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Dear Chump Lady, She’s a cake eater. And gay.

Hi Chump Lady,

I am a lesbian and have been in a relationship with another woman since March of 2013. In June, I found out that this woman, “Sally,” is actually married and has been married since 2010.

I confronted Sally about it and she told me that she married a good friend of hers but that she was not attracted to him or to men and knows that it will not work out. She claimed that they are separated and, additionally, he lives in a separate state and knows she is gay. I didn’t quite feel comfortable dating a married woman and expressed that to her. She said she would have the divorce taken care of by the end of the year, because she wanted to build a life with me and is gay. I then told her that I loved her and trusted that she was being sincere. I did say that by the New Year, if she was still married, I would not be able to be with her.

Fast forward and I leave out of town in December for a month. Granted, when I left things with Sally were fine and going pretty well. We did occasionally argue, but we seem to recover and bounce back afterwards and implement any changes that we think will help the relationship. When I returned, Sally was being very distant and strange. I knew something was going on and I asked her about it.

She confessed that she was seeing a therapist and wasn’t sure where we stood. I was blindsided. I questioned if we were a great fit months earlier and expressed that to her, only to have her reassure me at that time that our love was real and we were lucky to have found each other, and more blah blah. So, I was very hurt, but told her that I would wait until she decided what she wanted and that I would like to work on our relationship. I am aware, like her, that some things are not healthy and need to be changed. (Example: I can throw tantrums and act like a child; she tends to scream and swear.) She told me she didn’t want the added pressure of the holidays and that she needed to think because she wasn’t sure.

On Christmas, I wanted to see her and she told me she was in the suburbs with her best friend because she didn’t want to be alone and was spending the night there. She said she wanted to see me on Friday and that she loved me.

I wanted to surprise her and leave a gift by her door so I headed to do that. When I arrived to her place, the lights and television were on. To my complete surprise, Sally was at home with her husband. Talk about betrayed, blindsided and lied to. I now wish I would have acted in a mature fashion and walked away. However, I knocked on the door and was pretty furious. She didn’t want me there and was trying to push me out. Clearly, her husband had no clue who I was and wanted to “take care of me” by placing his hands on me while she did nothing. Granted, from his point of view he probably thought I was a random person trying to get in and was harassing HIS wife. WTF???

I wanted answers from her as to why she felt compelled to lie to me. She wasn’t willing to talk so I emailed some of her friends the following day for answers (yes, another childish move I wish I could take back). She finally confessed that she felt that I was emotionally unstable and to avoid conflict, she would rather not say things because of my reaction. She said she was going to tell me things on Friday when we planned to meet. I still don’t think that justifies lies. I am left curious about what she was going to tell me on Friday. Were they actually meeting to get the divorce settled on Christmas? I would have not been thrilled that she was meeting with him but could have understood if she needed her own closure and last Christmas with him.

So, now it’s 2014 and time for those resolutions! I keep going back to the good days of the relationship and blaming myself for not giving her a safe zone to tell me things. I wonder if my moodiness contributed to her lies. I even miss her and want her back, which sounds pretty awful. I wanted to believe she was being sincere and the relationship was true. I need to be good to myself and learn and grow from this so that I can apply it to my next relationship.

Any insights and advice?

PS. No sugar coating needed! Just the raw truth and honest feedback!


Dear Stephanie,

Well, I would give you advice, but you have to wait until Friday. Nope, hang on, I can’t give you advice and it’s all your fault because you’re emotionally unstable. Now torture yourself imagining what my advice might be.

Yeah, that makes me sound like an asshole, doesn’t it? Connect the dots, Steph — Sally is a manipulative piece of shit. Gay, straight, confused — she’s a cake eater. She’s doing all the classic things cheaters do — lying, blame shifting, juggling partners like bean bags. And you’re a chump doing all the classic things chumps do — asking yourself what you did to make her this way, believing her bullshit, spackling like mad.

Take heart, Stephanie, we ALL believe whoppers. We’re chumps. That’s what we do. But I gotta tell you that people don’t spend a warm, cozy Christmas together, toasting marshmallows, hanging their stockings by the fire with care… discussing the details of their divorce.

Oh, and no one needs “closure.” You know what says closure? No contact. Actually filing for divorce says closure. Let the lawyers work out the details, or answer the occasional unpleasant logistical email. Not much is required of you when you’re ACTUALLY breaking up.

Cake eaters? Those people get together to rehash their relationship, or fuck for old times sake — they just enjoy stringing people along. And chumps do the pick me dance, and listen to the bullshit. Why? Because they’re high on hopium. Cheaters will drag this shit out as long as they can — it’s kibbles. Don’t you want to step up your game to keep them?

So, her presence with him on Christmas signals that’s she’s very much in a relationship, no matter what she says.

Stephanie, why would you tolerate one second of “she was in the suburbs with her best friend because she didn’t want to be alone and was spending the night there.” 

What are you? Chopped liver? If she thought she was your girlfriend WHY would she worry about being alone on Christmas of all nights? Poor sausage. Poor her. Fortunately she has a “best friend” to save her from her dreadful aloneness. That’s your cue to perform the pick me dance. I’m here! Pick me! What about YOU being alone on Christmas? Did she consider THAT?

I’m glad you knocked on her door. But I wish you’d taken it further and told the husband you’ve been having an affair with his wife for the better part of the year. It’s still not too late to do that, by the way. I very much encourage you to tell the poor sap, and direct him here for support. Don’t assume they’re getting divorced. Don’t believe a word she told you. He’s a chump.

Please don’t miss this awful woman. Get angry. She lied to you and she blame shifted her misdeeds back on to you.

She finally confessed that she felt that I was emotionally unstable and to avoid conflict, she would rather not say things because of my reaction.

Classic cheater move. The problem here isn’t What She Did, it is Your Reaction to It.

So you want to grow from this? Here are lessons you can apply to your next relationship:

1) Anyone who waits three months to tell you they are married is a colossal jerk and should be dumped immediately. There are those who date while separated (no judgement there, some places it can takes years to divorce), and there are those who are cheaters. Honest people  have this information on their dating profile, or tell you on the first date. NOT months later. The people who conceal their marital status are cheaters.

2) If find you out that someone has a spouse, months in to the relationship, and you stick around? (Oh but I’m in too deep!) You’ve just signed up to be an affair partner. They lied to you about their marital status — assume they’re going to lie about everything else. You cannot trust this person. You were a chump until June. After June, you were the other woman. I know you took her at her word that she was in the process of a divorce, but you should’ve asked for evidence. Red flags should’ve been flying that she concealed her marital status from you.

3) You don’t make people disordered. That’s on THEM. Your “moodiness” did not “contribute to her lies.” No, she’s a practiced liar all on her own without your help. Maybe my squidgy midsection caused the polar vortex. Maybe my curly hair makes my husband absentminded. Maybe my inflamed sinuses cause traffic delays.

You know why chumps think such stupid things? That we MAKE people do things, that we have these codependent super powers? Because it saves us from concluding the truth — we don’t control this, and the disordered person doesn’t give jack shit about us.

Yes she lied to you, no she didn’t love you — because loving people do NOT behave this way, no this isn’t your fault (but your chumpiness is, join the club).

Please stay no contact with this terrible woman and her friends. But do tell her husband, and answer his questions, then bow out of the drama. What he does with the knowledge of his wife’s affair is his business, but he should know.

Stephanie, work on that picker. Next time someone waves a red flag — put down the spackle and PAY ATTENTION. Good women are out there — she’s not one of them. You deserve better.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • There are those who date while separated (no judgement there, some places it can takes years to divorce),

    I think I have some ‘judgements’ related to dating somebody who is separated or dating while separated, and they are these:

    1. Why date somebody who isn’t divorced? It’s extra baggage, and you don’t have to do it. There are plenty of single people out there, and I’d rather be single than deal with somebody else’s unresolved baggage .

    2. Why date when you are not yet divorced? On top of possible legal ramifications (judges tend to not look at this favorably), who exactly are you dating? Single people with healthy boundaries tend to be more selective than that.

    • Well, TH I agree with you, except that some states — like Virginia, you have to have physical separation for a year and ONE DAY (which motherfucker tacked on the extra day out of spite I want to know) before you can even **file.** My first divorce took nearly two years to be complete.

      I don’t think anyone should have to put their life on hold for years waiting. That said, I tend to agree with you — we’re wobblier than we think. And the best use of time is to heal up, and work on yourself. Still, no one should have to spend two years in celibacy because of some right-wing law maker, IMO. Or have dating held against you AFTER you have a separation agreement in place.

      In all things honesty. That’s the best policy, IMO. If you’ve got separation baggage — get it out there. Probably bad prospects for long-term. A fling? No.

      • Speaking as a single person (yay), it still sounds like an excuse for a single-person to have poor boundaries to me. I am quite certain my response to finding out somebody I went out on a date with was not divorced would be something like, “Well, it was nice to meet you, and I hope things work out for you, and give me a call when you are single”. Full stop.

        It’s not my job to be somebody’s emotional air bag, and the last thing I want to be drawn into is possible legal entanglements with a spiteful estranged spouse. It’s totally unnecessary risk, and it sets the personal boundaries bar kind of low as to what you are willing to accept, IMO.

        And that brings up the all important, assertive dating question, “So, why are you single?”. Here’s a chance for your date to be honest…, or not. And if not, that will be a bridge you cross (and hopefully burn) if you get to it.

        • I’m not interested in dating right now because being single is just so awesome. After over 20 years of being a marriage police, maneuvering pick-me-dance moves that put Dancing With the Stars to shame, and honing my co-dependent skills, being single is a welcome relief that I’m not yet ready to give up. It’s been quite nice to have peace and quiet and reflecting on my life, and doing things for me. Feeling more and more emotionally healthy each day is reward in itself. When the time comes when I want to date again, I would definitely not go out with a separated man, especially in my no-fault state where a divorce can be final in a week.

      • “Still, no one should have to spend two years in celibacy because of some right-wing law maker, IMO. Or have dating held against you AFTER you have a separation agreement in place.”

        I think thats the most important aspect for it to be ok IMO: that there is a seperation AGREEMENT IN PLACE.

        Just like in Stephanie’s case, you cant exactly take someone’s word you just met. People can lie easily. Its easy to say your seperated. Hell, cheaters can get mad at their SO and decide in their own minds thath they are “seperated” from them. What they dont mention is that they dont see it for long term… its temporary from them and their SO doesnt even know.

        • Well, to play Devil’s advocate, people can be pieces of shit and be divorced. My cheating ex was divorced.

          However, I met my husband two weeks before his divorce was final. Going on four years, happily married.

          • Are you implying that if you had said, “Give me a call when you are single”, he might not have called in two weeks? LOL.

            I keep thinking, “Where’s the fire?” and “We show people what we are willing to put up with”, and–as I know you are aware–there are some folks who are quite attuned to exploiting weak boundaries.

            • Well, I’m sure he would’ve except he lived in Texas and I lived in Pennsylvania and we met at Jazzfest in New Orleans. Logistics. Honestly, I never expected to marry the man! (Happy I did, of course.) You never know where these things will lead.

              You can say “Where’s the fire?” I can say “Be open to the world of possibilities.” The important thing is, as you point out, boundaries. At the first sign that he was anything less than a gentleman, I could dump him. And he could dump me. And we’d dust ourselves off and be fine. That’s the ticket — to know worth. To know that you have choices.

              • In counseling whenever I’d say “I had to do X” my counselor would say “You CHOSE to do X.” After a few sessions of this it started to irritate me.
                Looking back, being a mother to two very young sons who were sick with asthma, not being able to keep my job because I had to care for the kids, it didn’t seem like I had a choice but to put up with shitty behavior from the ex. The thought of losing my kids or trying to support them on my own seemed impossible. Wish I’d have had access to back then.

          • I think how a previous marriage can affect how long it takes to be ready to date. In my case, D-day was preceded by several years of growing distance (daily clashing over matters related to the kids and finances and running the house, lack of shared interests, separate vacations, etc.). Although I had NO IDEA of the cheating, by the time D-day came and I learned that the cheating had been going on for at least a decade, I was able to disengage more quickly than I would’v been had I felt in a relationship with an attentive or even *present* partner. Learning about the cheating even explained so much about the distance and conflict, given that I’d been getting emotional leftovers for years and gas-lighted, to boot. In a way, it reminded me of how it feels to pick a piece of fruit when it’s ripe to fall off the tree. Just . . . ready. Was I ready to be back in a close daily relationship within the year? No. But I was ready to date within that time. And that turned into something more the following year.

            So, I agree wholeheartedly with CL: So long as you can enforce your boundaries, be open to life’s possibilities. I had 25 years of my life stolen by a cheating ex. That’s enough.

            • “how a previous marriage can affect”

              Meant, “how a previous marriage ENDED can affect”

            • Nomar, I agree with you. After d-day, I felt like I had suffered enough for the past 20 years. I was so tired of being on the outside of life, looking in. I really just wanted to go out and have fun. Like you describe, in the final years of my marriage, there really was no partnership or intimacy. I was trying to find a way out of it even before d-day (XH= raging alcoholic).

              I started dating as soon as the separation agreement was in effect and I was settled into my own place in a new town. I had zero communication with XH except through lawyers. I was honest about my situation to all that I met, and found that most of those that I met online were pretty fresh out of their last relationship as well. It worked out well for me, but that may be atypical.

          • I personally see no problem with it IF its a sure thing and its not a “trial run” seperation. But I guess that would be hard to truly figure out.

        • I agree – it depends on the type of Separation. Separation Agreement in place? No problem, unless you’re still confused and suffering from the breakup.

          My STBX is “separated,” but he was dating before he was separated and continues to date. The ink was barely dry on her third divorce before the Ho-Bag was sniffing my STBX’s balls (and she may have been sniffing them before she was even divorced for all I know). I’m separated, no separation agreement in place, as I fled for my sanity’s sake, and I am not dating. Technically, I’m still married to the flaming turd from Satan’s ass and I also would not visit some of the trauma I’m still experiencing on some poor, unsuspecting person. I need to work on me so that I don’t attract another shit-covered beast from the bowels of hell never again anymore. I am cultivating being my own best relationship right now in order to be my best self so that I only attract people who are healthy and their best selves.

          Everyone is different but some people, particularly women I have known, in order to feel better about themselves because they feel so bad after a break up, jump from relationship to relationship (let’s call it novacaine dating) and end up with the same person dressed in a different outfit. The crap I am dealing with from the Satanic Shit-Beast is difficult enough for me to currently deal with, let alone imposing the disordered, insane fall-out on someone else. My therapist is happy I’m at least thinking about dating, but even she realizes I’m not quite ready. Of course, I haven’t been out of the shit fields quite a year yet, so I’m sure it could be different if you’ve worked on yourself and been out awhile.

          I just think the less baggage you bring to dating and/or a new relationship, the better. Of course, I haven’t “dated” in over 28 years, so I could be all wrong.

            • Mine too, for at least a month, and then for the 7 months it took for the legal process (which was mostly waiting) to work its way out. She’s in love, and I’ve been celibate for 9 months (neither of which I shouldn’t even pay attention to).

            • MIne as well. He had nearly more dates married than I had single. But while I’ve dated here and there (and certainly did after we filed for divorce) he went from my bed to final OWs in about 3 seconds flat. Was introducing her to friends and family within weeks. It was slightly disconcerting.

            • LOL! My ex balled more men during our marriage than most single women will ever be with in an entire lifetime. But he’s not gay, oh no, not him! Ha!

          • On novacaine dating, there’s a great country western song on the phenomenon by The Wreckers called “Different Truck, Same Loser.”

            A beater or a boozer
            A cheater or a user
            Different truck, same loser

              • I love that song.

                My STBX was “dating” another woman before our separation papers were signed. He “swears” they met after we the marriage was done for but with a cheater, who knows??

                Personally, I wouldn’t date a guy who wasn’t officially divorced, but that’s just me. I don’t know how a person can truly learn much if they swing from one relationship into another. To me, it shows some class that a person takes time, does some work on themselves and moves forward with genuine integrity. But I know it doesn’t always work out that way. Certainly just because someone is divorced doesn’t mean they have their shit together. No way in hell I’d date a recently separated man. No thanks.

                I just got out of a hell hole. I need to work on me. I need to learn about me and unlearn how to be a people pleaser, narc feeder. That’s going to take some time.

                My cheater introduced our kid to his new girlfriend 2 months after we separated. I really WISH that people would give families time to dismantle. To let kids, especially, have the time to see their parents individually and come to some terms with what has happened. Why the big freakin’ rush? If it’s good, it’ll get better if you give it time.

              • I must be getting better. My first thought when I heard that song was it perfectly described the OW that is now living with X (who is going on 7 months of unemployment). BwwHahahahahaha!

          • When I was arguing with my narc (during a pathetic time I thought I could talk sense into him) I said something like: “That woman you are dating…” And he said: “DATING?? Is that what you think we’re doing?” WTF? At least that statement was like a two by four to my temple! For the record, I knew they weren’t just dating…I was just trying not to be too crude. Don’t ask me why. Now I kind of enjoy being crude!

            • Don’t know why my comment posted here…I was responding to the dating thread…

      • I am 3 months in, oh, wait! Almost 4 months in to the divorce. Just got a big smile. 😉 Left him 7 months ago (almost 7). Celibate for almost 19 months. Cut the sex off because it was the ONLY thing I could control. I think what makes me the maddest about the whole thing is I KNEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING. I knew when he talked about OW, she was one of his managers at work, I KNEW as soon as it started. I even talked to my sister about it. About a year later they both got fired. A month later they were working for together again at a different job. I KNEW but… I wasn’t strong enough then to leave. I woke up to how much control I gave him in the relationship and I started rebuilding myself. If it had been only ME, I hope I would have left. I had 3 kids and needed a plan to get out.
        Roy is dragging out every single aspect of the divorce. E.V.E.R.Y. D.E.T.A.I.L. At this rate, I might legally be free of him when my kids graduate college.
        Right now, I don’t have any intention of dating. I am learning to reconnect with friends, to feel free to go have a drink with MARRIED FRIENDS and not be scared. So, right now, nope, no dating.
        I am looking ahead though. If he drags this out as long as my lawyer thinks, I will be dating before it’s final. I am not even talking about 6 months from now. My lawyer thinks Roy will drag it out for YEARS. Roy wants to control what he can and if that is only by making this last forever, that is what he will do.
        He doesn’t get to decide any more. He doesn’t get to go and bang some fugly bitch, control my every move and then get to decide when the divorce is going to happen.
        When I am ready, I am going to do what I want. I am not his wife any more. HE decided that when he put his dick n cider.

        • How can your STBX drag it out for years? My ex tried to drag out the settlement negotiations so I filed and a court date was set, either he settled or we were going to court and the let the judge decide. No way was he going weigh me down with his bullshit for years. He settled a week before the court date, good thing cos one day in court would have cost me thousands of dollars.

          In my state once you file there is a finite date, is this not true everywhere in the US? Can a lawyer chump correct me if I’m wrong here?

          • No, it’s not true in every state. My ex’s current girlfriend’s divorce was filed nearly 3 years ago. I feel terribly sorry for her. She has definitely signed up for the “Different Truck, Same Loser” scenario.

          • My divorce is only taking as long as it is because, as is the custom with the disordered, he’s trying to just pick up his toys and go home with his new woman while leaving me destitute and I’m having to fight him tooth and nail. Sigh

            Dealing with these fuckholes is just exhausting. You can’t just sit down with them like a normal human being with normal responses and hammer out some type of half-way fair deal where everyone walks away with something. NOOOOO! Wrestling with these emotional nitwits is like wrestling with a grizzly bear while holding a snapping alligator.

            I told him when he made the unilateral decision to fuck someone else and terrorize me out of the marital home that he was being, if nothing else, financially irresponsible. Now he figures to try to force me to settle for nothing by trying to intimidate me through the court system to give him money which he knows I don’t have in order to help him “with household expenses,” because he supposedly doesn’t have sufficient resources to handle the expense. He’s filing this claim while he’s flying back and forth and wining and dining his fuck buddy. I’m supposed to call him crying and begging for mercy. This is one time, come what may, I intend to stare this fucker down. I hope to be able to kick his ass and then ask for his name afterward.

            This is why I’m not going to date until I am sure that I am healthy enough so I won’t end up with another one of these vomit and shit-covered hell beasts. ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

          • he is not complying with any requests for finances, taxes, income… If he gives his lawyer nothing, my lawyer gets nothing, we file more paperwork, Roy still does nothing. Will it cost him in the end? yes. Will he lose more? yes. In HIS mind though, he is winning by dragging it out. It’s not a simple case of boom boom divorce date issued. It’s like having a court order for protection, you can’t break in and shoot me because I have this piece of paper here. Meanwhile, I am laying dead on the floor clutching that paper when the cops show up. Roy doesn’t care about the END because he knows he is screwed. He cares about the NOW where he wants to screw ME.

            • I don’t get this, my ex didn’t comply with the court orders to supply financial or anything either and that’s how I ended up with him settling. My attorney went to the judge saying ex was not responding, the judge charged him with contempt. Of course my ex was on probation for two DUIs and didn’t want to go to jail that contempt charge work magic.

              WTH do you mean when you say that if your stbx doesn’t pay his lawyer then you lawyer doesn’t get anything? I’m confused

              • She means he won’t cough up the information to the court, or the lawyers. They do this to delay everything and give you the finger at the same time. Delusional. My X is just like this, he doesn’t even comprehend that it hurts him in the end, the point is to make lots of trouble!

              • Just to add my 2 cents.
                I have been DIVORCED since May 2013.
                He has not completed one last issue that will finish the divorce and put $100K in my pocket.
                I will have to seek court intervention to make him complete one of the divorce issues that was to be completed in 30 days.
                Going back to court in NYC is very expensive and, even past 8 month of non-compliance, it is still considered bothering the court.
                I have a ferocious lawyer lawyer in my corner but it isn’t so simple in all cases.
                Just give other people the benefit of the doubt when they say the STBX or EX drags things out in court.

              • thanks Pattytoo…
                my X “doesn’t want a divorce, still loves me, thinks we can work it out” There will be no settlement offered on HIS side bcz he is not willing to even consider that the divorce WILL happen, he won’t provide any financials AT ALL, and the one’s I have are from June/May or further back since I left at that point.
                We even went to custody mediation where he was “willing” to do a 50/50 shared agreement. THAT IS ALL he was willing to do. In our state, if we do not agree on the 50/50 shared, the court will not issue it. Since that is all he was willing to discuss, it was a waste of 4 hours and $250 each.
                Not all states are quick on the divorce. It is not just a matter of here is this that and the other thing, divorce date set in 6 months and divide up the cutlery. Our other house is going into foreclosure, neither of us are living in it. I had to call my lawyer to try to find out when the bank is going to lock us out so I could get there (5 hrs away) to get anything left that I want. We can’t even get that much info bcz Roy won’t tell his lawyer so we can’t find out. I have no key so I can legally break in to the house per my lawyer bcz Roy won’t even give me a gd key. So, yes, dickholes and jackholes and fucktards CAN DELAY the divorce process.

      • I agree with all of this. I am not out of the woods yet in terms of my divorce and I am still separated, but I am honest on my OKC profile and with divorces taking so long these days, who knows who will come along! But to each his/her own. 🙂

  • I’m straight, but every time CL answers a letter from a gay chump I’m struck by how insignificant the Chump’s orientation is to the problem or solution. Same goes for chumps from one country versus another. I’m just not seeing much difference. Perhaps there’s some difference between genders, but I suspect much of that arises from differences in earning power or differences in how much time each has had to spend with the kids.

    All to say, a chump is a chump is a chump. And a cheater has got to be dumped.

    • I agree. Although I think it might come as a surprise to this husband to discover his wife’s bisexual orientation. I’m betting he has no idea, I’m also betting Stephanie was portrayed as some crazy woman who has a crush on her, and oh no, she’s not into that kind of thing.

      • I suppose, but I think even that would only be a light variation on the “bitch-be-crazy / I-have-no-idea-what-she’s-talking-about” Cheater explanation gambit that’s played in countless straight marriages.

        And BTW, I think Cheaters derive an extra measure of pleasure spinning the tale for anyone who will listen about how their beauty is so mysterious and compelling it moves total strangers to go mad with desire and act out in all kinds of destructive ways. Puh-leez.

        • I’m not saying the dynamics are different with cheaters gay or straight. I’m agreeing with you. Narcissists are narcissists.

          I do have the feeling, that Sally lied to her husband about her orientation, as much as she lied to Stephanie about it. At the end of the day, these people are users. You’re kibbles to them.

    • “All to say, a chump is a chump is a chump. And a cheater has got to be dumped.” – I think many chumps – at first – try to find the exceptions in their experiences. I know I did initially, during false reconciliation. Same feeling I got when I read the dom/sub angle yesterday. I thought our “different countries, two marriages” thing made it different, more distant, less likely to destroy my marriage.

      The moment I found out my marriage had been hollowed out long before, I also realized that all the specifics were mere details. The cheating, lying, betrayal: all comes straight out of the book, right down to classic sentences and excuses I heard (in Dutch they are just as horrible!).

      • Good point. We ALL want to believe we’re exceptions. No, I’m the lucky unicorn! It’s one of the hardest things, to realize how common and banal infidelity is, and how un-special our story is. But realizing that makes for chump solidarity. There are only so many ways to manipulate a person.

        • And once we admit and realise how common and banal infidelity is we can also admit and realise that their ‘special once in a life time soulmate love’ is also common and banal.

          And then we can move on.

        • Stupid things Dutch cheaters say…

          ENG: I got on a slide and didn’t know how to step off
          DUTCH: Ik stapte op een glijbaan en wist niet hoe ik eraf moest stappen
          CHEATERSPEAK: Yeah, bookings flights, hotels, spinning a web of lies, that all comes so naturally, it was such a rush I didn’t want it to stop, ever.

          ENG: You are so controlling
          DUTCH: Jij wil alles bepalen
          CHEATERSPEAK: I loved it when you took care of everything, I never complained, but there has to be a reason, right?

          ENG: I can’t decide, I love her, but I want to be with you and the kids
          DUTCH: Ik kan niet kiezen, ik hou van haar, maar ik wil bij jou en de kinderen zijn
          CHEATERSPEAK: I have made my decision a long time ago, why did you have to find out and ruin my cake supply?

          Sounds familiar?! Luckily I believe “meh” is quite international and I’m working up to it. Thanks to this site!

          • I love “I got on a slide and didn’t know how to step off.”

            Perhaps if he had fallen off of the slide and hit his head, his brain might have worked better.

          • Yep, got all three. The last one wasn’t quite love but he was feeling something for her and ‘needed time’ to ‘figure things out’. Well, that’s the day I booted his ass. Now he’s stuck with her because I exposed, exposed, exposed…including to her partner.

            He’s making all teh same moves with her to keep her in place that he did with me…I figure it’ll end the same way, unless she needs to ‘prove’ they were meant to be, which means she’ll eat a shit sandwich for eternity.

          • Just love the Dutch translation. I live in NL and thanks to you I am tweetaalig in cheaterspeak. My cheater wasn’t Dutch BTW

          • I want all the naughty words. How do you tell your cheater to fuck off in Dutch?

            • “Rot op, klootzak!”

              The pronunciation would get you into trouble probably… klootzak literally translates into ‘scrotum’ and would be pronounced:

              Luckily I can’t think of any Dutch cheater that wouldn’t grasp the meaning of a heartfelt “Fuck off”.

          • En de klassieker (classic) : ik houd nog steeds van je, maar ik ben niet (meer) verliefd op je.

            Means something like: I still love you, but I’m not in love with you anymore).

            Seems like shitsandwitches just taste the same whereever you live.

  • Okay, let’s try this again, and CL, if you can delete the above post, that’d be swell. 🙂

    While I generally believe that dating while married is A Bad Thing, I can understand that in some states and countries, where some asshole legislation decides that Marriage Must Be Saved and thus enacts legislation prolonging the divorce process so that the Reconciliation Industrial Complex goes into full swing, that people in the middle of the divorce process don’t want to live as if they were cloistered.

    That said, it’s a red flag if someone says they’re married, but going through the divorce. We’ve had more than one unknowing AP say that they thought the cheater was sincere. Cheaters are great at lying. The “we’re getting a divorce” is one of the classic lines, so I think I’d want to see documented proof of the process, though I also know in my state that the process can be stopped up to the time the marriage is dissolved.

    Anyway, yes, you were with a manipulative POS who’s trying to gaslight you. The fact that she cheated on her husband is not your fault. It is also not your fault that she’s not divorcing her husband. She’s a cheater. They’re like that. If they were honest in falling out of love with their spouse and falling in love with someone else, they’d divorce their spouse.

    So good riddance! Now get that therapy that CL suggests. Fix your picker. There are plenty of good women out there. She was not one of them!

    • We’re getting a divorce is classic cheater speak. I think more telling about any cheater is how available are they? If you don’t hang out at their house much, if you can’t call them up on a Wednesday night and say “Let’s get a pizza!”, if they don’t answer the phone, if they’re BUSY ON CHRISTMAS — hellOooo there is someone else.

      In retrospect, my ex-cheater, while divorced, flaked out on dates a lot. He instigated all the calls, so I felt like I’d talked to him enough, so I didn’t call him. He was weirdly unavailable on his birthday. I missed a lot of similar red flags. He could’ve been married. In his case, he had a long-term mistress. And God knows how many others.

      • And then there are always the exceptions. People say to date a chump. Well, my lying, cheating, sociopathic ex was also a chump (or at least he said he was: “I know first-hand how much cheating hurts; I could never, ever do something like that to you.”) People also say to date someone who reciprocates, who does the little things to show they care. Yup, my ex brought me lunch at my work several days a week, went to the store just to get me a candy bar I was craving, texted just to say how much he loved me, etc, etc. And all this throughout the 17 yrs we were together. But he was still a lying, cheating POS. Same goes for dating someone who appears available. With the last OW, my ex was on the phone with her – talking, texting, visiting her, etc, literally about 6 hrs total every day. Sounds pretty available, right? I’d agree, except for the fact that she was a family friend who KNEW us well incl how very married we were. Yes, there were other red flags, that both I spackled over and that could easily alert any potential new conquest of his. However, it’s in our chumpy nature to disregard these signs and/ or buy the cheater’s bullshit explanations. Anyway, All this to say, these psychos are good, and there is no such thing as a foolproof “cheater test.”

        • You know what Sunshine? You just reminded me of something. My STBX told me that his first wife cheated on him and that was why they ultimately got a divorce. Of course, I never met her and he had been divorced for a at least a year, if not two, when I met him. Now that I know he is a lying sack of rhinoceros shit, I’d really like to have heard her version of events.

          He did present himself as a Chump, as a caring, feeling, compassionate person who would never put someone through what he had been through and what his father had put his mother through. What a disordered dick – and that’s an insult to dicks everywhere.

          When you are dealing with disordered people, you are correct, there is no foolproof test – except maybe truth serum.

          • Yes, and according to Lundy Bancroft it’s apparently common for abusive men to claim their wives/girlfriends “cheated on them” when those women actually just moved on to new relationships *after* the abusive relationship ended.

            So “chump seeking chump” is not a winning dating strategy, even though two true chumps would probably make a great couple.

            Maybe there is insight to be gained from *how* the person talks about when they were purportedly cheated on? Any Chumps with experience on this?

            • Oh for sure. My cheater ex fits the MO. He told me his TWO ex-wives cheated on him. Poor man. Had a whole sad story how they each ran out on him and married the next guy. Truth is they both dumped him for being a serial cheater, found other relationships, moved on — he considered that cheating on him.

              I wasn’t a knowing chump then (proto-chump?) — this should’ve been a red flag — he had this whole shrink talk spiel about how he’d been a bad husband, blamed himself, didn’t think ill of them — except he did, the anger would slip. But he tried very hard to do that reconciliation industrial complex speak about oh, hey, Mistakes Were Made. I’m very Evolved About It.

              Had he been a true chump (my husband as any reader here knows is a true chump) — the attitude toward the ex should be one of horror, disgust, and I don’t want that person in my life ever. Total NC. I was chumped. Period. It was a dreadful experience. I grew from it.

              Not, I was a poor, sad sausage. They love someone else. Not blaming yourself, but hey no hard feelings.

              It was OFF. Now that I’ve been chumped, and know chumps, I could tell the difference. Back then I couldn’t. I thought the poor man was noble and evolved.


              • CL, I’d love to hear more details on this distinction – maybe you could write a post on it at some point?

                And while I’m making requests 🙂 it would be handy to dedicate another post to going no contact. I know you’ve covered the psychological side, but I’d actually be interested in seeing a collection of all the very practical steps people have taken to minimize contact (during the divorce or when children involved) or eliminate it. I feel like I’ve read some real gems here and there (in these posts, comments, books, etc.) that I would never have thought of, and I would love to see those gathered together…

              • Psyche, the first thing I did was insist my ex stay away from me physically. I packed up my things and moved out over several weeks, and he would come get things when I was at work and leave before I got home. Of course I was lucky that he complied with my wishes not to see him. As the divorce proceeded I found every way to physically avoid him that I could. When it was time to close on the sale of our family home, I arranged to sign papers ahead of time and pick them up after the closing. While waiting for my ex to sign papers I met a friend and had a leisurely and relaxing breakfast. I managed to go a whole year before seeing him face to face again. Whenever there was any communication it was through email or text, except for one time when we had to talk on the phone about sale of our house. Any time I had physical contact with him the grief would overwhelm me, so not seeing him was the best way I could think to manage it. I’m sure he thought it was ridiculous, but I stopped caring what he thought and did what I could to protect myself from him.

              • Lyn, Our situations sound so similar. My STBX seems surprised that I am divorcing him and have not seen him since he left. I guess he figured I would break down and ask him to come back. I have agonized over the sheer scope of watching my life hit the ground and go caroming out of control like a superball thrown hard. I was not about to give him access to see me hurting any more. And now, irony of ironies, I found out he’s attending the final hearing on Thursday (he signed a waiver and I thought he would stay away) I am so not looking forward to the discomfort. I have PTSD and it’s only been a month since I finally came down from hyper-spaz.

              • Pscyhe, I went no contact immediately after my ex told me he didn’t want to be with me anymore, even before I found out about the third OW. All contact were through emails. No texts (I find texting still a bit intimate), no voice mail messages, nothing. I wrote the most professional and succinct emails possible. I didn’t write out his name nor did I write out my name on emails. Very impersonal. If he sent an email that didn’t require an answer, I didn’t respond. If the email required an answer, I stuck with one word answers and if I couldn’t, then I limited it to one sentence. If I wrote back more than one sentence, I’d challenge myself to re-write the response to limit it to one sentence. It worked 99% of the time other than when it concerned divorce settlement. When he showed up on my doorstep a year later with no contact other than the ones I just described, I met him outside my home but he asked to come in because it was freezing. We stood in the foyer. I wanted to make it clear the visit was brief. I only let him in because I was on my way out when he pulled up the driveway unannounced. Otherwise, I would not have answered the door. I went no contact with his family, too, for the first 8 months. I have since re-established contact with his parents (they’ve always treated me well) because of our son, but still very limited and I made ground rules that we never, ever talk about the ex. They have complied. I don’t check his FB although an unsuspecting friend will sometimes update me and I will ask them not to do it again. It can be tempting but the set back is not worth it. If I find out something about his life, I make sure that channel of information is shut down so it doesn’t happen again. It’s all about boundaries and enforcing them.

              • For some reason CL just reminded me that my ex emailed right after D-day “You must hate me, but I don’t hate you” — like he was a better person for not feeling animosity towards me, because the reason he cheated was because I let him down so many years ago (at which time he never said a thing). He only decided to tell me I’d let him down years ago after he’d decided to cheat, at which time he thought he should let me know his cheating was my fault, but hey, he was the bigger person because he felt no ill will towards me. I, on the other hand, was extremely angry and devastated and didn’t take it in stride so that made me the lesser person. LOL

              • It’s like when they forgive themselves (for all the agony they caused US).

              • Ex kept trying to tell me I hated him. I didn’t hate him and I still don’t. I refuse to waste that kind of energy on someone like him. The funny part is that he hates me so it’s just more projection.

              • Not sure why my posts aren’t attaching to the one I’m responding to but hope you all can figure them out!

              • My ex did this a bit differently. Way back when we got together he told me his last girlfriend had issues with abuse, she needed abuse from him and he couldn’t give her that because he could never hurt a woman. Of course, that was a damn lie, I believed it at the time though.

                Fast forward to after DDay, now he tells me that his last girlfriend cheated on him and he had a long story about threatening the OM. Of course, that was a damn lie, this time I did not believe either story.

                My cat got sick a few months later so I have to go to the emergency vet. LO and Behold, his ex girlfriend is the vet tech. So without telling her his stories I just asked her if she would mind telling me why she and my ex broke up. Get this; she broke up with him because he lost his job as soon as he moved in with her and never tried to get a new one, he spent all day watching TV and reading. She gave him chances but after a year she kicked him out. It was like deja vu, he lost his job a few weeks after he moved in with me too! I gave him one month to find a job or he’d have to leave, he found a job the same week. I guess he learned something from her, the better to screw over the next person with…

              • My cheating ex actually had the right attitude toward cheating (note: attitude, not behavior). He hated his cheating ex, and was totally no contact with her. His attitude toward cheating was pretty much the exact same as ours on this site. He even told me “anyone who cheats has no soul.” And that was 2 days before dday while, of course, he was cheating. Yep, turns out he pegged himself perfectly.

              • Aha! I don’t think I’ll ever get past the disgust and betrayal to even think about being “friends” with X or his skanky beard. Meanwhile, the kids tell me that Dad and OW’s ex-husband are now best buds. WTF? Maybe that’s why he thinks I’m an asshole because I didn’t just “roll with it” like the OW’s ex?

                I endure visitation nights and weekend drop offs and pick ups. But I know myself well enough to know I’ll never pop over the love shack in Clusterfuckdale for a cup of tea.


        • Sunshine:
          I disagree with you. There is definitely a 100% foolproof cheater test and it’s each one of us. The minute you go huh? in reaction to something a another person says or does and you can’t get a straight answer. Failure of the Cheater Test.

          I know in my situation there were red flags galore and right from the beginning. Since I never experienced things like this before, I addressed them directly and then waited to see if the behavior would change. It did but other weird red flags would pop up and so on and so on until D Day.

          I will bet you that there is not one chump here who now when they look back can’t say they there where no red flags early on in their relationships. What I quantify as a red flag is anything odd or without a clear explanation.

          • Agree. What I thought were just little quirks turned out to be big fat red flags waving wildly. It was stuff that wasn’t even all that important but taken as a whole, over time, add up to who ex actually is. And I agree, when I addressed things they would change but like a mole, would pop up somewhere else.

          • Good point, Deborah. You’re probably right. I guess we chumps just don’t see/ don’t want to see them. There certainly were red flags with my ex, but I didn’t want to believe that he was the bad person that he actually is…

      • It’s also classic Chump-speak: “We’re getting divorced, but he/she is cheating” right before they hop on the reconciliation unicorn and ride off into the sunset with their former cheating spouse.

        It’s also, “I am in trauma, and am looking for an external cure” speak unfortunately.

        And then there’s the “it’s really, really over… except for the legal drama, and this dating just created a whole new set of chapters (complete with court motions)”.

        As a single person, I’ll pass.

        It’s not really personal. We all go through stuff, and we all do our best to cope with things (and sometimes do it badly or fail to anticipate some consequences beyond our control). I know one thing I can control, though, is whether or not I will knowingly date anybody who is still married. I won’t. It’s a firm boundary. It’s not personal. A prospective date could still be a fine person dealing with an unfortunate circumstance, but that isn’t my problem. I can empathize just fine without putting myself in a position of dating somebody who isn’t as available as I am (and legally not available to boot). If the dating were to get serious, there’s one of two ways it would tend to go: either you breakup or… worse… you get married. You can’t marry somebody who is already married legally, so that puts you on the breakup path most likely if it gets serious, so… in the spirit of dumping and being dumped without taking it too personally, dumping this problem that isn’t mine seems like the best course to me.

        • TimeHeals, I think you’re well within your rights to set that boundary, and am sure Chump Nation would support you. That’s what we’re all trying to do: learn how to set better boundaries (and each person’s may be slightly different – but that’s the point, to find where we want our own personal boundaries to be).

          I think the comments you are seeing from CL, etc. just articulate another sentiment: there shouldn’t be a blanket rule against dating during a separation (as long as that’s honestly communicated up front to the other person!). I agree with them in that I feel like my spouse stole enough years of my life, and I don’t intend to let him (including his stalling around the divorce) control my actions any longer.

      • On the other hand… when I will be ready to go dating, I’ll try to keep my young children (who live with me) out of the initial mix. Next to work (part-time job and a web design business), that leaves me with not so much availability.

  • Whew, what’s up with these gay/bisexual/confused cheaters? Stephanie, sorry you had to go through all that. I agree with CL: let the husband know, then go complete NC on that lying woman’s ass.

    She is probably using her husband as her beard, and I’d be willing to bet you are not her first female sidepiece. Don’t waste any time wanting her back, because she’s already spun all this to her husband as you are some crazy woman stalking her, or some such bullshit. She’s not coming back, and THANK GOD FOR THAT. I am sure you can find a wonderful, available, HONEST gay woman out there who will cherish you and want to spend Christmas with you. This married, lying cheater is bad news, and will hurt everyone she comes in contact with.

    I feel extra sorry for her husband, because this reminds me somewhat of my own nightmarish experience.

  • Hi all!! And hi chump lady !! Been reading for a while and love this site!! I used to be a chump but no more !! Just want to let you all know that it does get better!!…. Been divorced 6 yrs…dated a lot of weirdos and met my husband 3yrs ago…been married almost 7 months…he’s an amazing man and am very happy…only prob is he’s a chump himself and very hard to explain to him that he’s been a doormat to his ex wife and 2 teenage daughters since his divorce 7 yrs ago. She’s remarried , but listen to this: she’s bisexual and he knew abt it and she told him that one of the conditions was that she can be with women too!!! Wtf!! He allowed this cause ” he wanted to make her happy” just wow!! Then they met a couple in Vegas and she started sleeping with the guy and forced him to be with this guys wife and he put up with it for 2yrs, scared that she would take him to the cleaners with his business….what a chump he was…he finally divorced her but can’t seem to tell her to mind her own business…his daughters are so manipulating too …anything they not happy with they tell her and then she sends him emails…trying so hard to explain to him that you have to go no contact!! His kids don’t even give him a hug goodbye after they visit, they just merrily get out of car and walk away! I find this weird but he’s always justifying their behavior…I’m i right by saying he’s still a chump?? Would love some input chump lady and fellow chumps.

    • Yep, he’s still a chump and he’s still spackling and acting like a doormat.

    • Surviving Chump,

      I seriously understand your frustration. However, I would like to address your angst toward his children. Seven years or not, these children have been caught in the middle of a situation in which they had no say so. They are just trying to navigate it. It sounds as though they live with their mother and treat their father in a similar fashion as their mother. Unfortunately, your husband hasn’t just been a doormat since the divorce. In all likelihood, he was a doormat during the marriage. His children have become accustomed to doing what you do to a doormat – walk on it and wipe your feet on it.

      His children are simply doing what they’ve always done, what they’ve been conditioned to do. Your husband has been and is being abused by his narcissistic ex-wife and has been and is being abused, by proxy (quite common), by his children. That’s how things work in an abusive family. That’s how abusers operate. He defends his children because he knows what happened in that family dynamic and he understands the mindfuck, thus their behavior. However, understanding their behavior and tolerating that shit are two different horse saddles. He needs to figure out that distinction.

      Our entire household revolved around my STBX’s moods, wants and desires. He imposed very little discipline, unless it suited him to do so because of some unpleasant impact he was experiencing. He was the “fun, easy-going” parent. That left me the heavy – the parent who imposed rules, discipline and tried to instill some morals into the children. It is a symptom of how disordered people operate. Even though we are separated, the kids see him as the “calm, easy-going” parent and me as the “high-strung, hysterical, but always supportive and dependable” parent. He set it up that way. Nowadays, I call them out on any behavior that I see as continuing the proxy abuse, particularly since they are adults, even though I understand that it is a conditioned response. I simply don’t let them get away with it any longer. My new boundaries.

      I say all that to say, you and your husband are the adults in the room. He has to stand up for himself and parent those girls in a way that lets them know he loves them while at the same commanding respect. In order for that to occur, he has to first learn and exhibit some respect himself. Then he has to stop tolerating the shit from their mother. Children learn by example. You can’t do it for him or force him into it. He has to figure it out and want it for himself. Has he received any counseling/therapy since the divorce? Seven years is a long time to still be sucking ass from a narcissist.

      I understand your frustration but you can’t control your husband or his daughters. Only he can do that. I hope things get better with you, your husband and his daughters. Good luck.

      • that should read “for himself.” If I can’t get an editor, can I get a proof-reader?

      • I’ll proof read if you admit we’re long lost twins, separated at birth because yep, I was the parent who set the rules, got pissed off, but was there and dealt with everything while he was mr nice fun guy who only got pissed if it actually was right there in front of him and bothering him.

        We really were married to the same doucheball in so many ways.

        • Nord, we probably were separated at birth. Maybe some tv show will bring us together while doing a long-lost relative show. 🙂 🙂

          • Probably all clones.

            We don’t have children, but my cheater is ultra permissive with our animals–until the same behavior he thought was cute 2 seconds ago suddenly isn’t.

            Every time he goes to the refrigerator, he’ll feed some cheese to the dogs. As a result, if he goes in the kitchen, all the dogs tear in there and the tail wagging and begging can be heard throughout the house. When he’s pissed off, he’ll viciously yell at them.

            The dogs don’t even care if I go to the refrigerator. They’re interested if I start cutting up cheese, but they won’t make nuisances of themselves, since they know I don’t give away cheese. Rather, the action of cutting up cheese means that they’ll have a training session, which they love. Thus, they’ll go to their crates in anticipation of the training.

            I imagine it’s similar for parenting, with Disordered Fun Parent being ultra permissive and subverting every boundary the Sane Parent tries to enforce. Sane Parent says no television after 9pm on a school night for the 8-year-old (kid gets too wound up and doesn’t sleep well). Disordered Fun Parent says sure, it’s okay to stay up to watch the slasher movie that’s on cable. Sane Parent tries to indicate that child will not only be too tired for school, but will have nightmares for days. Disordered Fun Parent doesn’t give a rat’s ass–until the child comes into the parental bedroom, crying about the nightmares. Then Disordered Fun Parent turns into an ogre and yells at the kid for disturbing their slumber.


          • Quads, holy cow! He now has them half the time two miles away from me with OW and now will text me frantically during dinner time of homework time or sleep time that my sons needs all sorts of therapy and that it’s my fault because (fill in the blank here). OW went from cheating Jo ewes king skank living in her husbands house while sleeping with mine, all out in the open, no sneaking, to put up bitch in a 5 bedroom home financed by MY 23 years of business and financial savvy, and now she’s an organic poser, trying to tell me exH that my kids can drink lemonade, all the while giving them Capri Suns, lol. I could go on…..and on.

  • Stephanie,

    That is so unfair to you. You shouldn’t have had to be in a relationship to find out that you’re the affair partner. There are plenty of unattached women who will make you happy, I’m sure you’ll find one.

  • Sorry I forgot to also mention that my husbands ex wife married the guy she was dating while married to my now husband… And he felt the need to most of the time strike up a conversation with him ….eeeeew!! I put a stop to this explaining that you don’t have to be too polite to your exes affair partner…did she care abt his feelings when she was screwing him in front of him …you owe these people nothing!!

  • Stephanie,

    I don’t know all of the details of Miss “Sally’s” actual words when she informed you of her marriage. However, based on what you posted, what she really said to you was, “All I care about is myself. I lied to my friend and am in a relationship with him for my own benefit and I don’t really care how he feels, which is why I feel entitled to have this relationship with you. So what if I’m betraying my friend? Fuck him.” If this is how Little Miss Sally treats her “friends,” why did you think you would fare any better?

    One of the major foundations in any intimate relationship is the friendship that exists. Are you comfortable with friends who are willing to betray people they consider friends? Could you be comfortable betraying a friend? Little Sally told you exactly who she was when she told you about her husband-friend – you just weren’t paying attention. We Chumps tend to lose some of our hearing when we’re in love. Messages get scrambled and things get lost in translation. What you probably heard was, “I love you the most.” Until she didn’t (because she never did). Disordered people are cagey that way – they tell you what you want hear so they can get what they want. They don’t mean it. Everything with them is situational. They blame you for believing them.

    Old Sally, whether she is gay, straight or bi, is a manipulative, selfish, self-absorbed, it’s all about me monkey’s ass (an apology to upstanding monkey asses everywhere). You deserve better. Clean that Chump filtering wax out of your ears and find a caring, loving, non-disordered woman who will reciprocate your feelings and treat you well. They are out there and you deserve it.

  • Stephanie: Thank you for sharing your experiences. As you can see (and as other Chumps have pointed out), cheating and cake-eating doesn’t stop at any point on the Kinsey scale. And as you witnessed first-hand, the secrets, lies and blame-shifting are all the same. This would be no different than if you were dating a man whom you later found out was still married to a woman. Same shit, different orientation.

    To your specific situation though, it sounds like your ex is bisexual. I would guess this based not only her cake-eating but the date of her wedding. A real lesbian wouldn’t have anything to do with a man romantically no matter how much cake she wants to eat. She seems to be yet another bisexual ruining it for the rest of us by perpetuating the stereotype that bisexuals are incapable of monogamy.

    I’m also curious if your ex was open about her sexuality to anyone besides you. And this may be the place where I sympathize with her, but only to a point. I’ve always been bisexual (I’ve been in love with three people in my life, two of which were men, perhaps that makes me 75% gay :-p). In my younger days, I NEVER told guys I went on dates with that I liked girls. And most girls aren’t even trying to hear that you like to sleep with other men. It’s not homophobia per se. Just a little discomfort. Or, as a former girlfriend said to me one time: “Ugh! I gotta worry about you checking out other girls AND guys?!”

    HOWEVER, those are the choices I made as a young person. In relationships, I was honest about my bisexuality but MONOGAMOUS. I’m questioning how honest your ex was with you or her husband.

    My guess is she’s bi and just enjoys the cake. The fact that the Chumpy husband didn’t think anything was askew about a strange woman showing up at his house on Christmas to CONFRONT HIS WIFE suggests that he’s probably turning a blind eye to his wife’s true sexuality. Not to mention the fact that your ex as you’ve described her sounds like she’s quite skilled in talking her way out of situations and telling Chumps exactly what they want to hear. If she called you “emotionally unstable” to your face, what do you think she said about you behind closed doors to Chumpy Hubby? You need to run far, far away from this woman.

    It’s a very complicated situation, to be sure. But when you strip it all away, you got Chumped just like so many of us did. Regardless of her true sexuality, she wanted to have her cake and eat it too. She wanted the safety and comfort of her husband and the sparkly relationship with her girlfriend without the two knowing about each other.

    First Red Flag: If I read your letter correctly, you said you “confronted” Sally about being married to a man, which suggests she didn’t offer that information when you started dating. Rather, you found out through a third party. You should’ve RAN after that. If she truly was going through a divorce, she had no reason to hide that from you.

    Second Red Flag: Since divorce can drag out for years regardless of what caused the break-up, plenty of separated couples get into new relationships. The fact that the husband didn’t seem to know you existed suggests that your ex was lying to you about the status of her marriage, not to mention lying to him. Or maybe they truly are separated but your ex likes cake too much. I would lean towards the latter. Trust me, if she truly was a lesbian and wanted out of that marriage, that would’ve been the FIRST fucking thing out of her mouth to her husband. So he’s either turning a blind eye to his wife’s sexuality or completely in the dark about what his wife was doing behind his back.

    There’s a million and one possibilities. I think the reason she turned on you is because you “outed” her. Not just as a bisexual, but as a cheater. She wanted to keep you and hubby in completely separate worlds and was feeding you both sparkly shit sandwiches. When the worlds collided, she picked the partner who asked the least amount of questions and who was more inclined to believe her lies. In short, she picked the Better Chump.

    Here’s my advice:

    a) In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with bisexuality. There IS something wrong with cheating bisexuals. “I’m confused!” and “I don’t know what I want!” is for 15-year-olds. If a bisexual is that conflicted, then they can make the choice to stay single. Don’t allow yourself to get talked into relationships based on rainbow-colored flattery. Because that’s Chumpiness on a GRAND motherfucking scale! “Poor thing! She’s trapped in a loveless, inauthentic marriage! Our relationship is real! I’m an extension of her true self! Take my hand, darling, and let’s bust out of this closet together! Here’s a few kibbles for the road!”

    b) If you have to find out through a third party that your partner is still legally married, then you need to run far the fuck away. It doesn’t matter if your ex was married to the worst person in the world. If someone can lie about their marital status, then they can lie about anything. Your ex hid that from you intentionally, and likely hid you from him, to keep her cake supply. Lesbian, Gay, bi, straight, or trans, that’s called CHEATING. You deserve better.

    c) Trust your gut but don’t act on it. I bet you knew something was wrong when you pulled up to the house and saw that the lights were on. At that point, you should’ve gotten into the car and left that relationship behind. Knocking on the door and causing a scene didn’t do anybody any favors.

    d) I can only offer you this advice as a Gay Chump, but going forward, adjust your picker and focus on girls who are Out and Proud. Don’t feel like you have to be SuperChump and burst into the closet to rescue these poor lesbians out of their boring, heterosexual marriages. I’m sure that’s what you told yourself after you found out your ex was married to a man. And I’m sure her provocative “You’re the one I love!” nonsense didn’t help either. You thought: “I can save her!!” Your ex could very well be conflicted about her sexuality. But in terms of a relationship, you’re just asking for trouble. You don’t need that in your life.

    e) Never blame yourself for someone else’s inability to communicate. You feel like you didn’t give her a “safe zone” to express her feelings? That’s crap. She was deliberately hiding things from you and played the “I’m not sure!” card to keep you on the hook. Those were HER actions. Not yours. She trusted that you’d be Chumpy enough to stick around and wait for her to make up her mind. You, in turn, need to trust that she sucks and find someone who’s truly deserving of your love and affection.

    • Yeah, I’m just handing this column thing over to you Chris. Well done.

      You totally hit on a point I missed — Sally is using her sexual “confusion” to mindfuck Stephanie, playing to a chump weakness — special savior. I’m the One Who Really Understands You!

      Kudos, Chris.

      • Thanks Chump Lady and Chris for the feedback! I know she’s a lying piece of shit and I am better off without her! I honestly don’t think Sally is even truthful with herself about her sexuality. A friend of hers told me she married to piss off her ex girlfriend and show her that she is living well. In addition, Sally was sleeping with this male friend of hers but would tell him she was a lesbian yet have sex with him. What a confusing mess! Her husband had no idea that she is “gay” even though she told me she told him last year, in Jan 2013. The night I busted her, I did blurt out to her husband that I had been seeing her and asked if they were meeting to divorce since that is what she had been claiming. He looked confused as hell. I found him on LinkedIn and told him everything that was going on by email and that I would send him proof and pictures. He didn’t respond but I am sure her lying ass covered that up, somehow. Hey, if she wanted a friendship with this guy, she should have said that from the beginning and been honest! Time for more self improvement and growth from this awful ordeal. I know I deserve better.

        • “I did blurt out to her husband that I had been seeing her and asked if they were meeting to divorce since that is what she had been claiming. He looked confused as hell. I found him on LinkedIn and told him everything that was going on by email and that I would send him proof and pictures. He didn’t respond but I am sure her lying ass covered that up, somehow.”

          See above. Sally picked the Chump who asked the least amount of questions and offered the least amount of resistance. Sally doesn’t love anybody but herself and uses her bisexuality as a weapon against commitment.

          When she gets bored with her husband, she gets to say: “I’m so sorry! I’m not in love with you because I’m a lesbian!” When she gets bored with you, she gets say: “I’m so confused! I need time to figure this sexuality stuff out! But don’t go anywhere because you’re My True Love!” See how that works?

          I’m glad you recognize that you deserve better, because that’s a bad acid trip you won’t EVER come down off of. But I’m sorry that her Chumpy husband doesn’t think HE deserves better.

          Instead of sending him the sordid details of your affair via LinkedIn, send him this instead: :-p

  • “You know why chumps think such stupid things? That we MAKE people do things, that we have these codependent super powers? Because it saves us from concluding the truth — we don’t control this, and the disordered person doesn’t give jack shit about us.”

    I have been reading this site for over a month now and this really hit home for me. It makes so much sense!! I have my story to tell and would like support but I am not ready to share it just yet. I have no contact and it is 100% over but the recovery and learning process is a bear!!!

    • That’s what I was saying to a friend recently. She had been seeing this guy she met on a dating site for about three weeks. She’s a singer, and she had a really, really important concert coming up and it was a really big deal to her. He didn’t show up, and the reason he gave her (over text) was that he was out all night and up till three am and had a hangover. No “I’m sorry” in there anywhere either.

      She told me it seemed weird to her that he would say that considering he doesn’t go out, doesn’t like to drink, and had just the week before told her that they needed to spend less on dinners. (Well, what he actually said, again through text, was “I’m in charge of how much we spend now, k?”) And he had also dropped the “I love you” bomb on their third date.

      I asked her, “Are you sure you were the only person he was seeing?” She said that she wasn’t entirely sure now, and that she had broken up with him because he was starting to seem controlling (he told her that it would be so romantic if she were his maid…)

      I said that she probably wasn’t his only prospect. She was asking me for advice on how to deal with it, and I told her that she should first of all realize that it wasn’t her fault. She didn’t MAKE him blow her off and then give her a stupid excuse. He CHOSE to make that excuse. He CHOSE to blow off her concert. And he CHOSE not to apologize (or even tell the truth for that matter because personally, I don’t buy his excuse.) He could have gone, he could have been honest, he could have apologized. He ignored all those other options.

      We chumps don’t MAKE these people do shitty things to us, we don’t make them lie, we don’t make them manipulate and hurt and break promises. They chose to do that when they ignore their other more viable choices.

  • IRONY ALERT!!!! Not to hijack this – but just an FYI –

    There is a blurb over at HuffPo regarding a survey taken by CNN which survey says – Ta-Da! – 93% of Americans think it is immoral to be married and cheating. That’s up a percentage point from many years ago.

    To quote a brilliant woman and terrific blog-master, “WTFuckity Fuck!” Then why in the fucking holy hell are so many people married and cheating?!!! Are these the statistics that are damn lies?

    • STBX is very proud of his involvement with a men’s fraternal organization that is very big on integrity. Most of the meetings involve dramatic reenactments meant to convey some kind of lesson about integrity and fraternity. At the same time, he’s cheating.

      WTFuckity Fuck?!

      Well, as you should know, every cheater is Special. They’re not really cheating. Only really bad people cheat. They’re just meeting their needs elsewhere/staying only for the children/trapped in a loveless marriage/all but divorced/married in name only.

      So yeah, it’s wrong to cheat. But they’re not really cheating.

      See how easy it is? 😉

  • I do NC as much as possible. 3 kids, not as possible as I want. I do stay with text and/or emails, primarily so I have proof of what is said and not said.
    I contacted his xwife via facebook.
    Per him “I waited to have children with you because I wanted it to be with someone I truly loved” uh, ok, did you forget I have had the ultrasound pictures from the baby you and your exwife lost in my jewelry box for 9 years? The ones I found in a box of video tapes when we moved to NY for YOUR job, the job you wouldn’t even ask for an extension on transferring to so I had to be induced with your child? dumb shit fuck can’t even remember his dead child when he goes manipulative. fucker.
    So I contacted her. She doesn’t want involved until the divorce is final but “if you felt in your soul you had to leave to protect your children, you did the right thing by listening to your soul.” TO ME that says, he is a sick fuck, I can’t even chance him knowing I talked to you until you are free from him and hell yes you needed to get the hell away from him.
    Meanwhile, no one wants the ultrasound pictures of this baby and I have them with my ultrasound pictures of the baby I lost.

  • As for the whole Married Sally I want my cherry pie too… who gives a shit if you are gay, straight, bi, transgender or none of the above? A liar is a liar. Hell yes I tell my bff she looks great even if she puts on way too much eyeliner and tweezes her eyebrows too thin. Hell no I don’t tell someone it’s ok to insert your mouth or genitalia near someone else’s if either party is married to someone else. It doesn’t MATTER what the coloring book is, it is still a coloring book.
    Tonight I am just upset. I get angry instead of hurt. Safety from when I was a kid. I am hurt that neither PARENT wants this baby’s only pictures. She was just shy of 6 months pregnant and terminated it due to severe abnormalities and trisomy 16 or 18? I don’t know. It wasn’t something I would have done, even if he would have died during or shortly after birth. I am trying hard not to judge but how can I be the only one who cherishes the only pictures of this little boy that exist? Stupid shit fuck assholes.

  • Stephanie,

    I have to be honest here and say that the lesbian aspect blinded me to the simple fact that you are a cheater and you are the other woman. And you have knowingly been the other woman for quite some time. I get that you believed her lies and that a divorce was on the way but while you waited for that you continued a relationship with this woman, and there is a man who is probably going to be incredibly hurt if/when this all comes to light. And you are part of what will most likely cause him immense pain.

    You think you’re hurting right now? Think about him, invested in a relationship with a woman who hasn’t even been straightforward about where her desires really are.

    I have a bit of sympathy but I don’t know how much of a chump you are. I think you just wanted what you wanted and didn’t think for one second about the husband, who probably doesn’t have a clue something is wrong with his marriage. And if he does have a clue he’s probably busy trying to figure out what it is and how to fix it,not realising that not only does his wife not give two shits but there is someone else out there not giving two shit either about the marriage and who has been, in fact, hoping for its demise.

    Get into therapy and figure out why you thought it ok to play your part in this.

  • Men, Women! Doesn’t fucken matter move on take it as a lesson and dont see it as something horrible because at one point the b*tch made you happy right (no offence).
    I am going through the same thing he clamed to had been seperated then 3 months in to the “relationship” his sister along with the wife pushed him to going to counseling he said he owed it to himeself and his son to try. BULLSHIT i myself am so tempted to showing her all our msgs pictures and phone calls. But Im over it and I know he is not happy so, he still calls he wants to remain “friends” I am such a bitch to him he still has the nerve to ask why am I making things awkward really sob.???. So I told myself do I really want a shit bag like that to be with me if he cheated on his wife I wouldn’t want a man like that to with me or even to call mine ! …*****☆☆☆★★BACK TO YOU .. Move on someone like that is worth nothing childish move yes but you busted her ass TOTALLY WORTH IT KUDDOS 😀

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