Chump Nation Is in the New York Times Today

chump nation

Hey! Chump Nation is in the New York Times today. An article by Gina Cherelus “In Her World, Getting Cheated On Makes You a ‘Chump’ tries to make sense of my approach to infidelity.

“Welcome to Tracy Schorn’s one-of-a-kind vision of infidelity” it teases, leads with my detractors and then lets me have the floor.

They even ran one of my cartoons! My reaction is mixed, but overall I’m happy if it drives anyone to Chump Nation. I wish she’d explained why I use the word “chump” (I’m not out here to insult people) and left off “marital bliss” with my cheater. (I was a newlywed.) But these are quibbles — I’m thrilled to see LACGAL represented! Hope the newbies find us. (Waves!)

I’m on the road today and can’t fully process this. But as a Friday Challenge, I’d ask that you read the article and give me your thoughts. The article doesn’t have a comment function (alas), but I’ll keep my eyes peeled if it makes it to the NYT social media sphere.

Thanks! And TGIF!

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Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

Tracy I really want to read this but I don’t have a Times subscription and it’s behind a paywall, can you cut and paste the full article?

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

See my post above

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

Thank you!

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

Same here.

Adelante
Adelante
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

Maybe someone with a subscription can archive the article and post the link. I’d do that for you, but I don’t know how.

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago
Reply to  Adelante

See my post above

bobbyclark
bobbyclark
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

Try your local library. They often have subscriptions you can access.

walkbymyself
walkbymyself
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

Should be a gift link.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

I missed this before, THANK YOU! It’s great to see Tracy and CL/CN getting more exposure but the tone of the article is very negative and slanted. It’s obvious what the author (and the NYT) think of both CN and infidelity. They promote the Establishment view whose ultimate goal is to encourage promiscuity as much as possible and guilt chumps into accepting it. Most people agree with Tracy. I mentioned I was reading some threads on Quora the other day about cheating and well over 90% of the people there (we’re talking hundreds to thousands on various threads) do not believe in taking back a cheating spouse, generally for the things we talk about on here. Those who said that they have, write that they have never really forgotten about the affair, that it haunts them, that they have a “happy” relationship now but it still haunts them. Most of what I read of people’s actual practical experience with infidelity confirms what Tracy and the people on THIS site say about their own experiences and beliefs. The Establishment is WRONG as it almost always is.

Blue Wolf
Blue Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

thank you so much! I was able to read this 3rd article and greatly appreciate the opportunity to do that.

AbandonedWife
AbandonedWife
1 year ago

I am glad Tracy is getting more publicity. I would think a journalist writing for the NYT would be able to write a conclusion for an article but nope.

Starry-Eyed
Starry-Eyed
1 year ago
Reply to  AbandonedWife

These articles criticizing Tracy almost never bring up her actual arguments or come to any sort of conclusion about said arguments, because they can’t actually argue against them. All they can do is complain about how she “didn’t take into account” the old school myths about cheating when she absolutely does take them into account, she just rejects them. It’s just that really annoying tactic that toxic people use where they insist that you’re “not listening” to them over and over when you actually have listened, you’re just not agreeing with or validating them, because they can’t comprehend the possibility that the point they’re making just isn’t as convincing as they think it is.

Blue Wolf
Blue Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Starry-Eyed

this! this article is dripping with the false sweetness and false pretense of hearing what we’re saying just like what I dealt with in the ex.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Starry-Eyed

Nailed it!

Dontfeellikedancin
Dontfeellikedancin
1 year ago
Reply to  AbandonedWife

I noticed that too! It just cut off.

I agree that more publicity in general is a plus, and this article hit a lot of important points/quotes that were conveniently left out of the reviews of “Liars.” It’s reductive in some ways (focuses on the uniqueness of Tracy’s terminology but misses the point that it’s because she deliberately does not use RIC terms like “wayward”) but if someone reads the whole thing they’ll get a good idea of what CL/CN/LACGAL is about.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  AbandonedWife

Conclusion confusion lol. I was perplexedly looking past the string of article links at the end for the denouement or at least a “continue reading” tab. The thing reads like an editor just lopped the article in half and sent it to print without instructing the author to wrap it up more quickly.

All a Blur
All a Blur
1 year ago

Just lopping it off is exactly what happens in some cases! Old-school journalism uses the “inverted pyramid” style so that lopping off stuff retains the most important bits that are up top.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

But I don’t think the journalist in this case was really free to put the “lede” up top given the Times general tone of cheater apologism. Instead she did something I’ve seen journalists do when they secretly aren’t fully on board with editorial bias: she starts off with a bit of shruggy eye rolling and a few negating swipes before daring to include references or quotes that might legitimize the idea that the publication doesn’t favor. Anyway, a buried lede is easier to lop off.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
Girl_Divided
Girl_Divided
1 year ago

I read the article and it led me to you. And I find myself mystified by the attacks on your very reasonable approach to infidelity. After all, when someone cheats they put your health at risk. How many millions of faithful women died of cervical cancer over many centuries because their husbands cheated? How many women have contracted AIDS?
But beyond that, I agree that cheating is abusive behavior. It causes a lot of trauma, what else should we call it?
Anyway, keep doing what you do. Ignore the weird pushback.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  Girl_Divided

Great points. Please stick around.

RedKD
RedKD
1 year ago
Reply to  Girl_Divided

Welcome!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Girl_Divided

Adultery has been identified as a major driver of HIV infection in many countries– at least the ones studied for the correlation, which may be the tip of the iceberg.

HIV activists are struggling to find ways to address one of Uganda’s biggest health crises: soaring HIV infections among couples, caused largely by cheating spouses. The subject can be too politically and culturally sensitive to discuss.

The face of Uganda’s AIDS epidemic is changing. In the 1990s, the country brought down its infection rate dramatically with a campaign advocating ABC – abstinence, being faithful and condoms. The government urged people to get off the so-called “sexual network” and into stable, committed relationships, which were considered safe.

But that is no longer true. According to the results of a national survey released last year, more than 40 percent of new infections are happening among married couples.

Sandra Kyagaba works with the National Community of Women Living with HIV/AIDS. She said more than half the women who come to them are married.

“Most of them when they come, they will share with you and say, ‘I contracted HIV from my husband, [and] I was really faithful.’ That means the husband was not faithful,” she explained. “It’s really very common here.”

https://www.voanews.com/a/infidelity-root-cause-of-ugandas-chaning-aids-epidemic/1644720.html

For a growing number of women in rural Mexico—and around the world—marital sex represents their single greatest risk for HIV infection.1 That women are infected by the very people with whom they are supposed to be having sex—indeed, according to social convention in Mexico, the only people with whom they are ever supposed to have sex—challenges existing approaches to HIV prevention. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874214/

Emma C
Emma C
1 year ago

Congrats on making the New York Times!

walkbymyself
walkbymyself
1 year ago

I RUSHED over here to congratulate you!

I have to push back against her characterization of the pushback. I actually would have commented, but the article didn’t include a comments section.

An article last month in The New Yorker accused Ms. Schorn of peddling “steely certainties, swaddled in baby talk and baby thinking,” that don’t leave room for questioning complicated marital dynamics. Weeks later, The Cut wrote that she was contributing to a general culture of affirmation in which women are often expected to validate one another without question.”

Okay for just a moment we’re giving the Cut a free pass on the presumption that members of Chump Nation are all female. But I digress.

The issue is that we have experts without expertise. They’re all participating in an echo-chamber with a common goal of manipulating us chumps into accepting both blame and responsibility. They’re tagging us for the actions of people who have, as far as I can see, had a free lifetime pass to without accountability of any kind. These “experts” rush to our side while we are still in the fog of early discovery and confusion, and purport to guide us.

I would try to talk to my own support network about my crazy situation, and it was like I was running a marathon with a starting point two miles behind anyone else: I had to first overcome everyone else’s disbelief.

Except here. I didn’t have to beg you to believe me.

The very same people who first call us crazy for imagining things … will turn on a dime and accuse us of being in denial. It doesn’t occur to them that both of those things cannot possibly be true — and the only explanation I can think of, is that they firmly believe that whatever happened, was clearly the chump’s fault.

Except here.

So I got a really good belly laugh at the notion that Chump Nation peddles “certainties” that “don’t leave room for questioning complicated marital dynamics.” You know what doesn’t leave room for questioning complicated marital dynamics? The judge who didn’t believe me when I showed him my husband’s bank statements showing all the community property funds he’s embezzled from me for 24 years — a discover I myself had only made two weeks earlier when my husband and his lawyers finally produced the bank statements.

This is probably the ONLY place I can think of where people actually DO understand complicated marital dynamics.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

It’s very dismissive – not only saying that CN is basically all female which is NOT true, and we’d all like to have male chumps join our ranks, but also implying that WOMEN in particular have a problem with cheating because….we’re women. Which is particularly insidious (hope that’s the right word) for a female author. It goes in with the old trope that men just naturally cheat and women are supposed to adapt to this and forgive it, blah blah. All of this is wrong. Both sexes cheat, it always hurts and it’s always wrong.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

you are so right about how difficult it is to overcome the disbelief when you try to talk to people about what you’re going through.

Rebecca
Rebecca
1 year ago

Congratulations to our fearless leader, Tracy/Chump Lady!!!
And welcome to anyone who finds their way to this site from the NYT.

This is a safe place (pick your “chump” name to protect your privacy – or not 😊) to discuss ANY issues about infidelity. Those of us here tell the truth about our individual journeys. Some are decades long and we are well on to the “gain a life” stage and some are day #1 of finding out the life they thought they had was a lie based on their partner’s secret life.

All are offered support, serious information about how to process and proceed based on our individual experiences. And we also offer up the hard truths about the process of surviving infidelity. It’s NOT just affirmation. There is no one-size-fits-all around here and there is no patronizing either.

Many, myself included, stay around to share our hard earned wisdom and advice (but always point out I’m not a lawyer).

Tracy,
Many of your supporters credit you with literally saving our lives!
Your work provides a different narrative from everyone else out in cyberspace. You work so hard for all of us. I pray that the NYT piece brings even more chumps into your fold and goes even further to change the narrative about the realities of cheating.
You deserve all the credit! ❤️

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago
Reply to  Rebecca

Yes!!! Thank you Rebecca! I’m a Chump Class of 2015 and after leaving my cheating XH in 2015 after 25 year mirage (TM Velvet Hammer) I gained a wonderful life: new career, new home, new hobbies, new community, new partner. The support I received here saved my life, literally. I still visit the site daily and do a lot of support on the FB group trying to pay it back with the newly gutted chumps, who sadly just keep coming.

AnotherLife
AnotherLife
1 year ago

Interesting! I am glad they are advertising Chump Nation for those who may desperately. All publicity is good publicity.

The accusitory tone is interesting. Like Tracy created this way of thinking. Yes the terms are coined by Tracy but the feelings and morals and points of view are thise if the nation. Before I found Chump Nation the ideas expressed were exactly the conclusions I had come to on my own. I fiubd a group with similar morals, integrity and experience.

It would have been better if there was more focus on the Nation of people supporting each other in there betrayal. The support given in such a traumatic life event and the lake och morals and integrity people who cheat have.

I am also a firm believer infidelity is traumatic abuse. No matter how they wish to white wash it.

Last edited 1 year ago by AnotherLife
Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  AnotherLife

Well, as several commenters on here often point out, there appears to be a bias toward cheaters in the media. Because so many of them are cheaters.

Adelante
Adelante
1 year ago

I saw the article this morning, and the comment feature was absent. If it becomes possible to comment, I’ll leave one (I subscribe).

Tracy
Tracy
1 year ago
Reply to  Adelante

Agreed. I sent an email to the author, inviting her to visit us regularly and see the cheater themes/tactics that emerge.

Bluewren
Bluewren
1 year ago
Reply to  Tracy

Maybe she’d like a Q and A session with us….😎

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
1 year ago
Reply to  Bluewren

That sounds like a wonderful idea. I’d be happy to participate!

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago
Reply to  Adelante

I also subscribe and don’t see it either.

RedKD
RedKD
1 year ago

Same here

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
1 year ago
Reply to  RedKD

Me too.

MyRedSandals
MyRedSandals
1 year ago

I have a free online NYT subscription but it doesn’t allow me to read anything behind their paywall. However, as soon as today’s article popped up, and BEFORE the paywall engaged, I was able to quickly make a copy of it and paste it into an MS Word document.

After reading it, I felt there was an underlying tone of, I don’t know… ridicule? disrespect? skepticism? sarcasm?

Maybe it was all of the quotation marks the columnist, Gina Cherelus, used as she referred to the “oddball terms and phrases” we commonly use within this community. It felt like someone, with eyebrows raised, using oversized air quotes when mimicking what someone else had said.

Or maybe the columnist has never (knowingly) been cheated on and/or hasn’t personally experienced the devastation of being gaslit, blamed, manipulated, mindfucked, exposed to STDs, left virtually penniless or thrown under the bus by a trusted partner.

Or maybe I’m just too sensitive and too protective of Chump Nation, of Tracy and her work…

Anyway, I’ll give the columnist the benefit of the doubt and assume she had space restrictions imposed by her editor and that’s why she didn’t say more. But if this article gets more people to investigate Chump Lady, to read the blog, to buy Tracy’s lifesaving book, to join the FB group, to reframe infidelity/mentally shift their paradigm about cheating, and to give them the strength to hold a cheater accountable by leaving them to gain a life, then it was worth it!

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

I hope she doesn’t find out the hard way, Unfortunately, given the prevalence of cheating, she may.

Bluewren
Bluewren
1 year ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

Correct- just more nonsense from bubble dwellers that don’t know shit from clay.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

Yes, exactly. The tone was mocking and stick up the ass type tut tutting about the language, which isn’t odd at all, it’s perfectly descriptive. Worthless article.

NoShitCupcakes
NoShitCupcakes
1 year ago

Are we allowed to post any portion of the article? If so, this is the last portion which features Tracy’s responses. I’m not a subscriber and I noted that the comment section is turned off on the article (cowards!).

Please remove if this violates copyright or something.

Ms. Schorn said she believed her work was receiving so much pushback because it questions “basic assumptions” about infidelity, like how the quality of a marriage may lead a person to cheat.

“Bad therapy encourages this. Bad theology encourages this,” she said. “Chumps get blamed by cheaters, and they internalize it and stay on the hamster wheel of trying to fix themselves to keep their partner from hurting them. It’s a whole other level of harm.”

Many are hesitant to label cheating abuse for fear of diluting a term usually reserved for more direct forms of physical or emotional harm. But Ms. Schorn rejects those concerns. To her, the potentially traumatic effects of cheating are no different from those of gaslighting, lying and manipulation, simply because cheating involves all of those betrayals.

“We readily understand a punch in the face as transgressive,” she said. “We do not recognize infidelity as transgressive. That’s the narrative I’m trying to change.”

To those who point to cheating as a symptom of a bigger issue — like having an unsatisfactory sex life, struggling with new parenthood or discovering one’s true sexuality — Ms. Schorn said it was possible to work through those issues, or to break up ethically, because “nobody owes you a relationship.”

“Cheating is deliberately not breaking up with you,” she added. “Cheating is the theft of your reality. It’s extracting labor from you and value from you. Maybe you’re raising my children. Maybe you have a paycheck that I like. Maybe you front normalcy.”

All a Blur
All a Blur
1 year ago

Pretty thin and reductive article in some ways, though CL’s quotes are certainly good. The language is messed-up: “absolving the betrayed of any role in their own betrayal?” You have to commit a sin to receive absolution for it. So that implies that the betrayed indeed have a role.

Why is it so very hard for people to understand the most basic concept here? How many times have I read from CL and fellow chumps that they were not perfect partners? Rather than not “questioning complicated marital dynamics,” Tracy and this community repeatedly make the point that those realities exist. It’s just that cheating breaks the contract in traumatic fashion, and makes working on those complicated dynamics and self-improvement no longer relevant.

I know journalism, particularly in the NYT, loves to poke at controversy, but this article posits that “critics have begun to question the wisdom of her approach to infidelity.” That’s true enough in a literal sense, but the way it’s written brings up visions of a waking leviathan, as if the adults have taken notice of this upstart and set out to correct things in their wisdom.

I’m glad Tracy’s quotes are there to provide the best content. And I’m tired of journalists and RIC “experts” not realizing another basic thing about this site (though at least it was briefly mentioned here)- that the silly terms hit the brains of the recently-betrayed very differently. They’re a relief valve in the middle of deep trauma. And what seems like “baby talk” (which they clearly get from the single term “schmoopie”) from the distant viewpoint of the non-betrayed is received (at least it was by me) as angry sarcasm as deep as the Mariana Trench when you’re going through this hell.

Do they include “fuckwit” as “baby talk?” The language around here is a one-two punch, not some sort of soothing balm.

I’m glad too that the point got made that the RIC is made up of people who financially benefit from peddling their view.

The clearest thing to me after going through betrayal and interacting with people in this community is something I wish some journalist would finally cover: we’ve revealed a central, disturbing truth that 99.9% of cheaters act the same way and even say the same things. It’s anecdata, but from a huge set of samples. Maybe some academic will look more closely at a real study of that phenomenon. That alone goes a very long way toward validating the insights here.

Last edited 1 year ago by All a Blur
Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

The RIC don’t just peddle their view, it’s worse than that, they suppress and deny their clients’ experience and suffering. They gaslight and support abusers for money.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

For f*ck’s sake, does no one at the Times or New Yorker remember the Seinfeld Schmoopie episode? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNW6CFdjMo8

I assumed it was a pretty recognizable reference to cloying, annoying, gooey juvenile limerence in people old enough to know better.

Orlando
Orlando
1 year ago

“The Schmoopies!” Good point!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando

That episode, slightly better known as the Soup Nazi episode, is actually listed as the all time most quoted from the entire series. I’m not a big TV watcher or Seinfeld fan and almost never see anything when it first airs but who other than Ted Kaczynski doesn’t know about Schmoopie and Soup Nazi?

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Great comment, All a Blur. And yes, you’re dead-on about this: “The clearest thing to me . . . is something I wish some journalist would finally cover: [the posts and comments on this site have] revealed a central, disturbing truth that 99.9% of cheaters act the same way and even say the same things.”

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Leedy

This is something I also find disturbing. And reading stories on this site underlined to me that the way my cheater father treated me and my mother was nothing unusual,as cheaters go.

I wish Chump Nation had been around to support my mom back when my parents got divorced. She was completely blindsided by his behavior and finding out the man she thought she was married to…wasn’t the man she was married to.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Her language also brings some levity to trauma. And outside commentators also fail to realize that some of the language we and Tracy uses is the babytalk originated by cheaters themselves, and used to mock them, such as “twu wuv” and “sole mate.” I absolutely howled when I saw them, and others, in FW’s emails to his online “baby.”

ChumpNoMore
ChumpNoMore
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Anectdata. Is that a real word? I’m stealing it anyway!

Dontfeellikedancin
Dontfeellikedancin
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpNoMore

Came here to say this. Anecdata is my new favorite word!

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Yes!

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Well said!

Mr Wonderfuls Ex
Mr Wonderfuls Ex
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

I have never understood the people who get up in arms over the word “schmoopie.” It’s gender neutral for an immature love interest. And it’s not a curse word. The words I would prefer to use for them are harsher. Schmoopie is the nicest word I can use. Are we supposed to use some glowy term that puts them on a pedestal? It’s so stupid. They are desperate to denigrate Chump Lady and that’s what they come up with. Lame.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

It sounds nicer than the monikers my kids branded the AP with: “Beefy the Danger Pig” and “Trash Goblin.”

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago

I lean toward “side piece.”

ChumpNoMore
ChumpNoMore
1 year ago

Schmoopie is much more polite than the words I used – Blonde psycho bitch being the main one. (Apologies to all blonde chumps out there)

BeenThruIt
BeenThruIt
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpNoMore

“Schmoopie” is a bit cutesy-sounding to me. In my case, I referred to the AP as “Skankenstein.”

MyRedSandals
MyRedSandals
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpNoMore

Or the one I use with abandon when referring to my FW’s AP-turned-Wife: MARRIED HOWORKER.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

I totally prefer whore for well a whore; but if I were to talk publicly I definitely would use the word schmoops, or if I wanted to be more real adultery partner.

I am a woman and the whore in my case was/is a woman and my ex was a man whore. I will let others speak for themselves.

NoShitCupcakes
NoShitCupcakes
1 year ago

Was there any particular REASON to bring up Tracy’s age? Not that it’s anything to be ashamed of but was it relevant in any way?

All a Blur
All a Blur
1 year ago
Reply to  NoShitCupcakes

It’s often required in journalism, even when it seems silly and irrelevant.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Just kidding I get you.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

journalism?

NoShitCupcakes
NoShitCupcakes
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

Oh, okay. Thank you!

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago

Many widely quoted, so-called experts are narcissists who pay thousands of dollars per month (sometimes tens or hundreds of thousands) to publicists, who pitch them to the media. Their goal is to get coverage, fame and make money through books, consulting, etc.

Tracy doesn’t have that selfish motivation, or those resources. She does have us. If you can, please comment on the article at the NYT, or write letters in response.

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
1 year ago

Way to go!

Yes, there is no comment section, but at the bottom of the article it says

Send your thoughts, stories and tips to thirdwheel@nytimes.com

I’m off to send my stories, thoughts, and tips.

Yay Tracy!

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
1 year ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

It took the assistance of the ASPCA, in 1874, to rescue a horrifically abused little girl named Mary Ellen Wilson. For the first time in American history, a so-called caregiver was prosecuted for child abuse. Society for the most part accepted the idea that children were property and stood down while parents and caregivers did whatever they wanted to a child.
(And of course child abuse continues to this day…..)

The indescribable pain and damage of being cheated on is what changed my thinking about infidelity. I don’t know what would motivate anyone without the experience to challenge and change their thinking. At the very least, a massive amount of empathy would be required, a quality that cheaters and side pieces are missing.

“The first one through the wall always gets hurt.” A quote from Moneyball that I love, and have found to be true. I could not be more grateful that my thinking has changed about this tragically acceptable behavior which does such incalculable harm.

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Oh, please do, Velvet Hammer! Maybe they’ll do a follow up story.

unicornomore
unicornomore
1 year ago

Yes, welcome to anyone visiting after reading the NYT article. I have been coming here for YEARS, but I sheepishly admit that my very first comment was to explain how I had found the secret sauce to fix my marriage (with a pinch of “look how clever I am”). Tracy refers to truly repaired marriages as unicorns (as they are so rare) and I claimed to be one.

I thought I had reconciled with Cheater but after he died, I learned that it was all a farce (thus the revised spelling of “wreckonsillyation”) and not only had he not told me the truth, his cheating was about 20x worse than I ever imagined. Hence my name.

I raised my family, kept plugging away at my job and married a wonderful (not perfect – we are all a bit flawed) partner who (by all accounts thus far) is a trustworthy person.

Processing the breadth of my first marriage has taken years because none of it was as it seemed and moments I saw as quirky in the moment most likely pointed to ongoing adultery.

Please know that the issue isnt “just” that they went off and had sex with a coworker, its that in the whole process of deciding to do this, we as spouses were vilified (“she deserves this”), lied to, lost time and effort they had promised to us and our families, put at physical risk, and most often treated very very badly to the point of abuse in our homes.

They also had to create narratives to cover tracks in case onlookers got wind of their doings. Most of us were rather horrible maligned to our families, neighbors, friends, and their coworkers. To this day, many years later, I know old friends were likely told horrible untruths about me.

The term “Chump” may sound like an insult to us, but it is a recognition of the level of lies and deceit our partners chose to inflict on us even while we were devoted to them. I am not ashamed for loving and trusting my spouse. His decision to turn me into a Chump was on him.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  unicornomore

” and most often treated very very badly to the point of abuse in our homes.”

And by the time we can actually stand on our feet again and can talk about the abuse and humiliation we are told; oh time to move on.

There was no CL resource when I went through it; I had no real way of knowing how many others were going through the same thing. The library? Who is going to go into a library and ask them for books on adultery. Maybe down the line, but not while you are still drowning in pain and humifaction and fighting for your sanity.

BeenThruIt
BeenThruIt
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

I went through this long before CL also, and the only book I found in my library to try to figure out why he was treating me and the kids so badly (this was 2004) was ‘Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  BeenThruIt

My situation predated Lundy’s first book.

Private Lies was published in 1989, but of course I had no way back then of knowing about it. My year of discard was 1989, and (thankfully) ass wipe left on New Years day of 1990.

Bluewren
Bluewren
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

My foot would move on to connect with their arse if someone told me that it was time to move on.
The stages of trauma don’t compute with most folk.

thelongrun
thelongrun
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

Funny you mention the library, susie lee. I’ve tried to get Tracy’s book into my local library. They refuse to do it. No good excuse. It’s frustrating.

I think all chumps should at least have that as an option in their local libraries. At whatever point in time it works for them.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago

Although today’s piece was written by a journalist, here’s another opportunity to change the narrative at the NYT: They’re looking for reader comments on past Modern Love columns, which has come up multiple times here. The deadline in midnight this Sunday. Here’s the link. While they want positive comments about what’s been written, you can also speak directly to the column’s editors about what you haven’t liked to read. Ask them to publish more from the victims of infidelity, rather than the perpetrators.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/22/style/what-has-modern-love-taught-you-about-love.html

What Has ‘Modern Love’ Taught You About Love?To celebrate the column’s 20th anniversary, we’re asking readers to share their favorite lines of wisdom from Modern Love essays and Tiny Love Stories.

Listen to this article · 0:55 min Learn more

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    Credit…

    Brian Rea
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    By Miya Lee and Daniel Jones

    Published Aug. 22, 2024
    Updated Aug. 25, 2024
    As the editors of Modern Love, we are routinely asked, by friends and strangers alike, “What have you learned about love?”
    We plan to provide some answers in October when Modern Love reaches its 20th anniversary. But we also want to ask you, our readers, what you have learned about love from reading the column.
    Are there any lines from Modern Love essays or Tiny Love Stories that you hold close or turn to because they seem wise or true? Have you implemented any of the lessons embedded in these real stories in your own life?

    Please tell us in the questionnaire below by Sunday, Sept. 8, at 11:59 p.m. Pacific time. Feel free to share this callout with others who might want to respond. If we’re interested in your entry, an editor will get in touch with you.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago

sorry, didn’t realize I had copied the cartoon and other parts of it.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

Won’t be able to read it, it requires a sign in and I don’t want flushed with ads.

NotAnymore
NotAnymore
1 year ago

I feel like the article stopped short, but am thrilled at any mention that brings more people to this absolutely life saving site.

To anyone just finding this site today, read the archives. Read the comments. Hear the stories of people who tried their hardest to deal fairly with liars and abusers. People who lost their homes, livelihoods, or children. People who suffered unimaginable violence because a cheater didn’t want to face a consequence or relinquish control. People who contracted STDs or cancers from sex with their partner that they would not have consented to if they had known there was infidelity.

You’ll see a community of people supporting each other through the most difficult time of their lives. You’ll see people starting at the bottom and rebuilding their lives day by day, step by step. Finding community in each other when their support networks have crumbled.

It is easy to write a one-off shiny op-ed (with the comments section turned off) about how an affair was a sexy, adventurous, quest for aliveness. It’s easy to write a book that panders to people’s entitlement; that cheating is ok, in fact, it’s more “evolved” and may even make your marriage better!

What’s hard is what Tracy does – to wallop the already downtrodden with a 2×4 of Truth. To sit in the trenches each day with the devastated and betrayed. To point a way forward to a better life through the barbed wire and landmines of divorce and joint custody.

Tracy is here because she genuinely wants other people to thrive after betrayal. To find peace. To make it to “Tuesday.”

As a person who left a cheater and liar, and gained a truly amazing life on the other side – I’ll be forever grateful to Tracy and the wise, hilarious, community here who saw me through the darkest nights.

ChumpNoMore
ChumpNoMore
1 year ago
Reply to  NotAnymore

Well said.

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago
Reply to  NotAnymore

Ditto👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  NotAnymore

I agree. I didn’t have a Tracy; and thought I think I did fairly well due in large part to the support of an amazing Father, Brother and Preacher and his wife. Having a site like this that had folks who were in the trenches with me would have been amazing.

Of course it was pre internet days; so…

JulesCat
JulesCat
1 year ago

NYT Chump Nation.docx

I tried to make it into a word document for those who cannot read it.

Orlando
Orlando
1 year ago

I ponied up the $ for a NYT subscription this morning. They can thank Chump Lady for that. The sentence “…her oddball terms and phrases” seems to imply CL & Chump Nation are a whacky & uneducated lot. Excuse me while I pull out my two degrees, Master’s & another post degree diploma. My educated person appreciates simple, down to earth advice. Not couched in over-analysis or by the muting of harmful situations by diluting them with intellectual wording. IMO the rest of the article is fair & balanced. However, the ending appears cut off. Or was it meant to be that way? How oddball.
If there are newbies here, you must be looking for straight up advice how to navigate through betrayal & trauma…and you’ve come away from traditional therapy that blamed you 50% for that! And you’re feeling the unfairness of that. And the minimizing of the trauma you are experiencing. Welcome to Chump Nation, where we DON’T do that.

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago

I am thrilled you were covered, although disgusted by the negative tone of the article. The interviewer is dismissive. I suspect she’s a cheater or AP. I’m a long-time digital subscriber of the NYT and will leave a comment once my coffee kicks in and I can think more critically.

MotherChumperNinetyNine
MotherChumperNinetyNine
1 year ago

Tracy Schorn has cultivated a personal philosophy of cheating, one that views infidelity as a form of abuse and absolves the betrayed of any role in their own betrayal.

Perhaps more notably, she has also created a very specific language to discuss it.

The cheated-upon are known as “the chumps.” The affair partner is called the “schmoopie.” The cheater feeds off “ego kibble” and often benefits from a partner’s “spackling” — the excuse-making that a chump undertakes in a desperate attempt to salvage a relationship.

Ms. Schorn, a cartoonist and former journalist who has run a blog called Chump Lady since 2012, says this snarky approach allows victims of infidelity to process their realities, all while adding levity to a difficult time.

“I tried to create the kind of support site that I wish existed when I went through it,” Ms. Schorn, who is 57 and lives in Waterford, Va., with her husband, said in an interview. She compares the site’s straight-shooter approach to the voice of a “best friend that’s just going to grab you by the lapels and go, ‘Stop it, you’re being manipulated.’

Her blog’s supportive ethos; her oddball terms and phrases, like “the pick-me dance”(the competition one can be goaded into with an affair partner); her comic strip-style cartoons lampooning cheaters and their exploits: All are in service of her mantra, “Leave a cheater, gain a life.”
For over a decade, Tracy Schorn has nurtured a community she (affectionately) calls Chump Nation: jilted lovers eager for reassurance that being cheated on wasn’t their fault.

On her website, Ms. Schorn answers letters looking for guidance from her online community (she calls it Chump Nation). One wrote that she was contemplating giving her husband a fourth chance and another asked whether post-traumatic stress disorder could justify cheating. She also writes about news events as they relate to cheating and hosts a podcast about surviving infidelity called “Tell Me How You’re Mighty” alongside Sarah Gorrell, a BBC radio journalist.

Twelve years after starting her blog, Ms. Schorn has racked up a following of thousands who find solace in the community she created, consoling one another in her site’s comment section and on Facebook and Reddit. But as she finds herself in a spotlight that has recently grown much brighter after being thanked in a high-profile novel, critics have begun to question the wisdom of her approach to infidelity.

Ms. Schorn is quick to point out that she is not a marriage counselor or a psychotherapist, merely “a woman with critical thinking abilities and a sense of humor.” She’s also a chump herself, dating to 2006, four years before she married her current husband.

Ms. Schorn, then 39, was married to her second husband after being in a relationship with him for about a year and a half. After six months of what she thought was marital bliss, she received a call from a woman who said she had been having an affair with him.

“His mistress called me and revealed that he had a double life going back decades,” she said. After doing more research on him, she discovered that he was a serial cheater.

She soon filed for a divorce, and even though the marriage was short, they had bought real estate together and were already meaningfully intertwined.

“He isolated me,” she said. “He made me financially vulnerable to him, because I gave up my job in D.C., I followed his career, and I did a lot of things that women are expected to do that weren’t based on self-protection.”
She sought guidance online but was unhappy with what she found. “Everything — and I mean everything — was, ‘What did you do to make him cheat and how are you going to improve yourself to win him back?’” she recalled.

Frustrated by what she calls the “reconciliation industrial complex” — the constellation of counselors, authors and others who have a financial interest in selling the idea that cheating can lead to a stronger relationship — Ms. Schorn sought a different approach.
In 2012, her current husband suggested that she write a book about her experiences. She decided to write a blog instead, as a way of processing everything she had been through. (A book, “Leave a Cheater, Gain a Life: The Chump Lady’s Survival Guide,” came later.)

Ms. Schorn has recently been the subject of significant criticism and backlash. An article last month in The New Yorker accused Ms. Schorn of peddling “steely certainties, swaddled in baby talk and baby thinking,” that don’t leave room for questioning complicated marital dynamics. Weeks later, The Cut wrote that she was contributing to a general culture of affirmation in which women are often expected to validate one another without question.

Ms. Schorn said she believed her work was receiving so much pushback because it questions “basic assumptions” about infidelity, like how the quality of a marriage may lead a person to cheat.

“Bad therapy encourages this. Bad theology encourages this,” she said. “Chumps get blamed by cheaters, and they internalize it and stay on the hamster wheel of trying to fix themselves to keep their partner from hurting them. It’s a whole other level of harm.”

Many are hesitant to label cheating abuse for fear of diluting a term usually reserved for more direct forms of physical or emotional harm. But Ms. Schorn rejects those concerns. To her, the potentially traumatic effects of cheating are no different from those of gaslighting, lying and manipulation, simply because cheating involves all of those betrayals.

“We readily understand a punch in the face as transgressive,” she said. “We do not recognize infidelity as transgressive. That’s the narrative I’m trying to change.”
To those who point to cheating as a symptom of a bigger issue — like having an unsatisfactory sex life, struggling with new parenthood or discovering one’s true sexuality — Ms. Schorn said it was possible to work through those issues, or to break up ethically, because “nobody owes you a relationship.”

“Cheating is deliberately not breaking up with you,” she added. “Cheating is the theft of your reality. It’s extracting labor from you and value from you. Maybe you’re raising my children. Maybe you have a paycheck that I like. Maybe you front normalcy.”

MollyWobbles
MollyWobbles
1 year ago

Does it really just end right there??? How odd! It’s like half the article was cut off.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 year ago

Thank you for helping us out here! Looks like “fair use” to me!

(before I go any further-while I am happy that “Liars” got referenced as “high profile” they could have at least name dropped it-just sayin’.)

Welcome to all of our new friends that came here from the Times article! And if you are not our friends? Welcome anyway! Sit underneath the learnin’ tree. I have previously iterated my belief of what this community really is: the 201 level course on surviving infidelity. We are a welcoming bunch-this is a place of healing and discussion.

On the topic of “Liars”, I almost feel like this is the precis we deserved in that Parul person’s takedown of this community. When you fail to acknowledge the opposing viewpoint, you fail to acknowledge the issue.

Like others here, I have to raise an eyebrow at bringing up our leader’s age here. Umm…other than “this isn’t somebody who got cheated on in highschool”…why?

My lit crit hat is on(been writing more lately)…I feel like “some are questioning the wisdom” is a touch weasel-wordy. Like…I mean…who? What are their credentials? Are these people…I don’t know…cheaters perhaps? Cheater adjacent? I am not seeing evidence that somebody from say the 180 or its ilk that successfully repaired a relationship and was able to trust a cheater again is verbalizing that we are in the wrong here. Really just got a contract writer for the New Yorker that vehemently disagreed with our stance on an issue from a novel I’m not 100% convinced that they actually read all the way through.

My feeling on this article is that if you are not dissuaded to stop reading about halfway through, our leader gets the mic, lays it down, and drops it. Our community DOES challenge the underlying assumptions around infidelity. They need to be challenged. A questioning attitude is where growth in systems occurs.

If the zeitgeist is “we need to be progressive in how traditional systems have been handled with the exception of who rubs what body parts on who” there is a problem. That system clearly does not work for all of us. Coming here a year ago and starting to conceptualize infidelity as abuse made what I was experiencing start to make a lot more sense from a Trauma Informed Care perspective. And almost 20 years working in mental health? It honestly makes an awful lot of sense.

Have a Fuckwit Free Friday all!

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
1 year ago

Thanks for reposting it here, MC99!

Starry-Eyed
Starry-Eyed
1 year ago

My, my, my, coupled with this and the article from The Cut, it seems like you’ve ruffled the feathers of the New York prestige journalism community. Lots of whining disguised as intellectually curious “concern” about how you’re not “taking into account” the typical victim-blaming myths about cheating (“how did you not meet their needs in a way that drove them to cheat???”) that writers like them have spread around as gospel for decades.

You’d think that honestly curious journalism would explore the question that maybe the old approach is flawed, that maybe the idea that cheating is caused by “unmet needs” and “marital complexities” is a just-so-story that we’ve all been telling each other as if it were obviously true, but never really stopped to sit and examine if it actually was.

I can only speculate, but my guess is that they’re either mad that you’re questioning the “wisdom” that they themselves blindly peddled to the public for years (and as a silly little “nobody blogger” no less), or they’re mad that you’re dissolving all the faux-sophisticated sounding excuses they gave their own champagne-sipping asses for cheating on their spouses.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago

I hope this drives readers to Tracy’s book and website.

A line that showed the writer’s ignorance was “…Chump Nation: jilted lovers eager for reassurance that being cheated on wasn’t their fault.”

“Jilted” means a sudden rejection or abandonment, and we all know that cheaters often prolong and hide their affairs, often with no intention of leaving their chumped partners. And “lovers” is a lot different from partners in a committed relationship. This statement sounds like it’s referring to relationships that haven’t reached the commitment stage. And “eager for reassurance” trivializes the complexities of what we are going through, including finances and parenting failures be cheating partners. I believe most of us are eager for information and guidance on how to navigate these complex legal and financial matters, and deal with people who trivialize our experience.

Samsara
Samsara
1 year ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

Agree Goodfriend. The term “jilted lover” is both reductive and dismissive and has a whiff of “bitter” and “scorned” about it too. We will not be thanking the NYT for old tropes that were inferred and yet not addressed.

None of these terms reflects the realities of the many and varied relationships that are discussed here on the daily.

This is a thinly veiled hatchet job posited as an objective neutral piece: begrudging / condescending at best, failed journalism and barely disguised paid for PR at worst.

As an example: why would you not name “Liars” and reference the author’s name?

That is the “tell”.

The NYT is burying itself with nonsense like this.

NotAnymore
NotAnymore
1 year ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

I was a “jilted lover” when my college boyfriend cheated on me. It goes a bit beyond that when two people are married, financially support each other, and have kids.

Betty put it best in Dirty John: “If Dan had defrauded a business partner the way he did me when he broke our contract, he’d be the one in jail.”

I run a successful business. If a business partner constantly lied, broke our contract terms, misappropriated joint funds for personal spending, and then told me the reason they did those things was because I wasn’t good enough – it would be clear that the connection of their deeds to my personality is a non-sequitur.

Yet somehow, our culture just loves the trope that cheaters probably “had their reasons” for deciding to NOT separate or divorce, but cheat.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

“often with no intention of leaving their chumped partners. ”

Or even if they do intend to leave them, they stay until they have extracted all the value they can out of them. Then leave them in ruins.

I was one of the “lucky” ones that got to see my ex crash and burn; he never recovered his former status in the community or financial. Not because of me or the divorce but at his own hand. But so many have to go on seeing their fws seemingly prosper and at least on the surface look like they are ecstatic.

All a Blur
All a Blur
1 year ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

Yeah, that “eager for reassurance” phrase is bizarre. I wasn’t eager for reassurance. I just assumed that I had to reconcile and figure out what had gone wrong, because that’s how we earnest people think. I was astonished to find that my assumption that it was my fault was not correct, and was in fact giving my ex more room to do more of the same. Which she was doing even while crying crocodile tears in couples therapy saying how sorry she was.

That’s what these writers who gin up “controversy” around Tracy don’t get unless they’ve been cheated on. The discovery upends your entire world, and the cheater, almost 100% of the time, doubles down on gaslighting, lying, anger, etc. To go on about “complicated dynamics” and “stronger than ever” is to willfully overlook, play down, or deny that these people are simply not looking at the world the same way or playing by the same rules. You’re collaborating to build something, and they’re playing a strategy game.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 year ago
Reply to  All a Blur

I didn’t want reassurance, either. I just wanted the crying fits to stop.

There are certain things that we are programmed not to have empathy for until they arrive at our doorstep. I’m happy that there are people that have never been cheated on. I wish I was still one of them. Alas. I do not wish this pain on anybody. I hope the people that come here out of curiosity come to understand that this behavior is not victimless, nor does it prevent harm.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

I find that people who have no close experience with cheating– either in their families of origin or personally– don’t tend to express strong opinions about it. The same goes for for every other grade of domestic abuse. Truly uninitiated bystanders tend to go a bit wide-eyed and say little more than “Uh, wow, that sounds bad.” But, according to the safe/just world fallacy, those most likely to blame victims (aside from perps of course) are those most afraid of having the particular misfortune befall them which suggests close personal brushes with the same misfortune. It’s why jury consultants advise the prosecution to keep certain types of women off rape trial juries.

Anyway, I don’t think the diss campaign is driven by innocence. Ignorance maybe, but that can be willful.

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
1 year ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

Trivialize is a good word to describe what I think the NYT author did when talking about the “oddball” terms bandied about on this blog, and discussing the criticisms.

At least some good quotes of Tracy’s are in there, and although it abruptly cuts off I am so glad it ends with something Tracy said and not a critic.

RedKD
RedKD
1 year ago

All publicity is good!! I hope some new Chumps find their way here!

The article, as I suspected it would, can’t seem to wrap itself around the idea that we don’t need to automatically accept a cheater’s narrative, which shows how steeped in the RIC we are as a society. Thanks for being a life-saving trailblazer, Tracy!!

AristocraticChump
AristocraticChump
1 year ago

I found the tone of Gina Cherelus’ New York Times article rather disdainful and patronising and felt it was an opportunity missed.
Deliberately, or otherwise, I wonder if perhaps she confused seeking consolation and absolution with seeking understanding? I felt there was a touch of victim blaming with the added suggestion that Tracy was an enabler.

I felt the article read as if Gina hadn’t noticed that male chumps exist and are a hugely valued part of our community. Poor research? Who knows but quite a telling assumption that men aren’t amongst our ranks and readers. 

A recent comment of the academic Jennie Young’s sprang to mind, that feminism of necessity has had a long history of producing strong satire. By extension, I was reminded of Twain’s words – 
“Power, Money, Persuasion, Supplication, Persecution—these can lift at a colossal humbug,—push it a little—crowd it a little—weaken it a little, century by century: but only Laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of Laughter nothing can stand.”

(“The Chronicle of Young Satan” (ca. 1897–1900, unfinished), published posthumously in Mark Twain’s Mysterious Stranger Manuscript)

The humbug in this case being that infidelity isn’t abuse.

Tracy’s humour is curative. It exposes. It provides understanding, ‘not absolution’, which I don’t think any of us are seeking. We aren’t “allowing” Tracy to enable us to abnegate responsibility for the break-down of our relationships.

The commonality, the banality of cheaters is brought out and slain by the comedy both in the cartoons and the words. 

Again accessing Twain, which of our cheaters was not – “An experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often quite picturesque liar.”?
Mark Twain “The Private History of a Campaign That Failed“, The Century, Vol. 31, No. 2, December 1885[3]. Anthologized in The American Claimant, and Other Stories and Sketches (1898)

Show me a cheater who isn’t also a financial abuser.
It unsettles me that the writer of this NYT piece appears to support the idea that us little people can’t understand “complicated marital dynamics”. 
Infidelity is part of a palette of abuse. 
I spent three and half hours naked in bed while my cheater had a loaded weapon and no safety catch on. There was nothing I could do. 
He beat the living shit out of one of my animals. My husband was financially abusive, emotionally abusive, he told lies about me, he secretly monitored my social media, he controlled my movements.  I ran his business for him. I built a house for him. I was of use. He lied in court. He tried to blackmail me. He had a full, secret double life. He appeared to be a great guy. 
I’m sure I could have been a better wife but thats rather beside the point.
Tracy’s humour helps us understand what happened to us. 
I wasn’t seeking ‘absolution’, or ‘consolation’ when I first arrived at Tracy’s blog. 
I wasn’t seeking to abnegate responsibility for the failure of my relationship.
I was trying to work out what had happened to me. 
Back then, I hadn’t understood what my husband was, or known that there are so many like him. Now I do. 
My freedom and peace are beyond price. 
Like so many, I’m incredibly grateful to Tracy and the rest of ChumpNation for passing it forward, for the laughter, the understanding, the practical help. 
I think its a pity the New York Times didn’t take the opportunity to provide a good, bright beacon of help to show new chumps where to find us. 
We’re here to help, support, educate, protect. 
Not enable / ‘absolve’, in what I think is Gina’s sense.
Thats back to the same old thing of its your fault you were mugged…your fault you were scammed…your fault you were raped….your fault they were unfaithful to you….your fault they gave you an sti…

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago

I’m glad you survived and are with us.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

what is wrong with these men?? Why do they do these things??

Last edited 1 year ago by Chumpty Dumpty
Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

Humor and satire can be serious shit. Both are major tactics recommended in Gene Sharp’s bible of nonviolent resistance. This was used by OTPOR to take down Milosevic as well as by Arab Spring activists. Furthermore, studies of POWs show that those who engage in gallows humor have better survival rates.

hush
hush
1 year ago

Yet another weirdly manipulative diss article. The way these writers intentionally misunderstand our very simple message is wild. I assume the owners and editors are Team Cheater. That would explain this pattern.

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  hush

I think this was deliberate misunderstanding.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  hush

I don’t know about the current chairman AG Sulzberger but his dad, former NY Times chairman Arthur “Pinch” Sulzberger, is reportedly a serial philanderer. Wondering if the late Arthur “Punch” Sulzberger was as well (or worse if these nicknames are any guide).

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago

“jilted lovers eager for reassurance that being cheated on wasn’t their fault.”

Oh, is that what we are? LOL.

You know what, it’s fine. She doesn’t get it. That’s why Tracy and Chump Nation are so important as a support community. Whether a person is fortunate enough to have never suffered through infidelity, or they are a cheater themselves, most people do not get it.

Sometimes I get frustrated that this is the case. Nevertheless, if the tone-deaf article gets even one person to read the book and gets that person to find the legs to get out of a toxic and abusive relationship, then the ink was worth it, I suppose.

I hope the author of the article actually sits and reads the blog and goes onto the FB support pages to hear story after horrible story. What she’ll find is they almost always start off with “I know I wasn’t a perfect spouse, but…”

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Who could possibly be more “eager” (always makes me think of “beaver” lol) for self exculpation than a cheater? I mean aside from domestic batterers, serial killers and drunk drivers.

If anything, chumps end up having to jujitsu endless blameshifting blitzes.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago

Exactly!

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago

Absolutely. Self exculpation is a cheater’s stock-in-trade. It’s pretty galling to accuse chumps of scurrying off to a safe space for unqualified absolution after many of us have spent decades being blamed for everything from high humidity to the Kennedy assassination.

NotAnymore
NotAnymore
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

…and what would be the “perfect” spouse or girlfriend? From reading the celebrity magazines it doesn’t seem like beauty, success, or wealth protects you from infidelity.

So is partner supposed to just be selfless and wholly devoted to their spouse at all costs? My saint of a mother-in-law can tell you that being a cheerful doormat for decades didn’t protect her.

NO ONE is good enough for a cheater. Why? Because they aren’t that deep; they aren’t thinking about their spouse or partner at all. They just want to have sex. That’s it. Blaming their partner after the fact is just another way of deflecting blame and consequences.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago
Reply to  NotAnymore

Yup, their happiness is a constantly moving target. I just get so tired of the criticism towards chumps along the lines of “well, didn’t you consider your role in the infidelity?”

Oh, were we supposed to do that? [sarcasm]. Of course we did! Not only are chumps, by nature, a bunch of introspective naval-gazers who take on more blame and responsibility than we should, we were also constantly being told by FWs how we are to blame for their unhappiness and their actions. And when we confront the prospect of divorce and ask ourselves “should I be tolerating this?,” we are met by couples therapists who ask us how we contributed to the dynamic, and a culture that, apparently, thinks that infidelity is “no big deal.” So, get back in there and eat your shit sandwiches, chumps! You deserve your abuse!

Or, alternatively, fuck all that noise and leave.

The whole appeal to the “complexities of marital dynamics” is patronizing claptrap – as if we all didn’t live and breathe the “complexities of marital dynamics,” some of us for decades. You know what else is complex? A Ponzi Scheme. Just because it’s complex doesn’t means we have to try to understand it or be a part of it. What Tracy posits is that it’s really, really not that complex at all. Cheaters do it because they want to and they can, just as Ponzi Schemers run their schemes because they are greedy and want your money. The scheme may be complex, but the motivations are very simple.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Navel*, although some of us may sometimes stare off into the sea …

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

I can contemplate either navel or naval from my back deck.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago

Party at HOAC’s house!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

I love fall garden parties and now I might even have a garden for it. After growing kids to full height, I’m finally free to do the landscaping I always planned. I’ve been outside for two weeks moving four yards of gravel and at least three tons of dirt and planting everything ticks hate. When that’s done, I’ll fire up the neglected grill. 😉

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

YES!!! Well said.

itsme
itsme
1 year ago

I listened to the article- you just sign in and hit the link to “continue reading without subscription”… it’s a good six minutes I thought it was a fair description of Mrs CL wrapped in an article. Yes it could’ve ended better but it’s a good kickstart for a newbie
I’ve been here since about 2020 after reading Tracy’s book.
Someone told me get out now before it becomes your new “normal”.
I started college in 2022 and am earning (Lord willing) a masters degree in social work where I will help anyone I can to be better🤍 I appreciate this outlet, I don’t visit regularly feeling unworthy as I am not divorced as of now.
And if you’ve been cheated on, no, I don’t recommend

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  itsme

I saw that link, but I am a bit nervous about ads getting past my ad blocker.

I get the gist though.

itsme
itsme
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

Hi Susie- it’s Shann🤍

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  itsme

Hope you are doing well. Someone posted the article, so that is good.

Hope some folk who need help with this mess come on over. You don’t have to agree with everything but just to get another perspective. Sooo many folks can’t be all wrong.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

Hello! This is an excellent article in what is likely the most widely read American newspaper. A happy day of well-deserved recognition for Chump Lady!! Congratulations, Tracy!!! Woo hoo!! This is PROGRESS and a big deal!!!

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

Jilted: “suddenly reject or abandon (a lover).
“he was jilted at the altar by his bride-to-be””

A Chump is not jilted, they/we would have been so much better off if we had been. No a chump is used, financially abused and lied to for a period of time, many times if not most for years of having their agency stolen from them, then tossed aside like a used tissue. There is a huge difference between jilted and chumped.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

Not a total hatchet job like the last reviews from the Times and New Yorker but I have the sense the author was constrained by editorial bias.

Determining the Times’ bias on this score is a simple matter of using Noam Chomsky’s “column inch” measure. For instance, compare the number of times the Times has plugged Esther Perel (https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=Esther+Perel) against any article or editorial which explores an association between cheating with coercive control (goose egg) or, for that matter, which even discusses coercive control (scant).

Anyway, the author writes “Many are hesitant to label cheating abuse for fear of diluting a term usually reserved for more direct forms of physical or emotional harm.

At least this paragraph concludes with a link to CL’s recent call for “infidelity as abuse” narratives (Your Experience of Infidelity As Abuse) which encourages readers to check out the “horse’s mouth” perspective of survivors to counter the views of these mysterious “many.” But that’s also what bothers me about it.

For the moment, never mind how incredibly vague the statement is regarding what constitutes emotional harm or the fact that many of the behaviors commonly used to facilitate cheating precisely fit most definitions of emotional and psychological abuse, including those mentioned in a NY Times’ tweet intro to one of the scarce articles on coercive control from 2021 (“The term “coercive control” is used by some researchers to describe abuse that encompasses acts like creeping isolation, entrapment, denigration, financial restrictions and threats of emotional and physical harm that are used to strip victims of power.” https://x.com/nytimes/status/1352718977349394432?lang=gu). Also never mind that marital infidelity is factually one of the major drivers of new HIV infections around the world and how this and the standard financial abuse involved with infidelity are explicit examples of direct physical and emotional harm. Never mind that the enforcement of unilateral infidelity has been has been identified by social science researchers as a statistical driver in domestic violence and represents elevated risk (Testing the evolutionary hypotheses of marital conflict https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3583221/“A husband’s infidelity is associated with a significantly greater likelihood of wife abuse in the past year controlling for other factors (table 5). Adjusted odds of wife abuse are over five times greater if a husband had an affair.”). Instead I just want to point out a common tactic used by news publications that are biased towards a particular position or view, which is to present the favored view as “expert” (often including quotes from said experts) and then feigning a balanced approach by sourcing the less favored view only to non-expert plebians (you know, addled little regular Joes with their “anecdotal” ravings) despite the fact that experts representing the less favored view exist, may have heavier certifications than experts representing the favored view and are either available for comment or left a ton of readily mineable quotes in their wakes.

This is one of the ways biased publications cast less favored views as “fringe”– pitting lofty experts against lowly plebes. It’s done pretty subtly here because the mysterious “many” who apparently fear diluting concepts of domestic abuse by including infidelity are never named or quoted. “Many” implies majority opinion and also automatically implies experts or at least veteran victims’ advocates because… this is the NY Times. Whether this is true or not, we have been led to assume Times’ reporters don’t simply cite their gym buddies, random cab drivers or anonymous commenters on social media but have access to expert opinion.

In a perfect world, a journalist would flesh out these “many” who apparently feel that including infidelity under the banner of domestic abuse “dilutes” the concept and then quote other experts who hold the opposing view. But I think in this case the “many” is just the Times’ usual echo chamber– Perel and other shills cashing in on the media’s wag-the-dog cheater apologism bandwagon.

It might even have been an expression of sympathy on the part of this reporter towards the “cheating as abuse” concept not to plug and give clicks to the naysayers. Or it may simply be that the “many” naysayers were just a bunch of random trolls in faux feminist drag who attacked Tracy and Sarah Manguso on The Cut by muddling “sex positivity” with infidelity, dismissing the “cheating as abuse” concept as the whinings of sheltered, sex-neggy “white, middle-class elitists” and erecting a kind of moldy “pain Olympics” argument from the dark ages of domestic abuse policy that presenting psychological torture and coercion as abuse detracts from attention to overtly violent forms.

It generally strikes me that the Times seems to believe that the movement to legislate against coercive control and give attention to subviolent forms of domestic abuse died along with its most prominent veteran spearhead, forensic psychologist Evan Stark so that coercive controllers around the world can all breath a sigh of relief that the clock may shift back fifty years to a time when domestic abuse was viewed as only that which involved fists and tire irons and those pesky criminal laws in the UK may be overturned. So I’m going to end this with a palate cleanser excerpt from a paper by the late, great Stark:

https://www.ncdsv.org/uploads/1/4/2/2/142238266/fipvq_dangers-of-dangerousness-assessment_11-20-2013.pdf

There is another paradoxical outcome of focusing on severe and fatal
violence that has been less often noticed, that the declines in these forms of
abuse have been matched or even surpassed by sharp increases in the inci-
dence of so-called “minor” violence against women: slaps, punches, kicks,
and other abusive assaults that rarely cause injury. The substitution of minor
for severe violence would be a welcome change were it not for the fact that
the rise in low-level violence signals the replacement of traditional forms of
domestic violence with coercive control, the most devastating form of part-
ner abuse. Coercive control is a strategic course of oppressive conduct that is
typically characterized by frequent, but low-level physical abuse and sexual
coercion in combination with tactics to intimidate, degrade, isolate, and con-
trol victims. As we have come to appreciate what victimized women meant
when they insisted “violence wasn’t the worst part,” it has become clear that
an estimated 60% to 80% of those who seek outside assistance are experiencing this pattern of abuse rather than the types of physical and psychological
abuse to which most interventions respond. Injury, sexual violence, and
fatality remain important consequences of coercive control. But they typically
play a secondary role in eliciting its major consequences, hostage-like levels
of fear combined with a state of entrapment and subordination that is al-
most always grounded in material exploitation, deprivation, and regulation,
i.e., “control.” In coercive control, a victim’s vulnerability to severe or fatal
violence has less to do with the level of violence used than her incapacity to
effectively resist or escape abuse due to structural dependence, isolation, and
control. As importantly, in as many as one case of coercive control in four,
paralyzing fear, subjugation, and dependence, are elicited with little or no
physical abuse.
If the emphasis on severe violence has afforded limited protection to
abused women, it may also be responsible, at least in part, for the sharp rise
and even the normalization of low-level violence in abusive relationships.
This possibility was anticipated by British feminist Francis Power Cobbe over
a century ago. Cobbe (1878) argued that if laws targeted only the most severe
violence against women, they would raise the level of violence considered
“acceptable,” causing “minor” acts of violence to rise.12 This appears to be exactly what has happened. Indeed, men arrested but not sanctioned for multiple
acts of abusive violence commonly report that abuse has no consequences.

.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
Samsara
Samsara
1 year ago

Anyway, the author writes “Many are hesitant to label cheating abuse for fear of diluting a term usually reserved for more direct forms of physical or emotional harm.”

It is not hard to conclude that the unspecified “many” who are soft pedaling “hesitant” i.e. in reality they decline / refuse / reject infidelity as abuse are those who in all probability have cheated on their spouse or partner. They just “cube” like any other perpetrator. If infidelity is officially regarded as abuse then they themselves are officially abusers. Can’t have that.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Samsara

Or they’re “cubing” because their dads– who are still helping pay off their college loan debts– are/were cheaters and reflecting on this might lead to confrontation that would upset all sorts of apple carts. Or because they internalized the abuse they grew up with and, despite being perpetual victims themselves, take out their self-loathing on other victims. Or (one really weird one I ran into recently), they’re so burned out from the legacy of domestic abuse and infidelity in their families of origin that they’ve pretty much gone asexuel and can no longer relate to the idea that anyone could be intimately victimized because this would require a level of commitment and intimacy that they themselves feel completely averse to and see as weak.

There are so many motivations for “cubing.”

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
Samsara
Samsara
1 year ago

“There are so many motivations for cubing”. This!
Also this: as varied as the motivations for the cubing might be, the outcome is the same: the chump / victim is blamed and thus further abused.
And unsurprisingly, the same methodology is in play: a stunning lack of empathy…
Second victimization and third etc levels of re-victimization can hardly be addressed if we are stuck battling to get the first trauma acknowledged.
It is abuse heaped upon abuse. That is what these NYT commentators and the cheating-adjacent supporters willfully ignore.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Samsara

Sadly we’re still in the dark ages regarding domestic abuse and a long list of other humanitarian issues. Read Chris Hedges’ The World As It Is: Dispatches on the Myth of Human Progress.

Samsara
Samsara
1 year ago

Thank you for this reference Hoac!! Love your work 😍

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago

Exceptionally helpful as always, HOAC!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  demonwolf

Thank you for the kind thoughts and non-creepy hugs. xoxox

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

I should add that when I say “bias,” I don’t mean the NY Times has a “liberal bias” as Fox News puts it. If anything it’s got a corporate bias. Prof. Chomsky explains it better than I ever could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsiBl2CaDFg

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

Married to a MSM insider for 25 years and I’m here to tell you corporate media is a toxic patriarchy and television news is run by misogynists who love exploiting women and violence against women and children. This has nothing to do with “left” or “right”.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

I always quip that abusers should have their own sexual identity that has nothing to do with gay, straight, bi and is all about subjugating and victimizing. Call them “abusosexuals.” But you just made me realize that they need their own political party as well.

The thing is, I think it already exists. Because abusosexuals come in all stripes and political persuasions, naturally their political platform would transcend left, right or anything in between. Likewise, totalitarianism can be left wing or right wing. It represents such an ultimate betrayal of human values that it would naturally encompass and invite every other type of betrayal (and tends to. For instance, rates of domestic violence, child abuse, domestic homicide and slave labor always soar under totalitarian political systems).

Furthermore, totalitarianism is the ultimate “narc-friendly” form of government. Totalitarian political systems have been called “existential cults of salvation” (“salvation” = love bombing, charm offensives, playing hero) which are definitively based on caste systems which designate ruling elites as morally transcendent ubermensch. In other words, totalitarian rule is the existential replacement for “divine right of kings.”

What could be more cakey-entitled than that? Anyway, it’s the perfect FWitty political system.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago

The idea that any mainstream news platform has a liberal bias is laughable. Or it would be, if the normalization of cognitive dissonance didn’t represent such an existential threat. And of course Fox “News” is nothing of the kind, nor was it ever intended as such. It’s propaganda, as was its design from the beginning.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  demonwolf

I have a feeling you would really enjoy reading the play Pravda by Howard Brenton about Murdoch’s early days in media. I’m sure Brenton is mourning the fact his1980s script is more relevant than ever and that Murdoch’s propaganda tactics spread like the clap.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago

Going on my TBR right now. Thanks for the tip!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  demonwolf

I wish we could time travel and see the original London production starring Anthony Hopkins as the Murdoch-ish character. That had to be out of the ballpark great.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago

Without a doubt.

WrecktheRIC
WrecktheRIC
1 year ago

So proud of you and the momentum you’re gaining around changing the narrative for chump nation! Wish they allowed comments so they could see the support behind you.

Ka-chump
Ka-chump
1 year ago

I’m so happy to read any kind of acknowledgement of CL and her awesome work.

I suspect they grudgingly had to put out something / were forced to, so they don’t embarrassingly miss out on the Chump Revolution sweeping the planet… Kudos CL!💥💥💥

SecondSelf
SecondSelf
1 year ago

Y’all, I could not be prouder to be part of this community of witty, insightful, kind, and empathetic folks. The level of comment and input on this site far exceeds any other community, and that alone speaks volumes about the ideas being espoused here. (I mean, let’s be real. I just used the word “espoused” and no one will think its weird.). This is a group of super smart and well intentioned folks. It shines through. That alone speaks volumes about whether the ideas being discussed here are some kind of crazy nonsense. Clearly many of us, who can somehow present ourselves really well (and I would wager are pretty amazing folks IRL), do not find it to be nonsense. Point 1.

Point 2 – There is a ton of research brought to us by Hell of a Chump on the link between cheating and domestic violence. Many people tell stories here about the terrible things their ex has done IN ADDITION to cheating. Cheaters are not great people. My own ex is a lawyer defending the indefensible and accepting cash under the table for payment from time to time. Since he is supposed to be using his tax records to calculate child support – this is fraud directed at both me and the IRS. Post divorce, he lies to the kids and me on the regular and exhibits stalking- level behavior, wanting to know way too much detail about my whereabouts. His level of manipulation and crazy has my kids’ counselors shaking their head and saying ‘I’m so sorry.’ Not a stellar reference. And yet, the going in assumption is that these folks are well intentioned and made a little slip? No, these are folks at varying points on the spectrum of abusers. Research idea: identify the correlation between cheating and other abusive, criminal, or unethical behavior. We already know it is high for DV and cheating. It extends beyond that, I would bet, and demonstrates these are disordered individuals.

BeenThruIt
BeenThruIt
1 year ago
Reply to  SecondSelf

Agree. My ex was the same kind of lawyer.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago

Meh. I rage-quit the NYT when they hired climate-denier and mediocre white dude posing as a Thinker Bret Stephens and have never looked back. This article (if we can call it that) does nothing to make me question my decision.

Mobilizing the terms “chump” and “schmoopie” doesn’t really constitute inventing “a very particular language” to accommodate the radical idea (/s) that cheating is abuse. Okay, the “pick-me dance,” “hopium,” and “unraveling the skein” might possibly be considered specific-sociolect-adjacent. But they still don’t participate in the language-scaffolding of an artificial reality, as Ms. Cherelus stops just short of insinuating. Wanna know how I know? They’re permeable. They’re intelligible outside the borders of Chump Nation. Their significance — whether or not you agree with the premises that underpin them — is intuitively accessible. It makes sense. That’s the exact opposite of an alternate reality that has to be supported by a scaffolding of invented language.

As for the collective failure of CL and CN to allow for the “fine people on both sides” fake-nuance that DARVOs the shit out of marital betrayal — damn right, we fail to account for the endless complexities of human experience. We’re not deconstructing Shakespeare here. We’re helping people survive personal tragedy. Nuance isn’t the point. Fundamental reality is. Sometimes, there really is only one side to the story.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago
Reply to  demonwolf

“Their significance — whether or not you agree with the premises that underpin them — is intuitively accessible. It makes sense. That’s the exact opposite of an alternate reality that has to be supported by a scaffolding of invented language.”

Amen.

Option 1: Let’s spend $300/hour on a couple’s therapist to dissect the entire relationship and hang glittery baubles of psycho babble upon the mysterious behaviors of the FW (ohhh, it’s toxic shame! I should have known! Here’s my AmEx number. Let me gladly commit to another 10 years in this relationship.)

Option 2: The FW is an entitled person with a character deficiency who did what they did because they wanted to, and blamed you because they could, and it is unreasonable to expect that a functioning relationship can be salvaged with that person.

Option 2 is simple, direct, and, most importantly, the closest approximation of the truth.

Option 1 is convoluted, irrelevant, probably bullshit, and, most importantly, a fantastic way for a couple’s therapist to make money.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Option 3 might include what I studied as an advocate, namely “masked dependency” as a driver of domestic abuse– something to do with abusers’ self-generated, paranoid fears that all intimacy leads to betrayal so they’d rather be perps than victims. But if it ends the same as option 2, what should the “nuances” really matter to someone in the throes of crisis? It’s like asking someone in the middle of a bear attack to contemplate mammalogical behavioral science.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Exactly. Angels, meet pinheads. Most shit ain’t that deep.

CryMeARiver
CryMeARiver
1 year ago

Sadly, no mention of the UBT.
The lebkuchen eating, snark-genius, decoding machine that brings light, laughs and clarity just when we need it most.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 year ago
Reply to  CryMeARiver

If you can’t handle us at “Trust That They Suck”, they don’t deserve us at “Lebkuchen eating snark machine.”

CryMeARiver
CryMeARiver
1 year ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

Of course. I love that it’s a kind of special treat for chumps. We have walked through hell to arrive at the place where we understand that.

ChumpNoMore
ChumpNoMore
1 year ago
Reply to  CryMeARiver

The UBT is a work of pure fucking genius.

FreeAtLast
FreeAtLast
1 year ago

The NYT is afraid of the Chump Lady! They push the hopium agenda of the Polyamorous Marriage. How cool, how sophisticated… Barf!!

Elsie_
Elsie_
1 year ago

The New York Times, wow! I wish that it had been a more thoughtful, well-reasoned piece, but the word got out, even if it was a dicey article in places. Hopefully, people will investigate and come here.

I didn’t find Chumplady until post-divorce. My ex was ramping up closeout into yet another fight (why?), even proposing that HE write the legal orders to divide the assets and that we ditch the attorneys. It was so bad that I had a standing weekly phone call with my attorney, and he got rather incensed when I told him that I was keeping my legal team in place, but my ex proposed that HE take charge. My attorney did not tell his that, but did set up a phone call with my ex’s attorney to confirm what needed to be done and emphasize our displeasure with how closeout was going. His attorney was sympathetic but used a phrase that he had repeated before, “I have a delusional client.”

In the midst of that, I discovered Chumplady learned that it was A-OK and even healthy to be outraged at how my ex had blown up our marriage and treated me during the legal proceedings. In other words, I found my voice at long last.

In the months after and as the pandemic descended on us all, I worked my way through the website bit by bit and listened to every interview that I could find. I also found a Divorce Minister there, which helped me work through the religious aspects of my split. I also attended Chumpaloza, a highlight of 2023.

But yes, bring ‘um on.

Last edited 1 year ago by Elsie_
Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago

Would it be possible to get permission to reproduce the article here? No way to view it on the Times as you know.

I’m sure the Times had the usual Cheater Establishment baloney trying to water down the impact of infidelity and mock those of us who take it seriously or have been hurt by it. After all, the Establishment always promotes promiscuity as much and often as it can because healthy families hurt the Government. It’s also part of a general culture of narcissism, crassness and lack of responsibility that has become the norm since the 60s. Keep fighting the good fight, Tracy, you keep gaining support. I was on Quora the other day and noticed a topic on cheating and down the rabbit hole I went. Almost all the folks on there -and there are thousands….DO NOT advocate getting back with a cheater, but instead, become independent and get a divorce. Those who reconciled admitted that even if they thought they had a “good” marriage it was troubled by the memories of the affair(s). They never really got over it, which is my experience and I think that of most people. Better to be honest, fish and cut bait.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago

I found the undertone in the line about how CL “absolves the betrayed of having a role in their betrayal” moronic. It’s as if the writer thinks this isn’t just common sense, but a novel view of betrayal. You might just as well say “absolves the raped of a role in their rape.” in that same tone.
I could tell it wasn’t going to be good when it led with the language rather than the leave a cheater philosophy. It reads like a subtle way to try to undermine CL’s credibility. The message is; “She uses mean words, so don’t listen to her.” How immature and lacking in a humor gene this person must be. We like the language *because* it’s irreverent, not in spite of it, because humor helps us to heal, as does bringing cheaters and APs down to the level they deserve, with none of that “but you should try to understand their feeeeelings” bullshit. No, their feelings can fuck off and we aren’t going to humanize them. They are fuckwits and schmoopies and they suck. Some things really are that black and white.

This article seems to be typical NYT clickbait crap. What a shit publication it has become.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

This is an unfair reading. The author is saying that CL tells victims it isn’t their fault they were cheated on, which is true.Don’t pile on, it’s a good article written in good faith.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

Yup.

Dudette
Dudette
1 year ago

Dear New Readers,

In case it helps, one more perspective.

After the shocking discovery of my ex-h’s affair and subsequent ‘successful’ divorce (thanks to the good fortune of finding an incredible therapist) . . . I continued to search for understanding of what happened . . . and so I stumbled across Tracy’s website . . .

**SIDE NOTE AND WARNING: There are a lot of horrible therapists out there and I am forever grateful for finding someone who was incredibly clear and insightful – literally, I owe my therapist the life that I’ve gained. It is entirely possible that Tracy’s website will be this same lifeline for you**

My post-divorce plan was to write a memoir. I was certain that the shocking details of what my ex had pulled on me would, without a doubt, be a bestseller. I mean, what kind of person does these things to someone who they’ve exchanged vows with? To someone who they’ve been married to for decades, and had children with?

Unfortunately my memoir plans were derailed because I stumbled across Tracy’s website. I was shocked to learn that the many things my ex pulled on me were, in fact, part of a time-worn playbook that was previously unknown to me. Literally everything my ex said and did to me has been documented by Tracy and her readers. So much for my best seller.

The NYT author focused on terminology and other factoids that pull the conversation away from the truth of cheating: it is the most damaging, earth shattering, devastating, life-changing event to (hopefully) survive. The person who you had chosen, exchanged vows with, committed to, made a family with – the person who you honored, even though you too might have felt profound feelings of loneliness – has actively lied to you over and over again. Her NYT article does not touch upon this truth.

If you have arrived at Tracy’s website because cheating has impacted your life in some way – please know that you will find a depth of experience, snark, humor and truth that is well beyond what you might have expected. I am sorry that you are here. But I hope that the universe has led you to this site, to develop a sense of strength and peace and understanding, to move forward with your life in a meaningful way.

This is a community of chumps who through no fault of their own have experienced a profound betrayal. The daily gift of reading Tracy’s humorous snark and insight is invaluable. I wish the NYT author was able to convey that understanding. But I recognize that “Til It Happens to You” (look it up), the NYT author, and most people, just won’t get it.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago

A woman on my professional list serve posted today asking off-topic for marriage counselor recommendations.

I contacted her directly, told her I hope it’s just for a tune-up, and advised her that even if so, she should protect herself financially, accept that she doesn’t know what she doesn’t know, and check out both Chump Lady and Second Saturdays for financial protection information.

Could we get the word out by putting a simple info sheet/ flyer in waiting rooms at key locations, like therapists’ offices, domestic violence shelters, and libraries? Could someone here make something that we could print out and copy?

Elsie_
Elsie_
1 year ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

I met my wonderful attorney at a Second Saturday. An older woman checked us in (his wife and the business manager).

Two well-dressed attorneys came in and gave various talks, and there was a white-haired guy in just a shirt and tie that periodically appeared. He brought in chairs and handed out kleenex at times. At the break, he handed out water bottles. I figured he was a senior paralegal or something.

Then I heard him talking to someone about “his firm,” so I asked the woman next to me who he was. He was the founder and managing partner! She said, “If you have a rough case, he’s the one.”

Yes, he was the one. Thoroughly humble and pleasant while being an incredibly good attorney.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago

Instructions for how to write and article on this blog;

1) Remove stick from ass.

2) Open mind.

3) Read multiple blog posts *and* the responses to them.

4) Focus on the ideas, not the language. See the beneficial effect the ideas have had on the people who post here.

5) Do look for the POV of the ROC for contrast, but try to maintain a modicum of skepticism about self titled “infidelity recovery experts.” This isn’t a field of academic study, so there are no experts. There’s what makes people’s lives better and what doesn’t, and you base that on evidence, not the pompous pronouncements of somebody who charges $10,000 for a “marriage recovery retreat.”

6) Regarding evidence; remember to read the posts here specifically from people who have left and are now happy. Then go to a support forum that slants towards reconciliation (for example, one with the initials SI) and observe the number of “reconciled” relationships in which the cheated on people who stayed are shocked to discover that -gasp!- they were cheated on again! Read also the ones from people in the thick of trying to reconcile, where the cheater is not cooperating at all and shows no real remorse, and the chump is being told to “be patient” by pro-reconciliation posters.

7) Draw a logical conclusion from your observations about which approach seems to lead to a better life and include it in the article.

8) Look for a new job, because the NYT is not going to publish anything that intelligent.

Last edited 1 year ago by OHFFS
ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

Also, how many in those forums are playing an endless game of Marriage Police, and tying themselves in knots to try and meet the ever-changing “needs” of their spouse? They are also conditioning their FW to realize that cheating = lots of relationship changes in their favor. Dear psychologists: what can we expect from positive reinforcement of certain behaviors?

There’s oh so much money to be made in treating the symptoms, and far less money to be made in the cure. LACGAL is the cure, and that really seems to piss off a lot of people. Good.

OHFFS
OHFFS
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Good point. Those cheaters must be in hog heaven with their chumps endlessly trying to meet their “needs.” Naturally, the fuckwits keep moving the goalposts so they can never be satisfied and always have a handy excuse to cheat.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago
Reply to  OHFFS

It’s basically doctor-prescribed Centrality™️ for people with moderate-to-severe Cluster B personality disorders.

Bluewren
Bluewren
1 year ago

What kind of writing is this?

Is it a thing just to dump a word salad on paper and walk away from the table now?

Yet another woman denigrating those who have been harmed and yes ABUSED and who dare to have something to say about it that doesn’t involve excusing abuse or scrambling for a way to make it at least some of their fault.

The only person at fault is the cheater- period.
This is about CHEATING and LYING, not about who loaded the dishwasher wrong or who had the worst music on road trips.

If people don’t understand this, it hasn’t happened to them- yet.

Elsie_
Elsie_
1 year ago
Reply to  Bluewren

Precisely. Years later, certain people talk to me as if I was to blame or could have stopped the train wreck. No, that was on him, period.

Even his own attorney came around and told mine that his client was a horrible human being.

Our mutual therapist told me that some people shouldn’t marry, and my ex was one of them, in her eyes.

Last edited 1 year ago by Elsie_
new here old chump
new here old chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Elsie_

I love it. A therapist and a lawyer agree- some people are crap.

Chumpcat
Chumpcat
1 year ago

I commented last time one of these hacks wrote a dismissive oversimplification of Tracy’s work. I spent so much wasted time reading the drivel posted by the RIC cheater apologists after my “D-year” (repeated discoveries, lies, attacks, gaslighting, all of it). I believed the lies, that I contributed to it, that if i was better somehow, more evolved, more forward thinking my marriage could emerge stronger. Tracy and this community shed light on the truth, with snarky wit to help me laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of what cheating really is. Tracy you and this community helped me regain my sanity and possibly saved my life. Thank you all.

2xchump
2xchump
1 year ago

Just got in after using my Google account password. Anyway I think it was very good for someone looking at the tip of the iceberg and gathering a synopsis of Tracy’s work. It seemed to end abruptly? Boom! Alot more could have been said to tie it up a bit neater…though I may not have been able to see the entire article. I love the inclusion of the cartoons and the words Tracy uses. It is an IN to.the big crazy world of liars and cheaters and IT MAKES SENSE! I know Tracy must SCARE THE DAYLIGHTS out of cheaters for knowing their modus operandi secrets…SOMEBODY TOLD ON THEM. SOMEBODY IS READING THEIR MIND!!! It scares the volunteere who are staying in this dynamic of abuse and are frozen in their desire to win the pick me dance and roll that dice. And it scares chumps like me that barely made it out alive as the cheating and abuse escalated. It could have been the worse end of story.. it scares ALL OF US but in the end we need to get angry and act. Thank you Tracy. You ARE changing the narrative one cartoon, one book at a time. Let’s keep going!!!

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  2xchump

The article did seem to end abruptly. Did an editor cut it radically for word count? Guess we’ll never know.

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago

Meanwhile, down the hall at the NYT, David Brooks is busy penning his next column on how single mothers and divorced couples are the cause of the downfall of Western Civilization™️, and the reason his Glenlivet now costs $15 a glass at the airport bar. Tsk tsk. I guess we chumps have a lot of explaining to do to the NYT.

demonwolf
demonwolf
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Priceless!

new here old chump
new here old chump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpDchump

Regardless of how truly disappointing The Times is, with this piece and in general, huge congratulation to Tracy Shorn! And there is no such thing as bad press. I found this place because after I read Liars by Sarah Manguso I felt SO understood. And that she articulated my LIFE. It is the best novel about cheating since Days of Abandonment. Then, I read The New Yorker thing. And WTF. It was so stupid and mean. Also, I had not read the acknowledgments to Liars. Don’t even get me started on a book critic doing that and then attacking a support group mentioned in the acknowedgments (fire her!)- whatever, it was so dumb and bad. BUT because of that bad review, I am here. And now, I feel like I’m with my people. It’s not so hard to understand that cheating isn’t a “thing”, it’s a plan, it’s calculated and it’s a reality stealer, the most severe emotional abuse. Mine was coupled with physical abuse, but as anyone knows, it’s the emotional abuse that is hard to shake. This is FACT. A black eye heals, to regain in trusting yourself, knowing yourself, after all that brainwashing, is a much longer journey. This group makes it less lonely, and – quicker! It’s HEALING. And it’s 100 percent just truth. I called my time in marriage counselling abuse enhancement! Then I come here and see Reconciliation Industrial Complex!!! I was not ALONE and I no longer need to (to myself) defend my opinion. It was throwing money at a garbage spewer! Praise Tracy!

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
1 year ago

Welcome! I’m glad you found us, and I’ll admit to having found this place through a bad book review, too. I read book reviews on Lundy Bancroft’s “Why Do they Do That?” and on “Leave a Cheater, Gain A Life,” and there was some dude leaving reviews on both books that if you’re a good Christian, don’t buy these books. It encourages women to “get uppity” (gist only — I don’t remember the exact wording) and decide to leave their men. So if you want your marriage to last, don’t buy either of those books. I, of course, immediately bought both books.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

yes, “abuse enhancement”. You have to be a cruel person to do what they do. (Including Vikki Stark, guys, I’m sorry, beware, read her book by all means but do NOT use her as a marriage therapist, she will “both sides” you!)

ChumpDchump
ChumpDchump
1 year ago

Yes, you are right. Tracy got her voice heard in a major publication. And, I am so happy you are here! Any new Chump who finds their way to one of the support areas will be welcomed with open arms. Heck, if Ms. Cherelus came into the group on a listening tour, I’m sure she would be welcomed.

I have my hackles up today because I am very defensive of this group.

2xchump
2xchump
1 year ago

As long as we believe we have a role in our abuse and are complicit with our abuser, we will remain abused, disregarded and dehumanized. We are brain washed to believe we have no choice but to try harder. BUT if we finally believe we were not the reason for this cheater and liar to abuse us and enter our minds and body’s to dehumanizing us, then we have choices and an open door. We must break that bond and escape to freedom. Tracy is one of the few who gets it to her core. The world will come to know her and us as we struggle to tell the truth. The truth will not go away with detractors or editorials written by cheater apologists. It will remain because it is true. Cheating is abuse. Period.