Dear Chump Lady, My therapist thinks I’m responsible for my husband’s cheating
Dear Chump Lady,
I just finished reading your book. Your words about using caution when finding the right therapist were life changing for me. I found out after 24 years of marriage that my husband had been having an affair for over a year. In the many counseling sessions I have attended since D-Day, I found my self getting worse instead of better. I would wonder why I felt enraged after every session. Was something wrong with me? Was I crazy?
Then I read your book and it as if the clouds parted and I could see. As your book mentioned, if my husband had pushed me down the stairs, people would not be asking me what I may have done to cause myself to be pushed. And yet for over a year I had been seeing therapists who asked me to spend a lot of time thinking about what I may have done that pushed him towards cheating. One therapist even suggested that my husband may have been struggling with depression at the time and being mad at him over depression would be like being mad at him for having diabetes. What? Some of this therapy hurt me worse and made the recovery more difficult.
Jones
Dear Jones,
You’re not alone. One sad motif on this blog are the vast numbers of chumps who got the victim-shaming shrinks.
I’d like to take this moment to ask chumps about their D-Days. Folks, when you discovered you’d been betrayed, and the bottom fell out of your world, your marriage was at an all-time low, and you were nearly paralyzed with depression — was your first response to go fuck another person?
No? But you had EVERY EXCUSE! Clearly your spouse didn’t love you! You were depressed! Your marriage SUCKED!
But you didn’t blow your boss, did you? No, you danced furiously to save your marriage, didn’t you? You booked those shrink appointments and bought 50 infidelity books on Amazon. You asked yourself what you did to be so unlovable and how you could change.
Now then, cheaters — let’s say for the sake of argument — were confronted with the same stressors: depression, lack of love, sucky marriage — so why didn’t THEY dance furiously, book shrink appointments, and ask themselves how they could change?
Character.
This is fucking common sense, therapists! I’ll say it again — we don’t MAKE people hurt us. You no more made someone cheat on you than you made them shove your head through a plate-glass window. I’m sorry, you were irritating me with your Donald Trump memes… I had to hit you. Look, you might seriously be irritating. You did NOT make that person HIT you. They CHOSE to hit you. That was their crappy response to perceived irritation. Should you stop sending Donald Trump memes? Perhaps you should. BUT THAT WON’T PROTECT YOU FROM BEING HIT. Next it will be the way you cook oatmeal, or part your hair, or parent your children. Until the abuser’s ENTITLEMENT to hit (cheat) is addressed, the “provocations” are moving goal posts.
Here’s an example of this horse shit someone sent me this morning, from “AH Resources.”
Perhaps one of your greatest challenges in the recovery process will be accepting your own responsibility for the past condition of your marriage. I am in no way suggesting that the affair was your fault. It wasn’t. However, if you hope to enjoy a restored (and, perhaps, improved) intimate connection with your spouse, you will need to recognize your own missteps in the dance of your marriage.
The affair isn’t your fault, except that it is. We only ask people to “accept responsibility” for things that ARE THEIR FAULT. Otherwise, why mention it?
I’m not saying that meteor hit was your fault. I’m by no means suggesting that 700 burnt acres and that crater had anything to do with you. But one of your greatest challenges in the recovery process will be accepting your own responsibility for the condition of your planet.
Yes, if you’d only practiced better forest management, that meteor would never have obliterated Caldwell County.
Jones, you didn’t really ask me a question, but you did give me an opportunity for this public service announcement. We Don’t Make People Cheat On Us. It’s on THEM.
Thank you.
This column ran previously, but the need for this public service announcement remains.
I am currently on a annual vacation with extended family for the first time without my cheating spouse. I have no kids and everyone else has thier spouses so I feel a liitle out of place. Fighting the self pity..and in doing that I sometimes catch myself wondering if I had done something different I wouldnt be on this trip by myself. Then I catch myself thinking WHATEVER I didnt cause this… but Im the one dealing with it….and frankly that does suck.
I know in my head that I will not stop going on this trip because that would just allow him to steal something else from me.
It still hurts though. Just wanted to share with CN because I know theyll get it whe. My family doesnt.
OutOfAshes,
Good for you, going on the trip.
Hold your head high.
YOU are mighty!
Thank you! Im doing my best 🙂 all we can do really. Sadness has gotten better since the first day. Doing different things from past trips.
Our MC wanted us to acknowledge my STBX’s grief over the loss of his AP. I lost it. I yelled that he didn’t get the luxury of mourning. WHAT THE FUCK. Sorry I won’t abbreviate my outrage. Stupid made a choice to put us in this mess. How about lying, cheating, unprotected sex? Do I get to mourn my trust, good health and end to financial stability? WHEN YOU ARE MARRIED YOU DO NOT GET TO FUCK WHOEVER YOU WANT. End of story. Our MC should have told him he was a baby man child who needs to grow up, but we don’t want to call him out on his behavior because he may feel bad about himself and our relationship. Bad counseling is as bad as the gaslighting ..no worse. CL gave me my balance and sanity back. Thank You!
Exactly! No, you do NOT get to mourn the loss of the affair partner. FUCK THAT! Wow is that a fucked up therapist and I am so sorry for that.
Reminds me of my ex-therapist. She told me that not only do I need to be empathetic regarding my cheater’s feelings for her affair partner, but that I need to recognize that her time is her own to do with it what she wants. And so long as she comes back to me during “our time,” then there are no problems. In other words, SHE TOLD ME TO JUST ACCEPT MY CHEATER’S CHEATING!!!
Fuck that noise. And fuck couples’ therapy.
Mourn the loss of the affair partner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck that! And fuck any therapist who thinks that is right to do.
Our MC said the same thing while counseling me to let exasshole continue to email the OW, because, you know, the poor sad sausage was in pain over losing his ‘friend’. Fuck to the NO, he never lost her to begin with. I hate that stupid therapist. After he gave me an STD she counseled me to stick with him. After I got the PO, bitch billed ME for the last session. I told her to bill exasshole and that her advice had nearly gotten me killed. Never heard from the soul sucking MC again.
NEVER go to an MC who is invested in saving the marriage, never. The MC is not supposed to be doing that shit.
A couple of things explain this consistent bias against the victims of infidelity. One is that marriage counselors exist to fix marriages. It’s like the old adage that to a hammer, the whole world is a nail. So a cheater and his spouse go into marriage counseling and the focal point is not the cheater’s disorder or poor character or abusive choices but in getting the chump to “forgive” because without that, the marriage can’t be saved. Lots of cheaters, though not all of them, are happy to save the marriage if it means they get to keep the house, access to the kids, and pay no child support. Meanwhile, cheater can go after cake on the side because ChumpySpouse has caved in and “forgiven.” So now the cheater knows there is pretty much nothing short of killing that will end the marriage. Some of these couples’ therapists may even find the cheater (sparkling away) more attractive that the chump and consciously or not favor him or her.
The other possibility is that the therapist just generally thinks that people want to–and should–save the marriage at all costs and everything therefore is geared to examining the “chump role” in the affair. That’s just another way of examining what the chump shoulda woulda coulda done. That idea also feeds on the notion that in relationships, everything is 50/50, so each partners shares the blame. My own therapist listened to my sad story of what went on with Jackass but all of the therapy was about ME–but it wasn’t about why it was my fault. It was about how I could move forward without ending up with another jackass. She didn’t see the problem as 50/50. I was sitting in therapy. He was on his phone with Schmoopie. Not hard there to figure out who was the lying, backstabbing, gaslighting freak. We had been working together for a long while and she was visibly thrilled to see a crack in my “gotta have a man” armor. But her first words? “You can never go back to him [Jackass}.” That shocked me but kept me sane until I found CL and started learning about disordered people.
Good points LAJ. My experience with MC was a disaster. But I admit that I went in desperate to save the relationship, that she probably was trying to deliver this result at first, and I bought into it wholeheartedly for the first 4 months. On the other hand, she is a clinical psychologist and registered psychotherapist as well as an IMAGO counsellor.
During our 2nd session we each made a list of our partner’s behaviours which bothered us. His consisted of me being rigid and rule-bound, being asexual, falling asleep on the couch in the early evenings, not having faith in him, not trusting him, not being open, being tight with money. Number one on my list was his anger and yelling. She asked us to score them. I score this at 10/10. I explained that his anger scared me, that I froze and couldn’t function when he yelled at me, just like his working dog does. I pointed out that yelling isn’t good foreplay or conducive to me wanting sex. I finally said that when I jumped to stop some sheep escape and broke my arm 5 years earlier, I did it without looking where I was jumping because he had just been raging at me and I was afraid he’d get angry at me again.
I still can’t believe that a well qualified professional did not flag this as abuse. I didn’t, I never used the word abuse, it’s taken me months on CN and Tempest’s 2x4s after he left for the penny to drop. However, I believe any counsellor should have recognised this.
Our counselling went on for another 9 months going nowhere. After about 4 months I was really feeling manipulated and that he was using the sessions to badger me while refusing to even set boundaries with the Whore. So I stopped feeding the beast, would say very little hoping that he would fill the silence with more nonsense and it eventually would become glaringly obvious that it was all bullshit. Hoping that she would finally challenge the Timid Forest Creature who claimed he was afraid of me, I would harm him while cutting his hair with a buzzer, I was trying to poison him, I was emasculating him…
Never happened. But I was still desperate to save the relationship, convinced he was having some mid-life crisis madness. You can imagine how much all this cost over nearly 10 months so that the Traitor could have time to decide what he wanted, lawyer up 4 months before telling me he was leaving, etc.
I accept responsibility for going to MC with an agenda: I love, I love our family,save the relationship. But I will never accept that a competent professional could not see what was going on, no matter how gifted a gaslighter the Traitor is with his crocodile tears. He couldn’t even fool my dog, she’d started sitting on my lap (she’s a lab cross, not a lap dog) and growling at him when he came near. She’d never done that before and she doesn’t sit on my lap all the time now because she knows I’m safe.
Completely agree your therapist should have flagged Monster’s abuse (and thus I will not go so far as to call her either competent or a professional).
I love *him*!!!!
Great news, I can hardly say the words now, yay!
namuelle, you deserve credit for not throwing something.
Grief over the AP? Sounds like the counselor has been in cheaterland. How could any mental health professional who has even basic understanding of the emotional trauma you’ve been put through SAY something that STUPID, unless he or she had been a sad sausage cheater?
Counselor read the RIC sites. That nonsense is all over those sites. I did try to give STBX the chance to grieve AP but there was nothing to grieve because he never ended it with her.
Namuelle to counselor: I’m going to beat your ass right now. When I’m done, I want us all to acknowledge MY grief over losing my perfect score of never having beat someone’s ass before. How will that work for you? Now f-off and give me my money back – quack.
Sorry you had to deal with TWO f-tards in that room at once.
Rotfl????????????????????????????????????????
Bad counseling IS gaslighting, or at least accomplice-to-gaslighting.
Out of the Ashes
You will rise like a Phoenix. One way to heal faster is to move. I mean move your body around as much as you can. I am not a scientist and I believe there are some on here and perhaps they can explain it. But when we move around a lot I think it pushes our brain forward out of that stuck devestated groove. Think of an old record player stuck. Think of exercises as a bump to move you forward.
It’s the closest thing to a magic bullet I found. I don’t know where you are vacationing but if there are trails or an ocean start walking every morning. Invest in an iPod or other listening device and some beatz headphones. Load up on rocking music and zone out. You are totally worth it. ????????????
Im walking every day on the beach… my struggle is he and I did that! Im trying to do it at a different time of day. Im also going to rent a beach bike cause we never did that! Lol. 🙂
Totally get it! My dday came two months before I gave birth. So I spent my maternity leave dealing with the pick me dance, the divorce, and going no contact. No one at work knew but everyone knew and loved him. So of course when I came back to work all I got was “How is Daddy doing? How are you and Dad doing? I bet she has him wrapped around his finger”. It was TORTURE! It was the most heart wrenching thing ever to have people ask about the POSH when I wanted to scream “HE FUCKING SUCKS. HE WAS AT SLUTFACES APARTMENT THE NIGHT MY WATER BROKE THEN ABANDONED ME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT WHEN THE BABY WAS 2 WEEKS OLD BECAUSE HE WAS PISSED OFF THAT THE BABY HAD A HARD TIME LATCHING TO MY BREAST”. But because I didn’t want anyone to know I just smiled and said “he is doing the best he can”.
It does get easier. Through all of this I have developed anxiety. I get really bad anxiety attacks when I’m in public. But I have found that forcing myself into situations where I know it may come up makes me face it and get over it quicker. I now take the baby to all work functions, I go to family functions, whatever it is I try to go (baby permitting of course). Its awful each and everytime. I still cry, get upset, and let my mind wander into the WHY ME trap. But its delayed a little bit longer each time. The anxiety use to set in before I even had to leave the house, now its usually around the end of the event. And when that anxiety sets in I know its time to go. and that’s ok. At least I went.
And when it comes to comparing yourself to other couples, just remember all the shit that went on between you and the POSH behind closed doors that you haven’t shared with other people. Remember those happy couples have their skeletons too. This is harsh but my dear 78 year old grandmother gave me some tough love when I was upset about now being alone “Well shit honey we all thought you and him were happy and the whole time you were going through hell. you think every happy couple you see has rainbows over their house like we thought you did?”. Not wishing what happened to us on anyone else but it reminded me that appearances aren’t everything.
I truly agree with you about the reality of what goes on in a lot of relationships (not all).
People are frequently using each other in various ways and it is not necessarily true that a single person is any lonelier than a coupled person.
There is still, despite this, much joy to be found in ties with others and the little things in life.
He is doing the best he can is one classy understatement. You are so mighty going out and about. I have read stuff about accessing each of the five senses to ground and reduce anxiety. Love your grandmothers summary too.. Go well with your gorgeous child.
But it is the truth. I really think the best he could do for us was leave. Luckily he filed for divorce so I know have child support and a custody arrangement.
Ugh! It’s terrible being screwed over by somebody that everybody things is great.
It’s really not my place… and your situation is so much more complicated than mine…. but in your shoes I would consider who you’re concealing the truth of your situation for. For awhile I carried on like I had a husbandly duty to protect my partner. Then I realized, I didn’t owe them that loyalty anymore. So now if someone asks, “how’s married life”, I tell them – it’s crap, i’m getting divorced. “Oh no, what happened!?” they say. “She cheated” I reply. “Oh no, I’m so sorry…”. “Don’t be, shit happens, I’m better off getting out”. I don’t ask for people to pity me and they don’t.
Obviously, like I say, not my place…but it reads as if you’re adding extra stress to yourself or taking on an unnecessary load by feeling like you ought to keep schtumm, and I’m wondering why you feel like you need to do that.
IIWII – there’s a special place in hell for asswipes like yours who not only cheat on their pregnant wives, but abandon them with along with the newborns. You should not ever feel the need to conceal his truth from anyone. In fact, I’d mention to every co-worker that ever inquires of him again EXACTLY what he did.
Them: How’s XX doing these days?
You: Actually, I should have mentioned this the last time you asked about him when I was pregnant, but he’s a serial cheater who killed our marriage by cheating on me while I was expecting his baby, and then abandoned me and the baby after he/she was born. Sorry if that’s uncomfortable to hear, but I’m done hiding his truth from people who may have really cared.
The more you say it, the more you release bits of the shame and his disgusting truth that ONLY belongs to him. I know that burden of shame and humiliation, and I was only able to release it, bit-by-bit, by offering up HIS truth when people asked what happened. After that, whatever they think – who the freak cares? Those people don’t have to live with you as you take care of your baby after the trauma that fucktard caused you.
Do your mind and body a massive favor and speak the truth about it. Eventually the words “abandonment” “cheating” “betrayal” “affair” and all the other words that describe why we’re all here become just that: words. They won’t sting as much over time by using them, as when you kept their horrible secret. Release them, and yourself. (((Hugs.)))
MightyChris & KibbleFree_MightyMe – Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I’m starting to tell people…..if that flat out ask. I absolutely agree I was keeping his secret. I was embarrassed, dealing with crazy hormones and I just did not want people asking me every single day “how are you doing? Are things getting better”. And I was still in the angry pissed off stage so I knew if I started talking about it I was go into way too many details like “oh and one time he said it would be better if me and the baby died because it would just make things easier” or when I asked him “how are you going to feel if in 29 years some POS treats your daughter this way” and he said “well if she is anything remotely like you she will deserve every ounce of it”. or when I deleted my snapchat account he text me “me and my family are sitting here laughing our asses off that you are so immature to delete your snapchat account because you have nothing to post anymore now that you have a miserable life”. (see i’m still a little bitter about these things) but I wanted to get to the place like KibbleFree describes. And I’m getting there.
Actually yesterday a coworker asked me “are you ok? I’ve been a little worried about you. and want you to know that i’m here for you”. I said “thank you I appreciate that. I’m not great but doing ok. POSH abandoned us. He decided a wife, a kid, and house wasn’t the life for him. So he left the kid, exchanged the wife for a girlfriend and the house for an apartment.
I SAID IT WITHOUT CRYING!
Thank you Chump Nation. Without y’all I don’t think I would be where I am at today. And special thanks to ChumpLady for pulling us together!
We get it, OOA.
We totally get it
Out of Ashes- I get it! I have been there too and it sucks feeling that way. Keep going on the trips and doing things that get you out of your home. In time, it will get better and you will think less about your X. If you go on this same trip next year, it will probably be better than this year – I can’t say it will be 100% better than this year but it will be better. Good luck on you journey!
Hey Chumped,
Why is it so important to get out of the house? I’m staying home. I visit with my neighbors, go for a walk with a neighbor, give the kids cookies, go to church, on weekends. But now that meh is rolling in, I am feeling content at home. I’m painting a picture. Trying things that require solitude. And liking it.
Getting out of the house being a good thing probably depends on a number of factors. Like, are you an extrovert or an introvert? Are there still painful memories in the house, or are you in a new place? If you are content at home, that’s great.
Thank you for the encouragement! Im hopeful every day. Doing the healthy things and hoping the emotions follow!
Keep reclaiming the places, the trips, the dates. One day I will reclaim the Maldives and will raise a glass of fizz in honour of your awesomeness, OutofAshes.
Thank you Gin! Thats what Im attempting to do because in my mind it is just letting him steal further! You go to Maldives and take it back!
Trust me, it wasnt anything you did or didnt do, but… even IF you did do something, they didn’t talk to you about it like a healthy adult. Knowing my cheater, they probably acted like they were happy, loving & you were thier soulmate. AND, whatever it was you might or might not have done, cheating is so massively disproportionate that it can never be justified like that.
Basically what I’m trying to say it, you can peel back the layers of that particular onion all the way, and you would still hit the conclusion that its them, not you. So, there’s no point peeling the onion at all; you’ll still get the same end result, but without painful tears and sore, red eyes.
Even if you had done the same to them, they are still responsible for their side.
It gets a little paradoxical of course in that scenario, but it’s still true.
You’re not excused to cheat, ever, not even if you were cheated on by that person. You still have to make that choice for yourself, that’s why they will always be at fault for what they did.
Yes. Especially if you are going to cheat on your wandering husband by banging somebody else’s husband.
Mine asked me:
‘Sooo, were you never tempted? Tempted to go and shag someone, to get back at me’
‘Nope, because then I’d be as big a c*#% as you are’
Four hours of sighing and a huffy pouty face.
I agree there is NO Justification for Cheating!!!
Exactly
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(just making up the comment length)
Thank you! He did all those things during his 5 year affair. So everytime a “soulmate” memory pops up from that time period I have to tell myself.. Hey that was a lie and he sucks! I try not to go deeper. It only hurts me. Like you said there is no point in doing so.
It just hurts more some days more than others. Blahhh
We get it – it’s hard being the only single parent. But the good news is it gets better, the first time going alone to something you usually did as a family is always the hardest. I remember feeling so awkward and miserable the first time I went to a school function alone, and cried all the way home in the car. Last time I went to one, I didn’t give it a moment’s thought, and was amused by the married parents who were hypersensitive about going solo (because partner was away for work etc).
The poster says she is not a parent. OOA is incredibly brave. I recall the first family event I went to after D-Day. A family wedding where my kids and I were seated out in the hinterlands at a table with parties who called off. My children were asked away to sit with their cousins. I was left at table alone, and anytime I tried to get up and socialize I was immediately asked where my husband and stepdaughter were. My stepdaughter had happily attended the shower for the wedding but her dad had since told her Schmoopie and he were a family now.
I went outside and discreetly quietly sobbed behind a decorative wall like I had never before. I forced myself back into the ballroom bathroom to try to face my kids after my presence had been noted. My sister in law pulled a place setting from the empty table and had me join the aunts and uncles.
I was so embarrassed. But I have never felt more entirely alone in my life. OOA, you’re an absolute Rock Star!
Thank you! I dont feel like a rock star so that is great to hear. 🙂 It just sucks that we innocent ones are the ones left holding the bag.
It’s stories like these that make me wish there was one of those terminator machines going around the world executing cheaters and their APs
I feel ya, Luz. A friend invited me on a trip to Hawaii around my first birthday after Dday. At the last minute, another couple also came along, so it was my friend and her husband, and the other couple… and me. Jesus. I remember sitting around a bonfire one night, everyone all snuggled together and I could feel myself losing my composure. Asked my friend to drive me back to the cabin, though that was embarrassing in & of itself. But by that time I felt like I was already walking around naked, for all the world to see my pain & shame anyway, so I was left trying to keep the most private bits covered, if you know what I mean. — Since then, it’s better. But I confess there’s still a part of me that sometimes looks at other couples and wonders why I don’t get to have that anymore. Then I remember I know nothing about their actual marriage and people would have said the same thing about me & XH not six months prior.
Your Hawaii story made me realize something.
When my ex and I were together, we had a number of single friends, some quite bitter about it, so I was always considerate of their feelings and didn’t do many PDAs with my ex in front of them when we were doing group things with these friends.
After I found out about my ex’s affair with one of the aforementioned single friends, one of his many lame excuses for it was that he thought I didn’t love him anymore because I was rarely affectionate with him in public. So to follow that crazy thought to its logical completion, I am responsible for my ex’s cheating because I was too considerate of his affair partner.
::eyeroll::
I feel you all, also feel as though I’m walking around naked
Me too. I really envy people are together on a daily basis. I miss being attached…actually I miss what I thought I had…which wasn’t real. My imaginary husband was a fantasy.
I have a boyfriend…but God, it’s just so much work. If we don’t work out, I just don’t think I will ever go to the trouble again.
I totally agree with the amount of work! I’m also in therapy and apparently the research shows this:
The happiest people to the least happiest:
1. Married men
2. Single women
3. Single men
4. Married women
I thought this was interesting! For what it’s worth.
The sad part for me is that I was already at that point when I started dating STBX. I told myself that if this one didn’t work out I was done with men. I thought I was so fortunate to have finally found a keeper and now this. It doesn’t exactly give me confidence for the future. My dream man turned out to be a nightmare.
The old Depression.
Must be chapter 1 in the Cheater textbook.
Before I put all the pieces of my wife’s affair puzzle together, I could tell something was up. I asked what going on, “I’m just depressed.”
Told her she should try therapy, she tried another penis instead.
Oh yes, he said he was depressed and didn’t want to end up like my parents….and cried. I bought a book on depression (from Amazon) and the depression story changed. He was pissed that i bought a book for him. The story changed from depression to “we’re just friends” in the mater of a month. Depression all gone!! Well, in the middle of that month, he contacted a therapist. I wasn’t invited to go. He did go to at least one session. But hat was after I kicked him out.
It’s all about character….theirs. Or lack there of.
OH YES! That was the first thing I got too…”I’m really depressed, I don’t enjoy anything anymore” Chumpy me said “Is it me? Do we need to go to counseling?” How would I not know if it was me… He agreed to go to counseling said it’s just everything. It took me a few weeks to get an appointment and he asked what was taking so long. I said well I thought a male therapist would be more comfortable for you. His reply…”Doesn’t matter, this isn’t going to take long?” I said what is that supposed to mean??? Duh…
His reply “Oh nothing, it’s just a few issues to work through” Righto dude. He destroyed me in the 2 sessions we went to! It was ALL about me, my failings he was a complete innocent victim. I had no clue, could not stop sobbing. Then he wanted to know if I was OK? Ummm, NO! All before I found out about the affair. He attacked the very essence of my life work, which was being a wife and mom to our blended family of 8 kids for 19 years. “Oh everything you did backfired, We had a bad run, You are always trying to make everyone happy and you can’t!” So sorry pal…Live and learn!
50Chump, she probably thought you meant penis therapy. You know, the female version of the vagina therapy my ex tried when he was “increasingly unhappy in the marriage”. Or maybe they mistook “coupling therapy” for couples therapy? 😉
LOL… this one Beth: “They mistook “coupling therapy” for couples therapy.
Mr. Sparkles must’ve thought “couples therapy” meant having adulterous sex WITH other couples (and women, men, groups, etc.).
Should’ve bought him a dictionary for Christmas.
As a librarian I have to protest the waste of a good dictionary – unless you were going to whop him up the side of his head with it. If that was the case, by all means. 😀
Yes, I certainly got the “depression” excuse and I bought it …until he made it clear that his method of treating it was a plan to leave me and the kids. He refused to even try antidepressnats, at one point I said “So you are depressed enough to leave your wife and kids but you wont even try antidepressants?”
Yes
well there you go
Yes apparently mine was so depressed he was going to kill himself…so he said to my daughter way after the fact of him leaving. She even called him out on the obvious….”why didnt you mention it to anyone then dad “??? Good question. Better to piss off to the OW and live in your special shag pad on our joint money. Suddenly sad sausage isnt depressed anymore. News flash…depression doesnt switch off like a light. What he was describing was entitled frustration that he couldnt have what he wanted on his terms right now with no financial consequences (spent all the money before he left) and with his sparkly image intact . No wonder the fucker couldnt sleep properly before he left.
My husband was depressed all right. He was depressed that I discovered the existence of the OW. He flailed about for a while trying out different excuses (“I didn’t meet her until we were separated,” “She has lots of boyfriends (THAT’S an excuse??),” “She’s not the kind of woman I would marry (WHAT? You’re already married!),”She’s nothing (well, that one was true),” until he hit on “I’m depressed.”
He was so convincing in his presentation of depression that the kids and I started to worry he might hurt himself. (Looking back on this now, I can’t believe we actually fell for this schtick.) I urged him to get on Zoloft, which had helped me. He said he wanted to start therapy. He did try an antidepressant, for one day. I got a text message from him the next day asking if I experienced nausea on my antidepressant. I said no. The next day I asked him how he was doing, and he texted back, “I’m not depressed, I’m only depressed when I’m with you.”
That was the end of the “depression” excuse for him. He never went to therapy. It took a few days, but he accepted the fact that the Homely Homewrecker was now out in the open and he never looked back.
Me, too, 50. Though when I suggested therapy my ex-wife’s read-between-the-lines response was plainly, “No, wrong answer. What are YOU going to do to improve this situation?” That is, instructions to dance faster. Of course, she gave zero consideration to the idea of addressing her problems with therapy.
One of my takeaways is that anyone who balks at the idea of therapy is incapable of benefitting from therapy. Like forcing kids who hate music to take piano lessons and practice etudes: You can lead a cheater to therapy, but you can’t make them have character. And what we are dealing with cheaters, after all, is a mindset that is juvenile and oppositional. #makemehappynow
Personally….I would rather see a shaman than a Western trained “therapist.” Every kook, flake, whack-job and nutso I went to college with …..went for the psychology degrees. Scary.
Amen Nomar.
And most important thing for new chumps is that if you go to therapy/marriage counseling – and your cheater hasn’t stopped seeing the affair partner – the cheater is not working on the marriage so there is nothing to “counsel.”
A good therapist won’t provide marriage counseling if one party is actively engaged in an affair, or suffering from untreated addiction or extreme behavior. The person needs to solve those issues first before the marriage can be improved or changed.
Yet most marriage “counselors” will keep taking your money and offering sessions as if some progress is being made!
In the end, the cheater keeps cheating, but can claimed they “tried to work on things” because they went to a few “marriage counseling” sessions between horizontal therapy with their OWs.
GAckkkkkk….makes me crazy.
Yeah, and also beware if your therapist makes a big deal about preferring CASH payments, considering what I know of therapist STBX. Just sayin…
“You can lead a cheater to therapy, but you can’t make them have character.” Perfectly said! Love this, nomar!!!!! I got the “what did you do to contribute to this situation” crap in counseling with cheater as well. BUT, he started his second (that I knew about) affair DURING COUNSELING! Yeah, analyzing my failures is gonna help this situation…whatever. When we got married, nowhere in those vows did either of us promise to be perfect spouses. I distinctly remember “for better or worse,” but tough times bring out people’s true character, and he chose to cheat rather than have any character or integrity. That’s on him, not me.
Nomar
This is so true. My cheater promised to go to therapy and managed two sessions before stopping for never really explained reasons. I think the therapist was not the soft touch for his sad sausage act that he had expected.
I was well up on CL then and did not make any comment, just watched to see if he ever went again. Nope and now we are divorced it seems even less likely he will go. He mentioned it himself only once more when being very ‘cheater sad’ about the lack of interest (0) in him from our boys. It was making him ‘down’ but as I didn’t reply in any way I’m sure he was just flinging out a lure to see if I could still be hooked by that kind of message. If they don’t see the need or see any benefit or can’t be bothered then it is pointless to either expect them to go or to get anything from therapy. Mine even asked what he should go for, what should he say! I was stunned at that time at the complete cluelessness of him.
As a therapist myself I would say that relationship therapists are exactly that – they are looking at how to work on the relationship, their focus is not the one shitty person in it. Also therapists are people with their own views, prejudices, blind spots and gaps in training and experience. Find an individual counsellor that you trust and can work with. It’s worth a good search to get the right fit for you.
Therapy isn’t a panacea. Sometimes friends, family and a good pair of running shoes are enough.
The Traitor loved counselling, had counselling in his first 2 “marriages” too, had therapy for himself, all sorts, medication, etc. Said in MC that the only place he felt safe talking to me was in MC. See above what I said about his anger. He’s a genius at playing the therapist. IRL he uses all the psycho jargon, but in counselling he never did, pretended to be completely naive of the system. MC bought it.
He did say when we were first dating that one therapist had called him abusive, and ridiculed the suggestion. He played the poor alienated dad who lost his kids to the evil first wife.
Read Lundy Bancroft (Why does he do that), his book details the Traitor song sheet.
Every woman should be given a copy on her 16th birthday along with a contraception and safe sex package of goodies.
Yep, therapy is no panacea — well said! That’s coming from personal experience — my cheater IS a therapist, which hasn’t personally stopped him from sex addiction, alcohol addiction, tax fraud, lying addiction, you name it (it just taught him how to be more clever about hiding all the above).
BTW that karma bus is gaining on him. The credit card records we just got through the discovery process confirm an embarrassing at least 5 cruises and 20+ airline tickets spent on his favorite Nevada legal-brothel queen, and their side is now talking settlement…
“Therapy isn’t a panacea. Sometimes friends, family and a good pair of running shoes are enough.”
Yes! I have to admit that the dysfunction stopped when X left. I thought I could maybe use some therapy/counseling, but have found that being around my family, seeing friends, delving more into my hobbies and yes, a pair of running shoes really give me what I need. I feel like what I’m going through and my reaction to what I’ve been through is normal – that is a key thing. Sure there are days that are hard, but most days, I feel incredibly grateful that I don’t have to deal with X’s bullshit. Sigh…. It is the most liberating and alive I have ever felt!
Now, X on the other hand. He’ll never go to therapy, but boy, does the man child ever need it. As many others have shared here though, that’s the problem. It’s not that they don’t see, it’s that they disagree. I say, go disagree somewhere else then. I’m not doing that anymore.
“Therapy isn’t a panacea. Sometimes friends, family and a good pair of running shoes are enough.”
Thank you for saying this, Capricorn. I am not a therapy person. I am tired of people making telling me I need to go. I am trying to feel my way around on my own. Are there setbacks? Of course. But I feel the same would be true if I did weekly therapy. If I need to try something else and I’m finding no direction, I know it is always still an option (and I will try to keep an open mind about it and find the right fit for me). There is no cure all for this, but there is some merit in making a go of trying to make some sense of (or, more likely, accepting that there is no sense in) what happened and moving forward on your own. I don’t like feeling like just because I’m faltering that I need to be shoved into therapy and that’s the best I’ll ever be able to do.
I went to therapy for about 8 months. Did I have a good therapist? Who knows…..I had nothing to compare him to aside from the two times I dragged my ex to MC, but since he lied the whole time, I have no idea.
I took some things from it that were helpful, I felt some sessions were a waste.
I feel like I’ve gotten more education and therapy here to be honest. I wish I had found Chump nation a little sooner.
I have gathered a lot of helpful information here too…a lot of it having to with re-framing the situation, which is what I needed right up front to put a damper on all of the sadness and anger (still there, but lessened greatly). I feel like that’s basically what therapy would do. Sure, therapy is neutral, but I’m not sure if it would feel too removed…as opposed to when I read what everyone writes here and contribute myself, I know that I am in a safe and understanding place because you all know firsthand, and there is real emotion, experience, and empathy from which to draw and share. Then again, I suppose there is something to be said for having a “straight” person to foil my angry, grieving mess when that crops up…
Not to say I can’t find that here. I’ve greatly appreciated the wisdom of those here who are years out and stay to provide guidance for the newly chumped. Chump Lady sowed the seeds for a very good thing.
ChumpOnIt
I am also not much of a ‘therapy person’ and have not had more therapy since my ddays. I look at this like a normal grief process – it hurts but that’s normal. If I had got to six months or so and still felt I wasn’t getting anywhere then I might have considered that I was stuck and considered therapy to sort out my logjam but as it is I seem to be gradually improving. Therapy, good therapy anyway can be really tough and sometimes that’s not the best solution early on as much as finding a sympathetic ear and doing lots of self care. Deciding not to have therapy can also be part of unchumping yourself too IMO, gaining autonomy and deciding what’s best for you regardless of what others might think. Good luck!
Totally agree Capricorn! I did try some therapy in the wake of DDay and honestly, felt like I wasn’t getting anywhere. I was in deep denial and honestly, I don’t think what I was hearing from the therapist I went to was going to help me get out of denial. Plus, X and I were living on practically nothing and so I had to ask my parents for money for therapy and that is not a bottomless well. So, I had to do the hard parts on my own. It took me a long time to get out of the denial phase of my relationship and start working with total lucidity as CL puts it.
One thing that really awakened me to the fact that my marriage was completely dead is that I kept saying over and over and over, “I just don’t know what to do.” I would explain my situation to close friends and family and I would say that every single time at the end of the conversation. Finally it dawned on me that it wasn’t that I didn’t know what to do, it’s that I didn’t want to do what was necessary, which was divorce. I didn’t want to say that I dumped a huge investment + 12 years and never ending loyalty into a guy who wasn’t worth the bat of an eye. I didn’t want to admit that I was wrong and that everyone else was right about my X. I didn’t want to start all over again with my life and have nothing to show for the last 12 years except a pile of bills. I totally get why I didn’t want to admit all of this to myself, but once I did, things started falling into place.
I may not be better for having been played a fool, but I am better for being honest with myself. Could a therapist help with that process? I think so, but sometimes figuring it out on your own gives you such a sense of tenacity, you almost feel invincible. Like, I got this.
ChumpOnIt, It’s great if you felt that you wanted ownersip on your recovery process. I think it helps if a chump has a strong sense of self-efficacy and has some solid support from people who don’t fall into a lot of the bad assumptions people make about infidelity, “forgiveness” and divorce.
Where therapy can help a lot is if chumps struggle with denial or simply fail to see what is right in front of them. A good therapist helps you see from another angle and try healthier ways to make choices. It was very helpful to my that my therapist was crystal clear on the damage to me if I entertained reconciling with Jackass (not that reconciling was ever an option). For those who have been beaten down by manipulation and gaslighting, by abuse of one kind or another, and by spending years bending into a pretzel to please a sociopath, a therapist can be the guide to finding normal, healthy thinking again. There’s a lot of trauma involved in living with anyone who has personality disorder. And while some people can power through the flu or pneumonia on their own, others benefits from medical treatment; I think that hold true also with the psychological and emotional and physical damage from living with someone who has personality disorder.
“[S]ometimes figuring it out on your own gives you such a sense of tenacity, you almost feel invincible. Like, I got this.”
Exactly! I don’t mean for it to come off the way I do with therapy. I just want more ownership, and I feel like that means for me that I have to make headway myself. It might come more slowly, but seeing as how I don’t think the fallout from something like this ever goes away entirely, I’m fine with that.
Also, I seem to have had a backward experience from most here in that I refused to do the heavy lifting of saving the marriage right up front and put it square on him to start the process, since he was so hell bent in subversively destroying everything. Cheater, who is (now, post DDay) totally up on therapy…for himself…used the excuse of “you don’t like therapy!” as to why he wouldn’t take care of the particulars when seemingly so bent on making amends. Yup, just use my previous bad experience with therapy (from my teen years!) as an excuse why he wouldn’t take the reins and ownership of having shattered our marriage. From what I can gather, he either doesn’t get very helpful advice from his therapist (or is telling them what they need to hear so that he can hear what he wants to hear) or is just not listening to them. From “sex addiction” right into a relationship (possibly even started before our divorce was even finalized). Sounds like he’s just using therapy for his image management.
Much like you I refused to do the heavy lifting and put the onus on her to prove to me that she was doing stuff to save the marriage. But, I got 1-1 therapy for my own sake. It will depend on the therapist and how you use them/what you want to get out of them what your experience.
For me, what I needed was a neutral soundboard. If I took my problems to my parents, they had their own upset (they utterly loved my wife as a daughter-in-law) & their own baggage. My sister, the same. My brother is so loaded with baggage that talking about my cheating wife was me having to talk him through it. All my friends had opinions. The only person I had who would just listen to me talk, replay what she thought I was saying back to me, and not pass judgement (obvious judgement, anyway), was my therapist. It helped me put my own thoughts in order.
Not saying it would work for you or everyone, but this sounds very different to couples counselling (which, since I left it to STBX wife, never happened) or other’s experiences of counselling, where people have actively been given advice or told what to do.
I was very fortunate to have a good friend who’d been through a complicated and difficult divorce refer me to her therapist. The woman was absolute gold. She made a huge difference in my recovery and helped me navigate the results of a difficult childhood that caused difficulties in my life. She told me not to focus on what made my ex act the way he did, but on why I stayed with him.
I referred a friend of mine who’d been seeing counselors for 5 years and felt like she wasn’t making any progress…she saw my counselor and made progress in leaps and bounds over the course of a year.
I believe the difference is that this counselor was very good at working with family of origin issues. Just wanted to let people know there are great counselors out there, so if the one you’re seeing isn’t helping keep looking until you find one.
Thanks for the insight, MightyChris. While there are family/friends who are good at listening and try to provide neutral feedback as well as they can (just had a good discussion about it all with my grandma during a visit to my grandparents’), I know that I will eventually wear on my parents/friends/etc. at some point. I did experience my own parents’ baggage with the whole thing up front — they were struggling through it too…X had really blown us all out of the water. I know it’s not a question of being “strong enough” (I know strong people who are in therapy to work out/process the screwed up shit around them — because this stuff can be a mindfuck for all), and more having that neutral, non-judging party (if you’re lucky and have the right therapist!) who is paid to handle this heavy stuff…whereas our friends/family, as much as they want to, can’t necessarily deal as well as a professional. I suppose it’s partly how tired I feel just thinking about trying to find the right person…much like selecting medical doctors, not one of my favorite activities…then squishing it into my schedule when I don’t have full care of my daughter (which might be about 10-25% of my time). Sounds like excuses…just…not sure how/where to invest myself. It feels like the reservations I had about marriage counseling post DDay (part of why I put it on his shoulders)…I didn’t know if it was even worth saving at that point. Not that I think it’s not worth me trying to fix myself now, just that I’m not totally sure how to go about it. I’m trying to physically hash it out for now (boxing class, for the anger) while I mentally/emotionally process it a bit myself up front, at least.
Or, you can lead the cheater to therapy (my chumpy chump self) and then the cheater uses therapy to mindfuck their host.
Chumps- don’t find the resources for the cheater. Find and use the resources on yourself and kids to get mighty and kick the poo to the curb.
Since Ddays 1 & 2 (overlapping) 26 years ago, I BECAME a therapist myself (went to grad school after wreckonciliation to protect myself should day 3 come). So, by Dday3, while shocked because of seeming unicorn life and being the couple so many others admired…UGH…my response was quite different, shall we say. I lined up lawyer, therapist & CPA before confrontation. No dancing here. When it appeared schmoopie “didn’t understand” his breaking up, I threw hom the FUCK out & told him to find someone else to lie to and somewhere else to live. Filing is in process.
Sad sausage involved his childhood abandonment issues and being “lost.” I told it its psychobabble meant nothing to me. He just used crap from our former therapy to try to get me to reconcile, but I won’t budge. Ugh! What is there to save? I know who & what it is. FUCK his AP grief! How about my grief over the loss of trust, security, partnership, the death of the marriage AND the illusions of that marriage? I’m just getting started, folks! No, no conjoint sessions with my therapist. Bad therapists abound. Lots of them are narcs, too, and cheaters, enjoying that old power differential and hero image. I’m so glad CN is here for us…RIC almost sucked me back in, but you all deal in Mighty. I’m on a shit-sandwich free diet today. Color me grateful. Not yet to meh, but doing all I can to get to my Tuesday.
Fellow chumps, I feel your pain. Thank you for your courage to share it here and offer true hope and freedom to the rest of us.
Excellent diet LongingForMeh-ca, doing it right!!
Jedi Hugs!
Wee hoo, Longing!! You go, girl!
“Mindfuck their host.” Love your insight ANC. Stbx stopped arranging therapy appointments for 2 of my sons. He said it was because each had missed an appointment and he still had to pay. On further reflection this weekend, I think that was just an excuse. If he thought that therapy was going his way, he would have eaten the coast of two missed sessions. He wanted therapist to tell the kids it was mom’s fault and be nice to dad. When that wasn’t happening, he bailed.
Mine did this as well. I have finally discovered he takes things in (whether things therapist said or I said) and then pulls them out later with a twist.
STBX said he had got 6 sessions of free therapy from work to help him with his gambling problems. This was in June and he was still gambling at D-day which was the beginning of January. I can only imagine someone finding out about it and encouraging him to see someone. It obviously didn’t work and my guess that’s because he didn’t really want to do it and so was not going to benefit from it.
Pregnant Chump
Your is not the type to work on anything, PC. At best someone else will get to tolerate his behavior. It’s hard to sort out the person from the addiction and addicts will always have highs and lows. It will be his ride not yours. Be very careful PC. My life living with a father who gambled was not something I would wish on any child. You need to have minimal contact with him. Don’t let him suck you in when he’s on the up. The down always follows. Stay clear of that chaos.
Thank you I made the mistake of trusting him and his gambling problem once and that is what led me here today. He showed me who he was before I married him but I spackled over his lying and addictive behaviour. He stopped for a while (or at least he didn’t lie to me about doing it) he then was able to take it underground and found new ways to hide it from me. It was only on d-day that it all made sense again. He knew I trusted him and he used that to his advantage (he told me this on d-day like it was something to be smug about). I won’t make the same mistake again. I am as minimal contact as possible and I do not rely on him for anything. He is young schmoopies problem now no coming back from this now.
I bought into the whole RIC and examining what I may have done wrong, too, after DDay#1. Didn’t stop DDay#2 from happening and everything else since. The two positives that came out of it were:
1. I was able to set boundaries the second time and when he crossed them, recognize him for the POS he is
2. That self reflection and personal change improved other relationships in my life as well
I am not at Meh, but at least I am slowly healing without STBX in my life.
Yes. I notice thst I don’t tolerate toxic people and their behaviors anymore. I also don’t let them blame for their poor behavior. I tend to tell people exactly how I feel and how inappropriately they are acting. I’ve become bitchier and have pissed some people off. Oh well. It makes me no longer have to deal with them. Freedom from crazy is worth it!
sidenote getmefree- wanted to let you know that after cheater’s 6 hour to be continued deposition my lawyer took me into his office and said “you are going to get a good settlement. Still a long way to go but encouraging!
Yay~ I’m so happy to hear the update! You may recall on the general forum I had shared my experience — I fought for what was fair until the very end of trial. X was trying to steal everything we had worked 25 years for.
Judge ruled immediately after X’s attorney sat down: 70% of everything for me.
He said he didn’t believe one word out of X’s lying piehole!
Thank God I did not cave out of fear. In divorce, you only get one chance to get it right and the financial effects will last a lifetime.
Thanks to all of you for your support- it makes me tear up! Motherchumper99, I hope I can be so fortunate. My lawyer hopes he will be scared into settling because we have evidence of at least two scams to hide assets so far and if it does go to trial, a judge might give me more than 50% because of that. We will see. He is doing the narc thing and playing to win.
Feelingit,
Way to go!
TRUTH =VICTORY.
CN believes in you!
❤️
Keeping my fingers crossed for you, Feelingit!! Hope you get everything you deserve!
I like your lawyer! And I hope he’s right on target!
That is awesome, Feelingit! Keep at him.
Time to get a new therapist. Then report that quack to the board.
I went to a therapist – basically I couldn’t function – he had destroyed me. Blindsided did not see it coming could not believe that he could do this to me and our children. A man I loved and thought was my best friend was a monster and acted accordingly.
She asked what I needed from therapy (I wanted him gone and for me to cope with the loss) and she gave me the tools to cope – CL is right, choose your therapist wisely, the right one can help you survive til you are mighty enough to live again. My therapist gave me this poem and a year on – I still read it – maybe it might help someone else
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I fall in.
I am lost…
I am hopeless.
It isn’t my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.
II
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don’t see it.
I fall in again.
I can’t believe I’m in the same place.
But it isn’t my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.
III
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in…it’s a habit
My eyes are open; I know where I am;
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.
IV
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.
V
I walk down another street.
My second therapist gave me that same poem!
It’s a profound metaphor.
Oh god, this one pushes some buttons.
Its the first thing someone whose never been in our position seems to assume; “There must have been some reason”, “I’m sure she had her reasons”, “You must not have been fulfilling her needs”, “She wouldn’t cheat if there wasn’t something wrong in the relationship”.
I get it; people on the outside don’t want to cast blame on a particular person, so they comment on something being lacking or wrong in the relationship. Only, they don’t seem to get that by saying there is something wrong with the relationship, it shares out responsibility and blame, & pretty much says that the victim spouse did something wrong too. That effectively, we caused it.
Honestly this is just… look, we as a society and culture have a tendency to fall into the “middle ground” fallacy. You can’t say ‘well Bob is right and Alice is wrong” anymore, the common narrative goes more like, “Well, im sure that there are parts of both that are correct, & the truth must be somewhere in the middle”. It’s a societal problem, but the logical fallacy is easily demonstrated; Alice says 1+1=2. Bob says 1+1=4. Our therapist/middle ground fallacy would insist that the real answer must be 3, or at least somewhere between 2 and 4. But we all know that Alice is right and Bob is wrong.
Here’s a radical idea. Maybe the relationship was fine – until the cheating asshole decided to trash it. Maybe the cheater is fucking disordered? Maybe there is no justification for lying, cheating and deceiving. Maybe its nothing to do with us?
Now, I know this site is maybe 70% women at least, and I know I’ve read similar things from our female posters, but particularly as a cheated-on man, I constantly feel the judgement that as a man, it somehow must’ve been all my fault. If I manage to tell the full story, I usually get to the point of “oh, no, it sounds like she has issues”, but 1st reaction is still that I must have been a bad huband or somehow inadequate. Its only through having been able to see that, it was nothing to do with me, apart from happening to me, that I was able to find peace.
And of course, (some of you have seen from my other posts), my wife leant into that. She’s told her family that “we were having problems”. Strange, because right up until I caught her she was telling me I was a wonderful husband and soul mate – I even (sensing something was wrong (actually suspecting what it was but not letting myself believe it )) asked her a few times if there was anything she was unhappy about in our relationship, & she said no.
Honestly I’d focus on getting 1-1 counselling over couples counselling. Post affair relationships are a power battle for control of the narrative, & it just ends up being another platform for the cheater to exercise control & excuse themselves from taking responsibility for thier actions. Another trend for cheaters; avoiding responsibility at all cost.
Sorry if this isnt as eloquent as usual, this is a hot button subject for me. But boy does it feel good to vent.
“Post affair relationships are a power battle for control of the narrative, & it just ends up being another platform for the cheater to exercise control & excuse themselves from taking responsibility for thier actions. Another trend for cheaters; avoiding responsibility at all cost.”
Ha! I am starting to see this now, as X picks right up with another “relationship”, despite it probably being for the best if he didn’t for a while (prostitute use over most of our 6 year marriage). You word this insight into cheater logic very well. I also see it as a “Look! I’m good and/or worthy! Where’s YOUR new person? Oh, you must not be as good/worthy as I am” sort of slap. Joke’s on him…sure it would be really nice to have a partner (you know, like that one I had before and then lost/never had), but I don’t validate my goodness/worthiness via having an SO (or, from his perspective, a complementary set of genitalia).
Absolutely. Loads of them just slither between relationships, with no gap. They must interpret it as being in high demand. I see it as a person with a void in their soul.
I’ll add that I know as many male chumps in my personal life as female chumps, and they are all good men who were totally devoted to their wives. Chumps are equally blamed across the board, regardless of gender. Male chump? You should have cherished your wife, taken better care of her, and stopped being so jealous and controlling. Female chump? You were frigid and demanding, and you shouldn’t have been so shrill and unappreciative. The common narrative cares more about your status as a chump than your gender, in my observation.
I don’t know if this will make you feel any better or not, but for everyone who might or might not be judging you there are those who admire you.
A number of years ago, long before my own marriage blew up, I knew a man whose wife had left him. I didn’t know her, but I knew him. I knew he was a good man and an excellent father. I admired how he carried on in the face of something that must have been a very painful experience. I admired how he took care of his daughters and made their life secure. I never knew his ex wife, but I “assumed” she was a total bitch and a horrible person for walking out on her family the way she did. I don’t even know whether or not adultery was involved although its seems likely.
Anyway, there are people out there, even those who have not been through this, who will assume the worst of her not you.
Chumpinrecovery, I agree with this. I have dealt with both since my marriage blew up. I do not go into details but I am upfront about what happened and how he barely sees the kids now. There are those that want to stay Switzerland and those that think he is a POS. Regardless of which camp they are in, as long as they know me, they have told me that they admire me for holding all the pieces together. Those that don’t know me and are friends with STBX can think what they want as they don’t really have a place in my life.
Must agree, Chris, with your recommendation about 1-1 counseling. As an uber chump that went through 3 marriage counselors post D-Day, I only began to heal when I got an individual counselor. Each of the three marriage counselors began sessions with focusing on my issues and getting my ex to talk about what was wrong with me. The second and third one said to me that in situations where one spouse has cheated, therapy is usually more successful if the therapist can make the cheater feel safe in therapy (timid forest creature) before we start to focus on how the cheating has destroyed trust and what the cheater needs to do to work on restoring it. In all three cases, when we began to get to that part is when my ex said that this therapist wasn’t working for her. Could not stand the focus being on her and what she did.
Meanwhile, the therapist screws over the chump again while waiting for the timid forest creature to feel safe. I wouldn’t ever ever go to couples’ counseling unless I was looking for someone to help us through a specific disagreement.
What a Kibble Fest that must have been. Probably the only reason a cheater ever agrees to therapy is that they’ve monetized it (with kibbles and bitch cookies).
THIS… our marriage counselor said that if we stopped coming as a couple, and only one of us (me) continued to pursue therapy… that it goes to reason that one person will get well (me) and eventually leave the marriage.
SO… we stopped going and I didn’t go without him because I didn’t want to lose my marriage. How fucked up is that?
On the last D-day, I got a great therapist and have only moved forward since. Mr. Sparkles, still treading water doing the rinse/repeat approach to relationships. Kids are horrified. What can you do.
Here’s now I know that I have a quality therapist: I started seeing her on my own after DDay #2. After we did the whole “sex addiction disclosure” thing, ex wanted to drop his therapist (not coincidentally, ex’s decision to drop came when his therapist said the next step in his treatment was for him to look at all the pain and trauma ex had caused me and the kids) and do couples counseling with my therapist. My therapist said no. She said she was my therapist and would not be comfortable trying to counsel us as a couple. She viewed it as a conflict of interest. We never did do any couples counseling for which I remain very grateful.
I’m so glad you found yourself a great therapist ICSTMC. Full steam ahead!!
Couples counseling works if both are sincere. X manipulated our first therapist playing the role of the devoted husband/victim. In our session X began rubbing my back, telling the therapist how beautiful I am, and how much he loves me, pretending to wipe tears from his eyes.
Therapist turns to me and tells me how fortunate I am to be married to X, who has so much love for me (in therapist slow quite voice), then asked me how much I drink.
Sociopath X had the therapist convinced I didn’t appreciate X and was drinking. No mention of X’s porn obsession and lack of interest in our relationship.
Clearly I was lying, therapist witnessed X proclaiming his love for me, and how in awe he is of beauty while rubbing my back with tears in his eyes.. unbelievable.
X and I get to the car, proud of his performance, he bursts out laughing.
Our first therapist asked him point blank: was there any cheating? (we were discussing lying and withholding information from me about his social apps use). I will never forget his resounding “no”. It felt true, but at the same time didn’t. I learned 2 years later, through my own devices, that he had something going on again with a coworker (different one). No cheating technically, as she confirmed, but still an involvement (that he tries to give unbelievable excuses for – my friends dared me). So then I remembered that “no” and was able to understand what it meant. It was “no, but…”. Another lesson in trust your instincts, you don’t need to wait to understand why they “ping” (chumps, justifiably, wait for rational reasons to finally emerge all the time). You just need to abide to the fact they do.
Omg Brit, what a sociopath your ex was! He knew exactly how to con that naive therapist.
Well that’s a problem; finding a sincere cheater!
Sounds like you are well shot of your X! What a sociopath.
You should vent. Cheating isn’t a gender issue, as CL states.
I hope that more women chumps read posts like yours and from other male chumps to realize then entire male human population is NOT made up of assholes. I have my own real-life examples who I have known my entire life and also a significant portion of my adult life, so it’s crazy to say all men suck. Just the male sociopath I married and his enablers suck.
Vent away, male chumps!
Mighty Chris,
I couldn’t agree more. A friend of mine many years ago was accused of inappropriate behaviour around a female colleague. He had a hard time knowing that most people would assume ‘there’s no smoke without fire’ or ‘it’s a bit him and a bit her’. He was adamant that he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing. It was not 50/50 or any variation of but 100% vs 0.
After a year he was completely vindicated and yet many colleagues felt really sorry for the woman as she must have ‘issues’ and condemned him still for not seeing that and being more careful.
Taught me a lot about this kind of thing.
I find the opposite, more often I hear that the woman is at fault in those scenarios, but it’s all anecdotal
The asshole I’m divorcing actually told me that in this society it was always to be my fault that he cheated on me. It was such a childish thing to say, and it had the automatic effect of making me lose all respect for him. I could be responsible for the death of our marriage. But I always refuse to even have the small influence over his behavior. As we say in Spanish, pendejo.
FWIW, according to Google analytics, the site is about evenly divided on gender. But women comment more.
Cheating is a character problem — not a gender one, or an orientation one.
I assumed (wrongfully) that it was more men than women cheating, but there have to be a significant amount of women cheaters for all of those asshat men.
Of course my luck is that my fuckwit’s 2nd schmoopie a 20-something singleton fawning over a married man. I did have lunch with a friend over the weekend that helped me open my eyes to some positives in this (and she hates the asshat now). Schmoopie doesn’t have her own kids absorbing Dr. Disney Dad’s resources. Kids are teenagers so can care for themselves when dad is too busy banging schmoopie to be a dad. She obviously has poor judgement but doesn’t have a drug problem or criminal history as she passed the background check to be an assistant soccer coach at the kids school.
MightyChris, after the numbness and shock wore off and I started feeling again I started worrying what everyone would think. How humiliating for your wife and kids to shit where everyone eats. Either people think you’re a horrible spouse or people feel sorry for you. I didn’t want any of those options. I love how you’ve changed from Chump to Mighty!!
Good to know, I’m only surpised since I read that the % of men who cheat is higher than the % of women. So i’d assume being a cheated on man is less common. But maybe its just underreported, especially since I think men are more likely maybe carry a misplaced sense of shame.
I mean, I talk openly about whats happening to me and the people around me tell me I’m ‘inspirational’, ‘dealing with it in such an amazing way’, etc, in a way that makes it seems like what I’m doing is unexpected and not normal. It’s normal to me! But, I do also get a very fine sense of ‘are you sure you want to tell people about this?’. For me, I know its not my fault, I just had the misfortune to fall in love with a bad character who was going to cheat sooner or later, its nothing to be ashamed of.
I guess I was referring more to the way society judges the chumped. I know some women feel judged in a similar way, but particularly as a man I feel there is judgement as being weak & inadequate, even though I know I’m neither of those things. Note the horrible creep in usage of the term “cuck” as an insult. I think women get judged as being to blame as well, but in a different way. That’s all I was getting at.
“Chris The Mighty”,
I know Tracy is in now happily with another male Chump.
I am too.
His story of betrayal is different from mine (as newlyweds, rather than 30 years in) but no less horrific.
From what he’s said, I think male chumps are less likely to speak out because of the assumptions as you described above. But more than that, it’s the “Guy Code” of never showing any weakness or deep emotion that might prevent their reaching out more.
I know that in the case of my personal He-Chump, most people had no idea the depths that he suffered because of his Ex.
But I know for a fact they ARE out there, and suffer just as much as we do.
They might just need to give themselves permission to use self-release valve for the emotional vomiting… 🙂
CN is good for that.
@MightyChris – I’m so sorry that there does indeed seem to be a disgusting tendency to treat lady, but not gentlemen chumps, as victims. I’ve heard the (false, cruel) assertion that, “Men ~ even those in happy marriages ~ cheat because they can, whereas women only cheat as a ” Terrible, untrue hogwash.
Gosh… my comment got truncated. …”whereas women only cheat as a cry for help.” Terrible, untrue hogwash.
Mighty C I think I get exactly what you are describing. Thank you for expressing it so well. I think we all (men and women) receive what you call the “middle ground fallacy” where the assumption is that the victim must have contributed to the crime. That is a great term for it btw. But I agree, I think men face this default assumption more pervasively and more stubbornly. Think of physical domestic abuse. The generic image that pops into mind is that of a drunk man and a frightened woman. Yet statistically men are actually slightly more likely to be the recipients of such abuse. It may be a bad example, but I think public perception is like this…more inclined to accept women as victims and men as perpetrators. And when you add to that the overall public ignorance about the existence and nature of personality disorders, you get an uninformed public imagination that sees everyone as largely being like themselves (mentally healthy) and then has to make sense of evil by inventing a cause. “I would never do this unless I were driven to it, if even then…so there must be a reason.” Chumps are the nearest proximate origin for that cause. When you take knowledge of cluster B out of their calculations, they have nowhere else to go in comprehending it but to assume some sort of vague shared cause. And this is nothing less than a revictimization of us borne of ignorance, all to often a smug ignorance. To clarify, I think this is faced by all of us. And not saying men have it worse in all aspects of being cheated on. In fact, I think there’s a chauvinistic element in society that generally dismisses women by saying that “its natural” to expect a man to cheat. But on this point – the shared blame fallacy – it certainly feels like it’s a taller order for a man to get out from under it.
TKO, other info aside, your assertion about domestic abuse is completely false. Do some research, sounds like you are getting some of your information from MRA sites that post bullshit statistics.
As a survivor I take great exception to your statement: “Think of physical domestic abuse… Yet statistically men are actually slightly more likely to be the recipients of such abuse.”
That statement is false and does a lot of harm when such violence is still not taken seriously enough. Women are far more likely to be the recipients of physical abuse and more likely to be killed or suffer major injury.
From current DOJ reports:
• In 2008 females age 12 or older experienced about 552,000 nonfatal violent victimizations (rape/sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated or simple assault) by an intimate partner.
• In the same year, men experienced 101,000 nonfatal violent victimizations by an intimate partner.
• The rate of intimate partner victimizations for females was 4.3 victimizations per
1,000 females age 12 or older. The equivalent rate of intimate partner violence
against males was 0.8 victimizations per 1,000 males age 12 or older.
• Female murder victims (41.5%) were almost 6 times more likely
than male murder victims (7.1%) to have been killed by an
intimate.
Datdamwof, you are incorrect. Women are NOT “far more likely”, in fact they are less likely, to be the victims of domestic physical abuse. If anything is not taken seriously, it is violence against men. Societally, wife beaters are rightfully considered a pariah while abused men are just a punch line. Your attitude of calling it “harmful” to correct that double standard with facts is shameful.
Your data from 2008 is outdated (where you even manage to relate it to my point which is about DOMESTIC ABUSE). The latest report on such violence from the CDC in 2010 shows that the public campaign aimed at male perpetrators has worked in reducing domestic or intimate partner violence against women. But the rate of intimate partner physical violence against men has continued unchanged and now exceeds female victimization. Here is pasted a part of a summary of their study. The full CDC report (see Tables 4.1 and 4.2) is here:
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf
Please be sure to read the CDC’s report for more information about how men are ALSO more frequently the victims of domestic psychological abuse:
SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence.
Physical violence
More men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence within the past year, according to a national study funded by the Centers for Disease Control and U.S. Department of Justice. According to the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (hereinafter NISVS) released in December, 2011, within the last 12 months an estimated 5,365,000 men and 4,741,000 women were victims of intimate partner physical violence. (Black, M.C. et al., 2011, Tables 4.1 and 4.2) 1 This finding contrasts to the earlier National Violence Against Women Survey (Tjaden, P. G., & Thoennes, N., 2000)(hereinafter NVAWS), which estimated that 1.2 million women and 835,000 men were victims of intimate partner physical violence in the preceding 12 months. (One-year prevalence “are considered to be more accurate [than lifetime rates] because they do not depend on recall of events long past” (Straus, 2005, p. 60))
For those following this particular thread, please see CL’s comment below. There is no reply option to it so I’m doing so here.
I am sorry I went too far afield in making my point. I am not trolling here to advance any “men’s rights” agenda. I have been physically attacked by a cheating and professionally diagnosed BPD wife. I had long ago heard of the statistics on this Intimate Partner Physical Violence and was amazed by it. I used it as an example in my first comment above. I even thought at the time it might be a flawed analogy. When told however that is was wrong and I was “harmful” for mentioning it, I went too far in expressing my anger at this kind of denial of my experience and the experience of far too many like me. The fact I stated is accurate and comes from the CDC report, not a men’s rights website. But I got off my original point and probably sounded like I was in turn denying the full picture of what women face. That was not my intent The stat I offered was accurate but it is only a small part of the whole story. The same CDC report I referenced additionally shows the number of women who have been abused “in their lifetime” far exceeds that of men. Women also experience a clear majority of the most serious harm from both rape and physical abuse. While I never claimed men “experience more physical abuse” it could be loosely taken that way. I was referencing a CDC stat that showed men currently (for the 12 months preceding the 2010 study) experienced intimate partner physical abuse in greater numbers than women. This doesn’t mean it’s more abuse. It isn’t. I would expect and the data shows men are not the worst harmed. It also doesn’t encompass all forms of abuse (rape, stalking, etc). I didn’t mean it that way either. And it doesn’t cover all of history by any means. Not even close. I simply meant what I actually said. I didn’t mean to demean the excessive and more often more damaging abuse faced by women.
Please do NOT bring men’s rights bullshit on to my page with this domestic abuse crap. Women are hugely, disproportionately the victims of domestic violence — NOT MEN. I am NOT going to litigate this here. You have been warned. Anyone who wants to read more on this can check out http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/01/warren-farrell-mens-rights-movement-feminism-misogyny-trolls/
This site is a safe place for EVERYONE who has experienced infidelity — which is abusive. But I STOP at the nonsense that men experience more physical abuse than women. STFU and go away.
I think you got me perfectly there. Not trying to say it’s overall better or worse for women or men just…different. It’d be like comparing your dogshit sandwich vs my catshit sandwich … a shit sandwich is a shit sandwich…Something we’re all very familiar with.
Like all things, unless you lived it you don’t understand it. It really doesn’t matter what other nonchumps think, they haven’t walked the betrayal maze of pain, home destruction, violation of space, health, etc. it also does t matter what sex you are, this is a nondiscriminatory action. I have been through4 therapists. The first three wanted to talk about him and why he was cheating, or our marriage relationship. I started thinking I really was the problem since I couldn’t even relate in a therapy session. Then I went to a hypnotherapist who is dealing with my pain and perspective on my self worth and vision for the future. That works because I don’t want to talk about the past. This is different experience from other therapy situations-it is more like PTSD. You don’t keep taking the injured soldier back through the experience. You have to relieve her/him of the vision. Maybe one day, right now I need to get out of bed and go to work, and put one foot in front of the other to get through each day. And I have to get my mind off the cheater and his whore. I’m feeling better. It is a fucking shit show for awhile. It is like the song. Don’t count your cards at the table-the time for counting is when the dealing is done. I’m still at the table. Hugs all my fellow chumps. Find joy in today!
I too am a hypnotherapy fan! About 2 months ago, I was the first person on scene to the aftermath of motorcycle meets car, and I had to do CPR( with others) for 15 minutes on someone who had clearly died 5 minutes in-the emergency operator was insistent to keep going until the ambulance got there, it was a country road and the ambulance took a long time…Anyway I had anxiety to the max, i thought my head was going to explode, i had flashbacks , driving was awful-hypnotherapy saved me. I had booked in before all this happened to help me deal with bad habits, and I turned up a quivering wreck- My poor hypnotherapist got more than she bargained for! 3 sessions and the anxiety has gone- and the bad habits are improving, I’ve never had such rapid relief from anything before- and I’ve had counselling, antianxiety drugs, antidepressants
Hypnotherapy is awesome!!! I only wish I had tried it sooner
I agree. People really don’t know what being in a cheating marriage/relationship is like until they have been in one. I’ve talked with a lot of people about getting my divorce and the reaction I see more often than not is blank stares. As in, “What? I have no point of reference for what you are talking about?” They tend to start forming a point of reference as I continue talking, but really, it’s just not something that has a point of reference until you have it done to you. Admittedly, I thought the same thing before DDay. I thought there must be some sort of culpability in the un-offending spouse. I was completely naive to anything else. Our societal influences really really do infidelity a lot of disservice. Media paints the picture that infidelity is sexy and that spouse over there behind the curtains, you know that forgotten sod in the wing, they are the worst kind of person alive. They MADE them cheat.
Can’t thank CL enough for helping to change that narrative.
That’s why GREAT individual therapy can help even if a chump isn’t sure about what comes next. Great therapists help us figure out who were are, what got damaged, and where we want to go in the future. My therapist almost never talks about the past; I was refer to it and she draws the line from there to today and tomorrow.
“I just had the misfortune to fall in love with a bad character who was going to cheat sooner or later, its nothing to be ashamed of”
Yep, my Cheater actually said to me… “if it wasn’t her, it would have been someone else.” How’s that for a quick look into the disorder mind! And I actually stayed another 4 years until he did it again ????♀️… I cringe just thinking about that!
My cheater never said that to me, but on reflection I believe it to be true. It’s simplistic, but given how much of the cheater behaviour reported on here is shared and common, I’m just going to assume that if one person’s cheater was fool enough to admit it, the rest are probably thinking it, but are more discreet.
I think what that really means is “this is just the one you caught me with, there were others” but hell, I’m cynical that way.
You’re probably right. At least my STBX was so inept at cheating that I can’t believe there were others! For all her faults, I knew her so well that it was immediately obvious – the thought kept crossing my mind for about a month, but I refused to believe it.
I pity the guy that follows me. She’ll be practiced at hiding it.
My cheater said this to me, verbatim.
“If it wasn’t her, it would have been someone else.”
I had no snappy comeback at the time; gobsmacked as I was.
But like DatDamWuf surmised:
“This is the just the one you CAUGHT me with…”
Yep. Turned out this was true.
I am only today finding out the full extent of his escapades. Hindsight being 20/20 and all…
Thank goodness I am at “meh” and couldn’t give a rat’s ass anymore.
Yeah I also got “if it wasn’t her, it would have bene someone else” as a reason not to blame her. He didn’t like it, however, when I said “well then there is really nothing special about her so no reason to stick with her”.
This also means that she didn’t have to take on the role of selfish self centered home wrecker. She could have let someone else take on that role, but she chose to take it on herself so now she gets to live with title. He gets to do the same as he conspired to break up her family too.
Hilarious comeback “well then there’s really nothing special about her…”
You can almost hear the gears grind in his underpowered cheater brain the moment you said it.
You are not alone! My cheater said those same words to me. I stayed four more years and he continued with the same OW. It took me a very long time to forgive myself!
I think it’s under reported, male chumps to female cheaters. My unscientific 2cents.
It would be interesting to study this based off of CL data; it would completely shift the narrative.
Hypothesis:
-Men are more likely admit being a cheat bc they feel on some level it shows ‘dominant’ traits
-Women are more likely to report being cheated on, because women are less irrationally concerned with losing face that men
Result: Man on Woman cheating is highly/accurately reported.
-Women are less likely to admit to being a cheat bc they feel more harshly judged than men for infidelity
-Men are less likely to report being cheated on because they feel there’s a taboo in being a cheated-on man
Result: Woman on Man cheating underreported.
Overall: Distribution of bad character is probably much more even than previously understood.
Conclusion: All cheaters suck!
OutofAshes….. You are not alone!! You. Did. Not. Cause.Him.To.Cheat!
They chose to do it. Their character! Their choice! You are not responsible!!
I have struggled with those same feelings. I realize that I did everything I could to encourage mine and help him when I thought he was going through a depression. Obviously it was not a depression.
Long term marriage here with kids. When thing began to unravel and I questioned some things, the lies, gaslighting began. He has denied an affair and I’m still here for now.
I’m so sorry! I’m praying for you! Please understand this…….. His character deficiencies!! Not yours!! It still hurts I know!!
Thank you! Praying for you as well. We were together 22 years. Old vacation habuts die hard 🙂
“Now then, cheaters — let’s say for the sake of argument — were confronted with the same stressors: depression, lack of love, sucky marriage — so why didn’t THEY dance furiously, book shrink appointments, and ask themselves how they could change?”
Oh, how many times I asked myself this question, even years before learning about the betrayal going on (but while it was going on). Later he will claim that he needed to look for comfort and attention outside the relationship because he felt “not accepted at home and like he couldn’t talk to me”. He never ever even tried to talk to me about anything! I never got a chance to fix his “unmet needs”. I always tried to confront him about our issues, but all I got was stonewalling and denying there was ever something wrong. I asked questions about our relationship, including the presence of other women, and got gaslighting and paltering.
How many times I wished I was with a real man who would sit me down at the table and tell me we had stuff to discuss. I thought he still had to mature (we were young).
After the biggest D-Day, he was taking initiative and doing the work, and I was proud of him for that…only to learn he was still lying through therapy. He never came clean on his own. The behavior maybe stopped, but the entitlement sure didn’t and still lives on strong to this day. I hope he enjoys the company of his large ego now that he’s alone with it.
“He never ever even tried to talk to me about anything! I never got a chance to fix his “unmet needs”. I always tried to confront him about our issues, but all I got was stonewalling and denying there was ever something wrong. I asked questions about our relationship, including the presence of other women, and got gaslighting and paltering.
How many times I wished I was with a real man who would sit me down at the table and tell me we had stuff to discuss.”
Yes! The idiot poofed and blamed me for everything. He never, ever indicated we were headed to the abyss, and I remained under the false idea that we had recovered from his OW#1 nine years earlier. When asked direct questions about our status, he lied to me. And lied, and lied, and lied. For my fuckwit, it was not because he was a Snidely Whiplash, it was because he is an incredible coward who will cut his hand off before he dared to be vulnerable with me. Such a coward and a child. Passive aggressive, withholding, lying coward.
Hugs, Now I.C. I experienced the same bullshit (questions with no answers, when he knew damn well what he was doing) and feel the same exact way about my X. Passive aggressive, coward pieces of shit.
Hahahaha! Cheater DID tell me we needed to talk about HIS unmet needs, which were MY problems. What he didn’t tell me was that he had been cheating the ENTIRE marriage. No joke.
Cheater logic. And ouch. Better off out than in.
Cheater logic is an oxymoron.
And cheaters are Oxygen stealing Morons!
Exactly, when I asked cheater if he would go with me to counseling (he was already cheating unknown to me) he said, “you need to get help, this is your problem!”
Those misguided therapists are right about one thing. There is something you can do that will make the person stop doing to you what s/he is doing to you.
You can leave.
(You can leave the cheater and the therapist, indeed.)
You know my favorite thing (besides CL and CN) is the fact that I finally have words to what I inherently felt after DDay. Once I read the book and educated myself on cluster b’s (or just people with shite character), I had a vocabulary to protect myself against these knuckleheads. I believe that the marriage dance between a character disordered person and a overly responsible empathetic type is a real thing. BUT, taking it to the next level by saying that the behavior of the character disordered is somehow shared with their spouse is utter horse shit. I am not afraid to enter in to any conversation with any person who tries to sell that crap. Most people I have challenged really are just repeating what they read in some rag and get a look on their faces that let’s me know that they really didn’t think it through before our discourse. Others are either cheaters or affair partners of cheaters.
I am in healthcare and have come across numerous “therapists” who are of the “Esther Perel -I’m a more evolved and sophisticated person than you and your antiquated opinions” variety. I don’t give a shit. I still back them into a corner.
Videotape those encounters. Watching cheater-apologists get back into a corner with your awesome verbal skills would be great entertainment!
I have heard it from others on this site as well that people such as Esther perel ( even her name is dangerous) are putting their agendas out as fact and people just mindlessly accept them as authority. Bad spouses cause cheating is absurdly taken as truth.
By the same token, I think children need a relationship with their parents at all costs is another one. I ran into an acquaintance I hadn’t seen in a couple of years this weekend. I told her that I was divorcing because stbx was a cheater. She asked about his relationship with the children and I told her that it was not good. Immediately she said “children need a relationship with their father no matter what and that he would come around because he loves them. “. I said I hope so and stopped talking because I knew at that point it was hopeless.
Later, I told my adult daughter about the encounter and she angrily said why does everybody think you have to have a relationship with somebody who treats you like shit?
We had just gone through a week where stbx had sent her a text complaining that he had to discuss the $15 fast food gift card which he gave her for her birthday in a deposition that cost $2000. Per hour. No, how can I make it better?, just blame for costing me money. She broke no contact and replied and he told her she learned from feeling it.
He is mean and hateful and has now cut off all 5 of his children because they do not respect him which is 100% my fault. Society dictates, however, they need that relationship at all
Feelingit, my son won’t have anything to do with his dad either. He is 15. I asked him yesterday if he missed him and brought up that the longer he goes without speaking to him, the harder it will be to ever bridge the gap. I was in no way trying to force him into a relationship with him but wanted him to understand the consequences of his choice.
I then asked what upset him the most…what his dad did to me or how he has not even tried to become part of his baby sister’s life or if it was how he treated my son? He replied that the thing that bothered him most was his dad’s treatment of him. Why would I want to spend time with someone who cares so little for me and disrespects me (even though his text messages spout that he loves him, his actions and choices convey the real message). I can’t argue with that.
I do not spew everything about his dad, but if he asks me a direct question, I do answer it honestly. I know what it feels like to be lied to and manipulated so that you don’t have the information to make sound judgements. I can only pray and hope that the long term effects of his choice won’t mess him up too bad down the road.
I am finally coming to the realization that despite all these well meaning people telling me how important it is for the kids to have a relationship with their father, it is doomed to failure because he is disordered. It is like thinking you can make rocks float by continually throwing them upward- somehow gravity always wins.
My 2 oldest sons were making the effort to have a relationship, going to his house for dinners, going to therapy, trying to include him in their lives. As soon as they expressed any disagreement with his choices or expressed that they might agree with mom on something, he dropped them like a hot potato. They come to me wondering why he is texting them in the fashion of a 14 year old with hashtags and calling them dude. Why does he text them “stop the bullshit” and then accuse them of being disrespectful. He tells them they will never be respectful as long as they are receiving hour by hour propaganda from me. Son says, that is all in his head. Stbx thinks I badmouth him constantly. I am not going to say it has never happened but it certainly isn’t on the daily and most anything I say is in response to questions from sons about his behavior. He considers disrespect not agreeing with him. He has now unfriended son from Facebook and told both he wants know relationship with them and told them it is all my fault for alienating them.
Everything is feelingit’s fault. I wish I felt as powerful as he is making me out to be. I could rule the world????????.
Makes you wonder how they functioned in the family and marriage as long as they did. Was that just us smoothing things over or bridging the relationships? Was it just impression management that we all bought into? I mean, if this is who they truly are, why did it take so long for everyone to see it? The $50M question we all ask ourselves.
My oldest daughter (age 14) goes to dinner with STBX a couple times a month. Never lasts more than 1-2 hours. She says that they chit chat but never talk about anything important. She wants to keep him in her life, but a couple times a month is good with her. I can’t even fathom not trying to plan something more or longer, but if it works for the two of them, so be it.
FeelingIt–your daughter is right; no one needs a relationship with an abuser, even if the person is their parent. This is one of those outdated canards spouted by people who don’t know the research. Much of the dire news about “single parents” is confounded by the fact that too many single parents are in dire poverty, with very little support system or safety net. Yes, under those circumstances, only having one parent is not a great scenario. That info can’t be used to generalize to children who willingly forego contact with a parent who has betrayed the family.
Tempest, the world needs to hear your voice! I vote you do ted talks and hit the main stream media circuit. Where is your huffington post byline?
Ha! No HP articles to my name, but I do have a plan for changing the narrative on these topics over the next few months….
I agree hp is a lot of crap but that seems to be where public opinion is formed- hope you didn’t take that as an insult!
Not at all; just haven’t written anything…yet
You are awesome. 🙂
CL-
Thanks for winding everyone up on a Monday. Awesome energy and insights to help us all get MIGHTY! Cuz on top of the betrayal, we have all heard some version of “well, you never know what goes on in a marriage?’ which can basically be translated in any language as some combo of “you were 1/2 the reason it happened” and “how could you not have known?”
In my mind, the slop the cheaters/therapists and “friends” slime you with is like punching an assault victim who is still laying on the ground….
You have helped to make me (and I’m sure a thousands more) feel awesome! Thank you
Ahh yes the good old depression card. My response: oh here let me take on even MORE responsibility so you dont have to do a thing. Let me take your daughter out (was not my child nor were we married) so you can rest or get your own things done, here let me do all the laundry and take care of the animals, here let me research therapists while you keep your depression mask on ONLY for me and give you time to make arrangments with your side whores.
“I’d like to take this moment to ask chumps about their D-Days. Folks, when you discovered you’d been betrayed, and the bottom fell out of your world, your marriage was at an all-time low, and you were nearly paralyzed with depression — was your first response to go fuck another person?”
YES! I think whatever the first response of the chump is at finding out they are married to a lying dirtbag, is very telling of the state of the marriage.
Let’s look at the logic behind the RIC on their theory “what did you do to contribute to this?”
So by all accounts the RIC is working from the ASSUMPTION that cheating was an out of the ordinary behavior for the cheater…. a response to something you’ve done/not done, so the same must be said for the chumps response to the cheating right???
– The scramble to understand your spouse when you found out you’ve been cheated on… nope, not a symptom of a long term pattern of the marriage… simply a fluke brought on by the situation. Sounds like the response of a terrible uncaring spouse right? Not!
– The utter devastation at finding out the love of your life has been lying and deceiving you. That all sounds like the response of a cold hearted asshole right?
– Taking the reins, buying books, setting up therapists appointments… again sounds like the response of an univested spouse, right?
– The harsh smirky attitude of the cheater, insisting you must mind your own business and get over it already… nope, couldn’t be an indication of the state of the marriage because of their character, it’s simply a fluke brought about by a dense FOG surrounding the affair.
Listen up RIC, what does adding up all the intital responses tell you about the state of the marriage? It tells you who’s invested and who’s not! People invested in the ones they love don’t go out and cheat, they stick around and tend to their marriage. People not invested in their marriage don’t rush around buying up infidelity books and scheduling marriage appointments.
The LOGIC of the RIC is so ass backward I can’t believe anyone even falls for it, but they know desperation will have you consider even the most fucked up logic.
Speaking of logic… has anyone heard about the recent study that says cheaters are 3.5 times (I think that was the stat) more likely to be repeat offenders. Hmmm, this new research seems to be following a pattern of REAL logic. I think the tides are slowly shifting Around the infidelity topic … keep it up CL, I think we chumps might be making headway in shifting the infidelity narrative!
Very well summarized!
In stbx’s deposition last week, my lawyer asked him what I said when he told me he was a cheater and he replied: she said she wanted to work on the marriage.
Love this post gotabrain!
From the cheaters’ mom (who happens to be a shrink, coincidentally), I got:
“What he did was wrong. Understandable, but wrong.”
Sounds just like my mil- bitch!!!
Yes. In-law Family of therapists from low tier schools (as my kids say, Cs get degrees, and they’re proof) and he cheated with a therapist. When he begged to go to therapy I said “no female social workers” since Oedipus clearly knew what buttons to push. Then my female social worker therapist pulled the same crap on me – “he’s clearly told you the whole truth, why don’t you believe him? Has this been a pattern, your insecurity? I believe he’s being honest.”
Uh, no, he was lying thru his teeth the entire time. Ill never see a social worker for therapy again. It’s a narc-y field and too triggery for me, although I know there are great ones doing great work. It was a colossal mind fuck.
After I told theThe ric mc I went to during the pick me dance that I believed Styx had been cheating longer than he admitted, he responded: why would he have told you he started cheating two years ago if it had been longer. Now, I think, I don’t understand why he lies at all but he does. He is disordered, why would I think he would tell the truth is the better question.
That’s a tool for her to not have to act on her own initial opinion. Yes. It was wrong. But I’ll say “understandable” so I don’t have to face that my son is a shithead and throw some blame your way. Blech.
Maybe it was understandable because she knew he was an incurable shithead.
Lol! Ah, we can dream of having supportive MIL’s. I got crickets from my in laws. Trouble is, they know he is an incurable shithead, but they would rather not face it by complete silence. Let the shithead move on with wife appliance number 3 and see if SHE can change him…just as long as he doesn’t move back home!
It’s funny how when these cheaters are depressed, they truly have so much energy to spend on laying the ground work to pork someone else. They have to establish the mental connection with the person, as sex just doesn’t land on their doorstep when they exit the home. And after that, they need to interact with them, text, have phone calls, clandestine dates, etc. I’m amazed that they can do all this in their depressed state. So they are depressed when it comes to their partner, which is really another term for not wanting to be with their spouse or partner. Yet are so ingenious when it comes to finding someone else to have sex with, when the depression is non-existent then…
Leila, yes, it takes effort to cheat, make contact, flirt, planning, scheduling, conversations.
Imagine if they’d invest 1/2 the effort to make plans with their spouse or on their marriage and family.
X also claimed to be depressed, his mother was suffering from dementia.
Being a super Chump I made the extra effort to make his life easier, encouraging him to spend time with his mother. He snapped at me once saying I should be more understanding and not question him about our marriage. He isn’t that kind of guy to cheat, he has integrity!!
I walked on eggshells, not questioning him, giving him time alone to reflect, not asking prying questions, thinking I was helping our marriage only to find out later I was helping him Cheat.
Yes Brit, they claim depression, so we can leave them alone. Depression is also code for them not having to spend on ounce of effort on us. It’s basically, I’ve checked out, leave me alone as I don’t want to have anything to do with you anymore = DEPRESSION. And what do we do? We leave them alone and not bother them, poor souls, all the while they are perpetrating a fraud on us, by giving ALL their attention to someone else. How nice to be depressed huh… these cowards get their cake and get to eat it to.
Spot on, Kellia, “…. they claim depression, so we can leave them alone………..And what do we do? We leave them alone and not bother them, poor souls, all the while they are perpetrating a fraud on us, by giving ALL their attention to someone else.”
And then they later come back and excuse their behavior further by claiming “All you did was ignore me!”
It’s crazy making isn’t it FindingBliss! They can make any strongly sane person go completely bonkers.
Another miserable part of therapy is when you rattle off all of these soul crushing betrayals that the cheater has en acted on your life and the therapy gives you a milquetoast “hmmmmm” or says how did that make you feel? Well, bitch it made me feel like shit.
I can remember the exact moment when the healing started. It was six months from DDay #2 and I met one of my more colorful friends for a drink. I told him everything that happened and he said quick as lightning: that son of a bitch needs his Jaw broke. He didn’t blame me or asked me what I had done or even the old infuriating standby: How could you not know?
“Well, therapist, it makes me feel a deep-seated rage, as if I want to put a pillow over his head and then bury him in the Pine Barrens.”
In a weird way, D Day was liberating. Not that I didn’t dance, I did, but at that moment I realized everything she had said and done, all the abuse, rage, cruelty, mind fucking, all of it, was bullshit. Complete bullshit. Every time she tried to make me feel horrible, the premise was based upon the fact the she was a long suffering, devoted wife and mother. Yet, on D Day, I found out she wasn’t!
Here’s an example-when I grew weary because of the abuse, I withdrew. She’d say my depression sucked all the joy out of the house, but for since over a year before making that comment, she was fucking someone else.
It took a while to internalize what I knew to be bullshit, and some days are better than others, but I know she’s a piece of garbage now.
Two years ago I would’ve never been able to conceive of it being liberating. But you are right. I feel like I have a superpower now and maybe others on this board feel it too. It was hard one but it is real. When someone starts to bullshit me or gaslight me -I see it immediately.
I’m not bragging or trying to sound arrogant because I went through absolute devastation to gain this power. When I have ventured into the dating world and someone starts to lay some bullshit on me, or they start painting their Xs as this absolute villain’s villain, I just smile and I get this sense of peace. I see right through it.
Likewise it is helped me to Identify between sparkly sexy people and people who are salt of the earth but perhaps maybe dress like a 1940s house frau. And that’s OK. I’m going for the real thing. No more time for the pod people.
I’m going for character. ????
Go ahead and rock that super power, LoveDay! You’ve earned it.
I’m conscious of the absolute villian thing being a red flag, and it’s a tough juggling act because twatty is pretty fucking horrible as far as human beings go. I explain that my stbx is really a pretty terrible person. It’s who she is but that’s that.
BTW my reaction to bullshit doesn’t surprise me. It’s my reaction to basic kindness.
There’s very little understanding amongst psychiatrists about cheating and these sorts of dynamics; I didn’t hear one word of it during training. When we discuss or present cases where a spouse is accusing the other of infidelity and the other is denying it, the first conclusion people jump to is “delusional jealousy”. I point out that cheating / lying about it to their spouse and gas lighting them to the point of questioning their own sanity is far more common.
I believe that cheaters fantasize about cheating their entire married life, it’s a no win situation. You don’t realize that they are unhappy because they aren’t. They’re basically shallow people, who are just keeping their options open by never really committing to their marriage. They don’t discuss how they feel about things, because ‘what if their partner decides maybe they don’t want to be in a relationship afterall’ ? Then they’d be alone and they can’t have that. No, better wait until they find the illusive ‘dream girl/guy’. Understand , its not that these cheaters don’t think who they have isn’t good; it’s just, maybe there is someone better, more exciting, out there. If not, we’ll they can always stay in the marriage, right? No point in taking unnecessary risks! So instead, they troll around for years always on the lookout for a willing conspirator and as soon as they find one, they’re gone! Cheaters have huge character defects, they are self indulgent, jealous, immature beings with no moral compass. They have no idea what happiness is really about and frankly most of these so called therapists are just selling their crap theories to make a living. It’s not complicated one person cheated and destroyed the marriage and it’s their fault, PERIOD!
“Self indulgent, jealous, immature beings with no moral compass”: How perceptive — I’ve never seen a better summary of STBX’s personality in a single sentence. Amazing that there are so many of them out there.
AGREED!
When I look back on my marriage, I realize he set the stage from the start: No one from his work was invited to our wedding (but random people he hadn’t seen in over 10 years were), I was told that spouses were not invited due to cost at a big awards banquet that was held every year with an after bar and hotel stay (just learned this is absolutely not true and I could have gone this year with a friend)…all of this and more were to separate home and work, which is where all his affairs were.
In addition to that, he never did anything as a family that he didn’t want to do and he was always unavailable when I needed him. Sick kid calls from school? Never answered. Could you pick xyz up on your way home? Heck, whenever I called, he never would answer unless I called or texted repeatedly. All signs of a person who was never committed to the relationship.
I think that sums it up pretty good.
lyndaloo- What a great post! You are right, they aren’t committed from the start. And they do troll around for years to find a willing participant. And as soon as they find one, they’re gone. Your entire post resonated with me.