A Serial Cheater’s Relationship “Advice”
People send me a lot of Crazy Cheaters in the News sort of stories. Not surprisingly, most of them are written by cheaters, trying to justify cheating. They let us know how edgy and sophisticated philandering is, or on the flip side, how sad and damaged they are (but still how much they enjoy what they’re doing).
Common denominator? Don’t judge!
I understand why news outlets run this crap — it’s total click bait. Who doesn’t enjoy a sordid sex story? I know I do.
But I do wonder over time if this kind of “everyone is doing it — and it’s cool!” discourse doesn’t erode the common sense notion that cheating is, duh, wrong. It’s cheating. You’d be appalled at the guy taking money from the till, or hiding aces up his sleeve, or cribbing his neighbor’s answers for the entrance exam. But a quick naughty on Craig’s List? Carry on!
Recently an alert chump sent me this article: “I’m a Female Serial Cheater, And Here Are 6 Things I’ve Learned About Relationships.”
I know. She actually supposes she’s been in a relationship. As opposed to just hustling poor schmoes for kibbles. But being a grandiose DSM-manual sort of narcissist, she’d like to impart some wisdom on us all. I’m sure you won’t be surprised to learn We’re Doing Relationships All Wrong.
The 6 tenets of her faith?
1. The less “online” your relationship is, the better.
2. Sex is wonderful, and should be enjoyed like food.
3. Monogamy is not the ultimate form of love, nor is it only related to sex.
4. The most important relationship you have is with yourself.
5. You can cheat on someone without cheating them.
6. Life is long, and should be lived well.
At first I thought, oh boy, do I even write about this? Do I match wits with a sociopath? (You can cheat on someone without cheating them? is up there with It’s not kidnapping unless I say it’s kidnapping! or They’ll never miss that $500K from their pension fund! Embezzlement is such an ugly word!) But then I thought — oh why not? This is just standard shit cheaters say 101.
1. The less “online” your relationship is, the better.
My aversion to internet activities is not limited to the lovers I take — every kind of relationship I have is as real-life as possible. I avoid social networking, I text very little, call when needed, and always make a point to see people in person when possible. My boyfriend and I met at a dance class, and never became friends on any kind of social network, because maintaining a certain amount of distance and mystery is important to me. And frankly, whether with someone you’ve been seeing for years or someone you’ve just met, it heightens every pleasure. When we see each other (as with a lover I might meet up with on a business trip), we’ll just give a restaurant and a time, and not speak until we meet. Our contact is intense, deliberate, and entirely in-person. We touch while we talk, and we look each other in the eye. The less you can do via technology, the better.
Ostensibly this “less online” thing is to show us how authentic she is. “Our contact is intense, deliberate, and entirely in-person.” Yet, “distance and mystery” is important! — of course it is. Less chance of getting caught. How dumb do you think we are?
2. Sex is wonderful, and should be enjoyed like food.
See, that’s the problem with mere mortals with morals. We don’t enjoy enough. We aren’t gourmands. We probably eat the same tuna casserole night after night after night, unaware of all the foie gras and artisan cheeses. Boyfriends are like your “favorite restaurant dish,” but why would you order the same thing?
Apparently we also need reminding that “sex is wonderful.” I. Never. Knew.
I want to dispel the notion here that a relationship that is sexually healthy will not result in cheating — to the contrary. My relationship with my boyfriend is intensely sexual, and when we’re together, I think of (and need) no one else. We make love often and are constantly exploring one another in new, exciting ways. But we have been together for years, and while his love stands far above any other I might have, it’s not the only love there is to be had. He is my favorite dish, and I can order him each time I’m at the restaurant, never tiring of his flavor. But the world is vast and delicious, and I want to try as many dishes as possible while I’m here. My explorations only enhance my desire for him, as well. I taste something unfamiliar but thrilling, and then I yearn for the comforts of my favorite dish. I would never deny myself strawberry simply because I prefer chocolate.
People are just like ice cream flavors!
3. Monogamy is not the ultimate form of love, nor is it only related to sex.
First of all, I have never believed in monogamy, because I don’t think that humans are built for it in any meaningful way.
But you’re totally cool letting your boyfriend operate by that set of monogamy rules. It’s okay if HIS existence isn’t “meaningful,” but you’re a special sausage — so your existence must be.
But even if I did, I know in a very personal way that one can be monogamous in many more ways than sexual. With my boyfriend, I am completely monogamous in intellect, in emotion, and in true intimacy. I want to have his children, and wake up beside him when I’m 80, and buy a house along the Mediterranean to drink wine in and watch the sunset. In that way, there is only one man in my life, and I have no interest in another.
Yes, you have no interest in other men that can’t offer you houses on the Mediterranean. You like to fuck them, but you’re only unfaithful to the man you want to have children with.
Yeah, that makes total sense. Along with “one can be monogamous in many more ways than sexual.”
mo·nog·a·my
məˈnägəmē
noun
the practice or state of being married to one person at a time.
the practice or state of having a sexual relationship with only one partner.
ZOOLOGY — the habit of having only one mate at a time.
Hey, monogamy can be whatever you say it is because you’re special. I’m special too. Today I’m defining monogamy as “People who wear madras trousers on golf courses.” I’m not monogamous either!
I can know someone’s body without wanting to know them as a person, and I go into my affairs knowing that it is for the physical pleasure, and the personal affirmation. They can be fun, and new, and thrilling, but they don’t compare to the real monogamy that I have at home. And being able to “look in the window,” so to speak, only affirms my knowledge that my boyfriend is my true partner.
Yes, as long as you don’t know people as a person, it’s not cheating! Do you know anyone as a person? Are you a person?
4. The most important relationship you have is with yourself.
Yes, you aren’t defined by your relationships. Got it. Except the relationship you have with yourself and the last time you asked yourself about your relationship, yourself said “We’re AWESOME!” and “Have you lost some weight?”
When I take a lover, I do it for myself. I find it empowering and exciting, and it makes me feel deeply alive. It’s a story that I have entirely to myself, a sun that rises and sets in my own mind. Part of the reason I seek affairs instead of an “open relationship” is because I profoundly enjoy the privacy and the intimate knowledge I share only with myself. I love myself in a way that is as visceral as the love I have for my partner, or a close friend. I want to be good and generous with myself, and indulge the desires I have, while indulging those of others. At the end of the day, I am deeply satisfied with the love story I have cultivated in me.
“I profoundly enjoy the privacy and the intimate knowledge I share only with myself.” You mean the intimate knowledge of your cheating that you’re keeping from your boyfriend, right? Heady little power trip, isn’t it?
Did you see this news article that narcissists tell you exactly who they are? Made me think of you.
5. You can cheat on someone without cheating them.
It is true that I sleep with other men and my boyfriend is unaware of it. There is no getting around that, and I’m not afraid to say it (to myself, of course). I am not in denial about what I do, and I quite enjoy it when I think of it. But in practice, in our relationship, I cheat my boyfriend out of nothing. I am a giving and thoughtful partner, and an eager lover, and am as concerned with his needs and desires as I am with my own. No matter what I’m doing at any moment — even if I’m in bed with the Argentinian photographer Matias whose body makes me feel lightheaded — if my partner calls me, I will catch the next plane home to be at his side. His priorities are my own, and my lovers only invigorate and ignite the passion I have for him. I think of myself, in some ways, as his loyal Queen who happens to have a few cicisbeos. At the risk of sounding conceited, I believe that he is the happiest coupled man he knows, and it is my pleasure to know that he wants for nothing. My lovers are taken on my own time, and never interfere with what we have.
What a fabulous creature you are! A queen! With Argentinian photographer lovers named Matias. And you jet from lover to lover!
God, I feel so dull and unworthy. I’m married to a middle-aged lawyer named Paul. But hey, he has all his hair and he buys me breakfast tacos. It’s not a plane ticket to Buenos Aires, I know. Are you risking “sounded conceited”? Heavens no. You sound deranged. Like some imaginary Danielle Steele character, instead of the banal, muffin-topped, sociopathic housewife you probably are.
6. Life is long, and should be lived well.
I suppose I’m lucky, in that I’ve never felt particularly constrained by society’s ideas of what a relationship should be. I am not embarrassed or ashamed of my sex, and I never have been. But as I’ve grown, I’ve learned more and more that life is far too long (and too beautiful) to be tediously wasted doing what you believe is “right,” and not what works for you. There are many years ahead of me of travel, love, exploration, and evolution. I will have children, and meet new people, and learn things I did not know yesterday. And I intend to do all of it while being happy, fulfilled, and wonderfully free of judgment. I wish you all the same.
I believe that’s what Putin said as he annexed the Crimea: “I’ve never felt particularly constrained by society’s ideas of what a relationship should be.” Followed by: “I’ve learned more and more that life is far too long (and too beautiful) to be tediously wasted doing what you believe is ‘right,’ and not what works for you.”
If seizing a Ukrainian beach resort feels right, by God, TAKE IT! Life is too beautiful to do without.
The voices in my head told me to tell your boyfriend you’re cheating. They also told me to steal your purse, set fire to your car, and give your pets to people I deem nicer than you.
It works for me.
I hope you’ll be as “wonderfully free of judgment” for me as I am for you.
Well this is disturbing when you think about it:
< I want to dispel the notion here that a relationship that is sexually healthy will not result in cheating — to the contrary. My relationship with my boyfriend is intensely sexual, and when we’re together, I think of (and need) no one else. We make love often and are constantly exploring one another in new, exciting ways. But we have been together for years, and while his love stands far above any other I might have, it’s not the only love there is to be had. He is my favorite dish, and I can order him each time I’m at the restaurant, never tiring of his flavor. But the world is vast and delicious, and I want to try as many dishes as possible while I’m here. My explorations only enhance my desire for him, as well. I taste something unfamiliar but thrilling, and then I yearn for the comforts of my favorite dish. I would never deny myself strawberry simply because I prefer chocolate.
People are just like ice cream flavors!
What do you do with food? You “consume” food. And then you shit it out. I think her metaphor is probably apt but needs expanding.
Look I see women like you fighting for their lives in ICU everyday it’s like this don’t string anyone along in you escapades. Be honest that you like to explore let that other person explore that with you it keeps everyone safe
That’s at the heart of her rationale. People are things to consume. And her life is lived inside of her head. I actually agree that the most important relationship you have is to yourself, as how you see yourself in the world will determine how you relate to others. She sees herself as someone who “consumes” life, people and experiences.
I think you’re right.
Step into my parlour said the spider to the fly!
That’s a perfect quote! Gosh she sounds like a horrible human being. I hope her BF finds out, and squashes her like the big, ugly, hairy spider she is! Ughhhhh
Well, I will agree with the first sentence. My marriage involved a lot of intense sexuality, and he still cheated.
“Well, I will agree with the first sentence. My marriage involved a lot of intense sexuality, and he still cheated.”
Same here, Patsy. Our sex life was never a problem in the marriage. Although when he was in the long-term affair with final OW, he wanted sex a LOT more than before he was with her. Creep.
Yes, my husband actually thanked the OW for the great sex he had with me. Sick.
I zeroed in on “He is my favorite dish, and I can order him each time I’m at the restaurant, never tiring of his flavor.”
Translated: He is there to provide me kibbles. I like his kibbles a lot, but the best part is that I know he’ll always give me kibbles.
When I want cake, I go fuck someone else because who doesn’t like cake?
So true. I immediately thought “kibbles” when I read this.
And isn’t that the tasty “shit sandwich” her boyfriend has to eat?
She has impulse-management issues.
It’s only an issue if somebody has a problem with it, right?
She apparently has no problem with it, and if anybody else does… not her concern… apparently.
Just a few random thoughts….
If she found out her boyfriend was cheating, it would probably destroy her.
She’s full of shit.
I’m wondering if the author is Dr. Tammy, or that other chick who is getting ready to release a book about “the new monogamy.” The ones who post their bullshit all over the cheating stories on Huffington Post. They think they know so much. But they are also full of shit. Basically, if you are in a relationship but you can fuck other people but there’s a “rule” that you just can’t kiss them or be in love with them, or spoon with them, well, you are an idiot. Who is full of shit.
Sometimes I’m floored that cheaters can’t see just how narcissistic they are. But then, why would they, that’s the rub.
Your first thought it spot on in my opinion! Wonder if that author’s “favourite dish” is sampling something local while she’s whoring it up overseas.
What makes you think they don’t know how narcissistic they are? What if they are good with being like that instead?
I think that’s it, TH. Mine said “I like being a narcissist!”
Truer words…
I got “what if I WANT to be like that?”
Life is so much easier if all you have to care about is yourself.
That is disgusting! I could hardly stomach reading it! She obviously thinks she’s Gods gift to men! And she has no moral compass! Is that the life she wants for her imaginary children? She is a bug that needs to be squished!
I think she feels that she is God’s gift to the whole effing universe, actually.
Ugh! What a stomach churning load of bullshit : (
That is some truly twisted logic… Makes my head hurt the double standard she implements with her boyfriend…An open relationship is not advisable, but at least honest. Unfortunately, I am pretty sure this was my STBXW’s thinking throughout her multiple relationships long distance and with neighbors.
Not to excuse Putin, but he had to have Crimea strategically as Russia’s Navy is based out of there due to Russia’s lack of warm water ports…Point is this horrible cheater is much worse that Putin, at least he is applying some strategic logic to being an asshole. She just is an asshole for no good reason other than being more powerful and awesome than her unknowingly victimized boyfriend.
This is what is so ridiculous about cheaters! They truly believe they are SO clever and winning – but the imaginary game they are winning has been slanted from “GO”.
They’ve proven by choosing to lie and betray others, that they don’t have the natural courage, tenacity or cleverness to play and be successful at an honest, fair game.
Oh but keep in mind..she is justified, because she is just do damn absolutely fabulous! Head and shoulders above the rest of us, you know.
At 47 I’m not sure to be frightened or delighted that people can still shock the hell out of me! Just when I think I can’t be surprised anymore, CL finds this gem. It’s so outrageous, it’s actually laugh out loud funny. It’s also pretty scary to think that people actually believe this stuff.
I just so wish I could be there someday when someone uses her twisted logic on herself.
“The voices in my head told me to tell your boyfriend you’re cheating. They also told me to steal your purse, set fire to your car, and give your pets to people I deem nicer than you.”
“It works for me.”
Somehow chump lady, I don’t believe it would work for her! Just Wow!
My god… That was the most self-righteous, narcissistic, vomit-inducing, egomaniacal load of CRAP I have ever seen. I’ve seen some huge loads before but jeeezus this woman is in the running for most full of herself pile of pure selfishness in the universe. What the fuck did I just read?!
This chick either couldn’t get a boyfriend in high school and/or got screwed over badly by someone early on. She has no idea what it is to love someone or be in a relationship. Here’s to hoping someone enlightens her poor boyfriend before he catches something.
She’s so special.
Outspoken.
Hell she’s being so honest.
Bull shit!
When D Day comes she won’t sound special. She’ll sound like a common cheater.
We only kissed, I didn’t mean it to happen, it was only the one time, it meant nothing…
Did I leave anything out?
“When you attended to your other obligations I felt neglected! I didn’t WANT to do it! I felt I had no recourse!”
“I wasn’t out LOOKING for him/them! I don’t know how it happened!”
““I wasn’t out LOOKING for him/them! I don’t know how it happened!””
Man oh man do I hate those words! I got that from STBX asshole! It happened because you’re a Class-A dickhead fuckwipe who decided that he was entitled to do what he wants, consequences be damned. You weren’t out looking for the OW? Funny how the higher power above just floated her down on a cloud, right?
yup and she fell right on his fucking lap, didn’t you know?
My XW’s line: “The chemistry became sexualized”. See, it was nothing she did. Hanging out in bars and drinking with strange men played no role.
LOL…they never know how it happened. Oh, you just suddenly happened to find yourself naked in a compromising position with the AP but you have absolutely no idea how you got from point “A” to point “B”? Oh, please!
What a strange little screed. What was the point of it? She wants the world to be aware of how wonderful her self-love is?
The food analogy annoys me tremendously. This line: “But the world is vast and delicious, and I want to try as many dishes as possible while I’m here” — implies that those of us who don’t cheat and lie are eating the same beige gruel day in and day out.
Hasn’t she heard of having a discriminating taste? I’m not shoving every damned dish that’s presented to me down my throat at the same time like the world is ending. I prefer to savor and enjoy what I have.
Bit I think like that too lilybart. That’s why I’m fat and will probably never have sex again!
“I’ve never felt particularly constrained by society’s ideas of what a relationship should be.”
Almost word for word the same sentence I found in my ex’s journal about his relationship with his married coworker.
And they’ve “never felt particularly constrained by” their partners’ understanding of what their relationship was either, I expect.
Golden Rule Downgrade Alert
Old Rule: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
New Rule: Expect others to treat you better than you treat them.
TH, you took the words right out of my mouth! “New Rule: expect others to treat you better than you treat them.” I just filed for divorce from my serial cheater who is appalled that I filed and am not divorcing him on his terms. I’m NC with him but this is the line that has been in my head the next time I have to see/speak to him and he whines about how I am the one making things ugly between us. I mean, hello, does he really believe his serial cheating and lying didn’t make thing ugly between us at all?? Geez!
Yes, my STBXH called the divorce petition “aggressive”, because, how dare I not just slink away and not request child and spousal support after giving up my career to support his and being SAHM for all these years.
I don’t know whether people like your cheater and others like him believe the things they say or not. What I know is that what they say is designed to manipulate the people in their lives and make our “reality” conform to the reality they prefer to see in their own heads. As long as the goal is manipulation, the question of whether in some dim corner they know they are screwed up, lying, and wastes of human space doesn’t matter. Normal people can’t reason with them, expect empathy or compassion or make contracts like marriage with them because they can’t do reciprocity.
My ex’s actual statement was “I don’t have to follow society’s rules. I can follow my own rules.”
I wonder what she would do, if she found out her boyfriend has been doing the EXACT same thing, throughout their whole relationship? I have a feeling she will be singing a different tune then…
One can only hope that he is the author of some clickbait article titled “9 Reasons I Cheat on my Clueless Girlfriend” and “10 Ways to avoid the ‘I Have Herpes’ Conversation’.”
Good one, Lily!
Why is there no like button on this site?!
WordPress won’t let me have one. 🙁
Tracy, I think the Disqus plugin will give you a thumbs up or down option, but be careful what you wish for, trolls love to bury comments with it
Hahahaha, now that would be priceless!!! 🙂
I didn’t read the whole thing because its the type of I’m-So-Highly-Evolved-Above-Everyone-Down-There crap. If she is so great, why make an “anonymous” post? Oh wait. She has “secret” relationships. That means she’s cheating.
My real question, then, is if she is okay with it, why not just have an open relationship?
Because it is cheating if one party expects monogamy while the other wants to spread around. The lying and secrecy makes someone a cheap bastard, not necessarily wanting multiple sexual partners. I’m also not down with people who jeopardize their partner’s health. Selfish, careless, and irresponsible.
Finally, what is up with the “King” [sic] and “Queen” [sic] bull crap? (BTW, they’re not proper nouns!) You can’t treat someone like a “king” when you are mistreating them.
(Sorry for any typos. I’m just tired and there has been a lot of stupid on the interwebs this week).
“I’m also not down with people who jeopardize their partner’s health.”
But..wait! A slick, hot, Argentinian photographer like Matias would never think of sleeping with anyone other than Ms. Fabulous, would he? Oh, wait…
Here is the passage that says it all for me: “It is true that I sleep with other men and my boyfriend is unaware of it. There is no getting around that, and I’m not afraid to say it (to myself, of course). I am not in denial about what I do, and I quite enjoy it when I think of it.”
“I quite enjoy it when I think about it.” That’s the deal, right there. It’s never just the sex with these disgusting freaks. It’s the power and control. It’s “I know something you don’t know.” It’s how having their secrets produces intense pleasure for them. I’m sure when she looks at her “boyfriend,” she smirks.
Exactly.
This.
I’m okay with her saying, “I have never believed in monogamy, because I don’t think that humans are built for it in any meaningful way. ” Okay, if polyamory is your thing, then that’s fine with me. It’s a big world, and I don’t really care what goes on among consenting adults.
But if the boyfriend doesn’t know about it, then it’s cheating.
Would she feel the same way if she said, “I have never believed in honesty, because I don’t believe that humans are built for it in any meaningful way.”
Possibly. She is, after all, a narcissist.
And that means she’s special
“I’m okay with her saying, “I have never believed in monogamy, because I don’t think that humans are built for it in any meaningful way. ” Okay, if polyamory is your thing, then that’s fine with me. It’s a big world, and I don’t really care what goes on among consenting adults.
But if the boyfriend doesn’t know about it, then it’s cheating. ”
EXACT-A-MUNDO, kb! It always amazes me how pompous cheaters are about their– (ahem!) “philosophy”– of monogamy, yet they fail to share that –(ahem!) “philosophy”– with their unsuspecting partner(s).
Cake-eating chicken-shit COWARDS!!
Sorry– I was pointing out a logic flaw, not actually asking “why”. The logic fallacy demonstrates her lack of emotional maturity. Of course its about cake. 🙂
She answered that:
“When I take a lover, I do it for myself. I find it empowering and exciting, and it makes me feel deeply alive. It’s a story that I have entirely to myself, a sun that rises and sets in my own mind. Part of the reason I seek affairs instead of an “open relationship” is because I profoundly enjoy the privacy and the intimate knowledge I share only with myself. I love myself in a way that is as visceral as the love I have for my partner, or a close friend. I want to be good and generous with myself, and indulge the desires I have, while indulging those of others. At the end of the day, I am deeply satisfied with the love story I have cultivated in me.”
She likes the satisfaction of “cake”. She likes knowing that she is in the power position. I know something that you don’t. I have control here and you are non the wiser. True narcissist.
I’m pretty sure that’s the way my cheating bastard saw it.
“My real question, then, is if she is okay with it, why not just have an open relationship?”
Because then she wouldn’t be one-up in the relationship. She wouldn’t be in control. She’d have to communicate, compromise, have insight into herself and empathy for others. She isn’t capable of that.
Because then she’d have to share her marvelous true love with someone else….maybe lots of someone elses…She’s the only one special enough to have him.
Someone is bound to recognize who she is by her tone and clue him in, don’t you think? Gads, I hope so.
So, she writes this article extolling serial cheating so the masses will realize what they are missing and, perhaps, partake.
But , she does not disclose this to her true love, so he is left missing out.
If it so great and she cares so much for her boyfriend , why not educate him so his life can be filled with comparable enjoyment.
Wouldn’t it seem natural and logical to want as much for your true love?
This is the same with a cheaters. It is as if they feel we betrayed folks A’ed not worthy or would not appreciate variety like they do.
Hell, I know I was more physically attractive than both my Xws and had a lot of overtures from women over the years. And,seeing my XW without her clothes on was no big deal, just like I expect seeing me naked was no big deal for her.
But, despite the sameness eI was not out looking to
Upgrade like she was.
You nailed it Lyn.
Precisely.
Navel-gazing airhead.
“I believe that he is the happiest coupled man he knows, and it is my pleasure to know that he wants for nothing.”
W T F
Of course he’s happy…right now. But once he finds out? He won’t be happy and we can only hope he’ll uncouple himself from her asap. He wants for nothin? Because he doesn’t know how dishonest she is. Will read the whole article later. I’m sure I will be suitably horrified.
Uh NO he’s not happy. She spends a great deal of time invested in propping her wonderful-ness up. There really isn’t a relationship at home. He probably doesn’t get good sex, his gut is probably beginning to nag at him, he’s married or in a long term relationship but…hmmmm, something is missing. And he can’t quite figure out why he is not having any fun. Because isn’t she describing my ex? I know when you date people like this you feel the “yuck factor.” When you are married to this, times that by 1000. I only hope this man discovers the truth and bails. Then he will get his happy ending. A toast to us Chumps on a beautiful summer day!
Every day a new surprise. You absolutely cannot make this stuff up.
I also believe this concept of “Everyone does it. It’s really no big deal, etc. etc.” has become the prevailing wisdom on the subject. CL, thank you for changing the narrative. You – we – are bucking pop culture, which is like trying to repair a dam about to burst with scotch tape and Elmer’s glue. But it’s a worthy cause.
A psychologist told me this morning that “this sort of thing is quite common.” As if I didn’t know that. As if it matters.
WOW! Just because everyone is doing it does not make it right. I say this to my kids all the time. At 4, 6 and 8 yrs old they know this sentence by rote.
What sort of thing is quite common, ANR?
Affairs. She also told me she didn’t think my wife was a bad person and that she would probably like her if she met her.
“(S)he’s not a bad person” is often said about people who are bad. But there is also the supposed virtue of not being judgmental.
Well, good judgment will often reinforce the rational fact that bad people are those who do bad things. Watch for those. Stay away from “not a bad person”s. Your life will be so much better.
Oh! And stay away from those who like to say, “(S)he’s not a bad person.” They lack judgment. Bad things happen to people who lack good judgment.
Good lord. Stay away from people who boast that they would probably like a bad person if they met them.
ANR, my counselor was disgusted with my ex. Every time I came for my sessions (IC), she would ask me the status of my divorce proceedings. She could not wait for my divorce to be finalized.
Yeah, my therapist almost never makes overt judgments out loud, but the other day we were talking about Jackass and she sequed into a comment about how she thinks there are lots of bad people out there. 🙂
And ANR–no one is ever ready for divorce. It’s like surgery. Sometimes you have to do something very painful to save yourself.
My therapist tried this with me, but I was in the early stages and wasn’t yet ready to listen to people tell me how awful my then-stbx was. He did help me to focus on my own needs and complete my degree, however.
ANR, I had a family therapist that sounds like your individual one.
When I told her that my son was struggling coming at the late hour we were coming, she said “he seems fine when he gets here” (she had not been with me for an hour in transit and prior when he begged me not to take him). Then when I told her I was concerned that he was driving with his father who claims he is not drinking anymore with this background:
From the seven years we were together I have never known him to stay sober and had been a passenger in his car along with my son when he was either drunk or hung over—I did not drive early in the relationship because I did not learn yet—I come from public transit culture. Ex would also look at me with disgust whenever I asked him if he was okay, or if I told him he looked out of it. When he would nearly hit cars I would jump and he would take his hands off the wheel, terrifying me and saying “What!? What did I do?” (His mantra). He used his depression to explain his demeanor when he was hung over. When I asked him about the alcohol I smelled he would go into a rage. I lived in terror.
So when I told her I was concerned, she looked at me like I was nuts and said in a very calm calm voice “Did something happen to make you feel this way?” when I told her he had a car accident in front of my kid’s school with my kid in the car, she looked like I was making the whole thing up. (my kid told me then eventually my ex and then a neighbor whose kid goes to the same school told me he saw the fender bender–the police came when everyone was getting dismissed.)
I think some therapists interpret all upset, anger or fear as that the person coming to them is crazy. They really don’t know what it is like to be tied to a sociopath or addict and how best to help you get unattached or deal with actual chaos not generated by you.
ANR, I agree with Datamwuf, it sounds like your therapist is one lousy therapist. If she is trying to convince you that your experiences are not what you experience them to be—I would find another.
Has she helped you at all?
This one told me — first session, that she thought I wasn’t ready for divorce.
I am not sure I would say I felt “ready” for my divorce either. I didn’t want it, but being married to a husband that had a girlfriend was absolute hell. I started the process and kept taking steps forward, and my heart and mind caught up over time. And there was no chance of reconcilation in our situation, since he had no interest in staying married, so that certainly helped me knwo I had no other option. I knew I could only move my vomiting/crying self forward one step at a time until I got to the other side.
ANR, I went through a few lousy therapists, good ones are hard to find. I don’t mean ones that agree with everything you say either. But for a therapist to tell you on your first visit you are not ready for divorce and on your second that your spouse is not bad and she thinks she would like her? That’s pretty fucked up. A good one would not be voicing opinions like that in the first two sessions. Try again, you will find a good one.
It is strange — especially because dday was well over a year ago.
I think that’s a very strange thing to say.
I can imagine asking someone who sounded conflicted if they wanted a divorce, but telling them they’re not ready sounds off.
I hope you weren’t paying for her advice/wisdom….
Mostly covered by insurance, but I was paying some.
Yeah … only my second session, Didn’t get a great sense of what she was like the first one as it was mostly me telling my story. She tells I have a right to be angry, that the the treatment sounds abusive and then …. I was taken aback. I’m seeing another counsellor for a specific issue from the past, and I can’t imagine her saying that.
Are you serious? I thought it was some random psychologist you knew and even then I thought it was nuts. This is someone you are SEEING? I hope it was the last time you saw her. (You can tell her [by PHONE or EMAIL!]: “Oh, it’s quite common for people to dump lousy psychologists. It happens all the time.”)
Eww…I’d be looking for a new counselor. Almost sounds like she is condoning the affair because “this sort of thing is quite common”.
My responses to this psychotic woman’s self-involved drivel:
1. Please don’t have children. Please. You can’t love anyone other than yourself. Don’t bring children into that sort of relationship. Having children requires a degree of sacrifice and selflessness. You would never, ever be able to tap into those qualities, and any children you might have would surely be very screwed up and neglected. Do the world a favor, and don’t bring any more people into the world like you.
2. I would LOVE to know how this wacko would feel if she found out that her boyfriend was cheating on her. This whole little fantasy world of hers balances precariously on the notion that she’s getting all kinds of exotic tail on the side while her faithful, loving boyfriend is waiting patiently and lovingly for her at home and views her as the sun and the moon. How exciting would this all be if the cheating went both ways? Oh, she’d hate that– she doesn’t want an “open relationship.”
3. I wish that someone knew who this was and would tell her boyfriend. He deserves the truth of who the wingnut is that he’s with before he has kids with her and then will be stuck dealing with her until the children are adults.
We seriously need a PSA on television like the ones they used to have about drugs when I was a kid. People have no friggin’ clue how destructive affairs are, and I’m tired of seeing them romanticized or shrugged off as if they are no big deal. They destroy families. They often leave one partner struggling financially. They hurt children. They bring along with them STDs; bunny boiler APs; and ugly, protracted courtroom battles. There is nothing that is the least bit romantic about them; in the end, they are as ugly as many of the cheaters are.
Well said Moving On. I really think there should be more media coverage about how awful and disgusting the cheaters are. They should really be shed in a bad dark light and definitely not glorified by anyone. I would bet any money that the deceptive whore that wrote the article would be horrified if she were to find out that her lovely devoted boyfriend cheated on her as well. It would take all the fun out of her little one sided world. I hope he does find out she’s a cheater and kicks her to the cheater curb where all of those slimy creatures belong.
A PSA is a brilliant idea. Even if it had no effect on the cheater, it would help the morally impaired understand that fidelity MATTERS and is seriously harmful. It might help to set a standard code of conduct that is sadly lacking.
When I found out that my fucktard cheating ex had cheated on me with the first OW (the married ho-worker) he tried to tell me “every men does it!” like it’s the norm, however, when I said “well if that’s good for you, it should be good for me too then” his face changed and he replied “if you ever cheat on me we are done!” let’s see, it was okay for him to cheat on me and when the truth came out (after so much gaslighting) he told me that every men does it, it’s not a big deal and I was making a such a big deal out of it, YET he couldn’t handle the idea of me fucking someone else and expected complete honesty and faithfulness from me… Double standard’s ?? Asshole!!
PS: I found out later that he had cheated on his ex-wife throughout their marriage, never been faithful to any woman he has ever been with, but when his ex-wife cheated on him, he couldn’t handle it and they got divorced. Poor poor fucking sausage! I am so glad I dumped his worthless ass and didn’t end up with some incurable STD!
They love those asymmetrical relationships, with the power and control all on one side. I’m sure dumping that idiot was a true “narcissistic injury.”
Absolutely LovedaJackass! specially it turns out that I am the FIRST and ONLY woman who dumped him in his whole life, oh yes, that hurt his narcissistic ass so badly, I hear he is still having a very hard time sitting on it! 😉
barf-a-roni. She needs to get a room, for herself and her ego. Yuck, just, self-justifying, gaslighting, mindfuckery, yuckery.
What a tidal swamp of a person. In the smelliest sort of way.
“The tide comes in, with a new lover, and goes out, leaving me smelling like the putrid fish and vegetation that passes for my brain. Then, when the tide comes in, I have a whole new experience. The inland lake that is my boyfriend knows nothing of my tidal life. I am a mermaid, and treat him like Poseidon, so he is happy, and knows nothing of my squalid, muddy, rotting frolics.”
That ^
Lol, yes THAT! Beauty on the inside. My close male friend told me he’d sleep with anybody given the opportunity but that sex with someone cheating on a spouse has a whole other flavor. (He is single and doesn’t knowingly sleep with married women).
Well the Decree Nisi was announced today so another ‘Princess of Pleasure’ aka OW aka The Get Out of Jail Card has been on my mind.
Here’s what STBX told me she’d told him (because STBXs do this kind of ‘honesty’)
She just loves sex
She wants to have her cake and eat it – and can compartmentalize her life
She was reading The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities (which obviously includes having sex with your colleague’s husband)
Here’s the link in case you want to feel a bit more nauseous
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ethical-Slut-Infinite-Possibilities/dp/1890159018
She didn’t want to break up her Yummy Mummy family of two young boys (courtesy of IVF with her Chump). She also told me this when I confronted her on DDay. Of course, only now do I see I should have said ‘But it’s OK to break up my marriage?’- thankfully no children.
I guess I should have been more astute about her at work questions about my husband- not least her ‘How long were you married for?’ Er… ‘We’re still married’ I replied. And her constant, tedious ‘liking’ of all STBX’s FB posts-oh, they were very ‘online’ as I found out after seeing their FB messaging.
Of course I was spackling- we were living apart after I’d kicked him out for alcoholism, abuse and stealing money from me to pay for prostitutes. Oh and he never had any money or paid bills. But hey, he was a very creative, artistic Mr Sparkles. And I was in faux reconciliation aka Chumpdom- and protecting him. I know, when you write this stuff down-you go WHAT? You were still with him?
But I know you understand and as I said- I have the Decree Nisi ( Thanks Chump Lady)- and it’s only a little while now before the Absolute aka the OUT of jail card. Thanks OW.
I would say the same thing. Much as I despise the married OW in my situation, finding out about her made me cut myself lose from Jackass, who was busy both discarding me and keeping me tethered as a future kibble supply.
I would translate that as she married a guy to be a stable parent and help her raise her kids, but she’s not that into him. She wants other guys just for fun.
I have no idea why your ex told you what she said. Perhaps he thought you wouldn’t mind if he slept with someone so long as she didn’t really like him or want to marry him?
I hate the whole “ethical slut” idea – I think the argument is that it’s not your responsibility if you sleep with a cheater, it’s up to him or her to handle that side of their life. It’s got to be the dumbest use of non-logic to prove that you don’t have to care about other human beings.
She’s a cold-hearted jerk who doesn’t even know how cold she is.
On the other hand, you are better off without an abusive alcoholic who steals your money. There’s a reason the ice-slut prefers her husband.
Wow. WTF is all I was saying while reading. That’s great, she thinks people are food. Dehumanization 101: turn people into food that just gets thrown away when there’s leftovers, only keeps for a week in the fridge. My 3 year old just isn’t looking as fresh as she was when she was born. I think she’s gone stale. I’ll just go throw her out the window on that street corner b/c hey, I always come back for her, right?
“It is true that I sleep with other men and my boyfriend is unaware of it. There is no getting around that, and I’m not afraid to say it (to myself, of course).” AKA I’m a lying SOB that’s SCARED to tell the truth b/c the moment I do I’ll get screwed over. You’re scared for a reason lady.
“I want to be good and generous with myself, and indulge the desires I have, while indulging those of others.” Bull shit. You don’t have boundaries or any idea what a healthy boundary actually is. You can’t love yourself, or anyone else for that matter, without setting boundaries.
“I am a giving and thoughtful partner, and an eager lover, and am as concerned with his needs and desires as I am with my own.” Excuse me while I go throw up. Uh no. Not a chance in hell lady. If you really valued and cared for him you’d put HIS needs for HONESTY and no STDS up at the top.
“I will have children, and meet new people, and learn things I did not know yesterday. And I intend to do all of it while being happy, fulfilled, and wonderfully free of judgment.” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yes. Let’s see how “wonderfully free of judgement” you are when I call CPS on you when you do have kids.
Hey CL ,
Remember a few months back , you had a post about a “reformed cheater” who now is dispensing marital advise , and stating cheating is WRONG… WRONG .. WRONG .. WRONG ?
He has stopped his blog, Affair Advice, because he is tired of having to relive his mistake ( 3 yr affair)
He and his wife are happier than ever ! and they are moving on with their lives. He never even thinks about his former AP. He has no feelings for her, not even disdain.
He has left his last post up , but will not read, or reply.
So I suppose a “desperate housewife” and her cheater husband have given birth to the allusive, precious, rare Unicorn !
He writes:
“Because I dared to indicate that the vast majority affairs weren’t about men being pigs, or women for that matter, (although some are), or even sex for that matter, but instead were usually a symptom of something really gone wrong in the relationship. That while a poor relationship is not an excuse for an affair (and again, there is no excuse), it was usually the CAUSE.”
It looks like the whole blog is about he isn’t that bad of a guy and how his wife helped to cause the affair. I wonder how his wife is doing.
According to him…. she thinks HE is being too hard on himself.
Harder on himself than she is, or ever could be. (PUKE)
He has stated that their marriage was too boring to stay…. too safe to leave.
She may decide that she can’t do any better, I think they are older “empty nesters”.
She may be staying for the money.
I know a woman that is doing just that.
Too close to retirement to divorce.
I guess.
Whatevar !
I’m feeling cranky. I bet he took it down because he’s cheating again, or his wife is leaving.
Of course.
That guy was a total assclapper. He always said the affair was completely his fault, then backed it up by listing all the ways his wife drove him to it. N. P. D.
“I love myself in a way that is as visceral as the love I have for my partner, or a close friend. I want to be good and generous with myself, and indulge the desires I have, while indulging those of others. At the end of the day, I am deeply satisfied with the love story I have cultivated in me.”
Every word of that puke made me think of my ex, but this particular quote really stood out. He says similar — but less poetic — narcissistic drivel frequently, such as his “I love myself just the way I am and would never want to change.”
I feel so, so sorry for any future children that disordered woman might have.
“I can know someone’s body without wanting to know them as a person”
This here is what stood out to me.
I never understood the point of an act of intimacy without acknowledging there was another person at the end of your genitals. Fucking someone without caring whether or not they exist is rather masturbatory, you’re just using someone else’s body to accomplish it.
She may be a sex addict. Not that I am excusing her actions – she’s a special kind of freak who scares the hell out of me.
I think this woman is a train wreck. It’s horrid – but I cannot look away. Only a cheater could read this article and think that it makes any kind of sense.
I read recently that our guts get a “sick sensation ” when we meet a Cluster B type person and that we need to actively listen to that initial response.
My gut Hurt reading that article – what a cluster fuck she is!!!
Like she can eat a cheeseburger without wanting to know the cow.
So basically she just sees other people as a piece of ass. If she wants an ass she can go find a petting zoo for crying out loud. She can even feed one corn with her hand too!
Even as a man, I’ve never gotten that.
If I just wanted a “release”, well, I can take care of that myself.
I’m a cheap date, guaranteed to put out, I know I’m clean and I’ll even make me breakfast in the morning… 😉
Honestly, anyone who can’t take care of their own needs, well, I feel sorry for them! 😉
Yep. She could get a BOB, and with no risk of STDs!
“a sun that rises and sets in my own mind”
For the Love of Puppies (in the words of Ned Flanders) this woman is unbelievable. Wouldn’t you love to have a one-on-one conversation with her? Her word salad mastery is equal to her inflated self image.
It always terrifies me when I realize people like this walk among us.
True vampires.
I’m thinking that is an acute and accurate description of how a narcissist sees the word, as a “sun that rises and sets in my own mind.” So if you wonder whether these people can actually “love,” this pretty much makes it clear that, no, they can’t. They are trapped in their own minds.
A legend in their own minds. Delusional thinking at its finest! This is a skein of fuckedupedness that no one could unravel. They do not have the capacity to love. They all think like this. And someone will read this crazy woman’s words & recognize her like the Unabomber’s family did.
Okay, first off let me just say…I LOVE THIS BLOG. Because if provides me with a community of like-minded people who can see the absurdity in such things as these. I could never have read that article on my own (you see, I was too chicken to even read it!) because I would have spiraled into a depression and lost faith in all humanity. But reading the excerpts you posted, along with your responses is so enjoyable. It makes me laugh out-loud and pleases me that you express the same sort of outrage that I am feeling when I read her words. Thank you Chump Lady for all that you do!
Okay, I think this is the right topic to share the conversation I had with my wife when she finally came clean. I need to make it clear that Mona and I were married for 9 years this July and had been together for 11 years. Mona is a school teacher. We are from Michigan. There are no teacher jobs available in Michigan so she moved to Florida to accept a job there. I stayed here in Michigan with our house and my business. We would see each other as often as we could which was usually her breaks for christmas, easter, ect. After she left here in the summer of 2012 she left her email open and I discovered Marty at that time. For two years she downplayed it as just friends. Only went out a couple times for dinner and movie. I always had a bad feeling in my stomach that it was something more. She told me it ended in fall 2012 when I asked her to end it. This conversation is from May 2014. She told me he had died and I think that is why she finally came clean. But it turns out that he didn’t die. He is still alive. I don’t know if she made it up so I would stop worrying about him or if he lied to her to get away from her because his wife was catching on. I don’t know. But he is not dead so don’t worry about that. We talked 3 times a week on yahoo messenger. So here is that conversation. I copied and pasted from the history. I feel that I want to share this and see what some of you take on it. I hope it doesn’t make anyone uncomfortable.
Thank you,
Fred
see conversation below
ramona_m2000: Fred I am ready to tell you about Marty
fdarn77: okay
ramona_m2000: Marty and I were together for 2.5 years
ramona_m2000: yes we were intimate, we did a lot of things together
ramona_m2000: the kids all knew him and liked him
ramona_m2000: he knew all about you
ramona_m2000: but also knew that I was very unhappy with you and that is why I could freely be with him
fdarn77: i want to hear your whole story before i respond
ramona_m2000: it started off innocent but built
ramona_m2000: we would do many things together
ramona_m2000: but when he got sick, he told me that he did not want me to see him like that and made me leave
fdarn77: when was that?
ramona_m2000: in october
ramona_m2000: the last time I actually talked to him was on my birthday
fdarn77: so you mean you were with him until october when you first moved to that area?
ramona_m2000: and then it was just a phone call telling me happy birthday
ramona_m2000: yes, he picked out the house and helped me move into it
fdarn77: i tought so
ramona_m2000: 4 days later he was diagnosed with cancer
fdarn77: okay
fdarn77: i want you to finish before i say anything
ramona_m2000: there is nothing else to say
fdarn77: okay. allow me to ask a few basic questions
ramona_m2000: what
fdarn77: first of all did you eve stay in his house and him in your house?
ramona_m2000: yes
ramona_m2000: yes
fdarn77: was he every in your house when you and I would be talking?
ramona_m2000: no
fdarn77: okay. you make it sound like you had a pretty serious relationship.. so.. how did you explain coming home every couple months to be with me ?
fdarn77: did you lie to him too?
ramona_m2000: no, he knew it
fdarn77: so…what you are saying is. you would be having sex with marty then you would come here for a week and have sex with me then go back to fl and have sex with marty again. am I correct?
fdarn77: and he was okay with that?
ramona_m2000: no, he was not but he also was not going to push me to make a decision
ramona_m2000: he knew where my heart was and it was with him
fdarn77: how do you feel about this. knowing you were two timig both of us?
ramona_m2000: say what ever you want to say Fred
fdarn77: i am not fighting i just mean how do you feel. do you feel about it
fdarn77: do you realize that I knew this all along and I tried really hard to get you to admit it. why wouldn’t you?
ramona_m2000: because it was my relationship with Marty and it did not concern you was the thought in my head
ramona_m2000: but even now I dont want to talk about it
ramona_m2000: so I am done for the evening
fdarn77: but why didn’t file for divorce 2 years ago?
fdarn77: could it be because you needed me to be your safety net for when your relationship with marty failed?
fdarn77: see this is the biggest problem i have with this. you played me for a fool and insulted me in the worst possible way and you actually sit there and act like the victim and say its none of my business and convince yourself that you did nothing wrong
fdarn77: i would like to know what you say to that
fdarn77: i would like you to reply and then i have one last thing to say to you
ramona_m2000: I know that I am not the victim, you are
ramona_m2000: I know that your probably right, I used you as a safety net
ramona_m2000: it was not right and I told you that I will file for the divorce and let you move on
fdarn77: i ll be honest with you on that reply I do not thing you sound at all remorseful or have a shred of empathy.
fdarn77: but i ll be honest about something else. I am VERY disappointed in you for what you did and how you allowed it to drag on for so long
ramona_m2000: ok
fdarn77: Mona the best advice i can give you iso to please get professional help because you are setting yourself up for a life time of hard ship that could be treated
fdarn77: Now when can I expect the divorce papers?
ramona_m2000: within the next couple of weeks
fdarn77: i ll look forward to it. please get help. goodbye
Fred, I think you are right that the reason cheaters don’t file for divorce is not only because of financial reasons, but because emotionally and psychologically they want you there as a back-up option. That allows them to take the risks of having the affair and I think adds to the thrill.
When I discovered the affair, my XH asked me to stay with him because he thought the OW might eventually break up with him (she wanted to marry a young, single rich guy), but if she wanted to marry him, he would. When I asked him point-blank if he wanted me as to act as his back-up option, he replied, “Yes.”
blue, your XH is despicable swine! just like all the cheaters!
Yes, he seemed to think that it was okay to treat me as a back-up option or that it was even like some sort of compliment, like he was telling me: See? You’re still in the running! I haven’t completely rejected you and still consider you good enough for second place. There’s still hope that I will come back to you, so don’t despair.
“Fred, I think you are right that the reason cheaters don’t file for divorce is not only because of financial reasons, but because emotionally and psychologically they want you there as a back-up option.”
I agree 100% blue. When I found about about STBX’s affair, I flat-out asked him if he wanted a divorce. He said yes, he wanted to be with the OW. I filed about 2 weeks after that conversation. When he found out, he was honest-to-goodness shocked as shit. I asked him why since it was what he wanted, and he did not have an answer. The shock in his voice was epic.
When I told my STBX that I knew of the affair, his reaction was, “And your point is?”
I told him that I knew he was unhappy in the marriage, yadda, yadda, yadda, and that I was going to leave so I wouldn’t be in the way of their Twu Wuv. Then I moved into the spare room, telling him that I knew we were two adults. All he said was, “We can work out the details later.” Okay, so I have that phone into the lawyer now, and expect to get an appointment for us both very early in the week, after which I plan to leave town for a few days. 😛
I think that it will be at that point, when we get the paperwork rolling and he understands just how expensive it’s going to be, that he’ll be shell-shocked.
Oh by the way, I was sending her money every week because she was struggling all the while this was going on. After this conversation I was able to ask her how often did she see Marty since for the first two years of their affair he lived almost 3 hours north of her. Get this. She said he would drive down saturday evening and spend the night with her than head home sunday morning. They would do this about every other weekend so she said. I wish I had thought to ask “Did he leave money on the dresser when he left?”
File yourself. Do it. She won’t, because it’s boring and dull and inconvenient and it will mean she REALLY is on her own and that safety net is… gone…
She reckons you’re bluffing, I would bet next week’s housekeeping on it. So file. Get everything you can and leave her to her cancer-suffering lover. Let her have her ”real love”. It will be less Dying Young and more… revolting when she actually has to live with someone who is ill, who is being treated, likely with chemo and needs extensive medical care… and who may possibly not have a good prognosis. I would pay money to be a fly on the wall in that house about 3 months into the romance.
I find it pathetic that she initiates the conversation but when you press for details is like ‘I don’t want to talk about it’. Jesus Christ the immaturity is outstanding.
And no, you don’t ‘let her have everything’ – she wants something, she fights for it.
She is so immature. I am actually feeling angry about it this morning. That “I am done talking” shit pisses me off so much. Its like I have no right to this info.
Fred, when she says “I am done talking” its a power trip. She knows the whole story and you don’t and in her fucked up mind she has power/control over you, you not knowing everything, ——–don’t ask, let it go,——- because you will never get the whole story/truth and if you keep asking, in her mind it shows to her that you still care and they get a sick pleasure out of it. Nothing says “fuck off!” better than staying NC, so stay NC.
I agree NC is the only card I have to play to keep my sanity. I think I am on day 23 now. I am starting to lose count. Today I have to admit I am fighting off little urges to contact her just to express the anger I am feeling at the moment. Don’t worry I won’t. I remind myself that is what she wants in order to regain control over me.
Fred, you’ve got all the detail you need now to have made your decision to end things. No sense in engaging any more, there will never be an answer to ‘why’.
I had a narc string me along, taunt me, and break my heart. I still get pangs and the urge to contact him but I haven’t and won’t. Narcs will keep coming back randomly for kibbles or to test the waters. Even your negative reaction is kibbles for them, so don’t give it out. My narc kept texting me and asking me to visit him (requiring a two hour drive) — silly arrogant bugger, no offer to visit ME thank god — and then finally after a gap of 18 months, he texted “shall I take you off my phone list?”. I happened to be with a new BF at that moment, and I just deleted the message and smiled and ordered a drink. Peace at last.
Of course you still feel residual love for Mona that you thought was reciprocated. If I loved someone then discovered their deception, my love would quickly fade to MEH. And you feel anger you’d like to express. That anger will have no effect on her except to fill her kibble bowl.
I tried writing long, thought-out emails, trying to get my narc to repent just a little, even apologize. Useless, he replied with several of the “stupid shit cheaters say” classics. Until we accept that these are truly ill individuals who will go on victimizing normal people forever, we will not be at peace. Did you not suspect this was possible when you became partner #3?
I appreciate that. I think you are absolutely right.
I also wrote so many long thought out letters rationalizing with logic only to get a vague meaningless response. She just can’t seem to grasp the gravity of pain her actions and behavior cause.
I understand that is because she is so disordered and nothing I say or do is going to get through to her.
That is exactly how I keep myself from contacting her. I remind myself that is what she wants. Whether I lash out in anger or send loving words, all it does is gives her control over me.
She can choose to ignore me which she knows infuriates me. Or she can choose to respond in a vague meaningless way that will confuse me. Or she will respond in a way I would like to hear simply to reel me back in only to drop me on my head later.
Its a no win. If I contact her for any reason I become weaker. But yes I am struggling with it still but it is getting so much easier. So days I want to say something angry. Other days I want to apologize for angry things I already said.
I had a dream this morning that I did contact her in a loving way and I was angry at myself for doing it. Then I woke up and I was so relieved it was just a dream. I don’t have to start over with no contact. On day 24 now.
I’ve been there, done that and bought the shirt Fred. When I first went NC with my cheating ex, in that first 2 months or so, I wanted so badly to text/email and tell him what a disgusting, low life scum, piece of shit that he really is and express my anger and let him have it, but I didn’t, and looking back I am glad I didn’t, because he would’ve sat there thinking that I must still care about him (which I didn’t and don’t ) and he still has some kind of power over me. The more time passes, the better it gets with NC, believe me when I say this even though it may not feel like that now and once the divorce is final it will get even better, just count your blessings you didn’t have a child with her. I completely do understand wanting to express anger, because for 2 years she denied what you knew in your heart, mine did that to me blatantly for 3 years, now that’s the most anger comes from, them denying the truth for so long, but eventually you will reach a place that you will be so glad its over and she is no longer in your life. I’ve been in complete NC close to a year now and I am so grateful every day that he is no longer in my life and my only/biggest regret is not dumping his ass right away then cutting him out of my life completely. I guess its better late than never. Hang in there Fred, it will get better and yes stay NC.
Holy crap, Fred! How on earth you could remain that calm and civil through that exchange is beyond me.
I lost it the next morning. I wasn’t civil at all once it sunk in.
I love how you stood your ground. “This is the biggest problem i have with this. you played me for a fool and insulted me in the worst possible way and you actually sit there and act like the victim and say its none of my business and convince yourself that you did nothing wrong. i would like to know what you say to that. I would like you to reply and then i have one last thing to say to you.”
Even when she agreed to the divorce, it was all about her; she would “let you move on.” The most empowering thing about reading on the blog for me was figuring out I had been dealing with a narcissist and that I wasn’t alone. Now you are truly in a position to move on with someone who doesn’t require spackling.
You can’t fix or save this, Fred. Nothing cures a cheater. That shit only happens in movies. You will have a better life but it will only happen if you let her go. Her cheating was not because of anything YOU did. And nothing she did will make sense. If she had been honest she would have addressed issues, turning towards another pretty much ruins the dialogue. I suspect you are in early days and hurting. My humble advice, Go do things you love. Bike on the beach. Take a ceramics class. It helps. 🙂
Fred, you’re in for a roller-coaster ride. Hang on, you can make it to the other side. Your story sounds a lot like mine, except mine was fortunately not as drawn out. Don’t count on her showing you any sympathy towards you in resolving the divorce. My wife was incredibly sweet for six years and then tried to take me to the cleaners. (She wound up paying more than she would have had she simply gone through mediation and given me the modest, short-term alimony we originally agreed on, and throwing a tantrum at her lawyer when the judge didn’t rule her way.) Anyway, get an attorney and make sure s/he is looking out for your interests in this. It looks like adultery can affect alimony in your state, so maybe you can use that as leverage to get an outcome that’s more in your interests.
Don’t wait for her to file. Do it yourself.
I know you are right. but my thinking was she fucked up she should pay for it. its already been filed though.
I let my ex do all the divorce stuff because like you, I thought he should have to do the dirty work and pay for it too. He initiated it all but toward the end let all his batshit crazy hang out over furniture from an Swedish big box store I will not mention by name he initially agreed to give to me and kept changing his mind every other week.
I finally had my attorney tell him to get his shit together or I would take him to court and subpoena his mistress for a deposition. I just let him keep the furniture. I could not justify staying married to him a moment longer to keep objects made out of particleboard.
She is deliberately dragging it out. Do not let her. The fact is, even if she had to do all the proceedings and pay, the chump always gets left with the shit end of the stick.
BTW, I always want to refer to you as Right Said Fred.
I love this blog. It is so therapeutic to guffaw like I do so often when I read all the snarky comments everyone comes up with.
” I just let him keep the furniture. I could not justify staying married to him a moment longer to keep objects made out of particleboard. ”
LOL!!!
I was referring to the particle board comment. 🙂
Sorry for the typo. I know proper grammar but unable to execute it at the proper occasions, like public forums.
About the grammar. I keep posting apologies for my typos too. I just get so emotional when typing these things that I am not paying attention until i submit it. I guess we should be able to get away with that.
You are right about that risk of letting her handle all the proceedings. However I decided that I am not going to fight for anything. She can have all the furniture I bought for her. She can keep the pets, There won’t be a custody fight. We don’t have kids between us. The kids she mentioned are my step kids. Even though I helped raise them for the last 11 years they are not mine so I have no fight there.
So I am just going to let her have everything and wash my hands of her and she gets stuck with the legal bill. She filed on June 30th. She did not get an attorney and went to the court house and did it herself. I understand it is about 500.00 to do that in Florida and she just got fired again in June so she is broke.
She will get stuck with the bill for the divorce proceedings. All I am going to do is check the boxes and mail the papers back.
I am on day 22 of No Contact and I feel pretty good. I still have moments every day when I feel I have been punched in the stomach but they don’t last as long as they did.
Mona is a mess and I was 3rd husband. I ignored a lot of red flags that I won’t ignore again with someone else. I guess I should be thankful that I learned this lesson while I am young enough to start over. I am 37.
As for Mona, she will repeat this pattern with someone else. She will likely not find another good job as she has been fired twice a teacher in less than a year. I think everything is going to go down hill for her from here on. But I will be fine.
Fred,
I am not sure how all this works state to state, so it may not be an issue. If she lost her job, can she try to get you to continue paying support or alimony? You are the partner with the income. Stranger things have happened. Just saying don’t get blindsided.
So sorry, Fred.
***I am replying to echo here because we can’t reply to 3rd stringers on the thread
You are exactly right Echo. She got fired because of her disorder. She is a borderline. We just recently came to realize that. As a teacher she always struggled. She was always getting in trouble with parents and administration because she is a such a push over in the classroom. Her classes are always the rowdy ones where everyone misbehaves because they don’t respect the teacher. My understanding is both of the last two times she was fired was because of poor classroom control. That is an example of someone who doesn’t have boundaries. People with out boundaries don’t know how to respect other people’s boundaries.
My wife was fired (or “laid off”) twice in a year, too.
Holy mackerel! What in the world did she do to get fired twice in one year? None of my business, but that’s astounding. Speaks to her disorder too. Hang in there Fred.
You can file and still make her pay for it. You will have to put up a retainer fee for your lawyer, but can ask for your legal fees to be paid back to you by your stbx in the settlement. That’s what I did.
I should had added that she moved to florida in august 2011.
This conversation was in May 2014 and you can see she says she will file for divorce. But she didn’t until july 2014.
I’m sorry you went through that. It stinks. Saying that her relationship with Marty had nothing to do with you…amazing. Interesting how cheaters think. My ex also told my son his married coworker had nothing to do with leaving me. He promptly moved into her parent’s basement, now he runs around with her family (including her husband) and is involved with her kids. As I read in his journal, he’s “planting seeds” to break up her family. So twisted.
They are such damaged people. It is so clear that they just don’t get it. They have nothing good to offer the world.
Seriously….she wants to be taken seriously, which is hilarious in itself.
The article should be followed by an audience laugh track. This is Shakespeare in homage to dumb and dumber.
Translation…..I inhale fabreeze…and my toilet is a throne.
This post pretty much describes the flavor of crazy I was eating a year and a half ago. Then I decided I am not a fan of leftovers and threw him out!
Thanks again CL in reminding me how much I like eating a full, fresh, healthy meal with desert every now and then! : )
As soon as I stop laughing hysterically, I will comment more, than lmao, and were her initials AWL, by any chance? XD
If her chump boyfriend and some of her myriad of lovers knew she was lying to them she would probably be loving herself alone. That’s why she lies.
I can see the D-day scene. “Oh babe, you were unaware of my other lovers. Was I supposed to tell you? You never asked because you were so happy. If my having other lovers made you feel bad, I apologize but that was not my intension.”
I would rather be a rock than this individual. She should not have kids.
I think the draw for readers to this crap is the porn nature of her whole drivel. Yes yes we can imagine you in orgasmic throws and then staggering away silently because communicating is not what you do.
Oh your orgasims are so mighty and then you run off and lie to your boyfriend about your whereabouts. That makes for an extra special orgasm doesn’t it? What a dead person she is.
I like my orgasms honest. I don’t feel good in my body when I am hurting someone else with my actions.
You must be made of pussy so you really don’t care much. No empathy for others for you. Next mind blowing orgasm. oh that was great now let me get on the phone and lie to my bf.
How much rest do you need in between?
Isn’t it interestong how she just has amazing sex ALL the time. I think she is leaving out a few mugs she would rather not discuss. She’s just not telling us about the sex that is not all that satisfying, oh I just won’t call him again. Let’s focus on the Argentinian who speaks limited English so we can’t really talk to each other. No questions, no talking, so much better that way.
It’s like stealing someone’s wallet so you can be good to yourself and buy yourself a sex toy. It’s being good to yourself dont you see. It’s not stealing because the person does not realize it. If the tree falls and no one is there does it really fall? If you fuck someone and lie about it to your boyfriend or keep having him believe you are monogomous and he is “unaware” is it lying? Of course not! He did not see the tree and plus it’s my self love.
I am so glad that mind fuck is made clear. Because that’s all this sad excuse for a human being understands. Mindfuck.
Here’s the problem with her “I’m too cool for monogamy” justification for her obscene behavior: We are all free to fuck whoever we want in this society. That is not the issue- and she knows it isn’t.
The issue is she LIES about it. And the most disturbing line, to me is the following:
“Part of the reason I seek affairs instead of an “open relationship” is because I profoundly enjoy the privacy and the intimate knowledge I share only with myself. I love myself in a way that is as visceral as the love I have for my partner, or a close friend”
This beeeeotch doesn’t lie out of necessity. She GETS OFF ON IT.
This woman is a malignant narcissist. Possibly a sociopath.
Someone stop her before she procreates and ruins the lives of her poor future children.
I totally agree. She essentially admits she enjoys the deceit. Or, excuse me, “the intimate knowledge I share only with myself.”
I think her words are a window into how these narcissists see themselves, how the only “reality” for them is in their own minds. Her words make it clear she has no empathy. In that sense, what these people write is very important for helping chumps to see what their narcissistic partners are really like. She isn’t any worse than Jackass or Fred’s wife or any of the rest of the predators we write about here every day. She’s garden variety, even down to the need to publish her inane, self-referential thoughts.
That’s the telling part….that she ENJOYS the lies. It isn’t about treating herself to lots of sex, it’s the betrayal that’s the thrill.
That’s the way the ex was. He isn’t enjoying his sordid sex romps so much now that he doesn’t have anybody to lie to about it.
These people are just big black holes.
narcissists can only have transactional relationships, not intimate ones. if something isn’t in it for them, or it gets hard and emotional, rather than dig deep to do the work, they need to complete the transaction with a bunch of bobble-heads chanting yes to everything they say. my dickhead does it and his npd mother does it. and as soon as we moved close to her after 25 years, he began acting exactly like that for the first time in our relationship. his mother coos in his ear (not exaggerating, she whispers in his ear all the time) “you are special and you deserve to be praised for everything” because it reflects well on her. cha ching, transaction complete.
“the intimate knowledge I share only with myself” has got to be THE most elegant word salad distortion for “LIE” I have heard yet. There should be a trophy.
I am laughing out loud, yet the hair is standing up on the back of my neck.
I don’t know if statements like that constitute word salad, or verbal diarrhea.
Either way, it makes my head hurt.
Maybe ” diarrhea salad”.
I think the author, somewhere in her pea-brain narcissist’s head, knows she’s not quite right. Otherwise the little chicken shit would not post anonymously. Classic…kibble gathering. She’s so low on the comprehension scale that she doesn’t get it that spreading your legs for every six pack you fall over in a business hotel bar, is NOT a relationship.
She doesn’t even have a relationship with her regular man.
Touchet.
An OW who taunted me is similar to this blogger: an ATTENTION WHORE.
Now that she is stuck with a kid from my defective Ex, she seeks her kibbles by blogging about her intimate issues, going on tabloid talk shows and making a public spectacle of herself. She is go up her own arse that she truly doesn’t seem to see how twisted and ugly she is. I taped her most recent appearance and showed it to some colleagues…without telling them her role in my torture…and their reaction was ‘ew….’ what a loser… I know my Ex would cringe at all that so he will be back on the whore trail finding his own dirty little secret encounters. Looking forward to the next chapter in that drama.
The blogger we are examining here is doing the same. No doubt all the negative reaction she gets will egg her on because good or bad, kibbles are kibbles.
To her, we are all the ‘stupid ones’ out there who haven’t realised that we too can make false promises to our partners. That little world ‘in her own head’ shows a complete lack of acceptance that she too is just like the rest of us, except that most people have enough self-respect to know that lying is WRONG. Screwing strangers – simply a mechanical act.
No one has likely ever modelled integrity for her. She will be a lonely old prune.
To her, we are all the ‘stupid ones’ out there who haven’t realised that we too can make false promises to our partners.
Yep. If I had to profile the author, I would say she reminds me of folks I have come across that think their willingness to lie, cheat, steal, break laws in general, or be violent to get what they want underhandedly… makes them especially clever.
I suspect she views the fact that others are restrained “by conventional notions of morality” as a kind of weakness in everybody else.
I’ve never been cheated on (well not that I know of but I’m young) I’ve always felt it’s horrible the way society gives cheaters a pass. So when I found Chump Lady I was like ‘Yeah! Someone that explains everything I feel about why cheating is wrong is such a great way’ Personally I can’t be friends with someone who is a cheater and the moment I find out someone cheats I can’t stand them. It’s like they’re never the same in my eyes no matter how much everyone thinks they’re such a good person. I think they should be shunned. And I hate how my generation hides behind the ‘Don’t be judgmental’ bullshit to excuse blatantly horrible behaviour like cheating.
Reading things like this make me feel sick. What I don’t understand is if she’s as cool and as evolved as she thinks she is, surely she’ll be able to bag a guy that also believes in her ‘monogamy is for ninnies’ belief system. There’s plenty of them running around. Or surely since it’s such a great thing her husband would be willing to play along?
These people are complete and utter frauds and the way they rationalise and delude themselves into thinking that what they’re doing isn’t just straight wicked and selfish is truly shocking.
Ah, Youth! Re your comment, A Standing Ovation! I have always believed truth is best. I n every relationship I have. Welcome to CL.
Good grief!
What a pathetic person. Makes me wonder what she is going to do when she ages, everything starts heading south (and it all will) and she will no longer be a “hottie”. Will she drop her standards in order to keep the affairs going, screwing less than fabulous guys because that’s all she will be able to attract as she gets older? What is BF finds out and dumps her? The obvious outcome of such behavior is winding up alone. The mental picture of some old broad taking on somebody….anybody just to have a warm body for a while is pretty hurl inducing. Ick! But of course that will never happen to her because she is so special……Can we say delusional?
Tessie, I am still a hottie at 62 years of age!! 🙂 The only problem with that is that my ex husband of 37 years now prefers late teen to 20 year old prostitutes of a certain ethnic group. Many white Australian baby boomer blokes are the same. They are trading in long term wives for the young ones overseas. It is an epidemic and they are bringing them back to Australia to set up home.
By the way, I am not a hottie but I am still very presentable. But not enough for the ex who told me I am too old for him now and he is also 62 years old. They can’t see themselves, can they.
I watched a very middle aged guy wheel his kid around Walmart with his new Asian wife ( half his age ) and it was interesting.
The child was obviously from his first marriage. He looked haggard and disoriented at best.
She looked like she loathed him and would not walk beside him. She had mentally “checked out” of the relationship…I mean meal ticket.
He has his karma and so does she 🙂
Your cheating husband better lay in a big supply of Viagra.
That’s a good reminder to file early after the bomb has been dropped, when these idiots still think they’re invincible and attractive. Early on, they may even feel a smidge of guilt, but also that they’re cosmically compelled. So take them for everything you can. Because at some point they’re going to wake the hell up and realize they have completely fucked up and are desperate and alone. That’s not when you want to move on–when they’re all used up. Get them while they’re grand.
I told my ex-wife something along these lines when we separated. “You may feel great now, but do you think the kind of man who pursues a married woman will be there for you once the thrill is gone, and you’re old and gray?” She only saw it as me accusing her of being vain (which I guess I was, but that’s not all I was doing), and dismissed it as me trying to make her into a monster.
…because she didn’t already do a great job of that herself….
Well, CL, the comments prove your point: most people are decent and kind, and you need to get AWAY from these selfish character disordered people because there are many more nice people out there.
The comments are overwhelming disapproving and aware of the reality that is cheating: that it is selfish, and cruel.
Gives me hope.
Besides the initial shock, anger, and revulsion over the absurdity of this article by a cheater, I am mostly sad. It hurts my heart to watch such horrific self-deception and the obvious destruction this person is causing by her willful choices to deceive plus cheat. And it is sickening to see it promoted as good. Disgusting. And oh so very sad.
I just had a few minutes to read the article in it’s entirety. I’m honestly surprised my head didn’t explode at the ignorance and utter selfishness of this woman. I have absolutely no comprehension of such despicable behavior. I remember stbxh saying to me “I never thought you would find out.” I thought he was out of his mind…first of all because he seemed to be saying that having an affair was ok as long as I didn’t know about it and secondly because he was fucking a woman who left her husband and children to be with him…she was determined to make damn sure I found out and in the most humiliating way possible!! No way she was going to lose the man of her dreams! I will never, ever understand people who behave this way. Sex is not meant to be an “all you can eat buffet” (at least not the kind of sex I’m looking for!) Screwing around on a committed partner and getting away with it does not make you some kind of new age, enlightened love goddess. It makes you a liar and a cheat. Folks can try to dress up adultery any way they want…but even a sugar coated piece of shit is still a piece of shit.
“I remember stbxh saying to me “I never thought you would find out.””
My STBX said “I just hoped you’d never find out”. Meaning he would have continued to screw me over forever if he could have.
Yes, Sandy! Mine said the same thing. Then I asked “So what you’re saying is if I didn’t know, then in your twisted mind you weren’t doing anything vile to me?” Crickets. These people have NO emotional connection to their “loved ones” at all. Even before D-Day and my subsequent investigation into the vortex that is NPD, I said to him once, “You know, when our son and I aren’t standing right in front of you, we still EXIST. We are not characters in the movie of your life.” He had the nerve to look shocked. These “people” are a completely different breed – a sub category of homo sapiens.
True, they are wired very differently. I am surprised we can procreate with them. Their DNA must be different.
Word.
Yup, yup, yup. As my kids would say.
Loving the comments over on that site. People are really going to town and explaining exactly why this person is completely fucked up.
There are a few who don’t think it can be real, that a person like this can possibly exist. They’ve obviously lived sheltered lives, the lucky bastards. 🙂
‘There are a few who don’t think it can be real, that a person like this can possibly exist. They’ve obviously lived sheltered lives, the lucky bastards. :)’
ROFL 😀
CL, this post rocks — though I have to complain that your closing lines made me snort my Diet Coke up my nose, which was NOT cool! One of my former best friends is currently hooked up with a married woman who behaves a bit like this. Note that he’s a former best friend; I can’t forgive him for what he’s doing to her poor husband.
This is when you tell the married woman’s husband, complete with details.
Make it so hes knowledgeable about the full story and can make decisions as such.
Thank you CL for linking to this. It was like reading what the inside of my STBXH’s head must be like. And it was so vile, disgusting, and disordered that it helped me continue to trust that he sucks.
It was also kind of traumatizing to read this as well, and know that I was in fact married to someone who could so easily and fully undermine me and my reality.
Exactly.
Hey got a look at my ex the other day and he definitely mirrors this cheater thought process. He was marvelous, too good for me and our kids, and having “smokin’ hot sex” with his racquetball partner (now Owife, lucky her!). He simply looks like shit now. Really don’t all cheaters look like shit?
That’s because they are shit.
Oh Drew. Yes they do look like s**t, but they think they “feel younger and more alive than they ever have in thier lives!” Yuk! I want that mirror they are using! My COPD, poor circulation, false tooth ST BX thinks he’s Don Juan! Hope he can still get it up on his next birthday for his Schmoopie cause at 60 he needs to realize he is old and equipment starts to fail at that age! Especially when he’s over using it to the max!! Makes me want to vomit!
my ex wasn’t the best looking, but he thought he was the shit when he was with me, while fucking his married, plain, homely, white trash skanky side dish fucks, and now he looks like shit, much worse than before! My heart bleeds lol!
My ex used to be very handsome. Now he looks … watered down. And final OW? Not much to look at at all.
doesn’t that break your heart Nord? My guess would be no. Let him live with that thing and consequence’s of his shitty decisions. You take care of you and your children, live your life happy knowing he is her problem now and sit back and watch them plummet down even more with time…because I can assure you, that they will.. 🙂
my XH looks bad and apparently she doesnt notice or doesnt care. all she wanted to have “was a man” any man would do. she saw what we had and mistakenly thought he had done it all (everything we own, 4 wheelers, boats, jetskis, pool was all bought and paid for by me.) and she wanted what we had. she is going to have a very rude awakening when she finds out he never does anything. i wonder how long he can lie to her about why he is not doing anything and how it is because he is the victim. i mean i was such a mean, hateful person who never let him do anything, or drink or go visit his crappy friends and family.
but ya, last picture i saw of him, he looks way bad, pale, thin, sick and yea it hurt me to see him like that. first thing i thought was OMG he is miserable. and he needs me to take care of him because she obvisously is not. but then i realized. THAT is what he wanted. he wanted a girl that wouldnt ask him for anything, no responsiblities. it is just too damn bad he doesnt know how to take care of himself and surprise, surprise that she doesnt even notice.
SMDH… it is just sad
who’s * the fool now lol, cant edit.
your story seems very similar to mine. My cheating ex’s OW’s thought the house, vehicles, my clothes and jewelry etc. was all because of him and they wanted what I had and he let them think that. (everything is mine) Those skanks were doing lot of sexual favors in hopes, one day they will live in my house, live my life with all those expensive things. I can only imagine their horror when I threw his ass out and they realized they did all that for nothing!! LOL!! whose the fool now and where did they go? isn’t it disgusting, there are so many predator women out there wanting all that without any work on their part so they get in bed with someone else’s man? But those women didn’t make any promises to us, they did and didn’t say “thanks, but no thanks, I am already taken”
He can only lie to her so long, eventually she will wake up and smell the coffee! oops, too late lol!
And as far as him looking bad, just think of it like CL says, “he fired you from that job of caring when he decided to cheat!” don’t feel bad for him not even a nanosecond and let him rot!!
But she has recently insisted that she doesn’t think he’ll cheat. And I, for one, believe that to be true. Mwahahahaha
Of course he wont cheat on her Nord, because She.is.special. LOL!
My ex doesn’t look great, that’s for sure. He’s lost some weight but he looks older and has this pained look in his eyes. It’s sort of sad, really. I think he thought it was all going to be sunshine and roses. Not so much, it seems.
It’s butt ugly behind the mask!
Yaaawwwwwnnnnn. These people are all the same. They really are… Assholes straight from central casting. They try so hard to convince others that they are so cerebral and deep an