Family Wants Him to Get Along with Cheating Ex for the Kids
His friends and family want to know why he can’t get along with his cheating ex “for the kids’ sake”? He’s not doing anything uncivil, he just doesn’t want to be friends.
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Dear Chump Lady,
My ex-wife did all the classical stuff you describe including “asking for time to figure things out”, blame-shifting, reinventing the past… you name it.
What actually transpired is that after 14 years together, she fornicated with her new boss, the one she was warned about by colleagues. He dumped her right after, needing to “find herself” ensued at a hotel, followed by immediate reconciliation with the boss after she left home. He used her a few more times before dumping her again, and then others took his place. This culminated in destroying our little family with toddlers (and finally divorce).
Whilst financially ruined, I thankfully have 50/50 custody over our kids. Divorce completed just over six months ago.
Now here’s the cracker which I need help with:
My parents and several close friends, who were very supportive at the beginning, have started to give me the narrative of “you should stop being so negative about her / why are you still so angry / it’s time for you to build a better connection with her again”.
They, too, also started being friendly with her — small talk, giggles, asking how she is doing, etc. My father even wanted to meet her for a coffee to “speak about the future.” (She turned him down and blamed me). When I asked him why, he brushes me off as bitter and that I need build a “normal” relationship with her again.
It irritates the crap out of me and I find it confusing. I got 50/50 custody (still missing half their childhood thanks to her, but best legal outcome I could’ve hoped for) so there is no reason to brown-nose her to see kids.
The kids suffered significantly (regression, depression, therapy etc) and still do suffer (“I miss when mommy lived with us!”). Goes without saying that I also suffered a LOT. Therapists did not help (you were far better than any), all my savings are gone, she goes round parading her new (4th?) boyfriend around town and on social media, (prematurely) introducing him to the kids. I had to hold my tongue during the entire divorce process as I was extremely exposed financially and took advantage of her affair fog.
But now that’s done, I see zero value in having her around, excessively communicating or being unduly nice to her.
I am of course civil to her in front of kids and told them nothing about the truth. And we communicate just fine on any issues relating to kids (via text) e.g. life admin, sicknesses etc. I have settled into this new normal and so have kids.
Why can’t that be enough? What more do people want from me? Pretend we are just like any other family? Have weekly calls (she asked for that originally)? Small talk? Joint Christmas trips with new partners? Ask how her boyfriend is and whether the house she bought from my buy-out (financed by debt) is nice?
Despite what it sounds like, I’m getting pretty close to indifference and have met a wonderful new partner and the kids and I have a blast when together (during my time — I have not introduced them to any partner). But why do people think I should roll over and start being nice to frankly the most evil person I have ever met who hurt me and my kids? I think you said this and I’m paraphrasing: “You know what else kids need? A happy father”. And then happiest I can be is by being an amazing dad to my kids with minimal contact to a cheating liar.
All the very best,
Thomas
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Dear Thomas,
Sounds like you’re navigating this suck-fest very well. You don’t need commentary from the peanut gallery about the quality of your co-parenting, so shut that nonsense down.
Dad: “I think you should get along with your ex for the kids’ sake.”
Thomas: “How’s your sex life? Can you still get it up?”
Just volley one intrusive, inappropriate question for the other. (Okay, do not actually do this. We do NOT want the details of your father’s sexual hijinks.) Do have a boundary.
Thomas: “I’m not discussing my ex.”
You could, if you wanted an intense migraine, ask your father to interpret his “get along with the ex for the kids’s sake” directive. What exactly is his idea of divorce bonhomie? Has he ever been divorced or cheated on? Where exactly is this fatherly wisdom coming from? His own neurotic discomfort?
You ARE getting along.
You pay your financial obligations, take all of your custodial time, follow the court orders, don’t introduce the kids to paramours, and have built a new life. Yay you!
I find it’s always useful to be direct with people about what you want. You might not get it, but you will be clear with yourself and them about your expectations.
Thomas: “Dad, I have just navigated the biggest trauma of my life. I need your encouragement and support. Because I really value our relationship, I won’t be discussing my ex with you — and I’d appreciate the same.”
And then zip it. Ask yourself if you’re slopping your grief on them?
My parents and several close friends, who were very supportive at the beginning, have started to give me the narrative of “you should stop being so negative about her / why are you still so angry / it’s time for you to build a better connection with her again”.
I know you want your friends and family to be fully on your side, and champion your virtue against her suckitude, but people are incredibly disappointing this way. The kindest interpretation I have is that they may have compassion fatigue. That’s your cue to take venting about your ex to this community, or a therapist, or a fellow chump friend who gets it.
The other possibility is that you may not share values with these people.
Destroying your family for schtupping the boss! Not so bad! Who among us?!
In which case, back away slowly and get new friends. Or demote to casual acquaintances.
I see zero value in having her around, excessively communicating or being unduly nice to her.
You might put these Switzerland friends in a similar container.
Look, you’re up against powerful societal narratives that say you must remain friends with your ex and do not recognize double lives as abusive. People who haven’t lived it have one template for divorce — “we grew apart.” With zero hard feelings.
Of course this doesn’t reflect the reality of divorce. Unless you’re a freak, no one severs deep commitments casually and quickly. People divorce for heartbreaking reasons — infidelity, untreated mental illness and/or addiction, abuse. NONE of these are the foundation of friendship.
Pity? Sure. Trepidation and disgust? Absolutely. PTSD just thinking about it? Yep.
People want you to get along with your ex for the kids FOR THEM.
Because your vulnerability disturbs them. Your pain is upsetting. And they’d prefer to not rearrange their social calendar or think badly of someone they invested in. Of course, you invested in a FW too, but you got the brunt of their abuse. The FW didn’t hurt them. And empathy only extends so far, as you found out.
The kids have adjusted as well as could be expected. This isn’t about them either, they’re just a cudgel of guilt to bludgeon you with.
Another consideration is that FWs court your friends and family for impression management.
SEE! I AM NOT SO BAD THAT YOUR FATHER WON’T HAVE COFFEE WITH ME! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?
And if your father is easily bought for a coffee, he’ll go along with it. Because he prefers the narrative of the high road. Where we all remain friends. For The Children!
Personally, I aspire to be the sort of parent who, if you cheated on my child, I’d come after you with a shovel. To hit you with or dig a shallow grave. But I’m crazy like that.
Thomas, we don’t control other people. I’m sorry those closest to you have let you down. But the good news is other people don’t control us either. So, ignore their criticism, and just rock on with the sane parenting.
Thomas – Chump Lady gave you suggestions for dealing with others. Please give yourself a break.
You’re less than a year out from a financially and emotionally draining divorce process. Recovering from that (in addition to the infidelity) takes time and inside work.
Your children and any future relationships will benefit from healthy boundaries. That can include a brief and final explanation to your father.
Among the possible reasons for Thomas’s father’s “Swiss” behavior, there’s one in particular that could be very hard to stomach. I have a sickening suspicion that Thomas’s ex is not only a serial cheater but also a typical “mate poacher” along with all the twisted psycho-sexual incontinence, indiscriminate thirst for sexual validation, taste for betrayal, excitement over triangulation and transgressive sex and boundary-less psychopathy of both categories. In other words, the exFW may be turning on the oopsie-doopsie-hair-twirling-forgot-me-bra-and-knickers-fuck-me tractor beams towards dear old dad. And dad may be excessively flattered by the attention from a younger woman which might speak to his own character and boundary issues.
I hope that’s not the case and the explanation is a bit less grisly but, in any event, it seems to be a thing for disordered personalities to engage in surprisingly elaborate triangulation campaigns in order to undermine any potential social supports of their victims, both for the thrill of power and as a way to discredit victims’ narratives about abusers.
However Thomas proceeds in communicating with his father, he may have to consider the whole spectrum of motivations for his father’s inconstancy. In my personal experience, the turncoats and Swiss types within abuse dynamics are never wholly innocent but invariably have their own character issues and baked-in icky belief systems.
I wouldn’t be surprised. I went no contact with my mom about five years before my divorce because she became violent in front of my son and after years of issues, I’d had enough. During out last conversation she said to me, “Wait until (my husband’s name) finds out how you’re acting!” I asked her what she meant by that and she said, “Do you really think he’d choose you over me?!” and then laughed at me.
I chalked it up to my mother being crazy, because she is, but since the divorce I have wondered if they slept together and that’s why she said that to me. I know for a fact he would jump at the chance. I’ll never know the truth though.
They really have no boundaries. This kind of eeky behavior of seducing inlaws runs with my mother’s sisters. Herself she’s elderly but she does by proxy like trying to get her young employees & relatives to bang her married tenants & neighbors. Just to create drama. Everywhere they go mischief follows like a dark eerie shadow. I’m almost 10 yrs happily no contact.
You’re right, it’s zero boundaries. I just can’t imagine living like that. I think I’m about 10 years no contact with my mom now too, give or take. Every once in awhile I feel guilty because she is elderly now and I see lonely, elderly people at work all the time. But I just send her an anonymous gift of cookies when that happens and go about my day. I know I can’t reach out to her.
It’s like you had my mother in law as a mother. I never really thought about what it would have been like for some kid who was actually wired normally to be raised by someone like that. it was bad enough being around that woman as a full grown adult. But you’re actually giving a hellish account of what that would be like.
It’s like the reverse of changeling lore where a normal human child somehow lands among fiends.You’re what a few social researchers called the “bullet proof child” who, though raised by a monster, somehow grew in a different direction. But sadly that meant you got to feel every bit of the pain of the experience and perceive every bit of the insanity.
I hope that you’re life is peaceful now that you’re away from these terrible people and finding your own normally-wired tribe.
I like the term bullet proof child, thank you. In fairness, I don’t know that I felt everything though. My autoimmune disease affected my brain, really noticeably starting in my teens. I was able to detach from things and turn off feelings much easier than I think normal people can. I know when I became healthy, after finally starting proper treatment at 39, I had to experience what felt like extreme feelings to me. I grieved the loss of all my grandparents as if I never had, losses of pets, etc. My feelings became much stronger and painful things became more painful. It sucked that my divorce happened just a few months after that started. LOL
From childhood, I was that person who was real good in an emergency or tragic situation. I could turn the feelings off and deal with it later. I still loved people and felt happy and sad but pain and grief I could detach from. It’s funny now because I feel like that probably saved me during my childhood. The disease was killing me but it’s probably why I’m as normal and healthy as I am too.
Life is really great now. I have zero drama. Thank you for your kind words.
Even aside from numbing neurological effects, I imagine it’s not an unusual survival mechanism for people with risky health conditions to almost autonomically filter out stressful emotions that could potentially push their health over the edge.
I can attest that this kind of “pick your battles” stress management even happens when you’re a caretaker for others with risky conditions. When my son was at his sickest (also autoimmune related) and my own levels of stress started eroding my health in serious ways, I think I compensated by becoming pretty numb to some of the things happening around me– a state of numbness and blinkered perceptions that, in hindsight, FW obviously took advantage of.
In the disability parents arena, that stress management filter is sometimes jokingly referred to as a “brown out” emotional state and people in that world were always posting those grim/funny “dead inside” memes on social media. Everyone got it because parents of disabled and chronically ill kids have a habit of prematurely dropping like flies from stress related illness and this is why that state is viewed as a mixed bag. It beats croaking but, if you never experience grief, you also never experience real joy, not to mention having your danger radar set to red alert so that you start missing cues of very serious but not-quite-life-threatening risks.
Interesting how your feelings sharpened as you recovered. I also became more perceptive and more sensitized as my son recovered and the trauma of it started to fade a bit. That was FWs bad luck because it freed up my intuition and I started catching a few cues. I sometimes wonder if the emotional abuse he began engaging in right at that time was somehow intended to send me back into that numb, blinkered trauma-management state.
Yikes. Triangulation campaigns to undermine support and discredit. Yes. I only recently found out from my brother that the fuckwit had tried emailing my niece and nephew during the divorce, I had no idea! No idea what he said, since both of them say they didn’t bother reading, and just blocked him, and neither of them responded, but I can just imagine the whiny shit he would have come out with. Like when he actually said to my *solicitor* “please thank (my brother) for being there for chumpnomore. “. Vomit.
I think that probably closes the case that your ex is genuinely dangerous.
I don’t know if studies have been done on this kind of extreme triangulation but I have to imagine the behavior is associated with a certain grade of antisocial personality disorder and probably comes from the same impulse that serial killers have to return to the scenes of their crimes.
When working in the narc and perv filled media industry, I saw extraordinary examples of this– like really scary, brass-necked, super intrusive, going-way-out-of-their-way attempts by triangulating psychos to cull and cultivate a target’s allies. It happened to me several times and, on a certain level, I was always more “anthropologically” fascinated by it than really threatened.
But– wait– that’s kind of a relative statement since the behavior is very threatening on many levels and was, in at least two situations, the last straw driving me to take legal action against various culprits. I guess what I’m trying to say is that my fascination with the behavior outlived the sense of threat.
Take the case of one of the directors of the company I interned with in college who tried to assault me. Immediately after the attempt, he went around and called every one of my friends that he knew of, two of my professors and even my parents.
It was truly astounding and amazing to me that he thought he could sway his own victim’s parents. My mother picked up the phone and apparently listened to his bizarre spiel before issuing a very memorable warning, saying that if he thought “nice was weak” he was in for the biggest shock of his life. Then she told him to never come near any member of our family again and hung up.
But then after he managed to sway the two professors (weak minded, political old bats so no surprise) and two so-called friends, I realized that these types are just playing the percentages and counting on the sad fact that duplicitous twats like themselves lurk in all corners.
Think about that for a second: really shitty people actually have a rather realistic sense of human nature, at least enough to play the odds. I’m sure they learn this “lesson” within loveless families where everyone sells everyone else out for their own advantage or safety. It’s kind of tragic that these kinds of family dynamics are common enough that shitheads can expect the same is true for a lot of other people.
But, at least in my case, it was this douchebag’s bad luck that it was his triangulating behavior which pushed me past my fear of causing a professional scandal. I realized there was no way to win so I reported the assault to police and had him prosecuted– damn the torpedoes. That’s how I learned the very interesting life lesson that bullies often succeed in turning the social context against their own victims because weak-minded bystanders are prone lean to the loudest and nastiest monkey in the room. But if a bigger, badder, nastier monkey comes along– like, say, the justice system– all of a sudden the same bystanders will do a 180 and turn their backs on the bully.
Even if he only received a slap on the wrist, this freak lost a ton of social support and career traction after he was prosecuted. From then on I never pulled my punches, especially in response to this kind of triangulation. It’s really all about power.
Dear God. You are really brave, well done!
Thank you. I’m rather proud of the fact I went full #MeToo twenty years before the movement and put two workplace creeps in JAIL. Not for very long but that was still pretty rare in the late nineties. 😉
I had the same thought when I was reading about the giggling together and invitation for coffee. Dad and FW may be involved in a flirtation.
Like me, you have a cynical mind.😆
Agree OHFFS!
FWs are experts at finding people’s weak spots so she is simply manipulating ChumpGrandad and giving him flirty FW attention for her own purposes / ends. The main aim is to keep spreading the bullshit narrative about why she had an affair but also now the ever useful “Chump is being unreasonable” narrative. This shore up support for herself so she gets any number of advantages now or in the future. She sounds unhinged.
I’m in total agreement with CL on this one…”Personally, I aspire to be the sort of parent who, if you cheated on my child, I’d come after you with a shovel. To hit you with or dig a shallow grave. But I’m crazy like that”. Except I don’t aspire to be that person, I am that person!
In a perfect world, your father should not be having coffee with your cheating ex! But the world isn’t perfect and your father clearly has some issues with your situation. I wonder if there isn’t something in his background that has been triggered by your ex-wife’s cheating or if he’s just clueless. Doesn’t really matter. Boundaries are your only choice moving forward. And FIRM boundaries. Playing nice with your ex is not open for discussion and stick to that narrative. Learning how to change and reroute a conversation is a learned skill and can be mastered. I used to plan a list of subjects in advance so as to always have a topic to use to divert any conversation away from discussions about my ex. This list was specific for each person I met with. With time, they got tired of trying to discuss my divorce and my choice of blocking my ex from my life.
Just keep your focus on your new life with your kids. Concentrate on making new memories and family traditions. It will become the new normal faster than you think possible. And if certain family members want to include your ex? Well then they don’t get you and the kids. You are the only person who gets to make those decisions. Use that 50% time to create a new world for your “new” family! Anyone who pushes you or doesn’t agree with how you have decided to manage this, doesn’t get to be part of your new life.
Stand firm and enjoy your future.
My only advice would be don’t be too quick to jump into something with someone new. I was glad to hear you haven’t introduced your kids to your new girlfriend. They need a stable feeling in all of this chaos, and you seem to be the only one that can provide that. I am a daughter of divorced parents. My father abandoned us when I was 9. I remember thinking if my dad can disappear, maybe my mom will too. I would check her bed to see that she was there all the time. You never know what kids are thinking. Unless you are healed from your breakup, you will only be taking the broken pieces of yourself into that next relationship, so be careful. Seek therapy if you need it.
When I was going through my divorce, I met MANY people who were getting a SECOND divorce because they weren’t fully healed from the first divorce when they chose a new partner. Take your time and don’t assume your current girlfriend is The One. You are still in the early days of healing from a huge betrayal.
Thomas, CL’s advice is spot on. I was lucky in that I didn’t have children with the fuckwit, and my family were 100% on my side, but I did get remarks from so-called friends, like, “Well, he hasn’t done anything to me!” etc etc. These people are no longer friends, no contact. As CL says, some people are like that, basically they have no integrity, character, or a moral compass. I don’t need people like that in my life, and neither do you. You’re doing great, and just shut that shit down, using CL’s ripostes! Hugs to you and your kids. x
Come to think of it, Hitler never did anything to me personally. Nor Pol Pot nor Stalin. Consequently, I’m inviting them all to my do. If you attend, please don’t be a big bitter bunny bore and bring up, you know, killing fields, death camps and dekulakization.
That’s the mindset!
‘I did get remarks from so-called friends, like, “Well, he hasn’t done anything to me!”’
I got the same from a family member, only he said “us” meaning the rest of the family. Other family members were there when he said it and seemed to agree. Apparently, I was not considered part of “us.” That was heartbreaking.
Being chumped made me realize I was not loved by certain members of my family. I now have almost no dealings with them. I guess I can look at the good side of that, which is that I no longer have to waste my time and energy on maintaining a relationship with them.
Good for you for going NC with those so-called friends.
I’m so sorry. I remember how that felt too. The first Thanksgiving with our friends with him and not me was “the best one ever!” on social media and I remember how that felt like being stabbed. I didn’t have a great family, and thought I had built one with my husband, son, and friends. I was wrong. I only had a son.
That’s horrible, and so hurtful. And good for you for realising what bum paper they are.x
Oh yeah, I got a lot of that. i still remember, “Just because he lies to you, that doesn’t mean he would lie to me.” Right honey, that whole second life he hid from his family, you’re just so above that and above us. Good luck with that super special status. It just made me think she was sleeping with him.
It does make you wonder, doesn’t it?
I don’t understand people’s obsession to have these people in their lives no matter what they’ve done to others.
A friend of mine even said she’d still go and ask my FW for help even though he’s cut her off on social media – WTF for!?
It’s almost like it’s an opportunity for them to prove how special and superior they are. If the FW is nice to them but horrible to the chump, that makes them better than the chump (in their alleged minds.)
Yep. A so-called ‘mutual’ friend, female, was incensed he’d lied to *her*, but apparently it was just fine he’d lied to me. Looking back, I wouldn’t be surprised if she had been fucking him, either. Thank God all those scumbags are out of my life.
Thomas, several chumps and Tracy have previously mentioned using responses like, “It would be different if she came to me and asked for a divorce, then moved on. You wouldn’t expect to stay friends with someone who robbed your business or your house, and I don’t want to be friends with someone who hurt me and our kids by lying and cheating.”
the house she bought from my buy-out (financed by debt) Does this means that you’re actually still paying for her house? If so, I might mention it. “And yes, I’m not happy that despite HER cheating, I’m not only paying my mortgage on my own, I’m also paying the mortgage on the house she and her current boyfriend live in, money I could have been spending directly on the kids or saving for their college.” And if you don’t have a house yourself, I’d sure point that out, especially since you have the kids half the time.
You mentioned your parents, then wrote, My father even wanted to meet her for a coffee to “speak about the future.” (She turned him down and blamed me).
I wonder about the unilateral invitation from your father to your cheater ex, and why she
blamed you after she turned him down. That seems like an odd reaction if the invitation was just for coffee and conversation. I wonder if your dad was looking for sex, or if that’s how she saw it. I also wonder if your mom was aware of this invitation, and if so, why she wasn’t part of it, too.
If it helps, consider that it could be worse. Some chumps discover that our Switzerland friends and family, who profess neutrality, actively aided and abetted cheaters by hiding the cheating, the money, and even the children. In my case, a so-called best friend did all three. (For the latter, first by agreeing to supervise a visit, then allowing cheater to take off with child alone, and later helping with what appeared to be a botched kidnapping attempt. I now have sole custody and per court order cheater has no contact.)
Thomas, I’m sorry your family and friends want things to go back to the status quo with your ex, probably because it’s easier for them, especially after interacting with her through the 14 years of your marriage, and perhaps longer. Search the archives for “Switzerland friends,” read the replies, and keep rocking it.
💯 Dad was looking for something from his son’s cheater alright. Ego strokes most likely, and if sex happened – bonus! 🚩🚩🚩This gives me such a terrible ICK. I hate that so many of us have parents and other relatives or close friends who stab us in the back like this!
For me, it was my gay uncle who secretly reached out to my closeted gay cheater repeatedly and tried to hide it from me. It’s truly the reddest of red flags. Thank you for not spackling over Dad’s behavior here.
Yikes. I don’t think Dad was looking for sex! I imagine he probably just wants reassurance he’ll be in his grandchildren’s life (which he can get from Thomas). But it is weird that he’s chasing her and she doesn’t want the contact. Honestly, the fact that he wants continued contact is impression management enough without the awkward coffee.
People are so incredibly disappointing in times like these. I was married 20 years. July 27, 2020 I found out he hated me and wanted me dead. September 11, 2020, we were divorced. By my birthday on September 30, I was already being told that I “should be over it by now.” I didn’t even tell anyone until the divorce was finalized besides my two closest friends (who were supportive, thank God for them). So, compassion fatigue after talking to me once or twice, I guess. My own sister couldn’t seem to understand why it was a big deal for me. One friend told me she cried all day at work the day I told her but then she rolled her eyes at me when I was crying. Only time she ever saw me cry. She can cry over MY divorce but I can’t. I don’t understand people.
I even left a church group because the leader told me point blank that I WOULD be friends with my ex eventually. No ma’am. I am not friends with people who fantasized about my murder for years and gleefully told me about that in order to terrorize me. I left the whole church over that but I thankfully found a better one anyways.
I say all that to drive it home. Even in my case, where my ex is going to prison for being a literal pedophile, he made up insane, unbelievable lies about me, had a whole secret life, threatened my life, etc. people STILL act like I’m being petty and just trying to punish him for simply not being in his life. I’ve been called immature for it. And it’s like, I don’t associate with people like that AT ALL, why would I make an exception for the one who conned me into a 20 year fake marriage and wanted me dead?! It’s just so stupid and disappointing.
Churches can be horrible places when divorced or going through divorce. I facilitated divorce recovery groups for seven years in two different churches. One was terrible and the other was very supportive. Divorce just upsets the model of marriage they have created and causes a lot of cognizant dissonance. I took part in a DivorceCare group at a church where the pastors were participating the reconciliation of a convicted pedophile father and the young daughter he abused. This based on their misogynistic theory of men being leaders in their families and girls needing fathers in their lives. I was too shell shocked at the then to see this as monstrous at the time, but it horrifies me now.
The first church I lead DivorceCare thought it should be all about reconciliation over healing. It was not a safe place and we moved on. The second church was very supportive and not controlling. The pastor was encouraging when I switched to a non faith based curriculum over DivorceCare. This is a healthy church.
What a horrifying church. There are some really bad churches and religious people. It doesn’t affect my faith because the way i see it, Jesus had some terrible experiences with religious people too but I avoid them once identified as such.
The church I was going to first after my divorce, a group leader told me even after I explained my ex was a pedo that Jesus calls us to forgive. Umm, I don’t know what Bible she was reading but the one i read clearly states people are better off literally killing themselves than harming a child and suicide is a huge sin so… I shudder thinking of how the children in that church are not safe.
I stopped going to church until about a year after that when i was talking to a girl I work with about it and she said that’s why her church does background checks on all volunteers. She said “we aren’t letting any wolves in to prey on the sheep!” They were also very transparent about their finances and did a huge amount of outreach and connecting with charities, which is something else I was looking for. I found a great group of women there. But it took awhile.
Where are the millstones? “Gentle Jesus, meek and mild” was hell on hypocrites. Could his driving the money-changers from the temple be a negative commentary on the Prosperity Gospel?
LOL, yes, the millstones! Jesus didn’t stutter. He was quite clear.
And I hate the prosperity gospel so much. I stay far away from that nonsense.
My divorce was along those lines. The church people were truly the worst.
As a friend of mine likes to say (a true friend, not a fake), smile at them in the rearview mirror as you drive away from them to live your best life.
OMG! They think you’re being petty for not wanting contact with a pedophile?!?!?!? Those people are insane. I would go no contact with anyone who did or said anything other than to condemn the awful fake human you were married to. He’s a monster.
Agreed. The only person we have in common anymore is our young adult son and he’s coming to terms with who his dad really is. He said “I don’t want to lose dad but it seems like dad was never real.” For doing that to my son alone I could never forgive him.
You know, reading some of the comments made me remember something. When I went through my divorce, I found out a ton of people I knew were cheaters. That’s one reason why so many people will defend the cheater and tell you to get over it. Because they’re cheating and want everyone to forgive them for it, should it come out. Cheaters preemptively defend themselves this way. It’s part of their rationalization process for what they are doing to their spouses.
I even had a hell of a time meeting new friends because I’d tell women what I went through (the cliff notes) and they’d tell me about how they could relate because they were cheating on their husbands! It happened multiple times! Like Bitch, I am not like you, you are like my ex husband! I stopped socializing for a couple of years over it. It was exhausting finding out that everybody was a piece of shit and proud of it.
KAtiePig, I agree that there’s a lot of chating we don’t know about, andthat’s why so many people defend cheaters and cheating.
When a married friend showed me her diamond necklace and told me the man who bought it was her AP, I was shocked and pulled back from our friendship.
Later, she asked me to take a proprietary membership list from one of my firm’s clients and give it to her to use in her job. I refused, and told my company president what she’d asked me to do. Zero ethics, zero boundaries. She might have been able to buy that info legally, and had she asked, the client might even have given it to her.
We continued to run into each other at professional events, and I never spoke to her. I couldn’t even bring myself to say hello.
I think a lot of people are pieces of shit. If they’re not cheaters themselves, they’ll still enable abusers. I’ve survived several abusive groups (family, relationships, a cult) and have been shocked at how consistently people will defend perpetrators.
I’ve found it’s the rule. It’s been a little demoralizing and forced me to seriously clean house.
I think you’re absolutely right, Katie. I don’t know for a fact that those people who defended or excused the fuckwit were cheaters themselves, but it wouldn’t at all surprise me.
Katie Pig, I need to take a moment to tell you at group level how much I appreciate your posts.
❤️
Thank you! I appreciate that!
Ditto, I always read your comments. I really appreciate your insights.
Agree! Always love to read a post from Katie! 🙌🏽
Thanks!
Thank you Chump Lady and all! Really appreciate it and spot on as always…! I agree I need to be stronger on my boundaries with friends and family and that’s something I’ll work on. If they don’t accept it, off to Switzerland territory they go.
What also really resonated with me was compassion fatigue and people not seeing it as ‘abuse’. I try to limit my rants about my ex but she manages to consistently find new ways to cause pain (“can you PLS try to make sure the iPads are charged when you send them back? This happened MULTIPLE times now” – we don’t use tablets at my house so they discharge in the packpack) and sometimes I need to rant about it. But the real issue I find is that people who have not been served this shit-can fail to see this as emotional abuse. I vomitted daily for nearly a year (yay weight loss). And don’t worry I’m fine-ish now and again therapists were a waste of time for me (I just keep re-reading ‘leave a cheater gain a life’).
To answer some of the questions; I don’t know why my father wanted to meet her other than ‘wanting to talk’ with I assume a view to have a ‘normalised relationship’ with my ex wife and mother of my children (but for what purpose?). My mother was aware of this attempt but has always let dad do the ‘tougher’ things. Mind you mom is IMO excessively nice to her on calls eg when kids are with my family and want to call the ex. Clearly I don’t want her to be cruel to her in front of kids but why do you care about how her life is going / what she’s up to etc Mom?
My parents are happily married (30+ years) and I’m the only one in my extended family who got divorced. I imagine that has some bearing also as I’m now the black sheep.
Ex wife got a lump sum pay out so not ‘still’ paying for her house but stings regardless, especially as I’m now struggling financially particularly as I’m trying to keep the kids’ life as stable as possible with minimal further changes.
I consider myself to be a ‘shovel-type’ parent also and equally when friends got betrayed (though not to the same extent as no marriage or kids involved), the cheating partner was instantly dead to me and perhaps naiively I was hoping it’d be the same in my case (why are they all still friends with her on social media? I deleted her on day 1 everywhere and no I don’t want you to tell me what she’s posting thank you very much).
Thomas – I agree with CL that your father may have only wanted to normalize a relationship with your ex because of the grandchildren. He may be frightened that your XFW will turn the children against you, against him, against your mom. Try reassuring your dad that you will guarantee a relationship with his grandchildren regardless of anything XFW says to the kids. Also let him know that most probably any fawning or kowtowing to her to make her like/respect him and your mom is unlikely to change her attitudes and behavior. She would probably just get off on it and it would not influence her behavior at all. Do they know the BIFF and grey rock techniques?
You sound like you are doing a great job with your kids and yourself. Remember to #kthxbye anyone who wants to challenge your feelings and decisions.
To be honest, I felt every. single. thing. you said in your original post — the hurt, the injustice, the gob-smacking cluelessness of other people. I just really wish you loads of healing from this shitshow.
It’s utterly unfair that you are the “black sheep” because you were on the receiving end of abuse. Perhaps your family believes that it’s perfectly fine to take the abuse in order to remain married? That’s not a healthy attitude. I’m sorry you’re going through this.
The iPad thing is nuts. Read up on BIFF — brief information friendly and firm. That doesn’t require a reply.
BIFF is the work of Bill Eddy….look for his books and podcast appearances….also Jefferson Fisher….excellent communication teachers!
Thank you Tracy – will do!
Yes, Bill Eddy’s BIFF method saved my bacon during closeout. Dialing down the drama and focusing on core issues makes such a difference.
Yes, you’re acing it, as far as I’m concerned. You were reasonable during the divorce and are properly parenting the kids.
But this: Your pain is upsetting.
I’ve been divorced for awhile now and STILL have people at the outskirts of my life who don’t know how to deal with me as a single, divorced person. They think I have divorce cooties or so idolize marriage that a divorced person doesn’t fit with their worldview (these are religious people).
So when I’m around people like that, I wear my mask and get through it. I don’t let them close to me. I don’t entertain the talk about the holidays, so why can’t Elsie be reasonable and get along with her ex? I literally walk away from conversations like that.
My attorney had a saying, “Only a fool is friends with the person who burned down their house.” My ex had significant mental health issues along with the rest. He is NOT a safe person. The best, healthy thing for me to do is to go on in life, happily living no contact. I did not have custody issues, thankfully.
And I don’t let the naysayers attach themselves to me. I just don’t.
Tracy’s advice is here is so golden. As are the comments below. The world is changing and is ready for this way of approaching divorce. A facade is not what your children need or the people who care about you need, or the world need. This I think is maybe the most important advice for you “I know you want your friends and family to be fully on your side, and champion your virtue against her suckitude, but people are incredibly disappointing this way. The kindest interpretation I have is that they may have compassion fatigue. That’s your cue to take venting about your ex to this community, or a therapist, or a fellow chump friend who gets it.” Do not complain about her to sadly, your family if they are not understanding, and your “friends”. I made a FIRM we don’t talk about it rule and I had to make a lot of new friends, the real ones are still by my side. Crushing, but you need to take care of yourself and your kids. And therapy as someone suggested. Although this group is great great help. Hearing other stories makes it less lonely and keeps your mind from wandering to things like “what did I do” or so on.
I have a stock answer for whenever people tell me what I “should” be doing “cool, well you can do that, but I’m me and I’m going to do my thing instead”. It usually shuts them down, including my mother who thinks I’m an extension of her and should think & do as she does. Ride or Die loyalty is hard to find these days and most people would rather you be all hakuna matata than hold boundaries.
My stock answer is “Don’t should on me.”
That usually shuts them up.
Yes, that works. Or I say, “Thanks for your input. Hey, what’s new with you?” If they persist, I end the call or walk away with some neutral thought.
love this one. Very close to the southern “bless your heart”.
LOL. That’s hilarious. I’m not a southerner but live in a “kinda” southern state.
Low contact Grey rock with #1 cheater due to kids. Zero contact with#2 cheater. Daughter of#1 wants “family cruise 35 years post D day when she was born. Ow still married to cheater she poached. No can do!
That’s a good way to end up one of those mysterious Bermuda Triangle disappearances. Or wherever that cruise is cruising. Man overboard!
Yeah no!
Good for you refusing to do that.
Not hard to do. Sad for my kids who have to live the ongoing forever wall between dad and me. But I can’t be friends
Yes I’m with you there.
My oldest son is completely on board with it though- he’s seen who his father is.
I limit talking about this subject to safe and trustworthy people only. There are a number of them so no one person gets burned out. And of course this includes the awesome therapist who has been on board since 2006, years before the truth of who he is came to light. Thank God for her. (That money was not wasted, by the way. She became the rock of truth to counter his lies and attempts to rewrite history, which is priceless.)
Anyone who dismisses my pain or experience gets dismissed from my life.
There are billions of people on the planet. One of the oddly-wrapped gifts of betrayal is that it helps you discern who among them you should stay away from.
Absolutely a life principle. You can choose who to push to the outskirts of your life, and then nourish the good ones that deserve to be close to you.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCqAFoPPQTb/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
If people respected the damage done and the pain and suffering caused by infidelity, the perpetrators would be in prison.
“Thomas: Dad, I have just navigated the biggest trauma of my life. I need your encouragement and support. Because I really value our relationship, I won’t be discussing my ex with you — and I’d appreciate the same.”
This is the perfect response!
Hi Spinach….I sent an email through Tracy to connect….FYI
❤️
Thomas – Be prepared for family to be angry at you for saying “I’m not discussing my ex.” I don’t talk about the ex. I don’t know about his life, yet my family members keep asking me questions, act outraged that I don’t have anything to do with him, and refuse to let it go. Despite my being happily divorced from the cheating ex for over a year my extended family (mom, her siblings, etc) still ask me when/if I’m getting back with the cheater and they berate me for not hanging out with him as if we’re still friends. I only text my ex about our child yet the family expects me to keep acting as if we’re still the childhood sweethearts we were. That’s what THEY are used to, and I’ve unfortunately heard many iterations of my older relatives being upset that THEY were wrong about my ex, how THEY can’t really be wrong for liking him, and how I must be wrong for not having anything to do with him (and being happy about it!).
It’s unfortunate, but I’ve had to become more distanced from many relatives (including my mother) who prefer to ignore all the bad things that happen and blame me for not “saving” my ex from himself.
Yes, that’s definitely part of it. They don’t want to face the reality that the FW fooled them, so it has to be you who is in the wrong. The tell themselves they couldn’t possibly have misjudged FW to that extent, so obviously you must be to blame and you should just get over it.
Fuck a whole bunch of that.
Thomas- tell everyone who dares to demand you all get along that THEY need to move on and let go of the illusion they have of her being a good and worthy person- she is not and you do not have to speak to her ever again if you wish.
The bloody nerve of those people!
The father of my children was banned from my life many years ago- I have not spoken to him and never will again for any reason.
I don’t deal with abusers and refuse to pretend everything is ok to make others feel comfortable.
They didn’t suffer what he did to me and if they disagree with my stance they can all kiss my arse.
Fuck her- you owe her and her apologists absolutely nothing.
Exactly “Why are YOU still dwelling on this, dad? I am moving forward.”
Hi Thomas,
I agree with you!
My FW decided to replace the old wife appliance with a shiny gold digger. She even has a dog so he left the family dog as well. And society accepts that. I was the primary wage earner, she is living large on my hard work.
Why can’t I decide the new relationship I want is that he doesn’t exist? Pure gray rock. My children are all in their 20’s, and FW wants them to be happy for him. We have a daughter in graduate school and we supplement her meager salary by $1000/ mos. He wants her to be happy that he is helping her be independent by no longer funding her. And he expresses his pain towards the children that they aren’t happy he went to the World Series—with a woman he only met a year ago—after promising the kids for years he would take them whenever favorite team made playoffs or WS.
Stand firm. Why should we befriend our embezzlers? Marriage is the only contract you can break without consequences.
why waste time with liars?
I expect better from my friends. Glad you didn’t get an STD!
I just wanted to thank you all for your insightful and kind responses. Apologies for not responding to individual messages but I really, really appreciate it – your wishes and suggestions made my day. THANK YOU!
My parents were/are my biggest fans. They struggled with this idea, and they saw the ex at sports and other school-related events so it was an ongoing issue. They said “he didn’t do anything to us”.
My response, “but he did a lot to me and to your grandchildren.” My mom got it when I said, “well if he beat me up, would you say it was ok because he didn’t beat you up?
I encouraged them to be civil if they felt the need but there was a cost to being friendly and the cost was me feeling bad. Everyone is different, some parents are just assholes but some have no idea how to navigate a situation where they don’t have all the facts and they are losing people they cared about in the past.
None of this is easy, Thomas. Keep coming back for a variety of perspectives from the “been there, done that” trenches.
I’m amazed you were able to forgive that cruel statement. I was told the same and have never forgiven it. Mind you, the person who said it is not sorry and has never understood that supporting the FW instead of me is disloyal and hurtful. If he had ever seen the light and sincerely apologized I could have gotten past it.
In their defense, it took me a long time to realize exactly what kind of person I was dealing with and I had a lot more evidence than they did. It’s hard to wrap your mind around the fact that FWs walk among us and we don’t always recognize them.
Other people do not feel our pain acutely as we do, no matter how empathetic they are. That’s just the way it is. You are living it, completely immersed in four demensions, full color, surrond sound with super-slowmo replay highligts, 24/7 on-demand, all channels, every platform. To the next closest person it’s a black and white still photograph in comparison. I wanted people to understand how hurt I was, but they couldn’t. I wanted them to hate her like I hated her, but they can’t because they aren’t me. Okay maybe my sister. She really fucking hated that bitch when she found out.
Maybe it’s different for men. Heck, it’s probably different for different people regardless. In my experience as a dude, it is socially acceptible to become a bit of a mess when you find find out your wife is a whore. It’s even kind of expected. But there is an expiration date on that shit. The sad cuckold routine gets old sooner than we are ready to drop it. Those people absolutely do want you to get over it for THEM. That doesn’t mean it’s right or fair, but everyone has a limited endurance for your grief. It’s exhausting. There is a point where things go from “he’s going through a very difficult time” to “he’s a miserable person.”
The whole “we grew apart and look forward to coparenting our children and remain friends and want what’s best for eachother thanks for respecting our privacy, yada yada” is bullshit. It’s shallow, Hollywood marriage bullshit but it’s related to what I’m talking about. No matter how fucked up this situation is now, you are a grown up with responibilities and other relationships and things you want to do with your life that you can’t afford to let this one thing define all of those other things. Like it or not, success or failure is impacted significantly by how people perceive us. We are judged. Especially on how we handle adversity. Men who exhibit extreme negative emotions because women who used to want to fuck them don’t want to fuck them anymore are judged to be weak. It sucks.
Your dad is on some bullshit. Parents tend to do stuff like that in these situations. I don’t know why. Mine did, at first. Maybe he thinks you’ll be happier if you have less hate. You would be. We all would be. But it’s a very unsophisticated idea of how we get to that point (coffee and small talk). Maybe he has his own agenda related to access to his grandchildren. In any event, he’s being manipulated by her and it’s perfectly appropriate to tell him that. She is using him to get to you. Every interaction she is having with him is calculated to leverage him to put pressure on you to do what she wants. It’s not about friendship or what’s best for the family. It’s about pressure. Be firm. If he’s talking to her and telling you what she said, then he’s also telling her about you. That’s not acceptable.
The number of divorced people who truly remain friends years later is minuscule. Everyone I know who had kids in common tolerated the ex and then went their own way once the kids were grown.
Thomas, you need to make it clear to them that you will not discuss your ex at all, that it’s not good for your mental health to even think about her, much less talk about her. Sit them down to tell them and make sure to state that it is non-negotiable. Tell them you will leave (or hang up the phone if it’s by phone) if they bring the subject up again. Then make good on your word if they try it again.
That’s how I got people to stop trying to convince me to take FW back, that he really wasn’t so bad, blah blah blah. I actually didn’t speak to my mother for almost a year because she refused to stop. But I stuck to my guns and she finally relented. Do what you have to do for your mental well-being. Anybody who is knowingly doing something which is a threat to that should either stop or get the hell out of your life.
Yeah, I’m gonna be honest, I was too mad to read the details. Fuck that shit! Tell those do gooders to make friends with the people who abused their kids, embezzled their pension to spend it on yachts and cocaine, who bullied them and made them feel like they were nothing with all the accompanying impact of that. Tell them to make friends with the person who walked off and left their kids to go without, so they could go on fancy holidays and drive cars paid for by their avoidance of financially supporting the kids they brought into the world. Tell them to make friends with the person who went into a joint contract with, who then decided they wanted to renege on said contract without telling their partner and left that partner to pick up the pieces and sort all the mess out.
Like I said, fuck that shit. And as Chump Lady says, I didn’t reverse over you!
Damn, Tracy. You knocked it out of the park again. Twice at least in this post for me. As I read further into your response to Thomas, I almost spit out my bite of lunch when I read your snark:
Destroying your family for fucking the boss! Not so bad! Who among us?!
Yeah. Funny, that. Thomas didn’t. You didn’t. I didn’t. A whole fucking host of chumps here didn’t. My FW XW did, though. And Thomas’s. And a lot more male chumps have suffered from this as well.
On the flip side, how many female chumps had their partner/spouse fuck a subordinate, or co-worker? A LOT, I’m sure. Many of us have suffered from one end or another of this particular, scummy cheating dynamic.
So that was the first one. The second thing CL said that really clicked in my head, was this:
Unless you’re a freak, no one severs deep commitments casually and quickly.
I’ve said it about the FW XW before (being a freak), but this just summed up things so well. And I would then say, that the ones that exit-affair their chumps are absolutely freaks. Blowing up their family for what they see as their own personal gain.
For me, that’s mainly what I need to remember about my FW XW. She’s a freak. She quickly adapted her tastes to her new sugar-daddy (only listen to Tom Petty! He’s a genius!). Tom Petty is great, but she was never so into him until she left me. But her new sugar-daddy was, so…🙄
I’m sure I’m not saying anything new. But it was great of Tracy to hit the nail on the head for me, and hopefully a lot of other chumps. It’s cementing my feelings even more about the FW XW. She’s a freak. And so is her AP/former boss. He blew apart a forty year marriage w/his first wife, to make my FW XW his trophy wife.
And we don’t need these freaks in our lives.
Have a good night, my fellow chumps. Peace to all of you.😊
Speaking as a chump, I don’t think you’re a freak if you sever a deep committment *quickly*. I didn’t do it casually, but as soon as I had the proof he was cheating, on a Saturday, I was in the solicitor’s office on Monday, and starting divorce proceedings. Does that make me a freak? I don’t think it does.
chumpnomore6,
We’re not talking about chumps who find out about their partners/spouses infidelity and take immediate action to get away from those treacherous bastards.
That’s an extremely healthy response, but one that few chumps (myself included) seem to be able to take, as most of us are in shock and probably some denial that the partner or spouse and relationship we had with them is dead and gone, and/or possibly never existed.
Kudos to you for having the wherewithal to move immediately against your cheater. You knew your boundaries and reacted accordingly.
I, and I think a lot of other chumps, took some time to figure out that I needed boundaries where I had never had them before (or at least never thought they’d be tested so terribly by an unfaithful partner/spouse).
No, this talk of freaks is reserved for those cheaters in relationships, who by cheating are severing the deep commitments of those relationships casually and quickly. My FW XW, by going the extra step of doing the cheating also as a means to exit the marriage, is just a more extreme freak.
Any chump is entitled to act as you did to sever connections with their cheater quickly and fully, once they realize they are being fucked around on or with. It’s just that people like you are ahead of the curve, already knowing your worth, having never lost sight of it, and unwilling to accept less.
I think most of us chumps lost sight of our worth in the relationship, and so have a lot more work to do to rediscover it.
I thought this was implied/understood, but I hope this makes things clearer as to where I’m coming from, and I think Tracy is too.
The chump is not a freak. It’s the fucking cheaters willing to risk the relationship or end it in selfish pursuit of what they see as greener pastures that are the freaks. They’re immature and selfish, and need to be removed from our grown-ass lives as soon as we are able to.
Take your new relationship very slowly. What are the odds that a person you are dating 6 months after finalizing a divorce is a LIFE partner? Have fun but remember that it will take you a year or two to know the new person–and that by dating so soon, you’ve cut short the time for fully healing.
I’m taking CL’s advice very literally. Stop talking to family, friends or colleagues about the divorce or your ex. If you are still in so much pain or post-trauma suffering that you are still venting to others, you may have cut short your recovery. It’s like having an injury that you need to rehab. If you do the full course of rehab, you usually have a better outcome. Once you stop talking about her or the divorce, you are in a position to say “This subject is off limits for good. Let’s talk about something else.” And if someone tells you (in person, on the phone or by text) that they are having social time or interaction with your ex, set that same boundary: “You can have a relationship with her if you choose. Then I’ll decide wheher to continue a relationship with you.”
This sorta reminds me in some roundabout way of what Hannah Gadsby was referring to in Nanette when the audience goes to see a comedian- there is a big build up of tension and then the inevitable punch line and everyone can all have a jolly good laugh and think thank christ that horrible thing wasn’t so serious after all. Ill have to watch it again but I vaguely recall she decided to stop giving the people what they wanted, and they could just wallow in their own horrible unease – yeah fuck em, let them wallow in it, not your problem.