3 Healthy Ways to Talk About Cheating
How to talk about cheating without seeming like a bitter loon? Here’s three suggestions. Speak your truth, but know your audience.
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Hi Chump Lady,
I just read your “If It Feel’s Good, Don’t Do It” post.
What are your thoughts on writing/sharing about experiences with betrayal/recovery in a public forum? When I found out my ex was having an affair with my friend, all I wanted to read were the personal experiences of those who had survived betrayal. I found a few memoirs. I would have appreciated many more.
Obviously that means more chumps would need to share openly about their experiences. This is something I aim and want to do.
What is your perception of the line between healthily sharing our experiences and “looking back at the drama”?
Jana
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Dear Jana,
Life is drama. And all good stories have drama. ...And THEN she pulled a rabid hedgehog out of her purse!
If I had said “stick of gum,” I wouldn’t have gotten your attention. That would not be a story. It would be a recitation of items I have in my purse. But, you were not expecting rabid hedgehog. What will it do next?
The chump problem is we have an abundance of drama. How do we talk about cheating and not come across as loons? What if you married the rabid hedgehog?
Well, that’s an interesting story, Tracy. Tell me more!
Maybe. I’m all for changing the narrative and taking infidelity out of the shadow of taboo topics. However, in the early days, especially when it’s raw, you need to be strategic. Here’s three suggestions on how to talk about cheating in a public forum.
Imagine a judge is reading it.
If you have minor children, or are in the process of a contentious divorce, don’t write anything disparaging in a public forum that could be used against you. If you’re in doubt about what is disparaging, talk to your attorney. There are facts and there is editorializing. I’m all in favor of sharing the facts. “I am divorcing because I discovered my husband has a mistress.” Versus “I am divorcing because my husband is a pathetic dick dribble of a man who would fuck a goat. Actually, he’s on Goat Grindr as hornyboi69.” (link to dating profile.)
See the difference?
Know your audience.
As I wrote earlier, not everyone is interested in the messy details. Innocents do not want the particulars of your ex’s goat fucking inflicted upon them. The more gossipy among them might, but not to support you with kindness, but to weaponize that shit and humiliate you further. It’s one thing to talk about cheating in a place where fellow chumps are looking for support. Like Reddit, or in the CN communities, or even reconciliation sites (if you’re into that). It’s another thing to blast @everyone your cheater’s Schmoopie sexts.
Be a heat-seeking missile with a target. Don’t be a random aerial bombardment. Oversharing is pretty normal in the early, raw days. You might find a sympathetic stranger. But, chances are, you might be further hurt by indifference, or worse, alignment with your ex’s narrative that you’re nuts. Telling helps cull the herd of Switzerland friends, so that’s a plus. But you’ve got all the time to get your story out there. So focus on yourself in the early days, and entrusting some true blue friends. Trust me, word will get out.
Know your truth.
It’s much easier to talk about cheating when you’re further out from it. In the beginning it’s a tsnumai of emotions and you can’t integrate the experience into your sense of self. You might still love this person. You might feel incandescent with righteous rage. Also, you probably have no idea how the story ends. (Spoiler: You triumph.)
In time, it will just become something that happened to you. A traumatic something, but not a rejection of your very being. It’s much easier to speak in clinical terms and know your mind. Infidelity is abuse. I did not drive this person to abuse me. I do not own that. You won’t feel the need to convince idiots otherwise. If they think you’re bitter, who cares? You don’t control that.
Absolutely tell your story — but control your narrative.
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Friday challenge: How do you talk about cheating?
In the early days, I found it helpful to craft one or two text messages and just copy/paste them when relevant to mutual friends. I vented to my close friend who got the messy bits, and she vetted it. It was something along the lines of:
“I know Ex is deeply hurt and upset by the divorce. I understand that and hope he has support in the next step. However the relationship just didn’t work for me anymore. While I don’t think he is a bad person, there were behaviors that I won’t tolerate in a romantic partnership such as engaging with other women on a fetish site. It’s still hard for me to talk about, so I truly appriciate you listening. But on a happier note, how have things been with you?”
A shorter in person message was “It’s been hard for both of us. But the relationship put me in more of a caretaking role then I was comfortable with and he had poor boundries with other women that were not acceptable to me.”
It was far kinder then he deserved, but when he was playing up a sob story then quickly pivoting to hitting on all the women friends who were even a hint of single, he had enough rope to string himself up and ended up banned from many community events for acting out and hitting on people who didn’t appriciate it. I was complimented several times on how I handled things.
I was still an ugly mess, but I saved that vulnerability for my therapist and two best friends. Plus a journal where I rage dumped everything I wanted to say. It’s not fair we have to take the high road and be stratigic in our own communities, but if you can pull it off it pays dividends.
I think that the answer here is “with care.”
You need to know your audience (some are more able to deal with your raw emotion in the early days than others). You need to know whether that what you say or commit in writing might be used against you (my solicitor told me during the Divorce to never say or write anything to Ex-Mrs LFTT that I wouldn’t say in front of a Judge or my Mother in Law). You also need to know why you are saying what you are saying. I have noticed that now (9 years out from D-Day) I am much less likely to mention any of the crazy things that Ex-Mrs LFTT did (I was probably discussing them then because I needed to validate my reality and my childrens’ reality) and much more likely to discuss the impact of those things, how I dealt with them and what I learned (ie I have rationalised what happened and am trying to help others).
Fundamentally though, Chumps need a “safe place” to discuss this issue (and the CL Website is great for this), but they also need to understand that there are some people (and not just Cheaters) who will never get it and should never be included in the conversation.
LFTT
Your last paragraph especially is SO true!
It really is.😁
Lulutoo,
I learned this through bitter experience.
My former best friend (who is also my son’s Godfather) just could not be part of a conversation with me about what Ex-Mrs LFTT had done and the impact that it was having on our son. He went completely “Switzerland” on me, said that he refused to judge Ex-Mrs LFTT and ghosted myself and our son.
The sad thing is that I could not have cared less about whether he chose me or not, or what his view on Ex-Mrs LFTT was; I just wanted to make sure that he knew what he needed to know to better support my son, who was in a very dark place as a result of Ex-Mrs LFTT’s behaviour. He chose to “walk on by” rather than help a young man in his hour of need.
LFTT
What a pathetic former friend. You and your son deserve so much better.
Urg, letting a kid down like that goes beyond playing “Swiss” unless factoring how Switzerland profited from funds and art stolen from Holocaust victims during WWII. But I guess the latter is what most of us mean by “Swiss”– not really so “neutral” in the end since lack of support for victims typically benefits the perpetrator side.
This is so on target for me today. I was just thinking about drama and a friend’s online dating experience (she was showing me what was out there). As to what I said about my divorce, I was perfectly honest about it but used different snippets for different people. Basically after DDay 1 FW wanted an open marriage but I had already been in one for a while I just did not get he memo on it. So I used a version of that. I also used (thank goodness I live in a fault state); “we are getting divorced on the grounds of his adultery” was another one. They could always look it up because it is a matter of public record.
As to divorce drama, I pick me danced for a few steps, I tried the RIC (for about 6 weeks but I was not going to take the blame for FW’s unhappiness and the fact that he could not exit the relationship with honor and dignity by having an adult conversation). In the early days it was hard to have to give an explanation but now it is a lot easier and I can say it with humor and good grace. In the early days, I probably sounded pretty bitter. I am guilty of some emotional vomiting and oversharing but I give myself grace on that because it was early days and I was betrayed in one of the worst ways possible.
Now as to drama, I saw my girlfriend going through the online dating process (which looks like a nightmare) and most of these guys say that they are or they want a drama free relationship. Immediately, I got my hackles up. That is definitely a huge red flag. I only say that because I have things daily which could be construed as drama. For example, on my long weekend last week, I decided to do some work on my yard. Needless to say after trying to do a two person job by myself (ok, I thought I could do it) I injured myself and was bleeding like crazy. I tried what I could and then called my BF (yeah, this is probably drama), he gave me some advice and hopped into his car. About 30 minutes later I was in the ER and came out with five stitches. Was he concerned about the drama? Not at all. Even though we had not planned on seeing each other until the next day, he dropped what he was doing without complaint. There is always some drama from my parents calling me because their internet is not working to my son calling because he needs to know what he should wear for a first date with a girl he thinks is special. My life has shit happening and some of it would be classified as drama by some people but with others it is just a normal life.
There are tons of betrayal stories and they all show the pain and agony of cheating but in the end, the chump finds themselves gaining a life and on a Tuesday sees clearly that life is better without a cheater.
Thank you, ChumpedForANewerModel, for saying what I have always felt. This wanting no drama in new relationships, to me, is bullshit.
I didn’t ask for this awful situation. It was forced on me, and all of my fellow chumps in one way or another. I emotionally vomited about it too much for about 2-4 years. Not proud of that, but I’ve toned it down since then (except for here, although I think I’ve gotten somewhat better. Sorry, you guys hopefully get it and forgive me!😬).
So, I will no longer bring it up unless it’s relevant to the conversation or the situation I’m involved in. And if I do, I try to keep the relating of drama to a minimum.
Case in point: I just went to my 18 year old son’s last major Ultimate Frisbee game at his high school. He thought they (whoever they is) wanted to take a picture of each senior w/his parents. Loathe as I was to be near the FW XW, for my son, I was willing to do it.
Turned out he was mistaken, and I only had to endure her from a (relatively) close distance. The FW XW was on one end of the bleachers, w/our local town parents of the players on our team. I chose to sit further away on the bleachers, in the crowd of the opposing team parents.
I started conversations w/some of the mothers of the opposing team (very few men were present, interestingly enough), and it came out that my son was on the home team. When they asked me why I was sitting w/the opposing teams parents, I simply said, “to get away from my ex.”
I didn’t say anything more, and they didn’t question me anymore. We continued to have lighthearted conversations about the game and our kids. Minimum drama.
But if someone insists on hearing the whole story, I’m not going to hold back. Not going to wallow in it, but I can tell people she cheated on me and our family by fucking her much older, long married (🙄), rich boss, and, after exit-affairing me and pretty much forcing me to divorce her, she’s now convinced him to be “married” to her (four to five years after D-day, I believe. I honestly can’t remember exactly!🤣).
I don’t need to go beyond that. If that doesn’t clue them in that she’s a dishonest, gold-digging woman of shitty character, well…that’s their problem.
And if me having to deal w/that and/or me relating that is too much for someone I’m interested in dating? Guess what? I’m not much interested in dating you anymore.
As Tracy said, we all have to deal w/the drama of being chumps (I will go further. I think life is full of drama. I don’t mind drama, so long as it’s not drama for the sake of being noticed. I just like to know so I can figure out who’s the person I should be supporting).
So, this no drama insistence is, to me, what you said: A red flag. Anyone that’s lived three to four decades or more is bound to have drama from a substantial life. To my mind, if you can’t handle the drama that life has wrought, it means you’re shallow and/or immature. And who needs more of those idiots in our lives? Weren’t our fuckwits enough?!🤣
Wishing everyone in CN, and especially ChumpedForANewerModel, their best possible day and week. Lots of hugs and love to all the newbie chumps. It will get better. It takes some serious navigation, but you can do it.
Focus on looking at the positives in your life, the silver linings. Not toxic positivity, but looking at the glass as half full is way better usually than going into the toxic spiral of the glass is always half empty. It’s a conscious choice to make. Trust me on this. 😊
I am totally with you. I don’t create drama to get attention or to make anyone dance and treat me with kid gloves. The issue is some level of drama occurs almost daily. That could be anything from my toilet not working right to a flat tire or a broken leg. Anyone who expects daily life to be without issue is definitely not living in reality (or at least not the same reality I am in).
My bestie and I were talking about things like that over dinner n the weekend. We have a mutual acquaintance that is deeply in debt and keeps getting more debt. Mostly because he has to have immediate gratification and can do it on credit. That would be a drama I would avoid at all costs. The underlying issue with this individual is they want everything now and refuse to do the adulting. I suspect everything will hit the fan sooner rather than later. I definitely have an issue with that type of drama and refusing to be an adult is a huge red flag for me.
I am at the point where when I do think about the FW it is more a thought of how glad o am that this part of my life is now behind me. Whew!!!
So I admit I spewed…yes I did. Mostly in my church and definitely in my family. That shone the light on all thr Switzerland and mamby pamby cheater excusers/ forgive now folks in the flock. That made it easier for me because all the helpers came out of the sky and people I never expected stuck by me! I got a lawyer in an urgent way and had no idea she was 29 (.she told me she was 32) and she did not know how to do all the crazy husband safety things, but her experienced paralegal did, so she knew everything I needed to do and not to do. I listened to her and she saved me over and over again!!! My lawyer did save me at the end!! I got a therapist and got rid of the one who had advised me to stay and that “sex was important to men.” Even when I described abnormal ways.. She also normalized my husband’s predatory bent.. Sad but they are out there. So I talk now that IT IS ABUSE, AFFAIRS ARE ABUSE LYING IS LYING UNDERGROUND BASEMENTS hurt families and I keep a poker face. I tell my story to those who ask and don’t waste my breath on others. Once I called down I am more effectively calling out the ignorant but leave it at that. Never wrestle with pigs you both get dirty but the pigs LOVE IT!
Calmed down!
This is so on target for me today. I was just thinking about drama and a friend’s online dating experience (she was showing me what was out there). As to what I said about my divorce, I was perfectly honest about it but used different snippets for different people. Basically after DDay 1 FW wanted an open marriage but I had already been in one for a while I just did not get he memo on it. So I used a version of that. I also used (thank goodness I live in a fault state); “we are getting divorced on the grounds of his adultery” was another one. They could always look it up because it is a matter of public record.
As to divorce drama, I pick me danced for a few steps, I tried the RIC (for about 6 weeks but I was not going to take the blame for FW’s unhappiness and the fact that he could not exit the relationship with honor and dignity by having an adult conversation). In the early days it was hard to have to give an explanation but now it is a lot easier and I can say it with humor and good grace. In the early days, I probably sounded pretty bitter. I am guilty of some emotional vomiting and oversharing but I give myself grace on that because it was early days and I was betrayed in one of the worst ways possible.
Now as to drama, I saw my girlfriend going through the online dating process (which looks like a nightmare) and most of these guys say that they are or they want a drama free relationship. Immediately, I got my hackles up. That is definitely a huge red flag. I only say that because I have things daily which could be construed as drama. For example, on my long weekend last week, I decided to do some work on my yard. Needless to say after trying to do a two person job by myself (ok, I thought I could do it) I injured myself and was bleeding like crazy. I tried what I could and then called my BF (yeah, this is probably drama), he gave me some advice and hopped into his car. About 30 minutes later I was in the ER and came out with five stitches. Was he concerned about the drama? Not at all. Even though we had not planned on seeing each other until the next day, he dropped what he was doing without complaint. There is always some drama from my parents calling me because their internet is not working to my son calling because he needs to know what he should wear for a first date with a girl he thinks is special. My life has shit happening and some of it would be classified as drama by some people but with others it is just a normal life.
There are tons of betrayal stories and they all show the pain and agony of cheating but in the end, the chump finds themselves gaining a life and on a Tuesday sees clearly that life is better without a cheater.
Dang this got posted twice on waiting for approval!
It was still a good post!
It really was!😁
We had a life in the ministry spotlight. I have stuck to the practice of only responding to caring inquiries from people with whom I feel comfortable sharing the truth. (This is after the news of our divorce went public). They have to ask me about it. And then how MUCH I share depends on how safe I feel that person is.
Those who haven’t bothered to check in with me – and that is the *majority* of the nearly 1000 people in our network – don’t know a thing about the infidelity. I figure if they can’t even get in touch with me they probably can’t handle the truth. I cut them out, sadly in many cases. But my closest, trustworthy friends and family members know all the dirt. Thank God for the solid gold people in my life!
Took me 2 years to get from crying and retching crazed-sounding panic-loaded communication to more matter of fact or clinical way of telling my story. As you can tell by many of my comments in the last 2 years, I’m still working on getting to “Hmm, yeah, that happened to me”.
The topic of this post also helps me because I’ve been working on accepting that eX told everyone that “I’m crazy” and I’ve been working on supporting myself regarding my right to tell my own story to whomever I wish, and refuse to accept shame for this. It’s my own fact-based narrative of “what happened to me.”
I was “lucky”. I was stuck living with my FW for a long time. And I was afraid of him. And he definitely didn’t want me telling people the truth. So I was unable to spew my guts to just anyone, I was too scared. I didn’t tell a soul for an entire year. That definitely had it’s drawbacks, I swear I have PTSD from the experience. Anyway, I was afraid to anger him while stuck in that home with him. I didn’t want to email or text my friends because he might see. So the first time I felt safe talking was when a year in, I went away for a weekend with a friend. I spilled everything. But she was a safe person to spill to. A longtime close friend. I scared the crap out of her and SHE told my other friends what was going on. He consistently asked if I told anyone and I consistently protected myself and said NO. They all knew not to send me anything in writing that belied the truth. They also didn’t act differently around him. (Which if you are lucky enough to have very good friends, you know how hard that was, they wanted to put him in the ground and instead, smiled to his face)
After spilling to my closest friend, it made it easier to be very careful who I talked to. I had my safe place to vent. I do fully understand the chumps that tell everyone. I could have talked all day every day. It was all I could think about. But that didn’t feel safe, so I didn’t do it.
The thing is, he made me scared. And now that is going to backfire. We are getting ready to proceed with the legalities of the divorce, and he has no public spewing of mine to use against me as it doesn’t exist. I also found CL/CN at some point and took the “if it feels good, don’t do it” to heart. I’ve been the ideal chump. It was the one bit of control could grasp and I took it. I’m certain that is the only reason why I didn’t spill to everything that had ears in a 20 mile radius.
I’ve been advised that when we go before the legal folks, I need to remain very calm and not get emotional. That will be easy to do because old habits die hard and I am still afraid to say everything I feel to him or in front of him. So I kind of feel like he made me scared, and now that fear will help me remain calm and that is NOT good for him. Karma?
It will be interesting to see how all this goes. He is really manipulative. So I could see him appearing so calm and charming in front of the judge. He is incredibly charming and he will use that. But at the same time, he isn’t going to love anything the judge has to say. The divorce will take away a lot of the control that he still exerts over me. He is not going to like that. So I’m not sure that he will reman calm. But I will.
Once my decree is signed and the ink dries, I will feel free to say whatever I want. But enough time has passed that I think I will be able to take the “say less” path. I am also fond of the “Well, I didn’t like his girlfriend” route. I guess we’ll see.
Jesus. SortofOverIt, you’re amazing. I don’t think I could do what you’ve been doing, or deal w/what you’ve been dealing with. That’s an extra-awful situation to have to deal with.
My best wishes to you on getting away from your abusive fuckwit, and on getting the freedom and life without him you deserve. Talk to us all you want. We’re here for you, too, but I’m glad you have that group of friends. Lots of love and hugs to you.😊
Thank you. I don’t feel particularly amazing, as most of my behavior has been formed in fear, it wasn’t how I would have liked to handle things, but I was too afraid to do anything else. But I am in therapy and I am making progress. He currently has a girlfriend (we are separated) that I am not supposed to know about (not the AP, that fizzled out) so I’m hoping the “shiny new love stage” will distract him a bit and the divorce process can maybe be less horrific. If it doesn’t distract him and it is as hellacious as I expect, no real loss there as that was inevitable. But the only way to the other side is through this mess, so one way or another, I have to get there.
As a DV advocate I was warned about how offenders– no matter how slick and charming they usually are– may lose their composure in courtroom/legal settings if they have to sit silently listening to their victims’ versions of events but obviously without being able to use their usual silencing/chaos-sowing tactics to stop it.
I saw this happen several times and my guess is that, unless an abuser is an extreme psychopath (statistically rare) or stinking rich and can afford to pay attorneys to coach them over and over to avoid this reaction, they almost all palpably implode which can send a chill through anyone seeing this and caused armed marshals to shift their hands closer to their guns.
I think it makes the case about how deeply Cluster B types (other than the rare extreme ASPD types) manage to invest in their own confabulated bs renditions and cover stories to the point that many are genuinely caught off guard and violently stricken with cognitive dissonance by hearing the truth about events they actually participated in but had erased from memory and overwritten. Go figure. It’s like they never see it coming.
Anyway, this is the one setting where this really works for victims so don’t let yourself get so intimidated that you leave out the more egregious stuff. Yes he may react to hearing this in a scary way but– yay– finally others may see the charming mask drop.
That is something my therapist brought up. Hers was a more casual observation, that lawyers and judges often will see through the “act” quickly because this isn’t their first rodeo.
I just find it rather funny that I will have the ability to remain calm and measured because for years he has forced me to think before I talk, to avoid setting off the rage monster. And now that is a skill that will serve me well, and him not so much.
The mediator will ask what the grounds for divorce are, and that alone is going to make him crazy. He is not going to appreciate having his cheating be one of the first things that a stranger learns about him. It’s not like we need to get into details, but his infidelity is a basic fact that needs to be stated. There won’t be room for him to counter with his reasons why it is my fault he cheated. He won’t like that. Not at all. And if he’s done any research, which with him is a 50/50 chance, he will realize that the infidelity part will be public record. So let’s hope for his sake he told his new gf the truth. (But I doubt he did)
I am so nervous for what lies ahead, but I am equally eager to get it over with. I’ve been dreading it for so long, and it’s eating uptime that I could be healing and living.
Your description of having to remain calm and measured in the face of a rage monster for so long reminds me of Stephen King’s Rose Madder, a quirky little horror novel about a DV survivor. In the story, a woman escapes her terrifying batterer and finds that all the breath control she’d relied on to survive the abuse for years has given her an edge as a voice actor and radio narrator.
Spoiler: the protagonist wins the big showdown with help from the magical spirit realm of course. I suspect you will as well except you’ve got CN as spooky spirit realm allies. {{{{ }}}}
I respect the, ‘shout it from the rooftops’ mentality, but that isn’t how I ultimately chose to handle it–the second time around. First dday, that’s exactly what I did and having experienced the pros and cons of both sides, the quieter version of handling it worked much better for me.
When asked, I never shy away from being honest but I don’t automatically spill details to just anyone. What I say directly correlates to how well they know me. The ones who know me well and/or cared, loved and supported me, got (or already knew) the brutal truth. Pretty much everyone else got homogenized quips designed to feel like answers but really weren’t.
I was also much more careful about oversharing the second time around. I did admittedly vent with a few in the early days, but I was also careful to limit the amount of time I used any one person for venting. Instead I did the lion’s share of venting with a professional, and picked my moments with my closest friends. The reason I changed how I handled it is because after learning the hard way that ‘supporter fatigue’ is a real thing, I didn’t want to run the risk of negatively impacting any of my close relationships like I did the first time around.
And to give you an idea of what I mean about negative impact–I had 2 close friends who grew tired of my company because I used every opportunity with them as a chance to vent. One of them started making excuses to NOT do things with me and on the rare occasion when we did see each other, she’d make comments about my needing to ‘get over’ it. I didn’t take those things well and our friendship deteriorated to the point of non-existence. The second friend was honest about not being able to shoulder so MUCH of my venting anymore. It hurt and I felt like she was essentially abandoning me at the hour of my greatest need–but we muddled through, even though in the end we weren’t quite as close as we once used to be.
In hindsight, I don’t blame either of them. I was a needy, hot mess and constantly put all that went with that emotional state at their feet. The reciprocal nature of friendship went missing on my part. I wasn’t concerned with their lives or issues anymore because mine were too overwhelming. Subsequently, I totally missed [ignored] the not-so-subtle clues that they sometimes needed a friend too. And more importantly, they also needed a little more breathing room away from my mountain of despair.
The second time around I stuck with the ‘Friends Aren’t Professionals’ mentality. They do love and care, and will listen and support– but they also rightfully have limits, lives and issues of their own. This time, I respected those things and chose to lean on a trained professional to help me navigate the mountain of despair. It made a HUGE difference in all ways that truly matter.
This year I decided to make my ministry to chumps more visible in my faith community as I decided to launch a faith-based support group. To do this, I had to have the language to make it clear my stance on the matter. So, I decided to talk about “infidelity abuse” survivors. Labeling abuse up front makes it clearer as to why we have strong feelings about it as well as helps avoid the annoying “both sides” isms some like to do on the matter. (At least, it makes them look like the jerks that they are when you appropriately label it abuse).
Yes, this is wonderful.
Blazing trails as always. I think you’re going to save lives.
That’s wonderful, DM. How has the response to it been?
It’s a small group… anywhere from 7-10 people… but folks seem to really appreciate the material! I wanted to keep it under 20 people so that all could participate. So, this is a good number for the inaugural class.
I spewed my pain on occasion. I did meet a new friend – I had just met her but she was a fellow chump who listened and 6 years later we are still good friends. .
It has helped to read other peoples stories. I don’t know how I would tell mine. My problem is that the whole mess was so traumatic that I struggle to put events in chronological order. I worked with my therapist to make a timeline. I have to refer to it often as I cannot remember what happened when.
Spoonriver,
I keep a document that includes some details about some things that happened and when, because my memory is terrible and I need something concrete to reference. I often chaulk my memory issues up to aging, but in this case, I think the trauma mixes it all up.
I think my reply (because of a quick edit) went to SPAM because it disappeared with a spam message.
Sorry about that. Email me if you think your comment went to spam and I can fish it out if it’s there.
I’ve said “The divorce was my decision, but he really didn’t give me a choice.”
NOBODY has asked for details.
As much as I’m completely avoidant about talking face to face to people I don’t know well about this stuff, the monetary aspects of the fuckwitty saga and FW’s pecuniary integrity or lack thereof often become relevant in legal and financial contexts.
Depending on legal and financial pros to do a good job always makes me feel especially vulnerable to the typical biases and stereotypes people have about chumps so my focus is usually about stymying potential biases with a polished spiel. To be honest, I think I’ve learned from observing FWs and other types of toxic “triangulators” the very difficult Jedi mind trick of how to make a third party hate your ex and any side dishes involved just enough to want to help protect you and your children while still appearing “likeable” and sane yourself.
Talk about a narrow target or a high wire act but it’s unavoidable in a conflict where there are, in fact, “sides” and you critically need someone to choose yours. No wonder only people with Cluster B personality disorders tend to be good at swaying bystanders since they spend their whole lives practicing ways to triangulate against their own victims while regular schmos and victims typically muff it. I’ve always been amazed at how appealing faux victims can make themselves appear compared to actual victims. The former might let one elegant tear slide down their cheek as they tersely tell their fake tale of woe while real victims are ugly-crying or quasi-catatonic or babbling and oversharing.
Anyway, what I’ve learned is that, in short, if you have kids, make it mostly about what your kids suffered due to infidelity and financial abuse instead of yourself. Not even the biggest cheating apologist is going to cite a parent for defending their kids nor defend a cheater or side piece who siphoned critical resources from children. This might be trickier for people who don’t share kids with an abusive ex but I’m sure there’s some manner of “outsourcing” the damage in that case (what they did to the cats, their own mother, etc.).
The subject just came up again when I consulted a new lawyer about trusts for my kids. In those types of situations where I need the individual to devise ways to protect money from FW, it risks having to editorialize at least a little which in turn risks falling into the bitter bunny trap, ugh. The latter isn’t just a bad optic but can compromise how a professional treats you in important ways. So is the optic that you knowingly married a freak and spent an entire marriage eating shit. To counter this, I will first throw out a little redemptive crumb and say that, though FW’s parenting seemed to improve when he stopped drinking after the affair came to light and he cut things off with fellow alcoholics like the AP, I still base every decision on how how irrationally and dangerously he suddenly began behaving during his affair. “How crazy are we talking?” is usually the next question so I’ll joke about how– like every other betrayed spouse on earth– I thought for sure FW had brain cancer for awhile but the tumors turned out to be named Debbie and Jack Daniel’s.
That usually gets a laugh and I go on to explain about the embezzling and hiding of assets during the affair as briefly and neutrally as possible while bringing it back around to protecting the kids, the kids, the kids.
It always makes me feel a little calculated and gamesy to consciously orchestrate people’s reactions, especially traipsing so close to the kind of “crazy smear” that abusers always engage in. Never mind if it’s actually true in the case of FWs, it still feels like a social gray zone. But I’m not kidding that, for me, the stakes of being “liked” and seen as the sane parent and “innocent party” (yet not an idiot or easy mark) really do have to do with my kids’ welfare so this isn’t a game to me. It’s not chumps’ fault that abusers in general started this eternal impression management war.
This is really good advice. A number of people have said things to me like, “if he wanted to leave the marriage, that’s one thing, but what sort of person does that to their *kids*?!”. And the way that brushes aside what I’ve gone through is a little shit sandwich. It feels shitty to have my entire nightmarish upending of my life discounted that way. There’s a sense lying behind these kinds of casual dismissals of, “what you have gone through is universal, expected, and unremarkable. No-one cares.” And they’re right, the cruelty towards the children is the most heinous thing. But it smarts to have people who you think would care about you let you know they think you should shut up and take it.
“if he wanted to leave the marriage, that’s one thing, but what sort of person does that to their *kids*?!””
Chumpty,
Yeah, this is a shit sandwich. I think about this a lot. If my FW had fallen out of love with me and realized he wanted out of the marriage and got out BEFORE shopping for my replacement that would still have been devastating. Obviously, that would have been the morally and ethically correct way to handle things. But ‘i don’t want to be married to you anymore” is not something that anyone wants to hear and sometimes I wonder if it would hurt any less than what he ACTUALLY did. And I think that is something that the non-chumped bystanders are getting confused. They see cheating as “they wanted out of the marriage” and don’t see that HOW they get out matters. Because sure, after 20+ years and kids, it hurts a lot to have your spouse choose someone else over you. But for me and many others here, it’s the betrayal and the lies and all that comes with that that really hurt. Knowing that they were carrying on right under your nose while you were out Christmas shopping for the kids, and doing laundry and talking care of them over yourself THAT is where the pain really sticks.
Also, what about the chumps who had FWs that didn’t have a sort of “jump off AP”, but rather were “just” having one night stands, or seeing sex workers? A lot of those FWs were NOT actively trying to get out of a marriage, they were cake-eating.
I totally agree. That dismissive attitude would be completely intolerable from anyone close to me.
Even for a supposedly kid-centered perspective it misses the bit where the traumatized partner is the one who mostly has to raise said kids. I mean, wow, what a great way to enrich and stabilize kids’ lives– embezzle assets from their primary caregiver, subject them to coercive control, smear campaigns, years of stress-induced insomnia, an STD and post traumatic stress!!! And, while we’re at it, let’s do this to parents in a world that mostly won’t understand how catastrophic the experience of domestic abuse is for an added bit of torturous social isolation haha.
It’s a total Roman circus. Set the lions and alligators on someone and see how well they parent then. And if the kids are affected by stress and develop contact trauma in this situation, thumbs down!
For better or worse, my social sphere had already been filtered by previous disasters prior to the chump experience and there were no superficial twats left to give me thumbs down as I ran around the arena dodging fanged beasts. The friends that remain “get it”– even the bit about having to keep a wall up and either divulge nothing or “parse my narrative” for people I’m not close to.
If I’m forced for practical purposes to divulge anything, that information is going to curated and boiled down to brass tacks like a professional PR campaign. If I had to send out one single soundbite about myself within this situation, it’s “devoted, great mom.” Not because it’s the whole truth about me or the situation but because I recognize there’s an age-old ideological war raging between paradigms and perspectives regarding domestic abuse with abuse apologists/victim blamers on one side and survivors and survivor advocates on the other. In the end, the “sane parent” image is simply the most bulletproof.
In a better world it wouldn’t be necessary to be so circumspect so I kind of see survivors who aren’t cautious at first and open-heartedly tell their stories (and get burned) as probably very well adapted to a better, healthier world. No crime in that. It’s actually a lovely, trusting, optimistic trait. Unfortunately though repeat experience in a not so perfect world, I’ve learned that lovely trait can put good people in danger.
I hate it but it’s the way things are for now. I really want to help change the paradigm to make the world safer for survivors of all stripes but I think it’s better to do this through collective advocacy where it’s more likely to connect with people who come pre-filtered.
Yes, the only thing to do is to acknowledge the necessity of a sound bite, and nothing more! For me, just forming a sound bite in the midst of all the utter chaos — getting anywhere close to perspective — took me literally years. It was like coming to after being mugged. I was at a loss to describe what had just happened in less than, like, 5,000 words, ha!!
My ex won a “Einstein” (Exceptional Ability) green card for his prowess at PR and narrative-building. So good luck going up against him! But I will trot out my sound bite anyway whenever I can, just for form’s sake if nothing else. To hear the sound of my own voice once again…
The director of the advocacy program I worked with said that, for many survivors, “processing” what happened to them is like being forced to gnaw through a heaping platter of whalebone and piano wire. If one’s teeth don’t break and one doesn’t internally bleed to death in the course of trying to digest these indigestible events, one can end up with a virtual diamond of a narrative, the point of which is not so much to win the sympathies of others (though this is certainly critical to survivors of anything) but to kill the spellbinding sense that all abusers manage to grind into their victims– the idea that victims “kinda brought it on themselves.”
Consequently, one of the exercises recommended for survivors preparing for legal showdowns was to try to recall and write down every single shitty, intimidating, manipulative, unsettling thing their abusers ever said or did going back to the beginning, then review how this intimidation campaign may have flooded them with stress and confusion and affected and limited their choices all along. These narratives could end up 50 to 100 pages long as the floodgates of memory would open for the first time and people would start recalling things they’d never previously categorized as coercive. Then survivors were urged to re-read their own narratives whenever they woke up flooded with anxiety or hopelessness since those feelings can be a signal that shards of blameshifting were still lodged and festering.
Though this service consulted with mental health professionals, this wasn’t really a clinical exercise but more a pragmatic one to get survivors so squarely and solidly on their own sides and so thoroughly convinced of their own relative innocence that, once in legal setting, even the most evil, aggressive, mind-fucking defense attorney in the world couldn’t rattle them into babbling defensively or incoherently or conceding to partial fault because that’s mostly what survivors are brainwashed into believing due to bad therapy, bystander bs and blameshifting abusers. It was basically like cult deprogramming.
The odd thing is that even when you know that half of recovering from trauma is shedding the blamey brainwashing or what is clinically called “projective identification” (where, for reasons no one quite understands, victims are typically spellbound into feeling “guilty” for the crimes committed against them), it’s still necessary to deprogram all the insidious shit you internalized without realizing it– probably to the degree that fear makes everyone “stupid” and blind. Which is exactly why abusers are merchants of fear and blame. It bloody works.
As advocates we didn’t always get to see how everyone’s story ended once they broke free or how these processing exercises helped but I did see one former client of the service doing a press junket on CNN to explain how she brought down her violent public official dad. When she first approached the service, she was a monosyllabic teenager who only spit out bits and pieces of a horror story of beatings and witnessing her mother being battered and wouldn’t give a name. It was hard to tell if she was absorbing anything through the “yeahs,” “uhs” and “nahs” but we gave her the same recommendations, reading materials and feedback as everyone else.
Apparently she not only absorbed everything but turned herself into some kind of survival sensei. Even when cable hosts would play devil’s advocate and run clips of her master-of-the-universe dad denying the allegations, claiming his daughter was shaking him down for money and disavowing a videotaped assault, the former client wasn’t rattled and would just sigh and gracefully jujitsu her father’s arguments in a way that made it clear she knew her own story inside and out. I thought she’d achieved the holy grail of traumatic processing (which frankly I can’t claim to have done) which is when someone’s emotional and intellectual understanding is so deep they don’t even have to explain anything at length to erect a sort of impenetrable truth fortress and can do it in as few words as possible.
It wasn’t the first time we’d seen someone who first approached the service all wild-haired, wild-eyed and incoherent who would later turn out to be fiercely intelligent. But I never saw such an extreme turnaround because we usually dealt with survivors of adult relationship abuse, only some of whom had grown up with abuse from childhood whereas this girl had never known anything else. On top of this, her father had so much power most adults would never have dared cross him. But she secretly got the fucker on tape and wrote everything down while still living under the same roof with a monster. Then as soon as she could move away, she “let it all be done” (to quote the film Elizabeth). Then she rescued her own mother and brother.
It really impressed me how people are only really “born” and able to access their own intelligence from the moment they can start to tell the full truth about their lives– or even think it to themselves– in defiance of this sort of brainwashing cult of silence and blameshifting that controls so much of the world. I certainly don’t thank abusers for the “growth experience” but instead levy more tax on them for making our lives and experiences so indigestibly complex that we risk breaking our teeth trying to sort it. But once some have done it, they can end up with very sharp teeth and guts of steel.
“I thought he had brain cancer, but the tumors turned out to be Debbie and Jack Daniels.” I nearly snorted my coffee. That’s such a great answer, and it’s funny as hell!
The best punchlines have the benefit of being true, right? 😀
Jerry Seinfeld tells his kids, “If you want to complain, complain, but make it funny.”
In the early days(first 60 days after D-Day) it was definitely a lot more of the “oversharing mess” I tend to associate with recent trauma. I also had a pretty significant family issue a month after D-Day which did not help me betray anything looking rational. I did not blow up the issue on social media-I did release a pretty coded statement T+1 days after D-Day and left it at that apart from quietly changing my relationship status. The closest to me took the worst of the blast during the “complete dissociative mess” phase.
9.5 months out, the most detail comes out both here and in therapy. I might make one statement per gathering with friends or family that may or may not be snarky in nature. The true joys of “no contact” means “no new developments” and my healing process progresses.
As I did not “tell the world” there are still people that ask about her not knowing what happened-I use the pretty short and canned “she betrayed me and left” and am happy to answer questions if there are follow-ups-generally how long it went on(“1.5 years that she copped to, she had blurry boundaries pretty much the whole time looking back on it”), when I first suspected(“she asked for an open relationship 9 months before things imploded after I suspected that one of her male friends was making overtures”), and how is she?(“fuck knows, I don’t talk to her anymore.”)
This usually is accompanied by the bile shockwave-“you were so in love with her!”, “you did so much for her!”. And the compulsory “do you feel better off?” Yes. Yes I do. “You’ll meet somebody better.” Jury’s out, but…thanks?
I confess having some difficulties with the “overshare” valve at times-the joys of trauma.
Have a Fuckwit Free Friday!
“The true joys of “no contact” means “no new developments” and my healing process progresses.”
Once things are final, I will be able to go as No Contact as one can with kids. And the best part will be as you say “no new developments”. Currently we are separated and there are constantly new developments and it is not helpful to my healing at all. There is always some new thing to tick me off, make me sad or put me down the rabbit hole of guessing what is going on. Case in point, he recently made it known he wouldn’t be around at all on a weekend. Then I had to ponder “did he go away for the weekend somewhere nice with the secret gf, or did he just maybe go stay at her place for weekend?” Idon’t NEED that.
Indeed! My own PTSD notwithstanding, the real hell of D-Day and the subsequent life changes were that it seemed like every day was some new, fresh hell. Some revelation of “so THAT’s what happened!”, some new piece of info from forensic book keeping, some new (literal) mess that my FW left behind. I have since heard the aphorism that a divorce is getting into a bad car accident every day for two years. I think about that a lot.
The further I get from that day, the easier that all gets to swallow. It’s a red-hot knife in my brain whenever she reaches out(and to a lesser extent when I open my mailbox-she never changed her mailing address-but that is what the Return to Sender stamp is for!). I have since stopped caring what she does or how she is doing-mine forfeited that right and yours did too.
Yes, though I generally clam up with strangers, I had to have a manual override installed on my overshare valve around certain supportive friends so as not to wear out their understanding and especially when talking to lawyers on the clock.
Come to think of it, you know who are the best kind of friends to have around when you’re in danger of obsessing and oversharing? Cheerful, slightly ADD chatterboxes who are juggling complex lives and have a lot on their plates who, though they may be bursting with empathy and wise feedback, will always naturally bring conversations back around to their own problem solving.
I can’t resist that someone is trusting me with those things and it’s really the most painless, graceful way to get lured out of hyperfocusing on my own crap. I have friends like this who make going through drama almost fun. You bring up something you’re dealing with and they listen for a while and share some intuitive insights but at some point exclaim “Oh! That reminds me of such and such and oh man are you going to love what I did! Blah blah blah.”
God bless the people who are cheerfully adjusted to battling adversity and coming out the other side.
Aye. As Oliver Sacks reminds us, blessed are they that make their neurology work for them AND other people!
Hmm, really good thing to ponder on… thanks for the quote.
I don’t talk about it anymore, except with other chumps I know and on here. The friends I’ve made in the neighborhood since moving away from FW don’t know. Only if somebody asks me outright why my marriage broke up will I tell now, unless the person is a chump and brings up what happened to her/him, in which case I will share my experience.
I learned a sad lesson from sharing in the early days; that I can’t even trust some of my own family, people who claim to love me, to have empathy. So why would I trust anybody? However, if people ever do ask me about it, and I just tell them what happened in a matter of fact way, yet they still want to consider me a bitter Betty and avoid me, good riddance to them. I’m prepared for that and I’m not going to hide it.
I wasn’t going to get any sympathy from remaining nepo-baby relatives. That extended clan are basically the Roy family from Succession– toxic, depressingly entitled and cruel, can’t even stand each other and have no real friends.
But I saw that writing on the wall long before the cheating saga due to how they treated my formerly very ill and disabled son. It’s the reason I detached from them with a big sign of relief immediately after the last of the oldest generation in the family passed and there was no more reason to put on a show of tolerating the not-so-great next gen in order not to stress the elderly.
I don’t know why but it actually amuses me a little that I never once flamed those relatives over their awful behavior and therefore left them mystified about my sudden disappearing act. I think it’s because I know there’s this Citizen Kane effect where extreme cognitive dissonance erodes people’s mental stability over time as they keep building their world view on a bs house of cards. For instance, I know for a fact they tell themselves and anyone who will listen that I ghosted everyone once the older generation died because there was no more inheritance to be plied. But deep down they know the true reason is precisely that I’d never had my hand out which is frankly the only remaining reason their sycophants tolerate them. Sort of sad actually but mistreatment of my children is one thing I can never forgive.
Here are some things that helped me:
1) Thankfully I already had a great therapist. She had been our family therapist for eleven years when DDay hit. Though therapy did nothing to prevent him from being a liar and a cheater and a thief and a criminal, post DDay it turned out that the time spent in therapy with him was the ultimate anti-venom, and still is, for his pathetic and predictable cheater behavior of blaming and rewriting history. She stopped seeing him as a client because of his utter and abject incapacity to be honest. For a long time after DDay, I was seeing her three times a week to stay glued together. 😪. I still see her, I love her, I trust her.
2) Try to confine talking about this to people you can trust. Have a number of them so no one person gets burned out. I felt like hanging out with me was like sitting too close to a raging bonfire or visiting someone in the ICU. I isolated from people in the beginning for a long time. I just could not talk about much else as this is such a huge tragedy and I even got tired myself of thinking about it and talking about it. This site is an invaluable resource for processing.
3) Beware of talking about this to anyone who has not experienced this! You may find yourself confiding in a cheater, and it might be someone you’ve known a long time and never knew this about them. (Cheating has a way of sorting out your friends and acquaintances.)
4) Stick with facts. No one can accuse you of character assassination when you restrict what you share to the facts. Keeping your side of the street clean reinforces your position as the wronged person. Do not give the cheater or the side pieces any ammo they can use against you; they are desperate for it to justify their jerk moves.
In the “don’t give them ammo” department, here’s something that happened to me. I allowed myself to write ONE text soon after being abandoned in 2021 that said “I don’t want your shitty money”. Well, I was angry, and he refused to tell me whether he was going to send money on any kind of regular basis (no prizes for guessing whether he did!).
Flash forward to 2024, I’m broke and desperate, go to court representing myself to beg the judge to issue an emergency order to get him to send money — and his lawyer puts that 2021 text in the court filing. As proof it’s my fault he doesn’t send any money for the kids, I suppose.
Guess what, the judge denied my request. My husband literally has not sent a dime since November 2023, and very little before that for years. He pays the mortgage on the house he left us in and according to his lawyer and, I learned the hard way, the judge, that’s enough. Groceries, tuition, clothing, activities… those are my problem…! (Of course he deliberately pays the mortgage months late, so I’m constantly getting warning emails…to increase the stress.) (He makes $200K/year and apparently spends it all on himself and doesn’t have any over to spare for me or his kids. Sanctioned now by the court.)
Absolutely, he was just starving for anything in writing from me that would bolster his allegations. Everything I wrote — especially in the beginning, before I understood the extent of the malice — was cherry picked and twisted and served back to me by his lawyer.
Yes I had so few people to tell, it felt as though I was walking around with a huge heavy pack on my back with nowhere to put it down. It ended up putting too much weight on the rare people willing to listen. After a while, I realized I couldn’t really tell my story to anyone: some people just can’t wrap their heads around it, some people resent having to listen (I don’t blame them!), and it’s too much to lay on even willing listeners. So now I just don’t talk about it much to anyone. And that is why I am grateful for Chump Nation.
… I should add another category of people I can’t talk to: for a lot of women I know, my story just hits too close to home (their dad left, or they are living with a cheater and in denial, for example) and they just can’t deal because it brings up painful emotions they aren’t ready to deal with yet.
OT; just wanted to share my joy that the world’s most infamous cheater, Donald Trump, is now a convicted felon. 🗽🎊
🥂🥂
What makes it relevant is specifically that he was convicted of a felony for trying to cover up cheating. I think even chumped Trump supporters can appreciate that this may signal shifting paradigms because, at last, status didn’t protect a FW.
Just to prove I’m not being a hypocritical eco-lefty, go ahead and excoriate RFK Jr. for arguably cheating on his former wife to the point of madness and death. I honestly think that finally calling domestic abusers to account regardless of status or whatever societal “hero pose” they take might contribute as much to saving the planet and humanity as addressing climate change.
100% triggering today. My husband IS DT. I just hate the meta-ness.
Actually, in my case, it’s not just meta, there is actual real-world overlap. My husband produced an investigative story about Trump University and, in the course of producing it, was screamed at by Michael Cohen in an effort to intimidate him. And very effectively, I must say. My husband doesn’t rattle easily, but I still remember the day he came home after Cohen called him up and lit into him. He was upset, a rare occurrence.
So you can see why it seemed improbable to me that he would like Trump, given the background.
… and Trump did not fall apart in court, he’s keeping going! I watch how things go with him because I think it’s the best indicator of how my husband is going to behave. They are the same. Recently I remembered how my husband used to say “no-one knows what goes on behind the [voting booth] curtain” and smirk. I used to think it was funny, but now I honestly wonder who he actually voted for…! He told me once that his best friend said to him, “you voted for Trump, right?”. And I took it for granted that my husband found that as outlandish as I did. But now I see that should have been a warning…! His best friend is a Trump supporter gun collector. Another one of his friends is making a documentary about Allen Dershowitz… in retrospect, he surrounded himself with toxic misogynists! How did I not notice?!
Hah, FW in my case– a lifelong lefty/social democratic from a politically active lefty family– began at least trying to cheat the second Trump was elected.
For some background, it took FW quite a long time to find someone, anyone among the usual office doorknobs and barflies who’d play side piece but it wasn’t for lack of trying. Since most FWs– being narcs– will never typically confess all the times they bat out and get rejected on the meat market before finally “scoring,” I realized I was getting a rare glimpse into that murky world and, furthermore, I thought it was extremely telling.
Forgive me if I ramble on a bit about esoteric themes because I haven’t really worked out my big philosophical take on it all. But my conclusion overall is that radical patriarchal authoritarian leaders are basically like the full moon for every freak and perv in society.
How’s that for a grand statement?
It might explain why some men from classes that may have a lot to lose from the typical policies of typical authoritarian right regimes will still blindly support those regimes. I think it’s because having a radical patriarch-in-chief is a clarion call that, at last, the freaks may be able to take their sexual aggression out of the closet and fly their freak flags high! No more hiding in the shadows! No more shame! Our day has come!!
If the leader in question is known to be rapey, the clarion call gets louder. Hitler was suspected of sexually exploiting and killing his own niece. It never hampered his ascendance. Mussolini was known as a wife-beater and whoremonger. It only brought him more power.
Not that totalitarian leftist dictators can’t be rapey freaks behind the scenes. Kim Jong Un never really bothered to conceal his exploitation of women and perversion which I think explains the fact that North Korea’s rate of rape prosecution is so low that the UN and International Court of Human Rights raised alarms over it.
But it still stands that the radical right simply has more freedom to put out this obvious clarion call to freaks because it’s mostly the right that can openly promote patriarchal values that repress women while most hypocrites on the left (save for Kim Jong Un) have to at least conceal that agenda.
I wager those freaks like your ex who, at least on the face of it, don’t initially seem to support these types of radical patriarchal regimes will start to shift their views– like growing werewolf fangs and fur– under this type of leadership. I thought it was also very interesting that the AP in my situation and her fundy family were staunch Trump supporters and, during his affair, FW’s politics began to shift enough that one of his closest friends actually reared on him in rage.
FW wasn’t even aware that he was starting to sound all Proud Boys libertarian bro or at least apologistic for it. But while it could seem that FW was– like a lot of empty Cluster B ciphers– simply “mirroring” the AP’s views to get laid, this doesn’t account for the fact that the three previous office barflies he’d unsuccessfully hit on were all right wing churchy Jesus cheaters. So my guess is that the shift happened because the political winds changed which enabled his always-underlying, secret patriarchal tendencies to come out of hiding. When the full moon came out, his patriarchal fangs began to grow.
I want to qualify the above because I’m not implying that conservatives are more “rapey” than lefties. I think the takeaway isn’t about which side of the aisle one is on but about integrity and consistency. It makes perfect sense that the politics of people who have no character will be equally vapid, shallow and inconsistent because their politics, like their characters, will always be driven by their darker predilections.
Again, there are honorable conservatives and honorable lefties and then corrupt and dangerous radicals and hypocrites on both sides as well.
And, after all, totalitarianism comes in all flavors. But, while rates of rape and domestic violence and every manner of sexual exploitation tend to skyrocket under both types of totalitarianism, this might be ever-so-slightly modified under the lefty rendition merely because the latter usually has to at least make a pretense of appointing women to public office.
For example, many people who lived under Franco’s dictatorship in Spain reported seeing women openly beaten in the street– even in wealthy enclaves– by their husbands since there were no laws against it, no recourse for victims and women could not legally divorce without losing their children. The same thing was witnessed in Cuba under Castro– the regular sight of a woman being dragged through the street by her hair by a partner. But there was one little difference. In Cuba there was a higher chance the culprit might occasionally get into legal trouble for it, plus women had the right to divorce and retain custody.
By a similar token, the Soviet system ended up with so many female judges in one region that it led the world for domestic violence prosecutions. But, in the Soviet system, in Cuba and under Franco, the overall violence of the states would still be like a “full moon” for every brand of freak so it’s like the female Soviet judges were left shoveling the walk while it was still snowing.
Anyway, sorry for all the unfinished thoughts here. In any case I’m not surprised you ended up boggled over your ex’s politics. No character = no political integrity except for the predictable leaning towards any regime that might promote the most selfish, secret aims abusers.
I didn’t come up with these ideas all on my own. I think what really started to sew things up for me was discovering the films of the Academy Award-winning Chilean director Pablo Larrain like Fuga, Tony Manero and Post-Mortem.
Larrain was actually raised by rich supporters of the violent Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet and seems to have spent his entire career in film trying to distance himself from, analyze and blow the whistle on violent totalitarianism. From his first film Fuga, Larrain seems to have lit upon the idea that violent authoritarianism is synonymous with rape culture and sexual control and dominance. Then he advances a related theme in Post-Mortem, a story about a politically agnostic but otherwise meek and kindly-seeming coroner’s assistant who rapidly transforms into a murderous pervert from the moment of Pinochet’s violent coup d’etat and the environment of permissiveness towards evil this creates. Larrain’s English language films like “Jackie” and “Spencer” carry much subtler versions of the same theme– that excessive power pretty predictably leads to sexual exploitation.
For an interesting deep dive into how an ostensibly “liberal-seeming” individual transforms into an authoritarian freak, I really recommend Post-Mortem.
HOAC, this is all fascinating, thank you! I think may be right about the werewolf effect! To be fair, the Trump ascendancy brought out something in me too. After reading what you wrote, it seems to me that my husband and I diverged radically when confronted with the Trump-era political climate. If he saw it as permission to act out, I, on the other hand, was alarmed and upset and frightened.
Definitely my interest in the Trump phenomenon left him cold. He was NOT interested in discussing it at all and was NOT supportive. Even when he had to work reporting on January 6th for his television network, in its immediate aftermath, something I found historic and terrible, he was just so unmoved and indifferent to it! He was like Melania: He really didn’t care. I couldn’t relate at all.
He definitely changed into a rapey, sadistic, unhinged person. It’s so scary.
(Your — very interesting — description of the ways tyrannical regimes encourage the brutalization of women put me in mind of Elsa Ferrante’s books.)
Whoops got the author’s name wrong: it’s *Elena* Ferrante, not Elsa.
I never read Ferrante (thump thump thump, running to search for titles…)
Watch Post-Mortem. You’ll be like “Oh, ah, this is strangely familiar…”
British primatologist Richard Wrangham makes a pretty compelling argument that whole underlying, “collectively unconscious” point of violent authoritarianism goes back to the feudalism of our ape ancestors for which aggression was almost entirely centered on sexual control. In Wrangham’s view, war is rape and political aggression is rape. It might follow that authoritarian regimes automatically speak to that subconscious monkey instinct in people who are so prone.
It sounds like your ex started to waffle in his politics under that “full moon.”
I am one year post D-day of discovering his secret sexual basement and the extent of his embezzlement. I didn’t know how to tell people about his sex worker fetish and sugar babies—I told only 1 friend last year and a second friend recently. But a month ago the LyingLiar moved out and is openly dating. I am relieved. I don’t have to say anything more than “he left me for a younger woman.” The few “well, the spark dies” comments I’ve gotten I answer with “he told me he was leaving after we had sex that day, we were still naked.”
And thanks to the support from wonderful CN I paused my crying long enough to call a lawyer.
thank you all!
God I hate people who spout that “spark dies” nonsense. I wouldn’t be condemned to getting bi-annual HPV cancer screens for the next decade or more if FW hadn’t been merrily pressuring me for sex through most of his raw-dogging affair with the Tinder-hookup office barfly.
One of the sad things that happened with oversharimg during my divorce process was that of a long time friend. She was the wife of the head Elder whom I heard put in a vote towards forgiveness right away. Regardless of protection order and OW. My friend came over and I talked to her for two hours. After that she did not text anything further about my ongoing HELL nor ask how I was doing. She would send me routine stuff about her kids but zero about my disaster. It was business as usual. Pics of her travels and a howdy for months. Then I got, let’s visit but I said no as I was in hiding and I didn’t trust her not telling her Head Elder husband who could tell mine. It’s been a year now and this friend just texted and said…Hey, let’s go out and do something mindless. I don’t know what’s going on but after spilling so many awful details I am embarrassed . Plus i do not feel like going out with someone who has ignored my pain.This happened with 2 friends. I Told everything and they bowed out. I wonder if I’m rare to lose those whom I thought were caring friends right away…..it’s OK I made new friends who get it and won’t run away. I also get TMI and they have their own lives too.
this goes back to a comment HOAC made about the ability to manipulate people: my husband turned two of my childhood friends against me! Just unbelievable. He waged a pre-emptive disinformation campaign to lay the ground for abandoning me and his children. Called people he’d only met a few times but who were important to me and swayed them to his side with lies! I am so hurt that they believed him and abandoned me, too.
These are people who have known me since I was a child, who only had met him a few times! Yet somehow they turned on me. I still don’t understand.
He was so thorough and methodical. He stripped away as much infrastructure and support as he could before and while he left us. Just by getting to people first and lying.
Maybe borrow a little ecclesiastic/spiritual wisdom from the Taoist saying, “If you want the universe to fill your rice bowl, clean it out.”
I know, very hippie/crunchy/70s. But I still think getting rid of toxic or merely radically shallow people can sometimes make our social spheres more inviting for genuinely decent, ride-or-die people.
Unfortunately, cleaning out our “rice bowls” can be followed by discouraging periods of loneliness and social isolation which are especially hard for recently traumatized people to endure. But we can keep sending out flares to find like minds and kindred spirits and take hope that they are always out there because life is an endurance sport.
Hell of a Chump! You said it so well!! Hippie/ crunchy/ 70s!! Haaaa!! Except I was one of those…but I digress. You are right on Target🎯. I am learning my lesson. With both cheaters it was not an equal= relationship. I gave they took. The same with:” friends “. I initiate calls, texts, emails…one sided. Or after 1st cheater, I became other ” friends” therapist. When the dung hit the fan, I had less than nobody, so started over. However, I made sure I was needed, but No I was not loved. Not by cheater#2 nor the next set of friends. Now I know what the stutter is, what I am doing. That is …..giving and asking nothing back or breadcrumbs back. One sided ..me reaching out, them calling me at all hours. No boundaries with men or woman. Ahhhhh now I see. My friend list will now be ONLY those who equal my energy in caring and only those who check on me as well as I them. I only have so much time and definitely,( due to being run over by a cheater truck and legal worries)only so much energy. Let me now spend my energy on people who honor me as much as I honor them. Those are myA list friends. Some of my As went to D-and F…others came way up to A and B friends. I wrote all the names down and adjusted their grades. This I will do from this day forward. No blaming others, just following the grade book.
I like the grading system lol. I guess we all have to run our own “master classes” and C and below just doesn’t make the grade for admission so to speak.
Back in 1981 when I left my first cheating husband, I told my parents he was cheating. Mother told me I’d made my bed, now I’d have to lie in it. Father told me it’s no big deal, everyone does it. Men have needs. And by the way, he’d been sleeping with my sister, too. My therapist told me marriage is a committment; I needed to look at myself and find out what I was/wasn’t doing that made him “have to look for it somewhere else.” And my pastor said marriage is a sacrament, I needed to forgive him. It was years before I had the nerve to tell anyone else my first husband cheated on me, much less how prolific a cheater he was.
In 1988, I left my second husband just after he’d made a nearly successful attempt to murder me. I didn’t know about the cheating at that point; I was looking for other women, not other men and especially not for Father Steve. I told almost everyone I knew about the abuse and the murder attempt — I lost all of “our” friends, most of my “friends,” and even some of my family. My father tried to talk me into taking Tom back “because he’s a son to us.” (Guess I wasn’t a daughter to them.)
I left my most recent cheating husband nearly 7 years ago. D-day was during Hurricane Irma — did I mention we lived on a boat? When the flood waters receded enough for me to get to shore without swimming, I left. That took almost 6 weeks. I left with what I could carry and my dog. I sobbed and blathered on incessantly to my best friend and to my sister-in-law (who was the one who informed me of the cheating in the first place. He was cheating with his high school girlfriend who was a friend of my sister-in-law.) I sobbed and spilled to the receptionist in the lawyer’s office . . . who informed me that a consultation would be $250 and how would I like to pay? I didn’t have $250 — I had no job, no car, no community, no church and no friends within a thousand miles.
The Cheating Abusive Douche’s best friend from High School was storing a suitcase for me — one for each of us — just in case I needed to dress up to go to a funeral or something. Nice clothes and boats, especially 50 year old sailboats don’t mix. He was the first person I had to tell in “our” friend circle. I said, “He took a little trip down memory lane with Veronica.” And then I added, “And I was sick to death of the constant nitpicking, putdowns and three temper tantrums a day.” Steve and his wife were nice to me — except for the part where they said, “We don’t judge. We don’t take sides — we’re friends with both of you.” (Later figured out the CAD had slept with Steve’s wife, too.) And then I drove a thousand miles with my suitcase, four boat bags and my dog in the smallest rental car offered by Enterprise.
I was still pretty raw five years ago when my divorce was final. I remember telling the judge, when he asked me why I wanted the divorce, “He cheated. And he’s abusive.” And then when he signed the final decree and told me the divorce was final, I couldn’t help but let out a heartfelt, “Thank GOD!” Then I skipped all the way out of the courthouse. (Well maybe “skipped” is a relative term — I was 64 and had artificial knees. Skipping may not have been entirely possible.)
Now I say, “I had a problem with him having a girlfriend,” and/or “I should have left him the first time he knocked me down, but we were anchored out five miles from civilization and there were alligators.” (And yes I did — briefly — consider swimming for it anyway.) Just last week I saw an old friend for the first time in 15 years and casually dropped into the conversation that “I moved back to the midwest because the Domestic Violence Center didn’t allow dogs, and my best friend asked me to come live with her.” From the look on her face, I don’t think she knew the whole story. I guess she does now.
This is the best story of escape!! I thought mine was heroic with locking my cheater out of the house while he was waiting for me to think and forgive him. He was armed so a protection order went to his hotel room at Extended Stay America. Your story was so mighty I cried. I wonder if Tracy would ever think of getting the best stories from us and putting them in her next book…hmm a title..I think your story should open and the title like ..ESCAPE THROUGH ALLIGATORS TEETH..and other stories of gaining a life by Tracy Schorn. I am 100% serious..TRACY?!!! What do you think?
Your story is heroic. I cannot imagine the guts it took to lock him out of the house, knowing he was armed. I would have been so frightened . . . . You are truly mighty!
For Ruby gained a life
It’s not a new concept that not having economic resources can often fatally complicate abuse situations for victims. Not just because survivors have more challenges in surviving but because of the sheer complexity this adds to the narratives of abuse that they try to convey to other people and how this challenges most average, shallow people in understanding those complicating factors enough to muster basic empathy.
Considering how dire the economy has become, I think that’s what the vast majority of survivors deal with. But one thing that inhibits many survivors’ ability to process– much less tell their stories to others– are these kinds of mitigating, cruel factors (like economic constraints and the complex challenges these create).
You seem to be in the process of organizing how to describe your own experience in order to be understood and this is incredibly important. I hope you keep trying to process your story and ultimately find ways to convey your experience to the point that even people who didn’t experience these particular challenges will be forced to understand. I think the rappers call that “representin’.” You obviously have the drive to be understood and that’s a beautiful and powerful start that can likely help others.
Thank you for the kind words.
I’m glad to see all the comments here. I haven’t found anyone to talk to yet except my therapist. I skipped pretty much every social scene for months after Dday. Snuck into work early, locked myself in my office, and tried not to talk to anyone. Every time someone asked “How’s it going?” everything threatened to come spilling out. “Total s**t, thanks for asking!”
I waited a long time to say anything to my family. We’ve never been super close, and never really shared emotions. But we had a family vacation coming up and I didn’t want to come up with a lie for why she wasn’t coming. I put it all into a fairly dry email because I didn’t think I could talk about it. Only my mother and one out of three siblings responded at all, by email, and neither even asked how I was. I’ve spoken to my mom on the phone 3 times since then and not a word was said.
One of the worst parts of all this is learning some of the people you can’t count on to hear what you need to say.
SKB–
One of the hardest things to endure following cataclysmic trauma is that we can never go back to the “Matrix” again, unknow the things we know, unsee the things we saw and be “just like other people.”
I kind of hate the red pill/blue pill analogy because it’s been coopted by Incels and psycho manosphere types but it’s just a simple soundbitey way to describe how there are different realities happening simultaneously for different people.
But guess who lives in the realest of realities? Survivors of all stripes. And guess what is the safest way to live? In reality. This is why it’s often people who live on the lowest rungs of culture– the ones who see the world unvarnished, who see how many “nice people” really aren’t so nice within a power imbalance– are the ones who really understand what needs to be fixed in society and can therefore help improve life for everyone.
But that’s only after someone’s gotten used to being a survivor, knows the lay of the land, is no longer enduring brain-shattering shock from seeing the unvarnished side of things and has managed to find like minds to keep them company along the way.
This transition requires developing a kind of emotional athleticism which takes time. But when first emerging into this experience, it’s all shock and trauma and our social spheres aren’t usually set up to understand and support us through these things. In fact, people still living in the illusory, safe-seeming “Matrix” (where God is in his heaven and only good things happen to good people and the bulls won’t gore us if we’re vegans, etc.) will treat our traumatic experience like a deformity or “baggage.”
This also applies to veterans of war. For all the parades and hero worship, my combat veteran dad would roll his eyes at how most civilians never want to hear the reality of war, only the romanticized glory bs. Not being a dancing monkey who could tell entertaining tales for peanuts or to get laid, my dad would clam up about it when pried for war stories and would only talk about it with those who’d had similar experiences or similarly understood why war is a sad hell to be avoided at all costs. But this is exactly why my father ended up with such stellar people around him and unique and insightful friends and why I was able to grow up with these kinds of role models. It is a qualitative thing. People who “get it” and live in reality are better and safer to be around and more protective of the innocent than stubborn denialists and they carry their own kind of magic with them.
As Doris Lessing put it, “There are only two kinds of people. Those who know how easy it is to be dead and those who don’t.” The upside of this is that no one loves life and appreciates friendship and understanding more than people who emotionally survive hardship. But I don’t think my father’s initiation into this arguably richer perspective was any easier than anyone else’s. It nearly drove him over the edge when first shipped back to recuperate from a bullet wound. It took him two years to start rebuilding a new life around his new perspective and also go through the painful process of detaching from those who stubbornly rejected his experience, including his own family of origin.
When I worked as an advocate for survivors of domestic violence, we would liken the “enriching survivor transition” to growing a third arm. Sure that extra appendage could bench press 1000 LBs and you can multitask like a boss. But at first it’s a big hassle because you can’t buy clothes off the rack and you’re treated like a freak at cocktail parties.
It takes a while start collecting your three-armed brethren. Then you find no one juggles better, no one laughs harder or has better insights and, in the end, even if you’d never grown a third arm, this is the only place you’d want to be and the only kinds of people you’d really want close to you (or watching your kids or managing your money, etc.). You end up sort of being a “third arm snob.”
Since I’m already strangling that quirkly analogy to death, I’ll drag it out with a caveat. One thing to avoid on this journey are the people whose “third arms” are actually just stumps because, rather than genuinely emotionally surviving trauma in the sense of deepening empathy and insights, there are people whose traumatic experiences only taught them to be as bad as what was originally done to them. Those are the abusers and real freaks. Because those types sometimes lead with self pity and pretend to be “empathic survivors” or even “rescuers,” it can be tricky to distinguish. But it’s just another bit of wisdom one acquires in the process.
Unfortunately, you’re in the sucky first chapter of the transition where you look around and realize you’re surrounded by denialists who close their eyes to the world as it is and treat you like a leper for telling your truth. You haven’t yet built your new and stronger world but you came here so you’re clearly trudging in that direction and obviously have so much to offer your fellow travelers. Like my kids’ favorite fridge magnet says, “Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies.”
HOAC – Thank you for these words. Excellent insight.
SKB,
That’s so rough to get the blankness from your family after telling them what you’re going through. I can relate. I just turned 50 and it was just this past year that I really accepted that my family do not want to really ask or know how I am (despite our surface level interacting), because it might mean emotional work on their part that they are unwilling or incapable of doing. I’ve been trying to get them to care my whole life! I hope that because you already knew you weren’t super close with your family, that their silence isn’t a huge shock.
I’m glad you have a therapist to talk to! My therapist keeps reminding me that one of the things I’m supposed to learn from her is what it feels like when someone really is asking after me and “cares.” So far, I’m wary; I pay you to care, I say. But we’re making progress, and I’m making baby steps in my own life toward hanging out with the kind of people who have their own mighty stories and who treasure finding honest people to share realness with. Coming to this site is also me practicing being around good people who like to laugh but keep it real and call out abuse. I hope you find some of those kinds of people, too.
It sucks that you’re feeling like shit and feeling isolated too. Are you now separated/divorced? I’m so glad you’re coming here to type out some of your story!
I’m still wading through the river of shit.
I’m very careful as to who I say anything to because I’m a private person and I know most don’t understand or want to know past a mild curiosity or as a source of good gossip- that ain’t me.
Chump Nation, my brother and a small group of friends and workmates are the people who know the story and are personally invested in me getting through it all.
I’m not concerned what anyone else has to say about me or how I’m handling things- they haven’t a clue about any of this so their opinions mean nothing.
I can’t talk about cheating objectively- I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to, such is the violation and trauma of such an act.
It sounds as though you have a good core support network, Bluewren. I think some of us learn through these traumas that our support networks weren’t the best to begin with, and that we weren’t in the habit of vetting our close company for values. We may have been taught to spackle very early in life! Then when we need our network to absorb a major blow, the weak structures can’t take it.
How wonderful to have a close group of people who are “personally invested in [you] getting through it all”!
Yes I’m very grateful for all of them and hope I can do the same for anyone who needs support with this trauma.
I definitely learned who I could safely talk to and who I couldn’t though.
Tracey, this is so helpful and healing, thank you. “You can’t integrate the experience into your sense of self” — exactly!
I think sharing about infidelity is like sharing about extreme weight loss.
The reason for the original weight gain is personal and requires introspection. The method of weight loss is an individual decision guided by professionals. It helps to have peer support, too.
The process is challenging, but not unique. It does not have to be shared, in detail, for the rest of our lives. And, it turns out, other people aren’t that interested.
In the early months after discovering some of the info around his cheating, I would say somethiing like this…”Oh, I found out he has had a memory problem for a long time.” As we are not so young (he is mid 70s, and I am early 70s), people would often say something like, “I am so sorry, demnetia? Parkinson’s?” Then I would say something like, “No, nothing like that. He forgot he was married.” It was a good resposne for many people. The Switzerland people I just cut out. They are harmful to my life. Now I tell folks who ask or who I think need to know and wil be supportive. The truth is stranger and far more awful than anything I could ever make up. I do not lie anymore and that is important.
” He forgot he was married” Good one.
Another good one is His forgetfulness was causing me issues, he couldn’t remember where his bed was.
I had no minor children and an uncontested divorce settlement, so I could be direct and honest from D Day. I did find it helpful to have some glib quips to trot out for acquaintances (in person) when I did not want to cry. When asked “why are you getting a divorce?” I either said “I did not like his girlfriend” or “Irreconcilable differences and her name is Diane.”
I found Reddit’s r/Surviving Infidelity to be immeasurable helpful in the raw pain early days.
“Goat Grindr” heh. Oh, Chump Lady, you just kill me sometimes!
Thank you for this, Chump Lady. I was surprised – pleasantly so – to see your reply. Really appreciate your thoughts here.