Is “Sex Addiction” Real?
The other day the comments on “Pain Shopping” got off on a tangent about sex addiction. Gee, I’ve been wanting to discuss that for awhile.
Apparently, the lovely blameshifting term “pain shopping” comes from sex addiction therapists.
Thanks guys. Here’s a term back-atcha: “Bullshit.”
The sex addiction model goes: if you’re partnered with a serial cheater, hey, you just need to reframe that. It’s not that they don’t want to keep in their pants, it’s that they’re helpless in the face of their addiction. It’s going to take a Higher Power and a lot of 12-step to stay faithful to you. So, just wait patiently for the poor sausage to detox.
See, they’re coping with their pain through their drug of choice, sex. There are probably some complicated FOO issues going on. The skein will take some time and expense to untangle. Relapse is likely. Understandable even. Stay the course, chumps, because your addict needs you!
Fact is, your average hopium-filled chump will cling to a diagnosis like “sex addiction,” because now this senseless fucking around has a name. It’s a condition. Better yet, it’s a condition that requires your support. (Chumps are great at support! This is our wheelhouse!)
So why am I skeptical of sex addiction?
1) It seems like a handy label to absolve cheaters from responsibility. Hey, I’m not an asshole, I have a disease. Addiction is a disease! (Actually, even addiction isn’t considered a brain disease by a lot of prominent neuroscientists.)
Our brains learn to like pleasure. The more you reinforce pleasure, the more the brain learns to wire itself that way. But it’s not a disease. Marc Lewis, PhD a developmental neuroscientist explains it thus:
In fact, each highly rewarding experience builds its own network of synapses in and around the nucleus accumbens (NAC), and that network sends a signal to the midbrain: I’m anticipating x, so send up some dopamine, right now! That’s the case with romantic love, Paris, and heroin. During and after each of these experiences, that network of synapses gets strengthened: so the “specialization” of dopamine uptake is further increased. London just doesn’t do it for you anymore. It’s got to be Paris. Pot, wine, music…they don’t turn your crank so much; but cocaine sure does. Physical changes in the brain are its only way to learn, to remember, and to develop. But we wouldn’t want to call learning a disease.
2) Unlike addiction to drugs or alcohol, no one gets the delirium tremors if they don’t get laid. You’re not going to go through withdrawal. You might be a moody son-of-a-bitch, but you’re certainly not going to go into cardiac arrest if you quit fucking hookers.
3) Similar to the Reconciliation Industrial Complex (RIC), there seems to be a money-making therapy business built around “sex addiction.” What they both have in common? Keeping chumps chumpy.
It’s the way a diagnosis of sex addiction is used to somehow absolve men and women (though mostly men) of all responsibility for their actions that is, in my opinion, the most malign feature of the sex addiction industry. Many of the true believers reject all the science and research that confronts their theories and work desperately to find ways to justify foolish, self-destructive choices and sexual behaviours. They blame these choices on neurochemicals, porn, a history of sexual abuse and myriad other factors, all of which can help us to understand how and why people make the choices they do, but none of which, ultimately, takes away control or personal responsibility.
Yes, let’s talk about that personal responsibility. A cheater who calls themselves a “sex addict” may have a host of real mental conditions that require years of therapy. I’m not saying they don’t — I’m questioning why the hell chumps should stick around while they work that out? As I’ve said about sex addiction on this blog before, it doesn’t matter what flavor of fucked up it is — GET AWAY FROM IT. It’s either okay with you that your partner fucks around on you or it’s not. There is no middle path of supporting them while they learn how not to fuck around on you. That’s just another form of cake eating.
And dear God, do you want a partner that needs a monogamy 12-step? Don’t you deserve better than a partner who must do the Serenity Prayer to be faithful to you?
IMO, people fuck around because THEY LIKE IT. (Addicts get high for the same reason. It feels good. It works.) What do sex addicts have in common with other addicts? They’ll lie and manipulate to get their fix.
I think you all have better things to do with your life than wait for a “sex addict” to get sober.
“I’m questioning why the hell chumps should stick around while they work that out? ”
5% cure rate; same as narcissism.
Not good odds. Run.
I’ve read just about everything out there available. Attended the program for partners of sex addicts, which was quite depressing, didn’t help me. Stumbled across this site, and after almost four years living with a sex addict (irresponsible, selfish, narcissistic, sociopath), this site is right on target!! Keep up the good work. Laughter is the best medicine. I have left the piece of shit, and found the beautiful woman I allowed him to destroy. Best to you all. I do hope you find peace within, and move on with living life fully!
Exquisitively put Tempest! My now-x (and I use x in the lower case…deliberately), is what I thought a sex addict – except he didn’t want it with me. Now I realize the great I AM, is really just a “i wish i was”.
Post Script: my Divorce papers have been finalized – I picked them up at the courthouse yesterday. Thank you so much Chump Nation for motivation and support.
Congrats, Boudica! It is a huge relief (I’m 13 days out from my divorce being finalized)!
13 days Tempest – waay hay! 😀 Decree Nisi is set for 26th March for me – then 6 weeks later – all done. dusted and assigned to ‘the terrible nightmare’ pile for me!
Freedom day for me falls on the same date he got a hotel with his druggie whore last year,May 18th. When I look back I realize what I thought was the worst year of my life was necessary to truly gain my life back. This journey helped my realize how to set boundaries and to trust myself. Being discarded made me finally face the pain and fears and gave me the clarity I needed to file. It is a great comfort to know it does get better.
By my estimate Decree Absolute should be done somewhere mid May too – so I’ll be raising a glass with you too Donna 😀 Health, wealth, peace and happiness to us both! x
Sprouting chumps!
Here’s a toast to upcoming Spring – new
life for several of us it appears – sprouting up
all over the place.
The 26th March would have been my 39th anniversary. Please have a drink or sip for me too ladies!!
I’ll raise a glass to you Maree and to us all! Health, wealth, peace and happiness and congratulations for weathering the storm! xx
Will do, Maree!
I’ll have champagne on hand March 26th to toast your freedom from The Great I Am, Jayne!
Thanks hun 😀
Congrats Boudica Reborn! I also am going to be picking up my freedom papers! Feels SO good!
Congrats Boudica Reborn and Roberta!!! confettie flying around and fireworks and stuff! 🙂
It must feel so amazing! Happy for both of you!
That 5% cure rate is totally false. There is absolutely no data to support even that much recovery. How sad is that? A 5% recovery rate is too high.
I tend to agree. It’s more likely that 5% learn how to hide their cheating better and so appear “cured.” Or maybe–maybe–that given the passage of enough time (DECADES) a small percentage of folks age out of their manic sexual behaviors.
or suffer Erectile Dysfunction, or cease being able to attract partners.
Like the car salesmen always say, “there’s an ass for every seat.”
Endless supply of Schmoopies too !!!
Ugh, that 5% is just enough for a chump to cling to. 🙁
So you’re saying there’s a chance…..lol
LOL Ashley 😀
So you are saying there is a chance…so funny, so sad!
Lol!!! I like what you did there, Ashley. Never a bad time for a Dumb and Dumber quote!
Would it be accepted if I claimed to have a movie quoting addiction and only spoke in one-liners from my favorite comedies?
Seems legit….
LOL! 🙂
nah, I don’t even believe there is 5%, more likely 0.00001%. Just saying 😉
I’m thinking 5% cure rate is maybe a statistical error since the sample size of freaks being treated is sort of low.
Actually IF they got decent data, the sample size would be huge for Sex Addiction Twelve Step programs. (I think porn use and paying for phone sex. internet sex etc is even more common than cheating and/or paying for ‘live’ sex.) Every major city in North America has multiple groups and specialized therapists and co-dependency groups for the spouses ….
Now, getting decent data, that is a whole ‘nother kettle of fish ….
KarenE so glad you listed all those other forms of ‘sex addiction’. Ex had the full range from day (the affairs prostitutes came later but who knows?) and other addictions alcohol, himself, drugs. I look back and can’t believe I stuck around through it all. At the beginning 15 years ago with all the porn and chat lines drink drugs etc I think I was naive. On D day 6 years ago I was ready to file but set up the wrong sort of mediator. Instead of mediating for divorce I got mediation for reconciliation. And I got the blame I got sex addiction i got suckered in. With no firm support and 6 months pregnant I didn’t know whether I was coming or going. The reconciliation industry sex addiction therapy industry has a lot to answer for. I stayed in an impossible marriage with gangster level gaslighting and when I needed third party help to get the hell out. I was told it was my fault. Still traumatised. Now I’m over a year into divorce battle all because he wants to crucify me and the children after walking out on us.
🙁
But at least he is gone.
Donna–Lol! (If we don’t laugh, we’ll cry, right?)
I think he tried the twelve step program
Karen
Linda
Sharron
Dianna
Cheryl
Judy
Jennifer
Joanne
Lori
Carrie
Darleen
Nancy
I left out the other 12 he failed.
as I said somewhere … those aren’t anecdotes; it’s small-batch artisanal data 😉
Let’s define ‘cure’. Is it one day, month, year, or decade of not cheating? Who is doing the follow up? Who is answering the question “How long has it been since you last cheated on someone?” If it’s the cheater lying (err answering)?
Oh yeah, that’s some solid data…
Even at 100% recovery, no one has the right to put my life at risk even once. Double bullshit excuse for self centered.
Agreed with all.
Thankfully, my STBX never claimed to be a sex addict…he’s more likely A-sexual & just a regular awkward skeezy weirdo. BUT I’ve heard the sex addict garb too much in the media and I call bullshit.
You’re not facing an actual physical or mental dependency issue, you just like sex. Hell, so do I. But my love of sex doesn’t make me hurt innocent people, fool a dedicated person into committing to me while I act promiscuously or call up male gigalos to pleasure me in the ten minutes I’m alone during my day. No, that would be my selfishness, entitlement and lack of conscience….which would make me a narcissist, a sociopath and/or any other host of personality disorders that revolve around lack of empathy and lack of accountability.
I believe mine threw that term around once but that’s about it. He pretty much hid everything, not even sure how much or how often he watched porn. If he was doing it very much he was doing it from his phone. As I said before though…. I did find a link to a “hidden” forum in Craig’s List on his Ipad awhile back…. and I’m with you TBJamie… my love of sex doesn’t include the desire for random partners or getting it anywhere I can and risking inflicting destruction and pain on my partner as well as my children. When I was younger and single and a little more wild…. I still never had multiple partners, even at that point and under wilder circumstances I had a conscience about putting myself and other people at risk.
Call me cynical but I believe it’s partially a construct of the insurance industry
. If your insurance provides mental health benefits, you may be eligible for a whole host of benefits because you have a now have a behavioral addiction. Your can go away, be contrite, be rehabilitated and resume your career and probably your shenanigans too, shortly after
It happens in politics and the corp world a lot.
I’m not a believer.
However I do have a serious Girl Scout cookie. problem. Insurance doesn’t cover it
That path is being traveled as we speak… yesterday, I saw a commercial for a drug that treats “B.E.D.” Oh yes – Binge Eating Disorder. It says this is not the same as Ana/Bulemia disorders. ::headdesk::
http://www.ibtimes.com/binge-eating-disorder-drug-vyvanse-controversial-adhd-medication-approved-fda-1808100
Because apparently, the problem is not that people WON’T control themselves… it’s that they CAN’T? Grrrrr.
I’m going to put an unpopular opinion out here, but there is a point so bear with me. I had an eating disorder when I was in HS/early college. It is an addictive, compulsive behavior and it does tand quite a bit if help to stop along with a true desire to change the pattern. (Not to be gross, but you clearly need help when you can’t will yourself out of binging on over 100 dollars of junk food and throwing it all up only to be compelled to do the same thing the next day.)
I can believe there such a thing as sex addiction. That said, I DO NOT think its the partner’s job to eat repeated shit sandwiches, endure repeated betrayals, etc. just to prove their love for their spouse. Also, I doubt it helps the sex addict curtail their acting out If society tells them that acting out should somehow be tolerated. The message should be: you aren’t capable of being the partner your spouse needs. You need to do the right thing and leave so that they can work on getting their life back. That would be real love, not grasping cake eating. From what I’ve seen on here, though, most sex addicts are probably also narcissists. They would never walk away from a good supply when their only motive would be to do right by someone else.
In short, addiction doesn’t excuse hurting others and others should not be expected to tolerate it.
Absolutely agree, KT, chapter and verse!
I can totally buy that. I do believe that people can become truly addicted to ANYTHING. Food, video games, sex, booze, drugs, gambling, collecting things, and so on. I believe this because there are a few addicts in my family. Two of them stopped drinking, completely. Only now they are addicted to something else (food and healthy nuttery respectively). The new addiction is less destructive, but they are just as compelled just the same.
I think some people are just more susceptible mentally to addiction issues and behaviors. We all have things that we really like, but for some reason people with addictive type personalities just ramp that up to unreasonable levels.
But. I still agree with Chump Lady.
I don’t think for one second you should stay with anyone who abuses you so they can get their fix of what ever their addiction of choice is. I wouldn’t want to stay married to someone who gambled away my retirement, or couldn’t stop fucking the neighbors, or filled my home to the roof with beanie babies. That person is just saying in a nutshell, “me and what I want and what makes me feel good is more important than you. And I don’t care if you get hurt”. And who the hell wants to live with someone that selfish?
Yes, I didn’t understand addiction before I became addicted to my prescription of Adderral and the dopamine release it provided. The drug was making me “tweaked” and I started a skin picking compulsion that was absolutely horrifying. I knew everything was wrong and I still took it anyway. I did a lot of damage to my relationships, my face, and my employment history before I was able to stop. I hated it, and I did it anyway. I loved the dopamine, the feeling of clarity (which was a mirage), the way I could dissassociate and even feel a high when I picked at my skin.
I apologize for grossing anyone out, I just wanted to share that anyone is susceptible to the chemical tricks of dopamine. A lot of the things our cheaters do also gross me out. The idea of prostitutes, weird and dangerous sexual situations etc.
We cannot allow ourselves to be hurt by them, but it helps just a little bit to think that it wasn’t personal, they truly have some sort of problem.
I actually never caught my first narcissistic x cheating, and it’s possible he didn’t. Our relationship ended because he was psychologically, verbally, and sometimes physically abusive. Once I moved on, I never wasted much time feeling angry, because I know something is very wrong in his head and he didn’t choose to be that way.
I am really upset that the second x did some of the things he did and lied. It hurts. But I hope to get to a point with it where I can also learn to not take it personally. He is a functional drug addict, alcoholic, gambler, and he cheats for the thrill of the bluff. Winning the game by not showing your partner your cards. There is a high involved with that too.
The only way I can begin to understand him is to think about what I was doing with the Adderral. It was turning me into a huge jerk and I was disfiguring myself. I am finally to the point where the idea of it is repulsive and I do not seek it out (fill a prescription), but I fear if it was in front of me, I might stick it in my mouth and swallow.
Thank you for sharing this, Jen. Very brave of you. 🙂
We’ve all got our secrets and things we’ve done that we aren’t proud of. Good for you for getting past yours and sharing your experience with us.
Jen, this was a really honest, candid and thoughtful post, thank you. The empathy you obviously have because you know what it is to ‘have fallen’ is what makes chumps of us. We give passes because we know life is hard and we too have made mistakes, so we put up with the compulsive behaviours and the lies and the deceits because we remember times when we weren’t perfect. Thing is though Jen – were you picking at your lovers skin? were you telling your lover that they were evil people for objecting to you picking at their skin? Were you asking your lover ‘what do you mean I’m picking at your skin – no I’m not’! or – ‘you are my lover, I’m entitled to pick at your skin’. I’m sure you didn’t Jen, just as I’m equally sure you would be actively seeking help with your compulsion if you were to find yourself knowingly being compelled to hurt your lover. I’m sure about this Jen because you are a Chump and empathy made you a Chump and empathy would stop you letting your compulsions keep hurting the people you love.
Very nicely said Jayne, I agree 😀
Thank you Jayne, I am trying really hard to work my way through this, and I can’t believe he is a bad person who wants to hurt me. But he was hurting me and I can’t stand there and take it anymore.
The Adderral thing was a suprise. I started taking it (by prescription) at 39 and stopped completely for the last time about three months ago. The last two years it was clearly the cause of my skin picking compulsion, (it came on over time and stress and lack of control in my life) but I continued to take it anyway, thinking if I could achieve perfect skin, all would be well.
Some of that ridiculousness chased my “lover” away. I’m not so sure that’s a bad thing, as I am really done with his compulsions too. But I just don’t have the heart to say either of us are bad people. We are tragically flawed like a Greek play. I do not want him near me if he is going to hurt me anymore, but I can’t bring myself to hate him. The skin stuff did hurt him. I worked for him and all his employees thought I was nuts. I wasn’t trying to hurt him and he wasn’t trying to hurt me. Dopamine in excessive amounts is a dangerous chemical.
So he doesn’t get a pass, I’m just saying sometimes people do really strange things for chemical reasons. I can recognize that certain chemicals were turning me into a full blown asshole. I want to change that, so I stopped ingesting (or creating a situation) that led to the secretion of said chemical.
I still love him, but I do not want to participate in the pain of his situation either. I am walking away for my good and his. I do not scar myself anymore physically and I am walking away from the senario that was scarring me emotionally. I am done. I wish him health.
Agreed. I think it’s ultimately up to the person with addictive tendancies to keep tabs on things. Unfortunately it’s often easier to blame others instead of acknowledging your own issues. That’s what many addicts tend to do.
I’m all for self medicating with cookies. And milk. Carbs and dairy product addiction!
// ,
Organic milk.
And for a mother like me, who has been selling those f*cking cookies for 21 years at my calculation, thanks you dearly… If I never see another GS cookie it will be too soon.
I always buy 5-6 boxes and give them to my ball players (after extricating a few Thin Mints.) I remember the days when we all sold door to door in a little town and I’m sure there were people who bought a box from every Girl Scout. So I am paying in forward for as long as their are cookies and I am alive…
I know! Thank goodness those little girls in green touting carbs-in-a-box are only doing so 6 weeks of the year.
“IMO, people fuck around because THEY LIKE IT.”
Exactly! in a nut shell! I am so sick of hearing this sex addiction bullshit!
The way I look at it, they can go fuck around, but without us in their lives to put up with their shit! Let their fuck partners, take care of them, the chores, the finances and whatever…and their addiction!
PS: Great post Tracy!!
“Similar to the Reconciliation Industrial Complex (RIC), there seems to be a money-making therapy business built around “sex addiction.” What they both have in common? Keeping chumps chumpy.” The sex addiction therapy business is a HUGE money maker and what makes it even more heinous is most of the CSATs (Certified Sex Addiction Therapists) are themselves “sex addicts” or “former sex addicts” who are making money off of the trauma of partners and in the process further traumatizing them by labeling them co-addicts or co-dependents. The standard advice given to partners of “sex addicts” is to stay in the marriage for AT LEAST a year to support the addict AKA the abuser and of course admitting their “role” in the addiction is required as well. WTF?! IMO, having a “sex addict” or “recovered/recovering sex addict” counsel the partner of a “sex addict” is akin to allowing a “former” rapist to counsel a rape victim.
There is a movement afoot to change the co-addict/co-dependent model led by Dr. Omar Minwalla in Los Angeles. Other options for partners include Partners of Sex Addicts Resource Center (POSARC), the Married to a Sex Addict web site and the Sisterhood of Support (SOS) web site. I am a member of SOS and we regularly refer our members to your blog and to Dr. George Simon as well. Like you, we are firm believers that this is NOT an addiction but the result of various personality disorders. Treating it as an addiction is really just excusing the behavior. Guilting the partner into tolerating the intolerable in the hope of recovery is just plain wrong. No one “recovers” from a personality disorder. You can learn to live with someone who has one but you should go into it with your eyes wide open about what you’re dealing with and not with the mistaken notion that you are somehow to blame and are responsible for fixing it.
Oh an thank you once again CN for valuable resources. Am now reading Dr Minwalla. Great info there.
I was experiencing serious “treatment-induced-trauma” at the hands of “recovered” sex addicts (CSATs) and others trained by them (more CSATs). If you are partnered with someone who has indulged in secret sexual activities at your expense, and you seek “help” from these “professionals” (CSATs), be prepared for the mindfuck of the century.
I was certain I had a remorseful unicorn. What I found out in CSATland was that as the partner, I was sicker than my “addict”, responsible for the (secret) dysfunction, and the primary obstacle to his recovery. Yep. Even though the activities predated me by two decades and continued after I left, it was ME that was triggering the problem. My porn junkie was happy to adopt the premise that he is a traumatized co-victim of a co-addict (me). The Struggle Is Real.
I have solved that problem for us both by removing myself from the equation. He has re-engaged with his ‘hobby’, and is no longer being traumatized by me.
Meh.
POSARC, ChumpLady, Dr. Simon, Dr. Minwalla, & SOS saved my sanity. <3 Love you, Tracy!
Yes! Yes! Yes! ForkinEye, TRUTH!!
Help from CSATs = mindfuck of the century.
I owe my ability to actually file to Dr. Minwalla. He really opened my eyes to what I was dealing with. And he warned me to be careful. That my particular cheater was also probably dangerous. And to prepare. Right he was. Mr. Crazyass broke into my house, assaulted me, scared and traumatized my children. Oh, he also went to JAIL.
Dr. Minwalla rocks.
ForkinEye, This is so true. Wish every newly discovering partner of a so called SA could read your comment here. SA therapy is a corrupt, twisted and backwards, blame the victim set up and it does harm partners of these narcissistic pervs.
Just wanted to chime in about SOS–that site was a life saver for me! There is lots of dialog and comradery between women going through similar situations. Of course almost every newcomer (including me) goes there looking for hope/answers and thinking they are the exception rather than the rule. For some women the dose of reality provided by the stories and ongoing drama that is shared is too “negative”. What is so funny is that no one goes there because they hate their partners and want out–everyone goes there to find a way to stay. But evolution naturally flows in the direction of survival and self preservation so if you stick around the light bulb eventually goes on! If you are a woman going through this crap I highly recommend joining. It helped to get me unstuck and out! Not what I thought I wanted, but thank goodness. I am now truly happily ever after!
Bonnie, I went to the SOS site.. It looks like it is a monthly pay for membership. Is there free access to the forums?
Hi Willow, Yes there is a small fee, but honestly sooooo worth it. I cant speak for Joann, but I would guess that if you have financial hardship she might be willing to work something out with you. I also think that somehow the paid membership protects our privacy–there is a lot of sharing that goes on in the forums. Ultimately Joann knows that these are real people and not someone’s creepy partner or sicko coming in for some perverse jollies. I am no longer a member, since I don’t need it any longer, but totally support what they are doing there. CL is fantastic, and you can get a feeling for the empathy and support in the comments here, but the forums on SOS are very interactive and there is almost always someone logged in that you can talk to–someone who understands. It is great that there are more resources popping up. Best wishes to you!
“no one “recovers” from a personality disorder”….Thank you – exactly what I needed to hear. I agree that the diagnosis of sex-addict should not exist; more fitting would be addictive personality disorder. Again – “no one “recovers” from a personality disorder”. End of story!
Lorna
I think there’s a difference between people who realize they have a tendency to deal with emotional issues via addictive behaviors and those who shift from one addiction to the next rather than dealing with their root FOO issues. I’ve had one major addictive episode in my life (eating disorder) and I decided I didn’t want to live my life moving from one pain numbing behavior set to another. I haven’t had an issue in over a decade now, so getting real with myself worked. Maybe not so much for other people.
Sex addiction may be real. But most truly addicted people usually blow up their entire lives looking for their release. They can’t just bury their activities under a rock and do the fun stuff when nobody’s watching. Most heroin junkies have no jobs, homes or Leave it to Beaver family life.
Sex addiction is only real to me if the addict has literally thrown everything away to pursue their high. Living comfortably and not blowing finances, jobs , respect etc to smithereens bespeaks too much control to be truly addicted.
I’ve worked in health care with people who have hit rock bottom with addiction. Not a single one had a semblance of normal life because of their illness.
Most of these so-called sex addicts have not lost their self-respect. Their addiction has not unravelled every thread of their existence. Therefore not really addicted are they?
Not all addicts hit rock bottom. Many are “functional” addicts, why? Because chumps are there to support them. Also people with wealth can usually afford their habits… for awhile anyway.
Also, plenty of addicts hit “rock bottom”, get clean, and then go on to reoffend. Sad, but nothing you should saddle your life with.
I also think so many never hit “rock bottom” because their view of what that is differs from, say, mine….
They like what they’re doing and they enjoy the feeling it gives them.
I really naively thought my STBX would realize his mistake and hit rock bottom upon losing his wife & child, his home, his enabler, his best friend, his dog, his creature comforts, his money….but nope, that didn’t do it. He claims to be in the best place he’s been in years and thinking very clearly all while experiencing a total loss of above stated and being harassed non stop by debt collectors.
I guess my version of rock bottom is much different than his.
I agree with that! From what I know of X’s life now it would definitely serve as my rock bottom! No job, living with friends, bad car, starting to see kids less and less, mountain of debt, versus the nice life we had before: spouse, family, steady jobs, decent car, small but nice house, little debt. But he seems fine. Life’s great.
Isn’t it crazy to think, Kira? If lose my mind if debt was crushing me and I’d given the middle finger to just about every positive thing that came into my life for the past 7 years. He have a big F U to his marriage, his child, college and everuthing we had worked so hard for.
No biggie, though. I’ve learned that I manage it all much more easily & efficiently without him.
Again… DITTO!! Mine was already at rock bottom when I met him, let the bank take his house 2 days after we got engaged and ONE day before I found out I was pregnant. Talk about a what the fuck moment??? I have BEGGED him since the first year to get his taxes straightened out, he was already behind…. here we are EIGHT years later….. hasn’t done SHIT. Thank GOD we never married!!! He is staying at his Mother’s, not paying the bills here… so when I move out at the end of the school year I can’t IMAGINE our landlord allowing him to stay and there is no WAY he could get an apartment with no proof of income and such fucked up credit. And he just continues to pretend that everything is JUST great!! But hey… whatever works… since the first week of November he has been to Miami, then back down to Tampa…. and most recently (as I said) Columbus. The rent is 2 months behind and they sent a disconnect notice on the electric…. but Mr. Wonderful is living large and behaves as though he has everything under control and of COURSE he is the “nice guy”. I should probably start figuring out how I am going to explain to my son that his father is in prison. Stupid asshole. Hopefully I will be cleared by my surgeon tomorrow and can get myself back to work. Past 4 months have been a worse nightmare than the first three.
NC, I hope you can get back to work and regain a sense of normalcy. My routine and doing things for myself make me feel better.
Side note: I just don’t understand the out of town trips….how do they do it?!? I can’t afford a vacation so how the hell can they? Something about that really offends me, lol. I just want to talk to them like they’re a child and say “maybe it’s not the best idea to take that trip right now? You think…? Maybe save up some money? Maybe pay down some bills? Maybe stop being such a jerk-off? Maybe?”.
Nah, who am I kidding, they’ve EARNED that vacation. Being a total parasite must be exhausting.
I guess if you can keep passing the blame to someone else you can keep living with the thought that your terrible conditions are merely temporary.
Once again TBJamie, ours must be brothers, wtf? He hasn’t been keeping up with the bills here (No payment in December & January) and even though he is trying to play catch up…. no check again for rent this week because he just had to go to Columbus over the weekend to the Arnold Classic for yet another “incredible” opportunity.
He was SCREAMING at me the other night telling me I have made it clear that I think he is a “piece of shit”. I have never spoken to him that way…. what I HAVE done is point out that i can’t BELIEVE that at his age he still has NO sense of accountability or consequences.
He spends money like a teenager with their first paycheck…. you DON’T get to take three trips out of town in 3 months and NOT pay your rent, child support and utilities. That is FUCKED up and the fact that HE doesn’t understand this and takes it as a personal attack is insanity. Seriously dude… you are almost 50 and you haven’t figured this out.
NC, yes, the parallels of our exes….yikes. Mine hasn’t made his car payment since December, owes who knows how much in college loans that have gone to a collection agency, owes arrears on child support, has 2 delinquent parking tickets that have gone to a collections agency and total over $200 (and growing by the day) and who knows what else. And get this-he gets his car insurance curtesy OF ME because I’m legally responsible since my name is still on the car loan and I really don’t trust him not to drive that thing off a cliff to reap insurance $. Good Lord, dude, I’m even still handling some of your finances and you can’t get it right.
And yes, he’s planning a vacation with OW’s family AND wants to bring our 2 year old along…for 7 nights…after he just returned her to me last weekend at 11pm on his overnight because “she was sick and inconsolable”. Lol…these creeps are so delusional. Forgo our daughter coming on your inappropriate vacation and for that matter, forgo the vacation and PAY YOUR BILLS!
What a bum.
Oh for crying out loud…. that reminded me…. mine…. currently driving without insurance and has been driving on a suspended license and suspended plates (since July) BECAUSE of a claim that was filed by an adjuster for a “fender bender” he had in a parking lot (in April) while driving WITHOUT insurance. SO friggen full of himself that he was TOO stupid to just pay half of the damages, told the adjuster to kiss his ass because the accident was his clients fault. Wow… showed him!! WTF? And THEN… when he did get pulled over he came home whining about getting pulled over and said “my license is suspended” and OF COURSE they let him go with a warning. Bullshit! I said “ummm yeah… you didn’t know this? so are your plates!! I READ the letter from the state TO you and then I GAVE it to you….. how do you NOT know??” Oh… and for the record…. liability insurance for his vehicle was costing us $49/month last time.
Just CAN’T make this shit up. W.T.F??
Jamie, this is EXACTLY what my ex thinks. He lost all the above, regretted it terribly (the losses, eh, not the behaviour that led to the losses!), and WHILE trying to get me (and therefore the rest of the positive things in his life) back, kept blaming others, mostly me, for everything he’d done and everything that had happened! Man, that is some DEPTH of delusion!
When he saw that wasn’t working anymore (not like after DDay #1, 7 years previously), he shifted the blaming. Now it’s all because he was ‘so angry, and deaf to others’ needs’ – implying FOO issues. (Deaf is an interesting choice of words, since I was crystal clear about my needs, and those of the kids – not GIVING A SHIT about others’ needs would be far closer to reality.) But while he can say that stuff, every time I don’t respond exactly as he would like (‘poor sausage, you’re such a better person now!’), he’s right back to blaming me.
I think that’s my ex’s addiction! I wonder if they have ‘Assholes Anonymous’ groups?
Karen, mine hasn’t even admitted to regretting anything. Not one thing. I guess because he really believes he had to do all these heinous things just to end our marriage. I could’ve dealt with a nice sit down, heart to heart about him wanting to explore other horizons. It still would’ve hurt like hell but I would’ve respected the honesty.
Alas, I’m kinda glad he did it the way he did…now I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that I deserve better.
Not addicted. Just entitled, self-serving, maladjusted opportunists who really don’t care if your life blows up from their refusal to grow up.
Absolutely spot on Wiser! 🙂
From my understanding, too much dopamine leads to pschitzophrenia. Can’t they just give Ex that diagnosis and administer a regular shot of haldol in the buttocks while he is locked in a high security institution?
(I am thinking damage control.)
Save the haldol–just lock them up and let them have at it with each other.
I don’t really want to get into the yes it is/no it isn’t debate. I can talk about specifics though. I met my XH in AA where I thought (because yes, I was a bit naïve) that he just had alcoholism as a problem- which he’d addressed being two years more sober than me. I ignored red flags such as his being very fond of talking to other women in meetings…
We got together, got married. I found out he was into porn and the ‘friendships’ with other women carried on. Then he admitted he was a sex and love addict and started to go to those meetings (SLA), as well as AA. But he just got friendlier with women there. He developed a serious EA which would have progressed had I not read the (very young woman) the riot act. Of course I should have left but being AA and a believer in that recovery programme, I felt bad about not supporting XH with his addictions. Addictions which also included being very bad with money- not earning enough, spending too much. He lost another job we moved. When I found a job and funded his latest business venture, he was stealing money from me to pay for prostitutes. He told me this when he relapsed (alcoholism). I still tried to support him, carried on my own AA programme and was now attending Al- Anon- which tells you to practice ‘detaching with love’. So I clung on without any.
He kept getting drunk, getting involved. He saw a ‘psychosexual counsellor’ who he ran rings around (she was attracted to him, he said) and then came the final OW who ha, ha, had previously worked in the addiction field. When he confessed the affair, he was drunk and told me that the OW was probably part of his sex addiction. I did the pick me dance because I thought he would realise this was a relapse and want to get well. He didn’t. I moved away, divorced him.
So what is my take on it now? In AA we say that it’s a programme for people who want it as opposed to people who need it. The twelve steps work on addressing whatever problem you have if you want to change and are prepared to be honest and do the work. They don’t if you don’t. My XH was as CL describes “A cheater who called himself a “sex addict” with a host of real mental conditions that require years of therapy.” He didn’t want to change – to deal with alcoholism or with his other issues. That’s the focus and not on what the problem is called.
When I found out my XH was visiting (male) prostitutes, watching endless porn, sexting continuously, with secret dating website accounts etc etc, in my chumpiness, I went down the ‘sex addict’ route for 2 years, mostly because this behaviour was so contrary to his alternate persona of family man, business man and strong church going Christian. I couldn’t manage to understand it any other way. He went to two intensive residential treatment programmes, we went to couple counselling for 1 1/2 years, he had his own therapist for just as long. After all of that he still couldn’t stay away from the porn. He then joined sex addicts anonymous with a sponsor he spoke to every week, he then joined their intensive programme where he went to a meeting 3 times a week and spoke to a sponsor once a day. He then went through 3 series of a men’s encounter group looking at Daddy issues. You are getting the picture, the ‘therapy’ never ends. The sexual acting out never ends. ‘Supporting’ him through this was the stupidest thing I have ever done. Don’t go down that route. After 2 years of therapy he blamed me even more and took less responsibility for his behaviour. Addiction or no addiction, do I really want a man who needs this much support to remain faithful – no! Divorcing him was hell on earth but I am now out the other side, my life is now freed up to enjoy and not worry every minute whether my husbands ‘addictions’ are getting the better of him.
Free,
Hugs to you. You are a far better woman than I am. I have personally gone through years of therapy convinced that very thing wrong in my marriage was my fault. I shouldered portion of the blame when my upright Christian husband first confessed to a porn addiction 12 years ago. Accepting his excuses and apologies as I declaring my willingness to do all I could to be a better wife. Yes I began the pick me dance.
But his actions did not change he just played it safe for a while and then he uped the anti. 11 years later and I got the confession I had always dreded porn, affair, multiple random partners. All male. But as a result it was not his fault our marriage ended, but my unwillingness to deal with my anger towards him. To forgive him and pretended like it never happened. Because it was not his fault he acted that way, he was possesed by an unclean sexual spirit that made him do these things, it was not his choice.
Of course my filing for divorce is an insult to him and my previous church and I am the one seen as being without Christian character. They fully support his engaging in a relationship with another woman before he was even divorced. I just see her as his next victim. My divorce is now final and I just today signed papers to proceed with property settlement which due to his lack of integrity will no doubt end up in court. But I am so glad that I am no longer stuck in the orbit of that twisted asshole.
Thankful, I am glad you are finally getting out. Good for you! Jesus cheaters are especially diabolical because they think they have God on their side once they confess and repent and confess and repent and confess and repent – how lucky are they to have such a forgiving God. He told me my issue was that I was just not forgiving enough. My lack of forgiveness was the problem not what he had done. And not being able to pretend like it did not happen, exactly the same.
You are out now and free to live a much better life. Hopefully our faith can withstand this! And I hope you find a better church with Christians who are willing to stand up for what is right.
Hallelujah and hip hip horray!
“And dear God, do you want a partner that needs a monogamy 12-step?”
OK – – Where’s Irish when we need her?
Oh, alright. I’ll stand in for her.
“HELL to the NO. FUCK that SHIT.”
Ah, much better. I really do need to get that tattoo………..
THANK YOU TRACY!!! I’ve been on the “I have an addiction!! Do you understand my SHAME!!! I don’t want to keep doing this! It hurts me more than it hurts you! SCA. (Sexual Compulsives Anonymous) says for you to stay on your side of the road! Work your own recovery from my masturbating night and day to porn! I’ve got to work MY program! ” train for 8 very long and painful years. I shit you not, these words came from his lie hole. And I bought it. I walked on fucking EGGSHELLS. For YEARS! So I would not shame him, or trigger him into porn surfing again. Because the poor sausage could not leave his sausage alone. And that is 50 shades of fucked up I can assure you.
The addiction groups (and I’m not knocking them for drug or alcohol addiction) for sex addicts has every stripe of sicko there is. It gives them a forum to “share” their sicko predilections. My stbx used to say “these meetings are full of guys that are not like me!!! I would never do some of the shit they do. And, hearing their stories triggers me back into porn!” He also had a sponser..oh yeah. This guy. They would have secret conversations. He was the Xes “accountability partner”. WTF. I was not privy to their pain. Or their conversations. Or his “slips”. I was supposed to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!! He was “working it”. Now, THAT I believed. Working at pulling his pud while surfing scads of debasing and sick porn while me and his children slept. Yeah. He was working it alright. The addiction model was really helping us. And me, I just continued to let him lie, gaslight, fuck me over financially, ruin my sexuality and trust. But I stayed on my side of the road, dammit!
Till 18 months ago. Then this old gal jumped the tracks. And I’m now running full tilt away from the crazy. Addicted to porn? Hookers? Ho workers? Hell no you at not. You are just an entitled, fucked up, narc, sociopath.
Nothing to see here folks. Just step away from the assclown.
If any of you find yourself in this “I’m an addict” and “I have no control over my dick” crap. RUN. These sickos never change. And their dick problem is just the tip of their fuckupedness.
Irish, it must be refreshing to just breath!
Irish, you have me laughing out loud tonight. I hope I read your words and your inflections as you intend because the shit cracks me up!!!!!
“Because the poor sausage could not leave his sausage alone. And that is 50 shades of fucked up I can assure you.”
Irish, you are one sassy lady! I love it.
“Just step away from the assclown.” I think we have a new tagline here at Chump Lady. At the least, a new tattoo idea. 🙂
” Lie Hole”……..love it !!!
Tee shirt, please.
SAFTAC for short.
Sounds like we were married to twins! I got the whole “the guys aren’t like me!” speech at the beginning. Now he sees them all as comrades in the same addiction. Before I decided to separate, I told him he had more of a ‘marriage’ with his sponsor than he did with me. Seriously, the dude knows my husband more than I do. This sponsor has his email password (H has to ask for permission to access his own email) and H just recently handed over his bank card to him and has to go over to his house to pick it up if he needs to go shopping. They have secret calls every day and now go to church together. I was also told that I had to just stay on my side of the road! Well fuck you too!
You’re lucky you left before the real crazy started. My H’s life is controlled by his sponsor. It’s sad to see, but it’s no longer my problem.
Thank you for this article! It used to drive me crazy to watch H run around to 4 different 12 step meetings a week. He would say he was doing this so he can get all his addictions (hey, I’ve never seen him drunk, but apparently, he’s an alcoholic too) under control so he can be present for the family. He doesn’t seem to get the irony. He’s away a lot more than he used to be. Or maybe he does see it and thinks it’s a convenient excuse to keep running away from us, while still being able to pretend he’s the good guy who actually wants his family.
I know he was hoping I’d fall in line with these so called ‘therapists’ (most of whom are self proclaimed sex addicts themselves) and start going to 12 step meetings myself. I did for a little while before I snapped out of that insanity. He knows how chumpy I am, so he would subtly try to label me codependent and tell me that I am also sick because I chose to be with him (yes, I asked for this, even though I had no idea what he was doing behind my back).
Isn’t it more likely that codependents would stay with the ‘sex addict’? Why in the world would I stick around and hold his hand through this? Why stay and wait for the next relapse? What kind of madness is that? I barely made it through one round. I’m sure as hell going to protect myself from more of the same. Now I’m relieved when he’s out so much at his meetings and with his sponsor. I’m going to enjoy every minute I get with my kids while they’re still young. When they grow up, I’m sure they’ll see who put in the real time and effort with them.
Co dependency? Right. It’s me honey, with my weak character that ENABLED you to continue your little habit. So sorry. I’ll work on my issues that caused you to masturbate till your sick almost fell off. So, so sorry.
HELL to the NO. FUCK that shit. It isn’t my character it’s your LACK of one that is the problem. These guys have all the warmth of a lizard on a rock, beady eyed, tongue flicking about, searching for…..well you know. STRANGE.
The whole sponser dynamic is creepy. They call each other to “check in”. But if I asked how he was doing, all of a sudden I was “trying to run his RECOVERY!!!!” So, I dutifully steered my stupid ass back over to “my side of the road.” WTF
Note to self: This did not FUCKING WORK.
But Irish, if you had been working ‘your’ program, you would have been far too busy addressing your OWN dysfunction to even notice his. See? It’s still your fault. Double Bind.
I meant dick. But I guess sick and dick could be partner words. LOL
I know, right? ForkinEye, I really tried to own MY part in his addiction. We were addict buddies! I was his co addict wingman! Own it girl! Work your recovery, and pay no attention to the pervert behind the screen!
All I needed recovery from, was entitled asshole overdose.
THAT I’m working on.
Oh yes, and the whole ‘pain shopping’ thing! Seriously! It’s not pain shopping, it’s self-protection! Instead of doing that, LEAVE! You’ll never have to ‘pain shop’ again!
EXACTLY!
“Learning is not a disease”. Bingo.
Sigh. I don’t know, CL—and I know I’m gonna get shit for this…
If it were just about the “fucking around”—not keeping it in their pants–I would agree with you. But it’s not.
You explained it very well—the neurotransmitters are sending pleasure signals to the brain. “Give Me More of THAT!” It doesn’t matter what it is—it could be sex, it could be food, it could be porn, it could be eating clay, it could be pulling out all of your hair. These are compulsions that no one understands. No one can explain trichotillomania (my sister has it). She can’t even explain why it makes her feel better to do what she does…disfigure herself.
Addicts do the same thing with drugs and alcohol (i worked in a rehab some years ago drawing blood)–they will destroy themselves in order to get a fix. They will steal, lie, disfigure themselves, live in horrendous conditions, expose themselves (and others) to disease…
You made the point about “sex addicts” not going through DTs or any physical manifestation—that may be true….but many other addictive behaviors also do not manifest in physical withdrawal symptoms. Food and gambling come to mind.
I’m not saying “sex addiction” gets a blanket pass in my book—but some will destroy everything in their wake in order to get high on the game—the sex, lying, stealing time, and hiding. Gaming can be an addiction–and to some, sexual conquests are a game.
This isn’t bringing sexual infidelity down to the level of a video game—but the brain doesn’t care whether it’s a video game or a lifelong commitment to a partner—all it sees and knows is the high it can get from whatever drug you might flood it with. Infidelity is worse because others are actively harmed–yet….so are the families and spouses of alcoholics and drug addicts.
Addicts lie and steal and cheat and connive and endanger those close to them—-even in the face of serious, life shattering and even life threatening consequences—sound familiar? THEY KNOW what the consequences are, and they do it anyway. This is addictive behavior.
At the end of the day—I agree 100% that it is the spouse’s choice whether to stick with Cheaterpants or not—whether they truly are an addict or whatever it is that they call themselves. Do I believe that ALL cheaters are addicts? NO. But I do believe that some are. Because you can look at the OTHER behaviors in their lives and see that this is their basic mental makeup—thrill seeking, other addictions, irresponsible.
This is definitely a case of “It’s not what the cheater did, it’s your reaction to it.” It’s your choice to cut your losses—because you simply do not want to do the addiction dance with them–just like supporting an alcoholic or a drug addict or a gambling addict…it’s a lifelong struggle with them. Each person has the right to want in their life what they want. If cheating is a deal breaker….doesn’t matter whether it’s an addiction or not—the deal is broken.
The rub here is figuring out who is truly an addict—-and who is simply angling to maintain cake. That, to me, is untangling the skein of fuckupedness.
My cheater had it all–food first. Try and work on that. He replaced it with smoking. Tried to work on that. Relapse into food. Try to get a handle on both. Then it was porn. Then it was exercise. Then it was the Atkins Diet. Then it was video games. The therapist said, “He has an addictive personality, which he not only does not admit to having–I see no willingness in him to do any of the work to modify the behavior.”
Bingo. Done. No willingness to modify this? Now you’re not my problem anymore.
So what should it be called…simple entitlement? Or an addictive personality–which is one of the hallmarks of…..NPD. If you find one, you usually find the other.
I remember one day that X and I were joking around that if he was ever just so horny that he had to call me at work so I could come home and we could have some fun….then do it! (haha hehe wouldn’t it be funny to act like hormonal teenagers again!) Well, one day, he calls me at work and says, “I’ve been thinking about you all morning and I’ve had this erection for an hour. Can you come home?” I said…”Uh…I’m at work, sweetheart. I can’t leave right this very minute. Can we do this tonight?”
He was fuming. “What am I supposed to do with this erection now?!!” I chuckled a little and said, “Honey, it’s not life threatening–can’t you wait until I get home?” He was angrier still–“I’M SERIOUS!! What do you want me to do NOW?!!!” I was so taken aback, I was starting to get offended. Really? You can’t take care of this horrific erection by yourself, you have to have me there, RIGHT NOW?
I paid for that. For week he withheld sex and affection…storming around in a silent rage. In his mind, I had promised him a drug—the high of acting like naughty teenagers—and I reneged. I yanked that fantasy out of his head and stomped on it. He never forgot it, either. He would throw my “lack of spontaneity” in my face (with that as an example) at every opportunity.
My husband falls into this category. We can’t fantesize about something (e.g a threesome) without him pushing for is to do it in real life. We’re not taking about a civil discussion here. He gets upset because I “raised false expectations”. He somehow ties the level to which I accept him to with having my sexuality become a mirror image of his. No boundaries allowed and I could never suggest something that made him uncomfortable (a MMF threesome, for example and if I were actually interested which I’m not…) without him judging me. Our sex life is actually ver active and relatively varied but, to hear him tell it, he hardly gets any. That and he “never sees me” because I work a 40 hour schedule. I’m just not around to meet his sexual needs 24/7 and he acts like I should feel bad about it.
You made me realize, it’s all because he needs his hit. A different perspective
KT – respectfully, he doesn’t NEED it – he feels ENTITLED to it. That’s another different perspective. He needs food, water, warmth and shelter – everything else in this life is a bonus and not a god given a right (and even the first needs aren’t entirely God given – or we wouldn’t have people dying for lack of these things).
You’re right and I feel the same way about needs and entitlement. I suppose I always wonder if I’m the crazy one, if everyone else is like him and I’m missing out. Something tells me that the threesome wouldn’t make him happy and it would continue to escalate from there. That’s why I can’t really entertain any idea of having a threesome because I don’t want to enable him. I know it wouldnt be about us doing something fun, it would be him feeding his compulsion. Not sexy and misses the point of a sexual relationship entirely.
I went out with this professor a few times, the last time on New Year’s Eve. He told me his New Year’s resolution was to have a threesome. We’re your grandparents age. For gawd’s sake. That’s whats out there girls. And that’s why I’m still single. I’m not kidding. Some of these guys make my cheating, lying. POS, XH look good some times. Ain’t that something?
Thanks for the warning, Syringa. Precisely why I got two more dogs after cheater left. They’re much better company, and loyal.
“but some will destroy everything in their wake in order to get high on the game” — THIS.
Whatever their high, they’re choosing it over a healthy relationship with you. Whether that’s a video game, sex with a stranger, or drugs. Whatever the cause of that self-destructiveness — which will be taken out on YOU — get away from it. I really don’t care what people call it.
Exactly stbx chose work, alcohol and the howorker over out marriage and children. Time to gtfo!
CL has identified the exact problem — chumps want to believe that things can be fixed, and that somehow their love can be part of the fix. The SA partner can use this “disease” to manipulate a chump “you vowed thru sickness and health, and I’m sick. I want to get better, I am just powerless against my addiction.” A counselor once pointed out that if your “partner” is “stressed”, or mad at you for some infraction, or just has a few extra minutes in that schedule, he/she can make it all better by having a little sex with someone new. It can even be online sex with porno. That will give the “addict” brain a shot of dopamine, and will make them feel so much better! Also, it teaches you a lesson, for not satisfying their every whim. You must be a bad chump, because you didn’t keep your “partner” happy all the time. — What incredible BS!!!
I don’t remember anything in the vows about putting up with the risks the “addict” exposes you to. Nothing kills desire like the thought that your partner has been with someone else, or has shared a needle with someone else, or has done some other life threatening activity with someone else. The fact that they take the risk with their own lives is bad enough — with Aids and Herpes and all the STD’s out there, why would anyone who was sane do this? But, it is also ok to bring this risk home to you, the chump??? Oh, yes, finding “twu luv” — the victimless crime.
I actually heard a woman I worked with say, “if he had cancer, I wouldn’t leave. How is a mental illness different?” This woman tried to “treat” her SA sweetheart by indulging his porn fetish. She dressed up in disgusting outfits and posed with all manner of sex toys and was the “star” of video’s he made, sent him sexts upon demand. She was trying to be the focus of all his desire. She didn’t realize he would get bored with her parts and want to see other women’s parts, and more graphic porn, and that he would use her pictures to post on adult porn sites as the price of admission to the site. She didn’t think about those pictures getting back to her children. But they did. One of his fellow addict’s had a wife who recognized her, and who did not appreciate that her addict was looking at another addict’s wife’s pictures. So she sent them to the woman’s family. So much for treating the illness, and helping your SA get better. Talk about being CHUMPED!
Some people may feel that nude and sexually explicit pictures and movies may be just good clean fun — and the risk they choose to take with that attitude is up to them. If they are not adults, however, (Think Teenagers) and this material is distributed, they can be labeled sex offenders. This is in addition to the humiliation of having everyone at the high school see this type of picture. If we are too tolerant of this stuff, I shudder to think about what problems future generations will have to face.
All partners need to think about what activity their partner is requesting from them — and who have they participated with before — and ask themselves if it really is just being “sexy” or is it a red flag warning of a more serious problem. I personally would recommend that you never do something you do not want to do, just because the partner suggests that if you don’t, someone else will be happy to. Let someone else be happy. Don’t do something you think will be “private”. Privacy is dead.
I think a 5% cure rate is being overly generous, but that is just my opinion. I think Chumps need to think long and hard about this aspect of the disorder/disease, whatever the spouse wants to call it. Is anything worth this risk? What if something happens to you, who will raise your children? What type of influence will they have then? Would you want your children, your siblings, your close friends to put up with this type of behavior? If not, why should you?
Portia and CJ,
Wonderful posts. If I had only known these things at the start of this hell on earth. Both of you put it all into perspective. Had I known, I would have left immediately. But the sickness and health vow, and his claiming to need my help, for something he was never going to actually try to fix, kept me stuck. Mired down. Feelings of loyalty and responsibility to him and my family haunted me whenever I wanted out. It took finally seeing the futility of it all that finally motivated me to get moving.
Anyone in this situation, read those two posts. Really read them. That is reality with one of these disordered people.
Thanks Portia and CJ.
Irish –
You are one strong women. I know you will make a good life for you and your children. You have the resolve and a great command of four letter words.
Portia, thanks for sharing the story of what happened to your friend who was trying to satisfy her SA mate. What a horrible thing to have happen to somebody who was just trying to please her mate. In my own family one of my relatives was married to an SA and at the point he started trying to convince her that swinging would fix their marriage she finally decided she’d had enough. I think you’re right in that whatever you do to try to “satisfy” addicts is just going to suck you further down to your own personal hell. It’s so sad how relationships can ruin your self esteem like this. How does it happen that so many of us get to the point that we’ll do anything to make them stay?
OK. Read up on this like crazy after DD. Did not EVEN KNOW it existed accept for child molesters.
From what I have read, sex addiction is not “cured”, it’s managed. Maybe that’s the 5%. So for the rest of your life with your SA, a relapse is possible and probable. If you want to live with that the rest of your life, be my guest. I don’t.
Relieves A N X I E T Y. Main reason for drug, food, gambling, alcohol, sexual addictions. They found an unhealthy way to relieve anxiety.
Feel anxious? Press the button, all better. Pavlov’s Dog.
The game? Lie, cheat and steal, destroy families, jobs, finances, physical health (yours, too) and relationships to get to the high to relieve the anxiety.
Why do they stay with us, stable chumps? Why not just move on?
We provide them with their desperate need for love, home and hearth even if they don’t know why.
It’s a horrible life. There is NO LOVE in the “sex game” world. IT DOES NOT EXIST. It is so void of humanity, that to stay in that world is to lose your soul. It is completely false and when done with the “act” the void returns. A bunch of empty humans running around getting their rocks off because nothing else in their life makes them feel good about themselves. NOT OUR PROBLEM but they would be happy to make it OUR PROBLEM so they don’t have to feel “bad” about themselves.
They have angry dicks/vaginas. They are not loving dicks/vaginas. Angry at you, the world, their mortality, pick one.
All I know is that it is CHEATING on your partner/spouse. Period. End of story. Their high was more important then YOU, YOUR HEALTH, THEIR CHILDREN, THEIR FAMILY. Let THEM figure out the WHY.
It may be due to childhood abuse. It typically is. It is still something they have to work on, NOT YOU.
You really do not want to go into this world. Next to witnessing the atrocities of war, it is the most pathetic human endeavor man/woman can achieve.
The complete destruction of the human soul.
Excellently put, CJ.
I have to add. With God, anything is possible. That is the ONLY exception I have to recovery.
Great post, CJ.
Careful discernment is needed with today’s topic for chumps…
I’m with Chump Lady. Sex Addiction sounds like crap to me. But the real issue is whether you should deal with it, real or not.
My answer is NO. This will sound harsh, but I would never recommend anyone to get into a relationship with any addicted person. Even those in recovery are one drink, pill, puff, whatever, from total relapse.
As you may guess, I have experience in this area. My first husband was an alcoholic. I met him after my freshman year in college and was with him till his death when I was forty years old. He was sober the first two years we were together. Then he started partying with a friend one day, and like they say The Rest is History. I could fill volumes with the broken promises, lies, mistreatment, and just plain misery this led to in my life. All I can really say is please don’t take on another person’s problem. I just thank God daily that this guy did not manage to destroy me along with himself. Although it was a very CLOSE call.
A thousand times this. A couple of anecdotes (I just heard a great expression: those aren’t anecdotes, it’s small batch artisanal data. But I digress…)
Briefly pre-divorce and whatever, Crapweasel tried a therapist who recommended him to attend Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous (I think so that said shrink did less work. Then, they meditated.)
(1) even crapweasel thought it was bullshit, to his credit.
But (2) the big takeaway I got was that most of the people at the meetings spent time telling each other “they weren’t bad people, they just did bad things.”
I asked him what the difference was–how bad did you have to get: “Pol Pot “bad? “Random shoot people in a bank” bad?
He said my philosophical nuance would go over their heads….
Secondly, I myself went briefly to a therapist who specialized in people traumatized by the sexual acting-out of partners…a believer in the SA model, but a decent human anyway. It was a bad fit, and I left soon, but she did reinforce me a lot, but saying things like, “If his mouth is moving, he’s lying” and other similar. So, that part was very helpful. She seemed to both believe in the SA model, and to Trust That They Suck. Interesting.
But yeah, nice little cottage industry they got there.
There’s the mindfuck. **Trust that they Suck, but stick it out with them. Because you are sick, too. And if you leave, you’ll just go find another. So, hang round and continue to pay into the Sex-Addiction-Recovery-Industrial-Complex, because if we lose you, the Chump, we lose the addict’s therapy dollars, too.** (Apparently, sex addiction counseling and 12 step recovery are not as much fun without the Chump to triangulate with. Nobody else to blame when the chump leaves.)
Ooooh, ‘small batch artisanal data’, I LIKE that! I think the data here is small-batch, organic, free-range artisanal data! Only the best from CN!
I watched an interview with Rob Lowe where he said he doesn’t think it should be called “Sex Addiction” but an intimacy disorder…
One Year D-Day today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really glad I am going through this journey then still being miserable and shut down with um…. whats his name 🙂
I think this is right on. It is an intimacy disorder.
They are incapable of a loving sexual encounter. Their sexual encounter must have the element of danger or being illicit.
I also think it’s not only an intimacy disorder but a “maturity disorder.” I believe that many addictions stem from lack of maturity and discipline needed to endure any amount of boredom, discomfort, loneliness, or – God forbid – just plain ordinary moments when nothing stimulating is happening. This is an ongoing pattern of thought and behavior that gets entrenched – NOT a disease. Reminds me of this quote: “All of humanity’s problems stem from man’s inability to sit quietly in a room alone.” – Blaise Pascal.
Yes. So true. And I love the quote!
Intimacy takes work, consideration. Sex is easy, mechanical.
Yes, yes and double yes.
The serial cheater is never having sex “with” someone else. They don’t have intimacy with the “new” partner. Love is a concept to ponder, not something they understand. Don’t have jealous thoughts that the “new” person has something you don’t have–something cheaters would like to have you believe.
The cheaters are are screwing themselves in that person. That person is just another body. Another means to their “happy” ending in their f’up psyche.
I think preferring meaningless sex is a sexual disorder. It seems to me the lack of intimacy is a result of the preferences, not the cause of it.
Yep. Right on.
I agree with the others who have said that people who do these things are sick, but I am not sure “sex addiction” is the right term. More likely people who engage in risky and destructive behavior have other disorders. Some of them stemming from the fuckupedness of their childhoods. And some of them are just narcissistic jerks that aren’t going to change no matter what- some come from perfectly nice families.
The question is valid though.. while you wouldn’t leave a spouse if they got cancer, for example.. a sickness that they can’t control, would you leave them for a mental illness? Some mental illnesses are highly treatable and manageable, and all of us have issues… so no.. just a mental illness isn’t enough for a divorce.
But using “addiction” to cover up bad choices and repeated destructive behavior is not the same thing. I agree that society keeps wanting to make excuses for people, explain away really bad behavior as some sort of “illness” when really it’s just assholes doing what assholes do. Screw with people and lack empathy and love towards others. Repeatedly hurt the ones they report to love over and over. Yes, they could have an underlying “reason” for that.. but chumps have to realize it’s about THEM. If the affected person wishes to help themselves, and does the work to do so, that’s one thing.. but if they refuse to take responsibility and want to blame shift, that is another thing. In the end if you are dealing with such a person, you have to think of yourself. Can you withstand a life where you are disappointed over and over? If you have children, what about their welfare? It’s fair to say no and walk away. You aren’t responsible for other people’s choices.
Most of us would not think about leaving a person with an illness like cancer. But with mental illness or addiction there can be a limit. Somebody with severe untreated or untreatable mental illness or addictions can be a danger to themselves or others physically, emotionally and financially. In these extreme cases it is best to detach and ultimately leave the other person.
I had a neighbour whose husband was severely head and spine injured after a car wreck (no impulse control, wheelchair bound, the mental age of a five year old). He would throw things and swear constantly if he did not get his way reference food, TV, etc. He was not the same person she had married in any sense. His parents could not understand why she had asked for their advice on finding a long term care facility to place him in. She was supposed to take care of him til death they figured. She had their infant child and this poor man with major health and behaviour issues in the house at the same time and was literally exhausted taking care of them. She went away for one weekend with her son to visit her parents and left MIL and FIL alone with their brain injured son. They were looking for care homes with her as soon as she got back. Sad ending but the man was placed in a good home with the monies from his insurance and she got to live a normal life.
In another lifetime, I was a welfare caseworker. I had one client with 3 kids whose life was devastated when her teenage son was brain-injured when hit by a car. Her second husband (not the father of the kids, who was either deceased or MIA) couldn’t handle the kid’s violent outbursts and left. She couldn’t get a job because no one could control the injured kid. The younger children were babysitting and mowing lawns to support the family. The first and most important issue for this family (aside from getting the heat and lights turned on) was to find a placement for this poor boy, so he could get the care he needed, while the legal fight over insurance raged on. The mother surely did not want to put this children in a care home, but the whole family would have sunk under the waves had the situation gone any further. I will never forget her or those 2 younger kids. I often wonder how it all turned out. But even with children, people often have to put aside their powerful attachment to the idea we have of “how to love someone” and make the difficult choice to save what can be saved and to love that person by making sure he has the help he needs.
For chumps who are parents, it’s important to understand that EVEN IF THERE ARE SEX ADDICTS (and I am a skeptic on this), it is not “helping” the addict to keep cake piled up all around them. While the TV show “Celebrity Rehab” has its serious critics, I found it profoundly illuminating about the damage that addiction does to families and how addiction destroys the addict’s ability to love and care for other people. My XH is an alcoholic who will also use other substances to self-medicate. In my chummy, co-dependent way, I figured I could deal with all that and make a life. Ten years later, I finally understood that putting up with the shit sandwich of substance abuse also erodes the substance abuser’s respect for the sober partner. Until I drew the line and said it was over, his contempt for me and anger toward me was the dominate emotion in our home. I didn’t abandon him. I helped him settle into a new home; I keep in touch; I never forget birthdays or Christmas. (That, too, is a one-way street, but that is also the difference between him and me.) If we define “addict” as a person who uses substances and behaviors to self-medicate, avoid feeling and responsibility, and manipulate people and situations, then why would anyone stay with an addict? Let the poor person go and hit bottom. Then, with a year or two of sober living under his or her belt, maybe a relationship can be salvaged. I suppose that’s why I would advise any chump to separate as soon as the ducks can be put in a row (and al the while going full stealth mode on the duck aligning). If a partner has an addiction or a character disorder or is just plain mean and abusive, get out. Get out as soon as possible. Then chumps have three precious things: an opportunity to build a healthy home and a full life–to gain a life; time to learn how to maintain boundaries and fix the picker; and some space and perspective to gauge whether the addict/cheater/character-disordered hyenas will turn their lives around without risking life, health, and the family economic situation.
// ,
“I helped him settle into a new home; I keep in touch; I never forget birthdays or Christmas. (That, too, is a one-way street, but that is also the difference between him and me.)”
I, too, do not forget the birthdays, because I promised. I, too, am stuck in a one way street, and wondering why I made that foolish promise.
Why dost never forget birthday anniversaries or Christmas?
I am very skeptical about loosely labeling any sort of compulsive behavior an addiction. If the label provides a crutch rather than a solution then it is nonsense. Even if sex addiction was real, managing it would take consistent, earnest, humbling commitment and effort, right? These behaviors don’t work well for cheaters.
If your spouse is dragging you along this tough road, addiction or not, it is up to you, dear chump, to be in the driver’s seat and decide where the tolerable line is for you. You may have to look through a lot of smoke and mirrors to find it.
Oh, and I forgot…I went to ONE meeting of the SA partner group. Holy Crap! Bunch of people I just felt really sorry for (I had already begun imbibing at the Fountain of ChumpLady Wisdom, so…)
Women just living these guys (and in this case it was all women, about 20 of them), and they guys were way on on the hookers & blow end of the cheater spectrum. It was just awful.
And the group encouraged them to stay in those horrific situation, putting themselves and their kids at risk, and “work their steps”. Like they had done anything, anything at all in the world that required them to “work steps.” I thought my head would explode. But, I didn’t even yell, I just explained my sitch, and said my self-respect meant that I would not put up with crapweasel’s behavior, and I was working on finding a way out to a new life of freedom. Modeling better behavior for them, but they had seriously drunk Koolaid.
It was a sorry, sorry spectacle. Very sad.
Yeah, I too went to one of these groups- and I felt the same. I have to say I felt the same in Al-anon. I’m one of those who got described as a ‘double-winner’ as I ‘qualified’ for both AA and Al-anon- due to alcoholic spouse (and parent!) and my own recovery. It’s not a term I like- it refers to the fact that you have a ‘solution’ for both your own problem and dealing with someone else’s. But when you are experiencing the effects of someone else’s addiction it doesn’t feel like you’ve won anything.
Although I’m AA- nearly 10 years- my cheater experience has made me hard line on recovery- of all kinds- and relationships.
If you’re the one in recovery- you should be focusing on your own wellbeing and very often that means not being in relationships. Newcomers are advised to not get involved for at least a year- preferably longer. Often relationships need to be let go in an honest, direct way.
If you’re the one in a relationship with someone who’s in recovery- as I was, then unless they are really committed to wellness, you need to disengage. There is NOTHING you can do to help someone do their own recovery- and the road can be hard. And the consequences of staying,especially with relapse, can be severe- I didn’t lose my own sobriety but my sanity? Nearly.
I’m in the camp of not really believing in sex addiction. I blame this entitled, selfish, and juvenile behavior on how easy it is to watch porn and hook up with strangers these days.
The porn always has to get more hardcore for the same level of excitement. It’s not hard to segue into real life sexual encounters.
It’s easy, also, to claim that it’s mostly men who behave this way, but they are fucking someone else and it’s usually a female.
The bottom line for me is that this behavior is the behavior of someone who is entitled, selfish, and juvenile. It’s hard for me to imagine these men and women lying on their deathbed years from now saying, “I only wish I had had more sex with strangers.”
Giggling at the vision of my cheater on his deathbed, rasping ‘Just one more…vagina picture…on XHamster…(wheeze)”
ROFL 😀
You may find me, on my death bed, saying, “I wish I’d had more sex with strangers instead of my X.”
LOL Tempest! Okay, okay, some of you might be saying that on your deathbeds.
I think I can see myself wishing I had had more sex with strangers.
Me too Tempest! I’m going to start working on that as soon as the divorce is final.
HA HA HA HA. Oh, Tempest. You really crack me up! HA HA HA
Off to work, I better go. HA HA HA
t’s hard for me to imagine these men and women lying on their deathbed years from now saying, “I only wish I had had more sex with strangers.”
No, they will be lying on their deathbed, crying, wondering about why they wasted their life on this planet chasing an “O”.
Oh, I can imagine them lying on their deathbeds whining that they’re dying and it’s someone else’s fault. While mentally reviewing all of their marvelous exploits.
LovedaJackass got it right. These disordered types will NOT be feeling regret on their death beds, they will be blaming someone else and saying how great they are and they do not deserve to die, right up until their last miserable breath.
One of ‘The Great I Am’s excuses was that he didn’t get laid until he was in his mid-twenties and he felt he had to ‘catch up’. He definitely gave me the impression that he was trying to make sure he had enough ‘bedpost notches’ before he dies. Fair enough – if that’s what floats your boat – but really, is it more important to have fucked with lots of people than to die with your honorable word? Someone says here it’s an ‘intimacy disorder’ – and I definitely agree with that. Maybe ‘The Great I Am’ will die happy knowing he has spent the vast majority of his adult life being a fraud – can’t say it’s an ambition I’d like to have!
I know there are behavioural addictions, such as eating disorders, gambling, shopping, pulling out your own hair …. And it’s not hard to believe that porn use, especially, could become compulsive, in the same way.By far the VAST majority who develop problems with these behaviours manage to get them under control on their own. And when they can’t, there are fairly effective treatments, based in what we know about behaviour change, cognitive approaches, and accountability for the consequences of their choices.
BUT, from there to the whole SAA approach is a big stretch! I watched a friend go through this with her already selfish and entitled husband, and the groups, books and therapists totally encouraged him to focus even more on himself, while his wife and kids were going under for the third time. So that HE could have his 3 months of sobriety, SHE was condemned to 3 months (infinitely extended by ‘slips’) of no physical intimacy w/her husband, at a time when she needed that to feel better about herself and the relationship. So that HE could feel like a ‘good person who made bad choices’, SHE was encouraged to not ‘shame’ him by pointing out the consequences of his behaviour. So HE wouldn’t be triggered, she was supposed to supportively accept his orgies of self-blame and self-pity, while he continued to ignore her emotional needs.
BLERGH!!!
Whether SA exists or not, this approach is NOT helpful to ANYBODY involved in the mess. And I hate that it gives false hope to Chumps, who are desperate to keep hoping. Do they divulge that tiny success rate at the BEGINNING of this process?
In the end, it has to come down to; can I live like this, or not? NOW, the way it is NOW. There should be a standard cut-off date to how long people are allowed to ‘struggle’ with any behaviour that harms others. Then they get kicked out the door. Better yet, kick them out now, get a new life, and let them come back to try to reconcile once they’re ALL bettter. I’m betting that by that point, most Chumps will have realized it isn’t worth their time.
There may be such a think as sex addiction. As with all other addictions, the person has enough character to WANT to get better. Those without character continue on without regard for anyone but themselves. Forever and ever. Better to find prettier pastures elsewhere.
I think in some of these relationships (mine included), the destruction gets to be so bad that it’s just better to get away from each other. There comes a point where you just have to save yourself.
I’m addicted to authentic relationships. How dare you shame me for my need to be respected. Hey you SA – yes you! You’re co-dependant and that makes you just as responsible for what happens when you marry a Truth Addict. Get with the program will you!
“I’m addicted to authentic relationships.”
LOL. Thought it occurs to me that this is the next logical step for the RIC to take. Books and therapies and expensive weekend retreats where Chumps learn to overcome their pathological addictions to honesty, monogamy, reliability, and integrity. Because, you know, the shortcomings of us Chumps in these areas are completely unnatural and make it so much more difficult for “suffering” cheater-spouses to “heal.”
Yes, it’s a trait of the Obsessive Compulsive Personality (ocpd), dontcha know . . “inflexible about matters of morals, ethics and values . . . ”
It’s not cheating that’s a problem, it’s our inflexibility about it, due to our personality issues. 😀 I’m powerless. Only God can remove this defect of my character.
My cheating ex-wife actually accused me of having OCPD as part of the whole gas-lighting process. She printed out sheaves of paper from the internet that “proved” I have this “illness.” Part of what made her so distant, she said. My always checking on things and looking for reassurance and consensus. I drove her away from her, don’t you see? And couldn’t I just please stop?
Strange that no one else saw my “illness,” including the half dozen shrinks I saw in marriage counseling and individual therapy. And yet . . . I believed her. I apologized and made countless resolutions to “improve.” [shiver]
In hindsight I suppose her being distant and wanting more autonomy might have had something to do with the several affairs she was carrying on in her secret other life.
Herein lies the difference between cheaters and chumps. A cheater will say ‘your insecurity is driving me away’. A chump will say ‘you are feeling insecure? How can I make you feel safer’? My first husband (the passive aggressive) had a talent for leaving dirty teaspoons in my newly cleaned kitchen sink within about 30 seconds of me lovingly cleaning and buffing it off. No big deal you would think, but how hard is it to take on board that the way to not make me pissed off would be to just rinse that teaspoon and put it in the drainer (hell, you wouldn’t even have to go the full hog and dry and put it away) – but, no – apparently noticing how sparkly clean everything surrounding the kitchen sink is, and being told ‘I’ve just cleaned that sink, could you not just rinse the teaspoon’ are way too much for some brains to process! (BTW – the lack of rinsed teaspoons wasn’t the reason for the break down of my first marriage, but as a tiny example of an ongoing attitude it might as well have been)!
🙂 …. ‘Hello, my name is Jayne and I’m a Truthaholic, I’ve been a Truthaholic all my life and I blame it on my FOO’.
Hello my name is Maree … what Jayne has posted. 🙂
This reminds me of an email I saw from STBX to OW. OW was complaining, as is typical, that STBX was spending too much time with me (this was before I filed, so the affair was “secret”). She was urging him to break with me and commit to her. His response? He took a picture of the family Bible, and made some reference to his father, who had a long-term mistress, following up with the rather sad comment that men in his family are doomed to love two women.
WTF?
Anyway, he’s never pleaded sex addiction. Apparently he’d like to think he’s a bigamist, not a cheater. Oh, and this is genetic.
That said, I can get the “I want X” desire that a cheater might have. I lost a lot of weight by controlling what I ate, and am keeping it off by watching what I eat. It was and is tough to say no to things that you want, that you like, but that you know that you do NOT need because ultimately they are bad for you.
The difference is that with food, I can balance things out. Going out to eat with friends? It’s fine to have cheesecake for dessert. I can be good for a few days afterwards to even things out.
I can’t see how to balance out fucking several people and still staying married to a person I’ve promised to be faithful to. It’s not like monogamy is a 5 lb spread on the scale: okay to screw around on Saturday night as long as you’re faithful Sunday through Friday.
If it’s really that hard to commit to monogamy, then get a divorce and stay single. Or find people who are okay with polyamory (but remember that they also value honesty within the shifting sands of those relationships).
More deception, more danger, more dopamine. Cheaterthink.
Where is Gary Larson when you need him…
Feeding chicken giblets to the piranha.
On one side of my family there were three generations of men (that I know of) who have long term wives and long term girlfriends. Sometimes it does seem to “run in the family.”
What “run’s in the family” is the acceptance of this behavior which is learned by example. It’s not a genetic condition.
Just wanted to chime in with a plug for SOS–that site was a life saver for me! There is lots of dialog and comradery between women going through similar situations. Of course almost every newcomer (including me) goes there looking for hope/answers and thinking they are the exception rather than the rule. For some women the dose of reality provided by the stories and ongoing drama that is shared is too “negative”. What is so funny is that no one goes there because they hate their partners and want out–everyone goes there to find a way to stay. But evolution naturally flows in the direction of survival and self preservation so if you stick around the light bulb eventually goes on! If you are a woman going through this crap I highly recommend joining. It helped to get me unstuck and out! Not what I thought I wanted, but thank goodness. I am now truly happily ever after!
On behalf of SOS, thank you for that nice plug Bonnie! There are a lot of us who are members of both communities – chump nation and SOS. If you are curious, our founder JoAnn Russell has recently revamped the home page to include some great information. Feel free to check it out. Tracy, in the private, members only part of SOS we are having a “Chump Lady rocks” festival after today’s post. Thank you so much.
I have never heard of SOS- wish like I’d known about it years back! (Bit like CL, sigh) Thankfully I don’t need it now but it’s good that it’s there for others.
Actually, scrub that comment that I don’t need SOS now. I ‘ve just watched JoAnn’s Story (one of the videos) and I’ve found it really useful in reviewing what happened to me. She makes reference herself to the ongoing nature of healing- even after the drama is over. Much like here I guess….
Let’s just say “sexual addiction” is real. Then it follows these people are INCAPABLE of monogamy. Perhaps, then they ought not to be married? Or not be married until they demonstrate they are “healed”?
We do not think it is okay to put accountants in charge of large sums of money if they are addicted to gambling with other people’s money. They are not left in such positions. The gambling addiction may be very real. That still does not mean we leave them in a place where they can do more damage. The physical, emotional, financial, social, and spiritual well-being of a spouse is worth more–in my opinion–than mere money. Makes sense to me that we do not put back the person in a position to squander those things again. It’s not good for them OR for the chump/family.
But then I think logically like that…..
DM, excellent point!!! Even if it is a real addiction, remove the addict from the place where they could continue to do harm – the marriage and the family.
The majority of “sex addicts” do not see their behavior as a problem and don’t seek help for it until they get busted by their partner. In the meantime, they withdraw more and more, emotionally and physically, until the partner begins asking questions. At that point they start picking fights, gaslighting, and blame shifting in order to get the spotlight off themselves so they can continue their fraud. And that fraud includes misappropriating funds. I know women who’ve discovered that their children’s’ college savings have been spent on prostitutes.
As CL says about cheaters in general, these guys are good at picking honest, well-intentioned partners who can hold down the home front and reflect well on them. They hide behind their partners, who help them present to the world as upright citizens and good family men/women. It helps them with their careers and it helps them socially. They can indulge in their seedy underworld and still come home to a loving family. They surf porn at work, sext in the car, meet strangers off Craigslist on their lunch break, then come home and coach their kids’ softball teams.
It is an insidious form of abuse, a form of domestic violence. So, yes, there’s a whole industry out there devoted to helping these folks “recover,” and that recovery traditionally happens on the backs of their partners.
Therapists don’t routinely encourage women to stay with batterers, so why is it they tell partners of “SA’s” to stick around, knowing the “prognosis” is grim and that relapse is expected. They encourage her, really, to risk her life and her emotional health. Why? Because, as I’ve said before, “SA’s” don’t stay in treatment unless there’s a partner to fool.
This is exactly what my STBX did. I was his “respectable” beard. I just didn’t know. I walk around dazed because I just can. not. believe. the depths of both his depravity and entitlement. Who is this person? When there is so much real pain in life, why would someone who “everybody thinks is amazing” choose to create this shitstorm for himself and me and our family? I have been a chump and I didn’t even know that was possible.
Taniarochelle:
Exactly!! Why are we encouraged to stick it out, given the dismal and probably erroneous recovery rate?? It is emotional abuse. Plain and simple. And we stay, try to fix the unfixable and feel failure when it never works. I do not know of any success stories with “recovering” sex addicts. Maybe there are some, but I’ve never seen it.
I think they want to do what they do. And to hell with you and the family. I went through 8 years of his false “recovery”. If you can even call it that. He had no intention of stopping. He just got better at hiding.
My stbx’s therapist told me that he doesn’t’ believe in “sexual addiction.” He’s been seeing him 2x per week for 2 years, and still I find porn and hook-up websites in his browser. My new therapist met with him for about 15 minutes at one of my sessions, and told me that she suspected some sort of personality disorder, and that IF he did get “better” it would be a long time, and a lot of work. I’m so done! I’ve come to the conclusion that if he wanted to change, he would have tried a variety of methods over the past 3 years. He hasn’t tried being transparent with me, and allowing open discussion about his obsessive thoughts. He hasn’t tried seeing a psychiatrist to get meds for OCD. He hasn’t tried eliminating “triggers,” or even bought a single book! Now, I’m not saying any of this would have worked; I’m just saying if he valued his family more than he wanted to fuck other people, he should have at least tried something different than counseling!!
I do believe that a person can become addicted to sex, based on studies showing a correlation between increasing porn consumption and an increased sexual arousal threshold. Even before “sex addiction” became popular, I thought my stbx’s sexual appetite seemed more like a drug habit. It was difficult to explain to other people, but he seemed to need a “hit” to level him out, or he’d behave like a druggie without his drugs. I don’t think an “addict” label of any sort gives anybody a free pass, but rather that they need to do extra work.
Sex addict or not, he didn’t do the work. I’m done.
It became increasingly clear, over time, that sex was not only a pleasure and a source of intimacy for my ex, it was a stress-management technique. I tried to talk to him about managing his stress better in other ways, too, and he did start going to the gym regularly, which helped.
But I wasn’t even bothered by sex being a stress-reducer for him – as long as it was sex with ME. I’m convinced that the main reason he had this second affair (7 ys after the first, and I knew about both really really fast) was that he was working in another city, 4 days a week, very stressed by work, and hating being alone for that time. He was too fucking lazy to look for ways to manage the stress and loneliness, and to protect our relationship and our family. So when Schmoopie hit on him, BINGO! Lazy selfish idiot.
I commented about this on the thread yesterday. My ex was in sex addicts anonymous for about a year. What a bunch of bullshit. He is NOT a “sex addict.” He is a closeted gay who loves the thrill of cheating, lying and living a double life. Whether he is fucking a man or a woman, the real thrill comes from the sex being in some way immoral, illicit, dangerous or “dirty.” Even if he came out tomorrow and admitted he was gay, then found another guy to marry, he would STILL cheat, lie and manipulate, because THAT is who he really is.
I realize now that he was still lying to me all the time while he was in the SA group, and in fact, I now suspect he was fucking other guys in the group. When he went to a gay bath house during that time and got a blow job, he claimed all the other group members were fine with this, and said it did not revoke his sobriety, because it was just a “test” of his self control, and that was okay. I believed that bullshit back then, but now I see it’s ridiculous. Obviously he never admitted the incident to the group.
The way I see it, his year in that group was just another way he got some kibbles for awhile. I am sure he played up his “remorse” and “recovery” to the hilt in those meetings and got all sorts of attention and praise. But in no way did it change his behavior — not back then and probably not now. And that is because he does NOT WANT to change, he sees nothing wrong with his behavior and he loves the excitement of the double life.
Bad habits are not “addictions.” I personally don’t believe in addiction outside physically addictive substances like smoking, drugs and alcohol. Porn, gambling, eating and the rest are lifestyle choices, not addictions. They may be very difficult habits to break, and they may be rooted in FOO issues or low self esteem, but that still does not make them addictions. And when it comes to “sex addiction,” that is really a character issue along with habit and lifestyle choice. Serial cheaters are lacking in good character, and probably a high percentage of them would qualify for a NPD diagnosis.
But whether it’s a real addiction or not, one thing you can be sure of is that a “sex addict” is not going to change.
My stbx husband’s behavior fell into the sexually compulsive end of the spectrum. At first, I went along with all the 12 step, csat, “recovery” crap. What kept bothering me was the fact that he couldn’t have suddenly fallen into addiction. I’ve watched people become addicts (sex, drugs, and rock and roll), it takes several dips into that toxic pool to become an addict. It’s not like food or alcohol addiction. There’s no socially acceptable amount of heroin, crack, or infidelity. You have to decide that you are somehow exceptional and therefore not subject to the same rules that govern the rest of the world. He couldn’t claim addiction for the first few times he paid someone to touch his no-no square.
I don’t know about sex addiction, and agree with CL’s premise that it’s just an excuse, but I truly believe that in addition to personality disorders, my Ex had a sexual disorder or deviance going. I know this from how he treated me sexually, and from his articulated, expressed sexual fantasies to have sex with underage girls, and to commit acts of physical torture, abuse, humiliation and pain. Admitted porn use. Implied child porn use. Secret emails found later, after D-Day. Strange numbers all over the U.S. on cell phone records, found after D-Day. At any point had he stated he had an “addiction” or a problem and wanted treatment, I would have moved heaven and earth to help him. Instead he gradually got more and more extreme and I went along with it, indulging ever request until I ended up brainwashed. And yet still, it wasn’t enough – he was cheating serially throughout our entire 16 year relationship, culminating in my discovery of Schmoopie and my kicking him out that very night. God only knows what fate awaits this very, very, very sick man.
*every request, not “ever”
TheMuse – Your Ex is an Arsehole Extraordinaire, in many ways he reminds me of ‘The Great I Am’ – utterly driven by a pornographic, misogynistic unquenchable obsession with his sexual fantasy life. Was it an addiction? Who the fuck cares? What you and I both care about is that they carried on with their obsessions with absolutely no regard for us, yet expected, nay demanded, we went along with that bullshit unquestioningly and accepting every screwed up aspect of it. In the end, both your ex and ‘The Great I Am’ had the choice whether or not to make promises and commitments to us, and both these arseholes made the choice whether or not their promises meant anything to themselves. They both gave themselves passes on being honourable men. They both have to lie to themselves forever in order to justify their broken promises. I would lay bets that neither your ex or ‘The Great I Am’ would accept their attitudes and behaviours were abusive or misogynistic, I’m certain both would like to view themselves as better than that, but despite their pretzel bending justifications, you and I at the very least, know the truth. I really don’t care for their excuses – did they know what they were doing was hurting someone else? Then it was shite. Full stop.
Thank you, Jayne. No, my Ex certainly did NOT acknowledge anything he did was abusive. In one of our post dday discussions I said, I never wanted to do that stuff; he said, “those were just ‘innocent bedroom games'” – I said, NO, I felt abused by that! What did he say, “Well. sorry!” I said I felt like I wasn’t even there when you were doing that stuff to me. He then turned it around narc-like fashion and said “Aha! that proves you were never there for me emotionally! I was always trying to make an emotional connection with you, Muse, and you were never there for me!” I thought my head was going to explode. Yes. Sick. Sick. Sick.
Yes: “carried on with their obsessions with absolutely no regard for us, yet expected, nay demanded, we went along with that bullshit unquestioningly and accepting every screwed up aspect of it. In the end, both your ex and ‘The Great I Am’ had the choice whether or not to make promises and commitments to us, and both these arseholes made the choice whether or not their promises meant anything to themselves. They both gave themselves passes on being honourable men.” Thank you! am cutting and pasting to save this awesome insight.
Muse – I often felt like he might as well have had a blow up doll there instead of me. ‘The Great I Am’ was obsessed with the idea of me having sex with another man while he watched. Initially, I was ok about it – figured ‘a bit of spice is nice’ – but when it became the ONLY thing that mattered to him when we had sex, I started to hate it. I told him I was starting to really not like it, but of course, that went in one ear and out the other. It even became yet another bizarro excuse for why he cheated – apparently, poor sausage, I’d duped him by being ok with it initially but then going off it. Yep, there you go – stand up on judgement day and give that as the reason you became a lying, cheating, backstabbing POS – why don’t you! And btw – he never, ever stopped (not once) using the ‘watching me have sex with another man’ fantasy – even after I’d told him I didn’t like it.
Astonishing isn’t it! As we Chumps know, of course had he at any point said to me ‘Jayne your fantasy about such and such makes me feel uncomfortable and I don’t like it’ would have had me mortified and never, ever again would I have discussed it, never mind expected him to have sex with me to it!
Your experience sounds similar to mine. The blow up doll came to mind, many times. One of his terms of endearment was “you’re my little fucktoy!” that one was mild compared to some of the other bizarro things he used to say during sex. I was so brainwashed by this sicko. I used to tell him I didn’t like being called a whore and a slut. He said those were “good” things.
My ex-wife knew the sex-addiction argument was a farce.
So instead…she claimed to have a “kundalini awakening,” or a “female chakra awakening.”
Apparently, the “symptoms” are similar: acting on desires to f*** people other than your spouse. However, with my ex-wife’s “kundalini awakening,” the desire is just for one specific man…
…who happens to be a coworker
…who has a girlfriend and son of his own who conveniently live in another state
…who doesn’t respect the boundaries of marriage.
It’s fascinating how a kundalini awakening focuses on specifically THAT individual.
It must have been scary and treacherous for my ex-wife to endure that awakening!
Mine had a kundalini awakening too! What garbage! It was one of several “spiritual paths” he explored. All of these “paths” were justifications to do what ever he wanted on the grounds that being more enlightened than me meant that normal rules no longer applied to him. I had nearly forgotten the word ” kundalini.” God, I was stupid to put up with that crap.
Kundalini Awakening???!!!
Tracy, I know it’s only mid-March, but can we get JC an award here for reporting what has to be the biggest bullshit cheater piece of word salad of the year?
Amazeballs. *AND* she expected you to buy it. #mindblown
To be fair, she only gave me this line 5 months after I’d already filed, and our divorce was almost finalized. This was just excuse number 3541 of why she was driven to cheat.
Boy, I shudder to imagine what other doozies she came up with. Kundalini awakening? Looool
OMG, how ridiculous!! lame
So that it what is going on with my STBX, a Kundalini awakening. I’m so glad to have a label for it now! He has the same symptoms as your ex, except his co-worker is married with children.
Here’s my experience with the sex addiction label:
The first MC we saw after dday used to work with sex offenders. I didn’t know that going in but it turned out great for her to have had that background. She immediately knew that cheater was still lying and completely lacked empathy. She forced him to confess to more women and years, then told me that he made her nervous to work with because he was SO good at lying. That’s when she referred him to a therapist that specialized in sex addition.
The SA therapist was too easy on him, in my opinion, so cheater was able to lie to that therapist. Because of the lying, the SA therapist initially said that he wasn’t convinced that cheater was a SA. Cheater adamantly denied in writing that he was an SA or a narc. Then the confrontation between cheater and I occurred in the cheap motel parking lot where cheater admitted new info to me – that he had been inside with a prostitute and had been seeing prostitutes throughout our marriage. He also admitted that he was a SA when I asked him – then he immediately went straight to an entitled narc and began blame shifting everything on me. I met by myself with the SA therapist the next day where he, based on the motel incident, apologized to me and diagnosed cheater as an SA, narc, pathological liar, and likely sociopath. Cheater actually saw the SA counselor a few more times by himself (I was NC with him at the time) before quitting therapy because he didn’t agree with the diagnosis.
Do I believe in sex addiction? Who knows. The only thing I know for certain is that he was a serial cheater, was cheating for the thrill of the chase as well as the sex, wasn’t looking to replace me, admitted to always having unprotected sex with these women and prostitutes, and wouldn’t put the effort into changing his ways. I also know for certain that I won’t allow behavior like that in my life so as my moniker says, bye bye cheater!
Yup, I was told he had a sex addiction. Nice try.
I have a Ben & Jerry’s addiction, but it doesn’t result in breaking my marriage vows.
To me, sex addiction (or any type of non-chemical addiction) is a manifestation/coping mechanism of some underlying issue. If you can treat the issue, wouldn’t that have better results?
The problem is that a lot of cheaters have personality disorders, which are a hell of a lot harder to treat than mood disorders (anxiety, eating disorders, etc). The most you can hope for is that they learn ‘skills’ to help with the behavior. I don’t want to be married to someone who needs to be taught ‘skills’ to not cheat.
Of course I’m making huge generalizations, but realizing that the odds were against me that my cheater husband could change helped me feel less guilty about walking away (and feel better about getting individual therapy to address MY disorder of feeling guilty about leaving a serial cheater and hence rely on my friends Ben & Jerry).
Thank god neither cheaterpant’s IC or MC put an addiction label on him. He’s always been a serial cheater, so I know it has never been about ME.
He is a functional alcoholic, compulsive eater and binge dieter, porn viewer, liar, thief and cheater. NPD with sociopathic tendencies- that’s what the therapists say. Yay!
My therapist never saw X so would not put a label on him, however after listening to me for 3 sessions, first Q therapist asked was “Has X ever received any psychiatric treatment that you are aware of?” I said no. “Because that’s some fucked up shit,” therapist said.
“Because that’s some fucked up shit,” therapist said. – that’s pretty awesome! How great to have a therapist actually say that!
My therapist told me he was disturbed and a narcissist after I told him what he did to me this time. He later called him a sociopath and an asshole. When I told him about the message my x told me about on our computer regarding child porn he said he wouldn’t doubt that he was accessing it. X said it was a mistake. Recently he said he was stupid because of his antics during the court hearing. I have a better understanding of the discard this time around. Erasing his wife and family helps him obtain a new identity, a fresh start,a new improved mask. His jig was up. Everything is making sense.
Donna, I never received a “diagnosis” of narcissist or sociopath from my therapist but the reading list he gave me was obvious this was what he was trying to tell me. And yes, I’m convinced though I never found proof that he was into kid porn as well. When the mask fell off on D-Day, my Ex didn’t even try very hard just flipped a switch and started immediately pledging all fealty to OW, even said “One minute I was 100% committed to you, Muse, and the next minute I was 100% committed to OW.” Erasing, as you say, so easy to do for a Narc or s-path. My therapist also said “it is too late for a person like this to ever change.”
I was shocked by my therapists words initially. Disturbed narcissist? I needed that jump start.
// ,
Hello, my name is Nathan and I have a problem. I have an honesty problem.
I know it won’t be easy, and that I have been conditioned by my childhood and environment.
Just because it’s hard, though, doesn’t mean it’s not worth it.
The world out there is big, bigger than I can imagine, filled with deception, fantasy, and delusions, and I have decided that I want to be a part of it.
I recognize that I am powerless to deal with my honesty, and I submit to a higher authority, that of the universe itself, to help bring me to where I belong.
I know that rigidity and being uncompromising are not part of me, and that they can be expelled.
Thank you all for being a part of my journey away from my failings.
THE DISHONESTY PRAYER
God grant me the dishonesty to hide the things I wasn’t supposed to do; the boldness to disclose that which I can blame on “addiction”; and the slyness to know the difference. Eating one cake at a time; Enjoying one bite at a time; Accepting two joint counseling sessions where I cry a few fake tears as the pathway to more cake; Taking, as is my wont, this sinful world as it is, which is just exactly how I like it; Trusting that the next hookup will make all things right when I find him/her/it on Craigslist; That I may be reasonably happy at home and supremely happy with whoever will suck my pecker at Motel 6.
Nomar, this was a laugh I really needed on a crap day. Thank you.
PS You should run for President. Just sayin.
I love it Nomar!!
Nomar, your post triggered a memory. Ex and I did the Retrouvaille program during our bogus reconciliation. During one followup meeting, ex got up to speak, and actually CRIED as he told all assembled that he had “broken his vows” but felt ashamed now and would never lie or cheat again. Believe me, he got a lot of kibble for that dramatic performance. And performance it was, because that lying fuck never had the slightest intention of being honest or stopping the cheating, he only wanted to reconcile so he wouldn’t have to pay support.
Love it! Nomar for the win. 🙂
OMG we <3 you nomar 😀
Anonymous, this is hilarious! Maybe THAT’s the problem, we’re just too rigid in our attachment to honesty. Perhaps we can all become narc cheaters, with time and a supportive group to encourage us!