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Dear Chump Lady, Why do I have to pay her when she cheated?

Dear Chump Lady,

I have been in a nightmare for 6 months, my wife told me that she had feelings for someone else. She told me this with a grin on her face no remorse, except the occasional “It just happened.” By the way, we made love the same night, she waited till the morning to stick the knife in me. OHHH shit CAKE!!!! I am reading your book.

I never saw it coming, although now I can remember when it started. It started when we left Florida and moved to California, three years ago. When we lived in Florida she said to me “I want to move to California, you can either come with us (we have a 6 year old daughter) or you can stay here in Florida.” Now that is a red flag, but as a chump I would have done anything for her happiness, so I rented my house in Florida, bought her a million dollar house in California and thought we would live happily forever.

In California she started going out a lot. At first I thought it was because she wanted to make new friends, but she was partying a lot more than I had ever known her to do. A couple of nights she would not answer her phone and never came home. She always had an excuse and I trusted her. Than came the knife… ouch.

She had a meltdown three days after she confessed, said that she was sorry, and didn’t know why it happened. So being the chump I went to therapy. (I think I found the best psychiatrist in California.) At first I was mad at the therapist, he said to me, “Your wife is going to do this to you again. You have two choices to make — accept the fact that you married an unhealthy woman and stick to her, which means accepting her infidelity — or file for divorce. My job is to make you stronger whichever path you choose.”

I was mad at him because my wife is a good, moral person, caring, and a great mother. She said she is sorry and I am sure that she loves me deeply. Okay, I admit it. I am chump!

I chose to save our marriage. Boy, did that turn out to be a mistake. Six months after the I-am-sorry bullshit, she did not come home again and it got worse, like going to the movies with a guy in his twenties (she is 33 years old) we’re-just-friends bullshit.

So I went back to my therapist in tears and he said, “I told you so, now do you want to live with this pain for the rest of your life?”

Fuck no….. please help me. He looked at me and said, “You are going to make it through this, we are going to ignite a candle in you and slowly build a raging fire, so you can be strong.” I remember leaving therapy that day and thinking I have to leave this woman.

I filed for divorce a month ago. Now I am fucked. I am a millionaire, have a business, I own a lot of real estate, have investments in the stock market. Now she is taking me to the cleaners. By the way, she doesn’t work.

What makes me mad is we were only married for 5 years. (Yes, we got married after our daughter was born.) Now she gets to live a wonderful life with her settlement and I get to eat shit. My lawyer says that California is a liberal state and it doesn’t matter that she broke the covenant of marriage. She has no money and I do, so I have to pay…. Bullshit isn’t it?

How can I justify paying her for breaking our marriage?



Dear Chumpedman,

Sometimes choices suck. You married a cheater and you bred with the fuckwit and now you’re going to pay for the privilege of divorcing her. Welcome to the shit sandwich buffet.

Chumpedman, often in life we have to do very unpleasant things to get better outcomes. Take, for example, the colonoscopy.  Forgive the analogy, but I just had a colonoscopy last week. My first. (It’s like a hazing ritual for the middle-aged.) You have to drink a gallon of this vile crap I can only describe as Satan’s Koolaid. A GALLON. (I can’t drink a gallon of anything I like, let alone a gallon of piss-colored poop juice.) The result is 12 hours of intermittent diarrhea. Punctuated in my case with vomiting. Always a good time. And then a trip to the hospital, an IV, and a scope up your butt.

No one would willingly CHOOSE to spend time this way. But do you know what’s worse than a colonoscopy? Ass cancer.

Back to you. No one would willingly fork over a shit-ton of money to their ex. But you know what’s worse than divorce? Living with a cheater.

She is your ass cancer, Chumpedman. You need to cut her out. It’s going to cost you, but you’ll gain your life back.

Is ass cancer FAIR? No. I wish we lived in a world without ass cancer, Chumpedman. And yet it exists. And so we must swallow bitter pills, shit sandwiches, and Satan’s Koolaid to avoid ass cancer.

Here’s the good news. You have a lovely daughter who needs you. You get to be the sane parent. (Please be the sane parent. The poor kid’s mother sounds like a train wreck.) You have wealth and resources. You can rebuild. When you’re feeling the keen injustice of your situation, drop me a line. I’ll let you read my mail for a week and you can count your blessings. You’re not a stay-at-home-mom who’s been out of the work force for a decade. You don’t have to single parent a special needs child. No one abandoned you while you were pregnant, or broke, or sick. You get to walk away with half your stocks, real estate, income, etc.

It’s not the pain Olympics here and I don’t mean to make light of your betrayal. I know it hurts like a motherfucker and your generosity got you used and abused. But it does no good to focus on the injustice. Every single chump here understands how utterly fucking unfair it is. Sometimes choices suck, and you must slog through the pain and injustice to get to a new life. All we take from infidelity is what we learned from it.

Speaking of which, you have an awesome shrink. Fix that picker in therapy. Did this woman share your values? (She probably pretended to.) But did her actions back that up? Did you feel like you had to rescue her? (Pregnant, no job… doesn’t sound like a match of equals there.) Google “borderline waif.” Just a wild guess. Your shrink can help with that too.

I predict in a few years time that despite the heartache you feel now, you’re going to feel nothing but relief to be away from her. You’ll rebuild for the better and she’ll move on to her next array of chump victims. Only as she ages and her life grows more chaotic, she’ll have less to work with and even with your money, she’ll spiral downward. That’s what these people do. Their eternal punishment is being them.

You’ve got a huge head start on mightiness. Please support your little girl and parent her with sanity and stability. You don’t control the divorce process or what your ex will do. You DO control your own degree of awesome, so try your best to look past the injustice, and focus your attention there. ((Hugs)) and good luck.


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  • Totally get it guy. I also married a total ass who allowed me the opportunity of supporting him while I worked 3 jobs pregnant. He stayed home to take care the the fetus and cheat and spend money. Fast forward….he left our two darling daughters in a hot death trap of a car (3 angel strangers broke them out) and when I filed for divorce I got to cut him a check …

    All I can say is it gets better. And if I am 6 years out and still haven’t moved on, I will absolutely make sure no one takes me for that much money ever again! Next partner is golden!!! And loves me and my kids.

    It really does get better.

    • ChumpedMan, make sure you read all of the comments. Some financially savvy Chumps have great advice for you, especially in documenting the balances of all your accounts just prior to the marriage. Evidently the clock is ticking on how long you can get those amounts. Read and act.

    • See, this is why I advocate revenge cheating in crap situations like this. I am in a similar situation: trying to divorce a cheater in the same no-fault divorce state that Chump Lady herself got screwed with in terms of having it be no-fault. Or should I say, my state is supposed to allow the option of both divorce types, but literally no attorney I’ve consulted with will even let me think of filing fault, let alone discuss it, let alone do it for me even if I pay them to. They just want to take the easy way out…which is not-so-easy for me, since I’m the breadwinner. But unlike OP, I am NOT a millionaire, or even comfortable, or even able to live paycheck to paycheck. I’m lower middle class in high tax city, and each month I fall short several hundred dollars just on bare basic living expenses. My cheater husband makes even less, and has never contributed to his fair share of bills. I will inevitably have an unofficial waiting period even in a no-fault state, simply because I cannot afford a lawyer. When I can (once I someday hopefully finally land a better paying job), trust me I plan to divorce ASAP.

      But in the meantime while I’m basically stuck, why bother staying loyal to a cheater?? Why be even more of a chump? Why not squeeze in a quick “exit affair” or 2 or 3 while planning and consulting on divorce on the sly? Every single lawyer I’ve talked to has said that infidelity has no bearing, that I’m wasting their time even mentioning it. At which point my exasperation has caused me to blurt, “Then why should I stay loyal? In that case, since I’ll be the one financially shafted by this divorce, I should feel entitled to do what I want to do too, which is have my own unfaithful fun, seek ego kibbles, and give him a taste of his own medicine.” Funny how the male lawyers are quick to say “go for it, it wo t make a lick of difference on your settlement, so if that’s what keeps you sane, do it” whereas the females are quick to stutter, “no-no-no-no-no-no, that doesn’t mean you should cheat too” but with no financial facts to back up why I shouldn’t. You might say maybe it’s because the females want me to use morals even if there’s no payoff, acknowledgement, or shiny star sticker whatsoever for exercising morals. Well here’s the thing: I HAVE NO MORALS against casual sex flings OR revenge cheating. Telling me “remember your morals” is one of the most condescending, useless lines that can ever be said to me; they might be YOUR morals, but don’t tell me what mine are. Telling me about my “morals” is analogous to telling a longtime atheist she must go to church and “remember her religion”. I’m not doing anything illegal by cheating, and it won’t even haunt me in divorce court. So tell me, why are some of you including Chump Lady so against “acting out” on the sly when I’m going to be paying dearly regardless in divorce court??

      • A few other things I’ll add about my advantages of revenge cheating:

        1. Why give the cheater the satisfaction of knowing that while he fed me many shit sandwiches, he was still entitled to a faithful woman? He doesn’t deserve the gift of my loyalty.

        2. Without revenge cheating, I am in turn sabotaging my own sex life. In many cases, it makes sense to cease sexual relations with a cheater: because of the risk of STDs, because the idea of “hysterical bonding” or any kind of “pick me dance” is nauseating and degrading to me, or because some cheaters lose all interest in sex with you anyway. In some states where there’s a mandatory wait period, I think the wait clock resets when there’s a return to sexual intimacy? (Is this true?) All good reasons to abstain from sex with your cheater, soon to be ex spouse. But that shouldn’t have to thwart my own sex life. Isn’t being cheated on and then having added insult to injury of a no-fault divorce an unfair punishment enough? Why put me through forced celibacy too?

  • Better looks like :

    My retirement is in tact….and he can’t touch it bc I bought him out during divorce.

    I almost have my car and house paid off.

    My girls are awesome and wonderful tween.

    I love my friends.

    I foster kittens.

    I have a great job.

    Soon I’m going to start volunteering with refugees.

    I love my church,

    I lost 20 pounds since January.

    We chumps are might y….one food in front of the other.

    • “He stayed at home to take care of the fetus” has to be one of the best lines I’ve ever read on CN!
      No matter how much money you lost, no one can ever take a sharp mind like yours. You rock, Lovey Dovey

  • Dear Chumpedman
    You got out alive, a little less money but give it time things will get better. Also sounds like you got the book sooner than I did…. I was too busy reading how to save my marriage and how to deal with narcissists! I was a chump for 35 years!!! I’m taking the years I have left and living them with all the gusto possible and damn it I am happy!… and you will realize when it’s all said and done a loss of cash is nothing compared to the misery you have been living with! Take care of that baby girl…. she will need someone to look up to!

    • Yes … I was a chump for 36 years! Five years of marrigal assests is not alot to divide! Thirty six years ( you lose your youth, your pension, your house, your ability to make money, your ability to remarry, your ability to fix the damage that occcurs with having children With a BPD parent)! Thank god you didn’t havemore kids with her or more years….run and count those blessings!

    • You won’t even realize how miserable you were living with someone like that until you get out and “dry out” from the mindfuck. I hope you have embraced No Contact, the path to the truth and the light. It will help you see her and her manipulating more easily.

      Imagine a world where you wake up happy every day. You enjoy creating or strengthening your business or starting a new one. You plan great stuff to do with your daughter. You get to be you and never have to fit someone else’s description of you again. You fall asleep with a smile on your face and maybe one day you find someone to share that happiness with. It will take some time but you can do it!

      You can make more money. Let he go, heck, push her, and go get yourself a life away from her crazy.

      • AOKibble – ‘Imagine a world where you wake up happy every day.’

        That sounds like Oz!

    • I was a chump for 40 YEARS… starting over at 60 was damn hard, but 2 years in, I’m rocking it because I don’t want to waste what’s left of my previous life sitting around rehashing the 4 decades I spent being loyal to a lying, cheating man with great acting talent but no soul. My 3 sons are grown and building their own families, I manage a successful business, I have plenty of worthwhile passions to pursue, a good supply of awesome friends who love me and going 100% zero contact with my ex (my choice) brought me peace!

      Chumpedman, I know this all sucks and seems so incredibly unfair, but trust me, you got off easy with just a 5-year sentence. Let your STBXW take the low road and stir her own pot of crazy stew. All you have to do is choose to be the best Daddy you can be for your baby girl and strive to rebuild, reinvent, renew and recreate your life! You’ve got this! ?

          • {{{Hugs!!!}}}

            Thanks for the (unintentional!) chuckle as we all ForgeOn!

            PS: Excellent advice to chumpedman (and all of us)

            • That was funny. We’ve all learned that most of us understand autocorrect…and the more you try to fix it, the worse it gets. I think autocorrect is actually tied into a Freud robot to say exactly what you think…unbeknownst to the poster…hehe

      • My inspiration Red Sandals! I was 64 when I discovered I was being chumped, but I have a good job, my sons are on their way.

  • I hate to say it, but I think you were targeted by this woman from the get go. She is a gold digger, pure and simple, she has never seen you as anything more than a gravy train meal ticket. I’m not saying that to make you feel bad, I’m saying that to make you see it’s all on her, not you. You fulfilled the role of what she wanted. Her every move was to get you more involved financially. Pregnancy, marriage, moving to the liberal divorce area. Well played, gold digging whore, well played. Makes me think of an old Bob Seger song, Sunspot Baby. If you don’t know it, look it up and sing it in your mind every time you think if this slut.

      • Maybe he could woo her back…..take all the blame (I don’t blame you for cheating on me- I suck)……..then- have her sign a post nup stating that she leaves the marriage with what she came into with it. Then….POW! Throw her sorry ass out. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

        • If she’s just a gold digger…..which we all know she is, she will never sign this.
          My ex shacked up with schmoopie, and in a conversation about our house refi recently he stated that he needed it to be done so he could buy a house for himself. I told him since he was making a life with her he should just go ahead and do it now and put her on the mortgage with him, thinking they could qualify together ( my MSA gives me till the end of 2018 to get it done). He says she only works a few hours a week and is in school right now. Look up gold digger, her pic is there. He makes the money and helps with HER kids.
          He was like ” uhhh….no. She’s given me 3 years to get married or break up. I may marry her but not without an iron clad prenup that gives her nothing. This house will be for me and if she acts up I can put her out.” All I could think is, how romantic.
          He says he plans to take care of her by willing her everything if he died , but if they divorce she doesn’t get shit.
          So many thoughts:
          1. Thank god im out.
          2. He really cares for nobody but himself.
          3. She’s only after what she can get financially. She’s out of his league physically ( a decade younger but looks kind of cheap) was living off her family till she met him and decided they should be together with his paycheck ( he’s high up on the food chain with the county fire dept and his a healthy pension).
          4. The standoff where he tries to sell a get nothing prenup to a professional gold digger who’s goal is to get everything should be epic. I’m sorry I’ll miss it.

          I was one of the lucky ones who got fucked over and got some stuff for it. I’m sorry this happened to you, but I promise you I would give it all up for the peace I have in my life now that he’s gone.
          Btw….Florida would of fucked you over too. We are a no fault state, my ex could of fucked that whore on my coffee table and it just is what it is when it comes to the money. There is the other side of that injustice coin where you were the one fucked over in a no fault state and you should be able to take that asshole for everything he has and leave him living in a refrigerator box but nope… doesn’t matter.
          You cannot put a price tag on the peace you will find in your new life with your beautiful daughter free of that toxicity…..period.
          Focus on that.

          • As a past avid watcher of the ID channel, one is fortunate to come out of a super gold digger situation with their life. Once you see there is no conscience, RUN!! Don’t stick around for the green antifreeze jello or arsenic soup!

          • “He says he plans to take care of her by willing her everything if he died , but if they divorce she doesn’t get shit.”

            Guess you’ll know who to send the police to interview when he turns up cold and outlined in chalk.

        • Woo her back and move the family and all assets to a fault divorce state…

      • BTDT with the Goldigger. Read Sheri Schreibers “Trapped by Pregnancy”.

        In any case, on to practical matters, I am an attorney , as are quite a few chumps here. I do not do any family law, but perhaps some others do.
        But, as a general proposition, I would counsel you to get another opinion on the asset division and any maintenance obligation.
        Marriage was only 5 years. Wasn’t a substantial potion of your assets in place before that? As I understand it, only those acquired during the marriage are subject to division.
        California is reputed to be very liberal, but I would question whether even in that venue she would qualify for anything more than temporary maintenance . Ten years seems to be the magic number for long term maintenance in many states.
        Presumably, with your wealth, you have consulted a top notch practitioner, but I would get another opinion from a highly respected family law attorney.
        Also struck me that there may be a possibility of filing in a more favorable venue if you left California before filing. Is Florida more favorable? Does the marriage having taken place inFlorida convey jurisdiction if you are a resident there?
        Just a couple thoughtshat I think you should check out.

        • You’re correct re: community property in CA, but it looks as if they acquired that house in CA after marriage. So, let her have the house, give her alimony for the years of marriage (you can take alimony as a tax credit, so full amount from your taxable income and taxable to HER income!!), keep full custody with reasonable visitation.), then as CL stated the cheater can begin her downward spiral.

    • Anita good catch! I don’t think like a slimy gold digger….so I missed your keen observations on the first read! Highly probable that’s exactly what she did. She seems to have known exactly what she was doing….at the expense of his love and commitment toward her.

      If I were the judge….I’d order her into ‘how to be a decent human being” training classes and fine her $50,000 for emotional damages to her husband. Then….I’d make her pay for his counseling to recover from her deceit.

      • Leaving the crap behind, I LOVE that plan. Should be implemented by all courts, every where !!!

    • Spot on Anita! That move from Florida to California was because if a spouse can prove cheating in Florida then the cheater gets NO alimony! Gold digger for sure!

      • Check out some creative way to get Florida jurisdiction. Has anyone filed anything? See another lawyer, for a second opinion. Check with Florida lawyer, too.

    • I agree Anita – a gold digger for sure.

      Chumpedman, I know it hurts like hell to see it this way, but she had a cold, calculated plan. Remember – she told you she was moving to California with or without you. Remember – she SMILED when she told you she had feelings for someone else. Normal people do not treat others (especially their spouses!) this way. She’s a disordered sociopath, and you deserve much better.

      Yes, it sucks that you are losing half your financial worth. What you are not losing is your character, your intelligence, and your business savvy. You will rebuild, and likely more quickly than you can imagine right now. She will take her half and piss it away. Life for chumps and cheaters often turns out that way.

      Make sure you have a kick ass law team who can help you protect your future assets, and consider using some financial assets now to entice her to sign a custody agreement that favours you. Money comes and goes and comes again. Focus your goal on securing a heathy and sane relationship with your daughter.

      Go no contact with the ex – use email and online scheduling for parenting and legal purposes.,That space will help you to look back on your marriage and really see that, while you were all in, she never had any intentions of forever. When this shit storm is over, you are going to be just fine! And she will still be a disordered fuckwit. Stay strong!

      • “Yes, it sucks that you are losing half your financial worth. What you are not losing is your character, your intelligence, and your business savvy. You will rebuild, and likely more quickly than you can imagine right now. She will take her half and piss it away. Life for chumps and cheaters often turns out that way. ”

        EXACTLY this. Times, like, 1000.

        The thing to bear in mind here is that the legal situation regarding divorce and infidelity was insane prior to No Fault. With No Fault, the pendulum swung so far the other way that it’s now, for the most part, also insane. But in defense of the court system in most states, without it they would be overrun with litigation activities, etc.

        So, in this case for the OP, the situation is “fair” from the court standpoint, but certainly does not in any way reflect any normal person’s semblance of justice when it comes to the distribution of financial assets.

        But we cannot take those financial assets with us, as they say. And out life’s measure among the people who really count will not be how we “won” or “lost” financially, but how generous we were with our attention, time, love, authenticity, compassion, and integrity. Chumpedman, you will almost certainly retain those things in your life; your cheating ex has lost pretty much all of them already.

      • I think there are a lot more Gold diggers out there than you would think, in these times, even.

        I am pretty sure my ex’s whore was a gold digger, that may be why I spotted it. She also had a child, butshe had a decent job, received child support, and still “couldn’t support herself” and lived off relatives. She couldn’t have been paying much attention to her child because she was out f****** with my husband all the time. Not to mention the other guys she was probably stringing along and partying every chance she got. But she thought she was Mother of the Year. ( I know this due to mutual acquaintances, ie , former Switzerland friends).

        Ironically, she too almost snagged herself professional (think doctor, lawyer, pilot, etc.) for a husband. She moved herself and the child 2000 miles across the country for this man as his “fiance”, to California, as a matter of fact. He never married her and she returned to my state as an even older, more broken down whore than she left as when he dumped her ass after a few years.

        I don’t think she was particularly interested in my ex, other than a source of kibbles, gifts, and ego boosts. I don’t think he was particularly interested in her as a person, just as a challenge to his studliness, and a way to try to hurt me. She allegedly would not fuck him because she had “such high morals”. You can’t make this s*** up.

        He did also one day (when he was moping about over his loss of her) say she was not interested in him “because I don’t make enough money.” If that’s not a damn golddigger I don’t know what is.

        • Anita, your story resonates with me. Ex and I were married 19 years (together 24) and we partnered with two other couples to build a business. It was successful due to a lot of hard work, some good timing, and a bit of luck.

          Schmoopie (a family friend) saw this and wanted it. Never mind that she was married to a great hardworking guy herself – she didn’t appreciate what she had. Never mind that she didn’t consider all the years of sweat equity WE put in to our company. It didn’t come easily in the early years.

          I once heard this: “Behind every successful man is a good woman. And behind the fall of every successful man…. is usually another woman.” (Obviously, this adage applies to couples where the female partner is the primary income earner, same sex couples, etc. It’s the chump/cheater dynamic that’s important.)

          The decision to cheat is usually accompanied by crappy decisions in money, business, family, and community relationships. And so this is how karma is playing out: I took my half of the assets and walked away. Financially, I know I’m better off than had I stayed. As for ex and Schmoopie? The company is now failing (neither like to work very hard, so things are falling apart), and he is desperately trying to keep up the lifestyle he lured her in with. They have big plans to develop an acreage I like to call ‘the unicorn ranch’. ? Both are oblivious to the fact that they are about to slide into a debt pit, because neither are good money managers. And both have lost the respect of my children, our mutual friends and the community. The OW may have taken my fuckwit husband from me (thank you Schmoopie!) but she will never be able to replicate my life. Because that life was built through good character, morals, and hard work. Cheers to all the chumps that stay the course and rebuild their amazing lives!

          • “The OW may have taken my fuckwit husband from me (thank you Schmoopie!) but she will never be able to replicate my life. Because that life was built through good character, morals, and hard work.”


            • This. OW got cheater X. None of our friends, our family, and great life we had. OW convinced him everything “would be just the same”. OW would just be swapped in as another wife appliance – nope Cheater X. Just nope.

          • // , Your story sounds like where we may hope the author of this letter ends up.

            I wonder if the increased level of cheating, lower rates of children raised in 2 parent households, and increasing levels & varieties of “debt pit” in our country have anything to do with each other.

            I’m glad to read about someone who values, well, values. Culture is not built from nothing.

        • My CheaterX got suckered by a Gold Digger. What’s sad is that pretty much everyone saw her as one.

          Now he’s all sad, and I’m stuck with the ethical dilemma of whether I should remain No Contact or tell him that he’s liable for only 50% of the assets/debts during their 8 month marriage. I suspect she’s trying to fleece him for 50% all the way around.

          I’m leaning No Contact. He made himself Not My Problem when he cheated.

          • Yeah don’t you dare tell him. That’s chump behaviour!! Do you think for one moment he would warn/counsel/advise you if he saw you in a dilemma of some kind?? Highly fecking unlikely. He made his bed…

            I completely understand what you’re feeling though as it happens to me and I have to forceably sit on my hands or staple my lips shut. As decent people we’re programmed to help. But these fuckers have lost the right to that help and we need to keep reminding ourselves. LET HIM FAIL. It’s an element of the karma we all pray for!!!

          • You are so right KB.
            Not. Your. Problem.
            No contact!
            What good is all this pain if he doesn’t learn his lesson? (But who are we kidding? Most cheaters never learn…)

          • He fired you from the job of giving a shit about him kb. Let him figure this out on his own or fail.

          • Same. Everyone see OW as a gold digger. Even told her kids she is “set for life” financially” – her kids told her X husband who I text and talk to occasionally. Cheater X just thinks she is a “nice, simple, girl”. LOL 4 kids three men. Think again Cheater X.

            And NO don’t help him out!

        • and they come in many shades–my X’s gradwhore was trying to sleep her way to the top of the profession (given that she tried to seduce another full professor after the affair with my X ended).

  • Chumpedman….so sorry for this despicable insult to injury. Consider her financial “entitlements”- a payoff for her to get the fuck out of your life- and stay out of your life. People like her….irresponsible, selfish, fucked up- will burn themselves down financially. Those 20 year olds she hangs out with…..will make her their Sugar Mommy. Just make sure you seal the deal… she can’t come back for more. Toss her some money- and tell her to fuck off.

    I’m in the opposite boat…..a 31 year marriage with a cheater/deceiver/liar. I was chumpy enough to put his career before mine- so mine never really evolved. I spent most of my married life taking care of the kids/house and working crappy part time jobs conducive to the childrens’ school schedules. I’m walking away with a pocket full of “chump change” -literally.

    Your POS wife….made out like a bandit. Let us keep our fingers crossed that she will blow the money on her partying and boy toys- and wind up on skid row. When she does….grab full custody of your daughter and slam the door on her face- legally.

    • Married 26 years this week, and my lying, cheater, gas-lighting spouse will walk away financially secure while I will struggle to make ends meet. I’ve got the two old dogs, the last child, the falling apart old home. He’s got the new job in a fun city and no responsibility for anything. He’s hooked up with an old college flame, and lied to me for 2+ years about it (in and out of marriage counseling – “I’m here with you now, aren’t I?”). She left her husband for him – can’t imagine why. I don’t feel sorry for her, but I have to wonder which version of him she thought she was getting.

      I’ve always taken jobs that allow me to meet the kids’ needs & his travel needs, and I’ve always acquiesced to whatever he wanted to do. I should have a chump crown. It’s sad that we’ve ended up here (and that I believed in him so for so long), but I’d much rather be where I am now, than wasting any more time on him. 4 years and 48 days until I will no longer have to deal with him.

      When we talked about visitation, he said it had to be “fair.” Seriously, what about any of this is fair? I’ll be fair, because that’s who I am, and I won’t be playing with the kids like they’re anything but precious to me. I’ll never trust anything he says or does again.

      • FMT it is unfair. It sucks. Much of this resonates, I share the length of time. Career choices around kids, financial disadvantage. I do find it good that the ex is in a different location . They lose a wonderful spouse who had their back. They lose the respect of their children. The karma bus might just catch up with them sometime, for now know that it isn’t just the situation that sucks it is them. With CH may we all mightily move on.

        • Chump nation hugs to you FMT. It is unfair. I did the same thing, built the life. I will never understand what he did to our family, our wonderful adult children are so confused and hurt.

          But you will be ok. And someday the Karma bus will come.

  • Chumpedman, you are correct in assessing your situation as unfair. Someone took your trust, your money, your future plans, and there is nothing you can do about it except make sure she has as little access to you as possible in the future. Because you have a child, you will likely suffer more injustices for at least the next decade, but you can put boundaries on those.

    There may be ways to limit a tiny portion of the financial damage based on the length of your marriage, but it may be healthier to focus on getting out of the relationship and getting the custody agreement you want rather than limiting how much your EX financially profits from her lack of morals. Right now, it is probably impossible not to be overwhelmed by the bitter injustice of what has happened, but the more you can do to assert agency over your future, the faster you are likely to be able to put that injustice into the “lessons learned” category. Where do you want to live moving forward? Where do you want your child to grow up? You may be able to use your EX’s greed to negotiate some aspects of custody.

    There’s no disagreement on this site that current divorce and custody laws stink. The person who manages to negotiate a divorce from a cheater and come out ahead financially is nearly as rare as the successful unicorn reconcilers. Most of us lost a huge percentage of our net worth (whether we had a pittance or a pile to begin with). Most of us pay support or custody (or both) to someone who screwed up our kids’ lives (and ours) or do not receive any support or custody regardless of court agreements or justice or financial need.

    What we tend to have here is morals. Their worth is measured without dollars. I hope you are still feeling pretty rich in that category!

    By the way, the only part of your story that I doubt is your fear that “she will live a wonderful life” on the divorce settlement. Odds are very strong that she will not. And most importantly, it will not be your problem when she screws up her future (again).

    • Eilonwy, I printing this and carrying it in my purse to read every single time I get angry at cheater’s frauds.

    • I agree. Keep your eye on custody as the real prize because the less time the kiddo spends with this woman the better.

  • Dude,

    I hear you. My ex-wife was a serial cheater for most of our 25 years together. Yet I had the privilege of giving her half of everything we’d built, including what I’d made through my successful business (and even half my kids’ homemade Christmas ornaments, for crying out loud!), but paying her tens of thousands of dollars in child support for years afterward. Did she use that money for the kids? Some, but for much of it, no. What did she do with it? She moved Her decade-younger affair partner (well, one of them) into our house (the one I had worked hard myself to restore) and supported their shmoopie cheater household with it. All while my kids lived with the two of them half the time. Until, that is, she bribed the youngest one with tech gadgets, frozen crap food, and lax household standards to move 2,000 miles away from me. To guess where? That’s right, Cali-fucking-fornia.

    So, I get that this isn’t fair. Paying someone who stabbed you in the heart to steal your child is as far from fair as Los Angeles is from Lagos. However, I’m 8+ years out from D-day and life for me is better than ever. An amazing second wife (a Chump, of course) and stepson, rebuilt and improved relationships with my bio kids (now adults and better at seeing their mom for who she is), and a life that is stable, shared, prosperous, and joyful. Given your history of business success, effort, and devotion, I have no doubt a similar future awaits you. either single or, if you fix your picker and *date for character*, re-coupled.

    I predict your STBX will have a path similar to that of my ex. She now lives in a rented HUD repossession in a sketchy suburb working an entry level job and is married to a brooding and bloated known cheater with a family history of mental illness. One of my kids tells me he suspects his mom is cheating on him, too. The explosion of the shmoopie household could come at any time, though I root for it to endure. As CL said, a cheater’s ultimate punishment is living the life she made for herself.

    As they say, The wheels of justice grind slow but exceedingly fine. Your justice is a few years out. Get up and walk toward it. I wish you strength for the journey.

    • What is it with California? My ex blew up our marriage after moving there. So did his OW. I like California well enough, but does it sing the siren song of entitlement to the disordered? As with 19th Century America, does it woo newcomers with tales of streets paved in gold and cake? WTF, California?

      • It isn’t just California. I also live in a no fault divorce state where the law doesn’t care about infidelity. “fair” is making sure that both parties are equally funded and the parent with placement gets a bit extra (Assuming more nights with said parent). We have a republican governor who wants to gut public schools, but he doesn’t care about cheaters walking away with half the chumps assets. My only possible hope is that I can get through mediation quickly before all of STBXs guilt dries up which I fear is starting to happen. He is showing signs of entitlement and “its all about me” again. He has said all along that he wants me to stay in the house with the kids. That will only be possible if the settlement technically comes out lopsided in may favor (although not really as I have to pay mortgage, extremely high property taxes, and upkeep on said house). I don’t think he is really begin generous, he just doesn’t want to deal with the hassles of selling and moving everybody out of a house. I want to stay in the house too as long as we still have dependent kids, but I have made it clear that I will refuse to do so if I feel that I cannot afford it with the settlement I get. That my be my only leverage if the guilt dissipates. Otherwise I will have to figure out how to move within the same school district in a hurry.

        • I am also afraid I might end up owing him maintenance. He used to make three times what I made pulling down some $200,000 per year. I let him leave that job without a fuss when he when he decided it was making him unhappy because I cared about his happiness. Now I make more than he does and that scares me. I just got a raise and my supervisor was surprised when I suggested that I would have preferred if they had waited a few more months.. My only hope there is that me paying him maintenance would be as much of an insult to him as it would be to me. It would hurt his image management as a responsible father to look like a deadbeat who needed maintenance.

          • Try to get tax returns for as far back in your marriage as you can to show the fact that he made more at one time. My XH was out on disability 4 years ago for almost a year so he and his attorney tried hard to use that as reason why he was so broke. They also wanted to use an average including that low wage year to figure the support. I had enough leverage (and proof) to kick those ideas to the curb, but maybe it could work in your favor if it wasn’t that long ago that he took a voluntary wage cut. I’m not sure if you have an attorney or have even started the divorce process…just a suggestion:)

            • We filed jointly and are going through a mediation service. This is the best chance I have of getting a decent settlement without a protracted and likely expensive and fruitless fight. The sooner we can get it done the better, however as the shelf life may be wearing out on his guilt. I fear, however, that the mediators are going to push for the letter of the law because they would not want me to take advantage of his guilt. It isn’t really my intent to take advantage of it either, I just don’t want to be stuck with a house I can’t afford, but nor do I want to move if it can be avoided. He keep saying he wants me and the kids to stay in the house, but I fear he may change his mind when he sees how the income numbers all shake out.

              • Ah, mediation. I tried that one time but XH went a little too much on the offense (started screaming at me in the consultation, “what the tick do you waaaannt!” And then stormed out after I told him everyone is scared of him and something is wrong with him and that he needs help.) I stayed a few minutes at the mediators request (he was scared for my safety.) The mediator told me flat out that I should get the meanest attorney I could find and get ready for a fight because my stbx was not the personality for mediation…
                I’m not saying mediation never works, but I would not be even close to divorce (it was final in January and I filed in August of last year) and probably would be close to the 10 grand it cost me because of the way that guy is USED to treating me. That is what I fear for anyone who is on this site in mediation. The cheaters are used to being able to manipulate you to get what they want.
                I truly hope you get what you need and I hope for a speedy process for you!

              • The letter of the law only applies if you end up in court, which very few divorces do–and even then judges have considerable discretion in many states.

                But what you’re doing right now is mediating a marital settlement, which is a negotiation process that allows for pretty much any arrangement both parties agree to, regardless of what the law says. Don’t let the mediators push you to settle for less than you deserve based on what the law says–it really doesn’t apply at this point (other than in broad, general strokes).

                I also agree with the recommendation to get proof of your STBX’s earning capacity. That is actually one issue that judges do take into consideration in deciding maintenance, not just what each party currently earns, but what the earning capacity of both parties is.

              • Thanks for the advice all. In truth right now I don’t yet truly have reason to believe that he will be unreasonable in the settlement other than the fact that he blew up our marriage in the most painful way possible and has very little if any remorse and he has always been a big spender with selfish tendencies. He also likes to spend money himself on whatever he pleases, but if I want to spend money on something that wasn’t his idea, he has ways of making me feel like I am being irresponsible, and I have always been low maintenance (a trait that he has never appreciated). He also wants to appear to be a good guy, however, and he has faith in his ability to make more money in the future (and I think he is correct in that) and would be offended by the notion that he might need anything from me and/or couldn’t/wouldn’t contribute to the maintenance of his kids. His own vanity may be my savior in this case.

      • Hey now Free Vix– I am in California. It’s not ONLY disordered folks here

        • For every cheater there is a chump! I’m not piling on California (or its many awesome residents), just pointing out the weird allure it seems to have for a lot of cheaters. Maybe it’s a status thing for people who aren’t from CA or the west.

      • It’s a community property state. This STBX gets 1/2 of whatever they acquire in the marriage. So they move to California and buy a million dollar house–she gets 1/2.

        • That’s not exactly how community property works. Depends on the nature of assets used to make the purchase. But at least in wa, all assets, community or separate, are up for a “just and equitable” distribution in divorce. So it could be separate property and it could not matter. (Lawyer here, but this isn’t legal advice. Just comments.)

          • +1000

            Another lawyer here.

            This “she’ll take all MY stuff” is b.s. and this narrative does not help the OP.

            She will take 1/2 of the community property which is, by law, THEIR stuff, not HIS stuff.

            Anything acquired before marriage is not on the table. Anything acquired through inheritance or gift from his family is not on the table. He keeps that. Period.

            I know it sucks to lose 1/2 of what you earned during marriage, but it’s designed this way to protect stay-at-home spouses who used to get totally screwed in divorce.

            If the OPs lawyer is saying “she’ll take YOUR stuff,” then he has the wrong lawyer.

            There is a lot of unhelpful mis-information on this thread. It will not help – and could hurt – OP.

            -Former CA lawyer

            • Yes, that is what I thought, Leagle. Any thoughts on his ability to move and file in the state where they married?

      • Did you know that research suggests the western states have a higher number of people with bipolar disorder? Some speculate the reason for this is because it would have taken a special kind of mania to forge from the east to the west with all the adversity they would have faced at that time!
        Says something I guess!!

  • Also, I bet this slag knows the law better than your own lawyer. These types always do. She kept her mask on for five years, then didn’t give a shit. Is five years some sort of milestone time for marriage in regard to property settlements? It wouldn’t surprise me a bit…

    • Not in California. That’s 10 years.

      But, from what OP writes, he either has the wrong attorney or he is not listening or needs a therapist.

      She cannot take “HIS” stuff. She can only take 1/2 of THEIR stuff. If the attorney did not explain this properly, then OP needs a new lawyer. If OP’s attorney explained this and OP still feels she’s taking HIS stuff, he needs a therapist.

      By law, everything he earned in marriage is “theirs”. As it should be. That’s the fairest to all parties. It protects stay at home parents and those who sacrifice careers to help their spouse (usually women).

      I feel for him, but he’s trying to use the court settlement to get emotional victory. That path only leads to more pain for him.

      And if the judge sees it, he will be in trouble. Judges have very little patience for people who use purse strings to exact revenge in divorces. They have even less patience for peopel who use their children to do so.

  • Mine tried to scare me into staying by pointing out that I would have to pay him alimony. After he cheated, and gaslighted, and led me in the pick me dance. In the end I’m losing my house, my garden I love, but I’m gaining my freedom from mind fuckery. It’ll be worth it in the end.

    • Got to check in here it’s killing me, kicked fucker out four months ago. Nothing to split here. I took on mortgage of house we purchased 2 years ago, he pays child maintenace. No lawyers, can’t afford any.
      No assets or savings, I kept furniture and car in my name, anyways out of the blue I lost my job today, fucking gutted.
      Put my all into that job and since split in December had not taken any time off work.
      To many mistakes according to my boss, despite being a high pressure job in which I do a lot of things right and help a lot of people and get much thanks.
      Boss has had no sympathy for my personnel struggles and frankly I think my dismissal was unfair, no written or verbal warning, no gross misconduct on my part.
      The pressure of my split was affecting my work.
      So suddenly here I am four months out heartbroken and now unemployed with a mortgage and two kids.
      Crying my heart out tonight but know I have to get up and go kick ass tomorrow, no choice.

      • That is awful. I am so sorry. The fact is you are probably better off without the shitty boss too, but that doesn’t help your immediate situation. We’ll be thinking of you and pulling for you here.

      • Lady B,
        I am so sorry for all you are going thru.
        Could you get recommendations from the people who appreciated you and praised you in your work when you fill out job applications?
        You are a pillar of strength to have not missed a day of work thru all your difficult life happenings.
        You are the sane parent. Let the love of your children guide you.
        With the outstanding character you possess you will soon get a good job with a boss who has a true heart.
        YOU are indeed a LADY!
        (As for the cheater what goes around, comes around)

      • Have a good cry today, and come back tomorrow to let us know how we can help you. There are a lot of smart people in CN who know the right questions to ask to get mortgage payments reduced for a period or how to cut corners when necessary.

      • Lady B~ So sorry for what you are going through. The good news is that it’s got to get better. A new job….a better boss…..and good riddance to the worthless loser.

        After d-day…..I was in a state shock-fog. I could not focus very well. My work suffered terribly. I had a small business and it fell by the way side after d-day. More collateral damage from being married to a narcissistic monster.

        I am trying scrape together any/all resources I can find including hocking my wedding rings and the sale of the “webcam hoe couch” (his favorite place to whack off to webcam hoes when I went to bed). My focus is clearing up- and the shock-fog is lifting. I will pick up my boobs- and march on. Like you….I don’t have any other choice.

      • I’m sorry, LadyB. Sometimes the ripple effects hit you just when you think you’ve gained steady footing. Take a day to grieve and lick your wounds; then start to problem solve about other jobs and about getting temporary support to live on. Post in the forums (top R, register & use the Private:General for advice from the most seasoned CL members). Hugs!

  • If you could achieve all what you have, you can do it again! You have greatness within you! You know how it works.
    Let the past behind you and believe the best is yet to come!
    I wish you all the best! Lifecwill reward you with unespected blessings!!! You will see!!!
    Do everything to be happy and to give this to your wonderful daughter!
    You will prosper more and more! Let you heart be pure!

  • I feel your pain, Chumpedman. The same thing happened to me 2 years ago when my wife left me and our daughters for a guy 8 years younger than her, and took with her half of the assets earned in a 30-year medical practice. Maybe a lawyer on this board can explain to me the justice of this “no-fault” idiocy. My wife never would have left her family for the lifestyle of her loser lover, and he would not have left his young family if not for winning the lottery and getting access to half of my life’s work. What a system!

    Here’s the good news – the skills which led to your success you will still have, and you will rebuild. She will eat through her assets and crash. Just 2 years after my divorce my ex is reduced to living off of an IRA (paying 50% tax + early-withdrawal penalty for each withdrawal), having pissed away the rest of a lot of money trying to buy her lover’s affection. While I have considerably less than I had 3 years ago, I am fine compared to others who post here (as you will be). Also I am able to save more without a spouse pissing money away, and could conceivably get to the worth I once had in a few years. (It sounds like you are even younger than me and this will be easier for you.) Plus my kids know who was at fault and I have their respect. Likewise from my friends.You will be glad this happened some day.

    PS – Get a good lawyer to help tease out premarital and any inherited assets, and try to minimize if not eliminate alimony if you have documented proof of her infidelity.

    • HappenedToMe,
      “Maybe a lawyer on this board can explain to me the justice of this “no-fault” idiocy” has been explained to me by my lawyers as due to the laws being tailored to legistaltors’/politicians’ interests. At least in my country this explains everything.

      • ClearWaters,

        Yes you are right. As my lawyer explained to me with a chuckle, lawyers prefer no-fault as “there are plenty of billable hours in property division”. It’s very ironic that a profession which tries to find fault where none exists in many areas, suddenly takes a “no fault” attitude for the entire field of family law. And as somebody posted, why would judges have an aversion to judging?

      • “No fault” is no doubt defined differently by the different states operating under this cop-out approach to divorce. I live in Michigan, which is also a no-fault state. However, in Michigan that means you do not have to prove anything to be granted a divorce – as long as one spouse no longer wants to be married, a divorce is granted. However, judges have latitude in their consideration of the division of assets and granting of spousal support based upon a multitude of factors including bad behavior, cheating, dissipation of marital assets, etc.

        Please consult with a kickass attorney ASAP! You may very well be able to limit that whore’s financial gain.

    • If I recall from Political Science classes- no fault divorce was created by the Russians in the Soviet Union. Not a group of folks that I would want to borrow ideas from.

    • Prior to no-fault divorce, there was an entire industry devoted to providing evidence and testimony to “prove” infidelity or other behaviors that would allow a divorce to be granted. As much as I agree that our current system is full of injustices, I can only begin to imagine the lengths so many of our disordered cheaters would go to in order to prove their innocence and/or pay for false evidence against us. One of the reasons why the old system was abandoned was because the courts were so bogged down and it was widely known and accepted that perjury and falsification of evidence was rampant.

  • There is never anything “fair” when a chump is tangled up with a POS liar/cheater/deceiver. That’s the way….liars/cheaters/deceivers like it.

  • Chumps need to research which states penalize adultery. Then move there- and file for divorce. Wish I would have known this before I filed for divorce in a “no fault state.”

    Cheating cheeseheads better be rich. Those caught may need to cough up a whopping $10,000. Oh, and the possible three years behind bars doesn’t sound fun, either.

    The law for adultery in Minnesota is just as cold as the state itself. If you’re caught cheating, you can be fined up to $3,000 and imprisoned for as long as a year.

    • Where did you find this information? Are you sure it is up to date?

      • I checked it out. These laws are on the books, but you need irrefutable proof and the courts could still decide not to prosecute if they don’t feel like it, so not much leverage there. Also, sending their Dad to prison and making him pay a lot of money really wouldn’t benefit the kids much when kids are involved.

    • This must be an old law on the books. I divorced less than two years ago, and was told it was no-fault and that the courts didn’t care about the adultery. The reason for the divorce that is listed on my divorce decree is therefore irreconcilable differences. It made me mad at the time, but now I see it’s true. Nothing could make me reconcile with that cheater, and my values are light years away from his.

    • That wouldn’t help. It’s still a CA divorce with California property.

      If he tried to do this, all he’s going to do is piss off the judge and demonstrate he’s trying to use money to get revenge.

      Hint: Judges really, really don’t like that.

    • Wisconsin is a no-fault community property state with an old adultery statute that hasn’t been enforced in decades.

  • For what it’s worth? Even in states that DO have fault divorce – with infidelity as a charge? They STILL will split shit down the middle.

    When I went to a divorce clinic (mandatory) at the courthouse, the attorney giving the seminar said, “How many of you are here for cheating? Well, get over it (she said in so many words), because we don’t care who slept with who. In the end, we will still split the assets, and alimony/child support will be paid”.

    The seminar was VERY clear that they did NOT want trials. I do not know how blatant evidence of cheating influences settlement outcomes, but, I know one guy in town who caught his wife cheating, and, he is paying her alimony.

    • Pretty awful onthehill! Maybe it’s time that “We the People” do something to change these mindless laws. Cheat on your spouse- pay out the kazoo and shut up about it. It’s the least these monsters can do.

      • Problem is, all the law makers are cheaters. (Not ALL, but really). I would say whether democrat or republican, we all share love of being governed by cheaters. Sorry for those of you who are in politics right now who are pure and faithful. You actually might be in the list for sainthood because I can’t imagine having coworkers like you do. Rant over. sorry I live in Alabama and am bitter.

    • Yes. I feel for you Chumpedman, but like many here I’ve lived the consequences of the no-fault culture. My lawyer, who I’m so thankful for and who did an amazing job enduring the year plus of proceedings on what should have been a pretty simple divorce, gave me real talk when I first came into her office. Unfortunately–and yes, let’s freaking acknowledge that it’s entirely unfortunate–it doesn’t matter that my ex-husband was unemployed for the majority of our marriage (also about 5 years), that he did zero things around the house and pissed away money so that it was like herding cats for me to keep our bills paid on my own, that he cheated and actively chose to move out instead of stop seeing his girlfriend, or that he had zero interest in our toddler to the point where she barely knew him and screamed for hours whenever left alone with him as required by visitation. He still got half the assets, and as much time as he wants with the child (thank goodness he didn’t want, nor ask for, anything remotely approaching half-time). The only thing courts care about even a little bit, at least where I live, is when there is clear, provable physical harm done to a child. She was right, and I’m glad I chose to trust her, because I saw this play out badly for others going through divorces who put their hopes in the courts actually caring about common-sense who’s-at-fault reasoning.

      I knew nothing about how divorce works before this happened to me, so it definitely sucked to hear this, but I was able to choke it down okay once I knew the deal and knew what kind of a field I was playing on. The hardest part was having to repeat this and constantly be “convincing” family members and other concerned people about how it works. My parents, so supportive and well-meaning, brought this pain up over and over again for me as they were aghast for two years about how in the WORLD he was “getting away with” it all. No matter how much I explained to them how it works, they were like “But. You’re the only one who’s been working all these years, and the only one taking care of the baby, and the only one not a belligerent drunk driver. Ask anybody who knows you. HOW is he getting any time with the child? HOW are they making you give him half the money?” So if your family and friends are asking these questions too, I’m with you man, and the best advice I have is to just be patient and acknowledge that it is indeed ridiculous, and cite the law and any articles you can, when necessary. It sucks being made to feel like you’re not “trying” hard enough with the lawyers or in court, when your lawyer is just giving you the best, most pragmatic chance possible given the “we don’t want to judge, even though that’s literally our only job” bullshit attitude of the family courts system.

      My lawyer also told me that even if you can unequivocally prove adultery, judges are *still* making people split things 50/50, plus then you have to pay the costs of a trial. So it’s not even worth it. She had a friend whose client had video surveillance footage of the cheater going into the AP’s apartment building at like 9pm, and leaving at like 5am. The judge was like “Well we don’t know what they were doing in there.” Come on man. If they’re unwilling to assign fault when the proof is that blatant, it’s best to cut our losses here.

      But yes, like everyone else says: Today is a turning point, because this is the day you acknowledge that this no-fault crap is very, very wrong. And write / type it all down, everything you’re feeling…make a bulleted list of everything she’s “contributed” to the “assets,” and everything you have…just to see it in front of your own face, and know what the real deal is. Then you put it aside, file it away, and get started on building steadily (through hard work and dependability, concepts foreign to your ex) a future for you and your daughter. CL is right: you are the sane parent, and you’ve got this. Many people with way less resources and smarts than you have gotten through this; you’re going to do it and do it well. Good luck! And check in with us as it progresses, please!

      • Excellent post. I especially like your point about how hard it can be to convince people that the system is so crappy. I swear, my mother still thinks that if I would have just explained it all in clear and concise language to the judge, he’d have understood that the EX deserved no assets and given him a stern rebuke to boot. Alas, divorce and custody law bears no relation to her vision of of it.

      • This really struck a chord with me too. My parents are very supportive but it is sometimes very tiring having to explain to, particularly my mother, that this is just the way things are – what is morally fair and legally so are very different. The reality is that, whatever the former, we have to live with the latter. You have to make peace with that and having people question it doesn’t help. I guess this is part of public perception, that there is a degree of fairness/accountability – as there is also a public perception (at least in the country I live in) that the courts are skewed towards favouring women. In fact, good research shows that is definitely not so – women are, at least on average, financially disadvantaged much more greatly than men and for much longer. Clearly not the case for Chumpedman but the reality for many. Coming to terms with all of this is about letting go of being right/fair and embracing being free. I try to remind myself that there are people who live with so much greater injustices all the time – you don’t have to look far on the news to see this. Like everyone says here, too, I am sure time will help.

    • Courts do NOT exist for your emotional vindication.

      All they care about is equitable division of assets and debts and what’s best for the children and pets. Period.

      If you go in trying to get emotional satisfaction, you won’t. And you’ll be worse off if you let the judge see that’s what you are there for.

      • I referenced the infidelity a bit in court and was rebuked by the magistrate on the record. But, during a break, he nodded at me and winked. Come to find he did not award any back support and limited the maintenance to 18 months. No attorney fees for her either.
        So, do not be so sure that making a judge award of it will not pay any dividends. I made sure to apologize on the record and act humble. Plus, I could tell this judge did not like the ex, based on her get up in court and the fact that my lawyer did reference the infidelity in some pleadings citing some dissipation of assets. SO, he was aware of things and I think it helped.

      • I get that the courts don’t want to get into details about the bedroom, but doesn’t decades of deceit have any play? If we were business partners, I could sue. I made financial and career decisions based on false information.

        I outearned him significantly during the first 10 years of our marriage. Paid for the down on the house, the $80k college fund when daughter was 3 weeks old, etc.

        I’ve been out of the workforce for over 15 years and I worked in technology. (No changes in that field – ha!)

        My issue is with alimony. He finally is making significant money. I meet all the 4320 issues (minus documented domestic abuse) And even though the law states that the judge can’t rely on temp guideline amounts, the lawyers say they rarely go at or above guideline.

        How is that equitable?

    • Even more reason to cheat. I’ve found firsthand from experience that cheating on a cheater has actually been helpful because it helps me “get over it” somewhat, or enough that I won’t go literally insane and dwell on it in court, which apparently would make me look bad when the judge has no patience, time, or care to hear about cheating. Times when I didn’t? My self esteem plummeted and i landed in a deep depression that adversely affected my job performance, outside people’s perception of my sanity level, and how well I could pick up the pieces and move on.

  • I was thinking about this the other day…

    We have Chumpladies here, who I guess are trying to get what they deserve from their cheaters in terms of financial support and fairness, yet their cheaters argue over every penny, refuse to pay a fair amount of support.

    We have Chumpgentlemen who were cheated on and pay a fair amount of child support, yet their cheaters just seem to piss that money away on bags, shoes, vacations, botox…

    They all just suck, selfish, entitled fuckwits.

    • Careful with the genders, Mickey! 🙂 I’m a chumplady and a doctor, so my cheater (male) is the one benefitting from my education and hardwork! We had no kids, so I rushed our dissolution to trial ASAP (47 days between Dday & divorce hearing) to try to prevent his greed from kicking in, taking advantage of his need for impression-management and to remain the “nice guy” in the whole shitshow: “No, I don’t want anything. I just want out.” Okay, buddy, here’s your wish: no dollars for you. — The day before the hearing he called and asked for money, so I paid him not an insubstantial amount of money just to shut him the fuck up. Is it fair? No. Is it fair he gets to keep the business I bought for him, where he met and fell in “twu wuv” with OW? No. But it spares me spending the rest of my life with him continuing to bleed me dry.

      The courts don’t want the emotional shit, CM, they just want you in & out of their courtroom as quickly as possible.

      No disagreement with the “selfish, entitled fuckwits” comment, though! 😉

    • CL should start a “chump dating site” where we all could meet other chumps;)
      How did we all end up with these crazies?!?!?!

  • Chumpedman,

    Much good advice above. Get a good lawyer. Document everything – her outings, her lack of shame, how she declared she was moving to Cali, and you could come with if you wanted, etc.

    Finally, remember that you need to take a long view. How will what I do now affect me five years from now, ten years, twenty years. She did that (get knocked up, marry, move to a no-fault state,) and you have to too. Ten years from now you’ll be way better off without her. Twenty years from now, child support will be done, and alimony may have ended too. No matter how you slice it, though, you’ll still have a moral center, and she’ll still be looking for (or be with) someone else solely to support the lifestyle she wants.

    Hugs. Strength. Peace.

    • I really think she is not entitled to Alimony…. you have to be married over 25years to get it!

      • Gail – true to a degree on Alimony and I’m sure every state is different. I believe Oregon bases Alimony on how many years together. In my case, married 35 years = alimony for life. 🙂 . Just means he’ll have to work the rest of his life just to pay me. ha! Hey, I deserve it. He deserves it.

        • Also, there may be a good chance that ChumpedMan may pay limited alimony bc he’s only been married 5 yrs. That’s not even the 7 year mark, which changes it, as does 20, 25, 30, 35 yrs, etc.

        • When you say rest of life, don’t you mean until retirement? 65 years of age?

          • I was married 36 years and was divorced at age 56! He had to pay $500.00 alimony per month until he retired! He made 120,000 a year! I was a stay at home mom! He retired in 1.5 years! Thats how wonderful NYS is to thier family oriented citizens! He also claimed it on taxes and taxed me on it! Alimony is a joke! PS He did hate writing that check though made home retire fast?????

          • Yes, alimony until I die, or he dies – and then his life insurance kicks in.

    • In California, her affair is not relevant to any part of the divorce proceedings or child custody. Period. Documenting it, bringing it up, etc., will only hurt OPs case.

      There’s no alimony.

      WRT to property, the only fight there is will be what property is community and what is separate. Otherwise, the judge will award separate property to it’s owner and divide community property almost 50/50.

      WRT to the house, wife may get to live in it for a while, but she won’t get to own it long term unless she gives OP some other asset of equal value.

      It used to be judges gave the house to the custodian parent. Given that shared custody is now the norm, she will, at most, get to live there until the kid turns 18, then have to sell the house and give 1/2 to OP.

      He’s being all emotional about this now, but a lot of people’s fears about what she will get won’t happen.

      • Good advice, Leagle. I think I just got the right referee, and will defer to your knowledge re CA. But, Minnesota is just about as liberal/no fault as it comes and I know I caught a break divulging the info, in an aside and in a pretty respectful way.

        • Spousal Support = Alimony. It has taken over the word Alimony. 😉 . Alimony is no longer a legal term. Thanks for the reminder.

      • Leagle,

        I was discussing deferred sale of our house with my attorney (our daughter is 14) and atty told me if we do that that I will have to pay all the selling costs.

        That doesn’t sound right. That must be a demand made by stbx. There’s no law saying the person staying in the house has to pay all of the selling fees!

        STBX wants money either from sale of the house or I buy him out (which I’m trying to do somehow) because he has expensive lifestyle to maintain as he is trying to hold onto a 24 y.o.

        • FindingPeace – my best tool was bluffing the ass and his attorney.
          He would make an outrageous request like ‘you having to pay all the closing costs’.
          Hell no to that little ‘extra’. Or, he gets to write-your alimony of child care off on taxes. Nope on that one too. This is during the negotiation phase.

          Then, either you argue it, costing him more of his expensive lawyer, or he settles because he doesn’t want to research and fight me on a little chunk.

          Reject and BLUFF on everything. I found it actually got things done quickly and I sure didn’t wget everything I wanted. But, the whole point is shoot for everything and assume it will come to 1/2, more or less. Please do not skim the divorce settlement!

  • Chumpedman, hopefully this goes without saying, but please be sure to use protection in any future sexual encounters with anyone. Forever. Unfortunately, men can get hit with unwanted paternity at any age , unlike women who age out of parenthood due to menopause.

    • Yes, don’t get spermjacked ! Ah the new words I wish I hadn’t learned…the Manipulators Merriam Webster

      • Ughhhh, that’s nasty, sucker punched. Action and named. Today I found there are entire websites devoted to trapping folks into marriage by pregnancy. Ughhhh. Seriously???

  • My cheater died, so no commonality there..

    2 years ago I married a divorced man whose XW pulled a stunt similar to what your STBX did although it seems she had the decency to wait until she moved out to date. She was a SAHM and wanted my nowH to fund her non-working for 16 years until their D was an adult.

    He paid and paid…his family paid her $90,000 to get her out of the family Trust. H paid every dime of private school and she has tried to disinvite us from the upcoming graduation.

    She has rewritten history and Godonlyknows what narrative the folks in her small town have been told about (we knew each other in childhood but didnt start dating until they had been divorced for 12 years and my husband was dead).

    So the shit sandwich buffet lives, but the good part is that my H isn’t married to that mean selfish women, he gets to grow old with my awesome self – even if we are at the age that we take each other to our colonoscopies (LOVED CL’s analogy…a horrible spouse is like ass cancer…the prep stuff make me puke too).

    For me there is pain in that I am the subsequent wife to a golddigger. I am hard working and have never taken a dime from anyone in my life but I will forever be judged based on wife #1. I will inherit nothing from my family, my dead husbands family or my new husbands family. New husband has provided me with an annuity if he predeceases me (decent and generous of him) but I am not considered part of the “family” financially, Im a family member in name only. I exist in a nomansland of financial isolation because someone else did a bad thing. I feel bad when I think of it so I try not to. I have enough money to do OK, but I hate feeling like an outcast.

    • Unicornnomore, huge hugs. I hope you can resolve these feelings somehow. It sounds very painful.

    • All this colonoscopy talk is terrifying me. I will be kicked off insurance soon (so lovely to be cheated on and then lose health insurance because I gave up my career for my family), so I am trying to get all the testing done that is allowed. My colonoscopy is in a few weeks, and I had no idea vomiting was a possibility!! I was already worried that I wouldn’t be able to drink the liquid (I hate drinking things if I am not thirsty, and if the taste is bad, I will have a terrible time getting it down), but the possibility of vomit just took this nightmare to a whole new level.

      Sorry for the hijack. Rant over (but not the dread!!).

  • First off, so sorry this happened to you. It’s a mindfuck and totally horrible. But, CL is right like always. Their punishment is being them. She is getting some of your money, but she will run through it…FAST. Also, if you think she may be an unfit mother, start documenting. You may be able to get custody. Lastly, go grey rock. It will save your sanity and help you be the sane parent. You will get through this!

  • Nobody wins in divorce but the lawyers. My Stbx was mad at my lawyer choice but I know if I had gone with a less aggressive lawyer, the difference in fees would go to cheater not me so if the lawyer makes out, it’s better than cheater.

    Gold diggers are easier to spot outside the fishbowl. The other night 17 year old was relaying the story of how cheater was defending my in laws for hosting his married home wrecking whore. He told my son that she is warm and loving and that is the kind of people fil wants to be around as he dies of als.

    My 12 year old immediately pipes in with doesn’t dad see that she is a gold digger so of course she is warm and loving? (Warm and loving= fuck another married person the first night you meet drunk at a bar)

    He is buying slut puppet’s excuses that her Stbx is hiding all the money they have off shore while I think they have no money. He thinks I should feel sorry for schnoopie and HER situation and be grateful that he is such a generous cheater- disordered! Wtf! ? I just hope lawyer can get me my 50%. The kids will lose out. He is paying nothing for them right now- and at 18 everything ends. If you have to give healthcare until 26, he ought to have to help with their support til 26.

    • Check with your lawyer: in my state the court can order college and insurance coverage obligations at the proportional percentages up to age 23.

      • Will do- hadn’t heard that. I might be able to negotiate it. The waiting game is hard. Cheater has 30 days to respond to the complaint and time is crawling. That is with filing for an emergency hearing for support. I am fortunate to have enough to survive for several months but that is due to the fact that I was always quite frugal because of my upbringing. Meanwhile narc is spending like there is no tomorrow and I wonder if there will be anything left to get half of. He doesn’t care because he is anticipating mommy and daddy’s inheritance.

        My dad used to always say that he wanted to stay out of our business because he thought my mom’s parents were too close. Now I realize my mom was narcisisstic and I married my mom in some ways. if only I understood then..,

        Lesson learned, make sure your partner has left home … husbands parents gave him everything he wanted and still are.

  • I think Chumpedman was actually “doomed ” with this woman when she became pregnant, because at that point she had him financially for 18 years. Marriage may or may not have been part of the original plan, and was probably icing on the cake. I know of so many women who have ran this particular scam, children are just meal tickets to them , especially if they can have a child with a successful man. I hope you got a paternity test, CM, cause this level of whoring doesn’t just manifest itself, it’s been there all along.

    • At this point, a paternity test would be irrelevant in the eyes of the courts. They were married and he’s the only father this child has ever known.

      • I don’t necessarily know what’s relevant in the eyes of the court. I do think anyone who has been cheated on deserves knowing the paternity of their child, if for nothing else if she is not Chumpedman’s child he will be certain she has been a fraud all along. I don’t see that it would be harmful to him and could be helpful. It would not be the first time someone has lied about a pregnancy to get money from a man.

        • Actually, he said they were married after the child was born. If he married her because he thought the daughter was his child, and she is not, that is fraud. Chumpedman didn’t say if he adopted the child or not , but there are two issues here anyway. Child support. Spousal support. And also division of property.

          I’m not a lawyer but I think the more knowledge you have in this situation, the better off you are. And if the ex was playing CM from the start it’s highly possible there was a fuck buddy involved all along. There almost always is.

          • Depending upon the state, getting the test without permission of BOTH parents or a court order would be a major problem.

            He needs to follow the advice of his lawyer. Not random people on the internet.

            • Leagle, I’m not suggesting anyone take random advice from strangers on the internet. That includes me. That includes you.

              If this woman has said he was the father of his child before they were married but he has reason to think she’s a liar, which he should based on her marital behavior, he is within his rights to bring it up to his lawyer. It’s not an invasive test, so I don’t know what permission is required but I think it’s reasonable to question it. I think it’s a relatively common test.

              • As long as they are still technically married, I suspect either parent could request the paternity test. Once the papers are filed, things become more complicated.

              • Again, at this point, it doesn’t matter in most states. He’s legally the child’s father and has acted in that capacity for at least 4 years. No court is going to get him out of his paternity responsibilities because it’s not considered in the best interests of the child.

              • I never said he should try to get out of his paternity. I said there is a good possibility that the child is not his, biologically. It is a simple matter to order a DNA test, and he will know for sure. It doesn’t have to be court ordered. It’s not invasive. If it were me I would want to know.

                With a cheater this manipulative, I would not be surprised is this becomes an issue in the future. If he is not the bio father, trust me, other people know and it will come out one day. Probably in a not very nice way.

                But guess what, it’s not my decision or yours. It’s just my thoughts, and they do have a basis in experience.

  • It stinks Chumpedman, it really stinks. And there’s no sugarcoating it. My ex got our entire savings account that she never contributed to (plus the money she was hiding on the side while I was paying the bills), all of our nicest furniture and other personal property, and a monthly child support check (even though we have joint custody). I got her student loans and a half empty house. But mainly, I also got back my mental health and sanity – and nobody can put a price on that. So in the end, I’m still happy and positive and I wouldn’t change a thing. Just try not to dwell on the unfairness of it all, it’ll drive you nuts.

    Also, an aside: financial infidelity almost always walks hand in hand with marriage infidelity – so while your wife isn’t working, she may be stashing away cash she is taking from your joint accounts on the side. So watch out for that.

    Good luck.

  • Dear Chumpedman

    I live in a no-fault country. If my cheater did to any other citizen what he did to me and my savings, I could sue him for fraud and since I am over 65 he would go to jail. But since I was his wife, this is part of “love” and “no one is obliged to love anyone by law”.

    My lawyers at least managed to rid me of the obligation to pay half of cheater’s debts (made for his AP), but I will have to split part of my father’s inheritance with cheater even though he was cheating on me before my father died.

    And speaking of my father, your story reminds me of his, this is what you managed to dodge: the end of his life was very sad for his many episodes of chumpiness. I cry every day for him. My mother was a beautiful, charming, witty, smart and seductive woman. She thought my dad was from a wealthy Latin American family and had these visions of maids making her bed, serving her coffee on a silver tray and starching her linen dresses; she was 17 when she tricked my dad into marrying her because she was supposedly pregnant (she preyed on my dad’s fear of his very religious family). My dad was an engineer and in pre-computer days he used a slide ruler to synchronize national substations with the generators of what was then the world’s largest power plant. But he could not count to 9; I was born 11 months after my mother’s trick. Six years after I was born, my mother bears a girl who is definitely not my dad’s. In spite of his nagging doubts he raised her and cared for her. He always thought it was weird that soon after this sister was born my mother agreed, without a peep, to move from the USA to a remote area of Latin America (think lots of poverty and diseases, dirt roads, no telephone, TV dinners or TV). My dad gave his family a good, honest and interesting life in LA. My mother calmed down for a while (life was good for her) and then she made my dad retire, close a successful business and move far from his family, friends and decades of references. My dad became tragically depressed, but he was mentally alert and aware of what was going on. My mother started a campaign to get my father declared mentally incompetent in order to raise his life insurance to pay for debts she had made. The judge listened to me and did not declare him incompetent, but dad just gave up and died a sad and broken man.

    Please listen do CL. I envy you; your double-whopper Shit Sandwich is far less seasoned with unfairness than mine. I’m 65 and female and had 39 years of marriage. I don’t have much time or many resources to rebuild my life. But I will manage. Far better to be cheater-free.

  • ChumpedMan, focus on getting the best outcome in terms of child custody and visitation for your child, even if you have to pay out the ass up front. Even though you’re losing a lot of money, if you’re industrious, smart and hard-working you can always make more.

    The same cannot be said for your wife. She’s hard-partying, free-wheeling lazy ass. Those young guys she’s rolling with probably don’t have a pot to piss in, and they’re going to leech off of her.

    Your marriage is like the fable of the goose with the golden eggs. If your wife had been smart, she could’ve nurtured your marriage and reaped a lifetime of benefits and happiness. But instead she killed the goose in order to cut it open and get a dozen all at once. Once that gold runs out, she’s going to be in for a rude awakening.

  • Oh boy, do I relate to this story. Married for almost 15 years, pretty sure I was cheated on the whole time. When I finally figured it all out and divorced him it cost me a fortune. Florida is also a no fault state so moving to CA didn’t do you any more damage than living in Florida would. My ex got lazier and lazier thru our marriage, I supported his ridiculous hobbies (like motorcycle racing) and he barely worked because apparently he needed his free time while I was at work every day to meet up with his various girlfriends. I too have (had) net worth in millions and he got a huge settlement PLUS alimony. Here’s the kicker, shortly after we divorced he killed himself, so now all the money I paid him gets to go to his loser family! The pill is a bitter one to swallow.

    The good news is, smart people like us will make more money and in the long run still have financial security and amazing lives. I’m starting to enjoy my life again and even enjoy spending money on myself. I always shied away from spending on myself, because when I would evil cheater would always demand he too get to spend same amount “ohhhh so you spent $200 on a pair of shoes, I assume I can get something too!”! He took the joy out of everything. You are better off, it may not feel that way but consider the money the price you have to pay for freedom. The longer you stay married to this waste of human life, the more it will cost you. You’ll get thru it! Hugs!

    • But California is a community property state; he would get a better chance at saving what he had prior to marriage in Florida.

      • True. Sorry bout that, was just pointing out in Fla it doesn’t matter what heinous things you do in regards to settlement. 50/50 split of marital assets regardless of who earned the money, and don’t get me started on alimony. ?

        • Leagle who practices in CA has already commented on this. pre-marital assets and inheritances are not subject to division, although I seem to recall that co-mingling inheritance may pose some problem.

      • Community property, yes, but CA still recognizes separate property that a spouse brings into the marriage. If Chumpedman had significant assets before the marriage, those may be protected. That million dollar house he bought when they moved here is likely toast, though.

        • Okay…she gets half of the million dollar house. Check.
          She gets Alimony for a few years at most, not indefinitely, because it was only a five year marriage, not fifty years. Check.
          She gets child support until child reaches a certain age. Check.
          She gets a prorated share of the value of the business representing the five years of marital time. Check.

          He gets half the value of the house too.

          He gets to stop paying alimony in a matter of a year or two.

          He continues to pay child support…but it IS his child and he would not want to see her go without simply to penalize the mom. Even if paternity was found to be from another man, he’d STILL be stuck paying the child support because HE MARRIED this woman. He can think of this as “sponsoring” a child who loves him as being her own father nevertheless.

          He does not have to worry about her getting any more of the value of the business in the future once he pays off “her share” for the five years they were married.

          This is all temporary…unfair, but temporary. He can and will do it. He gets freedom to start over. Priceless.

          • In NY Alimony is toast… unless you were married over 25 years and even then you will be expected to find a job! PS if you don’t pay Alimony … it’s not child support … it’s up to your spouse to file a law suit and she will have to get a lawyer to chase you for it! Tooo expensive…the lawyer will profit!

        • Leagle says he will get the equity out when the kid is 18 and she has to sell the house. Not sure if the appreciation goes half to him, but it would seem to make sense.

  • My heart goes out to all the chumps who get hosed in the legal system, but look to the future and imagine what it would be like if you tried to keep your money and live with the cheating spouse. Age takes its toll on cheaters in warp speed. I say this because I am watching my cheater die as I write this. Is Schmoopie poops here to do the heavy lifting? Hell No! She is long gone (with the exception of trying to sue him for money she spent on him during the affair!). I guess what I’m trying to say is, Look at the bigger picture. You don’t have to take care of the cheater in old age or sickness. Let thier “love interest” get that thankless job. I can almost guarantee the Schmoopie will be long gone! They will be broke and alone. We chumps, however, have the resilience and character to build better lives. We haven’t risked our health and well being sleeping with losers trying to find “twu wuv” and happiness every other month between sheets at the local hotel. In the meantime they are burning through the money they get at every turn and generally end up broke and alone always seeking out the next best thing! We, on the other hand, use our mighty skills to build a solid and happy future. Even if that doesn’t include a fortune, we still live a no drama life and that is priceless. There is a movie called “A Bronx Tale”. The kid in this movie has loaned his friend twenty dollars and every time he sees him on the street he chases the guy down for his twenty dollars. The “deadbeat friend” always has an excuse as to why he is unable to even discuss paying back the loan and the kid wants to beat it out of him. But his gangster mentor gives him some good advice. He tells him to let it go. Yes, he “lost” twenty bucks, but the loser was never a trusted friend and will avoid him forever. He actually got off cheap because he’ll never have to deal with the loser again! Makes sense to me. Hope it makes sense to chumpnation and someone can use that to look at thier situation differently. Money is just money. It cannot buy real love, happiness or peace. It cannot buy character or morals. Look at it as a “payment” to keep the loser at bay!

    • ‘we still live a no drama life and that is priceless’
      Amen, Roberta, amen.
      That’s where my focus is, now, and for the next few years, until I feel healed! Lots of self-love, nature, smiles and laughter, music, peace, and stability. We will get there, because we’re no longer being tormented daily by a Fuckwit!

      And for people who think there is some unique allure of CA, I think maybe it’s in the cheater’s heads, and we know how reasonable they always are ?! I live here, and there are some flakey people, but aren’t they everywhere? I grew up here, and I’m so glad I finally got to come back, because it’s gorgeous beyond words, and makes me feel at peace. Nothing like hiking in a Redwood forest to elevate your soul!
      Wishing the same for all you beautiful Chumps!

        • No, but I just looked it up! On the way to Yosemite!
          I live near the Monterey bay.
          One of these days, I’d like to get off my butt and go meet up with you all! Kidding, I’m impossibly busy, getting my house ready for sale, but someday soon.

          • I love that area. One of my daughters and I drove up PCH through Big Sur to visit a friend in Santa Cruz this winter. Played golf in seaside and in Monterey. Expensive to live there I would imagine, no?

            • Yes, it is quite pricey. Too bad, but I looked til I found a fixer, and got it at an ok price. Plus, I literally make twice here to what I made in Utah, pay can be pretty high!

        • Raised my kids in Calaveras County! Beautiful Gold Country, old stomping grounds. ?

      • Yeah – CA is just a really big state with a lot of people. It’s sort of like saying “everyone in Canada is cheating gold digger.” I will also second the difference between community property and no fault.

        I personally found filing in CA really easy, once I embraced the fact that my one an only goal was to GTFO. My brother, who is very pragmatic, but kind, said to me “it’s going to suck a lot, and it’s probably going to cost you some money, but in the end you will be fine.” My lawyer said “Your goal is to get out of this thing as fast as possible.” Once you sort of let go of tying the monetary stuff to some sort of retribution, it’s really easy. 50/50 split of assets acquired during the marriage… so find your documents, and do the math and that’s the answer. Once you accept that letting some of that money go is just going to happen, and the cheater is not going to have to “pay” in the form of finances, you move on.

        In this case sure, he needs to negotiate a little… go in low with a little room to go up on the spousal. Be aggressive with the custody because that’s what’s good for the kiddo… but move beyond trying to “punish” the cheater. They don’t care, it won’t work… best to move on.

    • Roberta- This is so well put. I never married the Cheater. We lived together and he paid for things, but there was always a part of me that never trusted him fully. That small still voice that shouts out at you- it must be the voice of survival. His eyes never matched his smile.

      My mother keeps telling me I dodged a bullet. Yes, he broke my heart, then ran it through the blender- but I am getting better. I am seeing the first light of Meh. He cannot touch my house, my car, my savings. I believe he stole my furniture and keep sakes from a storage unit he owns….but I got out easy. I hate that he took my stuff -my salt water aquarium my grandfather bought me 🙁
      a table my father made
      but I can buy new things.

      I did hire an investigator. The past women the Cheater lived with are:

      dead from drug overdoses
      addicted to drugs
      in prison
      had their children taken away

      He is a moving force of Evil in this world. The people whose lives he touches are left in ruins, and he moves on with ease and a smile. People are interchangeable to him. He is a type of negative energy vampire. He should be studied in a lab and caged off from humans.

      He offered me drugs about 5 times and I always said “Hell NO.” A few times he geared up to get married and I always stalled. I do believe he had his eye on my modest home or using my good credit to get loans.

      Reading these posts makes me so very grateful that I was not legally bound to this Mutant Puke Bag.

      • Wonder Chump, you indeed did dodge a bullet and your gut instincts were good! Thank Heavens. Yes, maybe he did take some items that were dear to you, but he didn’t totally destroy your life like he did the other girlfriends. As for your treasured items he stole, just be thankful he can’t steal your memories of your beloved relatives. It sucks that some dirt bag would stoop so low, but considering the fact that he wrung out of you what he thought would do him some good and has left you alone consider it “protection” or innoculation from a bad disease! I wish you peace and joy going forward.

    • Sunk costs as previously posted here.


      Ask yourself this question-“How much is it worth to be rid of this manipulative monster ?”
      If and when you marry again, ask to see your fiancee’s credit reports, FICO score, Social Security statement and tax returns before the two of you sign a prenup.

  • Chump Lady!
    Your Monday Post Topic serves more than one purpose!
    Everyone, book your COLONOSCOPY! SERIOUSLY.
    THIS could save your life.
    Most chumps, do have a great sense of humour, (hand up here), but I worked in the medical field for years.
    Having a colonoscopy is much better than getting a colostomy, which in many cases could have been prevented with colonoscopy done on the frequency as deemed by your Medical Provider.
    Chump Lady, you are mighty. Glad you drank your gallon and got er done!

  • I’d bet my next paycheck that she played you for a divorce. The move from Florida to California is a move from an “equitable distribution” state (where what you had before marriage stays yours) to a community property state. Ka-ching. So she set you up, maybe as far back as before she had the baby. You’re wrong about her–she works. Her job is to set you up to give her 1/2 of what you have so she can move on to the next–hopefully richer–man.

    You’d better have a very good lawyer because you need at minimum joint custody of this child. Because her mother is a horrible person.

    • That was my thoughts exactly. She was playing the long game. She moved to California with a plan. I would get just as nasty back, and if he is a millionaire, I would fight like a badger to reduce her ashes. I would hire a squad of brutal lawyers, private eyes and consultants. I would out lawyer her, motion her to death and demand psychological testing, custodial evaluations, the works. She would never have a moment’s peace until she left me and my girl the hell alone.

      Game on, Bitch.

      • CA is actually a state where you maintain pre-marriage assets as separate. So she may have thought everything would magically become hers, but it won’t

    • CA community property is that which is acquired DURING the marriage.

      Alimony can be determined based on the years of marriage. A set limit of years is becoming the norm.

      Wave a few thousand dollars in front of her nose for a quitclaim deed and she’d probably sign it.

  • ChumpedMan,

    In the long run, you will recoup any financial losses. You know you will. Consider this a business venture that went belly-up and move on.

    Two things do come to mind for me, both to be reviewed with your lawyer:

    – If you can prove she had affairs in Florida and THEN moved to California and continued adultery in a 50/50 state – does that proof amount to anything productive for you?

    – What is her number? Seriously – what is the $$ amount big to make her THINK “she won”, but get her to walk away with minimal custody. A one time, lump sum, get the fuck out of my life payment… like you’d pay a blackmailer. C’mon – you know what motivates her… play to her ego. She’s a narcissist. If you can manage paying that number, do it. Get it done. Writing her a check every month will suck the life out of you. Make this as clean cut as possible so you and your daughter can move on and build a better life (ideally, out of California).

    I’m sorry this happened to you. But, don’t let it define you and keep your focus on the future and your daughter.

  • While I am not positive that the ex actually cheated on me, there are enough signs and enough other issues with her being borderline that I find this place home. No it isn’t fair. And many days I have issues remembering how blessed I am. I did fight for the kids and managed to get sole custody in a very conservative part of the country. I got the house and the better car. I didn’t go to prison after she called the cops on me for a domestic violence accusation. We are about to have the hearing where she will get her 4th contempt of court. This time it will be for non-payment of child support. Why can’t she pay, because she just day her second and third kid (twins this time) since the divorce 28 months ago. She married a man old enough to be her father who makes half my salary on the day the divorce was signed. My name has been slimed over the entire world and I have had 2 neighbors actively spy on me since the divorce. (This has been admitted to in court documents). I have lost 6 figures in this fight. Meanwhile my kids are happier than they have ever been. They are doing well in school. They love my new squeeze. The bleeding has stopped and I am now healing. Meanwhile my ex is dealing with 3 in diapers while she will probably need diapers again since she had issues after her 1st with the new hubby. She is having to live on the kindess of strangers and it will only get worse for her. It will get better but it will not ever be fair. Now if I can just remind myself of that more often.

  • Standing ovation for CL’s response! My cheater left me after 20 years of marriage when I was 6 months pregnant and already had 2 tweens. After a year of being separated, here are other things I know:
    1. He also has a drinking and gambling problem
    2. He has lied about so many things and for a very long time and continues to lie
    3. He cheated multiple times (not just when he left) and with multiple woman (one of those was while I was pregnant, another of those he got pregnant)
    4. He doesn’t read or follow court orders. I had to file a contempt motion just last week
    5. He has a business in addition to his salary that he has spent the last year devaluing and running up expenses to try to get the net income to zero (hired his girlfriend into a bogus job title within a month of my getting a lawyer and more than quadrupled his business expenses in 2016)
    6. He barely sees he kids (which makes planning anything during “his time” a pain in the ass because he “has rights” to see the kids during his court appointed time but feels entitled to skip a majority of those times when he has something better to do)
    7. I have more in retirement and will probably have to turn part of that over to him (I was the saver, he was the spender)
    8. I will end up being the only one to help kids with college
    9. Refuses to even maintain the term life insurance premiums, let alone any other extra costs for the kids
    10. My baby has a rare and severe form of epilepsy and he hasn’t bothered to even get trained on how to care for her in the 9 months since she was diagnosed.

    Things could be worse, ChumpedMan. Even my situation could be worse. I will lose a significant amount in savings in both the settlement and with attorney fees. And that is a bitter pill to swallow, but it will be worth it just to get it settled and separated. You are at the beginning of the divorce. She will hit you even harder and in more fucked up ways that you can even imagine. Focus on what you will be gaining and what is most important. Money can always be built back up.

  • Jedi hugs to you ChumpedMan. I know it is tough to see a bright side, as you have 12 more years of co-parenting with your STBXW. Bright side– you have a wonderful daughter, and you were only married for 5 years; no lifetime alimony.

    The disordered are all the same. My ex and I split things evenly (kept our own retirement accounts, etc), except he walked away from the house (cheater guilt? plus at the time, no equity) so we did not have to sell it and the kids could have some stability. He married OWife and moved overseas.

    Now, 4 years later, he quit his job and wants to pay $0 in child support. His consolation to me– “I COULD ask for child support from you, but I will not.” Why me paying him? Our youngest child visits him ca 40 days out of the year.

    Please know that there are some fantastic Chumps out here in California. I had a meetup with one just yesterday. Things suck right now, but it will get better, just takes a day at a time. Deep breaths and Jedi hugs.

  • I’m not a lawyer, just a California chump. CA may be a “liberal” state, but more importantly it’s a no-fault state. So, yeah, the court doesn’t care about her infidelity per se. However, you aren’t utterly screwed financially. In CA, alimony for marriages less than 10 years is typically for one-half the length of the marriage. So your STBX will get alimony for 2.5 years. It’s worth the money to have your lawyer and CPA go through your assets and protect those that are legally your separate property. My divorce was final 2 years ago, so the legal minutae are getting fuzzy, but there’s a legal difference between assets and income which may also be important for you.

    Where the adultery and cheater crap do enter the picture is regarding custody. You must document everything you do for your child as well as every time STBX doesn’t participate in child-rearing. CA *loves* 50/50 custody so you’re going to swim upstream on this to get more. You’ll likely be required to go to mandatory custody mediation — ask your lawyer for a referral to a custody coach. By far the best $ I spent in my divorce; I got greater than 95% timeshare of our remaining minor child.

    Your situation is the shittiest of shit sandwiches IMO. I despise hearing that chumps have to pay cheaters a single dime, but it is what it is. Your marriage was fairly short term, so your spousal support obligation won’t last too long. Be on the lookout for STBX to drag the divorce out so she can milk that cash cow. Play hard ball.

  • What’s weird is that I imagine my cheater STBX sees it and spins it this way–that I somehow used him by being a SAHM. But without me not only being the only present parent, but also contributing valuable work to his business, making his travel (sigh) possible, freeing the time for his MBA and on an on, he could not have become successful. So, I will fight for what I believe I have true ownership of, while he is no doubt out there saying I am greedy to take what is “his.”

    • Cashmere your story is mine. Here’s what your future might hold. Getting my 50/50 took hearing about my utter failure as a SAHM. All that work, everything I invested family meant nothing to him. I was a parasite that used him for money. I took care of everything and beyond and every day he came home to homecooked meal, spotless house, kids stuff entirely covered. If he came home — lots of after work meetings. Now I hear I did not lift a finger to parent the kids, the house was an unsanitary pit of filth, pets neglected, I spent all his money (What on groceries? I buy clothes at the thrift store.) and am a lazy spoiled bitch. If I were a decent person I would have left it all to him and asked my parents for money. My parents are elderly and disabled — they do have lots of money and will need every cent for long-term care.

      The difference is that I worked and managed the house while he partied through grad school. In some states degrees are considered property, though not mine. I did receive a boost in alimony for the same amount of time he was in school.

      • I can’t remember the exact number, but some economist put a dollar value on the SAHM services over thirty years and it was the millions. Like $15 million big ones.

        Running a house is hard work. Running a house with children, both human and furry ones, is backbreaking.

        Most Chumps want to “get it right”, it seems. So we are not the parents who throw out frozen pizza from Dollar Tree. No, we are cooking quinoa with sweet potatoes or homemade peanut cookies. Wiping down the counters with Clorox wipes. Making sure sun screen and Front line are in stock.

        Some judges pay attention. It might be worth it have an actuary or CPA extrapolate the value of all the work you have done based on what your Numb Nuts would have had to pay for: chef, driver, nanny, cleaner, dog walker, travel agent.

        That will shut his dumb ass up or at least give him something to choke on. 🙂

        • I’m probably going to have tomatoes thrown at me for this, but if ChumpedMan’s cheater was SAHM that actually did a decent job of parenting their child and running a houshold – she did actually work. That said, she’s still a horrible human being for how she has treated you.

          I guess this issue is a little triggery for me as after putting my career on the back burner and working part-time jobs and being the full time parent while Ex got a Ph.D. and then tenure and conducted international research for long periods of time, I was informed that I “contributed nothing to the marriage” because I didn’t work.

          So, if she was a decent parent, she was “working” and provided you the space/time for you to do your thing and also have a family. Of course this in no way justifies/excuses the cheating. And she may not deserve alimony b/c of cheating breaking the marriage covenant. But, if she was a decent mom – she was working.

    • They always think we are greedy and taking “their” money. I gave a tenure and a higher paying job for my X to have his dream job, just this year (15 years later) am I making the SAME amount as when I left the former job. But my X still claimed marital assets were ‘his’ money. SMH.

      Cashmere–the trick is not to give a damn what they think. Or, to be glad they think that way because then splitting community property hurts them more ; ).

  • Chumpedman:
    Time to dig out those old financial records. Community property only counts based on assets SINCE you got married. Any documentation you have for bank accounts, retirement accounts, house equity, etc. prior to the marriage is not divided 50/50. While your STBX may be entitled to some spousal support, many states like mine (TX) only award it for a few years to allow the under-earning partner time to train for a job.

    Document EVERYthing that is related to custody. While it is likely you’ll have to start out with 50/50 custody, cheaters rarely do what it takes to maintain their full parental rights. Be sure your lawyer is up on dealing with the disordered.

    Good luck!

  • If CA works the same as my state, you’ll make payments to Domestics rather than writing a check payable to: $hitty A$$wipe of a Cheating Spouse. That makes it a bit easier.

    I would encourage you to completely rewrite the script of those payments. You are NOT paying your Cheater. You are making payments on 1) Freedom, 2) Sanity, 3) Mightiness, 4) Peace. It’s a perspective change that makes it much less of a $hit sandwich for me.

    Best wishes to you!!!

  • Chumpedman,

    Some other thoughts.

    1) Get a paternity test. It is possible (however horrific) that your wife got knocked up, and decided that you were the best provider of her current lovers, and declared you the father. I’d want to know if I were in your position.

    2) Assuming the child is yours, you might consider giving your STBX a much more generous financial settlement if you get more of the custody. Initially, she’ll fight for more custody (since more custody – more $$$), but if you suggest the opposite, that while the child support is lower, the spousal support is higher, she will likely show her true colors and let you have the kid almost full time for a few extra bucks.
    This will allow you to keep your family more intact, and protect your kid from her influence. You sound like you’re in a good position financially, so I’d strongly consider something like this

    3) Even if the child isn’t yours biologically, it is still yours emotionally. You can decide what relationship you wish to have with the child going forward. There’s nothing wrong with continuing to raise a child that you were tricked into thinking was yours. Just better to know the truth going forward.

    Keep going to your therapist. And thank him from all of us here at Chump Nation for being one of the good ones.

    Hugs. Strength. Peace.

    • Thank you for your male perspective on the paternity issue, Aeronaut. I would want to know if I were a man, i think it’s very important, even if just for health issues. It makes a difference. I was adopted as a baby it makes a difference in your health history.

      • I am somewhat convinced that at least one , maybe two of my kids are not mine, biologically. Many physical differences that cannot be accounted for. But, that said, I have never wanted to know for sure. We are so bonded and I think if they ever found out, it would traumatize them even more than their mom’s cheating.
        I try to look at their presence here as a blessing that more than offsets the abuse and trauma I went through, as all of us have, from the cheating.
        I , often, console myself with this thought of how lucky I am to have my kids.

        • I can certainly understand your feelings, Arnold. It sounds like you have been a wonderful father, regardless of biology.

          That said, the truth just about always comes out if ANYONE over one person knows the truth. I found out my paternity through the deathbed “confession” of a senile relative.

          I don’t think it would change how you feel about your kids. It didn’t change how I felt about my parents when I found out I was adopted. But if your doubt is founded in truth your ex and others know that. And they may want the “truth to come out” one day. Just speaking as one who had it happen to me. And the circumstances is what made it hurtful.

      • Anita,

        I too was adopted at birth. My mother is, well, my mother, and the woman who gave birth to me is my birth mother. I knew about it when I was pretty young, and it wasn’t a big deal.

        Parenting is being there for a kid for a couple of decades, not donating some genetic material.


        No quarrels with your decisions at all. It’s a powerful emotional statement to love all your kids despite doubts and fears.

        Hugs. Strength. Peace.

  • I think you should name her “Ass Cancer” to remind you of Chump Lady’s sound advice. Welcome to the BOHICA tribe my friend. (Bend Over Here It Comes Again). Half of my military pension now goes to Train Wreck for the rest of her life. Not even negotiable. We’ll be okay. We both have the talent to make that money back up elsewhere. You can’t put a price on the peaceful feeling of not having to worry about her anymore. Now remove that tumor.

    • darn, I was going to steal “ass cancer” for my XH’s nickname! sums up my sentiments toward him very well 😉

  • Chumpedman,

    I feel your pain. I was in a similar situation. Wife cheated and I filed after having reached a high net worth. I paid her to go away.

    I have faith in you to rebuild. It’s only money, and you have the ability to generate more. I like Bob Marley’s last words, “money can’t buy life!”

    In your case, it can. Cut this ass cancer out of your life, whatever the cost. And be careful out there afterward my friend. Take time and don’t rush into another relationship. Focus and rebuild yourself and business.

    Unfortunately there are too many bad people out there.

    • “Unfortunately there are too many bad people out there.”

      This is one of the hardest parts to deal with. Now that we have been hurt and devasted by one up close and knowing just how many people lack character and morals, makes the thought of trusting someone else again more than scary.

  • I join the ranks of one who was chumped and have to pay the cheater. It sucks. But as my lawyer reminded me, I invested in myself with my career. He did not. And while I live in the marital home with the kids, he shares with his sister and her two kids, his parents and his whore in a house the same size as mine….guess who’s still better off? The game plan I did to offset things a bit —if you are staying in the marital home, push for sole custody of your daughter and then you may not have to pay her out until your daughter hits 18 or 21. They don’t like to upset the kids. It’s 21 in ny and my daughter in 10 this year. So I recoup my losses while he lives in a closet with mommy. And I asked for college expenses, which he has to pay 1/2 of….we have 2 kids…you do the math. He’ll walk away with nothing. As my mother used to say “See, smell, and never taste”. I have a feeling karma is gonna visit him in under a decade.

  • I am also here in California. Check with your lawyer but for marriages under 10 years, the alimony is for HALF the duration of the marriage. In your case of married for 5 years, you’d be done in 2.5 years. Check with your lawyer. Regardless, I’d recommend working quickly if your STBX is feeling any guilt and perhaps wanting to start her life with with AP, remind her she cheated and wanted out. Watch for her using your child as her ticket to maintain her lifestyle. Judges like to see 50:50 here in California. Thankfully my X didn’t think more custody would help his future with his AP. He volunteered to see children every other weekend and 2 dinners per week, which I thought was too much until my attorney explained it was 85:15! Good luck!

  • Looks like previous posters hit the Infidelity/Gold Digger Bingo so I just want to reinforce what they said and I’m really sorry. There’s no way you can justify cuckholding anyone and abusing their love and trust so profoundly. IMO the move from Fla. to Calif. was planned strategically because it was in her financial best interests, so screwing the pool boy in either state was simply a matter of which state financially rewarded her the most to be the most flagrant low life. The same with her “strategic” pregnancy so what ever ya do, please don’t give her another opportunity to do another “oops” on ya, OK?

    I’m very curious about her background. I just have a feeling “feeling” if someone were to do a bit of digging, the excavation would reveal a considerable history of treachery and lechery. This ain’t her first lap around the marriage/extortion monopoly board and her return on Hawttie Investment is diminishing as fast as her eggs are getting stale. Gotta have a big pay day before everything kind of collapses into accordion folds with no hope of smoothing out the wrinkles, lines and terminal jelly belly. After awhile even an asthetic plastic surgeon suggests politely unless you want your face and neck to reside in the same vicinity as the crown of your head (along with your other “All About Meeee!” plastic one,) give it up. Or invest in a concrete purveyor to fill in the pot holes and try to smooth things out a bit. Maybe.

    Because STBX is so manipulative, please model decency and transparency: Don’t discuss your STBX with your daughter-who is sadly gonna be (if not already) a Tool of her mother’s-unless she brings it up. Then just the bare bones facts, OK? She’s only a kid. When mom is a greedy she-bitch, nothing is too underhanded and no one escapes unscathed: You can’t shame the shameless as you’ve discovered by now. What you thought was a smile as she “confessed” her feelings for someone else? You’ll come to recognize that’s the classic reptilian Gotcha Smirk(tm) because guy, normal people don’t make that face when they’re destroying their spouse’s life by taking an emotional dump on ya nor do they take a dump anywhere outside the appropriate venue. (That’s quite alarming behavior, actually. I wouldn’t let her near my food.) I think that “confession” was a pre-emptive strike/Shit Test Two-Fer: “But I tollled you! I have feeeellliiinnggss! So whatcha gonna do about it? Oh good! Dance harder! Let’s seal my half assed confession with a rousing boudoir bounce to distract and divert from my perfidy.”

    TW’s Rules of Life #1: Life is Unfair. Or if it’s fair, it’s fair in a way I don’t understand. Like the Eagles sang, “The more I know the less I understand, All the things I thought I knew I have to learn again.” Please try to remember the sun don’t set on the same dawgs ass every day and the way your life is today, the way you feel today is a normal response to having your entire life as you knew it IED’d. I promise this is not the way you’re gonna feel forever. I also want to reinforce you did nothing to “deserve” this: In my experience some people are just plain evil, meaning malovelent. I come from an affluent family as well and I use to say to Dad, “We just seem to get rid of one greedy grasping bitch and there’s another one literally showing up on our doorstep with a pathetic tale of woe and a buncha empty bespoke trunks and matching luggage looking for a designer refill.” As if we don’t generate enough of our own home grown homicidal, greedy, treacherous DNA Divas, there’s a definite pattern here of importing these people through marriage, adult adoption (oh yes we are that crazy) or some other manipulative transparent gold digging tactic. Sometimes it’s far more expensive to live in that zip code than you ever could have imagined.

    Again, I am so sorry. She got the drop on ya so please listen to your attorney. And please take care of yourself and your daughter: You matter a lot-far more than you realize. Over your lifetime having an honest heart and the capacity to love unconditionally will pay dividends, interest and Capitol Gains way beyond that which appears in your statement from your Wealth Management advisor. Looks fade: Character is forever.
    Please come back for tune-ups: You have all of CN firmly in your corner. There’s a lotta mighty Mighty here and along with your shrink, we’ll ensure your fire continues to glow as brightly and warmly as your heart. We all need a place of refuge: You found one here.

    (PS: Tracy, that colonoscopy liquid prep stuff? It’s called “Go-Litely.” They lied: It’s an 18 hr. blast to your commode via enough brown liquid to cause your butt to explode-and your septic system as well.)

    • “Classic reptilian Gotcha Smirk.”

      Oh yes the one that shows up when you confront them with absolute proof and they Gloat Confess that, yes, there was an affair. Mistakes were made. I think it probably looks the same no matter facial features, skin color, culture or gender. Matches up with shark eyes.

    • The only thing I would question is the advice to not discuss the mother. Now, I do not mean gratuitously bad mouthing her. But, in my situation with a ASPD or NPD ( or comb platter) XW, my kids, especially as they got older, began questioning her weird, dishonest behavior. One came to me at about age 12 and said ” Da, mom lies all the time”.
      What was I to do? Discount her perceptions and gaslight her? So, I agreed, ‘Yes, she does”.
      I have also, upon learning of some of the egregious lies and behaviors, told them about NPD as it helps them understand what they are dealing with.

      • I agree; don’t gaslight your kids or spackle for the cheater’s bad behavior. Tell it like it is.

      • @Arnold: OOPS! Yeah, exactly what I meant by not discussing the mother. I think it’s right up there with “If you don’t have anything nice to say about someone”-just wait until someone else asks: You don’t have to denigrate them, they do that just fine on their own thankyouverymuch. As you experienced, your kids came to you to Reality Test as IMO it needs to be. Kids aren’t dummies, are they? I drove Dad nuts repeatedly asking, ” Dad? Am I adopted?” from the time I was about 4. Hope springs eternal in a child’s terrorized heart.

        No doubt you’ve been through the ringer. The only thing remotely in the same vacinity as being married to a Cluster B Cluster Fuck is having your Mugger as the CB. Aiye. Mine put the “Order” in “Court Order” because she habitually wiped her ass off with else’s life-and then screamed about the odor. The one that rightfully clung to her like miles of road kill skunks. Meanwhile, back at the site of the Human Colonoscope-that would be her as she inched her way up some poor unsuspecting victim’s rectum and into their colon like miles of barbed wire. Then she’d be loudly serenading the horrified on-lookers with, “Don’t Bleed For MEEEE-I Was In Argentina!” when they exsanguated. (“Bled out”-spell check refuses cooperate with the reality things die when they loose all or most of their blood) Despite being seen by, oh, the bibty other hostages she had hog tied in Mommy’s Big Ol’ Honkin’ House of Whoredom.

        Sigh. Always a victim, never a Serial Murderer.
        Thank you for bringing that up-I was waaaayyy too vague, Arnold.

        Huh. Hope ya see this, Arnold. Thanks again and my deepest sympathy-because “empathy” is a bit to close to “psychopathy.” And we’ve had plenty of that!

    • Tundra Woman,

      You are HILARIOUS ! When are you going on tour ?

      • I dunno! I’ve never done it and no one ever asked, TBH. But if they did, would you come too? Everyone could come-and hey, I just thought! We could have a nightly ritual burning of the Hopium because who needs sage when Hopium doesn’t leave a trace-after it kills!

        And do you know, every time I see your screen name I laugh and have to do a double take because I keep thinking it says, “Sucker Punched by a Sofa!” It’s been known to happen-really. Especially when you’re moving and your “friends”? Who are rapidly morphing into sweat hogs (demonstrating the power of advertising for that “Springtime Fresh” deodorant) and huffing and puffing up yet another flight of stairs towards your “new” ancient “Walk Up” apartment holding the leading end of your beat up king sized sofa? And oops, it slips-and you’re on the downside of that “great deal” piece of furniture-the one you retrieved from the curb on trash day? Well, I have had that experience.

        But I’ve also done the toilet paper impaled on the bottom of my hooker heel thing too-and proceeded to prance down the hall from the Ladies Room, across the packed lobby/waiting area of a very exclusive restaurant, and continued to prance across the restaurant. With a big ol’ smile on my face. Where my truly lovely elderly Step Mom and a few of her also very refined friends were seated along with me (yeah, why not invite a real personal audience, TW) and oh how proud I was to pull off the coup of a reserved table center court of this exclusive eatery!

        That didn’t last, lemme tell ya…pride cometh before the humiliation. Oh, that was just…awful. My poor step mom and her friends. And that’s just the beginning of THAT story and there’s plenty more where that came from. Unfortunately.

        We’d have a whole lotta fun, though! And thanks, Sucker Punched. I appreciate you, Tracy and everyone else here more than I can convey.

        Huh. I just realized I secretly hope every time I come here and honestly share some of my own genuine experiences/observations it might help someone smile through their pain.
        And just for that moment, they realize even though it sucks they can still smile. Something they’ve not been able to do in a long time.

        And sometimes we really do need to “laugh with the sinners” rather than “cry with the saints” because for sure, “the sinners have much more fun!”
        And if my screen name wasn’t TW, it’d probably be “Very Mortal Sinner!”

        • @TW – ‘pride cometh before the humiliation.’

          You have had me in total stitches the moment you joined this board. I thought, either I’m weird by thinking she is the funniest woman I’ve come across, or everybody else is weird not getting a giggle or a laugh out of many of the things you post.

          You have obviously come from a deep place of grief (like all of us), and able to turn it around to make some events hilarious. You’ve always given me an lol, not just a smirk.

          I’d join your comedy routine and play the part of (Ghost) Rider in the Sky..

          Ghost) Riders in the Sky
          Johnny Cash
          An old cowboy went riding out one dark and windy day
          Upon a ridge he rested as he went along his way
          When all at once a mighty herd of red eyed cows he saw
          A-plowing through the ragged sky and up the cloudy draw
          Their brands were still on fire and their hooves were made of steel
          Their horns were black and shiny and their hot breath he could feel
          A bolt of fear went through him as they thundered through the sky
          For he saw the riders coming hard and he heard their mournful cry
          Yippie yi ooh
          Yippie yi yay
          Ghost riders in the sky
          Their faces gaunt, their eyes were blurred, their shirts all soaked with sweat
          He’s riding hard to catch that herd, but he ain’t caught ’em yet
          ‘Cause they’ve got to ride forever on that range up in the sky
          On horses snorting fire
          As they ride on hear their cry
          As the riders loped on by him he heard one call his name
          If you want to save your soul from hell a-riding on our range
          Then cowboy change your ways today or with us you will ride
          Trying to catch the devil’s herd, across these endless skies
          Yippie yi ooh
          Yippie yi yay
          Ghost riders in the sky
          Ghost riders in the sky
          Ghost Riders in the sky
          Songwriters: Hughie Thomasson
          (Ghost) Riders in the Sky lyrics © Bug Music

          • OK! Deal! I’ll open for ya! EEEEHAAAWWWW! OOooo, you have noooo idea of the “deep well” of resulting depravity one little old lady can conjure up after a lifetime of WTF-ery and who spent their adult life/since the mid-70s working with and for the Masters of Disasters, Combat Vets. Lemme tell ya, gallows humor saves! (No offense to jaysus-but Moses invests, just sharing an observation OK?)

            And thank you so much, shechump. Ya gotta realize imma little old widow broad that lives alone with an old Garfield look-alike cat who also got unceremoniously dumped and we’ve kinda aged in place together. So now we’ve both developed that sympatico gut belly thing that kinda swings back and forth like a pendulum? Neither one of us would dare run for fear we’d be sued for lateral trespassing, Yk? (Tryin to keep it in our own zip code here.)

            There’s a lot of Posted Property up here in The Tundra. Most of it belongs to multinational corporations that I use to think had more money than institutional brains: OTOH, now even I recognize a blatant corporate tax write off when it’s that obvious. Anyway, I brought her to the other kind of vet yesterday (I’m beginning to wonder if they think I have some kind of cat derivation of Munchausen’s, it’s the second time in two weeks) and they think her belly is the way it is because of an imbilical hernia. Great. That’s her excuse. Which makes me just an chubby old imbecile apparently.

            Anyway. My world is comprised of crazy old coots (and now some delightfully new young ones who I initially ground by attaching psychotropic lightning rods to their MIA minds) and a cat who has sleeping, eating and pooping in a box that’s just a bit smaller than the total square footage of this place down to an Olympic Sport. It’s like being on Death Row in a double cell with a 4 legged “celly” with an ass of mass destruction. I feed her this really good food from the feed store, no grocery store stuff for her, ohhellno, she eats better and certainly way more expensively than I do. And I get rewarded for my efforts with a daily dose of excretory chemical warfare. Tell me it’s “not fair,” I get it, believe me. Yep.

            And also in residence is my dead husband who’s been ensconsed in two 17th century urns from a church in England I purchased after he died 25 yrs. ago thanks to a friend who had dial up Internet about the same time I realized after I dialed up the insurance company, “Wadda ya mean WHAT safety net? Where’d it GO?” So he got his requested Roast-n-Toast already so what could POSSIBLY go any further wrong with THIS plan, right? I mean, he’s already dead before our dream house even got out of the basement. Welp, those urns didn’t have TOPS to them and how much room could a big guy who’s been reduced to bone fragments take up? A lot more than ya’d think. Thankgawd I had a very large decorative ginger jar-with a lid. And what happens if those urns sans tops get knocked over?! Welp, thank Proctor and Gamble for Zip Lock bags: Seal in the Freshness. Keepin it real for a quarter of a century. I’ve been talking to him for 25 yrs. and he still hasn’t argued with me, not once-That’s some compensation, right?! Sometime I’ll tell ya about my housekeeper, Mighty Mouth and the saga of the dusting of the “Hey TW? What’s IN these things?” Believe me, hell hath no fury like a not-wanna-be young widow and no less terror than a housekeeper who needed to be peeled off the bedroom ceiling.

            Yk that concept, the Social Clock? Where we’re suppose to be doing certain things at certain times like graduating, getting a job, starting a career, getting married, getting widowed and all that? Mine has been on some combination of the “Fast and Furious” and “A Clockwork Orange.”
            “What a long, strange trip it’s been!”

            So thank you very much-I figured I just scared the hell outta everyone, really! OK, I’ll shut up now thatcha all know, “Yep. All that fine edge-a-macation” as the vets have teased me about for decades really was pretty much a complete waste because I’m “not from here” and was dumb enough to think there were four seasons, Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter, right? Oh no, not even at all close. I was shocked to learn there really IS a product called “Doe in Heat”-and it’s not the neighborhood whore. And “Fur, Fish and Game” really isn’t some kind of porno magazine-that was my initial and long lasting impression the way these guy’s eyes would kinda glaze over when discussing the latest issue together out in the Waiting Room.

            Have a good night, all. I’ll be barkin at the moon-but I flat out refuse to eat any MORE shit!

            • @TW – ‘Mine has been on some combination of the “Fast and Furious” and “A Clockwork Orange.”
              “What a long, strange trip it’s been!”

              Great post. I’ll need to go over it a couple times to get all the nuances..

              “”Alex: There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening. The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking.””

              Strange movie – Clockwork Orange – but if you watch it enough, it starts to make sense. ca 1970’s British.

        • I’ll be there with bells on, as my late mum used to say. Your “tp stuck to my hump-me-pump” story reminds me of Gilda Radner’s Rosanna Rosanna Danna character from SNL, back in the day. Mr. Saffa was born in Kenya, grew up in South Africa and was part of the great white flight after apartheid ended…

          • @Sucker – ‘Gilda Radner’s Rosanna Rosanna’

            Is that the one where she’s got toilet paper stuck to the inside of her nostril?

  • Another way to look at it is “the sooner the better”.

    Say you are worth 2 million and you’re net worth increases $240K each year.

    Divorce her now and you lose $1,000,000.

    Divorce her in 4 years from now and you lose $1,480,000, or an additional $480,000

    $480,000 divided by 48 months = $10,000 a month

    So, staying married to her costs you $10,000 a month, in addition to her monthly expenses.

    So, the sooner the better.

    Also, if you divorce her now, hopefully your spousal support will be over by 2021 or so, and you won’t have to spend a dime on her in the meantime.

    Or, you can provide for her for 4 more years, then divorce and pay spousal support until 2025!

    The sooner the better.

  • As a chump looking into divorce in a ‘no-fault’ state; there are ways for the non working spouse to get completely screwed. I haven’t worked in three years, as I agreed to be a sahm. My cheater took full advantage and started cheating when I was pregnant with DD. I talked with 3 different attorneys and they were excited to help until they realized that although he has a well managed stock account, it is considered a “separate asset” because he had the account before our marriage. He also got a hefty inheritance when his father passed, which, of course, went directly into his stock account. He has never been willing to open a joint account with me. He gives me $$ each month for groceries and gas but deposits it into HIS checking acct. (I have access to his debit card) This is so he can go over the statements to see where I’ve spent money. To avoid conflict over how much $$ I spend and where, I now withdrawal all of the $$ and put it into my own acct.
    He has worked very hard to keep our community assets limited with massive debt and an average of $1200/mo in his checking account. We have a house which we owe more than we’ve paid on it. I am literally SCREWED.
    But I have a game plan. I’m squirreling a little $$ away each month and looking for a pt job. I write Children’s stories and am actively working on getting published. I’m going to walk out of this completely independent of him. It’s going to take awhile but I’m doing it and it feels great. He can keep his $$. All I want is my freedom and a safe and healthy environment for my children.
    Meanwhile, I am doing a lot of pretending and enduring much psychological fuckery. He is a master manipulator and gaslighter. He is a master at his craft. It kills me when he turns everything around on me (eg: he will tell me to shut up or cuts me off or he talks over me when I’m trying to explain something and I raise my voice because I’m frustrated or just trying to be heard. He immediately tells me not to yell in front of the kids OR will accuse me of being out of control or “scary” which really makes me feel crazy… Then as I feel like I’m going nuts, he literally will stick his nose in the air and walk away with a smug look on his face. He won and I’m just as nuts as he claims me to be. I’m left feeling like a horrible mother, and a terrible person in general. He’s used this tactic to deny me information regarding his affair.. I’m scary and he’s afraid of what I might do if he divulges any information, including OW name) I’m in hell but as Maya Angelou put it: “still, like air, I’ll rise”.
    I am a stronger woman than I was a year ago… And I am growing stronger every day. One day I’ll be writing about how my strength and determination helped me to escape my nightmare. Until then, CN and Chumpedman; I will gather my strength through your stories and know I am not alone. Thank you.

    • Dear Fed up – everytime you use his debit card at a store (and other places) take some cash back and squirrel it away.

    • I think LAJ replied to your comment below, please read it if you haven’t seen it because she has some excellent advice on your financial situation. As she points out, even if the account was established prior to marriage, if your STBX has been putting marital income into it, you should be entitled to half that. I had a very similar situation with an account that X’s family gifted money into–I was able to do enough forensic accounting on my own to show exactly how much of the assets in the account had been gifted and how much we’d contributed. I negotiated for a proportionate percentage of the total, based on the full, with-interest, value of the account.

      • Absolutely; any money added since the marriage is joint property. And if her X can’t document what was in the account at marriage, it’s all community property.

  • Also, if you are thinking of selling any property in the next year or two, it might be better to do it now as part of the settlement, so that she has to pay her share of the closing costs and other costs related to selling.

    E.g. say you have a property worth $500,000 and closing costs and other costs to sell it are $40,000, leaving $460,000 profit. So you get $230,000 and she gets $230,000.

    If you keep the property, you might have to give her $250,000 right now. If you sell in a year for the same $500,000, you get the $460,000 profit, less the $250,000 you gave her nets you $210,000.

  • Be careful Chumpedman! People who have been chumped tend to attract other predators who want to take advantage of you. Listen to Chump Lady and FIX YOUR PICKER in therapy. It’s a safe environment and your therapist sounds like a good one. Do NOT trust your instincts because, sadly for us, our instincts ALLOWED us to become bait for these assholes. Do NOT get serious with anyone until your therapist feels you are ready and even then take it slow. I would share with your therapist about other relationships that you have (good ones and bad) so they can help you decipher quality people vs predators. Almost always, chumps have been chumped more than 1x. Aggressive character flawed asswipes can detect us like sharks smelling a drop of blood in the water.

  • If you’ve got investments (stocks, bonds, mutual funds, REITs etc), get on the phone to all of those firms pronto (like Vanguard or whomever holds your investments) and get your statement from RIGHT BEFORE your marriage. Whatever that balance was, that is considered NON-MARITAL assets.

    So, if you have $1,000,000 in mutual funds today in 2017, but your balance right before you got married in 2012 was $700,000, that $700k is SUBTRACTED from the $1M, leaving $300,000 in “marital property”. The Cheater gets $150,000 (half of $300k), NOT $500,000.

    But it’s imperative you get on the phone NOW to each and every investment firm that holds your assets and get those statements of your ending balances right before you got married. By law, firms only need to keep these books and records for SIX years, so you need to hurry, as that is the proof you’ll need in court. Many firms will keep them longer, but you don’t want to take that chance.

    • His stock account is not just “his,” any more than my retirement is just “mine.” If he has been channeling marital income (his paycheck) into that account, you should get some of that money. I love your plan, but find an attorney who isn’t lazy and can bring in a forensic accountant to see how much “joint income” went into that stock account. You file joint taxes, correct? Then the total amount of that yearly income = marital income. You can show how much went into household finances. Document every cent. Pad it a little to cover $ you squirrel away. In essence, keep a set of books: what goes to mortgage, utilities, taxes, food, etc.? Then you can look at the income after taxes, etc. on the W2 form. Subtract the household cost from net income and you have WHAT HE TOOK FOR HIMSELF. You should get 1/2 of that. You may owe more on the house than you paid but the other key number is market value. It may be worth more than you owe. A forensic accountant may be able to show that he rigged the game to keep you from ever accumulating any marital assets. It is horrible that these hyenas get away with this sort of fraud but out of the rubble we can grow very mighty.

      • Thank you all for your input. I am gathering our tax information and slowly, on the DL. He does all of his transactions online so I don’t see any statements from his Charles Schwab account. (which includes his stock acct. and separate checking acct where his automatic deposits from his employment go).
        He has complete control over our finances, which is why I know it’s imperative that I get a financial audit done on his ass. Of course, since I get a little $$ each month for household expenses, it leaves very little in the way for other expenses including hiring legal/financial help. This is why I am looking for a pt job. I am squirreling$$ away but it’s a slow process which I’d like to expedite.
        I’m dealing with a guy who needs 100% control of his environment or he feels completely powerless.
        I am not looking forward to the divorce process. But I am looking forward to the rest of my life without him in it.
        Thanks again for all of your advice on getting my act together… Cheers!

  • I haven’t had time to read all the comments so far, so I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I would be more concerned with custody of your daughter. If this woman is out partying all the time now, she will surely continue that during/after the divorce because she will need to find a new source of money/kibbles, etc. Having a young daughter will cramp her style, and I would be concerned about how that will impact your daughter’s life. Will she witness this type of activity? Will she be left alone so Mommy can go out? Consider documenting her “lifestyle” and going for full custody. As someone mentioned, maybe use her greed to leverage a better custody arrangement. Good luck and hugs…

  • I’m sorry, Chumpedman, that you’re being fleeced by the Gold Digger. While all of us eat shit sandwiches, there are two kinds of Chumps who have the super-sized shit sandwiches: the faithful working spouse who ends up having to underwrite their stay-at-home cheater’s affair and the faithful stay-at-home parent who faces devastating loss of income with the departure of the cheater.

    You’re in the first camp, and I’m sorry. There’s not a lot you can do unless you have a really good attorney. You might also look into a divorce financial planner. You have the assets to make this a worthwhile move.

    I’d say that it does get better. Being free of a cheater carries a lot of psychological benefits. You’ll feel happier and more energetic. Definitely you will be a better dad without your X-wife’s toxic presence

  • No matter what it costs, getting g rid of them is worth every penny.

  • I recently divorced in CA, and as much as it sucks, I am actually in favor of the “brutally no fault” situation here. I think in your case, it will actually work to your advantage.

    As others have pointed out – you do get to break apart any assets that were premarital as not part of the overall settlement. As a simple example: You have a retirement account with $10,000 in it on the day you married. Today it has $20,000 in it. You only put the $10,000 addition on the table… so she gets $5000 of that. You were married a pretty short amount of time, so things like houses, business etc, are going to be assessed in the gain over the 5 years.

    Spousal is also hard to get in CA. I was cautioned by my lawyer that there was a chance my Ex could have me pay him spousal. I recall that she said that for marriages of 5 to 10 years, it is common that spousal is awarded for roughly 1/2 the time of the marriage. Since you are looking at 5 years, you might get away with 2-3 years of spousal. Child support… you should of course want 50/50, and possibly look into primary custody.

    The thing you have to recall, is that these disordered fuckwits think that they are so smart and will get one over on you and that they are above the law. I found the kind of elegant thing about the CA system is that there wasn’t really very much to talk about, particularly for such a short term marriage.

    The hardest part is letting the unfair thing happen. I get it. I KNOW the Fuckwit was hiding cash. I told my lawyer “he’s hiding cash”… she said “how much?” At the end of the day, we determined that it was not worth it for me to jump through hoops and spend the money to get that cash. But I still had to just sit back and leave money on the table. I didn’t cheat, but I’m the one who had to just keep letting him fuck me over because it was easier. That said – these people are lazy. Many of them cannot be bothered to actually sit and do the math of division of assets. For example, I had moved the deposit of my paycheck into my personal account, but kept paying the bills from our joint account. when we did our financial disclosure statements, I did not lie, but I also did not make a big production out of the fact that the cash assets at that moment were not actually 50/50. If he had done like 2 minutes worth of math, he would have realized that I owed him about $7000. They get in their heads that they are going to get one over on you, but when it comes to doing the hard work of actually documenting and doing math and producing required information, they really can’t be bothered. You can use this to your advantage.

  • Brother I feel your pain, it sounds like you married the twin of my narcissistic Class B personality disordered EX. Chump Lady hit the nail right on the head. When she said give it a few years and you will be so glad to be away from her. I too did as you had said and I fixed or attempted to fix my marriage after the first affair. I too did as you had said and I fixed or attempted to fix my marriage after the first affair. You can’t fix a broken person Lake you can a broken car. I was married 12 years and after my divorce I found out about 4 known affairs. And there will probably more. A couple words of advice. 80% of the divorces today are filed by women. Another 70% file domestic violence charges against the spouse to gain a PTO. Most of those charges are dropped has these women use the legal system to try and gain an upper hand. Document everything and I will repeat document everything. Create a journal. And Daly make entries into it. When you go to court having this journal will definitely help. Because you have documented exactly what went on her lies will twist and turn. Also please take a look at a website call shrinks for

    This site also give you a little bit of insight into what is going to come.
    Also when you do finally get a divorce please go no contact with your ex. This will help the healing process good luck

    • Anecdotal I know, but I have two chump friends IRL who are being accused by the GAL of exaggerating or making up abuse claims (including evidence of sexual abuse of a child) in order to gain leverage against their STBXs. I’ve also read that accusations of parental alienation, which is another form of abuse, are often viewed by judges as nothing more than an attempt by the injured spouse to gain leverage.

    • That is an MRA site, it’s information is unreliable and your PO stats are incorrect.

      • I don’t know how women filed for more divorces contribut to the discussions?
        I mean most of chumps coming here happens to be women.Shouldn’t they be actually stay in the marriages or filed for divorces?
        And if the chump is the husband.Would he not bother to file for divorces since most divorces are filed by women?

        • Most women are forced to file …..or lose resources! The Cheater will keep spending money on the mistress.., remember they want want cake! Mine was abusing me in order to get me to move out of our beautiful expensive paid off home so that he and Schmoopie could just inherit it! My husband wrote me a dear Jane letter to move out at that time and promised that he would finanacally help me! He did not want to divorce and split his assets he and his mistress were literally trying to steal all the assests of a 36 year marriage by abusing me enough to move out! They force the wife to file the mistress starts to replace her!

  • Haven’t read all the comments — just want to say everyone please see your OWN lawyer. The law is specific to your state, country, and of course your own situation. This is an advice site, not a legal site. We’re about commiserating here, not giving legal counsel. Just FYI. Thanks.

  • Side note:

    Right there with you, chump Lady. I had my first colonoscopy a week or so ago, and for a bonus I got an endoscopy too! My teeth still hurt from clenching on the bite guard. However, all clear on the colon, yay!!!! They found ulcers on my esophagus where it meets the stomach. Doc (snort) suggested I lower my stress. (Snicker)

    ((((Hugs)))) tomyou @chumpedman…I had to pay exh1 cheater. ..totally sucks, I get it. Just focus on your daughter and getting yourself back on track.

  • I knew someone who was a millionaire, his wife of 25 years cheated and got half of everything. 4 years later, using the intelligence that had made him money to begin with, he had recouped his financial loss. His xwife on the other hand got taken by her true love who ended up blowing through her settlement then left her for the next mark. Now she is broke and he has a good life. The cheaters partner up with like people and there is no honor among thieves.

  • Chumpedman,

    A hellava ride you’ve been on! Sorry. It sucks on the unfair side of the table. The advice above is spot on. Someday, in the future, you will reap the rewards of being a good, moral human being. I wish there were more people like you out there. Good luck getting rid of the rubbish and moving on. One day it the future I hope to meet a man like you and travel the world as equals. You give me hope. All the best.

  • NewDayDawning, this is usually the case. These so-called “twu wuvs” these fuckwits fall for are usually just con artists or losers looking for the next payday. Unfortunately our idiot spouses really believe they have found thier “soul mates”! Yuck! I hate that term, but in some odd way, maybe they have cause I feel my Ex conned me for years till he found a better mark. In the end it is sad because they end up broke and abandoned. All thier “charm” and shiny new wears off and they become tragic figures. What a horrible waste of thier lives. Seems the happiness they pursue constantly eludes them. Pity.

  • Chumpedman,

    It sucks right now, big time! But I’m glad that in all this shit you’ll have to muddle through you’ve got CN to cheer you on and advise you!

    I haven’t read all the comments, but from my experience dealing with a disordered fuck that would have been happy leaving me with nothing, I would recommend:

    1) Use your business acumen to distance yourself emotionally. Treat your ex as a bad early investor in your most precious venture (your daughter), you might need to buy out that investor, but you can protect your most valuable asset (your relationship with your daughter). Look for divorce laws in CA and FL if you still have residency in FL, compare and contrast what is best for you in terms of low alimony, and more time with your daughter. Make copies of all financials, as well as download all your STBX phone, text records, online pictures, CC statements, and online shopping history. I uncovered many interesting things I could leverage during our negotiations…

    2) Negotiate that all future IP post-divorce will be yours and yours alone, this will prevent your disordered freak from coming after you in court by claiming that your next business idea was discussed by the two of you while married.

    3) Negotiate more child support money against more time with your daughter. Hire a lawyer that is a “Father’s rights” lawyer, CA is progressive, use the system to have as much time with your daughter as possible. Be sure to be there for her as much as possible. Reach the comments from SureChumpedalot to learn how he went from shared to primary custody with this kids, his roadmap might help you.

    4) Use a family software to communicate with your X and keep track of your kid’s schedule. 2houses, ourfamilywizard are good options. The more the divorce will feel real, the more your STBX will show her pathology, having all this documented on a court-receivable co-parenting software might help your case in future court hearing. Their expense tracker might also help you make sure she spends her child support money for things related to your daughter.

    5) If you will owe her alimony/maintenance, put some tight conditions on how long and what you’ll pay for. Get as much info about her pre-marital job and training, then if needed hire a career coach to advise her on education/work she will need to pursue to become independent. She will probably fail and then you can file for voluntary underemployment to possibly pay as little alimony as possible.

    Keep fighting as hard as possible for as much time with your daughter as possible, and best of luck Chumpedman, breeding with a fuckwit is no walk in the part, but it’s a hell of a lot better than staying married with a known lying cheating coward.

  • Chumpedman, some excellent advice here and my 2 cents is to keep seeing your amazing therapist and please do listen to him/her this time around. Who said life was fair, it’s not – just ask a refugee or long term unemployed – it sucks and we get to make the best of it we can. You just need to focus on making this world a better place for having been in it – for your daughter’s sake. Cut your losses, pay the $, write it off and slam close that door on your ex. You are young with a great life ahead of you and so much potential. Focus on being the sane parent, your child will give you back more than the $ you gave to her mother in 2017. She is likely to squander it, so make sure she is locked out of tapping you for more through your child (ask me how I know). Retain that kickass lawyer and accountant, line up your ducks, view this is a bad contract you need to extricate yourself from and Cut your losses as sunk costs in a bad deal you’ll never repeat. Good Luck!

  • Chumped Man, lots and lots of good solid legal advice on California law on the web, especially re community vs separate property. So get educated. Alimony is now often 1/2 marriage length (in my long term marriage, 20+years, got four years maintenance?) A good lawyer is worth her/his weight in gold, they know the law and should answer any questions you have. They also know what the local judge/family court will rule. Do set a goal of getting MSA done quickly, with a CDFA’s input. IMHO, I would try to get both lawyers together to negotiate fair terms asap. Best wishes to you.

  • Going into my divorce I knew it would devastate me financially and it did. But I resolved to be philosophical about it: I have a good job and always will. My kids love me and we have a nice little life. My XW paid me a lump sum spousal support and pays me a small amount of child support, as she outearned me 2:1 in our marriage. (It kills her to do this as she thinks it’s so unfair. Snort.) I will have to pay her part of my pension when I retire.

    But whatever. She is miserable with the OM, who, shockingly, is the not the white knight he promised to be. They got engaged, then she called off the engagement. I am free of her cruelty, her deceit, her selfishness. (I grew up poor and I think that helps, as I never associated happiness with money and always assumed I would struggle financially.)

    • Not to minimize what you are struggling with, of course. It’s outrageous and unjust.

    • Hon, I’m looking for a penny-aire: No prospects yet, just a few-hey, did you know in the US it’s actually the Secret Service that investigates counterfeit currency? So not only are they tasked with keeping blow hards (and their attending “blow harder” purveyors) and other “dignitaries” safe, but also all the bills-with the cocaine residue all over them along with all the bacteria and viruses contained there on?
      So how fitting is it that all the counterfeit wanna be the next Mr. or Ms. Cheater-pants deserve to have their Secret Service moonlighting activities exposed by the very “service”-named after them?

      Yep. Nothing is dirtier than fake currency-unless it’s the Secret Servicers.

  • Just to kind of further what Leagle has mentioned several times above – property settlement in terms of finances is viewed basically as a business transaction. Once I moved my mindset from justice to “fairness in the eyes of the law” wrt to the financials in my divorce, I was able to take a relentless business-like approach to it. The goal became to protect as much of my (and my kid’s) financial futures as possible.

    This was NOT easy, and it was NOT inexpensive. But focusing on the argument of what should and should not be marital property worked some minor wonders for me (as did dangling the threat of trial, during which we made it clear that my cheating ex and any and all of her affair partners would be depositioned).

    And I was able to achieve a settlement that most guys would envy in Pennsylvania:
    – I have the house (that was NOT easy!)
    – No alimony
    – No child support
    – I have, on the whole, over 60% of the assets

    I would encourage the OP to look at the biggest picture possible, have clear goals in mind, and get emotional support regarding the justice portion of things, which does indeed suck major donkey ass!

    • Amen, brother! Despite the “50-50 is the law” business, I spent a ton on a lawyer with a fearsome reputation and it was worth every penny. I got the house, no alimony, full custody of my daughter, and 2/3rds of my assets. Cheaters like to keep their reputation, and the threat of trial and deposing sex partners carries leverage. They also like to get a lump sum to run off with their new soulmate of the year, and the threat of a several year hassle where they have to pay the expenses for their 50% asset and not get the payoff until it’s sold gives the chump the chance to get a better than 50-50 deal. This can also be used as leverage for custody issues.

      Lawyers and judges are smart enough to determine if a stay at home spouse sacrificed a career or helped put the breadwinner through school. This “no fault” BS is just a way to make their lives easy. There is no way someone who deserts her family including minor children should be rewarded with half of the chumps’s life worth when it’s an amount she couldn’t have earned in 20 lifetimes.

      • One downside of the No Fault and Equitable Distribution states is that a TON of leverage is given to the Masters / Judges. I mean, IMHO, to the point of capriciousness. But you’re right, a good attorney will work that a bit in your favor.

        One thing that I cannot stress enough is that cheaters, again IMHO, tend to hire cheap-ass attorneys, so you need a VERY good lawyer to help nip that shit in the bud. This elongates and delays the proceedings, and raises costs generally as issues from their end need to be fixed. I actually estimated this impact during my D, and my cheating ex’s attorney’s wild goose chases and various errors cost me an additional $5K to get sorted.

  • Maybe this makes it easier to accept: count your lucky stars money is not an issue, even though it sucks like fucking hell to pay this POS, imagine it also meant you had to live from paycheck to paycheck. It doesnt make it less bitter, but maybe it can change the angle of your perspective. And be glad you divorced her after 5 years, imagine how much more she could have taken if you did after 10, 15 etc. See it as an expensive, yet lucky escape. We have a word for it in dutch: “oprotpremie” it roughly translates to “fuck off/get the hell lost fund”.

    Goodluck, and hopefuly with time and as your daughter turns 18 you can cut the bitch out of your life.

    PS I hope you can be a stable dad to your girl because soudns like this woman could really, really fuck her up… maybe take her to you therapist before she hits puberty so he can learn her how to manage her realationship with the mother and teach her what is normal behavior and what isnt.

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