Better Coparenting with FWs Through Technology?
Coparenting technology has come a long way. Elevate your gray rock game! I think the Universal Bullshit Translator might be out of a job. Did you know you can use Chat GPT to decode manipulation? Check this Facebook post from Parenting with Narcissists and Sociopaths.
All hail this mom! Slayer of Fuckwits!
If only this technology existed when I was coparenting with a FW. Instead of sticking my head in the mindfuck blender, I could’ve used artificial intelligence to decode those obnoxious emails. I would’ve had the validation of science that I was dealing with a manipulative jerk.
Also, think of the savings on Lebkuchen. I have to feed the Universal Bullshit Translator exotic German confections to get these kind of results.
So, your Friday Challenge is to tell CN about how you use technology to deal with FWs. If you don’t have children together, share how you blockety-block-blocked them. (Is there an app for that?) If you bred with a FW, give us your best gray rock tips. Got some coparenting technology you’d like to share, like Family Wizard?
And if you’ve ever used Chat GPT to decode mindfuckery, I want to hear from you. This idea has got to catch on. I love it!
TGIF!
I once used a free sentiment analysis tool to analyze some of X’s emails vs mine. He always writes to me these LONG missives that, to me, feel sarcastic, disdainful and accusatory–even about topics as simple as coordinating the purchase of new school uniforms. He always starts with Dear Maisy L and a “I hope you are well” and signs off with Kind Regards, FW. However, in between are five pedantic paragraphs basically calling me a shit mother. I make every effort to be neutral and as short as possible in my responses. I often use bullet points only. It then leads to him accusing me of being rude because I don’t do the performative greetings and sign offs. Anyway, I started at one point to wonder — am I rude? (I guess he can still manipulate my emotions to some degree.) So I tried this analysis tool that really just gives you a global rating of positive, neutral and negative on a text. Indeed, his emails are OVERWHELMINGLY negative and mine are neutral. It’s hard after the chump experience hits you over head to learn to trust yourself and it was great for me to have that confirmation. I wish I could remember what tool it was – I just googled and didn’t find anything available for free.
Genius, MaisyL! I would like to have done that during the divorce. Now I think coparent X has stopped bothering to manipulate (since I learned to ignore).
I intentionally dropped the performative greetings (I don’t write either of our names; it’s in the to/from boxes of an email and I don’t text him unless it’s urgent). I didn’t know if it pissed him off but who cares? I did it because that’s what I felt like doing.
I had this issue for a very short while. XH decided to attempt to vilify me for not asking questions with a “?” (Statements were given instead such as “wondering if you could…”) He framed it as me being aggressive and threatened to stop sharing calendar invitations. Okay. I called him out on his bullshit and said I would manage my own calendar then and still sent him event invitations because I’m not a petulant man-child grasping at straws to make the other person look like the bad guy. I keep emails short and factual. They will perceive any dropping of formality as mean because impression management/you’re showing them it’s only business now and there’s no kibbles for them to chow down on.
It might have been Grammarly, there is a free online version and it’s always been pretty good at interpreting tone.
Coparenting can be easy. Keep EVERYTHING separate. Holidays, birthdays, etc.
Communicate by text or email kids only. Ignore anything else. Where is it written you have to respond to every thing? Nowhere.
Pick ups, drop offs only take a couple minutes. You don’t go into their home or allow them in yours.
This leaves no room for arguing, etc.
The only problems that arise is if the betrayed spouse can’t let go or establish and keep boundaries.
I view this approach as an application of the serenity prayer (to accept the things you cannot change, you must gain the wisdom to know what they are). The saddest part is that one of the things you cannot change is that FW’s can’t be counted on to do the right thing.
But anyway, I love that ChatGPT gave the mom the wisdom to see through her ex’s manipulative rhetoric. The most resonating reveal, to me, was “assumption of authority.” Second was “feigning cooperation.” Seeing just those two things for what they are brings a lot of wisdom.
I’m not even religious anymore but I leaned heavily on the serenity prayer. I find a prayer bookmark a friend gave me at Catholic school, and taped it to my wall by my bed ❤️
That’s awesome. As 12-step programs advise, “take what you like [of their philosophy] and leave the rest.” (My one-time therapist advised me to look into AlAnon’s writings on radical acceptance.)
I’m not religious either (ever), so years ago when I found a discounted 5×7 decor item with the serenity prayer printed on a cloud background, I just painted more clouds over the first word of it, because I would have bristled at displaying it in my house without that modification. As a life philosophy, the serenity prayer has often helped me summon my courage, wisdom and acceptance.
Wow Marco, perhaps you should write a book. If you have the magic code for getting a FW to do as they promised then I’m all ears.
How can I use email to get FW to pay for expenses he agreed to? Or to arrive for pick up on time? Or to dress my son in a full set of clothes when he is dropped off (e.g. not missing socks or a tshirt)?
All I’m saying is you control your time your phone etc. if you do that a lot of other stuff goes away. Those other problems will exist no matter what and it’s out of your control. Talking or interaction get you nothing. Do you enjoy banging your head against a wall?
Hi Marco, I don’t follow this site as closely anymore. Are you a FW, AP or Chump? Do you have kids? I asked because you wrote that “coparenting can be easy.” I hope you didn’t mean it to be as condescending as it sounded. Many of us here would soundly disagree with your statement. Chumps are usually the sane rational ones who assume a FW will at least do the right thing for the kids…but they don’t and won’t. Many FWs don’t follow basic guidelines and are abusive and manipulative — even with legal agreements in place.
Most of us found that the best we could do was “parallel parent” because coparenting is impossible with a FW. As an example — FW would change times for pick ups and drop offs without my agreement. FW wouldn’t follow through with after upon dates and plans. FW became abusive to our son to further manipulate me. It’s not as easy as “just do these things and it’s easy.” The chumps do those things — and even with boundaries, it’s excruciating with a FW (for many, if not most of us)
I know 3 who use the grey rock method I outlined. They all say it saved them. Nothing in these situations is easy I agree but some betrayed are their own worst enemy because they don’t learn to ignore.
I grew up with crazy. It’s hard to ignore crazy frequently especially when they are determined to give you the biggest benefit of it.
I should have been more clear. I questioned Marco because of his/her last statement: “The only problems that arise is if the betrayed spouse can’t let go or establish and keep boundaries.” That’s why I saw it as condescending and not on brand for a chump.
You only have control over yourself. Nothing else. Banging your head against a wall over something you have zero control over just gets you a headache.
My project manager is an IT expert and software programmer with decades of experience. His advice to me? Ask chatGPT ANYTHING.
I have recently been delighting in following his advice.
TYPO….”software DEVELOPER”. Gotta get the credits right!
I asked chatGPT to write my parents’ obituary (they both died the same month) and the result was worse than my rough draft. It was strangely vindicating that I could do better than the bot.
When I started out in IT, I was a programmer. I don’t remember when they started calling us Developers. Maybe the mid-90’s?
No Tracy CL,YOU WILL NEVER be out of a job. You put the lights on the runway to home, you add the snark that only an experienced healer could find in the mud of betrayal..there is no AI that could substitute for the wealth of wisdom born of sorrow and betrayal. All the folks you bring on, the experts who care and are not drinking the kool-aid of the RIC. YOU remind me of the lies and manipulating that wormed into my brain. Especially that I was not enough but all the OW were. You taught me so much that has saved me $$$ on the couch of therapist that have no clue… who worked in couples counseling Hand in hand with my abuser..almost getting me hurt / shot as she talked about relaxation techniques to do with an unstable man..this with a PHD. You Tracy are not replaceable as a human with a heart of gold💛..you saved me as you encouraged NO CONTACT because I was brainwashed that I was loved while being cheated on and getting UTI STI, lies fed to.me, told I was not enough..to say lies is one thing but to believe them is tragic. Keep shinning your light. It is never replaced even by the UBT!
Agree! Agree! Someone sent me an obvious GPT condolence email after my stepdad passed away. I picked up on the flowery, over the top prose that was clearly not this person’s style. And I struggled with the sincerity of this person. I would rather a simple ‘sorry for your loss’ than something that a computer program spits out. We still need people to bring the human into our languages & experiences.
Document, document, document. Otherwise, it’s chump said/FW said.
Most of my suggestions resulted from applying my professional background to temporarily coparenting with abusers.
1) I emailed my self everything, so it was written in real time, legible, and time and date-stamped. Plus it’s searchable by word, date and phrase. If you’re dealing with any kind of abuse or manipulation, it’s there and easy to find. And it won’t forget. If you think there were a few eye injuries and search, you may be surprised to see how many there were over time. Even though I now have sole custody and parenting time, I still document when child remembers and discusses past abuse.
Use hashtags in headers to help find specific issues, i.e. gaslighting, promises, no-show.
2) For text messages, imazing is a must-have. You can download all text messages from a sender into a single file, then divide them into multiple files. They’re searchable just like a text file. Again, it’s astonishing how many times you can see the same issue come up just by searching a word or phrase. So if you want to show a Judge how many times FW did something, you can bring up the number of times and specific texts and dates. Two lawyers told me that judges in domestic cases love it.
3) Car rides. My child spoke most freely during car rides while seated behind me, particularly after visits and therapy sessions and at night. They often open up when they’re distressed and your eyes aren’t on them. You can always prolong rides as needed.
4) Recordings of child. I tried to keep my phone handy, and when child disclosed, I would usually put my phone on record and put it in my pocket or somewhere else out of sight, so child was not self-conscious or distracted. Check your state to make sure this is allowed and also allowed as evidence. You could use other cameras or internal home security systems like nanny cams for the same purpose. The court did allow me to show these recordings. CPS workers also agreed to view them.
5) Recorded supervised visits. Some facilities/practices do this automatically, others on request. Recordings make it easy to view and assess the interactions between parent and child. Another facility did real-time computer “documentation,” but the note-taking supervisors omitted significant interactions, such as giving literally dozens of toys during one visit, and shopping bags of candy at another. Child walked in empty-handed and walked out loaded down with bribes, but according to the “documentation,” it didn’t happen.
6) What I have NOT found, and hope somebody has, is an app that makes it easy (and inexpensive) to record phone calls, ideally unexpected incoming calls as well as the outgoing calls we make. The apps I found require you to call a third number to make the recording, which was difficult, and not practical for an incoming call. In many states, there is a “one party consent rule,” that means you don’t have to tell the other party/parties that you are recording the call. You can find out online if your state is included. The law applies based on the state you are calling FROM; it doesn’t matter what state you are calling TO. If you are not a one-party state, although it’s called two-party or multi-party consent, which means you need to inform and have consent from everyone on the call. States may also vary in how consent applies when a child is on the call and unaware of the recording.
7) Something to avoid: phone apps that automatically delete calls. FW used on of these to make threatening calls to child , knowing the evidence of his call would disappear almost immediately. check your kids;’ phones to make sure those apps aren’t there. And also ask if FW is using an alias for their number(s) to hide their contacts.
8) In/out devices: Child’s preschool had parental check-in/checkout. That simplified proving that I had child overnight and after school. I refused other parent’s request to pick up child before school and make the drop off.
Some amazing ideas here, thanks so much!
I have Call Recorder on iOS but there are many more. Android will have a few too. This changed everything for me. Once I recorded calls I was able to stay calm while he totally lost it (how manipulative of me!!!!). I also changed his contact details to GREY ROCK DO NOT REACT (which he subsequently found out about when I sent him a screenshot of a text he’d sent – fortunately way past that causing a problem, he changed our group chat picture to a grey rock 😂 and we both enjoy absolutely no arguments or dramas now, but I’m not changing any of the guardrails cos they are the reason for the no dramas). I would listen to some of the really bad recordings when I was feeling weak and despondent, they were horrific but really sorted that trauma bond out for me that’s for sure..
Thanks so much. I’ll try that one. Love how you labeled his number as a reminder to yourself.
No kids between us(thankfully-Gods only know what horrors I’d be keeping my co-workers employed for she’d inflict on them.)
I am pretty sure that she changed her number(or the paper bills for a different mobile provider I was getting briefly were for her ghost phone). About the only thing I don’t have her blocked/unfollowed/ignored on is my email. She hates email. If she decides she needs to interface with me that is how she will have to do it(I’d say “can come to the home we made together and the traitor/coward can show some courage”, but did I mention that I found out in the last couple of weeks that she skipped town a few months ago apparently?)
And unless she changed her passwords(here’s a hint: I am still finding messes she left and she moved out a year ago so not holding my breath) most of her passwords and PINs were sentimental to us. It’s sort of like how Batman has to put the time of his parents’ death to get into the Batcave on the grandfather clock-she needs to acknowledge her fuck-up every time she buys groceries).
The really annoying thing? Facebook blocks all of her CURRENT activity-but in memories if she responded to something I can still be triggered by that(until I delete it)-replete with her current profile picture. Until recently it was all with different guys-now it’s alone. Oh well-almost done redacting her from that bit of history.
My favorite use of technology dealing with my fuckwit? Coming here 6+ times a week and feeling sane and validated again. Definitely wasn’t getting that from her!
I absolutely love hearing about parenting apps. I love them on the conceptual level.
Anyhow, have a Fuckwit Free Friday!
i use email and it’s infrequent, dealing only with agreement details that, at this point, deal with spousal support, etc.etc. my kids are grown and I parent on my own, as i did during the marriage–i’m thankful for this lack of complication.
The AI thing is interesting. My ex has an easy tell that you don’t need AI to understand: she cries. I have never seen another human with the same ability to turn tears on and off like a faucet. I know folks will say “keep everything in writing,” and I totally get it. I do that as much as possible. However, when you have 15 years of co-parenting in front of you, in-person and over-the-phone interactions are bound to occur. When we were married, I would have tried to console her when she was crying. Now, I sit and wait for her to finish with a look on my face that says “let me know when you’re done.” I might conspicuously check my watch. God blessed me with a fairly severe face – sorta like Hugo Weaving.
If you want to see her stop crying on a dime, tell her that you aren’t going to agree to what she wants. Those tears go away faster than spit in the sand, and are replaced by thinly-veiled rage.
I’m sure she goes back to her flying monkeys and complains about what a big ol’ meanie I am while she swirls her chardonnay. Oh well.
So, what’s the advice here? I think what LACGAL and other books have taught me about working with a narcissist is to just go ahead and assume that none of the emotions they display to you are genuine, but rather some form of manipulation. 1) Ignore the emotions, 2) focus on what you need, and 3) make sure all of your concessions are rationally based.
Wow impressive! I’m interested in that list of specific manipulative tactics; I need to learn more about those.
The four kids are grown. So he’s blocked on Signal, Telegram, Facebook, Messenger, Instagram, Phone texting,
and email. The kids are still having college graduations, weddings, showers and such so if I ever see him at those events, I politely and coolly grey rock like a pro.
I use a handy hashtag to deal. Kids are grown now thank goddess. But I worked for ex-FW for almost 2 years after D-Day (Until he fired me. My husband, my house, my car and my kids were not the only thing the mistress wanted. She got my job and is effing that up as well!) Anyway, FW would write work emails and mix in personal stuff about our divorce, which I would ignore entirely and only respond to the work related issues. Then too late – after I was fired – I came up with a hashtag to respond: #kthxbye.
Since I never actually got to use this hashtag on him (I finally succeeded getting him to stop contacting me, before I adopted this hashtag) I use it in my head to deal with the minutiae of daily life. It has taught me to “bye” stuff that is not important any longer.
Oh my goodness this is my current vibe. I’m using it for my personal counsellor, for strategies to help with intrusive thoughts etc. It is much better than venting.
My daughter thinks I’ve finally gone off my rocker.
One I did was describing an incident and asked AI to reframe the story from the perspective of a narcissist. It was spot on as to how they think and behave. A tragic pastime I know but rather validating.
I’m also using it to write social stories for my autistic son, since I’ve got no brain cells left to concoct one myself.
I’ve just tried the UBT thing on old FW messages. This is bloody brilliant to decipher the gaslighting. Some of it is so subtle but AI picked up even things I missed.
This is a game-changer. I just asked AI to show all of the manipulation tactics in one of FW’s emails that has veiled threats. AI saw right through all of it and I now have words to describe what it does to me.
I also asked it why FW agrees to a particular course of action, and then doesn’t follow through. It gave me further reasons for his behaviour that I hadn’t even considered. Thank you so much AI!
I’m addicted to this. 3 years of messages to decode.
I’ve also used it to assess risk to my son given I cant have a transparent discussion with therapists and the school as they’ll probably assume I am alienating the other parent. It has given some great suggestions for raising issues with school in way that is focused on my son.
I tried parenting apps with my FW. At the time my daughter was staying with him every second weekend so I loaded that info into the app so we could all see the dates. In about 3 minutes he went in to the shared calendar and changed all dates to showing 50/50 custody. Because my daughter had access to the calendar (she was 15), she became upset and assumed something had been decided without her knowledge. So I changed the dates back and you guessed it- FW changed it again. He was doing that so I couldn’t use it to prove dates for child support payments. I sent him a text reminding him our daughter had access to the shared calendar. Then I contacted the app support and they said unfortunately the shared calendar could be modified by all users. They sympathized and gave me my money back.
I had a shared calendar with my FW for a while. She started editorializing in the event titles (eg “kids with IG this week because he refused custody swap without providing true reason”) so I made my own calendar, just for me, where I record dates. I didn’t bother informing FW about this (because the whole point of a boundary is you enforce it yourself – you don’t ask the other person to pretty please change their behavior) and I guess she didn’t discover it for several years at which point she was outraged that I had my own separate, independent calendar instead of relying on the one she controlled.
This was just one of several interactions that convinced me that the only path to sanity was to reduce the amount and kind of interactions with XW as much as possible. We’re down to communication only through messages in OFW and serenity I feel at not being subject to all-hours pings from messages and emails is absolutely priceless.
Tech saved my sanity in a lot of ways.
Early on, FW would verbally threaten me in person, and then send syrupy sweet messages. Absolute mindfuck. I got him to stop messaging me by adding a picture to my contact details (a very cute one of my face, showing a little spark of my sense of humour). FW hasn’t sent me a single text message since the day I did that. That was a win.
Email was another great tool until we started using Our Family Wizard. I stopped responding to requests or messages on any other channel but email. I also emailed to myself all observations and documentation. That meant I could construct a timeline of what happened and when. That was gold during mediation when I could easily show his lies by omission, and the difference in tone between his emails and verbal threats. I physically printed off the emails and scribbled little UBT notes in the margins. Made it easier to see the manipulations on hard copy.
And email delay-send was also fab. It allowed me to write a response when it suited me, but then I could delay the send. I could both respond early so I didn’t have to think about it, but also slow down the interactions by delaying send for 24 hours. It also meant I could send during school hours so my son was never physically present when FW received an email that would fire him up.
My favourite though is updating his contact details in my phone. I’ve named him “Weird Little Guy” and added a picture of Shaggy from Scoobydo. Because you know if he pops up on that screen he’s looking for a scooby snack. He doesn’t call or text me anymore but it still makes me smile.
The message you’ve written includes a few potential manipulation techniques:
Blame Shifting: The message suggests that the recipient is unfairly limiting your time with the children due to your mistake. This technique shifts the focus from your oversight to the recipient’s supposed unfairness.
Appeal to Authority: By stating you will involve Peter to make a determination, the message implies that Peter’s judgment will settle the matter, positioning his authority as a way to bypass direct negotiation or resolution with the recipient.
Emotional Appeal: The message includes language that implies a lack of fairness and consideration for the children’s best interests, aiming to evoke a sense of guilt or responsibility in the recipient.
Ultimatums: The phrasing “He’ll rule in your favor or mine. That simple” creates a binary outcome and implies a final, decisive resolution that pressures the recipient to act quickly or concede.
Accusation of Inability to Co-Parent: The assertion that the recipient’s behavior is a documented inability to co-parent is a direct critique meant to undermine their credibility and suggest they are at fault for ongoing issues.
These techniques can often escalate conflict rather than facilitate constructive dialogue.
My ex wrote long, ugly diatribes via email. I shared a few with my legal team, and they were not impressed (LOL). I went no contact during the divorce, and then used Bill Eddy’s BIFF method during closeout. I did email-ony then. So my ex would go on and on, and I replied with a handful of sentences, only what was necessary. Eventually, he gave up, thankfully. That was several years before AI, so I didn’t have the fun of running some of those emails through. Thankfully, no coparenting here. I can only imagine the mess that would be.
I use AI quite a bit in my work and volunteer duties though. The paid version of Grammarly is also a help. I appreciate the ability to explore ideas, cut and paste in a longer work to quickly extract the main points, and I used it quite a bit this summer on a curriculum development project. Sure, sometimes it goes off base, but I can usually get it focused on what I need quickly enough to save time and effort.
I don’t goggle anymore, I use ChatGPT all the time and it’s so much better.
My son in IT told me that the free version of “Claude” performs better on evaluation benchmarks than the free version of Chatgpt so he switched to that and really likes it. ChatGPT is amazing, I haven’t checked Claude myself yet.
For a $20 monthly fee, it provides a later knowledge cutoff (April 2023), doubles the interaction limit, and offers priority access during peak times.
I think the free version is plenty good enough for my needs.
I didn’t get the opportunity to use it on the many mins numbing emails or texts from the FW, that would have been so clutch to have.
He use to tell me that I was the abusive one to him in my writings!
And he, the serial cheater of decades that ran off to marry his mistress, was not I guess? 🤷♀️
My FW hunted down both my anonymously posted comments on two other sites by looking through my internet history.
This site I’ve been much more secure about access and I think I’m clear. Tracy also helped to anonymise my story a little.
I used ChatGPT to help draft letters to the OBS. I also asked whether it was a good idea to call them or not. Overall I found it helpful to talk to given my other spaces were taken away from me.
YMMV but I contacted the OBS and it was one of the best decisions I made. We are still in contact (just last week we chatted about her kids’ concerns about her plan to move in with her long-term boyfriend) though we’ve never met in real life. We keep each other apprised of our ex-spouses’ plans (there is always some plot to take our respective kids away from us) so that we’re prepared to counter them. OBS has been a tremendous support to me.
I would like to think this but she’s never responded to my social media messages (2 messages) or email (x1). I’m not sure if I was blocked or if she already knows and doesn’t want to engage. But further contact sounds too stalkery.
Fundamentally, while technology can help (and I can’t help but be impressed by the way that ChatGP was used in the example that CL highlights), there are couple of key things here. The first is knowing that not every communication from your FW requires a response and the second is knowing that you can limit your response to what I term “minimum viable answer” without being rude.
Our 3 children are now adults, and yet Ex-Mrs LFTT still tries to drag me into things “just because she can.” Most of the time I don’t reply at all, but if I do I’ll stick with “Yes,” “No” or “Ask whichever child this issue affects.”
My favourite technologies are the “mute” and “block” settings on my phone/email and a complete absence of social media.
LFTT
This is a fabulous application of AI, love it!