Dear Chump Lady, Don’t confess an affair?
Dear Chump Lady,
A lot of advice nowadays paints confessing an affair as worse than having one. Can you please rebut the following arguments?
- Confessing an affair is disrespectful and selfish.
- Only confess if you’ve been caught or you’ve contacted a STD. If neither happened and the affair is over, keep it to yourself.
- Cheating is none of your spouse’s business. This was a private act you needed in order to figure out what was missing in your marriage. Now that you know, don’t create unnecessary upheaval by confessing. Instead, just work on creating a stronger marriage.
Thanks,
Irritated Ida
Dear Ida,
1.) Having an affair is disrespectful and selfish. Continuing to keep secrets is disrespectful and selfish. Unilaterally making decisions about someone’s welfare whom you purport to love is disrespectful and selfish.
Confessing, however, is changing the balance of power and ceding control to the person you chumped. I would argue that confession comes from a place of humility, which is the antithesis of selfishness.
That said, some people “confess” to get to the narrative first before the affair partner does (who may threaten exposure). Although I think authentic confession is a good thing, affairs are messy, so I tend toward skepticism on the “truth telling.” Also, while confession is a good start, remember you don’t owe anybody reconciliation no matter how contrite they are.
It’s that very concern — that cheating could be a deal breaker for the chump — that excuses cake-eating. Why give up power when cake is so delicious?
2.) Only confess if you’ve been caught or have an STD? Please. Cheaters will cop only to what you catch them dead to rights about, and even then they’ll gaslight you until you doubt your senses. An STD? Oh you must’ve caught that 20 years ago with someone else and it’s been dormant in your system. Or you sat on the wrong toilet seat, or they didn’t wash the gym towels on a hot enough setting.
Hey Chump Nation — from your experience of cheaters, what’s a more likely scenario — unvarnished honesty about what they’ve exposed you to, or preposterous excuses?
This argument says you can only confess if there are demonstrable consequences — like mortification or disease. Of course during an affair, there are consequences for the chump — who is being disrespected and whose health is risked. And just because one’s penis didn’t break out in festering pustules doesn’t mean nothing was passed on. How the hell would you know?
The assumption here is that the only consequences that matter are consequences that effect the cheater. Hurting the chump? Carry on.
3. A private matter? I wonder how this person would feel if I embezzled their pension fund and claimed that enriching myself was just a private matter between me and my wallet?
It’s an illusion to think that affairs don’t hurt your partner. Did it take time? Did it cost money? Well yes, but so does my golf game.
Right… cheating is just recreational sport. No harm, no foul. Did anyone get pregnant? Catch a disease? Jesus Christ, we’re talking about PEOPLE here, not croquet wickets!
Chumps rightly believe in the “private matter” of an exclusive relationship. But apparently renegotiating those terms to benefit only one party is also a “private matter.” Funny how that works.
As for cheating to figure out what was missing in your marriage? You can’t be strange pussy no matter how hard you try. Cheaters have agency — if they feel something is “missing” in their marriages, they can try honest conversation, therapists, or divorce lawyers. They’re not entitled to harm chumps during their Happiness exploratory missions.
What all these bullshit arguments have in common is assuming that truth is problem, not cheating. It’s treating chumps like children (who I also don’t advocate gaslighting For Their Own Good either). You aren’t ready for the truth, it wouldn’t be good for you! I would tell you, but I can’t because it would hurt you!
You can hear this kind of condescending mindfuckery in other settings. When I lived in apartheid South Africa, white people used to tell me that blacks “just aren’t ready for democracy.” The problem isn’t white privilege, oh no, we just can’t give blacks the vote out of our benevolent concern for them. They can’t be trusted with self-determination!
Same bullshit here, different entitlement.
“Don’t confess” is just code for cake.
Bang on CL – ‘preposterous excuses’ AKA absolute bullshit!
What is it with cheaters, narcs and cheater-apologists?
More of the old ‘it’s not what I’ve done wrong that’s the problem, it’s your reaction to it’.
They put sooooo much effort into thinking up so many preposterous excuses and ludicrous lies … adding insult to injury by assuming that us chumps will automatically fall for it by giving them the benefit of the doubt.
It took me years to see behind shitferbrains’ mask (and send him packing) but I’ve realised so many others in my life play the same game ?
Man. CL put a dime in our jukeboxes today! 🙂
NOT confessing the affair is beyond disrespectful and selfish!
By withholding the truth, they are putting themselves above God. They are taking the God given right away from the faithful spouse to divorce their cheater if they choose to because of adultery.
Agreed! Even God asks you to confess wrongdoing. Why do cheaters think this does not apply to them? Oh yeah, because they are special and above that. They think they are not held accountable to God because they think they ARE God.
No! They think that they can sin and then ask for forgiveness. 70 x 70.
God understands the cheater, and will forgive him (they tell themselves).
Here’s the prayer A-hole used to read: “He who forgiveth even the most grievous of sins.”
Also, James Bond (aka A-Hole) would ask: Do you expect me to confess my sins to you? (Not allowed, only God can forgive.)
BUT Here’s a reality to face:
Question: How do you know your sins are forgiven?
Answer: You stop sinning.
This post makes me wonder, does anyone actually confess an affair out of guilt? Of all the hundreds of infidelity stories I’ve heard, I don’t recall one where the cheating partner confessed out of the blue. It was either the BS “I’m so confused and unhappy, no there’s no one else” like my ex, or they were caught through texts or emails. Maybe the guilty confessors are the minority who end up working it out.
I am friends with someone who had extra-marital physical contact with another man (not sex, but very inappropriate). It was a business trip kind of thing (or something), so it was not like she was going to be an ongoing relationship… I’m not sure where they wound up on the issue of texting/emailing. Whatever it was – she easily could have “gotten away with it” and never had her husband find out.
At any rate – she very quickly realized that she had done that because of some very real problems in her marriage and that she needed to own up and get that shit resolved… not just live a lie. So she told her husband, and they got divorced, and they each moved on. She acknowledges that it was the wrong thing to do, and is quite honest with herself about what a horrible choice she made. She also is not a psychopath, so she knew she owed it to her husband to give him honesty and accept that she had done the thing that killed their marriage (which did have problems) and accept the consequences.
She’s older and wiser now and honestly is incredibly insightful about the whole thing. This is the only case I have ever heard. But as a I said – this was a basically good person who made a shitty choice out of frustration and immaturity. Not a cake-eating asshole.
I know someone like that too. One night stand, and then freaked out and called her husband home from work that very morning to confess and lay bare everything. She’d been trying so many ways to talk about their marital problems, and he refused to engage in any of it. They got divorced. I understand his betrayal and hurt (more so since I’ve been chumped for sure), but he was an ass. I think she couldn’t figure it out and did her best, and to this day says that it was a terrible mistake, she regrets it, he didn’t deserve it no matter what he had done, etc etc, and she tried so hard at counseling and talking after but really divorce was the only way to go. She showed true remorse, which was so useful for me later when seeing what my STBX did. What he did looked nothing like remorse, let alone real remorse. Among other things he said, “I don’t have any remorse.” He almost made it too easy for me to decide to move on…
It’s a sad story but at least she had the guts to be honest with her then-husband.
My cheater came straight out and told me, “it’s over.” I had no clue and was completely blindsided. He was also experiencing a hypomanic state is his not yet diagnosed Bipolar syndrome, so who knows what was going on in his mind. He said that he couldn’t take all the lies anymore. And chumpy me thought, “Lies? What lies? I haven’t been lying.”
I had no idea what a lied he was.
I don’t believe the cheaters actually feel guilt. You have to have a heart and emotions for someone else besides yourself to do this. If the cheater felt guilty or had true emotions they probably wouldn’t cheat to begin with, but everything is about them and not the casualties their cheating leaves behind.
Mine would NEVER admit to cheating because he never stuck his dick inside any orifice. The time he spent surfing porn, sexting his AP wasn’t cheating. Sexting via Skype with his three year old son in the room. But karma – they are divorced and he is onto number 3.
Hmm, well, he eventually did since they got married so I bet he had some in person time during your marriage. I’m so glad you shared they are divorced. I love it when it’s not as great as they think it is and the marriage doesn’t last!
I agree w you soooo much. It’s all about them. When then we leave them, again they make it all about them…
Im 5 yrs out,only separated. It’s been hell since day 1 after finding out. No he didn’t confess, he was caught, but begged me to believe he loved me, he even said, ” I could even ask the ow if I didn’t believe him, as she was jealous of the love he had for me !!!!”
OMG!!!?
I think they can feel everything but they compartmentalise. Their feelings and principles are like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that is never assembled and has a few bits missing so can’t form a full picture. They hook up with APs and whores who are like them and think it’s OK to be like this. Chumps who can make a whole picture, we just don’t get them at this fundamental level and we keep trying to build the whole picture in vain.
Kiwichump, mine even talks proudly about his ability to compartmentalise. And claims that thanks to his skill to do so I never suspected his affairs. No, I did not, although I always felt his emotional abuse and degrading everything about me. I was never good enough. But even with the emotional abuse and his distancing and withrawal of sex that I accutely felt, I always believed he is the man of integrity. I did not live with a guarantee that we”ll grow old together. I always in the back of my mind thought it was possible that things may happen. But I was confident that he would tell me from the outset if there was another woman in his life. Because I looked at thim through Chump- lenses. Because I would do the same.
He told me his married AP who lives in another country and has a visible government post, told her husband and her 11 yr old daughter about her affair. She does not live in a lie and kept pressing my husband throughout all these years to do the same-tell me. I think her husband could be gay or simply does not care. She also has multiple sex flings because meeting with the love of her life (my husband) is not that easy with her demanding job and being over the ocean. So she compartmentalises her life and mine does with his. And as long as the chumps don’t know, then noone is harmed, right?
The real gem from him came when we were supposedly wreckonciling and he told me that at some point he contemplated telling me everything and live 6 months with her travelling and 6 months with me. With my blessing of course. My blood boils as I write this. He was essentially hoping that I would learn compartmentalising.
They don’t confess because they hope to do it still or again and don’t wish to invite your scrutiny into their behavior. That is the consequence they fear most … not your hurt or anger.
Remember too, they have their perfect, good guy imagine to maintain to outsiders. If by chance they’re is evidence of an indiscretion on their part well, can you blame them? They will confide they been the victim of abuse, living with an unstable partner who drove them to cheat. What else cold they do? Their wife or husband is unstable, sexless, bipolar, alcoholic.. fill in the blank. In desperation they found AP.
I’m wading in the dating pool and was talking to a girlfriend yesterday and she was encouraging me to make sure I ask pointed questions. I said “it doesn’t matter if I ask the question, if he wants to lie, he will lie. Do you honestly think that in two years when ExH wants a new wife appliance he’s going to honestly tell the poor soul that I fucked my 15 year younger ho-worker, emotionally and verbally abused my wife for years and I’m a complete asshole with a pathological lack of empathy. No – he’s going to say we grew apart and decided to split up or some bullshit.”
They lie to themselves so much that they eventually just believe it.
I would not ask pointed questions. i would ask very indirect questions. watch how he reacts to films or other stories about adultery, for example.
a lot of people out themselves when you don’t appear to be taking notes.
My h was so disgusted by cheaters he couldn’t even stomach seeing cheaters before he ever cheated. Now he has an anxiety attack whenever someone mentions an affair. That’s not stopping him from leaving for the OW though. Hopefully he pictures me every time he looks at her. He’s the one that abandoned our life and left me for dead
I don’t know any sane person who knew us as a couple that would buy that crap, but the APs sure believed it!
Yeah, it is interesting that cheaters and those with BPD/NPD characteristics don’t give a flying f*** about your hurt or anger, but at the same time, are categorically opposed to being judged or scrutinized by anyone, including you, the person they don’t give a shit about [destroying].
Doesn’t make sense, but their worlds are full of compartmentalized contradictions that don’t make sense.
They are precious and entitled and just and deserving. The heart wants what it wants: CAKE FOR ME ME ME!
^^^This!!^^^
My ex spontaneously confessed, though I don’t believe it was out of guilt. He decided he wanted to be rid of me, was having panic attacks at work from having his mistress and wife suddenly in the same city, and knew that telling me about the affair mere months after our wedding (and after a decade and a child together) would break me. In my case, his confession was offensive, not contrite. If the confession isn’t immediately followed by “and here’s how I’m going to fix all of this and do right by you” then it has very little to do with guilt, even if it is voluntary.
My ex confessed 20 years ago. 2 years after he cheated. It was on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement for Jewish people. He was tossing and turning and told me he had something to tell me. He said he had cheated one time by going to a prostitute after we had a bad fight and he actually said I had told him to go get someone else during our argument. I left him for 2 weeks but was a SAHM and scared and went back and “worked it out.” I wish I had never gone back with him and stayed 20 more years until I found out he betrayed me again. Oh, and by the way, the only time he apologized for all the pain he put me through was again, on Yom Kippur when he called me last year to apologize. How I wish I left the first time he cheated. They never change. We have been separated 2 years and finally divorced 2 months ago. It’s slowly getting better.
Interesting that your cheater confessed out of guilt. Guilt at least indicates that they have feelings and a conscience which is better than a lot of the cheaters we read about here. But confession out of guilt is also dumping the burden on the chumps to make themselves feel better, so another selfish act. They should not expect or ask for forgiveness in these circumstances. But if they confess out of guilt and accept all consequences, then it’s a slightly better class of cheater and there’s something to work with. Problem is, how can you tell?
Also, I am not Jewish so I don’t know how it works with Yom Kippur. Does it place the burden on the victim if you confess on this day?
I think “guilt” is just another blame-shift that cheaters use, a sympathy ploy because they’re “suffering too”, an external force from their upbringing that gives them the sadz.
It’s cake with a side order of guilt. They’re eating well, but they feel bad about it, so they must be a good person, and good people deserve cake. It isn’t true remorse … it’s an excuse and it’s selfish.
Chump, exactly that! My ex BS’ed me first time 5 years ago when I found a hotel booking for two. Then continued gaslighting after I read the texts going back to at least 1.5 years. Kept telling me that it was just a friendly communication with his ex who had problems and he helps her with counseling! It took me 5 more months of pressing, probing, pleading until he confessed to the multiple affairs over the entire period of our marriage. 12 years. And afterwards he felt so relieved because poor him could not continue living in lies anymore. And chump me I thought he gets it now. I thought the channels of communication have opened. We had heart to heart talks where he told me details that made me cringe. In the hindsight I understand how he enjoyed it. He had always told me that I was masochistic and liked pain and that he was a sadist and got a high from causing pain. Even just on an emotional level. So he always half jokingly said that we were made for each other. We complemented each other. wtf!
So after confessing I thought things would change. But he clearly blamed me for all his flings because I “never really loved him or so he thought so he had to take care of his needs” While in reality he checked himself out of the marriage early on and I thought he was just that type. A loner. So I took everything upon me. Until I discovered he can be quite checked in if he wanted.
Whatever we do or say, they always win. It’s just useless to engage with them into a human language. They don’t speak it. They only speak cheater-linguo.
My ex confessed only when caught – and then he went on to tell me more details than I wanted to know. I could see he enjoyed telling me somehow although he pretended fake remorse – it was less about unburdening of secrets and more about punishing me further. He even whipped out a photo of his (one of many) OWs, as if I would be impressed.
They have no shame… It’s funny how well they can fake loving us in the beginning, but they don’t have a handle on faking the remorse once their cheating is out in the open. Saying I’m sorry and continuing to be an asshole just doesn’t quite cut it, does it? I told my ex that I didn’t want to hear his “apologies” and “I love you’s” — he needed to PROVE to me that he truly was sorry. He then got furious that I wouldn’t just forgive him and forget and take him back… How quickly that fake remorse switches to full-on rage when they don’t get their way!!
People with a conscience freely confess. I agree with you, Vastra, that it is rare for a cheating partner to come clean on their own due to him/her truly having a sense of guilt or shame and a desire to genuinely make amends. An outright confession is more likely to happen during those abrupt discards when the cheating spouse has decided to leave to be with an AP.
In my experience, confession can also happen when you tell your spouse that you finally realize that all the circumstantial evidence over a 20 year marriage could not possibly be explained by anything other than infidelity – and that you are going to file for divorce immediately absent the truth.
My ex was desperate to save the marriage (I flatter myself – she was desperate to save CAKE), and with great drama and tears, confessed to one ten-month affair with a former boss that had supposedly ended six years earlier. What she confessed, not surprisingly, was a grain of sand on what turned out to be a beach of serial infidelity with multiple AP’s over years and years, but the threat of divorce at least forced her to admit that she had cheated.
For what its worth, I loved her and wanted to try and save the marriage. What I said to her was not intended to deceive her into confirming infidelity, and then use her confession as my ticket out. I went with her to marriage counseling for months, and suffered the devastation that we all know so well. But she kept lying. I swear to The Great Pumpkin that she just COULD NOT, even then, tell the truth about anything to save her life (or our marriage), and I reluctantly acknowledged to myself that I would never be safe in a relationship with her. My counselor agreed (he basically told me to run like my hair was on fire). I did. Now, so glad I did.
Yes, there is no experience like going to a marriage counselor, baring one’s soul, exposing all to “make it work”, only to discover that cheater cannot even tell the truth in that setting! As I eagerly carried on the hard work of self-examination in that supposedly safe setting, X was content to watch my pain and lie, lie, lie, about his conduct. Oh sure, if he was caught dead to rights, he would “confess”, but only so much as he thought I knew, and even then he would find a way to turn it all around on me. If only I was a loving wife, I would understand the deep bond between he and OW, a pure, loving bond formed by their mutual public exposure. My reaction was the problem, not their sacred friendship, So even the cheater’s admission is worthless, absolutely worthless.
The habitual lying is what did it for me… My ex denied doing anything “wrong” when I confronted him. I had proof that he was emailing multiple other women and trying to arrange hook-ups with them. I also had found out via my neighbors that he had other women to our HOUSE when I was out of town. Yet, I did not have hard evidence that anything “physical” ever occurred. So, the only thing he admitted to was just “talking with friends”… Veritable bullshit in my opinion.
I also loved him and wanted to save our marriage. I gave him the chance to redeem himself. He, however, could not resist The Call Of The Strange… and I decided I was done. That’s when he started begging, pleading and crying for me not to throw our marriage away and he made all kinds of promises to change… Only, it was a little too late coming. I ran, too.
So many men’s voices today. What an amazing community.
From what I have heard lately it seems that there are either more male chumps every year now or more are speaking out. One ex-neighbour of mine (a guy) was cheated on twenty years ago and didn’t tell anyone for years as he was ashamed. His sons were told the divorce was his fault. His narc still swims around him and he only plucked up the courage to marry his long term girlfriend last year. Narc not happy. Needless to say CL’s book was an eye opener.
I had a surprising conversation with a bunch of bikers who come on the farm every year to prepare the trail for the local high school’s fundraising trail ride. I told them the traitor was gone and why, that he had dumped me for the whore he has presumably cheated with the entire time we’ve been together. Well, immediately one told me he’d been there and came home to find a note from his wife that she had left (with another man) and another piped up, same story. 2 male chumps out of the 3 on my doorstep. I would never have guessed it was so common until I started speaking out. So many chumps don’t say anything, they are ashamed of being chumped by these whores.
There were always just as many male chumps and just as many female cheaters. There is just more societal emphasis on the reverse, including movie and sitcom plots, stereotypes, etc. It is “manly” to cheat and “submissive” to be chumped … which is rubbish, of course.
.
Right on.
JK
I like the advice to run like your hair is on fire!
Yours is a devastating story. Your strength and hope and then the bewilderment at their ability to lie.
My STBX came home recently (we are in the middle of the divorce) and I caught him in another lie, by accident, I wasn’t even trying to and it was just incomprehensible to me. Even he didn’t seem know why he lied. It’s like a malign reflex. The lie didn’t change anything it was just pointless. I really don’t get it. But you are right, you just realise that it’s all over. You will never feel safe.
Yep. All that.
What we don’t know doesn’t hurt the cheater.
Who suggests all this crap? I havent seen it unless you count written into most sitcoms where every character seems incapable of keeping their hands to themselves and it’s glorified.
I haven’t seen it too much either. Luckily I found my way to Chump Lady quickly. Psychology Today does have some RIC crap, but from the stories CL and other members tell, there are some real fever swamps of wreckonciliation out there on the internet and in religious enclaves.
All three justifications are clearly convenient accommodations for the cheater. All of us here have enough UBT training to recognize their self-serving nature in an instant. What bothers me is how often I have read just that advice in popular magazines. And long before I knew that the topic was relevant to me, which is to say before such a topic would leap out and grab my attention. That advice is as well known and accepted as washing whites in hot water and redirecting toddlers rather than participating in a showdown. Our society has signaled that we accept and accommodate cheating. How sad.
Agreed Dixie and furthermore, this is why *no contact* is crucial after discovery of your spouse’s betrayal whether the cheater confessed or not.
A cheaters perspective is so convoluted in the sense of their justification for the cheating. They *really* feel justified for cheating!
Since they feel justified their cheating, they will then effectively justify everything BEFORE/DURING/AFTER Dday. This mind-fuckery will leave you further debilitated and extend your healing time.
You can’t reason with a cheater after the affair just as you can’t reason with a grizzly bear while it attacks you.
Sure,
At least a Grizzly Bear is honest! It doesn’t tell you it’s eating you for your benefit and that it’s hurting them more than you to chow down on your chumpy soul.
Exactly Cap, nobody needs to be told about the abusers hurt or pain for ripping *your* heart out of *your* chest, hence no contact with the cheater.
You cheat – you get to talk to the hand.
You cheat – I will run and I’m done.
You cheat – I’m finito.
You cheat – I’m gone
You cheat – See ya, wouldn’t want to be ya.
You cheat – I’m outta here.
You cheat – C’est la vie.
You can’t fix the incurable!
Sure
You hit the nail on the head there.
“You can’t fix the incurable.”
I’m just amazed I didn’t see it that way before. I guess this is ‘trust that they suck’ but I like the way you said that.
Thanks!
Perfectly stated Dixie – and so tragic for society.
My ex convinced my “best friend” and her husband to hide his stealing my money and buying two hang gliders with it for him and his lover. None of them thought to tell me until after he got caught leaving the children in a hot locked car in the middle of an Albuquerque street in a hot summer day. I’m constantly amazed at how these people can live with themselves. We’ve moved on.
Did they lock him up for this? Hope at least he can only have supervised visits with the kids now. He could have killed them.
I hope your babies are ok. My x tried to screw the baby sitter. I later found out she was horrible to the kids.
Cheaters don’t confess because deep down they aren’t sorry for their behavior, only the consequences of getting caught. I know of someone that has cheated on their spouse for 30 years boldly about town. The wife’s best friends have busted this guy with numerous women. I’ve asked friends of the wife why has no one told her. The response is she seems so happy and now they believe the cheater had settled down after 30 years. According to their logic long marriages are rare.
I say there wasn’t a marriage and their friend will find out. How will she feel knowing people kept her husband’s philandering to themselves? She deserved the truth.
My x engaged in financial infidelity, tried to descedit my reputation, exposed me and our family to his crazy ho’s. Pepole that cheat are cowards plain and simple.
If you want to screw around tell your spouse, better yet don’t marry.
Yes. All of this. They only confess when they get caught. What kind of confession is that? They are not interested in coming clean. Only in maintaining cake. Only cowards two time their spouses and then lie about it. Cheaters suck.
This post is timely for me… After sighting the fucktards bank statements through lawyers it is obvious he has a shag buddy due to the blatent spending pattern including alcohol purchase on a Friday night + DVD and followed up with a Saturday mornings trip to the local cafe on an almost weekly basis not in the location he is supposed to actually live …. confirmed by a random purchase of a piece of jewelry . I couldn’t care less at this point but he has been pleading poverty the whole year not paying child support and playing victim to the kids …poor me I have to live in a tiny apartment boo hoo ….clearly not for 1/2 the week with your mid life crisis tragic fuck. So while me and the kids are struggling daily to buy the basics its OK because ‘ dear kids I feel better in my life than I have for years ‘ …good for you ! Break out the bubbly ….note to self ….ask a friend to edit your guilt emails to the kids before pressing send .
Sorry double post and can’t delete! Lol Ugh!!
These disordered POS always claim poverty and don’t want to pay child support. Why pay for your kids to eat and be clothed when you can take a cruise instead? It’s almost like they forget they have children or the children become one more monthly bill that does not benefit them, so why pay it?
Our child was the “most important thing to him”. Uhuh, until he didn’t get the custody agreement and child support agreement which he deemed fair. Which consisted of him paying nothing and whenever he had the child to pawn it off on the closet person with a heartbeat which was the skank he cheated with or his Trailerpark northwest – oh hell no, I don’t freakin think so.
So now he pouts and whines about the injustice it is and how terrible I am for holding him accountable. Takes an extra special person to try to screw ones own child over. To say I hate him in an understatement ?
“These disordered POS always claim poverty and don’t want to pay child support. ”
May I direct you guys then to web page for “Divorce”. An HBO show where SJP plays an adulteress trying to get out of paying alimony to her STBX and father of her children.
http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/who-winning-divorce-wars-246459
Heisbroken,
The biological father of your children and the biological father of mine came from the same mold. I feel your pain.
+1 🙁
Since I have revealed my recent status as a chump to various friends, I have been asked countless times “am I glad I know or would I rather not have known”.
The first time a friend asked I was so shocked I didn’t know what to say. Now I am more resigned to this question.
It’s difficult to express how my blood runs cold to think what if I had NOT found out. It is an exquisite pain to know that while you are living a normal life, 100% trusting and vested in the relationship, they are out having sex with other women (or men), becoming emotionally close to another and having ‘couple’ experiences with them.
I always tell friends now to think about what they are asking. The risk of STD’s, the lying, the financial stuff, the BETRAYAL OF TRUST.
Then I remind them how shocked they were it was him. They no doubt trust their husbands as much as I do. Would they want to know?
I am sure we recent chumps lead to a fair few friends looking at their relationships and spouses with a much sharper eye – if this could happen to me then how safe are they? I’m sure no one walks away feeling comfortable which gives the lie to ‘oh I don’t think I’d want to know’.
It is of course another historical view of infidelity that is gradually changing. Thank goodness.
I wish it had not happened to me but I am sincerely and utterly grateful I did find out before it got even worse which is what would have happened if it had gone on undiscovered.
The longer infidelity goes on, or the length of time it takes to discover a past infidelity the greater the harm to the chump. As that point marks the spot where your loved one decided to throw you under the bus for their jollies. And became an imposter and a liar in the relationship. Everything changed at that point and so the harm increases as time goes by.
This article about Great Betrayals has been so very validating to me. I read it whenever I need a boost. A reminder that the struggles I’ve had now nearly two years on should not come as a surprise but rather are to be expected. Read it and soak in the assurance that your having fallen flat on your face after discovering your life wasn’t what you thought it was is one of the hardest experiences anyone can endure. Our stories of what we thought to be true were taken away from us in a very cruel way, and that’s greatly disorienting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/great-betrayals.html
Stood out to me too: the culture built upon the addict/betrayer rebuilding themself. The prodigal children indeed smh
I resisted reading that, dude.
This quote stood out to me: “But for the people who have been lied to, something more pervasive and disturbing occurs. They castigate themselves about why they didn’t suspect what was going on.” I see that sentiment here every day. Why didn’t I see it?
Great link.
Thanks for the link. I’m still reading it, but one thing jumped out. The thing about friends suggesting that the victim knowing at some level – my very own (former!) therapist said that I must have known on some level or I would have married my ex. It seems that every day I discover more ways that my therapist was incompetent.
Chump dude
That is a very powerful, validating piece of writing. It’s nice that some people out there ‘get’ how devastating it is to be betrayed.
I feel it’s all the more crushing because cheaters pick partners who are kind, loving, responsible and trusting and are furthermore very empathic.
It’s really quite something to experience.
Two women who I thought were close friends for YEARS dropped me as a friend after I told them about his cheating. I felt like a leper – as if they thought my husband’s cheating was somehow contagious and if they remained friends with me it might happen to them. Their excuse was “we hope all works out for the best, but this has just been too much for us.”
Oh – and they are staunch Catholics who encouraged me to convert (which I did along with my 3 kids). They always talked about “the right thing to do”. I would never have treated a friend in need this way. So good riddance.
Ps – My kids and I remain proud Catholics. Their hypocrisy was jaw dropping.
Sara Esq… you are new here and I like you already. I lost 2 friends also, but the weasel excuse you got from Mrs Hypocritical McCatholic is horrid.
My nowdeadcheater encouraged me to convert to Catholicism and it has been a precious treasure to me, nevermind he didn’t live up to his part of the bargain.
I am still Catholic even though I go to Mass alone these days. I was even a guest on a Catholic TV show and write for a catholic portal hahaha! I have been so very reassured by my faith knowing that I can trust God to handle cheaterhusband’s debrief in Purgatory with the right balance of justice, accountability and mercy.
Thank you UNM. One of the “grand gestures” my cheater made was agreeing to go to RCIA. When I was planning my kids’ baptism and my oldest son’s confirmation, he took no part in it. He was “working.” He even skipped eldest’s Confirmation (which our Archbishop oversaw – cringe) to go frisbee golfing. My best friend – also my Catholic sponsor – brought her entire family (including her 10 children and MIL) to the Confirmation ceremony. When she asked me where cheater was, I just started crying. In front of EVERYONE. I was so embarrassed. In any event, he showed me who he was then. I wish I would have believed him and not wasted anymore time.
I taught Comfirmation prep for my middle kids class and Cheater had to fly in for it because he was living 3000 miles away. He actually said “thank you” to me for following through with my commitments. Too bad he didn’t do the same. I now believe that our marriage was never sacramental, but I was certain that God would reward my faithfulness and He has.
I’m so very sorry that he bailed out on you (with that horrid excuse) for such an important event. He will be held accountable for his actions by the very God who blessed him with a faithful wife and kids who needed a dad.
Wow sara…just wow. I’m so sorry your cheater bailed not only on you, but on his child on such an important day. Unbelievable. (((Hugs to you!)))
Sara, I was married twenty years to a Cheater and special occasions are what the disordered blow up. Birthdays, Holidays, Vacations. They are always absent and disengaged even when they *honor* us with their presence.
Normal adults don’t do this. They understand priorities are happy for others and Engage. Narcs, not so much.
Frisbee Golfing. That kind of says it all, doesn’t it? And if you were looking for a clever disdainful name for your cheater, “the Frisbee Golfer” might work. Also, never worry about posting off topic around here … if that was a problem, we would ALL be in big trouble!!
Thank you DC. I think that will be his new name, or shorten it to FB (Fucking Bastard?) The kindness you all have shown me feels so incredible, and yet so foreign. I am crying happy tears, to be finally understood! I just love all of you!!!
FFGB — Fucking Frisbee Golfer Bastard. Too much? 🙂
Those two women who dropped you are what Chump Lady has dubbed “Switzerland” friends. A WWII reference – not xenophobia. They choose to remain ambivalent. Everybody has an agenda when it comes to adultery. You’ll find later, like most chumps here, that Switzerland friends are either: 1) chumps in wreckonciliation, 2) cheaters, or 3) blissfully ignorant (until they’re not).
Sorry – now that I read my comment it seems a little off topic. My point I guess is that I talked to these women about my suspicions and fear for several years before finally receiving confirmation from the OW. I believe they are the type of people who would rather not know, continue to live in their happy little bubbles and carry on as if all is ok. Their abrupt termination of our friendship spoke volumes to me in terms of many people not wanting to know they’ve been chumped.
The word “bubble” triggered a memory.
My cheater husband kept throwing his own frustrations at me all this time and one of his latest recurring accusations was that I lived in a happy bubble. I guess he wanted to push me to discover his affairs so that I would then leave him and he would validate his long-term claim that all women are “betraying bitches”, but he did not have guts to put it out bluntly, and so was suffering – poor thing! So while he was suffering (because cheaters cannot be happy no matter what because they have one big hole in their soul – a bottomless pit) I was living in a happy bubble! This happy bubble comment was usually used not in reference to any women (trust me, I would never cheat on you!) but around my complete disinterest in world affairs. No interest in politics, global events, nothing! So every time he would ask his “exam” questions on something happening in the world in the hope to flash his intellect and scold and humiliate me for my complete ignorance and genuine “no- interest”. And then he would proceed into an open confrontation wondering how he could pick me for marriage when we did not have common interests to share. This usually ended with me living in a bubble, alienated from the cruelty happening on a daily basis in the world, people dying, etc, and all I was interested in was my “little life!” I always felt quite humiliated after those comments.
When I asked him, post DDay, why he did not come to me when he felt so unhappy in the marriage and tell me the truth, he told me that he did not want to burst the little happy bubble I was living in! So now I am interested and well versed in politics and global events, mostly dictated by my work, and I don’t live in a bubble anymore, but the poor cheater is still unhappy. He preferred a chump-in-a-bubble to a chump-with-a-bubble-burst!
Long term
I got the same comments from people. My STBX worked abroad in Asia for six years. People just sort of asked what I had expected. A man over there? Who wouldn’t take advantage? It was even BEFORE he cheated that they would say this. I was defending us. We talked every day. It was to put our kids through college as pay was higher. We talked about the risks. We were ok.
Only they were right and I was a huge chump. He was able to get away with it much easier as he was out of the country most of the time but to know that in all those hundreds of FaceTime calls one of his OW was there just kills. It wasn’t so bad he said – he always left the table or the room or their side to talk to me. Oh that’s ok then. Phew.
Sorry, Sara–losing friends is the second round of hell after betrayal. It hurts, no doubt, but think of it as cleaning house. A few years out, you’ll be glad those jerks are out of your life.
Thank you Tempest. I am always so skittish these days of saying or doing the wrong thing – like posting an off topic comment. I am beginning to post more on CL and it is helping me enormously. Thanks again.
Spot on Capricorn. Your last paragraph especially resonates with me. Actual affairs went on for at least 8 years before DDay. Then, after a few months of marriage counseling, he wanted to know why I wasn’t “getting over it” faster. Do you ever “get over” 8 years of betrayal?
Just in awe of you decades chumps, your kindness, your positive attitude and ability to carry on being such generous people. You are a gift to us here!
Capricorn,
I learned many years after the fact that he was a serial cheater. I have been asked if maybe it was a bad call on the part of the single person who had this info to tell me. What they dont realize is that I prayed for Truth to be revealed…it was MY Truth and I needed and deserved to know it. I wonder what I would have done if I had known earlier I will always wonder that.
Your comment: “The longer infidelity goes on, or the length of time it takes to discover a past infidelity the greater the harm to the chump. As that point marks the spot where your loved one decided to throw you under the bus for their jollies. And became an imposter and a liar in the relationship. Everything changed at that point and so the harm increases as time goes by.”
hmmmm that is quite a big thought to consider..its probably true – folks like me & Dixie chump who were cheated on for decades have a lot of stuff to process. The basic foundations of our marriages we thought existed were not what we thought they were. I loved the comment the other day that our whole lives werent lies the cheater was the lie…but I was functioning with a Christian model of marriage…that I needed to live with my priorities being: God, spouse, children, myself then everything else…eery day of my life for 26 years I placed him as the highest priority on earth and he was fucking around.
That would have been good to know
Yes, it would have been good to know. I don’t even know how long I was married, because in my view it was over the first time he pulled his pants down for the other guy. I’m pretty certain I was married through the length of the honeymoon …
I now view myself as single rather than divorced, because I really wasn’t married long enough to use the other title.
Even a short relationship is painful when they screw you over and abuse your trust. You are spot on that it really never was a marriage to the other party but it was to you. It is good that you found out and got to end the lie before you invested a lifetime in it. I blew off the warnings and reality hit 28 years later.
I was legally married to him for over 30 years and committed to him for 32 years. But yes, I would never make light of someone being cheated on after “only” a short time together. Betrayal is very painful no matter the time frame.
I was cheated on only 3 years into my marriage. I found out from Gaslighter’s best friend, when the best friend hit on me. I was devastated. Gaslighter said it was a 1 night stand, and a huge mistake that would never happen again…. We went to marriage counseling, but in truth something died in me. Another night stand when I was about to leave for Italy for 3 months to live my dream as a young fashion model. He said he was afraid I would never come home, and he wouldn’t wait for me. I stayed in the US. Became a successful artist instead. More therapy. We rebuilt the trust, he did and said all the right things, and I though we were happy. Fast forward 3 decades – raised 2 great kids, had a big full life. When financial lawsuits started. I found out I was being sued too, because he had made me CFO of his company without my knowledge (I’m an artist NOT a corporate CFO) Things really went sideways. He promised he had done nothing wrong and being the trusting Long Time Chump, I actually believed him stood by him! Until I learned that he was indeed a Cheating Unscrupulous Businessman. Our first Atty actually said I was Mrs Madoff! (On a tiny scale). Married 36 years, together 38, when He said just one detail too much ( having an early breakfast with a client and the vice President of a national Bank. But it was Sunday. And Monday was Martin Luther King Day? That didn’t make sense, I called BS, and completely unsuspecting me found out about widow Schmoopie. He promised to end it, told many lies about the time line (6 weeks?) I checked our long text history and in hindsight could tell it has been going on at least 18 months (when his phone had “died”, or it was in his truck, or he was working late…) Did he Love her? He “Really liked us both”. With that, I was done. There was no going back. He begged. I filed. Bye bye. Over the nearly 3 years since I have learned about many many other women, 1was even a close friend from years ago. Another a former tenant. He was even trying to pick up on soccer moms when our youngest was 6 or so. Why at Christmas was there a picture of a stripper on his phone? He was trying to “council her”. And the photo of a woman all dressed up in his pocket on Thanksgiving? He had “no idea” Hadn’t worn that shirt in years…. WTF!!! I finally, through the right therapist trained in pathological Love Relationships learned who/what I had really married to. A major Antisocial (sociopath) Psychopathic Narcissist. Lucky me. I hit the trifecta! This monster disguised himself as a handsome, brilliant, charming adoring husband and father wasted 38 years of my life. Blew it the fuck to smithereens. All while pretending to be a loving loyal family man. But he found his next mark. A widow with an elderly multi millionaire daddy. She has been warned by people, but she things he’s her Prince Charming. Can’t wait t see how their fairy tale ends.
longtimechump –
I am so sorry you had to go through victim-blaming on top of the deep pain of betrayal. If you haven’t done so already, please downgrading these Switzerland friends to mere “people you used to know” that might get a Holiday card from you when Xmas falls on Feb 29.
What you describe from your X is as heartbreakingly painful as it is common. I encourage you to read “why does he do that?” from Lundy Bancroft as well as CL’s book if you haven’t done so already. You might also watch “20 signs you are with a cover narcissist” from Spartan Life Coach.
Find a therapist that specializes in psychological abuse recovery, try a few and see who you feel is understanding your needs best, I tried three before I found a no-nonsense one that I like working with.
It is a long road, but one that you are not traveling alone, please use the forums and read comments and the archives for extra support from CN.
Chump Change, Dixie Chump, Unicornnomore – I am totally blown off with your courage! When I found out in January, I kept grieving and crying non-stop for months, while he continued to lie and minimize. I thought, 12 years of history was gone. I got rid of all the pictures, took away the marriage ring, and thought my life was finished. I am in my early forties. While I still am not sure if I can trust again or even be interested in a relationship again, I follow your posts and I am filled with respect and admiration. 30+ years of marriage and you were able to say no to abuse.
We lived in two different countries in the past 6 years seeing each other twice a year. Our relationship was strained, but I was (and am?) still very much in love and hoping we could work it out. When DDay happened, so many people around me told me that it was quite natural for a handsome and healthy man in his mid 40s have a sex life because he was separated from his wife on an extended basis. They kind of justified his behavior making me feel inadequate. As if I should have just resigned to this and accepted the fact. It’s normal! I still could not wrap my mind around that. The life in separate countries was very much his choice, and he came up with millions of justifications of why we should continue this (things like my career, need to wait for a little longer to receive a citizenship, son’s school and adjustment issues in one country, while him being in another country taking care of family properties (BS excuse) etc). But then the second DDay when I discovered that the real first time happened not when we started a separate life but in the second year of our marriage. And there were multiple affairs. One long-term…(15 years), others just sex-flings. So I turn to those people that justified a healthy man’s need for a sex life and ask them what about those years we were just married? I thought, happily married?
This is when he made his first cruel decision to discard my feelings and dwell on his only. He kept repeating to me that if I submitted to his will, and followed his rules, then I would be ok. I did it for all this time. Not any more.
I still admire your courage and vision. I don’t know if I would be able to do it after 30 years or would just succumb to the chump-misery.
Dixie, I had no idea you were married for 30 years. You beat my whole relationship time. So we both spent a lot of time trying to make a relationship work that was doomed. We didn’t even know it or spackled over it. I spackled almost from the beginning. Doing a lot of work to make sure it never happens again! I’m not even sure i’ll attempt another relationship. Ever.
Awww don’t say ever. No one deserves true love more than someone who has been through such a shit storm. You and I just need to use all our new-found and hard-earned wisdom to pick better (or God forbid leave sooner) next time. Otherwise, they continue to screw us over for the rest of our days. Choose happiness, whatever that means to you.
Capricorn, you are very sweet. Personally, I refuse to view the last 30 years as “lost” because that hands over too much importance to ex. I would certainly have preferred to have married better! But during those 30 years I finished college and grad school, had an interesting and successful career, started a family, made many friends, owned many beloved pets, and so on. I was very happy (if deluded!) most of that time. And going forward? Soooo much more to do and experience in this life! No one asshole is going to dictate whether I am happy or not in this life. And that is true for every single one of us. As Bluto said in Animal House …. LET’S DOOOOO IT!!!
Absolutely this. I was married for 34 years. . Much the same-‘2 wonderful kids a career home and frienships all made my life rich and full and I thought my husband lobed me. He can’t take away the good memories and I will make new ones in my cheater free new life..
I agree. I dont count those thirty years a waste either. Lots of fun and happiness i thought i was golden. I had a false sense of security. I was happy til the mask dropped. I said before he knew who he was from the beggining and never said a word. My biggest regret the pod gave me no choice to say no and walk away from the start, the pod made that choice for me. I detest having choices made for me. My other regret not throwing the pod out the moment i found out and removing his business to the road. The pod wants to be friends, the pod wants to date me when the pods got multiple sex slaves. The pod doesnt kniw he in for the conversation he doesnt want to hear tuesday night. I will get closure and meh. Because after wednesday for the pod this girl is a ghost. Fucking pod!
Dixie.
I agree that being betrayed hurts. But I feel that what you and unicornomore went through hurts worse because it was for so long.
I have four years lost to infidelity. You have a lifetime. It makes a difference because of your life story. We all create a narrative of our lives to make sense of the world and ourselves. How much harder to do if it has all been based on lies and deception.
My hat is off to you both. Such strength and generosity in the face of such emotional/psychological/spiritual insult is remarkable and awe inspiring.
So I feel that chumps who have been deceived for very long periods of time can rightly see themselves as defined by the ethical loving people they continue to be from that point of discovery. That is true strength of character. A true mark of integrity.
To recover and thrive afterwards? Respect ladies ! ??
Sorry to hear your friends’ stupid question. Allow me to rephrase:
Would you rather know your spouse, or not know your spouse?
Cheater apologists insist that, somehow, sharing a life with someone involves the latter, not the former.
I’m in a mellow philosophical frame of mind. How about some quotes?!
This topic reminds me of people who have said to me (to my face and you can tell how kind I am as they are still walking around and breathing…). Ignorance is Bliss. Hmmm
“If ignorance is bliss then you must be orgasmic.”
“You ignorance is their power”
“The short term pain of accepting the truth is better than the long term pain of believing an illusion.”
It’s all about power. Who has it and who doesn’t.
Capricorn, talk about ignorance! Or rather, inability to perceive that they are capable of treating us so horribly. Last year, while vacationing together, we were standing outside of a hotel after a night out and there was some commotion happening. I was sooo happy we just were together (rarely happened) that all I cared for was us having some quality time. And then I turned around and asked what was happening. He gave me a very long and hard look and told me something I did not quite understand back then. He said, “I can’t believe you did not get it. Don’t you see what is happening around you? If I wanted to cheat on you right here and now, I would have been able to pull it out.” Apparently, people were getting out of the club and then disappearing into some privacy here and there in pairs. Most of them had just met, we were part of this group of people that got together for a concert and introductions were made right there. And 1.5 hrs some were not strangers anymore. Well… I still did not get it and he just took my face in his hands and said, “ooh, you are so naive, I can’t believe it!”. Talk about the contempt…D Day happened about 10 days after…
Was it my ignorance or, rather, living in denial? Things were not perfect, we were never soul-mates, we had quite a number of disagreements, I always felt uncomfortable around him but I got myself used to that feeling of a mini-storm in the gut area. In the past few years he agonized me with getting more and more distant, criticizing, complaining that there was no chemistry between us, that he was looking for love, that if he had found love he would have moved on, withholding sex all my life together. He BS’ed me about 5 years earlier when I found a hotel booking for two and I believed him. He always shut down his computer when I entered the room. He would take the phone into the bathroom and spend hours there whispering. Did I ever dare ask who was he talking to? Never, in the 12 years of our life. Because the answer would be, it’s none of your business, don’t stick your nose into my private affairs. Mind your own business. And I minded my own. And I learned to shove it in. And I learned to wait for the bone with some marrow occasionally and was happy when I got it.
Now, suddenly, he discovered that the chump has a voice. She can speak! She can express disappointment, frustration, resentment. She can say “My way or highway” the way he said before. Oops! Tactic change needed! That’s when he confessed. 5 months after continuing to gaslight and lie to me after DDay. And in every subsequent lie, the chump me still tried to find bits and pieces of truth to cling onto. Maybe, just maybe, he is right and all this is happening in my head – something that he diligently tried to instill in me all this time.
So glad to have found this site.
p.s. on a business trip now for a week and all I can do during the day is to check the posts. Even when I run to a bathroom from a meeting. Is this another addiction?:)
Longtime.
I check this site every free minute too! It is a benign addiction I think for now when we are in crisis and not knowing what the truth of anything is.
Your narc sounds especially nasty and contemptuous. I don’t think you were living in denial I expect you were like most chumps and did not know there were people like this in the world. It’s so foreign to us that even now when I know what a liar mine is I do the same of trying to find the odd bit of truth to hang on to!! Imagine how he will feel when you start to sing with that voice and all he gets is grey rock.
Luck and hugs to you!
Our ignorance IS their power.
Cheaters approach orgasm the more they can pull the wool over our eyes. And no wonder they devalue us; they think we’re stupid–“ha ha, cheated on my chump, left a few subtle clues, and he/she still can’t figure it out because of his/her naivete. I have utter contempt for this trusting soul; what can I say to further knock the stupid chump?”
In addition to the betrayal itself, the contempt my X had for me still eats at me. It’s what prompts me to have those expletive-laden dialogues in my head with him, what still motivates me to want to push him off his balcony. How DARE he openly flirt and have affairs in full view of our friends. How DARE he slam the computer down when I would walk in the room because his latest adult website skank had emailed to set up a sex meeting.
Even two years out, my weeks have double-Mondays (never Tuesdays)–both because of my X’s behavior, and because of society’s minimization of infidelity. Viva la Chump revolution!
Viva la chump revolution, indeed.
My ignorance certainly gives Match Girl a power orgasm. Yuck.
You needn’t be civil EyesWideOpen. Gray Rock with kids means you don’t have to speak a word, all communication is in writing and via lawyers. Un-chump yourself and serve him some piping hot consequences.
Tempest – ‘At least my cupboards stayed closed, unlike my X’s zipper.’
That was funny.
I’m on the snoring thing lately.
I guess I flunked the marriage material test because I snored.
(and did for 36 yrs – shame on me)
Tempest,
I so agree and empathize how hard it is to heal from their contemptuous acts. So true. I do think their contempt and *resentment* are partners in crime.
In my marriage, what I discovered – and what turned out to be a pivotal point in my healing – is the resentment she had towards me was an illusion based on inaccurate AND fallacious thoughts. Her resentment towards me wasn’t even based on ANY negative actions on my part? Her resentment was faux. This is how she justified her cheating.
The gift of time allowed me to absorb this truth – this whole truth – and this nothing but this truth. The truth is now instilled in my mind and soul. I can’t wait for tomorrow….
….tomorrow is Tuesday, treat yourself to a day of serenity. 🙂
SureChumpedaLot–I’ll work on that serenity thing [but I’m a Leo–very dangerous for X to have insulted my pride ; )].
And their ‘resentments’ toward us, even if warranted, are based on such miniscule equivalencies that I doubt they themselves can believe them. Some of the excuses cheaters have given, “I cheated because you never got over your GF from 20 years ago.” Huh? My X claimed he cheated because I’m not as minimalist as him and cupboards were too full. Huh? [My X’s former wife was very neat & minimalist, and yet he cheated on her.] They pull excuses out of their a** to justify their behavior. They manufacture resentments (some that the chump had never heard about until AFTER the affair is discovered).
Your X’s resentments toward you were not only faux, but post-hoc attempts to minimize the cheater’s poor impulse control. And then the cheater doubles down on those substandard explanations for how “marital problems” drove them to cheat. And members of society believe them. Monday, redux.
Tempest, my cheater is a Leo. One of the arguments he keeps bringing up when there is no more justifications left is exactly that. “I am a Leo. The king of the jungle. I can do whatever i want. If you want to be part of my jungle you have to accommodate.” This was his response to all my pleas before DDay like please stop outright flirting with women or stop skyping with ex-es who are “just friends”. Oh and another one after DDay when supposedly reconciling and me telling him that sleeping with others is crissing the red line for me (sometimes you have to explain to poor things as they don’t know it goes without saying), he said “I am the Leo. You don”t tell me what I can or can’t do. You just talk abt yout boundaries and I will make the royal decision.” Talk about the inflated pride…
Yeah, some Leos are assholes. (I promise you I’m not! )
“Messy cabinets” Tempest – “You cant have any pudding if you dont eat your meat! Stand still laddy”
At least my cupboards stayed closed, unlike my X’s zipper.
“Messy cabinets? You naughty Tempest! Then you shall have no pie.” – Mother Goose
Messy cupboards, you say? Hmmm. Well, you never mentioned THAT before. Hmmm. Nope … cheating still not okay!
Haha Tempest, a Leo, I totally understand that. That’s a great attribute though.
Ahhh “equivalencies” – false or miniscule – or unequivocal – are part of their persona. So true, just as their manufactured resentments as you state.
It’s like they all read it from their playbook….“Twas the Night Before Cheating”. And yes, the cheaters poor impulse control has its own chapter in this playbook. You know the truth!
I’ll go for a Tuesday Redux.
Oh wow, how well put. Double-Mondays indeed! I’d heard of a month of Sundays, but this is getting ridiculous…
Tempest.
Yes to all you wrote. The contempt is hard to stomach.
What gets me to boiling point in nanoseconds is knowing that he knows he can trust me. He can use my good nature and kindness and fairmindedness to his advantage.
First during his affairs he knew I trusted him 100%. He knew I would be doing a great job of taking care of house, job and children. He knew when I was depressed I would recover. He knew I would keep going with a tiny injection of fuel into the relationship.
After I found out he knows I will continue to be a good mom and not turn the boys against him. He knows I will not be unreasonable in the divorce settlement. He knows I will endeavour to be civil. He knows I am a decent person.
I lay awake sometimes just wishing I didn’t have such bloody good ethics!
But what is the point. They are just wired wrong. It really isn’t fair.
After I discovered my X’s affair, I believed the narrative that although my X betrayed me in the worse way a spouse can betray his/her spouse, I could set that aside and we could do that “conscious uncoupling” thing for the sake of our kiddo.
Then I got evidence that he was trying to mindfuck my lawyer. He is a master manipulator with that vulnerable poor sausage routine on his deceptive word salad. I shared proof with my lawyer of his deception, and she really got my back from that point on. We both realized what he meant by fair was in fact leaving me with as little as possible. Shit got really expensive, I made concessions, but got a workable divorce avoiding court (where he would have played the system beautifully probably for years and would have over-spent me with gusto).
In the shit show of my divorce process, I stopped talking to him, I set up an interface for our kid logistics, and went complete grey rock. No longer making his life easier, no longer finding excuses for why he would let our kiddo down felt weird for a long time, I was so used to compensating for his short-comings. No more. I focus on my time with our kiddo and sing like a canary to our friends about the fact that I divorce him when I found out that his extra-curricular activities included fucking a gradwhore half his age.
Being court-ordered to share custody of a young kid with a cheating lying coward is a special kind of twisted life lesson though, my shit sandwich buffet turned out to be of an all-you-can-eat variety!
But every time I am about to get baited, I remember one of the many things I have learned through CL/CN – “the loudest fuck you to a Cluster B is silence.”
So I keep going, unchumping myself one day at a time!
Love this! The loudest fuck you to the disordered is silence. So true!
Yes this and I likely got screwed many times because I was so damn reliable. I think it was also a factor when he bought life insurance that he didn’t have to make any stipulations .. he knew I would handle everything properly and I did… I paid off all my & kids debts, I paid off the house and put it in my name alone. I invested the remainder and kept my job…he was right..I could be trusted
The traitor grilled me about my past, whether I’d always been faithful (yes) been cheated on (yes), got heaps of info about me and evidence of how reliable and predictable I am. I am well known for being 100 reliable professionally too. I am certain now that this made me an ideal target and he was testing to see how easy it would be to fool me. 9 years of total reliability followed. So reliable the traitor and his whore left me in charge of their kid while they were cheating…They really had me figured out. And I might as well have worn a big old sign saying “I am a Chump” when we first met.
If I ever date again I will make sure I hide this side of me to avoid being targeted by this type.
Capricorn, agree with everything you just said. The more trustworthy we are, the more they take advantage of it. That’s what gives me criminal fantasies.
Capricorn, this is my situation exactly. It sometimes makes me think I’m letting him continue to “chump” me even though we’re not together anymore. But I keep reminding myself that I’m not going to let his cheating and lying behavior change the kind of person I am, and that since we’re still in the beginning of the divorce process, I don’t want to jeopardize his cooperation in our settlement negotiation. So I am civil with him in my daily life, and either journal the sadness, hurt and anger, or share it with safe friends and family.
Capricorn. Exactly this!
This is a post I can relate to. My ex confessed to 2 of the 4 affairs that I know of affairs. Both times I found out during reconciliation that he was going to be exposed by the affair partner or someone who knew.
One was 4 years and when I called to blow her doors off she told me she wasn’t the first and he had an affair with her friend before her. When asked why he didn’t tell me about that affair he said he forgot…..true story.
IMO, it doesn’t matter if it’s one time or over many years, the second somebody crosses that line and puts your physical health and trust at risk the relationship is over.
I tried to reconcile for a loooong time and it was always just there…..so we’re the other women.
Glad I’m out…..he left me but I feel pardoned by the governor and happy that he ended up with “the friend before the 4 year affair partner”. They hooked up AGAIN ( or still, who knows) while we were married and he left for her.
Good riddance, they are both trash.
Cheating is a choice it isn’t committed by accident, oops, I tripped, lost consciousness and woke up naked in a hotel room with the babysitter. Cheating is the ultimate betrayal of trust to the person who you promised to love and cherish till death do you part.
How can anyone say with a straight face that Cheating solve problems in a marriage?
Cheaters aren’t cheating to save their marriage it’s a choice scumbags make as an act of revenge, entitlement and selfishness.
Mature adults discuss their differences they don’t cheat, if the relationship isn’t working after genuinely making an effort to solve your differences then you divorce.
Cheating isn’t justified because you’re had an argument with your spouse.
Sounds to me this is another weak excuses for Cheaters.
X went on a business trip to Reno when he came home I decided to take his jacket to the cleaners. While emptying the pockets I found a hotel receipt for porn movie rentals.
He adamantly denied that he rented these movies. Then X became enraged and accused me of snooping.
Then accused me of trying to embarrass him in front of our son. We were in an upstairs bedroom our son was downstairs.
After that incident before X would leave on a business trip X make the comment that he would be paying cash while he traveled.
Being Chump I ignored his remarks pretending I didn’t know what he meant.
I now know that during the six months that I thought my wife was having an emotional affair (before I left her), the affair was actually physical. It was my chump stupidity, when I first saw evidence of the affair, to assume that it was only emotional and to approach her about addressing this issue.
Not once during the ensuing six months was her continued deception out of any concern for my well-being. In fact, she wrote to me once during that period that I “had no idea how much [she] was suffering right now.”
I said it during her affair, and I said it afterwards to her family and friends. It’s a lesson I learned as a young child:
Deception is not a problem-solving tool.
And how much would she care if at any point I told her how much I’ve suffered as a result of their affair? Exactly as much as she cared about your suffering, or anyone else’s for that matter: not at all.
Skankboy told me on dday that his ex wife cheated on him. I said “you did to me what Kathy did to you?” Dead-eye stare. Idiot!
I am sure it was his skanky ass that cheated on her….God, rest her sweet soul. She was the one that asked for the divorce.
When I was having one of the last blow up conversations with my cheating whore after she moved out she actually told me “I don’t think you really ever got over ______” my girlfriend before we met..25 years ago! It was a pathetic attempt to blame shift and justify her fucking the family friend in various motels (I saw the receipts on her bank statements, he’s such a loser she actually had to pay)…she explained those away too with some lame excuse, it was an exercise in futility at that point even having conversations with her. NC has been my savior.
She had to pay? What a cumdumpster.
Just proves that they lack real intelligence! They can’t even come up with an excuse other than you did it first which is false. You took my toy so I took yours as payback! There minds are stuck in childhood!
Exasshole accused me of cheating with my previous SO after I caught him too. Same play book.
Ridiculous huh? When she lobbed that accusation at me I was literally dumbfounded..had no idea where that came from and hadn’t even thought of my ex girlfriend in almost quarter of a century! Too busy raising kids etc…it was after finding this site I realized this is just par for the course with these cheaters, their little brains churning away all kinds of excuses for blowing up the family
It helps when they do this, usually this is the clincher, you just HAVE to realise they are full of shit they project on you when they do that. At this point it gets so ridiculous that even the chumpiest chump has to see what is going on. In a way, that’s when they throw us a lifeline, when the bullshit just gets too STOOOOPID!
Maybe she’s never really gotten over her X and is blame shifting.
I was speechless when X said as he left “you never loved me.”
It was said so I would question myself and think I wasn’t good enough, I failed,
if only I had worked harder,
I was a devoted wife and mother.
Clearly they know their own tricks best..,
I would never Cheat but if I did (alien abduction, hypnosis) I would be feeling a tremendous amount of guilt and remorse. The last thing I could be is nasty to someone
who I betrayed and especially knowing they loved and trusted me.
This is an example of their mindset “you had no idea how much she was suffering right now,” no regard to how her behavior is affecting you.
We have all suffered from Chump mentality ignoring the obvious, avoiding confrontation and assuming they have our best interest at heart. The biggest Chump mistake is thinking they think like we do.
Which I am guilty of.
In our defensed they lead us to believe they think like us.
One of the few texts I received from Match Girl before she started the silent treatment read: “thanks for never giving a shit about me!” ?
Hi Ian,
You come across, at times, as harsh. Were you this harsh before your wife slept with another man? Were you sarcastic or snarky with MG?
And, do you think there is a chance that she believed, on some level, you did NOT give a shit about her?
The reason why I bring it up is this: Many people on this site give these cheaters far too much intellectual credit. They are not MENSA material. I believe that many of them have thought processes like a toddler or a cave man. Me hungry. Want cookie. Me want to fuck. Me horny. Not that simple…but you get the idea. Just an Id walking around. More. Now. Fill me up.
My X (The Putrid Prince, new name I created) genuinely believes he is the wronged party. He does not engage in any self reflection. He was not a scheming Machiavellian mastermind. Just a low impulse control dumb ass who is pathologically selfish. Was he sorry? In some extremely limited vague, self pitying way. He is just not a person capable of deep introspection- he is not smart enough, is lazy and does not care.
If you can think of MG, or anyone here in pain, the CHEATER…as just a dumb criminal, someone who would snatch your purse or vandalize your car, or even stab you- does that make it feel less personal?
Because, I think there is something to that which could be healing.
Remember this: MG is not giving you the silent treatment. She just does not give a shit about you any more. Period. She is done. Same with The Putrid Prince. If they wanted to be around us, they would be beating our door down. We were chumped. Then dumped. You have said one and done….but you are not done. You are still here…one year out. Still in knots. Still tangled up with this woman who clearly wants nothing to do with you.
Reliving this trauma over and over and over.
See? They are not playing a game. We are not on their minds. Perhaps maybe for money. Or as a last play back up plan. We are playing tennis by ourselves. We are on the court alone.
Perhaps if you take away that power, that she is a crafty, powerful schemer….no- just a dumb greedy cunt- it makes it sting less.
Try and reframe it like that, and MG is not the Great and Powerful Oz, doing things to you. She has power, you are a victim. No-She is just a garden variety whore. Find them in any Red Light District.
Dear Bumblebee- the first two paragraphs of your comment to Ian are completely uncalled for- if you want to cast aspersions, fuck off and do so on some other site.We will all work through our grief, our betrayal, our PTSD in our own sweet time, depending on the amount of shit we had to wade through.And CL has already covered your argument about not trying to ” unravel the skein” so thanks but no thanks for your insight. There are a bucket load of people here whose stories resonate with me and whose grit and determination inspire me- you are not one of them. You write as if you are very self involved- if you aren’t, you might need to work on that, because you’re coming across as obnoxious.
Well said for anybody who: ‘when you cast aspersions on someone, you are questioning their abilities or doubting them.’ Dictionary Term.
Since you appeared to be a new member of this group of which I’ve been part of 3 yrs or more, I thought it seemed like you ‘knew’ Ian from before.
In fact, it all makes me paranoid that somebody will show up here with too much information about me and it could be the X.
C R E E P Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyB_7LdRh6c
Don’t sweat it, SheChump. It’s just Sylvia up to her tricks. She was Ms. Bojangles yesterday. SheChump – as a rule, don’t email with links like the spam on here the last few days. Even emailing them can get you on a spam list that will send you malicious links and dangerous emails. You are fine; your ex is not here. And as a rule of thumb, don’t open attachments you aren’t already expecting, or click on password reset links in emails you didn’t request yourself. (Just good internet hygiene.)
Maree – she’s who has been playing hide and seek with you too.
Sylvia sure does dislike us because she comes around every day to tell us.
Chump Nation will love her until she can love herself.
Well, thanks Ian.
I also had a funny feeling it was Sylvia because you get used to a certain style of writing.
She has a lot of great advice, and I agree that her writing style is wonderful.
I’m not sure why she would be spamming our site – I, for one, DID contact that guy.
Yup, I fell for it.
I just don’t get it, but I’m with you, we’ll keep loving Sylvia until she starts loving herself.
Well said.
Howdy, SS:
I will give you the benefit of the doubt because you are always so nice to Maree and SheChump. If you were trying to get my goat you succeeded. I have been the same persona here for the last year. You on the other hand have come and gone as different people. I hope you will continue to drop in. You are an excellent writer, a deep thinker, and a shitposter extraordinaire. You also like to pick fights.
The truth in your response is that I am indeed stuck. I have heard in the past week from a lot of chumps that I am being negative. I’ll cop to that. I made a point on a day I don’t think you were here that although we all share a common betrayal there is a vast difference in the many stories here. You weren’t married to J, so you have been able to go no-contact. I don’t have kids, so you and I have that in common. But I have had my worldview upended. You fell in love with a rich drug-dealing asshole. He treated you like shit and bailed. You have a drug habit you are trying to manage, and I saw that months ago in you. That’s a pretty common story sadly. Bad boy hurts good girl. One need only read the posts for a day to see bad girl hurts boy is much less commonly represented. And primary-bread-winner girl hurts equally-skilled boy in non-traditional childfree relationship? Not so common.
I have years of experience in support groups.Part of the process in support groups is helping the newcomer. A lot of people see it as war stories. It’s typically characterized here as bitterness. I get it. Some people come here, get what they need, and move on. Good for them. Some are sicker than others. Part of my harshness (which I never, never used with MG – I adored and bolstered her every career move and constantly flattered her) is theatre. I trot out my worst experiences for the newcomer. It’s helping, and I know because people tell me. MG wasn’t just a greedy dumb cunt. She is a greedy brilliant cunt. Do you really think I would marry a dummy?
You play by your own rules here, and I don’t call you on it. Again, I think you have my best interest at heart. I fear for my anonymity and don’t want to thread-jack this site, so I hold back. Nevertheless, I enjoy my time here, and I am going to keep embarrassing myself and spilling my guts until I am healed.
Ian
I objected to the bumblebee post for three reasons. First it sounded judgy about your anger as if that was a reason your partner cheated and that’s BS. Second because there was that assumption that there is some specific time limit on healing. In my experience as a therapist it is the clients belief that they are somehow not healing ‘properly’ or are ‘stuck’ which causes a great deal of unnecessary trauma on top of the initial trauma. Third because to see narcs etc as just criminal and say that there behaviour isn’t personal is just plain wrong. You were not in the wrong place at the wrong time or just a victim of an opportunity crime. These people deliberately and often accurately sniff out chumps and gaslight and deceive them with skill and precision or through blunt force or a combination.
My mother was a psychopath. I don’t know anyone who believes she can be that bad. There is a predisposition to think of mothers as ‘good’ or not intentional in their harm. ‘She loves you really, she doesn’t know how to show it, she’s your mother! ‘ are all I get. I gave up. I know what she is. Other children of psychopaths know it. I will never ‘get over it’ but am ok. I am recovering from the chumping. I have happiness and my boys and stuff. But that wound is not one that heals.
I live with it.
Gee – I’ve never thought Ian’s posts were every harsh nor full of anger. Did I miss something? More often I find he’s funnier than hell. He’s a very valuable member of this club who supports so many chumps with his wisdom and welcomes so many newbies. So, I just don’t know where that was coming from.
Ian, I thought your response was very mature and reserved and very well stated.
The one thing confusing to me is why anybody would be signing on as somebody else time and again. Not sure what purpose that serves, but again, maybe I’m missing something. I married a Chameleon.
And I like your anger. I am often unable to express mine. I find yours helps me (but if you don’t feel angry that’s ok!). I think I am ‘odd’ for not being able to express my anger or bitterness of which I have lots right now, as I have every reason to be angry. So. That’s all I have to say about that.
Clap clap clap!! Ian has been a valuable member of CN for a year; usually he’s supportive, often he is very funny, and sometimes he is angry, as he has a right to be given what’s happened to him. What he always is, is a valued member of this community.
Bleed away, Ian, we have your back.
+ 1.
Bumblebee
I just wanted to add that cheaters, narcs, cluster b’s may not be emotionally intelligent or aware BUT they are cunning and street smart and master manipulators. They have honed their instincts about people over years and are in their own way human experts. The best the covert narcs are very hard to spot, to resist and to fend off.
They can spot a chump a mile away and have great skill in knowing how far to push, how to push, where the soft spots are. And they are dangerous to the mental health of ‘normals’. Taking longer than 2 years to recover from their comprehensive abuse is the norm. Some people spend many years recovering.
They are super smart predators which is why no contact and grey rock are the only things that work.
They may look like toddlers emotionally but these are weaponised toddlers.
Absolutely! A sly crafty toddler with the strength of a thug and a relentless commitment to their own agenda.
The Putrid Prince was hyper aware…if a book was moved 3 inches when he left the room, he noted this. I read this was a common trait amount predators and violent men.
He also had no fear or startle response. Glib and charming. Traits of a sociopath. For the Putrid, I am not sure how much of his super powers he is aware of.
I hope and pray no one every shows him. In terms of walking on a beach, staring wistfully at the surf and digging down into any misery he has ever caused me, his parents or any other human being….never happen.
He lives in the moment, and his own base needs, and that’s it.
wow Bumblebee! Your post resonated a lot with me because I so often see and agree with what Ian has to say.
He and I are obviously stuck because, of course – we’re still here, and I’ll admit it’s not so much as helping others as I like to say, which I hope I do, but it’s also because every single damn column has something that really resonates to me. Healing words. Thankful for them.
But, I wanted to be over the hump of quit thinking about him entirely.
My family is still angry when I bring him up. (it’s been 2 yrs)
I agree with it, but I’m still curious if he’s with her, so I’m still obsessed.
I guess it takes some of us longer than others and I know I need to get busy moving on but the direction is very often hard to figure out.
You’ve lost all those couples you entertained lavishly for 21 years, never to be invited to another function again.
All those Switzerland ‘friends’ really do hurt – so, doing the clean-up on the ‘friends’ list.
You cease to exist in the ‘social circles’, which I wasn’t fond of anyway.
I am lucky because I have a totally clean slate and I am single for the first time in my life with a whole 20-30 yrs left.
I know I want to move on and get the life rolling, but until you can control the triggers and overcome the pain, it’s easy to know you still need this website before you can figure out firm plans. And, if you’re totally at ‘meh’, I’m so glad for the ones who stay here and offer their sound advice.
Thanks to C/N for being here.
I was obsessed as well. I had a high fever today and “slipped”…by coming to this site. 🙂
I have the flu, and I was remembering a time the Putrid Prince tenderly took care of me when I was sick. You start falling down that dangerous rabbit hole.
You are drawn to your Tribe…those who “get” it. The writing is super helpful, and the people are so kind. And their pain leaps out. I want to help everyone.
It is just a holocaust of the soul.
BUT …BUT….
the way I got better was to forcibly STOP researching narcissistic personalities, cheating and my X in general.
When I stopped doing that, my obsession went from a roar to a low murmur, and sometimes silent ( a miracle). This is nothing short of supernatural.
You have to force yourself, like doing a push up, to stop thinking about them. There are no positives to reliving it, again and again and again…not after you have the bottom line.
They shit the marital bed. It made me homicidal. Guess what? He’s not. He is ok. Not obsessed. Not miserable. Has a new woman. Answers the phone with a happy lilt in his voice.
And so, do you know that saying: Begin with the end in mind?
I believe, when we are little old ladies, hopefully warm in our beds (surrounded by dogs!) and death is sitting in the corner….I think will we be heartsick over the time wasted analyzing a cheater over and over. I truly do.
And, I am just as guilty as anyone. But I do believe it is the start of wisdom to STOP analyzing who, what, when, where, why. Once you know, you know. We have to set a limit and then STOP.
I think….we come here because it feels so good to be understood. But I also believe that we think there is going to be a magic post, article or idea that is going to make this more bearable. More understandable. Comprehensible.
There is not.
We just have to move on. I have a fever and this writing is not my best. But, please know that I understand obsession. It is its own peculiar hell. You have to actually reach inside yourself, jerk a knot in your mind and let that mother fucker GO.
Wow Bumblebee, wow. A bit close to the bone for me, but you’re right. Thank you.
Bee – ‘ She just does not give a shit about you any more. Period. ‘
This statement, which I’ve heard a LOT makes me cry every time I read it.
Of course he gives a shit about me.
No, he couldn’t have had a foot out the door for 5 years. His shoes always looked fine…sigh.
He misses me like crazy and wished he could undo everything he did.
(that’s why his long term financial plans were so well played)
I know him better than anybody and I would have taken good care of him in his old age.
I loved him more than anybody could have ever loved another.
I thought I was a good wife. I was super congenial which helped his business social life, easy to get along with, always smiling and kept myself in good shape all thru the years. And, I also held a good job.
His family loved me. I was a very happy woman and he sure seemed happy himself and happy and proud of me.
I’m sure that’s what he misses about me and his life has stalled w/o friends…..and so on and so on.
OK, pop the balloon! Poof – it’s gone.
But, I still wake up everyday thinking I’m married.
“It’s over . . . and nobody wins”. -Leonard Cohen
It is just….horrifying, nauseating, life changing. It is an obscenity. I totally understand. I wish I could fix it for you.
I feel the same way. I would have literally wiped the Putrid Prince’s ass.
But, when I look at his actions, there is no other conclusion. These cheaters go after what they want, right? Consequences be damned. Bulls in china shops. They blow up lives for their own needs.
And so, as we suffer….crickets.
If the Putrid Prince, or your X, wanted to fix it….they would move mountains. They would make 10,000 grand gestures. They don’t.
It breaks me, too. I try to look at it like I was the victim of crime. No reflection on my or YOUR worth. None. Believe that.
One of the things X said to me as he was leaving is “You never loved me.”
What? he’s having affair, he’s leaving our 20 year marriage. Had no interest in going to MC.
Tells me he wants something different.
Then says, “You never loved me” as he’s walking out the door.
Cause hes a pod.
My ex wife said something similar after she cheated and dumped me..after 24 years “it never felt right..”.. NEVER? Took me awhile to absorb that one. Still don’t accept that line but it’s her new narrative and probably helps her sleep at night
That’s bullshit. It felt right for her. And when it didn’t, instead of figuring out was had changed (most often changes in the cheater, not the circumstances), she cheated.
You’re right not to accept that line, Kbchump.
Projection. It means he never loved you. So sorry, Brit.
+1
Sorry Brit, it stinks, been there too.
“You’re very welcome you feces licking whore!”
Yuck
HA HA HA
“Deception is not a problem-solving tool;”
Love this. My stbx still hasn’t learned that most basic life skill. It really reminds me of school age kids when they get caught in a lie and keep lying in the desperate hope they will get out of it.
The good news is once you understand they are not at all sincere it is almost funny to watch them try to sell you their b.s.
JC
Amen to that.
“It’s that very concern — that cheating could be a deal breaker for the chump — that excuses cake-eating.”
The concern that cheating could be a deal breaker for the chump should have been a major factor in the cheater’s decision NOT to cheat. If the cheater really so all-fired concerned about the state of their relationship or concerned about fairness or hell, capable of that kind of introspection, they would have stopped. Pretending that you’re interested in preserving the relationship feels a lot more noble and romantic/tragic than just not doing it in the first damn place.
Yeah, Narkles the Clown tried to call his affair a private matter. He also said this whole thing was between me and him when he asked me not to tell anyone what he did. My response was, no, our marriage is between us and since you brought someone else into it it is no longer just between us. I don’t see any reason to keep it that way since you didn’t.
Everything in the letter above amounts to “consequences are bad” and why deal with them if you don’t have to? (Cake)
Gee, I don’t know, respect? Love? Trust? The things a marriage is based on?
I personally know a woman who received her HIV diagnosis at a routine pre-natal appointment. Her cheating husband knew he was positive and in her state, that’s a felony offense. Sure he went to prison for five years, but she has to live with taking pills and the side effects of those pills everyday. No one will ever convince me, or her, that cheating is not a big deal.
Wow! He deserves a life sentence of hard labor for that. They should ship him off to Russia to deal with! That really sucks for your friend! Health is so important to the quality of our lives. I don’t even know how to express my sympathy for her other than say I pray the remainder of her life is filled with good friends and family. Her story should be what is being told by the RIC, counselors and the media. The worst outcome of cheating and lying!
The “noble lie” bs. It ain’t noble. It is just a lie…by omission.
DM
The ‘noble lie’. Just reading those two words together makes my hackles rise!
There is something here too about truth. CL wrote “truth is the problem, not cheating”.
Perhaps what you could say Also is that it is THE TRUTH ABOUT CHEATING that people get so bent out of shape about. Imagine if infidelity was seen clearly for what it was by the vast majority of people. Emotional abuse. What would happen? All of a sudden very many people would have to examine their conscience for aiding abetting or knowing about their behaviour. Very many people would have to change their opinion about a great many things like financial equality in marriages, the status of women, the treatment of male chumps (financial and custody wise) which is appallingly unfair.
How much better to try to force the Chump to eat that shit sandwich.
It is reminiscent of all the historical sexual abuse scandals. Hide it, shame the victims into silence, deny it, justify it, minimise it. Then get pissed off and defensive when cornered.
We just have to keep chipping away. As Desmond Tutu said “making the truth public is a form of justice. “
That’s truth! There is nothing noble about cheating and lying. They are deception and abuse at the core. Why does society have the we are all bad and make mistakes that need to be forgiven view? Like it or not, some actions are much worse than others. It’s time we call out people for hurting others. If they are truly sorry, there will be repentance and action to right the wrong!
I’m glad I found out. I’m glad I found out he was in fact cheating the entire time we were married. It made me immune to his reconciliation attempts. The stupidest thing he ever said to me was that I should take him back because a cheater makes the best husband. Because NOW they know how much they have to lose and he would appreciate me more. I told him that following that logic I needed to go fuck someone else for 10 years so I could learn to appreciate him.
Excellent reply, NewDay!!
NewDay
This is funny and clever
” I should take him back because a cheater makes the best husband. Because NOW they know how much they have to lose and he would appreciate me more. I told him that following that logic I needed to go fuck someone else for 10 years so I could learn to appreciate him”
I have my STBX saying this to me now. How much I can trust him as he has seen the hurt and damage. I he has only four years of affairs so far confessed to I guess that only gives me for years with someone else to appreciate him!
Unfortunately I don’t think 100 years will be enough.
Now I can appreciate you more. See? That is still about your value to them. What little value thier lazy, self absorbed asses might have had is gone. I mean, they know you are wonderful and now you know they suck.
I read a lot of advice columns and it’s true that somehow cheating gets a pass that no other lie does. This Carolyn Hax column ran a few days ago. A whole lot of people I consider decent on the comment board were in the don’t tell camp because it is selfish. This one is about a one time thing, except the LW doesn’t sound the least remorseful. Here is the column: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/carolyn-hax-the-funny-thing-about-deciding-infidelity-is-okay-is-it-takes-two/2016/11/24/41dd980e-b042-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html
My response to the column didn’t get any likes, I said: Guess the LW is starting her own history of avoiding conflict by lying and omitting the truth. Interesting the difference in opinion about lying in that column vs this one. I cannot wrap my head, or is it my ethics (?) around this strange difference in opinion when someone is lying about cheating vs lying about, well, pretty much anything else.
I read this article and a lot of the comments. Of course, there is the usual drivel, claiming this adultery shit is OK, basically. Well, guess what? Even if every moron on the internet says it’s OK, it will never change the basic fact that it is NOT OK, in any circumstances, for any person. Ever.
It seems that way based on comments, because cheaters have plenty of time to peruse the internet, leaving comments in between watching porn videos.
Those of us actually raising the children, being responsible for a job or performing charity works, don’t have time to sit around reading, much less posting comments, on stupid articles.
Exactly!
Datdamwuf-I read WaPo every day, and I too saw this. I think Carolyn gives terrible advice, and I can’t fathom why people seem to love her so. I think she often downplays/minimizes shit behavior. I don’t even read her comments section, because it tends to have a lot of cheater apologists, with just a few clear dissenters.
Am i glad i found out. Yes. am i glad i found out more lying to this day. Yes. Hurts like hell still but my eyes were opened wide again and again. And again. To know the one person i thought had my back disrespected me beyond the pale and that hurts. But when i got mad really effing mad my plans were set. Took three more years of my life to acheive but wednesday i move away from this house of whores and more importantly away from him the pod. Did you know that there is a rating system of dominent masters for slaves and the slaves and masters list who they are exclusive of and with? Out of 10 asswipe is listed an 8. And currently is listed exclusive master over 5 women on the same site. Should be fun for him in the future. Who knew there was s pecking order. Boy i had a good laugh over that!!! Hey i must be at meh! Cause i dont care!!!! My biggest regret is he knew what he was 30 years ago and took away my choice of saying no thanks and moving on away from him. What a long strange trip its been. I love this site you all saved me and kept me sane and alive. From the bottom of my heart thank you. I will always be here as long as this site is to heal and to help where i can. Wednesday i start anew and when i drive out that gate for the very last time i will stop and get out channel all of you and shake off all the old hurt and pain and left it here in this house off hell. Hey jeep wanna go driving with me!!!!!
🙂 You BETCHA! Call me girl!!! <3
Rock on, may the Force be with you!!
I remember asking cheater a number of “what if” questions, like,
– what if one of his howorkers had reported him and he lost his job
– what if a husband of one of his sluts had confronted him, sued him, told me, etc.
– what if he got and/or gave me an STD
etc., would he have told me the truth then? What a stupid question for me to have asked. Of course his answer was “I would have to tell you” but I know now that he would have lied and blame shifted and I was so sucked in that probably would have believed him. He probably would have said:
– the company was downsizing and he was cut as a result. Or, if I somehow knew about the report – she’s been after me but I said no so she reported me just to get back at me.
– her husband is a jealous man and thinks there’s something going on but there’s not.
– who have you been with? You must have got it from somewhere.
Cheater was such a masterful liar (the therepist’s term) that I know he would have never voluntarily confessed. Even when I figured out he was cheating, he seemed to enjoy withholding the details and trickling out bits and pieces in as hurtful a way as possible. It’s all about control.
I have been waiting years for a confession. However when I told him on D-day “You need to choose between your girlfriend or your family”, he told me he was moving out. That is only confession I will get. Confessing acknowledges he wrecked his marriage and family. If you never acknowledge you screwed up, he can still play the poor, pitiful me, my ex wife is sooooo mean!
My experience is that my cheater’s motto was “deny, deny, deny”. Even when he was caught red handed. The idea that deception is kinder than the truth is BS. My STBX said he believed that what I didn’t know wouldn’t hurt me but throughout our marriage I was in a lot of pain. I struggled to find solutions to our relationship issues when, for decades, he knew the answers and the reasons we were having problems. He made me the scapegoat for a dysfunction that he had prior to our relationship but hid from me. He was a selfish coward. Deception is damaging, much more damaging than the truth. Deception took away my choice. Deception took away my rights and my humanity. It’s very triggering for me now when I sense deception. I still struggle with how to deal with it.
Wow….that nailed it, Dis! Thank you, well said.
“I struggled to find solutions to our relationship issues when, for decades, he knew the answers and the reasons we were having problems. He made me the scapegoat for a dysfunction that he had prior to our relationship but hid from me.”
This is so well stated and mirrors how I felt. How I longed to figure out why I couldn’t connect with my husband, why he seemed to be more comfortable with distance.
My ex wife still denies she cheated. It bothers her so much she even insisted to her hairdresser (my daughter uses the same one) she didn’t cheat before she left..lol..why even bring that up? Image control…she fucking KNOWS she’s a cheating tramp and she left her family for strange dick, and she has to live with that choice and scarlet letter around her neck. My daughter recently told me a good friend of ours for many years, (couples friends as our daughters grew up together and did dance etc…) the friend told my ex she needs to take a break from their friendship as it was too uncomfortable ..apparently my ex texted her a belated happy birthday wish but she wasn’t having anything to do with her. Of course my exes response to this according to my daughter was “I don’t know what the fuck HER problem is…” Again, just cheater head in the fucking clouds. Never their fault and why can’t everyone be HAPPY for them??
Mr. Sparkles has only confessed to what I was able to subpoena.
Seriously… here is what he has denied, all evidence to the contrary:
– Brought back CRABS from our trip to Mexico while dating… um, you know the chances of getting them from bed linens?? (For you doubters – it’s about 1%)
– Had MULTIPLE personal ads online – I had printed copies of them, some from sites I never even knew existed
– Only used AFF for “online affairs”… um, why were you looking for Couples/Groups in your profile
– Never cheated on me – online affairs “don’t count”… and the OW he left me for also doesn’t count because “he knew he was done with the marriage”
– 100s of printouts of emails HE SENT to Craigslist ads, AFF ads, etc… dumbass was too lazy to empty his email TRASH FOLDER
Truth be told… I didn’t want to know for the longest time. But, when things started heading south in the bedroom and I was getting blamed for horrible things like “laying down with baby at night”… I could smell the stink a mile away.
Here we are now… divorce is imminent… 8 YEARS since the first D-day and he still isn’t MAN ENOUGH to own his actions.
Yeah… this is a guy who is going to be better for the next woman? Not possible.
Thank God for CL and CN… and thank God for TIME.
Rock on Chump Nation
When confronted, my cheater was only going to admit to generics via unspecifics suchs as “I made a mistake but its you I love. He pursued me and I was weak, but he doesn’t mean anything to me … blah blah blah”
But from some of the things I read on her phone, I knew she was downplaying everything, but she didn’t want to give up cake or provisions.
I do think that the one out of a thousand case might exist where someone does have a one night stand somehow and truly feels horrible and remorseful and might be better off taking it to their grave and not even telling their best buddy. Emphasis on “might exist” since we’ve seen scant evidence of those cases.
Buddy, my XW was the same, except for the part about saying he meant nothing to her and that she loved me. Or that she was sorry. She confessed, but I suspect that was because AP’s wife had found out after my wife’s name appeared on the title to their family home (LONG story). But my God did she try to get mileage out of “I told you myself!”
She’s lucky you didn’t beat it out of her.
Well gosh … so NOBLE …
Haha. We were both imagining the mythical one-night stand. Doesn’t exist; even if it did I’m not forgiving it.
Is the mistake when she spread her legs? When it was “just the tip?” When he didn’t pull out in time? Is it forgivable because she didnt kiss him? A mistake is forgetting your keys. Only teenagers have one-stroke sex.
Great work, Chump Lady.
I am curious about Ida’s motives.
I also think that confession under duress doesn’t count as confession. I am not a person who is willing to forgive a drunken one-night stand, but apparently some are. Coming clean before one’s partner starts to suspect never happens; it’d be a unicorn of another color.
The advice to refrain from confessing an affair is pretty much standard on all the RIC/infidelity websites.
The underlying argument against confession is this: confessing an affair will have consequences.
Cheaters don’t like consequences, so they love being told that it’s okay to keep the affair secret. Now, if they’re truly contrite, they’ll confess, and they’ll be humble about it. True contrition, as CL has said, operates from a position of humility. A true apology is one in which the person apologizing realizes that the apology itself does not entitle the individual making the apology to forgiveness.
Cheaters know this, but will still try to guilt the Chump into reconciling. It’s the only way that the Cheaters can avoid consequences!
^^^^Boom^^^^
Hey Chump Nation — from your experience of cheaters, what’s a more likely scenario — unvarnished honesty about what they’ve exposed you to, or preposterous excuses?
Preposterous excuses – for the win! They only have one life on this earth, and they deserve to be happy.
I experienced four D-days over the course of five months. She has still only confessed to whatever I uncovered. There is so much more but its all circumstantial. However, I finally gave up my role as the marriage police and simply trust that she’s lying to cover-up her fucking around on me and our family. I trust that she sucks.
It really is a game to the narcissists to figure out what they can get away with; and it’s all at the chump’s expense. I always say the second D-day is the worst. The first time, sure, you’re heart is ripped out of your chest. But our narcissists are able to calmly look into our pleading eyes with a droopy-sadz puppy-dog face and lie their asses off. As chumps, we’re desperate and grasping for any lifeline and buy into their reassuring act. We even accept the blame for forcing them into that one harmless / innocent / unintended little “mistake.” And it calms us for awhile.
Then there’s D-day#2 – after purchasing voice-activated recorders, velcro, PC key-loggers, GPS trackers, credit monitoring, forensic financial accountants, phone spyware, gathering two years of phone records, credit-card statements, paystubs, and hiring three independent private investigators – we find more evidence we knew all along we would find. But now… NOW it’s different… Our narcissists calmly look into our raging eyes with that same fucking droop-sadz puppy-dog face and lie their asses off – again.
It was in that very moment I realized my truth, integrity, self-esteem, and everything that made me an individual has been stolen from me. The cherry on top of this shit sandwich is that I was paying for everything. I’m a chump; and oh hell does it hurt.
I only have one life on this Earth. How is it I don’t deserve to be happy?
“It was in that very moment I realized my truth, integrity, self-esteem, and everything that made me an individual has been stolen from me”
Betrayed, they haven’t been stolen from you, no one can steal that. You have been betrayed, you tried to save your marriage, you checked and policed as you had a right to after a betrayal, but you were loyal to your marriage, you have integrity, you’ve always had it.
It is torture to suffer so many DDays, to have tried so hard for someone who is not worth it, but it only says excellent things about YOU. Don’t beat yourself up like this, please. You are making your pain worse.
You have integrity and honour, loyalty, fidelity. You are a knight.
Betrayed
You do deserve to be happy.
Your post was a bit triggery for me as you are absolutely right that the second DDay is worse. Your mind sees one as maybe a mistake? A fog? Your fault? Midlife? Too much or not enough sex?? Messy cupboards ?? You start to spackle and trust the visible sadness as sadness for what they have done to you. DDay 2 rolls around and bam you know more pain than ever. And their sad looks a bit suspect now. Then DDay 3 for me was when I knew even I couldn’t spackle even the foothills of that shit sandwich.
You do deserve to be happy as do I but how to get there right now is a bit beyond me.
You just decide to be. It really is that simple. There are wonderful things to be happy about every day. Be stubborn. Focus all your attention on the good. When you are ready to stop grieving (which is different for each of us) … make the decision and don’t look back.
I agree … D-Day #2 is the true heart breaker because you realize just what a fool you’ve been. You didn’t know what s/he was capable of before the first time and you desperately clung to those lies you wanted to be true. But the second time? There is no where to hide from the horrible truth.