Should I Confront My Cheating Wife?
They’re divorcing anyway, but he wants to know if he should confront his cheating wife with the evidence of her affairs? Does it even matter?
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Hey Chump Lady,
I (M/44) have been chumped, and my therapist thinks my circumstances are a bit unique.
Since found your blog and book, it has quite literally changed my entire outlook on my pending divorce. I was in a bad spot of depression and despair, but your book has dragged me out of that dark place and shown me that eventually things will be better off. I’m so much stronger now than I was.
My soon-to-be ex (married 9 years, together 15) had an affair back in 2017, during a time when our sex life was really pretty low. I found out by seeing the incriminating text messages between her and her affair partner. When I confronted her about it, she denied that anything actually happened, saying he was just a very good friend from before when she and I even started dating, and that’s just how they always talked to each other.
I didn’t believe it, not even for a second, but I wasn’t strong enough to pull the trigger on divorce.
(We had a 7 year old son and a barely over 1 year old daughter. I thought we could reconcile past it if she stopped seeing the other guy).
She did stop seeing and texting him, and for awhile afterwards things in our life were pretty great. Our sex life came back in a really pretty good way, and I was fooled into believing that the worst was behind us. In hindsight, she was trying to deflect my unhappiness, because if I would have filed for divorce, she would have been in a terribly desperate spot.
At the time my wife was a stay-athome mom. Our finances were tight, but we were able to exist on a paycheck to paycheck basis. It wasn’t fun, but it was treading water. If I would have filed for divorce, she would have had no income other than spousal/child support and would likely have been living with her mother in a 3 bedroom house while sharing custody of the 2 kids.
Fast forward to 2024.
My wife started acting suspicious, in the same way she was acting in 2017 during the first affair.
She changed her phone passcode, was noticeably careful about making sure I couldn’t see the new phone code, and started hiding her screen if I walked by. Red flags started popping up everywhere.
She didn’t change the passcode to her iPad however. And because she has her messages synced across devices, I was still able to monitor. She started texting with the 2017 partner again, and eventually things started turning back towards the kind of talk they had leading up to the previous affair. I went back into “collecting evidence” mode, because I had learned to forgive but definitely not forget. If I saw more concrete evidence, I was going to file for divorce. However, I never got what I would consider strong enough evidence before things got to be a bit more unique.
She actually told me that she wanted a divorce, that she wasn’t happy and she could tell that I wasn’t happy either. After reading your book, I realize this is a bit odd, because this cheater seemed to be intentionally forgoing the opportunity for Cake.
After she decided to end the marriage, I came across significant concrete evidence of additional affairs.
At the time, she (almost certainly) had an affair with the original 2017 partner, a confirmed multiple night affair with a friend of hers living abroad that was back in town for a week (those were some STEAMY text messages), and she was already in the process of setting up periodic booty calls with a third guy.
Now that we have officially decided to divorce, she seems to see this as a green light to sleep with anyone she wants. Now she’s got a fourth partner. (Ironically, her ex boyfriend she broke up with about 2 weeks before we started dating.) And she had a date with another potential suitor (although she denies it was a date).
In retrospect, I can see that all her lying and gaslighting was abusive. She did physically hit me one time, which I should have filed a report, but stupidly didn’t. But she has piled on truckloads of mental and emotional abuse. Clearly, she was/is doing is meant to not only make her feel good but to severely demean and hurt me.
I have collected loads and loads of evidence, but I haven’t confronted her about it yet.
(Because I am TERRIBLE at confrontation, and she is REALLY GOOD at it). I know I need to, but I don’t quite know how, and I don’t know if ultimately it will make any difference. Thanks to my father’s estate we were able to pay our house off completely, but now that we are responsible for the ridiculous yearly tax payments. Without escrow rolling into a mortgage, we actually can’t afford to live in the house any more. Once the divorce is final, we will sell the house and split the proceeds from the sale.
I could amend my divorce filing to be infidelity, and seek a higher percentage of the settlement. But, our finances are stretched thin. If the divorce drags out (and the costs go up), my bottom line of the settlement would go down, since we’re both paying our legal fees out of the sale of the house.
I have brought all of these issues to my lawyer, and out of concern for my future financial welfare, she thinks leaving the filing as “irreconcilable differences” is probably the best choice.
But all the while, it still burns at the very core of my being that she’s off having all this fun, and truly thinks that she’ll get away with it. So, my question:
Given what’s at stake, is it even worth it to confront my cheating wife?
I would love nothing more than to spread all this evidence to everyone she knows in an attempt to embarrass her. But I know that ultimately that won’t matter much. It would open up the possibility of legal complications down the road, which I cannot afford.
Thanks for your wonderful website and life changing book. Even with all this crap going on, I know that once I’m free, I’ll have a chance to gain my life and find a person that won’t put me through hell like my ex has. “Tuesday” is coming, and I eagerly look forward to it getting here.
Please help!
Over-Spackled and Out Of This Marriage.
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Dear Over-Spackled and Out of the This Marriage,
You say you don’t like conflict, but my chumpy friend, knowledge is power.
As cheaters well know. That’s why they keep their affairs secret.
It sounds like you don’t want to confront your cheating wife because you fear that would drive up the divorce costs. It might actually have the opposite effect. I’m not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. This is my opinion based on how I divorced a cheater and a bunch of us here have navigated this nightmare. You could leverage this knowledge into a settlement.
Gee Agatha, I cannot give you my grandmother’s punchbowl and every Christmas with the kids. However, if you want to fight about it, we could depose that guy Bill you were blowing at work. And his supervisor in account’s payable?
Then you fumble through your notes, read some steamy text messages…
She should understand you’re not her chump any longer.
The power balance has shifted. You know. And you’re not afraid to use that knowledge. Better yet, communicate this via your lawyer. Let her IMAGINE how you might use this knowledge. In a custody battle? She knows it’s worse than whatever you know, so she should twist a bit wondering and fearing that you might make greater discoveries. Let her draw the conclusion that it would be best to settle on your terms.
Now, it’s true. Courts do not care about your broken heart. However, they DO care about theft of marital assets. Monies spent on affairs are monies you can ask back for in the divorce. I’d absolutely tally that up. The financial discovery process could get very interesting. I advise chumps to ask for a credit report during discovery, because that will reveal hidden debts, cards, PO boxes and whatever double financial life they’ve got going. Totally press those levers.
Do NOT, however, confront your cheating wife to embarrass her.
I would love nothing more than to spread all this evidence to everyone she knows in an attempt to embarrass her.
If it feels good, don’t do it. That could boomerang on you, and you want clean hands. Especially in family court. You do NOT want the narrative of controlling, jealous ex-husband. Trust me, people know she’s a cheater. This isn’t a shock to most people in her inner circle but you. To be chumped is to be conspired against.
And as for her? You might as well try and shame a doorpost. Serial cheaters don’t care. If they had empathy synapses they wouldn’t be serial cheaters.
Usually, when I get the should I confront question it’s with some misguided attempt at reconciliation or shaming affair partners. Chumps think we have some powers of moral persuasion, or that FWs will see our pain and care. We don’t and they won’t. Venting your anger at them just gives them the centrality they so desperately crave. So, the winning move is no contact.
In your case, however, you aren’t confronting so much as disclosing (perhaps via your attorney). And I’m in favor of whatever upsets the power balance in favor of chumps. Wipe that smug look off her face and use what you know.
Will it matter?
But I know that ultimately that won’t matter much. It would open up the possibility of legal complications down the road, which I cannot afford.
Look, you should always be aware when divorcing a FW that they aren’t going to behave reasonably or fairly. This very well may cost you more than you wanted to spend. It will still be worth every penny to be out.
You have power here. Use it wisely. She should be afraid of YOU, not the other way around.
Hang in there.
You’re on your way out. Yay you. Now that your mutual intention to split is set, you can stop policing her, and think about you. I was going out three nights a week after calling it quits with my FW and I didn’t wait for a divorce decree. I had been waiting for fun and eventually romance long enough already.
Good points.
Maybe my state is different? No one seemed to care about my receipts. Seven years of glorious freedom getting better every day.
I dunno. I would still be gathering evidence where I could, since they are still legally married and still living in the same home. I would not be going out for fun and certainly not romance while custody was on the table.
I would also be getting a second opinion, legally. I hope all goes well for you, LW. 🙌🏽
It’s wonderful that you’re enjoying your new found freedom. It sounds like, as a father facing a potential custody tug of war, it’s probably best if Over-Spackled retains the moral high ground and does not get romantically entangled until the ink is dry but getting out there, socializing and renewing one’s love of life is a fantastic plan.
Over Spackled – Consider a second legal opinion.
You’re in the thick of things – still living together (?), parenting a teenage son and school age daughter, an upcoming house sale.
You were apparently all in (co-mingling an inheritance with marital house asset) and she’s dating before the divorce is final. Just try to do “the next right thing” with the facts as you know them.
The freedom is worth it.
Yes, consider asking a different lawyer’s opinion if you can; even pay for a one-hour consultation with review of your financial documents. I considered two different lawyers in my divorce, went with the second one, and ended up with a much better settlement that was not 50/50 (more like 80/20, for me) even though it was technically a no-fault divorce. There is more than one way to do this, and lawyers can have very different strategies on dealing with a cheating STBX.
Over Spackled,
Now is the time to be Strategic rather than vindictive.
You have information that you could use (or threaten the use of) to influence your Divorce proceedings in your favour. Most jurisdictions don’t really give a stuff about infidelity within marriage when it comes to the Divorce settlement (although some do). What is clear, however, is that most Cheaters hate being exposed, particularly in Court, and you can potentially use – through your lawyer – your silence on the matter to get a better settlement.
What you should not do is use the information to embarrass your STBX; firstly because it will very likely cause them to behave in ways that are unhelpful when it comes to the settlement and, secondly, because you only get to use that information once ….. I’d actually argue that the threat of its use is often more powerful than its actual use.
Think Strategically, act wisely and play the long game.
LFTT
Yes. This. FWs keep their affairs secret because they want to look like Pillars of the Community, SuperMom, and Boss of the Year rolled into one. They don’t want you to blow their cover. You have more power than you think. Whether you use it or not, they will file against you later because it’s fun for them and they miss drama when there isn’t any. Don’t play nice an expect her to do the same. She won’t.
Over Spackled, I totally get you. I had two DDays. I confronted the cheater but did not show my evidence. I got sucked into the RIC after DDay 1 but after DDay 2, I lawyered up. From that point, I gave all evidence to my lawyer. Sure I was the marriage police for a while but at least I worked for my larger part of the settlement. I live in a fault state so I was able to go for adultery (which was leverage). He tried to counter for abandonment (unfortunately, he could not prove it). The FW fought to try to get a greater settlement (he thought he was entitled to 80-90%). Finally, the judge became tired of his antics and ordered a settlement conference to be handled by a retired judge. This was when my lawyer showed all the evidence from his homemade porn with Schmoopie and secondary Schmoopie and randos to receipts, monthly payments, his dating site profile and receipts for the services. Although the adultery was not the primary factor, having the receipts was what really mattered to the court. I ended up getting a great settlement and FW had the sads when he had to sign things over and hand over what the court ordered.
My suggestion is you hand over any proof to your lawyer and then strategize if and when you will use it. It should be leverage for more time with the kids and even a greater share of the assets. The FW should not come out as good as or better than you (well in an ideal world anyway but we know it is not ideal). Get what you need and want.
I am always amazed at how people “date” when they are still legally married. In my state if you do this, it could be considered adultery. I am out for almost 3 years now after 2 years of battling in the courts with a FW! I am just living my life and getting ready to retire. Focus on getting free. Confronting a FW is not worth it.
“I am always amazed at how people “date” when they are still legally married. In my state if you do this, it could be considered adultery.”
In my state, adultery doesn’t matter as far as the legal side goes. But I saw a tiktok from a lawyer who was saying it’s still a bad idea. She said “if you want your divorce to take longer and cost more, then go right ahead, but otherwise don’t openly date until you are actually divorced.” Her point was that once you start openly dating and wanting to introduce your kids etc, if the divorce is ongoing, this can be a catalyst to more hard feelings and drama. In some fault states, dating while still married regardless of who lives where is adultery and that isn’t going to work out good for them either.
I found it funny because my STBX’s AP bailed as soon as he was moving out so he immediately started dating. This neither surprised nor bothered me. How could I possibly be bothered by some casual dates when he moved out? He’d had a whole ass soul mate on the side while married to me. Dating did not even register as an issue for me. Of course, then he met someone that got serious and that was before the divorce process had even stared, and he was MAD when I moved forward. HE was the one who told ME that they were serious. Did he want to start the divorce process AFTER they got engaged or what?
In the meantime, I am not sure if I will ever be interested in dating again. (And if not, that’s ok) while he on the other hand, had his AP and now had a second serious gf, both while we are still legally married. Divorce will be final this summer. I would not be surprised if he has a new serious gf before that.
“I am always amazed at how people “date” when they are still legally married.”
Mine not only dated, but had a “fiancee”. As far as I know it’s been a five year engagement because they are not married yet. Apparently he (and this is not normal) would explain to his patients that his assistant was his “fiancee” so it was perfectly fine to play grab-ass in the office. HIs wife was okay with it. Dr. D. Lusional strikes again.
Just curious – why does his therapist think his circumstances are a bit unique?
Maybe they will elaborate, but the way I read it, the therapist found it unique for the cheating wife to opt out of the marriage BEFORE they knew tey were caiught in a DDay #2. It soumds like the Chump was collecting evidence that after years she had goe back to cheatring, but the chump had not confronted her yet.
After being here in Chump Nation for awhile, that doesn’t seem that unique to me. That seems to happen plenty. But maybe the therapist doesn’t see that much?
Yes, I got the feeling both the therapist and the lawyer in this case are a bit naive or inexperienced with the stock selection of typical FW tactics.
Most people are ignorant of FW tactics until it happens to them.
Or in stubborn, willfully blind denial because, in the mucky depths of their unconscious minds, they’ve sided with Team Cheater/Abuser.
In my experience, genuinely innocent people– meaning the real McCoy pure Pollyanna types who wouldn’t hurt a fly– tend to go all agog when they hear about evil fuckery and say things like “My goodness that’s so wrong! Who would do such a terrible thing?”, etc.
Also in my experience, it’s really only people who are half “captor bonded” with creeps and creepiness in their personal or professional lives who seem to reflexively respond to victim narratives with what-abouting, splitting blame, minimizing, etc.
SortofOverIt, thank you. That was my feeling too, maybe therapist hadn’t dealt with many cheaters.
Yes I applaud 👏 Loudly all those who could line up duck, go stealth and wait. This feat is astoundingly praise worthy. But like holding in diarrhea or 🤢 vomit, No I could not. I found it, I screamed cried and yelled..x2 cheating husbands. Each time I lost it upon seeing the evidence of these wicked lying men. But it did start the train going and with #1 he left immediately to join his OW and filed himself. With #2 I was able to lock him out and start and emergency Divorce within 10 days of D day. So my inability to hold the betrayal inside until I was ready, still got acted on. For me, it worked out even with an unstable cheater at the end. I believe in miracles and timing and I believe in angels that step in. But my dear chumps, do what works but do get out safely. Sending my hope for your escape from prison.
Spackled, please get a second opinion from another lawyer. I think mine preferred to cave rather than fight, and I ended up with no alimony or child support, despite cheater’s theft of over $250K.
I literally had the receipts of the tens of thousands of dollars he’d sent the online AP, including credit card statements, his emails, bank and wire transfer documentation, etc., and had them all on a spreadsheet, too. Plus his electronic calendar listing dinners and vacations to four-star resorts at peak season and the various women he took there. He claimed the Western Union Wire transfers of $7000 and up, each, did not go through, although he had no proof of that. The mediator refused to give me credit for ANY of it, although it was clearly a misuse of marital assets. My lawyer told me the mediator said Cheater was entitled to spend money as he wanted, and if he choose to wine and dine other women at top tier venues, while tween and I relied on food banks, that was cheater’s call and I could have done the same. With what money?
It was a bitter pill to swallow, especially since I discovered, during divorce proceedings (and after the statute of limitations expired), that Cheater had stolen my non-marital assets- and had been stealing and hiding joint funds and other family member’s personal assets (such as inheritances) for years. The financial expert and my attorney were stymied because apparently he hid them out of state. He dragged out proceedings and threw up a lot of issues to run up legal fees, and my attorney said he’d do the same, and worse, if we went to court, and advised me to settle through mediation.
I suspect ideology sometimes wins out over bottom line, even for lawyers. I’ve interviewed several and got the eerie feeling that a few were so accustomed to representing cheaters in these standoffs that they’d kind of internalized a cheater-coddling/chump-screwing perspective as a way to resolve their dissonance over helping to harm innocent people. Or maybe their firms’ partners were cheaters and, for career advancement, they’d unconsciously internalized that view. Or maybe some were captor bonded adult children of FWs or cheaters themselves.
I’m always a bit leery when lawyers are telling you out of the gate not to bother using your best ammo without backing this up with clear explanations of options and local policy and case law, etc. In other words, if I feel steered rather than presented with all the options and attendant risks/benefits, I start smelling cognitive bias in favor of perpetrators.
In fact I really don’t want a FW or FW-apologist as a lawyer for any purpose, even if unrelated to divorce, etc. I once hired an education lawyer to represent my disabled son in a standoff with a school but I kept feeling steered in the wrong direction. The ed lawyer turned out to be– tada– an OWife. She dropped her guard at one moment and confided in me how she was helping her FW husband screw his ex-chump out of custody. I felt a sick chill and didn’t continue using this attorney’s services.
“The ed lawyer turned out to be– tada– an OWife. She dropped her guard at one moment and confided in me how she was helping her FW husband screw his ex-chump out of custody.”
WOW. It’s rather telling how they think what they are doing is brag worthy. That is the kind of personal detail you try to keep separate from your personal life.
I guess if they were pure cyborg sociopaths who were fully aware of right and wrong and just fine with doing wrong, they’d know enough to keep those things separate.
But, if that level of “zero empathy” even exists, it’s got to be pretty rare. Most people who do shitty things, even serial killers, appear not to like the negative social stigma involved and suffer from degrees of cognitive dissonance. I suspect this makes them reflexively want to campaign to normalize those shitty things, even attempting to shift cultural paradigms so that the wrong thing becomes the right thing. In any case, I’ve noticed how this type will sometimes attempt to hijack a sense of approval from anyone they can. Especially if they sense they have power over you and you’re not really free to tell them they suck, the temptation to grub your complicity and approval seems very overwhelming, like the sense of negative stigma is constantly eroding their identity and requires constant caulking and spackling by gathering an echo chamber. I thought that was interesting because it’s like a dark and creepy reflection of the same impulse that victims and survivors have to draft allies. I guess the one common denominator between victims and perps is that both want to change the world to make it safer for themselves.
In this case the attorney– who was with one of the fancier firms in the state– knew I was in desperate straits battling a school’s genuinely frightening retaliation against a civil rights complaint I’d filed on behalf of my son. The stakes were incredibly high and I needed help. So I think she sensed she could dribble out a bit of her personal heinousness and expect me to just nod along to get her dose of stigma-neutralizing identity spackle for the day. I think the fact that I was a mother in danger of losing my child to the state gave extra points for hijacking my approval– like stealing an ally from the camp of her own victim.
Of course I didn’t tell her what’s what. What would be the point? I’d run into this kind of “approval hijacking” many times before when advocating for abuse survivors and, if there’s nothing to be gained by triggering the psycho ire of a shithead by denying them their stigma-spackle, it’s better not to. So I just did what I always do when someone’s mask slips and I get a harrowing glimpse at the evil within: I asked wide-eyed questions and studied her like a bug (because, if you can at least learn from a creepy encounter, at least it’s not meaningless).
Here’s what I noticed: The timeline of her relationship made it clear she was a howorker of some sort though it appears the FW husband was not a lawyer (maybe a former client?). She sounded a little trance-y and daydreamy when she described her clever legal maneuvers to gain custody of her step-daughter, like she just couldn’t stop herself from talking about it. I could hear the smile in her voice as she took not-so-subtle digs at her FW husband’s ex chump and prattled about how much “better” the step-daughter was doing under her supposedly superior guidance.
But, all in all, I thought the “service” she was doing for her FW husband was a massive pickme dance using a child as a football. Even more pathetic, this woman clearly derived a sense of value from being able slice at the jugular of another woman. So, for all her law school creds and high powered position, she was, deep down, a massive loser and patriarchy dick-sucker.
Anyway, it was a series of icky encounters and observations like this over the years that made me say, “Aha” when I later read studies finding high levels of psychopathy in mate-poachers. So far I haven’t met one who wasn’t a walking abortion and sort of generally skeevy and dangerous. They are people who will always land on the wrong side of every issue.
“I could hear the smile in her voice as she took not-so-subtle digs at her FW husband’s ex chump and prattled about how much “better” the step-daughter was doing under her supposedly superior guidance.”
This is so chilling to read. As a chump that is also a mom, it’s just a terrifying thought.
And people wonder why side pieces have gotten such bad raps throughout history.
It’s for the same that unionized workers hate strike-breaking scabs, why most countries punish traitors far more harshly than they do enemy combatants and why everyone feels more deeply injured by betrayal than they do attacks from total strangers.
meant to say keep separate from PROFESSIONAL life
Hope you got better representation for your child and that it turned out well.
I got my final atty after the prior one closed her practice due to COVID. This final atty also got COVID and it turned out to be long COVID. Around the last time I met with him, he joked that he couldn’t even remember how to turn on his computer. I thought it was a joke until his para told me it was true. I suspect this impaired his ability and energy to fight for me.
Oh no, it sounds like the last lawyer should have passed your case on to someone fitter but I suppose he was so out of it he lost the insight to know he wasn’t fit.
I did get better representation and prevailed against the school’s attempt to deny FAPE for my son but be careful what you wish for as they say. The school didn’t really concede defeat and so went to the next dirty level of the district’s general campaign to deny inclusive education to disabled children: staff started physically mistreating him.
I fought every way I could but, in the end, there was no way to win against this Kafkaesque system. I ended up homeschooling but all’s well that ends well. My son is doing great now, defied every prognosis and has none of the behavior or serious mental issues he would have developed had I let him remain the district’s traumatized chew toy. He’s now preparing for college. Frankly I don’t think the school ever foresaw the possibility that some of the students they systeatically mistreated would grow up to write literary accounts of the injustices they experienced. Ha ha, fuck them. 😉
I hope he’s gotten the account published and that he named names of the district and school at least. Or left enough cluse so someone can figure it out.
I seem to recall a book by an author who had been locked in school closets due to his reading disabilities going very, very public. There’s an avid audience for these accounts, including national media.
Glad things worked out for him.
He hasn’t written that account yet but it’s wonderful enough to know he could if he wanted to.
Do you remember the title or author of the book about being secluded in school closets? Because that will go to the top of my list.
There is a reason for the stereotype lawyers = liars. You have to have moral ambiguity to feel comfortable to represent someone who has done something wrong. To presume innocence when you know they did it. Unless you only prosecute. But you have to put personal feelings aside. If you once were uncomfortable doing this, after awhile you will get desensitized and it feels ok to you. Plus you need to be a certain type of person to enjoy conflict. Most lawyers I know, (half my family are lawyers) enjoy the fight. My uncle did not so was legal aid for juvies. Sure they may be guilty but they were also dopey kids who made a mistake and home life is chaos. So your heart goes out to them. So they can do better law practices like advertising, estate planning, immigration, ect. But if they are picking divorce law which by its nature will be contentious, they must like it. And they have been on both sides. And lets face it not all lawyers are good at their jobs. But you watch law dramas and it’s all about them finding the right angle for their case, stacking the jury, basically manipulation of the situation to the best of their ability to win.
I’ve actually known several genuinely ethical attorneys who fought for what’s right and just at all costs but they either experienced spectacular, suicidal ruin or came from inherited wealth and could afford to throw away pragmatism for principle.
You are strong, you have been dealing with a human POS for years. Get tested, and use your lawyer to strategically confront her, do not show her your hand. Also, what dicks are entertaining her don’t matter anymore, they are both turds and deserve each other and I am sure they have the deep character issues like the ex.
A blood-chilling factor for male FWs is they have to test themselves for STDs and perhaps test their children for paternity. Terrifying.
Get a second lawyer’s opinion. If you can file for infidelity, and can prove hers, and you can show that she was cheating at the time you co-mingled your inheritance, you might have leverage–especially if you threaten to depose the affair partners you are aware she has–for a better settlement. So use your knowledge, but do so strategically.
Here’s my PSA: NEVER co-mingle any inheritance. Some states say that money that is inherited but never co-mingled does not count as a marital asset. I spend a lot of what I inherited on home renovations in our marital house, but I kept back some in an account in my name only, and I was able to keep it all, because where I live it was not considered a marital asset but an individual one.
Over-spackled–
I’m with the others that it would not be advisable to directly confront your STBXFW about her creepy double life and sexual incontinence but you can still– with a cool head– potentially use this information in pragmatic ways to keep from getting fleeced in divorce or having her weaponize child custody against you.
I like the fact that your current lawyer wants to keep costs down but, all the same, I’m wondering if your lawyer is a little naive about the chaos that classic FWs typically sow in divorce, settlement and custody standoffs because FWs are almost always disordered freaks. I’m also not a lawyer but I second CL’s warning that being unprepared for typical FW post-separation abuse can also end up being very expensive.
Though I hope none of this applies, just to give you an idea of what might lay ahead, here’s a very rough and incomplete list of some of the things typical STBXFWs might pull along the way as attempts to get more than their share of assets and majority or all custody or simply to drag out the process and make it as expensive as possible in order to retain their own centrality and prevent former victims from moving on with their lives:
— Doing/saying something outrageous in order to bait you into breaking minimal contact/gray rock and then falsely accusing you of stalking or assault.
–Accusing you of child abuse or being a pedophile.
— Alienating your child by convincing the child that you’re some kind of ogre.
— Stealing things of value to you that are useless to her and holding them for ransom.
— Committing smear campaigns and character assassination against you in ways that could affect your employment and social support system.
— Or, God forbid, much worse and scarier six o’clock news stuff.
I’m sure others here could add to the list of common FW sabotage tactics, particularly other guy chumps who’ve been through it. Point being that you might end up regretting pulling your punches and not using your best ammo. You may also regret not preemptively protecting yourself from these types of filthy tactics by, first and foremost, maintaining bare-bones minimal contact through a co-parenting app, then never again agreeing to be alone with her without a witness and putting security cameras on your property; changing all your device passwords and changing locks and checking your car for trackers; checking local recording laws and, if legal, recording all unavoidable interactions; securing important documents and belongings; keeping a sharp eye on financial accounts to prevent embezzlement; never letting her roam your living space unsupervised and, of course, never keeping her dirty deeds secret from people in your life (while also not going overboard and shaming on social media, etc.).
As for why FWs typically pull tactics like this, you’d probably have to do a deep dive into forensic psychology to untangle that skein but the simplest way to understand it is that cheating is, at root, a form domestic abuse and the vast majority of cheaters are criminally disordered abusers. This doesn’t mean they’ll necessarily commit literal criminal offenses but that their minds operate in a criminally disordered way. Not “mentally ill” but criminally disordered which is an important distinction because actually mentally ill people don’t have to wherewithal to be selective in who they “lose control” in front of or who they aim their crazy at (i.e.,attacking a partner behind closed doors rather than publicly raging at an armed bank guard, etc.), aren’t skilled at image management and aren’t diabolically cagey in avoiding consequences. But criminal abusers are skilled at all those things and, from the “criminally minded abuser” vantage point, you can pretty much predict just about every stunt someone like this will pull in future.
Some basic frameworks I think are helpful to predict future fuckery might be things like the Wikipedia article on “splitting” related to Cluster B personality disorders or a free forensic paper titled Denying the Darkness: Exploring the Discourses of Neutralization of Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer on the MDPI database which has an excellent and very clear explanation for how and why a wide range of serial offenders (from college exam cheats up to serial killers) preemptively rationalize their offenses by fabricating faults in their victims and then virtually spellbinding themselves to believe their own lies.
Another helpful framework is to understand that cheating, in a nutshell, is really just the brutal enforcement of one-sided monogamy. Contrary to popular psychobabble that cheating is some kind of rebellion from the shackles of monogamy, actually no one is more ferociously monogamous than most cheaters but just in a one-sided, hypocritical way. Most are like dogs with two (or more) bones who, after they think they’ve chewed everything edible off the first, will bury it to keep other dogs from getting at it and growl forever over the burial site.
In rare lucky cases, FWs might do radical “Houdini” disappearing acts but bear in mind that this may really be because, if they looked back and saw their former victims moving on to have happy lives and love again, they’d go apeshit. Think of it as a “stay out of jail” strategy. But most are going to keep circling back around to cause mayhem. I think that, without understanding that “two bones” principle above, many chumps can end up surprised and blindsided by the intensity of post-separation abuse by cheaters who had previously given every indication of wanting to escape and “be free,” etc. But, when it comes down to it, it’s not so much fun for disordered freaks to “run away” if no one is chasing chasing them. Most FWs would prefer it if former victims simply curled up into inert, despairing fetal positions and cried cheaters’ names forever.
That’s why FWs tend to drag out divorce and try to make it as miserable, disruptive and scarring as possible. It’s why many seem to show up again like creepy bad pennies the second their former victims are starting to heal and form new attachments. It’s also why, prior to separation and after, cheaters tend to do everything they can to grind down and destroy the self esteem and optimism of their chumps– because, deep down, they hope that chumps will be too crushed, pessimistic and insecure to ever move on and trust or love again. Abusers, being lazy gits who prefer minimal effort, are hedging their bets that their prey will bury themselves in other words.
Anyway, being prepared for the coming shitstorm and not having it happen is always better than having it happen and not being prepared. In the meantime, keep being mighty. The better life you and your child deserve is waiting at the other end.
Your actual lawyer, the one who specializes in family law (divorce) and works in the court system where you live, listened to “all of these issues” and told you that you, and presumably also your children, would be best off if you divorce her on grounds of irreconcilable differences (that’s ‘no fault’).
Your question seems to be whether you can safely do a no-fault divorce while also, separately, letting your wife know that you know she cheated. MY question is, why aren’t you asking your lawyer that question? Because CL is mighty and cuts through the BS of cheater-talk and chump spackling, but (as she regularly reminds us) she is not a lawyer, and she certainly isn’t YOUR lawyer. CL can’t tell you whether it would be good for your divorce settlement or whether it would make your FW flip out and drag out the proceedings (or worse, try to get leverage by accusing YOU of wrongdoing).
If you’re not asking your own lawyer because you’re afraid she’s going to tell you no and you really wanna, that’s absolutely a screaming signal that you should re-direct the urge to unload to a therapist or a good friend.
If you’re not asking your own lawyer because you don’t trust your lawyer, then get a second opinion.
(Full disclosure: I am not a divorce lawyer, but I am a lawyer, and one of the biggest messes we lawyers have to try and clean up is clients who decided hearing “no” from us wasn’t any fun, and so they ignored us or asked their brother-in-law or their book club friends or ChatGPT and took that advice.)
Over Spackled,
Listen to ChumpLady. She knows of what she speaks.
I found the sentiment of “If it feels good, don’t do it” to be such a challenge. My STBX was bold as brass, and just did so much that was so over the top, and he got away with it for so long because I was conditioned to defer to him in fear.
Once that fog of “deferring” was lifted, I found myself very angry about what he had gotten away with. And I would have loved to do something about it. But I held on to “if it feels good, don’t do it” for all I was worth and I really think it has served me.
I kept my side of the street clean, and that is something he can never take away from me. I can be proud of that. And a happy side effect is that I didn’t do anything that could ever come back to bite me in the ass. I will never be seen as the one that was getting messy and acting crazy. He kept that title all to himself.
Now, lest you think I’m perfect (LOL), I often remind myself that I could play those cards at any time if I really, really wanted to. Almost like I am not saying I won’t ever do it, more just “not yet”. But the more time that passes, the less I care about it. And that may be the case for you too. You are still in the early days.
And sometimes I do a little of what I call “revenge fantasizing”. Like “oh,wouldn’t it be hilarious if I shared this screenshot of him screaming at me on text via social media so that the people he cries to can see how he actually treats me?” Sometimes just thinking about it, laughing, then moving on is the best way to handle it.
Re Legal issues. Every case is differemt, even just the state you are in matters. Where I am, the judge won’t care that he cheated. If I could prove what he spent on the AP, yes, I could get that money back in a settlement. But for me? It wasn’t worth the cost of a forensic accountant. For many it could be quite worth it. Also, I am dealing with an abusive, disordered person and my therapist advised to try to keep him thinking that the legal aspect was as amicable as possible, to avoid him going into attack mode as he is exactly the type that would then potentially drag it out forever and fight tooth and nail over everything. He is better paid than me, by a lot. He could afford the long battle, I can’t. This strategy worked for me. I got a decent settlement. It was very even, so HE also got a fair settlement which feels a bit unfair to me, given the circumstances. But in my state, that is what the courts aim for, an equitable split. So if I wanted to go after more, it would have been an uphill battle. And it would have cost so much more in legal fees. And in the end there would be no guarantee of getting any better of a settlement than I did. I could have wasted so much time, money and mental health just to end up with the same or lesser of a settlement.
Lastly, I want to say that my FW has not run off to the happily ever after he expected. Things ended with his AP pretty much as soon as he moved out of the marital home, this left him in an apartment he doesn’t like, where the rent has already been increased and will liklely do so yearly. His oldest child refuses to see him or speak to him. He found a lovely girlfriend and got serious with her, only to break up just before their one year together mark. He no longer has my friendship, something his entitled ass assumed he’d have forever regardless of how he treated me.
Things for him are not good. He is not happy. And I share this with you to say? I don’t enjoy any of it. His life went to shit so completely that I feel almost bad for him. It’s not quite sympathy because he is where he is entirely due to the poor choices he has made. And you’d think given what he put me through I would be gleefully laughing like a villain over here. But it actually makes me feel icky to laugh. It’s kind of a weird place to be, because I recognize that these are the consequences of his actions, and I dont feel bad enough to try to be his friend or anything. I just don’t enjoy the show, if that makes sense? I share this to say that as much as you want to confront her? It might not actually make you feel any better. You might feel just as good for being able to hold it back and keep it in your pocket for future use. (And if that future use never comes, that is ok too) As ChumpLady said, they NEVER feel bad. The “gotcha”monents I had with my STBX were so unsatisfying because he never felt any remorse.
SoOI,
If I may say so, the empathy that you show towards someone who harmed you does you great credit.
You are clearly a very good and well balanced person.
LFTT
Thank you.
I have certainly had plenty of non-charitable thoughts about him. And like I said, I’ve dreamt up but not acted on all kinds of revenge plots.
I shared that part about not enjoying his downfall because it absolutely shocked me. I actually said to a friend “I can’t even ENJOY this because it is too much and so bad!” I figure, new Chumps like Over Spackled might benefit from knowing that the validation they are looking for might not actually feel good. I thought it would, and it didn’t. But until I lived through it, I never would have believed it.
I do get a kick out of some of the dumb things he says/does though. And those moments I can heartily enjoy.
Awhile back, we had a conversation via text. he was looking to rile me up, and lucky for me, it was a particularly “meh” day. I gave zero kibbles. I was very much over it in the moment. This must have bothered him a lot, so much that he wanted to tell someone. So he took a screensht of the short conversation, and sent it to….. ME. He sent my own convo to ME accidentally. He then wrote, “I was talking to Bill (his friend). Sorry” Then he replied again to say “and just so you know, I changed your contact name to that to discourage me from figting with you over text”.
I had not noticed the contact name. I went back to look. It was listed as “Unimportant Loser”.
So to sum up, he tried to start a fight on text, it didn’t work, and it bothered him so much he had to tell his friend, but he inadvertently alerted ME to this fact by sending it to me instead of Bill. Then he realized that in sending me the conversation, I would now see that he has me listed as a nasty name, so he brought attention to it by making an excuse. But I had NOT noticed it and would never have if HE didn’t point it out. Then he makes an excuse that doesn’t even make sense. He frequently reaches out trying to start a fight, so the nasty name is NOT working. Also, I NEVER take the bait. I haven’t responded to anything like that since maybe last summer. So it was pointless for him to even try to start the fight in the first place. He ruined his own day and let me see all his foolishness for no good reason.
THIS kind of stuff? I do laugh at like a villain. Just him being a complete clown.
If I learned anything in my travels, it’s that bullies typically get their due and sometimes in such cruel and nauseating ways you don’t even get the satisfaction of enjoying the schadenfreude. Not always but often enough to make an impression.
I learned this as a kid after several classmates who’d brutally bullied me in primary school ended up dead, one lost a leg in a train mishap, another went to prison for drugs and, about a decade after high school, one ended up all over the headlines for drug and sex trafficking while running a private S&M sex club in his Manhattan penthouse and for being consequently disinherited by his rich industrialist family.
Ouch. What really brought home the ethics lesson is that this wasn’t happening in the hood but in a fancy, tree-lined suburb with very high median wealth where the odds of youthful demise and ending up in prison were relatively low. It left me with this idea that it’s terribly dangerous to be a shithead.
Because of this, whenever I was unfairly messed with as an adult (including by the FW I was married to), my instant, knee-jerk reaction was to cringe in anticipation of gruesome fallout.
FWIW, my own mother always sided with bullies and treated me “less than” because I didn’t act like them. According to her, I was both super weak and super immature because I was unable to employ the same strategies (and was always trying to be genuine and ethical instead).
I’ve been no contact for almost two decades by now, but it somehow still hurts and makes me doubt myself. However, as you pointed out, these bullies were probably far less “smart” or “strong” or “mature” than my mother claimed – they simply reminded her of herself.
Sounds like the apple fell far from the tree and kept rolling farther away over the years.
My father ended up completely different than his family too and there was a social theory I once heard about called the “bulletproof child” that I thought partly explained why. The idea is that, despite largely negative role models and traumatic upbringings, some children nevertheless mysteriously develop deeply rooted ethics and positive traits. Researchers speculated that these children may have had at least one positive adult influence who, even if only brief and passing, may have left a profound enough impression to inspire emulation.
I know in my dad’s case there were a few positive adult influences in his otherwise terrifying childhood but these were so fleeting that it’s still a mystery how he ended up the way he did and I have to imagine it has something to do with disposition and intelligence. He somehow raised himself and it sounds like you did as well. Probably not incidentally, he was also a very early practitioner of “NC” so I suspect that’s a key thing in radically breaking negative family patterns: one must radically break from those toxic individuals as well. A brave and positive thing but at the very steep price of feeling orphaned.
My uncle (my mother’s brother and the only uncle I had) went NC with the entire family while I was still a child. At the time, he was already much older than I was when I went NC myself, and my family villainized him for doing it. I had rarely met him before he went NC and was never in touch with him again afterwards. Yet, his actions had left a lasting impression on me, I believe.
It sounds like your uncle was the ground-breaker in that sense. My dad also set the precedent by cutting off his dysfunctional clan and I think it gave me “permission” to make clean breaks when needed. In fact, I was always baffled when bystanders would question my doing this here and there or suggest I lacked empathy or whatever. It confused me a bit until a friend put it bluntly, saying that the reason she refused to “eat shit for breakfast lunch and dinner” and cut toxic people off at the knees was so she didn’t end up becoming so beaten up and desensitized that she’d be callous towards innocent people.
I think in my case, my decision was – at least partly – also driven by fear. I’m not sure whether my mother would have been capable of murder, but she always made me feel that “her” version of the Christian God would have wanted me dead because I was (supposedly) so inferior. When I went NC (in my late 20s), it felt like a matter of life and death, to be honest. I’ll probably never find out whether that was pure paranoia on my part or not. Of course it is even more difficult to explain this reason to other people than if it is “only” about being disgusted with toxic behavior.
If you want to clear up the question of whether you were just “overreacting,” “catastrophizing” and being “paranoid” in going NC with your mother, I can assure you that, if you were to take a little reading sabbatical and delve into the annals of forensic psychology related to “victim-blaming” attitudes and “bystander mentality,” any doubts you have about your choice to go NC would be neutralized and this would probably bring you peace of mind.
I don’t mean delve into pop-psych guru vlogs about narcissism but the hardcore academic research on criminal behavior, mentality and belief systems. This is because forensics/criminal psychology– more than regular psych and psychoanalysis and certainly more than popular psychology– is concrete and tied to actual outcomes and statistics, meaning that psychological studies of specific attitudes and belief systems are drawn from people who committed specific crimes and these cases are then compared against samples who didn’t commit those crimes.
Cutting to the chase, I think what you would probably learn from wading around in forensic studies of “bystander mentality” is that people who hold certain victim-blaming attitudes tend to be unsafe in a statistical sense. Basically they’re statistically more likely to do awful, harmful, even criminal things to the people around them. In other words, your vague fears that your mother might– given the opportunity– do you harm might not be so “crazy” but actually rational.
Take the issue of “rape myth acceptance.” If you do a Google search of “rape myth acceptance” (“RMA”) + anything and everything awful in human nature such as “support for authoritarianism,” “racism,” “infidelity” or “criminal inclination,” it appears that people who hold false beliefs that blame victims and excuse perpetrators are patently unsafe in many ways.
I had to read a lot of research along these lines when training as an advocate for survivors of domestic abuse in college because “victim-blaming” plays a significant role in social and legal response to survivors and relates to the obstacles they encounter in seeking social support or justice. This is why “bystander attitudes/beliefs” are a crucial field of study in victimology.
Anyway, aside from my dad’s initial role-modeling of the benefits of going NC, I think many of the things I learned from reading social research related to victim-blaming have taken a lot of the second-guessing and self-doubt out of decisions I later made to cut certain people out of my life and act preemptively before the worst happened.
Bottom line is that statistics are about odds. And the odds are– in a peer-reviewed, scientifically statistical sense– on the side that people with deeply-held, victim-blaming or perpetrator-coddling views like your mother can be very unsafe in many measurable ways.
Maybe we can all take a page from professional gamblers in avoiding statistical risks, particularly because the stakes in social relationships can often be far higher and more life-and-death than mere money.
Your ex’s “mistake” doesn’t sound accidental at all. He texted you on purpose because he was so desperate for a reaction. Glad you denied him one.
I did consider that possibility. The best part is that this simply didn’t rais a reaction from me. Sometimes he pulls stunts that DO upset me, and then I have to make sure that I don’t respond. This time, it took no effort. It was just a very real reaction of “meh” on mypart. I am definitely not fully at “meh” all the time, but I pop in for a visit frequently.
“Unimportant Loser” cracks me up, I guess because I remember middle school. If you are so unimportant why does he keep texting?
It’s all so funny.
On the one hand, that is a peek behind the mask, because he sure did treat me like an unimportant loser by having the affair.
But also, yes, if I am so unimportant, then it should be easy to leave me alone. Yet he persists.
I did consider how fun it would be to reply “Oh that’s so funny, that is how I have YOU listed in MY phone too!” Of course, I just have him in as his name, because I take screen captures of his harrassment in case I ever need it for court, so gain keeping my side of the street clean, I don’t need a judge to see me listing him as “FuckWit Extraordinaire”
It’s all so funny.
On the one hand, that is a peek behind the mask, because he sure did treat me like an unimportant loser by having the affair.
But also, yes, if I am so unimportanmt, then it should be easy to leave me alone. Yet he persists.
I did consider how fun it would be to reply”Oh that’s so funny, that is how I have YOU listed in MY phone too!”
He’s projecting. He’s the unimportant loser, and it’s what he fears the most because he clearly couldn’t handle you ignoring him.
I hope this hasn’t posted twice. I am in Texas. I was informed by my attorney and his senior partner that the judges are pretty much numb to infidelity and pornography. That every divorce has These elements and they don’t care
The only way this influences final settlement is if there are minor children who are being harmed so that may be an element of your case
I was encouraged to file in supportability, which is basically a reconcilable differences
Our children were grown, but for me keeping relatively quiet one I was able to have peace and quiet in the home while he moved out and we went to mediation. He never went to trial. It kept it easier. The attorney said I could always change my charges if I wished. Bottom line as you know what she did and the ultimate satisfaction is just getting away and letting her live her ridiculous life while you rebuild yours. Because you have young children, however it might be worth that second opinion to see if you could influence custody, and how you feel about her having that much influence on your kids lives. Best of luck.
I am not a lawyer either but if the funds to pay for the house mortgage came from your fathers estate does it make sense that part would be split? Where I live estate/inheritance was excluded from martial assets which *could* mean that part should go back to you and the remainder should be split. If the $ amount was big enough that might be something to double check with your lawyer.
Again, not a lawyer. But I think the fact that the inheritance was used towards the down payment on a house which IS marital property would count as “mingling” the assets. I think in many cases the way you keep your inheritance post divorce is by NEVER mingling it to begin with. That is why someone above suggested keeping any inheritance money in a separate account in only your name.
This is not always practical. I didn’t have an inheritance. But had I? I for sure would have wanted to use it towards our down payment on the house. I suppose at that time, oe could ask for a post-nup stating that in the event of a divorce, they would get made whole on that amount. But hindsight is 20/20.
That said, she could still ask for that money back in her divorce proceedings. If he isn’t legally bound to give it to her, it can still be used as a bargaining chip.
I don’t think any of us here are attorneys, but if there are any amongst us Speak Up! lol.
So from what I have read, if you are in a “fault” state (which is very few states) then things like this are much easier. BUT, having said that, most judges take marital conduct into account, so if one spouse is cheating, then they lean towards the spouse that has not been cheating when making decisions. But this is totally discretionary from judge to judge. But most decent people don’t approve of cheaters and their behavior. It’s not a “you get everything and shame on her” situation, but they tend to favor the chump a little. But no guarantees, of course. That’s just life.
If it can get you more of the settlement, go for it. Even if the litigation uses up that extra portion, it would be worth it in my book, just so that she doesn’t get it, because, SCREW HER and the cheating wagon she rode in on! She can ride her cheating ass out on that same wagon. BYE!
Over-Spackled,
You know what I’m excited for?
When you crush this idiot in court. (Seriously, can we come watch?)
You’re in a very hard place right now. We’ve all been there one way or another. Gods know I was. My recursive thought was “she is doing all of this and I get stuck with the check.” Not so, it turns out!
Yes, there was a rough patch with all of that in there. I regret showing her the level of emotion and trust that I did in between D-Day and when she actually left. Our fearless leader is absolutely right-this is the Cake she is looking for. Your soon to be ex is abusive, full stop. Give her as little to feed off of as possible.
Things have been a lot better since she has left. Still digging myself out of that financial hole but I don’t live under the gaslight anymore-the sun (well, moon, really) is so much brighter and better.)
Time heals all wounds…and misconceptions. My own feelings of inadequacy notwithstanding, it also dissolved the notion that she was going to get the last laugh. I am at full No Contact and have mine blocked on pretty much everything. The information that gets back to me about her just makes me laugh. It’s pretty clear that she and Shmoopie didn’t last-it’s almost as if she’s a lot less attractive when there isn’t somebody running around paying her bills and doing her chores or something.
I got a quantum of solace recently with mine-apparently, she had a meltdown because she missed the cat that she left behind. He slept on me last night. He was very warm.
Yours is in for a serious reality check-I doubt any of the people that have attached to the idiot are going to be too keen on help her raise the kids. For some reason, Other Men tend to evaporate when they find out that there’s a lot more to this person than getting strange on the side.
She literally fucked around and will now FIND OUT.
You do not have to embarrass her-she has already done enough to do that to herself. And she will have plenty to have to explain away-not the least of which to your children. That day is coming. You may have a hard lesson coming concerning who was complicit-it is best to cut those people away as well.
We get our revenge around here by surviving and moving on. I GUARANTEE it gets easier (but never quite easy.)
Your obligations to HER are now over. They ended when she betrayed you. Point blank. Period. She really should have thought about that before she betrayed you. Take responsibility for YOUR kids, not her. She lost her “you” privileges. She doesn’t get them back. She has proved that she will do it all again and with a smile on her face if you let her.
Personally-I’d amend the divorce to be about infidelity if you can. I think THAT is the best way to confront her. You have evidence. We will see how confrontational she REALLY is during something called “discovery” when she has been caught-red handed and pants down.
WE ARE HERE FOR YOU!
She is LYING to you.
She is keeping SECRETS.
About an extremely important agreement, WHICH SHE BROKE.
That’s MORE than enough proof.
❤️
Focus on the LYING and KEEPING SECRETS.
Cheaters and side pieces like to play word games with the definition of the word “cheating”.
If they’re keeping a relationship secret and lying about it, they shouldn’t be in it.
Keeping the focus on whether they are LYING and KEEPING SECRETS neutralizes the word game BS about “cheating” and clarifies the water they like to keep muddy.
CL is right. Use as leverage with your lawyer. Cheaters love long drawn out vicious divorces. She will accuse you of abuse, try and get sole custody, take you to court over and over. I would slam her now. You need to go on the offensive with her. Not defense. This will get nasty.
I agree a second opinion is in order legally. Maybe your lawyer has no experience with the disordered.
Confronting her is pointless. She will never admit what she did, even if you shove the evidence under her nose. She’ll deny the reality in front of her face, accuse you of lying, you’re crazy, you’re wrong, etc. Oh, but if she did cheat, you made her do it and you deserved it. She will never take responsibility and she will never be sorry.
Worse, she’s dangerous. She’s already physically attacked you, and you’re going to court with her right now to split assets. Not only is confronting her pointless, not only will you lose your mind trying to get her to confess, but she’s already a volatile person. Don’t poke the dragon.
I agree with everyone here it’s worth getting a second legal opinion. If evidence of the affair can help you in court, it’s worth strategizing that with a lawyer. Let your lawyer handle that though and let your ex be surprised in court. Giving her a heads up on anything, even letting her know you know about the affairs, is shooting yourself in the foot.
“Let your lawyer handle that though and let your ex be surprised in court.”
This is an EXCELLENT point. I am sure it is hard for Over-Spackled to keep his mouth shut, because the info he is sittig on is infuriating. But oh, for it to be a bomb dropped in court? That is delicious and so much more satisfying than any digs he could toss at her on a personal level.
She won’t care that you know what a scum she is, but if she thinks you DON’T know? And she finds out IN court? That right there is a thing of beauty. Bonus points if she didn’t warn her lawyer and THEY are thrown off theire game.
Hey everyone! Over-Spackled and Out of this Marriage here!
Have only had enough time to register here, but I’m VERY MUCH looking forward to reading Tracy’s response, and to all of your feedback and thoughts as well.
Getting the email from Tracy that she had read and responded to my email absolutely made my day.
Thanks to everyone here for taking the time to read my overly long letter, and for offering your thoughts as well!
Over & Out!
Well done for starting the process of extricating yourself from this abusive relationship. You are showing that you will not be abused or demeaned. You have marked out a pathway to Meh and sane parenthood. All of that awaits you sooner than it feels. Well done!
With the evidence of the affairs , it might be useful to ask yourself at every single step of its consolidation and potential relay to others:
1. Am I doing this to, in same way get her to ‘see’/take account/get others to ‘see’ or hold her to account?
OR
2. Am I doing this to strategically advance my interests (that have been denied me and trodden over for so long). Namely my financial interests and my commitment to having a strong parental presence and custody time with my children?
Never, ever yield to the temptations of point one, always coolly, calmly provide the information to savvy professionals only (not her) for point 2.
That gets to the issue of “savvy” professionals.
A savvy, nuanced lawyer might have the affair info quietly tucked up their strategic sleeve to subtly reference at the right moment, to squeeze out the best possible outcomes for you.
It doesn’t necessarily mean that the info becomes the central character in formal affidavit material. Maybe/maybe not.
Maybe it’s alluded to subtly during mediation negotiations by your lawyer, or relayed ‘informally’ lawyer to lawyer. You get the idea.
Your representative sounds like she’s nervous of ‘things blowing up’ and she wants to save you that angst and cost.
But you can perhaps advise her you’re seeking some consideration of how this info might best be deployed to help some skilled pulling of the levers – behind the scenes if necessary.
I would also get a second legal opinion because why not. It can’t hurt and might help.
Your legal situation sounds a bit like a game of poker (not that I play poker).
You want her to be feeling as nervy as hell about the full extent of the cards you hold and how and when they’re going to be deployed by your reps.
That’s the only thing that works with a disordered/narcy type. Fear/self interest and image management. Those are the drivers. Not shame/ accountability/moral catharsis or fairness.
For those reasons never discuss with her direct.
I wish I had known this with FW 1 particularly.
I had a good friend who was a chump. In the middle of divorcing her FW, her best friend had her repeat a mantra whenever she felt a bit wobbly: “keep the house. Keep the kids”.
That’s all she had to remember “keep the house. Keep the kids”.
The simplicity of that got her thru.
Finally, just for the next little while, I’d recommend keeping your powder dry and not dating. No contact with her , no dating (until the ink is dry). But lots of time with your children, family and friends .
Render yourself unassailable.
Good luck! You’re doing well. 🌸
I absolutely used my newfound chump knowledge for my own power. After 3 decades of eX having all the knowledge (thus all the power) it was very nice to use my knowledge of his, erm, indiscretions, for my own benefit during divorce proceedings. It sure feels nice to have power over my own life again.
On the technical side of things, I sometimes wonder how many chumps in the world discovered the truth and finally obtained the power that comes from knowledge, as a result of syncing iphone-iPads. This wonder of “the cloud” is one way tech has genuinely helped Humanity.