entry/post/chapter in the sequel to LACGAL!! Just like the phrases: “Trust that they suck”, “Timid Forest Creatures”.

  • I can’t remember which article I read here but one of them linked to this site: From the about section: Dr. Simon is an internationally-recognized expert on manipulators and other problem characters. I’ve been going through this site too and it is spot on.

  • I have a question about PornHub. My ex posts his music on a website that hosts anyone who wants to post music there. When we separated, I found him at the music streamer’s site, and the link to his music page also brought up a link to Pornhub with his name on it. It’s remained there since I saw it over two years ago, and he continues to post music but hasn’t removed it. (FYI, I was looking for evidence. and found it. His lyrics described enjoying violence, and he had a note there advocating using a gun to solve disputes, so I forwarded the links, including his comments on his songs, to the parenting evaluator and my attorney. And notified police and neighbors, upped home security, etc.)
    Does anyone know why there would be a link to PornHub? When I clicked the PornHub link with his name on it, I couldn’t bring up anything there. I checked over a dozen other musicians’ pages, and they didn’t have the PornHub link, so it’s not automatic. What does this mean? Do you have to post content to get a link? Is it possible to find out if he did and what he sent?
    DoubleChumped, although I don’t know the odds that this would happen twice, almost anything, good or bad, can happen more than once. You asked the right questions, and he lied. That hurts, and I’m sorry it happened to you.

    • GF, where there’s smoke there’s fire. He has an account for paid content on PH. Live video sex chats, etc.

      I turned in my badge on the marriage police force. That is one job I will never do again! It’s the worst!

      • I did that job for a while too. Got very good at it. My lawyer loves what I was able to get. It is helping with the settlement. I wonder if you could make a living out of this? I would not mind helping other chumps this way.

        • I’m glad I wasn’t playing dick warden and marriage detective for 19 years. I literally never checked his phone or email because I was so focused on things like parenting, family health, work and writing and building a great future for the children. Regretting not being more suspicious would be the same as regretting that I was dedicated to all those other meaningful things. But when the worm turned, I also showed myself to be very good at sleuthing to the point that the veteran PI I hired suggested I take the training course for private investigation. We became pals and used to meet for coffee and talk about criminal psych and politics before COVID.

          But the hours wouldn’t mix with parenting and I thought of Nietzsche’s warning that if you stare into the abyss, sometimes the abyss stares back at you. Not everyone hiring PIs is doing so merely to defend against abuse and there’s bound to be a lot of up-close-and-personal encounters with evil and ickiness. What does that do to a person after awhile? Another problem is that so much PI work has to do with tech these days and that’s not exactly my strong suit. I don’t know if it’s lack of ability since my daughter is a whizz at coding and everything cyber-related. But I just lack interest or patience.

          I thought maybe a better fit might be studying criminology. There’s already and excellent foundation of research on perpetrator mentality, MO and red flags in fields like psychotraumatology and domestic violence but the most cutting edge work is often being suppressed for political reasons. This is probably because there are a lot of abusers in power in helping professions (playing rescuer as image management) or govt. agencies directing the work of helping professions who prefer victim-blaming theories. Because… duh. It might be more accurate to say that negative authorities seem to prefer “blame-splitting” theories because any time one points the fault lens at victims, that focus is taken off the abusers and vice-versa. When looking for reasons why these things happen, the act of focusing on perp psych and behavior is, by default, removing blame from victims. So it’s like joining an ongoing revolution to get into that vein. It also takes pressure off victims to untangle skeins themselves which can be psychologically harmful.

          But having no one tackle the skein-untangling unfortunately leaves the field wide open to the spin-meisters and apologists. No one is more motivated to find evidence that victims are at fault than abusers and many do it on a professional level. When I worked as an advocate for victims of domestic violence, I saw how many were helped by the solid theories and research because these countered the harm done by the victim-blaming pop-psych bs. We can see how the same theory-war rages on in terms of infidelity research. There are the Pittmans and then the Perels and it seems the media and powers-that-be perpetually promote the Perels. Frankly I don’t think these are separate information wars since, to my mind, cheating is simply a less athletic form of battering and the MOs and profiles of perps are similar. Current research is finding parallels as well. There was a study finding that those who harbor “infidelity tolerance” often also harbor “rape myth acceptance.”

    • Hello, I’m sorry I can’t help but I wondered if it might be worth posting your question on the website mumsnet? They have a lot of threads about cheats and there are quite a number of regular posters who are really good at answering questions like yours. Someone there might be able to help. You’ll see that the posters their often, often recommend Chumplady. So sorry you’ve been through what you have.

    • GF: You might google your question and see if an answer to your question comes up. I do not think this is a coincidence. Check credit card charges, etc. but he can hide payment. Cheaters cheat and liars lie.

    • GF: You might google your question and see if an answer to your question comes up. I do not think this is a coincidence. Check credit card charges, etc. but he can hide payment. Cheaters cheat and liars lie.

    • So interesting that these guys (and gals, too, maybe) let so much slip in their music lyrics. I got a LOT of info from my ex’s YouTube channel where he’d post his original stuff. I gave it all to my lawyer, and she found it very interesting.

  • I heard a detective on the ID Channel say, “You only know someone as much as they will let you.”


    Picker-fixing will never be an absolute guarantee of screening out dreck. Staying awake, staying aware, and being willing to walk if you discover deal-breaking facts
    is the tool for dreck that gets in under the radar. There’s just always going to be that risk.

    I can’t see inside other people. No one can.

    I was not willing to walk when I got the indicators about Traitor X.

    I am the only person that I am guaranteed to be with for the rest of my life. It’s scary to admit, but that leads me to remembering that I do have absolute control over me, and I can always find my way to safe people if someone has shown themselves to be from the Dark Side.

    I can’t see until I see, and when I do see, I want to respond in a way that reflects love and care for myself. It’s all I can ever do in any given moment, no matter what happens. And to me, that’s what the goal is.

    There is no failure on your part in discovering he is a fraud. There is a lot of victory in discovering he is a fraud and taking steps to protect yourself.

  • So everyone sees him as a reallt good guy who helps people and has even devoted his life to a nonprofit. Look up “altruistic narcissist,” because he may very well be one. People who live double lives and are very good at hiding it and compartmentalizing the different things they do often fall on the narcissism spectrum, the far end on the scale being psychopathy. Altruistic narcissists get attention from all their puported good deeds, as well as control over people for all they “owe” them for doing so many nice things.

  • This is only tangentially relevant, but since CL mentioned Nicholas Kristof, I want to recommend Half The Sky, the Pulitzer Prize winning book that Kristof coauthored with his wife, Sheryl WuDunn.
    So much about the abuse and oppression of women worldwide that I had no clue of, living as I do in my little privileged western bubble.

  • All the therapy I have done and continue to do is not a firewall that going to 100% prevent bad things from happening to or bad people from getting in.

    It gives me support, assistance, and tools to avoid, navigate, or extricate myself from situations and keeps the tools handy and sharp.

    There are some situations I can learn to avoid. There will always be some situations I have to learn to navigate. There will always be situations I will realize I have to extricate myself from.

  • Oh, Double. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I know the feeling way too well.

    I divorced my whore fucking husband of 20 years when I found out about his ongoing hooker habit.

    Before D-Day, I would’ve bet the on my life that my husband was the last person in the world that would see a prostitute. After D-Day and many years of retrospection, I realize it was completely in his nature to take advantage of everyone and everything he could. It finally all made sense.

    It’s not you. It’s not you. You did nothing. It’s not you, it’s not you, it’s nothing you did or didn’t do, it’s not you. It has nothing to do with you.

    It’s not you.

  • Dont blame yourself. I picked my FW because he seemed so different than my parents. Outgoing, funny, charming, affectionate. Unfortunately, NPD people can be introverted or extroverted, loving or aloof. They are charlatans. They may not even know they are NPD, their narcissism is a defense. Hg tudor sheds light on the types. Moving forward I guess my inly advise is assume everyone is like this till proven otherwise. We are conditioned to ignore our gut feelings. So now I just assume that my paranoia is real and factual. Crappy way to live, but realistic.

    • You’re in fine company. “If a way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.” — Thomas Hardy.

      Also journalist and activist Chris Hedges book “When Atheism Becomes Religion” is really about Utopian cults more than about faith or lack of it. It’s a compelling defense of healthy cynicism. That book isn’t long, is written in plain language and the bibliography is solid gold since Hedges quotes every literary and philosophical figure in history who ever wrote about the dangers of Manichean idealism. Philosopher Karl Popper also warns about this. Popper wrote, “Those who promise us paradise on earth never produced anything but a hell.”

  • I think there is a lot of -as Shallon Lester would say – “fuckkkk boys” out there. Too many women accept it instead of being solo. I can’t believe the shit I used to put up with from boyfriends! I’d like to go back & slap my younger self! Of course wasn’t that shown the norm? The suffering GF with the Peter Pan BF in movies, on TV shows, at high school, at home? ????

  • yes its about power, cheating is about power, the the prostitutes will tell him how wonderful he is, hes that stupid he will think he is wonderful. unfortunately some have sti(s), may have hiv, get tested. many prostitutes will charge more for unprotection. u can still get herpes using a condom

    • The creepiest part of it is that even if these exploiters are shown the human cost of prostitution and the porn industry, it just turns them on more. One of the most popular subreddits is something called (I think) “Dead Eyes” where users share clips of porn performers who are so traumatized, in pain or drugged (usually during gang-bang or torture sex that, as investigators discovered, often involved real rape and real pain) that the light literally goes out of their eyes. I read about it but couldn’t look at it because something that horrifying would live in my head forever. Then someone invented an “AI girlfriend” which became popular because users could abuse, neg and threaten the cyber partner and rejoice in its complacency.

      There are women who are into sexual cruelty as well. I wasn’t surprised that the AP in my situation was a big fan of particular violently pornographic crime novelists who have become infamous for depicting sexual torture in exhausting, graphic detail. Again, I can’t stick my head in that sewer but I’ve read excerpts in research and, aside from being really badly written, the content is unimaginably horrifying and gratuitous. I don’t recommend even reading the excerpts.

      The takeaway for me is that detached sex will always circle back around to our rapey ape roots. Not everything primal is wholesome and good. Our species also used to be infanticidal cannibals. We’ve evolved a bit since but there’s always a danger that stripping away the capacity for love– that one thing that keeps the primal ooze at bay– exposes something horrible at the core. Why not leave that shit buried? As porn users become more and more numb and require more and more extreme content to “get off,” there aren’t a lot of directions this can veer. And even in boutique kink like foot fetish or clown porn and the rest, there’s the fact the performers are STILL exploited, still often trafficked, still risk early death and are very often dead by the time the content streams. So what is also being consumed and numbed against is death and cruelty even if, on the surface, the content seems to have nothing to do with this.

      The tastes of most porn users are generally less specialized and typically become either progressively more violent or more pedophilic or both. And like training fight dogs, exposure to cruelty and the practice of aggression make users progressively more callous and cruel in all aspects of life.

      • Hi, HOAC! Honest question here, I hope you know I hold your opinion in high respect. Do you think that this claim of yours about practicing aggression leading to increasing calloussness and cruelty does somewhat apply to the practice of full-contact martial arts? I have read you state a version of it relating to some debunked Freud’s hypothesis just the other day and it made me wonder. Full disclosure: I am a long-time practitioner of traditional shotokan karate and brazilian jiu jitsu (never a fan of UFC, though; my lineage does not goes through any member of the Gracie family). I like to think of myself as a calm, mild-mannered, self-restrained man and did never involved myself in anything you could call aggressive behaviour (if you not count participation in some tournaments in the respective sports derived from these arts). Am I maybe fooling myself to believe (with only anedoctical evidence) that these disciplines are fostering my self-control and not the opposite? It would be hard for me to know (and to admit, if this is indeed the case) because I started practicing at a young age and it is ingrained in me by now. I ask you please to be honest (with no regard for my maybe too flattering self-image): am I maybe just self-indulging in something that I like for reasons I don’t want to become fully conscious to me (and which would sure make me ashamed of myself)?
        How sure you are about your initial claim? I don’t know is my question made sense to you, but I don’t want to foster callousness in my kids or me (any further). But I really can’t see me checking the “callous, cruel” boxes in any way whatsoever. Many thanks if you could clarify this to me.

        • Fellow martial artist here, and a woman. Not HOAC but felt compelled to respond to this.

          In my opinion, there’s a world of difference between practicing martial arts and raping women onscreen for profit. They’re entirely separate universes.

          I don’t know you and can’t speak to your personal development. In general, I’ve seen consistent and dedicated martial arts practice instill thoughtfulness and discipline in people. Any teacher worth their salt will tell you martial arts isn’t about domination. My teachers would chew my ass out or dismiss me altogether if they heard I was picking fights and hurting people.

          But, if someone starts a fight with me, I have the skills where hopefully I can finish it or at least the muscle memory and awareness to escape.

          There’s no benefit whatsoever to sex work or porn, because there’s never been any benefit to women in raping us, let alone on an industrial level.

          If you’re worried about some hidden monster within you that’s being fed by your practice, this might be worth discussing with your teachers or a therapist. No shame in doing so, and IMO it’s even a sign of good martial arts practice, which requires consistent thoughtfulness and self-inquiry.

          • “In my opinion, there’s a world of difference between practicing martial arts and raping women onscreen for profit. They’re entirely separate universes”.

            No, of course, I didn’t mean anything like that, my god! It was probably an awkward place to put my question, because the bulk of HOAC post was about the porn industry, and I just took the chance (awkwardly) to ask her to please elaborate on something she commented about Freud in another, totally unrelated post. Totally my bad. The fisrt post of hers got me thinking, but I didn’t have time to comment the same day. So I think I misplaced the question here. It has to deal only with her very last phrase about training dogs, that reminded me of her previous post. Sorry, sorry, sorry, HOAC (and Cam and everybody else). There’s no excuse for having ignored the main theme of the post just to ask something so off-topic.

            “In general, I’ve seen consistent and dedicated martial arts practice instill thoughtfulness and discipline in people”.

            That’s unfortunately not my overall experience, I have witnessed a lot of bad-naturedness on dojo, coming from experienced people. But it is my personal experiencr with martial arts and I can say the same for a few people I know personally. Anyway, this is only anedoctical evidence and HOAC usually brings an educated perspective involving research, so I was curious is there has been any study in this direction. I try to convey Kano’s and Funakoshi’s teaching to my boys and to counterbalance the gratuitous aggressiveness and one-upmanship they can find in some training places. My fear is: am I fooling myself? They look more self-confident and less anxious (the younger is autistic and even his early aggressiveness subsided completely).

            “There’s no benefit whatsoever to sex work or porn, because there’s never been any benefit to women in raping us, let alone on an industrial level”.

            Yes, of course! I want to clarify once more that this was not my point. In fact, I missed the point completely. I am ashamed and sorry. I sometimes see one tree and miss the whole forest around. I don’t know the first thing about porn, no interest at all, I wouldn’t spend a iota defending something like that. Please, forgive me, it was just social awkwardness (my forte).

            “If you’re worried about some hidden monster within you that’s being fed by your practice, this might be worth discussing with your teachers or a therapist”.

            Good general advice, but not my case at all. I think (and many acquaintances tell me so) that I indeed lack some healthy degree of aggressiveness. What I have been through with my FW XW for some decades now would surely put me in jail at some point if it wasn’t so. I think no monsters at all, and that’s what got me thinking in the first post. If I recall correctly HOAC’s phrase was something along the line “practicing aggression fosters aggressive behaviour; there’s no puffing steam off by practicing aggression”.
            I can’t fool myself that when I choke someone, or apply an armbar, or throw someone, or kick or punch someone I am not “practicing aggression”. I am and I know that I am. Even in controlled settings. Even striking a punching bag is practicing aggression (now I recall HOAC’s post mentioned explicitly the bobo doll experiment). I know “there’s no first strike in karate” and all that, but training always begins with a first strike (interestingly, I conciously avoid being the first to strike or throw, to keep up with the niju-kun).

            Well, that’s it. Quite a rant and I am deeply ashamed of my awkwardness. Not an apologist of abuse of any kind here. Quite the contrary. Just asking silly questions at the wrong times. Sorry.

          • And thank you very much (I honestly mean it) for making the awkwardness of my post clear to me, Cam. These social hints help me to learn how to behave in more socially acceptable ways. I will try and be more careful and not assume a context that’s only in my head.

  • My ex cheated with prostitutes, likely for all of our marriage and then some. When you feel like you can pay for a person’s body like this, the dysfunction and entitlement is real and it is dangerous. Get out and don’t look back. And it’s not you — it never was. You were the perceived safe place from which they thought they could continue this shit. And I say place because they never saw you as a person. So think of all the good that you bring to the table…just bring it to another table. You deserve reciprocation, honesty, and safety too. Hugs.

  • I think I’m going to print out this post and carry it around in my pocket. Wow. A few well chosen words. The Holy Rite to Jizz Without Consequence. The entire letter made me think. I just dipped my toe back into the dating waters and started seeing a guy who appears to be entirely different from my ex except for the fact that they have the same name. Trust is such a hard thing for me to build when everything in my marriage had been a lie. So far, no red flags but this letter is a cautionary tale that you can do everything right and still get a lemon. I hope that the OP dumped this guy pronto and doesn’t look back. It isn’t the chump, it’s the cheater that’s the problem.

  • WeAreThe Chumpions, thanks for mentioning the term altruistic narcissists. My ex didn’t do anything altruistic, but when he didn’t get paid for something despite billing for it, he later listed it as volunteering. And when he was ordered to write a letter of apology to our kiddo, he claimed he had been trying to help people in need find employment, and had sent them money. That was how he described sending money to strangers he “met” online after asking for pornographic pictures.
    Double Chumped, he may have been using the nonprofit as image management—or as a stalking ground for women or children to abuse. If his work there includes client contact, perhaps you should inform the organization of his prostitute habit.

    • If I’ve learned anything about narcissists over the years, the most important thing to them is what people think of them, not who they really are. Ultimately, they can’t stand themselves so have one or more fronts they’ve erected. If they had to evaluate themselves they wouldn’t like what they see, if they could even find it. They will defend that front at all costs to the detriment of other people and loved ones, because the mirror would surely shatter if they took a good look in it. What a sad, pathetic way to live. They are victims of themselves, so some wish to feel sorry for them and try to help, but the black hole is too deep and wide, the pull down into it too strong. The only thing we can do is leave and no contact.

      • I know my narcissistic ex hated himself deep down. Once in a while he’d let the mask slip a bit and I could see what a scared, sad, pathetic person was hiding behind the confident (often to the point of arrogance), charming persona he managed to project. I tried to help him for years. And years.

        Eventually I had to accept that there are some people you cannot save. I like the saying “stop setting yourself on fire to keep someone else warm”, because that’s what I was doing. It was killing me. I had to walk away. In the end, my ex took his own life because he couldn’t face the fact that his façade was rapidly crumbling. OW had left him and was very vocal that it was due to abuse, which threatened not only his job (they worked at the same place), but also his volunteer work and his custody case (the custody evaluator and the court seemed to be tending toward favoring me, and believing my side of the story), and he was completely out of money and falling deeper and deeper into debt. It’s one thing to spin a story about how you left your bitch of a wife and finally found true love (even if that was NOT the order in which it really happened). Harder to do damage control when both your ex and your recent ex gf are both accusing you of abuse. His carefully constructed world was shattering. He would rather go out as a victim of everyone else than for one moment consider true remorse or take responsibility for his actions. It is tragic, but they will only drag everyone down into the abyss with them.

  • According to that article CL just sent, Pornhub gets 3.5 billion hits a month!! A month!?!
    I had to read that three times just to try and take it in.
    According to a study they mentioned, Pornhub has the third greatest influence on society in the 21st century behind FB and Goggle.
    That’s shockingly unreal!
    The pervert machine has created it’s own deviant pandemic, which has stretched its roots enormous distances with very deep and far reaching effects, impossible not to be felt by the entire planet on some level.
    That’s so terrifying to imagine!
    It’s no wonder some of us run into these porn addicts and abusers again and again, it’s an ubiquitous situation.
    But is that all that is out there in this world, abusers, liars, deviants and porn addicts?! No, that will never be true. I will never believe that to be true.
    We didn’t personally create these problems, but we sure live in a world that has them, and the collateral damage from it will be endless I fear.
    Evil will exists alongside the good, it always has and it always will, and there are many that succumb to its powerful pull.
    But we don’t have to live in that space and we can be very influential on our tiny side of the street, even if it starts with just freeing ourselves from abusers. It matters.
    We start a slow moving domino chain to help and influence others in doing so.
    Double Chump, sorry you ran into two of these losers that hurt you so badly.
    They seek good ppl, so they can hide behind your goodness and do very hurtful and dark things under cover.
    They get to stay under the rocks you unfortunately found them under, you get to move ahead and shine your bright light wherever you go.
    All these negative experiences have altered our realities, but we get the freedom to stay true to who we are and how we want to live in the world. They can’t take that from us.
    It might take us a while to find where we belong, but we already know, it isn’t with abusers.

    • I think the thing that bothers me most about porn and sex workers is the entitlement. That many feel entitled to the naked bodies of another person without having to put time, love, and thoughtfulness into building a relationship and trust with that person.

      It’s no small wonder that people are drawn into it. It’s the same as passing out free money you don’t have to work for. Or drugs that make you feel great even though your soul is a empty void. It’s a short cut to a wire monkey of happiness.

      I think most of us here would rather have a honest day of work and real monkey love, like CL describes!

      • My stbx believes the sex worker he has frequented for the last 2+ years loves him, that they have a karmic connection. He has built up an entire fantasy around this woman, failing to see she wants easy money. He claimed during marriage counseling that she was a “victim” and that he’d betrayed her trust, as I, his partner of 34 years, was holding him back from his destiny. The wreckage for our children and for me has been unreal,

    • I let my NY Times subscription lag but does the article mention the epidemic of ED related to chronic porn use? I think the rates of ED in young men between 18 and 30 used to be something like 3% or .3%. Since the advent of streaming porn becoming easily accessible by kids as young as 9 or 11, the rate of ED in the same age group is reportedly around 30%. I’ve seen these statistics questioned but not from reliable sources.

      Add in the modern chemical shitstorm effects– that young men today have half the sperm counts of their fathers’ generations and the epidemic of PCOS and other hormonal issues among young women– and I foresee a dystopian fertility crisis looming if it’s not already here.

      Are there any long term studies about mutagenicity and Viagra use? I see research tentatively barking up that tree ( but getting no headlines and apparently little follow-up, likely to the degree that these drugs are blockbusters, anything criticizing blockbusters tends not to get funding and the public might be burying its collective head in the sand. That would be yet another element to the shitstorm that ties the reproductive harms of pollution to the age of streaming porn.

      The sky is falling because the sky can’t get it up anymore.

      • “The sky is falling because the sky can’t get it up anymore.”

        Quoted for quote-worthiness. Great posts today HOAC.

        • Lol, thanks, I thought I was being too glib considering how serious the subject is. But it’s laugh or die these days. xoxo

          • I have never seen you being glib, HOAC. Always exquisitely worded, well researched info and actually helpful (not just intellectually provoking) insights ans takes. I am grateful for you sharing your experience and wisdom so liberally with us. Today you’re on fire. *Love* your posts and try not to miss any one of them.

      • That topic (ED epidemic in young men caused by access to and use of online porn) has been a cover story in Time magazine, more than once I think.

  • This one hit home and hit hard for me. My FW didn’t hire hookers but he did hire strippers. Dozens and dozens of strippers. Bottomless and topless lap dances for decades that I didn’t know about. He recently described to me taking off his shirt afterward in the club bathroom to wash his torso, arms and hands to “get the stripper smell” off himself before he came home. Sometimes also washing out his boxer shorts in the club sink as well. This image is now playing on a loop in my head. And yet he “loved me the whole time” and this “was never about you”. Yeah riiiiiiight.

    • MW: How painful for you that he would describe this garbage to you. I hope he is your X or STBX now. One thing that gets me about today’s letter and comments: Why are the comments so low in numbers today. Is everyone sick due to the subject or are they ashamed to comment truthfully. I have learned a lot here today.

      • He is my STBX. We are separated now and have been for six months. Freedom is coming!

    • My WH has some fantasy about strippers…2 years ago I caught him texting one. He claimed and still does that he was only getting his cocaine from her. Fast forward to last March. WH decided to hit up another club. This time he ended up having a 5 month affair with one that was 20 years younger. After all of the Ddays with his AP, the last one I got a text from her ex boyfriend that she was off and on with while she screwed my husband. Supposedly my WH got her pregnant and paid for her abortion. The entire thing makes me sick. Obviously it’s too much for me to live with, our reconciliation hasn’t had one good day in the 11 months since Dday 1 and he is about to get served with divorce papers.

  • Somewhat off-topic (though still connected Cheaters-who-want-to-escape-consequences), my university is doing a production of the musical Fun Home, based on Alison Bechdel’s graphic memoir. The chumps out there who played unwitting beard for a secretly gay cheater would probably find a lot to relate to. I reread the book–and I’ll see the show this weekend–and the story of Alison’s mother really struck me this time, no doubt because when I first read it I wasn’t hooked up with this great community.

    So much of Bruce Bechdel’s behavior is like the stories I’ve read here. The sudden inexplicable rages and fits. There’s a story about “visiting his old roommate in Germany”– on the way there, Husband picks an awful and insane raging quarrel in the car. Weeks later, Wife discovers “old roommate” was really “old lover.” Such a classic Cheater move! “Hey, I’ll take you to visit my old lover while pretending he’s just an old friend, but on the way my resentment and ambivalence will erupt about a situation I totally engineered. Psyche!”

    Just one example of how he took his resentment and unhappiness out on wife and children in ways that were…pretty cruel.

    • I read this book out of curiosity because it was on the banned book list in some school districts. I had horrible feelings while reading it & figured early on that the dad was hiding some sort of secret life. I’m not great at picking out red flags but at least my feelings are kicking in & I’m listening to them now.

  • It’s a choice to be made. After betrayal and heartbreak do we date again, or stay happily single?

    Decide what the parameters will be. I waited until I knew my now bf for 3 years before we moved in together.

  • I experienced the same thing with multiple spouse infidelity, although I don’t think there were prostitutes. I was so disappointed to find that there are many women who just don’t care if the man is married, and some who prefer it that way. I just cannot understand that, so I just stopped trying to figure it out. The point was my spouses felt it was ok to cheat — no matter what caused it, it was their decision. My spouse’s behavior was not acceptable, the relationship was done.

    That, of course, is a simplified version of the complicated process which happens in the dissolution of a relationship after you become disillusioned. But the essence is there. Do not blame yourself for dealing with forces you do not understand and cannot control. Seeking therapy to improve your perception and establish your boundaries is not accepting blame. It is an active choice you make to heal, and to train your perceptions to be more discerning. It is hard work, because you have to overcome FOO training, societies dogma, and that pervasive concept that males have a right to jizz without consequences. You become a stronger, better version of your core self. You do not lose your compassion, but you learn to be more discerning and think in a clearer more logical way about your own wellbeing.

    I believe in my core that I was designed to be a good wife and mother in my younger years. I did my job. Now that I am older, I do not feel the need to be a wife, and I keep men in the friend zone. I feel safer that way. Freedom is sweet. I do not see myself ever giving in to the desire to wed again, but I believe that is due to my age. I am not afraid of love, but I am very picky.

    • I also think a lot of the ones who prefer married men know they can’t compete in the single market so they target married men with low character.

      Hey a meal ticket is a meal ticket.

      • Those howorking whores were the ones my FY H liked the most. They all needed saving and wanted a nice fat meal ticket.

    • I think the way in which women feel betrayed by other women’s fully-informed participation in cheating depends on how much they expected from women to begin with. I had a very close relationship with my late mother and, like her, have always had amazing female friends. I just could not compute how women could stab each other in the back like that.

      But we humans have a mysterious ability to miss the things we never had and this is not to say that those who had fraught relationships with their mothers or were in environments where women don’t support each other might not have been all the more hurt that their fragile hopes for sisterly loyalty were dashed yet again by the betrayal of other women. If you expected better, you might feel paralyzing shock, then overwhelming betrayal. If you were barely hanging onto hope, it might be like almost getting out of the haunted house when the monster hand reaches up through the porch floor and grabs your ankle.

      It all pretty much sucks. We should all expect better.

  • Go find a real man?


    Figure out that you don’t need someone else as a lover/partner to live a really good life. Work on that.

    If God/the universe wants you to have a man… one will be provided in due course. In the meantime… work on you. Do the things you enjoy and gain peace and balance with. Educate, create, discover yourself. Find a way to contribute to your community…
    If your community isn’t doing it… move.

    Find your tribe. You don’t need to find a man.

      • Soooooo Sorry! You got years of therapy after 1st cheater, then were slow, careful, & asked questions of 2nd cheater, BUT but got betrayed again, via hookers again. UGH. The unfairness is staggering.

        • Sometimes I wonder if talking about porn use during the early stages of a relationship will backfire. If the guy is heavily into it & finds out you are not ok with it, I’d think he’d go great lengths to hide it. And he’d up his impression management to sidetrack you.
          This could also happen if you disclose that you’ve been cheated on. New guy hides the fact he’s been a cheater.
          Maybe it’s better to keep some personal information to yourself until a good, long history of trustworthiness has been built up and you’ve had enough situations with the new guy to be able to witness how he treats women when no one is looking, how he speaks of women to guy friends when he thinks no one can over hear, and to get an idea of his browsing history & money trails.
          I don’t ever plan to date again but I think about these things for my daughters.

          • Agreed, and it sucks that we have to play Sherlock Holmes with every potential partner. I’d rather have no partner than go through all that.
            But DC is younger and doesn’t want to be alone. I feel for anyone trying to date again after being with two such pigs. After my two longest partnerships turned out to be with pigs, I gave up on relationships. I barely got out of this last one alive (suicidal ideation), so it’s too risky.

            I hate that DC thinks it’s something wrong with her that attracts them. The depressing truth is that there are so many of them and they hide it so well that the chances of anyone getting involved with multiples of them are high.

          • Totally on spot about not disclosing too much in the beginning. Also, I think “accidentally glancing” ovee their browsing history is a must (albeit there os incognito mode though). For all genders, I would add. I was appaled to find out what kind of awful deeds, desires, and doubts my FW XW (of whom I had a saintly image up to that point) was confiding to Dr. Google (PhD, MD, FWD). Little short of how to get away with murder and nothing short of “who is the father”. And don’t get me started on money trails…

    • Well find yourself. Find a friend. A woman. A pet rabbit. A new life. My point was flippant, but there are good men who don’t screw around. Double lives and “secret sexual basements” are transgressive and real men, real partners, don’t abuse. I’ve said here many times happiness is NOT necessarily another relationship. But thanks for underscoring it again.

      • There aren’t a lot of men my age set that aren’t “old or full of mischief” (Cold Mountain, Ruby Tewes) and I’ve simply given up trying because it’s too much work…. And the LAST thing my two girls need is for me to be dating some guy any time soon (if ever) since their own dad checked himself off the planet 3 weeks ago. It doesn’t matter how wonderful he might be.

        I’m sorta sad I will never be able to model a happy marriage for them, but my brother and sisters and my parents can….and I get to be Mom without having to please some guy. I’ve proven I can’t pick them… and I’m not willing to try again. God’s going to have to plop him in my lap with a guitar and a cowboy hat before I’d even consider it….

        • I heartily agree with you. My son has been through enough. My ex also committed suicide last September. My kid is only 9, and he’s already dealt with witnessing our abusive marriage, me getting kicked out of the house, OW and her kids moving in, abuse in THAT relationship, OW fleeing without a word, and his dad’s death… I don’t need to be inflicting another adult on him who could potentially abandon him. It’s just not worth it. I’m not lonely. I am not wholly against ever being in a relationship again, but it isn’t something I’m at all interested in pursuing at the moment. And I don’t think I would ever get married again. I like having my autonomy too much. The peace and freedom are priceless.

          Honestly, I would rather model for my son that you don’t NEED a relationship to be happy, or to be a family. We are very happy with just the two of us.

  • YEARS ago, my boyfriend got a blowjob from a stripper. I discovered this through his text to his friend. But he said it was just a joke. Well my dumbass went on to marry and breed with him. Fast forward, he hired a hooker (I found the credit card charge). He said nothing happened. I filed for divorce. Don’t be like me. Leave now.

    • My STBXFW also got a blowjob from a stripper, though he claims he “just bought the condom but never went through with it”. I’m ashamed to say that I believed him while deep in the RIC fog. I later discovered that he went to clubs between 30-50 times getting topless and bottomless lap dances most visits. Strippers do a lot more than just take off their clothes. And lap dances are basically just legal prostitution. I feel absolutely sick at the thought of all he did behind my back.

  • X FW coached Little League but his most favourite pass-time is fucking prostitutes and Craigslist Randos. Good ole Image Management right there. He passed the Criminal records check required for people holding positions of trust with children in order to coach. I don’t think the RCMP would give him the seal of approval if they saw his internet searches and fave pages.
    These imbalance of power sickos can fuck wayyyyyyyy off!!!

  • The righteous talk here is a balm to my anger addled soul.

  • Today’s letter hits home. Three months ago I accidentally discovered that my now ex-spouse was screwing randoms (men, women, couples, groups) from online hookups for YEARS…all unprotected sex and probably the entire 15 year relationship. This also included escorts and a crack whore on the side for good measure. I was/am devastated and trying to crawl out of this dark pit of despair and get my life back. This is also my second time being chumped – first husband cheated too.

    I NEVER suspected a thing and he presented as a man of integrity, was always loving towards me, and we’re planning to grow old together. Little did I know what a pathological liar and deceiver he was/is! He’s some kind of sociopath/addict/narcissistic piece of shit who stole my reality, my security, and put my life at risk.

    Even though it hurts like a motherfucker, I thank God every day for showing me what this despicable excuse for a human really was. Otherwise, I’d still be in the dark – he told me he was never going to tell me and was never going to stop.

    There has to be a special place in hell reserved for these disordered scumsucking dickeyed slimeball assholes. Can’t wait for that karma bus to make its rounds!

    • I agree with your last paragraph.

      Honestly, it is still hard to believe how my fw was able to pull of the shit he did for so long. Not just lying to me but to lots of folks. Yes I am sure he had co conspirators but a lot of folks believed his “image”.

      I am one of the lucky ones because first I got out of the whole mess with no debt, and second I got to actually see that the Karma bus rolled over him, backed up and rolled over again.

      Still didn’t take away the pain of losing 20 years of my life to a lying dirt bag.

    • My FW cheater porn addict is so engrossed in image management it’s a miracle he has time for anything else.

  • My stbx also cheated with prostitutes, telling our young adult children that “all men see prostitutes.” He is currently in a over two year “relationship” with the same hooker, believing she loves him and he is her only client… He is a doctor (currently unemployed for failure to comply with drug and alcohol testing) and she is a high school drop out who loves to gamble, use drugs and party. She’s 19 years younger than him (“I’d never get to touch that amazing body if I didn’t pay for it”). Her stripping days are numbered as she has psoriatic arthritis in her hands, making it hard to grip the stripper pole apparently. My worth has been destroyed; our plans that I’d waited so long to come to fruition are gone. He will do them with her or the next. I’m left in my mid-50s with no career, an empty nest, and a crushed spirit. Never in a million years would I think the person I married would cheat, much less with a prostitute.

    • I’m so sorry. He’s lost to the fantasy fairies like mine was.

    • I am so sorry that he did these horrible despicable evil things to you.

    • Faithful Rage my heart aches for you. My ex threw me, our family, and the life we built together away for prostitutes. He’s a doctor. He said he picked the clean ones, said that this was very common and I should just get over it. 27 year marriage. I’m 5 years post DDay and 3 years post divorce. I was told that I was so naive that I made it easy for him. Empty souls, they are all the same. My ex was a good actor. I thought he was a devoted family man, christian, all around good guy. I didn’t realize that I was living with a monster. And yes I’m still struggling. It’s a colossal understatement to say that he wrecked my life. Doing the best that I can. Be kind to yourself. I have been reading ChumpLady since the beginning and it literally saved my life. There are so many things I wish I would have done differently in the beginning. I’m a much different person today, but still trying to figure out how to truly accept what he did to us and put it in the past. I cling to the thought that this was revealed to me for a reason. Hugs to you.

    • You’ve just described a horrible, shallow man. I’m so sorry you were put through this. I hope you find joy. I too, put aside my needs, for others over and over and over again. It’s a bad habit I guess. Time to change habits.

  • This hits home because this is how I was chumped over a 36 year marriage. I’ll never know the full truth but from the snippets I was told and from things I observed, XH was heavily into porn prior to our marriage & it escalated into exhibitionism & then into prostitute use & then into a subscription to FriendFinder& then I didn’t find out anymore because I knew I was done with the marriage.
    I didn’t know about his porn use & promiscuity prior to marriage: we both grew up Catholic so he knew to keep it secret. He had a job traveling out of town & the hotels also had porn videos, back before he carried his own notebook computer.
    We never discussed his use of porn. I guess I assumed we had the same values but in retrospect, if conversations ever came up prior to having kids, regarding sexual values, I brought it up & he agreed & didn’t seem to be concerned. That habit continued after having kids & trying to agree on what/how to educate our children. Same pattern: I brought up the concern, he agreed with me, he never brought up concerns or ideas himself, he was always agreeable. This was his main method of hiding his real values, and his “outside the marriage” sexual activity always happened on business trips.
    Credit cards were proof. He tried SA & I tried s-anon, & these groups just broke my confidence that it was really his problem alone. Saying things like “you are like 2 heat seeking missiles guaranteed to find one another.”
    GAG! If he had told me, I would have not married him. That’s why he hid it. If he had told me later when he started using prostitutes, I would have run away with my kids.

    The only time I waver now in confidence that it was him, not me, is when I reflect on how I grew up. My home was good, but not great, & I was actively taught to ignore my feelings, to have only the minimum of needs, and to accept hardships in marriage. I wonder if I accepted an unacceptable relationship (the lack of emotional connection) & if I always will accept less than. It’s not that I’m questioning whether I caused him to cheat but I’m questioning whether I just accept less in a relationship which would allow a cheater many chances to fool me. It’s hard to know as I married at 24 & stayed married for so long. I don’t even want to try again. I’m content with being a grandma, the few good friends I have, my work, & my hobbies. So in some sense, my upbringing readied me to live independently.

  • I have been going down the rabbit hole of a YouTube channel called Soft White Underbelly wear a photographer makes very well lit videos interviewing prostitutes and tricks in Los Angeles skid row. I have been waiting for the Chump Lady post that would make it appropriate to bring it up, and here it is. The site ostensibly means to humanize the lives of some of the most addicted, disenfranchised prostitutes and people living in on Skid Row and elsewhere. And I do think it does some interesting work showing how clear the connection is between prostitution and childhood sexual abuse.

    The channel is problematic in many ways. The man who does the interviewing is not trained in trauma work and is very clearly skilled at making a girl feel pretty. In some ways it’s trauma porn itself. At the same time you do get to hear people telling their own stories.

    I started watching it because it validated for me just how prevalent childhood sexual abuse is, and how often it’s perpetrated by people close to the victim, and to validate how damaging it is, how I might have turned out myself, and how it gets normalized to blame the victim and gaslight the young person who tries to resist being taken advantage of. Most of the women are not happy with what they are doing, don’t respect the men that pay them, and are basically treading water. Of course there are higher end escorts that don’t make it onto this channel; these women will make around $50-$300 for an encounter and they describe escorts in hotels charging 600 or $800 and up for an encounter. The number of them who describe being taken advantage of before they were 14 is many.

    Why I say it’s validating is because the mistreatment I endured as a young person is on a continuum with all of this behavior. And the ways that I have sought comfort and safety in relationships, while at the same time only ever having been close to men who don’t know how to relate and end up using people rather than healthily relating, and so picking the same kind of here-baby-I’ll-save-you guys who really are doing it to make themselves feel manly, is all visible in a much harsher way in the lives of these women. I have learned how common it is for women to be in prostitution because the man who posed as wanting to be their boyfriend, or who offered them ‘safety,’ eventually forced them to work. I’ve learned the term Captain Save A Hoe, which is the type of the guy who fixates on a girl and thinks he can be the daddy that takes her off the street, but there’s still a power/exploitation angle on it. It’s not that far of a leap, culturally, or ideologically, to the men who just do this on a smaller scale, who don’t want to pay, but who think that being your boyfriend/husband is about getting sex and support from you. The prostitutes on the channel describe their clientele often as “they’re usually married/mostly married men,” etc.

    I see the Johns as participating in this economy. For this group of people, they seem to be working with what they see as the way the world is. Some men will mess with their own children, nieces, grandchildren, etc. The tricks feel somewhat better because they pay for what they want. The women learn to survive by charging for what they’ve learned already that men want. I’ve learned a lot about how many men learn from a young age how to pimp their own cousins and sisters etc.

    There are johns/tricks on this channel, too. They are of course very human, even though we call them pieces of shit here at CN for the harm they do. I watched their videos asking myself if I would be able to tell they used hookers just from their personality and body language. I think now I have things I’d look for, but I wouldn’t unless I had specifically asked myself “what is due diligence on my part, to assure myself this guy doesn’t have a sex addiction / porn or hooker habit?”

    I’ve written about this before on this site, but to me now, prostitution and abuse are just features of the same world that produced the legal institution of marriage, that for centuries was just about securing domestic work and a clean vessel for one’s offspring. I believe the shock many girls and women experience is part of the same system that enforced and valued innocence/virginity/purity/unawareness in us, as the very features that made us marriageable. I don’t doubt that many, many men believe ‘most men see prostitutes’ and that many people (still) see marriage as transactional.

    My hope is for the Gen Z kids and later, many of whom have come up knowing what porn is from exposure on the internet, without necessarily being abused at home. Young people make jokes about old pervy men asking for pix, and sadly most girls will have been solicited for nudes by friends by the time they are 12. I have hope for a world where we stop training ourselves to aspire to be pure, happy, Christian wives who live true love and have husbands playing the prince at home and “devilish desires” on the down low. I hope for a world where we learn about how men, people, use violence and abuse to control others, for service and for money, and how they use porn/titillation/hazing/bullying to make sure shame keeps us in our place, and try to figure out what partnership looks like from there … since we’ve got a dying planet and autocrat warmongers to deal with together.

    Phew, guess I wrote another little essay.

    • *where, not wear

      And oh yes: for those who have trouble believing how gleefully someone might cheat, or any who might be helped by seeing their gf isn’t the only one who giggles about how she’s a naughty hottie, one of the vids on the same channel of a person named Frenchie was jaw-dropping to me in how she bragged about cheating on her fiancé. Many of the women inspired sympathy from me, but not this person. I thought, the moment I saw it, of all the people here on CN who described witnessing their FW’s “duper’s delight” when no one else was around. It’s plain as day here.

    • This is nothing short of magnificent! Truly and totally on point and amazing. Thank you for this beautiful insightful gift!

  • My ex also bought sex. I also got trich. He lied, lied and lied about it. He also got sex from the underground S&M clubs he went to. But it my case it was my fault. Why? Because I didn’t do what the hookers would do. Why? Because I didn’t know he wanted that. He said he had to go to hookers because I was too vanilla. And yes, compared to the power and control games he was playing with others that was true. It’s all so maddening and gross. He couldn’t have a genuine sex life such as “making love” to me because he couldn’t be truly intimate. I know that now and it hurts. I’m really angry he blamed me for it and basically said I was inadequate in bed. I think once he had a taste for paying for what he wanted and had the ability to use his torture tools on them, it was game over for me. No one else in my life, including my new lover, has ever thought I was bad in bed. Only my husband of 25 years who confused hookers with a real sex life that includes love and intimacy thought I was somehow pretty lame. It really hurts.

    • I was also blamed. After years and years of being rejected, I stopped trying and then I was told that he had to go to dating websites because ‘I wasn’t into it.’ I cannot begin to tell you the RAGE this fills me with. PS, I think we should all rock our sexy selves how we want but I also know that some idiots might think I just wasn’t adventurous or attractive or something. Nope. That’s not it. He just needed ALL the control, ALL the time.

  • I’m watching the Netflix documentary right now about Jimmy Savile, the UK’s pedophile that fooled the country for decades.

    Bernie Madoff, Elizabeth Holmes. There are always going to be self-centered predatory people on the planet.

    Cheaters and cheating accomplices are predatory unhealthy people. It hurts like hell to find out you trusted one, but at the end of the day I never wanted a partner who could do that.

    My first therapist taught me that all relationships have problems, and the trick is to find someone you can work through problems with.

    You can’t work through problems with a person who lies and is willing to betray and hurt you. Those kind of individuals are in and of themselves a fatal problem, guaranteeing no trust and safety, two essential qualities of a successful, healthy relationship.

    • ” I’m watching the Netflix documentary right now about Jimmy Savile, the UK’s pedophile that fooled the country for decades.”

      I’m from the UK, and I used to watch “Jim’ll Fix it”, and thought what a great bloke he was, Rolf Harris as well.

      But the older I get, (70 now) the more I realise how foolishly trusting we are to accept at face value the persona some people project. My cynicism has grown exponentially – the latest scandal in the UK is yet another MP who has been outed as a cocaine user and womaniser. And of course his wife is “standing by him”. Sigh.

      The only thing we can do, in our *personal* relationships is to practice vigilance, look out for red flags, and *most importantly* take *time* before we launch into a relationship – I’d go so far as to say 5 years as a minimum, wankers like the OP describes probably couldn’t sustain a facade for that long before the mask slips.

      In fact, I’d say that anyone who tries to hustle a relationship along quickly has something to hide – my ex was like that. Ugh.

    • Self confidence love and respect for oneself are instrumental . Those who’s self esteem or thought process to say no and stand up for themselves because of early predatory trauma or an earlier culture when women were more apt to servitude to men has been a long process to break. There are sex workers who do like what they do and the money from it. Soft white underbelly interviews many and many use excuses for staying. The key in most all in life is that we free to choose. It is not always easy to break free of course but it is a decision of choice. My current residence area is prevalent for misogyny and objectification. The women are more often loud as if they must do so to be heard or taken seriously. It’s as if since moving I went back 100 years! My ex never divulged his ideas on hookers and porn until later after I caught him cheating but he had utilized these methods for sex with hookers when single . So I guess this was always his entitlement default. He came up with many assorted entitlements . I will never again over look any red flags. If and when I try men again that is. Maybe never.

  • No chump lady you’re inaccurate. This story is suggestive of deep attraction to abusers due to a trauma bonded parent relationship creating anxious attachment and until this is deeply healed you’ll find the one abuser in a crowed room. There’s little chance there were zero red flags. You have to learn to see them like learning a foreign language. Sounds like you were “love bombed”. I recommend you try something like Lisa Romano’s 12 week narcissistic abuse recovery program and read Betrayal Bond by Patrick Carnes. Just blaming the bad other isn’t going to attend to the root trauma and attraction.

    • Beth, did you came on Chump Lady’s site to tell her she is “inaccurate”?

      You are blaming the victim. They have to heal. They have to learn to identify “the bad other”. It is their fault for attracting the “one abuser in the crowded room”. Why, there were red flags galore!

      Where is your condemnation for “the bad other”? Do they get a pass? There would be no victim of any without the perpetrators. Where are your wise words for them? Why not pass judgement on their lack? The perpetrators need to heal their deep attraction to their victims. They need to heal their narcissism. They need to learn to quit abusing their spouses.

      I’m done with being blamed for being abused by a cheater. Or did I miss something and this was sarcasm? Sarcasm is hard for me to catch sometimes.

    • Beth, Double Chumped did not make her boyfriend and ex have hooker habits. Those choices are on them. She didn’t drive them to it. And they both concealed this from her. She was supposed to intuit their lies? Their double lives? Carnes created the “sex addiction” treatment industry and is infamous for his victim-blaming.

      • Ok! It wasn’t sarcasm! Chump Lady’s take on this reaffirms my newly emerging belief in my own ability to see some bullshit! Thank you so much Tracy.

    • Beth, you’re clearly into the RIC up to your neck. We don’t blame victims here. There are a zillion places you can go to do that. This blog is like a life raft in in a sea of stupid and despicable victim blaming. Do you also blame the victims of financial fraud, claiming they were “deeply attracted” to con artists and need to work on their FOO issues? No? Then why should it be any different for a romantic con?
      If these men had openly fucked hookers there’s not a chance in hell she’d have been with them. Given that, how can you claim she was attracted to abusers? That’s such bullshit, Beth. There may have been red flags or may not have been. Some people are that skilled at deception. I know it’s comforting to think there’s a magic formula for spotting someone who lies and lives a double life, but there just isn’t. That’s the depressing truth and CL does not shy away from it. She is grounded in reality, unlike the RIC.

    • “This story is suggestive of deep attraction to abusers due to a trauma bonded parent relationship creating anxious attachment and until this is deeply healed you’ll find the one abuser in a crowed room.”

      What utter crap.

      Everyone here has been abused by someone they loved and trusted. Are we all ‘deeply attracted’ to abusers, for whatever gobbledygook ‘reasons’ you cite? Pfft.

      The truth is there are a lot of shitty people out there, and it isn’t always easy to spot them, because many of them are past masters at hiding it.

      Your smug post is the *last* thing the OP needs to hear, and not just because it’s smug, but because it’s not true.

      CN is here to help, and *empathise* with our fellow chumps, who have all been taken in by glib abusers. Don’t come here and suggest someone who has been a *victim* is in any degree to blame for their abuse.

  • Part of my infidelity recovery has been to give my daughter access to healthy sex ed resources. Here are some from our library:

    S.E.X., second edition: The All-You-Need-To-Know Sexuality Guide to Get You Through Your Teens and Twenties

    Girls & Sex: Navigating the…

    Women, Sex, and Addiction: A Search for Love and Power

    Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists,…

    From Diapers to Dating: A…


    S.E.X., second edition: The All-You-Need-To-Know Sexuality Guide to Get You Through Your Teens and Twenties

    Girls & Sex: Navigating the…

    Women, Sex, and Addiction: A Search for Love and Power

    Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists,…

    From Diapers to Dating: A…

  • If it can provide any consolation : you are not alone – my ex also ‘used’ sex workers.
    In an ideal situation I would cut off all contact and hope he would f*ck himself into oblivion.
    But we have a daughter together – we share custody. And I wonder – how do these FWs evolve? Does he keep on visiting prostitutes till he dies without a care in the world? Will he eventually get caught (prostitution is mostly legal here)? Does he look for a new partner/victim? What kind of woman would be OK with a man who visits prostitutes regularly? Will he lie? Will he stop?
    Can he hold up his facade while caring for our daughter? What kind of an example will he set for her? If he can ‘use’ sex workers – how does he view other women? Are we all just inferior people with holes that he can put his dick in or that can provide some other service (cleaning, cooking) for him?
    I don’t think I would send my daughter to a friends house if I knew the friends dad had a hooker/porn habit. Yet I do have to send my daughter over every week. I hopes he hides his dark side (I knew he was selfish early on in the relationship but he managed to fool me for years with his perverted double life) and I hope my daughter never has to find out what he is capable of.

    • These are horrible questions that you’re asking, TWNM, but unfortunately these men do this shit & leave others to deal with the consequences. I cringe when I think who I really lived with. I was married for 36 years and knew of some hooker/porn behaviors, all the while hoping & believing his lies that he’s not doing that anymore, that it only happened once or twice. When I looked back at bank statements & credit card bills, I saw it never really ended. I’m glad I don’t know everything as it’d be gross. But I am angry he didn’t didn’t let me know enough to make better decisions.
      I raised 2 daughters & 2 sons during that time. I suspect he kept doing worse because he spent less & less time being interested in us, more & more time on his computer, he lost his job (the company suddenly downsized), he really had no interest in finding another job while on unemployment as I also worked, and the girls lost interest in him & as they got older, they began actively avoiding him. One of my sons noticed his dad’s behavior changed over the years that he was out of state at his first job & asked “did dad start drinking again?” A counselor told me that if my then husband was not in counseling, his behaviors are sure to get worse. That counselor saw the out of control sexual activity as either getting better with help, or worse without help, no in between.
      After realizing that I didn’t have to put up with not knowing the truth about my marriage, I divorced & told the adult kids basic facts (dad used money without my knowledge, dad struggles with porn & other sexual activity outside of marriage. This has gone on for years & I’m not safe. I have an STD because of him.) Each one of them wanted differing amounts of information. I have a DIL & grandchildren & she thought to ask “are the kids safe being alone with him?” I was slightly prepared for that but it still hurt. I think trauma is dealing with undesirable events that are not even supposed to happen.
      You didn’t say how old your daughter is, grade school or teenager, but with some basic truths about why you divorced, she’ll probably begin to figure him out. He may just fade away as mine did, especially if your daughter is great in an average way. The XH grew away more quickly from the kids who had no “bling factor” – nothing for him to brag about to others. He always took accolades for raising the one who got into a prestigious university & gave less & less attention & assistance to the kids who were just average, & left the one with a disability to my care alone. His time was clearly taken up by other activities. So sad. I alternate between anger and intense sorrow for him – I hate to have to see that any one messed up his life so much that his kids don’t speak to him. And I also continue to feel relief, that I am OUT.

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