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Men Cheat Because Women ‘Feminize’ Them… Says Idiot

Another day, another cheater apologist article. You guys send me so many, it’s like a shit smorgasbord. I’ll never run out of material. Thank you.

Today’s article is from that respected peer-reviewed journal tabloid “The Daily Mail” in which “love guru” Linda Joyce tells us about the inner workings of men. In this sympathetic portrayal, Joyce tells us men “live fake lives,” are “blinded by lust,” and “don’t value happiness.” It took Ms. Joyce, astrologer and life coach, to interview hundreds of men to how discover how tragically misunderstood they are. (Hundreds! There are 3.5 billion in the world, but hey let’s not quibble with her random sample.)

Women, see the problem is you’re too controlling, trying to get men to talk about their emotions and stuff. Maybe you asked him to put his napkin on his lap or chew with his mouth shut. Whatever. You’re expecting too much.

‘They cheat because women don’t make him feel like a man and then they shut down. Women try and over feminise their men so they cheat.”

Were you painting his toenails? Asking him about his menstrual cramps? Buying him a Pretty Pony for his birthday? WTF does “feminize their men” mean?

I must be doing it all wrong. I’m not sure how I get my husband to feel like a man. I wasn’t around when he was 18. Near as I can tell he’s been doing this man thing pretty well since then — shaving, peeing standing up, working a job. Perhaps I should ask him “do you feel like a man?” Of course, he won’t answer because men don’t do emotions. But I could offer to make him feel more manly. Fluff his chest hair for him. Let him drive. Tell him he’s totally right about Bruce Springsteen.

I don’t think he’s going to cheat, but who am I compared to Linda Joyce? A self-described: “a one-woman powerhouse for people looking for a pragmatic strategy to solving difficult personal problems.”

Could Joyce explain gay people who cheat to me? Gay men, I think they’re in touch with their femininity. OMG, is that why they’re all sluts? Or gay women, is feminizing why they cheat? One demands the other to be a lipstick lesbian? I’m so confused Linda.

And how do these men find women to cheat with? According to your pulled it out of your ass research men don’t like “slutty dresses” or heels. You’ve eliminated a lot of the applicant pool for mistresses there. “And he absolutely hates desperate women.”  Who’s left to fuck? Nuns? Librarians? Livestock?

But listen, chumps, if he cheats, don’t take it personally.

“They’re not angry at their wives but angry at themselves for letting a woman try and change them.”

Guys are good at compartmentalization. Emotions and happiness? Not so much. But fucking around and coming home to their families? Piece of cake. (I pun.)

“They can have their wife and family in one box and their lover in another. Extra-marital sex is a release for men, not a betrayal.”

And I’m sure those men feel the same way about their cheating wives’ extramarital orgasms. Just a release. Some women enjoy yoga or scrapbooking, and others like strange dick. I’m sure their compartmentalized brains will understand that. And if they don’t — hey, they don’t value happiness anyway, right?

But don’t take my word for it. Ask Linda, “whose client list includes well-known celebrities and international business titans.” She says, “I’ve saved a lot of lives.”

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • I did the whole “make him feel like a man” thing. It didn’t work. I think it made him worse , if anything – more of a jerk, more entitled.

    • That’s the key word with cheaters “entitled”. Linda Joyce is an idiot, pure and simple.

      • Yes– mine felt entitled to my undivided attention and as much sex as he thought he deserved, but he was also entitled to doing what he wanted when he wanted while I did all of the heavy lifting.

        My XWH wasn’t feminized; he was a spoiled brat, plain and simple. He was a Veruca Salt: “I WANT IT NOW!”

        And as Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka says so aptly, “She was a bad egg.”

        • Love the Willy Wonka reference.

          Now that I’m coming out of my stupor I’m disappointed in myself that I thought, well, he’s got all this confidence and bravado, I’ll let him lead our lives and I’ll follow. Turns out all that confidence was insecurity and selfishness mixed.

          Hindsight is 20/20.

          • But what a great thing to learn–the difference between insecurity (bravado, bluster, arrogance, control) and confidence (which would lead him to be a good partner, as confident people can collaborate, share decision-making, share the leadership role, share the satisfaction when things go well and the responsibility when they don’t). That’s a big start on fixing our pickers!

  • LOL! I haven’t even read the post yet. I’m laughing so friggin hard at the ingenious title:

    “Men cheat because women feminize them.” — Idiot

    LOVE IT! Reminds me of those graphics people post on Facebook: Inspirational quotes from accomplished people (MLK, Gandhi, Maya Angelou, JFK, etc.) superimposed over an image of a waterfall or windswept beach.

    Just gotta find a picture of a literal shit smorgasbord. :-p

    • Tracy, you gotta stop!
      The visual of Euphegenia Doubtfire dancing to Aerosmith is gonna haunt me all day now.

  • Male or female, feminist or no we are all HUMAN, Linda – fuckin – Joyce!!!!! Nobody and nothing makes you a total SHIT! She wasted her time and energy on this “study” and article!

    Not a word of it makes sense to me!

  • ONE TIME I asked him to wear a skirt! ONE FUCKING TIME! Was that so wrong Linda?!!? Come to think of it, it was a taffeta skirt with sequins, so maybe it was a little much . . . . BUT IT WAS ONLY ONE TIME . . . . LIN-DA!

    • Come to think of it, one time he put on my bikini top. I didn’t ask him to, he just did. LOL So was that me feminizing him, or him feminizing him? Just so confused…. LOL

    • Rumblekitty,
      Spit out coffee laughing! Was there a poodle too?

    • I hope CL includes a section for great comments from the blog, because you are funny like Tina Fey is funny.

    • I actually asked my ex to stop dressing like a woman for Halloween so often. Seriously. One year, he actually went and got his legs waxed so they would look better in the mini skirt he wore. That really freaked me out and made me angry. The really crazy thing is I’m not making this up.

      • Glad…. I knew you would have an amazing (in the worst way) story about this one.

      • Oh Glad, I feel ya. Three years in a row. Bag lady, witch, then go-go girl. Seriously?
        They continue to amaze in their creepy likeness.

      • Glad you should be banned from participating in freakiest ex comments. LOL. Yours wins hands down.

        BTW, my ex used to wear my panty hose under his breeches while riding his horse, supposedly to keep his legs warm.

        • I am horse woman. I have hunted….no man I know had EVER done that. But it’s fuckin’ hysterical !!!!

      • Glad, you give new meaning to asking your H “do you feel like a man today?”

  • “It took Ms. Joyce, astrologer and life coach, to interview hundreds of men to discover how tragically misunderstood they are.”

    So…she interviewed cheaters? Skewed sample. Interview as many faithful men and see what the stars say then.

  • Holy shit laughed so hard had to get back out of bed as it is midnight here, have laughed so hard.
    For those who don’t know my story My STBX confessed in November to having an affair 8 years ago with another man and to having sexual relations with multiple others since then.
    The minister of the church we attended as a family has told me that I am partially responsible for the failing of our marriage that I have no right to say my marriage is over till he give his permission all while attempting to bring STBX to a place of full restoration so they can reinstall him into the family unit.
    Seriously I hope the minister never sees this woman’s article or I will be up for all of the blame
    I think my feminization of my STBX was the day I told him I was sick of his bitching that I had put on too much weight to wear a particular dress he liked so I suggested to him if he was so upset that it was not being worn to wear it himself and within a few minutes he appeared in the bathroom doorway with it on.

    OMG it is all my fault LOL

    • OK. Now i’ve got it. Maybe cheaters are all closet cross-dressers…

    • “I was sick of his bitching that I had put on too much weight to wear a particular dress he liked”

      Who the fuck does that? Could it be … self-entitled narcissistic swine?

    • That’s it. You’re so darn girly you made your husband gay. Explains everything really.

      • Come to think of it I did give h a gift card for a back wax, never redeemed. I threatened the symbol of his masculinity. Well smack my face and call me Delilah.

        • OMG Sammie–restore him and reinstall him in the family unit? Who is this, Tim the Toolman Taylor????

          I think the warranty wore out long ago–get an upgraded model…

          • Chump in the sand you crack me up.
            your comment nearly made me loose my coffee
            I needed to start my day with a laugh, thanks.

    • Sammie, your strength is amazing. The amount of blameshifting you’ve endured is huge. It’s bad enough that you’ve had to deal with the trauma of your cheating husband but having the minister tell you you’re partially responsible for your husband being involved with a bunch of men is like him telling a rape victim that it’s her fault because women shouldn’t be out after six pm. What your husband did has NOTHING to do with you. It is neither a result of your actions or an indicator of your character. I doubt God blames us for things we have no control over. I know you will find your way. In the meantime I have to scratch my hands because quite frankly they are itching to strangle both of these men.

  • Just read the stupid article and laughed my head off. The three pose pictures of her at the bottom of the article, in her red coat, sans high heels, is hilarious. She should take her red coat and trade it in for a white straight jacket.

    I wonder if she has a man, does she feed him raw meat and listen to his manly grunts and calls it conversation. I can only imagine all the lives she’s saved, horoscope and gibberish word salad treatment. iI she were talking to me, I’d be all manly and tell her to fuck off.

    Linda Joyce, is a complete idiot, with or without high heels. Lol…

  • I think the undertone here is that loyalty is a feminine trait, like wearing slutty dresses and heels. Wait…

  • This article gives me pause for thought. My husband had taken to sitting down peeing in the couple of years before he left. I thought it was because he was getting older but now…………

    • According to Linda Joyce, if your man is peeing sitting down it’s because the wife has feminized him.

      Linda Joyce, encourages men to pee standing up. That’s an example on how she’s saved so many men.

      I myself pee standing up, and never cheated…but got cheated on. Perhaps I masculinized my cheating wife, I wouldn’t be surprised that my ex-wife pees standing up.

      • so what if your wife does pee standing up that is still no reason to cheat. Fuck me! I can change a tire, fix a leaking tap and swing an ax. And am comfortable holding my own in most situations, But I would never in a million years cheat. Yes I have considered it My marriage of the last 6-8 years has not exactly been wonderful. But my respect for my STBX and my children and those I love brought me back to the same concept. Love is a choice and so that is what I did.
        I was gob smacked when I read the title of todays thread and thought to myself ‘Oh no she didn’t” but then I read what Chump Lady had written and laughed my head of because as someone who has had their heart ripped out and stomped on the fact is non of us did anything to make our significant other cheat. that is on them.

        The article is a load of manure

        • Lol I know a woman who made her h and sons pee sitting down amongst other rules. This was a couple with several doctorates between them. Honestly, those 3 always looked terrified of doing something wrong and out of line, so many rules. He did cheat on her as an exit strategy and ran free – no one, including the chump, was surprised. I knew her better than I knew him, and we all exhaled when he took off. Including the chump’s sister who sees how happy the cheater and boys are now.

          • Coward move. No excuse for cheating. He was a coward in his marriage, and in his exit strategy, too.

            • Ouch! Miss Sunshine. 😉
              [Making exceptions means looking closer to home. Just sayin’…]

              • I also want to say that I know women who brag that they make their husband and sons pee sitting down. The very thought of being proud of that gives me the shivers. I never wanted to be married to a castrated male. I don’t believe that peeing while sitting makes one castrated; I do believe that being bullied and shamed into it does.

                I never took my ex’s balls away from him.

                And he cheated and left for a woman who posted “cute” anti-male quotes on her FB page. Now she has his balls.

                Well, at least they’re safe, and he knows where they are. I guess, until he starts in on being passive-aggressive with her, too?

                I think he was angry that I expected him to act like a man. No, I KNOW he was. I do think that’s a major reason why he left. It’s hard work, being a man.

              • Sunshine,

                My “Ouch!” referred to your response to Rock Star’s “justifiable cheater.”

                My current man pees both ways….depends upon whether he is “multi-tasking” at the time. His job; his methods. I’m good. 😉

              • Oh, I know, notyou. I’m not offended….

                This pee while sitting thing just has me thinking.

                I was a pretty good wife.

            • Agree! Actually, all anyone saw was the rules, no one knows what went on in that marriage. Maybe he was a dickhead who needed constant guidance and she stepped into mummy role! Someone has to man up!

      • O M G.
        Don’t Get Me STARTED on Men who Piss Sitting Down.
        YES it Is Effeminate..and L A Z Y.
        EX Claimed he Sat to Pee Because It’s Cleaner…ya Know..No Drip Around Toilet. LOL…and No ” It ” Didn’t get ” Wet ” on the Sitdown.

        And I Wouldn’t Doubt he Would Cheat to feel more ” Manly “….Fact is FUCKING ** and Getting Multiple Women Knocked Up with his SUPERSPERM ** was the ONLY things Besides Fixing Stuff that made him Particularly ” Manly “.

        Sometimes I Pee at a Standing Squat with the Seat UP.. Especially in Public Restrooms or At Home, Just to Give my Thighs a Workout… This Doesn’t make ME Prime for Being Cheated ON, Does it 😉 🙂 Nor Does it Make me ” Butch “.

        • “This article gives me pause for thought. My husband had taken to sitting down peeing in the couple of years before he left. I thought it was because he was getting older but now………… I call poopsterbating!!!!!!

          Bloom, there used to be a website dedicated to teaching women to pee standing up, a la Full Monty…

        • I have 2 sons – they can pee however they’d like, but they’ve been taught how to clean a toilet because keeping a clean house is neither manly nor feminine, it’s just right.

    • Gee, in my case, STBX has always peed sitting down–or so he’s told me. It’s a safety thing with him. Also, apparently he really hates the whole public urinal thing in the men’s toilets.

      Since he’d done that before I ever met him, it must be his parents’ fault that he’s a cheater. I do think he has loads of FOO issues, but ultimately, he can decide to follow or reject the family narrative. I’d never thought that he’d been feminized, though.

      Who knew?

      I’m thinking of filing in a couple of weeks. I guess the conversation will go like this:

      Me: Honey, I know you’re having an affair, and I’ve thought long and hard about this. I won’t stand in the way of Twu Wuv, so I’ve arranged for us to get a divorce.

      STBX: Huh? Me? Affair? But I LOVE you. I just love Schmoopie, too.

      Me: It’s okay; I know that you really need to have this affair because you’re a feminized man who pees sitting down.

      STBX: Oh thank God you understand!

      • WHAT?!!!! Since when does men peeing sitting down feminize them? What does it do, shrivel their dicks and shrink their balls? You guys need to calm down.

        How do I know this? Because I once dated an American who was a complete hunk in every way [happy, remembering sigh]. I walked in on him in the bathroom, in the pose of The Thinker.

        I stared at him in amazement. His response? ‘I clean the bathroom’.
        Deeply organized, deeply logical. There is nothing pansy about a man sitting down, and he really doesn’t need to assert his masculinity spraying urine around.

  • Is it nice to get that pat on your ass from your wife hell ya,,, but just cause i didnt get it today or last week thats not going to make me go out and stick my dick in another ! Stupid just stupid blame shifting bull shit.

    “And I’m sure those men feel the same way about their cheating wives extramarital orgasms”

    What really sucks about this is my wife ALWAYS has a standing offer from me her husband for an orgasm 7 nights a week no matter how fucking tired I am how bad the day was. I am always there to take care of her. Her come back to me ” I wanted a connection” What the FUCK REALLY you narc it really is all about you!! You mean 2 beautiful boys a big house a husband who does not bitch about house work( I really dont mind ) and doing anything you ask does not drink or do drugs goes to work everyday does not lie is a great & loving father PLUS offers you an orgasm 7 nights a week without fail,,,,,, ok maybe this lady can tell me,,,,,, WHAT THE FUCK DID I DO WRONG !!?? !!?? Please I already know the answer…

    Sorry I am off my soap box now stupid fucking people sheesh ,, , ,, , , , , , , , , , ,

    • You didn’t do anything wrong. You just married an asshole like I did. 😉

      • I just thought I was being a good man a good husband ,,,,,,, oh boy was I wrong ,,,according Ms. Joyce at least 😉

        • My best friend (?!?) told me that if I had blown sunshine up my husbands ass he wouldn’t have had to find someone who did. Ouch.

          Considering I’ve never had sunshine blown up my ass, I’m not sure what the draw is, but I’ve lived 45 years and accomplished a lot without such an event. To think I could have been a better woman had I been both blowing and receiving said sunshine. Who knew.

    • Your wife sounds like my ex-wife. Totally, selfish and a whiner.

      I feel for you MichaelD. Man you have no idea how great life is on the other side of non-crazy. I hung in there for so long, because I didn’t want to give up keeping our family together. I realized, that I couldn’t be a great dad and stay sane if I stayed with her.

      That pressure in my chest is gone, I had no idea how good it feels to breathe again. being with a narcissist, is like breathing in smog and fumes. Narcissists suck the life out of you, it’s a slow soul death.

    • Let me say this: at any point in my adult life, what you offer your wife–love, intimacy, support, companionship, partnering in the workload, a big house and 2 beautiful kids–I would have embraced with deep gratitude and reciprocity. Assholes (people who seems themselves as entitled and not accountable to others, including the Jackass, your wife, Rumblekitty’s husband and the cheaters referenced all over this blog) are not capable of gratitude.

      • “the cheaters referenced all over this blog) are not capable of gratitude.”
        This. Gratitude requires humility which they don’t have.

        • Yep– gratitude reflects a true appreciation for what one has.

          Entitlement reflects an expectation that one SHOULD have nice things and be treated well without any expectation of reciprocity or effort. The Entitled believe that they are just amazing people who should naturally have amazing experiences and people falling into their laps because that’s how life should be!

          My ex played at being grateful; he wore the mask well. When I look back at our lives together, though, his actions reeked of entitlement. He did enough for me so that it wasn’t glaringly obvious, but our life together was really all about him and how it enhanced his image.

    • She isn’t capable of having a real connection, no matter how good you are.
      But, damn, MichaelD, for any sane, emotionally healthy woman you’re a dream come true:)
      I can’t stand any of those self-important twits like Ms. Joyce putting the blame of our cheaters’ shitty choices on us. Blah fucking blah whatever. Her “life-saving” insights are pathetic.

      • What is fucked up is people feed into the shit and say,,,,, see I told you it was not my fault entitles yes yes yes indeed !!
        Dream come true me ? No I am a work in progress that works hard to be normal & responsible so I dont raise boys that are scum bags & RESPECT all people and look up to me as their “Superman” I think I am just a normal dude who loves his wife and family to death 😉

    • MichaelD–STBX would do the housework in my household, but it’s major drama. Oh the Humanity! He’s killed himself to do the housework! And strained his back! And..and…and….

      Frankly, it’s not worth it. He can’t cook worth a damn, and every home project is an exercise in drama, with Look at Me! I Suffer But I Do This Anyway. Me? I just do the work and be done with it.

      I would love to have had a partner who will do the housework because really, he feels that’s his contributions to the household, and someone who’ll be okay with doing projects together. STBX is a total jackass when it comes to major projects around the house (keeps putting them off, and then refuses to work with me because he pulls the pity party act).

      And as for orgasms? Well, let’s just say that I had to be available for him, but the reverse was not true.:P

      So yeah, you’re a good husband and father. You just married a total jerk.

    • Say it, Michael! I can’t tell you how many of my friends hint that they hate it, that menopause is the Final Cut, and it doesn’t happen any more.

      Yet there their husbands are, faithful and at home. How come the wife who loved a bit of it, never knowingly said no, …. ?

  • Can anyone tell me if this woman has any real clout our does she have Kelloges credentials?

    I read the article and WTF, I have to say CL’s Retelling of it in real speak was far funnier the actual article makes me want to go back to bed.

          • You do know that was a pun? [Sometimes my warped sense of humor eludes people, and I wouldn’t hurt your feelings intentionally.]

            And sleep IS preferable to that article. Woman’s an ambulatory personification of “bovine scatology”…in a red coat no less.

            • notyou, feelings intact 🙂
              I caught the intent and fully agree, I think my sense of humor is like yours, I will have to remember to put a smile face on the end of mine thought. It was way after 1am so I went to bed.

              But I could not stop thinking that this woman is either a cheater or an OW looking to support the cheater she is with. It also worries me that their are many gullible partners our their that may be in the middle of being gaslight and so on reading this are now preparing their highly extravagant pick me dances.
              Because some times it is hart to tell fact from fiction when it is covered in so much self indulgent shit.
              I know her BS in not true in my case as I did everything I could think of to Masculate my STBX It was the biggest part of my spackle routine. But nothing I said or did was ever going to change where he went. The jury is still out on wether he was like this before we married, I now assume he was he was just an expert at his cover story and fell for it hook line and sinker.
              And like most of us we fall for the persona, what non of us now fall for is the lies OMG I just thought of that phrase you can put lipstick on a pig but it’s still a pig. yep I think that about sums it up .

              notyou I love reading what you have to say. over the last two weeks I have found great insight into my situation due to your posts. keep up the great work.

    • She’s an astrologer. That tells you everything you need to know right there. Oh, and she is also a “life coach,” which is new age code for “narcissist who has never accomplished a fucking thing in her entire life, but feels superior and entitled to dispense her pearls of wisdom to those lowly inferior beings who come to her for advice.”

      • Thats really good >>>>>>>>>>>>>>which is new age code for “narcissist

      • A life coach “friend” of my cheater’s, who it turns out knew about the affair but didn’t tell me, gave me this nugget of wisdom, unasked:

        “And I feel to share that I believe, Alex, that we co-create our relationships. As much as we all want to point fingers and lay blame we are equally responsible.”

        Say no more. Please.

        • The cast of characters in my h’s affair are all social workers. The kind who went into the field to feel superior to others due to an abyss of insecurity, not because of an honest desire to help others. And a lot of life coaches I know – wait, all of them – are women who cheated on their husbands and are now alone. Wuh?

          • They’re ” Respectable” and Oh Soo Full of ” Empathy “ long as You’re PAYING Them for Those Services. No Billable Hours….Oops..WHERE DID the Conscience and Ethics Go ?

            • Precisely. Maybe if they had grown the company WHILE cavorting, I’d have something to work with. But they fucked up both things – and their marriages.

        • OMfingG. Whenever I hear a word like “co-create,” I feel like stabbing myself in the eye with a salad fork. Good Lord. Who comes up with this crap?

        • Here’s something fun my friend sent me on FB. It’s called “The New-Age Bullshit Generator,” and you click on the link to ‘receive wisdom’. I about killed myself laughing, and I could not stop clicking on the link. It’s totally ridiculous, but some of them are oddly compelling in the way of found poetry. Anyway, check it out:

      • Wow, that’s the best description of a life coach I’ve heard. It fits well with those I’ve met.

        • My H describes narcissists as “people who are in love with the smell of their own genitalia”…

          • Maybe that’s why they’re all blowing sunshine up each others asses?

  • My ex MIL must know this woman. My MIL once told me that a woman should always
    have a smile on her face when her husband comes home from work. She said it didn’t matter hard or bad my was because men don’t like women who complain. She said
    men( meaning her serial cheating husband and son) go elsewhere if that happens. This
    is the same woman who I cried to when my cousin’s husband got another woman pregnant while they were married. Her response to my horror was maybe they can work things out. No, my cousin kicked his ass to the curb. So when her beloved son cheated ( with escorts) I didn’t cry to her . I imagine her response to be something along the lines of the author CL quoted. Maybe my need to be treated like a human being not a unpaid indentured servant drove him cheat,

    • It’s blows my mind that there are women out there in 2014, who still think this way. As if the man is this big prize to be won and you have to grasp on for dear life to hang on because GASP, he might leave if he’s not happy! Oh the horror! It doesn’t matter if he cheats on me, just DON’T LEAVE ME! Eh . . . fuck all that. I’ll take my freedom. 🙂

  • Gee I didn’t know it was femminizing a guy to expect him to have integrity. Imagine that…..good character….women’s domain only……Nope! Sorry, can’t buy that.

  • Before the affair, we were having trouble – I felt h’s decisions about work, relocating, going into business with his npd mother were not going to be good for our marriage and family. That I felt like I had kept up my end of the marriage by being a sahm for 15 years, and that I know longer believed in the latest magic beans he was touting. This crushed his fragile boy ego, so he ran to his ho worker I dealt with 3 kids who were devastated by a long distance move to another (albeit hardly foreign) country.

    I ended up being right on all counts – more bad business decisions, in laws not speaking to me (due to perfect sons affair), marriage going downhill fast. The perfect howorker reporting to my h? She wasn’t all she was cracked up to be, and didn’t help business either and got fired last week. Had I known about the affair while back home last summer, I woud never have moved back up here. And now I can’t legally leave with the kids, stuck in a place with no support. I have no joy in being correct in my prediction, I got royally fucked over.

    I spent my horrible time volunteering, getting my first job in 16 years, making new friends, supporting my kids navigating new schools, maintaining a lovely welcoming (rented & paid for by monster in law’s company) home and entertaining, all while sobbing on the shower floor for 8 months while I didn’t know what the hell was wrong with my marriage. He poured his heart out to a mouth breathing hillbilly who he wined and dined in the big smoke (again, paid for by his mommy). Coud I have handled things better? No question. Am I proud of all my actions? No way. But I told him my truth, and he reacted by lying for over a year and hurting me and the kids. As far as he’s concerned, I called him out as a failure and hurt his feelings. So he showed me.

    • “…and that I know longer believed in the latest magic beans he was touting.”

      I came to that point a year or so before my husband betrayed me. I think they know when their game is up and they begin to make an exit plan. He saw that I was losing faith in his insane dreams and schemes (this made me a horrible and “negative” person), so he went on to someone new that he could fool.


      • Exactly. He still thinks his ship is coming in and that I’m into reconcilation. And he’s still looking for magic beans. He’s never had to pay a price for his stupidity, nor had the ow. Her getting fired was a huge shock to her, after 15+ yrs there. She treated boundaries like a bum in the street, just walked right past and ignored. My “inability” to forgive him just proves to him that Im choosing to stay angry. He believed that when he came home w the news of her axing that I was going to drop the “welcome home hero” cake Id been baking all day for him and lift my skirt in lusty gratitude. He was shocked when I didn’t. Shocked. I’m so desperate I’ve started buying lottery tix for the first time in my life, and making promises to the universe like “I promise to give half to charity, I swear”. Chumpity fucking chump chump.

        • Well, “someone’s gotta win” and “you can’t win if you don’t buy” come to mind.

          If you don’t go broke buying them you should be ok!

        • “He believed that when he came home w the news of her axing that I was going to drop the “welcome home hero” cake Id been baking all day for him and lift my skirt in lusty gratitude. ”


          Rock star – you truly are a rock star 🙂

        • Keep working. Save money. Maybe friends/relatives back home can help. Will keep you in my prayers. I know you will make it.

          And what exactly ENTITLES a man to yank his wife and children around from place to place for his career? One of my young male relatives has a wife and 2 kids. He was offered a huge promotion that would have required a move across the country. He not only took the wife and kids into consideration (both kids in HS), he thought about how his parents would manage as they got older. He turned down the promotion–for those reasons–and the company let him stay where he was and promoted him anyway. You had every right to question whether the move was good for you and your family; he should have cared about someone other than himself.

          • My narc stbx moved us a total of 7 times on 15 years!
            7 years of his education, two lost business ( which I had to clean up because he couldn’t deal ) and a final move for his new career!
            Every time I started a new job, got a toe hold in a community and made friends it was all taken away.
            My oldest child is sad that she doesn’t have a hometown or long term friends.
            Whenever I tried to stand up to my Husband about this, his reply was “this is what people have to do!”.
            I did stand up for myself when he got the idea of Northern Ministries and applied for a job 3000 miles away ( attic north ).
            When the big BD hit it was one of his reasons for cheating. Cause I refused to let him follow his dreams. Now I am desperately hoping he runs on that direction. It would make nc so much easier!

            • I mean arctic. But both are cold, dark and damp and the living experience would have been about the same

    • “I called him out as a failure and hurt his feelings. So he showed me. “. This is exactly what happened to me. He started flirting the day after I said these fateful words “I’m tired if your shit. Grow the fuck up already”. Damn if I had known that this would “feminize” his sorry ass I would have said it sooner!!!

      • I definitely hurt him badly – its been 2 years and he still brings it up. Very regularly. I wish I’d spoken up earlier too, but I shudder to think who he’d have fucked as a result. He’s ruined where we now live, I’m glad he didn’t taint where I plan to return. I need to know I have a refuge. I underestimated the fragile ego of a guy who could be an arrogant blowhard and talked a big game to anyone who’d listen, and was going to be the next start up millionaire. Whatevs.

        • I have seen this shit in my STBX also but your post has clarified it for me.
          our circumstances are different but the attitude is the same.
          My STBX would strut around crowing to all who would listen that he had such great prospects. (he has had 20 differed jobs in the 20 years I have known him, I am dumber than a door post in some aspects) but he would set up all these big dreams, like renovating our home (not going to happen) then finding a bigger (stunning ) home closer to our kids school and trying to schmoose the owners for a better price because he was obsessed with it like a giddy school girl. But we had to sell our home first and that was not going to happen as his expectations where not going to be met in our current housing market and I refused to put us in a situation where we run the risk of loosing everything as a result I put my foot down on the bridging loan and because I refused we missed out on getting the house. (I am going to stop right here and say yes I have Emasculated my husband in a biblical sense as I did not submit and allow him to just make the decisions, dame maybe she is right? ) and so H is pissed with me that I did agree to the bridging loan putting us way over our head in debt. I didn’t realize it at the time but omg the sulking and then he loose yet another job and he sits on his ass for two months. So I’m working full time and covering the bills with what I earn and the small loan we had taken to reno the bathroom after 13 years and he refuses a good paying prem job for some crappy casual gig paying next to nothing. At this point I almost lost my cracker again it had been 8 years since the last time. For me the wake up call was when in a heated argument with him he began again to gaslight me and to spin the most incredible shit like this crap job is going to be ‘the one’ they had already hinted at how fantastic he was, they can see that because he had been able to point out to management how crap others are.
          I am not proud of it but I ended up driving the pen I had in my hand into my wrist not because I was suicidal but because I felt like I was loosing my grip on reality. I am sure that he got some twisted sense of empowerment over this as he promptly grabbed the phone and insisted that I phone a member of our church eldership and advise them that I was suicidal. I didn’t do it but what I did do was start to take a good look around me as to what was going on and I did actually ask STBX for a divorce 6 weeks before D’day. just for my own sanity

          But Rock Star your one comment brought this all into line for me ” I underestimated the fragile ego of a guy who could be an arrogant blowhard and talked a big game to anyone who’d listen,”

          in reality they don’t have and Effing clue and as a result cannot fathom how they injure those around them in the process. I don’t really think you hurt him he just likes to bring it up so you feel bad it gives him a kick. A piece of 2×4 now that may hurt.

          • Here’s the big contradiction in many of these cheaters: they feel superior and entitled and need to be recognized as successful, powerful, superior. But they are often so grandiose, with such crap life skills (as CL would say) that they are unsuccessful in careers, in managing money, etc. As a result of those crap life skills, they rely on their spouses to make money or pay bills or keep the family afloat in many ways. So they depend on their spouses but then they feel incompetent in relation to the adults they married. It’s a classic no-win for the chump, who has to step up and either (1) set limits for the narcissist spouse or (2)pick up the slack or (3) let this family sink. Their incompetence leads to the limit-setting, the ego-crushing moments of reality that chumps have to provide but the narcissist doesn’t experience this as a reality check; he or she experiences it as a narcissistic injury.

  • “Some women enjoy yoga or scrapbooking, and others like strange dick.”

    My wife likes yoga AND strange dick. She’s well-rounded like that.

  • This dimwit writes: “And he absolutely hates desperate women.” Huh. This board is full of descriptions of female cheaters and OWs desperate enough to chase married men, have affairs, dress like teenagers, talk about their APs as “soul mates” and “true loves” while their husbands take care of their kids and the wives of their APs take care of the other set. Cheaters love desperation; that’s the basis of the pick-me dance and the endless supply of cake.

    The tiny grain of truth in this is that women who are competent, responsible, mature adults who expect a partner to be an equal, not an adolescent boy, no doubt make boy-men uncomfortable.

    • That’s what I was thinking! The OW my husband found across the street is the most DESPERATE woman I’ve ever laid eyes on! And he loved it- all the clingy attention, 2 AM crying phonecalls, and he seemed to even enjoy the drama of her four suicide attempts when he wouldn’t leave me!
      A bunch of sick puppies, and Linda Joyce can jump right in there with them! Love Guru indeed! She’s trying to set ideas about love back 300 years!

      • As I said in a post earlier this week, my therapist said what the Jackass saw in his married OW was “she adored him.”

  • Reading this pisses me off to no end. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not the most masculine guy in the world, and a lot of what my wife liked about me to begin with was that I wasn’t like other guys she’d dated. Yay me — that got me 13 years of excoriation for not being great at “guy things” AND for what masculine traits I do have. Then an end to sex. And then being cheated on with exactly the sort of guy she’s always claimed not to like. How “feminizing” (whatever that means) is that? But I didn’t cheat. What an utter load of shit.

    • Also perpetuates the idea that guys are the cheaters, and not women…bullshit…

    • I think “masculinity” is not just one set of traits involving “guy things” just as femininity doesn’t involve just “girl things.” Most of my interests are more typically masculine than feminine. That doesn’t make me masculine, although a lot of men find what I know and what I do with my time intimidating. All that does is provide information for the improved “picker.” Real masculinity or femininity is about being comfortable with who you are. You know that, I’m sure, but it never hurts to hear that others are smart enough to know you were being gaslighted.

      • Thanks, LJ. It’s a long story, but the more I think about it, the more I think my wife picked me precisely because I wasn’t all that comfortable with who I was, and proceeded to make me even less comfortable to keep me in line.

  • Huh, and here I thought all this time that my ex cheated because he prefers men, and if he can’t boink some dude in the gay bath house, then he prefers the excitement of fucking some other man’s wife. I didn’t realize it was all MY fault for feminizing him so much. I know he started having sex with other men long before he even knew me, and continues to do so long after our divorce, but still, clearly it is my fault.

    Linda Joyce actually reminds me of my ex. A narcissist who knows nothing, but loves to spout out all sorts of bullshit that she thinks smells like roses. Full of that new agey nonsense that so many narcs seem to like, because it’s a great way to sound like you are full of profound wisdom, while actually saying absolutely nothing.

    • Isn’t it Lovely when they Blame YOU for doing things They were At LONG Before you Even KNEW THEY Existed ??

      I Called my EX on the Shit he was Trying to Pin on Me 7 to 12 Years Before I even Knew him.
      I told him he was Insane for that…and I’m Right.

  • I’d never waste my time reading that woman’s article. I think I can deduce that’s she’s probably never felt the pain of having your loved one betray you.

        • ML, I just realized that your name being in blue meant it linked to something (sorta slow like that). I visited your blog. It’s great! I really do wish I was as smart as you. Or brave, or something.

    • She’s too much of a narc to love someone enough to feel the pain.

  • Linda,
    I was kidding earlier about the dress thing. But let me assure you, there was nothing feminine about my ex. This was an NRA-loving, gun-toting, ex-military, back-hair laden, Carharrt wearing moron. (Not sure why I thought all this was so endearing when we met, but alas, my picker is jacked.) I was always the smell-good, pretty wife, never nagged and thought we were a great team. We had kick-ass sex and got along great. Although I admit he wasn’t really my intellectual equal, I THOUGHT we had a pretty happy 11 years. I didn’t care if he didn’t like the same shows as me, I let him watch Steven Seagall in peace. And hell, he always SAID how happy he was so why wouldn’t I believe it?

    But guess what . . . cheaters are gonna cheat. Sometimes, it’s not about reasons, but opportunity. Sometimes I think when you’re dealing with these ultra-males with a probably less than average intelligence level, that’s really all it’s about. To try to decipher WHY they cheat when they have everything they could ever want wrapped up in a bow is over-thinking it.

    That’s why I never fall for these “click-bait” articles. I was “all in” in my marriage as CL would say. I did nothing to destroy it. That is all on him.

    • I think we were married to the same guy. 11 years for me too. If farting, burping, smelling like ass, and enjoying biker gang shows and nonstop sports watching means my husband was feminized, I guess I need to rethink my idea of femininity.

      • Oy . . . always the sports! I swear I learned more about football than my own brother.

    • Yup. Cheaters are going to cheat.

      They have two brains and only enough blood for one of them at a time. If the blood is in the smallest (hmm . . . wait a minute! I digress), the other one better have already made a plan.

      Whatever plant gets watered, grows. I love metaphors and we may as well go back to the gardening aspects of a relationship. I tried to have a nice garden but my x was not good about establishing a perimeter/boundaries so the garden was taken over by vermin.

      He did like the proverbial ho . . . (I crack myself up!)

      That’ll read like a stream of consciousness.

    • It’s bullshit. It’s just a different kind of blameshifting on to the wife. Also, cheating husbands are disconnected husbands. My cheater didn’t want me to be his everything — he wanted a smorgasbord of pussy. I was fully available (isolated even) and respected his career, etc.

      While that advice is fine on how to keep a healthy marriage — yes, make time for each other, admire your husband, have sex, connect — it’s NOT a reason why men cheat. Because women have so many other outlets for connection, and we play by different rules. It’s insulting to men and to women. Cheating is about a lack of character and entitlement.

      • That author has been cheated on and suddenly abandoned herself, and is a marriage and family therapist. The article bothered me too. Her book “Runaway Husbands” was one of the first I read, but her last couple of articles have surprised me in how they seem to be trying to explain things from the cheater’s point of view. I guess I believe cheating is never justified by a husband or a wife, and looking for the cause of cheating is like looking for the reason someone robs a bank. Do we care? No. It’s just wrong.

        • Also, saying that men are frustrated by feeling like they’re not at the top of their wives’ priority list is a weird excuse too. I felt like I was at the bottom of my ex’s priority list, and that definitely contributed to my depression. It didn’t, however, make me go out looking for someone better to screw around with. What it did was keep me perpetually frustrated in trying to connect with him, which led to despair, which led to loss of desire. Then he blamed my lack of desire for the demise of our marriage.

          • God yes. I told my ex all the time that I felt way down at the bottom of his priorities, and he even AGREED with me. In fact, he used my not being a priority as one of the reasons he cheated on me! And yet, I never cheated or even considered cheating.

            Whenever I post here, it reminds me how very, very thankful I am to be out of that nightmare of a marriage. This site is better than Prozac.

          • OMG!!!! I CONSTANTLY told my STBX that in his list of priorities, I was at the absolute rock bottom, right after clipping his toenails.

            Of course, he always complained about me seemingly putting the KIDS before him. I used to try to explain to him that it wasn’t that I was putting the kids before him, it was just that their needs were more immediate and they were dependent on us.

            What a self-centered, self-absorbed, navel-gazing, whiney-assed titty-baby, flaming turd from Satan’s ass! And those are the nicest things I can think to say about him.

              • I would often say when things where all out of whack and he would be off doing what ever, ‘ things are only important to you, if they directly impact you. if not you couldn’t give a shit.”
                to this I would receive the standard answer of ” that is not true, and do you have to swear?’ nothing would change thou because in his view there was nothing wrong except my way of thinking and attitude

      • I couldn’t get past the first paragraph, according to that description; I was not a girl and I am not a woman, WOW! I must have been masculinized somehow, why the hell didn’t I cheat?

  • If feminizing your man turned him into Eddie Izzard I WOULD TRY IT!!

  • These heteronormative generalizations make me want to puke. Read a stinkin book or take a stinkin class Linda Joyce but stop spewing your poorly thought-out opinions as science.

    • I hate to say it, but a lot of the comments on this post seems to have one thing in common with Linda Joyce — the assumption than being “feminine” is the worst thing a man could possibly be. We’ve all been cheated on here — why the weird bitterness that your exes peed sitting down and shit?

      • ANR….I don’t think I’m hearing that.
        My X certainly had a feminine side and I completely went along with it. I thought it endearing. He loved to shop more than I did. He’d bring home the flooring samples and pick out the cabinet hardware. We went grocery shopping every week together. If I wanted to go to the mall, he was the first one in the car.

        He was also a sports nut of extreme proportions which I could care less about. I used to tell people that “I loved my husband so much I went to a Nascar race.”

        I pretty much went along with him on everything until he decided to stick his dick in some other woman. A Really Ugly One. My daughter would ask me how I felt being left for such a dog. I really didn’t have an answer. It all felt like hell. What difference if the OW is butt ugly or gorgeous? No matter, the pain was a mother fucker.

        • I’m not hearing it from everyone, Syringa. But I’m hearing it. And, by the by, I don’t really get how a lot of the examples people give (and Im not trying to pick on you) have anything to do with femininity or masculinity,

          • ANR, in my case, I gave the example of my STBX to show just how absurd the “feminizing” could be. I don’t equate peeing standing up or sitting down with gender traits. It’s a case of WTFever is okay with the individual.

            I am fairly certain that STBX feels masculine, whatever that may be or however he may define it. I certainly don’t see him as feminine.

            The charge that men cheat because they’ve been feminized is just absurd–just as absurd as saying that women cheat because they’ve been masculinized.

      • The fact that my Husband was feminine was never really an issue for me I actually found it endearing compared to some of the macho pricks I had dated and yes most of them cheated also.
        I really could not give a crap if my STBX came out tomorrow and stated he’s OUT. And I think at a lot of what is being said here is not to bash at Men with feminine qualities as most of the women who have posted today and like myself, we poses some masculine qualities also. But these qualities do not define us and they do not over ride our brain capacity and they are not excuses for being a cheater. No matter how manly or effeminate a person is is not the direct result of their spouses behavior either. For me todays post has allowed me to vent the crap I have been enduring since d’day for my STBX cheating behavior as I have had it said to me that my husbands actions where not intimate but purely physical and a direct result of my oversteping my bounds as a woman. Cheating, gaslighting, and blameshifting are the real issues here.

        • You’re right about what the real issues are, Sammie. I’m a little sensitive on this topic is all.

  • Linda says men don’t like ‘desperate women?’ Well, then she has NEVER met my X’s OW. The most desperate, butt ugly, pathetic piece of shit you could ever lay eyes on. She went after ANY man she thought might have her. Married or not. One married man told me that she was ‘the most shameless and brazen woman he had EVER met! She didn’t give two shits whose life she blew up going after what she thought she was ‘entitled’ to. There were several married men who rebuffed her advances but my Mr. Sparkles is incapable of resisting anything that wants to fuck him. No matter how gross and disgusting they are.

    • Ditto with my Sparkles and his OW, Syringa. Desperation is a requirement for being an OW/OM in the first place.

    • again, word. desperate and ugly from the inside out. Married (cheated on first to marry his brother, then cheated w my h – hee haw!) and any man in a suit was fair game. Especially fond of idiotic lawyers (ambulance chasers as per her line of work) and idiotic barely successful ceos (like mine, if she saw the bank acct, she would have run). Used flirtation to make up for what she lacked in smarts and looks. Perfect at mirroring and flattering all men and due to typing tourettes, liked to communicate constantly and be responded to immediately. Even my asswipe shakes his head in disbelief, while I remind him that she was in fact his schmoopie. You can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube shithead. Now leave me alone as I dig a secret hole out of this prison with my pudding spoon.

        • I KNOW, this is all hilarious!!

          “Now leave me alone as I dig a secret hole out of this prison with my pudding spoon.”

  • My coward ex feminized himself. I just knew if I hung in there long enough, a real man would emerge from his petulant, navel-gazing, mama’s boy shell. So I took up the slack and did the chores that he refused to do, many of which made me feel less feminine. My ex made me feel like less of a woman, because he was so weak.

    And he cheated on me.

    Huhn. She can have him. Me thinks she does even less than he does. Makes him feel super manly.

    Just, ick.

    • Hon, Never Let a guy Make you feel Less Feminine cause his Not Handling Business made YOU Do it.
      You’re Not LESS of a Woman…He was just a ” Bitch ” in Male Skin.

      • Right, you are.

        That he didn’t bring out my most feminine side, or play man to my woman, doesn’t make me a lesser woman.

        It felt shitty. It’s over.


  • “Today’s article is from that respected peer-reviewed journal tabloid “The Daily Mail”. . .”

    Sums it up perfectly. I will go ahead and be the academic elitist who calls the bullshit. It is this kind of rubbish that is frankly insulting to men, reducing them to primates who operate on primitive hard-wiring, victims to their own nature. I expect more out of men. . . And astrologers.

    I also think ChumpLady has an unresolved conflict with Bruce Springsteen. Don’t give in. Bob Seger is far bossier than The Boss.

    • Maybe cause Bruce is a cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater . . . 😉

      • Is he really?! I honestly just think his music sucks. I realize I just made a lot of enemies, but Bruce Springsteen is like eating corn flakes. It won’t kill you but is a waste of a meal.

        • Yep. Cheated on his first wife to nab the chick in his band, Patty What’s-her-name, and then cheated on Patty What’s-her-name with someone else. Patty won him back in a pick me dance I think though. Not really sure, it’s Bruce Springsteen so . . . yawn.

      • THIS Bob song makes me cry now. I’m a detroiter raised on seger, Mitch Ryder, Motown. The song used to simply be a song. Now it has a hell of a lot of meaning.

        • I always loved that Bob made a ton of money then took time off – a long time – so he could be home with his kids while they grew up. That’s a real man.

      • You know those songs that are so seminal that hearing them years later makes you go completely still inside, with an almost overwhelming nostalgia and awareness of time passing? Bob Seger’s Main Street and Night Moves are two of them for me. Love this one, too.

    • The Bob Seger bobble head from the Thanksgiving Day parade in Detroit. 🙂
      Bob Seger

  • Laughing right now, because when I initially confronted Asshat about his affair ( I didn’t yet know of the decade long fuckfest with the other people, etc..) he said in anger that I EMASCULATED him. My apparent ” feminization” of him led him and his dick into many of the black holes of his fuckbuddy.

    My response to his ridiculous statement was that he might as well take credit for ” de-feminizing” me since we hadn’t had sex in a looooong time.

    I’ve since learned that we was parroting the OW bullshit back to me. This crap is a load of denial-based cheater rationalization.

    • ANC,

      I could have written your post. I got the same claim, that I “emasculated” him. And I’m also pretty sure that that was the ready-made excuse fed to him by the OW.

      It’s a ridiculous, manipulative trick, of course. Because the list of things I did to “emasculate” him included:
      -Enjoying my job
      -Opening the door for myself, and not waiting for him to open it
      -Doing home repairs
      -Going to grad school
      -Having my own political opinions
      -Not “letting” him quit his job after we just bought a house
      -Insisting on not having a gun in the house that I co-own and live in

      It’s bullshit, of course. I was guilty of being capable and having boundaries. You’d think I insisted on picking out his clothes or setting his curfew. And the sad thing is, I tried to fix my behavior for 2 years while he continued to lie and cheat. My behavior had nothing to do with it. No correlation.

      • Wow so your pretty normal also 😉 No guns in the house & making him go to work WOW so bad BAD yea that would have pushed me over the edge also sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh !!!
        Entitled is the word I keep reading on here over & over it so fits and makes so much sense.

        • Thank you for writing that, MichaelD. Truth be told, I still sometimes feel a twang of guilt/self-reproach for the items on that list. I’m a well-trained chump.

          But you’re right: It has nothing to do with us. It’s so obvious that these cheaters feel entitled to do whatever they please, and will use our normal behavior to justify it.

  • ” Hisinterests have migrated and he’s not the man she thought he was. He wasn’t lying – he was just doing what made sense for him to do at the time to stay.”

    Ok. This is a direct quote from the Psych. Today article linked in a comment. Asshat stated this to me almost verbatim!

    His IC and the MC dude yelled BULLSHIT on the above thought. The author of this article probably is a cheater himself, because this a ANOTHER load of crap rationalizations used by cheaters in denial. They CAN’T be bad guys, only guys whose needs are not being met by their spouses. This statement is a classic example of crappy life coping skills. A true blame shifting of the shitty behavior onto the spouse.

    • Of course ANC. What these rationalassers forget is that they needed to tell their spouse so that we could make good decisions for ourselves. There is no justification for hostage taking. Jail time.

      But of course since we don’t matter, it’s hardly worth bringing up the hostage bits.

      One day the shame of their dehuminazation will reign down on their bodies from head to toe washing them with a humiliation that will feel like a million heat lamps around their face and chest. (cursing them gives me a release–although it is not really, I know—I get it from my grandmother, she was fond of saying things like: “May he rot in hell for all eternity,” in the voice of the God of Deuteronomy. Grandma, “may a snake bit the deception off his face.”

      I have a request for another post: Let’s do a: how do you get the thoughts of humiliation out of your mind. Any descriptions of what people did? My thoughts cannot be medicated away and they tire me out with shame. I know he should feel shame but I do.

        • Ha! A thousand heat lamps. I am sorry you feel humiliation and shame. I feel like an episode of Jerry Springer. It’s so outrageous.

          My mom has some very strong Italian old school voodoo beliefs. She would put a curse on him. I’ve already kind of done that …… Besides the abdominal hernia, I’m waiting to see what happens next.

        • Thought of that too – what do I do with this shame and humiliation? It’s weighin’ me down to the point where sometimes I do say to myself “well self you are capable of being a royal bitch, so maybe you are to blame…” fuck that shit, I want to take that shame, throw it in a garbage bag and dump it on the lawn (here in the city where about 75 other houses stare at us) with the rest of his crap. It should be his weight to bear.

    • Vikki Stark who wrote the Psychology Today article is neither an infidelity apologist nor has she ever said that one spouse is in any way responsible for the infidelity of the other. Stark focuses on informed recovery, which seems to be the best antidote to bitterness and stagnation.

      • I’m stagnated right now, true. Bitter. Nope. Just angry. Not super ragey like 8 months ago.

        Tell me more about informed recovery.

        • ANC,

          It might be easier to read at Stark’s site. She focuses a lot on recovery.

          “Informed recovery” is just a general term I use to refer to learning specific behavioral strategies to change how we feel by first changing how we think and act.

          There are many therapeutic approaches to counseling. I like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or CBT. It causes us to challenge preconceived notions about ourselves and why we behave the way we do.

          CBT requires a highly skilled therapist and a motivated client who is willing to invest time and effort. It is a tremendous amount of work and (written) self-monitoring but can produce astonishing and life changing results.

          I do not in any way mean this to sound cruel, but someone who stayed for years and years with a blatant serial cheater (or any kind of abuser for that matter) has issues of their own which are just as serious as the cheater’s issues. And, that person needs more than just a passing nod from a friendly listener in order to “fix their picker.”

          More info:

          Samples of CBT worksheets:

          • I did some CBT work early after Dday. In retrospect it wasnt the right time to take it on, as what I really needed to do was deal with the trauma, but it helped quite a bit and I plan on doing more.

        • I am definitely “bitter, party of one” and still super angry 6 months out even with therapy & artificial meh.

          • This is all helpful to discuss ANR, Current Chump and I am a Rockstar. Thank you for Stark’s info and CBT links, notyou.

            I have a development to share. So, I accepted an invitation to present a paper in Izmir Turkey (where I am right now! It’s 3:14 in the morning!!) The conference entitled “International Conference on Gender and Law” was sponsored by the London Center for Social Studies. I met amazing people and a couple of fellow chumps (one, a Muslim woman who immigrated to London) Her story of leaving an abuser really inspired me. I also got some great feedback from the paper I presented and was asked to submit for journal. I found a kindred spirit in a woman from Azerbaijan and overshared with someone who ended up being a life coach from San Fransisco. We had a few hours talk about rage.

            I think it is the atmosphere. I love Turkey, the conference and I met just the right people. I think I am now able to commit to shift my perspectives.

            New ideas:

            Ever time I rage or get angry I am giving the cheaters more of my life and time. I have connected to a purpose in my life here again. I want to be a person who makes this world a safe place and speaks with insight. Anger makes me sloppy, but I also needed to see the rage that was there all along so that I could make a decision about how to be in relation to my rage. I told cheater exactly what he has done. Now it is time to cool it down. Cheater gets more power when I am raging by myself. My son gets less of me and needs me to be my most clear robust self—focusing on cheater-mess takes me away from who I am and what I am here for.

            Also, this life coach talked about intuition–my thoughts that know what is what. I have this and I know what is best to do in any situation. Right now it is best to move away from shame and toward my strength.

            She talked about distinguishing emotion (shame, anger) by the sensations I feel and to act not in reaction to these feelings but from what I know. Moving away from what causes me shame so I can build a life with good supportive people around me.

            It’s time to feel good Chump Nation! It took me going to Turkey to make a real shift (I had been working in therapy for a year and was still raging every. single. day—for hours and hours) No more letter writing in my head, I commit to that and will gently focus my attention to what is going on for me now and what I want to be doing.

            This life coach said I have been raging for a WHOLE YEAR. It’s too much. I have to make a decision.

            So, Ms. rage and shame: you served me well by hitting home who I should stay away from and the relationships I should cut off. I ignored you for a long time and you came out as an eruption and I could no longer ignore you anymore. Now, I must really cut off from these monsters and parasites to get to into my own.

            Justice, I am throwing you to the wind. I am not God and I cannot possibly enact the justice in response to my intense dehumanization and bullying and the community that had its hand in ripping me away from my child. But I can act with intelligence, insight, deep love and passion using my talents in the world to make it a better place, at least around me.

            I bless all of us to let our formidable and insightful souls and intuitions take great shape in the world.

            There is no shame. We have done nothing wrong. Time to radically disconnect from toxic and appreciate that we would never fuck people around as we were fucked around. We left and they have to live with the consequences, whether they are able to see them or not.

            The biggest consequence is: They don’t get US anymore.

            Power to the people. Please know that you have a friend in me, if only a virtual friend for the moment.

            Thank you Chump Lady for this excellent forum for insight and healing. Can’t wait to read your book and give it as gifts to people who would spread the word.

  • Men and Boys……

    There are MEN who Don’t Cheat…

    and there’s Boys who Like to Play Grown Up, who DO Cheat…


  • I am so sick of giving these lying pieces of shit excuses for why they do what they do. Let’s not let them take responsibility for their choices, because cheating is a choice they make and they do it knowing fully well the outcome will be one of devastation for their 5 minutes of fun. Yeah I know. Probably more like 2, but I’ll be generous with this one.

    Stop with the sex addict. Stop with the wife is at fault. Stop with what we do or don’t do to MAKE them cheat. No one MADE them cheat. They chose to do it.

    My cheater NEVER apologized, not once. Oh, he gave me lip service and how he never thought it would end up this way. What way is that? Me finally getting smart and divorcing your stupid ass? Me holding you accountable for your sins?

    Yes. Just what we need. Another smarmy ass stupid woman thinking she has the answer to everything when in reality, she doesn’t know shit.

    • I shocked mine the other day by serving divorce papers. He didn’t see that coming. He gave that half assed “I’m sorry your so angry” but not “I’m sorry for what I did to you”. I have never gotten that and doubt I will

  • I muted my work, scholarship, awards and general outlook on life so that he would not feel ‘less than’ because he was miserable at a job (he insisted on staying at) and a place (he insisted on staying in.) Begged him daily to make changes together because he was so unhappy. I did what you said Linda Joyce. Bad idea. Killed me, really.

    Authentic living is the thing I strive for now. Little steps each day.

  • Hey Tracy! Don’t mock men with menstrual cramps–we have a chump whose exH had “sympathetic” PMS!

  • This article is total crap…….”Men feel too much which is why they shut down?” But they cheat because the OW makes them feel something? WTF is this nutjob talking about!!?? I’m convinced that the only thing stbx cares about is himself (his dick included)

    As far as making stbx feminine-he did that all himself. The total body shaving, the tanning, the sitting down to pee or poopsterbate. He is always looking at himself in the mirror & flexing. Blech! He works out like a madman & wears tight tops. Oh, and don’t get me started on the blingy jewelry either………..He’s like a middle aged version of one of those Jersey Shore dudes

    Midlife crisis entitled loser!

  • Ok, forgive me for oversharing but, reading this I was reminded of the first time we became “intimate”. It was my fault, it went against everything he was raised to believe in blah blah blah. Anyways, I had unzipped him and was feeling around inside and fuck me dead I couldn’t find it. Grope and tug and pause and ….and…..I seriously thought for a minute I was feeling up some girl and my heart stopped. He was petite, a little shorter than me, he did have a bit of beard happening and there weren’t any boobs…..but I swear I thought he was dickless!!!!

    He’d tucked it up there somewhere so that only he could find it! And he never did learn how to use it! But I guess I feminised him right?!

    I earned more than him in the end, I am highly qualified in my field, I was responsible for my home, my children, with finances. Truth is someone had to be responsible and when I left it with him we nearly went under. So I guess I feminised him, right?!

    I wanted sex, I would have been more than willing. I didn’t with hold sex from him…I merely left it up to him in the end. I wanted to see what would happen. He stopped coming to bed let alone initiating anything so I told him to sleep on the couch. More feminising?

    What has he got now? A chicky 27 years younger than him, who might just be dumb enough or deperate enough to worship him and make him feel like a man. But I personally think if you act like a man, you get treated like a man….that is being kind, respectful, supportive, affectionate etc (i never talked to him about how he peed so that argument doesn’t mean much to me). You get from life what you put in and we all deserved better!

    • Oh yeah and I only gave him 3 daughters but now he has a son. Chicky really has made him a man! I might have feminised him and I’m not responsible for making him stupid! Dumb fuckface!

  • I feel like Lot’s wife who looked back. After reading all the CL posts, yes, I clicked on the link, and yeah, I read the article. The first thing I want to know is, who the hell is Binky Felstead. ???

    Anyway, it seems the biggest problem with this chick’s study is the conflation of gender and power (let’s not even open up the economics door). I do know that when things started to noticeably go south with my ex was when he was made redundant at his job a couple years into our relationship. Prior to that, he’d earned a six-figure salary and made a point of telling me before we moved in together that he was bringing “the lion’s share” to our partnership. He actually said that, and I actually moved in anyway. (face palm)

    So when he was out of work, there I was with my lowly academic’s salary, which had previously been the subject of some implied scorn. But that lowly salary was paying his mortgage, while he looked for work (I later found out he spent more time looking for women on the side than looking for a job). You’d think that having more financial clout would have given me more power in the house. But the exact opposite happened. The more established I became in my job–and I got tenured shortly after–the more unstable things seemed at home. Of course there was a lot of other shit going on, including a terminal illness, but I just couldn’t win. The harder I worked, the less leverage I had, and the more withdrawn he became. Basically, he just disappeared from the relationship. So I started overcompensating. I started doing shit I never would have done before, like iron all his shirts. Alphabetize the pantry. I’ve always been a neat freak, but I went into hyper-drive, and when I wasn’t scrubbing out a sink or toilet, I had a steam mop in my hands. The yard work? Hello! That was me, too. This is all with a 4-hour daily commute, a full teaching schedule, a shitload of marking, and 4 kids in the house. Plus my musical commitments and the 3-ring circus that was my girls’ dad. You can imagine how the bottom dropped out for me when I found out what my X had been up to the whole time, while I’d been running myself ragged and trying to get his attention. I feel stunned and ashamed at the $500 I spent on a kick-ass dress to wear at a fundraiser, and he barely even looked at me (I swear I will wear this dress again and reclaim its mojo). At one point I was actually self-harming because I felt so invisible and so powerless, and no matter what I did, he wouldn’t or couldn’t snap out of it. No, I didn’t gain weight or “let myself go” (not that that would have excused any of his behaviour). To the contrary, I looked better at the height of all this craziness than when we’d initially met, even though inside I felt a skillion times worse.

    So yeah. Did I ‘feminize’ him, or did he just check out? I think the whole thing is really a conversation about power. Who has it, who doesn’t, who’s willing to share equally, who isn’t.

    • FMT,

      I totally relate — I jumped through so many damned hoops trying to win my husband back. Exhausting. And then to be cheated on and blamed for it….Ugh. It’s beyond abusive.

    • Spot on. My wife was very resentful that she contributed the “lion’s share” of the down payment on our house. The fact that I made the mortgage payments thereafter barely registered with her. The fact that for most of our marriage I brought in most of the income barely registered with her. Or that I took on the “second shift” so she could work on getting her accounting designation, Or that she just plain doesn’t do housework. Or, really, anything she doesn’t particularly feel like doing. These are things that are just owed her.

      But times my business isn’t bringing in much revenue? Oh, Jesus Christ I better have the house clean and dinner ready when she gets home. And I better damn well listen to her inane office stories.

      All about power.

  • I confess. I feminised him.

    I worked hard and got promotions to put a roof over our head and feed and clothe us all. I got up on the roof toucan the leaves out of our gutters. I learned to wield power tools to do maintenance around the house, and I let him sit on his lazy arse and watch television and go out for lunch and coffee with his ‘co-workers’.

    He was right. I am a ball breaker! No wonder he had to siphone of household money behind my back to constantly upgrade his muscle car. He was compensating for his lost masculinity.

    I’m surprised he could even manage to get it up with the Amazing Skank Woman. I thought I had him thoroughly pussy-whipped but obviously didn’t feminise him enough.

    Maybe next time I’ll try castration.

    • …and before you all ask what the hell a ‘roof toucan’ is and why I was getting up on it (oh the imagery!) may I correct that: ‘roof to clean’

  • My soon to be x once gave me a socket set and a spirit level for my birthday as a way of encouraging me to get more involved with my hobbies. I was learning to french polish by the way not build a bird cage. and he got the shits when I was pissed at him as though the had moved mountains for the amazing gift and I was being a heartless bitch for rejecting it.

    And the mind games continued…………… Linda J, here is some advise, GET A REAL FUCKING JOB AND STOP SPROUTING YOUR SELF JUSTIFIED SHIT AS IF IT IS THE GOSPEL!

    yep I think I am done now. thanks

  • This article reads like it was bashing men, we do know that women cheat just as much as men do, right?

    Damn, even the comments full of man haters. Yeesh.

  • “Extra-marital sex is a release for men, not a betrayal.” I don’t know how to address that statement, except maybe You Can’t Fix Stupid. You just can’t.

    She saves lives? I’m sorry, did I read that correctly? Does she tightly wrap the heads of celebrities and int’l business tycoons in plastic, consult her chart, then give CPR? Idiot.

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