How Did You Survive New Discoveries of Cheating?
She keeps making new discoveries of her ex’s cheating as she compiles documentation for her lawyer. But the process is emotionally exhausting. Is this survivable?
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Hi Chump Lady,
I am so glad I found you. And I am astounded by how closely my story (which seems so crazy to me) tracks with yours and the other people’s on your site.
- Wants to both be married to me AND keep the hookers/girlfriends? Check.
- Is so, so sad, we should all feel sorry for him? Check. (He sent me a selfie of his tear-stained face to me to prove it.)
- Tells me and our kids that he’s “not a monster”? Check.
Anyway, my question.
Married for 34 years, 2 grown children.
Found out he has had a double life for at least the last 5 years (that he admits to).
With at least two strippers (that he admits to) on whom he has been lavishing money. I chose an attorney and filed for divorce within the week.
I don’t want to “untangle the skein,” though I think it’s natural to go there. Because your mind keeps trying to figure out how he could possibly have done something this stupid. (He thinks the hookers love him.) And this hurtful. (He seems to have zero clue why I’d file for divorce and why our kids don’t want to see him). And also how, how, how could I have not seen it?
How do people handle the mental gymnastics of compiling evidence for your attorney?
I have to look at statements from the secret account, but how do I not get overwhelmed by what I’m finding? Like on my last birthday, he ran out right before the stores closed and got me a pair of slippers, but that same day, he Zelled one of the hookers $3,000. It’s emotionally exhausting.
Oh! Two pieces of advice people gave me that I have found very helpful, in case they’d be helpful to someone else.
From an attorney/friend: “Process your emotions later; gather every bit of information you can NOW.”
and
From a woman who was in a situation similar to mine: “Know that you will not get justice; get a good attorney, get a good therapist, get all the money you can, and get out as quickly as you can.”
I’m trying, but it’s hard. Because, in addition to everything else, I am in limbo, unable to move into a new life until the divorce goes through and I know what my financial situation will be.
Any tips?
This sucks.
Chumplet
***
Dear Chumplet,
Just keep going. You can’t be in limbo forever. Freedom from a FW is attainable. You WILL get divorced. It’s just going to hurt like a mofo for a while.
Thirty-four years is a long time to invest in a relationship. If he had merely died, it would be convulsively painful. But you’re dealing with a different kind of death — the loss of 34-years of identity. Who you thought you were, who he was, and what kind of reality you were living.
Every discovery is another loss.
You invested in a lie that you were safe and loved. So, every new revolting detail feels unsafe. It underscores exactly how unloved you were. How utterly devalued and vulnerable. I can say it’s nothing personal, his fuckupedness has nothing to do with you. But it still hurts. Because it IS personal. He didn’t devalue the toaster — he rejected YOU. Thirty-four years of your life is a gift. He shat on that gift.
We’ll reframe it in a sec (really, he would fuck around on that toaster), but let’s untangle his skein together first.
Because your mind keeps trying to figure out how he could possibly have done something this stupid. (He thinks the hookers love him.)
How could he do it? Entitlement.
His behavior says buying sex workers doesn’t tweak his conscience in the least. Women are here to serve him, either by the hour, or as spousal appliances. It takes an incredible amount of chutzpah to have your hooker habit discovered and still feel entitled to your marriage. I call this delusion “The Almighty Right to Jizz.” Hey, I’m just using these women! But you’re the one I come home to. Can I help it if they fall in love with me?
Everyone should be grateful for his dick. Yeah, it’s not just stupid, it’s deeply misogynistic. I really think you should free him to follow his stripper love. Which may culminate with him passed out in an alley minus his wallet. #HallmarkEnding
He seems to have zero clue why I’d file for divorce and why our kids don’t want to see him.
He has zero clue why you’d question his entitlement. He’s more deserving than all of you. What is this peasant uprising?
And also how, how, how could I have not seen it?
Because you’re not a sociopath. You BOND. You’re human. Of course you trusted your husband. No one imagines a giant wall of pain lurks behind their marriage. You’re there showing up doing the daily logistics. Working a job, raising kids, doing laundry. Because you’re not delusional with the Almighty Right to Jizz, you don’t imagine yourself an international man of mystery with a harem. Ooh, must schedule today’s spank session with Mandy.
You don’t think like that because you’re not a duplicitous freak.
The question isn’t why didn’t you see it, but why did HE front a fake commitment to you?
I have to look at statements from the secret account, but how do I not get overwhelmed by what I’m finding?
Give it to your attorney and let them decide what to use. You know enough to know you’re divorcing. You don’t need every particular.
It IS going to feel overwhelming because this is traumatic. Feel it. And remember the feelings are FINITE.
Like on my last birthday, he ran out right before the stores closed and got me a pair of slippers, but that same day, he Zelled one of the hookers $3,000.
Ask for that $3K back in the divorce as theft of marital assets. I might burn the slippers. I’m sure CN will have some creative ideas. But I understand your pain. As chumps, we often make do on the gift front. It’s okay to be underwhelmed, because in the big picture, we know we are loved. Until we find out, nope, not only were we unloved, but the FW deemed someone else more deserving. It’s not that he was incapable of generosity. He was incapable of it for YOU.
Prostitutes are by definition transactional. So, he’s met his match on the gift giving. Her job is to part him from his money and in exchange he gets what? A fleeting orgasm? A fantasy that he’s “loved”? Loser.
He lost your devotion. He lost a shared domestic life with someone who gave deeply and LOVED. Someone who shows up. That’s a gift beyond measure and he was completely unworthy. It stops hurting when you realize, he was never your equal. You’re still a prize and he is still a fraud.
You win.
Chumplet, Please listen to the advice of your attorney, your friend, ChumpLady and the Chump Nation. As a chump, I found it very hard. It all started for me by finding a stray receipt that I had no clue about, then found out that he uploaded his homemade porn with Schmoopie to my son’s shared photo account (yep, my poo son had to see it as well and promptly informed me). I made the mistake of confronting a FW and then doing counseling for 60 days in combination with some pick me dancing. Those were 60 days of hell where I found out, I was to blame for his cheating. I could not accept it, so I lawyered up and became a PI. I gathered all I could for the forensic accountant (hey, he was spending money like cray on Schmoopie as well as hookers and massage parlor sex workers), Luckily, he was not tech savvy and I found a lot!!! My forensic accountant found out more!! The FW decided to fight and put me through almost two years of HELL! I filed for adultery (live in a fault state and I wanted to make sure he was properly labeled as a cheater). Finally the judge ordered a a settlement conference with a retired judge (the guy was actually quite awesome). We showed him the evidence. He really didn’t care about the actual cheating but he sure cared about the spending. I got a good settlement and FW has to give me cash for the money he spent on hooker and Schmoopie (it upset him greatly because he thought he was entitled to spend HIS money on whatever he wanted). Thanks to all that F%#& Wittery, I was able to get a nice house that I paid off. Life is great on the other side but it will be a misery as you get through the process.
The moral of the story is to take a deep breath and just focus on getting the best settlement you can, don’t occupy your head space with trying to figure out a FW. This is finite (as ChumpLady says). You can collapse when you reach the goal.
For me, life is now peaceful. My son is still in the Navy and will be 30 this year. He does not speak to his father but that is his choice and I respect that. I was able to retire a couple of months ago and can now engage in things that I always wanted to do like travel. I have a small circle of friends and a steady fellow chump man in my life. Itis nice when the biggest drama is that your dishwasher gave up on working!
You will get there, give yourself grace, collect the evidence and get your divorce and you peace.
Thank you so much! Yes, I got a forensic accountant, too, and had the exact same thought: it’s expensive, but look what he’s spending money on.
He thinks hookers love him!? He is stupid.
Deeply stupid.
But I think it makes sense in a twisted way. And it’s illustrative of how much he sucks.
Paying a sex worker is love to him – a transactional relationship is what he expects and a transactional relationship was the only thing he ever offered.
And in fact, if this FW is anything like mine, he has contempt for the chump because they willingly provided spousal services for no money. At least a sex worker demands something of value for their services (money).
OMG it sounds like my ex-FW! He thought his employees loved him, that they were “a family”. I said “Stop paying them and see which ones still show up.” Dr. Delusional. OMG.
I could have signed this letter. The only difference is mine chose online-hookups for sex, while also maintaining a full on affair. He fought so hard on the divorce (“how could you rip the family apart like this?”) that I stopped tracking attorney and accountant fees after the first 80 grand.
My discovery came in 2 big waves. So I get how crushed you feel. If you l live in a no fault divorce state, my advice would be to stop looking for more evidence, and trust that he sucks. All it will do is make you sick, confirm what you already know, and rip you apart all over again.
My separation was a year. Divorce took two years. I’m almost two years fully free, and I no longer dwell on the horrible feelings of the actual cheating and affairs. Five years out from the first D-day, I just look back at our 27 year marriage and think of what a colossal loss it was. The pain does lessen with time.
1dayatatime…you and me.. As my comment above says, I was too busy not to trust. I didn’t have time to put tractor beams and GPSs on reproductive organs. It just dawned on me how full of important things my life was that I did not have the energy to investigate the smell of gas to know it could explode on me. But that’s OK because my life is busy now, happily in retirement after 2 years post horror show. I’m too busy for another man because I don’t have the energy to trust one again after 2 busts. I’m so thrilled I’m this old and I don’t care either. Thank you for telling us all that there is a beautiful life after terror. I have it and so do you.
Yes, I don’t think I will be looking for another man either. I guess never say never, but …. And I too am perfectly fine with my age (60). FW never was and I’d tell him, “You can’t stop getting older. It’s going to happen. And it’s better than the alternative.” He never got it. Looking back, the suddenly talking about getting plastic surgery and the buying of skincare products were major red flags.
1dayatatime My xHC started shaving his body and putting on awful cologne that I told him I disliked. I told him he gave me a rash from the stubble. I didn’t even go into the cheating world in my mind, I was that naive and my husband seemed to still go to church, go to work and continued to go store to store after work shopping as he always did. I sure didnt guess he was no longer shopping for car parts.
If I had put all the signs together I would have seen clearly. I was 9 years older but looked younger than he did and more active. But that aging and losing their potency is most likely a horrible fear that is medicated by younger, more active woman who never talk about aging.
The body shaving! Mine too.A red flag I missed. And here I thought he was manscaping to make his little pecker look bigger!
I still don’t know what this even means in the world. I’d actually never heard of a man body shaving except very hairy men who waxed. There’s still alot I dont know
And I probably don’t need to know
This horrid period will have an endpoint. I had my suspicions with some data points and uncovered a big one about a month before he kicked off the divorce. We had been separated for over a year long-distance, and he was busy “finding” himself while I kept what was left of our lives here going.
More came out during the divorce, partly because his attorney blabbed to mine. It got to the point that I told my attorney to log what was said in case we went to trial and not tell me, but I preferred to get it done without that. “No fault” just means you don’t have to prove the fault. You can still obtain a favorable settlement and move forward on your own terms.
And that’s what happened. We settled. His attorney knew that a trial would be lopsided because they had zero on me (a state where adultery still counts), and he pushed to settle from his side. And we got it. I was OK with the terms, and a trial would have been uncertain and expensive. The agony would have dragged out longer. Some judges shift settlement in cases of adultery, and some don’t.
No regrets. My ex made closeout as crazy as the divorce, but it didn’t bother me near as much. The bedrock was that I was divorced, and the law was on my side.
Thank you! It helps so much to know that there is an endpoint, that this stage is finite.
When I was in the depths of PI mode it was God awful to discover the real reasons why he was late to children’s activities, crappy gifts I got last Christmas, so on.
I’m unfortunately in a community property no fault state so evidence of 100 hookers wasn’t going to matter. I hate no fault divorce.
FW stole by my estimation a 7 figure sum from us. Well meaning friends wanted every dollar tracked down! Forensic accountants are very expensive and so are divorce attorneys. I saw enough to know he stole and stole and stole. Continued to steal during separation!
I used the threat of the forensic accountant to get more than 50% and got out ASAP. I never saw every piece of evidence nor even all of the secret accounts. As a Chump I desperately wanted to, but in reality I didn’t need to.
Yes! My kids are adults, and one of them was present when the truth came out. Ugh.He told her, “I knew that I was risking you and your sibling never talking to me again ….” My daughter often comes back to that and says, “But he did it anyway.” 🙁
I am in a state where you can go for fault, and my idiot also stole in the 7 figures and I am sure he is also still stealing, so the plan is to go after him. Wish me luck.
I’d like to begin by again recommending a great book, Dangerous Instincts, by Mary Ellen O’Toole, a veteran FBI profiler who was a colleague of my private investigator, who himself was an FBI Special Agent for thirty years. They not low level slouches; they both worked the Unabomber case and she worked many high-profile serial killer cases.
People pride themselves on their powers of perception….the ability to read people…and typically greatly overestimate it. This mindset actually makes us more vulnerable, reinforcing blind spots. We think dangerous people always give themselves away with little clues, that red flags are always in full view and that we missed something.
This is not the case. It was a great relief to hear Mary Ellen say that there are people who are so skilled at deception that they get past the highly trained expert radar of even veteran FBI profilers.
I have learned since my own DDay that cheaters and side pieces are often those types of highly skilled liars, about many things and usually in every area of their lives.
Sometimes we don’t see because of blind spots. Sometimes we spackle and deny and disregard. Sometimes we see and we respond by getting in there and trying to fix and change.
And, as Mary Ellen points out with her extremely credible experience, sometimes the danger signs are not always in full view. Sometimes they are carefully hidden in a trunk in the attic.
Remember, Ted Bundy had a girlfriend with a young daughter, and a co-worker, who never experienced anything that would tip them off about his homicidal behavior. Bernie Madoff deceived the so-called friends he was ripping off…for decades.
It’s the way of the chump to self-examine and feel we failed somehow, failed to detect, failed failed failed. Basically, that we are in control of another.
We are not.
The simple truth is that we had the emotional shit beaten out of us and did not see it until we saw it because of the very charming masks they wear. Their objective is to keep us controlled and confused and doubting ourselves, keeping us just where they want us. This is NO FAILURE on our part. And it hurts like no other pain I have ever experienced. Every new discovery rips off the scar tissue and is salt and rubbing alcohol on the wound.
Healing is ongoing, and so are my first aid efforts.
“The shame must change sides.”
– Gisele Pelicot
“Their objective is to keep us controlled and confused and doubting ourselves, keeping us just where they want us. ”
Hindsight is always going to be 20/20.
While I was in the relationship and for quite some time after, he had me exactly where he wanted me. I was, as you say, controlled and confused and doubting myself. Constantly.
I got therapy. I got out. And while the timeline is slow as molasses, the more I heal, the less he can control me.
What is very interesting to me is how few tricks he has up his sleeve. He has a few tried and true methods of manipulating and controllng and now that I am healing, they simply don’t work. This is where the hindsight is 20/20 comes in, because I see right through every attempt immediately.
Guilt trips? Zero effect on me. I finally got to a place where I no longer question if his cheating was my fault. It wasn’t. I know it. And he can cry his sad sausage song until his voice is gone and it just won’t move me.
I am still afraid of him, but the fear just sort of sits inside me these days. It informed my choice to change locks, get cameras etc. But it no longer makes me dance to his beat. I lived for decades in terror of his mood swings and danced to try to avoid a bad mood at all costs. It was exhasuting and frankly, pointless because he’d always find something to be an ass about, no matter how hard I trued to avoid it. Now? I think of him as someone that is potentially dangerous, so I am careful with my safety. I don’t poke the bear. I avoid him at all costs. But he can’t make me do something I don’t want to do by being volatile.
And he just keeps trying the same old tricks, and he must be dumbfounded at how they no longer work. I don’t think I can overstate how scared I was and how controlled I was. But I got out, and yes, the hard part IS finite. It felt so hopeless for me early on. But I am on my way to completely free, and am in such a better place now. It sucks but as they say “if you are going through helll, keep going”.
The simple truth is that we had the emotional shit beaten out of us and did not see it until we saw it because of the very charming masks they wear. Their objective is to keep us controlled and confused and doubting ourselves, keeping us just where they want us. This is NO FAILURE on our part. And it hurts like no other pain I have ever experienced. Every new discovery rips off the scar tissue and is salt and rubbing alcohol on the wound.
So, so true. There are still people on the outskirts of my life who believe that his charming mask was who he was. One made a comment to me on Sunday about how I need to learn to speak well of people, and I know that it was in relation to my ex because of who it was and the context. Well, there are a lot of people that we don’t have to speak well of, ever.
I am not a mean-spirited person, nor am I an angry one. And my ex took advantage of that, ensuring I was shattered when he finally left.
That made my divorce difficult, but that’s why I hired the attorney I did. He was super nice to me in the office, really like a big brother in many ways. But he could get so mad about my situation that he’d yell, swear, and pound on the conference room table. At first it scared me, but then I got that he was passionate about getting my divorce settled. I needed his power and anger.
And Gisèle Pelicot. What a brave, brave woman.
“One made a comment to me on Sunday about how I need to learn to speak well of people,”
No, you need to learn a reliable and perfect left hook. lol.
Obviously, I am not suggesting you punch someone in the face… at church no less! And that isn’t your vibe anyway. But ooof…the outsiders that don’t know what they are talking about are just, eeeeesh. Should you also speak well of Ted Bundy? He wore a very charming mask too.
I agree. The woman who said that to me is a bit of wreck, frankly. I had an interesting conversation with one of her daughter-in-laws several weeks ago where the gal commented on how her in-laws don’t live in reality and don’t get boundaries at all.
My ex was truly what our adult children have called a dumpster fire, nothing to salvage there and very much not the type you want any long-term contact with. Diagnosed as very disordered in his thinking, and potentially dangerous to me. Just NO!
Another great book is Predators by Anna Salter PhD. She also speaks about how people overestimate their ability to read people.
Also, notice and remember how cheater
and side pieces, who belong the species Con Artist, NEVER ruminate on how THEY failed.
Thanks for the recommendation.
My ex wasn’t sorry at all for how things crashed and burned. I struggled with it for a long time, and then one day it occurred to me that OF COURSE he didn’t get it. And hooray! I’m not at all that way. Move on, Elsie.
Thanks, VH, I so needed to hear this today.
Thank you for the book recommendation. And it makes me feel better to know that people often don’t recognize lies. I happened to be reading Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell which starts off with an exploration of why we are so bad at recognizing deception. Still, I need to be reminded of this every once in a while as I go through this.
My EX turned red whenever she was embarrassed or caught in a mistake or awkward social situation. She also appeared to be very honest in her dealings with me and others. Once I said to her that I would always know if she was lying because of this. She gave me a funny smile and her body language told me something was up. It turns out she was actively cheating and scheming at that moment. You just never know…
FW and I were goofing around, and he said he knew I was ‘lying’ (kidding) about something because I’m a terrible liar. I said I would know if he was lying. His expression went completely deadpan, and he said, “I’m a VERY good liar.” It creeped me out. I buried it. Less than a year later, on DDay, he looked me in the eyes and said, “I told you I was a good liar.”
Who does that?!
At the same time, he HATES being embarrassed, gets second and third-hand embarrassment when people do something cringey in a TV show or movie. He gets uncomfortable and antsy. But he could lie for the Olympics.
I have to have minimal contact with Traitor Ex because of a child and a co-owned business (which I am working my way out of).
A year and a half after the divorce was final, I found out that he and the primary side piece opened their very own illicit Asian massage parlor.
It’s something I am very glad I found out about because it has become the ultimate poker hand with which to win and shut them both the F up and shut them both the F down.
I’d call that the real happy ending.
hahaha!
Ach! I am wondering if my FW is doing the same thing with one of the hookers. Saw some evidence that seems to show they are doing something.
I was one of the lucky ones, he left me for the town whore. She was his direct report and he had his dick tangled in the work auger. That didn’t work out well for him, but that didn’t make it much easier for me. I did get a little tingle of delight when I read in the paper he got busted, didn’t last long. I still had to drag myself out of the pit.
All I know is he told me he had been “dating” for ten years, and never loved me. I never tried to find out the full story. It didn’t matter. Back then there was no CL, or any other resources that I knew of.
“he had his dick tangled in the work auger”
I love this for him.
Oh I did have financial proof of fraud, and it did help me a little; but there wasn’t much to get. It did get me out of paying off the debt he incurred. Luckily he sold off everything quickly, so I wasn’t pulled back in when he declared bankruptcy.
Chumplet,
Maybe your attorney’s office can do more on the discovery front during the divorce proceedings so you can detach from the bare minimum required.
The thing about FWs isn’t just the sheer entitlement… Their absolute lack of reciprocity in any given human interaction across their lifespan… The thing that really gets me is the hypervigilance that happens after you leave the FW in an attempt to stop further trauma. The deceptions run so much deeper than the initial discovery. Each is like another smack of reality to the face, and it’s hard to process when you’re in the thick of it. It’s more like smacking an old TV to get the picture to show clearly. It sucks, but it’s necessary to keep you from going back.
I escaped my FW about a decade ago, moved hundreds of miles away, started a new life, had no social media, and had my address sealed by the judge. Even with that much time, distance, and restraining orders, I still had the unfortunate experience of a bunny boiler popping up a few years ago.
The road to Meh is always paved with roadside carnival attractions and littered with trash.
You’ll get there, stay mighty!
I like to hear from the people here who have 10 years like me. I only found this amazing community and the work of Tracy Shorn recently though- but I try not to swell on that and I appreciate that we still need this. Maybe not all of us, but I do. It helps to hear we are not alone and not crazy.
It sucks, but it’s necessary to keep you from going back.
The road to Meh is always paved with roadside carnival attractions and littered with trash.
Nicely put.
I’m in a similar place in the process currently. I have twinges of anxiety thinking, “What if I leave money on the table because I miss something?” I tell myself that I know enough and that if there are squandered funds, they are minimal. And if they’re not minimal, I know enough.
Everyday the idea of regaining total agency over my life becomes more valuable than any money that he might have squandered or squirreled away.
When I became the investigator, I knew I had to because he dumped a ton of money on Schmoopie and hookers. The cash that I got back for his dissipation paid for my cute townhome in a gated community. That enabled me to retire and now I can live very comfortably.
If it had only been a matter of a few thousand, I would have written it off but when it amounted to bigger sums………….
“If it had only been a matter of a few thousand, I would have written it off but when it amounted to bigger sums………….”
Yeah, this is where it can vary for people a lot. In my case, adultery wouldn’t make a difference in my case, but if he spent a lot on the AP *that* would matter. I could get that money back.
He earns a lot more than me, so I, like many chumps, was in a position where the divorce was going to mean my future was a lot less secure. I wasn’t in a position where I could just completely look the other way re finances. But there was a real balance point, forensic accountants cost a lot, no one should be using one unless those stakes are high. And for some, yes, they are VERY high. Chumplet estimates that her FW may have spent up to 7 figures on hookers, that is absolutely worth a forensic accountant’s fee. For me, the added litigation nad the fee would have just depleted what money I had and any “wins” would have been minimal.
No settlement will ever bring a chump true justice. I am sure there are some examples that do leave the chump feeling pretty good, but keeping the vacation home may be great but it doesn’t erase the betrayal.
Every chump should aim for balancing a few things. Getting a settlement they can live with, and getting it as fast as possible–so they aren’t paying for years of litigation AND dealing with the FW for years longer than neccessary. And that balamcing act is going to look different for everyone. If 7 figures are at stake, more litigation may be well worth it. But if you would have to pour over piles of painful evidence, and fight for years to get 2k? Yeah..walk away.
Yes, I’ve heard attorneys have a saying: “Some money is too expensive to get.”
Yes, there’s a lot of money on the table for me. Plus, he’s a big earner and I am not, to put it mildly. Please wish me luck.
Exactly this. Our health and life energy is worth more than the extra $1000 here and there.
The entitlement of all FW’s is glaring but it is also STUPID. A sane person would never give up a faithful, loving, spouse. That’s not to say people are perfect, because no one is, but when you have a faithful spouse that spends 3 decades with you sharing the ups and downs, stability, love, financial, kids, chores, a home, etc., and you just throw it away with both hands for some phony attention… (my FW#2 of 30 years was duped by a money ho that asked for money a few weeks in and he also thought she “loved” him. lol) …there is something severely wrong with you. These people are sick, just mentally ill, and the only thing you can do is save yourself, because they have shown you they don’t give a shit about you.
A former marriage counselor described FW as a bottomless pit, black void and not fully a person.
I dislike calling these serial cheating NPD FW “mentally ill” because that seems to me easy to twist into excusingy the behavior (self pity channel). It’s also insulting to people sufferimg from schizophrenia or other serious psychiatric conditions who aren’t manipulative sociopaths.
Funny that you mention this, but my FW#2 was professionally diagnosed at the behest of his therapist about a year after D-Day. This was about a year into the misery of the pick me dance that lasted 2 years. But he had been diagnosed with :
NPD
High traits of APD, so high I think he should have been diagnosed with that as well
Lower traits of HPD
Turbulent Personality
Paranoia
and…
Bipolar I
When he heard the Bipolar I, it was like a light bulb went off in his head. You could see the look on his face in the Psychologists office in that moment. You could tell he was thinking “this is my get out of jail free card.” And he used it as such in the months following. “People don’t make good choices when they are in mania. I was out of control and out of my mind, that wasn’t me, I made a choice I would never have made if I hadn’t been in mania, I was very “ill”, etc.”
He just used the hell out of it. And I told him, “mania can’t make you make a choice, it’s not a gun to the head, you still had to make the choice, even if the mania played some part in it.” And he completely ignored the other diagnoses as well, to which I told him, I think it was the NPD/APD (he was being very cruel to me in a specific way, in his words, revenge for me making him screw up at work and lose his job? It’s a long story).
I just couldn’t stand it any more. I agree that his undiagnosed and untreated mental illness may have played a part, but they did not MAKE him cheat. He CHOSE to cheat and knew it was wrong the whole time. Not only did his hiding it prove that, but when I saw the cheating on his phone and tried to get it from him he said, “it will hurt you, it will hurt you,” over and over, which means he knew it was wrong and hurtful. That is not being out of control. That is agency and awareness that what he was doing was wrong. And of course, he was the victim, not me.
” And I told him, “mania can’t make you make a choice, it’s not a gun to the head, you still had to make the choice, even if the mania played some part in it.”
This is true. But lets play Devil’s Advocate. Let’s say, he truly could not help it. He truly was so far beyond control and he could not help but continuoously make choices to cheat on you.
You would still have to leave. It is still cheating. It is still harming you.
Yes, totally agree with the still having to leave due to the harm. You are spot on there! And I am not trying to be “right” but I do want to share some more info with you to see what you think, if you want to offer more 🙂
I was there and can tell you, he was not out of control to that point. Being out of control totally means you would not have the presence of mind to hide it, delete texts, sneak around, etc. He was doing his job just fine. Job would have been affected as well, like the one he got fired from. He was in mania then and got fired because he just kept making mistakes for things he’d done a million times. But once he got fired the rage and NPD took over. Narcissistic mortification (check our Sam Vaknin on YouTube for this).
And he also told me after D-Day that he had cheated on purpose as revenge for me causing him to lose his job. lol. Like I was there making his make all the mistakes that led to him being fired? I totally believe that as, he had so much rage in him. I’m “lucky” he didn’t strangle me to death over his “cheater” phone, not just into unconsciousness.
He also confessed there were days when he would look in the mirror and question why he was doing this and why he couldn’t stop. No one is in mania 100% of the time for 8 months straight. Mania doesn’t work quite like that (usually, there could be exceptions, my FW was not one of them according to the guy who diagnosed him). There are periods of clarity and where the mania calms down. Usually that’s when people can see the damage they have done or are doing. So him in the mirror was one of those times that he “came down”, so to speak.
The mania probably made it easier for him to cheat, no doubt, but I believe that with his other diagnoses, that cheating is just who he is intrinsically. He cheated on his first wife too, not just me. It became a pattern of behavior when he cheated on me as well. And he insists he was not in a mania when he cheated on her, just wasn’t happy. So this time (with me) was “different”!
I liken it to the mania being the fuel in the tank, but HE was still driving the bus, steering it, which takes forethought and presence of mind.
And sorry this was so long! Was just trying to describe all the things that went down back then.
oh, to be VERY clear, I don’t doubt your observation one bit.
When I said “even if he WAS in full blown mania and even if that actually meant he truly couldn’t help it…you still had to leave” I meant it more as a retort to HIM and to all the FWs that have all their excuses. There comes a point where the *why* doesn’t matter..the end result is still betrayal nad the Chump needs to get away.
I think all the FWs lie and make up excuses. And as you said, yes, they are ALL at their core just cheaters. I wasn’t the first person chumped by my FW. So when he wants to say that it is my fault, gotta wonder was it the first chump’s fault too? How many women does he have to cheat on before he will accept that HE is just a cheater? (The million dollar question there. That and when will he realize that he should just date casually and stop promising women a commitment he is unwilling and incapable of providing?)
M therapist can’t diagnose my FW as he doesn’t see her. But she has heard enough to say that he has displayed many traits of the disordered. That means that he may never be able to change. Even with therapy, as some of these types of disorders make therapy very difficult. If by definition you are someone whose brain chemistry makes taking accountability nearly impossible, how do you grow and learn to take accountasbility? So in some ways, I feel bad for the guy. He blew up his life, and is destined to posssibly do so again and again, and his own brain is working against him.
But that all said, I can’t be with someone that is going to harm me. And I can’t fix him. So here we are.
I figured you were really aiming at HIM. “how many women does he have to cheat on before he will accept HE is just a cheater?” That’s such a good question and observation! I wish I had thought of that to ask him years ago! lol.
I get the desire to “fix”. When you love someone, you try to help them in any way possible, right?
We paid a lot of money (4k, but most was insurance, our part was only 600) to find out my FW#2’s diagnosis(s) and when he heard the Bipolar, he just said, “that’s why it happened, wasn’t my fault.” and stopped going to therapy, etc. I guess I should give him credit that he started taking meds for it, but it wasn’t enough to save our marriage. But I think with the NPD diagnosis, he would have quit therapy anyway.
I hope he is still taking them, for his sake (and our kids. don’t want him around out kids unmedicated, even though they are adults now) and for others in general. He proved he had/has a dangerous combination of mental illness. Just shocking he was able to hide it for so long. Still gets me, even to this day.
Yes, they’re drowning, but we can’t save them, we would only be pulled under with them.
When I first met my FW, he hadn’t drunk alcohol for 2 years and never did (to my knowledge) while we were married. He made me promise that, if he ever drank, I would leave him.
Whelp, the destructive behavior is about something else, but I’m leaving him. I won’t be involved ever again, but maybe in some way, this will be a wake-up call for him?
agency and awareness!
This is exactly what I am talking about. NPD will use anything and everything to deflect and image manage. For what it’s worth I heard it straight from psychiatrists that bipolar diagnosis does not equal compulsive lying, secret double life, or lack of empathy.
Thank you for that. Wish my therapist had said that. She told me I needed to see MY role in his cheating…?
Yeah, I constantly told him that, that the bipolar didn’t make him sneak around, lie, deceive, gaslight, etc., that was all the personality disorders and that was who he truly was on the inside. But he denied it every time and said that had nothing to do with it. Would just totally ignore that part of his diagnoses. Really strange. He would even go as so far to point out articles in the news where bipolar people would do terrible things and say “see”, they do things they wouldn’t normally do in a mania meltdown.
Whatever…
Your therapist abused you. I had one too and called the months with her and my ex Abuse Enhancement. Vile.
Strange? Hardly. Change a few words in this Upton Sinclair quote and you see the why of much NPD behavior.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it”
On the day it all came out, my FW put his therapist on speaker phone to talk to us both. The first words out of her mouth were, “Chumplet, I don’t want you to think this is all your fault; it’s both of your faults.”
Um, what?
WOW.
Just….wow.
We have all said this until we are blue in the face, but that is simply not true.
It can be true that 2 people contribute to a marriage not being ideal. But itf you are displeased in your marriage for whatever reason, you can ethically leave. Being unhappy doesn’t excuse cheating.
And of course there is the added aspect that SO many FWs aren’t actually looking to leave. They want the AP and the spouse. So that makes it even less the Chumps fault. The FQ in those cases wants to cheat because they feel entitled to do so. Period.
Where did HIS therapist get off telling you, someone that was NOT their client, what is or is not their fault anyway? So inappropriate!
Jesus Christ. Mine just loved taking his money but didn’t “help” or care and was probably a psycho. Tracy’s take on the Reconciliation Industrial Complex is brilliant.
OMG, I hate that for you, so sorry. Seems like most of us here have suffered that narrative. Somehow the betrayed chumps “made” them do it. Such total bullshit. Makes me want to barf. People need to stop asking the chumps “what did you do to make them do that?” when they SHOULD BE asking the cheaters, “why did you cheat and have abhorrent, immoral behavior?”
Drives me nuts.
victim blaming
Keyword HIS therapist. Many incompetent and unethical counselors out there. Fire him/her
Yeah, I dumped 3 therapists. Just gave up at that point.
Your ex reminds me of my mother… I know she’s a bipolar pill addict, but over the past few months, I was trying to reconcile with her because she’s my mom, and I only have the one, and it went about as well as expected… Zero accountability, entitlement cranked up to a thousand. The world revolved around her; it was an FW checklist.
I found out a few weeks ago my mother has a long history of bunny boiler behavior: stalking judges (at their homes in the 90s), surgeons(recently fired from hospital volunteer position for harassment), multiple politicians (a congressman from a different state, a big city one and a more local one), fired from multiple shrinks; she lost jobs because she was obsessed with men in power (sexted one boss and sent love letters to another), her family didn’t want us to think less of her so they hid it. She wasn’t very maternal, so someone always covered for her when she was gone. I found out because her remaining family has had enough and won’t speak to her anymore. Like the past few decades of gaslighting and attempting to remain neutral wasn’t crazy making in and of itself.
In hindsight, everything makes more sense given the details conveniently left out.. It’s been a hell of a skein to untangle, and I may never figure it out, but that’s not my job, and I don’t want to waste my time trying to figure out the nonsensical anymore.
What I’m trying to say is you’re entirely correct. No one forces them to act that way. They may be crazy, but it’s also up to them to manage their craziness and not use it to harm people. AND as the harmed person, you have every right to say Enough is enough and walk away
My FW also convinced himself that the strippers/hookers he was paying were his friends and he wanted to show them how “good men” treat women. (Good men don’t cheat on their wives, but that point went over his head).
“Yes, dumba**, all the girls in their 20’s are clamoring to hang out with the married, middle aged man who comes into the strip club by himself for no other reason than your awesomeness…” <insert eyeroll>
Yes, one of my FW’s hookers is younger than our daughter. (Funny enough: both of the main hookers lied to him about their age. This one said she was older, 30, and the other one said she was 45 when she’s really 35.) If you’re trying to help a young woman who is engaging in prostitution, maybe having sex with her shouldn’t be part of the deal.
100%
It stroked his ego to see himself as some sort of savior. Even if I wanted to reconcile, the amount of ick the whole dynamic gave me would make that impossible.
This was me. He had so many secret accounts, and going through them was incredibly painful. I could only do a little bit at a time.
“Give it to your attorney and let them decide what to use. You know enough to know you’re divorcing. You don’t need every particular.”
Couldn’t do that. We were making a huge claim for marital waste. And the only person who could know that the trips, gifts, etc., were not for me was me. Even I had to go back and check my calendars to make sure. And each event was like a dagger in my heart. Like the time i had pneumonia, and he flew out “for work” in the middle of my illness. His credit card statement showed that the minute his plane touched down, he met her for a romantic dinner. That’s just one of many examples. There were out of state LLCs, including one that provided “modeling services.” He’s a corporate attorney for a financial services company. I assume that last was a way to secretly funnel money to her.
it was incredibly painful to go through five years of statements line by line and I learned more than I ever wanted to know. But only I could do it; my lawyer wouldn’t have known. And it was worth it. I got paid. It’s five years later and I own a condo in Manhattan and I get monthly alimony. He’s married to the garden tool and has an airtight prenup. Good luck to them both.
I’m going through this right now. Going through 5-7 years of secret and joint cards, bank statements, hidden savings, etc, I discovered he cashed out all our joint investments. I’m trying to reach half the value of our condo so I can get it free and clear in exchange for his breach of fiduciary duty–he’ll have no way to pay me back what he owes me. It is tough to go through these things–DDay was 2.5 years ago, but I’m finding the realities here that I only speculated about before make me so sad. I feel so sad for the me I was before I knew what a monster he is.
I will also have a forensic accountant review the documents to ensure I’m not double-counting and to verify the bank statements. He was taking thousands of dollars out in cash and I think they’ll have better luck tracing that kind of stuff since this is their gig. I’m a dilettante who loves research, and I want to be sure I get every penny I’m owed.
I agree with others that if we were talking a few hundred or even a few thousand dollars, I might let it go, but I need to get the house to support my daughter and myself. I can’t afford to live in our expensive county otherwise–our mortgage is half the rent for smaller places nearby!
Good for you. You are free and have your own place in the best city! I’m so sorry you had to go through that but I am happy for where you are. “garden tool” is hilarious btw!
Yes, this is me. There will be a huge waste claim. My lawyer and her paralegal joked that I was getting them so much useful information, that they should hire me for other cases.
And part of me feels that it’s good that I dive into all this, as painful as it is. Keeps me busy and keeps me angry and may very well help my case.
I’m the type of person who doesn’t wait for the elevator. I take the stairs. I might not get there any quicker, but I feel like I am doing something. 🙂
But when I see the shopping sprees and the hotel rooms, I sometimes have to knock off for a bit and take a walk around the block.
It is a horror show I experienced x2 as indicated above. Chumplet, later you will get it and see how beautiful a person you are, how loyal, loving and family oriented. I was too busy to put tractor beams on body parts, too busy being mommy and working, too busy with good friends and illnesses and just too busy not to trust. Too busy not to trust. Now I see both cheaters depended on that 14 years and then the next cheater 30 years of me living my life happily. So Focus ALL YOUR ENERGY on getting the best settlement. I was happy to get out with my retirement and nothing more. But I am out 2 years now and no contact with both my long term cheaters. I got counseling and figured out my can of worms after the divorce was final. I had 2 entitled misogynistic men who used woman. I had 2 Shakespearen actors that knew how to act and lie to get what they wanted. I get it now. You will get it too. Focus on the end game and get all you can. Focus on your freedom from lies.
The discoveries of so much unknown during this process is both devastating and daunting. I realized I no longer recognized the man I had been with since we were 13 years old, married at 23 and then married for decades.. I gave myself a good cry at each discovery and then used the information to help reinforce my resolve to keep moving forward and get out. It’s gut wrenching to realize your life partner is not your partner at all, and maybe never has been. It would be more devastating to stay and endure more lies and pain.
Yes! It’s like there’s a changeling in place of the man I married . . . or thought I married. If you had asked me the day before everything came out, I would have said he was a great guy, so would my kids, and everyone else. My adult kids separately had the same reaction when they found out. They both said, “Oh, I thought he was one of the good ones.” 🙁
I called him the pod person replacement.
New slippers for you but $3K to hookers?? I remember being grateful when mine picked up organic produce for me instead of regular. He was spending hundreds every month on his emotional affair co-worker, but here I was thinking he was sweet and thoughtful because he spent $1-$2 more on something for me. We made our standards so low versus what they were capable of, didn’t we?
Now husband #2 buys me actual gifts. XH mentioned sometime ago that his new GF didn’t mind spending Valentine’s Day at the nickel arcade because he had no money, and I thought, “Yup, sounds like you.”
Hope they have dissipation in your state and you pursue it, Chumplet. Stay strong.
They do have dissipation in my state. 🙂
My therapist asked me if I thought he had taken advantage of my “agreeableness.” I thought that was a strange word to use, so I looked it up. It’s a personality trait, and it sounds great: it means you are altruistic and empathetic, you are kind and cooperative, and want social harmony. But it also means that you can be mistaken for a doormat. 🙁
It’s like what Tracy says elsewhere: We think they think like us, but they don’t. Damn, but he could hide it so well.
It is unbelievably difficult to process everything found during discovery. Excruciating. Earth shattering. But no one can do it better than you.
I am sorry you have to go through this process and I truly believe none of us can even begin to heal until the divorce is finalized. It’s all too traumatic.
I disagree with Chump Lady on turning all the statements over to your lawyer. Doing that costs money and they can miss things. I lived in a no-fault state but the cheater did not want to risk ruining his reputation or career by proceeding to trial. He looked foolish at the deposition and would look worse at a trial. So we were able to use his cheating to force a good settlement.
I acted as my own legal assistant and went through all the documents with a fine tooth comb. While reviewing the cheater’s statements, I realized that banks and certain chain store have numbers next to the store name. I located the addresses using those numbers and was able to prove that the cheater was going to the bank or picking up medications the a neighborhood she was living in, not his. When you go to an ATM at 11pm and CVS at 6am the next morning, it’s a pretty good sign that person slept in that neighborhood.
No one has more to gain from the tiny details than you do. I don’t think it is going to make the pain of infidelity any worse but it will make your legal fees lower. In my case, it gave my lawyer the ability to ask for a better settlement because he didn’t want to go to trial where I would have put him and her on the stand.
Will add that at the time I buried myself in documentation I was also suffering from depression over the shock and my new reality. I leaned heavily on my therapist and some friends. I do not regret any of the time I spent digging.
Thank you. Yes, this is my situation too, so I have to be involved. And good point about looking at the timing of things. I had been making a timeline coordinating calendar entries with bank statements, etc., but put it aside to do discovery stuff.
Maybe it’s good to be busy.
Being betrayed, and then the divorce process after it is a total nightmare. It just is.
It isn’t linear either. One moment you are grieving what you thought you had, the next you are infuriated over some detail you just found out. The feelings can pop up at any time.
I will say that I didn’t have to learn as many details as your process is requiring you to learn. That has got to be brutal.
I learned plenty, but it truly is just the tip of the iceberg. And yet, it’s stil more info than I would like to have. That said, anger is fiery and burns away pain, fear and sadness. So sometimes, those little details you learn can be useful.
He isn’t as good at manipulating me these days, as I have healed. But earlier on, he could. And he played a lot of “poor me- woe is me” and early on, it left me SO conflicted because I knew I wanted out and that I could not stay, but I felt bad for him. I found that pulling out one of those little infuriationg bits of discovery would help remind me that he was not sorry, nor sad, but was rather the same guy that bought her and I the SAME gifts at times. The same guy that was lying to me for years. Stuff like that would really help me remember who I was dealing with. So at least the painful discoveries can be of use some time.
And some day, the details won’t matter. He will just be that asshat that betrayed you, nd the individual ways jsut won’t see important at all. Maybe a few doozies will stand out. And hopefully, you’ll be in a good, stable place financuially and those details will have been worth learning.
Yes, his tears and then you see something else he’s doing ….
And here we are, just betrayed by the person we thought we knew best in the world, and now tackle the complicated worlds of divorce law and maybe financial advisors, and pick someone you trust (ha! who you just met, who just gave you a sales pitch) with such important factors for your life. 🤯
My ex sent hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars per day to the online catfish scammer he never met. He had pilfered my non-marital assets and the statute of limitations ran out, so there was no getting it back. He’d been hiding assets for years, probably out of state. Stole from my family, too.
As soon as I filed–after proving the Shmoopie he wanted to marry was a romance scam–he started wining and dining women in a desperate attempt at image management. He had always been cheap with me and kids, so it hurt to see him take new dates to five star resorts at peak season. And my lawyers told me it was not considered a waste of marital assets because we were separated and he was entitled to spend our money however he desired. Wish they told me I could have done the same, instead of scrimping to get basic groceries.
He refused to comply with court deadlines and legal demands for paperwork, etc., so I had to keep paying lawyers to go back to court over and over again. There were never any consequences, until we got to custody. Since he had refused to do any paperwork and resisted basic requirements, all the experts were against him and I got sole custody and decision making.
Chumplet, if he was desirable in any way except a wallet, those hookers would not be charging him by the hour. I hope your lawyer gives you the go-ahead to share that little tidbit with your family and social circle, since it shows him for the fool he is. He can’t even claim it was twu tuv.
One of the best things that my lawyer told me to do was to draw out the time before he files and – basically I did that – (I made him file) – I bought 5 first class tickets to various places around the world, a Chanel jacket, Took my girlfriends on multiple shopping sprees.. and so on. Someone said “go slower” but I just went for it. Glad I did that. One of the few things I did right. F that guy.
I sure wish someone told me that. I was visiting the food bank and thrift stores.
Yes, I often think that my FW fell into a romance scam, except it wasn’t online and he got to have sex. Not that that excuses any of his behavior.
I’ve come to see that online romance scams are the newest iteration of something that’s been around for a long time, but before the technology scammer/hookers could only target foolish men with money in real life.
“Yes, I often think that my FW fell into a romance scam, except it wasn’t online and he got to have sex. Not that that excuses any of his behavior.”
Mine had a long distance affair. It was mostly emotional and carried out from afar, though there is at least one time that I know for sure he likely met up with her while traveling for work. Possibly others.
When I first found out, I was convinced he was being catfished. She was younger and conventionally attractive. She knew he was married with kids. She lived on the other side of the country.
I just kept thinking, “she is young, pretty and single. Can’t she find 100 married guys with kids willing to cheat in her own state? Or a single guy with no kids 3 states away instead of 10”?
He wasn’t being catfished. She was real. I have given up on trying to figure out HER motives. She honestly may have just thought it was fun.
My daughter works at a restaurant just voted one of the most romantic in town. She says the number of Sugar Daddies and Sugar Babies (old man, young woman) coming in is astounding.
Chumplet,
Back in the day, ancient Phoenicians maintained military dominance by telling the rest of the known world that the earth was flat and anyone who tried tried to sail through the straits of Gibralter would fall off the edge of the world. But in the meantime Phoenician fleets were regularly sailing to the British isles and trading for tin which was intrinsic for producing weapons and therefore having a strong military.
Pardon me while I beat the analogy with a stick: Imagine “Meh” as the British isles, that what you’re going through now as the “Straits of Gibralter,” that the hopeless and despairing voices in your head warning you that what awaits on the other side is only bleak emptiness are merely Phoenician propaganda (i.e., remnants of abuser brainwashing) and that “tin” is the material (whether professional or social support or actual resources) you need to rebuild your strength and security in the world. Then the British isles are “Meh” I guess and a fab and happy future.
I also think the idea of “weapons” fits in there somewhere because one thing that really helped me with the nauseating task of digging for the smoking gun evidence I needed in a fault state to turn the tables on FW and ensure he was less contentious was a kind of predatory mentality. Basically the worse the factual dirt = the worse he looked = the stronger my case and the weaker his case.
What I think also helped is that my parents raised me not to be ashamed or afraid of that predatory “animal” side of myself because, just like every sovereign country needs a good defense system, that “military mode” side of ourselves exists for a reason and, as long as it’s being used judiciously and for a just cause by an individual who, in better times, just wants peace, it’s not a “bad” or shameful faculty.
But in order to “unleash” the inner beast, I think it’s important to realize that the typical brainwashing which deems women “unfeminine” for having a badass side to themselves is only (stretching the analogy even further) more “Phoenician” malarkey meant to keep us from getting “tin.” Frankly the human race wouldn’t have survived if women didn’t have a badass faculty that could kick in to defend themselves and their children so I think developing the ability to tap into our defenses is probably one of the most important things most women can do.
Anyway, if you can tap into that judicious, pragmatic rage and snarky predator side of yourself (gallows humor has actually been deemed as an effective trauma survival tool in clinical research), you’ll probably find it has the bonus of working as a kind of functional painkiller to get you through the worst part of the ordeal. But what you’ll need in order to do this for awhile are comrades in arms who will support your campaign and share in whatever gallows humor, battle anthems and pissed off outbursts required to fuel your military mode. Hopefully you have a few ride-or-die friends around but, if not, forums like CN have your back.
To quote my daughter’s favorite fridge magnet, “Come to the dark side, we have cookies.”
Thanks. How’s this for gallows humor? FW bought a townhouse for one of the hookers. (My attorney friend said, “Tell me he wasn’t stupid enough to put it in her name.” Yes, yes, he was.) Now, when one of us in the family makes a mistake or hurts someone’s feelings by accident, we say, “Well, at least it’s not a secret townhouse.”
Lol, ugh, yikes about the townhouse. I’m sure you have deeply conflicting feelings about the fact he did this and even the way he left himself legally vulnerable in doing it. On the one hand it’s kind of embarrassing by association to realize we were married to people that dumb but, on the other, his stupidity gave you an advantage.
In any case, hooray for snarky family support and running gags. Apparently you’re already ahead of the game in that sense since many here have had to cobble together support systems when family didn’t step up or even undermined and made recovery harder.
To flog another analogy, I find catastrophic events like this are like loosing an arm in a wood chipper and that laughter is the best “tourniquet.” Consequently I’m so grateful for friends who could come along for the bumpy ride and keep me laughing or take the wattage of my harsh humor. I think when people know your factory setting is basically kind-hearted, they’re less likely to be spooked when you go through a gritty or even cynical phase because they’re assured you’ll eventually return to your regular mild-mannered self when the dust settles.
Chumplet — So sorry you are going through this. My situation was unfortunately similar. I would say: Make sure you get an excellent attorney, and follow their advice. I was able to find an attorney who understood my situation, and she advised me to be the one to do the talking with my X about legal/financial arrangements in the early days post-Dday, rather than the attorney corresponding/talking with X directly.
This worked out well because my X was in “sad sausage” phase and agreed to everything I proposed, with a financial settlement that was very much in my favor, even though we live in a no-fault state and had been married for 20+ years.
I did not hide from my X that I was working with an attorney; the atty just said that in her experience, having the attorney make the first contact can make Xs get defensive and accuse the chump of “lawyering up,” and this can have a backlash effect. If the X then gets a lawyer, only the lawyer can correspond with their counterpart. If you’re lucky, it’s possible your X will opt not to get an attorney (my X never did).
My attorney’s advice was also to move as quickly as possible because, as she told me, X’s guilty feelings might wear off at some point and he might realize how much he was leaving on the table.
Note that this fast-paced approach set me up for a big emotional gut punch later on when the divorce was finalized, six months after D-day, so I can relate to what you are going through, and it is, undoubtedly, absolutely horrendous. I was lucky to find a good therapist through my EAP to talk with. Long walks also help, a lot. I am now two years past D-day and doing much better, but I still read this blog daily because it has really helped to save my sanity. And the fact that my adult kids and I will be financially OK in the long run is also really helping my sense of well-being — so as hard as it has been, it is worth it to get your ducks in a row in these early days.
Lastly — in addition to Tracy’s book — consider two other books: Living and Loving after Betrayal, by Steven Stosny, and The Grieving Brain: The Surprising Science of How We Learn from Love and Loss, by Mary-Frances O’Connor. Stay strong, and remember that you are beautiful and wise, and you do not deserve to be treated badly.
You had a great lawyer!
Thanks for the book recommendations. Yes, I have had to adjust Tracy’s “no contact” approach. My attorney wants me to respond and be civil. He had been love-bombing me by text, and each text cast a pall on my day, how sad he was, etc. He really did send me a selfie of his tear-stained face. I told him, Don’t text me unless you need information or have some information to impart. I unfortunately still see love-bomb texts on occasion, but I don’t respond.
p.s. Also don’t tell other people any details of your legal work, attorney conversations, etc. unless you are confident they are zero-contact with your X. This is also emotionally extremely taxing, but pays off in the long run.
I also learned very early on that certain people didn’t believe me about anything, so why tell them about the legal part of it? So I didn’t.
And I didn’t vent to my college kids, telling them that their job was to get good grades, and my job was to deal with the divorce stuff. In time, we had to make certain decisions on insurance, tuition, and cars that involved them, so I took their feedback there, but it was my divorce, not theirs.
I vented a LOT to a handful of safe friends, and that was it.
Yes, I don’t vent to my kids, although they do vent to me. One was there when the truth came out. When they ask, and they are adults, I try to answer as succinctly and as evenly as I can and say as little as I can without lying by omission. Last thing they need is for their other parent to lie to them as well.. (I think back to the advice I got when they were young, about telling them about the birds and the bees: listen very closely to the question and answer only the question asked, like you would answer an IRS agent.) A therapist told me, you have to answer to a certain point because, if they don’t get answers, they may think it’s even worse than it is, and may even think it’s their fault. And they will sense something is wrong. I also tell them that he loves them. This is per my therapist’s advice, and I do think he loves them. He’s just super fucked-up. I think they are as devastated and hurt, though in different ways, as I am. I’ll have to look: Did Tracy write about the adult children in these situations?
I agree with everything you have written here. My therapist gave me advice I try to remember, which is that avoiding badmouthing X is to preserve my relationship with my kids, it’s not about protecting him nor their relationship with him. So, I don’t tell them he loves them; that is his job, as far as I’m concerned. From the beginning I have said next to nothing about him, have told the kids (who were both in college when this blew up, and both of whom still live with me) that they can ask me any questions, but they really don’t. As time goes on (2 years now since D-day) it is nice to have our house be a totally FW-free zone where we don’t talk about him at all. In any case I would find it hard to be neutral about any FW-related topic — but for me, he is truly an NPC in our lives. Recently one of my kids made an offhand remark, not related to the divorce but to something X did during the pandemic, that “He’s an idiot” and we laughed together as I just said, “Well, no comment.” 🙂
Yes, I agree with this, but once he had been gone for a year, I didn’t say that he loved them anymore. He had only texted them a handful of times, really, nothing else. They felt that he didn’t love them very much. Well, I get it. When a parent almost entirely drops out of your life, it hurts.
Dealing with adult children certainly comes up here and there, but mostly in talk about graduations and weddings, from what I’ve seen.
Make sure your attorney and their staff are vetted for conflict of interest. My first attorney did not disclose that his partner represented FW in a criminal case that I was basing my entire change of custody on. One of the paralegals was involved ( that name was the one I recognized; the other one wound up being best friends with his girlfriend). The settlement was not favorable, and I have spent too much time and money trying to fix it.
Yes, this is great advice.
Oh, man. That’s awful.
Dear Slipper Recipient:
Greetings from your sole sister. I’m in exactly the same place you are, going through all the lies and documenting for the divorce. In my STBX’s case, the lies aren’t just about sex, they are about EVERYTHING. He lied to get his job, he lied on taxes, he lied to get weapons, he lies in court, he lies to his own attorney. Speaking metaphorically, pretty much every rock I turn over has a big plop of poo under it, compliments of him.
I have no idea how to sideline the emotional response while doing this, so I don’t even try. Sometimes I take the pressure and crazy down a notch via baby goat videos, chocolate, naps, period Victorian romances, poetry and cleaning. Plus my wonderful kick-ass therapist who explained to me last month that Krispy Kreme donuts are not self-care. (Even the fresh, warm ones! Not kidding!). I am pretty much taking it one exhausting day at a time, and when that is overwhelming, one step at a time. Like climbing Everest…carrying a giant, 240 pound asshole in your back pack.
I get the same advice to forget about justice, and I’m sure it is solid and well-intentioned advice. But fuck no, not gonna give up on it and will keep on fighting. I used to think that justice was a nice to have, but it turns out it is as essential to life as air and water.
Good luck to you, my friend.
I eat cake every night. Or cookies or – tonight, a salted caramel brownie. It is a beautiful way to end my nights.
He never wanted to sleep with the dogs. They now both sleep with me — and are better bed buddies than he ever was. They don’t snore.
Love! Pets, friends, children, freedom.
Thanks. Except it’s bad news about the Krispy Kremes. Maybe your therapist’s wrong?
Yes, it appears to me that my FW is lying to his attorney. At least I hope she’s not lying along with him. But in either case, that can’t be good for their side, right? And many of his lies are dumb and easily disproved. It’s so strange.
Yes, you all are helping me get my fighting spirit back. 🙂 Thank you.
Expect your divorce attorney to be scummy and totally fine with a lying client.
99% of the time as long as they “win” & get the billable hours in they don’t care. Be wary
So God awful true about finding so many lies in different areas of life. That’s what the flying monkeys and cheater apologists ignore. Beneath every serial cheater is a narcissistic sociopathic as-$#*$*.
Practice your own way of obtaining justice. I finally got past the knee jerk reaction of calling out lies. FW don’t like exposure.
Think iron fist in a velvet glove
Chumplet, I am so sorry you are here. I, too spent almost my whole adult life being chumped–38-39 years of a bogus marriage. It is awful. I have just one (grown) child, who was horrified.
Now, as a proud member of the septegunarian club, I can breathe a sigh of relief. I no longer have that FW on my back. But yes, it is truly awful to think of the missed opportunities, the imbalanced load of work, parenting, etc that I carried–and you did, too, no doubt.
I first leanred of one person, then the next, the next, and it was such a long list of people and places all over North America (and porn, strip clubs, gay bars ) that I eventually just stopped counting and caring. One was more horrid than the next.Astounding. And I was such a prize. So smart, accomplished, successful, lovely, fit, trim, and pretty. He chose so poorly when he chose those betrayal objets.
I am glad you have good attorney.
No, there will not be another family or a fairytale romance. But you will have your peace, your health, your life.You wil get support and ideas here to help you. Contact anytime for support.
You will absolutely get your sanity back. You were living in a trash dump and got used to the smell and sights. The lies creep up on. Jahmonwildflower, you said it all
Thank you so much.
Yes, that is one of the hardest things: We had what I thought — and he often said! — was such a great life. Now, it seems like more than half my life, and all of my children’s lives, were, if not totally false, riddled with falseness. He was always capable of this dishonestly, was he not? And who knows when it all really started. He was not who we thought he was. All of our memories are tainted. My therapist, who thinks he is 100% at fault, calls him “pathetic” and says she feels sorry for him because “this will now always be his legacy.” So stupid and unnecessary. If only he were honest. If he wasn’t happy, even if he found himself falling in love with someone else, he should have just been honest and ended it. It’s not the sex, although that’s surely not great. It’s the lies.
“It’s not the sex, although that’s surely not great. It’s the lies.”
This is something that I think only Chumps can truly understand. It isn’t just about “oh my FW wanted someone else more than me and got naked with them”. Sure. That hurts. That is unpleasant.
But for me it was so much more about the lies. The sneaking around. I found out 3 years in. It continued for another 3 before he moved out. And of course, I now wonder who there was before her as it would be naive to think he only cheated a few decades in. So it’s not just the lies, it’s the fact that I gave my ONE life to this FW, who faked it all with me. I could have been single, iving an authentic life, or with someone that actually wanted to be with me.
This is what many Switzerland bystanders don’t understand or wish to gloss over. The theft of your time and life. And the DECEIT on my gosh the endless deceit of the compulsive liar.
FW lies still, post divorce. I’m still gobsmacked and how much he lies about everything. EVERY THING
ended the marriage, I mean. I see you guys can edit comments. I haven’t figured thatout yet.
Yes, Chumplet, the life of lies. It is awful. All the days and years youthiught were real, well, itturms out he was likely not telling the truth. That was my story. The decades of him telling me and eveyone else he was somewhere that he wasn’t, was “working,” (going on a 450 mile road trip to Pebble Beach and Sausalito is work if you have a laptop in the car)–going to a gay bar with an infected bisexual hooker and taking her to your hotel room is work if you met through work, and lots, and lots of other nonsense. The entire life of my adult child was fake. No wonder so many people thought I was a single parent! I was. I am sorry you are here and uncovering the lies. Eventually the betrayal objects will melt into one big pile of sordid trash. They will not matter. Neither will he. It just is lousy right now. Better days are ahead. Travel,peace, good friends, better health, a sense of calm. If you were out here in the Mountain Time zone, I would
meet you for coffee and listen and listen. Reach out here anytime. We are in your corner. Mine once gave me a cell phone charging cord for my birthday. He bought it a the checkout at a grocery store. You will learn that thoughtless gifts are one of the many hallmarks of cheaters. Sending hugs.
Also, when you are thrown into the wash during the rinse and spin cycle, you are disoriented, sick, wet and extremely dizzy. How do you know what’s going on at all? Chumplet, stay with us, read our stories, hold on to hope, fight strong and hard to get as much as you legally can. You will have the rest of your years to strengthen your boundaries and learn all you’ll ever need to learn about the mind of a liar.
although it has been excruciatingly painful, surviving “the discoveries of cheating” is maybe the very process that makes us strong enough to endure, fight and, finally/ultimately/hopefully(!) thrive as our newly liberated selves!
Yes, that is what I hope. I have a plan of where I want to move (I hope it works out) and I’ve been signing up for local periodicals and social-media sites.
Welcome to the Matrix. What you knew as your reality has been revealed to be an illusion designed to keep you a slave battery Chump.
Dig only as much as you can tolerate. No more.
It is a series of traumatic experiences and you can only take so many kicks to the head.
(neglect, emotional abandonment, withholding connection/affection)
This sounds like my ex.
you are on your way to. freedom! So glad you have this group early on- wis hI had. Anger toward action! Get all you can from him.
Dear Chumplet, I could have written this letter. Exact same story, details are identical (scary). You are not alone! Dear CL, love your reply! Thanks for keeping it real with your advise and validation.
Isn’t it wild how identical the stories, down to their details, are? I hate that there is so much pain for so many, but finding out I am not alone has been a lifesaver.
Ooooo! I have logs of his phone calls and texts, but I didn’t know the data records could show much. What can it show?
I never had the experience of doing that for a lawyer.
This probably isn’t going to generalize well, but here is how I handled my own personal Chump-ing in that regard (as the hits kept coming after D-Day-“no reason to hide” after all).
I deal with radioactive thought for a living. I am honored and privileged to serve the people that I do and help them be better people, get back on their feet, and get another chance at this crazy thing called “the world”. That said, I deal with my share of murderers, rapists, con artists, thieves, domestic and child abusers, etc. There are horrors I will never unhear.
Getting onto two years since my own D-Day, the key revelation for me in all of this has been that cheating is an act of abuse. Full stop. By extension, my fuckwit is an abuser.
Boiling that down-the new revelations became a lot easier (never easy, mind you) to compartmentalize and deal with when I embraced that fact and accepted that if my fuckwit was ever the loving, funny, amazing person I was in love with that they were not that way any longer and were fundamentally no different from any villain I deal with professionally. I reassigned her role in my head as somebody that does bad, self-centered, vindictive, hurtful things. “Lies, deceit, greed and mistrust are (his) ways now.”
I was informed in couples counseling that she had demoted me from the role of “romantic partner.” So I demoted her to the role of “villain.” I repeat: it does not entirely remove the sting. The expectations violation being restrained makes it easier to swallow.
The goofy nerd I fell in love with would never do those things. The fuckwit that quite nearly destroyed me? Par for the course.