How Quickly Can You Suss Out a Cheater?
The Friday Challenge question is: How quickly can you suss out a cheater? A woman reports on her first date and realized that — thanks to Chump Nation — she was dealing with a FW within hours.
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Dear Chump Lady,
Here’s a story Chump Nation would enjoy.
I went on a date with a FW and sussed him out within 2 hours.
I’ll tell you what happened, but first, for a fun challenge, test your bullshit detector, and see if you can predict what my story might include. I gave myself eight points, one for each indicator, but you and your readers might spot more.
Here’s what happened.
Via text, he told me that he was building a sensory garden. I liked the idea of that and it quickly became evident that we both love garden centers. Since I wanted a few plants anyway, even though the relationship was very new, we arranged to meet in a local nursery.
Before the date, he shared his full name, LinkedIn, and Facebook profiles, which wasn’t something I had requested.
The first hour of the date went well. He happily told me about a fantastic adventure he’d just been on, touring the country in his RV. The trip had taken him about 6 months, and the whole thing had been fun and spontaneous. I was curious and concerned because most 55-year-olds have jobs, but it wasn’t a deal-breaker
A bit later, I started asking him about his kids.
He was noticeably upset as he explained that he didn’t have a good relationship with any of them. He hinted at parental alienation but didn’t come out and say it.
His second marriage came to an end because she was an alcoholic.
Next, I decided to ask him some hard questions. “Did his relationship with his second wife overlap with his marriage to his first wife?”
“Just a tiny bit,” he replied.
I listened without judgement and questioned him further. He told me about his teenage daughter who is still in high school. He said his ex-wife complains that he hasn’t paid her child support, “but that’s complete rubbish.”
That’s where I picked up my plants and made my excuses. I had imagined it would be hard to spot a FW on a first date, but thanks to Chump Nation I’ve been well educated.
Surely it can’t always be that easy, can it?
Thanks for everything you do!
6 Years from D-Day
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Dear 6 Years from D-Day,
Hurrah for boundaries! As I say here a lot, don’t date unless you can dump and be dumped. It’s all about discernment. Well done on nope-ing yourself out of there.
My title for this post is a bit misleading, about sussing out cheaters, however, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If you suss out fuckwits first, you can spare yourself a lot of future misery. But the trap so many of us fall into is thinking we need a relationship so badly, we’ll work with whatever.
No! You are the decider!
JUDGE! You and you alone decide what you will put up with. Of course, people can deceive you and pretend to share your values. But always pay close attention to their character over time. This guy saved you the trouble, waving his red flags from the beginning.
The bitch be crazy ex-wife narrative would be my top red flag in that situation. If she’s such an alcoholic, why does she have full custody? And the misogynistic trope of the gold digger who wants her child support would have me lobbing ficus plants at his head.
But you made your exit and escaped, so well done.
Now it’s CN’s turn. Tell us about your new powers of discernment. Have you nope-d your way out of any sticky situations lately? Sussed out a cheater? Turned down a FW? Or enjoyed a nice evening home without any drama?
Rock on with your new lives and TGIF!


After my divorce was final, I started to dip my toe into dating. I met up with a man for brunch. I was about 45 at the time and he was close to 60. He was a brain surgeon and seemed to be quite the catch. He was chumped by his 2nd wife. After we ate we decided to go to a quiet mall and walk around and stop for dessert. He told me about how his wife really broke his heart by leaving with some guy in her cycling club, and then he said “I really didn’t understand how my first wife felt until it happened to me.” And I said “What do you mean?” He said “well, about 15 years ago, I cheated on my first wife with the one that just left me. She was one of my nurses.” Then he started telling me how his kids won’t talk to him. And said “once I felt the pain my first wife did, I made amends and gave her a huge check for the money I owed and apologized. So it’s all good now.” I started crying right there. What an ass. He was shocked. I said “all this time, you’re a cheater and you want sympathy because you got cheated on by the person you left your wife for? All this time you had no empathy for what you did to your wife — until it happened to you?” He could see my disgust. Anyway, date over. My sister was mad at me because she wanted me to date a brain surgeon. No thanks.
Also noting that he wanted to day you, someone 15 years younger and in the prime of life when he’s rounding the turn for the last stage of life.
“and gave her a huge check for the money I OWED”–oh oh! 😅
Go you! Such good boundaries
Jesus i would’ve laughed and said “well suckers to you then old boy”. I’m in my unsympathetic era though.
Maybe this surgeon performed a lobotomy on your sister which is why she thinks a significant age-gap relationship with a cheater would be fab?
WTF is wrong with your sister?!
“WTF is wrong with your sister?!”
Where do I begin? She has her own set of issues — we no longer talk (she’s cut out most of the family, including me — her only sibling). From her point of view, it would be better that I date this dickhead simply because he was a rich successful doctor and that would be a way of “getting back” at FW. She’s all about anger and revenge. I’m not that gal. The way I see it, I’m not dating an asshat Cheater to impression manage for the FW. Fuck them all.
The real point of my story was I was with this dick doc about 2 hours for a first date. The longer you can spend TALKING with narcissistic FWs on a first date, the more likely they are to just reveal their truth and expose themselves for who they are. Because most see nothing wrong with what they did. This guy — an actual BRAIN SURGEON — thought telling me that he wrote a big check and apologized to his chumped 1st wife (15 YEARS LATER) made up for everything 😂 And his now adult kids still hate him.
This is just recently since final Divorce at age 69 on July 2023. Moved to save my life to a 55plus community. Met cheater #1 who told me he was divorced as his wife wanted to help with grandkids and move to Wash DC without him. At First, seems outgoing, funny…he opens arms for hugs, but i give wide steps around him. No hands on. Later find out his X wife moved back in with him but he still says he’s divorced and open for business. I told him to get lost as he still had her living with him!!! He got really angry…another sign. Beep next..another guy had a girl friend coming over to use the exercise room. A few days later this cheater finds me in the exercise room, touches my arm and shoulder while I’m on the stationary bike and says he and his girl friend are fighting alot and he was open to have” other friends”. Cheater alert. #2 Stopped being friendly immediately and no talking to him at all. Since D Day I’ve found the married or taken geezers are happy to go behind backs. And this is the over 60 age group. Momma mia! My cheater alert goes off because of my x2 life events so I see them everywhere. I’m trying not to see them all as such but it’s hard right now.
If a man says very early on in a dating scenario that his ex wife was an alcoholic and that’s why his marriage broke up, you can be pretty sure it’s him that’s the problem, not her.
If they make a point of telling you TMI information about their last relationship and all the things his ex did- IT’S HIM.
Remember that it could well have been that, but use discernment. I was married to an addict with mental health issues. The secret sexual basement came late in the marriage, as far as I know.
When I meet someone new who seems interested in me, I usually say that it was a divorce that had to be and that he lives in another state. I add that I haven’t heard from him in quite awhile. If they ask for more detail, I suggest that we need to get to know each other first.
Thus far, I’ve never gotten past the coffee date phase of dating though.
Married to an addict here too- and they lie about everything as we both know.
I can’t imagine dating again at this point.
Yes, addicts are liars. A friend who used to run a treatment center in Oregon said that was the most challenging part of his job. He also used to say that addicts don’t have relationships; they take hostages.
My ex was supposedly sober when he took off to another state, but who knows? I know that he lied quite a bit to his attorney because his attorney uncovered that and then ranted to mine about it. Not very professional, but I already knew that was going to happen. Addicts lie, after all. My attorney told me during the intake appointment that I must never lie to him. If I did, he would likely drop me as a client because he never wasted his time with liars.
But my ex’s attorney didn’t drop my ex for various reasons and got the divorce done. We never really knew the breadth of what happened there (his attorney died during closeout). And once my legal responsibilities were done, I stopped initiating contact with him. Not worth it.
I know a guy who escaped an abusive relationship and it’s telling I’ve never gotten the details from him but everyone else who witnessed it (the abuse, her diagnosis and eventual felony arrest). He fled the state, rebuilt his life elsewhere, went to therapy, and stayed single for a long time.
I’m suspicious of people who vomit their life stories on strangers and claim their exes just went crazy for no reason. The end of a relationship can be devastating especially where genuine mental illness is involved.
Yes- I don’t tell people I don’t know or have just met my lovely story and if I say anything it’s just cliff notes.
If it’s a FW, they’ll embellish and try to get in first with their version before someone tells their target the truth- and that won’t do!
Yes, and the creepy part is abusers PLAN that shit!
I dated an abusive guy in college and years later (through talking to other eyewitnesses and finding his old blog posts), I found evidence he was smearing me from the day we met. Hell, he was shit talking me the same week we’d reconnected and he took me out to lunch to apologize for his abhorrent behavior. Like hey asshole, YOU sought ME out! I didn’t need you to come back.
It just goes to show, abusers know what they’re doing and we mustn’t ever accept apologies from them. They’re not genuine, they’re just trolling for a punching bag.
That’s really scary duality, push/pull stuff. People who hate what makes them feel vulnerable tend to be dangerous. I think you dodged a huge bullet there.
I definitely did. He stalked all his exes (one so bad she transferred across the country). We only went on a few dates and he still stalked me for a year. He was a nut job – a textbook malignant narcissist and possibly a psychopath. I’m not sure where the line is between the two, but the guy was dangerous. Mean, vindictive, delusions of grandeur despite being a loser, and a sadist (he LOVED hurting women). I’ve met assholes in my time but this guy was seriously weird. More than one person remarked to me that talking to him was like trying to have a conversation with an alien.
This was 20 years ago, and nobody was talking about personality disorders back then. I only learned about them years later and was absolutely shaken to read there was a name for it.
There honestly wasn’t that much useful information on this back in the day– not useful for women or potential victims anyway. I had heard about “character disorders” because I’d been interested in forensic psych as a kid, probably because my parents were. My mother worked for the news related to crime reporting and made a ton of firsthand, unique observations about organized criminals and even a few serial killers. She was so cheerful about it too, lol. Absolutely nothing shocked her. Then my uncle studied organizational psych to apply to business and my father had survived a childhood in gangland and was also a disabled combat veteran. He clearly devoured stuff on sociology and the roots of human aggression as a way to cope. It seemed pretty natural to major in sociology.
But the problem back then was all the misinformation, predominant sexist theories and weaponized victim blaming. Oh yeah, and all the Freudian mommy blame in criminal psych. A few concepts I read about stuck with me but there wasn’t much “baby” in that junk science bathwater at the time. I even think it was actually psychologically dangerous for anyone young (especially anyone who wasn’t a wealthy white male) to study this without enough life experience to take the toxic bs with a big grain of salt. Plus the professors who taught this stuff were typically deeply invested and could be really punitive in defense of the most bigoted theories.
Probably out of self-preservation, I changed majors and lost interest for awhile until I started working in advocacy and discovered Evan Stark and a whole new reformist revolution. Within the context of interpersonal abuse and sexual violence, certain theories on personality disorder started to be clarified and became actually useful.
Victims of narcissistic abuse can habitually overshare while recovering from the trauma so I would not automatically pin that as negative. If the person is evasive about their own role in the divorce but has a litany of complaints about the crazy ex then yikes
Came here to say this. Thanks Archer, nice catch.
Raising my hand for the odd overshare even a few years out. Does not happen now unless I am 100% certain I am with someone who absolutely understands, can hold the (sacred) space for such an exchange of info and / or is a chump themselves and they are oversharing lol.
I can’t judge it though.
Being seen and heard is SO important for chumps – this allows all the trauma responses from the abuse to be managed. My experience is it greatly improves over time with distance and no contact. This is why dating too soon — and even making new friends too soon– is never a good idea post-chumping.
I agree. If you start dating too soon, you will probably give TMI just because it’s still so much in your head. However, if the breakup was not fairly recent, I would be suspicious of the motives of anybody who told me about a terrible ex right off the bat.
I respect that victims tend to overshare, having been there myself, but I can’t take that chance and in any case it means we’re not compatible right now.
Well, that it’s a good observation that oversharing means you’re at a different stage of recovery. And it’s possible that some people get stuck in the trauma and don’t do the work of processing it.
I was going to elaborate on this myself. But THIS.
Actually, cudos for her paying attention to his answers and not excusing them. He told her he was a cheater. She listened to him and she heard him. How fast can I suss out a cheater? not at all – so I stopped dating. I don’t trust myself
Red flags can come in different forms according to gender.
“How fast can I suss out a cheater? not at all – so I stopped dating. I don’t trust myself” Ditto. However, at some point in the future I may give it a shot. All of life is a risk, and if I find someone who is worth the risk I’ll probably take it. Not yet, but soon.
PS – I’ll take the risk, but sloooowly. There’s a difference between taking a chance and being an idiot.
I didn’t date, just relived abuse for a long time. Then when I did start again- I could suss them out! It took me a lot of time, and the last guy was a condensed version of control. abuse and lies and that was my DING moment. Since then, I can spot them so quickly. Give yourself some time. That said, I do what Tracy does- instinctively!- which is build my life, and if I am going to meet someone great, I will know. Not looking, but not not looking. One guy I went on 2 dates with? we did an event together. He eventually said his grandmother who rasied him and his ex wife were narcissists. this raised some red flags but sadly, I needed a few more. Which he provided! Then he asked me a professional favor, and started to stutter. And I “felt sorry” for him. This is my red flag. This is my OH NO moment. When they have some poor me thing. We had lunch. He had shown me his new manuscript/book which was written from a female POV and wanted me to show it to my editor. He started saying “this is what you write to him” and – that was so psycho. I said, I’m not doing that. And he began humiliating me. Once you see people for who they really are- and I am not proud it took me reliving it for so long after my horrific marriage/divorce- you can’t unsee it, someone wrote on FB chump nation I think. And that is where I am. My life is small, better, a little lonely, but so so much better. I am cliche I know, but I’m learning to love myself. And that is everything.
I don’t know if he was a cheater, but I quickly knew that I wanted nothing to do with him…
A family friend tried setting me up with a guy my age (both 40). This friend is elderly and I think her picker was skewed because she grew up in a generation where a man was considered a catch as long as he had a great job. If he was handsome and didn’t beat you? That’s a bonus.
Anyway, this guy is indeed very successful and very handsome. I was actually gobsmacked when I met him, because this dude seriously could’ve been a model. He was a successful businessman, very wealthy, active in his community… seemingly a catch.
Out of curiosity, I found his social media and discovered he was following tons of scantily clad women, sobriety inspo accounts, and right1wing influencers who’ve made fortunes ranting about gay people, immigrants, and uppity western women who don’t submit to men. Awesome.
I looked up his business reviews. Most of them were glowing, but it wasn’t hard to figure out one was fake and planted by the guy himself. Another came from someone with an Arab last name who related a horrible interaction with the guy who refused to serve him and basically told him to go back to his country.
I go back to my family friend and decline any further interest. That’s when she mentions the guy’s mother was pissed at him because he was bringing Tinder dates to her house to sleep with them! After spending weeks trying to convince me of this guy’s charms and earnestly telling me he’s looking for a wife!
I said, “[Friend], this guy is sleeping with strangers and following naked women on social media accounts he uses for business. Why would you think he’s looking for a wife?!” I kinda chewed her out.
In hindsight, I would’ve kept what I knew quiet because I’m sure she told him, as he deleted his accounts soon after. Now I never tell terrible people what I know. This way they fuck up for the next victim too. Never reveal your intel!
Was he a cheater? Possibly. But he was definitely a POS.
Oh! Forgot this red flag, but it jumped out at the time…
This guy had a female best friend he bragged about on his LinkedIn and instagram – which wouldn’t be weird by itself, but the way they spoke to each other was inappropriate and crossed boundaries. She also had photos on instagram of her posing in a skimpy dress in what was clearly his bedroom.
I said to my mom, “I’m not competing with some guy’s female BFF who obviously has a crush on him and/or has been sleeping with him.”
Even if they’re not sleeping with the “friends” or never would, I have no respect for grown-ass adults who surround themselves with unrequited admirers or don’t set impassable boundaries with colleagues who have lurking fixations.
The latter is grossly unprofessional and icky to be around in a work environment and a huge turnoff if you’re dating someone. For instance, if you’re the only one for whom some workmate of the corresponding gender and orientation puts exclamation points!! after every office email and does special little favors, if they “glow” too much when you’re around, there’s an encroachment happening. If it hasn’t been discouraged, it means the receiver thinks suckuppery its their due.
All that crap should certainly be cleaned up and hard lines drawn before anyone brings a serious partner to some office Christmas party. Seriously, if I even find a guy’s “friends” or work peers looking me up and down in that “threatened/territorial” way on first meeting them, I’m done. It means that friend/peer was having their hopes fed in some way, otherwise they wouldn’t dare slip and let it show.
It’s one thing if someone is super young and inexperienced and so desperate to “belong” that they can’t see through others’ ulterior agendas. But at a certain point being surrounded by lurkers is a major narc earmark.
Yeah, I dealt with this more than once in my teens. Never again. These people in my story were in their 30s and 40s!
Ew, no!
I started dating my FW several years after his divorce. His daughter was a young school-ager and he appeared to have an amicable relationship with his re-married wife. I realize now he never gave me a complete explanation of the reason for the divorce, claiming to have been blind-sided. Red flag.
I don’t date, but I routinely Wikipedia public figures to see the dates of marriages and children’s births. Disappointing.
Being an RN for 45 years I took note of how the men of power would talk about their unhelpful wives and what they were not doing for them. The woman who fawned would start making suggestions to improve that marriage…like being helpful. But really a poaching habit…always take note of men who talk negatively about their Xs or currents. One problems for me was I dated a man who did not blame his X except she had cheated. So I felt so bad for a Chump like me. However, his 11 year old daughter told me he had ” hit her mommy”. Well this was 35 years ago and he told me he would never again strike a woman as his now Xs brotheron laws threatened to kill him and he had “learned his lesson”. Although he never hit me during our years together, he developed an underground life where he devalued other woman and finally me at the end. His abusive nature went underground. I just can’t believe anyone after 2 cheaters and I’m happy to take my vows…though too late really. Wisdom comes with mistakes..but after.
“always take note of men who talk negatively about their Xs or currents.”
That’s what the “devaluation” stage of a relationship looks like in the wild–someone complaining about their current spouse or former one. It’s one thing for a Chump to talk to a friend about what happened to them; it’s another to tell random colleagues or someone on a dating site that your spouse doesn’t do enough you.
I talked negatively about my former spouse so that might not be a complete key. BUT I passed alot of red flags🚩🚩🚩🚩 BELIEVING people learn their lessons and change. HOWEVER, my now advice is..if you hear that who you are dating hit, cheated, did wrong and now is a new person.. ummmm..I’m sad to say I might stay a friend and not marry them,because character runs deep!! My second cheater had hit his first wife but said he was totally reformed. He didn’t ever hit me but he did devalue . He seemed to love woman but he later saw them as objects. So he morphed before my eyes and over30 years. His weak character just went underground and his mask got tighter.
I love the meme I saw about a bird never worrying about a branch they stand on breaking, because they trust their 🪽 wings. You have to know when to go and I did leave cheater #2. Amen hallelujah!!!
Lovedajackass..would this tactic work…..let your date fo ALL the talking..yes you just listen like an FBI double agent…oh EVERYONE LOVES to talk about themselves..listen to them and ask questions…on the first date or two or three. Very little about you. Do they talk about themselves? Are they central? Do they love their kids and animals? Are the exceptional to the staff and anyone you meet? As you listen, look for selfish, self-centered men or women. You’ll soon know who is #1. However, both my Cheaters did fairly well at first but I saw their controlling as LOVE telling me what tp do and never listening to a NO.🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩Missed alot as the physical soon took over. What to do about that chemistry and urge I have no idea. That makes the cake🥮
I had a lunch date with a man I met online over the summer. We are in the same profession and his parents had been neighbors of mine years ago so I was felt optimistic about the date. Things started to go south when he mentioned that his ex wife wanted out of the decades long marriage and was willing to walk away from their big house and all the expensive furnishings in exchange for her freedom. He claimed their split was a mutual decision because they hadn’t been intimate for a long time and she had mental health issues. Uh huh. Then he mentioned that he had loaned money to other women that he had dated after they had broken up but only if they “asked nice and weren’t dating anyone else”. Uh huh. No idea if he is a cheater but he definitely was entitled and liked having control and dominance in his relationships and that is as big a red flag as cheating for me. That was a “one and done” date for me and probably my last one ever. I’m too old and tired to keep sifting through all the dirt to find that one tiny nugget of gold.
“I’m too old and tired to keep sifting through all the dirt to find that one tiny nugget of gold.”
I am not in a position to date yet. D-Day 4.5 years ago. There was much chaos and fuckwittery and that left me here, through with mediation, awaiting a court date to get a judge to approve the decree. If all goes well, it will be 6 more months until it is finalized.
But I won’t be ready to date then either. My current position is that I may NEVER be ready. But if I were, I’d take the stance of not actively looking but possibly being open if the right guy fell in my lap. (But they would literally need to fall in my lap, I hang mostly with my kids and married lady friends, not exactly on the singles scene) I cannot imagine trying to sift through the dirt, as you said.
I agree. Sifting through the dirt is just so very disappointing. I’ve gone on some coffee dates that went just like what you describe. The entitlement was horrifying to me.
The only halfway good one I went on was with a recent widow, and he talked about his deceased wife and the wonderful life they had. He clearly was looking for someone very similar to her to continue the story, and I’m not that.
It’s kind of damned if you do, damned if you don’t with widowers at my age (62) – either they developed shitty habits from their marriage or they had great marriages and you will constantly be competing with the dead wife’s ghost.
I’m just a bit older than you, and definitely a factor with guys our age no matter the circumstances. There’s a certain rigidity that is concerning. They can’t form a new, mutual relationship somehow.
My ex was a very rigid and controlling person from the very beginning and remained so until the very end. Personally, I cannot imagine ever being with someone like that, but last I knew, he was in a longer-term relationship. I hope she sees him for what he is at some point.
Well, and if he’s still with the same woman, he has money. She does not. I realize that some will stick with it just for that.
Or it may be that her picker is set to “very rigid and controlling.” She may be still at the stage where being part of a couple is all that matters.
Yes, I am no longer out there trying to find a good one, they can find me. If not, I have a full life.
Yes, I feel that way too. If a good one drops into my life, well then, fine. If not, fine too.
Me too. Although I’m really not interested in dating, or another relationship. I do things I enjoy, some of them with like minded people, and that’s it. I just can’t even imagine living with a man anymore, having to pander to someone else’s tics, foibles, and expectations. No thanks! Maybe because I’m almost 73! But having boundaries is paramount, and being able to recognise red flags in social interactions is good too. CL has added to the sum of human intelligence, bless her forever!
We’re the same age and the most I would aspire to is having someone to occasionally have dinner with.
My Fuckwit Red Flags have been:
1. Guys getting annoyed when I didn’t throw them a parade for doing a basic human kindness. Next.
2. Not buying into their ‘my ex wife is a crazy bitch’ and being annoyed when they saw I wasn’t. Next.
3. One guy told me he smoked pot at night to help him sleep & apparently it was a problem with prior GFs. Okay, got it, you’re a pot head. Been down that road before with a BF, the actual pot smoking was before work, lunchtime, happy hour, etc etc. Next.
4. One guy told me that some internet woman got money out of him & no female was ever going to make a fool out of him again. Let’s go on a date again, guy. Not. Don’t blame all women because you were catfished. And besides, it was probably a guy that catfished him. For some reason, that irritated the fuck out of him for me pointing that out. I had sympathy for him but honestly just give up dating if you’re angry at all women. Next.
5. Nah, I’m just exhausted from writing this today 😅
If there is anything that grinds my gears, it’s the “I had to leave my wife, she is crazy…of course she got full custody of the children”.
If a wife truly had serious mental health issues, it would be a father’s role to keep his kids safe – with them either in a different home or in the one he shares with his wife (who should have good mental health care). If she is an addict/alcoholic, OF COURSE he needs to be the sane parent.
When, I met husband 2.0, he was respectful of how he spoke of his former spouse, he was fair (over generous actually) with his settlement and was generous with his daughter with both his money and his time. His good character showed at every turn. The XW (long remarried) however treats me like crap when I have literally never wronged her in any way.
As for identifying cheaters, I met a woman who told me that she asked every first date if they had ever cheated on their first wife. She got 53 straight “Yes” answers and was shocked at how open they were to admitting it. She had no second dates with any of them. Her 54th try was a widower who said “No, I loved my wife”. She married him. Im not saying that finding a partner is this straightforward, but it worked for her.
” She got 53 straight “Yes” answers and was shocked at how open they were to admitting it.”
I guess that goes to show how so many people don’t think cheating is a big deal? I am still surprised that so many cheaters were honest.
Well, they just “grew apart” so cheating was inevitable…
I wonder if the cheaters figured that their slate was cleaned due to the divorce. I also wonder if maybe they were hoping to hear that the woman on the date had cheated too (“She is a fun one, not hung up on stuff”) and were disappointed when answering yes was followed by her ending the date soon after.
I found an attractive, age appropriate, successful man local to me…as soon as we connected, he asked to meet for a drink that evening. I think he was really horny and seeking a quick release. Within minutes it was clear that I was not a bootycall gal, I was wife material and not going to have sex with him that evening. I spoke of death of my husband and he said he “had to” get divorced. He realized that he was out of his league and barking up the wrong tree. (metaphors much?).
I was glad I had some of the bummer interactions with men during my few months of dating before I was reunited with now-husband…seeing what was out there helped me recognize a good one when I saw him.
Yes, I went for a coffee date with a guy a few years ago who told me the story about how he “had” to leave his wife and how she ended up with full custody. Mmm. A grown man? Because my ex played it that way (“she’s crazy, I had to run!”), I was a skeptic. Then he threw in that actually he was a raging alcoholic then and that he had struggled with sobriety ever since but had been abstinent for a few months. My ex was an addict, and that ended it for me. No chemical addiction history unless it’s years ago.
I will state that I am glad I am not in the dating pool. I was luck to have found my BF who was also a chump. Unfortunately, cheating has become kind of normalized in almost every age group. I hear about this from a variety of sources but work has been primary because for some reason, people love to tell me their stories. Sometimes, it is coworkers and other times, it can be random people at work. The first instance was guy doing security checks on one of my people. I answered the questions and he just started chatting. Eventually, he decided to state that he was polyamorous. I noticed that he wore a wedding ring so I just asked “well does your wife know about that?” The guy left as though there was a fire in my office.
The next guy, was just a coworker who was talking about his crazy ex-girlfriend who was in a rage about him seeing his ex-wife. So he did the whole bitch be crazy talk and then I asked why seeing the ex was such a big deal when they did shared custody. He then responded with well we are not exactly divorced yet! What the hell is “not exactly divorced yet”? To me it seems like I am still married but heck even that is fluid now according to some.
A female coworker (married) also mentioned how she seeks “companionship” while on business travel because her husband did not meet her needs. This just shows that cheaters come in all flavors. I just think that no one wants to have the conversations any more. If your needs are not being met, why can’t you tell your partner? You should be able to have the honest discussion and if you can’t do that, get help and if that does not work then leave. Don’t just cheat! Sorry, kind of frustrated about this stuff today.
I have noticed this widespread lack of integrity too, and it’s depressing.
On the plus side, people are proud to admit their shittiness as if it’s a contest, so at least they’re fairly easy to spot.
I know I would have extreme issues spilling my guts out to a stranger but some people do it like they are proud of the fact!!!
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people no longer want to have a conversation with their partner or maybe they just enjoy hiding things from their partner. I am deeply saddened by the world at time and I am glad that have a very comfortable relationship where I can bring up anything bothering me with my BF (and vice versa) and we work it together. Neither of us are perfect but we care.
Yes, I’ve noticed that. While I hold back the details of my own messes, they are willing to go on and on about their addictions, financial problems, horrid ex, unappreciative kids, rotten boss, etc. etc. There are just a lot of people out there with baggage that are willing to fling it open for all to see, and I’m mainly among “church people” when I chat with a single guys.
Just no.
I myself am not dating but I was recently at a party with a bunch of single or soon to be divorced friends, and a man showed up whom many of us didn’t yet know, including me.
Something about how he interacted with this mostly female gathering struck me as off, like he was clearly hunting for a new target, but when I found out who his ex wife is I immediately knew I was in the presence of a FW, as I knew her and had commiserated with her the year prior about her long-time marriage. That evening he made a comment about her that made me uneasy, seemed misogynistic.
I went home and texted her and we planned to meet up. Over coffee she confirmed many things for me. Cheater, financially abusive, addicted to porn, grown kids won’t speak to him, etc.
I warned my friends who know him or met him at the party. I am steering clear and they might want to do the same!
I am grateful for all I haved learned from CN and everything Tracy writes. Definitely help sharpen the gut senses about the disordered!
My ex lives in another state, and I haven’t seen him in years. I can only imagine how he is charming people where he landed because he was always that way. He presents very, very well and has money. When he left, people couldn’t imagine how he could do that because he was such a wonderful, outgoing family man. Behind the scenes, he was an addict with significant mental health issues and a secret sexual basement.
Yes, hunting for the next “meal,” indeed.
Still not in the right headspace to date yet. Still unpacking and disarming trauma responses and cognitions(actually got quasi-asked out, which was neat, but I’m not ready). Am rather enjoying not having to be in “go mode” for things like seeing in laws or making the next two months special (it always went Christmas, Her Birthday, V-day, and our anniversary right in a row). I am cherishing my time with friends more and am making some much more serious creative headway.
The red flags that stood out to me most in that narrative?
-“Here is all of my social media.” Like, my dude. It’s easy to have multiple accounts rolling. “Here is my public face.” I wonder if he made his “name” just different enough to not cross over between however many cons he is running.
-6 month RV trip. Huh. Neat. With who? I’ve met people that have done the “go and see the world in a camper” thing/ You don’t need a whole RV to see it by yourself.
-“My ex wife was an alcoholic.” Others have hit on this beautifully for me already-already oversharing. Might I add, and personal trigger and “deal breaker” for me-this is somebody that needed a lot of care, support, and love to overcome a disease. Love, care, and support I imagine the FW received pretty unconditionally.
-Strained relationship with children-you know, people are allowed to have alcoholic ex-wives and kids that can’t stand them. I get that. It’s the timing that gets me here. Why are these facts and “here is my social media” coming out so early?
We’re not the relationship police, but we are our own detectives.
Have a Fuckwit Free Friday!
A fella who is heartbroken (supposedly) because his adult children have nothing to do with him. He admits that he had ‘fell’ into a relationship with a work colleague because his then wife (adult children’s mother) had told him that she no longer fancied him.. Mmm hmmm OK loser. 🚩🚩🚩NEXT!
A fella who love bombed me so hard it was cringe AF! 🚩🚩🚩 NEXT!
A fella who only talked about himself did not want to know anything about me 🤦🏻♀️. What’s the frigging point 🚩🚩🚩NEXT!
A fella who is uber friendly with his ex-wife even though she cheated on him (yeah right!) and couldn’t understand that I would not even speak with my FW. 🚩🚩🚩NEXT!
A fella who brags on the coffee date about how rich he is… I guess he thought that would impress, yeah fuck off mate I’ve got my own money ta very much 🚩🚩🚩NEXT!
A fella who expects something a little extra at the end of the date even though it’s been made so clear that it’s not gonna happen. 🚩🚩🚩NEXT!
A fella who is a friend (or so I thought and sadly there’s been a few of these) who think that because I’m single (after a 3 decades long marriage) I’m fair ‘game’ 🚩🚩🚩 NEXT!
Sadly I’ve found so far and this is only my experience, that men of my age or older hold some mysoginistic views which I cannot deal with. It can be one sentence and the flags 🚩🚩🚩fly high and it’s NEXT!
A fella who vomited his complete dating history on me and how terrible, psychotic and screwed up ALL his previous loves are 🚩🚩🚩NEXT!
A fella who constantly bangs on about how gorgeous, sexy and fit I am (eurgh super cringe) and how he can’t believe I’ve not been ‘snapped up yet! ….. wtf am I a bargain special 🚩🚩🚩NEXT!
I have my boundaries, I know them really well, I will not make excuses and always listen to my gut now. My picker is made of stella stuff thanks to this site. I spent far too many years fobbing off my own feelings, forever walking on eggshells and being made to doubt my worth. I’m a big deal, I AM mighty. If you ain’t bringing anything to my table you can fuck right off 😁
That said, I recently met someone who is interesting, sweet and attentive. It’s early days so we’ll see where it goes.
Thanks to everyone here and to any newbies it really does get better just belive in yourself, you’ve got this xxx ❤️
Bloody oath you can’t say you havent made an effort. My helpful 67 odd year old neighbour who sometimes over the years has said things I don’t want to know “my wife doesn’t touch me anymore” ( I said ewww please don’t tell me that, but he was known to say strange things to all and sundry ) recently sent a message saying “I’d rather see you in your sexy running shorts” in response to me sending him a photo of a man in a harry potter group dressed as voldemort in a fun run I went in. Obviously i was asking for it. Freak. The neighbourly friendship will now be coming to an end, but unfortunately he walks my dog religiously every morning so I have to exit gracefully whilst maintaining some sort of civility. I am never giving weird people the benefit of the doubt ever again. That is my promise to myself
I suggest you find another dog walker right away. It’s not worth the aggravation. Then you can tell this pervert exactly why you want nothing more to do with him.
Another one of those situations where I think I’ve been played like a fiddle over the past decade by a friendly harmless man just trying to help. Never asked him to walk my dog, he just started taking him out in the morning as we all pretty much live right on the beach. I live amongst a pretty eccentric group of neighbours who walk along the local beach, although I tend to keep to myself as they are all pretty opinionated about idiotic things like dog recall. He gets told off a lot by most of the local women and by virtue of the fact I couldn’t care less what any of them do he must have concluded I am in love with him. I can easily lock myself away and have no contact with him as my dog hangs in the front yard and there’s no need for us to ever speak. But jesus I’m half a century old now and it is so tedious having to deal with these idiots.
When someone “just starts taking your dog out” without asking, that right there is a red flag about a person who not only has no boundaries but announces himself as someone who tramples all over yours.
Very true but you live and learn and in my 50th year on this earth surely to goodness one more of these fruitcakes won’t slip through the cracks. They always do it slowly though, over months or years. Ive known him for a decade and he has only escalated to full blown sexual harassment the past few months. Honestly I barely talk to anyone anymore except at work where I am paid to do so. Otherwise when I am out in the community I wear headphones, a cap and a pair of large sunglasses like Leonardo Dicaprio.
My nearly 80 year old dad very helpfully said “well you’re just going to have to say something aren’t you”. I said dad how often have you ever been sexually harassed by someone who pretended to be your friend because I’ve had the exact same thing happen about 10 times. I pray to God I am old and ugly enough now this is the last time
I’m glad that you have a solid prospect. I haven’t see one yet.
It seems rare for men in our age group to want a true partnership. I’ve encountered quite a few who quiz me on my cooking and housekeeping abilities, so to be snarky, I ask the same. I asked one of those what he was bringing to the table since he expected a household manager. He said, “ME!” Oh, dear. He was also deep in debt and hoping to move in with me and walk away from his mortgage since he was underwater. Ah, no.
Holy moly. Unbelievable! What do you even say to someone like that? That’s so bad it sounds like maybe you dreamed it!
Yes, I have scads of stories like that. I’m far more discerning now and ask more questions upfront.
I love you Chump Lady, but some of us did have the crazy ex-wife. She had been treated by a psychiatrist for a few years and was on anti psychotic medicine. She heard voices, had compulsive behavior and self harmed. Unfortunately, she stopped her treatment and everything blew up. During our “wreckoncilliation” phase she walked out after half a dozen sessions. The therapist who knew about her diagnosis told me “She had problems I couldn’t fix.”
I agree that many men accuse their wife as crazy, when there is no truth to it or they have driven them beyond frustration. Our patriarchal society is quick to judge women as crazy when they don’t conform or comply. Witches was the equivalent in the 16th century.
But when I hear “bitch be crazy” as a red flag, it feels like blaming the victim without using any discernment.
I would suggest a yellow flag is a more appropriate. Proceed with caution and watch for hazardous conditions.
Fortunately, XW resumed treatment and was able to maintain her job. Still a FW, as she manipulates our adult children for her own benefit. It’s what they do.
Well, here’s my version. My picker was set to “alcoholic/substance abuser.” I don’t announce that XH was a substance abuser (except here) or that Jackass was a jackass who quit drinking because he had other narcissistic hobbies. But I pay very close attention to people’s use of alcohol or drugs. So many chumps leave because of the infidelity and in the course of telling their story here or in the reddit forum, mention almost as an aside that he or she was an alcoholic or addict or a substance abuser.
That should have been a dealbreaker, right there. You can’t have a healthy relationship with an active addict. It’s a progressive condition, for one thing. For another, lying is a hallmark of addiction. And cheating or outsourcing connection or romance is common because addicts seek out two things: 1) enablers (that’s us chumps who take care of them and do their adulting) and 2) other addicts, where they get their companionship and fun.
It’s a red flag on a first or second date, especially if you haven’t asked a man about his exes. When you get to know each other better it’s fine to talk about that, but keep it simple and omit the gory details.
Btw, a woman who leads with “my ex is an asshole” right away is just as suspicious as a bitch be crazy guy.
I think the red flag is the “real victim” often doesn’t run around telling people they have been victimised by a crazy ex, and they are trying to get away from the issue and heal and move on with their lives. I think a lot of us on here talk about our crazy narc ex, but have some objective facts to support what we are saying, and we are trying to heal and recover and get away from these people, who often are trying to re enter and disrupt our lives if they are not only disordered but coercive controllers.
Mine recently turned up with his whipper snipper and started brush cutting my garden as he is deluded and thinks he still lives at the house even though we separated nearly 4 years ago and don’t speak other than by text about our child. So yeah, he is a crazy mofo but those are facts
But I get what you are saying. There are nuances.
Yep, good points.
My now H and I met at age3 40 and 50. We didn’t get too personal on the first couple dates. But eventually we had to share our past and neither of us was going to lie about it. His wife left him because “she just didn’t want to be married anymore”. she had huge alcohol issues, to the point he many times had to go looking for her in the middle of the night. But, he loved her and he would have stayed married to her and kept trying to help her because that is just who he is.
My ex was a self indulgent cheater and had been for years (unknow to me re the cheating).
H and I were together for several years before getting married. I wouldn’t married anyone whose past I was not confident of, nor would my H. So we both had to be open about it. By the time youth passes, we all have baggage for sure.
I suppose the wheels could come off this at some point, but after 30 years; not likely.
I still think he is the kindest, most honest man I have ever known.
It’s not that crazy X wives don’t exist, it’s when and how the information is presented and in what context. A glib reference to a crazy substance abusing X as the catch-all reason, i.e. blame, for your divorce tossed out on a first date is most definitely a red flag, particularly when it’s also revealed that Miss Crazy-Pants has custody of the children, and most definitely when it’s revealed that said children no longer speak to you. Pretty much every one of my female friends who’s been dating a while has heard a variation of the same, and not long after the divorce I learned via my local network of 50+ single women that it’s my own and other identified FW X’s early dating catch-all excuse. Fortunately for us, it’s also widely accepted as a red flag–maybe not an immediate or singular deal-breaker, but definitely close.
I have no doubt you and other male chumps here with Xs who have genuine mental health issues find much more sensitive and nuanced ways of sharing that information with a potential partner and are able to separate it out from their more generally disordered FW character and behavior. The fact that you speak positively about your X resuming treatment, a sentiment that is often notably absent from red-flag statements about crazy X wives, speaks volumes about your own character.
I think the men who selfishly concoct this “Bitch be crazy” excuse hurt men who are actually in that circumstance as much as they are hurting women by maligning their reputation.
My now husband felt a lot of condemnation due to all the stuff runaway men do to their families. He wasn’t doing/hadn’t done anything awful but was treated as if it was assumed he was cheating, running off, abusive etc. He overcompensated by not dating for years (didnt want people to assume the relationship started when he was married) and paying way more than the law required for alimony/child support.
False narratives hurt everyone.
He only spoke well of his former wife when we started dating, so I was kind of unprepared when she was awful to me (for no good reason). I understand why he didnt “warn” me though.
The difference is, to me, you had a diagnosis and actual psychosis. You could talk about her doctors, her treatment plan.My first husband had untreated mental illness, so I’m sensitive too about the “crazy” ex. I had one. (He sued me pro se for years, while not paying child support. Good times.) But like I said, I wouldn’t lead with it, and if asked, I can say “this doctor, this med, this diagnosis.” I am always suspicious of the nebulous “crazy.” As in “unreasonable” as in you’d have to be crazy to leave me! Or the “one day she just went mad” narrative.
Or “she expected me to act like an adult..bitch be crazy…”
I led divorce recovery groups in two different churches over seven years. The XW is “crazy” is pretty common in that setting. It usually came out over the weeks that she just didn’t put up with his B.S. anymore. But to just assume this is unfair.
Like a lot of things, context is everything. So I would agree that early in dating the “crazy” label is concerning and may indicate a lack of self reflection.
Yes, yellow flag. My ex was also what our 20-something kids call a “dumpster fire” of unresolved, documented issues. The divorce would have been very colorful if it had gone to trial. I just wanted out with a decent settlement, and I got that. And because we were in religious patriarchal groups, I was called out as crazy because I was non-compliant. With some people who knew us both, I still carry that label.
I doubt that I’ll ever really pair up again, but that shouldn’t be something I have to carry around since I’ve been divorced quite awhile and haven’t heard from him in several years. I’ve also had a lot of therapy, coaching, and have been involved in a twelve step group for years, now in leadership there. I have some rough spots as we all do, but I hope most people consider me for who I am, not my mess.
I led DivorceCare groups for years. One in a very patriarchal church, the other one very much not patriarchal. The culture of the patriarchal church was definitely slanted towards the crazy wife bias. This usually presented as a lack of submission to husband or male pastors. I regret ever being there and this was a major reason we left. I am sorry you had this experience as well I wish I could apologize to some women who were in the group there.
I’m still going to the same patriarchal church where my ex preached, but that is going to change in 2025. I’ve already decided the when and the where. There’s a vulnerable widow that I look out for there, but once she moves away as planned, I’m gone. Even more so than when my ex left, they have structured it so that single women without a male relative are non-entities in the congregation, and I’m just so over it.
I hate that “male covering” thing. Who was the covering for the women that followed Jesus around and financed his ministry. These”Bros.”are so self-inflated. So glad to be away from that in a more progressive church. Bless you for aiding “a widow in her distress.” That is pure Christian theology.
Yes, the “bros.” As if men always know what is best for women. No, let’s discuss it. Please. We have far broader interests than children and casseroles. Early this year I asked about seeing the annual budget. Nope. It’s only for the “bros.” What about communications from the elders? Only for the “bros.” When they changed the locks after a major renovation, I asked if I could have a key because my family has had a key to that church for several decades. Only for the “bros.”
The church I picked out is very open and collaborative. They are deeply involved in the community and with each other. It will be good.
Sounds like my church. Women are on our board and frequently are the moderator. Female executive pastor. 42 12-Step groups meet their on a weekly basis. Home for citizenship clinics. LGPTQ Welcoming and affirming. Open and relational theology.
I read this as “ you can spare yourself a lot of future NURSERY”. My lack of love for gardening (not gardens though) is showing!
One man I met told me on the second date that his long-term marriage (with kids) ended because he “got himself in a situation” but that everyone is now better off and happier than ever. Given I was in the exact same situation as his ex wife, it was then clear that this would never work for me. I did not pursue finding out if he learned any lessons from it.
I have not yet begun to date, and at this time have no desire to do so, but I do have a desire to be a person of integrity and be around those who do. In the meantime, I ran into a video on YouTube which aligns with what I’ve been taught in counseling over the years, and why cheaters and side pieces are poor choices as intimate partners.
https://youtu.be/DCS6t6NUAGQ?si=qb6AjFRkWpMuisCA
Relationships are for those who have grown up, and you are not grown up until you can communicate well, be truthful, stop blaming others, make amends, and accept accountability.
My ex said that I had contributed “nothing” to his life in several decades of marriage and told his attorney the same. I know because it came up in negotiations. That wasn’t the case, and both attorneys ultimately agreed that I had to be a saint to have stayed so long. His attorney accurately figured out my ex’s mental health issues and that it was an adultery case. That was when the tide finally turned, and we got it settled.
But no, when it came to me and our children, my ex never really learned to live what my attorney called an “own up and show up” life of an adult. My adult kids have often said that if he had just been upfront that he was done with marriage and family and ensured that we were taken care of, they might have kept in contact with him at some level. But no. He never owned up to them at all and passively aggressively sent them large checks for a few years, trying to buy their love. Then he stopped, I’m sure, ranting about his “horrid, unappreciative kids.”
So my retired ex went off into the sunset, his boyish attitude still intact, still looking for his version of “love.”
I told a date that my husband had cheated on me. His knee-jerk response? “Who hasn’t?”
May all cheaters make it this easy for us!
“Who hasn’t?” Oh dear! 😅
IRL I’ve heard people give as excuses for cheating that their wives were crazy and/or frigid.
On what page of the cheater handbook is that?
p.s. I wouldn’t be surprised if my ex floated the same justifications. 😡 It pisses me off that the recipients of this BS probably nod and agree that the cheating made sense.
My nopes:
Any kind of sexism whether “benevolent” and patronizing or hostile. There’s a happy middle ground between suffocating daddy figure or he-man woman hater.
Gawks at women, can’t seem to control themselves though may use tricks to conceal or cover the behavior. Hard pass upon first compulsive head-crane.
Limerance addicts, love bombers and those who “fall gaga head over heels” too quickly. Makes me nervous as hell. Like the best marksmen have a healthy fear of guns, people with character have a healthy caution towards jumping into relationships.
Grew up with domestic violence or generally more dysfunctional family than I did.
Keeps touch with abusive extended family members unless extremely old and infirm and only to keep from stressing out other elders. Euphemizes serious past abusiveness of extended family members (“Oh s/he’s so nice/harmless now…”).
Euphemizes/minimizes interpersonal abusiveness of workmates or friends, doesn’t believe this is a global character trait but just a little idiosyncrasy.
Works for an evil corporation. Does anything destructive for a living– fossil fuel industry, military industrial, private prison industry, junk food companies, chemical industry, evil law firm, etc., or invests in same.
Neoliberals or free market fanatics. Bolshevik Marxists. Culty political extremes of any kind, right/left authoritarians.
History of following any kind of cult whether religious, new age or existential (i.e.,follows organized atheists, Richard Dawkins, etc.). Has radically changed religions more than once like switching back and forth between born again/Buddhism and atheism. Doesn’t apply to simply changing mainstream institutions within the same religion, like going from Protestant to Universalist.
Recently joined AA. Long term veteran members tend to stop spouting the cultier aspects of AA and boil it down to common sense wisdom.
Believes victims of domestic violence are “addicted” to abuse or “codependent”– any kind of victim-blaming.
Rape myth acceptance.
Bigotry. Racism, classism, homophobia. Even pseudopositive stereotyping.
Has a mother who’s a stabby internalized-misogynist. Hello covert incest and past parentification.
Has one or more “crazy” ex. It’s possible someone could have a relationship with an individual who became seriously mentally ill over time but this is never typically talked about right off the bat and, when it does come up, will be discussed in sober terms, never disparaging expressions like “crazy/nuts” though also never in detached, clinical “armchair expert” terms. It sounds unfair that women may be a little more “skein untangling” than men are about clinical aspects of abuse simply because violence against women is so prevalent that educating oneself may be about basic safety. In any case, this kind of experience will typically scare and sadden normal people.
Appearance or ethnic fetishes– like all exes are blond or always of a specific different race, etc.
Strong kink or sex fetishes. Anyone who rigidly requires certain props, settings or cosplay to get off. Rigidity freaks me out. Any kind of cruelty or sadism is flaming red flag territory.
Still has exes’ artifacts around, “complex” relationship with exes.
Mate poacher tendencies. Once knowingly poached a mate, dated someone already in a relationship/played side boi or hangs around a couple out of interest in one of the members.
Pines over exes or any kind of lingering unrequited pining beyond the normal processing period following an important breakup. I’m even icked out by celebrity crushes. Everyone might have a silly parasocial impulse once in a while but should keep that stuff to themselves to avoid setting off comparisons or a pickme dance.
Cries too much. Tricky one since men from some cultures may be more expressive but always tearing up over the sad parts in films, crying over lost puppies, etc.– red flag.
Porn tolerance. Isn’t strongly averse to trafficking, exploitation. On the other hand, overplaying the “ally” bit can be a red flag or expressing psycho hostility to ‘whores.”
Believes “sex work is work.” This is sometimes couched as groovy support for trans but it still implies prostitution can be “fulfilling and healthy.” The other extreme is– again– hatred for sex workers or “sluts.”
Ever cheated on a past relationship/monkey branched. Of course.
Men in his family are funny and charming but women in family are spooky silent lurkers. This family has some serious shit going on behind closed doors to cause that weird dichotomy.
Strongly believes sex addiction is a thing.
Sounds slightly “gay” at times while being solidly heterosexual. Super dangerous trait in straight men since sounding effeminate (especially when drinking or being intimate) is likely an accident of a type of dissociative age regression where they start channeling a compartmentalized “childlike” persona. Men trying to sound childlike simply end up sounding effeminite by default. The same red flag doesn’t apply to actually gay men since the vocal trait apparntly comes from something much different.
Gets into physical fights as an adult. Bristles too much or goes rogue in reaction to ego challenges. It’s different than protectiveness in response to genuine physical threat but normal people try to deescalate.
Men who are into polyamory. To each their own but not my cup of tea and I have different concepts of evolution. I just don’t believe monogamy is merely a social construct but probably hard wired in most.
Trance-like behavior or radical personality shift around the issue of sex. Has a “sex script” where they shift into cartoon sexy dude or “dominant” behavior. Barry White sex voice. Shudder.
Consistently gets freaked out by humor during sex or anything going comically wrong. Laughter is one of my favorite thing. Sex is also one of my favorite things. The combination is nirvana. Not all the time but I just like people who roll with it, are emotionally present and live in the moment.
Is not creeped out by women’s “sexy baby voice,” likes performers or public figures with this kind of voice (unless done comedically), has an ex or sister or mother who talks like this. Every woman should be able to do a Kristin Wiig “Shana” send-up as a litmus: normal dudes will either laugh their heads off and/or cringe and cover their ears.
Strong opinions/gets emotional about women’s makeup or appearance. Normal men are pretty clueless about this stuff. At most they might express a bit of discomfort around obvious exhibitionism or strangely unkempt appearance just like women might worry about the safety or character of dudes dressed like gigolos or hobos.
Rage driving or driving beyond the risk-tolerance of passengers and being defensive when asked to ease up.
Bothered by “cancel culture.” Gets defensive/hurt hearing that a favorite musician, icon or celebrity is an interpersonal abuser or racist. There’s only one right answer here: “Ugh I had no idea. I’ll never see them the same way again.” It’s largely an issue of maturity and growing out of parasocial idolatry.
Uses terms from the Redpill lexicon.
Follows sexist or abuse-apologist podcasters or talk show hosts.
Has no intellectual or artistic female icons who aren’t “hot.” Or, on the other extreme, has an older female mentor who’s possessive. No man hos, please.
Has possessive or overly enmeshed friends.
Has a “work wife,” even if she’s gay.
Has friends who cheat.
Ignores disrespect towards you from their friends or family members or randos. They don’t have to go postal if there’s any risk of violence breaking out or vulnerable children or elders around who can’t tolerate scenes. But there should be an immediate signal to you that they recognize someone overstepped and should bring it up later and set a boundary if the person is known to them. Repeat failure in this regard is a hard nope.
Gets either stiff and remote around your friends or too gaga flirty.
Spoilerism: getting grumpy or nasty before special occasions.
Knows too much about wines, whisky and mixology.
Shows up smelling of alcohol, any kind of day-drinking except that one regrettable time with the mimosas at friend’s wedding.
Regular pot smokers/vapers and psilocybin microdosers even if for medical reasons. No judgment in that case but it’s just a dispositional and coping-style mismatch for me in very close relationships, as are long term psychotropic users. I worked very hard to keep a child with neurological issues off any psychotropic remedies and went through traumatic experiences to resist this being foisted by school and medical personnel because of the risk of compounding cellular damage. I’ve learned that my attitude about it, experiences related to this issue and concerns about pharmaceutical industry politics tend to trigger and upset people who regularly use these remedies for mental health purposes. Live and let live as they say.
Looks way too happy and “transported” remembering all the partying “good times” in college or high school or, on the other hand, hasn’t worked out their alienation from that time.
Ever used hard drugs beyond that one regrettable time in college. Heroin or crack or anything involving going to the dark/underworld side to get access are hard nos.
History of age gap relationships.
Regularly travels for work if there are any other options.
Groomed brows and/or overly artful beard and/or excessive manscaping and toxic product use. I recoil from ostentatious narcissism and won’t do the female constant-Cosmo-laquered-hair-perfect-mani/pedi-CFM-pump-ostentatious counterpart to this. I personally like high end fashion but opt for less-is-more and nothing that involves pain, ick.
Slob or anal retentive excessive neatness, especially if rigid or defensive about any of it.
Overly “energetic/restless” men even if “good humored” and bouncy like, say, Tigger from Pooh or Mel Gibson in his heyday. Smacks of alexithymia and could be a red flag for explosive temper.
“Hates” Frida Kahlo too intensely. It’s usually because of the way she challenges sanitized, objectified views of women’s bodies and sexuality– all that breast milk and blood, etc. Obscure cheater red flag.
I’m sure there are more I’ve forgotten.
Well that sums up my experience on dating apps….
Another favorite of mine in your list: “‘Hates’ Frida Kahlo too intensely,” which is an “obscure cheater red flag.” Love!
True, that. I’m serious. Beware the Frida-haters (spooky musical cue). At the very least they’ve been teethed on porn.
“Bolshevik Marxists”: okay, HOAC, good to know! Am chuckling.
We democratic socialists get particularly embarrassed by twisted-circus-mirror reflections and extremist forms of our views. 🙁 Maybe it’s a form of political narcissism, like when someone shows up at a party wearing the same dress but accessorizes it with fingerless lace gloves and Kmart stilettos and it makes you want to go home and change lol.
Haha yes!
That’s a COMPREHENSIVE list.
I do know a few men that I greatly admire who don’t have any of those characteristics (as far as I know), but they are married to friends of mine, no surprise.
It’s really not that high a bar. Dorky laugh is not on the list nor flat feet.
I only went on one date – there were some obvious red flags:
1. He said he knew his marriage was over when his wife walked into the kitchen with a tshirt on with “feminist” written on it in big writing. I wanted to ask where she bought it but I was conditioned to “be nice”.
2. He was a cop and said most dv was “tit for tat”. I wanted to say “what you are referring to there is the myth of mutuality, the erroneous belief that both parties engage equally in harmful behaviours, and is often the basis for police misidentifying victims as offenders.” But I couldn’t be bothered.
3. My profile photo was near a river that he said he fly fished in. He said “they call that river ‘my river'”. Hahaha. What an idiot. He was so magically special he had his own river. God knows who ” they” were. The special voices in his head.
He messaged me after to say he didn’t feel the date had a romantic vibe (i.e. I didn’t seem to be gagging at the fact the cosmic energy of the universe converged inside his testicles).
Yikes I would have been eying all the exits. The fact you stayed quiet and studied the insanity makes you what a friend of mine calls a “misanthropologist.”
Hahah God you make me laugh. Id better screenshot this in case I ever reactivate my bumble account and need a snappy 5000 word summary of what I’m not looking for.
You forgot “interior door handles missing on passenger side of car”.
HAHAHAHAHAHA– me, snappy? I think I was teleported from some Medieval or Victorian era of 75 page holiday greetings.
I’d precede it by saying “not looking for anything serious but…” then your list of red flags
I have a pretty solid “yep” list but I’m way more cautious about broadcasting it. This is because I’m never that sure I won’t eventually be proven wrong about traits I find positive, mostly due to the fact abusosexuals are like sort of like viruses which mutate to trick and bypass human immune defenses. If someone is going to wear a mask, of course they’re going to try to impersonate someone fabulous, not just run of the mill blah. So better put, abusers are like lead and get into our cells by “bio-mimicking” something beneficial such as calcium. So I’m afraid of trying to sell some sure-fire positive trait only to lead some hapless person into a trap.
I think one problem is setting the picker to “fabulous.”
My Lord above, how could I have forgotten interior passenger door handle??? It’s so Bundy-ish (or is that Bundy-esque?). 😀
Ooh this is fun. I was only briefly on online dating (somewhat under duress from friends telling me how fun it would be). The first guy I spoke to (via message on bumble, but he asked to speak to me on fb messenger first red flag) was an excellent extractor of information- he would ask me something, I’d reply, and he would say “ooh that’s so interesting, tell me more” which could be mistaken for excellent people skills except i had a way to cross check his background to find out about ten years prior he had held his wife hostage for ten hours during which he subjected her at knife point to ten questions which he repeatedly made her answer, before threatening to abduct their child and take her to a country overseas where he spends time surfing.
So it was fortunate I checked as none of this was very obvious as he came across in our interactions as a:
Harmless middle class man
Spent time pottering around his property doing odd jobs
Working for a social enterprise
Who spent time overseas helping the less fortunate and “going for a swim”
Was very good at asking questions
Red flags
Had no digital footprint.
Almost immediately wanted to get on my social media rather than use the dating app “as it was too difficult to communicate” (which it sorta was)
Didnt seem to have contact with his child
Mentioned the country he went to intermittently “for a swim” which later occurred to me was also a place creepy men went to have sex with young trafficked women
Asked a bloody lot of questions about me which in hindsight was classic grooming- sorry but no man who doesn’t know you gives that much of a fuck what town you grew up in
I don’t know if he was a cheater but he was a coercive controller and a very dangerous man and only by virtue of my job was I able to work this out very early on
Yes, doing research is critical. I’ve taught several divorced friends how to use the open-access court systems. One county in my area doesn’t allow that, but most do. In that county, you can get things if you file the correct forms.
In the family court system, you can see how many times they changed their attorneys during the divorce and what motions were being filed. You can see when they were brought back for not paying child support or custody issues. If it went long, you can probably get a pretty good idea of why.
If you search the criminal systems, you can see the assault charges, DUIs, etc.
When a friend of mine was visiting last summer, I showed her how to do that on her ex, and we came up with all kinds of things just using the public systems.
Wow, that’s brilliant.
I wonder if CL could create links to these sorts of resources
In my area, I know that some of the domestic violence resources have links to such things. My county has a domestic violence resource officer, and she has some links on her web page.
I learned to search court records from an attorney in another state when I was part of another legal matter (not my divorce). My attorney there was really busy, so he recommended that I monitor my case that way. There, you can even get some of the actual documents.
My state doesn’t let you see the documents, just what kind of motion was filed by whom and what documents were signed off on by a judge. For criminal convictions, the charges and the sentence are shown. It also shows the attorneys of record and when there was an attorney change.
Some states don’t do that, though. I know of one neighboring state with ZERO online court records with public access. You can’t even check the court calendar there.
There used to be a random site called something like peterjohnson.com.au in Australia and it recorded all the court listings. We used to print them out and attach to dv applications to show a perp had a record of charges (it didn’t show convictions) as they were publicly available but it seems to have been taken down. There are certainly sites that publish registered sex offenders and facebook sites etc. Otherwise generally it is hard to get access to information on someone’s background. In some states of Australia you can apply for information about someone’s history if you are in a relationship to inform yourself about risk, but generally can’t just ask for information about some random you just met online who happens to have a history of DV.
Be careful out there people.
Eta although I was surprised when some of my dv clients who met their partner online hadn’t ever bothered to do a basic google name search of their boyfriend/partner and believed eveything they were told by their partner. Isn’t a digital check the first thing you would do when you met someone online. Lo and behold often the partner had a history of offending (in published articles) in other states, or some other nefarious activity that could have been googled.
Another hard working middle class socialist type guy I spoke to on bumble who seemed ok (I mean my standards had dropped through the floor after about 48 hours) I was able to find out the following
– he was on an African community page (he was white) and: “looking for some kenyan ladie’s (sic) for fun”
– he was selling a motorbike that was photographed on his property that was filled with piles of junk (for the kenyan ladie’s to clean up, probably)
– he had lost his licence drink driving about 3 times.
Seemed ok tho, hard working, liked a drink with the ladie’s….
I forgot to mention regarding the above fellow with the kenyan ladie’s even then someone who was encouraging me to try online dating said i shouldn’t be so quick to judge and should at least meet him for a drink – hahahhaa wtf
Another person told me I should lower my standards
Right there with you Weedfree…I just love it when people who are partnered assume that because you’re single ipso facto you must be:
*hard to please or
*too picky or
*something super wrong with you or (my personal fave!), simply
*desperate
That means in their mind I should be on some “any port in a storm” vibe.
Yes, lowering standards.
Since I have clearly not read the tealeaves in romance and “failed” thus far. Evidence: twice divorced from two cheaters. And so goes the limited thinking. Over it.
Just because I am currently unpartnered doesn’t mean I should take literally anything. PSA for all “singletons”: We have agency here!
I love the “lower your standards” thing. Hey, my dad and a lot of the men I grew up with were hardly perfect but met the basic bar. In fact they described and codified the basic bar. We’re not talking impossible unicorn perfection here.
No fellas look’ for kenyan ladie’s in my life (LOL), but I’ve certainly been told that I should lower my standards.
And in my mind, why should I even go one-on-one with someone that I know I’m going to walk away from? If they have garbage in their life, they want it there, but that doesn’t mean that I like it there.
I’ve learnt my lesson after 25 years with my FW. When we first met he said he wanted an open marriage. I told him I wasn’t up for the polyamory thing. Polyamory was a big deal in our extended friend group at the time and all I saw around me was heartbreak and trouble with that so I just wasn’t willing to try it.
After a few months of being together my young FW said that he was okay with monogamy because he loved me and felt so good being with me that it changed his mind. He proceeded to love bomb me over that time and I felt so good! We got married. He seemed unhappy right from the beginning – his moods were up and down and he spent a lot of time playing computer games. After 25 years together and then DDay, and then slowly peeling back the layers, I realise he’d just been having his own polyamory just like he wanted. He lived the classic double life secret sexual basement.
So I think he told me who he really was right in the beginning but I chose to believe he would be monogamous because he said he would be. But I should have listened harder to the first thing – he also was overly concerned with sex. He talked a big game but didn’t deliver much. Now he lives a life in a BDSM community that is very extreme and dark. I know it’s not my fault he was a lying asshole, but I wasn’t wise enough at 25 years old to really think about what he was saying and the potential consequences. Nowadays if someone said they were into certain things I’d believe them and walk away!
So at my job we hired a new manager who was all too willing to tell every woman between ages of 40-55 about how he had to move to get out of the small town (not small) where he had lived and worked because he had an acrimonious divorce and his adult children now wouldn’t talk to him, he CRIED to me his former wife was such a cold woman(!). 🚩
He was warned to stop “over sharing.”
Then came and told me he was ready to jump back into the dating pool on an app where he had a terrific first date with a professional lady who then ghosted him. 🚩 🚩
I said, “wow, there is only one reason I’d ghost a guy after a first date: If he expected sex.”
(Silence.)
Was warned by other male executives that he was making women uncomfortable.
Came and told me how easy it was to talk to me and how lucky my husband was. 🚩 🚩 🚩
He was let go by the end of the month.
So gross, glad he was let go, and this sounds EXACTLY like the ex asshat! He was “laid off” (lies I discovered later) by three different companies. Ugh!!
Ewwww.
You had me at sensory garden. That’s just the sort of pretentious drivel a FW would put on a dating profile or brag about on a first date, because it attracts a certain type of woman (one who values sensitivity) and FWs think that kind of woman makes an easy mark. Cringe! Run away from dates who seem to be working at looking like sensitive, spiritual souls, if for no other reason than that they are invariably douchebags.
Like people who promote themselves as “empathic” or “empaths.” Run.
I don’t date. I’m approaching 70, and it seems that most men in my age group are looking for a “serious committment” because they need a nurse and a purse. I’ve met men who want to get serious immediately, which is a red flag all by itself. I was approached (at work, mind you) by a guy who was in the hospital for heart failure and was quite up front that my being an RN was a big draw because I could take care of him. I was at work, assigned to take care of him and couldn’t walk away. Subsequent conversation said he was divorced because his wife was crazy, had grown kids he wasn’t in touch with because his ex-wife told them lies about him, had no money in the bank because the “crazy bitch” and her “pitbull lawyer” cheated him out of all of the marital assets, didn’t like to leave his home to do things and because the bitch got all of his stuff, all he had was a lone chair, a big screen TV “to watch the game” and a microwave. What a prize!
I went to church on Easter with a friend and while I was lost in one of those enormous fundamentalist Mega-churches looking for a bathroom, ran into a guy and asked directions. He immediately threw an arm around me and said he’d show me, and he walked me there with his hand “careless dangling” over my boob. Creepy! Later, I saw him again with his wife, and my friend introduced him to me as “a visiting pastor.” There is a reason I am not religious!
Yes, the nurse and a purse are biggies. I had one tell me that he needed a knee replacement, and it would be lovely if we could start dating so I could take care of him. And a bunch of them are looking for my purse because I live in a nicer neighborhood than most.
And then there are the ones who want a hug for various reasons. Pick one. No, I decide who to hug, and it isn’t you.
I often say to female friends “when does it end?” (the harassment, sexism, safety issues etc). Well here’s yet another example that it doesn’t.
Ugh, gross. I bet that loser didn’t give 3 seconds of thought to why you’d want him.
I think most of them think they’re quite a catch regardless.
It was ‘dating’ a cheater that led me to this site. Cheating had never been a problem I’d encountered personally. And my marriage ended because of abuse, not the abuse that is cheating. So my 40s self wandered into dating apps far too naive.
I had to get off dating apps for these (among other) reasons. They were either cheating and told me. (I’m so honest!) Or they said they were divorced but couldn’t back that up when pressed. (I was a divorce/family lawyer in another life.) It was far more sorting than I wanted to do because that was a good fifty percent of the men I encountered.
They all felt entitled to cheat. There was zero remorse.
A remarkably easy red flag to spot is the red flag of the Conspiracy Theorist=Narcissist flag. A diatribe about any conspiracy theory is a Universal red flag for Narcissism. It’s not mentioned very often, and it isn’t mentioned on the commonly published lists of traits and red flags for Narcissism, but it’s an easy red flag to identify when all the others can be hidden for years.
Take your pick, Covert, Malignant, Grandiose, Machiavellian, they all have cheating, entitlement and selfishness traits.
The hardest one for me to identify in the Covert Narcissist, they come across as the quintessential nice guy. My husband was one, but it wasn’t until he was dead that I realized the extent of his disorders, and realized he was a Covert Narcissist.
The connection to the Conspiracy Theorist and Narcissism is very easy to test, you’ll know within a 15 min conversation if they start going off on a conspiracy theory tangent. just ask a question and listen to them.
This!! Yes Lucky, ITA! I worked this out on quite a few friends too. See also another related red flag:
“Well I have done my research and you don’t know what is really going on”
Ok. Cool story bro
Anytime someone blames Covid on X or Y and this tangential list would have to include “But ivermectin…”
Hahahahahaha
Excellent red flagging Lucky 💥
I would have been suspicious at the beginning because of the RV trip. But there could be a reasonable explanation for that. Unlikely, though.