What Messages Did You Get to Stay with a Cheater?
What cultural messages did you get to stay with a cheater? And who delivered those messages? Your mother? Your religious institution? The Reconciliation Industrial Complex?
I was thinking about this the messages we get to stay after my interview with Sarah Manguso about her book Liars in the Tell Me How You’re Mighty podcast. The protagonist Jane believes that “marriage is work.” And so no matter what the FW throws at her, she stays and tries harder. She is the perfect chaos janitor.
Why do chumps think this is our role?
Did you believe messages like “marriage is work”? Or “I’m a failure without a partner”? Or “God hates divorce” or some other bullshit?
I’ve written about the forces that keep us stuck with cheaters — like the obvious sunk costs of shared history and children. But what about the cultural messages that encourage you to stay with a cheater? What current were you swimming against when you left?
TGIF!
I’ve said this before, but I got ALL of the messages when I left my first cheating husband back in 1981.
My mother said, “You’ve made your bed and now you have to lie in it.” She was very cold and judgemental, as was her habit. My father was a cheater.
My father said, “It’s no big deal. Everyone cheats. Men have needs. You’ve just got to get over it.”
Grandma said, “A divorce is a sin against God.”
My therapist (marriage counseling, but the cheater wouldn’t go) said, “Marriage is a commitment. You need to figure out what you’re doing wrong and fix it so he won’t have to cheat.”
My pastor said, “Marriage is a sacrament. You need to work on yourself so he won’t have to go outside the marriage to get what he needs.”
Things have changed somewhat in the last 43 years, but not as much as you might hope.
Yes, not as much.
My ex was an addict with documented mental health problems. He had moved to another state to live like we didn’t exist.
And it was all on ME to save the marriage. Strongly patriarchal people told me that, too, which put me in power over my husband. I knew that was wrong. No, it’s on HIM, and maybe I don’t want him anymore because he’s never going to own up and do the right thing.
Thankfully, I put it together and backed off from the naysayers.
“His problems are everybody’s but his”. Sigh. I continue to simply adore the “took vows and there’s an ACTUAL COMMANDMENT about adultery but THE VICTIM IS THE PROBLEM” industrial complex. Such misogyny!
Oh, it’s not just misogyny. Us guy chumps get it, too. Why are you bitter? Why don’t you just forgive and move on? What did you do to make her leave? It’s across the sexual spectrum. If you were fucked over by a partner or spouse, there must be something wrong w/YOU. Because nobody wants to believe that anybody can be a victim. Definitely not the people adhering to and/or spouting this stuff.🙄
I second this, there is a different kind of attack for male chumps. It’s more of of the “you must not be much of a man if she was with someone else” from men and women. The similarity is that it was due to the chump’s inadequacies.
I hear you, brother. And I agree. Part of my healing journey has been setting better boundaries. And that has included a general purge of people that victim blame.
For better or for worse I was alienated from church when I was much younger so I am fortunate in that regard. There are other places to find community. This is currently my favorite!
Misogyny is right. It underpins just about everything JeffWashington. Talk about victim blaming. If women ever realize their true power and take it then it will be the end of male domination. One can dream.
Sigh.. I’m a tall, white, male. I got exactly the same messages.
My individual counsellor wanted to discover what needs I didn’t meet. Our marriage counsellor was concerned that I’d let other people know about the affair. Didn’t I realize that this would make reconciliation harder on my cheating wife?
My brother shrugged it off as “every marriage has rough spots”.
At least the messaging is consistent.
THIS. So sorry for you, like everyone here, male, female, or anyone on the sexual spectrum, having to deal w/this shit.🫤 Peace to you and for all of us chumps.
These are outrageous! ugh!!!
“It’s no big deal. Everyone steals. They needed your wallet. You’ve just got to get over it.”
If it’s re-labeled as a “need,” that makes it a-ok? No.
I can’t “like” this comment enough! Thanks, FYI.
Family and clergy are probably the worst advice you can get from what I’ve seen.
A lot of marriage counselors are total quacks and unscrupulous.
We have to consider the goal. The goal of marriage counselors and ministers is to keep marriages together – even just on the surface. It’s not about saving the individuals trapped in the marital landslide….it’s about saving the landslide. What we need are NOT marriage counselors but divorce counselors who help people to navigate this painful process as successfully as possible and hopefully with as much equity as possible especially for the betrayed and abused spouse.
You see a lot jump into marriage counseling hoping they can fix the problem. From what I’ve seen it’s a weak move. Most just can’t make decisions.
Understandable because they are in shock.
The more I look at the counselor I went to my FW with AFTER D-Day, the more I realize dude was just trying to make his billable(while I admire the hustle it’s unethical as all hell-“fraud waste and abuse” and all of that.) Granted the relationship and attached friendship were beyond repair at that point anyway.
I think if it’s family they have to have been cheated on themselves-and even then you should have a third party with no skin in the game to be your tie breaker. I imagine a lot of the time they would just rather not have to deal with the drama, particularly if their version of problem solving is “come back when you’re over it.”
I think RIC really, truly is an industrial complex but just part of a larger one. Of the five or so unbelievably crappy RIC type therapists I got dragged to and rejected following D-day, all but one worked in some kind of network owned by private equity firms which, according to a recent JAMA article, currently control up to 25% of all mental and behavioral health facilities in most states.
I have to imagine private equity also has its grubby paws in mental and behavior health publishing as well as CME and even academic programs. I think there’s an argument to be made that ethos will typically follow the money so, if you believe These are the Plunderers author Gretchen Morgenson, it would hardly be a surprise if couples counselors working within private equity-owned practices perfectly reflect the mercenary, cheating, evil, deceptive, destructive, bully-favoring, victim-blaming scourge that private equity has become to healthcare in general. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yavf6vYg5Nc
The private equity firms own the jails too. Sounds like a vested interest to me!
“There is no money in the cure.”
Family is not born. Family is made.
The Chris Rock rant, lol. “There’s no money in the cure. There’s money in the medicine– on the comeback.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRN3d5S_MTk
Chris Rock deserted his wife and daughters, I think. (I know! I used to love him too!)
I actually despised him from the time he made a “joke” in 1996 when he said “I understand” OJ because I was in the middle of prosecuting a workplace stalker in the same industry. It hit me right in the kidneys because this was long before so-called “cancel culture” and there was barely an outcry about his remarks. Not fucking helpful. Later I briefly gave him a pass when he changed tracks and was hitting a redemptive political note (including his pharma rant in 2009). But the Oscars jibe at Jada Pinkett Smith wasn’t his first creepy backslide since he dumped his family. It just looked like a return to factory setting. Consequently, when black feminists said Smith should have punched Rock harder, I “understood” (to quote Rock himself).
Anyway, the pharma rant was still “brave” at the time. I think that phase was all the current college generation knew of him and it’s probably why young people were so disappointed and turned off last year when he, Seinfeld and Chapelle started whining about “woke” culture “ruining comedy” and channeling everyone’s tired old bigoted uncle at Thanksgiving.
I so agree! I had a terrible experience with a marriage counsellor that I complained to her professional association about. She completely sided with my ex while he denied doing anything to upset our marriage. She accused me of not believing he was trying. He’s screwing someone else, but yeah truly he’s trying. Good gawd, I had to walk out of that session & never go back. Poor anyone else that felt they had to endure that quack!
They are not Gods but think they are.
I think it’s partly the healthcare system itself. I’ve noticed that doctors and mental health practitioners in certain countries with genuinely free universal healthcare (the UK no longer counts since it’s rapidly privatizing) can have a markedly different attitude, probably because there was never a promise of vast riches and people enter healthcare for different reasons.
Because I have kids with very complex autoimmune issues and multiple allergies (including to drugs) that can sometimes manifest with behavior, I always felt like a hostage to the shitty US system. I was used to doctors in the US acting “threatened” and becoming downright punitive if I knew more than they did about my kids’ conditions or advancements in treatment models– which wasn’t hard since most of these grease monkeys hadn’t read a book in the twenty years since they’d graduated and the only CME courses they attend are sponsored by pharma and the medical device industry as are entire teaching hospitals and medical publishing.
Eventually I learned to dread every medical encounter. This is why I was initially shocked at the huge difference in the behavior of doctors and medical personnel during an extended stay in a country with universal healthcare. It wasn’t just that the latter were generally warmer and humbler and took more time but that I didn’t have to play the bimbo and pretend I didn’t know anything about my children’s issues to salve their egos. They welcomed anything I could add and, furthermore, often blessedly knew more than I did for once. The first time I experienced this I nearly burst into tears of relief. Eventually I got used to it and noticed how some of our medical appointments ran way over time since doctors in this country seem to love chatting away about theories and treatment advancements. I was in the office of my son’s dermatologist for almost an hour because he got all wide-eyed with excitement when I mentioned an obscure theory about the effects of “metalloestrogens” on hormonal acne. He’d read everything he could get his hands on and was following investigations into whether professional detoxification could help patients, etc. When I started to discuss diet, he went off on a wonderful tangent about the hormone disrupting effects of pesticides.
You’re never going to hear a doctor in a US hospital system sponsored by, say, Bayer Crop Science advising patients to avoid pesticides or using diet rather than on-patent drugs as treatment. I think most people in the US would faint with surprise if a doctor behaved this way but it’s actually quite a normal experience for us now. The kids have one lone specialist MD in the US (originally from Italy) who’s like this. When we see him, he loves hearing about our alternative experiences and can go on and on about how organized medicine is bottoming out in the US because the mercenary aspect of it chases out anyone who’s in it for genuine reasons.
I was conditioned via women’s magazines “be the woman he desires so he doesn’t stray”; “how to save your marriage”, “how to do it all: a wife, mother, career woman & be great at it” articles. Did my ex ever read any relationship articles? Did his male magazines contain any articles that asked him to do any emotional lifting or caretaking of a marriage? Not at all. His magazine focused on sex articles only “how to please her”. That’s great & all, but men have to bring more than sex skills to nurture a relationship. My parent’s marriages, the marriages around me, movies, books, etc. were all the same message: women are to caretake & do the emotional labour; while men sit back & enjoy this, but then call women “nags” or accuse them of “nagging” when women get fed up of it. I’m Gen X though, so maybe cultural messages are different for the other generations.
I don’t think magazines are as popular as they once were with all the social media now. I think most of its on phones or sites like TikTok. From what I can see the focus has moved on from “Can this Marriage Be Saved?” type bullshit to “What the Hell is Wrong with You if You’re Not Cheating!” “Cheat and Lose Weight!” – it’s all about actively encouraging cheating and acceptance of it…..not necessarily the old self improvement bullshit. It’s the…EVERYBODY’S DOING IT bullshit now. Bottom line, our system encourages and promotes infidelity because (IMO) they want to weaken families in favor of the government. Families are the only real rivals any government has – even church frequently works with whatever govt is in charge. Your loyalty to your family and perhaps your community (which used to have a lot of your extended family in it) used to be what drove people.
Oh, I remember the women’s magazines. I grew up reading my mother’s “Ladies Home Journal, which had a regular column entitled “Can This Marriage Be Saved?” If you believed what was in those columns, *every* marriage could be saved because everyone was kind, reasonable and had basically good intentions toward their spouse. Despite the fact that I grew up with personality disordered parents and a personality disordered sibling, I clung to that belief that every marriage could be saved. Even the column where the husband was beating his wife every time she disagreed with him. (Or some such. The details are murky after more than half a century.). The therapist “explained” to him that that wasn’t OK. “So,” the husband asked, “When is it acceptable to beat your wife?” And when the therapist told him “never,” he said “OK,” and he never beat his wife again. Marriage saved! So when my second cheater started to throw things at me, shove me, etc. I explained to him that wasn’t OK, and it hurt me. Guess how much effect that had on his behavior? About as much as when I explained to the first cheater that his screwing other people wasn’t OK, and that it hurt me. None.
Well…..when you stop objecting to being beaten, cursed at, abused, etc., the marriage has been saved.
Oh my gosh! I remember reading ‘Can This Marriage Be Saved’ in the magazine every single month. What a load of hogwash. In the magazine, they always could be saved!
cheaters don’t give two shits about their marriage, if they did they would have tried to save it, before nuking the marriage. Decent folks would leave a marriage before finding the replacement.
They usually just take their marriage for granted, like an old dog. Old dog isn’t going anywhere he’s just gonna do what he does and you can go out and fondle new dog and plan for a replacement maybe. Or maybe you just want both, old and new dog, and you don’t see the problem in it. After all, old dog got a good run, got plenty of kibbles and a nice rug to lay on, now new dog is all shiny and cuddly….got more bounce in it. They just take it all for granted – many can’t even imagine spouse appliance getting up and walking away because…well, that’s why you have them welded to the floor.
True. I think even if they are planning their exit for greener pastures, they still think the appliance will be waiting if things don’t work out.
I know my ex did a mini freak out when he found out I had a date, even stalked my date by driving by his apartment. I don’t think it had anything to do with wanting me back, but to keep me in reserve just in case.
Not sure what he was thinking or why. I was a reasonably attractive 40 year old woman who worked for DoD. What are the odds I met someone suitable for me, well pretty high.
From the other side of the cultural/political aisle of the church, I was absorbing the message that my feelings of hurt and resentment were actually immature and unevolved jealousy and ego – “it’s just sex, get over it.” I got this from the phd program eurotrash that we were constantly around.
To me, the obvious retort to that is….is that all our sex life was to you? Just sex? Is that all our physical interactions were to you for years? Just sex? Of course, it’s not just sex, sex involved a whole range of complex emotions and interactions, but that’s my retort. “But it was different with YOU, honey, I LURVES you!” And how do you prove that? Why I come home every night like the neighborhood tom cat! If that’s ALL you want sex to be, just satisfaction of a physical act like eating a hamburger….that’s all it’s gonna be. Most of us would like something else too, maybe a pickle or some onions.
Yeah, I heard that, “it’s just sex — everyone lies about sex” when Clinton was running for president. I should have paid more attention I heard that a lot from him during the Obama administration.
Especially considering how absolutely dismal and sad the Clinton marriage actually is. .Not a political statement, btw, but just….it is what it is. Most political marriages are very sad and bitter traps.
From the counseling world: “Emotional affairs are just symptoms of issues in your marriage.” In other words, “Dance, Chump, DANCE!!!”
There’s that great line from When Harry Met Sally: “Oh yeah? Well that ‘symptom’ is f***ing my wife!”
Yup-Symptoms of disease. Curably only with removal.
Most people understood why I was leaving FW, who admitted to 30 years of cheating. But I was blindsided by my brother who said “Think of what a good family you have before you do anything rash”. Um…excuse me? I have sons. Should I be teaching them that women should eat shit sandwiches and suck it up for the sake of “the family”? Or should I show them that strong women don’t take any shit? I’m gonna vote for the latter. It’s now three years later and my boys and I are very close and they both understand why I kicked him out.
If they’re shitty spouses, they usually are shitty parents too. Look at the model cheaters provide for their kids, and what is it like when they abandon the WHOLE FAMILY for some new person, possibly his or her kids or create a new family with them. You can’t pretend that a post divorce family with the limited time, attention and INTEREST, the departing spouse has, is the same as an intact family where all the energy goes INTO that family, it’s not the same thing. And it’s all on the cheater.
Religious trigger warning.
On my D-day when I suddenly discovered years of infidelity, I left immediately. However, for 30 plus years before that, I was miserable in my marriage but stayed because of religious cultural messages. Starting with conservative lectures “just for coeds” in my 1970s-1980s style “Christian campus ministries”, followed by “women’s bible study” in churches in the 1990s and 2000s, I became properly indoctrinated in a worldview that completely allows for all kinds of domestic violence in marriage to be accepted and/ or hushed.
Without writing a lengthy essay about the affect of the 1980s-1990s conservative movement (which I may eventually), I’ll say that I and many in my generation were set up in Evangelical Christianity to accept abuse in marriage as an inevitable part of the Christian life.
Of course when we were so young in those days, college students, very young wives and mothers, we did not realize that what we were being taught was directly related to domestic abuse. We were essentially taught, along with heavy training in submission and silence (I am not exaggerating), we were to accept “suffering” as not only a part of the Christian life, but our response of “piety” (gracefully smiling through the suffering, taking it submissively) was actually a path to holiness. I’m trying to describe the “piety” movement. Can I name names? An Excellent Wife by Martha Peace, I recall as affecting myself and all my girlfriends back then (late 1990s). Then we had John Piper counseling a woman to “endure abuse for a season”. Those are just two examples. Ahh those we heady decades. I’m so new to “new thinking” about all this, that I did not leave my marriage until I discovered my eX husband’s infidelity. Because as recently as 2022, I did not think that I had a “right” to leave my marriage at all, unless I was being physically beaten or cheated on sexually.
I’m a “Done” now (Sociologially speaking), still recovering and trying to learn about DV, about abuse, coercive control, angry and controlling men, male entitlement (related to DV), and how those religious- cultural lies hurt myself and many women in my generation. And most importantly, I’m learning how God never intended or required that I or my fellow women should have been treated with contempt, sexual abuse, subjugation, devaluing, neglect, dismissal, and disrespect, simply because we were married Christian women.
I’m so sorry you experienced this, and I’m so so glad you’re free now. I live in the area where John Piper pastored, and the church I wrote about in my comment was not a directly connected, but was very much impacted by his teaching. In addition to Chump Lady and Divorce Minister, I found Natalie Hoffman (Flying Free) to be really helpful. Her podcast helped me process and reframe a lot of things.
It’s amazing how the men were never taught to “suffer” in all that glorious religious haze.
Wow. This is a long term brainwashing plan aimed at women!
One day after my sex addict( OK sex coping ) now XHC told me that my body belonged to him and I should do what he says. I heard a voice in my mind from out of my Bible days that said, my body was a temple and a treasure and I belonged to God first and then to a Godly husband second. Another verse said I was bought with a price and my addicted and disturbed husband had not paid for me as he was now paying others. That was all the scripture I needed to file. I recognized i was indeed loved by not by this animal who called himself my husband. The Bible set me free..it is used by others as bondage. So sad
As far as “belongings” go, I’m sure he was taking better care of his car than you.
Guess he never heard of the 13th Amendment!
Wait !! I belonged to me too!!!
Totally, Victoria! This is my story, too. It’s taken plenty of time to wake up to this and learn “how God never intended or required that I or my fellow women should have been treated with contempt, sexual abuse, subjugation, devaluing, neglect, dismissal, and disrespect, simply because we were married Christian women.”
I’m SO glad the narrative is slowly starting to change in Christian circles, thanks to heroines like Tracy, Natalie Hoffman (Flying Free), Leslie Vernick (Conquer) Gretchen Baskerville (Life-Saving Divorce), Sheila W. Gregoire (Bare Marriage), Sarah McDugal (Wilderness to Wild), and Anne Blythe (Betrayal Trauma Recovery).
Also, those PhD professionals who are getting good info out there about the impacts of being in a relationship with someone who’s narcissistic are very much appreciated by me, too.
We MUST start with encouraging the dignity and wellbeing of each person in a committed relationship, and not worship the institution of marriage. Especially in a narcissistic age like we’re in.
For sure, besides Chump Lady & Tell Me How You’re Mighty, listening to & reading ALL of these authors/ podcasters you mentioned, (plus also Lundy Bancroft and Omar Minwalla), has helped a great deal. So much YES to your last sentence.
This all rings a bell, Viktoria. Very much my experience growing up as well. The “accepting suffering” as part of the Christian life, extending mercy and forgiveness over and over and over, and so much more has done much damage to so many in the church.
I’m so sorry you went through all of that, and that you suffered with it for so long. ((((Hugs!))))
Basically, I had other Christians tell me that the Bible says divorce is wrong.
Obviously Divorce Minister has written extensively on what the Bible says. But the “God hates divorce” crew are really oversimplifying what the Bible says. The passages that would seem to provide very strong “anti-divorce” sentiments aren’t about sticking with your spouse regardless of the circumstances. They’re especially not about being a woman and sticking with your husband regardless of whether he’s starving you or cheating on you; in other passages, the Bible arguably allows for divorce in both of these circumstances. The passages in question are rather about misbehaving men who were getting rid of their wives willy-nilly. Even the famous “God hates divorce” passage in Malachi is likely a mistranslation. In context, that passage is also about misbehaving men who are causing divorce with unfaithfulness to their wives.
There’s really nothing in the Bible that says you have to stick things out with an adulterous, misbehaving spouse. I believe this is true for both sexes, but especially if you are a woman.
The Bible says literally that divorce is the only acceptable reason for divorce – and that it IS allowed. The Bible posits that the basic element of marriage is the physical union of a man and woman and when you cheat….it breaks the most basic marriage bond. I personally agree with this. Jesus himself said to the woman taken in adultery “Go forth and sin no more.” He didn’t say, hey it’s okay, go forgive yourself or even I forgive you. Go forth and sin no more. I don’t think the Religious Industrial Complex says that to its cheaters.
I suspect there are a lot of questionable translations in the Bible.
I agree there there is nothing in the Bible that says that you have to stick things out. Though St Paul does say that you shouldn’t divorce, the context changes when he says, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances.” Since I was the only one believing in the sanctity of the marriage vows (the fuckwit obviously was not), then it became necessary on my part to let him leave. When I was getting divorced, I had two wonderful evangelical pastors and a Catholic priest that came to my aid. Though they didn’t sanction divorce, they all told me that my situation would not change. They did not tell me not to get a divorce. It was obvious to me that the decision was mine. However, all three made it known that I would not be seen as doing wrong were I to get a divorce. I’m very sorry for those here that were told else wise from their religious pastors. Like everyone everywhere, not all are informed with what the Bible actually says, and it’s very probable that even if they are, it doesn’t fit their personal narrative and so they will misquote the Bible to further their own ends.
Yes, the conservative church, in general, idolizes marriage and downplays the safety and happiness of women. I see so many of the books and seminars being oriented towards enabling men and blaming women versus encouraging genuine partnerships and care for one another.
But the average churchgoer in the U.S. is a married, middle-class couple. They value people like themselves and view divorced people as “out” spiritually, even if they don’t say that explicitly. I certainly encountered that during my separation and divorce. It was like I couldn’t possibly be close to God and headed for divorce. Well, I was and still am.
I was shocked when I finally dug into the infamous Malachi chapter and saw that it was focused on men who were evil on many fronts, divorce just being one of them. And besides, God divorced Israel in Jeremiah 3. It had to be because they were faithless. No one in conservative circles talks about that, though.
I still go to church for complex reasons, but that’s not my spiritual home at this point. I’m very active in local ministry and two Bible studies (one online) outside of my church. That’s where my people are, and they are very diverse and vibrant in their faith.
It is for me a beautiful thing to be free of my cheater and to speak out as much as I can when anyone in church asks me what happened to my 30 year marriage. I don’t get shamed and I use alot of CL words and rationale and Bible verses. People leave with their mouths hanging open. I spare them nothing. I refuse to be silent
Same here although sometimes I just excuse myself and choose not to engage. Sometimes I just want my peace. They should know better. It’s a small church, and the elders were very vocal that they agreed with the divorce and to come to them with questions, not me. He left nearly seven years ago.
But years later? I still get the, “How is X doing? I really miss his preaching.” I have no idea how he is doing. The divorce was ugly and my life was in danger, so I am not at all in contact. Yes, I’m that blunt.
But what about visiting preachers and missionaries? They all know his family if not him from years ago. We have a visiting preacher Sunday who was a family friend on my ex’s side last I knew. My ex and I knew him when he was just getting started. We’ll see. I’m so used to the odd and invasive questions that nothing bothers me now. I warned my oldest because he still goes to church with me. He’s used to it too.
I agree that there’s a lot of prejudice against divorced couples in American Christianity. I’m glad you were able to find ways to keep participating in spite of this, Elsie.
For the record, I’m now on the preaching team at my church, and our assistant pastor is also divorced and remarried. I do hope things are beginning to change. (My denomination is Evangelical Covenant Church.)
“But the average churchgoer in the U.S. is a married, middle-class couple. They value people like themselves and view divorced people as ‘out’ spiritually, even if they don’t say that explicitly.” Agreed.
“Divorce is wrong”. That’s hilarious. There’s also a part of the Bible that quite literally says “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” There’s also something in there about “not bearing false witness” or “coveting thy neighbor’s ass.”
Same paragraph if I recall correctly.
The fuckwits and their co-conspirators must’ve missed Sunday school and the Charlton Heston movie.
When he called to say he wanted a divorce, my ex gave me the talk about how I’d have to explain myself to God for why I was refusing to reconcile. At that point, I had uncovered enough to know that my STBX had way more to explain than I did, but I didn’t want to discuss that. “Yes, I accept that,” was enough.
I’ve shared here before that he showed up not long ago at a family wedding with his latest lady love and caused quite a stir. They remain a family where divorce is unheard of, and there was my ex and his woman, who has been divorced several times and doesn’t fit the family norm in other ways. I felt quite meh about it, but the family was upset. OK, not my committee.
I get it, but their response would be “it doesn’t say you have to divorce your spouse in the event of adultery.” They’re usually not arguing that adultery is okay, just that divorce is not the correct remedy for it.
In the Law of Moses, the penalty for adultery was death, so of course there’s no discussion of divorcing your spouse in the wake of adultery there.
By Jesus’s ministry, the Jews were under Roman rule and required Roman approval for capital punishment sentences, and execution for adultery was pretty rare. That is why Jesus adds an exception for adultery to his teachings against divorce (Matt. 5:32, 19:9). The possibility of having to stick it out with an adulterous spouse actually existed by his day and age, so he nixed it.
They try to get around Jesus’s words with their bad translation of Mal. 2:16. Doesn’t work very well, IMO, but they’re often working in sound bites and bumper sticker doctrine, not careful analysis of what the texts in question say.
Malachi 2:16 started first being mistranslated in 1611, in the King James version. Only in the past few years have some translations corrected it to closer to the original, that God hates those men who treat their wives badly and divorce them just to marry a young foreigner. Basically adulterers in their hearts but ones who were trying to work the system.
So the bad messaging among Bible readers has been circulating for over 400 years!
Sorry, I got my own wording wrong. 🙂 From what I’ve read, closer translations to the original don’t say that “God hates those men” like I mistakenly wrote above, but rather are more like the NIV “The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the Lord Almighty.”
Essentially I think it’s saying that the practice of contemptuously discarding the wife of the man’s youth in order to marry someone new and young is not OK with God.
Brava!
I got a lot of flack from my mother about my ex cheating on me. Things she’s said about it are: It’s embarrasing that I’m now a single mother due to a cheating spouse, so I’m not allowed to talk about it/tell her friends because they will feel awkward. It’s my fault that the ex continued cheating on me, and if I’d only done/said the right things he would stop and realize all the pain he caused.
From the media (and ex friends) I learned that Affairs are So Romantic, and the cheaters should be put together at all costs. They also taught me that the one being cheated/the family being hurt is not important and should not be seen unless they’re OK with the cheater and his sidepiece.
Your MOM criticized YOU because your ex cheated???? Words fail me.
That’s only a small portion of my mother’s criticisms, and I can honestly say I married my childhood sweetheart (the cheating ex) to get away from my controlling mother.
The whole summer of 2022 was awful. The ex walked out on me, was found at his whore’s house, then ending up in a mental health hospital for over 2 months because “he wanted to die”- right as my father was entering hospice care and was actually dying. I got to hear from mom how incovenenient my ex’s cheating was for her because “If he didn’t cheat/leave you at this time your father’s dying days would have been easier.” She yelled at me that she had it worse off because “My (her) husband is dead, at least yours is still alive!” I’m still in therapy from how bad that time was.
I think my messages were more implicit than explicit. During the Pick Me Dance Heat Death phase of the relationship there were times where I wanted her gone-generally the people in my life would remind me of how much I had put into the relationship but were otherwise generally supportive of “whatever will make you happy.”
I look up to my father a lot. He stayed with my mother who cheated on him multiple times. Stiff upper lip and all of that. It wasn’t until after she finally left that he confided that he wanted to leave but was afraid of what that would be like, didn’t have the courage, the stigma, etc. He has declined my advice to come here to this point. I do relay what I learn here during our frequent chats.
I think I learned the whole “weather the storm and conditions will improve” from him. Along with “relationships and love mean sacrifice.” All in all I don’t think it was necessarily bad advice (relationships DO require work) and role modeling on that point-both he and I permit it to be far too toxic for our own sanity and wellbeing. It’s like the therapy I provide at work-“if you are working harder at it than they are you are doing it wrong.”
Have a Fuckwit Free Friday!
Fear of the unknown is a weakness or maybe an excuse to stay. Most people will avoid making a decision.
Some us kids. Any excuse will do.
“Pick Me Dance Heat Death phase” 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
The cultural messages I received growing up were via a protestant Christian family deep in the bible belt of the US. Both sets of my grandparents were only ever married to each other, both over 50 years. My parents have been married over 55 years now. Of my six sets of aunts/uncles, only one divorced. Growing up in the 80s, I recall the narrative around divorce in the church starting to shift in a more positive direction, but remember sensing that divorcees were outliers.
Maybe because of growing up with so many long-term marriages around me, I simply expected the same for myself. I’ve always thought there was something pretty beautiful about committing to be someone’s friend/partner through all of life’s ups and downs. I liked the guy I married. I enjoyed being around him. He seemed to feel the same about me.
When the news broke that he had been sexing up my friend for years, I think everyone would have supported me in divorcing him. But of course, they were all heartbroken too. They loved him too. They – my parents, siblings, friends, neighbors – wanted the family I had with him to remain intact, just as I did. No one said this overtly, but I sensed it.
I was curious if reconciliation was possible. I tried to reconcile for three years. I think some of the most damaging cultural messages came during that time. A couple people congratulated me for doing the work of staying married, and mentioned that my ex-friend/AP and her chump husband had taken “the easy way out” by divorcing. NO. Chump husband wanted a life with her and their children. She betrayed him, deceived him, ultimately left him. He did not take the easy way out.
One therapist wanted to know how I had contributed to conflict in our marriage. We had this discussion with my then-husband in the session. My husb had had an affair with my friend for two years, and this therapist wanted to know how I had contributed to our marital conflict. I said, “I yell sometimes?” Then there was a conversation about how both ex and I needed to change some things about ourselves. I remember confronting the therapist about it. Why are we discussing my occasional yelling and his TWO-YEAR AFFAIR in the same sentence?? Insanity. I read back through my journals during those years of attempted reconciliation and feel so much compassion for me, trying so hard.
I’ve seen so many therapists over the last five years. I’m guessing they were attempting to follow my lead. I was in their office, with my husb, seeking guidance about how to reconcile. So it makes sense that they were prompting discussions about ways to do so. I wish just one of them would have pulled me aside privately, and said “I know you think you want this marriage, but it will never be the same. I implore you to leave.”
Two years after I discovered that my FW was living with another woman in Las Vegas, I was trying to navigate a very shaky wreckconciliation. I was the ultimate chump, but for a variety of reasons I was terrified to leave. One day, I was talking with my mother, who knew the whole story. She said, a propos of nothing, “I love [FW].” I said, “WHAT? You love him? If someone had done to [my daughter] what [FW] did to me, I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire. And you say you love him?” Her response? “He’s just got such a nice… way about him.” It’s 7 years later now, and he dumped me for yet another AP, who he married 36 hours after our divorce was final. I went NC with him AND my mother. My life is much more peaceful now.
You have real strength, I admire you. It’s hard enough to leave an FW but to recognize that a family member, especially a parent is toxic and needs to be avoided, that takes real strength and courage.
I’ve always been icked out by adult women who are prone to what is called “limerence” (schoolgirl crushes) or just go all a-flutter over random men, particularly when they have evidence that the objects of their fluttering hearts are known shitheads. They always remind me of Miss Prissy from the old Foghorn Leghorn cartoons. But the effects of this might not be so funny such as in your situation or, say, two marmish, 60-something RIC therapists I got dragged to after D-day who looked like they were going to masturbate over FW.
I just don’t get it when grown ass adults get carried away like this. I’ve known since 7th grade not to trust my crushes or mistake them for actual love, either because they wouldn’t last more than a week and I’d end up misleading some poor kid or because those feelings are never based on anything real and the targets can end up being major jerks.
Good for you! 👏
I had to go NC with my mother for a year, until she finally apologized for talking FW’s side and being angry with me for wanting to leave. She, too, would not stop praising FW. When I went NC with her she did it to my daughter, who stopped visiting her because of the relentless pressure to forgive FW.
A few years later, I found out only after she died that she had been trash talking and blaming me behind my back. Since I don’t know exactly who she said that crap too, I stay away from extended family members she was close to.
Her first words after I told her about FW were not words of sympathy, they were; “But we count on you to be the stable one in the family!” Unbelievable. Now all the good memories I have of her are tainted with the knowledge that, like FW, she didn’t really love me. It wasn’t as if she was mean in general, as she would not have dreamed of treating my brothers (or anybody else on the planet) the way she treated me. I try not to think about it because it hurts so much.
My father didn’t cheat as far as I know, but he was extremely violent and abusive of my mother. Always drunk and raving and he used to physically beat her until her brothers beat the shit out of him. Then he stopped hitting her but everything else remained the same. As a CHILD, I used to urge her to leave him but she said he threatened to shoot us and she might have been right but I would have left anyway. You know who stuck up for him always and encouraged her to stay – HER MOTHER. Over and over again. She was a drunk too. Maybe they see something of themselves in the FW, they must. Why would you support someone who abused your child and grandchild unless you saw YOURSELF in them somehow?
My heart goes out to you. I know how much it hurts. I’m still working through it in therapy. One of the things I figured out was that the way my parents treated me was perfect prep for my FW. I grew up thinking abuse was love, disdain was affection, and lies were truth. It’s a very sick cycle. I wish I had gone NC with both my parents (my father is dead now) 30 years ago. I could have started healing that much sooner.
I was shamed and told I was controlling for not being “poly.” I was told I was hurting feminists everywhere by not sleeping with multiple people. And I was shamed for being queer and monogamous. Ironic thing is the goalposts were swapped when I FINALLY gave in after YEARS and joined a polyamorous relationship with her, but she STILL cheated on me and made accusations that I was controlling/cheating on her/etc.
The polyamorous thing is usually bullshit as you alas, found out. They do this stuff as cover for themselves and to put the pressure on chumps, but they never follow the rules that are laid down, they cheat anyway because they like to cheat, they are better than the rules, The rules never apply to their exalted selves and they always have an excuse.
Well, I got the “you need to see your part in this” from my therapist.
I also got from one of our adult sons…”I just want my family back, my family to stay together.” Let’s guilt the chump and put it all on her shoulders to bear the burden of reconciliation for something she DIDN’T choose and was unaware was even happening. And she DIDN’T choose to be abused in every way, either.
He is a good kid and was just in shock, I think, didn’t know exactly what to say. I have to say in his defense, a few days later he said he loved me and just wanted me to be happy and would support and help me however he could. Could have also been our oldest son who maybe said something to him, a brotherly correction, possibly.
Like your son, I, too, just wanted my family back. That’s why I chose– let me state that again, I CHOSE to believe a liar and a cheater because I had 30 years invested and three children with that dick. However, when the fuckwit once again proved he was still a liar and a cheater, I chose to finally step away. Your son was young and really did just want his family back. His old life was going to change and he had no way to make it stop. I’m sure he was confused as all hell and he had no idea how to react. Shoot! I was an adult and I felt like I was hit upside the head with a two-by-four. Your son loved both his mom and his dad and wanted the pain to stop. I’m glad he was able to come forward and tell you that he just wanted your happiness.
Thought provoking question. I wonder what did make me stay with a cheater. I always thought that any cheating would automatically mean I would walk out. But on D-Day #1 I looked at my life, my son, my finances and decided to try harder. I had held the relationship together for 11 years, so surely I could overcome this too.
If I had told anyone about D-Day #1 then they would have told me to walk away. Thats why I didn’t tell anyone. I didn’t want to be a failure. Somehow I had learned that divorce meant failure. It’s not something I was ever told, but I learned it anyway.
I got a lot of messages to stay with a selfish idiot, but not once he cheated. That freed me finally from the fuckwittery because it made it visible. It probably freed those around me to tell me they actually thought there was something wrong with FW (“weird”, “dont know anything about him except he likes football”, “seems to own a lot of pairs of ripped jeans”).
My mother had a fit when I left FW #1 (the abusive, gaslighting law student) – “why would you leave him? He’s going to be a corporate lawyer and make lots of money!” Note that this is the same woman who, when she was visiting, tried to help him tie me up to have me committed [I managed to escape and hide out at a friend’s house]. This was precipitated by the time I finally snapped and answered one of his AP’s constant phone calls (he’d usually grab the phone before I could answer and go in the other room; this was back in the days of landlines) and yelled at her for a full 5 minutes. Not my proudest moment but I’d had just about enough.
My father used to drive my mother literally insane by his drinking rages and physical attacks (until her brothers beat him up and then he kept it verbal, but it was still immense rage). She would periodically be hospitalized for months at a time (and I would be placed with other families or an orphanage) because of HIS drinking until she started drinking in self defense to anesthetize herself. This continued until I became old enough to go to the psych hospital MYSELF and say that it was not her, it was HIM that needed to be committed. Her mother, my grandmothers, used to stick up for HIM. I have never understood this kind of behavior, I don’t understand this twisting of basic human decency and protection for the defenseless in favor of bullies and abusers.
Mehitable, that is terrible, I am so sorry, my goodness.
Thank you, CD. I’m sometimes amazed at what I survived, but it’s nothing compared to a lot of the stories I read here which to me, are actually worse. I see stories here that make me SO ANGRY for the poor chumps who went through them – glad I can’t actually become Bat Woman or there would be some ass whooping in Gotham tonight, LOL!!!!
Mehitable, I don’t want to fall into the trap of comparing whose story is worse and most deserving of sympathy, because everyone here deserves boundless compassion and sympathy, but yours is up there, friend. Definitely not “nothing”. So yes, you are an amazing survivor!
My mother told me my 1st cheater would never leave me because we were both virgins when we got married at age 21. When I told her my then -husband had an OW she almost went into shock. I think that was an old wives tale handed to her from past generations of women. I read the books she gave me on staying pure for your man..that was my training. But how many stay pure for your woman books were read to boys?. That one way street of purity for me, “anything you do is fine for thee.”kept me in my marriage as the crazy glue.Men didn’t want loose woman, I was told,..after they sow their wild oats, I was told..they wanted pure for themselves and had no respect for woman who slept around…so no hope of marriage. Who wants the cow when you can get the milk for free was another adage. That I as a woman was responsible for my marriage holding together failed me x2. When I told my girlfriend and her husband that I said NO to my husband( my last XH cheater )to allow him to have sex with me like I was a vending machine with no care for my heart and soul…my friends went mute! They both said to me( and this was last year). YOU CANT SAY NO, I NEVER SAID NO TO MY HUSBAND ( He’s standing their grinning) oh never!! Men must have sex on demand or who knows what youll drive him to do!! I asked..even when you are sick? My friend said, well I give it as a gift no matter how I feel. My friends husband standing there was a serial cheater who had” reformed.” My friend knew it.. I just thought to myself…that pick me dance is never over. So that it’s my fault no matter what especially if Sex is mentioned by any man as lacking on ANY WAY.Evertbody knows it.
If that were true it would make men less than dogs because even dogs understand the word “NO” and I think they understand why too.
Mehitable, you had me laughing so hard as I pictured a sweet dog looking up at me and hearing a No,listening and respecting it
I had never thought that my XHC respected me or my body or my wishes. It was heart breaking💔to realize I was not loved at all. Thank you for that reality check. In weak moments and when I see my children siding with their cheater dad. I realize the importance of my sanity and my reality that no one should be treated like a vending machine and that being on my own, caring for and loving myself and sharing a healthy exchange of affection and love for myself and others, us a higher ground for me to walk. Thank you for the laughter of your thoughts.
You’re welcome, sweetie! I think with the kids….no one really….really….understands until they’ve been through such a massive betrayal. When you’ve been through the heart break of it, the loss of it, the head games of it, the financial losses, the loss of your future, sometimes your home, the disruption of your kids lives…..until you’ve been through it, it’s hard for people to imagine. They make it seem better than it is because they so much want it to be.
How very sad for your friend. As you say, she’s a vending machine. In fact, she is a sperm deposit. Until she values herself, she will continue to be a Stepford wife. I think I may have been a Stepford wife to some degree. Had he not been cheating, I would have stayed married to a very selfish man trying (unsuccessfully) the rest of my life to make him happy. I’m very, very much happy that he forced my hand. I do my best to be a decent, loving person these days, but unlike before, I won’t allow someone to mold me into his/her version of what they want. I’m very comfortable losing people in my life that are unhappy that I won’t be as amenable in the past.
Amazon Chump, yes, if my hand had not been forced and torn off my two cheaters..I would still be doing the dance to try to please. It was in my DNA and took an Act of God to severe me from such ongoing abuse and devaluing. My mom stayed through horrific verbal abuse so it was standard communication. Why not me? But now I understand the chains that held me were Illusions that being coerced and belittled and used was the only love illusion I knew…… until my eyes opened and I saw that I was of value and a treasure and that God never required me to stay with someone who hurt me over and over again. I’m forever grateful they cheated and didn’t care at all. No sorry, No regrets just in my face as a lesson to dance more and jump higher. I’m so thankful I left the last cheater for the lessons my first one taught me. Even after 30 years, I fully honored myself and filed. It was a miracle my mother never got.
What I have said is, “What would you say if he and his accomplices had beaten the crap out of me with a baseball bat? Because that’s essentially what cheating on someone is.”
In six and a half years, every single person I have said that to has been rendered silent.
I will remember that …..pushed down stairs repeatedly or beaten with a bat. He and his acconplices!!! Wow!!
I’ll have to remember that one when I’m in a feisty mood!
Society told me that being married was better than being single. Fairy tales, teen magazines, Hallmark movies, community structures and gatherings all seemed to promote coupledom.
As a senior chump, I receive all the “have you saved enough for retirement?” articles and they don’t even discuss whether their calculations are for a single person. Presumably, more women my age will be alone as time goes on. I still resent having to indicate I’m divorced when I was a good wife for decades.
I do think stigma around divorce has lessened, but tolerance for cheating remains.
Step by step….I have often said to myself that both my cheaters died. The men I believed I had the men I thought loved me DIED. These other guys, These lying angry abusive guys were not the men i married. So I’m a widow. Most of us woman will ve alone if my nursing home visits ring true. ..so it’s the adjustment and the grieving and the social stigma that’s different. Neither one is much fun but most woman do out survive their men cheater or not. Maybe there will be cheater insurance some day?
That’s a great way of looking at it, and true in my mind. The man you married and who may have seemed okay or even great for some time….is not the same guy you ended up with on D Day. Maybe he changed or was unmasked but a lot of life involves people revealing themselves as situations occur and they evolve and what you saw was not what you married or expected. Those 2 guys died as surely as if a truck hit them.
I don’t think there was a time that my heart sunk deeper than when a family law lawyer with thirty years’ experience, having heard my story, when I told her that I did not interfere with my husband’s access to the children, stopped me dismissively and said sternly, “you must ENCOURAGE them to see their father”. In other words, I was expected by the courts to gaslight my children to preserve the appearance of an intact family unit,, never mind the children had experienced emotional and financial neglect and abandonment.. The family law courts here have never let me forget that they represent the traditional family unit, no matter what. If you find yourself alone, you are to blame and you and your children will not find reparation or justice. There’s no doubt in my mind that this arises from systemic misogyny. If you are a woman not in a traditional famlly, with a mommy and a daddy, you are immediately suspect and marginal, willy-nilly — even if it is the dad who has deserted his wife and kids! You are guilty until proven innocent, and the bar to being proven “innocent” is impossibly high (or should I say low): that you must have experienced tabloid-level, grotesque violence.
To me, this is the most important force , because it is not the opinion of one individual family member or friend, it represents universal social disapproval and lack of support in our very laws. It’s hard to realize that not only friends and family members may shun you, but you are considered an untrustworthy outcast and deviant by the courts.
Chumpty dumpty My daughter’s dad cheated for 3 years with a VICIOUS OW who enjoyed my pregnancy along with cheater. She could not have children. My baby was shared from the beginning every other weekend. Even MY DAUGHTER much prefers cheater and OW wiftress over me, after 36 years. It is the hardest S sandwich to choke down. She is visiting from Calif right now with my 3 beautiful grandchildren all under 4. Her cheater dad and wifetress get 6 days and the hotel is nearby him, and I get two days. He bribed her her whole life and treated her like a princess. I was the sane one. This !!this!! is the next generation..very hurtful…very!! It never stops. Still, I would have been in an asylum had he stayed. It is still worth it to show my daughter what strong looks like. She might need it someday….
Oh my goodness, that is terrible, I am truly deeply sorry. Keep showing your daughter your love and constancy and I agree that her eyes will open with maturity.
Our society supports and encourages adultery (and promiscuity in general) and then tries to cover it up with a big yellow happy face. There is much wickedness in our society and lying, cowardice, betrayal, cheating, thieving, are frequently looked upon as virtues and those who are the victims are considered weak and even hated if they fight back. People like Tracy are changing this, hopefully forever. But I think we have to recognize the great evil we are up against.
… and your children are property. Despite all the lip service paid to “putting the children’s interest first” from the court-adjacent RICs.
Once I found out about the actual cheating I did not feel much cultural pressure to stay. I had this idea that I would stay in my marriage unless I had one of the three “A’s”, adultery, addiction or abuse.
However, my marriage was always difficult, and I didn’t feel I could choose me. My parents had a lot of conflict throughout their marriage, I was raised In a religious home, though not a particularly strict or dogmatic one. But I did believe that marriage was for life unless there were extreme circumstances. My own daughter sometimes told me she wished I would divorce her father. He picked on her and I often had to defend her.
I was almost relieved to find out about the cheating because it gave me “permission” to leave. Luckily when I started doing internet searches about infidelity I did not encounter the RIC. I think I found sisterhood of support first, then read the work of Omar Minwalla and had some sessions with a coach who who was a survivor of infidelity, then luckily I found leave a cheater gain a life and started reading everything Chump Lady that I could find. Divorce Minister was also helpful.
I feel like I had to deprogram myself. Leaving my marriage was not a failure. It was a triumph. It took some work for me to get to that realization.
I was surely pulled into the “marriage is work” tripe and I was influenced by the few numbers of divorces in our families.
From a religious point of view, I had 2 polar opposite experiences:
The Deacon who knew much (but not all) of the abuse told me to save myself and get out. Other than his message, everything from my church was pro-wreckonsillyation. This included Christian/Catholic books, articles, tv shows, retreat offerings etc. The message the sounded was that prayer would change my abusive husband.
There were times when I even admitted to myself that scripture did NOT promise me a fixed cheater, quite the opposite, God gave Cheater free will and would not take it away.
I was able to publish an anonymous article in Catholic media arguing that adultery is abuse but I did it too soon in the experience and left too much room in my argument for wreckonsillyation…it was a mistake but still opened the door to the CN narrative.
I’m a day late here, but here are my offerings. I was handed and expected to complete a workbook that said the following infuriating things:
“I wanted to say ‘You poor dear, just pack up and leave your husband,’ but Biblically, I could not say this…”
“Write down three things you can do to demonstrate love and respect to your husband with your children watching… As you force yourself to do these things to God’s Glory, you will be lifted out of self-focus and self-pity.”
“Even your best girlfriend may need to be left in the dark as to your deep hurt.” (In a paragraph literally instructing to not tell anyone other than your pastor and maybe one other woman who is an elder in the church.)
“Discussing your husband’s sin in his absence without his permission is gossip. Gossip destroys relationships.”
And a list of things that were considered examples of a “godly response ” to a D Day. (I have not edited these except to remove names because that felt necessary)
“-Bringing [husband] a glass of ice tea only an hour after finding out.
-Sleeping in the same bed with him
-Respectfully asking [husband] to get help (biblical help, not counseling from a psychologist, Christian or otherwise).
-Asking David to confess his sin to Christian family members who would support him with their prayers.
-Holding his hand that day.
-Initiating sexual relations that same week”
And this is just chapters 1-3
Oooooh…..sounds like a good opportunity for a bonfire and s’mores. That would have been my use for that missive.
I hope you told them to f*** all the way off
I had discovered CL around this time, so I wrote a bunch of angry and sarcastic responses to the questions in the first chapter, presented it to the pastor, and said “I can’t continue working on this”
It was the last time I ever set foot there, actually.
Gotta wonder if pastor was a Jesus Cheater. It’s more common than we want to think.
Good for you!
I hope you’re now divorced and getting counseling from someone other than that particular church’s staff members. I think CL was what we all needed. I did not stumble onto CL until after my divorce. I was the one with all the screwed-up thoughts (not the pastors). I truly felt a failure. Coming here after my divorce helped me figure it all out. And as I said before, I fortunately had two wonderful evangelical pastors and a great priest that would have been pro-CL had they known about her. One of the pastors was counseling me and as an exercise, he told me to go home and write down 10 things about myself to show that I had value. So I started with my intelligence, my capabilities, my ability to cook for my family…, and then I stopped and wrote, “I have value because I’m a child of God.” And that’s why I have value. It had nothing to do with the fact that I was smart or any of the other reasons. And when I realized it, it didn’t even matter if I was or wasn’t smart or a good cook. It all boils down to the fact that someone loves me so much that He died for me. So when I went back to the pastor who gave me the exercise and told him of my conclusion, he said, “Congratulations. You figured it out the first time.”
I’m far removed from the situation now. The church actually booted me because I refused to reconcile with my “repentant” spouse, but it was one of those “you can’t fire me, I quit” moments, because I’d been gone for months at that point with no plan to return.
I’m glad you found a place of spiritual healing!
that was a good pastor!
“Discussing your husband’s sin in his absence without his permission is gossip. Gossip destroys relationships.””
Unadulterated bull shit for sure, et al.
I owe no loyalty to a man who discussed my faults and conspired with another person to destroy me.
I think even in my day before internet and the info we have available today, I would have had to hand that back and tell them to shove it up their ass.
I was so fortunate to have a preacher with a full understanding of faith and the bible. His advice to me after triage was “you need to get angry”. Didn’t take me long after that.
I owe no loyalty to the man who conspired against me …does a cheater gossip when they tell their lover how YOU with all your faults, drove them into their arms?
I just love us all. Tracy will remain my hero. What we have experienced only God knows, but to get free no matter the cost…we are on the other side.
My son was in elementary school when FW walked out on me. So most of my “friends” were really parents of kids my son hung out with from K thru 3rd grade. I remember one mom in particular getting in my face telling me that I needed to save my marriage “for our son” and not be “immature.” Never talked with her again. Many of the parents wanted to get as far away from me as possible like I was diseased. And piece by piece I would find out that several were going through the same and stuck.
Also my area is very culturally diverse — international… we live in the DC area where many of the families are embassy-related …. Diplomats, international government employees etc. so I found myself noticing how different cultures dealt with my situation. This is of topic but the kindest and most helpful ladies that stepped up were Hindu. One lady really embraced me and told me that I should get out of the marriage and focus on healing myself for my son. And she showed me amazing YouTube videos to follow to help me through. Forever grateful to her. And forever a friend.
Indian women are very strong people – no pushovers in that group. I’m not surprised they gave you such solid support. And I hate to say it as a Bible believer….I think part of that is they haven’t been brainwashed by the twisted bullshit a lot of the clergy and Jesus Cheaters push.