50 Shades of Subtle Nuance

criticalthinkingYou want to get my knickers in a twist? Accuse this blog of “black and white” thinking.

Ladies and gentlemen, some things are black and white, right and wrong. It’s okay to say so. Genocide? Never okay. Incest? Wrong. Child abuse? Wrong again. Rape? Bad. Mugging senior citizens? Not the done thing.

See how that goes? Judging those things as wrong was very black and white of me. I said those things were BAD. Unequivocally bad.

Probably because every example I gave was of a powerful person(s) exerting control over someone and rendering them powerless for some sick purpose. (Their extinction, an orgasm, a wallet.)

Other crimes are harder to call out, like cheating and stealing. Well, maybe they fell in love! Or maybe they really needed the money!

Last example first. Maybe a poor person really needed to steal that loaf of bread to exist. So it’s a powerless person taking back power from a powerful person (someone with bread to spare).

Cheating is often cast this way. It’s a sad sausage taking back power from the powerful societal forces of monogamy that compelled him against his or her will to stay in a loveless, sexless, marriage.

Versus the truth — that cheating is a way of exerting power over someone else unknowingly, using them to their advantage, and extracting value from them. It’s cake eating. Otherwise they’d have an honest conversation, or lawyer up and divorce.

Society still sees stealing as wrong, and our legal codes try to address degrees of wrong doing, extentuating circumstances, etc. It doesn’t stop seeing stealing as wrong, just because there are degrees of wrong or extenuating circumstances. There’s a baseline of wrongness.

To say you’re dumbing down to “black and white” thinking for calling something wrong puts you out of line with most legal codes and religious traditions in the world.

Now, may I make a subtle distinction please?  (Yes, Chump Lady is capable of subtlety, shocking I know.)

It’s one thing to say something is WRONG, it’s quite another thing to say what you are going to do about it.

Stealing is wrong. Are we going to chop off hands?

To argue that stealing is wrong does NOT mean you are in favor of chopping off hands. Get me?

A comment from Civilian Casualty Bride whose letter I answered the other day:

I realize that things are pretty black and white here, and that any amount of cheating by anyone means that the cheater should be abandoned on a deserted island immediately by people who never imagined the day before that they were capable of such a betrayal. That is not realistic.

Nobody made that argument.

I will cop to “black and white” thinking about cheating. Cheating is wrong, there is no excuse for it. None. Not in a world that gives people free choice about who they marry and viable options of therapy and divorce. Cheaters consented to marriage. No one forced them against their will to marry or agree to monogamy.

To say that cheating is wrong is very different than saying every cheater “should be abandoned on a deserted island immediately.”

That’s making the stealing-is-wrong-chop-off-their-hands leap.

Making that leap is a way to discredit people who call out something as wrong.

All of us must judge what our deal breakers are in this life, and weigh circumstances accordingly. I don’t argue for punishment for cheaters, or abandoning them on islands (although a shuttle service to Planet Narcissist would be nice). I argue for leaving them. Get away, go no contact, get on with your life. That’s punishment enough. Deny them of your awesomeness.

That’s for the folks you’re married to though. And obviously, even that is a very personal call. We all have different deal breakers. Some people reconcile. Some people divorce.

We all have to know our values and what we will and will not tolerate. Where our lines are. Some people draw lines more broadly than others. They may not vote for a politician who cheated. Or want their gallbladder taken out by a philandering surgeon.

Some relationships are chosen, and some relationships are unchosen. How you treat a cheating parent is different than how you treat a cheating spouse or friend.

The point of this blog is to get you to examine your choices. And realize that you HAVE a choice.

However, when you hang around people who do “wrong” things, and those values don’t align with your values, it chips at your soul. It erodes your sense of yourself. You become someone who makes excuses and creates extenuating circumstances to align their “wrong” with your value system. You spackle.

And then you often find yourself in the shit, when this person turns their powers of wrong on you.

Much better to call a thing a thing and know where you stand.

But I’m just black and white that way.

This column ran previously. Feel free to comment!

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Martha
Martha
8 years ago

My STBXH actually said in the Divorce Letter that I look at everything “black and white.” I didn’t 100% know exactly what he meant, but now I do. He didn’t like me judging any of his behavior as wrong. I had no right to tell him that it was wrong to see women behind my back. It was wrong. There are some things that are black and white like CL said. I was told over the years that I did certain domestically things that were wrong and I started doing them his “right way.” Sounds pretty black and white to me.

UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
8 years ago
Reply to  Martha

Exactly!!! I totally get the “domestic Things” that had to be done HIS way. I swear, he once told me I was stirring spaghetti sauce wrong!!!! Seriously!!! I asked him, “What does it matter which way the sauce gets stirred?! It’s getting stirred one way or the other.” FOr that, he refused to eat dinner, and gave me the silent treatment all night.

Good times.

somuchhurt
somuchhurt
8 years ago

Omg! Seriously! I myself am OCD and think a lot of things should be done a certain way (although I never push that on any one else-just because I think it’s the right way doesn’t mean it is lol…) BUT DAMN stirring spaghetti sauce wrong that is just crazy! As long as your stirring it how could you be doing that wrong? These cheaters continue to shock me.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago

You too? Mine criticized me for breaking spaghetti into thirds rather than halves.

IHateAsshats
IHateAsshats
6 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Mine scolded me for putting away the silverware from the dishwasher “the wrong way”. Asked snarky if I had “ever done dishes before”.

And I made breakfast, lunch, and dinner for her every night— plus did all the clean up. And I get roasted for putting the forks in the drawer the wrong way.

One of many first Red Lights.

Stupid me!

Gail
Gail
8 years ago
Reply to  Martha

I feel the same way a victim of murder feels! Just because you caught the murderer and sentenced him to life you bring back the dead victim! I lost 36 years of my life while he secretly fooled around! I lost mine and my children’s future resources while he squandered them behind back and faked his love! There is no restitution for this crime because marriage makes it legal!

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  Martha

I hear that loud and clear, Martha. They are desperate to think that they are good people and for everyone else to think so, therefore they can’t stand being called out on their behavior. And the domestic thing made me laugh, my Ex used to do that too. Plus he insisted that everything, but everything, be “even,” whatever that means. Chores, the way arguments were conducted, just everything. And usually I was found guilty of wanting my way all the time, but he couldn’t ever have his way. Rubbish. Good riddance.

Kimhopes
Kimhopes
8 years ago

Control, control, control. Absolutely spot on again. My future ex-husband, who moved out three weeks ago, and had nine weeks in the house before that, still hasn’t taken all his gear. I changed the locks last week and if he doesn’t take everything this weekend I am going to a storage place, pay for one month, send him the details. They don’t want you, but they can’t seem to just move on.

Chump Lady and Chump Nation, I want to say a great big thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am going full steam ahead thanks to this site and the wonderful people who contribute. It is such a safe environment to admit the hurt that has been done, and how blindsided you can be. I am shoring my boundaries and looking forward to a healthy relationship in the future.

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Kimhopes

I did the storage thing with Jackass. He just disappeared with all his crap stored in my basement. So I rented a small locker and put everything that would fit. I took it for 2 months because I wanted to be sure he would have 30 days from the time I sent the key. Moved it all in the midst of the polar vortex 2 yrs ago. He made a big show about how he would “send a truck” for the rest and itemized it down to a $20 lamp “in the spring.” Still waiting, 2 years and counting. He couldn’t even fully empty the locker or let me know it was empty and return my expensive lock. Once a Jackass…

Kimhopes
Kimhopes
8 years ago
Reply to  Kimhopes

Thanks for your response everybody. I live in Australia so I posted last night and then I have slept, gymmed and have been at work for a few hours. In Australia we can’t divorce until one year and one day of separation, so the storage unit is to protect myself. I don’t want there to be any claims of damage/selling items etc.
I was hoping we could be civilized, but I forgot he wasn’t civilized to me. Thanks again for being the best sounding board and support group a chump can have.

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
8 years ago
Reply to  Kimhopes

Kimhopes – When I finally divorced and got my serial cheating ex-wife out of the home years back, she left a lot of her belongings – excluding her clothes/shoes and some personal items. I asked her several times over the course of a year plus to pick up her hoard. She has always been entitled in her thinking that I would just store her shit in the family home. Oh hell no!

The day before my garage sale I called her and said “your stuff will be on the driveway for sale in the morning, if you want it pick it up or else it will be sold or thrown in the trash.” I don’t know if she was more pissed at me enforcing the decree or her reaction to my new lady-friend helping me at the garage sale. Either way the puss on her face was priceless!

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago

SureChumped I SURE wish I’d thought of that!!!! LOL!!! Priceless!!!!! 😀

uniballer1965
uniballer1965
8 years ago

The best $300 I ever spent was for the roll-off dumpster that I filled with what my XW and her family left in the home. What wasn’t worth taking to the Salvation Army or Goodwill was unceremoniously pitched.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  Kimhopes

Kimhopes, I know a chump who paid for one month of storage too, in her STBX’s name. She moved his stuff in there in a big pile, and put anything she thought he might actually want at the bottom of the pile. Perfectly elegant.

Brittneyk
Brittneyk
8 years ago
Reply to  Kimhopes

I can totally relate. I have been separated for two years and divorced for almost one…… I did the dividing of everything myself. EVERYTHING! And we are now down to the car he drives with my name on it still. He refuses to refinance it in his name. I’m gonna have to pay for a lawyer. The sad part, I know it’s the last piece is anything we “have together ” so he is tooth and nailing it all the way. I can still remember when we were separating he kept saying he would move out and I could stay in the house with all of our stuff. I now see it was so that once he was down with that whore from work he could have his marriage to fall back on. Moral of the store is, cheaters are psycho control freaks

Kellia
Kellia
8 years ago
Reply to  Brittneyk

Maybe he can drive his whore’s car. Why should he reap the benefits of driving your car, when he doesn’t deserve it. He wishes to sleep with another woman, then he can use her things.

SayNoToSparkles
SayNoToSparkles
8 years ago
Reply to  Kimhopes

“They don’t want you, but they can’t seem to just move on.”

So true! This is the part I will never understand. I guess I’m not supposed to figure it out, but it’s hella annoying! You wanted out, MOVE ON!!!!

AllOutofKibble
AllOutofKibble
8 years ago

So much of this! You wanted other women. I divorced you so you could go fuck your whore full time. Why are you mad at me? Why are you insisting on doing everything in your power to get me to react to you or call you out? Stop telling the kid I’m an alcoholic or the neighbors I cheated on you, or any other multitude of lies more outrageous than the last. I’m not going to respond, that’s what No Contact is. You wanted out, go!

UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
8 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

THIS!!!! I don’t get that either, you cheated, lied, and stole from me, married your OWhore 60 days after our divorce was final, but you spy around on ME?!?! Wtf-ever.

Kellia
Kellia
8 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

I agree with all the posts above!!! They wanted out, and we gave it to them. So why don’t they just go away???! We certainly aren’t holding them at gunpoint to stay, but instead we freely gave them what they wanted. It’s like they’re cowards. They are out, but not fully out. And when they were in, they weren’t fully in. Everything they do is half -ass. Go figure.

C.L.
C.L.
8 years ago
Reply to  Kellia

After recent cancer diagnosis, my will to live gave me the strength to finally kick out serial cheater husband of 34 years.

STBX was shocked at his kibble stream, family man image and seemingly endless supply of multi-layered delicious cake being taken away when I recently filed for divorce.

Nothing like a double clue by four beating to motivate you to do what I should have done years ago. While it’s been harsh, I will survive and look forward to a cheater free life.

He begged me to take him back as he was lonely and his OW massage parlor whore (also married) couldn’t take him in as she’s still with her husband.

Sad sausage has now turned into raging bitter man. They want out, they want in…indecisive narcissistic cowards that will suck every last breath of life out of you if you allow them.

Now the bills are coming due and soon my big settlement. He’s shocked that actions have consequences.

I’m too busy taking care of myself and looking forward to a cancer free life to care about his loneliness or how this is affecting his pocket book. Aren’t I selfish?

Losing a cheater to gain a life!

Hope49
Hope49
8 years ago
Reply to  Kellia

+1

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Kellia

I think about you all the time. This was the statement he made after the settlement was signed. Wondering what he thinks about now that the infatuation has worn off and his debt exceeds his ability to pay. The earth is scorched. He lit the match.

Kellia
Kellia
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

Ok got it Donna! Thanks for the clarification. :o)

Kellia
Kellia
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

No he doesn’t. When he’s porking other women he isn’t thinking about you. So his statement is inaccurate.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Kellia

My response was to your comment regarding them wanting out. I am in agreement. He wanted a divorce and I filed and paid for it. At the final settlement he made the statement about thinking about me all the time.
I was being sarcastic noting his losses.

UnchumpingMyself
UnchumpingMyself
8 years ago
Reply to  Kimhopes

I say don’t pay a dime for storage. Just ship his stuff to his place or a relative. This shitheads expect us to clean up their mess just as they expected to be taken care of while we were together with them and pick me dance for them when the shit hit the fan. Chump Nation and Chum Lady are life savers. Closer than ever to reaching meh.

KibbleFree_MightyMe
KibbleFree_MightyMe
8 years ago

KimHopes: UnchumpingMyself is right. Do not spend a dime on that douchebag. My DDay came after full year of the x-dbag’s affair with a married ho-worker. 23 years of my youth wasted on this bastard. I gave that asswipe 8 months before I filed, and why? Because in all that time of cheating with this LAST ho-bag, he couldn’t seem to find the time to come up with a plan for actually LEAVING.

One month after I filed, I gathered his clothes and the little crap he had generated over the years (not much considering 23 years together) and put them in about 10 black lawn bags and put them one one side of the garage. I told him on a Wednesday, “You have till this Friday to get your stuff out of my garage. By Saturday, the bags will be outside the garage by the trash cans. If they’re not gone by Sunday, they’ll all be out at the curb for bulky trash day, which is this Monday.”

Drop the mic, and walk away. These fuckers have all the time in the world to figure out their shit. NOT YOUR PROBLEM ANYMORE, chick. Seriously. At least I was civil enough to put his shit in lawn bags. Don’t let them back into your home – ever. That’s over.

Action/consequence. They don’t “get it?” Too f-ing bad.

Good luck, and DO NOT spend a dime on that turd. And DO NOT feel sorry for a f-tard who used and abused you.

KibbleFree_MightyMe
KibbleFree_MightyMe
8 years ago

Oh! And BTW – guess who came to get his shit by Friday?

At first he said, “I don’t have a place for anything.” I said, “That’s not my problem. You’ve had over a year fucking around behind my back to figure this out. Get your crap out of my garage by Friday, or you know where it’ll be.”

Then you have to DO IT. Just like filing for divorce. He thought I was going to stay paralyzed by the shock of it all, which I was, until the day I just wasn’t anymore and moved into action. One month after I filed, he knew I wasn’t fucking around with his dumbass anymore. DONE.

Sweetz
Sweetz
8 years ago

Mine left his 25ft Pontoon boat in my front yard! It is HUGE!! I have no way to move it and it is NOT in the Settlement Agreement that he can “store” it at my property. He has no place to park it at his rental. I am thinking to give him 30 days notice to pick it up and have it put in a storage yard…but then, what if he does not? I do not want to hire a tow service and have it taken to a storage yard because I will be the one who has to pay for both. So if he does not get it off my property, what can I legally do? It is solely in his name, so I cannot donate it to a charity either. Cant take it to the dumps for the same reason. Any suggestions?

OHIOGIRL
OHIOGIRL
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

In many states you can send a registered letter requesting that they move it and if they don’t it’s considered abandoned after a set period of time. In my state it’s 30 days. After that you take documentation to the title bureau and can have it titled in you name so u can dispose of the vehicle. Scrap it sell it or donate it. Call your local title bureau and find out what the rules on abandoned boats are.

Kar marie
Kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  OHIOGIRL

In florida you can donate it to the sherifs boys ranch and they will come get it. Maybe something like that where you live.

SDEE
SDEE
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

Give him a deadline, then list it for sale (to be collected) and put a For Sale sign on it

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

Can you call law enforcement?

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  kar marie

Charge him 100 a month to store it on your property

Shechump
Shechump
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

Sweetz – arson? Nah, that’s a black and white no no. How about push it into the street so the cops have to haul it away and, since it’s in his name, he will have to pay them to get it back. Or they will auction it off.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

Cheaters and their junk. ?

There is an argument to be made (in specific locales) that the Cheater’s crap is marital-property and therefore a Chump may dispose of it any way she sees fit. (Ask your lawyer and consider the court’s opinion.)

That being said (ask me about my disclaimers),…bonfires are fun. ?????

FreeWoman
FreeWoman
8 years ago

Yep, don’t pay for his storage! Does anyone know a better (legal) way to deal with the stuff they abandon? I had to leave the state, X wouldn’t help take our household apart, and so I put his stuff in a storage unit, but they made me sign a contract! It was for a year. I went back two months later, and told them my sad story, so they let me out of the contract, lucky! My poor son had to take his dad’s stuff to his place, it was kind of a mess, as usual. So, my advice, don’t go the storage unit route, figure out something else!

Livingthelifethatwaswaiting
Livingthelifethatwaswaiting
8 years ago
Reply to  FreeWoman

I had a friend lined up with her horse float to put all of his stuff in and dump it at his new house in the driveway. I told him of this plan, and as because he knew the husband of my friend, and it was all about appearances, he was round quick smart to collect his shit. You have to find the “currency”, for my ex, it was what his image in certain social circles, so appealing to this worked for me.

Patsy
Patsy
8 years ago

“cheating is a way of exerting power over someone else unknowingly, using them to their advantage, and extracting value from them.” – exactly. And in the commercial/business world, this is known as FRAUD, and in the world of the State, this is known as TREASON.

Both of which are criminalised and come with the penalty of jail (and in some countries) death. But betrayed spouses and children are just supposed to instantly suck it up and not make a big deal out of it.

UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
8 years ago
Reply to  Patsy

Exactly!!!

unicornomore
unicornomore
8 years ago
Reply to  Patsy

Yes, this. I was a great wife appliance for many reasons and he was an expert at knowing exactly when to pat me on the head and give me a kibble to keep me on the string…trouble was, he was a mean person to me the other 99% of the time and Im sure that deep seeded guilt from his cheating caused it. He was mean, ass bastard mean and then he blamed me for deserving him to be that mean.

JackiesDone
JackiesDone
8 years ago

It IS Black and White. Period.

Did you know there were laws for it and laws still remain in some states here in the USA? Stupid buried laws but laws indeed. Guess they did not really enforce them since it is likely that the enforcers were cheater’s themselves or did not see it as black and white.

Cheating is abuse of the worst kind. It is stealing from another. It is destroying another’s life and well being.

I was watching a Marriage Builder video that was explaining to couples that studies concluded that cheating was said to cause worse pain than loosing one’s child, than rape (even gang rape) etc..

While it is Black and White. Getting the betrayed safe and into their healing process is not. The damaged person needs support and guidance along the way which, so far, this is the ONLY PLACE this is done.

I was cheated on likely most of my 23 years with my Ex Cheater. With that cheating, he put me at risk of STDs for which I did get and thought about sueing him. I am at 400 times risk of cervic cancer and have already had lesions removed. I was emotionally abused as I was being lied to and put down so that he could gain the upper hand to continue his cheating while having me save face to living a normal life to outsiders.

He did not want a new girlfriend or wife, he wanted to use and abuse me and cheat all the while. There are so many things that come with cheating. His APs could have come and burnt my house down or hurt me or the husbands could have should up here to hurt him and it goes on and on an on.

Cheating is no different than any other crime except that it is MUCH MUCH worse than any other crime.

ByeByeCheater
ByeByeCheater
8 years ago
Reply to  JackiesDone

JackiesDone, I told cheater that his AP’s husbands could have sued him and we could have lost our home and the money we had saved for our daughter’s college. Or one of his ho workers could have reported him to management for sexual harassment and he could have lost his job. Or that he could have gotten one of them pregnant. Or that he could have given me an STD (which he did – HPV – but I didn’t know about it until after our divorce). His response – well, none of that happened. They think they are above consequences. And in mine’s case, I guess he was because in the end, all he really lost was me and the facade of reputable life. And he’s playing the poor him role now because his horrible wife divorced him and took a little more that he thinks he was entitled to get. Yes, I left a cheater and I’m gaining a life but it’s a struggle every day from a self esteem and trust perspective. Him? He goes to work and trolls the same women as before while looking for new ones to add to his list. No real change from what he was doing before. He doesn’t care about the kind of person he is because he likes being that person. And I’m certain he doesn’t give the mental and emotional abuse he put me though a second thought. Ugh I could go on but I’ll stop – sorry for my rant.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  ByeByeCheater

“He doesn’t care about the kind of person he is because he likes being that person. And I’m certain he doesn’t give the mental and emotional abuse he put me though a second thought.” Wow, that really resonates. It’s hard to let go of the unfairness of it all, isn’t it? I’m about 18 months out from D-Day and I can tell you one’s perspective does change over time. I wish it were faster, for all of us. But it does happen. Hang in there, ByeByeCheater!

Luziana
Luziana
8 years ago
Reply to  Fifi

My Hasbeen DID get his 15 years younger howorker pregnant. Everyone at work thought it was ADORABLE. Neither was reprimanded, his inconvenient wife and stepdaughter were erased via a quickie divorce and although he dumped her after three months to live with a THIRD woman, it’s still all a happy multinational breeding like rabbits bank family. Adultery baby is the Office Darling.

It’s not just the cheaters and the APs that think this way. The average Switzerland Bystander wants Delicious Layers of Gray Cake Too. No one wants to accept that the person with whom they spend 40 hours a week in close proximity could be going home or to lunch committing acts that cause grave pain and financial ruin to his family. Plus, they only met me at the company outing. I might be a crazy bitch who deserved it, altthough all they have to support that is the word of a lying liar.

The lying liar they know.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

As so many have said, Luz, water finds its own level. Looks like Big Slab o’ Meat (or is that Mean) found people he fits in with.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  Luziana

That’s horrible, Luziana. Disgusting the way everybody bought into the lie. I’ll bet for many it was a matter of, don’t rock the boat at work, just go along with things. I’ll guarantee some of those people are shocked and offended by his behavior. But you’re right, they don’t know you, so they won’t risk defending you. But they know what he’s done/doing is wrong, and they think he’s a fool.

SayNoToSparkles
SayNoToSparkles
8 years ago
Reply to  ByeByeCheater

I’m post 1 year and 4 months divorce and THIS is what I’m struggling with at the moment. No worries, I’ve gotten back into my counselors office lol. But I’m still here in this insecure, non-trusting, scared of rejection, scorned state and him and OW are walking off into the sunset like nothing ever happened. This shit is deep seeded.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago

They really aren’t SayNoToSparkles…trust that. They just look like that to you because you can’t see beyond the pain and agony his actions inflicted on you. I thought the same thing for 3 years…this last year I am learning the truth. satan’s kroger ho dumped him when I filed, don’t know why AND I don’t care why. They are both cheaters, they blew up 2 marriages to be together, and neither of them actually wanted to be divorced…they just wanted to cheat. They got what they wanted and it didn’t appeal apparently. satan tells everyone she is a whore and she is crazy. …it took 36 years for me to get those labels from him. Fast forward to present day and satan is working on like, number 10 crazy whore, apparently. And he can’t stop telling anyone and everyone how much he loves and misses me. WHA??!! He misses his wife appliance that’s what he misses. I was a damn good one and either he can’t find one that does as good of a job OR they are all dumping him when they see who he really is. Don’t know and don’t care BUT, trust me…your cheater is still the same as he was and whoever he is with, he will always be that guy. They aren’t happy. You got the win in this situation and he is someone else’s problem now. SCORE! 😀

Finally Awake
Finally Awake
8 years ago

They just look at the world through the prism of their own cover ups and secrecy.
Blowout fight as I start to move things forward, all of a sudden he flourishes his phone announcing the “this is a recording device you know, I’m recording everything you say”. Imagine his surprise when I told him I don’t care because I’M Not The One Whose Lying and I Have Nothing To Hide!
They are morons.

Eilonwy
Eilonwy
8 years ago
Reply to  Finally Awake

Cracks me up! They can get so swept away by their own narrative and power games that they seem to sincerely forget that facts are real things.

BetterDays
BetterDays
8 years ago
Reply to  Eilonwy

Eilonwy – EXACTLY. Well said.

Justbeginninginthismess
Justbeginninginthismess
8 years ago

It’s actually nice to see someone taking a stand and calling it for what it is! Cheating is wrong and it’s horrible!! Jackie..I am so very sorry!!

uniballer1965
uniballer1965
8 years ago

For those into logic, it’s the strawman fallacy. “You are against cheating, you want to exile cheaters on an island.”

The first is true. The second sounds good, but I know it’s not my place to choose.

But I do choose not to associate with such people. Those who make the initial assertion are using the strawman fallacy.

Carol
Carol
8 years ago

When someone accuses you of seeing things too black and white, you can place a bet on they are upset that they aren’t getting cake. Gray is cake.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  Carol

How right you are, Carol.

JackiesDone
JackiesDone
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Got it!!!!

ICanSeeTheMehComing!
ICanSeeTheMehComing!
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Congratulations, CL! It was a broken road for you to get here, but you triumphed! An inspiration to us all.

Your voice and the members of CN have helped in ways no one else and nowhere else could have over the last 18 months since D-Day.

I’ll be ordering extra copies of your book because I know some people who’ll be needing it soon.

God bless.

Chumptitude
Chumptitude
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Congratulations CL, I downloaded it and can’t wait to read it!!

namedforvera
namedforvera
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Gee Whiz, I hope Fiona doesn’t show up with all her Black & Whitery! heh.

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Black and white? Whatever, you cheat you’re gone!! POS ex…1 strike, you’re out! Call me a hard ass, I can live with that! What I can’t live with is a liar and a cheater! (Thank goodness for Hefty garbage bags….they fly very nicely in the air when tossing cheaters out…..just saying!)

Chumpish
Chumpish
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Congrats!

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Can I load it onto my PC or is it just for Kindle? (Not techie saavy here.)

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  nomoreskankboy

I somehow was able to download Kindle onto my PC after I ordered a hard-cover book that also had an ebook. (But don’t ask how I did it–not tech savvy either.)

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Thank you, Tempest….I’ll give it a try.

ForgeOn!
ForgeOn!
8 years ago
Reply to  nomoreskankboy

Yes, there is a selection ‘Kindle for PC’. I have it on my laptop. And I am not ‘tech savvy’ either!

nomoreskankboy
nomoreskankboy
8 years ago
Reply to  ForgeOn!

Thank you, ForgeOn!

Shechump
Shechump
8 years ago
Reply to  nomoreskankboy

On no – I just pre-ordered my copy off Amazon in book form, as I still like books to read in bed. But, I’m far too anxious to read it, so guess I’ll go get my Kindle edition now, and I can still have the book – when it arrives – to read on the bookshelf, and for others to read. So, you got 2 of my orders today, C/L!

LIningUpDucks
LIningUpDucks
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Awesome!

ByeByeCheater
ByeByeCheater
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

I pre-ordered so mine auto downloaded this morning!

HeLovesMeHeLovesMeNot
HeLovesMeHeLovesMeNot
8 years ago
Reply to  ByeByeCheater

Got mine this morning too!! Yayyyy!! 🙂

Martha
Martha
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Yippee!!!

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Tracy I can’t thank you enough for helping me save myself. Yours was the ONLY voice of reason I had heard after 2 years of mind warping agony, soul shattering abuse. I thank you from the bottom of my healed / healing heart. THANK YOU TRACY! THANK YOU CHUMP NATION! WE ARE MIGHTY!!!!!

Congratulations on the new book! 😀

I am still envisioning the future filled with billboards announcing an end to the lost, bleeding, can’t eat or sleep or function chump…a future where THE TRUTH is but a click away CHUMPLADY.COM LEAVE A CHEATER GAIN A LIFE!

…there will be FIRE ANTS too… 😀

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

Jeep, I can feel your anger. It gives you focus; makes you stronger.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bB7fgX6H9_M

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Dude 🙂 …sayin! 😀

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0BWlvnBmIE

I love your heart Ian! 😀 Thank you for all the chuckles, belly laughs, rollin on the floor can’t stop laughing my hiney off AND the brilliant rhetoric and mindful advice! Match Girl is a fool…someday soon the reality of WHO she so blatantly threw away will settle on her like grave dirt…keep your heart close Ian…do NOT let her near it! Somewhere out there is a love worth your heart…she isn’t and never was that love. match girl never deserved a love like yours (nor does she deserve caps :D) Stay awesome Ian! Its good to know you are in the world 🙂

uneffingbelievable
uneffingbelievable
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

Mehphista and Ian – “Rise” was my anthem during the worst of it. Would blast it as loud as possible. John Lydon is an incredible guy – a quote: “I never take any commitment lightly. I never take my wife lightly. I never did and I never will. That’s permanent. That’s true love.”

Anger IS an energy, Ian.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago

Someone the other day asked me *the* question: Ramones or Sex Pistols? My answer, as always: Sex Pistols. What’s more punk than tweaking the Queen’s nose, signing a deal with a major-label, producing only one album, and then breaking-up while laughing all the way to the bank? Add this Johnny Rotton quote, and I know it’s always been the Pistols. Thanks uneffingbelievable.

uneffingbelievable
uneffingbelievable
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Sex Pistols all the way. My absolute favorite band of all time, though, is The Replacements. They thumbed their noses at everything, including fame. Got to see Paul and Tommy last year in Detroit. Paul Westerberg = poet.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

So much love!

Mehphista
Mehphista
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep
Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Mehphista

Mehphista,

I knew that was a PiL reference you made the other day. “Anger is an energy.”

Divorce Minister
Divorce Minister
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Just downloaded my copy! Yay!!!

ANC
ANC
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Woot!

ANC
ANC
8 years ago

I’ve been accused of being a black and white thinker by the cheater. His main assertion is that there is only my way or the high way. That’s his mindfuckery about clearly what is right and what is wrong. To try to bend it into “being unreasonable” as if finding out a large chunk of your life was a sham and your reaction was/is anger.

I told the asshole that in the case of cheating, rape murder, embezzlement, fraud, deception, frankunderwooodiness (his hero btw) that it is wrong. I mentioned if I were in a restaurant ordering a steak while thinking of having a pizza-in a steak place-and then demanding the steak place make you a pizza is unreasonable.

I like to remind him sometimes that I am also very pragmatic. THAT is something he fails at. All cheaters suck at impulse control and having a rational mind to really think through the ENTIRETY of their decisions.

Thumbs up for black and white thinking! Count me it! Count the Framers of our constitution in it too. Pretty simple shit if you ask me.

BetterDays
BetterDays
8 years ago
Reply to  ANC

THIS. “I’ve been accused of being a black and white thinker by the cheater. His main assertion is that there is only my way or the high way. That’s his mindfuckery about clearly what is right and what is wrong. To try to bend it into “being unreasonable” as if finding out a large chunk of your life was a sham and your reaction was/is anger.”

And THIS: “All cheaters suck at impulse control and having a rational mind to really think through the ENTIRETY of their decisions.”

You put that so well. The Entitled One was the exact same way.

Sasanka
Sasanka
8 years ago
Reply to  BetterDays

Wow, except mine did not say black and white. He often said I am very rigid and ‘unbending’ and if someone ‘dropped me from a bridge’ (!) I would fall into pieces. Looking back I’m amazed how I failed to see the violence in these words. (He was among other things physical abuser).

He would say things like If you die today me and the kids will be just fine..(He had 0 interest in ‘the kids’). Did not even know their date of birth, or where their socks are kept. But I paused at that one. The death references should have jolted me to reality…but the fog gets so thick a few years into it. I didn’t even recognize who I was by then. He would say often that I cannot ‘adjust’ myself to ‘changes in life’, read ‘shut up’ when he embezzles, abuses, puts us in jeopardy etc.
I guess he meant I cannot adjust my values to his crap. Well, he was right! Man, I just wish it did not take me so long!!!

He also loved to throw things like me being unforgiving..(did I mention he is a Jesus cheater?) Of course he would brazenly ignore such pesky things like confession, contrition, genuine repentance etc, straight to my need to forgive (and shut up already!) lol These were huge red flags about his ‘c’hristianity’. I never ever bought that, thankfully. And it’s amazing how they are all entitled, impulsive and immature, hate any sort of rules, and authority – worldly or divine!…just like George Simon says, their main problem is they despise submission!!! To anything. In their head they are god. Their life motto is to defy rules (you are not the boss of me).You telling me to get a job? you’re not the boss of me! You telling me to not steel the rent? You’re not the boss of me! It is unbelievable delusional PRIDE matched only to Satan’s. They are insane in their own way, just not mentally ill. And they will be held accountable both here and later. Love that bit. End of my rant! lol! Thank you for this safe place and the amazing encouragement and strength we all get here, thank you, Chump Lady!

ANC
ANC
8 years ago

Count me IN

donna
donna
8 years ago

When we look at the excuses for cheating it always lands on our lap. If we look at our younger independent selves we knew when we were married our vows had meaning. Marriage is a boundary. It says we made the choice to be monogamous. That is black and white.

Cheating can be subtle and blatant. All men look at other women and women look at other men. I glance, yet have no underlying intentions. Cheaters linger with the looking. They are shopping. Justification is the first sign. Yet that goal post has shifted. Then the first affair comes and we were prepped for this with those subtle signs we ignored because they were explained away. Its all about boundaries, they have none. Looking is a choice and it is subtle undermining. It begins with them setting up the stage as our self esteem erodes over time. Reconciliation is the belief they can change. Yet it is black and white, the goal post moved past the point of tolerance and trust. No contact. Divorce is the best boundary ever.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

donna you are so awesome 🙂 Thank you for explaining that so well. satan to a t.

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

I get the feeling that my ex-boyfriend ‘shopped’ for my replacement, but I don’t think that he cheated on me. I suspect that he just has sex with his new lover within a few days of dumping me. I envy him–no break in sex, love, and companionship my STBX and my ex-boyfriend seem to have no problem finding partners. I don’t anticipate finding a long-term relationship ever, but if I do, I imagine starting it no earlier than ten years from now with a man I don’t care much for who doesn’t care much for me. I would probably have to ambush one with a tranquilizer dart or the promise of no-strings-attached sex and drag him back to my cave.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  RockStarWife

RSW–I am breathing a sigh of relief that your sense of humor is back! I know the pain isn’t over, but I’ve always found seeing the absurdity of a situation is the first step in healing. (Should you run into your cheater X, feel free to use the club on him first, just don’t drag him back to your lair.)

RockStarWife
RockStarWife
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Thanks, Tempest. I think that I have reached the point of ‘saturation.’ I am tired of these chronologically middle aged men in my life behaving like insensitive, disordered, dishonest pre-pubescent boys. Heck, my boys (sons) behave better than these ‘grown-ups’ do! Thank God! One incentive to stay alive is to raise my sons so that they don’t treat their partners like crap and they don’t get abused by others, especially partners. I hope that I can help my students develop good ethical frameworks and coping skills, too. Maybe too late for me to avoid much damage, but I might prevent a young person from getting into the bad situations I have gotten into.

Amiisfree
Amiisfree
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

THIS!!!!!

Martha
Martha
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

“Shopping.” That’s exactly it! I always felt like he was shopping for someone else. Keeping his options open. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve gone someplace and he’d scouring the room for something. No matter where we went, he was always looking it seemed. I thought it was my imagine for the longest time, but almost two years ago we went to an amusement park with the kids and he was scouring for something a lot of the time. A few weeks later I heard him tell a co-workers TEENAGE daughter that he was looking for her there (she went there often — summer pass.) If that’s not CREEPY and predator behavior, I don’t know what is!

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago

Thread Hijack: All you lucky Kindle owners who preordered the ecopy of Tracy’s book should have received it by today. Don’t forget to head over to Amazon *immediately* and leave a review. (You know those pesky trolls will be up and atem to post ‘bitter bunny’ reviews.)

http://www.amazon.com/Leave-Cheater-Gain-Life-Survival/dp/0762458968/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1459859450&sr=8-1&keywords=tracy+schorn

Viva la [chump] revolution!!!
—Chump Guevera

JackiesDone
JackiesDone
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Great, downloading tonight on my tablet!!! I

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  JackiesDone

Even if you don’t have time to write a review yet, go and click “Helpful” on the five-star reviews.

Seriously torn between raspberry and yellow berets. Yellow with raspberry stripes?

Congratulations, Tracy!

BetterDays
BetterDays
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I pre-ordered it and now I can’t find my Kindle. Waaahhh!!! There needs to be a bell on that thing.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Oops, just saw Tracy left the same message above (which just shows you the importance of leaving a review).

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Which raises the issue of what color we should adopt for our revolutionary berets?

White for goodness? Red for ‘kicking ass and taking names’? Orange with black stripes for Tiger fierceness? Raspberry (if you’re a Prince fan)?

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

How about orange for CL’s curly hair!

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  CalamityJane

I’m all for making our headgear a tribute to Tracy, but since she’s blond IRL, how about yellow berets (with fierce black tiger stripes)?

UnderConstruction
UnderConstruction
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Seems like black and white could be fitting!!

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Right-O on the hair color…

I think maybe curly wigs, that would be a show of support.

Shechump
Shechump
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Green Berets – yanno, just to show we’re ecological too! Talk about Tracy’s and C/N’s contributions to worthy causes at Christmas.

ForgeOn!
ForgeOn!
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I gotta vote for ‘Orange’. My favorite color.

I am a blonde like Tracy and I do not look good in yellow!
However, what ever color is chosen, I will wear it with PRIDE!!!

Love all ya all!

Dango
Dango
8 years ago

Hey! Read what the Baha’i writings have to say about infidelity — there is a fine! and it’s doubled for each successive offense!! and torment after death for those who do not repent to God —

(1) Kitab-i-Aqdas, paragraph 49
God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and
adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice: nine
mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat
the offence. Such is the penalty which He Who is the
Lord of Names hath assigned them in this world; and in
the world to come He hath ordained for them a
humiliating torment. Should anyone be afflicted by a
sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto
his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto
whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that
which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the
Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised.

(2) Persian Hidden Words #67,
O CHILDREN OF FANCY! Know, verily, that while the radiant dawn breaketh above the horizon of eternal holiness, the satanic secrets and deeds done in the gloom of night shall be laid bare and manifest before the peoples of the world.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

Great minds Dango 🙂 I was just looking at Dante’s 9 Circles of Hell the other night…hummmm…

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago

Now, really, what could be wrong about setting up secret lunches, and closed-door copy room encounters and hotel room trysts where two people in love or lust fuck like bunnies, while then coming home and kissing their spouse with tainted lips and pretending that nothing happened? And for that to happen day after day after day, where marital resources and emotional energy are channeled to a third party at the expense of the spouse/partner (who is typically being devalued as the affair continues). It’s all in the name of love/lust. These things just haaapppppeeeennnn…

(okay, off to break some pottery)

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

I love you Tempest 🙂

…kissing spouse with tainted lips…oh Tempest… satan came home one evening, after weeks of the raging/silent treatment…and bent me over his knee and kissed me deeply (now UGH, SPIT SPIT!!!) and then smiled like the cat that ate the canary and said, ‘Isn’t that just sooo sweet tasting…’

…vile…nasty…sick…demented…insane…

…yes…there needs to be a law…sanity needs to be restored in our world. What kind of monster bred this monster? …what kind of society lets it live and breathe and prey on others? If it were a crazed animal inflicting harm someone would shoot it…take it down…our society pays them flippin HOMAGE! Ugh…aliens…they gotta be from another planet outside our solar system…gotta be!

Anita
Anita
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

Jeep, your ex is one sick ass mother fucker .

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Anita

he truly is Anita. There aren’t words strong enough to describe the depravity…it was and is mind bending…I wish I could ‘un-remember’. I don’t think he would survive the treatment he dished out to me those last 3 years. I don’t think any of these abusers would… All to meet their own selfish needs and not be found out. …now that is unbelievable…

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeep

Oh, Jeep, that is just too evil. What a disgusting, manipulative, vile pig (and exactly the reason why your X is on my top-5 Tony-Soprano-treatment list).

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

i have no idea how he sleeps…or lives with himself. Tempest he truly is a monster.

Brittneyk
Brittneyk
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Nothing makes me more pissed off than it just happened, or I didn’t mean for this to happen. Really? You didn’t mean to spend our savings on hotel rooms with your co worker? Oh, and your penis just happened to fall into her vagina? So fucking stupid. Some times I wish I could have a do over, where I could laugh in his face like the moron he is.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  Brittneyk

Me too, Brittneyk! The things I should have said to him!

Kellia
Kellia
8 years ago
Reply to  Brittneyk

Yes he did mean all of it to happen. It was a series of conscious decisions made all along the way, to keep contact, respond to the communications, rather than cut if off, put a stop to it, then to take off his clothes, have sex. He had the choice to stop every step of the way, but he DECIDED to continue EACH TIME. He did mean for it to happen. I’m so sick and tired of this bullshit line that these people throw out there! It’s a standard line they use.

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  Kellia

Right well km I didnt mean for it to happen just happened! No fuckhead he meant for it to happen cause he went looking for it. How stupid do they think we are? For all the ladies and gents who are honest and true here and have been fucked over by low life POD CREATURES, for all the children and family members left behind and ignored and screwed over. FUCK. ALL. OF. THEM!

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

and can someone give me the argument against leaving cheaters on a desert island?

ICanSeeTheMehComing!
ICanSeeTheMehComing!
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Like Mr. Sparkles once wrote in a remorseless response to my accusations of cheating, “Like I said, I hate myself for what I have done and the pain I have caused you and I am through not being able to look at myself in the mirror with confidence and liking who I am.”

Narcissists don’t like black and white… the need the edges of their personality disordered selves blurry so that they can constantly morph into someone new for someone new. Magic.

Let’s hope the courts see it this way tomorrow – motion hearing to uphold my Pre-Nup. Praying the legal system really does see black and white.

ICanSeeTheMehComing!
ICanSeeTheMehComing!
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

To paraphrase from Jaws… “Gonna need a bigger boat!”

PF
PF
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

A cheater desert island is uninhabited by chumps, and without chumps, it’s a harsh existence for cheaters to coexist with other cheaters and they’ll starve to death without kibbles.

BetrayedNoMore
BetrayedNoMore
8 years ago
Reply to  PF

Reminds me of “Lord of the Flies

Tessie
Tessie
8 years ago
Reply to  BetrayedNoMore

I was thinking more along the lines of they would just eat each other.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Tessie

Ewwww. But Tessie, you know they’d like that, right?

yo
yo
8 years ago
Reply to  PF

Hahahahahaaaaa No chumps=no cake! “Let them eat (moldy) bread.” haha

Chumptitude
Chumptitude
8 years ago
Reply to  PF

Well said PF!

ringinonmyownbell
ringinonmyownbell
8 years ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Then we should treat them like the goats that they are on the Galápagos Islands. He!He! Bad me.

Movingon@51
Movingon@51
8 years ago

Exactly, JackiesDone! Marriage is a legal contract but when you are frauded, everyone looks the other way! I will never marry again because it’s like giving someone a license to cheat you, emotionally, physically and financially. Ex and I had not only a family but a business we invested in. Yes, I got a settlement but will never know how fair that was because he was way ahead of me in terms of hiding $ and assets. If we were not married I would have had more rights to sue his ass. In addition the laws are so lax with deadbeat dads in trying to get them to pay up as well as support for the other partner! If it was any other kind of business transaction we would have more power and rights, but because you’re married to the criminal, everyone thinks it’s ok.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Movingon@51

My cheater STBXW out-earns me by a wide margin. We are divorcing in a “fault-divorce” state. She’s a lawyer, but she’s not interested in justice. I’ll keep y’all posted.

Ninja chump
Ninja chump
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Ugh. Divorcing a lawyer has to be the seventh layer of hell. My sympathies.

Mikky
Mikky
8 years ago
Reply to  Movingon@51

‘Because you’re married to the criminal, everyone thinks it’s OK.’ Definitely THIS. My cheating XH was my second husband. I always said I wouldn’t get married again after the first divorce which was due to marrying young and being incompatible. I gave in with XH because I thought it was going to be a more spiritual,open, honest union. But no, I was indeed fooled again.

I now think that on the whole ( I appreciate there are some exceptions) marriage is a very bad idea for women. Despite some legal amendments since the Victorian era, it is essentially a snake pit from which clambering may well indeed cost you your life if not your soul.

I experienced emotional,physical, financial etc abuse – and really there was no real remedy as I had indeed allowed this predator into my life and my home. As Donna says above, ‘Divorce is the best boundary’ and I intend to keep it that way.

Ninja chump
Ninja chump
8 years ago
Reply to  Mikky

I agree with this 100%. We still have a long way to go. If any other contract was broken the way a marriage contract is by cheaters you would pay massively. I really do think cheating should be a criminal offense. It can kill you!!!! Imagine a business partner defrauding you, lying for years about assets, activities, moral character etc, giving you a potentially life threatening disease and then being able to walk away scot free once busted? There’s absolutely no way they would get away with it.
Marriage is a CONTRACT, contract law is law school 101, why are the laws not applied to cheaters?
Ugh.

Kiwichump
Kiwichump
8 years ago
Reply to  Ninja chump

Unfortunately down here the law makes no distinction between de facto relationships and marriage. You can’t protect your financial independence by not getting married as I have learned at my expense and the choice between total emotional and financial commitment to each other and a purely emotional commitment has been removed. No one has gained anything except crooks.

Off the crazy train
Off the crazy train
8 years ago
Reply to  Ninja chump

If not criminal, then we should at least be able to pursue civil action against them.

sephage
sephage
8 years ago

Totally agree on this.

It’s not just women, either; men also get screwed in the marriage arrangement in terms of how most of the laws are enforced concerning infidelity.

Any marriage I have from this point will have a very specific prenup attached to it.

chew
chew
8 years ago
Reply to  sephage

I actually think Men get screwed more than woman in divorce. And I got what everyone considered a great settlement. Her and the AP/bf now have 7 figures to live on and get half my pension in the future. She never worked full time until she left me for the AP. Cheating does not matter in my state and I was too ethical to hide money.

He is older than me, and in debt. AP hit the jackpot. I lost half my net worth.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  chew

Chew I am hoping retirement is not in your near future. Does she get it when you retire? Or do you have to pay her now? Be sure to update your beneficiaries on your pension.

Portia
Portia
8 years ago
Reply to  chew

The reverse could happen if the woman was the main breadwinner. If the laws are set up to divide things 50/50 in a divorce — regardless of the reason for the divorce — then there are always going to be inequities. There is always a problem when there is a big income difference between partners. Most of the laws date back to a time when women did not work outside of the home, and without those laws, or the laws allowing women to own property, etc., in their own names, the woman could be completely destitute unless she danced to whatever tune her spouse played.

The dissolution of a marriage is like the dissolution of a business agreement as far as the courts are concerned. They cannot really listen to endless arguments about who bought the pink lamp or who sat in the blue chair more often — they have to have some type of rules to regulate the distribution of property. Many of us know that any “evidence of wrongdoing” we obtained by joining the marriage police is probably only the tip of the iceberg. How much financial punishment can be doled out to the erring spouse? How many “crimes” did the wayward one actually commit? If the police catch a career criminal and have enough evidence to incarcerate or even get the death penalty for even 1 crime — the zillion other crimes the criminal committed during a lifetime of criminal activity are not individually punished.

Most of us are emotionally devastated because of the betrayal, but we also suffer financial loss. We may be accused of black and white thinking — but I know in my experience although the ex felt entitled to cheat wherever and whenever he pleased, he also did not want me to feel any entitlement to act the same way. I was not supposed to “move on” even after the divorce!! Ridiculous, right? One rule for cheaters, another for chumps.

Some people never make a decision over whether or not something is right or wrong — others make instant decisions. It has to do with personality type. I may listen to shades of guilt arguments for many other crimes — but I doubt anyone would ever let me actually be a judge in Cheater Court. If two people agree to be exclusive and one of them changes the agreement without the knowledge of the other — that is grounds for dissolution of the agreement. No buts or whining allowed.

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago
Reply to  chew

This is my opinion. The cheater should damn near lose everything especially in a long term marriage. If there are kids grown or not consideration should be taken for them. Support or if older in trust if. I made asswipe give me half his business in trust for our kids not that whores kids. I have nothing to do with the running of it but im half owner. On paper im not reresponsible for anything. Thats on him. Upon his demise he will go first anger will get him im sure I will deal with it as im half owner and will come to me in trust for our kids. Hers can go fuck themselves they are so proud mom got herself a man married he was no problem. Leave your bitch wife marry mom all is good! Even if they do get back together and marry she has no claim on his business as it was in service seventeen years before she met him. I made him do an iron clad will that cant be changed part of his freedom requirements. Not for me for the kids. But the one who cheats abandons and fucks over those left behind to go onto a brand new sparkly family should lose damn near everything! In my opinion.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  chew

That totally sucks, chew.

Lola Granola
Lola Granola
8 years ago

Black and white ROCKS.

Since my experience of Mr Ambivalence and his overlapping relationships, I have found that taking a black and white approach to all future prospective dates has protected me from some very dodgy men.

I don’t do ‘it’s complicated’. I don’t do grey. And I especially don’t do 50 Shades of Grey!

onthehill
onthehill
8 years ago

“However, when you hang around people who do “wrong” things, and those values don’t align with your values, it chips at your soul. It erodes your sense of yourself. You become someone who makes excuses and creates extenuating circumstances to align their “wrong” with your value system. You spackle.

This is So Very True. My ex has been gone for 2 1/2 years (after I forced him out). In recovering my soul and person, I have picked up on some automatic behaviors I gleaned from him during our 30 year marriage. Several of those behaviors and thought patterns I DID NOT bring into the marriage, and NEED to break those habits. It is an eye-opening journey recovering who you are. Mainly, mine has to do with how money is handled.

I wound up living in a way, that had you had said to me this is how I would be living down the road – I would have RUN the other direction. But I was very young (he was 11 years my senior) and really didn’t know any better. Unfortunately, he had a major hand in shaping my adulthood. But I am SO much stronger now that he’s gone.

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
8 years ago

Cheating is wrong. That’s it. It is black and white. The cheaters bring the gray.

Definition of gray (as an adjective): dull and nondescript; without interest or character. – Describes a cheater pretty spot on doesn’t it?

Mike B.
Mike B.
8 years ago

What’s more is that just like that commenter you quoted, cheaters like to amplify the stakes so that they can force you into facing a false dichotomy.

For my ex, it was, “I know that you are supposed to think that cheaters are terrible people, but it’s not that black and white.”

Well for my part, I never said that cheaters had to be terrible people. Those were her words. But she was trying to force me into a choice between calling her Hitler and placing her actions in some kind of moral gray area. A false choice if ever there was one.

Now she has turned out to be pretty damn awful, but cheating by itself didn’t make her so. Doing a terrible thing doesn’t necessarily mean you’re bad to the core (though it’s harder to do something like that unless something is rotten about you). I’d argue that she cheated because she’s terrible, not the other way around. But it did make her untrustworthy. It didn’t mean she’d never do any good for the world, but she was no good for me anymore.

Chumptitude
Chumptitude
8 years ago
Reply to  Mike B.

“I know that you are supposed to think that cheaters are terrible people, but it’s not that black and white.”

Is gracing cheaters with an answer worth it? Not really, to cheaters, NC and your silence feels like the loudest fuck you imaginable. But if you are unable to stay NC, how about replying something like: “It’s true nothing is completely black and white. Hitler took great care of his pet dogs, that’s just not what he ended up being most remembered for.”

PF
PF
8 years ago

What a twit!!! The cheater thought she wrote a brilliant cheater apology letter on her blog. It’s obvious she imagined she was writing something profound and get sympathetic kibbles. Cheaters want attention, they can twist their shit behaviour into acting as though they are the victim.

Watch out…..when their agenda is challenged, they get mean, they insult, they get judgy about being judged. How ironic that she is judgy for being judged. She spouts the predictable black and white straw man argument and embellishes with a dramatic desert island prison scenario as though she’s a victim.

This cheater wanted her blog to be a place of cheap kibbles, a place where she would get attention and admiration for her poor writing skills and fucked up character.

She’s a typical cheater, a self involved bullshit spouting, passive aggressive judgy cheater.

BetterDays
BetterDays
8 years ago

Not long ago during a NC fail, The Entitled One said to me, “So according to your view, the only moral thing for me to do was leave?” I said, “No, first you were supposed to sit me down and have a conversation with me about how things were so bad for you that if they didn’t change, you’re going to leave. Then if things didn’t change, yes, you were supposed to leave before pursuing other women.”

He gave me this befuddled look as though he couldn’t imagine why he would do that instead of keeping me around to fulfill the needs I was fulfilling, and find other women to fulfill his other needs.

ByeByeCheater
ByeByeCheater
8 years ago
Reply to  BetterDays

BetterDays, mine played this card – everything else about our marriage was so good except sex that I thought if I could satisfy myself sexually outside our marriage then we would be ok.

Word salad much? Yeah, he should have talked to me BEFORE HE made the decision to make sure HE was happy. Apparently our marriage was on the line and HIS serial cheating was what would save it – for us.

BetterDays
BetterDays
8 years ago
Reply to  ByeByeCheater

Ugh. Yep. The most important thing in the world is that THEY are happy. Who are you there to think you have needs too?

DeeL
DeeL
8 years ago
Reply to  BetterDays

The x spent 2 solid years “detaching” from our marriage. It was very hard for him, poor, sad sausage, and he did not feel the need to let me know, because I “didn’t love him anyway”. Ummm, thank you for letting me know what I feel or not, and also thank you, for telling me that we would grow old together and he loved me every single day of those two years, all while he was out interviewing my replacement, because I was too mean to converse with.

Dango
Dango
8 years ago

What if the cheater tells the truth, the whole truth and is sincerely sorry — and his actions show this? He makes himself accountable to family and friends, gets a job so he’s not masturbating to porn, and finally feels a bit of accomplishment (instead of scoring with female souls), he aligns himself with a decent, happily-married man who provides him with mentorship — and more legal and financial stuff — what would the chumps think about cheaterpants now a grown-up?

LovedaJackass
LovedaJackass
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

Time. He has to pass the test of time. And the Chump has to have some time, also, to de-program and work on not spackling. Hitting the hopium pipe often allows us to hear what we want to hear, and cheaters are good at lying and covering up. They are perfectly capable of following a script for genuine naugahyde remorse. I simply don’t trust that people are “sorry.” And I don’t think people change because they get caught cheating (or stealing, etc.). How much initiative has the cheater taken for getting individual counseling with a competent therapist? How thoroughly has the cheater unpacked the entitled thinking that allowed the affair in the first place? What has replaced the habits and routines that supported an affair? Is it remorse or self-pity and preservation of cake?

And frankly, I would never be able to look at the guy and not think “you preferred someone else to me” and were wiling to drag my heart down a thousand miles of gravel road behind your truck. Cheating for me–one and done. That’s one of the great earned blessings of recovering from infidelity. I know my own worth. Now, maybe a cheater can have some kind of epiphany–but the devaluation that has to go on to turn attention away from a spouse and toward an AP makes it hard for me to believe that they truly love and respect their partner as a separate person and not a spouse-appliance.

CAGal
CAGal
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

You know – I think one of the things my STBX could do is dangle the carrot of “normal” in front me just often enough that I would breathe a sigh of relief and think “Oh thank god, he’s fixed”. So he would eat right, or go to the gym, or read a book and have something interesting to say… something that made me think we were back on track to what I thought our relationship would be. But I realized it never stuck after a while. He would eventually stop going to the gym, or decide the hobby was dumb… whatever it was he would go back to his selfish ways. On the far end of the spectrum, I would go a long time without finding his car at his AP house, then one day… I would drive by and there it was. He was back to his old behavior and couldn’t even be bothered to be good about hiding it.

So in my case – my answer would be: No – I would not think he had changed. Generously speaking, I would say that he was going through the motions of actually trying to be “normal”, but I know this game and give it 2 weeks or 2 months or 6 months, but he will go back to his selfish ways. Being less generous, I would know that he is trying to dangle the “normal” carrot in front of me so that he doesn’t have to face the consequences of his behavior.

But none of these things represent true change. He’s a selfish, obese, toddler in declining health who wants to fuck his coworker while the wife appliance runs things at home and is on record that he hasn’t gotten rid of me because he “doesn’t want to give me half”. I know those carrots will eventually rot and I will still be left with nothing.

Sweetz
Sweetz
8 years ago
Reply to  CAGal

A man convinced against his will…is of the same opinion still.

Sweetz
Sweetz
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

Dingo,
Porn is only the tip of the iceberg. Mine gave up the hard core porn after being caught over and over. Then he learned to excite himself with Youtube video’s, movies with sex scenes…and eventually, real live women customers. Once he gave himself permission to have a woman “customer friend” in the back room of his store “for lunches” together every week…it was OVER for me. A Mentor cannot follow him around 24/7 and see into his soul as he is in daily contact with women. Mine learned to juxtapose his lusting…using me after he got his libido fully charged with his contact from other women. So no, he did not masturbate per se…he simply saved that urge for when he came home and “finished” himself off using me instead.

So while he did “repent” from Porn…there were so many other ways to continue his lusting…ways that do not show so readily…ways that only someone very close who can discern his actions with his opportunities would know.

This is a heart character problem that goes to the core of his soul. What he tells himself, and who he is cannot change because he got himself a babysitter mentor to report to. He needs to spend years alone and face himself. He needs to stop lying and justifying about his desires and urges, he needs to stop toying around on the edges of immorality. Then and only then will he be considered safe and worthy for marriage. Takes YEARS of self examination to get there.

JackiesDone
JackiesDone
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

Sweetz, your story is real mix. My god who would have thought we would be having these conversstions…. just imagine what we dont know.

Ian Dubito
Ian Dubito
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Hahahaaaaaa, Ian! I’ll never think of unicorns the same way again.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Ian–that picture is going to haunt my dreams, and not in a good way. (But yes, I’m still laughing.)

BetterDays
BetterDays
8 years ago
Reply to  Ian Dubito

Bwhaahahahahahahaha. LOL! I kind of want to print this out and hang it in my office. All it needs is Right Said Fred “I’m Too Sexy” playing in the background.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ

Dango
Dango
8 years ago
Reply to  BetterDays

Sooooo funny!!! Hahahahaha! I’m too sexy for my shirt / hat / car/ you —

Sweetz
Sweetz
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

What if the cheater who appears to be in “repentance” CLEARLY understands that in order to be viewed as “credible”, he/she would need to keep up the good work, for say…five YEARS out? Just stay gone, work on himself and wait and see if their words match up with their works.
If they did, then I’d then say, “good for you…you just might make a great catch…for someone else”. After that, I might even be willing to drop his new wife an encouraging word and well wishes. As for me, the relationship was too corrupted to go back…cannot do the triggers or suspicions again…I would still be guarding my heart regardless of his “repentance”. Not my idea of a good life.

If a cheater cannot pay the small price of a good five years to show consistent change and sterling behavior, they are likely, short of that, going to say “fuck it” and revert back to their old ways out of self pity and entitlement. ONLY TIME WILL TELL.

A cheater needs to repent for their own sake…not for me.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Sweetz

Repenting for cheaters is synonymous with going further underground. Why not file for a divorce and have the cheater humbly sign a settlement agreement giving you control over all the assets, child support, and alimoney through YOUR lawyer. Let him know it will only be finalized if he continues to cheat. That’s an amazing solution that doesn’t cost you another five years. It will take them all of five minutes to say no. Problem solved. File.

Sweetz
Sweetz
8 years ago
Reply to  donna

Yea…I’d file for divorce regardless of the crocodile tears he displays or the “mentors” he latches on to. I would make NO DEALS with the devil…doing a post nup just prolongs the agony. Just cut him loose. I’d tell him that the Settlement needs to be fair and equitable, and that he needs to spend several years facing off with all of his many demons. HE is the one who needs to find out what HIS attitudes, triggers, slippery slopes, beliefs, and desires are…and permanently change those. He needs to BECOME the man that he pretended to be. This takes YEARS to do because doing so means that he will have to face the callousness of his own heart and the pain that he caused others. This is the reason why cheaters jump from one chump to another…because they do NOT want to face off with who they really are. It is much easier for them to feign repentance before the divorce rather than having to prove it for years afterward.

Meanwhile, I’d get on with my healing and my life…rather than watching and waiting on the sidelines to “see” if I can find a pulse in him. Marriage police days are over for me…I mean, really, how would you even KNOW if the change was real and lasting unless you remained in the same household with him and kept policing him? Not an option for me at my age and after all that I went through, and what I went through to get him gone with a fair settlement. He needs to do this for HIMSELF and in spite of his loss. I did not like doing the Pick Me Dance and would not want him doing it either.

People can always get remarried…but the changes HAVE to be long term and solid…this means a cheater is willing to be ALONE with himself and face his demons and consistently win all of those battles, and the chumps have to be totally healed first. You have your “answer” to whether or not he has “changed” if he goes on to hook up with someone else after a bit of time goes by. A truly repentant man would NOT…he’d do his “time” and hope for reconciliation the same way that the Chump always did. He would weather the storm that he caused and be willing to wait for you to heal. YEARS…if you are still available.

The man who left CANNOT be the “same” man who returns.

BetterDays
BetterDays
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

I agree with Off The Crazy Train’s “keep up the good work.” Once of the things I learned the hard way after wreckonciliation is pay attention to actions, not words. I do think people can change and that true reconciliation is possible in some rare cases.

But real change takes time and if a cheater truly does change, there’s no guarantee the chump will want him or her back by then — the chump may have long moved on and gained a whole better life. Also a chump may never be able to trust a former cheater no matter how genuine the change, and that’s perfectly understandable after a betrayal(s).

That’s another reason I hate pop culture’s tendency to portray affairs as sexy and “just one of those things that happen.” When societal messages ignore the real pain and betrayal and devastation of infidelity, victims are further devalued. And dense cheaters find easy rationalizations for their shit behavior.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

Dango

“Finally feels a sence of accomplishment”.

Reading between the lines i interpreted this as justification. Cheater excuses are so varied and pitiful. It raised the question about what true remorse looks like. Hey I’m sorry i ended up dating three women and that one night stand has me hooked. I moved in with her and abandoned my life for the persuit of happiness. What excuse is justifiable? Look if your spouses biggest accomplishment is getting a job to stop MASTERBAITIng to porn there are few married normals who want to sign up for mentoring that.

Aren’t we talking about cake. Cheaters will need to update the old cheats handbook. It’s a creative addition since cheaters are so exposed.

Off the crazy train
Off the crazy train
8 years ago
Reply to  Dango

I’d say, keep up the good work!

Keep at it, but don’t have expectations of people you’ve wronged / make sure inside you’re not hiding a sense of entitlement because you’re doing the right things.

Just keep being a better person for you and good will come your way.

Off the crazy train
Off the crazy train
8 years ago

Dango, I thought you were the cheater! Apologies if I confused you.

I didn’t attempt reconciliation or have a remorseful cheater, so I can’t offer any thoughts drawn from my own reflections.

I guess I’d just say be careful and don’t be under any pressure to rush anything. If you have a genuine unicorn then I really wish you both the best of luck. Just make sure it’s working for you. Do what’s right for you. Don’t feel under any pressure. It’s not a box ticking exercise (he exhibits certain behaviours and you take him back). Good luck.

AllOutofKibble
AllOutofKibble
8 years ago

Wait just a damn minute!
There is nothing wrong with abandoning my cheater on a deserted island immediately!
If I could afford a deserted island it would have been a distinct possibility!
No Contact is essentially creating an Elba Island in your soul where the little Napoleon in your life has been exiled only to be dropped the occasional message in a bottle saying…..”send that check you’re required by law to provide.”

Finally realized
Finally realized
8 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

“an Elba Island in your soul where the little Napoleon in your life has been exiled only to be dropped the occasional message in a bottle saying…..”send that check you’re required by law to provide.””

This is the most marvelous mental image I have ever read anywhere, at any time!

It is absolutely poetic.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

We could just leave the cheaters on the island until they learned empathy and morals. with a few seed packs for self-sufficiency. Wait, they rarely learn, nor could they be self-sufficient. Fuck it, leave them there.

donna
donna
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Give them a send off by shooting them from a cannon from the ship. Air drop supplies including a blow up doll and plenty of sunscreen.

Anne
Anne
8 years ago
Reply to  AllOutofKibble

Please let me know if you ever can afford that deserted island. The news would report on mass disappearances of some really disreputable people. If I didn’t hate reality TV, I’d think there was another stupid show in the making.

JC
JC
8 years ago

Appropriate post today given my ongoing circumstances, CL. Thanks!

A couple of weeks ago, I had to end my first post-divorce long-term relationship. The reason: my girlfriend disagreed with me regarding boundaries with another man. No actual cheating took place, as far as I know. But she couldn’t grasp the basic concept that she should not spend time with him, given their past and given the possibility of developing attraction again.

We had several long talks and disagreements in which she repeatedly told me, “You’re very black and white in your thinking.”

There is nothing more frustrating than having to explain standard morality to someone and then be told that you’re being too rigid in that worldview. As CL says, it’s not that they don’t see…they just disagree.

I’m still working in my picker, it appears. And that’s fine. I’m comfortable with my “black-and-white” worldview. When you’re with me, I’m your #1, and there is no backup plan. If not, goodbye.

Free Vixen
Free Vixen
8 years ago
Reply to  JC

Painful as the break up may be, it is proof that your picker is working perfectly.

kb
kb
8 years ago
Reply to  JC

It reminds me of today’s Dear Abby, in which a married woman said that she loved her husband, but her boss was very tempting and had asked her for drinks and he was the top lawyer in the firm. Abby asked her to consider how she’d feel if it were her husband asking if it were okay to go out for drinks with some tempting woman, and also suggested that if things went south, the writer would perhaps lose her job or worse, and by the way, the married lawyer who asked her out has probably done that stuff before.

However the real issue in all of that was boundaries. Married people don’t go off for drinks with people to whom they’re attracted. They see the danger signs and start to put up Keep off the Grass signs and go build fences.

It’s not hard and it’s not rocket science.

sephage
sephage
8 years ago
Reply to  JC

Awesome! It’s never your job to teach remedial integrity or boundaries to another adult.

Cletus
Cletus
8 years ago
Reply to  JC

Good for you…recognizing a very big red flag!…and sticking to your boundaries!…my first long term post divorce relationship ended recently as well, it sucks, but still better than being with a cheater!

Anne
Anne
8 years ago
Reply to  JC

JC,

Good for you for sticking to your boundaries. Sounds like your picker is fine because you didn’t pick to stay with her.

Anne
Anne
8 years ago

I’ve been told more than once that my morals don’t leave any room for anything else. I have driven through the drive-through twice to return too much change given to me, I’ve returned to stores to pay for items that were on the bottom of my grocery cart and never paid for and I have had difficult conversations with people because they needed the truth. I make human mistakes and sincerely apologize for my behavior, attitude, or thoughtlessness. At 18 I took an oath to defend my country against all enemies. I later took another oath to serve and protect all citizens. They are sworn oaths, promises and I mean every word and will give my life in defense of others.

I also took a vow to love, honor, and cherish. It was also a promise but it was not broken my me. I am who I associate with. I will not associate with cheaters, liars, or those who do not have a sense of right and wrong or duty to their fellow human being. This is why I filed for divorce and friends he and I will never be.

Jeep
Jeep
8 years ago
Reply to  Anne

Anne, THANK YOU for your service! I am in awe of you! And I hope some day soon I can be as strong as you!

DeeL
DeeL
8 years ago
Reply to  Anne

Thank you Anne, for your services!! I’m with you in what you are saying. Vows, all sorts of vows, are very important and should not be taken lightly. If we can’t be taken at our word, then what is giving our word worth. To a cheater, any type of cheater, someone who steals and other offenses, none of the vows they took mean a thing. It is a weird world we live in. Our vow is our oath. What is so damn hard about knowing what that means. If you are not on board with the vows you are taking, then man or woman up, just say NO. It really is that easy.

uneffingbelievable
uneffingbelievable
8 years ago

“. . . That any amount of cheating”?????? Is she really trying to qualify TYPES of cheating?? For fucks sake – I’m so over this bullshit. BLACK AND WHITE. BLACK AND WHITE. BLACK AND WHITE. So there.

Michael
Michael
8 years ago

Moral ambiguity is a dangerous thing and is becoming more and more prevalent. It’s a fools sense of tolerance. Though there are grey areas somethings are always wrong. Objective morality is sometimes not so nice because accountability comes into play. You have to be ready to be a hard ass. And for the sake of decency, that’s what it takes.

“Making that leap is a way to discredit people who call out something as wrong.” – Love this.

I think the people who call this blog “black in white” is themselves that way and it’s why they see it like that. Indeed, CL does not advocate punishment for the cheater, but empowerment for the chump. If the cheater feels punished then it’s just them feeling the consequences.

Virago
Virago
8 years ago
Reply to  Michael

“Moral ambiguity is a dangerous thing and is becoming more and more prevalent. It’s a fools sense of tolerance.”

Yes to this, Michael. Erosive to society in general, but most perversely to adolescents and young adults.
It is an honour to have a forum to discuss this candidly. My hope is that CN speaks out vs this at every opportunity. I will be uncomfortable but betrayal was more discomforting.

Michael
Michael
8 years ago
Reply to  Virago

Critical thinking is the key. I’m appalled at the fact that it is not part of general education.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Michael

You’ll love this attempt a few years ago by one of the political parties to ban critical thinking in Texas schools (you can’t make this shit up. seriously):

http://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/

Michael
Michael
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

Not surprising. It’s not as easy to influence or control people who can think. Ever notice everything in society is geared towards you producing? But who are reaps the majority of our labor? Not us.

Tempest
Tempest
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

(not to pick on one political party; mostly to pick on Texas, which is warranted. The state is an alternative universe.)

Marked711
Marked711
8 years ago
Reply to  Tempest

So that explains why my ex bolted there to be with her AP before the divorce was anywhere near final. She’s an alien from that alternate universe. I hate Texas. I’ve heard of many ex’s ending up in Texas.

CalamityJane
CalamityJane
8 years ago
Reply to  Michael

“CL does not advocate punishment for the cheater, but empowerment for the chump. If the cheater feels punished then it’s just them feeling the consequences.”

Outstanding, Michael!

Kellia
Kellia
8 years ago

Shades of grey is where these cheaters love to live. That way they can operate covertly and twists things to their advantage. Certain things are black and white, like killing is wrong, cheating is wrong. How would they like it if they got f-ed over by someone, let’s see them sing that the situation is not black and white. They certainly won’t be claiming what was done to them is grey. Hypocrites.

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
8 years ago
Reply to  Kellia

“How would they like it if they got f-ed over by someone” – I agree that cheaters wouldn’t like it and if happened to them they would probably view cheating B & W. Hypocrites!

My cheating ex-wife was cheated on from her boyfriend years before she met me. I remember when we were dating she mentioned to me how painful his cheating affected her. Even though she felt that pain in the past, that didn’t stop her from cheating on me.

In the end, she just couldn’t keep her mask on anymore. She knew my view on marriage was forever. She took my commitment and used it against me assuming I would never leave her. She was dead wrong.

Cheating is B&W. Cheaters bring the gray because they are cruel, selfish, entitled, lacking of impulse control and they have the ability to suppress empathy to chumps and their kids. Gray is just so ugly.

Sasanka
Sasanka
8 years ago

Yes to that!
My abuser got screwed over in a business deal a few times, and I just sat beside him dumbfounded listening about how the other guy is a ‘dishonest bastard’, ‘he took advantage of me, how could he cheat like this’, ‘this is so unjust” and get this ‘The one thing I hate the most is injustice!!” I almost burst out laughing, and I should have. And final one that left me speechless (I never imagined this empty, shallow, conscienceless ice pick even had this kind of vocabulary, when he was the victim: “What this guy did to me amounts to emotional rape!!!’ U-n-b-e-l-i-e-v-a-b-l-e!
They live in two alternate universes. How does he perfectly understand breaches of trust, basic expectation of integrity, honoring agreements …no confusion at all…when it relates to him!!! But turns around to do the very same thing to me, cruel and open about it, and disagrees!
Well, ‘It’s not that they don’t see, it’s that they disagree!” as George Simon says. I will never be able to truly wrap my head around it but I’m learning to somehow accept this as reality in some people, and to steer clear.

Fifi
Fifi
8 years ago

My ex-husband did the same, SureChumpedAlot. Sad stories about how his first wife cheated on him with a friend, so the last thing I ever expected was for him to turn around and do the same thing to me. Now that I know him better, I’m not sure that sad story is even true. Maybe he was the cheater, not his first wife.

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
8 years ago
Reply to  Fifi

Fifi, It is possible he was the cheater and not his first wife – or – he has always been a cruel, selfish, entitled cheater and his first ex-wife just beat him to the punch. Either way his mask came off and exposed his true-self. Good riddance for you! Wish you the best.

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago

I said that exact same thing to asswipe how would you like what you did to me done to you?He told me to stop being stupid and playing the victim. Just forgive and forget all is good. Seriously?! I am a victim. Of him! Easy to say when your on the inside looking out from lala land just trying to justify himself and his actions. Asshole! He would have gone insane and I most likely would have ended up in the hospital. Or worse. People break up all the time no big deal so what? If it had been open and honest I would still have been devastated but at least it would have been honest with no cheating involved but no some people just suck and they find others who suck to cheat with them. Pod people are lower than sub human may they all get the life they so justly deserve. But they want to be great friends with me one big happy family. I spit my tequila and grapefruit out thru my nose cracking up at that one. Ive never met that bitch and never intend too. If for some reason all of us have to be in the same room it better be a big damn room. Im having a pretty good time ignoring him and being indifferent. He hates it. What makes him think id ever pay attention to her. Hey everyone this is the whore the ex cheated with and left me for! Her name is whore juice! Or something. On with the party! Would I? Will I dare? Damn right I would. And he knows it. If its something concerning my kids I would never ruin their special day but I would ignor totally the ex and his whore. My kids know this. Unlike their asshole sperm donor they respect my wishes and dont want me to be friends with pod people. Unlike the pod dad they will let me be me.

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
8 years ago
Reply to  kar marie

Hiya Kar, Your ex really is an asswipe. My gosh he’s like a walking Jerry Springer episode. Someone really needs to knock his dick in the dirt!

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago

Yep blow up a lifetime spent trying to have a comfortable retirement hopefully to ruin everything and destroy it. He really is a big time asswipe. He will work paying off his huge bad choice debts till the day he drops dead. Good! Someone elses problem now. Didnt think aboutone fucking thing other than his dick and ego. Fuck him!

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago

From the day I met asswipe his world was always black and white never changed til the whore. I am bkack and white for things such as traci said but I have always seen the gray places and things. Some things are just plain wrong and deserve just punishment. Lopping peoples hands off fir stealing bread cause they are poor and hungry no. They need help. Stealing peoples retirenent accts or raping children?… off with their …. uh excuse me anger ramped down now. Cheating while a desert island would be great cheaters would just reek havoc there too. Im watching asswipe suffer the consequences of his actions now. Heehee! Whore threw him out yet again for not bending to her will and refuses to take him back til he does what she says. Haha! Whose the boss bow bitch?! Me I move away kniwing I did not cause it his madness. I kept my promises and my vows to the end. I made those promises not only to him but myself. I kept them. I will on to a better life where I am only accountable to me. He has a whore who wont give him a moments peae or trust him in any way. She was snooping before she threw him out. Hes sinking deeper and deeper in debt and the ho who makes good money spends every penny she gets her hands on. Wait til she gets a hold of his money she will put him in the poorhouse bankruptcy and bad credit just like she did to her last two husbands. I am a nice goid kind person who tried her damnest the last few years we were together to get thru to his ego stubborn mind but he stopped listening and nurturing everything but that fucking business! He wouldnt even have it if I hadnt made my needs small and supported him anyway I could. Now I dont care fuck him fuck her and everyone like them. Thank the heavens for all you guys. You saved me!!!!

UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
UnsinkableMollyXinAlabama
8 years ago
Reply to  kar marie

“Who’s the boss now bitch?!” LMAO @kar marie !!!! That’s awesome!!!

SureChumpedAlot
SureChumpedAlot
8 years ago
Reply to  kar marie

Love this kar marie – “Who’s the boss now bitch?!” Hilarious!

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago

Thank you. I do have my moments. And I may add red berets for ass kicking taking names and finger pointing. My inner tigress sees red on cheaters.

kar marie
kar marie
8 years ago

Great post today! Thanks!

Lastinline
Lastinline
8 years ago

Cheaters and their defenders ALWAYS have some lame reason and excuse for it.

Want to search your dirty soul for some pseudo excuse for cheating? See Dr. Phil. Want to defend a cheater? Do it over drinks with the cheater. The victims have had enough of hearing about what’s wrong with us and all the reasons why WE should have compassion for THEM. Spare us the grey and hope it helps at the STD clinic and make sure you see all 50 shades of it when we do all that reacting you hate.