UBT: I’m Not a Cheater, I’m a Cake Eater

cake eater

A bunch of you sent in The Cut’s “I’m Not a Cheater — I’m a ‘Cake Eater’ by Magdalene J. Taylor. Apparently this is supposed to break new ground in infidelity news. The greedy partners who want both a (one-sided) committed relationship and a bit on the side now self identify. In fact, they have their own sub-Reddit. The article teases:

“Talking to the adulterers who are happily married and seeking out other partners on the side.”

Is anyone surprised by this, or am I just a jaded old blogger? Esther Perel tried to present Happy People Cheat as profundity in the Atlantic years ago. Yes, of course cheaters love their partner appliances and want more.

But the Universal Bullshit Translator needs to earn its Lebkuchen, so here we go with another happy cheater cake eater article.

I, Cake Eater

Alyssa is one of many who see themselves as having their cake and eating it, too: people who maintain “monogamous” relationships with a committed partner while secretly having affairs on the side. This is, of course, a dynamic as old as time — cheating is nothing new — but like so many other sexual identities, a community has more recently emerged around it. Cake eaters, as they call themselves, are defined as “a person who is married, generally happy and satisfied, has regular sex with their SO, is not planning on divorcing or separating or looking for an exit affair, and is additionally having sex with other partners,” according to the r/Cakeeater sub-Reddit

Thanks for the scare quotes on monogamy.

Cheating is nothing new, but the euphemisms are. Hey chumps, cheaters are happy. And isn’t that what matters? They’re not planning on divorcing you, just using you. You’re welcome!

Their reasons for wanting to stay vary. For Alyssa, breaking up would mean needing to live alone in a high-cost-of-living city, something she can’t afford to do. And besides, sex with her partner has picked back up again, and their relationship has improved. But even so, the side hookups, which occur anywhere from twice a week to once a month depending on their schedules, haven’t stopped. “There is very much an addictive quality to the whole thing,” she says.

I get cheap rent, you get Herpes. #winning

Not enough

As John tells me with a smiling-purple-devil emoji, r/Cakeeater has taught him “good habits” like using a burner phone, never charging things to a credit card, and maintaining a routine in order to keep up appearances. John has been married to his wife for 25 years and has three children. He and his wife have sex once or twice per week, but it’s not enough. “I need enthusiasm,” he says. 

John gets regular sex but not enthusiastic sex. The UBT would like to offer its services. It promises to fuck John with a burner phone. Enthusiastically.

(I’m sorry, the UBT is overheating and not properly translating.)

So a few times a month, he meets a woman on a dating app. While the methods have evolved, he has been seeing other women the entirety of his marriage.

John’s wife hasn’t been enthusiastic enough for their entire marriage, as evidenced by the three children she bore him. Had there only been pompoms and confetti, it wouldn’t have come to this.

Some guilt?

He says he feels some guilt about the dynamic. “But the thing is I only have control over me. I can try to date, romance, flirt with the wife, and I do … but the ‘brake pedals of sexuality,’” he says, referencing Emily Nagoski’s book Come As You Are, “always seem to screw things up.” His wife has lots of sensitive “brake pedals” that slow down her desire for sex, while he, on the other hand, has an abundance of accelerators.

My wife gave birth to three brake pedals.

No one wants to hear the details of your pussy buffet

A number of recent stories have featured polyamorous people who emphasize their belief that non-monogamy can offer a salve to these familiar woes when practiced “ethically.” This idea has been met with a sense of fatigue: Nobody really cares how many people you sleep with; they’d just prefer not to hear about it. As someone recently joked on Twitter, “A relationship where we both think being poly is cringe so if someone asks us if we are poly we say ‘no we cheat.’”

Being openly polyamorous is cringe. Double lives? Not so much.

“I saw it [cake eater] on Reddit and found it to be a more palatable way of saying ‘I’m a cheater’ in a public forum,” Rob, a Floridian in his late 30s who uses the term cake eater on dating apps, tells me. Rob has no desire to actually date the women he sleeps with. The fact that it’s wrong and secretive is part of what he enjoys. “I get off on the thrill of the illicit act,” he says.

Rob is honest. He does not want to buy you dinner or have a conversation with you. He wants to fuck and not pay for it.

He’d be hurt if his wife cheated on him, especially if there was an emotional component to the affair. For his indiscretions, he reports that no feelings are involved. He does, however, wish his wife were more interested in his kinks or perhaps wanted to pursue a male-male-female threesome. Neither of these will happen, so he gets his rocks off elsewhere. “Nothing justifies my behavior,” he says. “I know it’s fucked up.”

Rob would be hurt if there were a level playing field. So he’ll keep cheating and blame his wife’s vanilla sex. He knows it’s fucked up, but rocks. They must be obeyed!

Open relationships are too fair-minded

Whether polyamory or an open relationship is preferable to this lifestyle is a frequent source of discussion in these online groups. For Alyssa, John, and Rob, polyamory isn’t even desirable. “I don’t think I have it in me to care about the emotional needs of other men and date other people,” says Alyssa. “I also don’t think I’d like my partner getting that sort of attention from others.”

My partner is much too busy meeting MY needs (and failing), I can’t have them shilly-shallying about servicing other people. Ethical polyamory will not do.

Other people are so exhausting. Why can’t they all just be interchangeable orifices that do my bidding, indulge my fantasies and then go away? Why must they be attached to people who have needs? I already have ONE needy person I can’t deal with — my partner appliance. Is free, on-demand sex with strangers who won’t call me again too much to ask?

***

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jomarch
jomarch
4 days ago

It’s not even AITA anymore. It’s IATAAIDC–I Am The A**hole And I Don’t Care.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  jomarch

And some media outlet will write about me like this is perfectly fine!

Adelante
Adelante
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

This. The normalization of unethical or boorish behavior makes me depressed.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  Adelante

Just rest assured it’s a limited echo chamber of a very small minority. Gallup polls show that, even as the US has become more “sexually groovy” and tolerant towards things like gay marriage and single parenting, public “approval” of adultery has only plummeted over the past twenty years to the point it got less approval than abortion and human cloning.

But I think that’s exactly why the pro-adultery crowd are trying to “wag the dog” and “sway the masses” these days by cranking up their proselytizing to a manic pitch in the media. And I recognize the danger of “normalization campaigns” of all sorts of shitty things throughout history which, despite being supported by a minority of obsessive maniacs, can sometimes succeed because of how wishy-washy most of humanity tends to be. Like, how was it ever once legal to beat wives when, statistically, most men don’t? I think it’s because truly evil people, even if they’re in the minority, tend to be far louder and more intensely driven than average in their feverish crusades to close the gaps of their own cognitive dissonance and reduce stigma and consequences for their crimes.

Orlando
Orlando
3 days ago

HOC, you are bang on about that! I can think of at least one very loudmouth vocal group & what they’re up to!

KatiePig
KatiePig
4 days ago

I work with a lot of younger people and it seems like they’re completely rejecting the ideas that cheating is empowering. I’m also seeing them reject the notion that sleeping around is empowering. Like yeah, if you want to be promiscuous and you’re single, go ahead, but don’t act like you’re brave or more feminist for it because that’s “cringe.”

They give me hope. They’ve also been so supportive towards me while dealing with this while my peers my own age decided I was just a bigot for not being totally cool and accepting of my ex-husband spending our money on underage transgender prostitutes. Clearly, one could ONLY have a problem with that scenario if they are a bigot. What other possible issue could there be? If I was a cool wife, I would have been accepting and visited the sex trafficked transgender children with him, obviously. I forced him to hide his true self and he had no choice but to seek out vulnerable children to rape. Totally my bad. /s

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  KatiePig

Maybe there’s a bit of a generational tendency to overcompensate for having grown up in a conservative or sexually repressed environment. And it can depend on how deeply religious one’s family and communities were. I know my “recovering Catholic” acquaintances or people I know who grew up evangelical often went through really “wild” periods where they reinvented the wheel of being sexually groovy and liberated.

Meanwhile I grew up around my family’s artist friends who were so over the whole Jackson Pollack era of drunken, suicidal, whoremongering painters that they tended to live pretty healthy, drama-free lives and would roll their eyes over people who thought being an “artiste” required cirrhosis and bonking underage circus animals. I’m also third generation agnostic– at least on my mother’s side– and barely understood what some church-raised people were rebelling against or what was so thrilling about it.

I noticed that some of the less pleasant “overcompensators” from hyper-conservative backgrounds would end up proselytizing the groovy way of life and negging others who weren’t as permissive, not realizing that they had ironically replaced one cultish set of beliefs with another. I knew one chick like this in college who had run away from her violent, bible-thumping family at 16 who used to actually rip people apart for not embracing anal or SM, etc. It got to the point where she sounded distinctly anti-feminist since those feminists were always running around being negative about sexuality and complaining about rape. Even after she escaped a college marriage with a violent Bulgarian fashion designer she would go into a lot of “not like other girls” spiels about how she wasn’t one to make a big deal out of few broken teeth or nonconsensual sexual encounters, tsk.

You go girl, whatever. Not all of us have that much to prove.

MamaMeh
MamaMeh
2 days ago

Goodness, thank you, gives me more perspective on the awful DARVO mindfuckery I got about being “judgey” of the ex. Needless to say, those ppl aren’t in my life any more, but gosh there was a lot of painful confusion and guilty feelings at the time.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 days ago
Reply to  MamaMeh

What, you mean you didn’t get an advanced degree in criminal psych before getting married? Then it’s your fault you got hoodwinked!!!

Totally kidding. What probably motivated me to learn all about negative bystander response in college and later while working in advocacy was being bullied in grade school (my artist parents decided to leave crack-infested NYC for the “safer” burbs, not realizing they were plunking me into a den of Nazi spawn or Brock Turnerville). The inactive or blaming bystander response always struck me as the most painful and confusing part of that experience. In advocacy, I learned this has a name, the “second injury” of domestic abuse.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 days ago

Wait, posted too soon. In sum, I think that kind of negating social response can be brain-melting. It causes such primal fear that it’s hard to think.

There’s a famous film titled “The 82nd Blow” based on something that a survivor of Auschwitz said during the Nuremberg trials. In his testimony, one survivor talked about the ancient Hebrew proverb about how a righteous man can endure 81 blows from his enemies but, upon the 82nd, will be destroyed. Then the survivor said that, for him, the “82nd blow” was escaping the death camp, fleeing to Israel and finding that, for many years, his own family and community didn’t believe a single word of the stories he told them about Auschwitz.

I think this is an incredibly profound thought. It’s not the direct acts of aggression that kills us but not being believed by those who are supposed to support us that does us in.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 days ago

Erg, a friend just reminded me that the documentary (and the parable) is titled “The 81st blow.” I’ve always been really dyslectic about numbers, sorry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_81st_Blow

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  KatiePig

You don’t let a chaser prey on vulnerable queer minors? How dare you!

Yeah, I can say that those I know in my generation have very little tolerance for that. I’m sorry your peers rejected you for not tolerating it, though. That’s disgusting, and I would almost take that as a red flag. They’re at least willing to tolerate and even support disgusting behavior.

KatiePig
KatiePig
4 days ago

Oh yeah, it’s a huge red flag to me. I have nothing to do with any of those people anymore.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago

You know, despite how eye-opening and honest your posts are, they always leave me with hope. I appreciate that.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

Aw, what a beautiful thing to say, thank you. It reminds me of what Thomas Hardy wrote, “If a better way to be, it exacts a full look at the worst.”

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

Sorry, typo. “If a way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.”

LookingForwardsToTuesday
LookingForwardsToTuesday
4 days ago

Well there you go, another bunch of self-serving assh*les trying to justify their dirty little habits.

Three things jump out at me: firstly that they feel the need to keep the activity secret from their long-term partners (never a sign of healthy behaviour); secondly, that they feel that the sauce that is good for the goose is going nowhere near the gander (I mean God forbid that their partners be allowed to behave in the same way) and;l thirdly, it’s just the levels of entitlement and audacity at play (enough said).

LFTT

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago

So much for open relationships. They only believe in that when they don’t think their spouse would be interested or they think they can’t get a date.

susie lee
susie lee
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Yep, I was by traditional views a very attractive 40 year old woman, and I had worked for three years at DoD when fw left me for whore.

Surprised the hell out of him when a year after he left, I went out on a date with a retired AF man. He freaked so much that he drove by and stopped at my house the next morning when I was working in the daisy garden and he said “that guy you went out with is too old for you” (he wasn’t). Then he tried to get me to go see his apartment. I just told him I had no interest in that. A-wipe had not spoken to me like a human being in about two years, wouldn’t tell me where he was living, but all of a sudden…

I mean what in the world did he expect would happen.

Make no mistake he didn’t want me back, he just needed to get some control back. It was a fail.

Josh McDowell
Josh McDowell
4 days ago

They don’t lack fulfillment; they lack a conscience. Also, it’s always someone else’s fault.

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
4 days ago
Reply to  Josh McDowell

and empathy, a soul, impulse control, and more

Rebecca
Rebecca
4 days ago

How lovely.
“John gets regular sex but not enthusiastic sex”
Did John ever think that perhaps he’s the reason why sex isn’t enthusiastic???
After years of unsatisfactory sex, I pretty much gave up. I’m sure I was credited with being a terrible lay but after years of planning nights without the kids, begging for and planning date nights, hoping that middle of the night sex would lead to any sort of satisfaction, I couldn’t fake it anymore.
He was replaced with a vibrator that was way more reliable and provided some pleasure. At least that didn’t risk anyone’s health.

Bluewren
Bluewren
4 days ago
Reply to  Rebecca

There’s not much choice but to lie there when one is being crushed by the full weight of an oversized human.
I could have pretzeled into all sorts of interesting positions, but being groped and grabbed at as well as asthmatically breathed on by someone who doesn’t believe in any form of dental hygiene really didn’t set the scene for unbridled passion.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  Rebecca

You mean you don’t get turned on by a couple of pecks on the cheek, some basic groping, and the old in and out for 5 minutes or so? DAMN girl, you are so judgmental! Of course, I’m sure his wife on some level feels, even if she doesn’t “know”, that he’s just not that in to HER, or maybe he just stinks at sex. So many cheaters DO. It’s hard to hide your basic lack of love for and interest in, a spouse. That shit ‘s contagious. Many people suspect that their spouses are cheaters but are unable to get the evidence, or they decide that even a bad marriage serves it’s purpose for them. They want to keep it going for the kids, for the money, for their religion, whatever. I bet if one of these cheaters asked their unenthusiastic spouse “Do you think I cheat?” , the answer would be yes. And of course, energy grows where energy goes….the plants you water, grow. The ones you don’t, struggle and die.

2xchump
2xchump
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

When both my cheaters were actively cheating and I didn’t know…sex was not enthusiastic anymore. It was as if they wanted it to be bad so they could complain to OW and justify their secret life…they were collecting fights triggered by their agitating, getting home late, you get mad, they have a “reason ” to cheat. Mine gave me grades and when I did have sex ..looking disappointed …wanting something else or if I said No for any reason..The target was always moving and the stories to.OW were built up over time so that when D day arrived, there were years of complaints that had been gathered up against me. Just like building a case to cheat.No chance to come back from the scrolls of my faults.

Chump-o-potamus
Chump-o-potamus
4 days ago
Reply to  Rebecca

It’s never their fault. I was criticized for not being “into it enough”. Well, when he’s comparing me to the 20 year old porn stars who are literally paid to fake it, of course natural enjoyment won’t look the same.

I spent years trying to spice up the bedroom with role playing, trying new things, etc but it was always for his benefit. If I wanted to explore something I found exciting, he wasn’t interested. Sex basically turned into a him using me to m*sturb*te. But sure, it was my fault…

Conchobara
Conchobara
3 days ago

THIS! FW said he just had to cheat with all his super young APs because I never reacted the way he wanted/expected. Turns out, he was so addicted to p*rn that a normal woman’s response wasn’t enough. Of course, the fact that after 20 years he STILL couldn’t keep track of “it” for one lovemaking session was my fault, too. Besides, all his APs were paid so they no doubt put on the performance he was expecting.

Bluewren
Bluewren
4 days ago

You can always tell the ones who learned all they know about sex from watching porn.
No one screams like that for such little effort unless they’re being paid substantially.

Conchobara
Conchobara
3 days ago
Reply to  Bluewren

BINGO

Chump-o-potamus
Chump-o-potamus
4 days ago
Reply to  Bluewren

Exactly! Sex stopped being enjoyable when I felt I had to “perform” instead of relaxing and actually enjoying it.

All a Blur
All a Blur
4 days ago
Reply to  Rebecca

Did John ever think that perhaps he’s the reason why sex isn’t enthusiastic???

I think it’s the distinguishing feature of all these so-called “cake eaters” that they not only aren’t to blame, they actually cannot be to blame. My ex would stub her toe on a chair, and immediately, loudly blame the manufacturer of the chair, the last person to sit in it, communist China- anything except her own misstep.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Darn those overworked slave laborers in China!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Haha, bingo. I observed exactly the same thing regarding the toe-stubbing and minor accidents. He’d explode in curses and say things like “Why is this chair here?! Who moved it??”

But I also suspected that mishaps like this were used as opportunities to flex anger and aggression, sort of like a chimp going into a random branch-dragging/chest beating display to remind everyone who’s boss. Enough random displays like this can start to frog-boil bystanders by literally “hacking” their nervous systems, causing a sudden jolt, shock and fearful surge of cortisol that can become physically exhausting and destabilizing over time. Bystanders may not realize they’re being gradually nudged into hypervigilant, volatile states. Some will start freezing/fawning and others will go into fight/flight which then gives the frog-boiling instigator an excuse to escalate the aggressive tactics and/or “get even” through betrayal, all while identifying the victim as the “problem.”

I had some inkling that the whole toe-stubbing-rage-flexing/cortisol-hacking was a “thing” back when I did advocacy for domestic abuse survivors but at the time no one had really nailed it down as a specific escalation/terror tactic in coercive control because coercive control wasn’t yet widely understood. But my marriage became like a lab study of it. I’m imagining the abstract:

Evol Hum Behav. 2019 Oct; 33(6): 468–4489.
doi: 10.1016/j.evolhumbehav.2018.12.076
NIHMSID: NIHMS346348CAKE

Indirect rage-flexing as covert means of inducing adrenal insufficiency? Testing evolutionary hypotheses in escalating coercive control
HELLUVA, C, BITTERBUNNY, A and FROGBOILED, R

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
4 days ago

“sort of like a chimp going into a random branch-dragging/chest beating display to remind everyone who’s boss. Enough random displays like this can start to frog-boil bystanders by literally “hacking” their nervous systems, causing a sudden jolt, shock and fearful surge of cortisol that can become physically exhausting and destabilizing over time.”

That is EXACTLY my experience. I was frog-boiled over time to be afraid that he would be mad. But him being mad was an abstract thing. He didn’t have to DO anything. I could always tell if he was, and it would make me feel that awful anxious belly feeling. I started to do anything I could to avoid that feeling. Joke was on me, bc no matter what I did, he was always getting angry about something or other.

I’m STILL doing it. Putting off the legal part of the divorce because “he’ll be mad”. It’s taken me 2 years of therapy to get to the point where I understand that I have to bite that bullet as the legal aspect will allow me to go closer to NC and escape the cycle of caring if he is mad or not.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

It’s kind of a sad transition for some relatively innocent chumps to start actually getting a bit of a bang out of how pissed off FW’s get when they’re thwarted because that often signals you’re winning a round. I remember this shift from “oh no he’s mad! Did I do something bad?” to “Haha, he’s agitated. I must be hitting a nerve.”

Even if that transition tends to signal transcendence from chumpdom, being a harder target for manipulation and is a sign you’re learning to survive, on a certain level it feels disappointing and as if something (innocence) is lost. In a better world, why would we have to learn to out-asshole an asshole? I just remind myself that I never asked to be in this fight. My goal in life was not to outdo some jerk at his own game. I was the ultimate hippie/Miss America contestant who just wanted love, peace and happiness for all…

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

My “guru” in domestic violence advocacy used to tell survivors to “put a tax” on their abusers for the “lost innocence” of being forced to fight a battle they never asked for.

Leedy
Leedy
4 days ago

This is so weird: last night, I had a very detailed dream in which I was once again with my first husband and he subjected me to an episode of just this kind of “rage-flexing.” (It was such an awful dream, but so precise and realistic about the routines he used to put me through!) I’m always surprised that these horrible imprints have lingered for, now, 26 years after our divorce, when in waking life I have moved on. But hey, I guess if your cortisol has been hacked, your body remembers and it will all flood back in your dreams!

Your posts about coercive control often illuminate aspects of that first marriage that I had little understanding of at the time, except to the degree that I knew my husband was being an asshole.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
3 days ago
Reply to  Leedy

Nobody had a real understanding of coercive control before a few years ago except maybe the late Evan Stark and his wife and fellow veteran street fighter/researcher/advocate/ground-breaker Anne Flitcraft.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  Leedy

Oops, posted too soon. I meant to continue that, imagine the amperage of psychic energy that abusers distract from all the causes that classic chumps would probably have channeled towards important humanist causes throughout history. The tax goes on abusers for any butterfly effects this has had on the history of the world.

Leedy
Leedy
3 days ago

Right.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  Leedy

“Asshole” is almost like a euphemism for “life-altering, chaos-sowing, fear-inducing, distracting-from-higher-purpose, peace-of-mind-hacking, torturous, ruinous scourge.” Imagine the amperage of psychic energy abause

Leedy
Leedy
3 days ago

Well put!

KattheBat
KattheBat
4 days ago
Reply to  Rebecca

They never consider they might be the bad lay. Nope, always someone else’s fault.

Conchobara
Conchobara
3 days ago
Reply to  KattheBat

Soooo boring. I mean, he is/was my only so I don’t even have much to compare him to, and yet, I still know that I deserve way better.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  KattheBat

They never got the difference between “making love” and “having sex”.

Leedy
Leedy
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Absolutely

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

Cheaters admitting they wouldn’t like it if their chumps did the same is the takeaway here. I think it’s the double standards that clearly define these disordered, gutless walking abortions as domestic abusers. There’s even a study arguing that the enforcement of one-sided monogamy may be a driving motive for domestic violence and abuse. Researchers didn’t have to go all the way to Bolivia to find evidence of it. I saw the same when working as a DV advocate. Virtually all batterers cheat and virtually all cheaters engage in coercive control which, even if the latter haven’t yet been violent, still warns of a statistical capacity for it.
Infidelity, jealousy, and wife abuse among Tsimane forager-farmers: Testing evolutionary hypotheses of marital conflicthttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3583221/

It has long been argued that men’s jealousy over women’s infidelity is the strongest impetus to men’s lethal and non-lethal violence against female partners. Less is known about the extent to which women’s jealousy over men’s infidelity precipitates men’s violence against female partners. Husbands are more likely than wives to commit infidelity, and men and women report a similar frequency and intensity of jealous emotions during recalls of potential infidelity. If men are likely to use time and resources for pursuit of extramarital sexual relationships, wives’ jealousy may play a critical role in mate retention, but at potential cost of instigating marital arguments and violence against wives. Given men’s greater size and strength, violence against wives may be used as a “bargaining” tool to strategically leverage a selfish outcome, despite potential costs to the victim, aggressor, and offspring.
This is the first study to document content and prevalence of marital arguments, and prevalence of men’s violence against wives during such arguments in a small-scale society, the Tsimane of Bolivia. We show that men’s diversion of resources from the family is a major source of arguments between spouses and husbands’ violence against their wives. We argue that husbands employ violence to limit wives’ mate retention effort and maintain men’s opportunities to pursue extramarital sexual relationships.

Conchobara
Conchobara
3 days ago

After DDay I asked FW how he would have liked it if I’d done to him what he did to me and he said, “Honestly, I don’t think I would have cared.” The cherry on top of the dehumanizing cruelty at the end.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
3 days ago
Reply to  Conchobara

I’m sure he said it in a very credible-sounding way and you totally believed he meant it as anyone listening would have. But– ah– that might relate to that thing certain prison researchers noticed in some of the most dangerous domestic batterers, something dubbed “masked dependency”– something I’ve written about a lot and which I think applies to a lot of cheaters.

Basically, rather than coming off like the usual cartoon of the psychotically jealous wife beater, those who display masked dependency tend to exude the reverse. They appear bland and uncompetitive. The latter also reportedly tend not to spout a lot of overt misogyny or display overtly patriarchal beliefs. They might even sound “woke.” But, as researchers explained it, this is because this type considers jealousy to be the most shame-inducing, intolerable mark of weakness so they do everything they can to hide and disguise their own sexual proprietariness/possessiveness even from themselves. This concept was used to speculatively explain why this type could often end up being more catastrophically violent than other abusers when they sensed their partners might abandon them or feared their partner would engage in another relationship.

I had a suspicion that Chris Watts might be a really extreme case of this. Remember how floppy, bland and passive he always seemed in some of the home videos that appeared in documentary news reports on the case? I thought it was interesting. Furthermore, rather than admit to police that he killed his wife and children in a blind rage because she threatened to leave after discovering evidence of his affair, he actually courted a stiffer sentence by framing his own motives as even more heinous. He told police that he killed his wife and kids because they were “in the way.” He might even have believed this himself. But, according to the masked dependency theory, accepting stiffer penalties would probably be more palatable and tolerable than ever admitting in a million years to his own pathological, infantile fear of abandonment and being replaced.

When I and other DV advocates read about this theory back in the day as part of training and continuing education, we kibitzed further and pestered one of the psychologists who consulted with the service. One of the untested theories that arose from those yammering sessions was the idea that this type of abuser cheats primarily to “displace” their own terror of abandonment/sexual betrayal onto their partner. It’s like the “masked dependent” type of abuser thinks that, if they can make their partner feel all those bad feelings, this will somehow spare the abuser from having to experience those bad feelings in a kind of kill-or-be-killed dynamic.

Anyway, if you never personally tested the theory (which I would never recommend) and went ahead and had an affair in kind, it’s hard to say how that asshole would have reacted. But there’s a theoretical possibility that he might have gone extra-apeshit.

I’m not even sure that the FWs who do the “Houdini disappearing act” of suddenly just dumping their families without a word and moving far away with their schmoopies is really a contradiction to the “masked dependency” theory. According to a certain demented logic, you can imagine some might just be trying not to look back because of the risk that, if they ever witnessed their former victims “moving on” and forming new relationships, they could potentially end up in prison.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago

That sounds about right. I see it all over the manosphere, I’ve heard it in real life…

What was that shitty middle school saying? “A lock that fits all keys is useless, but a key that fits all locks is a master key.” I could have told the researchers that men who spew that garbage are absolutely violent types. I suppose it’s good to have the sources to back it up, though.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

Yikes, I never heard that saying in middle school or any time since. So vagina = lock? A lock implies a wish to keep something secure. A key that fits all locks– aka a skeleton key– is carried by thieves. So, by this analogy, skeleton key = rapist.

Uh, yes, anyone saying something like this is guaranteed to be dangerous.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

I’m a big citer. One hilarious college professor used to channel the serial killer character from Silence of the Lambs with “It gives citations for its claims or else it gets the hose again!

Lol, love it. I never forgot that and later learned how important this is especially when working in advocacy and trying to stand up to power an embattled cause. When I worked for an eco health publication, we were always going up against these paid science trolls from the “Skeptics” industrial front group who would lob all sorts of tobacco science crap at us– like ghost written studies showing that pesticides are healthy for toddlers!

In order to combat these bogus claims, even if you work in environmental law or journalism, you’d have to be able to read and understand the junk science and know everything about how corrupt research hides financial conflicts. In order to stop the shills from dazzling the undecideds with sciency-speak, you’d have to be able to present alternative arguments on the same playing field.

Of course if we outdid the trolls (not hard when their claims are all based on studies funded by Monsanto or Bayer, etc.) by coming up with better science and exposing the corrupt money trail funding their junk science, the trolls would then wail that only those with advanced degrees in science were allowed to read and interpret science and we usurpers were forbidden!

The censure was exactly like those tenth century church canons banning the laity from translating scripture because the church couldn’t maintain power if the plebes actually understood what Christ said (and all those– oh noes– socialist implications). That’s when I realized that, in an era when laws and policies are often based on cellular and social science, democracy isn’t possible if voters don’t have a degree of literacy in reading scientific research. As a lawmaker, community activist or lobbyist, you can’t combat bad science-based laws or argue for better ones if you’re not able to cite and form arguments based on science.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

Oh, and lawmakers, community activists, lawyers, journalists and lobbyists won’t even be able to delegate their arguments to a scientific expert (if one can even be afforded in the first place) if they can’t assess the relative independence and basic quality of that scientist’s work and arguments. For better or worse, science is political and anyone fighting illegitimate power had better gain literacy or it’s like walking into a gunfight with a pom-pom.

2xchump
2xchump
4 days ago

Tracy throws up flairs, detonates explosive devices and pulls the pin on the grenades, for all of us chumps to.open our 👀s and they eyes of the world on cheater techniques and their true evil & selfish intents. I am so very very grateful to her for shining the spotlight on cheaters and
their operations. We would not know the under belly of cheating and that we are of use, not loved or respected. We are simply and only of use, to be deceived, to be infected, to be lied to and abused
.while cheaters get it all. Kids, home a warm unexciting body, Frosting and cake. They are the main actors on the stage of life, while chumps get a few lines here and there. Walk on roles , now walk out till its time.again. Im so thankful for Chump lady and what she did and does for me and all of us. She, to this day, keeps me 💪 with no contact and with the tools to get through my divorce with courage and less regrets for not leaving sooner. My Cheater took his ring off and slammed it down many times before D day. No I didn’t ask him why he did that.I was too afraid to know the truth that I was not loved, cherished, respected and honored as I wanted to believe. The blindness of deceiving myself and wrapping myself in all the red flags I picked up was monumental.. Well that dance is over and I could not be any happier with who I am becoming. Thank you Tracy and CN. I’ve left all the lies behind.

ToHaveAndToWithhold
ToHaveAndToWithhold
4 days ago

What stood out to me is calling cheating a “sexual identity”. The author is lending these abusers pseudo-legitimacy with that term, as if it were a sexual orientation. This is a deeply offensive parallel to make.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

It’s sickening to see thunder being stolen from legitimate life-and-death identity causes like gay rights and civil rights. It’s exactly like Andrew Tate and the manosphere hijacking and jujitsuing terminology and arguments from #MeToo. But it’s an old game. Every perp since time immemorial has played victim to their own victims and pretends their aggressive instigation is righteous and justified. The tendency to do this is actually a diagnostic trait in domestic batterers who tend to fervently collect “palliative arguments and comparisons” that rationalize their abuse.

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago

Great point. It’s really quite a despicable thing to imply. Being gay, straight or bi has nothing to do with character. Being a cheater is 100% about character. It’s not that non-cheaters don’t have any attraction to people other than their spouses. It’s that they don’t act in it. This person seems to think that only cheaters feel those things, therefore it is their “sexual identity.” That person must be a FW, because only FWs stupidly and grandiosely assume their spouses don’t feel any sexual stirrings for other people.

Last edited 4 days ago by OHFFS
ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
4 days ago

It’s like saying “I identify as a rapist, so I don’t want to be judged or discriminated against for my sexual preferences.” The whole distinction between cheating (bad) and polyamory (problematic for most, but ethically sound) comes down to consent. None of the chumps in these relationships is being given the ability to consent to what type of relationship they are in because they are being actively deceived.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

For real, some pedophiles have tried to call themselves “trans children” as an argument to legalized child sexual abuse.

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago

🤮

Last edited 4 days ago by OHFFS
Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

“It’s like saying “I identify as a rapist”

Oh, it’s coming. Believe me….it’s coming.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

It’s come and gone for years and keeps coming back again like a tumor.

Article about how the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE) nearly got a civil liberties lobby that it infiltrated to lower the age of consent in 1970’s Britain:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/how-paedophiles-infiltrated-the-left-harriet-harman-patricia-hewitt

From Wikipedia: Pedophile advocacy groups
From the late 1950s to early 1990s, several pedophile membership organizations advocated age of consent reform to lower or abolish age of consent laws, as well as for the acceptance of pedophilia as a sexual orientation rather than a psychological disorder, and for the legalization of child pornography. The efforts of pedophile advocacy groups did not gain mainstream acceptance, and today those few groups that have not dissolved have only minimal membership and have ceased their activities other than through a few websites.

List of pedophile advocacy organizations (international)

KattheBat
KattheBat
4 days ago

…this is cheating. It’s literally just cheating. There’s nothing new or different or any kind of “twist” that makes it different. It’s just cheating with a different name.

“We’re Cake Eaters!” There’s already a term for this.

Cheating.

And I noticed despite saying they’re in “happy” marriages, they say nothing about their spouses that indicate they love them. First one cites it being too expensive for her to divorce. Second one says it taught him “good habits.” Not anything that actually improves his marriage or his wife’s home life…just ways to…hide the cheating.

The mind truly boggles at the lies cheaters tell themselves to avoid the moniker of cheater.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  KattheBat

I think a lot of cheaters are like this. Mine claimed he loved me, and when pressed, could even come up with things he liked about me sometimes. But I don’t think it’s something he ever thought about unless he was made to directly think about it. Like when we talk about how good life is, we won’t bring up our really good vacuum usually, but we’ll rave about it when asked about it. They love us, in the way we love our favorite rice cooker or mixing stand. An appliance.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago

Hello, I was lovebombed to Kingdom Come. I used to actually correct him. No, I’m pretty sure there are smarter, more beautiful and more transcendently saintly people around. I’m dyslexic, reverse numbers and can barely balance a checkbook. I’m grumpy in the morning and selfish about my coffee ritual. I have bony elbows and my forehead is too high. Etc. But he would argue, no, you are the most… bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Then he would get a stalkery fixation on some coworker or other and, all of a sudden, I was hideous, incompetent, stupid and awful. It always came out at first as “jokes” — haha– and then would escalate to vicious verbal attacks.

I started to realize that all of this– both the lovebombing as well as the “retraction of all love, respect and admiration”– is part and parcel with abuse. They set you up just to increase your internal injuries from the fall when they knock you down and it’s all about control. Fortunately, I don’t think I was being totally faux-modest when I deflected the lovebombing. I don’t chronically measure myself against other people and my self esteem isn’t based in being the “most” anything. What I mostly value about myself is that I give a shit about a lot of things. That’s the one thing someone who’s on a campaign to break your heart and break your will can’t really gaslight you over because even their ability to hurt you only proves that… you generally give a shit.

That experience always reminds me of what my mentor in DV advocacy liked to say, which is that “The only glamor is harmlessness.” She didn’t mean “harmless” as in passive in the face of abuse. She was fierce and always coached survivors to fight back with every fiber. She meant ‘harmless” in the sense that one doesn’t seek to harm the powerless or vulnerable. I think that’s a very solid thing to base self esteem on. And very “glamorous.’ It’s what the really beautiful people do.

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago

“They set you up just to increase your internal injuries from the fall when they knock you down and it’s all about control.”

Spot on.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
4 days ago
Reply to  KattheBat

One says “the wife,” not even “my wife.” Pretty clear giveaway for emotional distancing, depersonalization of the victim, etc.

Bet you any money “the wife” can sense every bit of it and may be slowly melting into an anxious, sleepless wreck. Bet this mofo also weaponizes this against “the wife,” blaming her inherent “craziness” or “daddy issues” or “chemical imbalance” to anyone who will listen.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
4 days ago
Reply to  KattheBat

Kat,

You had the same take as I did. They aren’t even trying to say this is ANY different from cheating. And “cake eaters”??? I mean, Tracy already uses that exact term here all the time, on what is probably the most known and popular anti-cheater site They didn’t even come up with a name that is new OR disguises what they are doing.

It amazes me how many pretzels they will twist themselves into to try to make cheating “ok” or something else. Pardon the pun, but this one takes the “cake” in that it is so transparent. May as well have named their group” “People that want to sneak behind their clueless spouses backs to sleep with other people because we like it and want to and don’t care who it might hurt”

KattheBat
KattheBat
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

Right? I started reading this thinking it was going to be some dumb new multi-partnered but-not-entirely-honest-about it relationship woo woo thing, but nope. Just…straight up cheating. They can call it whatever they want but this is just garden variety infidelity.

susie lee
susie lee
4 days ago

It all boils down to they want to live a single life, and also have the image. And my view is for a long time they really do enjoy both lives, the illicit sex for obvious reasons, but they also enjoy the family, and the added thrill of knowing they are really pulling it off on the BS, and everyone lied to them: they can have their cake and eat it too. Well at least for a while, but make no mistake they think they have it under control.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
4 days ago
Reply to  susie lee

I liked the one who said she can’t afford an apartment on her own so she won’t divorce. That’s another honest cake-eater. Why get a divorce, lose 1/2 your stuff, have to pay rent on your own when you can just…cheat?

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  susie lee

I’ve always said…..you can’t be single and married too. Pick one.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
4 days ago
Reply to  susie lee

Susie,

Your situation was very specific in that your FW really did want that image to advance his career. That was very cut and dry and I am sure there are others who have similar situations because there are men who NEED to look like upstanding citizens and a nice family boosts them. It’s almost like you are the ultimate wife appliance with ALL the bells and whistles, you don’t just cook and clean, you lend legitimacy to his role in society.

My FW? It won’t harm his career to be known as as cheater. But for mine, I don’t think. He it was that he so much wants to be seen as a great family guy…so much as he DOESN’T want to seen as the opposite of a great family guy. Same result, but different angle. He doesn’t want to be the middle aged guy that leaves his established family for a newer model. It won’t hurt his career, it will hurt his EGO.

The joke is, if you leave your wife and kids for a newer model, you ARE that guy. It is simply a fact.

susie lee
susie lee
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

I totally get the subtleties, but as you said the results are the same, and the actions are similar; lying, cheating, secret life etc. Sometimes they know for a long time they are scheming, sometimes short term. In the end it is all about what they want, and it is subject to change if they aren’t getting what they want, or they are exposed and have to scramble.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

You are what you do.

susie lee
susie lee
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Exactly, even if you keep it hid; that is who you are. What you do when you think no one will know; that is your base character.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
4 days ago
Reply to  susie lee

I got into a few huge arguments with my FW post DDay. (Waste of breath, but I few times I lost the ability to be quiet, I was too angry)

He said something about how he had just made A mistake. And I told him No you didn’t. You cheated before on other people. This wasn’t a mistake. This is simply WHO YOU ARE.

Took the wind from him sails for a moment. But I am sure he has since forgotten and actually believe he really did just make “a” mistake.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

He misplaced his dick.

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Totally. My FW, at some point after Day, said; “People aren’t their actions.”
I asked him what makes up who people are, if it’s not their actions over time. I got crickets.
If he’d had the guts to be honest about his POV, he would have answered; “Their fantasies about who they are.”

KattheBat
KattheBat
4 days ago
Reply to  OHFFS

Yep. The biggest indicator of who someone is is their consistent actions and behaviors over time. If I shop lift some lipstick from Ulta once, but stop shop lifting and understand it’s wrong, then I’m a person who once stole something from a makeup store.

If I cheat on my spouse, consistently, over a long period of time, either with multiple people or with one person for months or years, and don’t stop even when caught, I am a cheater.

Imagining myself as a perfect person and trying to re-label cheating with a different term doesn’t change my choices of repeated actions.

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago
Reply to  KattheBat

Yeah, I remember shoplifting with a friend as a child, after hearing other kids saying how much fun it was. I didn’t understand that even if the retailer is a huge franchise, retail theft is built into the cost of goods so that prices are higher for everyone. We got caught and that was explained to me by my parents, who grounded me for two months. Once I understood that it was wrong, I didn’t do it again, so it wasn’t a character issue.
My so-called friend was celebrating her birthday the very next day, after lying to her parents that I made her do it, whereupon they banned me from ever seeing her again. I did indeed never see her again, but something tells me she didn’t end up with the most sterling character. We need to be given those lessons as kids, not coddled like her parents chose to do.

Last edited 4 days ago by OHFFS
Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
3 days ago
Reply to  OHFFS

It’s interesting since you could be making a case that children who just happen to be more talented at lying– or who (more likely scenario) have the very bad luck of having stupid or disinterested parents– can end up with a personality disorder simply because their early bs was rewarded.

Not a chance that was going to happen with my parents, lol. On a camping trip at the age of four, I once stole a little rubber monster figurine– probably a $1 eraser– from one of those highway tourist shops. On one level I think I was too young to understand theft but, on another, I might have had a budding concept that I was doing something wrong since I hid it in my pocket until we reached our destination 200 miles later. Then I proudly showed the rubber monster to one of my cousins on arrival. On seeing this, my parents immediately put me back in the car and drove the whole 200 miles to the roadside vendor and made me personally return it with an apology.

I was basically set for life after that.

unicornomore
unicornomore
4 days ago
Reply to  susie lee

I dont think my Cheater ever wanted the real, authentic family he claimed to. I think he felt resentful that society (especially the military which makes zero allowances or room for non-spouses) expected him to marry. He wanted exactly what he had for years…a facade of respectability and plenty of side action. Now, years later, I care less about the sex or even the lying…what continues to cause lingering angst and pain is how fucking mean he was to me (likely fueled by the guilt but rather than stop, he blamed me for his bad feelings and punished me for them).

susie lee
susie lee
4 days ago
Reply to  unicornomore

To clarify personally I do believe my ex wanted the family man stance, and he happily accepted my efforts and sacrifice for his benefit.

When it became clear that he could no longer have both, he leapt into the dumpster because he was being squeezed likely by the whore, but also because he had extracted all from me that he could. What I am sure he didn’t expect was for someone to drop a dime. He fully expected to dispose of me quietly and drag the whore out of the alley as his new squeeze. Whoopsie.

susie lee
susie lee
4 days ago
Reply to  unicornomore

“He wanted exactly what he had for years…a facade of respectability and plenty of side action.”

Right, that is what I meant; they really do want it at the time, their deep reasons aside they wanted both those things and they got it for a season or two.

I really wanted to be in good shape and eat all the cake and cookies I wanted, it didn’t work for me. But, I really wanted both.

chompchomp
chompchomp
4 days ago

Hi CN. Male chump here. My D-Day was two weeks ago and this website, Tracy’s sagacious advice and your comments have been an absolute lifeline. I’ve already broken the relationship off permanently and gone NC (after ten years together and fifteen years total knowing each other – but thankfully no kids and unmarried). The guidance here was crucial in enabling me to do that.

Just had to get that off my chest. Thank you Tracy. I owe you one.

On topic – this article disgusts me. Of course, it’s the same as every other article on the topic of infidelity, dealing with cheating as if it’s a minor misdemeanour like jaywalking, or a sort of intriguing personality quirk.

I had a look at that Cakeeaters sub that the article mentions and couldn’t make it past the first headline.

Shaking my head. It’s so sick that people will do this in the first place. To actively revel in it is something else.

It’s sad that it doesn’t receive moral condemnation in the media. Just like the FWs don’t think about the chump’s feelings or what their actions are doing to them, we’re passed over by opinion columnists too! I guess being a cheater is just more edgy and exciting than faithfulness and loyalty.

Screw the cake eaters (not literally). There are GOOD people out there who would never even think of doing something like this to their partners, as proven by this community.

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

Amen, Chompchomp. Welcome to CN and congrats on leaving the cheater.🥂

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

Welcome to the party! It sucks you have to be here, but I’m glad you found us. Unfortunately, we don’t have oversized t-shirts yet, but I’m sure that’s coming soon!

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

Welcome chomp, I am sorry as to why you are here, but happy that you are here.

All a Blur
All a Blur
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

Awesome that you’re starting with such clear action. Congratulations. The other road is paved with fool’s gold. As so many of us find out.

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

Welcome to the lifeboat. There is plenty of room for you and I am glad you made it off the Titanic.

❤️

chompchomp
chompchomp
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Thank you!

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
4 days ago

I am among those who sent this to Tracy STAT.
It actually sickened me to read it, but it did not surprise me at all.

Recently I noticed that Traitor Ex is wearing a Chinese red string bracelet. The primary AP is a Chinese national and is likely sporting one too. For the uninitiated, these are either for Chinese New Year, worn for good luck and warding off evil (which would be ironic in their case) or worn by those whom fate has drawn together and have an unbreakable bond.

I have to admit I felt triggered seeing it. Thinking it over, I realized it probably means as much as his wedding band, his vows, and the legal marriage he asked me to enter into that came with documented certification.

Later that day I came to see their red string bracelets as douchebag tags. If only more cheaters would don ID bracelets or some other kind of markings so easily spotted in the wild!

I am sure he is a cake-eater. He initially said he “wanted to live by himself for a while but did not want a divorce.” I immediately asked him if he was involved with someone and he said no. I smelled BS and went into PI mode and pretty quickly found the Craigslist cockroach mentioned above. Evidently she said she would not see him anymore unless he left, and his “living by myself for a while” was probably his disordered but unrealistic solution to try to keep the situation the way he wanted it.

No thanks.

I might head to Chinatown in San Francisco later today and get my daughter and I matching red string bracelets to represent our unbreakable bond and ward off evil and bring us good luck…..

Last edited 4 days ago by Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Cheaters, cake-eaters, douchebags, pick your moniker.

Whatever you want to call them, they don’t have relationships; they take hostages.

When you’re in a relationship under false pretenses without informed consent, you’re a hostage, not a partner. Not a spouse. Not someone beloved. Not loved, at all.

If you hold people hostage, you’re a captor and not capable of love as far as I am concerned. That goes for everyone who participates in holding someone hostage.

They think they’re so cool and clever and sophisticated and fun and with it; they’re really the bottom of the barrel, not the cream of the crop keepers.

Stick with the winners. Cheaters and side pieces, by definition and as clearly proven by their behavior, are not winners.

unicornomore
unicornomore
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Early in our “Wreckonsillyation” (please pardon my naïveté that I actually believed him that we were “together”), he lived in SF and claimed he was no longer seeing OW who lived near him while me/kids were 3000 miles away. Finding stuff in his papers after his death made his betrayal clearer and one of the things was a souvenir from Chinatown in SF which was his name written in Chinese (the OW was Chinese) thus indicating they were together in SF. I got to throw out that piece of crap along with his “teach yourself Mandarin” CD set.

Shadow
Shadow
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

I reckon you’re right that the bit of string’ll mean no more to him than his wedding ring, his vows and the legal document he signed. All that matters to the likes of him is getting their urges sated and feck everyone else.
As for it warding off evil, it seems it doesn’t work really does it? Or else it’d warded those 2 off each other and both of them off their own evil selves!

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

I see lots of articles and books about cheaters and why they cheat.

Not so much out there about how it feels to be cheated on, the effects of cheaters on their victims, on children…..

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Truth.

Josh McDowell
Josh McDowell
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Sometimes I think it’s because society does not think it’s a crime, just a moral and ethical issue, therefore, there are no victims. There is a lot of sin leveling if you’re involved with the church, or if you are not, it’s the moral equivalence game. A lot of victim blaming goes on.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
4 days ago
Reply to  Josh McDowell

I am convinced that If you aren’t a chump, you see cheating differently.

My FW met his schmoops and then told me that he had never been happy with me and that they were soul mates, that they were together in past lives and would be so incredibly happy together.

Did that hurt? Yes. Of course it did. After decades together it killed to be told that what we built wasn’t enough. And society says that we shouldn’t be insecure and jealous. And non-Chumps often see this as a case where we should just not be insecure and jealous as he was just finding his bliss and I should get over it and be happy for him.

But the thing is… it is NOT just about being jealous. It is MORE about the fact that we were oblivious, and were doing things and making decisions with only half the info of what was ACTUALLY going on in our marriage.

I see chumps that gave up careers to move across the country, only to find out that their spouse brought them there because that is where AP lives. People that are told to retire early, and then a month later discover the affair. Get STIs because they “naively” had unprotected sex with their partner of a decade. I’ve read some doozies here. My situation is more mundane, but as is often the case with FWs, mine was emotionally, mentally and verbally abusive. He was incredibly difficult to please and I tried really, really hard to please him anyway, much to the detriment of my SELF. I thought that I was living up to our vows, that I was loving him despite his flaws. No one is perfect etc. But to discover that put up with all that for him, all while he was carrying on with someone else? THAT is what cheating is. And I found out YEARS in. YEARS. To think of all times he was horrible to me and I accepted it, but he was actively involved with someone else at the time?

We’ve been together for decades. This was the first affair I am aware of, but stats tell me there were likely others. Had I known I could have left a long time ago and not put up with his miserable self.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

The fact that all these cheaters and “society” love to ignore is that the faithful spouse built their entire life and future on the idea of having a faithful spouse who was working alongside them to build that future. When you find out that they are doing all of these things to undermine you, your children, your finances, your family, your community life, possibly your career and education….that ruins people’s lives and they have to rebuild them. THIS IS NOT A VICTIMLESS CRIME. THIS IS NOT ABOUT PERSONAL HAPPINESS. This is about destroying people’s lives for selfishness and it should not be allowed. If people want to do these things, they should not benefit from them or as little as possible, and/or be punished by society for hurting others. If you lie to someone, possibly for decades, and they build their life around YOUR LIES, YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED.

I am sick of a society in which guilt is not assessed, the innocent bear the brunt of the crime, and no punishment is ever given out. I want PLENTY of punishment. I BELIEVE in Crime and Punishment and those who deliberately and callously wreck the lives of their family, especially their children, need PLENTY OF IT.

KatiePig
KatiePig
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

Yes! You nailed it. We were making decisions based on false information. One “friend” asked me what the big deal really was if the marriage was fake. I told her “Well, he got to make decisions for 20 years based on what was best for him because he knew the marriage was fake while I made every major life decision for 20 years prioritizing this fake marriage and family That put me at an enormous disadvantage in life.”

I remember her eyes just got really big as that realization settled over her and she went quiet. She never responded to that or broached the topic again. I mean, what do you say to that. It’s the truth.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  KatiePig

People never really think about how devastating this is to people, not only on an emotional level but in terms of how life actually works out. We make all kinds of plans and try to carry them out and have no idea that our spouse, the person we rely on so deeply and intimately, is secretly making plans that will fuck us and our whole family over in the end. All of these magazines and media outlets and infidelity writers, etc, all try to make out that there are no real consequences to the cheating other than emotional, but it can devastate people’s lives in very real ways – jobs, education, real estate, finances, resources, children – all of these things – especially if you have invested years in someone. Many people are approaching retirement age when they discover the cheating and/or are abandoned. It’s hard to make up the lost time and resources then. It’s not just an emotional or romantic or sexual shock or loss….WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE LOSS OF DECADES OF LIFE AND POTENTIAL DECISIONS AND RESOURCES – things that were done with a spouse or things that were NOT done….like staying at home with the kids or not. All kinds of decisions are made, we hope jointly, and to discover there was a whole separate agenda we were unaware of, is a tremendous shock. Some people never recover from this kind of massive, all consuming, DECEIT.

One last time
One last time
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

This is exactly how I see it. I sort of break it down into three areas.
One – they “fell out of love”. Ok, that hurts, but if they handled it responsibly and respectfully, I could have eventually accepted it, and the marriage would not be forever tainted, and the prospect of any sort of relationship in the future highly doubtful.
Two – what you mentioned, the faking and scheming. Staying with me, probably for years and not being committed. We have made many huge decisions the last few years. And I made them thinking we were a team. Thinking we were on the same page. Thinking we were committed to seeing this out together. I could have gone along with some of her ideas that would have been awful for my future, a future that was destined to be without her.
Three – obviously giving themselves permission to disrespect and devalue you and the relationship by fucking other people, and justifying it somehow in their heads that its ok.

Josh McDowell
Josh McDowell
4 days ago
Reply to  One last time

I think what people don’t understand is you trust your life and your future with this person and then they decide that nothing really mattered to them in the end except themselves. Discard and betrayal are very damaging events to deal with.

chompchomp
chompchomp
4 days ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

It’s interesting, isn’t it?

I am still a neophyte in this area, blissfully unaware of my chump status as I was until two weeks ago.

But you could say I’ve gone on something of a crash course in the literature in the meantime.

It’s always all about the cheaters. Their wants, their needs, why they did it, why it’s hard for them to stop, how the chumps should help them, and so on.

What the hell is that all about? It’s deeply weird. I find it really surprising that Tracy is such a lone voice, with her straightforward advice that people cheat, basically, because they’re incredibly selfish. It’s really not that complicated.

As soon as I found CL and started reading Tracy’s material, it was one lightbulb moment after another. When you look back at your ex’s actions over the years, you realise that the cheating was part of a much broader pattern of selfish behaviour.

One last time
One last time
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

Congratulations to you for your early clarity on this. I struggled for a long time, and if I’m honest I still have those pangs, especially if I break NC. Mentally I’m definitely there, but emotionally I liken myself to the frog in the pot of water. I think I’ve been conditioned to view our disfunction as normal. It started out slowly, like the cold water, but after years I still struggle sometimes thinking that boiling water is comfortable. That’s why NC is critical for me.

Adelante
Adelante
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

“It’s always all about the cheaters. Their wants, their needs, why they did it, why it’s hard for them to stop, how the chumps should help them, and so on.
What the hell is that all about? It’s deeply weird.”

Out of the mouths of babes (or neophytes, in this case). It is indeed deeply weird. And yet it’s so deeply entrenched.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

Tracy really IS one of the very few people out there with an honest view of infidelity and real clarity about how to handle this. She’s honest, practical, direct, and funny as hell. Whenever this issue comes up, in line or in person, I ALWAYS recommend Tracy and her book. I think most of the rest of them have a couple of basic agendas. The better ones are trying to keep marriages together at all costs, even if it hurts (or kills) the faithful spouse….they put the marriage ahead of the well being of the spouse. The larger group, which is most of society’s media and institutions, ENCOURAGE CHEATING because they support sexual activity of all kinds pretty much with no restraint – ALL sex is positive to them, they deny its basic power and power to destroy – and many of them want to actually destroy marriage and the family. We could debate why but to me the most obvious answer is….when you weaken marriage and family, you strengthen the Government, which is why destruction of marriage/family is so often depicted in dystopian novels. An authoritarian government, which many WOULD advocate for, does not want any rival ties that would weaken it.

All a Blur
All a Blur
4 days ago
Reply to  chompchomp

It’s always all about the cheaters. Their wants, their needs, why they did it, why it’s hard for them to stop, how the chumps should help them, and so on.

And now I think we can add to that list that they can reach for some kind of hip status or “sexual identity” to cloak themselves in a community of self-reinforcing, like-minded narcissists.

If we chumps don’t get it, we’re just not enlightened like they are, all caught up in the drab notions of yesterday’s mad “morality.”

Shadow
Shadow
4 days ago

Oh God help us, these people are pigs! They just want to roll about in their own shite and the poor old chump to clean up after them! Sickening!
The sooner infidelity is classified in law as a form of abuse, the better!

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  Shadow

I agree. I think we need to bring back the old moral codes that punish adultery, abandonment, bring back alienation of affection, NO CUSTODY FOR THOSE WHO ABANDON THEIR FAMILIES, etc. We have no teeth in our laws at all, we area always excusing people who do bad things….or enabling them.

Shadow
Shadow
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

I agree- some of the most vile and brutal crimes are being let away with just a “slap on the wrist2 in Ireland and Britain these days! It’s insane!

KADawn
KADawn
4 days ago

those people are … just… the entitlement and the audacity and the grossness and the irrationality– I get mine but I would be uncomfortable if my partner did to me what I’m doing to them… how do these people LIVE WITH THEMSELVES???????

WalkawayWoman
WalkawayWoman
4 days ago

I proposed an open relationship to the Lying Cheating Loser after I caught him cheating the first time.
For him, it was just a fun new game with a new set of boundaries to violate.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
4 days ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

My FW 100% admitted to me that he would love to stay with me, and have an open relationship, but he couldn’t handle ME dating others. He then tried to convince me that I wouldn’t want to be with others and so maybe that could work. I spent some time trying to unravel that one.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

So…..what would be in an OR for you then? Why would you (or anyone) agree to that, LOLOL!!!!! That’s so stupid.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

ORs rarely work. Not unless you just don’t give a shit about each other anymore and it’s really just a business relationship. They violate all the rules of an open relationship just as they do a normal one. They won’t abide by rules. After all….YOU’RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!!

WalkawayWoman
WalkawayWoman
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

I believe it’s possible for two committed, loving, honest and transparent partners to successfully conduct an open relationship ethically and with care and respect.

However, none of those adjectives are applicable to cheaters.

Leedy
Leedy
3 days ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

Right.

Chump-o-potamus
Chump-o-potamus
4 days ago

This is just nauseating. Pathetic, self centered humans. I mean, all FWs are, but essentially bragging about it to a journalist or on Reddit is just next level despicable.

Chumped in KC
Chumped in KC
4 days ago

We have an epidemic of Malignant Narcissism going on in the world, and they are this guy. He is the poster boy (A-hole) for entitlement. And they use all kinds of rationalization and justifications for their shitty behavior. Because that is all it is, excuses and shitty behavior. These people are immoral FW’s that enjoy getting what they want, but also hurting the innocent partner behind the scene who has no idea what’s going on. It’s not just the cake they love getting, but the thrill of the secret AND hurting their SO. They are sick, demented people without a soul!

side note: This all applies to cheating women, too.

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
4 days ago

I am not at all surprised these cesspools exist. It’s so normalized by the RIC and entertainment industry. In their mind the chump is non existent or to blame for the narcissistic quest for consequence free cake.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago

These are just garden variety selfish degenerates who only care about themselves and have no actual interest in or concern for their spouses or kids. To live a totally one sided secret life where the SPOUSE is being exposed to VD (yes, let’s call it that), some of which can be permanent and/or fatal, unwanted pregnancies, crazy APs, possible financial loss, social shame, frequently abandonment, and just living a fake life because YOU DON’T KNOW WHO YOUR PARTNER REALLY IS AND HOW THEY LIVE, is one of the most evil fucking things you can do. It makes me want to bring back burning at the stake. The misery these degenerates cause especially when the spouse finds out – which they usually do – is LEGION.

My question is: WHY PUSH THESE ARTICLES? WHY TELL US ABOUT THESE DEGENERATES? WHY EVEN GIVE THEM EXPOSURE? There’s an agenda behind this and it’s resolutely anti-marriage, anti-child, and anti-social.

At least this one was relatively honest – they want to do what they want to do, they try to blame their spouses for lack of sex when maybe the lack of sex (or “enthusiasm”) is because the spouse KNOWS on some level that there’s no real marriage, they don’t say it’s “tru wuv”, they would not want their spouses to fuck other people – they’re just selfish, evil, cruel, fucking degenerates who hopefully will find their way to Hell some day. But WHY print this shit at all?

Spinach@35
Spinach@35
4 days ago

“He’d be hurt if his wife cheated on him, especially if there was an emotional component to the affair.”

Cheaters see nothing wrong with double lives and double standards. It’s all double the fun for them, who are the only ones who count in their selfish thinking. Rules for thee and not for me.

As much as my ex used words like “unforgivable” and “regret,” I’m confident the he felt that he deserved to please himself, to satisfy his “soft voice of defiance.”

He felt that he was grabbing the proverbial brass ring (#euphemism) when it presented itself. Doing so made him a brave risk-taker unlike his friends who stuck by their wives. Shortly before d-day, he brought up one such friend and actually mocked him for being “so respectable.” What?

By the way, he had tried to get that friend to cheat on his wife, too. Despicable! Who wishes that on a friend?

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  Spinach@35

Yeah. The double standards are nauseating, as is the attitude that they’re COOL n EDGY. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. And ugh, trying to drag his friend into it! It’s more than likely a subconscious (or conscious) way to ease his own feelings of guilt or shame, but nasty nonetheless.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  Spinach@35

“By the way, he had tried to get that friend to cheat on his wife, too.”

That really is vile. But it makes them feel less evil when they can get other people to do it too. Then it becomes….the “norm”.

unicornomore
unicornomore
4 days ago

Cases of syphillis are booming especially among older people and that is a horrible disease if not treated right away. The idea of these folks playing around and bringing disease home has always been icky but it is becoming more likely.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  unicornomore

A great point especially because, like the Spanish Inquisition, NOBODY expects syphillis! Especially among older people. It’s just not something you think about but….there it is…along with the grab bag of other VDs. If you’re talking about someone who’s been promiscuous possibly for decades, like some of these cheaters, you don’t know what’s been brewing or for how long and they never seem to get tested.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago

This makes me nauseous, but is unsurprising. I think what makes me the most angry sometimes is how they defend their own sleeping around, but fully admit they don’t want their partners to do that, and I’ve seen that everywhere beforehand. Especially from the manosphere sector, but really, people of any gender.

“For Alyssa, John, and Rob, polyamory isn’t even desirable. ‘I don’t think I have it in me to care about the emotional needs of other men and date other people,’ says Alyssa. ‘I also don’t think I’d like my partner getting that sort of attention from others.'”

I hope your significant other finds out, and if you’re married, I hope they get everything in the divorce. I hope everyone you ever meet judges you as a flake, a liar, and an abuser. Genuinely. As unforgiving as that is.

Leedy
Leedy
3 days ago

“They defend their own sleeping around, but fully admit they don’t want their partners to do that.” Yes.

In recent years I repeatedly asked my then-husband if he’d like for us to try out an open relationship, since he has a high sex drive but I have chronic pain that prevents me from wanting to have sex very often. He said no, as he wasn’t “made for an open relationship.” But then . . . he decided to start something sexual with another woman behind my back! I think he just didn’t want me to have a parallel opportunity to start flirting with anyone besides him (however limited my desire for sex now is). This is a really vile theft of agency from one’s mate.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago

She doesn’t have it in her to care about the emotional needs of her spouse. It’s very clear she’s functioning at the level of a selfish 2 year old.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Excuse you, that’s mean to the 2 year olds! I was dealing with a classroom of selfish 2 year olds not five minutes ago, and being around them is far more emotionally fulfilling than being around a FW!

Childcare giggles aside, I feel so bad for her spouse. I hope he finds out. This is a difficult read. Admitting that you understand how “sharing” your monogamous partner would hurt, but doing it anyways?

The idiom rings true: It’s not that they don’t see, it’s that they disagree.

OHFFS
OHFFS
4 days ago

If we needed any further evidence that cheaters are deeply disordered, grotesque narcissists, that peek into the brain of the collective Fucko the Herpes Clown has provided it. Clearly, they all share one brain and just pass it around the campfire while telling whore stories.
I need a shower.

Last edited 4 days ago by OHFFS
Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  OHFFS

They’re sitting around the campfire, and we’re in the campsite shower stalls, using disinfectant as soap.

KatiePig
KatiePig
4 days ago

Rob would be crushed if his wife cheated on him, but he really hopes she brings another man in to their bedroom… for him to be involved with sexually as well. Yeah, that hits close to home for me.

I really despise that so many people in the current culture think women should be ok or honored to be used in this way in marriage, by abusive men. I hope someday that changes and people realize how awful it is. Women are people, not beards. We don’t exist to be treated like non human props by any men, including gay men. Being gay doesn’t make abusing a woman ok.

Mehitable
Mehitable
4 days ago
Reply to  KatiePig

Yeah, I picked up on that too. He wants to use his wife to lure men in for HIMSELF. When a man wants another man in the bedroom….it’s for him. It’s usually for him anyway even if it’s a woman. Most women who do the threesomes, etc, are doing because their man wants it.

Chump-Domain Cleric
Chump-Domain Cleric
4 days ago
Reply to  Mehitable

There’s a couple of good youtube videos on that subject, although they may be a bit too specific to share. Both of them talk about, though, how often the “third” person in the threesome is objectified and abused, and how the woman is often not really into it, or is pressured into it. Both of them also talk about how it’s people who are against open relationships or alternative lifestyles who often really enjoy these sorts of scenes. There’s a lot to discuss there, as the intersection of bigotry and sexuality is a messy topic, but I can’t help but think it’s something we should discuss here at some point – the unicorn hunters, the conservative swingers, and the racist raceplayers. Based on stories I’ve heard and others’ experiences, it sounds like those types of scenes are also full of FWs.

Stepbystep
Stepbystep
4 days ago

I wish there was a movement of young ” seducers” who would out these proud cake eaters. Because if it’s a secret from your partner, it’s cheating.

Rarity
Rarity
4 days ago

I spent the first few months of my XH’s exit affair raging and pick-me-dancing and doing everything I could to “win” him back.

Finally, I said, all right sweetie, he’s all yours. I literally told him he was a frosted turd and she’d be done sucking off the frosting soon and then she would spit him out. I stopped showing any interest in what they were doing, I just told him to pay his child support, do his visitation, and leave me alone.

A few weeks later, she dumped him. If I was actually going to let her have him, it wasn’t fun anymore.

Being “naughty” and abusing another person is actually part of the draw for these freaks. That is why they refuse to practice open marriage or polyamory or some other form of ethical nonmonogamy. The abuse is part of the fun.

I Count
I Count
4 days ago

I saw the article this morning and thought to myself I cannot wait for the Chump Lady to get ahold of this one.

Elsie_
Elsie_
4 days ago

I think that once you get the “roving eye,” whether through actual affairs, OnlyFans, or heavy porn use, the other partner needs to consider if they are truly comfortable with the revised terms of the relationship IF it comes to light. I wish that I had understood that a huge shift had occurred, but I didn’t until I began processing the reasons why he abandoned the relationship.

The bottom line was that I was no longer enough, and he was over-and-done with the responsibilities of marriage and family. Being retired, he could live anywhere, so he took off. I had to work out how to support myself and our two college kids, and answer all the questions about where my husband was. He got to enjoy the beach and the attention of “friends” as if we didn’t exist because we really didn’t exist in his priorities.

So he changed the terms, and I didn’t want that kind of marriage.

Last edited 4 days ago by Elsie_
Anna
Anna
4 days ago

“John gets regular sex but not enthusiastic sex. The UBT would like to offer its services. It promises to fuck John with a burner phone. Enthusiastically.”

Fucking brilliant!

Leedy
Leedy
3 days ago
Reply to  Anna

I too thought this was a special moment of UBT delicacy and charm 😅

2xchump
2xchump
4 days ago

Here’s a quote to end thus cake eating day.
Psychologist Henry Cloud wrote, “Do not hope for the evil persons to change. It could happen, and it does, but it does not happen by giving in to them, reasoning with them, or giving them another chance to hurt you. It happens when they finally are subject to limits that force them to change.
Addicts do not like the consequences of their addictions , but consequences do not stop the addiction unless they
are willing to change and have self awareness.

2xchump
2xchump
4 days ago
Reply to  2xchump

Just leave

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
4 days ago

For our purposes, I welcome these people coming right out and saying that the secrecy and deception is thrilling to them. I think that’s a hard one for newbie chumps to understand because they don’t yet understand these narcissistic people.

Stephen
Stephen
4 days ago

Doesn’t this whole thing just fall into the futuristic bucket of “stupid shit cheaters say”? “There’s a Reddit site that says everyone cheats and it is fabulous, this is how to do it”.

I mean seriously, who can argue with Reddit?

BastilleDDay
BastilleDDay
3 days ago

Cake for me & not for thee.

Chumpasaurus45
Chumpasaurus45
3 days ago

Why are there such a flurry of these cheater tributes out there lately? Are the ppl that write the articles also cheaters? Do they feel validation for their own assholery by showcasing all these tainted slumlords of society that are doing even more harm than themselves, so they feel more justified in their actions?
I just don’t get the appeal of reading this to anyone but fellow cheaters.
Who then get to imagine themselves as not that crappy anymore when the world seems chock full of swarms of endless cheating low lifes.
Any desire you want in life, regardless of who gets hurt, seen as perfectly allowable and within their warped grasp. They deserve to be happy society tells them over and over again!
They all fit in nicely, got their tribe, cheating seems so acceptable and in vogue. Or so these articles want us to buy into.
The cool people cheat, they seem to be trying to sell this belief. Thank God not everyone is buying it.

Ahhhhhh. ( deep sigh) Just find it tragically immoral and depressing to see these sick narratives given two seconds of anyone’s attention. What a waste of space and time!

But they wave their happy cheater banners, proud being members of the privileged scum ball club.
They believe they are entitled to any and everything they want in life, and any impulse they care to pursue. They are super special!
Living for only yourself, the pursuit of your own immoral happiness. What could be grander?!

Nary a word of the horrific pain being thrown on all the unsuspecting partners they’ve hung up on some hook at home, loving and waiting for them to return. It’s just deeply demented and sick.

It’s a shame that actions don’t always bear the consequences they should in life. There must be fleets of karma buses out there somewhere.

I like the UBT’s helpful service offer with David’s burner phone. 👍🤣
They would all have permanent burner phones where the sun don’t shine if my wish could come true.

I hate how proud of their deceits they are and how much they enjoy inflicting pain on their loved ones, gleefully pulling the wool over their eyes. What the hell happened to these ppl in their lives?!

I hope all their partners discover what trash they are before years and decades of trying to fix the relationships go by. So not fair.

Too bad they can’t all be called out on it and society didn’t favorably view their desires to be happy, while they destroy other ppl’s lives as just collateral damage.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
3 days ago

Guys, my husband had *mulitple* burner phones!! Simultaneously! He said he was using them for his work as an investigative journalist.

Cal
Cal
3 days ago

Well on the one hand CL, here’s abundant evidence that your lexicon really has hit the cheaterverse… And they’re doing what all narcissistic assholes do when this happens and labelling themselves with it proudly! Fucking hell.