Are We Dating The Same Guy?
In the spirit of “Are We Dating the Same Guy?” sites, she wants to know if it’s okay to warn the next one about her cheating ex. She wishes someone would’ve warned her.
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Dear Chump Lady,
I found your site and have spent hours upon hours going over all the blog entries. Chaos Janitor is one of my fave expressions. It’s been one helluva shit sandwich and I’m done doing the pick me dance. Eff toxic Esther Perel. I’m done putting on tap shoes or pointe shoes or holding castanets or whirling like a dervish. Kaput. Finite. Done.
You have repeatedly said, “If it feels good, don’t do it.” when it comes to revenge efforts. Just become Meh. Good advice. I’ve appreciated the encouragement and advice to just turn and walk away.
In an old post you wrote about driving past your ex’s house and seeing the newest nubile of destiny pulling your old weeds and planting over your peonies. You didn’t stop, or wave, or scream out the window what a complete and utter cheating FW her man is. I think you should have.
If I were pulling the weeds and planting pansies, I would have listened.
Shortly before I married my complete FW many moons ago, I got a phone call from an acquaintance. I knew the woman, but she wasn’t the ex. I still dont know her relationship with Mr. FW, but her message was: “Don’t marry him.” Afterwards, I called her back to talk and get the 411 but she never picked up. I wish she would have.
I also had to have a sit down with the ex baby mama when she found out we were engaged. And yes, she was all drama. “He’s lazy. You’ll do all the work.” She was right and I knew I was going to be carrying a bigger load. I was told she was crazy. She was and still IS but I did believe her about his partial incompetence. However, she NEVER called him a cheater. The strange reason I think is because she didn’t know. She also didn’t want to be with him intimately anyways, so I don’t think she was paying attention. I wish she had paid attention because if she had said ‘cheater’, I would have definitely held off.
So this brings me to the new FB sites all over the country “Are we dating the same guy?” On one hand it’s giving all sorts of “I’m not ‘Meh’ yet, so I’m going to post about FW.” On the other, it’s a fantastic warning to others, which I would have really liked to have had for myself.
It seems it helps people avoid very toxic FWs.
So what’s your stance on posting FWs on these sites? Just keep driving by OR provide a public service?
Signed,
WIWIKE (What I Wish I Knew Earlier)
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Dear WIWIKE,
I’m all for telling. Just let go of the outcome. (More on that in a moment…) But I am especially in favor of doing your due diligence on anyone you’re dating, which is what the “Are we dating the same guy?” sites are: research.
These women are essentially alerting potential victims about known scammers. It’s basically fraud prevention. AARP does the same thing for older adults and robocallers.
Well, that’s a very cynical take on dating, Tracy.
Hello? Have you seen my mail?
I think a closed, moderated Facebook group where women compare dating profiles and have rules against doxxing is a very good thing indeed. This is very different than the cheater sites I warn about here. On those sites, they’re public and unvetted and created for the scam purpose of the cheater (real or imagined) to pay to scrub their profile. Yes, you could post your cheating ex. But the cheater, or their vengeful affair partner could post you. In either case, the scammer wins.
That’s not what “Are we dating the same guy?” sites do. They’re closed. It’s a private discussion. It’s non-profit. Hell-to-the-yeah, I love their mission.
Pros and cons of telling the next one
When it comes to decide on telling someone they’re dating a cheater, I’m generally inclined to tell. Especially if you’re the Other Woman and you want to tell the chump (regardless of your motivations.) It’s the golden rule — you’d want to know if it were you. Here are my caveats.
Don’t tell the Other Woman.
If she knows about you and thinks it will be different with her? Let Karma bite her. She knows he’s a cheater. There’s nothing to tell really. But, but! She doesn’t know about his secret sugar daddy account! Or the goat kink! Or the credit card debt! She can enjoy those discoveries on her own. Also, she’s bought into some smear campaign that your inadequacies drove him to it. She has no inadequacies, and her pick me is on point. Yeah, best of luck.
Don’t tell if the person is dangerous.
I didn’t tell the new girlfriend appliance she was doing yard work for a cheater, because I’d had multiple protection from abuse orders on that guy. The no contact goes both ways. I didn’t want to poke the bear. I even tell OW this, if you think this person could be volatile or dangerous, leave it alone. It’s okay to put your personal safety first. Or find an anonymous way to get the message to the next chump.
Don’t tell if you need no contact.
Even if you don’t have a crazy gun nut for an ex, if no contact is best for YOUR mental health? You can prioritize yourself over saving the next one. We can’t save everyone. And chances are your ex got to the narrative first, anyway.
she was all drama. “He’s lazy. You’ll do all the work.” She was right and I knew I was going to be carrying a bigger load. I was told she was crazy. She was and still IS but I did believe her about his partial incompetence. However, she NEVER called him a cheater. The strange reason I think is because she didn’t know. She also didn’t want to be with him intimately anyways, so I don’t think she was paying attention. I wish she had paid attention because if she had said ‘cheater’, I would have definitely held off.
Would you have? An anonymous stranger told you not to marry him. And his baby mama warned you. (Also the fact that he had a baby mama was a red flag.) You’re Monday morning quarterbacking. You think you would’ve believed him. But you are/were vested in the narrative that these women had “drama”.
He’s the drama.
He was the catalyst for these warnings. From not one, but two people. That should give you pause. Anyway, what’s done is done. Clearly a lot of people feel similarly chumped or they wouldn’t have created “Are we dating the same guy?” sites. It’s the same impulse that made me create this blog.
I didn’t warn weed girl. But every day I get on my internet soapbox and warn the others. Save yourself. Leave a cheater, gain a life!
Also, don’t date him either.
Even on closed “private” Facebook sites, I’m wary of posting anything. There are ways for lawyers to request that in Discovery. In my case, they even requested my private Facebook messages to friends (which I didn’t share). And you never know who else is on there. So I’d say don’t post anything until you are completely in the clear and done with all aspects of your divorce.
Excellent advice.
My attorney recommended a “zero Facebook” policy until I was divorced, and perhaps longer if there were ongoing legal issues. I did post a new profile picture of just me and our two kids once the judge signed off, but that was it.
Because of all the projection, I was expecting my ex to want everything in discovery in addition to my finances — Facebook, emails, texts, etc. But he never asked for that, which my attorney said was a blatant sign of guilt. If we had gone to trial, we would have done that of course, but we settled.
Yikes, what were the grounds for demanding to see your social media messages? Was your ex trying to weaponize custody and smear you with the old “parental alienation” thing that batterers love to throw around? Did opposing attorneys demand to hack your phone to retrieve deleted messages or something?
You should be wary. Women on my local pages complain every week about being doxxed after posting about someone they had dated.
Same, maybe not that frequently, but the pick-me’s are on this sites too.
Women post anonymously sometimes and a lot of others chime in having had experiences with the same person. It’s crazy how far-reaching toxic, abusive people can be.
Since birth I have been attracted to the quiet, moody, silent ragers like my dad. My first boyfriend like that ,cheated. My first husband quiet and shy- cheated. My second husband quiet and shy, covert Narcissist cheated.. So I’m Batting 1000 here. Talked to my therapist and working on MYSELF to stop being so open, friendly , therapy, like cheerful, talker, happy and back it down so as not to gather all the moody sour disturbed people. Stop LISTENING and start talking about ME!!! I’m attracted to the UNAVAILABLE covert sad person to cheer them up forever. I am so good!!!! I’ve taken my vows and will not marry again by my choice but woman friends could drag me down. Too as I play nurse and therapist. Not anymore!!! I have to change this math equation to get rid of my disabling attractions. My job now!!!!
re: being attracted to the moody, sour types —
A friend of mine has a great expression: “Wounded animals have sharp teeth.” So true.
A friend told me a story about a guy driving around with flat tires and trash filling his trunk so that it had to be closed with wires. In the back seat was a raccoon that was foaming at the mouth and snapping, trying to bite anyone who would dare to touch it. Also in the back seat is more trash and rats. So NEW lady gets in car and you warn her and say hey, HEY LADY, I just got out of that car and it is a DISASTER, DO NOT GET IN !!! Your life is in danger. Other woman gets in because SHE WILL CLEAN THIS GUY UP and he will get rid of the trash, the vermin and make a pet out of the raccoon! I just said, Be my guest!! I would have warned OW but she hardly spoke English and was from another country, although routed through a dating app. She is now in my yard, pulling weeds and sleeping in my bed. Clothing hanging in my closet and sleeping with the driver of the rabid raccoon car. HIS eX wifes daughter tried to warn ME 30 years ago.. but I did not listen. I did keep it in my heart and put the puzzle pieces together, but almost too late. I was very determined. WIKI- do whatever you want- It wont change a thing, but its a story to put in their back pack for later…. sooner hopefully than for me.
I need to read the blog before I put my 2 cents in but actually, I dated the same character and picked the same creeps…not the exact guy tho!! Great story todayQ
We all think we’re special & different from their previous partners…that we’ll be THE ONE they change for….so I don’t think telling the next partner works. If this actually worked on anyone – that they left a relationship with a cheater because the previous partner warned them in advance, I sure would love to hear about it & throw them a parade!!! Cheaters will still convince someone to have relationships despite the warnings like are we dating the same guy? because they all have stories of “crazy exes”, like OP here. But sure, still shout it from the tree tops, if nothing else, the new partner may be able to pick up on cheater’s actions sooner if they are alerted to it in advance.
The ‘crazy ex ‘ stuff is almost always a dead giveaway it was them that was the problem and not their ex.
Especially if they talk about someone being crazy very early on for sympathy kibbles.
You might be right, but I’d feel remiss if I didn’t tell (except an OW etc). As CL says, you can’t attach to consequences, do your duty if you think you should, and move on. I think the advantage to telling a potential Chump even if he or she doesn’t want to believe is that once you put the bug in their ear, they’ll be on the look-out even if they’re not fully aware of it. You don’t forget these kinds of warnings. Even if they marry the POS, maybe it will help cut the marriage short so they waste 5 y ears instead of 30. At any rate, I feel it’s my responsibility to tell as long as it’s safe and as long as I’m not stalking
Another suggestion I might have that might be possible after the divorce (when the legal issues have been settled) is to have a website with YOUR STORY UP ON IT. This would be the bare bones story, be careful not to have anything you might be sued on, you could have it vetted by a lawyer, but it might actually be handy to have a website with your story on it. That way you could just point people to it, it’s impersonal, and it’s up there for all to read, including your kids. If they want your side of the story….there it is.
It was actually a conscious feminist credo in my group of women friends since college to never fall into the “hubris trap” of assuming we’d be treated better than the past people any guy dated. It was considered unsisterly and a sign of internalized misogyny to accept flattering comparisons at another woman’s expense.
But I have to thank one friend in particular for being a “thought leader in that way. Maybe because she had two older sisters and three older brothers, she had a really advanced sense of dating risks and how some men can pit women against each other. In a general way she would collect and share “red flags” from various sources (personal observation, stories she’d heard from other girls, things she read in self help books, etc.)– at least the red flags that were understood at the time like staying away from guys who cheated or mistreated in past relationships, staying away from guys who called their exes “crazy,” etc. Consequently I did listen to warnings from other woman (or when something slipped from the horse’s mouth itself) and rejected certain men even when making that decision was difficult. I remember one guy I was totally gaga over in college but one of his friend’s very smart ex girlfriend gave me a heads up. Nothing too terrible but warning enough. I cried buckets but distanced myself because I wouldn’t even date someone who accepted serial cheaters as close friends.
But, my thought leader friend and I both ended up making other mistakes because, back then, I think even the “cutting edge” concept of red flags in self help books and feminist writings was pretty rudimentary and incomplete and didn’t include some of subtler things related to personality disorder that people now share among themselves. To the degree that not even psychologists at the time seemed to understand how long and skillfully a disordered person could seamlessly “mirror” their prospective victims’ beliefs and values before the masks fell, we couldn’t have known certain things until we’d lived long enough to have first hand experiences. Like watch out for seemingly normal, charming chatty men with sisters who seem lobotomized. Or beware of men who cry too much or are overly opinionated about women’s makeup. I could go on and on.
The thing is……we always make excuses for the person we really, really want. The quiet guy is not creepy or friendless….he’s deep and people don’t understand him. The life of the party isn’t a sad ass drunk whose act would wear after a few short years, but a lively, fun guy that everyone likes. The guy who doesn’t like animals is allergic (well, some are, of course) not someone who doesn’t like what he can’t control….and so forth. We’re very good at ignoring red flags and making excuses when we WANT someone. Being a little less attached to outcomes in general is a good idea but it’s hard to fight biology.
“We always make excuses for the person we really, really want”–this is so true!!
Not only do we make excuses, but if you’re young, you don’t have any experience (to speak of) with dating. So it wouldn’t enter your head to go find out ‘what the red flags are’ because you don’t really know about red flags. What would really help is if high schools offered Communication classes, like those that you take in college. When I took my “Communication” class, I learned about ‘I versus You’ messages. However, that class did not teach me about red flags. If there were Communication classes that not only taught ‘I versus You’ messages, but included red flags that impede communication, then maybe I would have recognized the tactics for what they were when I was dating the FW. But I didn’t take that class until I was already married and birthing babies. That’s why I think Communication should be taught in High Schools and the classes should include red-flag tactics that impede communication. Such tactics can be labeled for what they are, i.e., gaslighting tactics. There are millions of young girls and young boys that would benefit. And…, of course…, there are several thousand young sociopaths that would learn how to be more clever if they were taking the classes. Who knows the answer? My children are grown and gone and are nearly in their 40s. Maybe they wouldn’t even be here if I had known about red flags when I was first dating their dad. I can’t go back, and I’m very grateful to have my sons. But at least I can now clue in my grandchildren when they’re a little older, and maybe they won’t be as susceptible to liars and cheaters as I once was.
Yes, I agree. I actually did filter a lot, passed on some “good on paper” types due to intangible vibes or the company they kept. But we can’t know what we don’t yet know and what makes it harder to know things– especially when young– is the amount of information suppression and perspective-marginalizing especially when it comes to sexual politics, anything related to gender inequality, abuse and the narratives of survivors of same.
To paraphrase the African proverb, “Until the lion tells the story, the hunter will always be the hero.”
But the lions weren’t bloody talking– or not talking very clearly– when I was growing up both regarding relationship pitfalls and workplace sexual abuse. My own mother was helpful because she’d had a career and had battled sexual harassment but she herself had married once and well and didn’t really have a lot to share regarding “red flags.”
Even leading feminists back in the day mistakenly legitimized and tried to reconcile a lot of the victim-blaming theories of yore within feminist theory. Consequently many feminists tended to convey a hash of mixed messages or just false ideas like the unfortunate power feminist adaptation of codependency theory, the sum of which is that if you have high self esteem and your own money, abusers will magically leave you alone because abusers are only drawn to losers and doormats… which is sort of like imagining bulls won’t gore vegans.
There are all kinds of great reasons to have high self esteem and financial independence. But, speaking of lions, it’s also chilling to find out later that, statistically speaking, battered women tend to have higher than average pre-abuse self esteem and are more likely to have had careers prior to abuse. It turns out that abusers, like hunters, vary widely in their taste in prey, reserve their worst abuse and coercion for those who resist and some love a good lion trophy.
I’m sure there were a lot of older women who would have shared wisdom with my younger self but only if they’d dared open their mouths without getting ripped apart. Even in the case those women were lucky enough to have a social context that would support radical truth telling, being able to process their own experiences enough to be able to recount them in a way that would be comprehensible to others is a whole other matter.
In the end, a lot of what is taken for individual “codependency” is actually a wider cultural problem.
Just got a flashback of myself at around age 19 and two friends talking and laughing in a restaurant about men and dating when two very elegant, careerish looking forty-something women at the next table butted in though in a nice way. After apologizing for eavesdropping, one said she was mystified about why she’d done everything she could to raise sons to respect women but then she and peers would all find their sons spouting the same kind of sexist attitudes they heard us lampooning. Then she made a broad “Why is that?” kind of gesture.
I think at ages 19/20 my group of friends were hoping the forty-something set would be telling us what was up rather than asking. But that’s how it was. You could just feel how new and strange it still was even in the 90s to merely find the space to discuss things like this to the point that two strangers took what looked like a very uncharacteristic risk of interjecting because they didn’t often hear other women talking about those themes and just had to.
Great point.
I have never met or spoken to Ex-Mrs LFTT’s AP and have no desire to. He knows that she’s a cheater, because they had an affair (he was married and she was single) before she met me. They just decided to return the favour later, by which time he had divorced his first wife and then married and divorced his second wife as well.
I clearly don’t need to tell him that she’s a cheater, but I could have perhaps told him that she is a thief ….. I found out the extent to which she had been “financially creative” throughout our marriage during our divorce, including (but not limited to) her stealing a lot of money from me (never got that back), stealing a lot of money from our children (managed to get that back for them) and having a habit of taking out individual personal loans in her name, keeping the cash and then hiding the payments away in our joint account (which is where my pay went, but not hers).
Do I think that he ought to know this? Almost certainly. Should I tell him? I could, but I doubt that he would listen. Fundamentally, she is his problem now and he can work out what that means for himself.
LFTT
I’d let that bastard find out for himself. It’s maybe the only justice he’ll get. Fuck him.
M,
My thoughts exactly.
Ex-Mrs LFTT’s financial creativity was quite astounding and her ability to be creative towards those that she owed a duty not to exploit (like myself and our kids) was breathtaking. He “won” her and part of his prize (given that I got a clean break in our divorce and so nothing that she does can create a liability on me) is that he is now the most likely subject of her financial creativity. I know I don’t need to wish him ill …… she’ll just do what comes naturally and – one day – he’ll wonder where all of the money that he thought he had has gone.
LFTT
It’s one thing to fall for a two-faced ruse when you know nothing of the person’s conduct but quite enough to find out exactly what they’re about and dive straight in.
It depends on who it is. If it’s Schmoopie, he knew what he was getting himself into when he interfered in my all-but-marriage. He knew what he was getting himself into. “If they would cheat WITH you, they would cheat ON you.” They are still red flags if you help raise them.
If it’s somebody else? I am still leaving them alone. No Contact extends to her appendages…unless they approach me first. Then I get to practice what we all talked about the other day about “when it’s happy to talk about infidelity.” Else if she’s onto somebody else completely out of her Fuckwit Gravity Well…I feel sorry for that dumb bastard but he will learn quickly.
I’ve got to admit, I wince when I see mainstream sources reference these AWDTSG sites. The more mainstream discussion, the greater the risk of being infiltrated by fake profiles. I’ve been on a couple of them, warning off other women comes with risk. Many of the women on there will screen shot what they see someone post about their date, their friend, their coworker and forward it to them, risking the commentor’s safety. Lots of women comment about being harassed after telling the truth about their experience with a guy.
I hope people here don’t go rushing to their local chapter to spill all the tea about their ex, only to end up stalked, harassed, or sued. While these sites have moderators, imposters get through, and vetted members don’t follow the rules about no doxing.
Even the paid sites can be dicey. I paid for a group at several points because I was getting a lot out of their materials and recordings of their coaching sessions, but it got infiltrated THREE times. The last time, I was several years post-divorce, but that still bugged me to the point that I did not review it. I’m fine now anyway, but it goes to show that really NOTHING is 100% private on internet.
A rare time I disagree with Chump Lady. Even in the letter, the writer portrays the Baby Mama, who was probably cheated on, as “crazy” and then says “She also didn’t want to be with him intimately anyways, so I don’t think she was paying attention.” (If those aren’t lines write out of the cheater handbook). She’s still somewhat sticking up for this guy, and worse, denigrating his ex. And she thinks she would have taken the advice seriously? She received the advice from two separate women and she blew it off (which is fine). Oh, but they didn’t use the right word in the advice? If they used the correct language she would have for sure listened? It’s their fault? This letter really rubs me the wrong way. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say she went from AP to Chump.
You seem to disagree with the LW not CL. I think the CL is all about warning ALL of us about red flags. But you didn’t criticize raising red flags, you lobbed a lot of hate at LW erroneously assuming she was the AP.
Was that because you thought she deserved it? That a ph call automatically meant he was cheater not sthg else (still red flag)? That a FWs exes can’t do mean/ vindictive/ controlling things (a red flag in and of itself) to merit being perceived as crazy? Isn’t ignoring the red flags the thing that everyone on here has done, which is how we got here?
Seeds planted can take root. And maybe that hint of something early would have helped sooner, maybe not right away.
For someone on a Chump forum, you don’t seem to have much empathy for chumps and frankly your response “really rubs me the wrong way.”
This response to Spaceman’s concerns is over the top and doesn’t even make sense.
“Baby mama” always sounds denigrating. But I tend to give a temporary pass to people who were recently catastrophically betrayed for going a bit uncharacteristically scattershot with resentment, hostility or suspicion towards the motives of others or for maybe not sounding like PC paragons for a spell– though not long term. If someone is still running wild with cynicism or spewing bigoted-sounding diatribes years after a traumatic event, it’s more a matter of returning to factory setting.
Nowhere is it written that abuse only happens to decent people and, as we can see from abusers and FWs who are typically reenacting toxic relationship patterns from their childhoods, not everyone learns and grows due to interpersonal trauma.
Baby mom? Bio Mom? Both considered not great… I used exBM to allude to fact there are kids which is why I talked to her.
Ex Mom? Sounds like Ex MIl
They were never married …..so what do you suggest?
I suggest, “The mother of my ex’s child/ren.” There are a few more syllables and a bit more typing involved in expressing this but it gets away from the traditional cultural denigration of “unwed mothers” which I think is worth the effort.
Good points. Assholes can be abused as well. The best scenario is when two assholes get together and abuse each other, but that isn’t as fun for them as abusing the innocent.
Part of the victim-blaming cynicism that abusers and their apologists project upon victims is the typical asshole experience of being eaten by bigger sharks than themselves because they they tend to feel at home in shark-infested waters. Some wander into those waters out of total ignorance and idiocy but others were already habitual residents.
Calling me an asshole while being an asshole. #priceless
Not the AP. Broke up years before.
Mom tried to break us up repeatedly. So consider the source? Or not? She only warned about housework (the bane of almost all partnered women), never cheating.
Was the phone call warning @Ex Mom? or cheating?.. never got answer.
Not blaming others. (But you implying that cheated-on-spouses aren’t victims? Duly noted.) When you and your confidence are gaslighted like shredded Parmesan, maybe the seeds planted would have helped, maybe not. Nothing like a Monday morning quarterback.
I would definitely consider the source, but also consider that one’s view of the source can be influenced by things the FW says. I would assume most of what the FW said about his ex was bullshit. That doesn’t mean she can’t be crazy or whatever, but I would need to verify that from better sources.
It’s called experience.
I agree. She still seems to be buying into what the FW thinks about the ex. I also don’t believe she would have listened if the ex said he cheated, since she obviously has such a low opinion of her. The “drama” and “crazy” stuff is right out of the FW playbook, the Bitch Be Crazy gambit.
Yeah….we’re ALL dating the same guy or gal.
Should we tell the next potential Chump? It depends. CL outlined it pretty well but just to add my 2 cents. I would tell unless it’s the OW, for obvious reasons – let her experience the blooms she planted – or if I was monitoring the FW too much. You DO have to get to meh, which means you can’t be following what he or she is doing. At some point, you really shouldn’t know if he or she is seriously dating or who. Of course, when you have kids or you’re in tight knit community, you might not be able to avoid this. And you also have to be careful if your FW is a violent, dangerous person. Some are. But in general, I would warn the next innocent Chump to be even if it’s only anonymously. Anonymously is sometimes all you can do and an in person discussion is too much for some people. Even a note can be enough to put a warning in someone’s head, especially not to have kids with this guy/gal. Chumps are solid citizens and very good about helping out others and being a solid part of society and part of that is warning people, when we can, about that hole they’re about to fall in. Looking out for others is a big part of who we are, what we do. I find I do it even for people I don’t even like, but it’s kind of a civic responsibility.
Also, of course, CL is right about not attaching yourself to consequences. You can warn some people till you’re blue but they’ll just do what they want to do. If you feel you have to tell your story do it without strings attached, just to help a soul out. But recognize that they may not believe you or even get angry. You have to drop the load and go.
I’m a helper-type too and indeed, had to learn to warn and not own any part of the consequences. I made a lot of mistakes after my ex left, but something I did right was to NOT take responsibility for the consequences of his choice to abandon marriage and family. I let his relationship with our college kids fall as it may. Not my committee, if you will.
So, I’m active in the leadership of a twelve-step group. I won’t share the details (of course), but recently a sponsee of mine ended the sponsor/sponsee relationship because I wasn’t 100% on board with a series of life-changing choices that will likely shatter all the progress they’ve made. All I did was warn, believe me. A mutual friend said almost exactly what I did, just raising concerns.
And my sponsee is done with us both, maybe forever. Ok, and the consequences are hers. All we did is warn.
No- I’m not saying a damned thing to the Klingon.
She knew he was married and just went along with his bullshit without finding out the truth, lied to the police on his behalf and is a known shady individual.
May she live in interesting times.
So, one area I had to really cover in therapy is the reason why cheating was my final straw and not the general abusive way he treated me in addition to that. I left my ex-FW of 27 years because he cheated on me (and way worse than I thought, too), but had he not cheated? I probably would have stayed. But THAT was a problem. And I saw hints of that in your comment that if you’d known he was a cheated, you wouldn’t have married him? My concern (as a healing Chump and DV partner) is that it’s pretty shitty of him to expect you to do all the work, etc, as well. The cheating was just more of the same shitty treatment. And not allowing shitty treatment of ourselves kind of is half the battle. My ex’s shitty treatment turned up pretty quickly—subtle demeaning comments, jokes at my expense, small insults, expecting me to do everything, expecting me to cater to him, etc. Later would come raging and yelling and even physical abuse. But if I had listened to how he made me feel from day one—unsettled, unsure of myself, not listened to—I wouldn’t have married him. Finding out 27 years later that he also cheated? It was no surprise by then.
So, we need to recognize more subtle signs of an entitled, abusive person and know not to put up with it. It will be subtle at first, so we need to trust our own emotions and be okay with saying, “This doesn’t feel right.” Or “why am I agreeing to this lopsided arrangement? We don’t necessarily need to be told someone is a bad person or a cheater if the behavior is off from the get go (and it often is, if we learn what to look for and trust ourselves) but we can know we don’t have to put up with ANY poor behavior.
Still healing, but getting there.
RedKD, I too shake my head at the fact that in both my marriages, it took actual infidelity to propel me out of the marriage, when all along–in both cases, though these were two very different men!–there were many things, from the beginning, that “didn’t feel right.” In my case, I think it comes down to a lack of a basic sense of entitlement. I just didn’t feel entitled to reject someone (with all these good qualities, blah blah) just because of a set of behaviors that made me unhappy. So, newly single, I’m working on this issue of entitlement, though these patterns are clearly very deeply ingrained in me.
Something I learned while working advocacy is that a lot of battered women will finally make a concerted effort to leave in response to blatant cheating but the reasons for this are often tragically misconstrued by not only bystanders and legal authorities but by victims themselves. It often wasn’t merely that the individual was perfectly happy to eat shit all along and that only “jealousy” and territoriality were the “final straw” and what it took to prompt escape. Instead it seemed to be more about victims sensing that, as long as they were of sexual “use” to their abusers, abusers would be more likely to “show mercy” and pull their punches a bit. But when it became clear to victims that they were being sexually replaced, they recognized that the gloves were about to come off completely and they might not survive.
Most abuse victims only try to escape when the danger of staying exceeds the statistically considerable danger of leaving. Now that the movement to criminalize coercive control is making headway, there’s been more discussion about the phenomenon of “post separation abuse” and the fact that even abusers who’d never become physically violent before may show steeply elevated tendencies to become violent or suddenly murderous when victims attempt to leave.
Personally I chalk up a lot of our odd primal reactions to abuse to the fact that we evolved from one of the most violent, rapiest species of mammal on the planet and “higher” human evolution is barely a blip within that time span. Without exception, I think each of us has a hardwired lizard brain sense of risk that, when someone close to us significantly lacks empathy, it’s anyone’s guess what that individual is capable of. Our basal ganglia are always going to err on the side of caution in that sense and base gut response on individual resources that either promote or inhibit survival. If we have the necessary resources to make an immediate run for it (“fight or flight”), then that’s what our lizard brains will tell us to do. If resources supporting escape are somewhat lacking, then the lizard brain may tell us to “freeze/fawn.”
I suspect that a lot of victim blaming and even self-blame among survivors of relational violence has to do with the myth of human progress, this idea that we’ve fully and irrevocably transcended our evolutionary past due to reason and the codification of human values like kindness, decency, the golden rule, etc. But I would argue that, in the face of any branch-dragging, empathy-impaired freak, our natural response instantly reverts to “law of the jungle.”
“Most abuse victims only try to escape when the danger of staying exceeds the statistically considerable danger of leaving. ”
He never hit me, but he was so abusive in many other ways through 20+ years. It got worse once he met his AP (I didn’t know she existed for years but in hindsight the misery was heightened during that time)
I never thought to leave until the cheating. And I had a really hard time understanding why the cheating seemed to be the last straw. But your assessment had crossed my mind. I thought of it slightly differently, but same point. To me, I felt like even through the abuse, we were on the same team, he was on my side. He was fiercely protective of me, actually, if anyone or anything else (other than HIM)was in a position to hurt me. And I definitely had thoughts like “if this is how he treats me when we are on the same side, I’m his wife, he “loves” me, what will he do if I leave?” His affair scared the shit out of me because the AP would take my place and I would become an outsider/enemy. I never said that out loud. And it wasn’t until after D-Day that I really even grasped that I THOUGHT that. It was more like a lizard-brain instinct.
It would be one thing if victims were merely being replaced and “let go” by cheating abusers but I think the danger is the dog with two bones issue. Many can’t bear the idea of another dog getting the bone they’re not currently chewing on and so will try to proverbially or not so proverbially bury it through post separation abuse or worse.
I think these dynamics could potentially improve a lot if coercive control is ever widely criminalized because at least a portion of rage monkey FWs– the ones who were mostly bluffing their terror campaigns as a means of hacking their victims’ nervous circuitry to induce paralysis– are going to back off following separation rather than end up in jail. Some won’t though, including the types who attempt murder despite no previous history of physical violence, which is why enforcement is the bigger holy grail.
Abusers are kind of like Everlasting Gobstoppers– you never know what shitty flavor you’ll get next until you leave and the tire iron is coming down on your skull. Just ask Jennifer Dulos and Lacey Peterson (oh right, we can’t). But imagining if these laws passed and enforcement became consistent, it wouldn’t be surprising if a lot more chumps would achieve “meh” at faster rates to the extent that “meh” in many cases is really the dissolution of Stockholm syndrome because the individual finally, finally feels safe. By that token, many survivors would probably discover they hadn’t actually “loved” their FWs for ages and any residual “territoriality” had really just been about keeping a grip on the tiger’s tail to stay out of claw and fang range.
Oh what a wonderful day that would be when misogynistic social researcher and helping professionals were left with a giant pile of useless victim-blaming theories about codependent doormats who just won’t leave because many victims suddenly stopped behaving as expected.
I always appreciate your insights! It also explains why I was actually terrified to leave him. To the point where I got an apartment with a garage so he couldn’t find my car if he came out looking for me. Even now, divorced, I’m still very wary of him and have never been around him in person. I was even hesitant to fully block him on my phone, because to make him angry is terrifying. So it is not even remotely surprising that I stayed with him so long. And again, he wasn’t horrible all the time. People who think that don’t understand domestic violence. Much of the time he put on the nice act.
Yes, I feel so grateful to the late Evan Stark and his decades of campaigning and research to show that the existing public and official conception of domestic abuse is a cartoon. I think it was another researcher who argued that the majority of abusers operate on a “beat by need” basis– meaning they may never raise a finger to a victim who appears sufficiently cowed and captor bonded while the most terrifying or violent abuse is reserved for victims who manage to maintain inconveniently high self esteem and continue to show pluck.
This is very interesting–and helpful!
Agreed!! I really clung to the “good” things and totally ignored the warning signs because I didn’t trust my perceptions.
I am thankful he cheated on me because I wouldn’t have left otherwise.
Me too–I feel HUGELY LUCKY I happened upon that box of condoms!
Truly good advice. My therapist told me early on, after he left, to be very wary of talking to any woman involved with him, past or present. She said to say, “Hey, we’re all adults here. You need to figure out your relationship with him on your own.” Being in her 70’s, she warned me of all the ways that conversations like that could come back to bite me from what she had seen both in her practice and her personal life. No one has called, but I know to stay out of that.
These applied to me:
If she knows about you and thinks it will be different with her? Let Karma bite her.
I’ve noticed that a lot of divorced people play the “horrible, horrible partner/ex” card when trolling for dates. To me, that’s a red flag that they are looking for a rescuer. I know for a fact that my ex played that card when the reality is that he will very likely be the same with the next woman. He comes across very, very well and has money to spend. If that’s what she wants, so be it. I am looking for friendship and depth, period.
Don’t poke the bear.
My older attorney made me promise to hold that standard post-divorce and to go my own way as soon as everything was settled. He said that he would be “wrecked” if my ex ever hurt me again (or worse), and there was certainly a possibility of that. So I kept it all business in closeout even when my ex was sending me yet more rants and raves via email when all that was needed was to exchange the car titles. I became what the younger attorney called a “hard target” via Bill Eddy’s BIFF method. It worked, he finally moved on and leaves me and our two young adults alone, which is what we want.
The current chapter is truly lovely. I love my work, my friends, my dog, and my house/community. I don’t regret the divorce at all.
“’ve noticed that a lot of divorced people play the “horrible, horrible partner/ex” card when trolling for dates. To me, that’s a red flag that they are looking for a rescuer. ”
Elsie,
Here’s a funny one. My FW told all his dates how great I am and how close we are. Now, I’ve no idea what he told his actual original AP. I have to imagine he told her something terrible about me, as they were cheating. Kinda of odd to say “my wife is amazing but you are just better, so let’s cheat”- though I suppose some FW somewhere HAS.
But his affair and our marriage ended so he was dating. I know that one of his first dates he told all about me, in a good light. I figured that since he was new to dating, that was just an early stage nervous error. But then months later he did it again. I know because he told the date so much about me that she figured out that WE have a friend in common. She liked him and called said friend after their date. That friend reached out to another friend of mine to ask “Is SortofOverIt divorced? My friend was out with her husband and he was going on and on about how they are best friends.” That friend told her that we were separated and that we aren’t best friends, he’s an abusive FW. The date blocked him. (In the meantime I was terrified that she was going to tell him why and it would come back to me…even though I wasn’t involved in any of that.)
Wow! What a truly twisted mess. I guess he thought that the “amazing wife” talk would attract a woman more than the truth.
I am certainly a “crazy ex” who “shafted” my ex in the divorce. But he was the one with documented mental health issues, and divorce was actually fair with a pretty standard split in the end.
With divorced men who are interested in me, I’ve learned to largely keep my mouth shut about my history and ask a few well-placed questions. It’s been quite eluminating. If I ever pair up again, I want that chapter pretty closed up and over. Thus far, I haven’t met anyone like that. Most want to talk about the “crazy ex” and being “shafted…” in the first few conversations. Really?
It’s smart not to say too much. You don’t really know them yet and if they have FW-Traits they’ll use the info against you. Or so I’ve read.
I’m not saying it’s 100%, but avoiding victim-speak in the initial contacts generally repels them. I’ve seen that where apparently they decide that I’m too “together” and move on to a softer target.
I’d be careful of posting anything for legal reasons during a divorce. Wanting to warn future victims is honorable, no doubt! But you have to keep your side of the street clean. Also, people still ignore red flags. I know I did – I looked right past ’em! And apparently, so did you. That’s okay, that doesn’t mean we take the blame for what happened to us. It’s not our fault we were abused. It is, though, often human nature. Just keep that in mind.
I’m sorry you were chumped, friend. I think we all wish we knew then what we know now. I sure do. And I’m glad you’re channeling that into wanting to protect others! Just be mindful, okay?
So glad this was posted. I’m going through a similar situation. I would like Chump Nations feedback. I was married to serial cheater ex for 22 years. He was also physically abusive. He was arrested for domestic violence. Anyways I’ve been divorced for 2.5 years. I just got a text two days ago from a friend I used to work with and he told me he met my ex. He didn’t know I was divorced. I told him I divorced because he was a serial cheater and physically abusive. Turns out he told me my ex is dating his best friend’s exwife and the reason they divorced is because she cheated on him (they divorced in 2016). I’m glad two cheaters are together but I guarantee she doesn’t know he’s physically abusive. Should I tell her? Or just let my old work friend tell his best friend?
Let your friend to do it on the condition that he not tell his friend that it came from you. If FW finds out it was you, he might come after you. Stay safe.
LW, be sure you are still placing blame where blame belongs, on HIM. The Cheater.
LW you sound like you are hurting and angry, and perhaps there isn’t anything else you can do about him, but these other people seem like compelling repositories of more people who failed you that you can be angry at. I understand it, I truly do. But it is a complicated choice and it sounds like some did try.
If the last chumps can safely get a warning out there, then many try if they can. If they feel safe posting on websites, then they can. Note even the private groups still have those who share it with the Cheaters. Chumps in custody battles, with dangerous Exes, with vindictive Exes they still have to co-parent with, telling the new Girlfriend can be fought and a complicated choice. Chumps are allowed to focus on saving themselves.
If I could warn my Ex’s new girlfriends and know they wouldn’t show him the screenshot, I would, but he is good at acting like Mr.Victem Good-guy, so I am sure they would. That would stir him up more, give him more evidence to discredit me as the crazy ex, and likely they wouldn’t believe it anyway.
But this responsibility is on HIM not to treat people like that. He is the one who can choose to go to therapy and be a better person. His crimes and harms are not my responsibility. If I could save someone else, I would, but realistically I can’t.
I do think it is unlikely the OP would have listened, as CL said she blew past a couple red flags. No judgement many of us do.
I know I ignored some early red flags, though there were none before we got married. I didn’t find out about a couple things until after we married, that likely would have stopped me from dating him. I even asked him why he didn’t tell me this before we married, and he said “because then you wouldn’t have married me”. Yes this is the same man who 21 years later told me he never loved me, yet he withheld info to ensure I married him.
I think that our cheaters come to believe the rehearsed lies they’ve told about us, so that I’m no longer bothered by their historical and character assassinations. Mine perused my daughter’s copy of the memoirs I wrote about our cute meet and early adventures traveling and living aboard. Next time we met (still during hand-offs back then) he looked at me with a troubled, furrowed brow and said, “I don’t remember any of that.” I believe(d) him. My most cherished memories all had been overwritten in his brain by the lies he told his extra-curriculars during our long marriage. So the good parts remain a love story for one. Good enough.
From what I understand, that level of history-rewriting and confabulation are pretty classic symptoms of more serious personality disorders. Pretty scary actually.
I’m almost impressed with those memory-erasing and fictionalizing skills because, much as it might be comforting to do so, I’ve never been able to erase or overwrite embarrassing mistakes by my younger self. I remember that stupid shit in all its full, cringy glory. But none of my dumb behavior involved criminal conduct, injury to others or sadistic intentions so perhaps mere embarrassment isn’t really enough to trigger the psychopathic tendency to rewrite and rationalize past events but real culpability is.
Exactly, in fact my fw was adamant that he had no memory of our early years, when I talked about a couple of the good times. This was in the early part of the discard when I was desperate to wake him up. HA, little did I know, the only one that needed to wake up was me.
I think he was trying to crush me by telling me the whore had taken over his whole memory. So in other words the only good times he had were with whore.
Do I think once whore became wife and things settled down did he start to remember, of course he did; he was many things but he wasn’t an idiot. But by then it was too late. Which was really fortunate for me.
Quite frankly GC I bet yours remembered too; but they won’t let down that guard they put up. It is what they have to live with, otherwise in their addled mind they expose themselves as a liar.
“She also didn’t want to be with him intimately anyways, so I don’t think she was paying attention.”
Says who? Him? Sounds like the usual “she didn’t like sex” FW bullshit.
WIW, but you are in danger of being fooled again if you buy into stuff like exes of the fuckwits being dramatic, crazy and sexless. Sometimes they are crazy, but consider the possibility that being gaslit by the FW made them that way, or at least made them worse than they already were. Maybe the ex did have a suspicion he was cheating, but couldn’t prove it, so she didn’t mention it. The trouble with being a FW’s ex is that too often by the time they find break up with the FW they are a shadow of their former selves and don’t come across as credible. So are you really sure you would have believed her?
As for the sites, I say go for it. I didn’t know those existed.
I think she was honestly not attracted to him. And certainly FWs behavior didn’t help
Okay, understood. Thanks for responding and welcome to CN.
So according to my daughter, my FW’s new GF knows he cheated. He had to admit that, because everybody else in his life knows and somebody else would have told her eventually. She probably does not know he’s an emotionally abusive, gaslighting, pathologically lying porn addict and covert narc.
However, since she chose to be with a known cheater, that’s unlikely to give her pause and he’d just deny it anyway. I have no way of proving any of that and I have no doubt he pre-salted the land with the Bitch Be Crazy narrative for just that reason. So I won’t involve myself in the FW circus and risk catching fleas from it. I’m staying out of it for the sake of my mental well-being. She’ll find out herself, because he’s way too far gone now to hide it as well as he used to be able to do.
If anyone asked me I would tell them the truth.
Otherwise, I wouldn’t spend my time warning my successors.
Remember, Scott Peterson and Chris Watts and others like them get mail in prison from women seeking a romantic relationship with them.
🤯
Yes, prison romances remind us that love can be irrational and truly blind people to the reality of these things. Same with the romance scams where someone in Africa convinces someone in the U.S. that the person they have been texting for six months HAS to be in love with them and real.
One more little bit to add here… My ex FW has been dating another woman for over a year, which I learned from our grown children. She’s not one of his affair partners (I don’t think) and when I hear how he treats her (on edge, about to yell a lot, etc.), I feel very bad for her and a part of me wants to reach out and “help” somehow. (Don’t worry, it’s just a fleeting thought). She lives with him and I’m thinking he bought her a car, which of course means he can kick her out or take the car away, leaving her powerless. I feel very bad for her and want to tell her, “listen….it does not get better.You want to leave. Like, NOW.” But she’s a grown up. She has all the info she needs right now, right in front of her. I’m not going to get involved with that.
My FW moved out just as his AP dumped him. Or more accurately, she carried on with a married man for years, and there was a lot of pick me dancing (fear-induced pick me dancing on my part) Then as soon as things seemed to be 100% definitely over in his marriage, and he was apartment shopping, she dumped him. (Which lead to him turning the blame to me, “we should reconcile, YOU are casting aside decades of a good marriage”. I was afraid he was going to refuse to move out. So thanks AP for THAT final “gift” )
He recently met someone new (we are separated but the divorce process has not started yet) and after 8 weeks together, they are super serious, he met her family and now wants my kids to meet her as “she’s going to be around a lot”.
This is a new development and I am having absolutely crazy feelings. They feel an awful lot like bitterness and jealousy which makes me disgusted with myself. Yet the thought of touching him makes my skin crawl, so I was so confused about my reaction. Referring to her (only in my head) as his “fucking gf”, which is so misplaced. She wasn’t an AP. She wasn’t even the first woman he dated after the AP. He has had a lively dating life since he moved out 10 months ago. I didn’t care about any of the others. Though, ok, this is the first one he is serious about, He said they are “planning their future” together. (Again, after 8 weeks) Oh, I should add that one of the factors was that he told one of my kids (14) about her at the 2 week mark, “I met someone that is very special, I’m off the dating apps, we are serious and exclusively seeing each other, but don’t tell your mother”. He then proceeded to tell them lots about her. And showed them pics of her and her dog. When my kid said they don’t really like that breed, he said “well we may be sort of adopting it…so” My kid (and I) took this as alluding to them possibly living together. Again, this was at 2 weeks! My kid told me immediately as they were upset. And then I had to pretend not to know when dealing with him, as I don’t want my kid to feel they can’t trust me.
Like an utter idiot I assured my kid that there is no way they would be moving in together any time soon. That would be a long time off and they would see it coming, it wouldn’t be dumped on them out of the blue. It would be gradual. But now he wants her to meet the kids. And was implying that he’d want her to be around, no not implying, STATING that she WILL be around a lot this summer and so the kids HAVE to meet her now. We share custody 50/50. One week on/one off. He expressed that he doesn’t want to have two separate lives where one week he is with gf and the other he is with kids. He wants the gf to be around on the kids weeks. (rich, a FW that doesn’t want to live a double life)
I know that who/how he dates now that we are separated is none of my business. But once you start telling the kids and alluding to the new partner moving in or perhaps just staying over frequently (no idea what he meant by adopting the dog) I should be informed. And telling my kid to LIE to me is insane. Thinking they would keep the secret is also insane.
Then when he finally told me, he said our older kid knew, but he lied to my face about how they knew. Said they saw him texting and caught her name and started asking questions.
Nope. He just vomited all this info on them unbidden. My kid is very astute, they said “he doesn’t have any friends and I guess he was very excited to tell SOMEONE”. I think that is exactly what happened and once he told them, he realized he wasn’t ready to tell ME and so he told them to lie.
I did some thinking and realized that all these really awful feelings are what I had immediately after D-Day. Being told news that would change my life drastically, affect my kids and there is nothing I can do about it. It just brought it all back.
I am trying to just work through my crazy feelings while reminding myself what is right and reasonable. I can’t hate this woman. She didn’t do anything wrong. But I also can’t warn her because I’m far too afraid of HIM to do so. And we are about to embark on the actual legal divorce side of things. He is a selfish FW that is going to be enraged by every single part of the process, I don’t need him to also be mad that I told his gf he’s an abusive FW. (CL covered this in her reply, “save yourself”)
I am so frustrated that I didn’t get in therapy sooner so I could work through my FOO issues that kept me so frozen in dealing with him. The divorce would have been finalized years ago. Now I have to go through it while he is actively “planning a life” with someone else. Someone that may have opinions that aren’t in the best interest of me and my kids. For example the house. I can’t afford to buy him out now. Between what I would owe him, and refinancing at the current rates, it’s simply out of my reach. He was amendable to allowing us to stay in the house until the youngest graduates in 4 years. But now that he is planning a future with this woman, getting his equity out NOW might be more of a priority to him. He is going to realize that they may want to get married and by a house in the next 4 years. Or on a more simple basis, this woman might push him to fight all kinds of things because the more he pays me, the less he will have to spend on “their future”.
I’m also a little worried that she might be as nutty as him given that she seems as serious as him, 8 weeks in. Also, 8 weeks to me is a short time. But it is rendered shorter when you consider that due to custody, he could only see her 4 of those weeks, and he had a work trip for one, and Covid for another. They are introducing him to their family and planning a future, after 2 weeks of in person dates, 8 weeks of texting/calls.
Well, you can trust that whatever nonsense he didi with you will also occur with her. I admit that when I think of them going on vacations together, etc, I feel sad because I remember when we went on vacations together, but then I catch myself and remember how he would text his AP while WE were on a special vacation, or the times he’d get really mad at me on a cruise because I moved too much in my sleep and I had to hang out on the Lido deck because he was mad at me, or how he always did something weird and creepy on a vacation and it puts things in perspective.I realized that whatever it may appear on the surface, he’s definitely going to yell at her for the smallest thing, he’s going to criticize her and put her down, even subtly. He’s going to control what she can wear, what she can eat, what she can say to others. And I wouldn’t trade places with her for a million years.
I realized that I miss the IDEA of what I thought I had, but never actually had. What I wanted to have, the family it looked like I had–I never had it. I had to grieve and realize I never had it to begin with and that really sucks. I’m still kind of sad about losing out on that for 27 years when it could have been different if I’d not been with him. But it’s not actually him. It’s what I wanted him to be, but he wasn’t.
I think it just takes time, my friend. Hugs.
People who get that serious that quickly – talking about intertwining their lives together after a few weeks means people who are very needy, who can’t be alone, who are mental cases, or have a financial motive, etc. This is NOT what normal healthy people do and that is the message I would give my kids. You tell them about his affair(s) and make sure they know that is why the marriage broke up (unless there are other reasons too) and that while this is not the woman who was involved, this is not how normal people act, or should act. This is about achieving ends or acquiring a facade or something like that rather than an actual healthy relationship. The kids should know this is NOT how it’s done. This is their father BULLYING THEM into accepting this relationship because it’s what HE wants and he gives fuck-all about their feelings or needs. He will not only try to bully them into accepting her to validate his fucked up life choices, he is probably quite capable of abandoning them or taking things away from them (via you) to enforce that.
You can let them know what you think of all this, try to be calm, measured and not dramatic or emotional. But you also can’t do anything about it. He’s going to do his crazy shit and all you can do is give the kids your view of it so they can better assess it for themselves. After all, you have life experience – especially with him as a partner – and they don’t. Beyond that, the only thing you can really do to protect yourself and the kids with finances and assets is through lawyers and the courts. You can’t control this asshole and whatever future asshole he picks (because she is undoubtedly an asshole to want to settle down so seriously with someone she really doesn’t know). My guess is she IS looking for money. Is there an age gap between them? I guess it doesn’t matter. Tell the kids and make sure you are adequately lawyered up. I think that’s all you can do right now. Your ex is an asshole, that’s why he’s becoming an ex. Your confused feelings are – to me – about what you lost from the past and the future you planned for yourself and the kids, all the things you thought you’d all have from financial to rocking chairs on the porch, all up in smoke because of his assholery. The terrible thing is that life can change for us all very quickly and there’s nothing we can do about that – the worst cases are when it changes through treachery and betrayal, as with your ex. You’re still the in the fairly early stages, it’s gonna take time to grieve for what you had and what you WANTED to have and you’re gonna be jealous of someone who seems to get what should have been yours. That is incredibly normal and natural. But you know at some point, whether he stays with this nut or not…..he’s gonna end up shitting on her or the next one too. It’s what he does. Right now he’s shitting on HIS KIDS….who does that?
Thank you, Mehitable.
The last few years have been just one awful thing after another. And I have gotten to the point where I don’t always trust myself. I thought it was absolutely insane to be that serious at 8 weeks. And if he hadn’t met her family, I’d think maybe only HE was that serious. But no. It’s the both of them.
No age gap. She is 42, he’s 46.
I was so angry with myself for how I handled the conversation. I knew it was coming. And obviously I was angry that he had told my child to lie to me. And when he told me, he lied about WHY the child knew. I was almost holding it together. But 2 things happened.
And I lost my calm, I said some mean things and he stormed out. I’m mortified. He probably told her “my ex is super jealous and lost her mind when I told her about us”. And in fairness to him, that was exactly what it looked like. But I am not jealous. I do not want him. If I did this is exactly where I would go to admit it. He still ruins my day multiple times a month when he doesn’t even live here. But all those D-Day feelings and everything that happened since and I just lost it. And I’ve been that way for 3 days now. I’m calmer because he isn’t in front of me. But I feel so icky and unhinged. I don’t like feeling so out of control. I’ve been so good about “if it feels good, don’t do it” and “trust that they suck”. The phony pick me dance of fear went on for a long time and I had gotten past a lot of those yucky feelings. But currently I am cycling through wanting to break things, cry and vomit. And this isn’t D-Day. This is a gf after 10 months of him dating. I was fine. And maybe I would have remained fine if he tell me he was introducing her to my kids immediately bc he intends to have my kids around her all summer. If this took a NORMAL path, at 8 weeks maybe he’d say he met someone he really likes and got off the apps, then a little later said it was getting serious and a bit later “I want the kids to meet her”.
I’m all for telling. I’m very skeptical of yet another anonymous internet hole to sling mud around. Anonymity seems to benefit the character disturbed the most.
Maybe we should all have taken stranger danger more seriously.