How Do I Get Past Approval Seeking?
Why does she care what her cheater says and how can she get past the approval seeking? The single mom judgement is getting to her.
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Dear Chump Lady,
Why do we care what cheaters say to justify their infidelity? Do all chumps fear validation issues as much as I do?
I am a person, who is strong and have a good set of supportive parents, family and son. They know me, trust me and see nothing wrong in me leaving my marriage. Over the last 2.5 years of my husband’s cheating and blaming me for his neglect, I got support from some good friends and extended family and even some members of his family. However, my strategy was to stay put in my place and fight.
The fight was context dependent as I come from different set of values and beliefs. (I belong to a middle-class north Indian family). This fight needed me to cut open his allegations about my being a bad wife, daughter-in-law etc., by reasoning and evidences.
In the process, my husband lost a lot — his friends’ and employers’ respect, distrust of his son and a number of his family members. However, this “doing the right things and going on” strategy has led me to become very approval seeking. I was approval seeking earlier too and this was my weakness, which my husband exploited. But, I didn’t know this fault of mine then. People say I am too emotional and too value-laden. But, I don’t know why I care for the opinions of my near and dear ones and about society in general. Is this common to all chumps?
What can I do about it, when I feel bad about people’s opinion about my being a single mom?
What can I do, when I feel let down with comments like I didn’t care for my husband enough and that he left me for my failings? I did go through therapy and approval seeking has been identified as one of my behaviour traits. However, whatever I do, I just don’t seem to get over it. The failure of my marriage has perhaps hit this part of me the most. If I can get over this wretched feeling of guilt and approval seeking, I think I am over most of my pains. What should I do?
Regards
Anudi
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Dear Anudi,
You sound like a lovely person. Most chumps are. Considerate of others, people pleasing, attuned to what other’s need. This probably makes you very pleasant to be around. Entrusted to the wrong person, however, these qualities can also make you a chump.
What should you do? Know where you start and other people end.
It’s okay to consider others, to want to earn their good opinion of you, and it’s quite another to shrivel up and loathe yourself if they don’t approve. When you’re clear on your values and who you are, then the slings and arrows of others’ judgements cannot hurt you in the same way. If you need their good opinion to feel good about yourself? You’ll give their disapproval a lot of weight. If you don’t need their good opinion? You can listen to garbage opinions about “single mothers” and pity them for their ignorance.
Let me put it another way. If I told you, Anudi! I hate you for being a purple Martian! You’d be taken aback, but think me crazy. You know you’re not purple or from Mars. The error is mine. You see, people cannot land blows on you unless you at some level you believe these things to be true, or are unsure. Maybe you deep down believe there IS something wrong with being a single mother. There is some whiff of failure in being divorced. That these things make you Less Than.
I’m sure in a country like India it must be exceptionally difficult to stand out. To buck tradition and patriarchy and entrenched entitlement. It’s everywhere, but women like you Anudi are pioneers, like women were generations before us. My aunt divorced in the 1970s (her husband was an alcoholic, philandering lawyer).
Back then, the U.S. laws stated women couldn’t get loans without their husband’s permission. She couldn’t hire a lawyer until her boss (years later) fronted her the money. She had to buck that culture — and Anudi, you have to buck yours and not lose your soul. Know that who you are and what you’re doing is ADMIRABLE.
Don’t internalize the judgement!
You gave your marriage your very best effort. No one is perfect, and your ex-husband certainly wasn’t. You could not control him, and you should never have had to tolerate his disrespect and abuse. Anyone who doesn’t understand that is an asshole.
Seriously, cut these people from your life or hold them at a distance. You don’t need their negative messages. Let’s start with your cheating ex-husband. Why would you look to that idiot for validation? Consider the source! To quote Frederick Douglass again: “A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me.” He’s not a gentleman. He’s a liar and a cheat. His words are worthless.
Don’t stop being a lovely person. Don’t stop caring about others or what they think. But don’t lose sight of yourself. Your values (like self respect) are going to conflict with others sometimes. Let the haters hate. You can’t do anything about that. Just hold your head up high and keep being your awesome self.
I wish in the decade-plus since I wrote this that single mom shame wasn’t still a thing, but it’s still a thing. Keep rocking the sane, solo parenting, CN!
I think culture has a big role to play here too. Being someone from an “eastern” culture, living in the US, I myself feel the tug of individualistic values versus communal values all the time. Even in dealing with infidelity in marriage. It is a difficult set of confusing ideas to try to wade through, and no one can really tell you how to do it, but the work of muddling through it, trying to make sense of the different message we receive, and deciding where the best path lies IS your work! And it is honorable work! You will figure it out, over time. Just know that you are not alone, and you are asking the right questions!
I like this: know where you start and other people end.
I smell a new t-shirt or mug.
Does your culture believe that a man who spends time away from his child, to spend it with ow, is a good father? I will guess not. And that is why you had
I come from the same type of culture where things are “public” and everyone is involved (also true in this culture once you have put your business out there, do people know they are now supposed to stop telling you their opinions?)
We are also not used to single parenting, but gently remind any family member that stbx did fool a lot of you and that your single parenting was a result of his actions ( I don’t think they want it as a ” choice” for your culture quite yet, and frankly neither did you). And that there is nothing wrong with your child being exposed to your values rather than his deceit. Nothing to pity about that. Some people think your child is missing out on the good of having a father when 1. He wasn’t around to begin with so being married was a cover for him as you were already on your way to being a single parent 2. Him being around means he gets to corrupt the child by trashing you as he does a lot….no one will think this s good.again, some of us are part of a larger group and I am not sure it is only approval seeking rather than a different way of life in which Anudi participates and feeds into that ” approval seeking” that others in her culture feel as well.
Parenting on your own is a consequence of his actions.
“He wasn’t around to begin with so being married was a cover for him as you were already on your way to being a single parent…”
Well said, Boo! That’s a great way to look at the situation for those of us with kids.
Very well said, Boo.
One of the shittiest things about infidelity and divorce is cheaters force our hands, and then we’re blamed for a terrible set of choices.
Latest news on my shit fight is ex says to youngest son he can stay one of the weekend nights but chainsaw man. WTF. How can you ask a kid to make that choice. 13 years old. What is with these cheaters. Sounds like desperation to hold onto CSM but of course ill get the blame.
This is all just hard work ,for the boys as well
STBX pulled that crap, saying ‘you can come over but OW will be here’ knowing they didn’t want to see or spend time with her. I finally sat them down and talked to them, telling them that this was the reality of the situation and it was time to deal with it, mainly because the drama was constant and every time they were supposed to go over to his there was hysteria. Now they spend time with her and it’s boring and she’s dull and they just ignore her and the drama is gone.
I don’t like that the dumb cow who hurt my kids now gets time with them but I prefer this to the constant drama that was happening every single week.
Nord you seem so strong and rising above everything to act in the best interests of the children.
In my case the boys get on well with mum. It’s just that they don’t know or trust CSM. They know everything and maybe because they’re older than your kids they are able to form their own opinion although I get blamed for it by the ex.
They just don’t want to meet him. They also don’t spend any time with ex by their own choice even though she is close by. Whether its guilt or she wants more time with CSM she doesn’t push spending more time with boys.
She is just angry that everyone just can’t get on with each other and move on. It’s all about entitlement. Forget about the drama she and CSM caused th family. Lets just move on.
Sorry that should read CSM is also staying.
Exactly. My stbx still likes to blame me for “kicking him out of the house”. He wishes we could have “compromised”. Um, my compromise was that I gave you an opportunity to show me you deserved a second chance and you failed. Apparently I needed to compromise on my compromise.
I think we are especially vulnerable to feeling blame and guilt because in all likelihood we have already spent years living w a selfish person who blamed us if they didn’t get exactly what they wanted at the moment they wanted it. They were never really happy and a lot of the time it seemed like it was our fault. Whether they openly blamed us or “just” passive aggressively, they made sure we felt like we never measured up. So failure is a familiar feeling for us and the fact that they cheated means that, in their skewed perception, we really didn’t measure up for them. And even though we now know they are the screwed up selfish ones w unrealistic expectations and we are the ones that had the strength and courage to leave, it is still hard to fully believe all the positive stuff about ourselves because they fucked w our minds for so long.
This is spot on. For 25 years I apologized/took the blame for countless things that were either not my fault, or were unrealistic expectations. The FW is an incredibly intelligent person, but always seems to find a way to sabotage himself, blame others, and then play the victim.
Its so disgusting, Another Erika. He is “poor man”. I have forced him into cheating one after another. But I allow him this mindfucking, so he does!
Great song, by the way. Looks like I’m heading back on a Jill Scott kick. She’s brilliant.
Dear Anuddi,
You are a lovely, beautiful, caring person. I went through the same thing 30 years ago when I left my X (I call him my XX now, we are friends) and I’m so glad I did for our daughters sakes. They are amazing, strong, smart and loyal and altho’ they love him, they know he’ “just not right”. It is the best thing I could have done for them, and me. Hang in there – Chump Lady-and the “Chumpettes” were sent straight to me when I’ve needed them the most, I rely on thier words every day, and if you just keep reading you’ll find the answers. XO
Thank you, Toni. And Boo is right. I have always been a single mother (only formally now) and now I understand why his father never had time for his son. He was just so busy. It is work to keep so many undercover operations running for all these years! It is also work to generate stories of “poor man whose needs are not met”, which keeps the spouse and OWs on their toes to try to please the poor man. Where has the “poor man” got any energies left to be equals and partner responsibilities of the kids and the household?
“…it’s quite another to shrivel up and loathe yourself if they don’t approve. When you’re clear on your values and who you are, then the slings and arrows of others’ judgements cannot hurt you in the same way. If you need their good opinion to feel good about yourself? You’ll give their disapproval a lot of weight.”
Ugh. The above statements fit me to a tee. I’m trying to work on this behavior. I have always been a people pleaser who wants everyone to like her. Logically, I know that’s impossible, and I’m constantly working on letting go of the notion that my self-worth is based on what other people think of me.
Thanks for this, CL. You hit upon so many things that go beyond infidelity but are still very important for fellow chumps to consider.
CL is kind of amazing and just the tonic the doctor ordered for us chunps. Hurrah for CL!
You wrote, “I was approval seeking earlier too and this was my weakness, which my husband exploited.”
There are ***many*** of us in the same boat here, Anudi.
I agree that having boundaries and nurturing a sense of your true self is important. I would add only that seeking the approval of others is not always a bad thing. As you said, this habit resulted in harm to you because your husband *exploited* it. But not everyone will use your care and concern against you. There are good people in the world who will return your desire to please them with–guess what?–a desire to please you! Which is wonderful thing, as I ultimately found out when I divorced my serial cheating wife and found my second wife. So I wouldn’t abandon the people-pleasing part of your personality altogether; just learn to be more discerning in who you bless with that generosity.
WEll said, Nomar, because the stuff we gave to our cheaters wasn’t appreciated…yet there are people out there who will adore it, adore us and recognise what a gift it is to have a loving and loyal partner in their lives. And those who don’t appreciate it? Sad for them, I think. They’ll never know real true deep love.
Your self worth is based on what you think of you, and that’s why it’s so important to hold to strong values, so you can evaluate what others think of you against your own values–and keep or discard their opinions.
Well, part of the problem, of course, is that each of us Chumps really valued family and marriage. We may have even held certain prejudices against divorced women/men, divorce itself, a person’s inability to keep a marriage intact, single parenthood. And I while I think my value of marriage and fidelity is right-on, I sure have had to re-think how I feel about some divorce.
I don’t like having to reveal that I’m divorced or “single” because I feel like an outsider, like a bit of a loser–do I seem “harsh” and “bitter”? I ask myself.
I used to look at a lot of single moms–down my nose, mind you–and think, “Well, obviously she’s a bit immature, didn’t pick well, did she? How could she be so blind?”
Ah, I’ve had to turn that on myself, too. Truth is, I was young and immature at love, and didn’t pick well. I’ve had to examine where I went wrong, what red flags I missed or refused to see, and I’m still working on figuring out why I thought he was the best I could do. Will I pick another one just like him, is there something wrong with me, or have I grown up and matured? Time and experience will tell.
I have come to know that I still value marriage and fidelity and I’m really happy for happily married couples who VALIDATE my values! See??! Two imperfect people CAN make it work. See? Marriage and fidelity ARE worthy enterprises! Good–I’m NOT crazy.
And, too, I realize that not everyone who appears to be happily married is happily married. Would I trade places with a lot of my happily married girl friends–would I be happy with their husbands? No. So, while I value marriage, I also must realize that I for myself value certain qualities in a marriage, qualities that are rare.
I made a mistake, and it’s up to me to forgive myself for picking wrong and enduring unkind, unloving treatment. I’ll get there–particularly when I’ve settled upon knowing where and how I went wrong.
I realize not everyone is going to approve of me–sometimes they don’t know the whole truth, sometimes they are resentful of their own situations and wish they could have their independence. Enough people who I respect and admire, also respect and admire me, and that’s really going to have to be enough for me–even though I am an eternal people pleaser. I’ve learned enough in my years that I don’t even WANT certain people’s approval–I don’t VALUE their approval, often because I don’t approve of them.
Seek joy in your own life, make and execute your own plans. Be good at something YOU love to do. Be too busy to worry about what ugly people think of you. Bring joy and smiles to others with your thoughtfulness and hard work, not by being someone you are not. Be beautiful, but know that sometimes your warmth will never be enough to melt certain people’s ice-cold hearts.
You will be ok.
Stephanie….what a beautiful post. So many things in there to think about. Thanks for sharing it–it’s given me lots to think about, despite the fact that I am not thinking about STBX so much,…but I guess that’s the point of your post…to figure out US and why we dealt with so much bullshit
Never again, I say. And go listen to some Jill Scott. Tracy was spot on posting her song. she is a powerful and strong woman and her words are amazing…for both men and women.
Thank you Chump Lady! Someone said you are exactly the tonic needed. So true!
I understand that my own prejudices about being a divorcee, single mom etc. are creating a big dissonance, somewhere deep within. However, I am thankful to a handful of friends and family, who supported me and continue to support me, even in my context. I think I will wade through. Just some more courage to stand up for myself, when my boundaries are violated. I think I shall be able to do that 10% when I have already done the other 90% of severing ties with a cheater husband, standing on my own and taking care of my household and son.
I understand that I shall have to apply discretion in choosing people too. I have to internalize that I needn’t explain myself to those who won’t understand me anyways. I may start to pity them for their small thought.
Yes Anudi, this approval seeking behavior is very common in chumps. What you are looking for is validation. I completely understand. You have suffered terribly and you want other people to acknowledge that and approve of your decision to leave. But please remember that you already have that approval – not from everyone – but from the people who really count. I believe that because you said, “In the process, my husband lost a lot — his friends’ and employers’ respect, distrust of his son and a number of his family members.” You also mentioned “a good set of supportive parents and family.” So Anudi, the really important people in your life, the ones who love you, already do see your pain. They understand why you left. These are the people that will give you the support you need to get through this.
The rest of society is fickle. These folks come and go and their opinions are less important. I know it hurts when you are judged by others. Most of us have had our name dragged through the mud, and our reputation as a wife/husband smeared. It sucks. We want to fight back. But in the end, it won’t make a difference. People make up their minds and that’s that!
About being a single mother – I hope this story helps. I had a very brief, and abusive, marriage when I was young. I had two sons with that monster. I left when they were 2 and 1 years old. Yes…it was that bad. One day, my son (who was 6 years old at the time) came home from school in tears. Another boy had taunted him with the fact that he was from a “broken family.” I assured him that this was very true. At one time, he had a broken family. But by leaving, we had fixed our family. From that day on, he was proud that he came from a “fixed” family. We still laugh about that to this day and he is 22 years old now.
Take care of yourself. You sound like a very nice person.
Thank you Sher and especially for giving me hope about “broken and fixed back family” concept. Yes, I have fixed it. My son doesn’t have to take the shit sandwich. He is a happy go lucky kid. Let him grow in a serene environment.
Thank you Chimera, Anne, Nord, Nomar, Movingon, Stephanie and all of you who made my day by your valuable insights.
If you don’t appreciate me, you don’t deserve me.
In the end, it’s that simple
Amen!!!
Hi Anudi,
I feel like my life experiences and yours are so similar…sometimes very painful. I had an “aha moment” reading your inquiry and Chump Lady’s response. The purple Martian analogy really made me get it!!! 🙂 I wish you the best!
Anne
“You gave your marriage your very best effort. No one is perfect, and your ex-husband certainly wasn’t. You could not control him, and you should never have had to tolerate his disrespect and abuse.”
Great column today CL. Not sure why, but I’ve been melancholy lately. I think the holidays and too much interaction with the FW. Just what I needed to hear.
At times like these when we feel at our most vulnerable, we need to be our own best buddy and biggest cheerleader.
This is heavy shit and no one gets it unless they’ve walked it.
Put yourself first and do what’s right for you and those who depend on you.
People who judge the most have one foot trying to keep that closet overflowing with skeletons shut.
It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks or does- they aren’t walking in my shoes and have no idea of my current reality.
If they’re not supporting me or think they can lecture or sit in judgment of me, they can GTFO of my life and kiss my arse.
For those interested in reading about how to stop people pleasing, I highly recommend this book.:
Not Nice: Stop People Pleasing, Staying Silent, & Feeling Guilty… And Start Speaking Up, Saying No, Asking Boldly, And Unapologetically Being Yourself Paperback – by Dr. Azia Gazipura
On my mind this morning is the classic cheater defense, “no one is perfect” and its cousin, “you aren’t perfect either.”
That is correct. I am not perfect. No one is perfect. Yes.
But imperfections are not equal.
I have imperfections and shortcomings. They don’t include doing things I know will hurt others and lying about it.
I can say I was perfect at maybe the most important thing, which was forsaking all others, something I found very easy to be perfect at, and very likely the only one anyone in a relationship needs to be perfect at.
I’m bothered by the fact that the OP’s therapist was focusing so heavily on supposed self esteem issues which clearly resulted in the OP having… low self esteem about her low self esteem!
When I prosecuted a workplace stalker, most of the victim/witness services available through the court were geared for battered women so I had the repeat, annoying experience of intake people asking me– right out of the bloody gate as I tried to sign up– why I thought I “deserved” to be abused. I said I didn’t. I was stalked by a coworker, not a partner. I’d never even dated the guy. And I put the guy in jail. Doesn’t that kind of suggest I don’t think I “deserved” it?
But so many intake people or “helping professionals” would keep stubbornly drilling in that direction– basically doing damage to my self esteem on the basis that I supposedly had low self esteem– as if this was the one hammer they had so every problem had to be a nail. Or else, on learning my case didn’t fit the pigeon hole, the intake people would drop the approach and then try to actually confide in me their general contempt towards battered women: “Oh at least you’re not like those battered women we deal with who keep going back.”
I heard some version or other of that sneering snark from many people, including the head of a major state shelter and an ADA. They wanted me to nod along and take my pat on the head at the expense of other women but it felt disgusting and treasonous. I started trying to push back though I didn’t have the data or tools yet to do this effectively. So I decided to get the tools and be effective.
It was seeing how DV survivors were treated in official helping channels that first motivated me to get involved in advocacy for victims and especially to search for organizations that offered an alternative to this victim-blaming pallooza. I started to develop a growing sense of genuine horror over the consistently contemptuous, patronizing attitude of people doing crisis triage for women in the throes of violent, catastrophic abuse. It seemed not only incompetent and potentially retraumatizing but dangerous. I wasn’t even a DV victim at the time and still found it retraumatizing and even declined services just to get away from the patronizing attitude. I imagined that was probably true of countless DV victims and wondered how many had died rather than be subjected to more humiliation.
Because I remembered reading something about this kind of clinical victim-blaming in Susan Faludi’s Backlash years before, I hit the library and book stores and started pulling on that thread of criticism for standard therapeutic response to DV survivors and came across a trove of reformist views including the work of Dr. Evan Stark who, using research and statistics, almost single-handedly gutted the traditional victim-blaming approach. But apparently no one had shared the news with most helping professionals specializing in DV who, at the time, were almost all stubbornly operating from the blamey perspective. Then I found a network run by people who knew about Stark’s work and were hiring based on the Soteria House model– non-mental health professionals who were survivors themselves and/or had strong affinity to the non-blaming view of survivors outlined by Stark and a few other experts.
But for all his decades of work and research, Stark and other reformists were still “outliers” and clinical rebels then. Consequently, the network I found operated on a shoestring from private funding because, as it turned out, spewing the blaming view was apparently necessary to get state funding. That was the first hint that the blaming view prevailed because it aligned with dah patriarchy. It was also an education in how science is corrupted and weaponized by politics and that, to fight back politically and move the dial on policy, regular people have to develop at least functional literacy.
I discovered that the then-prevalent therapeutic assumption that victims’ self esteem was somehow causal to abuse and needs chastising correction comes from applying traditional victim-blaming theories like the “psychological deficiency” theory of abused women– the idea that, due to preexisting psychological issues, victims are “drawn” to abusers or draw abusers to themselves on– as we bitterly joked– “dysfunctional Voodoo tractor beams” or “low self-esteem beams.”
To quote Dr. Emma Katz from the Mighty podcast interview with CL, that view that victims all come from childhood trauma and have preexisting “issues” is statistically “rubbish.” Abuse victims as a whole don’t statistically differ from the general population in terms of background or psychology, etc. What is not true of the whole or even most survivors should never be automatically assumed to be a factor. Not that it couldn’t be a factor making it more difficult to escape but it’s not why victims were victimized in the first place and therefore shouldn’t be the first assumption that’s foisted.
But as Stark and his wife and fellow researcher Ann Flitcraft argued, helping professionals typically led with the blaming model. And because those that did would typically encounter far more failure to “liberate” victims from abuse, Stark and Flitcraft noted that, rather than blaming the junk science theory for this failure, these helping professionals would simply double back more blame on victims for failing to be helped by the unhelpful theory. This would then fuel increasing contempt that these helping professionals would develop towards victims over time.
Stark believed that what lends false credence to the bad theory is that a certain percentage of survivors– though no higher than the general pop– will have experienced previous trauma and also that survivors will obviously all universal have self-esteem issues following abuse. But Stark and Flitcraft called this therapeutic reversal of cause and effect “Misapplication of Contingency.”
Thankfully there’s been an increasing shift away from the moldy old theories in advocacy channels for domestic abuse. But guess who dusted off the debunked junk science and is now repurposing it to damage, shame and blame yet another set of abuse survivors? Esther Perel, the RIC establishment, “sex addiction” guru Patrick Carnes and the whole CSAT clusterfuck.
What a disaster. Because it’s now increasingly frowned upon to apply the split-blame/two-to-tango model to victims of overtly violent abuse, the above clown collective are actually incentivized to combat and tamp down any attempt to correlate cheating with categorically criminal forms of domestic abuse– meaning the mercenaries are effectively standing in the way of progress in that sense.
Thank you so much for putting the contempt from professionals that were supposed to help you, me and so many others, that I also got as DV survivor and you as stalking victim into words! It’s really grim.
While I did grow up in an abusive family, on the self-esteem thing: there is also another side to it. I watched a documentary on romance scam victims. One of the issues was they believed themselves lovable/sexy, while the average target group would not have. I don’t mean “they were unattractive”, not necessarily. Just that the man in his early 70s was looking for a woman in his 30s. For the women, while there was one woman who was convinced an entirely age-inappropriate guy (offline) was having the hots for her (he just scammed her of course), for most women it was more what I did: projection. I thought “I don’t think I am too old with 5 years older than him”, ignoring that all research we have on this shows that the actual age that men target would be 12 years younger (for my age group – it widens the older you get)! Same with Debra Newell, who did that offline scammer game twice, with two different husbands who had only married her to drain her money as quickly as possible. The first scammer husband she married already revealed that he wasn’t attracted to her during the honeymoon, when he tried to delay sex with her (she had insisted they wait until after marriage), yet asked the hotel to set him up with younger sexworkers… (she was hidden and overheard that). Both scammer husbands were slightly older than her. (The 2nd scammer husband, the infamous one, who was killed in self defense by her daughter, was talking to women on three online dating platforms the day of their marriage.) Debra is absolutely gorgeous and was asked to be in Playboy when younger, but she is simply too old for them. Additionally, she was wealthier than both of them. That was my mistake too – just because I (and many other women) think it’s fine to date a man who makes less than us, that is not what research shows about male views at all. Domestic violence increases by almost 40% if the woman earns more than the man.
Plus, and that one is of course even more awkward: I thought myself lovable. I see myself as lovable. The problem is that no one else does, due to my autism. That same situation exists with many many disabled people. The issue bizarrely is ultimately a “too high self esteem” (also in the Debra Newell case, although she isn’t disabled).
This interpretation doesn’t really fit my experience working in fashion and knowing a lot of women who’d been on magazine covers– basically the stereotypes of “conventionally attractive.” The experience left me with the impression that it’s insecurity and/or trauma or both that make people vulnerable to love-bombing, not excessive confidence.
Maybe what you’re trying to say is that people who put all their confidence or self-value “eggs” in only one basket (like thinking people’s only value is appearance or ability to earn money, etc.– not courage or kindness or character, etc.) are vulnerable to having that one, very limited trait constantly bolstered up and fawned over because the rest of their neglected souls are rotting.
But I can attest that people like this aren’t healthy or resilient in reality even if they use bravado as a cover. They’re basically charred out wrecks with no sense of genuine values or security if they can’t even love themselves much less others unconditionally. Any threat to that single valued trait and they have misery meltdowns. They can also be awful parents who “tiger mom/dad” and brutalize their own children by the same rigid standards regardless of whether it’s about appearance or accomplishment. In clinical terms, this kind of “prodigying” of children has been compared to sexual abuse of a child since the demand that children provide gratification for adults is just as damaging whether it’s about making the adult “proud” or sexually serving them.
But if people have a more rounded sense of human value for themselves and others, they don’t seem as susceptible to being glazed with praise. For instance, I knew a woman who was the Victoria’s Secret “it” girl for several seasons. She didn’t like any kind of comments on appearance and used to swallow air and tell men to “fuck off” in this hilarious burping devil voice when approached and fawned over. She wasn’t just flexing. She was literally allergic to flattery due to excessive exposure and seeing what it did to other people. She once punched someone for trying to touch her aggressively. The attitude wasn’t that unusual and one friend told me that she resented the objectification because it could corrupt women into thinking their only value was something that would fade with age. In other words, resisting the fawning was to protect one’s sense of personal value based on more enduring and important things as well as avoiding being used.
The interesting thing is that the women who didn’t buy their own hype were usually from working class or even poor families and were originally drawn to the profession as a leg up to pay for school, start their own businesses or help out their families. They also tended to be way more radfem than women in more erudite professions like law or academia. Burping girl founded a global wares empire and now gives massive amounts to charity. She also came forward about harassment and abuse of children in the industry.
But I also knew equally successful models who, due to horror show upbringings, were actually drawn to the profession because of the hype, not in spite of it. They seemed to need constant fawning to maintain self image and confidence in appearance. Mostly they only hurt themselves with this attitude. I also knew women who were severely traumatized by that rapey industry as adults and ended up vulnerable to lovebombing as a reassurance that they were safe and because sexual trauma can cause body dysmorphia. I knew a lot of models who secretly felt “ugly” because of this.
One psychologist compared the susceptibility to lovebombing as akin to sugar cravings: if you’re starving or severely nutrient deficient, you’ll have strong cravings. But if you’re generally getting good nutrition and enough vitamins, minerals and healthy fats, you’ll crave sugar and junk food less or it might even make you sick.
No, none of the above. What I am saying is: it doesn’t matter whether YOU (not you personally of course, “one”) thinks because of healthy self esteem that they are lovable and attractive. It matters whether OTHER people think that. If only YOU think that, but the other does not – that sets you up for abuse. My examples were: me and other disabled folks – even if let’s say our parents and our teachers or whoever (all the instagram posts) tells us that we are lovable cause “disability inspiration porn”, but that isn’t the truth or may not gel with gender roles in straight relationships, then healthy self esteem sets you up for abuse.
Same with a different type of projection – Debra Newell is/was hot. But any hot doctor her age would not go for a woman her age – why would he? He can go younger. (John also explicitly said that to his already younger exwife, who was not unattractive at all either – “I will kill you and then sit in Bermuda on the beach with a hot 22 year old.” He laid his desires bare.) Plus: men on average don’t value high professional accomplishment if they are more accomplished than them (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3813652). Debra was much more accomplished than even John’s fake career. Much wealthier.
So what I am saying is: it’s important to know your actual market value, not project your own/your gender’s preferences onto the other.
“One psychologist compared the susceptibility to lovebombing as akin to sugar cravings: if you’re starving or severely nutrient deficient, you’ll have strong cravings” Yes, I agree with that. But research also just shows that psychopaths are deemed to have/show more empathy than sane men and more empathy is seen as attractive. They seem to have more of the thing we want – but if we ignore that that kind of heightened empathy is not the norm for straight men raised in patriarchy, we see what it actually is: a egoistic con. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-023-00356-1
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. The one exception is this insistence that “Any hot doctor her (Newell’s) age would not go for a woman her age.”
Never mind my own contrary experiences, I’m kind of worried that you’re become particularly sensitive towards and perhaps susceptible to ageism spin because I’m aware that the trauma from abuse, particularly sexually themed abuse, can often cause age dysphoria in survivors of any gender or orientation. It’s a very strong theme in rape and incest survivor networks whether because people fear being targeted for their age or fear being refused help and support because others don’t believe that “someone their age” could be exploited or raped (Giselle Pelicot comes to mind).
But the reality is that men aren’t a monolith and not all men are creeps. Not even all abusive men have the same exact creepy predilections (Giselle Pelicot again). I wish for your own sake that you were a bit more suspicious of the agenda behind this disheartening spin that “all men” are ageistic. At the very least this questionable theory could leave you unprepared to be preyed on and assaulted by some younger dude. Or, alternatively, courted by one who might even be worth your time and understand what you’ve been through.
I would like to recommend reading the decades-old but sadly still relevant Backlash by Susan Faludi for an explanation of why ageistic junk science that’s disheartening to women has always been aggressively promoted in the media.
Yes, I agree with you on Pelicot though. I think older women being raped is likely under reported: I already know not to report a rape and I am half her age. Plus I know several women who had to stop working in retirement homes after they were sexually assaulted. However, Gisele Pelicot is also a case in which a wealthier woman with higher education married a man who was not successful career-wise and had lower education then her (and here we’re back at the higher incidences of DV if she is more successful than him). He enjoyed the fancy lifestyle her career success afforded them, raped her while sedating her… and raped several much younger women in their early 20s plus his grandkids. Killed a woman in her 20s that he raped.
No, seriously: if I had just understood that I am not attractive to a man who is 5 years younger than me… not even a man who is 5 years older than me… I would have saved myself so much PTSD, financial trouble, protected myself from physical and sexual violence, all the cheating etc…
It isn’t spin. It’s simply derived from Big Data. And evolution. And women also prefer younger according to the same Big Data sets – they just start preferring younger a tad later than men. My mom also discussed that with me after her divorce (she was 50), how she found all men her age … not attractive… only younger men. It’s just that us women because of patriarchy don’t really have the option to go younger. Plenty of young women marry older men – especially after the men turn 50. Because women are socialized differently. The other way round is much more “sugar mama” and enjoying the destruction of a woman – “I conned her while having a real girlfriend, a younger one on the side”. My FW yelled at me that I didn’t deserve to have a higher salary than him when he assaulted me – although that was the only reason he targeted me. Like Debra Newell. Back to my mom: I could also see it – men her age were all hitting on me (deeply uncomfortable), not her, and she was a former model. Evolution is what it is. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want to see more media representation of older women. Men leaving their first wife in mid-age for a younger woman is a cliche for a reason. And not because it’s so uncommon. 😉 And you’d have to explain how marriage stats are junk science: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/08/study-men-who-remarry-really-do-prefer-younger-women/
You honestly think there’s no problem with big data? Or vying politicized theories in evolutionary science? No agendas?
As per usual, I forgot the most important thing: I don’t believe that consecutive Democrat- and Republican-lead governments have falsified US remarriage data for a joint politicized agenda.
Correct, I don’t think there is no problem with Big Data. I do however think there is a big problem with “personal incredulity” as argument for why something that we have many many millions of data points for – and many chumps on here who have been swapped out for a younger version of themselves, whose experiences we should not denigrate.
Plus (and you keep ignoring this): women also prefer younger men.
I don’t think it’s denigrating the experience of people whose cheaters cheated with younger side pieces to suggest that not all men are ageistic, age-gapping pervs. Of course ageistic pervs, like all abusers, would love it if everyone believed this was the norm so that their victims had no hope of ever finding social support much less better partners. That’s why all abusers commit “perscecticide”– to replace their victims’ world views and self perceptions with the abusers’ own nihilistic, depressing views as a means of gaining control and colonizing the minds of victims.
It’s why I get itchy about sweeping generalizations, particularly those framed as “science” and that also pretend to be from a feminist perspective but, in fact, are promoting the same “dick scarcity” myths that Susan Faludi wrote about in the 90s and exposed as an industrial scheme to drive women to lower their standards and give up on career dreams out of “desperation.”
The meaning of your “personal incredulity” crack isn’t lost on me. It’s not the first time you’ve used the typical “cognitive bias” disses favored by industrial front groups like the Skeptics. It can be wrapped up in neurosciency-speak till the cows come home but it’s still “getting personal” (“post hoc fallacy” = “you sToOpId”). It’s a tired debate tactic, also very familiar because I spent 12 years battling brigading coalitions of Skeptic and Incel Monsanto/Bayer trolls (they crossbreed for some reason) when working for an eco publication. They always get personal when their “science” is questioned with conflicting science and out comes the latinese shade– post hoc ergo propter hoc!
Considering the crossbreeding between front groups, it’s no surprise the same coalition now seems to have gone rabidly antifeminist and is starting to sound eerily like Elliot Rodger’s “manifesto” which was also peppered with evolutionary science bs in making generalizations about human nature. The coalition is promoting– under the the same aegis of “rationalism” and “sCiEnCe” they originally defended herbicides, food additives and anti-Muslim animus– a lot of the same scarcity spin Faludi warned about.
My son sent me a funny link on the melding of ideology and tactics between Skeptics and the Redpill/Incel manosphere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94_5mXsQTpA
It’s interesting you should say that, because I have been targeted by romance scammers online a few times. Somebody would ask to PM me and I would say yes out of curiosity, and out would come what might be considered a plausible backstory. At first. Then they gave themselves away by being too complimentary and too ardent.
I have a realistic sense of my value on the open market, so I spotted it immediately. It made me wonder how anyone could ever be fooled by such rubbish. I concluded that you had to either have unrealistic notions of how desirable you are or you have to believe in a lot of romantic nonsense. So it’s either; “Of course this person wants me that badly. Why wouldn’t s/he?” or; “Maybe I’m not as great of a catch as s/he says, but everyone has a soul mate out there who will overlook their flaws and I was just lucky enough to find mine.”
💯 “I concluded that you had to either have unrealistic notions of how desirable you are or you have to believe in a lot of romantic nonsense.”
Most lovescammed men are in the former group (“I’m an awesome 65M who this 25F stripper/employee/waiter/babysitter genuinely loves for ME, not just for my money! She is witty and smart and laughs at all my jokes! 🫠”)
Most lovescammed women are in the latter group: “He’s a good man because he told me so, and I have been groomed in this patriarchy to have HIMpathy and internalized misogyny for days, and of course his ex wives were crazy bitches, and wait a minute, do ya’ll think I’m just overreacting about him following all of these Instagram models?… oh wait.”
Sadly or necessarily, I have had to stop being nice. After my 2nd divorce 1.5 years ago, I attracted creepy married men that needed to be shut down. Same kind of men as my X that were attracted by my fear, refusal to say a firm No, wishy washy cute ways, and the reports from my X that I stopped serving him, so these creeps were seeing me as a vulnerable catch now. I am learning how to Grey rock and no contact with these people. Also my Switzerland friends and family, needed instructions on decent behavior… in my book. It has been a 360 which my necessary anger helps to fuel. My therapist tells me that being CLEAR is Kind, and if my words don’t work, then my actions must speak for me. I am thrilled that my sister says I’m not nice anymore. I see those creeps back away and others lose interest as I’m not smiling anymore. I will likely hit a balance one day when i am stronger but for now Im borderline rude and cut people off quickly. I’m at the age of no more intimate men in my life, so my Fawning, appeasing and placating behavior has got to change now, or it never will. I have compassion for the woman who tried to please those that took advantage of me, but it feels good now to step up on the defense of my being more true to myself. This site and stories and Tracy’s amazing million people blogs, gets the point across. Thank you CL and CN for holding me accountable to change what I can. Chump no longer open for business.
That’s the way.
No more Ms Nice Doormat from us!
It’s taken a while for me to learn that not everyone has my best interests at heart.
Ballbag McGee was a friend of my cousin’s and became a friend of mine too- until he wasn’t.
Dickhead McCluggage was a friend from when we were teenagers- safe bet right? Nope.
He took what he knew about me and my first abusive marriage and exploited it under the disguise of a man I could trust.
He used my previous DV experiences to control me and what he didn’t know, he researched online before we met up again .
He planned the whole thing and thought I’d be the fluffy Barbie Doll I used to be.
It’ll be a perfect stranger next time if there ever is a next time.
Betrayal is a grief like no other.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDM-eduu-EP/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==