Infidelity Is a Consent Issue

infidelity consent

She’s wondering why we don’t look at infidelity as a consent issue. She’s ending a 25 year marriage with a cheater and is only now waking up to the deep costs of narcissistic abuse.

***

Hi Chump Lady,

Like every other member of your following I’d like to start off with THANK YOU! And now the sad part, I am very unoriginal in my circumstance. In my circles I am a unicorn and sadly, in some cases a leper, in case it’s catching I suppose. However, as I took a deeper dive online, I learned I am not unique.

I am ending a 25 year marriage, 32 year relationship, 3 kids.

I’ve spent more of my life with this Fuckwit than without him. Went straight from my narcissistic parent to him. Good times. I had no idea what narcissistic abuse was at the time, although now I know I actually had a front row seat in the arena. 

I thought I was crazy, he kept it that way for years. Two rounds of couples counseling, both initiated by my suspicions of infidelity on his part (categorically denied of course) both counselors believing my pathological liar and me left to feel that there was something really wrong with me. So, I sought my own therapy, I thought I had post-partum depression.

I went on meds, stayed in therapy, went off meds. I had two very ill parents I cared for off and on, in addition to the kids and renovating houses and moving, so, I was too busy to really look at what was reality. Reality was he slept with whomever he wanted, whenever he wanted, in the middle of playing a dedicated family guy. And, we were a very sexually active couple. I had to immediately get STD testing post D-day. I’d had sex with him 10 days prior. 

His iphone synced to the kids ipad and my 9 year old came upstairs to ask about the pictures. These weren’t even graphic pictures. They were pictures of 20 something girls in a bar with pathetic old frat guys hitting on them, buying them shots. Intentions read by a 9-year-old girl. I took said iPad and held on to it.

You would be so proud of my restraint!

That fucker came home from his stupid frat guy football trip and I said nothing! I let him go on his next work trip and watched and waited. FW was with a sex worker immediately after landing at JFK. He was supposed to have dinner with our collegiate freshman son that night but blew him off for the whore. What a great family guy right?

My immediate reaction to seeing the proof in front of me was relief, thank god I’m not insane. The worst part is that immediately after that relief, I have felt I wished it was me, I wish I’d been crazy. This is so hard. The hardest hard my family has had to endure. I hate him so much for being the dysfunctional piece of shit that he is. I know I will be a better person without him but now I have to endure divorce with a FW narcissist attorney (did I mention he’s a lawyer that lies for a fucking living?) and I am terrified of the process. Literally, I have two therapists right now and listen to empowerment podcasts daily to get me through.

If couples in a committed monogamous relationship — particularly a legally binding one such as marriage — act out in a way not agreed upon and without consent it should be punishable by law.

I was deceived without my consent, I would have left the relationship years earlier had I known. But that wouldn’t have served him, he needed someone caring for the kids, running the house and the renovation projects he initiated in the midst of his fucking anything he desired on the side. In any other legal contract that is fraud and punishable by law. I gave up my business to raise our kids and care for my parents and was completely taken advantage of. It’s interesting that the same human that was all in favor of going after a predatory caregiver for my father treated his wife in much the same manner. He blew off the deceit as “every marriage has problems.” Yes. Every marriage with a narcissist has problems. The problem is the narcissist.

So, I am trudging through, it’s taken me 5 months to pay an attorney retainer.

I’m terrified and it sucks.

I’m writing this because I never EVER would have seen myself as a victim of domestic abuse, and yet I find myself writing this understanding that my paralyzed fear and stuckness are maybe not to be viewed as victim but as a hard and unrelenting pull toward a better life. 1000 steps to get there but worth it!!!

Nothing New

***

Dear Nothing New,

Keep trudging. It’s so worth it to be free. I’ve also divorced a cheating lawyer and they can weaponize the legal system to drag things out, but don’t despair. No one can force you to stay married. (At least not at the moment.) If you’re looking for an uplifting podcast on this topic, listen to the interview I had with my Aunt Joy (of singing walls fame). She divorced a cheating lawyer in the 1970s back when women couldn’t get their own credit. (She had to get her male boss to co-sign a loan for her to afford legal representation.)

These freaks are bullies. Do not be cowed.

Remember, this is just a window in time. The suck is finite. The worst thing you can do is stay paralyzed. It sounds like you’ve assembled a team to help you push through the divorce. Lean on them. The hardest struggle to break free from a FW is mental. You’ve got 30+ years of normalizing his entitlement, of believing he’ll always get his way because he’s always gotten his way.

But that was because he had the advantage of deceit. The power imbalance was in his favor. Not only do you KNOW, you’re in full out rebellion, divorcing his ass. He will try to regain his power with rage, charm or self-pity, but he can never again keep you in the dark about who he truly is. Or who you are.

It suited him when you believed you were crazy.

Two rounds of couples counseling, both initiated by my suspicions of infidelity on his part (categorically denied of course) both counselors believing my pathological liar and me left to feel that there was something really wrong with me.

It’s not you, it’s the system. Not only is your husband a practiced liar, but our culture often discredits women’s lived experience. Consider the whole misogynistic trope of the Irrationally Suspicious Wife.

So, I sought my own therapy, I thought I had post-partum depression.

That’s another diagnosis you should reconsider. I’d be depressed too if I had your husband. There’s research that critiques postpartum depression diagnoses because researchers don’t look at the context of women’s lives. Are you depressed because of your hormones or are you depressed because you’re coming home to a partner who has abandoned you to all the childcare? If you want to go down that rabbit hole, here’s a link to an academic paper and another to the blogger Zawn debunking the Estrogen Made You Bonkers argument.

You weren’t crazy. Your husband had a double life.

Reality was he slept with whomever he wanted, whenever he wanted, in the middle of playing a dedicated family guy.

And that’s how we have to frame infidelity — as a double life issue. You can’t consent to what you don’t know about. Take the sex out of it and focus instead on the fraud.

Because people always want to focus on the sex. Of course he’s attracted to younger hookers! Perhaps you’re frigid. Perhaps he evolved to be promiscuous. Sex, sex, sex.

No — he deceived you in order to USE YOU.

You did not consent to be used. You did not consent to devote 30 years of your life to a man who wasn’t devoted to you. He enjoyed all the benefits of your monogamy and investment in him. He did not reciprocate. Those benefits were ill gotten, because you were swindled.

He blew off the deceit as “every marriage has problems.” Yes. Every marriage with a narcissist has problems. The problem is the narcissist.

The problem is the entitlement. People have begun to glaze when we call people narcissists. There’s a minor industry in narcissistic abuse TikTok videos and life coaches. That’s why here at Chump Nation we just call them fuckwits. We aren’t mental health professionals. We’re living with a FW’s unbridled entitlement. There’s a lot of that shit going around, because we live in an age that glorifies I Got Mine and fuck you. That doesn’t seem to mind a bit of criminality. And which celebrates Exuberant Acts of Defiance.

That’s why I always ask chumps: Is this relationship acceptable to you? Do you CONSENT to be in service of a FW’s ego?

Well, no, Tracy. Not when you put it that way.

Right? Because most people don’t want to be subservient to the Great I Am. Which is why FWs have to manipulate to maintain their power.

You fomented revolution. Viva, Nothing New. Off with his head. Godspeed on the divorce.

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FYI_
FYI_
6 months ago

That fucker came home from his stupid frat guy football trip and I said nothing! I let him go on his next work trip and watched and waited.

I LOVE this! Brava to you. Very mighty. I hope your lawyer is the sharkiest shark out there.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  FYI_

Thank you! It was really hard to say nothing but it was SO worth it.

Archer
Archer
6 months ago
Reply to  FYI_

This is a common recommendation but I just want to throw it out there that so called sharks may be litigators who will want a very expensive trial. Mine did and then promptly did shoddy work because I went with mediation instead.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Archer

I spoke to several attorneys and decided on the one that made me feel the most calm. He will advise during mediation (although I cannot do that with my soon to be ex) or do litigation light where it’s kept out of court and the settlement agreement goes back and forth between representation. Neither of us wants to go to court. I also spoke with a shark and have that option in my back pocket should I need to pivot. Praying that does not happen.

Leedy
Leedy
6 months ago
Reply to  Archer

Good point. I had an excellent lawyer–smart, experienced, and very tough–but my ex and I also used a mediator in order, ideally, to avoid going to trial. And indeed, as you say, my lawyer kept pushing me to go for a bigger and bigger settlement, while in the meantime my ex’s lawyer was pushing him endlessly to go for a more advantageous settlement on his own side. The mediator helped us both to see, way more clearly, what the average judge would be likely to decide in our case, and so (not without a lot of acrimony) we were able to meet in the middle and avoid an expensive and soul-wearying trial.

ClearWaters
ClearWaters
6 months ago

New, you are me, almost word by word of your post. We are dull and gullible for the sake of our beloved families. But you are doing the right, sane thing and you will survive! These days I am just too busy to remind myself that I really was dull enough to believe my cheater. He is the mists of the past.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  ClearWaters

Thank you! I cannot wait to be on the other side of this.

Elsie_
Elsie_
6 months ago

This was part of my refusal to reconcile. We separated twice, and I told him the second time that he couldn’t live with us until he handled his issues. Part of that was the porn which led to wanting an open marriage and more. I said no to the open marriage, and he strayed anyway. But he also had significant mental health issues which included a suicide attempt during our first separation. He was a very messed-up individual.

Indeed, he had changed the terms of the marriage, and I was not on board. My attorney pointed that out during the intake appointment. That helped me process it further. I live in a state that still has for-cause reasons for divorce, and multiple boxes were checked that way.

Ultimately, we settled no-fault, which was fine with me. I truly did not want to sit through a trial that outlined everything I didn’t consent to. Just give me what I deserve and leave me alone. It took awhile, but ultimately I got that.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Elsie_

My jerk threatened suicide in the beginning. I was so trauma bonded to him that I asked him to send me a thumbs up emjoi every morning so I knew he was ok. He was out of the country on a work trip. He alluded to it again in our discernment counselor’s office and the therapist called him on it. Told him he was legally obligated to report it and take action. It was terrifying to watch the facial expression change, the crying stop and body language get defensive as my husband told him that would not be necessary.

Elsie_
Elsie_
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

That was my world at times during my marriage, separation, and divorce/closeout. I never quite knew how to read the threats. When he did have an unsuccessful attempt, he did it without telling anyone where he was, so there was truly nothing I could have done. Suicide threats would reappear at times, sometimes more like a hint, “I don’t have much longer.”

But we haven’t heard from him in several years, and I’m still getting full automatic payments. Those will drop some when they revert to survivors. So, I assume he’s alive?

falconchump
falconchump
6 months ago

Yes! Talk to your lawyer about causes of action you can bring for fraud and deception. I wrote this article, it’s a few years old, but it will give you some ideas. There is a trend in this country to recognize exactly what you and Chump lady are talking about!

https://lindafalcao.medium.com/your-husband-had-an-affair-have-you-been-raped-1417759d1589?sk=39d62221805a15dbede2121261c44b64

By the way, I have another article on Medium on the same topic colorfully entitled “your waiter takes a lobster, swishes it around in the toilet, puts it on a platter and serves it to you“. Same theme: that’s not what you signed up for. Infidelity is the same. Please get tested, and talk to your lawyer!

Last edited 6 months ago by Tracy Schorn
Stepbystep
Stepbystep
6 months ago

The fuel I needed to move forward was my anger that FX and OW knew more about my future than I did. Once that kicked in, I knew my every action would be based on my independence and dignity. In my case, I wasn’t frightened by a vindictive FW but by a society which said it is better to be coupled. Avoid contact with FW, be honest with your children and pursue self-care and a support team. Do that again tomorrow.

susie lee
susie lee
6 months ago
Reply to  Stepbystep

Such a good point. It is that realization that two fly covered turds were actually planning my future for me. How surprised he was that I didn’t go along with their plan.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Stepbystep

Yes, self care I have prioritized. Like putting on my oxygen mask first. And anger can indeed be a good motivator.

falconchump
falconchump
6 months ago

Please talk to her lawyer about the possibility of bringing a cause of action based on fraud, reckless, endangerment, etc. (I am a lawyer, but this is not legal advice!) Some US courts are moving towards routinizing this issue, I cite the cases in this article from a few years ago. You can move the conversation forward in the courts!

https://lindafalcao.medium.com/your-husband-had-an-affair-have-you-been-raped-1417759d1589?sk=39d62221805a15dbede2121261c44b64

new here old chump
new here old chump
6 months ago
Reply to  falconchump

THIS IS GREAT

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
6 months ago

From a legal point of view, you could say that in addition to it being about consent, it’s also a case of fraud, if you invested thousands of hours of labor in supporting him and he benefited from your labor as part of your contract of marriage, and then made off with the profits and stiffed you.

Looking at it through his lens, in which money seems to be all that matters, he ripped me off.

(I also was married to a lawyer/journalist. And no-one, including a parade of therapists and my childhood friends, believed me, either. I’m sorry, it’s right up there in the top candidates for “worst”.)

Last edited 6 months ago by Chumpty Dumpty
NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

My therapist suggested I go back to the couples counselor and tell her she got it wrong. If for no other reason than it would feel good to me to do so. But honestly, I believed him then as well. I thought I was paranoid and making something out of nothing. It’s so disgusting to me that he let me feel that way. That we discussed our love languages while he was in the middle of fucking other people. AND fucking me. Yuck. His love language is apparently SECRETS.

damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster
damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster
6 months ago

dear writer,

first, i’m sorry. you’ve been used by a narc and it sucks. fuck that guy.

you’re at the beginning of it. i think you’re doing okay–you’ve got the lawyer, and 2 therapists, and you’ve been to the doc for STI testing.

did you have a full physical with your GP? i think it’s a good idea–the stress of your life changing so abruptly can really do a number on your body. and may i suggest you see your GP more often than usual? just to keep track of your blood pressure?

i’m not going to say anything about the legal stuff because you have lawyer, but please have lawyer do a complete forensic audit so you can follow your X’s spending on fuck buddies/sex workers/friends with benefits/co-workers and others.

as for you, you’re bound to feel stuck at times. so get out there and walk. that’s what i did. walked and walked and walked. i also took up daily yoga with an on-line teacher and that really helped me sleep a bit better. find your friends, your true friends, and spend time with them, ideally walking.

good food, exercise, therapy, and time. stay away from alcohol and extracurricular drugs. drink lots of water. you’re going to be okay, but it’s going to take the time it takes.

this is not to say you can’t be angry. do what you need to express your anger. i love burning things, and i have been known to write coded messages on the underside of furniture i was forced to turn over to the FW in my life. because, fuck that guy.

in solidarity,
#damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago

Yes! I run every day and go on at least 3 walks with friends a week. I’ve been using the days he has custody to do that. It is helpful. And I love messages on furniture! That made me lol! I shredded a few photos and donated all weird clothing he ever gave me to the Good Will.

Searchingforclarity
Searchingforclarity
6 months ago

“did you have a full physical with your GP? i think it’s a good idea–the stress of your life changing so abruptly can really do a number on your body.”

I think that’s why my cancer came back. 4 years of pick me and unremitting stress until she finally gave up and left the state. (Before DDay I had great mammograms). Then another AP. I didn’t know about the cancer yet. I got my plan in place. Then I was getting bone crushing headaches, and was diagnosed. Every chump who is living with this kind of stress should be checked thoroughly and often.

2xchump
2xchump
6 months ago

All this excellent advice and to this day 2.5 years since D day, I still do most of these things. I almost had a stroke with this last divorce and I preferred the fetal position to a walk. As soon as I got I grip and stopped crying for a minute, I got a bp machine and recorded it. Turns out I was taking a supplement zinc picolinate that reacted with my system and sent my pressure sky high. Stay close to your gyn MD, get additional testing a year out Stay close to your gp and get emergency meds for sleep and anxiety.blood pressure etc The point is to stay alive and survive this period of time until you break free. That is when you get a life. One day at a time, one foot in front of the other. Be very careful with therapists, mine took my husband’s lines and had me pick- me dancing for more years. She agreed men needed more sex and I was lagging. It was a double barrel shot gun. Today I am happy and free..OW has to sleep with guns everywhere and an unstable man. But I now thank her for taking him off my hands. No returns

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  2xchump

Our bodies definitely pay the piper for stress. I have had my physical and mammogram. And I ended up at the dr b/c I had a horrible burning sensation in my mouth. Turns out it can be stress induced, it’s a thing called Burning Mouth. The most ridiculous name I know, but very accurate. I’m on a topical steroid to treat it. I guess I should feel very lucky I didn’t end up with ‘burning crotch’ instead all things considered.

2xchump
2xchump
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

Nothing new! I had an STI x2 years. On and off antibiotics,creams, TX, rx.. I was to blame says cheater….6 months after I was moved out the infections were completely gone. My Gyn said if BOTH of us weren’t treated we would pass the infections back and forth forever. Plus after I left, I followed up for the next year to be sure. What you don’t know could kill ya! I wish my GYN had raised a red flag sooner, but I guess they stay out of it? Just treat one partner? Keep taking care of yourself. Who else will?

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
6 months ago
Reply to  2xchump

I too had an STI that lasted years. In the end, it destroyed my fertility. he went on to have too children with the next wife.

The GYN who treated the STI didn’t tell me that both of us needed to be treated or that it was a sexually transmitted infection rather than one of those infections (like yeast) that can “just pop up.” I was in my 20s; I thought we were monogamous. I was; he wasn’t.

2xchump
2xchump
6 months ago

Oh my goodness!!! My#1 cheater had 2 of us during my pregnancy..me and OW..anything could have happened. My heart breaks for those of us chumps who lost out on having a family due to cheating. I can’t wrap my mind around such a horror. I hope your life free of these people gives you some peace. I can’t even imagine the stories CL has heard through the years. This must be one of the saddest.

new here old chump
new here old chump
6 months ago

YES to all this.

Nancy
Nancy
6 months ago

“The advantage of deceit” is something they put a lot of energy into. Once the truth is revealed you will realize your strength.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Nancy

I sure hope so!

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
6 months ago
Reply to  Nancy

So true!

Should Know Better
Should Know Better
6 months ago

I feel this keenly. After you go through divorce you learn very clearly that marriage is nothing more than a financial agreement as far as the law is concerned. But a legal contract that either party can elect to unilaterally terminate without penalty (divorce) or engage in fraudulently (infidelity, deceit). In some states theft of marital funds is considered, but only in balancing assets in a divorce; there is never a penalty and therefore absolutely no reason not to do so if you happen not to have a conscience. For us chumps who were the primary earners, we get the extra insult of being forced to financially support this person for years following the divorce *because* they had been taking from us the whole marriage.

But maybe it’s better this way. Let’s be honest, would legal or financial penalties deter these FWs who think that everyone else is far too stupid to catch them? And do we really want to have to investigate to find legal proof of their wrongdoing? Better to realize that the situation is not acceptable to you and bounce.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
6 months ago

I am going through a divorce now and yes, absolutely, marriage is nothing more than a financial contract in family court. And this is so, so wrong and a travesty of justice. In getting married you are, under the law, signing a contract in which someone can abuse you, steal from you, expose you and your children to deadly diseases and wreak havoc on every aspect of your existence, without any penalty for that abuse.

My lawyer told me about a woman whose husband used to sit on her and put his cigarettes out on the bottom of her feet: marital property split 50/50 nonetheless. This women feels her husbands abuse with every step her poor scarred feet take, and will for the rest of her life.

I’m trying to talk my lawyer into arguing intentional infliction of emotional distress, but not making any headway there.

The family courts are overwhelmed with the sheer number of divorce cases, but that is no reason that justice should be denied to abused partners. If we want to make it easier on the judicial system, then fine: set up a property division guideline that if abuse is present, there is an automatic 60/40 split of assets in favor of the abused spouse. And yes, infidelity is abuse. It is also rape by deception, fraud, reckless endangerment, intentional infliction of emotional distress and a slew of other offenses that would be criminal in any other contract. Whey do we, as a society, say that harming strangers is a criminal offense, but harming family is OK?

I don’t know if it would deter the disordered, but it would drastically help the abused spouse to have abuse recognized and penalized. It would move the needle an inch closer to justice.

2xchump
2xchump
6 months ago

…there is more deceit than using your body, your savings, your time…it’s the theft of your reality and the lie that you were loved. I let go of my house, declined alimony as it would take more legal fighting to get it, plus adding on the years of connection to him. I was grateful to get out with just my retirement as my legal bills were mounting. Sometimes, for mental health you do cut all ties as I did. Other times it is best to fight with all you have.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago

Thankfully there is a ton of discussion around consent in sex education programs these days. Perhaps the mention of infidelity being an act performed with only one person’s consent could be part of the education. As it stands it’s a topic not often addressed with young people, unless it directly impacts their family the topic isn’t given much consideration. But you may be right about the FWs not really caring about legal penalties. Afterall, they think societal laws don’t apply to them.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago

“Let’s be honest, would legal or financial penalties deter these FWs who think that everyone else is far too stupid to catch them? And do we really want to have to investigate to find legal proof of their wrongdoing?”

I think it depends on whether one accepts the world as it is or seeks to change it.

From forensic evidence that cheaters share a lot of traits and tactics with other serial criminal offenders, particularly domestic abusers (whether the bone-breaking violent type or subviolent coercive controllers), I think there’s strong evidence that legal disincentives can make an impact in a statistical sense.

Basically what distinguishes the criminally disordered from people with actual “mental illness” is that the former tend to be very pragmatic and self-interested while the latter will do whatever they do without regard for personal consequences because they’re crazy. In other words, emotional/psychological abusers, like other types of serial criminals, tend to adapt their abuse tactics to evade consequences like viruses mutating to evade human immune defenses. Consequently, it can be like playing legal whack-a-mole to define abuse and enforce against it but it’s still do-able if difficult.

For example, rates of violent domestic assault took a measurable statistical dip in the 80s and 90s as criminal enforcement against domestic assault increased. This is demonstrably true in every country that enforces against it in contrast to countries that do not criminalize or enforce where rates are soaringly high. But to the degree that criminals always “mutate” their tactics, many of yesterday’s bone-breaking batterers are now today’s severe “coercive controllers” which has its own steep societal costs and fallout including high rates of trauma, illness and suicide among victims and trauma to children and the generational assembly line that produces future offenders.

So now there’s a legislative movement to criminalize coercive control (the next mole-whack). It’s starting to make somewhat of an impact, at least in regards to shifts in public attitudes towards perpetrators and victims because once something is criminalized, it’s harder to society at large to minimize it and blame victims (which, people being people, they’ll always do if something is not defined as “wrong”). But actually decreasing rates of this form of abuse depends on enforcement which depends on a lot of variables– mostly the willingness of the justice system to catch up to current social science and take seriously the collective health effects and costs, not to mention the consistent finding that coercive control is far more predictive of eventual domestic murder than even histories of violent assault.

The whole thing is a work in progress.

As far as whether it’s worth digging up evidence and proving a case of wrongdoing, obviously it depends on regional laws and policies. It can also depend on the individual situation and the stakes which can vary from basic injustice to life-saving financial compensation and protective orders. For instance, even no fault states may order restitution for family assets that are dissipated for affairs. There’s even a case in CA in which the schmoopie was ordered to return the value of gifts and amenities to the chump. So in the world as it is, it may be worth doing.

As far as the “world as it should be,” I’d like to see laws and policies change simply because something is unjust. For instance, I think there should be penalties and disincentives protecting people in your situation– even if financially solvent– from having to financially support a former partner who siphoned funds, physically endangered and emotionally abused them. But even if (in a better world) policy were on their side, someone who’s solvent might prefer to cut losses whereas victims in the reverse situation– those who gave up careers to care for children and who were frog-boiled through systematic abuse into dependency (which many abusers actively seek to do), laws protecting victims from emotional abuse, post-separation abuse, rape by deception, weaponization of the courts and child custody and dissipation of family assets for affairs could be life changing or life-saving, in which case gathering evidence would be important.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago

Sometimes whack a mole is necessary to start the conversation, great metaphor. I appreciate all the input, thank you!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

You sound awesome and I think you could definitely contribute to “the conversation” as you have with this post. And I suspect getting involved in Sisyphean battles (the whack-a-mole exercise) to change the world might put you in contact with your awesome ride-or-die brethren.

Personally I think the best “treatment” for socially-borne trauma is a social remedy– engaging with a better class (than abusers) of human beings that provide hope that intelligent life really exists on earth. So I hope you keep coming back to this group. I think you have a lot to offer.

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
6 months ago

“You did not consent to be used. You did not consent to devote 30 years of your life to a man who wasn’t devoted to you. He enjoyed all the benefits of your monogamy and investment in him. He did not reciprocate. Those benefits were ill gotten, because you were swindled.”

This!!! I feel the pain and outrage, Nothing New, and Tracy got right to the heart of it.

It’s taken me over 3 years to process and heal from being swindled like that – also for just over 31 years – but as people here say, it DOES get better.

Knowledge is power, and I hope you take your new-found power and get a fantastic settlement with a life (at least mostly, since you have children) FREE from such a user/manipulator.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  OutButNotDown

Yes! She always get right to the heart of it. And thank you to you and everyone else on here for reminding me it will get better. I’m in the thick of it now and hearing from those on the other side gives me great hope.

Elsie_
Elsie_
6 months ago
Reply to  OutButNotDown

My ex was retired when we divorced.

Yes, I had a huge investment there, but it was burned to the ground by the time the attorneys got involved. There was nothing left to salvage. When he at long last let go four years after he had high-tailed it away, I had to say, FINALLY!

Spinach@35
Spinach@35
6 months ago

“You can’t consent to what you don’t know about.” So true!!
Whenever someone glorifies infidelity as a way to strengthen a marriage or argues that monogamy isn’t natural and so advises people that there’s no harm in screwing around, I bring up the consent issue.

Chumps are kept in the dark and therefore cannot consent to being exposed to STIs or being deceived about their own reality. They are robbed of agency and end up making decisions without accurate information.

No one would buy a car with rodents gnawing at the wiring, water in the gas tank, and a broken axle. Nor would any of us plan a long-distance trip in such a car, but that’s what FWs would have us do. They alone are the possessors of knowledge. And they happily let us drive around in that dangerous vehicle that we would never even enter if we were aware of the problems.

They lie and cheat for their own benefit and tinker under the hood without letting us in on the dangers. When someone finally pops open that hood, we are shocked and shaken. We cannot believe that we were so exposed and vulnerable, that someone we trusted willingly put us in harm’s way.

This is something I still struggle with.

Leedy
Leedy
6 months ago
Reply to  Spinach@35

“And they happily let us drive around in that dangerous vehicle that we would never even enter if we were aware of the problems.” I too still struggle with the knowledge that (alas) both of my ex-husbands, each of whom in turn I thought of as my best friend, endangered me in this way. When I reflect on it, I am aghast.

sparklynewme
sparklynewme
6 months ago
Reply to  Spinach@35

Great metaphor.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  sparklynewme

Yes! Great metaphor. And it is terrifying isn’t it? But Chumps don’t view the world the way FW do so we cannot even imagine it. That’s why they get away with it, because we think ‘Who would do that?!’ so we don’t look closely enough. Because it’s insane to think your best friend would let you ride around in that vehicle.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
6 months ago

As Tracy wrote, chumps are swindled, and as you pointed out, In any other legal contract that is fraud and punishable by law.

The injustice is infuriating, and the reality is unfair. Nothing New, life eventually will be new again when you are free of this abusive spouse’s exploitation.

Meanwhile, use your attorney and therapist wisely, come here where you can vent at no charge, and consider getting a therapist for your daughter. Did she see other messages and photos on her i-pad that she hasn’t mentioned?

Also, seek a tech expert to find out if it is possible to search for deleted texts. Exposing a child to sexually inappropriate materials in legally considered abuse, at least in some states. And it may also provide additional evidence.

Stay strong.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

She knew there was something not right about what she saw, but there was no nudity. The language an adult would be able to understand was referencing sexual things, but again no sexual buzzwords. Things like ‘Finish Strong!’ But she wouldn’t understand it. My FW wanted to talk to her about it and I said ‘Don’t you dare! She does not need to carry the burden of what she showed me on that ipad leading to the end of her parent’s marriage.’ This was NOT her fault and she actually did me a huge favor, but she wouldn’t see it that way. I took the ipad and looked through all texts (of course I did) and then kept it from her. Screen time is a common topic between us so she didn’t think anything of it. And yes, I did get her a therapist. 🙁

Tornup
Tornup
6 months ago

4 years out from a brutal discard after over 30 years together. What I can say is that when they leave they are relieved. We are distraught, but as time goes by and your fog clears that will changes this is a death. The death of a person, a life and a future. We play the pick me dance, because we don’t want them to die. With all deaths we see only the good. Once you go NC you can start to wake up through the fog. You start to see only the bad. It’s hard to find the good. It’s a second death. It’s acceptance. I never thought I would not love my XH, but I do not. I loved who I thiught he was and maybe he was, but who walks the earth now is not that person.

I am in my early 60’s his new wife ( married on our 30th wedding month a few months after our quick divorce) is 12 years younger. She is not attractive, she is materialistic, she doesn’t cook or clean, she is high maintenance and she flaunts their new life with my XH and her adult kids. He hasn’t see his own kids in 3 gears or grandson. Has a new granddaughter he was not told about ( although I am sure he knows) she enables it all, because it benefits her and her kids.
That’s who he is with! Thats what he gave up his own kids and grandchildren for!!

They truly are not worthy of our tears. They are worthy of our pity. You’re better than him. Period. You are not compatible with who he has become. I have peace. I will never remarry. If I meet someone I will not live with them. I feel so good about the person I am again. What you should be most proud of which I am, is that you filled your vows. You loved. You invested. You were loyal. He did not appreciate you. He will see that someday. More for his own self pity.

Just remember cheat on a good woman and karma makes sure you end up with the bitch you deserve.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Tornup

That last line! God I hope that happens!!!

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

If it would serve you to live vicariously through karma doing exactly that to a cheater, look into Doug Weiss’ marriage to Joni Lamb on YouTube, and the whole Daystar scandal. Weiss built a whole marriage therapy empire on the backs of suffering spouses and children, using himself as an example of triumphing over sex addiction and giving hs wife his best self. But then he dumped her after 30+ years of marriage for an even bigger narcissist than himself. Now he appears on TV drunk, slurring his words, 30 pounds heavier and stuffed into pastel suits like an Easter sausage, while his AP wife glares daggers at him. I suspect that the same shitshow happens to many FWs, but outside of public view. My STBX spent a lot of money on Weiss’ programs…they were as much good to us as they apparently were to Weiss. It turns out paid for schadenfreude is even tastier than the free kind.

Tornup
Tornup
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

Mine certainly has! Haha

FYI_
FYI_
6 months ago
Reply to  Tornup

It is so, so, SO strange to me — the ones who completely drop their children. Imagine not talking to your kids for three years!

Tornup
Tornup
6 months ago
Reply to  FYI_

It’s unbelievable!! He got fired a year after our divorce after over 30 years with a very big company that he was very high up in. They saw he was crumbling. I had to recently speak to his old asst. manager and she is a high class lady. She said, it’s hard for me to understand this all. She said, I respected him so much. I held him to a very high standard. I said, can you imagine how I feel.?

I will also add. We lost our 14 year old daughter to leukemia. We lost a child and he just threw the other 2 children of 30 years away and started over.
It’s insanity

2xchump
2xchump
6 months ago

Dear NNew, It is an absolute wonder that any Chump breaks free from the intensive mind altering lies that these creatures assail us with. You come to believe it is 90% YOU and it feels 🤪 crazy because it Both my cheaters had me looking at how I TRIGGERED them not what my body was telling me… that something was so wrong. The lies become truth and i just had to find a cure for me so they would be kind again. I became a contortionist to please them. My heart goes out to you and all of us who feel the bear trap close around us.. Detoxing from the illusion of love hurts deep..the death of a thousand cuts. With No contact you can recover, without it, you are trained to respond to their needs automatically. Your brain seeks safety and bonding..their brain seeks power over you. It’s a huge job but power through it. If I did it with an infant and 6 year old and then again at 70, I know you can too. Keep getting all the help you can. We have divorced all kinds of men,both of mine were armed..you can do this and come out healthier and full of courage, one day at a time. We are with you

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago

On the issue of consent and justice, I think chumps should take a page from ACT UP– the AIDS activist group that relentlessly kicked ass in the late 80s and 90s– and join existing legislative movements to change laws and policies.

Even if there are very sound arguments why outlawing adultery is completely unlegislatable, there are many other piecemeal issues affecting victims of domestic abuse that could be improved and different ways to legally disincentivize participating in adultery. Number one on my wish list is aligning the current legal definition of financial consent with the definition of sexual consent.

Seriously, what kind of society puts greater value on money than bodily sovereignty? It’s embarrassingly backwards. But if addressed, if someone deceives a sexual partner in such a way that the partner would refuse sex if they knew the truth, it’s technically rape by deception even if it isn’t yet criminalized. This keeps the issue about consent, not so much sex. That way those in open relationships could be free to live as they wish as long as they secure the consent of all partners but those who don’t risk criminal prosecution. By that hypothetical token, anyone who knowingly abets abets rape by deception might also risk being charged as an accessory. It could protect both unwitting partners and those who were unknowingly roped into sex with a person who pretended to be single.

From the victim perspective, the trauma of rape by deception is arguably no less than someone who was given a date rape drug and learns much later that they were raped while unconscious even if they don’t remember the act itself. Many survivors would arguably need the same kind of emotional and social support to recover from the categorically traumatic experience. Therefore the act should be criminalized and survivors afforded appropriate supports and resources as victims of similar crimes. Justice is the best PTSD treatment after all.

And I’m sure if enterprising social scientists linked forces with healthcare cost analysts they’d discover that providing no justice for victims of rape by deception costs societies far more in terms of collective negative impact on mental and physical health than criminalizing it would cost. At the very least, it might address one of the leading causes of dangerous STDs since married women dominate new HIV diagnoses around the world and battered women have far higher rates of STDs. Yet no one so far is putting two and two together with rape by deception.

Also related to this is the current movement to criminalize coercive control. For one, so much of what average FW’s do to facilitate the enforcement of one-sided monogamy involves behaviors that are definitively coercive and controlling. Furthermore, it would behoove chumps to get involved in crafting this legislation to ensure it doesn’t inadvertently end up penalizing chumps– for instance there should obviously be an exemption loophole for sleuthing a partner’s electronic devices if the motive was valid concern– established by patterns of behavior or facts– over bodily harm (STDs) or embezzlement of family assets for affairs or hookers because financial abuse is often categorized as “violence” due to the sometimes life-threatening effects on families and children.

Speaking of financial abuse, I think the same laws governing receipt of stolen property should apply to affair partners who accept gifts or amenities from cheaters. Just like claiming ignorance that the property one received was stolen is no protection from criminal consequences if the value is not returned to victims, APs and escorts should be obliged to return the value of all schmoopie perks to chumps and their children or face prison and fines.

Imagine a world in which escorts routinely demand proof a john is single and mate poachers have to think twice before accepting free grub, booze or baubles or anything else from married douchebags. It would certainly thin the ranks of people willing to get involved with cheaters. And considering the numbers of women who view this as an economic strategy to compensate for unequal pay and student loan debt, more might end up channeling their energy into addressing economic inequality in other ways.

Naturally all the FWs in power would push back against any of the above like their arses were on fire but what advancement for humanity and equality ever came without a fight?

Last edited 6 months ago by Hell of a Chump
SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
6 months ago

You know, it’s interesting the way my brain works when it comes to this topic.

I did a long ass pick me dance, so I think when I consider MY story, I know I voluntarily had sex with the FW after DDay, so in that I gave this consent then, I assumed the situation doesn’t apply to me directly. Or more like I think “well I cant be mad about that because I DID have sex with him after I knew, so the years that I DIDN’T know about the affair and was having sex with him aren’t a problem, as I Iikely would have given consent, just like I did after D-Day.”

It’s like I am tying myself into a pretzel to discard what consent is. It doesn’t matter if I am pretty sure I would have continued having sex with him no matter WHEN I was made aware of the affair, consent is consent. He had my consent or he didn’t, it doesn’t matter if my answer was more than lilkely goingto BE yes. That is the entire point of gettig consent. Getting a black and white yes or no. (Not to mention, WHY was I having sex with him then? Because I was terrified of my life crumbling, which he still planned on doing everything to crumble it. he had sex with me because I was here, and she was across the country and because he COULD)

But here’s where it gets interesting. As I have mentioned, the FW is abusive in other ways. He was super difficult to be married to. The affair was my get out of free card. It forced me to leave what was not a healthy marriage. Well, it also forced me to SEE it was not healthy. (I thought I was just overlooking the flaws of the man I loved, like all spouses do. In the meantime, the relationsip was so incredibly unhealthy for me but I was jsut frozen in that cycle)

The other non-cheating abuse made it hard for me to find the strength to leave. I was terrified. I got therapy, found CL and CN and that is how I got out.

But one of the aspects of his affair that had me the angriest was knowing that there were years where he was being horrible to me, while he had her on the side and I had no idea. For ME, doing his laundry and being yelled at because his favorite pants were in the dryer and not in his closet while he was activelycheating and I didn’tknow? That was the thing that I didn’t consent to. And strangely, when I thought of putting up with all that crap, I never stopped to say “oh don’t get upset about that because if you knew about the affair sooner you wouldn’t have STOPPED doing his laundry, just like you didn’t stop sleeping with him when you found out.” Nope, I still get plenty angry over it.

Just interesting to me how warped my thinking can be.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago
Reply to  SortofOverIt

When I did advocacy, “coercive control” didn’t really exist as a concept in human victimology but it sort of did in primatology– Richard Wrangham’s studies in Gombe of ape violence in service of sexual control.

Wrangham’s argument is that males will target particular females for assault or intimidation in a way that almost shows planning because of the way this instills “now and later” control of victims. This is how males could preemptively squeeze a lot of future compliance out of only one or a few violent displays towards females– get a lot of bang for their buck in other words. Wrangham talks about the overlap between human domestic violence and preemptive ape violence in an interview starting at around 3:05: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj5QAIjDulQ:

The “now and later” theory was later mirrored in Evan Stark’s work on coercive control. One memorable vignette from his book by that name describes how a woman was pitching a winning game for her office softball team when her husband walked onto the field to offer her a sweater. From that moment on, the woman seemed to fall apart and could only lob wild pitches. This is because the “sweater” had a specific meaning: whenever her husband would violently batter her, he’d insist she wear a sweater to cover up the bruises on her arms. Apparently he was enraged by the positive attention she was getting during the game and the sweater was a warning of what was to come once they got home. Of course onlookers would not understand this so it just seemed she fell apart for no reason or “overreacted” to a mere sweater.

Years before Stark coined and defined coercive control and campaigned to criminalize it, we somehow limped along promoting emotional support and consensus between survivors using a grab bag of data and theories and ideas. Like when survivors would describe similar dynamics to the one you did– where they felt somehow complicit or “masochistic” for sometimes offering sex or not objecting to it even in the face of abuse and betrayal, we’d talk about Wrangham’s “protracted low maintenance rape” theories.

That usually caused a big “Aha!” for a lot of people. One survivor who later became a kickass advocate in Alaska absolutely refused to be ashamed about it and was very frank in explaining why “volunteering” made sense for her in terms of sheer survival. For one, victims are frog-boiled over time to understand that either refusing sex or not being “game” will unleash all sorts of punishments– either in the immediate moment or at some seemingly unrelated later time. And because if a woman isn’t “willing” and isn’t “into it,” sex can cause all sorts of internal damage– from bruising and contusions to life-threatening, fertility-killing uterine prolapse, etc. So the solution is for the subconscious to make victims “into it.”

Except the woman from Alaska was no longer “subconscious” about it and had developed the “double mindedness” of many long term captives. She was even funny about it. That idea really caught fire among other survivors and people even became giddy as the burden of false onus melted away.

The way you know that social science is mired in the dark ages due to gender politics is when victims themselves with no scientific training cobble together astounding theories that won’t be “discovered” by science for decades. We ended up realizing that basic avoidance of sexual injury from involuntary sex is probably one of the reasons Stockholm syndrome evolved in our ape ancestors and continued through human evolution.

These days, Dr. Emma Katz’s work seems to be a continuation of evolutionary research whether because it advanced in a direct line or because truly valid theories are like unkillable weeds and will grow through concrete. If you don’t have a subscription, here’s a cut and paste from one of her articles on Substack:

Domestically Violent Men Describe the Benefits of Abusing Women and ChildrenThis is how abusers describe the advantages they get, in their own wordsDr Emma Katz
Jul 11, 2023

Victims and survivors of domestic violence and abuse – and anyone who cares about them or works with them – often wonder why the abuser did what they did.
They wonder if the abuser’s abuse was:

  • (a) conscious and intentional, or
  • (b) an accidental (and therefore perhaps excusable) ‘mistake’.

This blog explores this question and ultimately suggests the following…
Answer: (a)
What they were doing was not accidental; it was highly purposeful.
Here is the key point.
Men usually use violence and abuse against women and children because it is FUNCTIONAL for them to do so.
It serves many functions in their lives and it brings them many benefits, benefits which, as we will see in this post, they can name and describe in depth.
Bringing these strategies to light helps to raise awareness and understanding of the harms that these abusers cause. Please read more on coercive control on this site, and also follow me on my social media channels.
Below, I tell a story about what might happen when a well-meaning sympathizer tries to understand domestically-abusive men. The remainder of the post explores:

  • … a court’s failed experiment based on a misconception that abusers lack communication skills
  • … how abusers were benefiting from abuse — I divide these benefits into 3 ‘dimensions’ and itemize each dimension in turn
  • … the link between abusers’ perceptions of their actions and our ‘ordinary’ assumptions about how relationships between men and women should work

Helping wife-beating men to ‘express their emotions’: a court’s failed experimentChuck Derry, an American anti-domestic violence campaigner based in Minnesota, ran court-mandated groups for men who beat their wives.
Derry was trying to help these abusive men to ‘express their emotions’, thinking that it would make them better husbands. However, this was a failed experiment.
What happened?
These abusive men revealed something eye-opening to Derry about their motivations for violence — and it completely changed Derry’s understanding of what needed to be done with these men.
The court’s idea at the time of Derry’s experience (Derry did this work from the early 1980s to the early 1990s) was to teach the men how to express their emotions and be more appropriately assertive. The court believed that if the men had better interpersonal skills, they could communicate more effectively with their wives — and their wife-beating would reduce.
Every week, Derry taught the men interpersonal skills and sent them home to practice on their wives.
The next week, the men came back to class to report on their progress.
Week after week, however, they told Derry it wasn’t working.

  • They had tried to use their newly-improved interpersonal skills to get their wives to do exactly what they wanted them to do — to do housework in a certain way, to treat the children a certain way, not to see their friends and family members, and so forth.
  • However, they told Derry, their attempts to communicate effectively with their wives in this way had failed: the wives had not complied fully enough, and so in the end they had still felt it necessary to beat them.

Derry soon realised that these men did not have a problem with communicating. What the men had a problem with was that they wanted extreme levels of control over their wives and families.
Derry wrote an article about his experiences. In that article, he explains how eye-opening this realization was for him:

I began then to slowly understand that I was teaching men multiple personal life skills and they were simply using those skills in attempts to control women even more effectively.

The batterers’ programme was therefore targeting the wrong issue — and, in doing so, putting women and children in danger. No amount of helping these men to communicate better in their ‘relationships’ was ever going to help. Instead, the issue was that these husbands were determined to subject their wives and children to very high levels of control, and were willing to beat them to reinforce their control.
The men admitted that they felt they benefited from the abuse, and from an abuser’s point of view they REALLY DID benefitOnce Derry had realised what was really going on, he thought it would be a good idea to get the men talking about why they were abusing their wives.
At this point, the sympathetic observer – the person who would answer (b) to the original question above and see domestic abuse as a mistake on the part of the perpetrator – might be hoping that once they got talking, the men would have started to re-think their wife-beating and begin to reform themselves into better husbands.
It did not end up that way.
When Derry first had a go at asking the men to talk about the benefits they got from wife-beating, they eventually warmed to the task and discussion flowed.
However, the results were unexpected and not very helpful to Derry.
The discussion did not lead to an exorcism of the inner demons motivating the men to behave badly. Instead, what happened was an avalanche of cold, hard logic.
This was a revelation to Derry. He saw that, while wife-beating was obviously wrong from a moral point of view, seen from the abuser’s purely functional point of view it had a lot of very real benefits:

The first time I did this exercise I looked at the blackboard and I thought, “Oh my God. Why would they give it up?”

Although the men did identify some potential reasons to give it up (e.g. ‘adult kids don’t invite you to their weddings’), the reasons to give it up were far outweighed by the reasons to carry on.
From an abuser’s point of view, they REALLY DID benefit from abusing women.
What did Chuck Derry’s men say were the benefits of abusing women? Emma’s 3D listAt the time, Derry noted down what the men said when they talked. In his article, he re-states it in a quite awesomely long list.
However, rather than just reproduce the list, I have decided to add a unique twist here in this blog by:

  • Grouping the list of benefits that the men talked about into 9 POINTS
  • Further grouping these nine points within 3 ‘DIMENSIONS’

Roughly speaking, these 3 dimensions are:

  1. what the abusive man can do (to the woman)
  2. what the abusive man can get (from abusing the woman)
  3. how the abusive man can live better (by abusing the woman)

The 1st Dimension: What the Abusive Man Can Do To the WomanPoint 1. Gaslighting and manipulatingThe ability to manipulate women into blaming themselves

  • Can convince her she’s screwin’ up
  • Convince her she’s nuts
  • Convince her she’s unattractive
  • Convince her she’s to blame
  • Convince her she’s the problem
  • Get her to admit it’s her fault
  • She’s to blame for the abuse
  • She won’t get help because she’s confused by my lies

Point 2. IsolationThe ability to disconnect women from their external support-network, making them less able to resist

  • Isolate her so her friends can’t confront me
  • She won’t get help against me for past abuse because she has no friends to support her

Point 3. ServitudeThe ability to ‘own’ a woman as a slave-like figure

  • She feels less worthy so defers to my needs and wants
  • (I get) a robot babysitter, maid, sex, food
  • She’s a nurse-maid
  • She’s an object
  • She comforts me
  • Get sex
  • Supper on the table
  • She works for me
  • I can dump on her
  • Have someone to unload on
  • Have someone to bitch at

The 2nd Dimension: What the Abusive Man Can Get From Abusing the WomanPoint 4. MoneyThe ability of the abusive man to gain financial power over and through women — to make women financially dependent and get money by exploiting them

  • She’s scared and won’t go out and spend money
  • Get the money
  • If she works—get her money
  • Get her to quit job so she can take care of house
  • Decide how money is spent
  • I’m breadwinner
  • She has to depend on me if I break her stuff

Point 5. PowerThe ability to be the master of ‘truth’ and decide ‘reality’

  • Power
  • I’m king of the castle
  • I get to know everything
  • Feeling superior
  • Proves your superiority
  • Win all the arguments
  • She will look up to me and accept my decisions without an argument
  • Bragging rights
  • Dictate reality
  • Get to ‘rewrite history’
  • Get to determine future

Point 6. ‘Respect’The ability to rule by fear, like a terrorist in the home

  • Respect
  • She tells me I’m great
  • Ego booster
  • She won’t argue
  • Keeps relationship going—she’s too scared to leave
  • If she’s late, she won’t be again
  • Intimidation
  • She’s scared & can’t confront me
  • She won’t call police
  • Get her to drop charges
  • Get her to support me to her family, my family, cops, judge, SCIP, prosecutors, etc.

The 3rd Dimension: How the Abusive Man Can Live Better By Abusing the WomanPoint 7. Freedom from the Relationship as a ‘Partnership’The ability to live life self-centredly, discarding the woman’s and children’s needs

  • Get your way: go out (drink, use drugs, spend family money, cheat)
  • Use money for drugs
  • Don’t have to change for her
  • Buy the toys I want
  • Take time for myself
  • I don’t have to help out
  • I don’t have to hang out with her or kids
  • Invite friends over without her knowing = more work for her
  • Don’t have to listen to her complaints for not letting her know stuff
  • No compromise = more freedom
  • Don’t have to get up, take out garbage, watch kids, do dishes, get up at night with kids, do laundry, change diapers, clean house, bring kids to appointments or activities, mop floors, clean refrigerator, etc.
  • Answer to nobody
  • Do what you want, when you want to
  • Don’t have to listen to her wishes, complaints, anger, fears, etc.
  • Make the rules then break them when you want
  • Don’t have to talk to her
  • Can make yourself scarce

Point 8. Control over the ‘Relationship’The ability to decide everything in the abusive ‘relationship’, i.e. on whose terms the abusive ‘relationship’ works

  • Total control in decision making
  • Decide where to go as a couple
  • She’s accountable to me in terms of being somewhere on time: I decide
  • Who to see
  • What to wear
  • Decide her social life—what she wears so you can keep your image by how she acts
  • I can choose battles & what it will cost her

Point 9. Control over the ChildrenThe ability to gain total control over the children, shaping their identities and weaponizing them in the abusive ‘relationship’

  • Control the children
  • Determine what values kids have—who they play with, what school they go to or getting to ignore the process—dictating what they “need”, food, clothes, recreation, etc.
  • Kids do what I say
  • Keeps kids quiet about abuse
  • Can use kids to “spy” on mom
  • Kids won’t tell mom what I did
  • Kids won’t disagree with me
  • Tell kids they don’t have to listen to mom
  • Kids on my side against her

A List of Functional Violence and Abuse: The list exposes our sympathizing attempts at ‘understanding’ abusive menThis list is very eye opening, isn’t it?
It certainly was for Derry. In his article he notes that:

After that first time asking the men about the benefits of their violence, I began to be much more effective in my work. It was astounding how dramatically the groups changed once I acknowledged and remembered that the violence was functional— and that was why they used it.

This basic truth that the violence was functional goes against a lot of common ‘understandings’ of domestic violence.
People often attempt to ‘understand’ the male abuser by ‘revealing’ that he is not intentionally abusive, but instead:

  • is under the sway of a childhood trauma that haunts him
  • has problems controlling his anger and temper
  • is being provoked by a bad girlfriend or wife into ‘snapping’ or ‘seeing red’
  • can be a good father despite being an abusive husband

None of these sympathizing (or himpathizing) excuses for domestic violence and abuse stands up in relation to what Derry’s abusive men described. As we see in this article, the abuse was not a ‘mistake’ from the abuser — it was a clear and strategic intention.
What the list suggests is how coercive control is at the heart of ‘ordinary’ abusive men’s behaviourIt is particularly interesting that these were men on a court-mandated batterers’ program.
They were not men who had been specifically identified as coercive control perpetrators. They were a standard group of violent men whose behaviour had led to the attention of law enforcement.
Yet, coercive control is absolutely at the heart of these men’s descriptions of their behaviour.
These men wanted:

  • to have power, control and domination over their families;
  • to dictate ‘reality’;
  • to put their wives and children in highly weakened and vulnerable positions so that they could systematically exploit and manipulate them.

They wanted it all: they demanded their family live by their oppressive rules, yet they ensured that they had zero responsibilities or commitments to their family.
What this list tells YOU

  • If you had to live by many rules while he did as he pleased: that was conscious and intentional on his part.
  • If you were left feeling worthless, feeling very confused about what was happening, or feeling like it was all your fault: he consciously and intentionally made you feel like this to keep control over you.
  • If you dropped charges or defended him to family and friends: he was setting you up to do that via his conscious and intentional manipulation. Yes, you were making choices, but they were not free choices. He had deliberately taken so much of your freedom away by that point.
  • If your kids were harmed by his behaviour, that was conscious and intentional too. He saw the kids as targets just like he saw you as a target, and was very willing to harm them to maintain his dominance and power. That is a really tough thing for many people to think about, I know.

A Special Note on Control over the ChildrenA notable inclusion in the above list is point 9, control over the children. Being able to control, scare and manipulate their children was a specific feature of these abusive men’s descriptions of the benefits of being abusive.
These domestically abusive fathers valued being able to ‘dictate’ what their children did or did not ‘need’. They were not interested in finding out what their children actually needed. They wanted to impose their own self-serving ideas about what their children needed and turn these ideas into the reality that the family had to live by no matter the harm to the children.
These abusive fathers benefitted from being able to:

  • scare the children into keeping quiet about their abuse
  • prevent children from disclosing anything they might know or feel about the father’s abuse to mothers or to other adults
  • weaponize the children to spy on the mother
  • make the children disrespect the mother and to side with them over the mother

What Chuck Derry realised, therefore, was that these men had many incentives to keep abusing their wives and children, and very few disincentives. They simply weren’t going to stop abusing, given that the benefits of abusing were great and the negative consequences relatively small.
The lesson is this: If we want these men to stop, we need to make them pay a much higher price for their abuse.
Finally… the normality of the listWere these men deviant monsters? Were their attitudes very different from mainstream social attitudes? No.
In 2017, a multi-country, representative survey of 4,000 ordinary young men aged 18-30 found that not-dissimilar attitudes are widely held.
This 2017 survey with young men in the US, the UK and Mexico found that:

  1. 46% of US men, 37% of UK men and 26% of men in Mexico agreed that: ‘if a guy has a girlfriend or wife, he deserves to know where she is all the time.’
  2. 34% of US men, 33% of UK men and 21% of men in Mexico agreed that: ‘a man should always have the final say about decisions in his relationship or marriage.’
  3. 23% of US men, 25% of UK men and 10% of men in Mexico agreed that: ‘men should use violence to get respect, if necessary.’
  4. 22% of US men, 27% of UK men and 11% of men in Mexico agreed that: ‘a husband shouldn’t have to do household chores.’

So, both Derry’s batterers and these ordinary male survey respondents think that:

  • men are entitled to have a high level of control and surveillance over women whom they happen to be in a ‘relationship’ with
  • men should be in charge in a ‘relationship’ by default, and that men should have the final say about everything while the woman has the final say about nothing
  • men should live in households without having to do any of the chores required for the maintenance of a household
  • for men it is acceptable to use violence to get ‘respect’ in cases where the man thinks it is ‘necessary’ to do this

The men in the survey were young: not men from our parents’ or our grandparents’ generation — the new husbands and new fathers of the 2020s and beyond. What we are seeing here is an indication of a pretty strong overlap between the way battering men think and the way that a large percentage of the male population actually thinks (and some of the female population too, I’m sure).
Is it any wonder, then, that many people in our societies (including law-enforcers and people who write news stories):

  • are unsure where ‘reasonable’ male demands in a relationship stop and abuse starts?
  • have a great deal of difficulty in seeing men’s abuse of women and children as a serious crime that should carry heavy consequences?

One thing is for sure: societies will make little progress tackling men’s abuse of female partners’ and children while sexism still plays such a role in mainstream ideas about what men can expect and demand.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago

One last thought: post-separation abuse never comes out of the blue but is invariably the final hurrah following long previous patterns of abuse and coercive control. But if these abusers can be busted for the abuse– even subviolent abuse– they committed prior, it makes it a lot harder for them to wage post-separation terror campaigns and weaponization of the court system and child custody when they’re constrained by protective orders, facing criminal charges or in prison.

Rensselaer
Rensselaer
6 months ago

The loss of personal agency was devastating. I made decisions for my life because I believed I owned the truth of my life. I couldn’t fathom that the man I partnered with would manipulate my perceptions for the purpose of extracting value for himself. The veneer of a solid marriage, good provider, faithful family man. Every bit of it a facade that I steadfastly reinforced should a thin spot appear. I defended him whenever someone dared to try and insert a bit of reality that I wasn’t willing to see… for decades.
Now, I see him for what he was, is, and will always be.

Leedy
Leedy
6 months ago
Reply to  Rensselaer

“The loss of personal agency was devastating. I made decisions for my life because I believed I owned the truth of my life.” Yes–and THIS, I think, is an aspect of the experience of betrayal that a FW can’t begin to see.

A cheater can’t afford, psychologically, to start to imagine how it feels, as a chump, to realize that “the truth of your life” has been stolen out from under you. If the cheater were to see that this theft of reality leaves us feeling flayed at an absolutely primal level, they would find it hard to live with themselves. So they just have to shrug and move on.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Leedy

I think the acceptance of who he is and what this was is made exponentially harder to come to because there is ZERO accountability: shrug and move on, or in my case blame me. He said I made our bedroom stressful for him by accusing him of infidelity so he needed something transactional. So I’m having to work on accepting that there will never be accountability on his part. I’ve accepted that I do not want this in my life, but the other is a very bitter pill.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

NN,

I know how badly us chumps can crave accountability. It is so frustrating to hear the exciuses and blameshifting.

I have had a very long and dragged out situation. Way too long. Some of that was the FW not wanting to just give me a divorce, some of it was me being too twisted up from being with such a disordered person for so long that I was too afraid to push thigs forward agaist his will.

Anyway my point is, as this has been such a long process, I’ve seen the FW go through so many stages. I don’t know if he would get an official diagnosis for a mental health issue, but he exhibits many disordered traits. One thing he absolutely could not do is take the blame. He tried everything early on to hoover me back for years EXCEPT take accountability.

The longer we were separated and the closer we’ve come to a finalized divorced, and the more therapyI have had, the better I have been at setting and holding boundaries.

And those boundaries are something he cannot tolerate. He can’t handle losing the control he had over me. In his desperation, his final act has been to show SOME accountability. Sometimes he will say things that are pretty perfect, fully accepting that we are where we are becaus of his actions period. But mostly it’s some of that with a “but” follow up where he pushes off SOME of the blame.

I am tellin you this to say that I fully understand your need for your ex to accept responsibility. But I also want to tell you, that I got some of that, and it was so incrediblt hollow and unsatisfying. And I don’t think he means it at all, I think he is just trying to throw whatever he can at the wall and see what sticks.

I think as Chumps, some of our feelings we just HAVE to feel. We have to work through them and it just takes time to get past them. But if it is any consolation to you and if it helps you move past that one frustration faster, I just want to say he could at some point say “I know I completely fucked up and it is ALL on me” and it still might not make you feel ANY better. It might just be so anticlimatic. It was for me.

Leedy
Leedy
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

Yes, this is a bitter pill for me too.

damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster
damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster
6 months ago
Reply to  Rensselaer

it’s a relief to see them for what they are, isn’t it? freeing. it’s got nothing to do with you.

tallgrass
tallgrass
6 months ago

I also believe this is the way forward for us as a part of the world. I love Tracy’s analysis of the business partnership in her book. And the there would be legal and financial consequences if this had been a business partnership. In the divorce process, you learn the courts only care about the money and the assets of the marriage contract anyway. So let’s run it thru the same process as a cheating, lying, stealing long term business partner. As i found out, it was never a marriage anyway.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  tallgrass

Exactly, they would be fired and sued.

Bluewren
Bluewren
6 months ago

The sex is the very least of it.

It’s the being tricked into a relationship you didn’t ask for and one that is pure illusion.

It’s the most mindfuck thing ever to realise that nothing was real and they planned to scam us all along – they chose us but not in the way they had us believe.

Build your support team, Get what’s yours, Get out.

We’re with you .

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Bluewren

Thank you! And you’re right, they chose us for reasons we couldn’t see.

lulutoo
lulutoo
6 months ago

Nothing New: You are truly mighty. You will survive… and thrive! And like Chumplady’s Aunt, your walls will sing one day!

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  lulutoo

Looking forward to that!

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
6 months ago

(raises hand) Mental Health Professional here. These are diagnostically disordered people. Period. Something becomes “disorder” when it interferes with normal function. It doesn’t necessarily have to be crippling. I’d say any of the double life behaviors that jeopardize the primary support system if discovered constitute the same sort of risk taking behaviors you see in more…classical mental health.

Let me better illustrate the example for people that struggle with this.

Suppose, for the sake of case study, that you have an individual that is in a long term, possibly legally binding domestic partnership (We will compartmentalize little details and just stay general here-just take this walk with me). This individual elects to, for reasons only known to them, begin another relationship with somebody else whilst still “with” their base “family.” Apart from making the decision to allocate resources elsewhere (time, money, attention, etc.) without the express consent of the family unit, they also elect to keep it a secret. Now, any reasonable person is going to start to notice things like absences and inconsistencies in presentation and narrative. So the Individual elects to concoct false narratives to continue to engage in this additional relationship. If confronted rather than being honest they become defensive, either increasing the level of dishonesty or otherwise go on the offensive-all because they were questioned.

I think I kept that broad enough to make my point here. Point to the part where the Individual is acting reasonably and not in a disordered fashion. I’ll wait. We use similar criteria to identify addiction, which IS disordered. Why is it when it’s a pill addiction we send them to rehab and when it’s a blowjob we listen to the gossip?

Look up the amount of men with Cluster B features that get diagnosed if you want some interesting reading on the topic. Perhaps it’s the unique nature of my profession, but you don’t end up in therapy because of a personality disorder-you go for other stuff and “get badged’ after intake.

Where you bump into issues here is that most of your personality disordered types (of which we have identified multiple times here) tend not to find themselves in front of a skilled diagnostician…or in any kind of therapy lest they screw something else up. As our friend Nothing New here posits, they are going to use that all to triangulate with likely an unskilled couples counselor.

Mine took her drubbing the one time we made it to couples counseling to her credit-she also wasted 5 years of individual therapy as she took no ownership or accountability for anything she thought, said, or did and everything was apparently my fault (therapy is not, by the way, a personal cheerleader 100% of the time.) I cannot speak to if that would have changed too much-it turned out her answer to relationship issues was to scrub and start over or else get her needs met elsewhere rather than have difficult conversations.

Double plus Yes, It Is a Consent Issue. The social contract of the relationship was violated predicated on this. There was the opportunity to discuss things where they would still have to honor if the answer was “no.” There was the opportunity to ethically end the relationship if not getting what they wanted was a hill that they would die on. Of course I imagine in many cases that the phrase “But then I wouldn’t…” starts to trigger and we have the explanation for a lot of horrific shit.

Have a Mighty Monday!

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

There are a lot of unskilled counselors. He’s currently in therapy and has offered to sit down with me with a therapist and discuss some of our marital issues. So… the issue would be lying. You can’t discuss issues with a liar, they gaslight. Also the therapist only knows what the FW shares so… like with your ex how helpful is this ultimately going to be for him?

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
6 months ago
Reply to  NothingNew

“There are a lot of unskilled counselors. ”

Thgis group opened my eyes on that. Some of the advice Chumps have received is criminal! I really lucked out in that I found a REALLY good therapist, first try. Mine is my personal therapist, we didn’t do couple’s counseling. That probably helps.

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
6 months ago

Chump Lady and Chump Nation recognize infidelity as abuse, as fraud, as a consent issue. The world, for all of recorded history, in general has not. Until it happens in your own life, and sometimes not even then.

It’s also a hostage situation. If you are in a relationship and you are being deceived, you are also being held hostage.

Legal recourse, the justice system, and restitution are available for almost any other situation where contracts are broken or fraud is perpetrated. It’s very telling that those options are unavailable for cases of infidelity.

It would be nice to see legislation but I won’t hold my breath.

Infidelity is when your intimate partner has their boot on your neck. And deny it while you are choking. And everyone else denies it too, unless they have felt that boot on their neck.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Yes to hostage! I told my sister I felt Rapunzeled! She asked if that was a new term, I said it is to me.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

If men also have no legal recourse against being cheated on by women and are sometimes screwed in divorce (for example, being forced to financially support a former partner who physically endangered and psychologically abused them and probably also siphoned and embezzled joint assets for years), I think it’s really a case where patriarchal societies have to be willing to break a few “Gregs” to make a misogynist omelette.

In short, though some things have improved, divorce is still designed to entrap women, penalize them for escaping and make it much harder for them to move on and put men at a significant advantage in all these senses simply because of who’s in power, who mostly does the abusing and controlling and who is mostly victim to it.

Besides, those “Gregs” are likely contemptible and disposable misfits within the patriarchy– maybe even potential upstarts and threats to it– if they fail to be sufficiently knuckle-dragging and toxic to keep their boots on dem bitches necks.

The willingness of societies to sacrifice some males on the alter of patriarchy might seem especially glaring and unconscionable when it comes to child protection where obviously half the children negatively impacted by family abuse (and more than half the children severely injured and killed by men who also assault their partners) are male. But I think there’s still a demented version of the “sacrifice for the greater good” (the “good” being dah patriarchy) equation at work here because, even if boys within domestic violence dynamics are more likely to be killed by abusers, a reliable percentage of boys who “graduate” from (survive) the dysfunctional family training camp are more likely to turn into future champions of the patriarchy as they grow up to compulsively reenact the abuse they witnessed and experienced as children.

And if they don’t survive? Social Darwinism! Interesting to note that one of the reasons boys are more likely to be severely injured and killed in domestic violence dynamics is that boys are reportedly more likely than girls to try to physically protect their mothers from assault by battering male role models. In effect, it’s like a self-cleaning oven to kill off any of those potential pesky “positive masculinity” types.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago

Oh and I forgot… if the sacrificial “Gregs” who get screwed over by she-FWs and suffer the slings and arrows in divorce ostensibly designed for women don’t end up on a support forum like this one, there’s a chance some may wander into the abyss of the manosphere bro club where emotional trauma coupled with lack of political understanding may make some more vulnerable to turbo charged misogynist radicalization. In fact I think a lot of the tactics, disinformation and junk statistics used by those groups is precisely designed to do this by pretending that the relative minority of men who get heavily screwed in abusive relationships and divorce are actually in the majority and that the system is actually slanted in the other direction because of worldwide dominion by feminazis! Which is demonstrably not true but who needs facts when there’s rage and rhetoric and a notorious dearth of healthier forms of emotional support between men?

Anyway, it may not not always a sacrifice when dudes get hoisted on the petards meant for women. Sometimes it creates a few super soldiers for dah patriarchy or at least dupes who, in the heat of crisis, throw away money for crap life coaching bro seminars that will only lead them to greater misery and loneliness.

Last edited 6 months ago by Hell of a Chump
moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
6 months ago

Just want to take a moment to weigh in on whether infidelity should be illegal and punishable as a crime. My opinion is it should not. Here’s why. As a civil matter, it is effectively a contract violation. Parties enter into and exit contracts all the time. It is annoying and expensive and messy, but it could be worse. Like a criminal case. In a criminal suit, the burden of proof is much higher. The burden of proving is placed on the shoulders of the plaintiff. There are strict rules about gathering evidence and its admissibility. And the outcome is determined not by the parties to the case, but by either a judge or a jury. It’s easy to see how this could be navigated (especially by a savvy lawyer narcissist) to his or her advantage.
Also, when the stakes are higher, a lot of people tend to up their game in how well they cover their tracks. It doesn’t act as the deterrent we hope it might. It just makes them sneakier.
I think many of us are here because our spouse got sloppy and left enough evidence for us to find. Imagine how much harder that would be to accomplish if they risked a judicial ruling on top of everything else.

SortofOverIt
SortofOverIt
6 months ago

” think many of us are here because our spouse got sloppy and left enough evidence for us to find. Imagine how much harder that would be to accomplish if they risked a judicial ruling on top of everything else.”

I only found out because he confessed. I did not suspect a thing. I think he may have told me because she gave him an ultinatum, “tell her or I will”. He also was looking towards leaving me for her, so it couldn’t remain a secret all that much longer.

But my point is, if he was worried about a judicial ruling, he would NEVER have told me and who knows how long it all would have gone out without my figuring it out. It was long distance, so she wasn’t around. And his phone had always been locied to me. (which should have been a huge red flag but it wasn’t)

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
6 months ago

Good points. I also don’t think that adultery can be legally banned (unless we want to return to the stone ages) but, as I argued earlier, I think some of the stock behaviors used by most cheaters to facilitate and enforce one sided monogamy (cheating in a nutshell) and many of the other abuses related to cheating could feasibly be criminalized or at least civilly sanctioned.

For instance, most cheaters engage in some form or other of coercive control so universalizing laws against coercive control and improving the language of these laws could help provide more legal recourse for chumps as well as all victims of psychological terror tactics. Also many cheaters commit “rape by deception” by roping chumps into continuing to have sex under circumstances that chumps would otherwise refuse if they knew the truth. There’s also the potential for laws governing “receipt of stolen goods” to be applied to schmoopies benefiting from dissipation of family assets for affairs. There’s at least one precedent of this in California.

To change policies and laws in this regard, it would first be necessary to align laws and definitions governing financial consent in business and financial transactions with laws and definitions applying to marriage and also apply the legal definition of financial consent to sexual consent. Changing these legal definitions would probably require a legislative fire fight of epic proportions but it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibilities.

About your point that making things illegal only makes offenders wilier, this is certainly true for all criminal behavior. But as someone who worked in advocacy for domestic abuse victims, I learned that, as wily and avoidant of consequences as career criminals (which abusers are) tend to be, there’s still typically a degree of disordered thinking going on which is why many criminals in general get caught. Never enough obviously (60% for murder but only 17% for theft, arson, carjacking, etc) but it’s enough to disincentivize for a lot of people. And here’s why a piecemeal approach to making certain forms of “subviolent” domestic abuse related to cheating legally punishable might work: if you bust a criminal on one little thing and they have a record, rates of future prosecution go way up. It basically pays to get the Al Capones of the world on tax evasion.

When social scientists talk about disordered thinking, they don’t mean disabling mental illness necessarily. Domestic abusers mostly aren’t “crazy” in the sense of being equally likely to punch their boss or scream threats at an armed mall cop as they would a partner behind closed doors. But wily and pragmatic as it is, criminal mentality is still not normal and includes certain common distortions. For instance, the “splitting” behavior in Cluster B disorders typically includes significant distortions of victims’ characters and human value and also contempt and condemnation towards “condemners”. In other words, there’s a tendency to view both victims and disapproving bystanders (including helping professionals) with contempt, including potentially mistakenly seeing both as dumber and weaker than they may actually be and for abusers to overestimate their own superior cleverness.

Super cyborg “zero empathy” psychopaths who are fully conscious that certain things are wrong but still coldly plan offenses and never suffer lost sleep or get neurotic about it are actually quite rare if they really exist. Consequently, most serial offenders have to use certain elaborate mental tricks (called “neutralization” or “neutralization of guilt” in forensic psychology) to quell conscience or a sense of stigma for their offenses. And this is where the need to distort reality in service of rationalizing at victims’ expense may fuck them up and make them progressively less rational.

Anyway, I think that’s one of the reasons that cheaters tend to get sloppier at hiding their trails over time: because as the abuse escalates, so does the distorted contempt for victims and disapproving bystanders and their own defensive grandiosity.

There’s also the idea that a lot of offenders subconsciously want to get caught and stopped… as if the lifestyle involved in being a compulsive douchebag is somehow not that happy or fulfilling. I’ve wondered if this might be part of the reason that, contrary to the debunked old theory that domestic abusers always seek “weak” and psychologically deficient targets, they actually statistically skew towards choosing prey who are stronger and more confident than average.

Some of it could be bragging rights: in the mentality of hunters, a tiger skin rug is more impressive than a bunny foot key chain. But it might have something to do with abusers being pathologically stunted adults having infantile impulses similar to naughty children who, according to child psychology, may suffer painful existential angst from lack of parental supervision and boundaries.

It sheds light on the way that certain serial killers like the Zodiac killer, BTK serial killer and Son of Sam repeatedly taunted police as if wanting to get caught. Though the Zodiac killer was never identified, David Berkowitz is described as being “happy” in prison and Dennis Rader describes himself as “feeling safe” while serving his life+ sentence.

NothingNew
NothingNew
6 months ago

You are correct about sloppy. He had a secret Yahoo account and for some reason chose to text the escort.

Elsie_
Elsie_
6 months ago

Truly proving adultery has always been hard. Even if you put the affair partner on the stand, there are often character issues cloud their testimony. If the FW confessed, you have all the questions about the conditions where they did that. And maybe the videos, photographs, and receipts would stand up, or maybe not.

My attorney said that he much preferred using adultery as a bargaining tool to push to settlement versus actually going to trial for-cause adultery. They still do that in my state, but he said there were way too many ways for that to go wrong, in his opinion.

Besides, settling is way cheaper than a trial. I settled.

Viktoria
Viktoria
6 months ago

My story exactly, except a kid did not discover the iphone- ipad evidence, I did. A whole buncha prostitutes going back many years. Yes this is a consent issue. It would be so satisfying to put the fear of severe legal consequences into the hearts of these fuckers. Punishment– yeah that would be great. I have all the evidence I need right here, and in the hard drives of several friends. But no one in “society” seems to care enough about women to punish married/ legally committed men for lying, deception, gaslighting, non consensual sex (between the cheater and his unknowing wife) and sexual betrayal (which is abuse). In our culture, they either deny their scoundrel activities or they boast about it. I say let’s bring back shame, and make sure it is theirs and they feel it. I know, I’m so old fashioned.