Paltering — Another Kind of Mindfuckery

Today’s guest post on those lovely little lies of omission known as paltering is by UXworld... Enjoy! — Tracy

A lie by any other name is still a lie (as Chump Lady so frequently reminds us), but a new variant of the dishonest bullshit we’ve all been subjected to has been given some new attention recently.

According to the dictionary, to palter is “to talk or act insincerely or deceitfully; lie or use trickery.” In the world of business and negotiation, paltering is a means of using ‘technically true’ information to get a better deal.

Paltering is psychological weapon for getting, or keeping, the upper hand.

According a recent Forbes article, paltering differs from two other deceptive practices:

  • Lying by commission — the active use of false statements (i.e., flat out denying that any cheating is taking place)
  • Lying by omission — the holding back of relevant information (i.e., never mentioning that cheating is taking place)

In contrast, examples of paltering would include any statements that allow the cheater to rationalize that (s)he is telling a truthful statement, while maintaining the deception so critical to cheating — for example: “I am not seeing Schmoopie at this time.”

What’s left unsaid is: “Right now. As I stand here talking to you, my lovely chump. See? You can’t say I’m lying.”

Kunty Kibbler was an enthusiast of this particular bit of mindfuckery. One of the more harmless examples she said during the throes of my attempts to get her to realize what she was throwing away. She said: “I want us to be able to look back on life and be able to say, ‘what a crazy, wild ride it’s been’.”

Sounds nice, doesn’t it?

And technically true. Left unsaid was that she obviously had no intention of looking back on life together with her husband. She wants that heartwarming bit of reflection solely for herself – and if I’m somehow able to say the same someday, that’s a minor kibble that she, in her awesomeness, is willing to toss my way. (In a far more insidious instance, she used several statements of paltering to lead the Carrot Singer to believe I was physically abusing her.)

Another article from the Harvard Business Review points to image management as the key motivator for paltering:

“Here is an interesting fact that explains why people prefer paltering over telling outright lies: It allows them to maintain an image of themselves as honest and trustworthy individuals (after all, their paltering was truthful). We all care about being good people and being seen by others as such. In fact, when it comes to honesty, we generally believe we are better than others.”

Yet another article from the Boston Globe notes:

One occasional advantage of paltering over lying is plausible deniability: You can blame any misunderstanding on the listener. Without knowing the speaker’s intentions, it’s difficult to diagnose paltering with certainty says Todd Rogers, a behavioral scientist at the Kennedy School and the paper’s lead author.

So, how best to guard against paltering?

Again, from the Globe article:

“If you ask a specific question, that specific question should be answered, not a variant of it,” Rogers says, even though insistence on clarification “often makes you look like a jerk.” Paltering relies on our tendency to trust others and not cause a scene. “It’s pretty amazing how much you can get away with because of people’s truth bias,” says David Clementson, a researcher at Ohio State University’s School of Communication, who was not involved in the study. “Paltering totally takes advantage of that, diabolically and deceptively.”

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AllOutofKibble
AllOutofKibble
6 years ago

I wonder how many of us still have any “truth bias” or the tendency to “not cause a scene.”

Jess
Jess
6 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

I was taught that anything said with the intent to deceive IS A LIE. Omission, commission, deliberate, whatever you want to call it… if it’s said with the intent to deceive, it’s a lie.

Free Vix
Free Vix
6 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

Not me. I’ve replaced “truth bias” with “instinct bias.” Nowadays when my instincts tell me that something is off, I take it seriously rather than assuming something is wrong with me for being suspicious.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  Free Vix

Same here, Free Vix. Though, my 180 is not making me any friends. Even otherwise kind and honest people seem to get irritated when I call a duck a duck. (I haven’t sussed it out fully, but I’m guessing I’ve lost a bit of tact along the way … )

Free Vix
Free Vix
6 years ago
Reply to  JesssMom

Well, I think it’s OK to get annoyed when otherwise kind and honest people refuse to call the quacking fowl in front of them a duck. So keep on calling out the quacker!

IHaveHate
IHaveHate
6 years ago
Reply to  JesssMom

JessMom….me too! Ms Nice Guy no more! Sad really.

I call it as I see it now and others think that I’m….. you guessed it!……..bitter!

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Free Vix

That’s what I’m also trying to cultivate but I find that it’s hard. 45 years of “be nice”conditioning to undo!

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago

It is really sad when you get to the point where you have to question the motivation of the merry Christmas and happy Easter texts!

Dragonlady
Dragonlady
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

Or Easter gifts WTF!!!
Especially when he never ever brought Easter gifts of any sort ever!!!!

coolbreezeout
coolbreezeout
6 years ago

Ah yes, my cheater did paltering quite well. I got to the point where whenever I engage with him even now, I make him define all terms and communicate in writing. It is absolutely draining having interactions. I feel like part lawyer/part private detective.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Exhausting but a necessary evil. Exactly.
The STBX and I are still in the process of getting divorced, and he routinely accuses me of not writing my own emails (he thinks my emails to him are written by my lawyer). I write everything so specifically it’s difficult for him to equivocate (though he still manages occasionally).
I don’t correct him, I don’t mind that he’s afraid my lawyer is involved in every decision. Instead, I just take the backhanded compliment 😉

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  SomethingNew

Funny! On a similar note,my son told me my stbx is so paranoid that whenever he talks to him and son strays off what stbx thinks are acceptable topics: fishing, hockey or school, stbx always asks did your mother tell you to say that? Son responds everything is not about mom!

GlassHalfFull
GlassHalfFull
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

This is classic ExH. It’s easy to see now, and it’s not as hurtful as it once was when I hear even MORE about his bullshit–but I am glad it has a name. Paltering. That’s fucking AWFUL that we have to have an actual word for something like this.

He called it “salting the earth”. He’d make one contact–i.e. historically, he was known to belong to a shooting club, where he was certified to teach safe handling and would participate on weekends with fun shoots, etc. That was in our small town of 1m. He immediately set about reaching out to all of the local gunshops. The story to me was that each weekend, he was at the gunshop (and my mind immediately filled in the blank spaces with what I used to KNOW that he did when he hung out with these clubs).

Well, he WAS at the gunshop. For five minutes. It was on his way to his APs house. Every day. Every weekend. He’d disappear and say, “I’m at Danny’s”.

When we lived in our small town, he was an avid hunter (so I thought). A very convenient hobby, as you can excuse your lack of “evidence” with a very real lack of prey available.

He’d painstakingly pack his guns and clothes and with a big hug and kiss….set off for a week “hog hunting” or “deer hunting” in some neighboring state (when we moved, he literally got on a plane to go hunting for a week…..every couple of months).

Turns out–his fuckbuddies, several of them, each in a different state–would host him. He’d go “hunting” for a day, take some pictures, maybe actually bag a hog or deer—and then spend the rest of the week fucking his girlfriend du jour.

He was telling the truth. I just wasn’t listening right. It’s a politician’s tactic as well. They are telling you the truth. They really are—we just aren’t listening right. When they say, “We won’t change our way of life”….they are talking to their wealthy friends, not the little people.

What’s horrible is the lengths that we have to go to in order to set the record straight. It makes you look crazy. The boys at the gunshops are shaking their heads with sadness….”Yeah, sorry ExAsshole, you are right. Your wife is batshit crazy and controlling. I’ll help you by covering for you. So sorry you have to put up with such a controlling bitch.”

Disengage. Disengage. Disengage. I tried for a long time to “trust but verify”. But at the end of the day….WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO LIVE LIKE THAT. I don’t bring that shit to the table, and I shouldn’t have to put up with anybody who does.

I tried to get gunshop guy to tell me the truth as to whether or not ExAsshole worked for him, but people don’t want to get involved with this messy domestic crap. It makes them uncomfortable. And some are as morally bankrupt as the Cheaters are, so there’s that.

As soon as you find out that this guy/gal is lying by omission, or giving “technicalities” (I’m only technically married. if i don’t like representing myself as married, then i don’t. it’s just a piece of paper. marriage is a human construct, it has absolutely no real meaning.)—you’ve lost the war.

Personally, I have found that most people do this to some degree. If it’s in their best interest to obfuscate, they will. There may not be “intent to harm” and it might be a white lie—but most people do it. Cheaters/sociopaths simply take it to the next level.

And like George Kastanza said, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”

UXworld
UXworld
6 years ago
Reply to  GlassHalfFull

OMG, @glasshalffull — “marriage is a human construct . . .” Where did you find or hear this? KK said that to me vertbatim. Perhaps she and your fuckwit hung out at the same cheater justification site(s).

GlassHalfFull
GlassHalfFull
6 years ago
Reply to  UXworld

UX, my ExH said it numerous times. It was his favorite fallback position. Marriage is a human construct. As are laws.

This is true. And if you want to live like an animal, then it’s your right to do that as well. KarenE is correct–when a person chooses to participate in this human construct, then they agree to abide by the rules of said construct.

This is applicable to everything that is unique to homo-sapiens. Rules. Laws. Religion. Ethics. Morality. They are ALL human constructs, unique to our species. Notice I did not include “altruism”, because animals are known to exhibit this emotion/behavior.

What’s crazy? Some humans, such as KK and many others that fall under the term “sociopath”–DO NOT exhibit the basest emotion/behavior of which some animals are capable. My ExH certainly cannot do “altriusm”.

So yeah, he loved this. It is kind of that same argument of “monogamish”. That humans are not programmed to be monogamous. It’s bullshit.

KarenE said it very succinctly, and I did too (continue to do so as well and he hates my guts because of it)—that you signed on the dotted line. You can read. You are an adult. You are capable of making choices and dealing with the consequences of those choices, whether good or bad.

They love the feel good consequences of a choice. Money. Security. Image. Material belongings. Respect.

They hate doing the hard work to acquire and maintain those good consequences. They hate following rules, because the rules don’t apply to them.

This is the quintessential definition of cake. All of the benefits, without any of the risks. I’d love to take a pill and be a size 2 without any exercise involved. But I can’t. I follow the rules and I benefit from those rules.

These fuckwits are the ones who would sit back with a bowl of popcorn and watch civilization fall with glee, because it would mean that they can be themselves without fear of repercussion. Fortunately, civil society doesn’t exactly like it when people do what they want when they want. We have prisons for those people.

Just once, I would like some test case to come up where a Cheater endangered someone’s life by promiscuity and it became law that if you are found to have had unprotected sexual intercourse with someone without telling all partners involved, you serve time. Extreme? I don’t think so. It’s harsh that the ONLY language that these fuckwits understand is severe and irreversible consequences.

I’m not going to get into how I feel about the Boomers and their “free love” bullshit, along with their financial irresponsibility—but I do believe that part of the problem with the creation of sociopaths has been a direct result of that generation’s “anything goes and nothing matters” point of view.

So yeah. If you hear anybody say this type of thing, this hedonistic POV that they stand outside of the “little people” following the rules, or you notice things like I did…not registering weapons with localities because they are “afraid of the man” (which is another bullshit excuse to break the law)….run. Better yet, take a good inventory of the lawlessness and turn them in to the proper authorities.

The only way we’re going to go back to a civil society is to start holding uncivil people accountable. And cheating is uncivilized.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago
Reply to  UXworld

Yup, it’s a human construct, which you can choose to participate in or not. But if you do, the expectations are clear.
Cheaters want all the advantages of that construct, and will happily lie, palmer, omit, do what ever it take to also have the advantages of being single.

JannaG
JannaG
6 years ago
Reply to  KarenE

Yes. I never understood why someone who wanted to try polyamory wouldn’t just stay unmarried. It would give them a lot more flexibility. But, apparently, you don’t get the same place in society or the benefits of the social construct if you choose to try open relationships when single. I forget that some people could care less about others’ feelings, needs and health.

beginningtohope
beginningtohope
6 years ago
Reply to  KarenE

Yes! A human construct that the cheaters chose to participate in, and want to keep getting the benefits of, while not keeping up with what they promised as part of that construct.

STBX will tell anyone who will listen that our marriage “was dead” before he starting his affair with the OW, but of course, he didn’t think to mention that to me and he didn’t want to actually end the marriage because then he’d lose some of his access to the kids. he’d have to go out and get a job (no more getting to be the stay-at-home parent to school aged kids and sneaking around with the OW all day) and there would be unpleasant consequences.

And to this day, STBX will claim he didn’t “lie” to me because he never actually told me he wasn’t fucking the OW – he just told me things like “there’s nothing to worry about” when I noticed that they were spending a lot of time together.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

I was thinking you sound like you’re working as a litigator– cross examining everything is exhausting!

Rob
Rob
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

“It depends on what the definition of the word “IS” is.”

Resa
Resa
6 years ago
Reply to  Rob

Rob! Exactly!! ???

whatthefuckever
whatthefuckever
6 years ago
Reply to  Resa

YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!

Kind Heart
Kind Heart
6 years ago
Reply to  coolbreezeout

Same exact situation and same exact way I handled ot now that we are divorced. It IS exhausting, but a necessary evil. Best wishes.

It'sNotJustMe
It'sNotJustMe
6 years ago

This used to make me crazy, feeling like it was up to me to ask the “right” question. “Are you still talking to the OW?” “No.”
Technically true because texting isn’t actually talking. So glad to put that craziness behind me.

IHateAsshats
IHateAsshats
6 years ago
Reply to  It'sNotJustMe

Me: Are you seeing someone else?
Her: No!

(Because sexting over Skype isn’t “seeing” anyone)

Me: So, there’s nothing on your phone or computer that I can’t see?
Her: No!

(Because it’s none of your business anyway)

NoMoreLies
NoMoreLies
6 years ago
Reply to  It'sNotJustMe

My cheater used his ailing father as a cover…when he was supposedly visiting him (across the ocean) and I would ask him daily how his dad was doing, he would answer “better today” or whatever. My mistake was not asking him if he was actually WITH his dad. No…he was vacationing with the OW. When I later asked him about it, his response was “well, I didn’t lie because my answers were technically true”.He heard about his father’s condition regularly so he answered honestly in his mind.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreLies

Wow!

theotherwhitemansburden
theotherwhitemansburden
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreLies

Jesus. This takes the cake.

NoMoreLies
NoMoreLies
6 years ago

And then four months later when his father was gravely ill, he was “traveling for work”. I kept telling him he should leave immediately but he said he thought it would be okay. Well his father died that week. Later found out he was vacationing with the OW that week too. I don’t know if she talked him out of being with his dad, but I see it as his choice. His father. A few months later when it was time to move our son to college, he said he wanted to be by himself because he was sad about his father. I felt sorry for him. But what was he doing? Vacationing with the OW including a soccer game at Wembley (we live in the U.S.)

CAGal
CAGal
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreLies

Ugghhh! Mine had a father that went from “fine” to needing quadruple bypass surgery over the course of 3 days or so. Once it became clear that his father was going to need surgery I kept asking him “do you want to buy a plane ticket to go be there for your father’s surgery?” “I keep money specifically for this purpose, if you want to buy a ticket… just go.” But nope – it was fine, he didn’t want to miss work during the holidays, etc. etc.

What’s crazy is that in middle of the blame shifting, he accused me of not caring about his dad and supporting him. It was one of the things that in hind sight made me realize how fucking insane he was. I had sat by his side while he called his dad. I checked in through the day, I offered any support or discussion, I offered to book a plane ticket for him… but somehow is his crazy mind, I didn’t do any of this. It was really like he lived in an alternative reality. It was fucking scary.

In addition after the fog cleared I realized:
1) He did go because he didn’t want to be away from his whore for 4 days or whatever.
2) He’s a sociopath and was able to say the words that were words that a person who cared might say, but he actually didn’t care anything about it. He had a complete lack of caring about anything except what he wanted, and pretending that he cared his dad was dying above and beyond lip service to the topic was simply not something he would do.

Also pretty fucking scary.

WrecktheRIC
WrecktheRIC
4 years ago
Reply to  CAGal

CAGal, if you still read here, we must talk! This is my exact story! Blamed me for not caring about his dads death as the reason for his affair! These cheaters really are all the same. I would love to compare notes.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  CAGal

CaGal – I have felt the same way about my STBX. There is no other explanation except that they truly are mentally disordered. Mine pulls this crap on his kids, too. I can’t tell you the number of times I say to myself, “He can’t honestly think that.” But he does and he believes that they are completely true and real.

Going no contact became so much easier once I realized that having a rational conversation with him was not possible.

Merrychump
Merrychump
6 years ago
Reply to  CAGal

It’s really cruel how they lie about our efforts to build a good relationship.
Dear CaGal, you offered emotional and financial support, it was real and provable. Yet, as my cheater did, they always paint it negative, making our painful efforts useless.
I think it’s very unfair when cheaters make all our good intentions and achievements disappear in their alternative reality. They manufacture a false universe where all our caring acts are destroyed, never real, never existed for them. They waste our love.
Heaven knows how much it cost me emotionally to try to maintain a smile while he planted seeds of doubt in my mind about his sincerity and when he raged every day for banalities in front of our children.

hopiumrecovery
hopiumrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  CAGal

durtbag had similar complete breaks from reality. It is frightening to experience, that sinking feeling that you are married to a crazy sociopath. He would have these over reactions when someone he knew died. It was like he didn’t know how to scale his madeup emotion. He would strongly react whether it was his uncle or someone he met a couple of times. Of course, rarely if ever did he go to the services unless it was immediate family and it was clear it was expected of him. Otherwise, he used people’s deaths as a way to get attention. Very creepy. This was one of the reasons I feared for my life as I was divorcing him and he wasn’t getting what he thought he should get ($150k for a one year “mirage”). I knew he didn’t care about human life, and especially not mine.

NextTimeMan-Bot
NextTimeMan-Bot
6 years ago
Reply to  hopiumrecovery

“It was like he didn’t know how to scale his madeup emotion. ”
interesting insight!

CAGal
CAGal
6 years ago
Reply to  hopiumrecovery

Yeah – I get that. I had been in a car accident that thankful was nothing, but could have been horrible. We were in MC at the time and I remember him raging that he felt like he was being judged on his reaction to this accident and that it some sort of test and he better not fuck it up. I remember thinking it was so weird how worked up he was getting about the fact that he was expected to respond to this accident.

Again – a few years later a thought crystalized in my head that he was angry that he had to pretend to care. Like he didn’t know how to react, because again, he didn’t fucking care. He didn’t know the right combination of word to put together in that case to act like a person who gave a fuck. So the only real emotion he had about it was anger that in front of the MC he had to pretend that he cared. Wife almost died… why would I care about that. I’ll get her life insurance money and sue Cal Trans. That would be great. I’ll never work again.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreLies

I doubt she talked him out of being with his dad although I am sure he would be happy to use that as another lie. In my experience, cheaters are all about me and can’t be talked into anything!

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
6 years ago
Reply to  It'sNotJustMe

This. I now realize that having to figure out the right question to get the answer I seek, even about simple things, is its own great big red flag.

theotherwhitemansburden
theotherwhitemansburden
6 years ago
Reply to  It'sNotJustMe

Yep, I got the same problem. For the last year of our marriage, I kept asking questions that were not “the right question,” and therefore allowed him to keep on the deception. It was like a bad law school mock trial: for instance, “I am not having an affair” turned out to be cover for “I am screwing prostitutes all over the world.” Or “she was not a prostitute” turned out to be cover for “she was a freelance sex worker not working in a brothel, because I choose to define ‘prostitute’ as narrowly as I please.” Or, the best of all, a logical consequence of the above: “I never lied to you.” I have made peace with that, but when he uses it in relation to the kids, it still gets me.

Kar marie
Kar marie
6 years ago

Paltering is like steven colberts truthiness. Another name for asswipe the great palterer. Figures some one somewhere would come up with a name for more accepted bad behavior. A lie is a lie is a lie no matter how it is told or not. This is the cake eating asswipe to a tee. Fuckers. Great post ux. Much love and big hugs!!

Joy
Joy
6 years ago

Me: “Is there somebody else???”
NarcX: “No, there isn’t somebody else.”
The truth: It actually was nobody in particular. Just random women.

JannaG
JannaG
6 years ago
Reply to  Joy

It’s pretty hard to get the truth out of a cheater. I have a feeling if we asked direct questions that they couldn’t palter, they would just outright lie.

Beach Girl
Beach Girl
6 years ago
Reply to  Joy

Me…are you seeing someone else?
Him..I see lots of people
Smoke and mirrors

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Joy

Reading this makes me think I experienced projection of paltering back in January.

Stbx: tell me about your conversation with AP’s husband.
Me: I have never met him!
Stbx: you called him?
Me: no, do not know him.
Styx: I know, you emailed him.
Me: No, I have never had any contact with him..,

I never lied to him in 26 years.

Aletheia
Aletheia
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

I went through that strange questioning from mine. This, like the scratches on his back, is another aha! He was questioning me as if I lied by omission. If I’m honest, I did a lot of that where r he state of my marriage was and is concerned,

Bestie
Bestie
6 years ago

Very interesting topic. Kind of like another term I recently read about, “cushioning,” when you string people along on the side in case your current relationship doesn’t work out…like cushioning your bank accounts for emergencies, I guess.
I knew what my STBX was doing was mindfucking, I just didn’t know there was a term for that particular type, which I had called tactical lying. I think this may count as paltering:
“I never slept with her” = We literally never fell asleep while we were at the hotel or at her house or in the park bathroom, not at the same time for sure, so not “with her,” and actually, I don’t think we ever slept at all.
“I did not have a 7-year affair with her” = I was not with her every day, or even every week, or even every month, AND it wasn’t an “affair” because it wasn’t a “relationship” — it was just sex.
“I never called her from the house” = I only texted her and sent her pictures of my dick from inside the house, and I went outside to call her.
“I never told her I loved her” = When she texted “I ❤️ U,” I replied, “Me 2” or texted a ? or just a ❤️.
“I told you the truth” = I told you the truth when I said I was at the mall…that time last month, when I took the kids shopping for shoes…like you asked me to.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  Bestie

Ah, yes … I got the “it wasn’t an affair” either. Initially, this was because he had no feelings other than lust for the one particular affair partner I was inquiring about (the only one I suspected at the time).

But, the same BS came up later as I discovered multitudes of women … there wasn’t a “single” infidelity — there were many, thus he had not lied with the initial “it wasn’t an affair.”

C.R.A.Z.Y.-M.A.K.I.N.G.

brit
brit
6 years ago

Me: “Have you been with someone else?”

Satan: “Do you think I’m that kind of guy?”

Truth: Not as far as you know, I’m not “that” kind of guy. You have no idea of what kind of guy I am,.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago
Reply to  brit

Answering a spouse’s direct question with a question instead of an answer is another favorite cheater tactic.

KarenE
KarenE
6 years ago

Oh yeah, the answering w/another question, one of my ex’s favourites. ‘Are you involved with another woman again?’ ‘Do you think I have time for an affair?’ ‘What about your relationship w/Patty?’ ‘Have you met her? She’s not even very attractive!’

Fortunately, by that point, my questions were primarily to give him a chance to be honest. Which he turned down, of course.

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
6 years ago

OH YEAH!
AND they do it to the OW, too!

Esther
Esther
6 years ago

“To get her to realize what she is throwing away”

Looking back, I wish I had realized how tragic and demeanino it is to plead your worth to your mate.

A huge chunk of my healing has come early from grasping that he never viewed me as precious, or the bond worth protecting.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Esther

Post DDay/devalue/pick-me dance/discard/Divorce my new code of life is this: if I EVER feel I have to convince someone in any personal relationship that I am worthwhile then the relationship is dead and over and I’m out. I refuse to beg to be treated decently ever again.

Betsy
Betsy
6 years ago

Can I throw an AMEN on this one?

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago

I used to be strong like that MotherChumper99, but I lost it after 15 years of marriage, and what I now realize, was the slow chipping away of my humanity, strength, self-esteem, and self-respect. I never put up with anyone’s shit, and I have no clue what happened to the old me. I guess I allowed being told I suck for so long to change me.

Kar marie
Kar marie
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

One thing i learned through all the shit is im stronger than i thought i was. I too felt destroyed and not of value by him. But once i got angry and became indifferent to the asswipe once i had a wall in place he could not get through my healing began its a long hard road and it hurts alot some days i still struggle but my life is now my own. I decide i WILL NOT EAT ANY MORE SHIT SANDWICHES FROM ANYONE!!!!! be kind to yourself, be mighty, rome wasnt built in a day and we wont heal in a day. Push forward, adjust your sails, head into that wind, its cleansing! Come here come often we are here for you and each other. This site saved me and my sanity. We get you! You got this!! Big hugs to you!!

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

It was a slow chipping away- I am right there with you! But while healing takes time, I don’t think it will take as long as the chipping away if you surround yourself with supporters and cut off the fuckwits. Every step you take, remind yourself you are doormat no more and that you are doing this on your own not holding the hand of another fuckwit schmoopie! The world will see it! Truth wins!

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Feelingit

It is so helpful to have supporters. He says and does things that on the surface seem reasonable and sometimes I question whether or not I am just being bitter when I get upset over the things he does. It is validating when I tell other people about those things and they immediately recognize what he is doing wrong without me having to explain why I am hurt. Even his own mother says I have a right to be upset and my emotions are valid.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago

Yes Chuminrecovery! Sometimes I wonder if my reaction is WRONG because I am so hurt and angry, but when I speak to other people, the validation helps a bit.

Drew
Drew
6 years ago

This! They only value themselves. “Everybody else is lacking,” strangely enough the reverse is true. ???

Kathleen
Kathleen
6 years ago
Reply to  Esther

Not sure if this was paltering, I asked him “why didn’t you leave for the schmoopie whore last year? Instead of putting me through all of this?” His reply ” I had patience”. What the fuck does that mean??

StigOfTheChump
StigOfTheChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Kathleen

That is sinister. So what he is basically saying is, “It didn’t suit me at that stage to blow things up, I waited until it was a convenient time for me to shit on you, when I had my ducks in a row, so that the separation and divorce gave me the best possible advantage over you”. They go on about the Other Whoever being twoo love or whatever, but they are cold-blooded enough not to get swept up in the moment when it comes to their financial well-being. Pure narc/socio behaviour.

Drew
Drew
6 years ago
Reply to  StigOfTheChump

Textbook ex. These “pods” are scary and are often the ones we see in the headlines. Once they have made the decision to leave they have acted in all sorts of sketchy ways and built up their stories…. Ex-still!–sends me long emails pretending to be concerned about our children. The same ones he ripped off. I often wonder if he’s setting down untruths but hope that’s me being paranoid. At the same time he has never complied with our MSA. When he left I was afraid he’d harm me because he so clearly didn’t care. I think if more money had been at stake he would have. As it was he realized he made enough to start over; he destroyed me financially though. Dissipated assets. One thing even in spite of those crap years. I am too strong a person to believe I was never worth something, even when his actions clearly communicated that. I knew I was a better person. Next time I will be paying attention to all those little truths. Evasiveness is not a great character trait. And neither are unexplained, too frequent absences. Best advice ever: pay attention to your gut.

Dixie Chump
Dixie Chump
6 years ago
Reply to  Kathleen

I had “patience” means:

It was more convenient for me to stay put. I was getting more out of staying than I would get out of leaving. Cake in the form of financial, sexual, emotional or some other form of benefit. Sometimes it means I really love trotting around having sex with other people, but I am no more committed to them than I am to you so why bother the big upheaval of trading one anchor for another? I can’t be bothered. They decide it’s time to move along when that balance shifts for THEM or when you kick them out. They suck.

Kathleen
Kathleen
6 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

Dixie Chump- Exactly!!! 69 year old narc with ED… living on Viagra … schmoopie whore can push him around in a wheelchair in few years LOL ?

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
6 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

Yes, Dixie, they USE people. We’re not really people to them. And, they are so annoyed when we need something, too.
To bring in a positive note, we are looking out for our partner’s needs, and actually caring if their needs are being met! We go the extra mile to please them, and feel that they would do the same for us. We are the beautiful and sensitive Chumps.

Finally Free Heart
Finally Free Heart
6 years ago
Reply to  Dixie Chump

That just hit me as so true for my X. I think all his one night stands and his longer affairs were never committed. Just like he was never committed to me – it was just who he is.

On the vein of things said. I once wondered about whether he was involved with someone he worked with. It sure looked like there was something going on. So, I asked him “Are you having an affair”. He answered “I think she’s attractive and I guess it is flattering that she seems to like me since I’m 10 years older than she is. So, I’m enjoying the attention.” So, by acknowledging that there was something in the air, and not outright denying, made me believe him and I didn’t ask anything further. He was a master at telling partial truth and I was the perfect chump, believing him.

Jodi Lynch
Jodi Lynch
6 years ago
Reply to  Kathleen

Okay, now I get what paltering is. I got it from asshole
ex-husband all the time, apparently. But what’s the
word for what Kathleen describes for answers that
make no fucking sense? I agree, Kathleen ~ What
the fuck does “I had patience” mean?

There has to be a secret word for answers that make
no fucking sense. LOL

I actually propositioned my asshole ex-husband when
I found him on a dating site looking for what he had
thrown away ~ a perfect description of me. I asked
why can’t we spend a night together if you are looking
for passion and romance (what his dating profile said)?

His answer? I’m not ready.

What the fuck does that mean? He’s looking for that in strangers,
but someone he knows who can guarantee passion and
romance, He’s not ready?

WTF!!!

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Jodi Lynch

Yeah, I tried to seduce STBX once after D-Day too and got “That’s just not where we are right now”.

Kathleen
Kathleen
6 years ago
Reply to  Jodi Lynch

YES .. Jodi Lynch I tried that similar invitation to get him to realize I was the “best” thing for him after being married for so long. We had a full sex life…never refused him ever in 33 years. But I was not “new” anymore. He’s now living with whore.. I’d like to think he’s unhappy but I doubt it.
It’s so unfair to us honest, decent women/men. Love ❤️ U all fellow chumps!

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  Jodi Lynch

Jodi, you have to hand it to your cheater: “not ready” is about the only honest thing he uttered. Jackasses are never ready for liveing decently.

SomethingNew
SomethingNew
6 years ago
Reply to  Jodi Lynch

My best guess for what he meant by “passion and romance” was “I already ‘got’ you, so that’s not exciting anymore. I want to feel the excitement of getting a new one to prove to myself that I’m awesome.” And “I’m not ready” means “I first want to see if I can’t hook someone new and shiny, but I’d really like it if you would just sit here and wait around pining for me in case the dating profile doesn’t get me any action this week.”

SomethingNew
SomethingNew
6 years ago
Reply to  SomethingNew

Exchange “prove” with “reassure”. I think that fits the mindset better.

There has to be a word that describes this…Pattern of communication?

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
6 years ago
Reply to  Jodi Lynch

Mindfuckery…is the word you’Re looking for.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago
Reply to  Kathleen

Me too – 3 years of this. Then he left, came back and swore he wouldn’t leave again, and then I found the text messages.

I asked why and how he could put me and our daughters through this again. He replied that it was too hard for HIM to be away from the kids, and it was HIS house too, and I was just going to have to put my big girl panties on and deal with it. And of course – he was still confused about what he wanted because he was scared of making a mistake.

I say – Fuck you asshole.

We have lived in limbo for so long, and I am just barely seeing just how awful the last few years have been. The cruelty, the degradation, the fear, the sadness. My poor kids suffered. He was never around, never wanted to do anything as a family. I was good enough to have sex with, but not good enough for anything else. Amazing.

JannaG
JannaG
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

I wasn’t even good enough to have sex with. He actually told me that sex with the mistress is so much better than it was with me.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

I could have written what you just wrote, SBW. To realize that there are so many people willing to treat loved ones this way makes me scared to EVER be willing to trust anyone else with my heart again. I know there are good people out there. I am friends or have family that are, but to know that my STBX was not an isolated instance is scary.

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

This is my life too. You are not alone. But moving forward!

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  Esther

This is so true, Esther. I think I spent maybe the first six months or so waiting cheater boy to grasp the enormity of the damage, but it was never going to happen. Until I landed here, I really did not understand that the devalue and discard had long since been accomplished. I guess I’m lucky that this did not go according to his plan, which would likely have entailed two more years of lying, last kid graduated from HS and off to college, and then the divorce. Wouldn’t that have been lovely? Alternatively, he would have just kept things the way they were, which also sucked. In any case, he had long since decided that I was the source of all unhappiness, so no real sorrow was ever going to happen. And you are right–it is unbelievably humiliating to try to persuade the person who should value you most that you are inherently worthy. Losing proposition, and not the spot a spouse should ever be in for any reason.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

Absolutely 100% agree. This is definitely what happened to me. The worst part is he still tries to tell me “I still care about you a lot”. Bullshit. If he cared about me at all he would not have started having affairs in the first place let alone chose Schmoopie over me when he was given the gift of a chance to reconcile. I wish he would just admit he is a selfish prick and likes being that way and stop trying to pretend like he is still a decent person who is still doing right by his family.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago

I hate that whole I love you and care about you bullshit.

If you loved me, you would fix this.

If you cared about me, you would fix this.

If you loved and cared about me, this would never have happened.

What assholes.

NoMoreEvil
NoMoreEvil
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

If you loved and cared about me YOU would have never done this to me.

Yep, assholes they are, SBW! ?

beginningtohope
beginningtohope
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreEvil

+1. This post resonates so much with me – I got the “I love you and care about you” BS from STBX too, and he wants to “always stay friends”. And I just thought quietly to myself that we haven’t been “friends” since he starting fucking the OW because friends don’t emotionally abuse each other like that, and friends don’t lie to each other.

STBX also got upset because most of our mutual friends who talked to me came down firmly on my side (side note – he’s welcome to keep the switzerland friends and those who can “see both sides”) – he said that the reason for that is because those friends have only heard my “version of the facts”.

I was struck silent by that statement — here I was thinking that there were actual facts, like the fact that he’s the one who is cheating, the fact that he didn’t want me to know because he didn’t like what the consequences would be, and the fact that he is still involved with the OW and has no intention of stopping but would like for me to stay married to him because that would be more convenient for him. But apparently there’s some alternate version of the facts that I’m not explaining properly when I tell people I’m leaving him because he’s cheating on me and has no intention of stopping…

JannaG
JannaG
6 years ago

My ex told me I was no fun, every word out of my mouth was annoying and he left the house just to get away from me. Then, he wanted to be friends. Why would you want to be friends with someone you find so horrible that you need to say such cruel things? He makes no sense.

Shechump
Shechump
6 years ago

Beginning-to-Hope – ‘he said that the reason for that is because those friends have only heard my “version of the facts”.

This is what shocked me about the Swiss friends! I’m not taking sides. WHAT SIDES!? The fucker cheated, simple. He admits it! He isn’t leaving her! There ARE no sides! Fuck em all, I say.

I must say I’m grateful that the X never blamed me for his activities so he wasn’t even looking for a ‘his side’. Too bad most of these people were relatives…that I’ll never see again, anyway. pffft

AmIFinallyDone
AmIFinallyDone
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

OH YEAH!
You just explained the last two years of my life, although the devalue began decades ago. My sons begged me to stay through younger son’s HS graduation. We were under the impression this was a mid-life crisis that would pass. You know, society accepts/expects mid-life crisis for men…and hot flashes for women!

AND they palter to the OW, too!
STBXH told Owhore he was taking older son to a hockey game for his birthday. He did’t tell her younger son went too…as did I. Drove separately, Sat at the opposite end of the family, with boys between us. He posted on FB “Last hockey game of the season with (oldest kids name.) No mention of me, or younger son. He’s trying to “get to him” by discarding him too…but it seems DS2 is already in his own discard mode.

Paltering. So that’s what it’s called.

Nejla
Nejla
6 years ago

XH is the king of paltering!!!! (And lying and lying by omission!)
About 9 months ago I discovered this wonderful technology called the universal bullshit translator.
That and NC have liberated me from continually trying to make sense of the puzzle that was his behavior. I spent so much time trying to see him as a good person because he was my husband. The bad behavior was there albeit underneath a lot of paltering, lying and lying through omission. When the two major lies were revealed (cheating and drug use over a ten year period) it was the “plug” that unleashed a dam of lies that still, occasionally, (after 9 months) still trickle into my brain.
It is less and less as the months go on but I am hoping for that magical Tuesday when I won’t care.

ChutesandLadders
ChutesandLadders
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

I have a King Palterer as an X, too. Emphasis on the “X,” thank GOD!!! The man couldn’t answer a straight question if his life depended on it. He got off on watching me trip on my “exact” words.

Still unemployed. Still can’t get his kids to visit him. Still has his kids call him out on his bullshit. All because he is and will always be a lying fucker.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

Nejla,
Your words “continually trying to make sense of the puzzle that was his behavior.” “I spent so much time trying to see him as a good person because he was my husband.” apply, word for word, to me and my STBXH.

DistressedHeart
DistressedHeart
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Or Xwives…

Nejla
Nejla
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Yep, ClearWaters, that’s what we do as “neural typical” people. We see everyone through the lens of how we behave and our own values. Call it naive but that’s who I was-“just a nice naive girl from the Midwest” as one of the Switzerland folks told me. Not any more. It’s ok though-some incredibly painful growing pains, right?!
But, the cool thing is that we get to keep our own values and the disordered most likely will continue faking it forever. I am so glad not to be around that circus anymore!

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

That is what keeps me going, getting to keep my values

BlueWillow
BlueWillow
6 years ago
Reply to  Nejla

@nejla and @ClearWaters This is EXACTLY my life too!! I was “continually trying to make sense of the puzzle that was his behavior.” and “I spent so much time trying to see him as a good person because he was my husband.” It is so freaking crazy how my mind could not see what was right in front of me as it was clouded/gaslighted/damaged into submission. I would always say to him that I felt like if I did not ask the right questions in the exact right way, I was not going to get the answers and indeed that turned out to be reality. Specific instances of his bullshit keep trickling back into my consciousness – lots of “OHHH so that’s what THAT was” kinds of memories and I get pissed off to my core all over again.
Great topic. Thanks UX

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  BlueWillow

Yes, yes, and yes…to all of what you wrote. It is hard to realize that the core of who they are is not good and not only did they not make choices with the good of your marriage and family in mind, but that they also lied (or told partial truths) to purposely deceive you.

It makes everything that you shared not a reality anymore. Nothing was real. Only plus is that it is easier to let the emotions tied to memories go.

Nejla
Nejla
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

I may sound like a drama queen but I have been happy to explain to people that I was conned. No he wasn’t just married to a good friend that got him a green card. No he never was a professional soccer player. No, he wasn’t a recovering addict, he was an active addict. All things I was told from the first few dates that I completely believed (he is that good of a liar!)
And then once he was fully “dug in” to my life, slowly allowing himself to stray from being that good person he mirrored until in the end he was half a step away from a full time conman. It just must have been so tiring for him that when a new shiny equally naive chump came along he jumped at having a new caretaker/appliance so he could start over. Everyone has a capacity for change but I don’t see it with this guy.

I just was explaining to my little one the difference between a cell phone and a home phone. I said, “you know, sweetie, a home phone is like the phone we have on the coffee table. Your dad and his girlfriend just have cell phones not home phones.”
Her response, “no mommy. They have one! It’s next to the tv…. …you know daddy is like that mommy. He tells lies sometimes.” (She just turned 7 by the way!)
“Yes, sweetie. I only asked for it in case of emergency but your dad obviously doesn’t want me to have the number so he lied to me.”
When I heard this lie number 5862, I thought, of course he lied! But, I am surprised every freaking time!!

bepositive
bepositive
6 years ago
Reply to  BlueWillow

@ BlueWillow – Exactly! I’m pretty much at meh until one of those “aha” moments about a memory slips in. Then I’m pissed for awhile.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago

So THAT’S the word for what Cheater was doing to me. In my language the slang word for paltering evokes mists, dodging and winding round and round.

So far today it seems like we could have a paltering festival.

The last words I heard cheater pronounce, as he stormed out of what was still our home after an unsuccessful session of mindfucking, were: “I’m not a philanderer”. Meaning: “I only have “serious” affairs, one at a time.” Bitch cookie?

Kay
Kay
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Love bitch cookies. Lol. STBX, King of bitch cookies as well. Sigh. No point in discussing it. Just whatever. Mine paltered as well. But he just straight lied too lol. I think his view was I deserved to be cheated on bc I have been so horrible. He was doing me a favor by not divorcing me already , so his lying didn’t count. Just twisted crazy logic. And it boils down, no one is the boss of me, I’m going to do what I’m going to do, so suck it.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Kay

X was the same: I deserved to be treated worse than dirt (and so apparently did the 4 kids) because (insert any delusional reason) (e.g. He had to “work,” kids had to go to school in suburbs, I never (in 25 years) accepted him, one kid went to college back east, house was too big, he had no comfortable chair at home (yup, he really said that), I like Antique Roadshow ?….blah blah blah

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 years ago

Mother99,
Now what a flawed character to like Antique Roadshow. How lowly!

A friend told me that one day her cheater asked for a special meal for him and the kids and she made it with loving care. He keeps getting calls on his cell phone while she is toiling away at the stove. She sets the table and calls the family and he complains that the filling for the meat pie wasn’t what he had in mind, how inconsiderate she was, got his car keys, stomped out of the house and only came back the next day. That’s what she gets for being inconsiderate. BTW, this cheater is living in a brothel now, no kidding, he has nowhere to go.

Sucker Punched by a Saffa
Sucker Punched by a Saffa
6 years ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

A Japanese friend spent all day preparing a multi-course meal for her new boyfriend. His only comment ? “I really prefer low sodium soy sauce.” She calmly turned to him and replied, “I worked very hard to make all this food. If you don’t like it, I won’t cook for you anymore.”
She broke off all contact after that incident. “Not gracious” she said.
Inspiring !

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago

Lol. Called blameshifting…another tactics they use. Mine was king of paltering and lies of omission. On occasion, he outright lied, but somehow I think the other two made him feel better about himself.

All of them are forms of manipulation. It is about control. And “your not the boss of me” and I do no wrong, so it must be your fault. So obvious once you go NC but so hard to see it for what it is while it is going on. Especially when you are told all marriages have rough spots, all spouses have things you need to overlook or forgive, work on yourself, etc.

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
6 years ago

Paltering…where image management and lying kiss. Aka Cheater Land. It is enough to drive a trusting chump mad.

Drew
Drew
6 years ago

So true! Good to hear your voice again.

TiredChump
TiredChump
6 years ago

Palter = to make unreliable statements of fact or insincere promises….

Top ten from my STBX

I didn’t mean to hurt you
The kids will be all right
I gave you everything you wanted
I tried to tell you I was unhappy
We were fundamentally incompatible
Tired Chump is strong and will be okay
The kids –18-24 — are adults and don’t need me anymore
The HO-worker has abandonment issues and needs me
I was unhappy for years
I don’t owe the kids anything because I paid for college and our house had a pool
I worked on the marriage (went to 8 counseling sessions all while seeing AP)
The $ is mine because I made it
I deserve to be happy
I have so much life to live
I stopped seeing an IC (after one visit) because People can figure life out on their own ( counselor said stop AP as she is “damaged goods”)

The only truth since D-day “it just feels good”

Waffles
Waffles
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

There is truth in “we are fundamentally incompatible”. Just not in the way he thinks. 😉 You being a faithful spouse, and him being an adulterer.

I used that line alot when explaining why I left my JAMF.

Paintwidow
Paintwidow
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

Omg!!! So many of those were said to me also!
It’s like they all went to the same narcissist/ sociopaths anonymous meeting.
“Hi, I’m _______. I’m an asshole”
“Hi_________.”

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago
Reply to  Paintwidow

You made me laugh out loud with that one! Thanks! Oh, how I wish I could have my stbx at that meeting saying that– I think it might lead to that elusive forgiveness!

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

Straight from the cheater playbook — I got all these and more. Fuckers!

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

This is my STBX.
What pieces of shit they all are.
Mine actually said to me…”I should be unhappy so the 3 of you can be happy?” No fucktard, go find your happiness.

He is a disgrace. At this point, I’m only worried about how much child support and alimony I will be getting. My lawyer said their strategy is going to be to try to screw me as much as possible to get me to lose the house – the house he swore he wanted the girls and I to be able to stay in.

He came to pick the girls up looking like an unmade bed in the expensive clothes that I bought for him. He came from the direction that he would had he come from the girlfriend’s house. Oh wait, he swears that she is NOT his girlfriend. BULLSHIT. I guess that’s why he never texted his daughters the night before to say goodnight. He was too busy fucking his whore, I mean talking to his FRIEND. My buddy said to me that when he is with his girlfriend, we are all dead to him. He doesn’t even think of us. I guess she was right. He simply doesn’t care. This is all a bullshit facade.

I am still trying to come to terms with the fact that he is such a liar, and that he is the man I married. I have no idea how he became such poison. Looking back, he lied so many times, and I just diminished it.

Waiting for MEH, but it’s still hard. He is still taking up a lot of real estate in my heart and head, and I am so concerned for my finances.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

Precious wife. You have obviously done a lot of soul searching, but he hasn’t and he never will. It takes too to make a good marriage and he is the one who fell down on the job and isn’t willing to change in order to make it work.

I did my soul searching in the first few weeks after D-Day trying desperately to nail down what I had been doing wrong so that I could fix it and not lose him. I was pick me dancing like mad. At one point he looked at me and said “have you done any self reflection at all?” That is when I realized that I was alone in the dance and I really wasn’t the problem after all. It was him and he had no desire to even try to change. Your STBX is the same. They are too cowardly to do any kind of self reflection of there own.

It is time our self reflection revolved around what will make us happy in life and it sure isn’t pick me dancing for cheating assholes.

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

SBW (can I rename you “precious wife”?) Hang in there. The roller coaster from hell ride you are on will end soon. Fight like your life depends on it. I did and 3 months ago I went through a week-long trial and got full custody, 70% of all assets (I was seeking 53%) , all cash on hand, maintenance and maximum child support. X has to pay 82% of all extra ordinary child expenses including college. I spent a ton on lawyers and experts but it was less than 7% of what I received in return. Plus having the judge say that I had proved every single issue and that he did not believe one word from X waa priceless. Keep fighting. I was scared shitless but X was so awful that there was no way I could accept his last pre-trial settlement offer of $300 per month (total!).
In the months since I have refinanced, paid off every single debt I have, my new mortgage is affordable, I have a really nice income tax deduction now, and out of the blue I got an amazing new job with a huge promotion. My boyfriend is very good to me and treats me like a Queen. Says he is lucky that X was such a fool.

I’m as NC as I can be.

Karma bus is hitting X hard: he’s physically aged 10 years in 2, he is super sick with drug addiction and alcoholism, he lost any respect he had in the family and our community, the OW is sucking him for every dime she can get ($70K a year grad school and all expenses) but screams at him 24/7 and he’s already cheated on her (my dd3 who lives with them let these jewels slip)! Baahaaahaaa

Meh is pretty nice so far!

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago

MotherChumper99: That is awesome!! I am working on getting the best deal financially I can as well. I am just hoping that all the money I am spending on attorney and accounting fees will come back to me by order of the court because of how deceptive he is being with his business and the shit he has put not just me but the kids through as well. I look forward to the day I can stop investigating and documenting everything and simply focus on building a future for my kids and I that does not include him.

Patience…

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

GMF— keep fighting!

I’m also in a no-fault state but all of the dirty laundry came in because he disputed the date of separation and he disputed having abandoned and when you are an abandoned spouse the separation date is the date upon which the abandoned spouse gives up hope that the marriage can be repaired. Haha! Here hopeium actually helped me! And the fact that he kept lying and Hoover ring for cake and I had a clear record of him having done so help to me establish of the date of separation was a lot later than what he was trying to shut down my throat. I wanted a later date because he had received huge bonuses That I argued were CP.

That’s in my state – it may not be the same everywhere.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago

In my state, the date of separation is usually the last day he stayed in the house. However, all our finances continued to be joint for another year.

He has a salary from his job and then additional income from a business. He feels he should only pay support on the salary, not the extra income. When I filed I used both as his income. I simply took the last 5 years of tax returns and calculated the average of his business income. He claims there is no business income. He spent that year we were separated hiring his girlfriend and running up business expenses to get the income to nothing. His business expenses are more than quadruple any other year he has owned the business. And in 17 years, he has always made money.

I am hoping the judge will get pissed at what he is trying to pull and order him to pay all my fees as well as give me a good settlement. I know what I need at a minimum to continue to provide for my kids and give them the education I planned. Anything else I get on top of that will just mean we may get to go on a vacation or replace the old couch. But if I don’t get the extra, I can live with it if it means I am free of the bastard.

Drew
Drew
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

If you know what you want and it is fair and reasonable push for that. Getting close to trial date is okay as it will put pressure on the disordered (and at this point your lawyer should be negotiating hard) but be sure the lawyers aren’t working against you. There are formulas for spousal and child support. Show the court photos of your lifestyle. House. Vacations. Lifestyle. Your lawyer should be working for you. And address unusual expenses for children (ie extracurricular activities, college, etc.) because they should not do without.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago

I’m in NJ, and have always worked. Our state is a no fault state, so no one really cares that he has been awful. I would like to avoid a trial, as it will be costly for all. We are headed for mediation with our lawyers some time in May. Hopefully, my lawyer will prove his reputation suits him, however, there is only so much that can be done as far as the law is concerned. Sucks.

I am Shit bag wife because I was, at one time, impossible to deal with, and made some shitty choices. My name reminds me that while I have come a long way, I still have to take responsibility for what I’ve done in the past as well. If my actions hurt someone, whether intended or not, then they hurt someone, and that is wrong. I feel terrible about some of the things I did and said, I understand now why I was the way I was, and I did a shit ton of work to fix myself. I wasn’t a monster all of the time, but I certainly didn’t walk on water.

I am beginning to feel that his behavior now is far worse than mine was, first and foremost because no matter how bitchy I was, I never neglected my children or my husband or my home. Unlike him, I stayed and realized I had to work on myself. He says…”Too little, too late.”

It hurts like hell, but I continue to soldier on the best I can.

Thanks for the replies. After being ignored for so long, it feels good to be heard and understood.

Kar marie
Kar marie
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

You should still consider a name change. Noone deserves to be cheated on ever!

MotherChumper99
MotherChumper99
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

Precious wife you may find as you learn more about narcissistic abuse that your conduct was actually the direct result of the abuse that you were suffering. You may want to do more research about this before you condemn yourself.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago

I have been, and am also in therapy. My therapist says that if I were that bad, he should have left. He claims that I changed him. I blame myself, but, looking back, there were many selfish behaviors he exhibited. He just hadn’t turned into this monster yet.

I made a list of everything that would need to be done / transpire in order for me to take him back. Not only do I know he won’t do any of them, he just doesn’t want me anymore so it’s an irrelevant list.

Oddly, people keep saying he will be back, knocking on my door. I don’t see it – he treats me with such anger, disgust, and disdain.

StigOfTheChump
StigOfTheChump
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

I agree with MC69. You are being too hard on yourself. When the shit hit the fan in my relationship, and Mr Stig said he had to leave because he just couldn’t live with what I had done to him, I felt wracked with guilt, because I do have a nasty tongue when provoked, and had been liberal with it at times. Looking back though, a lot of it had been because I was being driven to the end of my tether by his bullshit and undermining, while trying to cope with a newborn baby, and lashed out at the unbelievable stuff that he was coming out with, partially so he could go back and have his ego rubbed by OW, telling her what a meanie I was being to him, and justifying in his mind what he had been up to. I have always been someone whose default is usually anger rather than sadness (I hate the vulnerability, FOO issues, but that is a story for another time) but looking back, a lot of what I said was actually on the money too, and that’s why he was acting all butt-hurt, because he knew somewhere in there that what I was saying about his shortcomings was true. Trust your instincts, and yourself, and yes, it is good that you try to be a grown up and take reponsibility for your part in it, I would say that a lot if not most of your behavior was triggered by gaslighting and bullshit behavior on your X’s part, and then he cashed in the hidden bonus of being able to make you feel responsible for his behavior too. Own your stuff, but not his.

Feelingit
Feelingit
6 years ago

Thanks for that wisdom. I felt exactly like shit bag wife when my Stbx revealed his cheating. I wrote an apology letter apologizing for all my crazy behavior over the years. I am not saying my behavior was all good but I have since learned that gas lighting and all his other narc behaviors were triggering these unhealthy responses.

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

Also heard many of these, word for word. Big sigh.

Kay
Kay
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

Same here lol. It might not be funny if it wasn’t so freaking the same. But overall, heartbreaking.

mickeyblueeyes
mickeyblueeyes
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

Tired i got at least 6 of those…The best one i got from Yo Yo knickers was:-

“It’s almost as if you don’t want me to be happy”

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  mickeyblueeyes

Recent one from my STBX to my kids…”I want your mom to be happy. I want you kids to be happy. I couldn’t be happy with your mom. I hope you forgive me and want me to be happy, too.”

This was a group text he sent to them after they (teenagers) refused to go stay at his new apartment he is sharing with his young (very young) girlfriend. The girlfriend they have not even met that started screwing their dad while their mom was pregnant with their sister and while he is still married.

In other words, let me try to gaslight you by telling you I want all of you to be happy, but really I want you to suck it up, accept my choices, and come stay with me in a situation that makes you extremely uncomfortable because that is what will make me happy.

NoMoreLies
NoMoreLies
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

That’s right – they are to orbit around him – he undoubtably disregarded the kids when he made those choices (not mistakes…they were choices). This is all cheaterspeak…no one is the boss of him. What a narcissist….as long as HE is (supposedly) happy, then everyone should be too.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreLies

Complety disregarded the kids – did nothing but kiss them goodnight, and occassionaly had dinner with them. Blames me for his shitty relationship with them, that he is currently trying to rebuild through being super dad. I wonder how long this will last.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Holy shit – mine says this too. He wants everyone to be happy with the decision he made in order to make himself happy.

They share the same fucking brashin.

beginningtohope
beginningtohope
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

Ooh, the “I want us all to be happy and your mom and I weren’t happy together and sometimes marriages don’t last and that’s hard but I never meant to hurt your mom and I hope she’ll be happy too and now we can all go be happy separately” speech – they really must all have the same handbook. That particular speech sounds lovely except for the paltering bit about how the cheater was out finding their other “happiness” while still married and covering that up.

And then you’re left to try to help the kids unravel that particular bit of mindfuckery so they can sort out which was the cause and which was the effect. “Yes, mom is going to be happier without STBX but that is because he chose to treat MOW like his wife while he was married to mom and STBX is still doing that and doesn’t intend to stop. But if STBX and MOW had made different choices, there’s a good chance STBX and mom and you could have been happy as an intact family and MOW and her family could have been happy as an intact family too.”

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago

I told them that daddy broke a promise to mommy (took that right from CL’s book). Explained how he broke the promise. They said that daddy always breaks promises.

I also told them that the OW said not nice things to mommy, and that is unacceptable, as are the names daddy calls mommy. I explained that they are not to ever tolerate what mommy tolerated.

Great convo for a 9 and 10 year old. I hate that his shittiness has taken their innocence away.

Kar marie
Kar marie
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

+1

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

Mine slipped a nice little break up letter (not that it was necessary by that time as he had already made it clear he didn’t want me anymore) into the book he so thoughtfully gave me for Christmas. In it he said “I hope we both find happiness in 2017” and “I have fond memories of the times we have spent as a family that I will always carry with me”, He probably thought it was such a thoughtful and sentimental letter. I wanted to puke. When I showed it to a previously mutual friend she thought it was pretty awful too so I know it isn’t just “negative interpretation” on my part.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago

I get the “We will be fine” and the “I can’t see us not being together again one day” – seriously?

It just rips my guts out.

TiredChump
TiredChump
6 years ago

And the two PALTERS/lies that fry me most–

When sex life headed south – he told me he had ED problems associated with aging and was too embarrassed to talk to DR!! I FELT SORRY FOR HIM ( vs I’m having trouble keeping up with you and my 26-year-younger assistant a few times a week)

When I noticed him texting that assistant on a family vacation – and asked if anything was going on – he told me they were just friends and quote ” you know I don’t have a lot of friends”. I FELT SORRY FOR HIM (so nothing’s going on because we are away ! But yeah I’m fucking someone else and spending time and money with her)

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

or the false equivalencies. When I thought that Hannibal had given out his phone number to too many students (which I deemed unprofessional), he pointed out that I routinely texted a student. Uh, duh, (a) the student was my lab manager for 3 years, thus requiring some contact, (b) he is gay, (c) I showed Hannibal humorous texts to & from him. His student texts were always cloaked in secrecy, even when I would ask what was so funny as he read them.

Shit bag wife
Shit bag wife
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I told mine the same thing – it is unprofessional to text (on your work phone) females that work in positions that are not on the same level. I told him he was looking for a sexual harassment suit, and that he would lose.

There were 2 women – I actually forgot the first one. What a dumbass I am. The first started commenting all of his facebooks posts and messaging him, so he closed his account. When I looked in his phone, he had her house address and phone number. He had no idea how. Google updates are really mysterious.

The second woman is the one who he is still with. She left the company (and her husband). The company has a policy that employees can’t date each other. She is just so fucking noble to quit her job so they can be together. The lengths she will go for true love. When I asked him where she was working, he had no clue. Amazing that one can be such great friends with someone and not know where they work. Fucktard protects her to no end.

I also forgot about the porn that I found on his phone some time back. Looking back on that now, it seems it was / is symptomatic of this narcissistic sociopathic personality disorder he has. I also wonder if he lost some of his ability to discern right from wrong because of all of the steroids he has taken over the years.

My mom swears there are more women I don’t know about.

Why can’t my heart catch up to this stupidity?

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  Shit bag wife

How do so many of you manage to get ahold of your spouses phones/passwords to find information? Mine was always too careful for that. I probably don’t really want to know what is in those texts, but I would like to know what lies they are telling each other and if they are truly happy with each other or not. He implies that their relationship is not super wonderful either, but then why is he still with her? Is she being the manipulative one or is he? These are some of the questions I would love to have answered, but won’t get valid answers from him. I suppose it really doesn’t matter at this point. Sigh.

CAGal
CAGal
6 years ago

In my case, it was just being attentive. I was waiting for the last little detail to get sorted out, and then I was going to file. I was talking to a good friend, who asked me if I had seen his phone, and I said that I hadn’t. She just posed the question that what if the narrative I had created was wrong and all my suspicions about he and his whore were way off base and I saw that by reading his phone. I explained that there were still issues and it didn’t matter. She said fine, good point and that was the end of it.

Literally the next day I was standing at the back of a room in our house, I don’t think he realized that I was there, and I saw the swipe password for his phone (which was stupid easy btw). So stupid easy that I could remember it. A few days later while he was in the shower, I helped myself. It was as bad as I expected.

You would be surprised how easy it is to dig stuff up if you just quietly pay attention. They are often very lazy. Once I was in the phone, I thought that I wouldn’t even know where to look. He was so lazy he was just talking to her on like gchat and didn’t even bother to change her name to like “Dave” or something. Some of them really get off on the secrecy, so it may not be as easy, but it is worth just sort of paying attention to the opportunity presenting itself.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago
Reply to  CAGal

Thanks for the tips. Unfortunately my STBX is not stupid (well, not when it comes to protecting his privacy). He never let his phone out of his site and only used his pass code when I was not watching. Now I don’t see him much, which is good actually, but no opportunities to snoop.

Chumpinrecovery
Chumpinrecovery
6 years ago

sight.

Clementine
Clementine
6 years ago

My cheater gave me the password to his Netflix account. Turned out it was the key to many doors.

Anita
Anita
6 years ago
Reply to  Clementine

They aren’t too bright, are they?

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  Anita

No they aren’t. They think that they can get out of everything and are smarter that everyone. Then they go and use the same password for everything.

Anita
Anita
6 years ago
Reply to  Clementine

You can be pretty much assured that any account they give you access to isn’t the one they are using to contact the whore. Unless they are exceptionally stupid. It’s just so easy to get new accounts and there are all kinds of apps to hide texts, emails, etc. I even downloaded some myself to see if they work. They do.

GonnaBeOK
GonnaBeOK
6 years ago
Reply to  TiredChump

I heard the same thing: ED. And I reacted the same way. He was embarrassed and just couldn’t deal with it so I just went with it. Ultimately no intimacy at all.

During one of my moments of despair a few months ago, I said something to the effect that I had believed him about the ED but he has affairs with two women??? He said he wasn’t lying. And then said pathetically “it didn’t always work well with her”.

Aw, poor, sad, flaccid sausage. I think he wanted me to be sorry for him. I know he felt sad. I laughed.

AuntieMame
AuntieMame
6 years ago

When my STBX was leaving the house for the last time, I asked him “Are you maintaining a relationship with either of the whores?” and he asked me to “Define relationship.”

I had to laugh in his face.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  AuntieMame

Mine said, “Define cheating”

AuntieMame
AuntieMame
6 years ago
Reply to  GetMeFree

Pieces of dumb shit.

chumptastic
chumptastic
6 years ago

I have a good one… my cheater went to an event where he had a speaking engagement and invited his girlfriend as a VIP. He made sure she ha a front row seat. ( This was after the first d-day.) When I found out and confronted him his response was, ” I don’t remember telling you she would not be there, You never asked.” So it was my fault for not asking. So my new reality was that I needed to ask if she would be attending each and every event he went attended. But in his defense he didn’t lie to me about her attendance…:)

Sweet Redemption
Sweet Redemption
6 years ago
Reply to  chumptastic

I went through the exact same thing with my ex. It’s crazy. Got a lot of, “Well, you didn’t ask me that (whatever ‘that’) was at the time. I had to be very specific with my questions. I used to tell him he would make a great lawyer or politician. He thought it was a compliment. Idiot!

NoMoreEvil
NoMoreEvil
6 years ago

They all sound like guilty teenagers trying to lie their way out of stuff to their parents. These so-called husbands (or wives) need to grow the fuck up and stop “acting out” like a rebellious teen in an adult marriage.

Whodoesthat
Whodoesthat
6 years ago
Reply to  NoMoreEvil

Totally its like ‘if i lieand get away with it i win and you are stupid for believing ‘ ..what a fucktard its an immature approach to dealing with others that …cos u went along with it its on you ..

chump-tastic
chump-tastic
6 years ago
Reply to  chumptastic

This cracked me up (and I love your screenname, haha. great minds, right?). I had kind of the opposite situation: on D-Day #2, after I finally said “That’s it. We’re separated,” my cheater vowed that he would “show me” how trustworthy he could be and make me change my mind. ? He also refused to move out or even go stay somewhere else. So of course a couple of nights later he stayed out super late and came home wasted. In a Facebook search that lasted about five minutes, I was easily able to look up his and ho-worker’s favorite watering hole and see photos just posted of the events of the evening. Howorker’s, uh, “band” was playing and my cheater was standing in the front row, leering drunkenly at her Super Exciting, Sparkly, Loud, Crass Musician’s body. The fact that he even deigned to come back into my house makes my stomach turn to this day. Talk about a quick way to lose any and all attraction you ever had for your husband. Woof.

When I sat him down on the couch and said “Hey, even though we’re separated now, it’s just as important as ever for us to be honest with each other, because we won’t be in each other’s lives much and it will be really scary to not be able to trust the word of the other person who’s spending time with our toddler. So I really feel like we just need to set everything aside and just plain and simple communicate honestly whenever we talk, whether it be specifically about kid stuff or unrelated statements. Can we agree on that?”

“Yes!” he declared.

“Okay,” I said. “I noticed you came in super late tonight and it appears you’ve been drinking. Did you see Howorker tonight?”

“No.”

“I’ll try asking again. Was Howorker present when you were out tonight?”

“No, I dunno where she was.”

“Cheater, there are pictures of you all over the Watering Hole Facebook page, leering at her while she plays her um…music. You’re sitting here bald-faced lying to me.”

“Well I didn’t *know* she was going to be there ahead of time, so I didn’t *intend* to see her…”

“Oh really? So you went to your favorite bar where you always know exactly what’s going on with just aaaaabsolutely no knowledge that your favorite woman’s band was playing that night? And even just going there in general, probably the #1 place *not* to go if you were actually trying to avoid her. But you’re not. Clearly. Welp now I know exactly what your word is worth, and exactly how trustworthy you are.”

The sputtering and “but but but” garbage that came out of his mouth after that, trying to salvage the situation, isn’t even worth printing here. But you get it. These people will deny and deny and deny up to and even AFTER you confront them with the proof. Contriteness isn’t a thing in their world. This situation is almost identical to the one that happened on D-Day #1, and D-Day #2, and probably would have kept happening forever if I had allowed it.

I have never, and will never trust him, so long as I live. I don’t care what would make everybody else more comfortable, and I don’t care how many days or weeks he’s sometimes able to go between Big Obvious Lies. That’s my child he’s driving around drunkenly, and I will doubt him and doubt him (and document and document) until there’s no more breath in my body.

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  chump-tastic

Same here…and it sucks.

ANC
ANC
6 years ago

Lived it first hand. Still living it when it comes to my kids.

Pattering fuckwad has years of training to do this with clients. I never imagined or even considered this mirrroring douchebag could do this to his partners (check-steady serial cheater in ALL LT relationships including his MOW), children (check), employer (check), friends (check- mainly mine since he has none), extended family (check-mainly mine since he comes from a large nest of covert sociopaths).

Thanks for the article. Another affirmation of the toxicity of these assholes.

neverwouldhaveimagined
neverwouldhaveimagined
6 years ago

Cheater x said work was stressful (didn’t mention it was caused by screwing ho-workers), and I felt sorry for him. Also, he said he had late meetings (left out they were the illicit, infidelity sort), and I was proud he was working so hard.

How do they justify so much lying (in all it’s various forms)?!

HathNoFuryGoddess
HathNoFuryGoddess
6 years ago

Same here! But instead of about work (he worked from home) it was all about the band. So stressful, they don’t know how to do this or that or that new girl seems like she’s insecure, ect.

Complaining so much, I felt sorry too, gave suggestions, tried to be supportive. All while he was fucking that new girl in the band. Like he made a big scene about how annoyed he was with the band to throw me off the scent, so I wouldn’t be suspicious!

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
6 years ago

A person with conscience doesn’t feel compelled to explain or justify anything unless they have a tactical reason for doing so (to get what they want).

DistressedHeart
DistressedHeart
6 years ago
Reply to  Amiisfree

This reminds me of my XW…. even after the affair fizzled she maintains her lie. I don’t tell her I have the phone records that show something was going on. If your spouse all of sudden starts needing or losing lots of money. Better get ready for great abandonment.

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
6 years ago

Well, I certainly recognize this kind of behavior, but in the interest of truthfulness, I’m going to continue to call it lying.

This reminds me of my EX’s view of intent. If he didn’t “intend” to do something, then he still claims he didn’t do it, because action requires intent. So, if he has a relationship with another woman, he says it is not an affair as he only “intended” to help her out and never “intended” to get involved with her. He didn’t steal money from our lives because he “intended” to tell me about the second account he was diverting part of his pay check to. He didn’t “intend” to break windows in a fit of rage; he just threw some stuff because he was mad and the windows broke. Of course, no one can ever see inside his head to know his “intent,” so he will deny with a straight face anything that in retrospect has consequences he doesn’t like. Consequently, he refers to me as the “liar” for referring to his actions as adultery, theft, or destructive.

Ah, word salad, one of the finer courses served up by lying jackasses. Is “paltering” the croutons or the dressing for this course?

Sagefemme
Sagefemme
6 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

ugh so familiar “I never intentionally lied to you” takes on a new ring after reading your experience. Ok cuckoo bird well take your lack of intention elsewhere because you also clearly do not intend to maintain an honest relationship

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

OMG, yes. The biggest of these was, “I never meant to hurt you.” Said with an absolutely straight face, too.

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

To which the correct response is, “You did EVERYTHING in your power to hurt me, you lying fuckwit!”

NoMoreEvil
NoMoreEvil
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

+1,000,000, Tempest. It was actually very deliberate.

KathleenK
KathleenK
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

+1 Stealing!!

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I’m stealing this, Tempest. I have heard the “I didn’t mean to hurt you (and the kids)” too many times.

Artemis
Artemis
6 years ago

OMG, tiredchump. Your list mirrors mine. Why can’t they just look us in the eye and say, “I am selfish, I suck, and I have no remorse.” I might accept that. I keep trying to assign humanity, where there is none.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago

Surprise, surprise, the OW/OM gets the same in my opinion. “In contrast, examples of paltering would include any statements that allow the cheater to rationalize that (s)he is telling a truthful statement, while maintaining the deception so critical to cheating — for example: “I am not seeing Schmoopie at this time.”

The Limited: We have a sexless marriage.
Nanthony: He won’t cheat on ME

Lies are lies but for some reason these assholes have it down. I wasn’t cheating, we had a sexless marriage. Oh, poor baby, you are abused. I’d love to send her the phone records but no, they deserve each other.

DunChumpin
DunChumpin
6 years ago

They’re like 5 year olds.

Stop hitting your sister.
I’m not hitting her, I’m kicking her.

Difference is 5 year olds eventually mature, these fuckwits are as self aware as they will ever be.

Portia
Portia
6 years ago

I think when they successfully lie — and buy themselves more time to eat cake undisturbed — they feel they have proven (to themselves) once again how much smarter they are than we are. The concept of trust is not in their character — they use our trust to con us into believing something that is not true — based on our believing (in) them. We think we have something to rely on — their word — when actually we have accepted the defective building materials for a crumbling foundation. We build a house of delusion with defective materials, and then we are shocked when it tumbles to the ground. In the meantime, they can enjoy the luxury of deluding us, and the affair partner(s) and not doing any work at all. They think they are so smart that they can go on doing this forever, that we will never figure it out, nor will the AP. If we do — they will just replace us with another trusting domestic unit. Evidently the market is flooded with available models, just setting on the shelf, waiting to be used. Sad, but true.

I have added a modifier to my outlook now — trust but verify. I just don’t believe anything I am told until I have a chance to find out if it is true. I have no tolerance for lies — I cannot think of a single reason that would be acceptable for telling me a lie, understandable, perhaps, but not acceptable. At this point, why bother with a liar?

ChumpedToTheMax
ChumpedToTheMax
6 years ago

Him: I didn’t go see GF while I was visiting family in Germany.
Me: But you saw her in a town near you at a festival.
Him: I was telling her it was over.
Me: You promised you wouldn’t see her.
Him: I promised I wouldn’t go to Cologne to see her.
Me: So, driving to the next village to see her is the same thing.

Then he went into a 15 minute rant trying to explain what truth is to me, while at the same time bringing up things I did 15 years ago as he tried to switch the focus to me, not his cheating and lying.

ChumpedToTheMax
ChumpedToTheMax
6 years ago

Forgot to add, the next day I sent him an email explaining how I cannot trust him unless he is open and honest, I then included the definition of honest just in case he really didn’t know:

honesty:
1. the quality or fact of being honest, uprightness and fairness
2. truthfulness, sincerity, or frankness
3. freedom from deceit or fraud

he failed on all accounts

Lady B
Lady B
6 years ago

This is wing nut to a t, crazy making bullshit, dragging lame answers out of him and then look ‘there’s a squirrel’ Made me so pissed or he would kick off on a rant about how much he hates my Dad.

ChumpedToTheMax
ChumpedToTheMax
6 years ago
Reply to  Lady B

talking doesn’t do any good, they are experts at switch and bait…so i just don’t speak to him anymore, life is sooooo much better!

GetMeFree
GetMeFree
6 years ago

This++++++++

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago

My X had a Ph.D. in paltering. Favorite example, after I found his hand-written notes suggesting an affair with an undergraduate: “I never so much as held hands with her.”

True, they never held hands, merely had an extended bout of oral sex. Then she told him he’d have to leave his wife (me) for her to go any further.

insistonhonesty
insistonhonesty
6 years ago

“Spouses aren’t invited.” My ho-worker and I have made the decision to not invite *our* spouses. Passive-voiced bullshit. He didn’t say WHO decided that spouses weren’t invited… just *that* they weren’t.

Me: Do you want to be married and be a participatory parent or not?
Cheater: I’m HERE and DOING things, aren’t I? If I really wanted to go, wouldn’t I just leave?

Me, after coming home from errands to him gaming when I’d asked him to take our three children to the park: Did you go to the park?
Cheater: Of course I did! You don’t trust me to do ANYTHING right!
(Met up with his whore and the children she was nannying and spent some QT together while the kids played, then took them for ice cream.)

JC
JC
6 years ago

RE: “What a crazy, wild ride it’s been.”

Back when I was married, we were at my wife’s cousin’s, “Ann’s,” for dinner.

Ann had a coffee table book that was a glorified checklist that scored how well the reader had “lived.”

Some questions were good:

Have you been to Europe? Asia? Montana? Toledo? Here’s your respective points for each.

Had children. 100 points.
Successfully raised them: 2000 points.
Sky-dived? 20 points.
Had sex in an inappropriate place? 10 points.
Threesome? 5 points.

All good, harmless fun…even if the point value assigned to each could be debated.

But there were also questions like:

Have you ever stolen something? Points are equal to the dollar value of the item stolen.

Have you ever cheated on a boyfriend/girlfriend? A spouse? Had an affair? Here’s your respective number of points.

Are you still with your spouse? The AP? Here’s your respective points for that.

I was uncomfortable with those types of questions–not because I’d never done anything (I stole a few packs of candy as a kid, etc.) or because I didn’t like reading about these topics.

I didn’t like that the book equated harmful decisions with “living.”

Being reckless and harming others is not “wild and crazy.” It doesn’t mean you’ve lived a full, rich life. It just means you’re an asshole.

Free Vix
Free Vix
6 years ago
Reply to  JC

What a poor excuse for a book. It should be titled “How to Live a Life of Tittilation and Regret.” I’d prefer a version that awards points for rescuing shelter animals, volunteering, smiling at strangers, being kind, passing he parking spot so the person behind you can have it. I would rather live a life of meaning than a shallow life of fun-then-run.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago
Reply to  JC

I like Asshole. It’s just a fitting word for these kind of people. It’s not so vulgar but still gets to the point One of many I suppose.

CL – maybe we can do a topic on best Names to call cheaters. Or maybe that’s been done. ?

Mg
Mg
6 years ago

Ah, a new term in the arsenal for us to feebly try and get a grasp on the slippery turds that they are…
My fave expression he threw my way this past weekend: “I’m not hurting you ”
Yes. As in that very second. In that particular instance he was sitting on the couch while i was sat at the dining table. Our newest blowup was because i snooped his phone and discovered an article he thumbed through (probably with his penis) about ” sexy underbutt tattoos you won’t be able to resist enjoying “. After a week of again shitting on the wife. After only calling to bitch and moan how sucky his life is and how much be hates going to work. After saying he got rid of the porn and erotica obsession, so he doesn’t fill me with hatred about his brain being a jumble of ass and vaginas and tits while we have sex. Again, the intimacy in me is fucking ruined. I again found myself in tears, trying to explain to a grown man how hurt i am. His replies? “I was admiring womens beauty” “i didn’t have time to text you” “do you know how slow my data signal is? It took me 15 minutes to load the pictures because of all the ads!”
No, i can’t go NC. No,i can’t run away, as much as I’d like to. No, i can’t divorce him. We are legally bound for another few years, otherwise i will never be able to see my son again (from a previous marriage), at least not for 15 years.
Two things you all need to take from my experience
1) unicorns don’t exist, leopards don’t change their spots, never dance with the devil…
2) they are all turds. All of them. That is their worth. Perfume can mask the stench only for so long before you start smelling the shit for what it is.

KathleenK
KathleenK
6 years ago
Reply to  Mg

Mg – your story is sad and concerning. It sounds like you are physically stuck with him for a while, but I wonder if you could use the time to slowly change your thought patterns and try to disengage from him as much as possible? For example, really truly believe that he is a liar with NO empathy and so perhaps you won’t share your thoughts and feelings with him. He won’t give you what you need (empathy and caring) so it might be best to go else for understanding – here at CL or a friend? Also, time spent stuck with him will make it easier to make a move when you are able to. You will truly trust that he sucks and won’t waste time in wreconciliation. There are many of us who have stuck it out with a lying cheating piece of shit for a long time (2 1/2 years for me!) before we were ready to go. If you can get therapy do it! Use the time to educate, protect, and make yourself stronger. It sounds like you are in a tough position. I’m so sorry. ((((Hugs)))

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  Mg

Mg: I’m having a hard time trying to figure out how divorcing this fuckwit will prevent you from seeing your son from a previous marriage?? Please at least go see a lawyer; there are almost always options (e.g., could you stay married but live apart?). If you share some of your story here or in the forums, you’ll be amazed at the breadth of legal and tactical knowledge that members of chump nation hold as a result of our own struggles.

No one can live like you are living. Years of depression and anxiety will cause health problems, almost guaranteed. I do hope that you’ll let us help you explore some options. Huge hugs your way.

Mg
Mg
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

All i can say is – he’s my sponsor spouse. If i lose my case here in the US i will have to go to EU and my son stays with his dad. That’s it. All avenues will close for years. He knows this, too.

JesssMom
JesssMom
6 years ago
Reply to  Mg

Mg:

I was stuck for three years (for a variety of reasons) – and that emotional crash you’re experiencing is something I felt in my bones for too long. Some things that helped me: reading here at Chump Lady; reading books (a great distraction for the overwrought brain); listening to motivational lectures online (through headphones) while working out, cleaning, etc; and making plans to better my life (dreaming about classes I’d like to take, “window shopping” for pretty home decor online; etc.).

Basically, I tried to inundate my brain with some kind of positive messaging to stave off the horrifying depression and the constant wave of new bullshit coming from my disordered fuckwit. Being stuck in the negative thought cycles is not conducive to functioning. But, I needed to function — even if not for myself, then for my kids. This was my saving grace that forced me forward, it forced me to listen to positive messages (even when I didn’t want to hear them).

In my experience, the hardest part of being stuck is getting sucked back in when he’s on “charm channel” — then the rug gets pulled out from under us again … then charm channel … then he pulls the rug … and round-and-round we go. Every time he pulled the rug, he made the wounds even deeper than they had been — and, seriously, who thought they could get deeper than they already were?!

Do your best to put your shield up to prevent yourself from falling for the charm channel (“I’m so sorry; I love you; I will never look at porn again; you are right — I need to fix myself so I can be a better partner” … it’s ALL bullshit. You may need to actively talk to yourself in your own head when he’s pulling this crap — in order to remind yourself that he has already shown you WHO he is … repeatedly.)

Like you (and, well every Chump here) – I loved my disordered fuckwit with all of my being for a very long time. So, I caved a LOT — and I got the rug pulled out from under me every single time.

But, slowly, over the three years, I started seeing him more and more clearly and the “caving” got further and further apart. And now we are finally separated. The relief is beautiful — it’s liberating.

Keep your eye on the light at the end of the tunnel. I promise you — it is there. And you will get there too. Sending a virtual (((HUG))) your way.

Take Care,
Jess’s Mom

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  Mg

Why are you so stuck, Mg? I am sorry if you told it elsewhere, but I don’t know your story. Is there any way to escape?

Mg
Mg
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

Thank you. But I’d rather not talk about it anymore. I’ve never shared more than a few snippets of what I’m living. I’m so flippin depressed and feel like my life is wasting away. I’ve loved a turd for years. I come here a few days to read articles and keep my head sort of clear about the turdish behaviors and remind myself that it’s all lies and smoke and mirrors to keep my cake well frosted for the taking. I found CL after ddays, of course. When it hurt so much i thought i was going to die.
He never hurt me physically, he’s smart like that. He just loves the sadistic psychological torture. I feel dead inside, honestly.

Doingme
Doingme
6 years ago
Reply to  Mg

Mg, talk as little as you can to him. Give short answers. Take up walking, go to the library, paint your walls, refinish furniture outside. You get the picture. Do things to get you away from him and the chaos. Stash away cash as often as you can. Get a safety deposit box.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
6 years ago
Reply to  Mg

I am sorry you are in so much pain, Mg. I will pray you get strength reading the stories here. There are quite a few of us who felt this very same way and are now thriving. Anything is possible.

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  Mg

I understand not wanting to talk about it right now. Very sorry for what you are living. If you ever do get to the place of wanting to examine it in the company of others–or even just tell it all for your own sanity–this is the space for that. Sending you warmest thoughts of healing and support.

Mg
Mg
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

Thank you <3

Free Vix
Free Vix
6 years ago

My ex was great at this, though he was perfectly happy to lie outright as well. My favorite example was when he told me shortly before our wedding that there was a rumor going around his workplace that he was having an affair with a particular coworker. He scoffed and got worked up about the indignity of such an accusation. I asked if there was any truth to the rumor, and he vehemently denied it. In truth he was having an affair with a *different* coworker, so his statement was technically true. I then mentioned that I was surprised the rumor didn’t involve the coworker he was actually sleeping with (unbeknownst to me at the time) because of the frequency at which he spoke of her. His response: “She’s married.” Also technically true, but that didn’t stop either of them.

It’s like the concept of the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. The same applies to honesty. If you’re not meeting the spirit of honesty, you’re deceiving. (Not that most cheaters and abusers have a problem with that. They shrug their shoulders and move on.)

JC
JC
6 years ago
Reply to  Free Vix

Yes, it was technically true that “she’s married.”

But her divorce was progressing, *specifically because* I’d left her cheating ass for screwing him!

Eight months earlier, with me, she just couldn’t keep her stories straight about you. Either you were his ex, or you weren’t his ex, and/or you and he were having a hard time because he lived so far away…and he was so lonesome and needed a “friend.”

They put all information on a “need-to-know” basis, with “need” defined only by their own selfish want.

msquag
msquag
6 years ago
Reply to  JC

OMG! “They put all information on a “need-to-know” basis, with “need” defined only by their own selfish want”. You just quoted my ex. From the moment we met 30 some years ago, he’d tell me how this and that person were on a “need to know” basis, and he’s the one that determines whether they “need to know”. At that time so many years ago, he was referring to his parents – at least that’s what I thought. Little did I know that he put me on a need to know basis as well.

CeliA
CeliA
6 years ago
Reply to  msquag

Initially I thought his “need to know” attitude and how he is often not forthcoming with sharing things about himself to other people was a sign of shyness and humility. He also shares info in vague terms like “same as always, just doing this, you know”.

In hindsight, I realized that his vague-ness/evasiveness = shadiness and was just another image-management tool in his kit.

STBX I believe is a covert N.

Free Vix
Free Vix
6 years ago
Reply to  JC

Ah, truth…such a malliable concept. for some

cashmere
cashmere
6 years ago
Reply to  Free Vix

I think of this as equivovocation. So, if friends come and carry you out of the house and into a car in which you cruise and drink beer all night, and the carry you back in at some point, then you could sure tell your mom that you never “stepped out of the house.” Factually correct. No steps taken. Totally lie, though.

Dealing with a narc is like being a linguist in a frigid land where there are ten thousand words for snow. Suddenly, we need a whole vocabulary just to distinguish between the various species of lies, but even though that’s kind of fun intellectually for a lover of language, in practice they have all amounted to the same thing, and led to the same devastating land of betrayal, heartache, and family destruction.

At some point, I don’t really want to dwell on exactly what types of weaponry and ammunition caused these wounds. I just need to get off the battlefield in one piece, focus on life beyond war, and let the gradual–all too gradual, but real–healing unfold.

Lady B
Lady B
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

Talking to mine is such a head fuck that when I’m having a normal conversation with someone say at work I feel refreshed and think wow this is what normal is, wow they ask about me and are interested in things outside of themselves wow.

KathleenK
KathleenK
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

Your “linguist in a frigid land with 10,000 words for snow” comment made me laugh. Yes, so true!

Tempest
Tempest
6 years ago
Reply to  KathleenK

Loved that, too. And Whorf was apparently right–cheaterspeak engages concepts of deception that we cannot relate to because they are lost in translation.

BlueWillow
BlueWillow
6 years ago
Reply to  cashmere

OMG yes to this – lingual gymnastics is exhausting. So happy to be (mostly) NC as even the very infrequent communication is still mindfucking.

Anita
Anita
6 years ago

A lie is a lie, no matter what you call it. An attempt to deceive , for your own gain. There is the truth, there are lies, and there are opinions. The only acceptable “lies” are keeping your opinions to yourself to not hurt other people’s feelings. Yes, that dress is pretty, your new hairstyle looks nice, I don’t want that last piece of pie.

Whatever vehicle you use to deliver your lie is irrelevant. Outright lies, lies of omission, pandering, whatever. Who cares, you’re still a fucking liar.

ImAPhool
ImAPhool
6 years ago

I had started to record our conversations for a while just so he couldn’t go back and claim he didn’t say this but that or try to get off on technicalities, aka Lies. Pathetic

ChumpedupChik
ChumpedupChik
6 years ago
Reply to  ImAPhool

This! When you find yourself recording conversations or printing out email/text conversation strings and squirreling them away (bc cheater will go in and erase them all) so you can PROVE they lied? At some point I came to a big “WTF am I doing?” moment and realized the burden of proof was on the lying liarhole and not me. Why was I then only one looking for the truth? Bc he KNEW what he was saying after the fact was not true…..HE didn’t need to double check bc he knew and was just gaslighting me. Palm meet forehead. I told that lying liarhole that I’d wasted enough of my time trying to believe him and my going back and looking to check that I wasn’t remembering wrong, only proved what a massive lying liarhole he was. All. The. Damn. Time.

It’s full on crazy making and this is the kind of shit that will suck out your soul. I’m sorry bc I know the disorientation, confusion and feeling like you just need to SHOW him and then somehow he’ll get it? Ugh. He gets it already. I did the same record-keeping in most all forms of communication. Another good reason to try to go as NC or as grey rock as possible and force them to keep things in writing via email. It’s easier to save and deal with it if it’s in an email. Texts are hard to print and read…..but I digress, I finally refused all voice calls from him and refused to talk to him in person no matter that he’s still in the house. Grey rocking it and white knuckling it most of the time. Ugh!

I’m sad for you bc I know how this kind of desperate shit to stay sane ends…..I think we all do and we just have to go through it anyway. 🙁 Maybe we can go through it a little better/faster bc of what we learn here from the others who’ve already suffered this maddening mayhem. I hope so ? Big hugs

PutAForkInMe
PutAForkInMe
6 years ago