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Dear Chump Lady, The OW calls me for advice!

obama_friendDear Chump Lady,

I have a unique situation that I would appreciate your take on. My husband began an affair (his THIRD affair that I know of) with his best friend’s fiancé, after said friend died in a helicopter crash. My husband met the OW for the first time at his friend’s funeral in August 2011. I was unable to go the the funeral because I had an urgent medical issue (brain tumor) at the time and was seeing several specialists to plan surgery. I didn’t find out about the affair until August 2012. My medical issues were resolved by that time and life was “normal.”

I found out when the OW sent me an anonymous message. From the get go, I had the gut feeling my husband had taken advantage of her during a particularly emotional time (that’s also how our relationship began). I’m not excusing her behavior. She knew he was married and she was very hateful to me to try to shove me out of the picture. Long story short, he wasn’t willing to leave me. I consulted the BEST attorney, formulated a game plan, stayed with him for 6 months, paid off our debts, outlasted the OW (she dumped him when he wouldn’t leave me and our family), saved a little money back, and then filed.

He about lost it when I filed, because she had dumped him, he lost me too, and that left him with no one. He called her and begged her to call me and convince me that nothing had ever happened between the two of them. Despite the fact that he had admitted to the affair in MC. She was dumb enough to agree to it, so she called me and told me nothing had ever happened, which we both knew was a lie.

I ended up having a long conversation with her where I “thanked her” for having the guts to tell me he was cheating on me for the third time. This knowledge allowed me to recognized it had been a miserable marriage riddled with cheating.

She has since friend requested me on Facebook. She agreed with me that my ex-husband has serious personality issues (he’s a cluster B) and we actually had a really nice laugh at his expense, because he used the same lines on both of us. Things went pretty well for a while. We were FB friends and nothing else because she lives in a town three hours away from me. Fast forward 10 months, and now she has become friends with my ex-husband on FB and they share inappropriate jokes in a public forum. She rarely contacts me and if she does, it’s to ask my advice on her current relationship, as well as parenting issues that she’s having.

I am a counselor, so she likes my help in these areas. I don’t know how to continue with this relationship or if I even should. On one hand, I feel like I need to keep her as a “superficial” friend because I fear she may get back with my ex-husband some day. If she ends up being around my children, I want that to be as amicable as possible for them. It also gives me joy that it bothers my ex-husband that she and I are friends. Although, I’m not sure what kind of a picture she paints of our friendship to him since they are friends, too. She tells me that I will always have a friend in her because we both know what it’s like to be in a relationship with someone like him.

My question is: is she really my friend? Do I keep maintaining this friendship for the sake of what could be in the future? For the sake of irritating my ex? Should I just stop taking her calls? Every time I see the two of them joking around on Facebook he gets under my skin. It makes me wonder what she tells him in order for him to be her friend my friend too. She can’t possibly be telling him things that she’s telling me (i.e., he’s a crazy narcissist) or he wouldn’t want to be her friend. Any words of wisdom you have are greatly appreciated. I should also mention I had to put a restraining order on him because he was stalking me. So I have no contact with him to be able to hear his version of their relationship.

Struggling Chump

Dear Struggling Chump,

Is the woman who fucked your husband your friend? NO. Not unless you have really, really low standards for friends. By this reasoning the guy who checks your gas meter could be your bestie, just by virtue of the fact he has not fucked your ex, and you cordially nod at one another. This woman is NOT your friend, okay? She’s some kind of narcissistic mindfuck like your ex.

You seem to think she’s some ally in untangling his skein. She agreed with me that my ex-husband has serious personality issues (he’s a cluster B). She tells me that I will always have a friend in her because we both know what it’s like to be in a relationship with someone like him. From where I sit, you’re both still engaged in a pick-me dance over your ex. She tells you he’s had multiple affairs (HA! You only THINK you won the pick me dance!), you get upset when she Facebook friends him too, but think you may have him beat on the triangulation. It also gives me joy that it bothers my ex-husband that she and I are friends.

SC — I want you to walk away from the triangle and repeat after me: “I AM NOT A HYPOTENUSE.”

The OW enjoys the drama triangle. And you’re of use to her as free counseling kibbles. Oh, can I field the relationship and parenting questions for you?

“Hey bitch, don’t sleep with married men. Spend more time raising your children and less time stirring up shit on Facebook. That will be $180, please, made payable to the Adulterous Fuckbuddy Redemption Society.”

You have a restraining order on your ex. You have a restraining order on your ex. Read that sentence again. You have a restraining order on your ex. Why on earth would you want to hear “his version of their relationship”? What part of legally enforced no contact do you fail to understand? It goes both ways this NC.

Curious about their relationship? They are fuckbuddies who fucked you over. They enjoy centrality and drama at your expense. And “inappropriate jokes on public forums.” You don’t need to be anywhere near these people. On Facebook, in your head, on your street.

And consider this — anything you could learn from the OW as friend or otherwise is completely untrustworthy. She cheated with your then husband, and agreed to lie about the affair for him. You can’t believe a thing she says.

So why would you try to control this? Who she might be to your kids some day is a flimsy excuse for staying tangled up in their drama. YOU DON’T CONTROL THAT. You don’t control who she is to your kids. To your ex. To anybody, including yourself. She’s not going to give you a whit of consideration on the basis of “friendship” if it stands between her and something she wants. She’s already DEMONSTRATED that by fucking your husband.

So do you really think she’s going to be extra nice to your kids? She didn’t consider them when she was the OW, and she didn’t consider you either. She hasn’t seen the error of her ways because HELLO she’s still friends with that Cluster B fucker. He’s disordered, but not so much so that they can’t be pals.

There is no “friendship” here to maintain. You just unfriend her on Facebook, turn off the mindfuck channel, and get on with your life without them.

No contact — no drama! You can DO THIS.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Friends don’t sleep with friends spouses.

    Why isn’t your ex-husband BLOCKED on FB?

    I could ALMOST see being her friend. In the sense of a 1980’s movie, The Ex Wives Club. But real life isn’t a movie. If you don’t like drama, block it from your life.

  • “They enjoy centrality and drama at your expense. ”


    This is why you block her, right now! No explanations necessary, just instant no contact.

  • Step 1: Establish Healthy Boundaries (apparently missing–maybe see a therapist and work on this?).

    Step 2. Enforce Healthy Boundaries. “I’m pretty sure enforcing the boundary is the most important part of the boundary.”– Jerry Seinfeld

    I guess I am awestruck by the apparent lack of boundaries more than anything.

    NO CONTACT is how you would enforce the boundary in this case, but I am having real trouble getting my head around why so many basic boundaries seem to be missing here.

    If some folks you didn’t know started camping out on your lawn, would you think, “Well, first I must get to know them?”, or would you call the cops because… your property line is a boundary, and they are transgressing your boundary?

  • I think what is frightening about this post is how we can get lured back, even when we’ve got divorced and therefore in theory with a pass back to normality.

    I suspect it’s an understandable but flawed attempt to get something back (power, self-esteem?) from the ‘… fuckbuddies who fucked us over.’ Another few rounds in the drama ring and maybe we get to be the winner.

    As someone who was betrayed by a trusted colleague and an untrustworthy) spouse the desire to right the wrong is powerful because of the overwhelming unfairness of it all. I can feel it now, over a year out, nearly divorced, 300 miles away. And with the easy click of Fuckbook, you can be soon swirling in the sea of shit from whence the star crossed drama erupted (in my case). If you want all that drama back that is and re-engage with the enemy, because they are definitely not friends. They are co- conspirators in your downfall- then and now if you let them back in again.

    There is only one solution and it is as CL says to walk away and stay away. In my case I deleted my FB account and have no intention of creating a new one. It’s not that I’m not curious but it won’t do me any good and is one step to becoming the stalking crazy ex. As I said in another comment, I will be single, not divorced. I am no-one’s ex anything. I’m done, it’s gone and I’m not going back. Do the same Struggling Chump.

    • In what is a timely update, have just had email from my solicitor saying I am now officially divorced. Yay. A big thank you to Chump Lady as I was dithering until February of this year because of a very strong Hopium addiction. Despite moving 300 miles away and trying to do No Contact and hearing how he was in love with OW and wasn’t going to let her go ( creepy red flag for her there….) I was hanging on until I found this blog and realised the only way out – was out. Anyway as I am now officially a ‘single lady’- my message to the XH- should he ever resurface- is to paraphrase Beyonce- “If you liked it then you should’ve kept a ring on it.” Wuh uh oh.

      • YAY MIKKY! 😀

        Congrats and big best wishes for your wonderful new life 😀 (Hope you plan to have a big party to celebrate).

        • Thank you Jayne. Not sure about party, but definitely feel I’ve accomplished something – freedom- as opposed to losing something which is how I thought I’d feel.

      • Mikky – Congratualtions!! Mine was final last year July 3rd, my slightly early “Independance Day”. I remember how I felt, I felt good, accomplished, strong… and a little sad. But, I was ready to let it all go. I hope you feel something similar. I did go out that night with a good friend and made a toast to my bright future. But never really felt like a party. Huge congratulations to you.

      • Yay for you!

        Things get generally better once you abandon denial, IMO.

        It’ll make you wonder why you didn’t pull the plug sooner when that reality, tranquility, and real joy begin to become common again.

      • Milky- your Ex whatever has Rick Rolled the OW. Never gonna give you up. Never gonna let you go. Never gonna run away and desert you.

      • Congratulations, Mikky! From here on, you will be astounded at the staggering clarity of how you were treated so poorly.

        • Thanks to all for congratulations. Chump Lady is a collective enterprise where we get help and pass it on. I got divorced because I saw here that that was the sane option for an insane situation. I hope it gives hope and courage to someone else-like me- who couldn’t get clarity.

      • I LOVE facebook, lol. I have siblings in four states and it is by far the best way to keep up with them. Plus lots of intown relatives I dont see much. I dont do drama though, or politics. Some people, I select Don’t show in News Feed , cause they post shit I don’t agree with, like my brother, other brother’s girlfriend, etc. I also look at lots of cat photos, lol.

      • I hate FB and use it minimally to keep up with my sister. In fact I delete my account a few times a year, particularly around my birthday because I don’t like phony birthday greetings. If FB exposed me to ANYTHING my ex was doing I’d deactivate it forever. Shudder.

    • Absolutely. Block them both. Then they can’t see your FB either. End of story. He cheated on you while you had a brain tumor. And like the Jackass, he picks up women at funerals. Just despicable. It’s likely that she was your FB “friend” because she wanted him to hoover her back. Which he did. End of story. Go on, live your beautiful life and enjoy your kids. Without you in the triangle, someone over there will be looking for an other person to add to the mix.

      • You make an excellent point that I hadn’t realized. She probably did use me to get his attention. I have never confronted her on any if this. It wouldn’t do any good and there’s no point. I’m good at helping others but when it’s my life and I’m emotionally invested, I lack clarity. Thank you for this!

        • SC – The thought that struck me most reading your letter is exactly what you have just said here: “when it’s my life and I’m emotionally invested, I lack clarity.” I was thinking how easily many of us reading your letter could see, but you were obviously in a bit of a fog. I think that is so true for so many of us and why this site is so important. CL is SO GOOD at CLARITY. And with the rest of us chiming in, well… the fog lifts pretty quick.

          Please go NC and BLOCK both of them so they cannot see you and you cannot see them. It’s time to let the last strings of connection go. It’s hard. It’s really hard. You will be so glad you did.
          Big Hugs.

  • As long as you are friends with her in any form, on Facebook or elsewhere, in any capacity, your guard will be down, and she will have access to information which she can use against you if she feels like it in the future. Information (knowledge) is power. Don’t give her any more of yours.

    If you have a restraining order against your ex, then he is probably angry about it. And they are friends to the extent of joking around inappropriately on a public forum? Not a good scenario at all.

    Protect yourself. They’ve caused you enough grief and trouble. She may have alerted you to the misery of your marriage, but she didn’t do it as a personal favor, remember that. I think you value peace and you do what you can to promote it. That’s not what those two are about.

  • Congrats on being brain tumor free. That must have been terrible. Now rid yourself of these soul tumors and rock on woman! Much luck to you.

    • “Soul tumors”

      Yes. Exactly! Sometimes euphemisms are the most accurate way to say something.

      Also, I think with APs as with cheating exes, some want a friendly relationship as proof what what they did wasn’t so bad.

      Fuck that noise. If she asks why you go silent, I give her more silence. If you get into a situation where you have to say something, I’d go with, “Given that you fucked my husband and broke up my family, I think you can imagine how I truly feel about you.” Then walk away without ever looking back.

  • Great advice CL!

    I was in a similar situation. The week I found out about the last affair, the OW came to me crying about how she had been duped by my now ex. (She knew he was married and she knew me because she was often at our house for dinner parties, etc.)

    Here is my go to list in navigating this messiness:
    1. Ask yourself — what is HEALTHY for you?
    2. Ask yourself — WHY do you need to prove to the world you are a nice person?
    3. Ask yourself — is this friendship/relationship BENEFICIAL to me (i.e., do I gain from it)? Would you be friends in any other situation?

    This woman is not a true friend. You know this. It was OK for you to connect at some point, but it is unnecessary to continue. You do not need to prove you are a nice person to her.

    Also, you should question why she would be friends with the ex on FB. This is not high school.

    I echo the others here. Block her and also your ex on FB. I did that immediately. You do not need to see their feeds.

    For that matter, make sure that all of your FB privacy settings are set at the highest. Get someone to help you if need be.


  • Whoa! Your life is not the recent Cameron Diaz movie. Not even a semblance (come on, at least in the movie they fed him estrogen, chlamydia meds and royally screwed him back over with the bank stuff as he deserved).

    Your ex-husband has a restraining order against him. As long as you are friends with the OW he has access to you. There’s a restraining order for a reason.

    “She can’t possibly be telling him things that she’s telling me (i.e., he’s a crazy narcissist) or he wouldn’t want to be her friend.”
    Exactly. Stop spackling!

    “If she ends up being around my children, I want that to be as amicable as possible for them.”
    Keyword: IF. IF she ends up being around your children THAT is when you play the amicable masquerade dance. There isn’t any music playing right now. Why are you dancing?

    CL is spot on.

    • Why does she even need to be amicable? She needs to be absent. X and I are not supposed to talk to each other unless it is through email. When he tried to approach me at a parenting related function, I put my hand up and cut him off, “Us having a verbal conversation is not a good idea. Do not approach me again.” He put his head down (tail between his legs), said, “very good”, and walked away. YAY ME!!! Those are some boundaries!!! (sorry – but kinda proud of myself here.) Anyway, if his fuck buddy were to approach me, I’d say, “You’ll have to put that in an email to me.” Walk away. The first time she contacts you after you cut her off, simply say, “I don’t feel comfortable in this relationship anymore. Please don’t contact me again.” From there, it’s NC. If they do get together and she is around your children. Don’t make waves or contact. Let them look like the crazies and you just deal with your kiddos.

  • My ex’s OW tried to friend my on Facebook twice, and sent me a stupid little “sorry” note, all while aggressively pursuing my ex and stabbing me in the back. I didn’t really know her — had met her briefly once many years before as she was a friend of a friend. She was a piece of work, that one.

    I didn’t friend her or respond, and that paid dividends in the long run. Why, oh why would you ever think that I want to be your friend? On what planet is having sex with someone’s husband and cutting you down to him at every opportunity an invitation to be my buddy? It’s just bizarre. It did help me see that she is a deranged individual pretty early on. It took me a couple more years to see that my ex was just as deranged. They truly were meant for each other.

    I blocked them both on Facebook a couple of years ago and stopped checking her Twitter feed at the same time. I want no part of that shit show, frankly. Life has been better ever since.

    Struggling Chump: No Contact is a beautiful thing, and it includes passive viewing of status updates and stupid online interactions between two nimrods who thrive on making you crazy. You’re better than them. Block them forever.

    • Think Mata Hari. These people HATE not knowing and being in the loop of people they consider to be their competition. You know, keep your enemies close……

      If you can’t manage to go NC totally, at least recognize THEY ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND, and feed them all sorts of insane untruths and bullshit. Never, ever take them into your confidence.

  • Dear Struggling,
    I was raped when I was a child.
    What would you think if I carried on a friendship with my rapist?

    ‘nough said……

    Forge on, Nation……ForgeOn!

  • I should clarify- I DO have him blocked. I USED to have her blocked until the conversation we had where she apologized and asked me if she could friend me. At the time, she seemed very insistent that he was a heartless jerk who went around taking advantage of women who were emotionally vulnerable. I genuinely felt she had seen the error of her ways. I DO NOT Facebook stalk him. Honestly, I don’t want to see or hear about anything he posts. And When people try to tell me what he’s posting, I shut them down. I’ve honestly thought about deleting my account but I enjoy interacting with friends that I wouldn’t see otherwise. The only time I see stuff he comments on is on her page and it’s because she mentions him by name. I’ve decided that I’m not taking anymore phone calls from her. She is a train wreck. She always has relationship problems and she has a lot of anger. I just can’t fix that for her. I am in counseling. This is tough to recover from because I did love him. Giving up hope that he would change and divorcing him was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. He literally cried and begged me not to go through with it at the courthouse. He told me all the things us chumps love to hear, “I love you so much!” “I made a huge mistake!” “I’m going to counseling. I will do ANYTHING to make this work!” I sucked it up, plugged my ears, and trudged forward. I bawled after court, but he didn’t see it. Her being sorry was validation to me. I appreciate these responses!! They are helpful.

    • If she had “seen the error of her ways” she WOULD NOT be blaming the affair on him. Period. Poor pitiful little fuckbuddy….

        • Pity Vampire. I love it, Chump Lady! And your blog, your drawings, your book, your outlook, etc.

          My cheater’s co whore is a Pity Vampire. No one likes me. wah. My coworkers hate me. Wah. My daughter is in remedial school, psychotherapy, and whore jr training. Wah. Guys always leave me. Wah, wah, wah. He ate it up with a spoon. Being helpful, listening, researching Boot Camps. I kid you not. Too bad he didn’t give her the advice she needed. Quit being a whore. Quit being a bitch. Be a decent role model for your child. Dont date married men. That sort of thing.

          • Is Pity Vampire another term for the Waif variant of the BPD?

            OW is definitely disordered. Her life is filled with drama. She tells STBX that she sees visions–oh, and this is the year she dies (hand to forehead, swoon!). She needs to be protected. Oh that mean bank won’t give her a car loan! Oh woe!

            I cannot even begin to fathom why he would give her the slightest amount of credence.

            But in a few weeks, I won’t have to worry, since that won’t be my job. 🙂

    • It sounds like you’re already halfway there. The beauty about blocking her on FB is that you do not inadvertently run across their annoying interactions. You’re not stalking, but they keep throwing themselves in your path. (Lookee meeee!) The block allows you to go about your business on Facebook without being accosted by their drama.

      Can you tell that I love the block? I love it.

    • Keep going Struggling Chump! This stuff is very, very challenging. But you really are stronger than you know. I’ve been there. We’ve been there.

      Sometimes there is so much messiness and uncharted territory. I gave the OW about 2 hours of time so I could get the information I needed. Trust me, she wanted to keep contacting me but I shut her down.

      Block her on FB and block her calls. Keep focusing on you.


    • You could change your name on your page after you defriend her or make a new FB page so that your true friends and family can still connect. Come up with one that they won’t recognize and let the other people know it’s you.

      • That’s what I did. New FB page/name, and the only people on there are my family and very close friends. It is such an incredible relief to be able to express myself freely and not have to wonder what the hell is gonna show up in my newsfeed. As a side benefit, it was also a great way for me to trim the social media fat out of my life. Who needs 400+ FB friends anyway?

    • “I love you so much!” “I made a huge mistake!” “I’m going to counseling. I will do ANYTHING to make this work!”

      I waited so long to hear those words. He never said them. The silence was very lonely and cruel.

      I thank GOD that he never said those words. I’d have made very, very poor choices based on those words. I’m sorry you had to endure it. Cheaters are shit.

  • You just got rid of one shark. Why would you think another one is ok? I get it. Sometimes our exes are so unbelievable it’s nice to know someone else has witnessed it.

    Hey shark. Can you BELIEVE other shark had the audicity to bite me three times? !? HE said he thought my surfboard was a seal. And then he got a hold of my leg and I had to PUNCH HIM in the nose. But of course then there was blood in the water and I never felt safe until I was out of THAT ocean. But what a beady eyed maw of need right?

    And Facebook is the devil. I’m six weeks free and the peace of mind totally outweighs any benefits it had.

  • Forget about unfriending her and your husband. Block them! This is a wonderful FB feature that should be used way more often than it is. If you block them; it’s kind of like they’re dead.

    If they are friends with people you are friends with, than you won’t see any of their comments. If you try to search for them, they don’t exist.

    Block, block, block!!!

  • Leaving denial and accepting reality is immensely painful. We all get that. There is no way to avoid it.

    CL responded with a very nice “clunk on the head” to set you straight. Stay on that path.

  • I’d like to echo what 4evertrue says and congratulate you on being brain tumour free. That is wonderful.

    Bearing in mind, your x chose to have an affair when you were fighting that battle – and bearing in mind this OW chose to have an affair with your husband while you were so terribly ill – and bearing in mind she must know you were battling a brain tumour when that POS bumped pelvis’s with her – what does it say about her that she actually wants to be FB friends with him??

    A while back we had a great post here with regards to ‘who keeps the friends’ – the one’s who want to ‘sit on the fence and not take sides’. For myself – well, I don’t want to be friends with anyone who wants to be friends with ‘The Great I Am’. whenever I think about it, the song by Manic Street Preachers ‘If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next’ plays in my head (not a song about cheating, as such, but you can see where I’m going with it). I prefer a better class of friend, and Struggling Chump – so do you.

    Another thing that strikes me here is that this woman has got you and your X playing the ‘pick me dance’. Why bother? What do you want to pick such an ethically-challenged person for? I can understand why you are holding onto some sympathy for her – one assumes she was in a vulnerable place when your x decided to turn on the charm – but then she went on to further prove she sucks by lying to you and then thinking she could get cake and kibbles from both him and you! Whatsmore, she’s also the type of ‘friend’ who’ll slate you behind your back (as demonstrated by her two-facedness with x). Absolutely block her! I’d be tempted to tell her that I’d had a serious think about the situation and have come to the realisation that she is just as Cluster B fucked up (if not worse) as the X and want nothing more to do with her – but that’s just me – I’m sure the advice to just go NC without any explanation is probably the best way to go.

    Get rid – you’re worth so much more 😀

    • I loved this response. Is it crazy that I never considered that she had an affair with him while I was sick? I was more wrapped up in thinking that was such a shitty thing for her to do to her dead fiancé. Absolutely disrespectful to him and to my family both. My tumor Ended up being benign, so shortly after having it removed we never really thought about it again.

      • You sound like a very compassionate person SC, and the OW sounds very manipulative and good at appealing to you with pity. She was in a bad place. Well, hell, YOU were in a bad place — you had a brain tumor, and you didn’t cheat on anyone.

        In a weird way, I can understand wanting to speak to someone who has suffered the same mindfuck as you from your ex. It’s like some perverse sisterhood or something. (I got a lot of comfort speaking to my cheater’s second wife, who filled me in.) But it’s not friendship. You’re sort of using this person as a touchstone, that YES, this really happened. WOW, he really lied like this, etc.

        EXCEPT she’s not an innocent chump like you — she was a co-conspirator. And she hasn’t seen the error of her ways, she’s still volunteering to stay tangled up with him. Don’t you volunteer too.

        • I can see that what I’m going to say could be really controversial but ….

          In the midst of grief-madness I can sort of see how someone might fall for the seduction of a charmer. I can also see why she would welcome that attention as a comforting distraction from the terrible pain.

          I’m not saying it’s right – but I could find some compassion /understanding for someone distraught with grief and desperate for the pain to stop – even only momentarily.

          I know that sounds like a cheater apology, but all I’m saying is I think grief is hard to bear and in any other circumstance I suppose I would have to acknowledge that the ‘widow’ was not in her right mind.

          Where, of course, any understanding / compassion goes out the window, is that it wasn’t a ‘one off’ ‘regrettable incident’. That, even if XH hadn’t divulged the details of SC’s health crisis, this OW pursued the relationship, beyond the immediate insanity. Sanity did not return and save her, compassion for someone other herself did not bring her back to her senses. I feel revulsion for this woman that she appears to have absolutely no self-awareness. Somehow in her brain there is nothing ‘odd’ about this set up she has got going on with SC and ‘ex-boyfriend’. Any compassion I could find for her grief-stricken madness has to be negated by how she continued to behave.

          Now …. waiting for the brick bats to start falling!

          • No brick bats coming from me! I agree with your point that she was emotionally frail. I relate to her because that is how my relationship with my ExH started. I had just ended a 5 year abusive marriage when he came along and swept me off my feet with all his sparkle. I thought he hung the moon!! It was clearly part of his mindfuckery.
            She did know about my medical condition. When u mentioned it was the reason I didn’t attend her fiancé’s funeral, she was very apologetic about what I had gone through. She clearly knew details my ex had given her. She has no culpability whatever in her role. Thanks for pointing that out to me!! I missed that too. It struck me that every time she calls she bends my eat over her problems. She never asks how I am doing. My feelings aren’t even on her radar. She’s absorbed in her life and only wants to talk to me when her relationship is on the fritz. She’s very unstable to say the least (3 kids, 3 different dads, none of the kids were her deceased fiancé’s). It makes me wonder if she was sexually abused as a child. Her promiscuity stands out. I have a soft spot for victims of abuse. That being said, her issues are not mine to sort out. I’m doing good to take care of myself and my three kids. I did buy chumpladys book and I am going to make it required reading for any chump who walks in my office for counseling 🙂

            • The poor woman before me was just getting over an abusive marriage / divorce (cheating exH). I was still grieving for the demise of my first emotionally abusive 12 year marriage, the OW in my nightmare had just ended her abusive marriage because of a whole shitload of serious wrongness from her exH, and I accept, must have been going through a great deal of PTSD from that.

              It would be interesting to know just how many of us Chumps were caught while we were vulnerable, recovering from some awful trauma / terrible relationship. Even though my first marriage was FU (first husband was a major ‘Mr Nice Guy /Passive Aggression expert’) I’d never been cheated on before until I met ‘Jake The Snake’. They really are like sharks circling in on the smell of blood / emotional anguish.

              • ‘The poor woman before me was just getting over an abusive marriage / divorce (cheating exH).’

                ….. when she met ‘The Great I Am’. She was with him for 17 years and I met him on a blind date (set up by his brother-in-law, whom I worked with) 6 months after they’d split up. (Or so I was told by both him and BIL – ex-shithead was living with his sister and BIL at the time. Now I know him better, I’m horrified to think he might have not been so clear with his ex that it was all over, and I hate the thought that I might have been the exit OW in their relationship – I’ve never been the OW, ever. I have met his ex and she wanted to know all the details of how we met, so did tell her – she didn’t give me any indication that they were still together at the time – but still, it would be a diversion from his normal MO, now I know him better, so it still leaves me worried).

            • SC, she sounds like a Borderline Personality.


              I agree that the untimely death of a loved one can make you frail with grief. Yes. Most people. Normal people. Borderlines? How’s that political saying go…”never let a good crisis go to waste”?

              It’s sick, and I’m sure that she didn’t wish for this crisis to happen–but they use every iota of drama in their lives to stir up more. Get more attention. Centrality, as CL said.

              She sounds pathetic and mentally ill, and she wants the drama to continue because it makes her feel special and unique.

              My question to you is the same that was asked of me, and after it sinks in…it hits you like a tidal wave—“what makes you think that anything, and I mean ANYTHING, that this person ever said to you is the truth?” She may have salted her tales with some truth, but ANYTHING could be a lie. That’s one skein that no amount of money could make me try to untangle. That’s not the definition of a friend.

              It does bother me a little, too—you toss that word “friend” around quite a bit. My FRIENDS do not act like that. They don’t lie to me or cheat on me or steal from me. This woman did all of the above and is still doing it (the lying part, anyway). Is this your definition of “friend”?

              The best advice I ever got was DISENGAGE. It makes these people absolutely crazy insane. It really does. Watch what happens when you enforce it. The reaction is fairly swift and it goes through the cycle…the rage, the pity, the charm. Then sit back and watch the fireworks, if you want to be entertained. Just do it from a safe distance.

          • Not a brickbat, but a question — how long do you give grief madness? I ask because my wife started her affair with her married boss a few months after her mother died. She was in a fragile state — I did my best to get her through it, but the fact is she preferred distraction to any sort of dealing with the situation — which was complex because, frankly, she had not treated her mother well. I’ve come to believe that the affair was a way of getting back the two-source kibble supply that existed while her mother (who was devoted to her) was still alive, which diminishes my sympathy quite a bit. Do I have compassion for her grief? Of course I do. Do I think her response to it is “understandable”? Yes again. But things can be both understandable AND contemptible.

            • ANR
              I was mad with grief when my first child died of cancer 25 years ago. Not even in the depths of my insanity did it ever cross my mind to have an affair.
              It’s not about madness, it’s about character.

            • Hi ANR,

              It’s tomorrow (if you see what I mean) so, sorry I missed your question at the time you wrote it. We tend to move on to the next day’s post pretty quickly so it could be you’ll miss my tuppenneth.

              I absolutely, totally agree that both can be understandable AND contemptible. I wasn’t trying to give a justification for what the OW did (or, by extension, your XW) – rather, I had to acknowledge ‘mitigating circumstances’ caused by grief-madness, and then only for a momentary insanity (as in the ‘one-off regrettable incident’). I accept grief lasts longer than one moment / hour / day etc, but I think there is a distinction between giving into temptation when one is ‘insane with grief’ and momentarily mentally unhinged, and choosing to actually conduct an affair – which obviously takes a lot of pre-meditation / planning / deceit / subterfuge. If the ‘widow’ had turned up at the funeral with a machine gun and strafed the entire congregation, it would be no less reprehensible, horrific, devastating, immoral. However, I would expect her defence team to plead ‘temporary insanity caused by grief’, and I would expect the Judge to take that into account when passing sentence. However, were the prosecution be able to prove that the ‘widow’ had conducted an ongoing campaign of persecution of the surviving family members, say, or plans were found that detailed an intention to murder at the funeral, then of course, ‘temporary insanity’ could not be accepted and I would not expect the Judge to make any allowances for her defence based on ‘grief-madness’.

              Ultimately though, I am not advocating that an understanding and empathy for the temporarily insane grief-stricken ‘widow’ (or bereaved daughter) makes the transgression any less dreadful, of course it is, just as murdering the whole funeral party would not become any less reprehensible or traumatic.

              In this particular case a case could be made that both OW and SC’s XH were affected by grief-madness. She by the loss of someone she loved and the future she thought she was going to have (this is, of course, viewing her as a normal person who had just momentarily lost her mind, and without knowing any more details of her personality disorder) and him by the loss of his best friend and possibly facing the loss of his own wife due to the brain tumour (and again, this would assume up to this point he’d been a normal person, who was acting out of character due to momentary insanity brought on by grief, which we see clearly he is not, because he carried on with the affair). Of course, if they’d have succumbed to the temptation to ‘fuck themselves out of misery’ then come to their senses immediately, it would still be a dreadful thing they’d done, disrespectful of the memory of their beloved deceased, abusive of SC and her family but a momentary insanity, for which you would hope they’d both be shamed, contrite and determined never to allow themselves to do again. Where, obviously, neither of them can be allowed compassion or understanding is their willingness to continue behaving as they did and pursue an affair together. As far as I’m concerned, this isn’t temporary insanity. This is everything we know about cheaters – entitlement, narcissism. abuse, cruelty, selfishness – not insanity.

              I don’t believe either SC’s XH or this mad OW were temporarily insane due to grief. I believe both behaved despicably, but I could understand why SC initially had empathy for the OW, given the circumstances. In my case, OW was emotionally vulnerable, due to the dramatic demise of her marriage and ‘The Great I Am’ would tell you he was grieving the failure of his latest nose job. I have some sympathy for the OW in my nightmare (although she did know he was married – she came to the wedding) simply because I KNOW just how charming and persistent ‘The Great I Am’ can be. Sympathy/understanding for him? – er hell no. Where SC’s compassion let her down, was by not taking OW’s subsequent actions into account, trading off her own needs (i.e. safety in her marriage, compassion from her husband, particularly when she was facing a life-threatening health issue) and therefore giving the OW a ‘grief-madness’ pass to come back in her life and abuse her some more. While the OW in my nightmare gets some understanding and empathy from me, she certainly won’t be getting any character references or invites to christmas dinner from me.

              I apply the same thinking to your XW too ANR. Had she succumbed to a moment of insanity brought on by grief for her mother, and had had sex one time with some man then, of course it’s reprehensible, it’s no less abusive of you and no less morally wrong. I think you would still find it traumatic and very hurtful that she had not sought the comfort from you in her distress, it doesn’t make it right, or less hurtful, but more understandable if she’d been mortified by her behaviour, remorseful and resolved to never allow herself to behave that way ever again. Where your wife loses any compassion or understanding, is that in continuing the affair, she demonstrated clearly that it WASN’T temporary insanity brought on by grief – that she was everything we know about cheaters, that she was more than happy to abuse you and all that was good about your relationship together.

              I am so sorry that you had your kind and loving consideration for her so horribly and disdainfully abused. It speaks volumes of your good character that you were so supportive, gentle and understanding. It speaks volumes of her bad character that she did not honour your kindness in the way she should have done.

              FWIW, on those times I’ve been bereaved, sex has been the very last thing on my mind and not something I wanted to take refuge / comfort in, but not everyone is me.

              Very Best Wishes ANR, I always enjoy your posts 🙂

              Jayne x

              • My ExH’s OW comforted herself with a new set of knockers she purchased with her fiancé’s life insurance. This forum helped me see through her BS. I have blocked her. I am no longer a hypotenuse. Here’s to looking forward 🙂

            • “Do I have compassion for her grief? Of course I do. Do I think her response to it is ‘understandable’? Yes again. But things can be both understandable AND contemptible.”

              Thanks, ANR. This really spoke to me. It describes my situation over the last few years so perfectly. “Understandable yet contemptible.”

        • Thanks for your response. I was humbled that you posted my letter. I really wasn’t expecting that 🙂 I did block her. Just this morning. Some days I feel like jello. Today is NOT one of those days. I don’t know how people navigate this crap without a support system like CN. Your book arrived in the mail yesterday and I can’t wait to read it! Thank you so much for the work you do. And HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

          • YAY – well done SC 🙂

            You are obviously are really lovely person and it is a testament to you that you managed to find some (misplaced, as it was) compassion for the fruit-loop OW. I am really glad to hear you have blocked her and wish you all the very best for your future, abuser-less new life.

            wishing you all the happiness you can hold, and more

            Jayne x

            • Thanks so much Jayne! You are so kind. Like you, I am curious how many cheaters look for emotionally vulnerable chumps to take advantage of when we are reeling from some sort of emotional trauma. I know my ExH has a nose for vulnerabilities and he turns on the charm (goes for the kill) when women are at their weakest. He learned this technique from watching his father. They are the same animal. I’m 2 years out from the last D-day. I’m trying to be pickier about who I date when I’m finally ready to put myself out there. Clearly I can’t spot a snake. 🙂

  • Chump Lady and her Chumps are correct.
    You have been through enough. If you want to stay in touch with your actual friends and family on FB that is one thing.
    I truly loved my X wasband too and it is very difficult wrapping your head around the what has happened.
    I do not consider myself mighty, but my bottom line is nothing to do with X end of story. I am not friends or friends of friends with anyone remotely associated with wasband. Plain and simple, those people hurt me more than I ever thought possible. I have no use for them anymore they ALL betrayed me on some level and this is where I have learned that I am no longer going to forgive and forget, because all of that chumpy nice girl shit did nothing but come back and bite me in the ass and drag me to my knees.
    I have some wonderful friends and they are in no way related to wasband his new foreign import or the wonderful new stranger friends he now keeps.
    My Buddist friend just keeps telling me “It does not matter” and to just focus on me and what is now important in my new life.
    I am sad and lonely because of all the loss I have had over the past year or so… I have plans to attend activities and meet more better quality friends.

    Honestly I do not know HOW I am staying away from x wasband and the old circle of friends, but there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that contact with or knowledge of any of those people could benefit me. Each one of them played their part in blowing up my life and bringing me to my knees and then leaving me for dead (literally). So, I am proud to say, THEY ARE DEAD TO ME!
    Go NC except for the kids and keep that to a minimum. Ditch all of the losers that assisted X in blowing up your life. You will have room for better quality friends and experiences if you just make the space.
    Peace and Love!

  • Read with horror you talked much less became fb “friends” with ow. Sure a hooting laugh is had over you. Instead of blocking etc on fb how about delete it and don’t go back.

  • Counselor, heal thyself. Drop them asap and find a group that deals with co-dependency to help you keep them dropped.

  • Struggling Chump,

    I’m no Oracle and neither am I a therapist, but I think you might want to evaluate and perhaps reconsider your definition of “friendship.” In the words of Malcolm X, “everyone who is friendly is not your friend.” CL is, as usual, brilliant in what she has told you.

    “Is the woman who fucked your husband your friend? NO. Not unless you have really, really low standards for friends.” THIS. Anyone who fucked your HUSBAND can NEVER be your friend. They should not even be an acquaintance or even in your conversation circle.

    The OW in my case, over 20 years ago, came into my home, pretended to befriend me, all the while attempting to have a relationship with my husand – even after she married and was pregnant by her second husband. I got a bad vibe from her and never fully embraced her “friendship.” Fast forward to today. If I saw her on the street and she was on fire, I would not spit on her to try to put it out. I have definitely not engaged her in any way. She is nothing to me. She is his accomplice and co-conspirator – that is her role in my life. She is not different than a mugger or someone who was driving the get away car for someone who harmed me. Her very behavior toward me from the moment I met her has been deceptive, dishonest and underhanded. These are not qualities that I value in a friend and, consequently, I do not seek out people who exhibit these qualities for friendship. The OW in my case (and apparently in your case as well) is an attention whore. She and my STBX would like nothing more than for me to continue to triangulate myself into their drama. Not. Going. To. Do. It. She is not my friend and neither is he. My friends don’t lie to me, betray me, stab me in the back, deliberately hurt me and attempt to humiliate me. With friends like those, who would need enemies?

    “Curious about their relationship? They are fuckbuddies who fucked you over. They enjoy centrality and drama at your expense. And “inappropriate jokes on public forums.” You don’t need to be anywhere near these people.” Struggling Chump, listen to CL and step way away from this vomit carnival disguised as a neighborhood fair.

  • I have had personal experience with this issue — back in the dark ages when I first found out about the affair(s). I was contacted by the OW, and she wanted to know why I would not give my (then) husband a divorce. I was shocked because I did not have any idea she existed, and because even though we were having marital differences, he had never asked for a divorce. So I talked to the OW, trying to untangle the skein of FUness. When confronted, my husband told me she was delusional, and they had dated while we had been separated, and it was a big mistake on his part and blah, blah, blah, lie, lie, lie. So I did talk to OW and relayed this information to her, which was a big surprise to her. Then I suppose we both did the pick me dance for a while. I learned #1 You can never trust the OW because she is messed up herself. She found out he was married after they started dating, and had been waiting for our divorce — which he assured her was “in process” — and she just knew they were “soulmates”.

    It is a time of great stupidity for all when any of us tries to justify and redeem and “heal” the wounds of infidelity. It is the central fallacy the reconciliation market counts on — “Who does he REALLY LOVE?”
    We do stupid things and say stupid things because we want to believe our fantasy instead of reality, and we have our pride, and we pretend we are doing it for the children — but the truth is we don’t really know what to do at the time and we have to figure it out. I can only say the OW taught me through painful lessons how to live with the truth. I told myself I was helping her and helping myself by learning the truth. The truth is hard to swallow, and once you learn it your life will never be the same. I am glad I know the truth, but it was like having surgery — the “problem” may be removed, but the scar will last forever.
    Eventually, all the dancing stopped for our little triangle, and my dear ex-Schmoopie is out dancing with another unknowing and trusting partner. She too will find the awful truth, eventually, because Schmoopie will never change (for long — he just pretends to change). The nature of the disordered is not to learn from mistakes, but to eternally do the same crap over and over and over. He only REALLY LOVES whatever it is he wants at the moment.
    It is a sad state of affairs for women that we treat each other so poorly. There are good and bad women and men every where — and I suppose that sharing a gender does not require we respect each other or trust each other. But when someone lacks character, there is nothing you can do about it. No matter how sympathetic or empathetic we may be, we have to take care of ourselves and our business, and leave the OW of the world to take care of their own business. As long as they live in fantasy land they will continue to hurt themselves. They may blame the Schmoopies of the world, but in reality they allow the Schmoopies to dance all over them. Until they learn to stand by their own actions and choices they will never be better.

    Staying in contact just prolongs the bad memories, and I have other things to do that are much more important. I cannot tell someone else whether or not to cut contact with OW — but if you ask yourself what you are gaining from the contact, you will probably figure out the answer yourself. You cannot change the past, or know what will happen in the future. You live in the now and do the best you can to live up to your own opinion of how you should live your life. That’s the best anyone can do. Good Luck!

  • Ugh, FB. My test for anything with the STBXH is to ask what I am getting out of any potential interaction, and if the answer is either neutral or something negative, I don’t do it. In this circumstance, I can’t imagine what you could possibly be getting out of keeping any sort of minimal link with the OW.

    It seems like a classic case of weak boundaries and co-dependence (not judging you, we’ve all been there). You seem to be asking what you owe this woman; courtesy, politeness, friendship, or even just contact. Answer: Nothing!

  • Just a general comment. I hate it when the co cheater claims they “didn’t KNOW they were married” or thought “they were separated” or similar horseshit. Sure you did. It’s normal for someone to only be available 2 to 4 pm daily, and never answer your phone, or be totally absent from social media. Or whatever line of crap you choose to believe. It might be believable 20 years ago, but now, not so much.

    • I remember a (now ex) friend suggested that about the mistress that my fist husband had. When I mentioned that they are co-workers who were part of some (corporate “team” as he told me, she became agitated and refused to contemplate the possibility that someone that integrated in your husband’s life would have easy access to that kind of information.

      And that is one of several reasons why we’re not friends today.

  • Dear Struggling,
    Just heard a local news story on my lunch. It kind of ties in here. A woman was left by her husband of 7 years for her best friend.
    Then he shot and killed her in her driveway because she didn’t want him back according to the woman’s daughter.
    I believe she had a PO. The police knew of “incidents”.
    Sadly no chump has a unique story. Sadly we were chumped by dangerous disordered asses. Get and stay safe.

  • Struggling,
    The way I see it, you are not struggling. You are enjoying the drama. The only possible reason to stay civil with this OW is if she becomes a part time surrogate mother to your children.

    The only consideration for this is — how old are your children, and do they know the truth. If they do, then they can make their own decisions if, as and when, they find themselves having visitations with the happy couple.

    I cannot believe anyone would want to gang up with the OW just to spite the Ex. Sounds like a bad movie plot. You appear to be torturing yourself. My take on her willingness to be in contact is that she is pumping you for dirt on him…which she will no doubt quote when to her advantage. Why give the enemy ammunition?

    Are you finished with the guy? You have a restraining order!

    While there is no need to diss her to her face, a slow fade from the acquaintance, and a NC on phone calls or messages is necessary for you to heal. Who friggin cares what dirty jokes they trade on FB. Get fascinated with something else, anything but them, and live well. That’s the best revenge.

  • My guess is the only reason the OW wanted to “friend” you on FB is to get goods on you that she delivers to your ex as a form of pick-me dance. I would almost be willing to bet that everything you tell her, she tells him. The fact that they are still friends and still posting inappropriate stuff tells me that they are still an item, no matter what bullshit she tells you about being over him.

    She is using you. She most certainly is not your friend. Please block this woman immediately and do not ever take a call from her again.

    • ” I would almost be willing to bet that everything you tell her, she tells him.”

      Agreed. and to take it one step further, I bet every friend “in common” is probably playing messenger as well.

      I instinctively shut out every person who let me know that they were still in contact with my exH. Now, I don’t have to worry about information run between us. Who’s having a party that I’m not invited to and so on……

      Sometimes, you have to cut people off to keep your world drama free.

  • Is this a joke? You say you are a therapist or a counselor. Surely you had to go through some training to learn how to deal with disordered people.
    Why would you want a friend who had an affair at her husband’s funeral? Why do you still have any reason to know one thing about that sorry excuse for a husband. These two found each other, yay for them! Leave them alone and let them wallow in their pig shit.
    You have children together and that is the only reason you need to keep some sort of eye on things. But you surely should do it at a distance. TimeHeals was right on the money. You need to go find some boundaries. Big bad ass boundaries. Facebook is a wonderful tool for healthy people. It is a public menace in the hands of people like your ex and his whatever.

  • Struggling Chump–You have the same chumpiness that we all have; it’s called compassion. You’re a counselor, so compassion comes in spades.

    The problem is that compassion needs boundaries or you will be miserable.

    Here is what you know:
    1) This woman fucked your husband when you were ill with a brain tumor.
    2) She knew he was married and fucked him anyway.
    3) She knew you were ill and fucked him anyway.
    4) She dumped him only after he refused to leave you.
    5) She apologized and friended you on fb.
    6) She friended your XH on fb.
    7) She shows lack of boundaries in her fb jokes with XH.
    8) She uses you for free counseling.

    From where I sit, I say kudos to you for dumping your creep of an XH. I also say that if you aren’t in therapy, you probably would benefit because of the boundaries issue.

    Counselors stay out of counseling on the side, as do any health care professionals avoid practicing their field informally. There are huge boundary issues involved, and potential legal ones. It’s also rude to put people on the spot.

    Based on all the above, I’d say she’s not your friend at all. Block her from Facebook. While you’re at it, block the XH. That way you’ll be as NC as you can get while dealing with custody.

    CL is right; this sounds as if they enjoy pulling you into the centrality of their drama. In fact, I’ll go farther to say that without you, they don’t have drama, sparklies, etc. They need that triangle to work for the kibble-fest.

    Blocking stops this and will help you feel as if you’re winning the struggle. 🙂

    • I have compassion, but… I’m still not going to let somebody camp on my lawn or join them for songs around the campfire they built in my front yard 😉

      For one thing, aside from their obvious transgression, my homeowner’s association would probably sue me if I didn’t put a stop to that immediately. The homeowner’s association has a book of restrictive covenants (boundaries) even if mine suddenly go missing 🙂

    • As recent as only a few days ago, my exH’s slut of an OW (who he has been having an affair with since 2007) tried to speak to me at a public event. I did not reply or acknowledge her. I’m sure that solidified her beliefs that I am a bitch. I have NC with exH and I certainly do not want to be friends with OW! EVER! He absolutely lied to her during the affair and I have no sympathy! ALL CHEATERS LIE! Even the OW!!!

      #1 – SHE fucked my husband
      #2 – SHE fucked my husband knowing he was married and had children

      PERIOD!!!! That is all you need to decide you do not want to be friends or even acquaintances with people like this!

      KB – right on!!!!!!!

  • My best friend was a month out from her wedding when her fiance left her for a friend of hers. (I never liked that friend. Or fiance if we’re being real truth honest.) Years go by, she marries someone else. Facebook starts becoming super popular, she starts friending/getting requests from people we went to school with. She calls me up one day and says, “Guess who sent me a friend request? My ex’s OW.” I said, “That c#$t has a lot of nerve.” She agreed, couldn’t believe it, etc. I get on Facebook one day, and under people you may know, who should pop up but BFF’s ex’s OW with BFF as a mutual friend! I immediately called her and said, “Why the fuck is OW your Facebook friend?!” She admitted she got curious, wanted to see what her life was like now – NOT with BFF’s ex anymore, multiple dead-end relationships since, etc. She eventually deleted her.

    You were probably curious too, but your curiousity’s been settled. Delete or block her.

  • Dear Struggling Chump,

    I was so lucky to have such supportive grown kids when all this went down with their dad. My oldest son told me immediately to block him and OW. He said “If you do decide to look, I don’t want to hear anything about it.” Looking at them and thinking about them is a powerful addiction you have to break. Just think of what would happen if you used the energy you currently spend thinking about OW and their relationship and put that into your own life. Wouldn’t that get you a lot farther than thinking about or communicating with either of them? I know how hard it is to break the habit because I struggle with it myself. However, I’m almost 3 years out from D-day and I feel stronger and happier. All the energy I used to spend on The Drama is now freed for creating something better for myself.

  • I’m friends with one of the OW. Here’s the difference between my story and this one:

    My (now) friend didn’t know she was an OW. She didn’t know she was one of many. She was under the impression he lived with a room mate, not with his girlfriend’s parents. For all she knew, she WAS his girlfriend. Note, “girlfriend” singular, as in, she thought she was the only one.

    When we both realized that we’d been played by him, we found ourselves joking and complaining about stuff that he did. We could do that because we essentially were coming from the same place.

    Now here’s the difference, are you ready?

    This woman DOES know that she was the OW, and she has the audacity to actually not only approach you to be friends, but to ask you for parenting advice. And then has the nerve to complain about your ex-husband’s “issues.” REALLY? AND HOW WOULD SHE KNOW ABOUT THEM?

    She might have some room to complain about his relationship issues on a common ground with you IF she hadn’t WILLINGLY fucked him behind your back. But she DID do that. Therefore she has no real room to whine because she does not, in fact, hold a common ground with you. She wasn’t equally chumped. She KNEW what was going on. She IS one of his relationship issues and she willingly and knowingly MADE herself one of his issues. If she’s going to talk about his inability to commit, or care about people other than himself, she’s tarring herself with the same brush, but acting like she’s pristine. She does not have the right to knowingly fuck your husband and then come to you and say “Damn, isn’t he a narcissist?”

    No, she is not your friend. What she is, is also a narcissist. She’s so freaking full of herself that not only does she think she can fuck your husband, but feel entitled to be friends with you after he (predictably) doesn’t turn out to be prince charming. AND the reason she ditched him was because he wouldn’t divorce you for her! IS SHE KIDDING? She’s complaining about how he can’t handle relationships, because he wouldn’t commit to HER, to the woman he wouldn’t leave.

    Yeah, that’s 31 flavors of “what the absolute fuck?”

    • I loved your response 🙂 I had never thought of it that way. Thanks for not throwing darts like “you enjoy drama.” Seriously?? Yeah I always dreamed of the man I married cheating on me so I could get attention.

  • I can’t help but wonder: how much of this is coming from a place where you want to change things?

    Your ex and the OW are lacking empathy and compassion. It’s not like they can just borrow some of yours. Having a degree in a field designed to help people isn’t a loophole. It’s not like sharing those feelings is a magic balm that will enable the cheaters to suddenly install a conscience. As CL likes to say, it’s not like they can get a character transplant. That’s something they have to develop inside themselves. The thing is, her actions are clearly saying that she gives exactly zero shits about developing character and acting with integrity. Why else would she be laughing and joking with fucktard on fb? She likes kibbles! Kibbles are easy! Centrality! Drama! Here’s what her subconscious is giddly singing out
    loud on fb, for all the world to see: “Look, I got the chump to sympathize with me and be my friend AND I get to play footsie with her ex! Wheeeeee!!!!!”

    I don’t care how bereaved she was when she lost her fiance, her actions say that she’s a nasty piece of work.

    It’s not possible to manipulate a character-deprived person into acting like a person with character. It’s not possible to manipulate the OW with niceness into being a good person, even if she’s around your kids. It can’t happen because she sucks. She lacks the basic machinery necessary to *not* be sucky and you can’t install it for her.

    Oh, how I used to wish this wasn’t the case. Chumpy, chumpy, chumpy. Super codependent, that was me. Dr. Simon is right: It’s not like they don’t see, it’s that they don’t agree.

    It might not be a bad idea to think about installing a force field so that in the future, (when these loonies come sniffing around for kibbles), you can keep them out of your life while letting good people in. The force field is my silly little way of setting boundaries. I like to think of it as a combination of studying and identifying the behavior patterns of character-deprived people and establishing my values and boundaries so that I know what to do if I come across troublesome folk again.

  • This is a No Brainer. NO CONTACT WITH EITHER ONE! She is trying to control you too by making you think she’s a friend. I can’t say it strong enough. NO CONTACT

  • I cannot imagine losing someone I loved so dearly and being willing to become involved with another man so soon, married or not. I’d be busy grieving. The thought of another man touching me would be ewwww!!

  • Struggling Chump, it sounds like a big part of your “struggling” is maintaining some form of contact with your ex, not directly but indirectly. I have found that having contact with anyone associated with my ex (except our son) did not help with my healing. His family members are regularly reaching out to me and I am gracious but still set boundaries. They know they cannot mention his name in my presence, and I limit contact with them. I’ve been very honest why I prefer to not interact with them often. And these are people who love me and are very upset with the divorce so I know their intentions are good. Now, your ex’s OW? What are your intentions for even considering friendship with her? I guess it’s time to be honest with yourself. Forget the OW’s intentions – that’s too messed up to even attempt to second guess what motivates her. I can see on your replies to posts that you are getting insight from the replies here and that’s a great start. I found that when I told everyone that I don’t want to hear anything about him, my healing came sooner. I have to admit it was hard to tell people NOT to tell me news about him. Looking back, I wish I did it a lot sooner.

    Get rid of your ex completely. When we get rid of anything that causes us harm, we get rid of it 100%. When there’s a nail sticking out of the floor, we don’t shave half of it now and save the rest for later. Rather, we yank it all out. Otherwise, we are simply making ourselves available for more harm.

  • Up here in the legal world of Toronto Canada, that Facecrack friendship you have with your ex would be considered a violation of the (no-contact) protective order, regardless of whether it was in existence prior to obtaining the order. Regardless of who “friended” who. Ir

    Block these two asshats, pronto.

    Best of luck. And yes, listen to the Chump Lady. She is very wise. :))

  • Here is a simple solution to going NC without pointing it out to both of those dickheads. When they look for you, you will look to them like you are still friends on fb. Put them on restricted on fb and only post things that are seeable by friends. The restricted won’t be able to see them. Then go to their fb page and click the unfollow. Then you won’t get anything they post or vary rarely get anything they post. They will not be any wiser other than thinking that you are very quiet on fb these days. But you have to not give in to the temptation to stalk them on fb. You can go to their fb walls and see all of their stuff. So don’t do it… Think of them as utterly toxic… you wouldn’t touch a dog turd, so don’t go near them… After a few weeks you won’t even remember they are there. Now as for free counseling, don’t take her call. Also follow the gray rock thing. She will go away soon enough if you don’t feed her drama… she needs drama.

  • Hi Struggling,

    The thought occurs to me, that those of us who gravitate to the helping professions sometimes have this little twist in our thinking. As a nurse for the last 30 years I know the feeling of putting on my invisible nurses hat to try to help where help is needed. The selfless attitude is very much built in and damn near unconscious. It gets reinforced on the job daily. It can lead us to do things that don’t make much sense to others who aren’t operating from a similar mind set and can feel as natural to us as breathing if we don’t take the time to think things through.

    This seems to be my year for working on my FOO issues and let me tell you, it has been an eye opener. I am an only child raised by a covert narcissist and an alcoholic, malignant narcissist. One of the hallmarks of having even one narcissist for a parent is that we quickly learn we are not allowed to have any needs. It becomes ingrained and again, almost unconscious. This fits in nicely with helping professions. We turn off our needs.

    I have been working on separating me….who I am ….from the nurse…..what I do. Me, the person, is allowed to have needs, to say no, to not help when it would hurt me, to get angry at another’s unreasonable entitlement and say NO. (I’ve got it in my head, now I’m working at getting it seated in my gut.) That does not make me a bad person, or a bad nurse. It makes me a real human being who gets to embrace the rights that every healthy human is entitled to. I do not have to be all loving, all forgiving, or all giving. Yes we all matter…..but I matter too. Sometimes we can forget that in our quest to “make a difference.”

    That is a tough boundary to learn at any age, and comes with a tough bunch of crap to unlearn too.

    Honey, counselling is what you do, not all you are. You are entitled to say a big fat NO to this woman. You do Not have to help her. You are a good person even if you never interact with her ever again. Being a positive, contributing, caring person is not predicated on helping those who hurt us.

    The first step to change is awareness. You Go Girl!

    • WELL SAID, and thank you – parented by two narcs here too, and we have been trained.
      It has been shocking to find how many narcissists I have tolerated in my life – from my two ‘best friends’ (more grief) to my husband.
      It really does take changing your thinking.

      • The hugest help is the Al Anon 12 steps programme. They are constantly saying ‘put your own oxygen mask on first, before you help others’. They emphasise focus on self and self care first. Obsessing about others (the cheater etc) is in itself an ADDICTION. We have to learn to stop. I have found al anon and adult children of alcoholics and other dysfunction, the most enormous help. To learn an attitude of gratitude literally changes the way you see life. It is exactly the same life, but the focus is different. And this costs me a dollar a meeting.

    • My mother is briderline personality disorder. Like NPD, it’s in cluster B. Being raised by her is the reason I have a hard time with boundaries. I learned to equate abuse with love because my primary caregiver hated me then loved me then hated me and then loved me. See how that could confuse a child? Just because I’m a counselor doesn’t mean I’m not human. People (particularly people with problems of their own who can’t see past themselves) hold counselors and others in the helping professions to a higher standard than everyone else. I’m good at helping people. I’m not emotionally invested in their problems like I am my own. Emotionally intelligent people don’t hold anybody to a higher standard than they do everybody. I personally would never make fun of anyone who is struggling through an abusive situation. That’s probably why I gave the OW too much credit. Everyone has issues. No one is immune and no one is perfect. He problem with narcissist is that they fail to recognize they aren’t perfect.

  • Don’t forget you survived brain cancer, you do not need people like this in your life. Surround yourself with those who care about you. If your ex has a restraining order did it occur to you that the ow may be getting info for him. I would not be surprised, it was fun hurting you when you were very ill and why not continue. You don’t need this at all hurting you in your life. I hope you stay healthy and go be happy, think about you ok.

  • I apologize I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I’m working on it. Excellent advice from everybody.
    I, too, understand the need to hang on to just a stitch – whether its FB, sticky note, email or just a telegram – the ages have gone through it no matter the technology.
    It’s damn hard to let go until you realize you are really on the last thread of their ankle, hanging on.
    I did this.
    I followed him for a year on MY gps iPad – just to know where he was at all times. Nobody could get me to get off it, not even CN for awhile there.
    I was also tracking all his incoming/outgoing phone calls. Also, CN and everybody told me to quit. My reasoning was hey – I’m just protecting myself, or something – about where he was blah blah.

    Well, when I finally did pull the plug on all those devices – poof!
    It was magical. A tremendous amount of relief came over me. I would open my computer and, instead of doing all my tracking….ooooo, that was fun!….it was blank. He was FINALLY out of my life.
    It is freeing. I admit – it’s been hard to release him after 36 yrs, but the whole thing needed to end.
    And, now it has.

    Please remove any contact you have with this ass and this woman-ass. They are worthless because they are playing games.

    And, if you are divorced now – please, if I can do it – you can certainly do it too. It’s cathartic to cut them completely out of your lives. You need neither of them in any form.

    • “…the whole thing needed to end.
      And, now it has.”

      I like that Shechump-it’s compact enough to say as a Mantra “the whole thing needed to end/And, now it has….the whole thing needed to end/And, now it has…..etc.

      I think dealing with closure/grief is hard. As the OW in the post showed and comments elsewhere, it’s the people who don’t deal with their emotions who end up as the stuck chumps and of course, the cheaters.

      As I posted above, I got the Divorce yesterday. Mildly euphoric then, feeling reflective this morning. It’s an ebb and flow, like waves. The important thing is not to act on those feelings if the outcome is detrimental- to you or others. I’m AA, and I was told early on – feelings wont kill you, drinking on them just might.

      My mother died in July (Divorce and Death- how often they come together in our lives). It wasn’t an easy relationship- she was alcoholic and depressive ( yes, there’s the FOO issue) but I dealt with it by accepting the reality and not creating any (more) drama. And it’s OK. Like the Divorce, I will continue to grieve and let go, grieve and let go till I die too. That’s how it should be.

      • Mikky, I’m so sorry about the loss of your mother on top of the divorce. It’s really hard to face the ending of so many important relationships at the same time. I remember the day I learned my divorce was final. A good friend who worked in the courthouse called to let me know. I was glad she did because we’d just filed with the judge and it was over within 24 hours. It was so fast it would have made my head spin if I hadn’t had the warmth of a friend to break the news. I spent the rest of the day cleaning house and being quiet. It felt like a formality, the confirmation of a death that happened months ago. The resolution was good, though. It gave me permission to move forward with my own life. Anyway, hoping good things for you in the coming days…

        • Mikky,
          I’m sorry for the year you have had. Having my parents support this year has been a God send. They celebrated their 50th anniversary this year, and it broke my heart to let go of the dream that some day that would be me. But I’ve come to terms with the fact that wasn’t my path. It sounds like you too have come to terms with your path. I appreciate that characteristic in people! Big huge hugs to you!

  • I have never liked facebook because it is more like fakebook. It is amazing that in less than 10 years time so many people’s lives revolve around this. My life is un-dramatic and boring, just like I like it! It is peaceful without worrying about this crap, having to go through “liking” this & that-ugh! (Just my opinion) This gal ought to dial down the drama for sure! It worries me that she would think this woman is her friend!!
    I read an article that spoke about how many divorces these days involve facebook in some way, and I believe it was 60% according to this divorce attorney.

    • I feel that same Regina. After D-day I disabled my fb account. I was “friends” with all the conspirators in my soon-to-be ex’s affair. Just yuck. They had been following my status all along to see how “we” were doing. I despise fb because it is replete with this kind of disrespect and abuse. I will not be a party to the way it forces people to communicate. Like or disliking really leaves little room for emotional and intellectual depth, conversation or accuracy. It is also a mode of conversation that excludes and creates faux groups. There are so many stories about how teens and adults use fb to create misery, malign and socially ostracize. I want no part of that. If you are important to me, I will be in touch with you in person, by phone, letters, email or I will give my time to write accurately about myself like on CL. I like my social media with integrity just like the rest of my life.

  • You know very well that no healthy friendship can be built on such a sick foundation so why not leave them to their facebooking and get the hell out of their drama.
    No need to be her enemy…just out of your life.
    If they do reunite then set some healthy boundaries regarding the welfare of your children but do not engage on a personal level.

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