Dear Chump Lady, My ex denies that he cheated. Others believe it.
Dear Chump Lady,
I am 33 years old and two months post-discovery of my ex-fiance’s affair, which was two months long with a sleazy girl who had nothing to lose. I discovered it through social media. My ex denied, denied, denied — poorly, he is a terrible liar — and tried to silence the affair partner and have her delete photos and tweets (she essentially documented the whole thing on Twitter w/o naming my ex — but it was obvious — and she detailed the sex things they did too).
I didn’t rage or anything; I told him to own it and tell me he was sorry; he refused, since he “couldn’t be sorry for something he didn’t do.” But he DID do it, of course. He kept saying, “You don’t have proof!” I figured it out, I was right, and he got caught. I am one thousand percent certain it happened — NO doubt– and walked away.
Still, my ex stayed denying it to anyone who would listen, and this keeps getting back to me. I’ve started avoiding social situations. (I live in a downtown scene where everyone knows each other.) It makes me feel like my head is in a blender — like he’s handing me a glass of orange juice and insisting it’s blue. Ultimately, it was this behavior that made it easy to walk away. No apology, no remorse, and fucking with my head? Screw him. The breakup has rocked our social circle and been very traumatic for me, though I know I made the right choice.
Matt DEFINITELY wants me back; he is a greedy cake-eater, and I made his life very comfortable. Thus he has been sending messages through people — he is also a coward — and every time I see one of our MANY mutual friends (he is very well-liked and the more social one), they say: “Matt says he didn’t do it.” This has happened with six or seven people. It infuriates me — the head in the blender thing again — and I don’t know what to say. I am SO SICK of hearing “Matt says he didn’t do it.” It makes me FOAM AT THE MOUTH.
I have found myself obsessively thinking of comebacks for hours. That’s why I’m writing you. I just need one line. I don’t want to be rude to the people, and I don’t want to say anything negative about Matt (it would make me look bad). I want to shut it down and not ramble on and get angry. Can you think of a good comeback? I honestly HAVE to stop obsessing over a good one… I am losing hours of my life…every day. I feel like I can’t face people until I am armed with the right words to say. Please help!
Thanks,
C
Dear C,
You don’t need a one-liner. You need an exit strategy from this social circle.
Matt is triangulating others with his gaslighting. When they report to you “Matt says he didn’t do it,” they’re as much as saying they don’t believe you. They Fail to Understand Your Hostility. They’re putting the onus of what Matt did on you, and your reaction to it.
Hey, you just cancel weddings for the sport of it! You must be making up some imaginary slight. Boy you’re overreacting!
These people — these Switzerland friends — have sided, they just don’t want you to think that. So they feign concern. They still associate with Matt. You’re obviously heart-broken, but they live in some alternative reality where Everything Should Just Go Back The Way It Was so they don’t have to rearrange their social calendars or reform opinions.
If they’re going to reform an opinion of anyone — it’s YOU. You’re being irrational!
No wonder you’re furious. Nothing drives a person stark raving bonkers more than having her reality denied.
One liners? I’m sure Chump Nation can come up with some for you. “Didn’t like his girlfriend.” “I prefer to marry Matt monogamously. He wasn’t on board.” Whatever.
But the big picture here is IT DOESN’T MATTER. The people who don’t have your back, who cannot be there for you in a time of great loss and heart break, ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. They’re casual acquaintances. Who cares what they think?
Hang in there, C. You lost a fuckwit and his merry band of losers. Better days ahead.
A very succinct “of course he does” should work.
Truth is there is NO one line that will change his version or their behavior.
It isn’t fair but it is the truth.
True friends will unquestionably belive you; uncaring people are just that.
Find the true friends, make new friends and save yourself years of trying to see the blue in your juice.
This is perfect Rebecca! Thank you!
I think STFU would suffice. I’m from Jersey. This is how we would handle it.
Oh shit that is hilarious! Good one OrlandoMB! I think its perfect and would definitely put a smile on my face and make me feel better as I was walking away from the false friend!!!!! LOL!
I did cover for my cheater npd ex. But then I realized it only hurt me more to see him getting consoled for hurting me and lying. It’s like he got rewarded for being horrible.
My advice is be direct and to the point. Say to them: ‘I really hope Matt gets help for his compulsive lying problem. Please help him as his friend. Because I caught him red handed. I have pictures, proof, the whole nine yards. I’m trying not to blow this girls life up by naming her and showing you all the dirty details. But I will if he doesn’t stop lying. Matt knows what he did. Please let him know if he continues to lie and not get help, I may let you all see the proof. I can’t marry someone with a compulsive lying problem and cheating problem. What’s worse though is how as our friends, he’d even lie to you and trick you. I feel sorry for you too that Matts playing you.”
Though it’s detailed I’d go in full throttle but polite. Make them aware they are also pawns. Perhaps add In “Matt told me of our friends would believe any lie he made up, and not to try and out him, but I’m not ok with covering for him anymore and I know you don’t like what he said about you.”
“I feel sorry for you that Matts playing you too.”
^ That! If you make them to actually think for themselves, then you won the battle.
// , I think that pushes all of the right buttons.
Good one OrlandoMB!
I’m Jersey born & raised how come I didn’t think of that?! That’s the only answer those so-called friends deserve!
FU2? 😉 Seriously, at 52 years old now with the scars to prove I tolerated crappy boundaries and too much BS, “F U” seems nice, succinct, and gets the point across that I am not letting you fuck with me asshole who claims to be a friend.
Mind your own business? Simple, seems like it would work and like CL says, who cares if they are offended – they are a bunch of fuckwits anyway.
He had too many cum receptacles and as his wife of 27 years I bowed out of the equasion.
That they are choosing to become involved in something that is none of their business speaks volumes, drop these losers. If anyone approaches you again, don’t mince words and tell them so.
Really! Why are they even talking about it? Get some new drinking buddies. Better yet, get out of Dodge.
I agree. Go for that physical distance we talked about yesterday.
I always liked Princess Diana’s line about her divorce from Charles: “There were three of us in this marriage (relationship, in your case) so it was a bit crowded.”
Very nice.
very good
This is exactly like my story, he completely denies the affair with howorker even though there is lots of evidence that suggests there was one and his behavior after getting caught showed no remorse in his actions, he went straight into damage control, image protection and blame shifting towards me. Cheater script was followed to a tea and gaslighting to an extreme. My one liner I say to people is simple and clear cut “He had an affair with an Indian up north that he worked with and I’m not into sharing, that’s why I left”. That’s all I say when asked because it’s the TRUTH!
Sounds painfully familar
Same story here… howorker but on the other side of the planet, lies despite clear evidence, gaslighting making me feel like my head’s in a blender, how dare I find condoms in his work bag (how can he trust me after being a snoopy bitch?!)…. . Thank God C found out before marrying the jackass – saved her many wasted years.
listen my H denies as well and I saw he his text messages on his secret cell phone for over a year until she finally dumped him. I agree with Chump Lady true friends would believe you as they would know your are truthful etc… my own inlaws believed me over his lies. I quess I would say “I am telling you the truth you can choose who you believe but don’t defend him to my face again in fact do not even mention his name to me again if you wish to remain my friend”
I know this has happened to a lot of us, this lying despite irrefutable evidence deal. I think this is one sign at just how different these folks are. I am sure most of us have told a lie at some point in life. But, the tenacitg with which a disordered type clings to it is amazing.
It makes you doubt your reality because a normal person just could not do it.
It is like riding in a car with one other person and smelling a fart and then having them deny farting. You know they did it. They kjow they did it. And, they know you know they did it. But, amazingly, they still deny it.
One of my cheater’s favorite lines is “A lie told often and stuck to is as good as the truth.” Yet another red flag in the daily red flag parade that I spackled over.
“Well, what Matt says does not change the hard evidence I have saying otherwise. Does it bother you that he is using you to lie?”
Really, I think the long-term solution is to find another group of friends. These are not “friends.” They are “neutral” at best and how can one remain neutral when your friend has been soul raped? Says a lot about their allegiances and level of true care.
Perfect. I love how it both cites the hard evidence instead of “he said” and shows the “friends” they are being used. “What he says doesn’t change the facts. Does he often ask you to spread lies for him or is this one of the first times? Does it bother you to be used this way?”
I completely agree with Divorce Minister but I’m sure C is overwhelmed at the thought of finding all new friends. Give it time C you will be able to see that is the best thing to do but it may take some time and distance from the situation to see that and that’s OK.
Agreed, Nicole S. I hope C is kind to herself and gives herself time. My concern is how these “friends” are currently not acting like friends. Staying in touch clearly presents these very distressing situations for C and does not help the healing process. I would say focus on the true friends who are not being used as proxies to spread his lies.
Yes among that circle there are one or two who see. Create a new healthy circle with them.
Oh, I like it!
Bingo.
+1
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+4
I would say, “Well of course that’s what he says, because cheaters lie and liars cheat.” Won’t probably change their minds, but maybe, just maybe they will be stunned momentarily by this truth they have never considered.
Absolute disaster averted! Just say “I lost my trust in him” and turn on your heels and move forward to your glorious future.
So many people do not want to believe their “friend” did a terrible thing. So they try to convince you it isn’t true, so they don’t have to change. That works for them.
It can be lonely when you realize you were involved in a sociopath, but give yourself the highest amount of credit and self respect. Your instinct to leave him, however difficult, was very wise. You saved yourself huge amounts of grief. Good on you.
20 years from now, those same “friends’ will say … “I kinda knew something was off about him, but I didn’t want to say anything”.
Go celebrate… you dodged a big one.
Completely agree with CL, and great points Nancy!
C, you are mighty! Keep trusting your gut, keep putting yourself first, and keep refusing to spackle!
“I lost my trust in him” should be more than enough for friends to understand.
If they don’t apologize to you for being too forward or pushy, then downgrade these people to mere acquaintances, give them as little polite attention as possible, and expand your circle of friends with mature people that share your commitment to trust and truth in relationships.
Congratuations on dodging a gigonormous bullet!
My ex’s story is out there as “Champ and I split up. I’m dating Poopsie.” I say, “Yes, but not in that order.”
Love this!
I like this one. Understated but effective.
This is a timely post for me because I am also dealing with someone who cannot seem to admit things. Unlike this somewhat lucky poster, I don’t have concrete proof.. I have a bunch of circumstantial evidence, but no proof like a twitter account or documented communication. I know he called her daily, when I confronted, took it underground, lied to me about seeing/talking to her. I know he sought her out and pulled away from me.
As a chump it’s very hard to deal with the gaslighting when the proof isn’t concrete, or it has been for me. Now my STBX wants to reconcile and doesn’t seem to understand why I don’t trust him. Claiming “I never did this so I didn’t break your trust”. Finally, I broke it down to him this way… and it has helped me orient myself as well, which is what is really important:
“Whether you slept with the whore or not doesn’t really matter. It actually doesn’t. What matters is that you took time and attention away from our marriage, and our family. You let this person come between us. You turned your back on me and turned TOWARD her. Whether you did anything physical or not, that’s really the betrayal. The fact that you could disrespect me that way, you could think so little of me and our life together, that you’d RISK it all for some two bit tramp. That is the issue. Not whether your private parts touched her private parts. It’s the lying, the secrecy and the deception. THOSE are the issues. That’s where the trust was destroyed. I do not intend to EVER tolerate this sort of disrespect in my life again.. from you or ANYONE.”
When I put it to him that way, it shut him down. And it gave me the closure I needed. I was so focused on getting all the information so I could feel okay with the decision I made and I finally realized that doesn’t matter. My feelings are ultimately what matters.
C- it matters not what narrative he spins to try to make himself out to be a “not so bad guy” and it matters not what people think. This is YOUR life. What YOU think matters. To hell with everyone else. I know it sucks.. my STBX’s family is really pushing reconciliation.. and if that doesn’t happen, they will be pissed and me but in the end, it’s not their life. Anymore than it’s my family’s life (who is pushing the other way). In the end, it’s about what YOU think about YOURSELF and your boundaries and what you will tolerate. I’ve had trouble trusting myself too, but in the end I think we have to learn how to.
Have to agree … your 3rd paragraph nails it! It speaks to my exact situation.
Excellent post, newchumpatl. Again, it seems many of us only had circumstantial evidence and it feeds your doubt. But, I suspect few of us are, by nature, paranoid, jealous or suspicious. In fact, I bet most betrayeds are way more trusting than average.
So, it takes pretty strong evidence, circumstantial or not, to get to the point of suspecting our spouses.
That third paragraph says it all NewChumpatl! That is exactly how I felt and the same way my stbx acted. Sometimes the similarities on this blog just blow me away. Once I left and started therapy, I also found out about gaslighting, emotional, verbal and mental abuse. I never thought I would have let myself be subjected to any of that.
C – you need to drop those so called friends and move on. If they are willing to defend him, they will also be willing to share with him what you share with them. Cut all ties and find a better circle of friends. And remember that everyone here has been through what you are experiencing now. We make good friends – we wholeheartedly understand and our hugs are sincere!
Brilliant NewChumpatl!!! “Whether you did anything physical or not, that’s really the betrayal. The fact that you could disrespect me that way, you could think so little of me and our life together, that you’d RISK it all for some two bit tramp. That is the issue. Not whether your private parts touched her private parts.” This is perfect for those cheaters that want to split hairs, and will admit to everything but the actual sex… as if that’s the only betrayal.
My advice for C: I know it’s painful that your friends don’t believe that your x could do such a thing. However, I don’t know that I would write them off (yet). When I think back to how long I was in denial about my cheaters activities it blows my mind. I had to watch him for 2 years… analyze his behavior, and creep on his social media to really understand how disordered he is. When I finally decided to tell my family they were angry, but I could tell they still figured I had failed in some way that contributed to his cheating. It was PAINFUL. I knew from my own experience that they’d need time to process his cheating behavior, just as I had. Fast forward 6 months: details of his cheating have been slipping out, his behavior is under a microscope, and my family can hardly stomach the sight of him. Remember, these people are friends to BOTH of you… that means they’ll need more time to process what you’ve said, and observe his behavior. Believe me, they’re all thinking back, reliving their time with him, wondering if they missed any red flags, wondering how he hid it. It’s normal processing. They’re trying to make sense of the relationship, and their own ability to detect the deception.
I would be candid about what happened, but not to the point of giving out nasty details. Give your friends time to process the information. Those that choose to deny, for whatever reason (that’s another topic), are not real friends, and they won’t have your back when you need them. Let them go.
I so agree with this! It isn’t the sex part that was the ultimate betrayal. It was the lies, lack of respect for me, our relationship….and the duplicity. Those were the things that hurt to the core….for a long, long time.
Notice the past tense. After the hurt is indifference. Glorious, well-deserved, indifference. Hang in there!
I agree. The lies, deception and lack of any respect for a loyal and loving wife that was the deal-breaker. It was surprising that the fact that he was having sex with the grubby slut was not such an issue in comparison.
The pain is unbearable but does fade. I do find that I am mostly numb to the old pain and that I cannot remember much of the past, good or bad, which is strange.
I miss a partner and feel lonely but would not go back to the old life with him, for a million pounds. Indifference is a welcome relief and new doors start to open.
Maybe she could say “I’m not surprised you believe him, he’s very convincing. I believed him for a long time too.” Then change the subject to something else.
Oooh, Lyn, classy!
We have to remind ourselves that public image is #1 with these disordered people, so they have years and years of refining the art of lying and cover-up. They are expert at charming and deceiving ev.ery.one. I like Lyn’s approach when others say “but…he seems like such a nice guy!” (reverse gender if the POS is a female) If these so-called friends continue to question or disbelieve you, either show them the door or refer them to a site about PD’s. Your choice.
THIS – !!!! I’m going to memorize your third paragraph as my response to her or anyone else who questions me. Including me. Thank you!
“Matt says he didn’t do it.”
You say, “And I know he did. That’s the line in the sand you must decide to cross, if you so choose.”
And, if they deny anymore, you simply say, “You’ve made your choice clear. I wish you the best.” And walk away.
I like that Kelli, simple and clear.
Tracy is right about this as she always is, you need new friends. But the problem is it is just too tempting to spend a lot of time thinking of zingy comebacks.
Matt says he didnt do it
” funny, that is just what charles manson says”
” yes, matt’s evil twin is ALWAYS getting him in to trouble”
” have you seen the side piece? I wouldnt admit to that either!”
” he is thinking about dressing up for halloween as Bill Clinton, only the whore is having trouble keeping her blue dress on”
Why just one line? These things write themselves….
“These people — these Switzerland friends — have sided, they just don’t want you to think that. So they feign concern. They still associate with Matt. You’re obviously heart-broken, but they live in some alternative reality where Everything Should Just Go Back The Way It Was so they don’t have to rearrange their social calendars or reform opinions.”
^^This^^…. Amen and thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU, Chump Lady!! You have explained it perfectly. I want to shout this from the top of the Alps and hear it echo cross the land…
**across**
I’ve tried to maintain relationships with some so-called “neutral friends” and eventually realized it’s not worth it. They did not experience it. If they choose to believe my ex is Mr. Wonderful and I am the crazy ex, so be it. Count me out. It’s not worth the mental torture.
Same here. Two couples both said they were “staying neutral” but both started socializing with Ex and OW and stopped inviting me to their parties. One couple within a couple of weeks of DDay which makes me wonder if they already knew and when I kicked cheater out of our home, they allowed him to come and live with them till OW bought her big cushy suburban tract house where he now lives. The other couple also started socializing with the newly minted now legitimate couple. The cheater spin has filtered back to me via friends of these Switzerland friends as “Cheater met someone else and then he dumped Muse.” Well, not quite. They, too, stared at me like I had six heads when I told them I had proof that he had cheated with a prior OW. And you know what? If I cannot talk about what happened to me, how he violated my trust, in front of so-called friends then they are not friends.
If you have ever served on a jury, it will give you some perspective for how difficult it is to get people to agree on a conclusion, even when you all examine the same evidence. No one can know what another person’s relationship is like, because they are not there 24/7 and they do not know what you heard, saw, smelled, or experienced. It really doesn’t matter what others think about his guilt, unless they are considering getting into a relationship with him. You were there. Your reality is all that matters, to you.
You may point this out to them by suggesting that if they believe him, they should get involved with him and see how that works out for them. Or you may try to make a joke, about how absurd it is to believe what other people tell you. For instance, if you read a profile on a dating site a man might SAY he is 5’10”, but when you meet him he is 5’7″ in his shoes. What are you supposed to do then? Believe he is 5″10″ because he says so? There is an old joke about a cheater who asks his wife, “Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”
As Chump Lady suggests, believe that they suck. It is not your job to convince others.
OMG these PEOPLE!! Look, I can think of 100 one liners but the fact remains that these people are assholes. I don’t think it’s so much that they don’t believe you, but like CL says, they like things to stay the way they are. If he’s the favorite “more social” one, they’ve picked their side already and know he’s fucked around but they don’t really care. And really, you don’t need “friends” like that.
I’d end up saying something along the lines of “Either you back me or you don’t. If you want him so bad, you fucking marry him.” But after that, I’d sever these fucks.
I lost a pile of “friends” when asshole imploded our marriage. But I had to do it. There was no way I’d be able to get on with my life with these idiots still in it. People who really care about you do not expect you to get back with the person who ripped you apart.
And congratulations on dumping this idiot pre-nuptuals. Bullet dodged!
I agree with Rumblekitty. My parents-in-law eventually supported their abusive cheater son, telling me that I should re-enter a dangerous situation because I had no financial options. I knew then that they, like their son, didn’t really love me. I ended up ‘dropping’ my parents-in-law, the paternal grandparents of my children, after treating them as my second set of parents for a decade. Stopping contact with them was like cutting off my own arm–a gangrenous one. Cutting it off was painful, but leaving it connected would have been disastrous.
One line response to ‘friends:’ Matt cheats and lies to both you and me.
I cut off my in-laws as well. It took me a long time and finally it was my therapist who told me they were toxic and continuing to have a relationship with them, where they were pretty much gas lighting me and blame shifting like mad, was dangerous to me and keeping me stuck and in pain.
When I finally listened and said ‘enough’ it hurt like hell but in the end it really did help me move forward. And looking back I can see they really were – and are – just as toxic as he was and is.
My “one liner” usually comes after the “what happened?” question. I say “he took his vows to be suggestions and ‘love thy neighbor’ literally”
For the “he says he got together with her after the breakups” (she was married too) – I say “of course they say that. They also say _________ and I were horrible people”
Yes not really into forsaking all others vow. Must have had his fingers crossed behind my back. Whore juice is more than welcome to him.
Some responses that will leave them scratching their head
“He categorically denies having sexual relations with that woman!”
Or
“Can you give me a minute I still have his shoe stuck in my ass, can I use your bathroom?”
Or
“Yes and I forgot to mention he is a virgin since we never had sex!”
Or
“You know in the bedroom he looks like a monkey screwing a football!”
Serious ones
“If you want to remain my friends please do not mention him to me in this same context again.”
Or
“I understand what you are saying but it is no longer relevant. I made my decision, so please if you wish to remain part of my life lets not talk about him again in the same context.”
Or
“I am seeing someone else so it would be rude to bring him up again.” (It may not be true but it would signal that you are really done with him.
A monkey screwing a football! Yay!
The first one is great.
Don’t you think that if you saw it on social media, that some of them saw it too? I think you should find new friends. So sorry this happened to you…
I had Switzerland friends, one even felt the need to berate me in public because she felt the need to choose and it was clearly all my fault for choosing to end my marriage following d’day. The bottom line of her little tirade and I quote ” who looks after those, who look after those who choose to end their marriage”. Yep it was all my fault and my d’day trauma at that point became all about her and her stress over choosing. This ex friend is now championing my XH’s cause by repeating his lies that he never cheated it was all just a lie he made up to get away from me because I refused to divorce him. My XH never asked for a divorce quite the opposite, he insisted when I asked for a divorce a month before d’day that we do counselling stating that he loved me and wanted to make our marriage work. I found out after d’day that during this expression of love, devotion and Christian commitment he hooked up with someone during this time.
I hate to say it but i do think the Christian Switzerland friends are without doubt the hardest to manage.
Excuses,
“I need to remain friends with him just in case he finally comes to a place of true repentance, he may need my help.”
“God calls us to forgive, besides I don’t need to know what he did as that may cause me to judge him unfairly”
And my favourite from the elder who provided his lounge room for my d’day revelation, ” there is no need for anyone to know what he did as that may hinder his recovery, besides two wrongs don’t make a right”.
I know my situation is different to most but 22 months post d’day I have learnt that those who know the truth and know me, love me and have my back. And the rest can get on with their shallow pathetic lives.
Because I know who will have the last laugh, no matter how long it takes.
Yes, I’ve been beat up by some Switzerland friends and some Jesus cheater apologists for seeking help from family and friends through this nightmare.. saying.. “You telling people has hurt the poor sausage”. WTF?
What about my hurt? Was I supposed to suffer in silence?
Craziness.
I heard from a few people (mostly ex and my ex-in-laws) that telling people why we were divorcing was a terrible thing to do. And I figure in their eyes they really thought this because while on one hand they were saying there was nothing wrong with cheating they really didn’t want people to know that he was a serial cheater. They’d rather go with the narrative that our marriage was dead and whoopsie, he happened to meet someone else as he realised this.
Nope, not what happened at all but whatever. They can try to spin that all they want. I know what happened.
The topic of Switzerland friends is an interesting one: I have really struggled to rationlize how friends could remain friendly with my ex, and even welcome her AP, and still think they could remain friends with me. And these are close friends, who saw me break down when I discovered her affair and know the sordid details.
The reality is that people don’t like to rock the boat: You are outwardly happy now. She is definitely happy, so what’s the problem here. Let’s move on as quickly as possible from the scene of the “accident”.
~~~~
The problem is that they have no moral conscience and take the easy route of glossing over the details, and glossing over your pain.
And as painful as it is, I’ve walked away from these Switzerland friends, because I just cannot deal with their ambiguity. It’s took a year to reach this conclusion, and I’m better off for it.
the Switzerland friends have been a strange conundrum for me as well. I kept thinking, ‘they’re really my friends though’ and ‘they saw what happened!’ But it is so true that people really don’t want to “lose their fun.” my ex hosts a yearly party that many of them enjoy attending, because he provides the booze, the activities, etc. they simply cannot let some abusive shocking behavior ruin the party! and, thanks to the acting job of my ex, they all easily believe what he wants them to believe-that he and the AP are truly in love. I let them go too and I feel much more at peace
That’s the truth… they don’t want to miss out on the fun. My ex was well-liked and a source of entertainment (in a local band which provides an excuse to go out and get drunk with the gang, right?). Many of them witnessed the ugliness during our divorce; they saw my total devastation and the way he continued to pull shameless dirty stunts he throughout, yet they continued be supportive of him as well… He was crying about how he didn’t want a divorce and I was being an evil bitch!! It was as if the entirety of Switzerland thought he and I together were a lost cause, but they magically could help turn him around to do right by our kids and the replacement wife he quickly found. They played it out as if it would be mean of them to abandon him when he hadn’t done anything bad to them…
Amen NorthLondon,
If you want to be the cheaters friend, be their friend. If you want to be my friend, then be my friend. But you have no place being both because that means you lack personal integrity.
There is a really great song out at the moment by James Bay ” nobody needs a best fake friend” those who I have identified as being like this in my life I have no time for.
As a result I lost my entire church family just after d’day and because I have no actual family this was a huge blow. But finding my centre and cutting ties with double minded people was worth it.
My ex was having an emotional affair, even told me that she was his “new best friend” and I had not been his wife or partner or real friend for “a while” (which really is complete bullshit). I also have documentation of him writing her poems and stuff like that. When we separated with the express purpose to work in our marriage he said separation were non exclusive and slept with AP. He refuses to consider any of what he did inappropriate or cheating. He was just a wounded soul. So far all of my friends have completely sided with me (not only about the affair but also recognizing he was a manipulative and controlling narcissist and I had suffered a lot of emotional abuse). I know that he has his groupies who think he is a knight in shining armor who was wounded, but thankfully we don’t run in the same circles. He doesn’t tell people that he is now with AP (because she lives abroad), but they spend all day chatting like teenagers. Today he is traveling back to Europe for “important work” and going to stay with AP until the end of the month (I try not to think about it, and just detach, because we are definitely no longer together). I do wonder if he will post more pictures of them together online (he posted some before we separated, I had so many people call me to ask what the heck was going on and eventually he took the pictures down but didn’t get why they were inappropriate).
Anyways I’m glad I don’t have to deal with Switzerland friends, and Morten is trying to get back with me or I would probably lose my head. Right now your focus should be in rebuilding your life. Take this opportunity to cut anyone from your life that is not an instrument of healing and growth.
Stbx told me his AP was his “very best friend.” So, all the time they spent together I was at home manning the fort and caring for our children while they sat around stroking each other’s egos and telling get each other what they wanted to hear. I’m glad it happened. Now I know what kind of man he is.
I really resent having been used to care for our kids on the myriad nights my XW was out screwing around. They were young and one was very disabled. I could have used some help.
I always wonder about these women who want to be with a man who will leave the wife and kids at home while he goes out and plays fun times with the side piece. Do they really think that this is a sign of a good guy? Or do they think they’re so absolutely special that the guy is only doing it because of their specialness and the horribleness of what it’s like at home?
It’s all about the kibble. If you get busy with kids/grad school/a stressful job, and can’t give them their well deserved kibble then they need someone who can. And it is really not their fault at all, because they were so darn “neglected”. At the end people like me ex will never be happy, they just don’t know how to be happy people, and we are better off without them.
^^This.^^ They are miserable people.
They says he’s sorry, huh? Well, lions don’t lose sleep over the opinions of sheep. These “friends” are not friends of yours. Go be mighty and forget the one-liners. They’ve already made up their minds. Let them have him. Sounds like they’re all perfect for each other.
C- congrats on your brave decision to call off the wedding and not go for reconciliation , therapy etc. You are so brilliant to have avoided a life of deception.Many of us chumps had red flags as big as yours but went on with the wedding (there is a fabulous CL entry on ominous signs that also ocurred during the wedding or honeymoon!) and all the rest (joint property, children, etc…) So consider this a wonderful gift to start a new life, which also means a new life away from friends who do not have your back.
After Dday, the only friendship on my side who blamed me for the affair is over. The common friends who were really his group of friends are still siding with him, but that is because he got his lovers from that group. There are plenty more women in that group who are delighted that we got divorced so they can get him now..They don´t know they are competing with each other, and he will be happy to have them all. They also don´t know he had a first wife and cheated on her too. So, C, getting out of a circle of friends who doesn´t believe you, is either because they are cheaters or APs themselves or they knew something was going on and are helping him cover it because they feel guilty about it.
I say, that the next time you get one of these phrases you just say “too bad you don´t believe the truth, I thought you were my friend…Bye!”
good riddance…..
I agree with CL. Friends trust you and they believe you. On one level the social circle believing the cheater over the chump can be comforting. After all we believed our cheaters were honest, ethical and had integrity, and we LIVED with them. It really is no surprise they can convince other people they are honest and we are not.
That is an excellent point datdamwuf!
[Annoying friend] “Matt says he didn’t do it.”
[Response] “And that’s why the evidence I gathered was so valuable.”
@ Free Vixen
That is the tack I have taken with the Swiss, almost exactly. For those with whom I am not close/are only in it for the gossip, my response is simply “I am a researcher for a living. I don’t draw conclusions about anything without concrete evidence.” Then I shut the whole conversation down. For others who are closer to the situation, I may be more verbose, but it’s the same tactic. “I know. I wanted to believe the best of him, too. Hell, I NEEDED to believe. I think that’s why I was so devastated when I was faced with all the evidence. It made it impossible to lie to myself anymore.”
Right on LMM, I am keeping this for what to say to future Swiss “friends.”
Good reply. It’s HIS credibility that is in issue.
But that turns into an argument of “What evidence?” and the next thing you know, you’re having your entire story picked a part like you’re a victim on the witness stand.
It’s none of their damn business.
Except that I’m the kind of person who would happily share what evidence I found if asked!
Me too! I am ever so happy to share evidence with anyone….they don’t even have to ask 🙂
Me too. I shared the evidence with several of my close friends and family members. Pretty much cleared up any doubt. Luckily I was the one who had a lot of friends in our marriage. I kept the friends, and he moved and adopted OW’s friends and family. We don’t travel in the same circles any more, except we still have children in common. It’s all so strange after 36 years…
Same here. I got most of the friends because I was the one who made the effort with friends. He’s a sad sausage about this. I lost a few along the way, mainly because they thought it was too much effort to deal with angry, hurt, upset and slightly nutty Nord while I was trying to recover – which made me realise they were not a real friends and let them go.
I shared the evidence I had with my XW’s brother and said “Dan, I am about 95% certain Laurie is having an affair.”
He responded” Arnold, why don’ t you crank that up about 5%.”
Good one!
While the advice is spot on, let’s acknowledge that it SUCKS to have to find all new friends. It’s not fair. He’s the one who cheater, yet the chump has to find a new social circle.
It would be so much easier to just convince them that Matt is a cheater. But that’s probably not going to happen, they will still be Switzerland. So C, you may be able to salvage a few friends (not with a one-liner, but with some quality heart to heart time), but most will probably have to go.
When they say, “Matt says he didn’t do it” you say, “Mind your own business.”
C, I was in almost your exact same situation. I never caught my ex in the act; there was just too much circumstantial and verbal evidence from the OW for me to ignore. He swore up, down and around that he never, ever cheated, they were just friends, etc. And he protested his innocence to anyone who would listen.
Unfortunately, I had to cut off a bunch of friends as a result. I didn’t appreciate being indirectly called a liar and being interrogated about my perception of events every time I spoke to these people.
I don’t necessarily blame people for wanting to give my ex the benefit of the doubt (he seemed very sincere and earnest, especially to outsiders), but the least some people could’ve done (if they were really my friends) was keep their opinions to themselves.
I am in the same situation as you were Lulu… it sucks to not have clear evidence because they can gaslight you more effectively, and I don’t know about you, but I can get to where I feel like I’m losing my mind.. did I IMAGINE this whole thing? Then I snap out of it.
What is so frustrating is these people don’t realize it would be so much easier to forgive them, even maybe reconcile, if they could be straight with us. But its much harder, in fact, impossible, if you get the sense that someone just isn’t coming clean. Lying destroys. My STBX just doesn’t get this because I have come to realize his values are not the same as mine. H really doesn’t think lying is a big deal and it’s because of how he was brought up. There is no way I am going to change this in him. It’s who he is.
newchumppatl… you’re comments on this have been GREAT and so helpful to me!! Also from your previous commet that could be your onliner…. I discovered our values are not the same!
newchump, I agree, it’s about the LYING. Because when we lie, we rob the other person of the right to be informed about THEIR OWN LIVES! It shows complete lack of respect, lack of caring and empathy, and lack of moral character.
It’s the lying, even more than the affairs, I think, that destroys relationships, by showing us who our partner really is, and how much they actually care about us (zero being the answer to that one).
My one liner, ………. After all these years of knowing me you think I am making it up. Well I guess that old saying is true, birds of a feather…………….. ( smile and walk away) anyone who doubts you is not a friend or they are extremely naive. Either way they do not warrant your time and energy.
When I first told a friend what had happened to my marriage she was shocked, but looked me in the face and said, it is had to believe this has happened but what I do know of you, your honest to the core so as crazy as it all sounds I believe you. This meant a great deal at the end I me as my XH never took responsibility and engaged in damage control from the get go.
Sorry for typos, iPad, and it is late. Time to sleep.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Matt has sex with skanks
And lies to you
Awesome!
“If you believe him so much, then you marry him.”
C tell them “That’s what ALL cheaters say” because IT IS WHAT ALL CHEATERS SAY! Plus the “you’ve got no proof” I heard that one too! Good job recognizing he’s a low-life and moving on to better things! (((HUGS)))
Yes, the “you’ve got no proof” thing. LOL. As if that is what ultimately destroys things.. the lack of proof or the proof… it’s about the TRUST. The fact that you are battling with trust is the problem.. not the cheating itself. It’s the trust.
Yeah, I used to believe his lies too.
Damn it, my work productivity is plummeting.
Thank God you caught him before you married him.
Many here have poured decades of their lives into one-sided relationships that only became more and more one-sided.
You may not realize it, but you dodged a bullet. It may not feel like it, but when you consider how much worse these things can be, you did.
Now ask yourself what is up with you where you want to continue to engage with him via so-called “friends”? Fix that or suffer our collective fate.
Hear! Hear! I spent 30 years with a cheater. Take this gift and run with it!!! You’ve received some valuable insight and knowledge at a relatively young age. You’re already so wise! I think I would have made 100 excuses for his behavior. Keep moving forward… you’re a rock star in these parts! I’m cheering for you!!!
C-You are so mighty. Congratulations for that! Walking away before you commit more time to a cheater is awesome. He waved the red flag; you didn’t spackle; you recognized it for what it was and you respected yourself enough to stick to your standards.
You should be proud but I understand how nerve wracking this all is. I think it’s best to remove all contact from anyone in your ex’s life that has interests at heart. Clearly if they are coming to you on behalf of him, they have his best interest and not yours, in mind. It sucks.
You walked away from him so I suggest walking away from them too. Go cold turkey on everyone in his orbit and stick with people that aren’t trying to push you to take him back.
I don’t have any one liners but I don’t think you need them. You got this one girl!
Be glad that these ‘friends’ are showing you who they are. I must still carry a mole or two in my circle, as ex is being given information about me or my sons that the ‘general population’ wouldn’t know. Drives me nuts. They guy abandoned us by moving 1500 miles away with his child-ho-worker and yet he is still nosing around my business. I really have nothing to hide, but just want him gone!
Well, cheaters lie, of course!
Why would he?
Good liars ARE good liars because they never back down from the lie. If they didn’t play the part of a Good Person so well, they’d never get away with it.
How about “The Other Woman ‘s infectious disease specialist confirmed that the rash those two share in their genitals is from the same strand! ” and then change the subject!!! with a “What goes on in Vegas doesn’t always stay in Vegas. For instance, Herpes. That will follow you home.”
If you must, how about “I’ve moved on. So how about that/those ‘insert mundane subject here’?”
As far as your mutual friends go you must remember that they are victims of a master manipulator just as you were. As Mark Twain said “it is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.”
In time they may come to see him as he is or they won’t. Your challenge is to accept that may never happen and to feel ok about it. Personally I would stay far away from them as it won’t help with healing and moving on and right now it should be all about you.
That’s a great quote, Ninja.
I personally feel challenged in this area — how to respond to peoples comments or oversharing. After the fact, I learned that my EX controlled the narrative. One of the choice bits was…”we had an open relationship”. News to me!
It is tough when you want to roast his nuts over an open fire. But it gets you no where. People believe what they want to. My gut is that the guys in the group already know the truth…something about guy code.
The mean part of me has this suggestion. “Listen between you and I, he gave me an STD. My doctor says the only way I got it was from him. I got a course of antibiotics, so I am OK now. But he won’t go to the doctor even though I begged him.”
The diplomat suggests this. “I really loved him, but truth is that he’s never going to be ready for marriage. It breaks my heart, but it is best to end it now.”
Reply: You would believe that. I hope you have good life in your bubble.
Or “What do the sunsets look like on your planet?”
You won’t change their mind so dont bother.
They always deny. I would just give them an ” I can’t BELIEVE you just said that look ” and walk away. It’s very effective. Chump Lady is right, as usual. These people are not your friends. They are a bunch of sniveling gossips.
My comeback to anyone who asks what happened or makes a statement is:
i say its a truth or dare situation asswipe dares to tell you he and I drifted apart, he moved out and found his true love everything is cool I still love karmarie so much and we are best friends!
Truth: I say after thirty years I couldn’t wrap my head around sharing him with his whore girlfriend he was so trustworthy, but his lying, cheating, blowing up our financial and destroying our marriage and friendshipand ignoring our children was just too much to bare so I gladly handed him over to the great new twat. Her monkey, her circus.
She better be glad I don’t want to go to jail or I would get two of those old fashioned metal apple corers and take out her eyes via the back of her head! Oh my did I just say that out loud? Hee her. Exactly what whore juice deserves. Asswipes punishment would be even better… Ah perchance to dream…
Hey, just a shameless plug for the New Book — but I have a whole chapter on Switzerland friends and how to respond to the Stupid Shit they say. (Plus cartoons!)
Yay, I actually don’t know where to get a copy of your old book, but I’m excited about the new one. CL you’ve made all the difference. Unfortunately I had to add your website to my daily time wasting counter, because I was spending too much time going over your articles :).
Divorceat25 – Time wasting counter? Could you maybe re-frame your time on CL as the cheapest, best therapeutic and immunizing investment you are making in yourself to avoid wasting time on future relationships with Cluster B’s at work and in life :)???
Oh I truly love and appreciate CL. I definitely feel that being involve in this community will save me from a lot of heartache and encounters with cluster B personalities. That being said, I’m a grad student and thinking is my currency. So when I’m at work I need to be able to stop thinking about my X and how unfair this all is. I’ve spent my first month of singlehood just browsing CL for several hours a day and ruminating about what he said an did or he did or could have done… It was time to stop. So I installed an extasion called ClearFocusd and added CL to it. I love this blog, and this community, but I just can’t let myself spend all day thinking about how shitty this situation is (even if it will turn out to be the best for me long term)
Divorceat25 – I know from your previous comment how valuable and appreciative you are of CL and CN, I was trying to help you reframe your time here as the best investment possible in yourself, sorry that my comment came across harsher than I intended.
Your comment about time management brought me right back to my own graduate school days. Time management is indeed critical, especially putting boundaries in place so you can discern when/what to say yes to and just as importantly what to say no to.
You are mighty to have walked away from your ex so young and while in grad school! One of the biggest benefits from my outsider perspective is that you are now also freed from a tough two-body job search situation…
Keep going Divorceat25, I wish you the very best as you continue on your path to Meh!
@Chumptitude, I didn’t think your comments were harsh, I think you made a valid point and I wanted to clarify my position, because I truly do love CL and the CN and I would hate for anyone to think I was belittling their process or their recovery.
The lack of two-body job search is definitely one of the clearest upsides. I was so willing to just follow my ex everywhere (even though I’m the one getting PhD), and he would have never made similar sacrifices for me. At first I worried that the lack of his European citizenship would complicate my visa situation in the future, but I think that’s part of what he wanted me to think. At the end of the day, I’m brilliant (sorry for tooting my own horn there) and I will get a job offer and a work visa like so many other talented people, and without him more doors open than close.
Although I’m still at 2 years out of trying to find a real job, so the more pressing concern is to get some papers out to publication.
This is such an accomplishment!
DivorcedAt25
CL and CN saved my life. The support I have received here opened my eyes to the abuse I suffered for 41 years living with a serial cheater. X lived a double life or singlehood throughout the entire marriage.
When my therapist stated on my first visit that It would take at least two years to even think about getting into another relationship I cried. It’s been fourteen months since he picked up a bar whore on our 36th wedding anniversary.
What you might view as ruminating may very well be in your case. I view it as finally having a place where others can share their stories with those who understand and can offer support. Often times the support comes from similar experiences with the personality disordered.
I learn something every time I come here and hopefully provide encouragement to others going through the process if having their spouse betray them in unbelievable and cruel ways.
The goal is to reach meh. We have to shift our focus on ourselves. It’s a tall order given the harm these selfish assholes so carelessly inflicted without empathy or remorse. Rather than ruminating I view it as a process in recovery.
I completely understand your point. Each person has their own path to reach meh, and ruminating and getting as many resources from CL and CN certainly helps. In many ways stories such as yours inspire me, because I know that people have had to deal with worst assholes than my ex and for longer, and people are struggling and maybe even can’t leave their situation because of finances or special needs children. I wasn’t trying to discount how amazing this community is or how much it can help.
It was a poor choice of words, but precisely because it helps me to read about CN and understand my situation better I’ve spent a long time in this website and the forums since discovering CL. Unfortunately, a lot of that time has been in my office, during hours I should have been using to advance my research. So I had to get a counter to limit my time on the site during working hour. It is a productivity app and design to limit “time wasting” but I didn’t mean to imply that CL was a waste of my time. Because it isn’t, at this point CL is integral to my mental health. But when look back at this year, I want to remember all good research I got done. I want to be able to come back in a few months and tell you guys that I’ve submitted my first paper for publication. That requires me working during my working hours.
Keep being mighty!
On your anniversary? What an asshole!! (((donna))) Keep being mighty!
Yay for cartoons! 🙂
Here’s my script:
Well, friend, you tell me that Matt says he didn’t do it. I’m telling you he did do it. I left the relationship because I do not want to be married to a liar and cheat. Why do you think he’s still telling you he didn’t do it? He lost something good when he made his poor choices and he knows it. If I’m such a terrible, suspicious person, why would he even want me back? I’ll tell you why, because I’m not. I dodged a bullet when I got a glimpse at his true character before we married, and I am relieved to be well out it.
You can give him the benefit of a doubt if you want, but I already did, and I already got burned, so please don’t ask me to put myself in harm’s way again. Maybe he will mend his ways and maybe he won’t, but it is not my problem any longer.
Now, do you want to keep this conversation going and implying, whether you mean to or not, that I’m lying about how Matt treated me or do you want to order me another margarita and we can move on to a better topic?
I’m in agreement that you need new friends but if you must reply just say, “Why don’t you ask (name the other woman) what she thinks about Matt and his version of the truth?” Turn and walk away and keep on walking. Put that person’s name on a list and block them from ever contacting you again.
Say very sarcastically, “Matt deserves better than being with someone who doesn’t trust him.”
Oh I LOVE this. It’s a passive aggressive sparkly middle finger dipped in glitter then tied with a shiny “fuck you” bow. Playing them at their own game. Perfection!
Need a “LOVE” button, for both Working It Out and Ninja chump’s comments :)!
Ooh. Snap!
Lots of good advice! If it hasn’t been said yet, I would only add that it’s not hard to predict the next step in this situation. He will eventually realize that you truly are not, ever, going to get back together with him. Next thing these so-called friends will be hearing about is how effing crazy you were all along, boiling bunny and all that, and they will drop you like a hot potato.
I agree with what CL and CN are saying, disengage yourself from them now while you are on a roll with being so mighty!