Babies Are Great!

Well, I don’t feel like doing much writing today, CN. I heard the news Friday, got in my car and drove an hour into DC to go shriek at the Supreme Court for hours. How was your weekend?

Oh God, she’s not going to talk about abortion today, is she? That’s so divisive! I thought this was a safe space. 

I thought my uterus was a safe space. But don’t worry, I’m not going to talk about my once-constitutionally-protected reproductive freedoms going down the shitter. I’m going to talk about babies!

We all like babies. These are divisive times, but we can all agree on one thing — babies are adorable. And, if we all get testy with one another, just look at this picture and go “Aww!”

Cute baby!

However, a warning, if you get testy in the comments, I will delete. Do not bleat to me about your right to free speech, because that’s a constitutionally protected right and those are just for guns.

Before I move on to babies (so cute!), I wonder if anyone else is wondering “What next?” Now that states get to reverse legal precedent and federal laws, can Ohio bring back Dred Scott? How does that work if you’re three-fifths of a human in Ohio, but a whole person in Michigan? Do you get discount theater admissions in Toledo, but pay full price in Detroit?

Or taxes? What if Rhode Island declares that no one in the state has to pay federal income tax? Can we all move to Rhode Island? It’s small.

I have so many questions. But, looking on the bright side. Mr. CL and I have three sons, so now grandchildren look like a distinct possibility. Yea! Babies!

Speaking of babies, I just wanted to follow up with the five Supreme Court justices who wrote the majority opinion last Friday. Some people say they’re radical, misogynistic, right-wing zealots, but I think of them more like storks. In black robes. Who will bring us babies.

***

Dear Brett, Clarence, Neil, John, and Amy,

I hope it’s okay to call you by your first names. I feel like we’re intimate, what with you overseeing my lady parts.

Now that you’ve overturned Roe v. Wade, I was wondering if you could settle the small matter of my unpaid child support. Last time I looked, I was owed about $7,000 and change. Plus seven years interest. And 15 years of unpaid medical expenses. Plus three years of dropped health insurance. Anyway, there’s a tab.

And I thought as how  — and I’m not blowing smoke up your ass — you’re the highest court in the land, you could enforce my court order.

I’ve been trying to enforce it for years! But I don’t have the Federalist Society behind me or Mitch McConnell.

I know you have a lot on your plate, but I have a few suggestions. Could we microchip the deadbeats? Or would that be government overreach? Oh ha, just kidding.

If I lose my phone, my iPad can find it. Bluetooth syncs with just about everything. So, how about every time a man ejaculates irresponsibly, we chip him? Keep a database. That baby mama check doesn’t appear? Whammo! They’d go off like a car alarm.

Is that too disruptive? We could set them to vibrate. The technology exists.

Look, I’m not trying to call in favors, but I’ve been a good vessel. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, married, carried my pregnancy to term (pre-eclampsia, two months of bedrest, and three-day labor damn near killed me — but what is organ failure when it comes to motherhood?).

Gestating a human being was all worth it because — babies! Who doesn’t love them? Their cute little nibblet toes. Their chubby little cheeks. Nom, nom, nom! Look at this cuddle muffin:

I’m sure you’re thinking, “Oh good, she’s completed her manifest destiny and given us a boy child.” And when you think of fetuses, you imagine this blonde, blue-eyed, baby Boo. Decked out in his preppy sweater, full of potential.

And then… the shiny wears off.

And you don’t think of him (or me) at all.

HELLO? Can’t you see how freaking ADORABLE my child is? The same thing happened to his father. He canceled his subscription to parenting.

Which left me with that court order.

The one I had to try and get enforced, which is kind of nuts. He walks away from moral and court-ordered responsibility, and it’s my job to play bounty hunter? (The chips would make things much easier!) However, bounty hunters get actual bounty. I got an arrearage balance, paid off in $50 monthly increments over years. (Apparently it’s too unkind to force immediate repayment.) And then a notice, from the state of Texas, that they stop enforcing altogether after your kid turns 18.

I won’t bore you with the state skipping, under-table-working, and all around bill shirking. Or the paltry sums I was fighting for. Less than baseline child support is a thing! Meanwhile, dick dribble was buying a house, enjoying world travel, posting pictures of himself with elephants on his social media. All of which is affordable when you’re not feeding and caring for a child.

Brett, Clarence, Neil, John, and Amy — children need care and feeding. Fetuses, not so much. They have this whole umbilical cord thing, but once you push them out into the world? OMG, the bills.

I don’t know if you’ve thought through this entire social experiment of More Babies. It’s not all Happy Nuclear Families out there. More babies = more deadbeats.

Maybe we could abort the deadbeats? Oh, that would stop a beating heart?

Consider the chips.

Your faithful vessel,

Tracy

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MichelleShocked
MichelleShocked
1 year ago

Thank you Tracy. And to put it another way…. I said to my boyfriend this weekend “Even when we still had a CHOICE I didn’t know what I’d do if I got pregnant now. It’s scary to think. I’m 50+ and it’s still possible. My health would be at risk. The baby would be at risk. But I’m also a woman with privilege: support, means, insurance,…. even before this horrifying decision to overturn Roe v Wade, it was extraordinarily difficult to get an abortion and a scary decision to follow through with. How in the world can women without all of that survive this decision????” But I guess the Supreme Court has decided that it’s ok to be racist, sexist and elitist when it comes to women.

On the plus side, FW is a staunch pro-lifer — as are his parents. I’m relieved his AP (who is openly liberal and pro choice) gets to enjoy dealing with that now. It was tempting to write her a thank you note! (didn’t…. but oh I’m tempted! )

B
B
1 year ago

I live in Canada but was shocked to see what the lunatics on SCOTUS did.

They waited until Justice Ginsberg passed away and then did what they always wanted to do. So sad.

FuckWitFree
FuckWitFree
1 year ago

Great post, Tracy. So sorry you had to write it. Dystopian. Interesting that many FWs are pro life. They are also pro abuse, pro gaslighting, pro selfish, pro deception. It’s all about serving their servile needs. Like those justices.

ExWifeOfSparkleDick
ExWifeOfSparkleDick
1 year ago

It’s in the hands of the state legislatures. You want back child support? Vote in legislator’s that will make laws that allow/enforce it. THAT’S how things work. If this is something that you’re passionate about, you’re going to have to get involved. No way around it.

Sunrise
Sunrise
1 year ago

Clearly you don’t live in Cook County.

MollyMe
MollyMe
1 year ago

How do I know which people to believe “will make laws that allow/enforce it”? Sort of like a few of the Justices promised Roe v. Wade was settled law and they had no intention of changing it? Like some people believed them? And, I’m sorry to inform you, ExWifeOfSparkleDick, we shouldn’t have to get involved to obtain justice. That’s not the American Way that I believe in; I believe in the one that promises Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness to all; the one that believes Justice is a noble goal for all citizens, not just the ones who get involved. The mother of a newborn whose father ran off have enough on her plate without having to do whatever you mean by “getting involved” to ensure our laws are enforced.

bread&roses
bread&roses
1 year ago
Reply to  MollyMe

Agreed, MollyMe. With everything going on in the world, we are now forced to waste precious time, money, energy and life on this?

Cam
Cam
1 year ago

Vote, absolutely, but it’s an uphill battle in states that are gerrymandered into the ground. Let’s not forget the deck’s stacked against us, and Republicans made it that way.

M
M
1 year ago

Yes, my state wanted to help enforce the court support order (which varied between $20 and $50 per week per kid. While he made up to $80,000 a year. Laughable!) but then Deadbeat Dad moved to a state that didn’t. So I went to court in that state. Then he moved to another. And another. And I had to find him myself each time and file in each new jurisdiction. Do you know that enforcement is really county to county? Bill Clinton signed the URESA, the Uniform Reciprocal Enforcement of Support Act, and I STILL couldn’t get the deadbeat to pay, while he skipped around like a butterfly and had a few more kids, and bought his boats and motorcycles and traveled internationally. He finally agreed to pay $100 a month for arrears, then died. Goodbye $17,000+. Goodbye FW.

Lee Chump
Lee Chump
1 year ago

I agree. However, man people are in states that are red, red, red and there is no way (at least not in the forseeable future to turn anything blue in those states).

FlamingLiberal
FlamingLiberal
1 year ago

that’s funny… I thought when those 3 liars, excuse me, I meant to write supreme court nominees were questioned, they said Roe v Wade was settled law and was not to be revisited. Gee whiz, so odd it’s now back to state level.

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  FlamingLiberal

The word “liberal” derives from the word “liberty” and it’s always been curious to me why some use it as an insult and an epithet.

M
M
1 year ago
Reply to  FlamingLiberal

Susan Collins must feel so USED. They promised!

MollyMe
MollyMe
1 year ago
Reply to  M

Susan Collins is a worthless piece of trash. She KNEW. She KNEW they were lying to her but she voted for them anyway. She KNEW. How could she not have known? The rest of all knew what they were really planning. And if she truly didn’t know, then she’s a fool and isn’t smart enough to be in office.

Dude-ette
Dude-ette
1 year ago
Reply to  MollyMe

Absolutely. And on top it, established and renowned attorneys said that even if Kavanaugh wasn’t lying about his drinking and bedroom attacks, his response demonstrated a lack of judicial restraint and temperament.

Innocent people don’t respond like Kavanaugh did, because they know the truth will come out.

Now that Kavanaugh has proved he’s a liar, I wonder if he cares to revisit the sexual violence he’s imposed on a young girl.

MehBeSoon
MehBeSoon
1 year ago

OK, but what if your EX moves to another state that doesn’t allow/enforce payment for child support? And then says he doesn’t have to pay because he no longer lives in your state? Or let’s say that you get offered your dream job in another state that has no such laws/protections in place?

The point CL is making is that these laws are trying to regulate women’s reproductive choices but never seem to discuss the need to make men accountable for pregnancies and the babies that follow. Last I checked, women are not getting pregnant on their own — so why are only mothers, and not fathers, having their reproductive choices regulated/legislated?

Someone Online
Someone Online
1 year ago

Republicans are already stating they plan to make abortion illegal at the national level when they have the chance. Saying it’s a state matter is just trying to gaslight people who are mad.

TinyJ160
TinyJ160
1 year ago

Thank you for this post. I’m beyond angry and would be out protesting as well if I weren’t pregnant (by choice. I have happily moved on years ago due to this blog and thankfully did not procreate with the ex). My friend also made a good point in her sub stack here: https://mettajdwyer.medium.com/there-is-nothing-pro-life-about-it-b4303a6898ee

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  TinyJ160

I spent the weekend on ballotpedia.org, researching candidates for other states and making donations.

http://www.ballotpedia.org

I also, unlike those liars in black robes, volunteer my time and money assisting my two friends who are foster parents (all the babies involved were born to young drug using mothers who don’t think or care about birth control. One is pregnant again, which is sadly a common occurrence for people who have children in foster care).

nothisfriend
nothisfriend
1 year ago
Reply to  TinyJ160

Wow, this article puts all my vague feelings into words! Thanks for sharing.

Trawna
Trawna
1 year ago

Ah, algorithms. Mine has linked baby formula to today’s post. jfc

Almost Monday
Almost Monday
1 year ago

So far, I’ve had one snarky thought and one snarky action. I think young women should feel free to require an extensive background check for any male hoping to “fire off his gun”. Starts with a review of his party registration and savings account. My snarky action was slipping my protest sign under the local GOP headquarters door mat after the rally.

Too partisan?

This political party has remained largely silent while lying Supreme Court nominees were rushed through, insane candidates try to gaslight the public, fuckwits add to their gun collections and a malignant narcissist acts like a victim. I left my cheater and hope the rest of American chumps gain a life in November.

Lee Chump
Lee Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Almost Monday

Almost Monday: I have wondered too (1) is it ok for the SCOTUS nominees to lie to the people that were going to be voting to confirm or not confirm them for the position (my upbringing says no) (2) why have we not heard more about these lies and whether they are ok or not. Surely the senators voting wanted the truth. What is a member of SCOTUS worth that lies to get confirmed? Really, not much to me as I hate to be lied to and I also hate for someone to lie about such an important thing. My wondering goes on and on.

DeadbeatKarma
DeadbeatKarma
1 year ago

10000000000000000% agree to this. Babies don’t magically appear. The best way to get this overturned is hold the sperm donors accountable. Not just in a court order kind of way more of like in a karmic justice kind of way.

Make neutering mandatory for all deadbeats, you have at least one child you fail to support no more children for you… Stop the baby making at it’s source. Actually enforce repayment not a light slap on the wrist with a stern talking too. It cost money to raise a child. It cost money to go to court. Have them remain in custody until the balance is repaid. Increase child support minimums from 17% per child to 50% per child. A registry should be made publicly accessible like a background check for guns. Oh you want to participate in little league for your newest whores kids… Sorry according to the national database of deadbeats you are $15k in unpaid child support and haven’t seen your kids in years. No kibbles for you..

None should be allowed the leniency to walk away from their child. Hold these men accountable ladies. Each and every one of us working together can create the changes necessary.

Bubbachump
Bubbachump
1 year ago
Reply to  DeadbeatKarma

Better yet, how bout we just require all makes to get vasectomies at puberty. They’re easily reversible and a very simple surgery. When they can prove they’re fiscally responsible, can put up a bond for 250k per child, married, undergo parenting classes, and have been faithful to their spouse for at least five years (with their spouses permission of course) then they can get their vasectomies reversed. If they don’t like it, too bad! If we don’t have bodily autonomy why should they?

Unicornomore
Unicornomore
1 year ago
Reply to  DeadbeatKarma

Human enterprises are not perfect and can get things wrong. My son and his child’s mother were in the process of enacting an adoption so that my son could relinquish rights to his sons step father and (heaven forbid) if anything ever happened to the mom, my grandson would stay in his nuclear family.

Mid adoption, my son got cancer and suggested they pause the adoption so that if he died, his son could get federal benefits. My son also has Aspergers and moved closer to his son during covid.

The state had been notified that the request for child support was paused but their records reflect non payment so his bank accounts have been frozen and they took his last $400. He is literally an unemployed autistic cancer patient with nary a single dollar to his name.

Attempts to correct the situation through Child Support Enforcement have been fruitless. I would hate to imagine this same unreachable force plucking him off the street and castrating him. Lets keep some degree of logic and decency in the argument, please.

His child is growing up with 2 wonderful parents, I took him to London and I will likely pay for his education. I gave his mom free housing, a wardrobe of maternity clothes, a car to use and anything else she needed for the first 2 years of her sons life. I bought every crib and carseat he had until he was in school. Grandson is in my will and will do when when I kick off.

Bubbachump
Bubbachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Unicornomore

I’m sorry about your son, but you must understand this is what women have been dealing with all our lives. We’ve been under the constant threat that our right to an abortion could be taken away at any time, and now here we are. Women have been prosecuted and jailed for having miscarriages.

The reason for our frustration is that at the mere suggestion of something like forced vasectomies brings men out with their stories where they’re the victim of something that hasn’t happened and never will. We’ve lived our whole lives with inequality and it just got a whole lot worse. We were just told we we don’t matter by the highest court in the country. We were just told we are not equal. That’s devastating. It’s a message we’ve received our whole lives, but to have a declared legally is crushing. I know many of us have been crying about it for days. It’s really hard.

I’m sure your son is a nice man, I’m sure you are too, but there are millions of sad stories of women who have been crushed under the weight of our oppressive system for hundreds of years, and it just got worse. Women will die because of this. That’s real. If men could feel half the empathy for us they feel for themselves when we suggest forced sterilization we might not feel so angry and alone. Even our pro choice allies don’t quite get there. I just don’t understand why men feel the need to share their sad stories of how they suffer too when women literally had the worst week we’ve had in a very long time. Can you just give us this and not do the “not all men” thing, please?

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  DeadbeatKarma

>Make neutering mandatory for all deadbeats

No politician would seriously entertain this idea (at least for straight white men) because it’d infringe on men’s bodily autonomy. Which it is. But it’s infuriating they don’t extend the same consideration for women.

DeadbeatKarma
DeadbeatKarma
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

Obviously neutering men isn’t very politically correct. However there is some logic to it. Vasectomies are reversible and some judges have ruled in paternity cases that a deadbeat be forced to have a vasectomy because of the financial strain they are putting on the community. Precedent was already established like 20 years ago in the Wisconsin vs Oakley case. Tweak it and apply it on a larger scale.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  DeadbeatKarma

>Obviously neutering men isn’t very politically correct. However there is some logic to it.

This is the same logic behind eugenics. We don’t want to go there, either.

Nut Cluster Free Zone
Nut Cluster Free Zone
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

“Mandatory Vasectomies
Life Begins at Ejaculation !”

Sign carried by a woman wearing a spermatozoa print dress

bread&roses
bread&roses
1 year ago

Men have the right to vasectomies — as they should — but women do not have the right to abortions.

??? This is blatantly unequal. And then, consider it within the context of rape and abuse.

MamaMeh
MamaMeh
1 year ago
Reply to  DeadbeatKarma

Whoa, like a reverse Gilead

DeadbeatKarma
DeadbeatKarma
1 year ago
Reply to  MamaMeh

Gilead is an uncivilized and unjustifiable monstrosity. This is more like finally
saying enough is enough and imposing reasonable consequences.

Fourleaf
Fourleaf
1 year ago

The news last week was shocking. I’m still numb. And they’re gunning for same sex marriage and birth control next. It’s a dystopian nightmare.

bread&roses
bread&roses
1 year ago
Reply to  Fourleaf

I agree, Fourleaf. We have entered a dystopian nightmare. On Friday, SOCUS made women second class citizens. The consequences are most immediate and severe for women of color, low income women, women with certain health conditions, women in abusive situations and women of child-bearing age (non-exhaustive list) — all of whom collectively represent a significant portion of the US population — but this ruling restricts the rights of ALL women and girls. This is only the beginning, isn’t it? The precedents that this ruling (and the “logic” behind it) overturns/establishes, and the growing extremism it represents, are terrifying.

My mind is spinning. How will these laws be enforced? Where? By whom? Will we need to furnish proof of infertility? Travel alibis? Travel restrictions? Proof of gender? It’s absurd, when you start to think about the practicalities. ALL women are now suspects. There is no way to enforce this law (which itself violates a woman’s most basic rights) without violating many other rights and precedents. It’s absolute insanity. I can’t get the opening pages of The Handmaid’s Tale out of my mind. Our most personal information is already available and for sale, thanks to data mining, facial and voice recognition software, social media, ad tracking, RFID state IDs and passports, purchase history trails, phone and text logs, location services, chips in credit cards, national “security” programs, increasingly “intelligent” and sophisticated algorithms, etc. How can this information be used against us, now and in the future? What might someday be used as evidence against us? We need to stand up, and yet we need to be safe and careful. Can we comment on our favorite blogs? We’re cautioned to share faceless screenshots of photos that could in any way link us to seemingly innocuous groups or events. Women are deleting fertility apps. Using code words. Which civil/human rights will come under fire next?

This is not about protecting life. How dare these privileged, entitled, abusive spiritual leaders, lawyers, politicians judges — “Justices,” what a joke — pretend this is about compassion, freedom and the sanctity of life? It’s about power and control. They all have blood on their hands. These decision makers are guilty of much, in their personal and political lives: sexual harassment and assault, infidelity, child porn, sex trafficking, domestic abuse, racism, misogyny, smear campaigns, institutional betrayal — just to name a few of their crimes. This ruling makes criminals less, not more, accountable. It criminalizes and punishes the innocent.

This weekend, in reflecting on where I am today, I found myself thinking back to a difficult time in my life. About ten years ago, I took the morning after pill at my FW ex’s insistence. I was healthy and in my early 30’s, had a good, steady job and apartment, a supportive family, health insurance, and had been in what I believed to be a committed, monogamous relationship with my partner for nine years. I wanted a child and had wanted kids forever, and I had worked in childcare and/or education since my teens. I was prepared for and welcomed motherhood, and I didn’t want to take “Plan B,” but I let FW coerce me into it. I wish I’d refused him, but at the time, I didn’t believe I had the right to. I began to fall into a depression, and my ex grew downright cruel. (At the time, i was confused, but it now makes perfect sense. FW was an alcoholic who, unbeknown to me, was already a year or two into cheating on me in what would turn into many years of a secret double life.) I tried to communicate, I worked on myself and I made changes. I finally identified and expressed that I felt he couldn’t prioritize our future and life together — and as a result, I couldn’t move forward or make plans — because he was so enmeshed with his family (his widowed mother and his sister) and childhood home. To which he responded that family comes first, and if someone held a gun to his head and made him choose who to shoot — his mom, his sister, or me — he’d choose me. I was obviously upset by this, which made him angry with me. He never apologized and held my reaction over my head (which was, in retrospect, shamefully tame) for the remainder of our relationship. No wonder I felt hated and worthless. I stayed for six more years, and it got worse, not better. My right to my body, and my ability to make choices, were undermined by years of abuse. I now struggle with depression, anxiety, hopelessness, and even suicidal ideation daily. Taking away women’s constitutional rights opens Pandora’s box.

Thomas and Kavannaugh, what would you have wanted the women who accused you of rape to do if they’d become pregnant as a result of your assaults? Would you have pressured them to “take care of it”? Or would you have expected them to shoulder the financial, social and emotional burdens on their own? What if you knew the pregnancies endangered their physical or mental health? Would that have swayed you to either way? Whatever the outcome, and whether women have a right to choose or not, men’s gender absolves them of responsibility. When we can’t count on the legal system, accountability becomes a matter of integrity — as CL’s post today demonstrates.

Apologies for my stream-of-consciousness rambling (what else is new?). Wiser and more articulate chumps have made far more coherent points today. It’s a such fucked up skein, but we can’t just leave.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  bread&roses

B&R, just wanted you to know I loved your post and you expressed yourself beautifully as always.

NeverSaw it coming
NeverSaw it coming
1 year ago
Reply to  bread&roses

And violent men who do not have the ability to coerce their SO to take the Plan B may resort to just removing both problems. We on this site know that shit heads do shitty things.

The right to contraception, the right to privacy in our bedrooms (between consenting adults) is next on the chopping block per Clarence.

We are in a very bad place in this country right now.

Informal
Informal
1 year ago

I told my DD to have anyone she’s having sex with to sign an iron clad waiver in case if pregnancy he is 50% responsible financially through college including medical, childcare, and all other expenses. LMAO because they aren’t enforced.
I also suggested a dick tracker for ejaculation.
Every male gets a reversible vasectomy with an agreement to support in case of failure.
I really felt less than in the world after the decision. I was getting over that feeling left over from the marriage. Now this….
I impress on my son he’s half responsible for any pregnancy.
Vote

Brit
Brit
1 year ago

Uneducated young girls/women bringing unwanted children into the world, how incredibly sad for the Mother and the child. Setting them up for a life of poverty and hardship and abuse.

It’s a hopeless situation and treat assured the Mother will be accused of living the high life on welfare.
Blamed for her child not doing well in school, getting involved in drugs.

These people who get on tv saying they will have programs to help are full of s**t.

Brenda99
Brenda99
1 year ago
Reply to  Brit

You have to examine the morality factor as well, not only the perceived future. This site itself is built on a morality factor, that is, faithfulness in relationships. So we cannot deny that morality exists. Perhaps a certain way of life brings about these problems in the first place. After all, I wouldn’t be lying if I said a lot of those mothers do live the “high life”.
But for such a person to subsequently engage in the abortion of the children that result from it, now that would be an exponential worsening and degradation of the morality factor now wouldn’t it?
So like I said…sometimes you hv to examine the morality of your actions. Poor people suffer yes, should we round them up and put them down to save them from this suffering? Would we have the superior morality then?
I hope my comment reaches you and is not deleted

Bubbachump
Bubbachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

To say it’s a certain way of life that brings unwanted pregnancy about or that causes the need for abortion is just ignoring the facts. It’s not about morality. Even if it were, do you really want immoral people raising children?

PBR
PBR
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

Well said. All actions have consequences and when the result is a human life we have no God given or constitutional right to extinguish that life. We need to spend more time educating our young women and men to be self sufficient, to protect themselves, make thoughtful choices, practice safe sex. The argument that our broken foster care system is grounds for murder is simply chilling and amoral. Even worse is Ana Navarro’s blatant promition of Eugenics on national television. Talk about dystopia.

CatsAreBetter
CatsAreBetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

Have you met anyone who is or ever has been on welfare? I have. *By design* the amount of aid provided is slightly insufficient to keep people over the poverty line, on the grounds that it’s supposed to motivate them to seek gainful employment. Means testing creates perverse incentives not to save any money, because an amount too small to make any material difference in a family’s living situation would be enough to make them ineligible for assistance. The debit cards provided instead of checks guarantee that the recipients will lose money on each transaction to bank fees, and cannot consolidate card balances. Any unexpended balance on a card is lost unless the person can find a way to get enough cash to complete a purchase.
That’s why every person on public assistance needs one or more side hustles: collecting returnable bottles, off-the-books odd jobs, reselling items left out on curbs, enrolling each parent in a different faith-based organization for charitable assistance, and more.

There are many restrictions on the types of purchases allowed on these programs, which rather cuts down on the illusion of “living high.” Diapers aren’t allowable on SNAP or WIC, and TANF does not provide enough assistance to cover them.

One family in particular that I knew had to pretend that the parents were separated because the father’s minor conviction as a juvenile would have made the family ineligible for the subsidized housing they needed to keep their children in a safe and stable situation. None of this qualifies as “living high” even by the standards of several under-developed countries where I’ve lived or done fieldwork.

Please do a little social science research and contemplate these words from your scriptures: “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me’” (Matthew 25:40 NIV).

MollyMe
MollyMe
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

Brenda, I encourage you to do some research and learn the facts about who has abortions in this country. A large percentage are married. A very large percentage already have children. But most of all, I hope you someday come to realize that your beliefs about abortion are 100% based on your religious beliefs. It’s not reasonable for you to expect others to establish our beliefs about morality based on your religious beliefs. Most of all, our laws should not be based on the religious beliefs of politicians. I truly hope you’re able to consider this.

NotAnymore
NotAnymore
1 year ago
Reply to  MollyMe

Hear hear. In fact, most people who have abortions go on to have children, so in effect it is usually just delaying a birth to a time when the child can be better cared for.

As for the “certain way of life that brings about these problems” – I’m speechless. I know it’s easier to pretend that men don’t rape, but they do, and they do it a lot. They rape women and children. 1-3 rape victims are under 17. 1 in 8 under 10. Someone is sexually assaulted every 68 seconds.

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/sexual-violence/index.html
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

2,000 babies a year are born in the US to girls under 14, and as young as 10. A ten year old cannot consent. In many states these children just lost the ability to have a medical procedure that could save their lives. So heartbreaking.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db308.htm

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago

“Perhaps a certain way of life brings about these problems in the first place. After all, I wouldn’t be lying if I said a lot of those mothers do live the “high life”.

?!!

What on earth does that mean?

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

I think maybe this would be a great conversation to have with the parents of the thirteen year old girl in Texas who became pregnant by an older boyfriend and her parents who are living at the poverty level.

Someone Online
Someone Online
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

Babies are not punishment for having sex. Sex is ok. It is ok to have sex. By the way, married people who have monogamous relationships have abortions. It is ok to want to have sex and not have a baby.

Rebecca
Rebecca
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

How true!

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

“But for such a person to subsequently engage in the abortion of the children that result from it, now that would be an exponential worsening and degradation of the morality factor now wouldn’t it?”

So you want people who are promiscuous and exposed to STDs, who drink and use drugs, to be gestating fetuses? Condemning the born child to the painful existence that is fetal alcohol syndrome and other birth defects due to drug abuse and STDs is “moral?”
Do you plan on supporting all these unwanted and damaged children with an increase in your taxes? I’m guessing not.

A pregnant woman who abuses substances has a clear moral duty to either get clean or have an abortion.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

FFS, a fetus can’t suffer and is incapable of feeling anything until about 26 weeks. There is no immorality where there is no possibility of harm. The only instances abortions happen that late in a pregnancy is to save the life of the mother.

If you are a religious moralist who believes harm does not need to be present for an act to be immoral, stop making a comparison to cheating, which absolutely causes harm, and to killing born, sentient people, which is harmful to the people themselves, to their loved ones, and to society in general.

I’m so sick of having to refute stupid arguments like this. I’ve been doing it for over twenty years and I’m tired. By all means feel free to discuss religious notions of morality with other religious people and just leave the rest of us alone. We’re grieving and we don’t need this crap.

“After all, I wouldn’t be lying if I said a lot of those mothers do live the “high life.””

Yes, you most definitely fucking would.

“Perhaps a certain way of life brings about these problems in the first place.”

You mean having sex when you don’t want children? That “way of life?”

Brit
Brit
1 year ago
Reply to  Brit

I recently found out from a friend who decided to foster one of her students. The foster home she was in was found to be abusing her. CPS told my friend they there’s no available foster homes in our county for the number of children who need them and CPS were going to remove her from the classroom and have her stay in one of the county buildings until a foster family came available. There are children actually sleeping in the hallways of county buildings because there’s not enough foster homes.

LesChump
LesChump
1 year ago

It’s very triggering, the lack of respect we experience from society and the Supreme Court, after having experienced it from our FWs. My “feminist” STBX displayed the same paternalistic thinking and unilateral decision-making: “I know what’s best for both of us! You can take care of the kids while I get my ‘needs’ met. But there’s no reason for me to consult with you about things that affect you.” It’s the same anti-choice reasoning. You can bet that my STBX didn’t take it well, the couple of times I pointed out that her actions and manipulations were exactly what we see from anti-choice forces.

It’s very simple, really. People deserve autonomy over their own bodies and minds – the ability to make informed choices. Chumps and people with uteruses alike.

Panoptichump
Panoptichump
1 year ago
Reply to  LesChump

Was wondering if you’d be on here today LesChump. I feel like they are coming for us next. I converted from a red state to a blue state to get married and raise our children safely…hugs to you. On another note… FWs are not limited to opposite sex relationships…CLEARLY.

marissachump
marissachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Panoptichump

Solidarity.

LezChump
LezChump
1 year ago
Reply to  marissachump

I’m here, Panoptichump – I just misspelled my user name above! Big hugs and solidarity to you and to marissachump. Wishing all rainbow people all the best. For sure (and sadly), there are plenty of FWs in the rainbow coalition. Already on my social media, I’m seeing a lot of same-sex parents rushing to get second parent adoptions. I’m already covered on that front, but I guess I’d better expedite the divorce…. Smh.

Someone Online
Someone Online
1 year ago

I know you say in this site that adults have sex. I am two years divorced. The only person I have ever had sex with was my ex. It wasn’t that good. I want to see what it is like to have good sex. I am 40 and pay my bills. I have an IUD and would double up with condoms. But I am deep in red territory and would have to travel many, many, many states away if my two forms of birth control failed me. Is there a penis out there worth it? I don’t know.

NotAnymore
NotAnymore
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

“Is there a penis out there worth it?“ made me think of that episode of Seinfeld where Elaine is rationing out her brith control sponges. ????

It would be funny if it wasn’t so awful and our bodily autonomy hadn’t been tossed in the trash.

But I’m in the same boat as you, when I factor in STDs, a late in life pregnancy, being cheated on again, or falling for a tinder swindler it doesn’t seem worth it. Sex to me is “fine” but nothing I can’t handle on my own with little to no difference in my life. Maybe some ladies here love d*ck but after dealing with plenty of them I genuinely don’t see what is worth putting myself out there again.

Rebecca
Rebecca
1 year ago
Reply to  NotAnymore

“Birth control sponges”!
I don’t want to tell you how poorly those worked for me.
Thank goodness they “failed” before June 2022.

Rebecca
Rebecca
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

Someone Online,

My heart shattered when I read your comment.

I was much, much older than you when I learned that ex cheated and was fine without having another partner.

To be at your age and have the stress about finding real love compounded by the now, very real, fear of an unplanned pregnancy as you search for that person with NO options available to you, is horrible.

Trust as you move forward is hard enough! Now add fear of pregnancy to the mix?

My mother was passionate about a woman’s right to choose what was best for her. She marched and protested until her 80’s. I took up the cause and marched and protested until today because I personally benefited from her marching! I DO vote and I DO reach out and make my voice count…but we lost and YOU have to pay the price for that.

I’m so, so sorry that fear of getting pregnant now has to be added to your worries as you heal and move forward from cheating.

walkbymyself
walkbymyself
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

I wouldn’t be too sure you’re going to get to keep the IUD. A number of these states have defined abortion in a way that would make IUD’s illegal, because they prevent implantation after an egg is fertilized.

Involuntary Georgian
Involuntary Georgian
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

Luckily you don’t need to worry about that, though, because Alito promised he wasn’t going to come after birth control.

The same way he promised that Roe v Wade was settled precedent, and we didn’t need to worry about that either.

Foolmoitwice
Foolmoitwice
1 year ago

So devastating to live in these times. I remember when Roe v Wade was passed. I had just entered my teens. I know at least 5 people whose lives would be irreversibly changed had they not had access to abortion. And this was not an easy decision for any one of them. Sickened that men are not held responsible in any of this and women of childbearing age have to carry this extra worry and burden each time they have sex.
My daughters are both adopted. I know the trauma adoption carries as well.

Rebecca
Rebecca
1 year ago
Reply to  Foolmoitwice

Now you know 6 women whose lives would have been irreversibly changed!

WalkawayWoman
WalkawayWoman
1 year ago
Reply to  Foolmoitwice

Foolmoitwice, thank you for bringing up adoption trauma! I’ve seen so many people on social media make comments along the lines of “well if you don’t want the baby, just place it for adoption!” It makes my blood boil.

Limbo Chumpian
Limbo Chumpian
1 year ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

Gah, I hate hate hate that argument. Adoption is an alternative to parenting. Some women don’t want to be pregnant. Because pregnancy is difficult and dangerous. Or could lead to them losing their jobs if their workplace cannot accommodate them. Or because they know if they give birth to this child, they will keep this child. They may have other children already, who will suffer from further divided resources because any additional governmental funding is seen as just encouraging people to have more children than they can afford, but have no issues with giving that money to foster parents while finding the biological family “unfit” just because they are poor.

Adoption is wonderful. This isn’t a knock on adoption. But even when chosen freely, and not coerced, still leads to a lot of trauma to the parties involved, even if it ultimately was the correct decision.

ISawTheLight
ISawTheLight
1 year ago
Reply to  Limbo Chumpian

I suffered a horrific birth injury (4th degree tear, don’t look that up without a strong stomach) that has caused permanent damage to my body. For five years I lived in constant pain and dealt with fecal incontinence. It caused a lot of shame and isolation. It’s not really something you can talk about with very many people. It took seven years before I was able to share my story (fairly anonymously) on a podcast. Physical therapy (which I started after we split) has helped quite a lot, but not completely. A second vaginal childbirth could would carry a high risk of leaving me needing a colostomy. A c-section would alleviate some of that risk, but carries risks of its own.

Anyone who argues that women should “just have the baby and give it up for adoption” are ignoring the fact that pregnancy and childbirth can wreak havoc on the human body.

My child was very much wanted and I would go through it all again for him, but I would never force that on anyone.

Not to mention the US has DIRE maternal mortality rates.

Genesis
Genesis
1 year ago
Reply to  ISawTheLight

@ISawTheLight
This is exactly my sentiment.
I suffered with gravidarum hyperemesis with all of my pregancies and required multiple hospital stays, frequent lab work and ultrasounds, and more frequent doctor appointments, specialists, and medication and IV fluids. Luckily I’m in Canada where this care is all covered. But, if I wasn’t in this country, who would pay for all of that? I was also able to get paid sick leave each time I had to stop working because of being ill during pregnancy.
It shouldn’t be a luxury to have basic health care. And people who don’t want to be pregnant shouldn’t have to be.

bread&roses
bread&roses
1 year ago
Reply to  ISawTheLight

And mortality rates for women of color, particularly Black women, are disproportionately high.

ISawTheLight
ISawTheLight
1 year ago
Reply to  bread&roses

Sadly, and infuriatingly, this is too true.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

The most frustrating thing for me is you can’t reason with these people. It’s like a cult of B cluster personality disorders: gaslighting, word salad, arguments you can’t win because the point is to make you exhaust yourself rather than address any of your (logical) points. They’ll just ignore your point and attack you on something else.

I hate to throw around medical diagnoses, but watching forced birthers argue has given me serious flashbacks to my cluster B family of origin. They don’t believe in science, they don’t fight fair, and they lie. They don’t even remember history correctly, they’ll just rewrite it in their heads because they can’t be responsible for anything, everything needs to be your fault.

You can’t reason with delusional people who don’t operate in reality and who’ll argue with you about basic facts. It’s impossible. I’m estranged from my relatives now for my own safety but it’s disheartening to see a significant chunk of the population behaves this way, and many of them are in public office.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

Totally agree, Cam. I’ve had success over the years stumping them and leaving them with no further arguments, but their minds still cannot be opened to accept facts and reality. So it’s a pointless exercise.
I do think many of them are disordered and viciously authoritarian by nature, but just as many are merely too intellectually ill equipped (to use a polite term) to get it.

Cerise
Cerise
1 year ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

Regarding adoption, my late Dad gave a stunning deathbed confession: at 17 he fathered a child who was put up for adoption (this was in the 1950’s).

Well, fast forward through Google and I made contact with this long-lost half brother— who was not interested in his new-found siblings, but instead was consumed to the point of obsession that he was “unwanted from birth”. It was awful.

Just a reminder that adoption isn’t necessarily the magic happy Disney solution to unplanned babies. And not every baby put up for adoption finds a home – look at Romania under Ceaucescu.

Someone Online
Someone Online
1 year ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

Or some bright eyed woman, “I’ll adopt your baby that you don’t abort!” Because babies are little blank slates. They don’t seem like real, actual human beings the way the 400,000 kids in foster care are. They’re not complicated. It’s the fantasy of parenthood without the reality of personhood. Every aspect of this conversation just makes me more and more mad. I am going to be spewing angst on Chump Lady all day today. Gah.

bread&roses
bread&roses
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

On the radio, I heard some bright-eyed anti-choice woman from Mississippi boasting that this will “actually be really good for women.” Where to begin…?

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

Expect human trafficking including child porn to skyrocket too. Women and babies are already viewed as commodities on the black market. Imagine how it’ll get with a “domestic supply of (white) infants” for sale.

Meanwhile, sex traffickers will continue selling prostituted women and girls for rape, then sell their babies for even more profits.

I’m a businesswoman and this is immediately where my mind went. So believe me when I say human traffickers are already thinking about these implications too.

I don’t say this to scare anyone, but forewarned is forearmed.

ChumpInCharge
ChumpInCharge
1 year ago

I really needed some ChumpNation support today after seeing my narcissist ex yesterday but… never mind

LezChump
LezChump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpInCharge

ChumpinCharge: You can find us in the Reddit group. There’s also a Facebook group. And there will always be tomorrow, on the CL site. I appreciate CL allowing many of us to vent about our trauma on this issue today.

Almost Monday
Almost Monday
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpInCharge

We get it. Grey rock, no contact and Chump Lady archives in the meantime.

WalkawayWoman
WalkawayWoman
1 year ago

What I reacted to was Amy Coney Barrett’s remarks (from earlier this year) about safe haven laws and adoption being the panacea for abortion. Incredibly obtuse of her, particularly since she’s the adoptive mom of two children from Haiti.
Adoption is problematic even in the most ideal set of circumstances. It causes lifelong trauma for everyone involved.
I was adopted as an infant, within my ethnicity/nationality, and had a normal childhood and loving parents. And still, I’m here to say, adoption should be just one limb on the decision tree. That doesn’t give SCOTUS the right to arbitrarily chop off another vital limb.
Banning abortion isn’t about protecting babies. If it was, anti-abortion advocates would be working to enact legislation that would make it a little less hard to be a parent in this country. Paid parental leave. Subsidized childcare. Just to name a couple.
(And Tracy, in Sweden, the government steps in and pays the child support that the deadbeats shirk. The deadbeats the end up owing the government, which affects their credit, their ability to buy a home or a car, etc.)
If it’s about protecting babies, help the babies and their parents. If it’s about keeping the boot of power and privilege on the necks of poor people and minorities, ban abortion.

Nut Cluster Free Zone
Nut Cluster Free Zone
1 year ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

Amy Coney Barrett’s aunt-in-law lives with her, her husband and their brood. A live-in carer/nanny. I hope Amy and her spouse at least pay for the aunt’s health insurance.

walkbymyself
walkbymyself
1 year ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

I don’t suppose anyone ever challenged Amy Boney Carrot’s logic … but if safe haven laws obviate the need for abortion, why do we even need anti-abortion laws at all? By all means, let’s provide strong, effective and robust support for all mothers. If abortions simply go away of their own accord, there’s no more need for antiabortion legislation, and if they don’t … we’ve learned a valuable lesson.

These people all live in a universe where there’s no particular reason to get an abortion except the shame and stigma of single motherhood. That hasn’t been the case for literally decades, and yet they live in the delusions of their own teenage years, back in the 50’s or 40’s.

Involuntary Georgian
Involuntary Georgian
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

That’s what struck me as well. People celebrating the ruling were saying “well, now we need to get down to work to provide support for all these women who will be giving birth to kids they didn’t want”. How about doing that beforehand? If you could provide enough support that women didn’t turn to abortion out of desperation, you wouldn’t need to ban it. This should not be controversial. *Everyone* would be happy if there were enough support that women who accidentally got pregnant felt they could carry to term voluntarily. That’s the ethical way to reduce the abortion rate. If you can’t pull that off … maybe this society isn’t ready to care for a tidal wave of unwanted babies.

Limbo Chumpian
Limbo Chumpian
1 year ago

There is a not insignificant portion of the population that believes supporting women and families through government assistance incentivizes them having more children. More direct aid to the child such as school lunch programs garners greater bipartisan support, but parents need direct assistance for everything else. I had a relative outright tell me that he believed that people should just have their children taken from them if they can’t afford them even though it would mean the government would still be paying for these children in the foster care system. There was a GOP gubernatorial candidate about a decade ago who compared government assistance to feeding strays and encouraging further breeding. Talk about dehumanizing.

Limbo Chumpian
Limbo Chumpian
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

I wholeheartedly support more financial resources for families so that no one feels compelled to abort a pregnancy solely for financial reasons. I find it heartbreaking to think that someone would choose to have a child if only their finances would allow it. But, the need for abortion will always exist because pregnancy is inherently dangerous, though admittedly more dangerous in the US than it should be. I have a relative that would like to have more children, but had a very dangerous cervical tear during her first delivery that resulted in severe hemorrhaging and the need for a blood transfusion and was told she should not risk another pregnancy.

LezChump
LezChump
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

There’s a great NYTimes article about how the number of U.S. abortions has halved since their high point in the late 1970s, and are fewer now even than before Roe vs. Wade. The main reason is that oral contraceptives are so much more effective now. Heaven forbid what will happen to those numbers if oral contraceptives are targeted next.

Lots of great details, too, about the other demographics of abortion in the U.S.:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-gets-abortions-in-america.html?referringSource=articleShare

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  LezChump

I also appreciate advances in DNA tech since Roe, and wonder why I haven’t heard anything about legislation which identifies and persecutes the other party without whom pregnancy would be impossible…….

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

>I don’t suppose anyone ever challenged Amy Boney Carrot’s logic

I imagine people have, but you’d be more productive talking to a brick wall.

I was acquainted a number of years ago with a woman who was a devoted Catholic. She kept getting pregnant and absolutely SUFFERED through every single one. She vomited all 9 months and would be bedridden. She suffered a few miscarriages, too.

Needless to say, her mental health deteriorated. Her doctor told her not to get pregnant anymore, but she believed all birth control were “abortifacients.” Both her doctor and I argued this point with her to no avail. Birth control was murder and nobody could convince her otherwise.

I suggested no penetrative sex. She said her husband “had needs.”

I suggest her husband get a vasectomy. She said he’d never agree to that because it’d be too much of a strain on him.

I suggested her husband was a selfish dick who prioritized his orgasm over her literal life and health and she should invest in a vibrator and dump him. Our friendship didn’t survive that conversation.

Beth
Beth
1 year ago
Reply to  WalkawayWoman

Sadly, you are correct. It was never about babies. It is about power.

Brenda99
Brenda99
1 year ago
Reply to  Beth

It’s more about morality…I’ve noticed no one here examines the part of it to do with morality.

CatsAreBetter
CatsAreBetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

Matthew :1-3 NIV “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”

Shann
Shann
1 year ago
Reply to  CatsAreBetter

Thank YOU????♥️

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

So if I want to have sex and don’t want children, get pregnant and end the pregnancy I am immoral?

What is your proposed alternative?

Shann
Shann
1 year ago

I Think I’ve been booted from calling myself Christian. I am so torn and thought she was my ultimate savior and redeemer and all that?!? This is exactly why religion SUCKS. Rules and rituals, specific standards in order to “belong”
I’m so nauseous. I’ve been on BOTH sides. And now my daughter too. It wasn’t easy but I stood right by her side and trusted her decision. Yes I cried a little. Yes I knew it was for the best. No I never wanted her to feel that pain to make that decision. To see the picket signs. To have to walk through those doors. To lay on that table. Nothing about this choice is fast or easy.

LezChump
LezChump
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

Brenda99 – I’ll take the bait on morality. It’s immoral to force, or even seriously pressure, a woman to carry a baby to term. Jewish tradition explicitly considers a fetus a “limb” of the mother until the infant’s birth, rather than an independent being. That’s my belief; for someone else to impose their religion on me is unethical and against American constitutional principles. Every religious/spiritual tradition on Earth recognizes life as enduring between first breath and last breath. Any differing interpretation that disrespects the bodily autonomy of living people is immoral.

Rebecca
Rebecca
1 year ago
Reply to  LezChump

Thank you for your post LezChump!
I too am Jewish. I was always taught that Judaism believe the fetus is an “extension” of the mother and not considered a separate life until birth.
I personally would extend that until viability. Viability did not exist when the Judaic texts were written.
How can a country founded on the separation of church and state impose religious beliefs on my right to follow my own religion???

Marya
Marya
1 year ago
Reply to  Rebecca

Exactly! I’m Jewish too. Jewish law is so committed to the idea that a fetus is not a separate person that my rabbi said it was inappropriate to name or even say prayers for my (very much wanted) baby who was born prematurely at 26 weeks and only lived for a few hours.

LezChump
LezChump
1 year ago
Reply to  Marya

I’m so sorry to hear about your experience, Marya. I certainly hope the rabbi included YOU and your living family in the Mi Shebeirach and other prayers at that sad time. I will voice your name this Shabbat. ((Hugs))

Bees
Bees
1 year ago
Reply to  LezChump

Amen.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

It isn’t actually about morality. The moral thing to do would be to prevent unwanted births and support born children who are in need. They have absolutely no interest in what happens to born children, so it’s safe to say they don’t really care about the unborn either. They are trying to control women and curtail our freedom to be sexual. They want to force consequences on us for engaging in non-procreative sex.

pennstategirl
pennstategirl
1 year ago
Reply to  Brenda99

I am unsure of what you mean by morality. Can you clarify your comment? Thanks!!

MamaMeh
MamaMeh
1 year ago

Tracy, thank you for shrieking at them on my behalf, I’m not even in your country but overwhelmed with shock and despair. I thought getting rid of Trump meant the threat of Gilead retreated, but I forgot about his rigged judicial system legacy. Contraception will be the next target.

And thank you for as usual finding wit in the whole damn thing (“set them to vibrate. The technology exists.”)

UXworld
UXworld
1 year ago

The majority uses as the major part of its argument that “privacy”, from which the abortion right is derived, is not itself in the text of the Constitution. So apparently there is no protection for it at a federal level.

Clarence Tomas has put America on notice: contraception, same sex marriage and same sex sex are next on the docket.

Please vote accordingly, this and every year, because this particular court and its mindset will be with us for a very long time.

TheDivineMissChump
TheDivineMissChump
1 year ago

Control. Power. Ownership. Abuse. It all comes in many forms, some far more insidious than others.
To poorly paraphrase a lyric from A Change is Gonna Come, womankind in this land of the free and the brave have been ‘knocked back down to our knees’.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago

All states have laws on the books and will retain those laws for the termination of the pregnancy when the mothers life health and safety are threatened. (Entoptic pregnancy, advanced age, pre eclampsia etc.. to name a few). They were on the books even before Roe v Wade. All liberal states will have even more inclusive abortion laws coming (up to and after birth) and will be definitely keeping the ones they currently have. Ohio, as the example you used, is not a conservative state but a swing state. It is beyond reason to fear Ohio will possibly bring back Dred Scott or existing abortion legislation will disappear. As far as bringing up babies, that is the crux of everything because we were ALL babies at one time and ALL resided is in the uterus at one time…..we ALL resided safely in our mothers womb. Babies are people and have rights no matter their location. The Supreme Court did not decide that particular morality only it be returned to the states. But our nation feels two ways about the morality of the issue. To each who aborts for whatever reason is not a innocuous tumor or body part. But the destruction of a human being. It is the purposeful death of said baby.

Dude-ette
Dude-ette
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Gramchump, with all due respect, “we ALL resided safely in our mother’s womb” is not true. One example: The perpetrator of the Parkland shooting in FL had/has severe Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. In no way was he a safe fetus, his troubled life has been documented, and FAS certainly led to the murders at Parkland High School.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  Dude-ette

I don’t understand your logic. So does that mean every child that has a potential for fetal alcohol syndrome (from pregnant female alcoholics) should be aborted ‘just in case’ they grow up to be a school shooter because you were able to name two?? What about other FAS kids who never hurt anyone. Also what about other mass shootings that did not have FAS?

LezChump
LezChump
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

No. Gramchump, you’re using a logical fallacy that we call “reductio ad absurdem,” or characterizing an opposing argument as ridiculous. Dude-ette did not suggest that all in-danger pregancies should be aborted. D pointed out, quite rightly, that your earlier statement (that we all were safe in gestation) was too general to be correct. We have NOT all been safe; many harms can come to fetuses in utero. Certainly, many harms can come to the owner of the uterus, too. It is up to the owner of the uterus, in consultation with medical professionals, to decide whether a safe environment can be provided or not. Obviously, opinions will differ on whether the environment has been safe, and living children might have to bear the consequences of poor gestational health. That’s reason #1,001,752 why we need comprehensive, affordable health care and social services in the U.S. These services would also have the wonderful effect of mitigating/preventing more high-risk pregnancies in the first place.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  LezChump

Thank you for the clarification. I see what Dudette was trying to convey. There is always risk in the womb. There is always risk outside the womb. Certainly one can mitigate those higher risks through intervention, social services, affordable accessable health care, screening but not purposeful killing of life. The ends do not justify the means. This is not religious, it is the code of ethics of our nation that taking a life is viewed as unjust.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Bullshit. It’s Christians and other fundamentalists religious types who claim a fetus is a person and that therefore taking that life should be unlawful. It’s a minority imposing their morality on the majority.
You know that perfectly well. So please give the sophistry a rest.

Chumpy
Chumpy
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

Actually, there are people who are not Christian or fundamentalist anything who don’t agree with abortion on demand, but maybe just in some circumstances and I would necessarily not say they are a minority.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpy

I’m sure they exist but they are definitely the minority. Can you name any influential forced birth activist/lobby groups that aren’t religious based or at least made up of mostly religious people?
It isn’t the odd individual who might not be religious who pushed for this ruling, who has been planning this for decades and stacking the court accordingly, it’s these lobby groups and the whores they own in the Republican party who do their bidding.

MollyMe
MollyMe
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Gramchump, I believe you’re confusing morality with your religious beliefs. Your religious belief is that abortion is “the destruction of a human being. It is the purposeful death of said baby.” Other religions don’t believe that. Morality is what a person believes is right and what is wrong. For example, it was against my religious beliefs to eat meat on Friday but it was not immoral for me to eat meat on Friday. You know the saying “you can’t legislate morality” and it’s still as true today as it ever was. Passing a law to make something illegal (which by definition is punishable by law) doesn’t make it immoral; while you can punish their behavior, you can’t make a person believe what they did was wrong.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  MollyMe

Morality is always legislated. For example murder is immoral act that is legislated. Stealing also morally wrong that is legislated. On and on it goes where morality is the imputus for law. Perjury (lying) morally wrong also legislated. All legislation is based in moral judgements for the ethos of a nation.

MollyMe
MollyMe
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Gram, I’ll try to explain again. We cannot legislate morality because morality is an internal belief system, it’s what you believe inside of yourself and no one can legislate that. Punishing someone for committing an act that you or I consider immoral doesn’t change that person’s morality. Jailing or fining the guy who doesn’t pay his income tax doesn’t change his internal belief that he shouldn’t have to pay taxes. We punish the behavior but we can’t force anyone to believe that certain things are wrong. The entire purpose of this website deals with exactly that – some people don’t believe infidelity is wrong and so they do it. They might suffer through a divorce because of it, they might even get shot by someone over it but they still believe it’s an OK thing to do. And yet those of us who believe it to be immoral and wrong don’t get to make it illegal or punishable by imprisoning or fining them. And even if we could imprison cheaters, it wouldn’t change their internal belief system.

Gram, I admire your courage and tenacity to continue this discussion where you are so outnumbered in terms of opinions about women’s right to reproductive freedom. So please take these thoughts as I intend them, which is not to pile up on you at all, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Wrong again, Gram. The purpose of law is to keep peace and order, not enforce morality. Obviously if we were allowed to kill each other willy nilly, there could be no peace or order. If we were allowed to lie on the stand, the justice system would become useless at enforcing peace and order. The same applies for any example you can come up with.
Law is also about protecting people’s legal rights. Now SCOTUS has violated the principles of law and enforced religious morality. This is not healthy for any society. It violates the separation of church and state and it violates women’s constitutional rights.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

“Laws protect our general safety, and ensure our rights as citizens against ABUSES by other people, by organizations, and by the government itself.”
“Legal enforcement of moral norms against causing harm. Any comprehensive morality includes restraints against harming other people. Murder, assault, theft, and fraud are immoral.”

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

How accommodating of you to admit that forced birth, being harmful and an abuse of the person by the government, is both immoral by your own self-professed standards and therefore by your standards it should also be illegal. Thank you. I guess we can expect your support in fighting this ruling that gives the the state the right to abuse women amd endanger their health. After all, you said it yourself. No take backs.

Yes, it’s murder that’s illegal, not killing, and not all killing is murder. For example, a patient in a persistent vegetative state can be terminated. Like a fetus, they do not posses sentience and therefore can’t be harmed. Thus they require no rights. In the state they are in they cannot benefit from them. Your arguments actually support a pro-choice position. Are you really not aware of that?

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Wrong. In Texasistan, all abortions are illegal after the 6th week of pregnancy. No exceptions.

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Morality is much more complex than you are admitting. Difficult moral choices arise when two rights or two wrongs are pitted against each other–not the easy choice of a right against a wrong. So even if someone finds abortion immoral (and many people do not), it is still a problem when the choice of forcing a 12-year-old to give birth is pitted against an abortion, or when a woman who is the victim of stealthing is pitted against an abortion, or a woman who knows she will be illegally fired and lose her ability to keep a roof over the head of her 2 kids is pitted against an abortion. In each of these cases, the Supreme Court has decided that someone other than the woman can decide what moral vision to enforce even when the woman has herself been the victim of immoral behavior. And, of course, many of us believe that regardless of anyone’s view of morality, any decision about a woman’s body should be made in consultation with her doctor and the spiritual advisors of her choice–and no on else.

Informal
Informal
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Trauma is also generational. All babies are not safely protected within the womb. Women who carry babies through abuse- family, partner, work place, addiction is all passed to that baby. No escaping it or it’s future effects.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Over the years I have found there is no way to reach somebody who holds the irrational belief that non-sentient beings have any use for constitutional rights, let alone the right to take over another person’s body and threaten her health. You can’t change an irrational mind and facts mean nothing to such people. They live in a bubble.

Every pregnancy is inherently risky. Almost all have some kind of complication, usually not life threatening, but often making it difficult and stressful to continue to work and be active. Back pain and fatigue are extremely common.
How dare anyone dictate that others should take that risk and bear that stress. How dare anyone curtail the freedom of another to live her life as she feels is best for her and her health. I am sick at heart over this. Plus it’s only going to get worse.

I’m beyond childbearing age now, but if I was not, I have a condition that would make pregnancy dangerous for me.
I’m also allergic to latex and spermicides, the pill makes me ill and an IUD made me bleed like a stuck pig. Lots of women are in the same boat. Anti-choicers don’t really care about “babies”, they just want to punish women for their sexuality and keep it under state control.

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

I was not safe in my mother’s womb. She was an alcoholic. So was my father. So were/are most of my relatives.

I’ve spent my entire adult life overcoming the effects of their abuse and neglect. I don’t know how successful I have been.
When I was thirteen years old I wanted to stay home instead of going to get a Christmas tree, an argument which ended with me lying on the floor and my dad kicking me. I recently realized that at almost 59 years old, the only experience of love I may have ever had with a family member is the relationship I have with my daughter.

To be honest, if I’d had a choice as a fetus in 1963, and knew what I was in for after I was born, I would have aborted myself.

Dobby is a Free Chump
Dobby is a Free Chump
1 year ago

Velvet,

I am so glad you are here. I am so sorry that you have suffered so much. I don’t post often… You have been such a blessing to me because of your posts. I may never have been strong enough to leave without reading your posts for the last year. I got out with my kids and we are safe from emotional abuse now. I call you one of my “flashlight people.” When I was stuck in the cycle of emotional abuse, it was like being in a very dark cave. And several people in my world came into my dark space holding flashlights to show me the path to walk so I could come into the light. And I walked out with them. Your words helped rescue me. I hate that you had to suffer and hope you can find peace and safety and joy. But I am truly grateful for your strength and hope you know that you are a beacon for others….

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago

Good morning, Dobby.

Many thanks and a big hug. Tracy let me know you had posted this.

❤️

Dobbyisafreechump
Dobbyisafreechump
1 year ago

????????

DeadbeatKarma
DeadbeatKarma
1 year ago

“To be honest, if I’d had a choice as a fetus in 1963, and knew what I was in for after I was born, I would have aborted myself.”

I feel this on a gutteral level. Just because some people are physically
and/ or financially able to have a child does not mean that they should…

Sometimes the most loving thing a potential parent can ever do is to not allow them to be born and brought up in a highly dysfunctional situation in the first place.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago

That is really sad to hear. That you wish you were never born. You have been such a blessing on this board and can only imagine a wonderful person for those that know you outside of this blog. Very sad that you would actually chose to end such a good beautiful needed life. Life for you hasn’t been easy but, your daughter who obviously loves you tremendously would disagree. I’m sure she is thankful for you every single day.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Hey Gram, you sound like a good person. I can hear that you really care. Sounds like we agree that life is sacred and we want people to be healthy and safe.

So, sincere question, how do you suggest we limit abortions?

Outlawing it won’t limit it, women will just die in droves. This is a fact. We know it from history, from the US to Romania. You can’t regulate women’s bodies without killing us. I wish it were otherwise, but these are the cards we’re dealing with.

We can’t prevent rape, birth defects, or the inherent danger of pregnancy. We can, for sure, minimize them. We could toughen laws on rapists and deadbeats who don’t pay child support. We could mandate easy access to birth control and better social safety nets like universal healthcare and paid parental leave. Unwanted pregnancies would go down and women and children would have higher survival rates with decent quality of life. Republicans consistently vote against these measures though.

So, what do you suggest we do?

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

Hi Cam,
The Supreme Court handed back to the states abortion legislation. In most states abortion laws will not change and some will get much more lenient. The states becoming far more lenient and accessable will not make abortions rare but more commonplace. The fire bombing done on crisis pregnancy centers is counterproductive. These centers aid mothers to be in many practical ways that want to find a way to keep their babies and just need some help. We can also have sterner laws making the father’s of these children forceably pay child support at a much higher ratio with penalty of jail time if they don’t and/or assets taken. Provide daycare and respite care for mothers free of charge. Support groups where mom’s talk to eachother. We need to treat each other with kindness and be there for one another as a whole community taking care of the youngest most vulnerable to our elderly similar of how people pulled together during the great depression. We are not an island into ourselves. These are a few ways, I’m sure there are many more. Anything is a better solution than death.

Lee Chump
Lee Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

GC: There really are some things worse than death. I have witnessed them too many times. On another note, I have white privilege and more resources if traveling for medical care is needed. Of course, I am long past child bearing age and I cringe thinking about some of the women with far less resources than I have dealing with trying to get to an expensive destination just because the medical care is not available close to where they live. If they already have one child or more, they are fighting (in many cases) to support that child(ren). Yes, adults have sex; sometimes they are forced to make difficult choices. Now the choice is not with the woman.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

>The Supreme Court handed back to the states abortion legislation. In most states abortion laws will not change and some will get much more lenient.

Right. And a dozen states have already outlawed abortion or will within the next month, with few exceptions for rape or incest.

What’s your solution for all the women who will die when abortion is outlawed?

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Other states are coming after the abortion laws in my state. Mike Pence said he seeks a federal ban.
A federal ban is the objective of the anti-abortion agenda, as I understand the situation, which IMHO is hypocritical if one defends overturning Roe saying the decision belongs to the states. If you can’t federally protect abortion, you can’t say the decision belongs to the states and then federally legislate against it.

A founding principle of this country is the separation of church and state, which is another point of contention from me

Ginger_Superpowers
Ginger_Superpowers
1 year ago

Not anymore. The Supremes voted 6-3 that a teacher/coach prayer can lead a prayer with students as a function of his free speech.

This court is out of control.

IcanseeTuesday
IcanseeTuesday
1 year ago

I’m looking forward to future football games filled with Muslim prayer rugs, shrines, torahs, bells, psychedelic mushrooms, etc. I have confidence in the creativity of students. Half-time is going to be great!

Nut Cluster Free Zone
Nut Cluster Free Zone
1 year ago
Reply to  IcanseeTuesday

Don’t forget the Wiccans ????‍♀️ ????

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

It’s a fact that I have had to work very hard, with zero family support, for any enjoyment of life or semblance of mental health I may have.

But it’s also a fact that I never would have known such pain and suffering, and been oblivious, had I been aborted as a fetus.

An embryo is not a fetus is not a baby. There are developmental stages, and I don’t believe I or anyone else should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term it they are in those early stages of development and do not want to have a baby.

❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
❤️ Velvet Hammer ❤️
1 year ago

Further, my father, like many alcoholic men, was also violent. DV on all
levels was part of the fabric of daily life.

When I got pregnant at 16, I sought and got an abortion without the knowledge of my parents with the assistance of Planned Parenthood.
(I had stopped using birth control pills and was using condoms with my boyfriend, not knowing that fertility can ramp up when you stop using pills…..)

In other words, a woman’s life being in danger because of a pregnancy is not always because of medical issues.

Congratulations if your life experiences are so bucolic and idyllic that this never crossed your mind. I say that in earnest, and not with sarcasm. What comes to mind is the case of a teenager who got pregnant, hid the fact from her parents by wearing baggy clothes, gave birth alone in a trailer on the back acreage of her parents ranch, and left the newborn alone in the trailer to die.

Twice.

Shann
Shann
1 year ago

Velvet I have chills reading this…I had To go downtown courthouse where my 18 year old best friend took me. I was 16 and not living at home. I knew there was no way to have a baby. I got granted permission stating that my parents don’t even know where I am most nights let alone need to know if I am pregnant or not(there’s NO WAY either could’ve helped me). It was such a traumatizing process and for years I begged for forgiveness
Like I said earlier it was for the best I’m sure you agree
But it’s not like we don’t live with the aftermath

WalkawayWoman
WalkawayWoman
1 year ago

VH, same, but for a different reason: my birth mother is a child of alcoholics. As a result, she practically had to raise herself. Not surprisingly, she became pregnant with me at age 14. Concealed her pregnancy well into her third trimester and was then promptly shipped off to a home for unwed mothers, where I was born and immediately taken from her.
People say to us adoptees, “But aren’t you glad your mother didn’t abort you?”
My response is, I’m happy to be alive. But I would rather a scared 14-year-old with zero family support would have been able to access a safe abortion.

Shann
Shann
1 year ago

So sad. I’m sorry. Maybe a lot of us have felt this? I know I have. And I cherish that relationship you mentioned with your daughter. It’s also the best one I’ve had♥️ That’s one of the reasons we’re here. Not to mention I look for your name in these posts. Thank you
God bless you always

Lee Chump
Lee Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Shann

Velvet and Shann: I cherish those mother-daughter relationships also. God bless both of you. I look forward to both of your posts. Take care.

Shann
Shann
1 year ago
Reply to  Lee Chump

Lee you as well God Bless always. Thanks so much for being here it really does mean a lot!!

Happy Now
Happy Now
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Maybe your religious belief tells you that a fertized egg is a baby, Grandchump, but neither my religion nor science tells me that. But now the court has imposed their, and your, religious belief on me and my body. Fuck that.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  Happy Now

Traditional abortions as is the topic do not happen right at the fertilization of the egg nor anywhere around it. At this time the woman is not aware she is even pregnant. This is a moot and poor argument to make. The vast majority of abortions happen after there is a heartbeat (post 5 1/2 to 6 weeks gestation) or later..sometimes much much later. Within the womb there is an individual with separate unique DNA, biological sex, and heartbeat among many many other complexities. An abortion kills this individual. If that is justified by you to do so freely, then this is your religion.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

So if you have DNA and a heartbeat, you’re an individual person? Ridiculous.
You’re an individual person when you are sentient, capable of feelings and the rudimentary thoughts that begin to make up your personality. That does not happen until late in pregnancy. That’s science.
You can’t kill a potential person, you can only kill an actual person. You can’t harm that which is incapable of feeling and perceiving the harm.
Fetuses don’t need rights. Without sentience, they can’t be hurt by having their rights violated. It’s women who are being hurt. If that is justified by you to do so freely, hurting women is your religion.

Marm
Marm
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

That “individual” aka fetus is not viable outside the womb at 6 weeks of gestation. Many fertilized eggs that are implanted in the uterus spontaneously miscarry. Will you prosecute these mothers as murderers whose body has rejected an unfit fertilization ? How will you identify them ? Many spontaneous miscarriages happen early in the pregnancy, to girls and women who did not even know they were pregnant. Some may not ever know they had been pregnant.

A mother who is not physically, emotionally, financially able to bear a child should be commended for making the best choice that saves HER life. Many of the women that I know who had an abortion had a child that was cherished, at a better time in her life when she was able to be a good parent.

These pseudo moral statements about the supposed potential of the unborn individual are in contrast to the actual resources available to poor/abused/addicted/marginalized women, the women in terrible relationships, the women with negative physical, mental, social issues. The women, for whatever reasons, who do not want children and used birth control 100% of the time but still got pregnant.

This hangup about the potential positive aspects of the fetus are a different kind of hopium. Some of those fetuses will become be terrible people, worse than you could ever imagine. Do you ever think about that potential ?

You have no say over another woman’s body or her autonomy.

What about all the beating hearts in actual alive post-baby humans who cannot afford housing, or even food ? Do you ever wonder about their potential ?

pennstategirl
pennstategirl
1 year ago
Reply to  Happy Now

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^ 100%

BrokenPicker
BrokenPicker
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

What the heck is an abortion law “up to and after birth”?? After birth is not abortion. Wasn’t that some propaganda spewed by Trump?

Dude-ette
Dude-ette
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

In the early 90s, I had two young children. I became pregnant for a third time. I had a d&c, performed by my ob/gyn. My life was not in danger. Therefore, according to some state laws, now enacted, this procedure would be criminal.

Why did I have the d&c? Because I was miscarrying. My ob/gyn assured me that the fetus was not viable and that my best chance of having another baby would be to clear my uterus.

Thanks to the medical procedure, I became pregnant shortly after and my third child is now a beautiful, talented, successful 27-year-old.

This is not a black or white, one and done issue. Life happens in the gray, the in-between. My CHOICE allowed me to bring my third child into the world.

Involuntary Georgian
Involuntary Georgian
1 year ago
Reply to  Dude-ette

My XW had an ectopic pregnancy that the ob was “80%” sure wouldn’t be viable (because it was right at the end of the Fallopian tube). So, probably not a viable pregnancy, but probably not life-threatening (though probably a significant risk to her future fertility). We aborted, and she got pregnant with our third child a few months later. It’s hard to know what would have happened if the medical decision had been subject to some legislative test, but if it had been prohibited odds are that today I’d only have two kids instead of three. In what way would that have benefited anyone?

Dude-ette
Dude-ette
1 year ago

I’m so happy your wise choice provided you three children. My three are my primary source of pride and joy and happiness. The biggest sorrows re my cheating ex aren’t the personal consequences for me, but for the intact family that my children lost.

The thing that drives me nuts about the pro fetus v pro choice argument is that the pro fetus people tend to argue in absolutes. It is not immoral to provide women with the reproductive care they require.

IcanseeTuesday
IcanseeTuesday
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

The republican gubernatorial candidate in my state does not support ANY exceptions. He did attend the violent January 6th coup attempt to stop a peaceful transfer of power. So, laws and life mean little to him.

Marm
Marm
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Abortion does not kill a “baby”. What is growing inside a mother is a fetus. Do not cloud this issue with your intentional misuse of language. If your heart is set on preventing abortion, then you better saddle up and throw your heartfelt efforts at PREVENTING conception. This means access to free or very cheap contraception for anyone who asks for it – even if you disapprove of them, because of their age or anything else. This includes education about this, even to the very young. You need to increase your donations to reliable, scientific research to create a safe and 100% effective birth control. I hope you’ve spent the many years you’ve been alive fostering children, and mothers who were not prepared emotionally, intellectually, financially, socially to raise that baby.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  Marm

Marm, I would say you are the one using semantics with words. All people like yourself start in utero (you can ascribe any name whatsoever). Whatever term used does not change what it is; the purposeful killing or the extermination of that life in utero and what’s more an innocent one.

Marm
Marm
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

But some of the former babies that live among us are very BAD people. Like the US lawmakers who overturned Roe vs Wade. And all the Chumps here have had their hearts broken and worse by a former baby partner – now an adult human. I don’t believe that all forms of “life” are innocent, nor will they remain so. In nature, many more creatures are born than survive into adulthood. If you feel so strongly about these human babies – what are you personally doing to help the ones that are already here ? I hope you have educated your sons about their responsibility to NEVER ejaculate inside any woman, unless they are absolutely sure that they are ready and able to be committed to that woman for LIFE if she happens to bear their child, including all financial and emotional commitments to raising that child with kindness.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Marm used their words correctly: the cells inside a woman are a fetus, not a baby. I’m sorry their statement didn’t align with your beliefs, but welcome to reality.

That “life in utero” is equally welcome to survive on its own outside the womb, but it wouldn’t. Guess it’s not so alive after all.

Marianne
Marianne
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

We also do not require people to use their bodies to keep other people alive. No one is forced to donate a kidney to a match. No one can be forced to donate blood. No one is forced to donate organs after death. If a human life cannot survive on its own it’s not considered immoral for others to not step up to hand over a kidney. So removing a fetus is consistent with that.

NotAnymore
NotAnymore
1 year ago
Reply to  Marianne

Exactly. The state cannot force you to save someone else’s life by risking your own.

A few years ago I was denied treatment while seeking X-ray of my foot at a Christian hospital without submitting to a pregnancy test. I hadn’t had sex in months, there was no way I was pregnant, my stomach was obviously flat, my foot is nowhere near my uterus, and I’m sure an ER pregnancy test would have cost something ridiculous.

This hospital treated the imaginary potential of a fetus as more important than my broken bones.

marissachump
marissachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Marianne

EXACTLY!!

BetterDays
BetterDays
1 year ago
Reply to  Marm

The anti-abortion activists behind these laws have made it clear they believe the birth control pill, IUDs and IVF all destroy life (fertilized eggs) and should be outlawed. And naturally the morning-after pill is straight-up murder. The argument goes that if hormonal birth control fails to prevent ovulation and then you’ve got a fertilized egg that can’t implant, you’ve destroyed life. IVF involves the destruction of fertilized eggs to get a viable one, so that’s out too. When state legislatures (looking at you, Louisiana, Oklahoma, etc) define life as beginning at fertilization, this is the path we’re on. There will be no effective birth control available because it all has the potential to destroy a fertilized egg. Back to a world where the risk of sex and pregnancy for woman is enormous while for men … boys just wanna have fun, amiright?

nothisfriend
nothisfriend
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Really? Because I thought the Texas law and the Louisiana law had no provisions for rape, incest or health of the mother?

Someone Online
Someone Online
1 year ago
Reply to  Gramchump

Please do a state by state read. Not all states allow for termination in instances like ectopic pregnancy. Advanced age doesn’t even enter the conversation. Also, look up how “health and safety” is actually implemented. Usually it means immediate threat. As in, the pregnant person is septic and the antibiotics aren’t working and they are actively dying. Look up the case of the woman vacationing in Malta. That is our future in the U.S.

Someone Online
Someone Online
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

To expand, I am seeing a lot of people who see themselves as “pro-life” stating that obviously the state laws allow for the abortion exceptions that they themselves feel to be reasonable. But the legislation is not inherently logical. It does not need to have the exemptions you feel are reasonable. Also, some state legislators (like Texas) have put IVF providers and families in a pickle. Read the legislation rather than assuming that legislators are reasonable people with a realistic understanding of reproductive biology.

MollyMe
MollyMe
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

I share your sentiments. If I can piggyback on your train of thought, don’t you find it hard to understand how someone can be so adamant that a fetus is a baby created by their God and that killing it is murder but in the next breath “Oh, wait, that baby came from a rapist so it’s OK to kill it before it’s born.” They either have their religious belief or they don’t. AND, if they believe in any restrictions at all, why are they so unwilling to allow women to make these decisions? Bottom line is, I trust women. The hypocrisy of it all really gets to me sometimes.

Gramchump
Gramchump
1 year ago
Reply to  Someone Online

It’s a matter triage. It’s been a part of medical practice for centuries.

walkbymyself
walkbymyself
1 year ago

Thank you, Tracy. At the moment, I’m still to angry to post, but when I calm down … expect a doozy from me.

Spinach@35
Spinach@35
1 year ago

Friday’s ruling, although expected, was devastating. Thanks for going to DC to shriek. Apparently “my body, my choice” only applies to mask wearing. ????????‍♀️

Dude-ette
Dude-ette
1 year ago
Reply to  Spinach@35

Perhaps a few more people would have a lightbulb moment if they were told they have to wear a mask 24/7, for a minimum of 18 years.

marissachump
marissachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Dude-ette

A mask, even 24/7 for 18 years, is a mild inconvenience at most. It isn’t an act of violence when forced upon you that physically rips your body apart in the best case scenario not to mention the too high chance of death or disability.

small jar of fireflies
small jar of fireflies
1 year ago
Reply to  marissachump

The whole thing is backward anyway. A mask doesn’t stop you from HAVING covid, it stops you from GIVING covid. So it’s more like wearing a condom. If you could get everyone pregnant by walking around, they would want you to wear a condom.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  marissachump

This. Not enough people this week are talking about the fact the UN has classified forced pregnancy as torture under international law.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Dude-ette

Most people still wouldn’t get it, because so many still don’t view women as human even if they wouldn’t admit it and would take offense if you said so.

Misogyny is so heavily baked into society, we expect women to give endlessly, especially to men. Nobody questions this. We expect women to sacrifice our careers and stay home with the kids. We expect women to give up our last names when we get married. We expect women to soothe men’s feelings and smile, swallow our feelings, give men orgasms, and don’t expect reciprocity in anything.

The New York Times recently estimated that women’s unpaid labor every year is worth $10 trillion on a global level. The world would collapse without our unpaid labor – physical, emotional, sexual.

We’re so used to this that we rarely question it, to the point that endless men (even strangers I met on a first date) felt entitled to my labor and were taken aback when I wasn’t interested. Men who thought I’d be excited to suck their dicks or do their laundry, men who talked about how I’d make them a good wife but made NO argument about how they’d be good husbands.

Again, these were men I didn’t even know, and they all looked baffled when I wasn’t a good woman appliance. It’s a chronic pattern. So while I agree with the mask argument, frankly a lot of people will just look at you like you’ve got 2 heads, because bodily autonomy in their minds is reserved for people, not appliances.

bread&roses
bread&roses
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

“Most people still wouldn’t get it, because so many still don’t view women as human even if they wouldn’t admit it and would take offense if you said so.”

Yep, just read the comments (in the left-leaning NYT) in response to the cheater letter advice column featured in CL’s most recent Friday Challenge.

Dude-ette
Dude-ette
1 year ago

It is not a pro-life movement, it is pro-fetus.

Give birth. . . no matter your family circumstances. Domestic violence? Baby a product of rape? Irrelevant. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness of an unborn fetus outweighs yours.

Give birth . . . and don’t worry about the cost of healthcare throughout your pregnancy, or the high cost of raising a child (it’s only an 18-year proposition).

Give birth . . . and don’t worry about your child’s safety. We’ll arm teachers with guns to protect your child from AR15 school slaughters. Gun training for teachers to be provided by the cops who patiently waited outside the classroom in Uvalde.

The. Hypocrisy. Is. Astounding.

Lemony98
Lemony98
1 year ago
Reply to  Dude-ette

It’s non even pro-fetus, it is pro-Christian nationalism with an extra large side of racism and misogyny. Taking away bodily autonomy makes it harder for women to be educated, work, earn living, have any kind of power. And saves precious white babies! We are in the middle of a christian evangelical coup. Contraception, gay marriage, gay existence are all next.

bread&roses
bread&roses
1 year ago
Reply to  Lemony98

Don’t forget intellectual freedom/freedom of expression. And, and, and…

BBs
BBs
1 year ago
Reply to  bread&roses

Some reading my post might judge it as paranoid. Authoritarians want CONTROL. Which includes controlling privacy, freedom of expression, intellectual freedom and, and, and, and….
Democracy does hang in the balance. It’s shocking to me that more of my fellow citizens can’t see the forest for the trees. Serving their lizard brains (validating their personal bias even if they themselves are harmed, sacrificing the health and security of family friends and neighbors because membership in the tribe demands it) are more important than thinking critically about who’s paying for what, and what the long game is. Who benefits.

Because Roe V Wade is narrowly viewed as a “women’s rights” and most of the people benefitting from the dismantling of federal oversight and standards are MEN it was the first domino to fall.
Too bad so sad. Now time to move onto eviscerating OSHA and the EPA.

Lemony98
Lemony98
1 year ago
Reply to  BBs

The whole point of supporting trump was to reach this end–to appoint hundred of far-right christian nationalist federal judges, to stack the supreme court, to make voting difficult for the “wrong” types of people, to weaken or dismantle the public education system, to remove the barrier between church and state. I honestly don’t know if we can stop it at this point. And there are millions of people who will go along with it because gas is too expensive!

Dude-ette
Dude-ette
1 year ago
Reply to  Lemony98

You are so right. The fact that a single person would put the economy issue over the right to women’s freedom is abhorrent.

As my friend says, “it’s always about the power.”

Ivanka Trump came out as “unapologetically pro-life” . . . TWO WEEKS before the 2020 election. Either she was hit with a Christian lightening bolt or she wanted daddy to win again. So much for pro-fetus being a moral issue for the Trump family.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Lemony98

Lemony, you are absolutely right.

BB
BB
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

A SMALL christian evangelical minority didn’t accomplish this alone.
Overturning Roe v Wade is a Christian evangelical coup enabled and abetted by the hypocrisy of authoritarian politicians hungry to control and keep power. No matter what the cost. Democracy be damned. Most of the jerks spouting off about the rights of the fetus don’t give a rat’s ass about the sanctity of life. It’s quid pro quo. In exchange for the political support of religious fundamentalists, the authoritarians were willing to put Roe V Wade on the table as a bargaining chip. Friday’s decision was payback.

At the risk of sounding hysterical, let’s take this one step further. There’s a third rail supporting this improbable alliance between authoritarianism and religious fundamentalism – greedy corporations. The ultimate goal is to roll back ALL federal oversight and laws that we’ve benefited from since post world war II. It’s all about minimizing and dismantling the federal government. Reaganism set the stage for today political alliances, religious fundamentalists were strategically bought into the fold. Over the years, bit by bit, by throwing protections back to the states (when it suits the agenda) our federal protections and benefits will be whittled away. For example, does the EPA have the right to set standards and impose fines on corporate polluters? Social Security? Privatize it. Clean air and water? What does “clean” really mean when each state gets to decide? Federal standards will no longer set precedence. Make no mistake, there is a bigger agenda in play. The freedom, autonomy and health of women were collateral damage the authoritarian power mongers and greedy corporations were willing to accept in exchange for furthering the long term agenda.

It’s all well and fine to channel our anger into VOTE VOTE VOTE, but that feels futile when voting rights are eroded by gerrymandering, and partisan state legislatures rigging the playing field anywhichway they can to assure not every eligible voter has access to a ballot. I could go on and on here. You get the idea. I just feel so defeated today. I feel like my vote doesn’t matter, by body doesn’t matter. My health doesn’t matter. I don’t matter. How do we change this? How do we fight back?

paula
paula
1 year ago
Reply to  BB

You are correct. The long game has been played. It is chilling.

Sadly, many don’t even recognize that we are on the precipice. November is critical because democracy is in the balance.

Emma C
Emma C
1 year ago

My mind still reels. At all the hypocrisy. Amy, belonging to People of Faith, who believe women should be at home; did a group of the all male leaders decide to grant her an exception? Clarence Thomas whose marriage was illegal and would likely gotten him hanged — this is his lifetime. My own ex — vociferously deliriously happy over the decision — has he forgotten about our search for a nearby state that could provide an abortion? No, he hasn’t forgotten — it’s just my fault entirely for being so un-feminine and ambitious.

Tiny ray of hope: both my daughter and my granddaughter are outraged and very very angry. I broke my usual rule of not speaking badly about the father/grandfather and have told them the story of the broken condom.

Jo
Jo
1 year ago

The case of “ Loving versus the state of Virginia” 1967 the Supreme Court ruled it was unconstitutional to ban interracial marriages ( caucasian husband and black/Indian wife were sentenced to prison in 1958 after they married). So as long as we’re rolling the clocks back decades I guess Clarance Thomas will have to divorce his Caucasian wife.
And all those miscarriages will be investigated as improper procedures.
Yet, every third commercial on TV continues to advertise products to increase a man’s magic wand potential. Sperm… woman don’t make sperm – yet it’s our job to keep it out.
Men – wear a condom! “ oh, but sex feels better without a rubber…”.

Really? Compared to the pain, bleeding, & violence surrounding the issue of abortion?

Wear a damn rubber you idiot men.

But now that the do-gooders want to save every spark of life let’s hope they don’t continue to vote NO when we want to pass legislation to cloth, feed, shelter, and educate these miracle gifts.

I never had an abortion but I was lucky I never got pregnant and had to make such a heart wrenching decision.

Sure, women who waddle into planned parenthood in their 6th month wanting abortion after abortion using the procedure as birth control is nuts but Roe v Wade wasn’t about that. Don’t forget to set your clocks back 50 years tonight and Clarence Thomas—-black men have served decades in prison for even looking at a white woman so looks like you’ll be behind bars too.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Jo

>Sure, women who waddle into planned parenthood in their 6th month wanting abortion after abortion using the procedure as birth control is nuts

Except this doesn’t happen.

Forced birthers love to trot out this trope, but it’s another myth on par with the Black Welfare Queen. Abortion is expensive and hard to access even before Roe fell. So’s birth control, frankly, and many Republicans want to take that away too.

Stats consistently show that most abortions happen in the 1st trimester as soon as a woman finds out she’s pregnant. Later abortions happen because you find out the fetus is dead or dying, a woman needs cancer treatment, etc. Nobody’s terminating in their 6th month for fun or because they were too lazy to see their doctor.

Lemony98
Lemony98
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

Exactly. Forced birthers like to frame abortion as being about slutty sluts who can’t keep their legs closed and murder babies instead of being about the right to bodily autonomy.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Lemony98

Yup, exactly.

And I don’t bring up that point to be argumentative. I bring it up because forced birther arguments are inherently unfair, because they’re lies with no basis in reality. Forced birthers make them to muddy the waters, confuse us, and browbeat us into submission. Typical abuser behavior, frankly. It’s insidious.

That’s why you don’t argue with or entertain a lie, you shut it down.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago

Let’s be honest, better child support laws won’t happen, and men will continue to walk away from their obligations without legal consequences. Instead, femicide rates will skyrocket. The #1 cause of death among pregnant women has always been homicide by their partners. Expect those numbers to jump.

I have a terrifying ex-boyfriend I escaped many years ago, but I still have nightmares about him. Thank God he never got me pregnant. He would’ve murdered me, 100%.

My sister called me about the ruling this weekend and, in her panic, said she was thinking of putting her house into her husband’s name “before they start confiscating women’s property.”

I told her not to do it, but I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t already worried about the possibility. Authoritarian governments have stripped people of citizenship and assets before.

DeadbeatKarma
DeadbeatKarma
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

“Let’s be honest, better child support laws won’t happen, and men will continue to walk away from their obligations without legal consequences.”

Ok then let’s get to work to actually change laws so that this is no longer the norm. It may take time but if we work together we can make changes necessary to benefit women and children. Contact your local politicians and work with organizations that will advocate for women and girls.

“Instead, femicide rates will skyrocket. The #1 cause of death among pregnant women has always been homicide by their partners. Expect those numbers to jump.”

My worst experiences of domestic violence were when I was pregnant.

Nolte Te Carborundorum

Shann
Shann
1 year ago

God bless you and your genius mind/writings Mrs T:))
Here’s one to add: how about last summer while I was standing at work with the worst cramps of my life- went home and gushed blood every where. During one of very few sexual encounters with my cheater husband he divided that after TEN years together and a very poor, failed attempt to trap me into wedded bliss and forgiveness, he must’ve allowed some of his fluid to enter my body. I’m quite sure that even at 45, my body is healthy and capable but I miscarried. That was for the best. How SICK and sad that for years I thought I wanted a baby with my husband and he had every excuse and now since dday it’s been on the table (for him)
What a slap in the face.
On the flip side- my weekend it’s funny you ask- at the table of a little diner in Ludington, I sat with mom and 2 nieces and as my 17 year old nieces begins to read the article of the news overturning Roe- I was sick again. As My mother proceeded to call abortion murder after expressing that she’d keep comments to herself like the rest of us- I had to remind her that she has a murder sitting next to her and that MOST of her female family members were murderers. That put a damper on our peaceful beach day.
Life. It’s precious. And difficult. And painful and beautiful. And every single one of us is unique that goes for our circumstances and our DECISIONS. As well
Thank you TRACEY♥️

LezChump
LezChump
1 year ago
Reply to  Shann

Hugs to you, ((Shann)). I’m so glad you survived him and that situation.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Shann

I’m sorry for your miscarriage, your cheater (I hope you’re outta there now?), and your mother’s stupid comments. Good on you shutting her down! Forced birthers are such hypocrites.

Shann
Shann
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

Thanks so much Cam I am getting closer every day as I see things will not change and I can’t make any of this go away. I go to work and attend classes. It gives me hope

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Shann

Good for you! Sounds like you’re doing great. I hope you’re proud of your work and how far you’ve come.

Yooper
Yooper
1 year ago

Tracy, this post strikes a chord in my heart that I cannot resist.

I credit my son with saving my life,

I was married for 7 years when I accidentally became pregnant. He was physically, mentally and financially abusive. He DEMANDED that I have an abortion. I REFUSED but knew at that moment that I needed to start making plans to leave.

He had been coming home stinking drunk in the wee hours on Saturdays and forced himself on me. By now, I knew better than to resist. Usually he passed out before completing the act. Well, low and behold, I became pregnant.

On one occasion, a neighbor congratulated him on the baby and he responded that he didn’t want this one and there definitely would not be another one. Another time, he told a coworker that the only good baby was a dead baby. This particular coworkers wife had recently had a stillborn.

It took a year and a half to save enough for an apartment. The rental company assured me they wouldn’t mail anything to the house! (He opened ALL the mail regardless of who it was addressed to). Well, they mailed a copy of the rental agreement to the house. He never opened it, but confronted me in a fit of rage!

Long story short, he landed in jail on a domestic abuse charge. A friend rented a truck. A coworker babysat. She sent her brothers and a couple of his friends (who I had never met) to help me move. The apartment was empty so I was able to move in on short notice. There are good people in the world!!

I may not have had the courage to leave if it hadn’t been for my son. There was NO WAY I was going to raise a child in that environment!

The early years were rough. Child support of $150 / month did not even cover the cost of daycare. But we survived. Even thrived!

Yesterday was my son’s 35th birthday. I am so proud of him. He is a fine young man, a productive member of society with a wife and a good job.

He will NEVER learn the circumstances which I have listed above. I will take that secret to the grave! He saved my life. It not for him, I may never have had the courage to leave.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Yooper

I’m sorry you went through this and am so happy for you that you got out.

Vanessa Decker
Vanessa Decker
1 year ago

THANK YOU so much for posting about this. I also shrieked Friday at the Courthouse with other women until our voices were gone.
The weekend has been so difficult but seeing people online that I admire experiencing the same feelings makes it bearable.
I researched our midterm candidates yesterday and tomorrow I vote in our midterms – but in a deep red state who is in a dick swinging contest to be the *most pro life state in the union *.

I’m so disgusted with this, so again, THANK YOU for posting!! ❤️

Newlady15
Newlady15
1 year ago

I’ll add my offer to that of many Canadian women ( and this is a threat to us too since some mysogynistic politicians would have us following suit). If any of my US sisters need to come to Canada to do the tourist thing I’m here for you, have a spare room and will help you recover from all that sightseeing. ????

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  Newlady15

This is a very sweet comment and very thoughtful of you, but I’d gently suggest that you consider volunteering with established abortion networks versus offering yourself as an independent resource. Forced birthers will target you OR impersonate you online to trap pregnant women. It’s not safe for us to trust strangers on the internet with kind offers, unfortunately.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Cam

We need an underground railroad for US women seeking abortions.

Cam
Cam
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

They exist! A quick google will bring up loads of names.

I can't think of a good name
I can't think of a good name
1 year ago

VOTE VOTE VOTE. Don’t just protest. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. How many voters didn’t vote in 2016?