Cheater Told Our Daughter He Wants to Be Friends
She’s in the middle of a custody dispute and her cheater ex told their 9-year-old daughter he just wants to be “friends.”
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Hi, Chump Lady.
After 4.5 years of failed IVF cycles, I finally became pregnant. At 32 weeks (two days before Christmas, no less) I discovered the email confirming my suspicions of my FW’s affair.
Despite his lack of remorse or genuine attempts in therapy, in the chumpiest of chump fashion, I continued to fight for my marriage. For the next four years, “Voldemort” moved into his parent’s basement three separate times, the longest of which was over 18 months. (Each time he returned, he followed it with promises like, “Let’s build a shed on our vacant wooded lot! Let’s buy a skid loader, and a new truck! And let’s make plans for our new house and let’s start another round of IVF…”)
We finalized the divorce about four years after D-Day in 2019. Unfortunately, I’m stuck in Minnesota, states away from my family but surrounded by his, until our daughter graduates in 2033.
We have both remarried. Generally, we co-parent about as well as can be expected, despite his love-bombing (while he was still with Schmoopie), tantrums and regular condescending criticism. (To no one’s surprise, the affair relationship didn’t work out. But the new wife, whose first husband cheated on her, thinks he’s the bees knees.)
This fall he petitioned the court for 50/50 parenting time.
We agreed in the divorce decree to roughly 75/25 and in complete shock to my attorney, the new judge granted his request without any due process or proof of it being in the best interest of our daughter. (Daughter is devastated by the decision and doesn’t understand why he didn’t ask her opinion.)
I’m appealing the decision and the accompanying wrath that came down on me (in front of our daughter) was the most aggressive, mean attack I’d ever experienced from this typically covert narcissist. Our child was in absolute tears during the tirade.
Last night, my daughter mentioned her dad said that he and new wife would like to be friends with me and my husband.
My response was something like, “I can understand why he might say that. I wanted our family and tried really hard to always be kind to your dad, but it’s really hard to be friends with someone who has betrayed me, yelled very unkind things to me and really hurt me.”
Then I provided an analogy with someone she’s really struggled with in school and she said “that actually makes sense.” (Also, she’s witnessed his temper and met the affair partner while and after we were married, as well as the next woman before his current wife.)
Thoughts on how better to convey to an almost 10 year-old that some relationships aren’t safe without throwing Voldemort under the bus?
He’s definitely trying to paint me as the unreasonable, bitter parent.
Thank you,
Stuck in Minnesota
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Dear Stuck in Minnesota,
Your cheater ex-husband is saying he wants to be friends for impression management and mindfuckery purposes only. I’m glad you’re clear on that. Friends don’t take friends to court. (Paint me suspicious, but 50/50 custody is a way to welch out of child support, a preferred ploy among FWs.)
I know your head wants to explode from his hypocrisy, but let’s examine his motivations. This way you can come up with some counter strategies.
Why would your cheater FW want to be (fake) friends with you and your husband?
1. ) It makes you look like a bitter bunny.
He knows you are not going to take him up this offer, which is exactly why he offered it. To throw you off balance. Maybe you’ll volley with some documentable emails! HOW DARE YOU! I’D RATHER EAT DIRT THAN BE YOUR FRIEND. And he can show them to the judge about how volatile and emotional you are.
Better strategy: Crickets. Remain gray rock. Don’t give him the satisfaction of a response. He’ll be trying to test you now, and it’s your job to keep your cool and remain the sane parent.
2.) He doesn’t want your daughter to think he’s the aggressor.
If your child is settled into her routine and doesn’t want 25% more time at new wife’s and Dad’s, she’s probably not thrilled with this new arrangement. So your ex needs to assert his Nice Guy persona. Hey, he just wants more time with daughter! He fails to understand the hostility.
I know this is a mindfuck, because your child got caught in the crossfire of your fight. She knows this isn’t friendly.
Better strategy: Do what your ex is NOT doing — put your child first. She should not be in the position of a human yo-yo, or know the gory details about your custody battle. It takes two to psychodrama. He cannot have a “tirade” if you’re not there to listen. The minute it gets heated in front of her, nope yourself right out of there. Keep communication to documented software and attorneys.
3.) He’s trying to bludgeon you into being his PR agent.
Your cheater wants to be friends because that narrative serves him and preserves his entitlement. Hey, if you’re friends with the man who cheated on you during IVF, how bad can he be? Not that bad! If you care about his discomfort (he has a sadz you don’t like him) more than your own trauma (he abused you), he remains central. And even better — he avoids accountability. Child support is canceled. He has parenting privileges on par with yours. Not the bad guy! Now, top that shit sundae with a friendship cherry!
Better strategy: Lean into your FW-free life. Stop centering him. Not everything deserves a response.
My response was something like, “I can understand why he might say that. I wanted our family and tried really hard to always be kind to your dad, but it’s really hard to be friends with someone who has betrayed me, yelled very unkind things to me and really hurt me.”
Your pain isn’t your child’s job. You don’t need to explain why you don’t want to be friends with him, just DON’T BE FRIENDS WITH HIM.
Another way to approach this is with bemusement. LOL, that’s quaint, and then you go back to scrambling eggs for breakfast. Because you have a LIFE.
This friendship request is his attempt to re-center himself in your life.
You don’t need to sputter or explain the particulars. Save the drama for court. At home, this is your sanctuary. FWs are not welcome here. I know the court order is unjust, and you’re addressing that. But your job is to be the sane parent no matter how much time you have. Build a new life and do not let FWs derail you.
Thoughts on how better to convey to an almost 10 year-old that some relationships aren’t safe without throwing Voldemort under the bus?
Yes. Live by example. Your divorce conveys that your relationship with him wasn’t safe. You don’t need to have lengthy discussions about it. Rock on as the sane parent.
My adult children and grandchildren want me to be friends with both cheaters from all the years together. I But I can’t do it. I can be cordial and occasionally talk to wife tress of #1 but my friends don’t treat me with cruelty and lies. I hand pick my good friends now for their kindness and honesty.
I had a knee jerk reaction about the new wife having been cheated on by her husband and then being so happy to find a new husband… who cheated on his wife before her.
But then I remembered, oh yeah, that is a thing. The first church group I tried to turn to when going through this had one of these women in it. Her husband cheated on her and she’s now friends with him and the woman he cheated with so I will be friends with my ex someday too! Umm, no. She couldn’t accept it. There are a lot of people like that.
I figure I have better odds with a stranger than with someone who has already repeatedly betrayed me so I don’t see why I’d ever resume any relationship with my ex or anyone else who screwed me over. It’s better for me to take a chance on a new person. But so many people act like that doesn’t make any sense. They wide eyed, open mouthed head shake at it as if I just spouted insane nonsense. But it’s basic logic.
The church people have been some of the worst with me, as if anything and everything should be forgiven so the marriage could continue. Then after the divorce, certain people hounded me because I didn’t want to be friends with my ex. Working against me was that he was one of the favorite part-time preachers there, but gosh, he took off. It had to be my fault, they reasoned.
It was ironic that my attorney (a devout man himself) was the first person to call out my STBX as downright evil in his eyes. Even my ex’s attorney admitted that he was concerned about how unhinged his client was and felt uneasy about what he might do in person. No, not someone to be friends with.
Gah! To see him and his family in church makes me cringe. While he was love bombing after our divorce he said he was a new person he’d never be again thanks to a small group at church. Not saying, God can’t work miracles, and change people‘s hearts and behaviors; however, my counselor said she’d never seen a Damascus road intervention in all of her years of practice.
LOL. One of my main tormentors cited the Damascus Road in some of her shaming attacks. She said that I didn’t have enough faith because God could do “anything.” Well, I agree, but that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t be skeptical if he shows up “changed,” after all, shouldn’t we be like sheep hanging out with wolves? She was still determined and prayed that my ex would return so we could remarry. I had that conversation with her multiple times.
Just bizarre. And yes, my older therapist said the same — She had never seen a lasting turnaround in someone with my ex’s issues. Never!
This is another example of cheating becoming normalized. They want to sell it as reconciliation, but it is really just paving over a sink hole. Nobody is a better person for this. It just looks pretty for awhile until it all caves in again.
A lot of people have no idea what integrity is and will kiss anyone’s arse to stay in their good books for whatever stupid reason- no matter what they’ve done to them.
Quality not quantity when it comes to friends.
Warning ⚠️ my second husband was cheated on and he still cheated on me. It’s not always who you attract but who you stay with
Then the next choice for me was..do these bold cheaters need My Kibbles to add to.all the other people they charm? Nope!
Those ones really shock me. I don’t get how someone goes through this pain and then proceeds to do it to another person.
Yep. I knew a woman once whose ex cheated on her with her coworker, when they had a 1 year old child. (Yes, HER coworker, not his, she introduced them). The FW left her (and child) for the coworker, married her, and proceeded to have a second family. And the woman I knew was FRIENDS with all of them. I was incredulous. She said she was mad for awhile, but figured it was “best for the children.” I asked her, did this OW ever apologize to you for cheating on you when you had an infant child? “Nope.”
She thought I was un-evolved one. I was like, I would never be friends with that person.
“She thought I was un-evolved one. I was like, I would never be friends with that person.”
I have REALLY great friends. I mean, really, really great. I am lucky. Why would I ever be friends with a person that did me so dirty? Infidelity is such a huge betrayal, and it is so hurtful. Why would I be friends with someone who did that to me? Especially when my actual friends set the gold standard? I can be kind to the FW. Civil. Hell, we live in the same town, if he ever needed legit help, I’d probably help him. But no, we aren’t friends.
Yikes! Some folks have very low harm avoidance and are groomed to be enablers.
From Tracy’s hard work I now know about kibbles and how cheaters work the room with charm. Who can resist ? Woman are backed up for miles just for a glimpse of their shirt collars. At least my #2 cheater told me that directly. What you no likey me too? You must have a problem.
Be nice!!! Tracy needs a cartoon here but I bet I might have missed it.
Ugh, that’s gross. It blows my mind. Do they really not realize that they just invited people in to their lives who gleefully harmed them? Do they not understand that these “friends” will harm them again anytime it benefits them? They’ve shown they will do that. Like, why would anyone want a friend that you KNOW for a FACT will hurt you anytime they can benefit from it?
But no, they don’t realize it. I don’t know how they don’t realize it but they must not. It blows my mind.
I once told a friend that it worried me how she maintained friendships with people who’d previously stabbed her in the back. I told her it made me wonder if she would eventually do the same to me. She was furious. Then she stabbed me in the back by disclosing private information about me to one of the flying monkeys of the workplace stalker I was in the midst of prosecuting.
It’s sort of the dark side of the Golden Rule: people typically serve up the same shit sandwiches they willingly eat. Not always. Victims who are seriously entrapped by coercive predators might captor bond and “spackle” for survival but never treat others in kind. But when people have free choice and still opt to spackle, they’ll always “do unto others” as they let be done to themselves.
It’s sort of the dark side of the Golden Rule: people typically serve up the same shit sandwiches they willingly eat.
Wow. I love this.
It’s kind of funny to think that a certain amount of abusive behavior stems from a lack of hypocrisy. But that’s sort of the takeaway when I think of the kind of mistreatment and betrayal that FW in my situation accepted from his parents and their awful social circle while still voluntarily remaining in contact with them for most of his adult life.
Seriously– for just one of several examples, his mother demanded he not only “forgive” but remain friendly with the older family friend who raped him as a teen just so she didn’t have to sacrifice a fancy, status-boosting social connection.
I learned about this event when we were first dating but I honestly couldn’t wrap my head around it nor understand what kind of permanently warping effects that level of family betrayal might have on someone’s psyche. I figured he was complaining about the injustice because he recognized it was wrong. But did he? It was the only thing he’d had modeled to him. I think that became his default assumption.
In the end he really didn’t ask more of me than had been demanded of him in terms of tolerating betrayal by the people who were supposed to protect him and have his back. In a sick and crazy way, he wasn’t actually a hypocrite. I just wasn’t as “tolerant” of shit sandwiches as he had been. It seemed to completely surprise him that I had been raised to fight the very thing he’d been raised to accept.
Also, Minnesota should listen to our recent podcast about the gender bias in family court and the book Framed by Amy Polacko and Dr. Christine Cocchiola. https://www.tellmehowyouremighty.com/66-gender-bias-in-family-court-an-interview-with-dr-christine-cocchiola-and-amy-polacko/
It’s really important to not play into the “hysterical” scored wife trope, no matter how much FWs may bait you.
That was such a great episode! great and also incredibly sad and frustrating as we still have a long way to go.
I think it’s incredible that all these critical justice hubs are joining forces.
Will give it a listen today! Thanks for the advice!
So good.
Such a good podcast. My divorce attorney said early on that my case might end up in court and said that it would be tricky to present me as a wronged SAHM who nonetheless was a solid, reasonable person in contrast to my deeply disturbed, addict husband. He said that in my area, SAHM’s are often stereotyped poorly in the court system.
Thankfully, we settled. I really, really didn’t want to sit through that amount of ugliness even though we had pretty much settled on witnesses and trial strategy by the time I signed. I just wanted to go on with my life and a decent settlement, and I got that.
This was so good and so upsetting but great. I love your podcasts.
Stuck in Minnesota,
Our children see more than we think they do and they understand more of what they see than we think they do too. I suspect that your daughter knows all too well why you do not wish to be friends with your Ex, but I also suspect that she is struggling to find a form of words to convey this to her father that avoids a negative response from him.
Where you can help her is to be the sane and ever-present parent for her. When it comes to him trying to use her to leverage you or to paint you as “the bad guy” to suggest that she says “this is between you and Mum” and to leave it at that.
LFTT
I had to have a conversation with my then 7 year old son about “grownup jobs” when my ex was using our kid to send messages and arrange schedules with me (like switching custody days or asking for money), as well as trying to suss out information about my life since I had gone grey rock and as no contact as I could. I told my child that if daddy needed to ask me something, he could talk to me himself and that that was the grownups’ job take care of things, not his (my child’s). I did this very calmly with no emotions. I told my kid he could absolutely put the blame on me if daddy asked why he didn’t ask me. My son said “I don’t want to make daddy mad, so I’m afraid to say no when he asks”. It made me so mad, especially because we had literally just gone through the required parenting course which had a whole section on not using children as messengers between the parents.
After that, whenever my son started to ask me something he had been instructed to ask by my ex (he’d literally start “daddy wants to know…”), I would stop him and say “that’s not your job, that’s the grownups’ job”.
“Grownup jobs”: Yes, that’s a perfect formulation to give your child (as it gets the point across AND is precisely the truth!).
Nail on the head. If I had a dollar for every time she’s said, “I don’t want to make dad mad…” I’d have half my legal fees paid…
That’s so chilling and reminds me of an earlier interview Dr. Christine Cocchiola did with Dr. Ramani talking about how coercively controlling (is there any other kind?) abusers invariably try to coercively control children as well. This is clearly why Dr. Cocchiola uses the term “protective parent” for victim parent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyszZ2gJ9sA
I will watch this later but yes. My sons are 25 and 28 and I know he emotionally abuses and manipulates them but there is nothing I can do. I just try to say to myself I win because I don’t do that. It is heartbreaking, though.
Nope.
I had a pregnancy cheater – I also had a young baby at the time.
When he eventually left, he and the Skanky One decided they’d take my children instead of having more.
The Skanky One barged into my house without knocking one day and declared we should all be friends.
Sure… my friends always lie, cheat and ruin mine and my children’s lives -why not?
They got worse over time and the effects still show in my now adult children.
Don’t listen to any of that friends crap and protect your kids at all costs.
My ex and I never became friends. I never even considered it. Oh on the rare joint occasions, I could muster and quick nod as I pass by, That was about it. He said everything I ever needed to hear during the betrayal process.
I honestly never understood the be friends with ex’s hysteria of the 90s. I am glad that era is gone. It was always stupid. By that I mean, be friends with whomever you wish, but don’t label someone else as bitter/immature who does not follow suit.
1) “Your pain isn’t your child’s job. You don’t need to explain why you don’t want to be friends with him, just DON’T BE FRIENDS WITH HIM.”
I agree that “Your pain is not your child’s job.” But I would be concerned that not explaining your stance on the matter is somewhat dismissive of the child’s questions. It’s a fine line between not burdening your child with adult issues and not addressing those issues at all. I’m glad my kids were grown and gone at the time of my unpleasantness, but even so – the youngest was 30 – they had questions. Thankfully none of those questions were “Why can’t you and dad be friends?”
2) I don’t understand about the 50/50 custody arrangement saving the FW any money. The kid is with you 25% of the time, pay 50% of the bills because it’s half your kid. The kid is with you 50% of the time, pay 50% of the bills, because it’s half your kid. I don’t get it.
3) I absolutely believe FWs want to be friends because of impression management. But in my case (and another chump I know had the same experience) FW told me “You’re my best friend” as he detailed when and where (geographically and anatomically) he stuck it to Mrs. Bendover. He was so happy when he was regaling me with his new life that he was practically floating. Who better to share your glowing good news with than your best friend? As always: Clueless. Delusional. Narcissist.
“FW told me “You’re my best friend” as he detailed when and where (geographically and anatomically) he stuck it to Mrs. Bendover.”
I am currently living this nightmare. Well, I’m exiting it. But yes, my FW wants me to be his best friend, and wants to tell me all about his new life. No thank you.
Timing was such that he moved out just after things ended with AP permanently. He immediately got on the dating apps, which was his right as a separated man (though he was also dragging his feet on the divorce process). I tried to civilly co-parent, he wanted me to remain his best friend. I knew so much about his dating life, despite doing my best to avoid those details. Now he is with someone he considers serious and he wanted me to hear all about where they went this weekend or that weekend. Dude. I’m not your bestie. Far from it.
Kind of nice to hear that I’m not alone there.
Not alone at all. I hope you are practicing “no contact” as much as is possible while sharing custody. “Gray rock” and “strictly business” as well. If you’re new here CL has some great columns about how to sanely co-parent.
it took me over a year to fully get on board with low contact/grey rock. But I am there. It is freeing.
“Your divorce conveys that your relationship with him wasn’t safe. You don’t need to have lengthy discussions about it.” 💯 Period.
PS – FW wants 50/50 now to eliminate any child support and possibly to get your daughter’s future free labor at his house with childcare and housework etc. Trust that he sucks.
Child support is definitely the unspoken but loud-as-ever motive.
Very THAT, as the kids say. Try to ensure that your daughter is not roped into babysitting duties.
My sister was used as a “friend” by Cheater (he died last year). She was further chumped by the child therapist who said it was best that she try and remain friends with Cheater (for the sake of their kids). Let’s recap what he was about:
1. Cheated on her with his subordinate in their home.
2. Tried to get her kicked out of their house -including their kids – to move his subordinate side chick in.
3. Refused to pay child support until court-ordered. Can’t the kids eat at your family’s house?
4. Took their kids to side chick’s house under guise of work and fucked her while the kids were told to watch TV.
5. Tried to offer her a settlement of pennies on the dollar while buying side chick an $85,000 truck. Side chick knew how to hustle him, she blackmailed him into giving her a down payment on a condo too then left.
6. Etc etc etc
Then enters all the child “specialists” who then gaslight generations of kids into accepting bad behaviour by suggesting one parent put all that toxic abusive behaviour aside to become collegial ‘for the kids’.
My sister even invited that creep to holiday dinners where I kept hoping he’d choke on a roll. I wasn’t sorry when he passed & didn’t attend his funeral. Which, of course, my sister had to attend to. We all helped her with the planning, but I thought I might spit on his coffin and cause a scene so I recused myself, and met everyone back at the house for a reception where some of us secretly toasted with some bubbly in a back bedroom. Yeah maybe some will think it was poor taste, but meh, don’t care. He was an evil jerk and my sister never deserved any of it. Sorry I went on a bit about this. I guess writing is therapeutic! My point of my long story: don’t assume everyone wants you to be friends with the FuckWit parent & you are still a good person/parent even if you never engage with them again. You don’t even have to nod, say hello or smile at them either.
wow. F that guy. You were spot on to hate him. It does help to write it out. That is why being here is so great. Sharing these nightmare stories helps us feel less alone.
Thank you! I’ve written about my FW but never my sister’s & he was far worse than mine.
“Took their kids to side chick’s house under guise of work and fucked her while the kids were told to watch TV.”
🤬This is a covert form of sexual abuse.
Yeah covert & sick. The kids knew something wasn’t right about it & heard “weird noises”. One of the kids told my sister. That’s when she started figuring things out.
Reading this sounded so familiar. I had a friend with very similar happenings with her FW, but I’m sure they are not the same FW. Just goes to show that they’re all the same flavor.
I’m sure there is more than one unfortunately.
Cheers to that bubbly toast 🥂🍾 Sounds perfectly karmic!
🥂 🥰
As I see it, when the cheater opened his mouth about being friends, he opened the door to a golden gift wrapped opportunity to teach your daughter what friendship is, and what it isn’t.
Trust and safety are the essential non-negotiable characteristics of ANY kind of relationship that is healthy. Cheaters and side pieces, with their behavior, have proved themselves lacking.
Thank you, Cheater!
“The term “opening the door to testimony” refers to a legal concept where a party in a trial, through their own actions like cross-examining a witness or presenting evidence, inadvertently allows the opposing party to introduce evidence that would normally be inadmissible, essentially “opening the door” to that otherwise excluded testimony, based on the principle of fairness to correct a misleading impression presented by the first party. “
Relationships are a skill. People who participate in affairs don’t have those skills, and their talk about friendship with those they violate just validates that.
I can understand not wanting to get the kiddo wrapped up in gory details, but I commend the OP for explaining to her daughter in a way she can understand and in pretty objective terms why a friendship with her father doesn’t work. I have a fairly curious and observant kid, and while I don’t doubt she will see how living a FW-free life is necessary, putting it to her in a way that makes sense and right out in the open satisfies their scientific curiosities. Kids have questions! Do I owe her explanations about my personal life? No. But am I teaching my kid how this relationship stuff works? Absolutely. I think it’s akin to telling a kid in an age appropriate way that other parent cheated and that’s why you can’t be married to them anymore. Action meet consequence, explained. This is what happens when people betray and hurt you.
My kids (now grown) said that my willingness to listen and talk about principles of good relationships without casting blame on their dad made a huge difference. I felt like I was walking a narrow line there even though they were older. They had to work out for themselves what a relationship with their dad was going to be, if any.
As it turned out, he had been gone for four years by the time he finally got around to inviting them to visit (yes, really), and they had been no contact with him since the beginning of the divorce process. One was out of college and working, and the other had one semester left when he finally invited them. I offered to drive them to the airport, and they both said they weren’t going. So they never did see him again. As a friend of mine likes to say, “Sorry, not my committee.”
I say here a lot it’s okay to tell your kids why you divorced — age appropriately and without editorializing. I’m all for telling the truth. However, I think we have to be very careful to not slop our pain on to minors. They have their own grief to work with. Instead of burdening a child with the particulars of your sadness and hurt — cut straight to the new life. Let your actions say, nope, we’re not friends. And be positive around your kid about all the other things you have going on.
Model strength, resiliency, getting on with shit. SHOW your kids that you are way too cool to be friends with a FW.
Because the alternative — sharing your grief and sadness and hurt, hoping they will side with you over the FW, can be weaponized in court as you being “bitter” or “alienating.” I’m sorry we have to worry about that shit, but we do.
AND more importantly, let the kids figure out the FW. Unless you can demonstrate abuse that the courts recognize, you’re going to have to share you kid with your ex. Let go of trying to control what they say about you (he say he wants to be friends, and you’re mean!) — don’t justify, get defensive, explain. LIVE YOUR LIFE. Do the work of sane parenting. Show up. FWs will be FWs.
As for 50/50, you’re clearly not in the US. Most courts default to no one owes CS if you share custody, but yes, you’re supposed to share medical expenses, or activities. If anyone gets that, report the unicorn to me.
“However, I think we have to be very careful to not slop our pain on to minors”–this is such an important point, and I’m glad you make it repeatedly on this blog.
It’s especially important for us chumps to bear this point in mind, because when we are going through the trauma of D-Day and separation, we can temporarily LOSE OUR GOOD JUDGMENT about what we are saying and what its effects might be on our interlocutor. Thus it’s important to take great care not to do some regrettable “slopping” onto the kids.
Spot on as always, but just want to add a counterexample about child support. I have 50/50 custody with my ex, but I still have to pay FULL child support as though I have no custody at all. This is WA state and is a fairly normal outcome; you have to request a special exemption for more sane payments even though 50/50 parenting time is becoming the norm.
Stuck in Minnesota wrote: “Thoughts on how better to convey to an almost 10 year-old that some relationships aren’t safe without throwing Voldemort under the bus?”
Dear SIM: the better question is how to you throw Voldemort under the bus without Voldemort and a possibly biased judge trying to frame you for it?
I think it’s important not to pull punches if you want the cycle of abuse to stop for your daughter’s generation. In that sense, Voldemort’s behavior definitely needs to be identified as abuse. But the good news is that– sneaky chuckle– you might never have to directly discuss Voldemort in order to educate your daughter about things related to, say, the “red flags” of personality disorders, interpersonal abuse and specific tactics of coercive control not to mention strategies for combating these things and societal impacts of abuse.
Long before FW went off the deep end, my kids loved social science, politics and history and were constantly asking questions about why creepy individuals in history or the public sphere or people we encounter act the way they do. It actually all began as a manner of helping them cope with the behavior of abusive teachers or rejection by extended crappy family members (toxic in-laws)– because curiosity beats heartbreak and social injury. Then the interest expanded to abstract issues and politics. They ended up asking so many questions that I’d sometimes have to hit the books in order to discuss any of it. Consequently, it’s been regular dinner table conversation or even a bedtime ritual to talk about forensic psych or sociopolitical theories on what makes societies more humane or more cruel, etc., etc., etc., blah blah blahditty blah.
So basically the kids had a pretty good idea why dad’s behavior sucked long before he committed it. I did not have to editorialize the basic info of what he’d done wrong or talk about it in age inappropriate ways because they all caught on like lightning.
In other words, that “bus” had already long left the station and was barreling merrily down the road before he threw himself under it. And then the bus kept going so, if he’d try to rationalize any of his bs or pulled any manipulation tactics, the kids would call him out like a team of snarky sociologists.
I especially loved the term “gashole”– a melding of “asshole” and “gaslighting”– that the kids coined for individuals like Harvey Weinstein. Maybe that term is less like a bus and more like a sharp spike that FW decided to throw himself on. But if the spike fits… 😉
But, all the same, FW could never in a million years try to smear me with “parental alienation” accusations because that kind of “skein untangling” has been a fond family tradition for several generations. Two of my uncles were organizational psychologists who developed, taught or applied theories on the types of personalities that either promote or destroy anarchic (“flat management”) business structures (hint: avoid narcs and gasholes like the plague). Then my mother worked for the news in the arena of crime reporting, hung out with FBI profilers and had all sorts of cheerful original insights about the mobsters or serial murderers or sociopathic corporate criminals she observed over long periods during undercover investigations and court proceedings. Then my dad was a combat veteran who coped with battle trauma by studying societal factors that promote or decrease war with a particular interest in the role of rape culture in warring societies. Then I tacked an interest in criminology related to interpersonal abuse and the role of corporate culture in environmental toxicity onto the family skein untangling roster when I began working in advocacy for various causes.
My family also had the view that, because modern laws and policies are often based on scientific or social science theory (for better or worse), the only way to maintain democracy is for regular Joe Schmo voters to gain literacy in these things if just to be able to distinguish between weaponized junk science and valid theory. So it’s just how kids on my side of the family are raised regardless of whether they go into scientific careers. I grew up hearing two quotes a lot: Alexander Pope’s “The proper study of mankind is man”; and Thomas Hardy’s “If a way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst.”
It’s FW’s bum luck that I’m the main hand that rocked the cradle and the kids didn’t roll far from that tree, including my family’s happy tendency to use gallows humor as a way of coping with and processing ugly realities and awful people. So now it’s not unusual for dinner banter to be peppered with the kids’ Epstein island jokes. But we also discuss courage and integrity a lot and the various factors that inspired historical figures or whistleblowers or people we know to fight the good fight. I’m sure it’s all pure torture for FW when the kids talk about these things but what’s he going to do– defend Andrew Tate or shut down a discussion about Martin Niemoller?
At the end of the day, the kids’ ability to call out FW’s crappier tactics was just an unplanned side effect of being raised to be discerning individuals who value integrity in others, understand the price of maintaining integrity, the role of this in history and know how to keep their lives generally shark-free. Plus they’re so cheerful about it that they’ve been very influential with friends. My daughter uses a lot of these observations to develop characters and build worlds for the sci-fi graphic novels she’s outlining and writing. My sons aren’t planning to apply any of this stuff professionally but I think it’s helped guide their interest in and understanding of geopolitics.
In comparison to how sharp and funny they all are, I feel like I was a total turnip at the same age. But that’s how families build generational wisdom and a love of learning– and also how they stop the buck of generational bs.
HOAC,
I love reading your psychosocial insights but I honestly could not understand how you have the fortitude to analyze these awful dark topics. I find myself feeling sick to the bone even though I’m into true crime and follow the news stories, Dr Grande etc. I think the hard part is to face the fact of having been married to or raised by people with these cruel fixed traits… I’m still trying to read the Stark & Ochberg books but it’s too hard while dealing with FW drama and my very traumatized college age kids.
Finally I get it: it’s in your blood through and through. You can’t help it! The forensic crime organizational psych FBI combat veteran experienced celebrity journalist in you ever prevails..
And by those credentials, I hereby second the proposal to add “Gashole” to the official Chump Nation glossary of terms.
Awaiting @Chumplady approval 🐸
I think the most important message in Ochberg’s book and the chapter on DV in particular is that traditional victim blaming views in psychology are founded in junk science, are perpetuated by the cognitive fallacies of incompetent helping professionals and not only don’t help but often further entrap victims.
If that much can be drawn from the book, I don’t think anyone in the throes of current crisis would need to plod through the minutiae (just like you wouldn’t pause to read a tome on the psychology of pyromania while the house burned down around you). But it can be reassuring to keep the book on hand either as a projectile to throw at the head of anyone you encounter in a professional capacity who spews the usual blamey bull or like Wonder Woman’s deflector bracelets to keep the ionized bullshit rays from penetrating your psyche.
Kind of kidding. But I actually knew survivors who kept the book bedside like a kind of teddy bear for reassurance while they were under heavy victim-blaming fire from social context or in legal settings. Or maybe like a bible. Since literally no one in history had more experience on the front lines of domestic violence than Evan Stark and Ann Flitcraft– original founders of the shelter movement and spearheads of coercive control research and legislation– the argument in that chapter might as well be the word of God and a talisman against evil bs.
I actually relate to your low threshold for grim or violent content but something that always horrifies me more is the prevalence of victim blaming spin in cultural perceptions, social science and law because of the real world consequences. So I’ll muck through content and subject matter I might otherwise avoid in order to weed out the bs rather than leaving command of the entire playing field to douchebags with higher degrees.
There’s a quote I love from humorist GK Chesterton: “Without education, we are in a horrible and deadly danger of taking educated people seriously.” This is especially true in the context of victimology which has been dominated by blameshifting for centuries. Fuck that noise.
Was the daughter asking for an explanation? It sounds like she was just stating a fact about what her FW father had said, and it sounds like the explanation she got was sufficient. So why the need to go into it further?
I think the more pressing matter is closing the channels of communication to further verbal abuse. It’s time to go low contact (as low as you can with a child together) and grey rock. Texts only, not phone calls, so you can document his abuse, and he’s to discuss nothing of a personal nature, only practical stuff about your daughter. He doesn’t come in your house, not even for pick-ups and drop-offs. You leave kiddo’s bags outside your front door and make yourself scarce when the doorbell rings. Ten is certainly old enough to that she can go to the door and leave with FW without your assistance. When he drops her off he’s to text to make sure you are home, ring the bell and then leave immediately. If you’re dropping her off, text to say you’ve arrived, take her to the door, knock or ring the bell and immediately go to watch from a distance until it is answered. If he catches you walking away and says something to you, just wave and say you’ve got to go. You might think this is going too far, but remember how traumatized your daughter was by his tirade. You don’t want him to have the opportunity to do that again.
Send your new rules in an email to him and state that they are not negotiable, and that he violates them it will constitute harassment. Say you’re willing to be as amicable as possible under the circumstances, but he is not getting the opportunity for any more verbal abuse. You’re dealing with a high conflict individual, so it’s going to happen again. He’ll probably go into a tantrum about the new rules, but he can only do it by text, because you won’t answer his calls. Then you’ll have concrete evidence of his volatile personality to use in court if necessary.
I wouldn’t even outline the rules – just more drama he’ll extract and twist and use against you … just make the changes, it will speak for itself.
this is so good
Stuck, both you and your child must be shocked and possibly devastated by that ruling.
There are steps you can take to help get it reversed.
Please look up Child Custody and Parenting Time on the Minnesota Courts website.
Ask your attorney if you should get a Child Custody Evaluator to assess both parties. They can be court-ordered and usually both parties have to pay. This is an outside professional who conducts interviews with the child, parents and sometimes others, observes the child’s interactions with parents at home, and reviews statements by the parents and relevant others to determine the best placement, then make a report to the court.
In my state, they are called Parental Responsibility Evaluators, and mine required extensive answers to many questions about child and parenting, as well as multiple outside references who observed our parenting. FW insisted on being interviewed before he did the paperwork, in order to bias the professional. It didn’t work: he recommended that I have sole parenting time and decision making, which the court granted.
I highly recommend getting a therapist for your daughter to help her deal with this sudden change to 50/50 custody and dad’s behavior. You might want to ask the therapist if you should also have some family therapy sessions, and if dad should seek a separate family therapist. You want it on record that you ae doing this to help daughter deal with changes and with the temper tantrums you mentioned she has witnessed: the accompanying wrath that came down on me (in front of our daughter) was the most aggressive, mean attack I’d ever experienced from this typically covert narcissist. Our child was in absolute tears during the tirade.
You didn’t specify what you meant by aggressive. I suggest you ask a domestic violence shelter if that constitutes a reportable offense. Minnesota law defines domestic abuse as physical harm, bodily injury, or assault, or the infliction of fear of imminent physical harm, bodily injury, or assault, when committed by a family or household member. If he threatened you in front of your daughter, and your daughter discusses this with a therapist, teacher, health provider or other mandated reporter, they may be obligated to inform Child Protective Services.
You want to have that on record with a therapist, and also have her develop a relationship so she can disclose any other rages, pressure, etc. that she experiences while with dad and not with you.
Ask around so you know you have a good therapist AND a good attorney. Yours seems to have been blindsided.
Put together a timeline and documentation of all the times he moved out on you and your daughter: “ For the next four years, “Voldemort” moved into his parent’s basement three separate times, the longest of which was over 18 months. (Each time he returned, he followed it with promises like, “Let’s build a shed on our vacant wooded lot! Let’s buy a skid loader, and a new truck! And let’s make plans for our new house and let’s start another round of IVF…”)
This shows a concrete pattern of instability. Did he abandon his daughter during that time? See if you can document how often he saw her, attended medical appointments, etc.
If he has ever skipped out on his 25% custody time, do what you can to document that, too, with any excuses (especially emails or texts) he gave you as reasons for cancelling. It’s also good to make note of no-calls/no-shows when your daughter would have expected to see him and didn’t.
Be concrete, factual and dispassionate in compiling this information. Be sure to include your daughter’s reactions (i.e., “Daughter cried for twenty minutes because Daddy didn’t take her for ice cream as promised, and mentioned three days later how sad she was that daddy didn’t kee his promise;” “Father agreed to take daughter for 4 hours on (date) but returned her after 90 minutes.”) Especially document if your daughter is RELEIVED that Daddy didn’t come, i.e., “Daughter said “That’s was Daddy does, cancel, and I’m glad because I don’t like going to his house.” Show all of this to your attorney and ask for suggestions how to phrase documentation moving forward.
Ask your attorney if Michigan allows secret recordings of phone calls and conversations, and if so, use your cell to record transfers and daughter’s comments before and after visits. Remember to sound like the sane parent you are, and don’t tell daughter anything that can be construed as “coaching” her to be negative or to exaggerate,
Start keeping detailed records now, when he should be on his best behavior in light of your appeal. Email them to yourself as the occur so you have them in writing. Ask your attorney to review a few to be sure they are appropriate for court.
Any time ex wants to opt out of his time, consider it a gift. Be neutral. “OK” is enough. And document all these times he gave up parenting time. If you make it easy for him and he doesn’t suspect, he may end up parenting 25% or less on his own.
As your lawyer if it matters WHO is doing the actual parenting. Is he actually there with your daughter, or is it step-mom? Ask if there’s an appropriate way to ask your daughter. If you get to have calls before bed, that would be the perfect time to ask, and record, what she did that day and who was there.
Any chance they are having another kid and want daughter there to care for a future baby sib?
Get Family Wizard or similar software and use it exclusively to discuss all parenting issues. It documents and time stamps everything. If your ex declines, your attorney can ask the court to order it. Point out the rage he went into and explain you think it is safest for all parties to use it.
Do NOT tell your ex or child that you are doing this.
Be sure your own behavior and parenting is as close to perfect as you can get. Take parenting classes and get records. Make sure others can SEE you parenting, perhaps by volunteering at your daughter’s school, or participating in parent/child activities together. Invite the neighbors over. Your ex has a huge circle of local family he can offer the court or evaluator to attest to his parenting. Make sure you too have people who see you and daughter. Yours, by virtue of NOT being family, may be seen as more objective.
Above all, keep calm. Make sure your daughter sees that she can trust you. Understand that your ex and his new wife may be pressuring your daughter to lie or hide info; they also may be love-bombing her. You don’t want her to feel in the middle, even though she is. Consider that there might be some advantages to her having this time with Ex and new wife; as an alternative, they could have rejected her.
In my case, FW wanted 50/50. He got zero.
Above all, consider your daughter’s best interest and act on it, even when FW demands he have her for the holidays, etc. Make sure who gets what time and days is thoroughly spelled out in a written court order, abide by it, and do your best to enjoy your time with and without your daughter.
My ex can never be a friend.
I remember all too well how she behaves with “friends”.
It isn’t a joke, I likely would get more sex out of her as a “friend” than as her husband because somewhere in her head letting multiple individual guys bang her is “being friends”.
Her excuse was the trope of “We’re just friends” and “just being friends”.
And when I pointed out that she’d never accept me having friends that way she said she can’t just “cut off people like that”.
And I don’t trust her any further than I could toss her, plus first down marker.
She’d claim “rape” the second her new flavor boyfriend got suspicious.
It’s a pattern for her, cheat then get caught then claim rape.
The more I think about her behaviors the more I realize what a mind screw my marriage was.
My Whoremonger Cheater wanted to be friends so that he could regale me with tales of his match dot com dates. He wanted to lend me his car so that he could tell me when it wasnt available because he had plans. Uh…not interested, and I’ll uber. I told my adult daughter that I’m not interested in knowing about who he is dating or what he is doing. We dont talk about him. We have other things to talk about.
The father of my children… an abuser, cheating fw and unforunately actively addicted… was confined by supervised visitation. My son came back from one of these with the following:
“Daddy says if you would just be nice to him we could be a family again.”
My son and daughter were 7 & 6 respectively. I saw red as you can imagine but held it together. I simply said “Daddy is the one not being nice so this is how we behave when people aren’t nice to us. We don’t *have* to be nice to people who aren’t nice to us no matter WHO they are.”. It was of course hard for my kids to understand that then. They did eventually tho when he bailed on them about 6 months later and left the state to avoid paying child support. Their father reached out when they turned 18 and when he was dying of cancer but you know… they reap what they sow.
It’s hard now and in this moment but as Tracy always says… they need one sane parent and you are it. It’s not going to be easy and you have all of us to support you as you navigate this journey.
I’d keep notes of conversations .. dates/times. Possibly record these tirades if possible. I know it sounds tedious but it does have weight when going in front of some judges. You will appear orderly, detailed and cognizant of what is really happening… especially if he goes on a rant/tirade in front of the judge. I let the lawyer and documentation speak for itself. I ended up with full *legal* and physical custody. I know you’re not fighting for that but if it will help retain minimal contact with this @$$hat… do what you can. Maybe even have a letter from your daughter if she has a firm need and doesn’t put her in the crosshairs of this nitwit. I’m sure there are a ton of suggestions here.
Sending gentle hugs for all.