Did Anyone Get Pregnant During the Affair?

pregnant affair

In your chump story, did anyone get pregnant during the affair? Did you have to navigate the discovery of an affair partner’s child, a la Dave Grohl?

Discussing how pregnancy intersects with infidelity is today’s Friday Challenge — and also the topic of an upcoming podcast.

I asked this question over on social media and I’ve heard from people who discovered they were products of an affair, had Other Women have pregnancy scares to win the pick me dance, and discovered their partner’s secret child(ren) years after the fact.

All to say, cheating can reverberate through generations.

Speaking of affairs and getting pregnant, this was the topic of a recent BBC Sounds broadcast with Gordon Smart. Our very own Sarah Gorrell was a panelist and did an absolutely brilliant job discussing the chump point of view. Also on the panel was a woman, Jennifer, who learned later in life, as her mother was dying, that she was the product of an affair. That lead to a 20-year long pick me dance for her bio-dad’s love and attention, and the pain of knowing that her existence hurt his family. What an unfair burden to carry. (She eventually gave up the pick me dance.)

There’s also a therapist on the panel who offers completely nonsensical tangents on dopamine and communication styles.

Anyway, have a listen! Sarah comes in at the 33:00 minute mark.

My pregnant affair story is that in one of my early bizarre calls from the Other Woman (the primary one…. there were others), she did this whole dramatic OMG I’m pregnant scare story. Then I found out later… she was 47… and this was total bullshit.

And THEN I discovered, much later, after the divorce, that the OW did most likely have a child with my FW, she just pawned the dude off on another guy. The kid was in his early 20s by then and a dead ringer for the ex. Poor kid.

So, CN, tell me your stories and TGIF!

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Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

My FW demanded a paternity test early on and I was offended and nonplussed, it was outlandish and random and insulting. There was no basis for the accusations. I chalked it up at the time as just another of his wild smears in an unhinged campaign. But gradually, since then, thanks to his behavior, I’ve learned more and more about the phenomenon of projection: everything he accused ME of, HE had done. Only a few weeks ago did the penny drop and I suddenly realized, OMG, perhaps this is projection too, and he has a child somewhere out there!! Perhaps that’s where these seemingly wild accusations originate…!

Last edited 1 year ago by Chumpty Dumpty
Matt in Middletown
Matt in Middletown
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

For me it was somewhat reversed.
She accused me of cheating, then got pregnant.
Somehow.
She hadn’t touched me in 6 months.
Surprise, 3 months pregnant.
So I tell her that before I put my name on any child she gave birth to there would be a paternity test, if the kid is mine great.
If not, she’d best look for the father.
I also informed her that skin color would be a dead giveaway.

Money vanished and the oh so religious cheater magically “miscarries”, it was such a botched “miscarriage” that she bled heavily for over a week, and wasn’t ever able to get pregnant again.
Expensive “miscarriage” too, near $800 minimum magically vanished, then she had medical bills afterwards, I wasn’t allowed to see them.

So she, being SO Religious ™®©, aborted the baby and hid it from me.
She never learned anything from the experience.

Marco
Marco
1 year ago

The worst marital advice come from clergy and family. You must stay with poor muffin because it’s gods will. 😂🤣

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

Matt, I’m sorry that happened to you. Why was there even any discussion of paternity, if you and she hadn’t had sex in 6 months, but she was three months pregnant? Doesn’t get much more cut and dried than that.

Matt in Middletown
Matt in Middletown
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

I know it doesn’t get any more cut and dried than that, but as is typical of people like her everyone we knew ate up everything she said as if it were 100% fact even when I could prove it was complete fantasy.
Nothing I ever said or did mattered.
So after I said there’d be a paternity test she flipped out at first and everyone told me that I was being “abusive” for even considering it.
That was when I mentioned skin color to my ex and she decided to secretly “medically miscarry”.
Somewhat secondary to all of this she was going to a therapist and hanging out with my brother’s ex wife.
The therapist was telling her that she deserved to be happy and empowered, guess how she was supposed to go about doing it.
By not having anything to do with her husband for awhile as somehow sex with your own husband is “immoral and disgusting”.
The ex sister in law had a brainchild idea of “hey, let’s both get pregnant by someone else and then divorce our husbands to get child support for kids that aren’t theirs. It’ll be funny.”
I had been telling my ex that I knew what was going on, she pretended that I didn’t know.
Then came the day mentioned where it finally sunk in for her.

Guess how everyone we knew reacted to her “miscarriage”.

Marco
Marco
1 year ago

Lying, cheating, church hypocrites stick together.

hush
hush
1 year ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Dave Grohl recently falsely accused his wife, Jordyn, of an inappropriate attraction to her tennis instructor… while Dave was off impregnating a side chick.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  hush

HOW do these people’s brains work, exactly??! Like, what is the thought process??

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

Lol, what thought process? My guess is the behavior is a product of willful blindness to and denial of one’s own less than stellar traits, surgically selective forgetting, rewriting of events, whitewashing of motives and thoughtlessness. Everyone does it to some degree though usually over very minor things (erm, no one noticed I forgot to brush my teeth and my breath smelled like eggs in the carpool!). But some just take it further and keep expanding the selective “blind spots” to their own character to cover worse and worse deeds. The Talented Mr. Ripley is the perfect spokesman for all back-stabbing sociopaths:

“Well, whatever you do, however terrible, however hurtful, it all makes sense, doesn’t it In your head? You never meet anybody who thinks they’re a bad person… Don’t you just take the past and put it in a room in the basement and lock the door and never go in there? That’s what I do.”

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Riiight? Yikes

LookingForwardsToTuesday
LookingForwardsToTuesday
1 year ago

Ex-Mrs LFTT is the product of her late father’s affair. He coerced his wife (my MIL who was then pregnant with my SIL) into adopting her after she was born. He never showed an ounce of contrition for what he did, and would go berserk if anyone dared highlight the contradiction between his “fine upstanding member of society” public persona and his private actions. 

I do not judge my Ex-MIL for not kicking him to the kerb when she found out, as I know how difficult it would have been for her to divorce him and gain a fair settlement in the late 60’s. The fact that he went so far as to threaten to destroy her career and take away the child she was carrying if she tried shows just what he was like. 

Sadly – for the kids and I – it turned out that Ex-Mrs LFTT was very much like her father. Both in terms of her propensity for cheating, and her behaviours when she got found out. 

The damaged caused by cheating all too easily spans multiple generations.

LFTT

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago

“The damaged caused by cheating all too easily spans multiple generations.” So true. In my case, the damage is that there will be no more generations. I chose not to marry or have children, in large part because of the experience of witnessing the collapse of my parents’ marriage.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

Some people learn all the wrong lessons from abusive childhoods– that life is all dog-eat-dog and it’s better to kill than be killed, that victims always lose and bullies always win so, to survive, one must show bullies hysterical loyalty or else. And what better way to prove obedience and loyalty towards an abuser than though emulation of the abuse as well as the abuser’s contempt for the victim parent and, for that matter, any genuine victim they encounter who dares to resist or speak out?

It sounds like your ex might have been first ambivilently drawn to you because you bore some resemblance to her mother character-wise (simply in terms of being a non-abuser, i.e., safe) as if, for a time, she was trying to choose the high road and the path of light rather than darkness. Maybe she thought that would fix her. But, in her twisted sense of reality, it may seem inevitable that someone has to be the scapegoat and, since she didn’t want it to be her, she felt compelled to embody her father which also made her emulate her father’s contempt and blame towards her mother.

I’ll bet she was shocked to the core when her “reenactment” of daddy’s nastiness didn’t work out precisely the way she’d been programmed to believe it would because, in your case, the bully didn’t win, the victim didn’t stay down or accept the blame. What anarchy! The “lesson” you “taught” her (without trying) probably won’t displace the first lesson she learned in life because by now she’s fully inculcated and invested in “team bad guy.” She can only keep throwing good money after bad to avoid facing the full awfulness of what she’s done. But your kids will never unlearn your lesson– which is that victims win and perpetrators are hoisted on their own petards. Basically you stopped the generational buck.

Again I’ll qualify that I’m not arguing for sad sausage sympathy for abusers. I don’t call people like your ex “survivors” in the true emotional sense and I don’t have sympathy for adult abusers no matter how tragic their backgrounds were. I only sympathize with the terrorized children they once were and try to understand the transition to abuser either to protect future kids from going through the same or to predict what abusers will do next. It may seem “humanizing” to guess that many abusers are motivated by fear but “humanizing motives” doesn’t necessarily warm my heart or make me pull punches. It’s just data.

For instance, I read somewhere that some people emerge from childhood abuse with a sense that their former abuser is so omniscient that they will fear them beyond the grave and continue to “grovel for amnesty” from that specter by either defending the abuser and covering up for their crimes and/or compulsively reenacting abuse scenarios from childhood. Some former victims may seem fully conscious that abuse by a childhood role model was terrible and destructive and they may even rail against it but that doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t reenact it to the hilt.

Most theories on reenactment compulsion depict this as a way that people sort of unconsciously “rerun” scenarios from their childhoods in the hopes they’ll somehow work out differently. That may be true in the case of people who, say, are always pursuing unavailable partners as a (mostly self-defeating) way to resolve rejection by a parent. Personally I think that’s been over-applied and overgeneralized to the point of being quite often victim blaming since many domestic abuse victims may not have initially perceived that a partner was “unavailable” due to the special bag of deceptive tricks that a lot of abusers have (mirroring, love-bombing, appearing vulnerable and dependent, etc.) and the talent they have for feigning good character for sometimes long periods of time. Then by the time many victims realize the prank, they’re often wrapped up in a barbed wire spider’s web of coercion and control, threats of punishment and years of enmeshed investment, etc. like your exMIL. It’s so easy to get entrapped in abuse and so difficult to get out.

Related to the omniscient abuser idea, I’ve started to wonder if there’s another subconscious motive involved with reenactment when formerly abused kids develop into adult abusers– that repeatedly committing betrayal and cruelty becomes a kind of sacrificial rite to quell a sense of chronic fear and anxiety that the ghosts of abusers past will come back from the grave and punish them, sort of like “See, daddy (or Mommy or Uncle Ernie, etc.), I’m just like you! I designate and punish scapegoats just like you did! And I hate them and blameshift on them just like you did! Please don’t annihilate me!”

That psycho state of mind may not be detectable to victims at first because– tada– part of reenacting abuser role model behaviors may be the seduction and laying the trap. Plus the dark trajectory might be something that ramps up over time as the abuser forms greater dependency on and attachment to victims which, due to their horror show upbringings, might theoretically trigger an equal and opposite backlash of distrust and paranoia. Because dog-eat-dog, kill-or-be-killed and somebody’s got to be the victim, etc.

Basically feelings of vulnerability or whatever passes for “love” for these types will always conversely trigger hate and fear and that Manchurian candidate programming to play the abuser role will kick in, including emulation of contempt and blame towards the target. It might explain why abusers always seem convinced (and consequently convincing to many bystanders) that they were merely “defending” themselves. In their messed up minds, they probably believe it but that’s precisely what makes them so dangerous.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago

I think this is absolutely true – cheating affects generations especially if affair children are born. It can’t be covered up or watered down, it’s not only a fundamental betrayal but one that is not limited by time as the betrayed spouse who now has an affair child to deal with – or not – has a daily shit sandwich on the menu.

Slowbutsure
Slowbutsure
1 year ago

Oh so triggering. The Ow got pregnant when my oldest was 6 months old after I had experienced 5 miscarriages. I had been Fw for 11 years then since I was 18. The last loss being born alive at 26.5 weeks and living for a week. I pick me danced my way and realised I was pregnant again when I had finally had enough of the affair continuing. He never told Ow I was pregnant, infact she found out the day of my delivery when her friend who’s a nurse at the facility saw FW there and had come into my room to confirm. Fw had to beat the friend to the news as I later found out from OW herself when she was ‘hurt’. Any 4years later Fw came to me yesterday to tell me he’s finally fallen In Love with her and pointed out all my inadequacies as a woman when we were together but that he loves me just not I. Love with me. Fw treats my kids poorly , skips their birthdays and dedications simply because his family has stood firmly behind me. He goes all out for OW son whose paternity he never confirmed . Just said if he finds he isn’t his he’ll just step up and be his dad anyway. He added that he needs me to show OW some grace and not make her life difficult. They are finally together now. But here he was at my apartment at 10p.m same day yesterday after the declaration pretending to have finally come for his documents. He wanted sex with me . The nerve. Oh and that he’s king of my castle and that I ought to know I’m his forever . Left the room and he snooped on my phone and saw my text calling him an alcoholic, peddler, school dropout and weed junkie. All true btw and he lost it . It was the final straw that made him finally agree to pay me child support and never come back to my house. A win. So much for ‘ I truly love her deeply, yes you do becaus she still lives with her mum at 28 and mum foots all the bills. Parting shot from him was ” I’m going to be the best version of myself for her” and oh he’s promised her mum this too. He’ll stop peddling drugs , her mum doesn’t even know this. ( started this when he was having the affair) and she is elated. My kids have been dumped and her & her kid have won. Well good riddance and good luck to that lot.

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Slowbutsure

No. Absolutely no “grace.” And if it’s your apartment, never let him in. He can wait outside a closed, locked door while you get whatever for him.

Slowbutsure
Slowbutsure
1 year ago

He just doesn’t let up and restraining orders in my country are an absolute joke. He’s just now telling my family how I am his confidant. This is barely 3 days after his love declaration for OW and barely a week after he skipped my youngest birthday. I’m now gathering my male relatives to pay him a visit . He’s now destabilising me

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Slowbutsure

“her and her kid have won” (…an epic, scary turd). I wish you and your children increasing joy and success now that you’re all turd-free.

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
1 year ago

My daughter wants to take a 23 and Me test.

Knowing what we do about Traitor Ex/Dad, there could very well be other children out there, giving 23 and Me a whole new meaning.

My greatest sympathy is for all the children that get caught in the infidelity crossfire. It’s the most difficult and cruel loyalty issue that they are saddled with and forced to navigate.

😪

Daughterofachump
Daughterofachump
1 year ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of these days, a half sibling fathered by my dad turns up. Sadly, if asked what he was like, I’ll have very few good things to tell.

kokichi
kokichi
1 year ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

Ancestry.com is part of how I figured out that my Jesus Cheater was the result of an affair. No one ever told him, but his brother later confirmed it. Image living your entire life as a lie. JC firmly believes that the man who gave JC his surname is his biological father and is upset that his parents divorce resulted in his “bio dad” moving away. I’m so glad that the kids and I got away from all of that family’s sickness!

Luziana
Luziana
1 year ago

A lot of you are familiar with my story I like to call The Sluterus and Her Instant Pot Uterus.

i got lucky because I genuinely went full contact didn’t even look at Social and didn’t know they had a baby until after the quickie dissolution. My 13 year old stepdaughter was asked to keep it Secret as well.

We didn’t have kids or heavily mingled assets. I thank the Lord every day that I didn’t know because the options would have been the route Grohl’s wife is on or additional pain that while I was going through HPV treatment and menopause they were building their new family off the broken back of mine.

It’s too long of a saga for the Podcast. Others would be better. Let it be Podcast I STILL have zero regrets for paying the Toothless Paralegal Cookie Critic his gift back in exchange for never contacting me again.

So many sagas!!

Luziana
Luziana
1 year ago
Reply to  Luziana

And yes, Cold Slab O’Meat gave me the HPV.

kokichi
kokichi
1 year ago

My Jesus Cheater has two children with his AP. Our kids are DS21 and DD19. The AP is 31. Jesus Cheater and AP’s kids are S7 and D5 years old. Jesus Cheater has been shocked that our children want nothing to do with him.

kokichi
kokichi
1 year ago
Reply to  kokichi

I feel like it adds an additional layer of discard as well. Not only did Jesus Cheater need to replace me, he needed to replace all of us. He is currently rewriting history about how I knew all along, that I was a miserable person to be married to, and that he didn’t meet her until 2016, but I have wire transfers that he sent her in 2014. It is all so sick and twisted. After I confronted the JC, he acted like we were all going to become some type of weird blended family and he was shocked that I didn’t want to remain in his sick harem. (Our two day trial was described as “salacious” by my family lawyer.)

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  kokichi

He’s gonna be even more shocked when he meets Jesus and find out what he thinks. Not the pushover they like to present him as.

kokichi
kokichi
1 year ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Thanks, we agree. Jesus Cheater loves to preach grace and forgiveness. It’s an added layer of mind blender.

Beawolf
Beawolf
1 year ago

I found out after the divorce that he had a child with a women who was married at the time, that she had pawned off as her husband’s child. This was before I met ex husband. One of my questions to all my boyfriends was do you have anything I have to raise or cure. Of course he said no, but alas 30 years later, I find out my daughter has a 1/2 brother. I wrote Tracy about it and took her sound advice. When I saw the picture of the son, he was a dead ringer for his father. He had taken a DNA test and found out the man who raised him was not his biological dad. The man who raised him had passed and mom confessed to the affair. His DNA matched to my niece and she called me to let me know. I told my daughter. The son has never contacted either one of us. I still don’t know if ex knows if we know.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
1 year ago

Use of “I”: 24 times
Use of me/my/mine: 8 times
Regret expressed for hurting husband and AP’s wife: 0

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

Wait, I’m missing something. What was the original cheater post?

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
1 year ago

Sorry, HOAC, I was trying to respond to you. But you didn’t miss much in missing the sad OW tale of woe.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
1 year ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

Interesting..original cheater post has disappeared. That took some chutzpah.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

Some OW ho yapping on about getting pregnant from her AP. She was married and so was he. But she just looked at him and knew he was too sparky to pass up and she was going to get a blue-eyed baby boy out of it. Which she did. She spoke about what a mistake it was for her but then justified it because she was bored at work, bored in her marriage, unfulfilled in her choice of nail polish, her martinis were always shaken and she preferred stirred, people didn’t acknowledge her greatness, her glassware didn’t shine, her car got a flat. Blah fucking blah me me me…you know the drill. No mention of the pain she caused her husband, AP’s wife, or the bastardry she inflicted on said blue-eyed baby boy.

They try to sound like they have a human soul, but sometimes you can see right through the empty space where it should be.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

Haha, thanks for the synopsis. Looks like someone took a wrong turn on their way to one of those whiney-bitchy-braggy OW subreddit and landed here by accident.

Bet she regrets it but honestly, the reactions APs and cheaters who wander onto this forum get don’t even come close to the hysterical flaming anyone representing the “chump perspective” receives if they traipse into an AP echo chamber. I briefly got a kick out of watching the occasional interloper throw a wrench into those Reddit OW hubs by bringing up themes OWs can never manage to rationalize away like, say, STD risks, enabling “rape by deception,” dissipation of marital assets and traumatized kids’ college funds being squandered on Schmoopie bistro grub, gifts, drinking and shopping binges, etc. The hysteria and nasty backlash that typically ensued was an entertaining mask-drop compared to the usual smug tone of those threads in which OWs would trade deception tactics or chat in contemptuous, ho-hum tones about the laughable reactions to chumped spouses.

For as long as I could stomach lurking on those threads (less than a week), I was really struck by the creepy contrast between this ho-hum, office break room typical tone of those discussions against the real life trauma, abuse, embezzlement of and damage to innocent chumps and children these APs were participating in.

I could imagine if these were office workers in some toxic company that, say, manufactured environmentally disastrous chemicals or made war drones complaining about mundane work conditions and gossiping over idiotic office politics while being ever so careful not to betray the tiniest hint of resentment towards their creepy management (i.e., their married paramours, who are never to blame or responsible for anything and have sad sausage excuses for every crappy thing they do) lest they get “fired.” And, if they even acknowledged victims, making dismissive jokes about those silly, boring people who keep whining about, tsk, their kids getting cancer from deadly toxic spills or having their wedding parties blown up by misfired missiles.

Clearly there’s a big difference in scale between home-wrecking and poisoning and bombing entire cultures. But the way the bland chat was thrown into ugly relief when placed in its actual context still reminded me of the “banality of evil” concept. That set off one of my usual tangents of wondering how it all connects and if the shitty age of corporate oligopoly we’re in is making people more prone to pathologically compartmentalize their ethics in every regard in order to avoid looking at what they’re participating in to make a living as they serve as functionaries to global destruction.

I get carried away in my analogies but, if you think about it, it’s really the same mentality.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
1 year ago

Lord, I had no idea there were reddit groups for bragging OW side pieces.

My STBX’s therapist was always talking about cheater’s toxic shame as if it was worse than plutonium but as for me, I think my FW could have benefitted from more shame, or perhaps ANY shame. And so could the AP who posted about the mistake of affair babies, but then bleated out a litany of the world’s lamest excuses to justify her actions.

I get your thoughts on corporate evil and how accommodating it may compartmentalizes the soul, but some people. like my STBX, are just born that way. He’s been diagnosed with NPD and anti-social personality disorder, and he will never, ever, have any empathy or remorse. Scary, yes?

The story about the French woman whose husband arranged men to rape his unconscious wife is stuck in my soul. I’m not even able to think much about it yet. Because I think these disordered men are all like this: it is just a matter of degree. And they can never really understand that they’ve done as a wrong or immoral thing, because they’ve never acknowledged other people as human beings. There be monsters here.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

Yes, amazing to say but those OW subreddits did exist. The ones I saw didn’t last long but I haven’t been on Reddit for awhile and maybe new ones cropped up. I also saw gaggles of OWs or OW apologists who’d brigade feminist subreddits, typically railing about how putting any blame on sidechicks is “misogynist” lol. It was fun watching those arguments get shot down but it was kind of creepy how the poacher types seem to form coalitions and create their own culture. Guilt is ugly I guess and takes a lot of energy and constant affirmation to stuff down.

Speaking of which, if your ex had enough executive functioning to avoid consequences, elaborately deceive or blameshift to get you off his scent or terrorize you into paralysis, then he’s not mentally ill but probably more criminally disordered. At least according to the best clinical arguments I’ve read, criminal disorders are acquired and learned, not genetic.

In any case, neurogeneticists have never pinpointed a single “crime gene” or “low empathy gene” despite the occasional headline or book proclaiming some (always unreplicable) finding and despite trying to hunt these elusive genes down like Wile E. Coyote for more than a century. Furthermore, the pursuit of this is mostly for horrible and highly monetized reasons. Like in service of some “Minority Report” law enforcement or antiterrorist scheme or pharma schemes to “prophylactically” and forcibly medicate whole “at risk” populations (naturally marginalized an poor people and naturally with on-patent blockbuster drugs paid for with– tada– tax dollars), all of which inevitably have racialized underpinnings. Another obvious motive behind the crime gene obsession is for various war profiteers to “manufacture public consent” for the collateral of violent western hegemony on the theory that the civilians– especially children– the west drones to oblivion were “born terrorists” anyway so no biggie. Of course these aims are never openly touted and studies like this are always framed within kinder-gentler, touchy-feely motives (like alleviating “genetically inherited trauma”!). But any careful follow-the-money search of relevant study funding or review of citations always uncovers all sorts of bad actors, blatantly racist supporting research and weaponized agendas behind the curtain.

Mostly I get impatient with the weaponized genetic clusterfuck because it tends to shift attention away from more interesting and useful findings and evidence that could encourage the channeling of resources towards protecting children from the things that create adult monsters and help people identify abusers before they get entrapped or preempt escalation and more safely escape. For instance, the idea that abusers, though they typically have a capacity for empathy, instead manage to make it highly selective or tamp it down through all sorts of elaborate mental tricks, means signs of this are observable. One of the theoretical “tricks” is something called “neutralization”– a learned thinking process (probably passed from generation to generation starting from the cradle) observed in a wide range of serial offenders (from college exam cheats to domestic batterers to serial killers) that involves things like denying or justifying the offense, negating the victim, blaming the victim, condemning the condemners, etc. It can become so rote that it’s barely conscious but people who know what to look for might see flashes of it in time to protect themselves.

A researcher who studied batterers in prison settings for twenty years also found that most abusers avidly but sometimes stealthily collect alibis and “palliative comparisons” from the culture which justify or even applaud their criminal conduct as part of the “neutralization” process. People might start to pick up clues of this from the kinds of films people prefer or books, articles or podcasts they consume, the celebrities or presenters they follow, etc.

In other words, a giveaway could be all the ways in which these abusers channel energy into “neutralizing” guilt or a sense of negative stigma for their behavior to suffocate any remaining affective empathy and leave only the cognitive empathy that helps to manipulate prey and the perceptions of bystanders. In any event, all that energy expenditure is going to come out of other types of mental functions and one clue may simply be that someone seems oddly spaced out most of the time or is a fuckup or particularly triggery and defensive when hearing anything that contradicts their constant self-exculpation.

At the very least the acquired view of abuser mentality argues that many abusers are so hyperfocused on entrapping victims, pour so much mental energy into quelling any internal obstacle against this goal (like shame, empathy) and engage in such elaborate mental processes to these ends that even abusers of middling intelligence or those who are stupid in other aspects of their lives have an almost genius ability to coerce and control. So, rather than victims being viewed as self-defeating for not being able to easily escape, it starts to seem like a miracle that any get out alive.

Also if abusers actually do have the capacity for empathy but just a selective form of it, it explains why so many normal people get sucked in. The empathy is real enough but unfortunately was equipped with an “off switch.” Once that switch goes fully off regarding a particular victim because the predator has internally rehearsed all the ways that the victim is not deserving of human status, victims may have the impression that there could never have been empathy there to begin with because what they see are just the empty shark eyes of a monster. That impression could seem to argue that that coldness was always there to be seen– meaning the victim was somehow being foolhardy or masochistic for ignoring it. But the snuffing of empathy might and achieving “antisocial” status have been a process that took time and practice, meaning there was little initial “warning vibe.” Plus that compassion may “turn back on” quite suddenly on a whim, simply because the abuser has not yet mentally dehumanized a particular target (give ’em time).

Basically the acquired view contradicts a lot of traditional victim-blaming theories. I also think the acquired view, aside from showing the real scale of the generational and cultural roots of abuse and how this is the training grounds for other types of criminality, just makes great art. If you get a chance, watch the documentary on the making of The Sopranos series. The creator of it, David Chase, and several of the series writers wax brilliant and staggeringly candid at times about the role of family violence and dysfunction in creating adult monsters, sometimes drawing from their own dysfunctional upbringings and the secrets they uncovered in their own families by accident (because secrets are kept secret and we don’t always learn of them). All of this got poured into the series which, to me, sometimes reached the level of modern Shakespeare. The sense is that these writers were passionately trying to inoculate the public from being charmed by or feeling sympathy for the charismatic devils among us by exposing all the roots and guts of it. Like “Yeah these freaks genuinely suffer, genuinely love, genuinely feel empathy for ducks and horsies. But it doesn’t matter because they’ll still cut your throat like peeling a potato.”

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
1 year ago

Hi Hell of a Chump:

I have to tell you that sometimes I wonder if you are a divine messenger, because you frequently speak to things I am in the process of figuring out, and so do so with such clarity that a light shines on the topic of my pondering and helps me to see it so much better.

My STBX has the same profile as Chris Watts, and it has only been recently that I realized just how dangerous and completely devoid of empathy he is. Now I get it and fear for my life. It has been an agonizingly slow process to go from the shock that he is a “sex addict” to realizing he is a pathological liar and possible narcissist, to him being diagnosed with NPD and psychopathy/sociopathy. If I survive it I will be quite surprised.

This is why I tell other chumps that Dday is the happiest day you will ever have with your FW for the rest of your life, because you don’t yet know the extent of their depravity and betrayal and still have a thimble full of hope.

These men show callous disregard for human life. That French man who arranged for men to rape his unconscious wife is different only by degree from my husband, who also likes to hurt me, and is held back only by his love of image and fear of being caught.

But in the meantime, I wanted to thank you sincerely for your kindness and explication. It helps me (and undoubtedly other readers) more than you will ever know.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

Thank you for your kind words.

Please take any measure to protect yourself because your ex sounds genuinely dangerous even if he hasn’t yet “fulfilled” that potential and even if others around him haven’t caught on and think defensive measures on your part would be unnecessary, “silly” or excessive.

They don’t know what you know. The process you describe of gradually discovering layer upon layer of deeper darkness in your ex reminds me of the chilling short story Uncle Silas by Victorian novelist Joseph Sheridan LeFanu which is included in a collection titled “Voices of Ireland.”

When I read it I thought it was the most accurate literary description ever written of the crippling, paralyzing sensation of only being able to sense but not verify the existence of evil in others to the point that, when that evil finally shows its true face, it’s nearly a relief compared to the torment of uncertainty. Of course that relief might be very short lived for about 40% of domestic violence murder victims whose first and only glimpse of the true violent potential of their partners was the moment before they died.

The story also clarified a perception I was developing that just the capacity for evil in another person, even if it hasn’t yet fully manifested, is something that can often be felt and, in itself, begins to poison, sicken and weaken those in proximity to it. I thought the latter was something most bystanders and half baked helping professionals were completely missing when they pathologized victims who “don’t leave” or didn’t leave sooner. It’s like asking why people who fall into methane pits collapse and don’t, tsk, just do the sensible thing and climb out because onlookers can’t actually see the deadly gas.

Then, as I mentioned before, it occurred to me more recently that, if evil is learned and acquired, the process of becoming the embodiment of it is incremental. I loved the movie The Player because Altman really seemed to understand this. In other words, the “gas” of potential violence and danger in people is something that can grow and increase over time and with practice, maybe starting as a barely palpable occasional fart. By the time that potentiality rises to a sickening level or lethal, all onlookers may see is an obviously spooky creep on a perp walk. They tell themselves that the victim must have seen this all along as well but, instead of running away, was “drawn to danger.”

Come to think of it, not all perpetrators even develop that palpable “smell” even when they “fully manifest.” Chris Watts never did look like what he actually was even when caught. He just seemed like a gormless, somewhat spaced out regular dude. It was even that “hur-dur” gormlessness that led some spectators to assume he was just hen-pecked and that Shanann must have “driven him to it” which makes that spacey guise even more diabolical. Never mind if a few victims of narcissistic abuse on Reddit have identified space cadet behavior as a subtle red flag of personality disorder, it’s not on any official clinical list. In the documentary on the murders, I think the only glimpse that something was “off” about him was so faint that it’s a wonder a neighbor even noticed it because many professional profilers might not have. So how would Shanann have ever guessed until it was too late? If this is what your ex vibes like, how would you have guessed?

I’m glad some of the stuff I’m writing about rings bells because that’s how I felt when reading about these theories or taking part in discussions where groups of survivors took the ideas further and added insights.

I had to laugh at the idea that any of this mental processing on the grim subject of abuse is divine because it doesn’t seem heavenly to most onlookers! But it honestly feels like there’s a kind of divinity to the collective process by which people get together and share their hellish experiences, share ideas and information that put those experiences into perspective and generate new ways to frame these traumas that help others. It often happens in those settings that people think the same improbable things– sometimes very elaborate, nuanced, multilayered things– at the same time. And a lot of bs falls away when people are struggling to survive.

I wasn’t raised religious but it almost feels like a mystical experience. Furthermore, the things discussed, processed and digested don’t merely seem relevant to surviving dire straights but like universal truths about reality and the human condition that apply to everything and may even be the secret to basic happiness. Evan Stark would often say how “brilliant” survivors are for doing all the deeply misunderstood things they do to survive and then the way they process after the fact. He said this with genuine wonder and I get it because, as awful as the road that leads to people being in these kinds of support settings is, it’s a privilege to be in the midst of it and anyone who listens will find themselves getting smarter by the minute.

As you put it, it seems like there’s a “light” that comes from this. But to find that light, people have to be willing to look into some pretty grimy abysses which is something most uninitiated people or those in denial violently recoil from.

LookingForwardsToTuesday
LookingForwardsToTuesday
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

Chump on it,

It was either weapons grade chutzpah or terminal stupidity. Either way, I guess that she eventually realised that this was not her space and we are not her tribe.

LFTT

BeBe
BeBe
1 year ago

Friends, sorry for the thread jack…..the letter writer from yesterday’s post is still communicating over there and says she will call a DV hotline (YIPPEE) – start reaching out for help. In case anyone wants to pop over to yesterday’s “Pansexual” thread and lend letter writer some support while the thread is still active… Scroll towards the bottom for most recent stuff.

Last edited 1 year ago by BeBe
Bruno
Bruno
1 year ago

My XW had been a hot mess for over a year. She was emotionally erratic, constantly bickering, complaining about people at work and drinking too much. She was also seeing a therapist, psychiatrist and on several medications. She was 46, so I am thinking menopause, but she does not want to talk about it. Out of the blue she tells me we have an overnight date at a swanky downtown hotel. We get all dressed up for a fancy dinner and have enthusiastic sex, followed by room service breakfast in bed. The she tells me she is pregnant. GULP! Not expecting that, but I tell her we can do this because my parents had a late Oops baby too. Unfortunately, she lost the baby a few days later.
Back too erratic, but now demeaning behavior and comments from her. After maybe a year she says she wants a divorce and shortly I discover she had been having sex with at least two coworkers. I did some embarrassing pick me dancing and she created some ugly scenes but we finally divorced after a year and a half. Later I found some notes in a box of clothes she left behind that told me she had been having sex with a dark skinned brown eyed coworker and it struck me- She had been worried that baby was his. It would have been obvious as we are both blue eyed. She had created quite a mess and must have been torn between losing a baby and not being exposed as a cheater in a humiliating way. Because I loved her at the time I still feel compassion for her, but she made her own bed.

2xchump
2xchump
1 year ago

Must say i was chumped-chumped by my cheater.a three year affair, secret from Me….so a hidden pick me dance. I had a son age 6 and wanted another child. He said no no more and treated me coldly..but one day he said..Chump, I do love you, let’s try for that baby! He actually said,I WANT MY FAMILY I LOVE MY FAMILY..I had zero idea where all those words came from but ok, I was married to my childhood sweetheart 12 years so far right.. i loved him for sure!. I got pregnant immediately, that very night, I’m not kidding. As soon as my pregnancy test came back positive 3 weeks later he said. WHY DID YOU DO THAT???YOU KNEW I DIDN’T WANT ANOTHER KID!!!!! How could you do this to me! I went into shock and his devaluing hit an all time high all during pregnancy. D day big time was 2 weeks after delivery when his parents were visiting from out of state. It was huge since I found the Hallmark card with his secret lover writing how she belonged to him and was anxious to meet the new baby. Are YOU KIDDING???

HauntedHouse
HauntedHouse
1 year ago

I had been married for ten years and my daughter was eight when my husband came home from work early, sat down in a chair and started ugly crying. I thought someone died. He admitted to me that he had an almost three year old daughter with a bartender from our country club. He’d been supporting them for years and I had no idea. We owned our own business and I foolishly trusted him to handle the books. He had been stealing from the business to support them. He only told me because she finally filed for child support. I was pregnant with our son at the time. Horrific.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  HauntedHouse

That is horrible to do to a person, much less your spouse and mother of your child.

I honestly don’t know how folks with young children do it. I was fortunate that my son was fully emancipated when it all went to hell for me. Or at least by the time I found out about the hidden hell I was living with.

Soumiya
Soumiya
1 year ago

I am 10 months post d day, my FW of 10 years confessed to a 4 year long affair with a ho from work and got her knocked up. We have 2 little kids. I kicked him out, he has pretended to be sleeping on friend’s couches and not be with this woman but help her with the bastard. Now he has moved in with her and expects my kids to be all lovey with their half brother. He still pretends to not be in a relationship but won’t matter in the eyes of the law. He almost asked me for alimony and child support! He is the biggest dirtbag but says he is sorry and not a narcissist nor a piece of shit. He is the dumbest of dumb- even got a Ben affleck type Phoenix tattoo on his back. He thinks we are friends, still has my name tattooed on his body. I am desperately trying to move home to chicago. This is all very horrible

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  Soumiya

I’m so sorry for what you are going through. Sounds like this dumb fuck makes one bad decision after another and probably will till he dies. Is he on drugs too? I do hope you’re able to escape from this soon with your kids.

Soumiya
Soumiya
1 year ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Wow you nailed it…
He was sober our whole relationship…17 years. Last few years drinks and does shrooms and EDM concerts. He is a 19 year old retard and found his match

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Soumiya

There’s a close association between adultery and substance addiction though the reports I’ve read don’t seem very clear on the chicken vs. egg contingency. While it’s true that substance addicts are statistically more likely to cheat, a question remains of whether there’s also a tendency of former non-addicts to become addicted while cheating.

I’d like to see studies done which answer this question if just for the fun of watching Perel go into sweaty paroxysms trying to reconcile the findings with her claim that cheating is life-affirming and “healthy.” There are some obvious common sense reasons why one could assume cheaters may begin or deepen addictions in the process of cheating (like suddenly using drugs or booze to quell a bad conscience; or because cheating is abuse and abusers are known to deliberately use drugs and drink as disinhibitors and alibis in order to facilitate abuse rather than the old view that “demon whisky made ’em do it”). But I haven’t seen that association settled yet in a clinical sense though there are other research findings which, if pieced together, might argue that cheating can increase risk of addiction.

For instance, more cheaters are statistically prone to dying of heart attacks (while in the act of cheating) and this has been chalked up to many cheaters trying to live a “younger” lifestyle to keep up with supposedly younger affair partners– especially by drinking, staying out all night, trying more gymnastic sex acts, using drugs, etc. But the “younger affair partner” thing was merely a speculation in the studies I read and other studies on the psychology of “mate poachers” report greater tendency towards dark triad traits which, in turn, predict greater propensity to substance addiction regardless of age. Particularly psychopathy and narcissism are positively correlated with increased substance abuse. So, whether younger or not, it’s arguable that “mate poachers” tend to live juvenile and reckless lifestyles which could furthermore explain why cheaters are more likely to contract and transmit STDs than even people in open relationships. Since cheaters are obviously getting these STDs from affair partners, it suggests that “mate poaching” is probably positively correlated with having unsafe sex (not to mention drunk driving, etc.).

Affairs seem kind of like travel or vacations in the sense that cheaters use them partly as an excuse to party hard and throw normal caution to the wind regarding health and basic safety. At least this is what I saw happening in the industry I used to work in which is a notorious magnet for every type of psycho, harasser and creep including tons of chronic cheaters and serial side pieces. Though I’ve seen a few sober cheaters (for instance, AA in NYC is notoriously packed with 13th steppers who– married or not– screw their way through the recovery world). But personally I’ve never seen a serial side piece who wasn’t an active alcoholic and/or pothead and pill whore.

I have the impression that one of the biggest motives for banging married men seems to be that these women need someone to pay their monster bar tabs and buy their drugs and, since affairs are an excuse to party and married men are more likely to throw money at affair partners in place of actual commitment or respect or honesty, it’s a pretty surefire way to achieve this. That doesn’t mean the side pieces are leading these cheaters into vice or “making” cheaters become drunks, more like these married former teetotalers were looking for an excuse to dive into a big vat of bourbon and pretend they’re teenage frat boys again.

Coffee and Rust
Coffee and Rust
1 year ago

Tangential to the post, but my ex and I were always avoiding pregnancy for our 11-year relationship and only had a couple of “oops” moments. He was always more willing than I to have a baby, so I thought I would be the anxious one in those moments. He surprised me with a raging, hateful reaction to the possibility of being pregnant that felt out of character. I would learn much later that he was amping up his secret double life right at that time. It was no coincidence that in that moment getting rid of the baby would be his panicked priority.

Another tangential pregnancy story is my mom pocket dialing me while talking smack behind my back about how ex and I never had a baby in all those years and then suddenly he’s willing to have 2 with his new, shiny partner after we broke up. She was very clearly making comments about how he must have not cared that much about me, hence the cheating, which is objectively true but she was saying this in a very victim-blaming , commenting how she doubted that I had been emotionally abused. I went no contact with her right then and there. She clearly believes in character transplants and the narrative of “your faults made him cheat”. Disgusting all around.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

Massive, traumatic double betrayal, I’m so sorry. But, on the other hand, you must feel like there’s been an exorcism. You got rid of two toxic monsters in one fell swoop.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

I have never known for sure, but there is suspicion that the whores youngest son is my fws kid. My son actually asked him (many years ago) but he denied it and so did whore.

There is no way to know unless whore says it now, and my son said if she said it now; he likely wouldn’t believe her anyway.

Coffee and Rust
Coffee and Rust
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

well, there’s DNA tests

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

Oh sorry, those days are long gone. The possible son died over 20 years ago at age 20 from a tragic motorcycle accident, DNA tests though likely available were not at the fingertips of folks like they are now. and ex died three years ago.

It really doesn’t matter anymore. I do think it would have mattered to my son, as he had tried and failed to help the kid. But there was really no way to help him.

I did see a picture of him and he did have a very similar chin to my ex, including the indention. But, I tend to think he wasn’t because I think the whore would have loved to shove it in our faces. Who knows. If she thought she could get any money out of anyone she would do it.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

You seem at peace with the unsettled question and I don’t want to rattle this but it occurs to me that, in general, mothers of children begotten in affairs might feel constrained in admitting the truth to these children if the kids had already gotten used to the lie. Also, depending on state law, there can be stiff legal and financial penalties for paternity fraud. If the mother of affair-begotten children had already taken money from a putative father, she may fear being sued for reimbursement or even criminal penalties. If there were any risk of this, someone in your ex’s position may also have fear having to pay the money back since it would reduce joint assets or even come out of his pocket.

Even if the statute of limitations for legal consequences had passed, it’s not really a good look in most communities to be known as someone who profited from fraud. Normal people have trouble wrapping their heads around that die-with-the-lie thing but it’s quite typical in individuals with personality disorders.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

Oh, honestly it makes no difference to me anymore. And both the “child” and my ex are long gone. Actually it never did matter to me, because I didn’t find out that there was any suspicion of it until I was well into my new and improved life.

My son has not spoken to her since his dad died. If the kid were still living and they both wanted to find out, I also would have no issue with it.

My son already knows he has a half sister that his dad fathered when he (his dad) was 15. In those days they had mostly closed adoptions. I didn’t find out about that until after I married him. I asked him why he didn’t tell me before we got married, he said I was afraid you wouldn’t marry me. This is the same fw who told me when he left that he never loved me.

Son did all our ancestry stuff a few years before his dad died, and he called me when he found the connection to this girl. He asked his dad about it and his dad refused to talk about it. I told him then that it is perfectly fine if his dad doesn’t want to be a part of it; but that he had every right to contact her if he wanted to.

My son said he said he has no interest in any connection; but that if she ever contacted him, he would have no issue meeting her.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

He was so desperate to marry you that he lied about a lovechild? Because… you’re a multi-billionaire? Or you were a match or the kidney transplant he needed? If his motives were as loveless as he claims, I guess that, by default, this just leaves your spectacularly hot bod. 😉

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

Who knows why he said it, he was 18 and likely as goofy in love as I was. I was definitely not rich, but for the record I was pretty darn cute as are most 18 year-olds.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

I figured! I’ll never understand the “I never loved you” bit of bull but it seems a lot of cheaters pull that one regardless of the fact that chumps– not to mention hordes of bystanders– typically remember things much differently and, in a lot of cases, have pretty incontrovertible evidence (like, say, the fifty or so people at the wedding who saw FWs weeping and declaring undying love, whatever). It’s such a weird lie.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

Not to mention the years in the community where he was certainly happy enough to let me work on his behalf in the community and politics. And oh how he played the jovial, huggy husband. Is isn’t like no one knew me, and knew me well.

I don’t even know what he told other folks, as I pulled myself out of the whole mess, first out of total humiliation then I realized that was a good move on my part. But to be honest I doubt he said too much. He was acting a fool, but he wasn’t stupid and he knew that bashing Susie to folks likely wouldn’t fly as easy as it did to the whore.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

I’ll bet he resented that you were protected by social status and felt deprived by not being able to trash you to everyone he ran across. You spoiled all the fun!

It’s funny how the fundamental pickme dance behavior of a lot of affair partners fluffs up cheaters’ egos over time to the point of being obnoxiously overblown. Of course the whole thing is typically a bait and switch and, if the affair ever becomes a relationship, the worm will quickly turn because the types of people who knowingly participate in adultery tend to be pretty dark. But while they’re in the midst of being fluffed, these freaks seem to start thinking the whole world is going to be as indulgent, accepting and coddling of their every whim and psychotic impulse as their affair partners.

I suppose if someone’s rich and powerful they can probably expect most people to nod along if just out of intimidation. But most cheaters don’t have that kind of clout and risk being pulled up short. Thankfully your ex didn’t have social clout and therefore didn’t have an enthusiastic audience for his shit talk.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

He did have some social clout and power, unfortunately not as much as he thought. I honestly think he thought it would blow over and whore would just be my replacement, and the townspeople would dance.

He didn’t make the calculation that yes he was lying to me, but he was also lying to the man who promoted him and put his confidence in him. When the ethics report hit, it all got blown up.

Susie couldn’t do a thing about what he did, nor did she try, but the mayor had the power to do something. And quite honestly he had to do something, he had to protect the city from a lawsuit, and he was facing down the barrel of his re-election in less than a year. That is when his house of cards fell and he lost what was really important to him. Lots of cops cheat, and they don’t get in trouble. But, he was the only one to screw his direct report and cause a possible lawsuit.

My ex was the text book example of why you shouldn’t —- where you eat.

But yes I do believe his shit talk would have fallen way short of his goal.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

I should have said he didn’t have “enough” social clout to take you down, though I’m sure the AP fluffed him to the point that he may have had an overblown idea of his own social status and power in that regard. Clearly that was the case since the whole thing backfired on him completely. It makes you wonder if the typical affair fluffing diminished his ability to read the room.

I imagine it was simultaneously embarrassing by association to you as well as a relief when he crashed and burned. If I put myself in your shoes at the time, I would have been completely terrified of the fallout of a smear campaign from someone with the middling power he did have in your town. Though it wasn’t a domestic abuse situation, the smear spree that the violent workplace stalker I prosecuted led to a further threat of violence and another attempted assault by two of the stalker’s flying monkeys not to mention costing me several friendships and messing up my career prospects.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

True. I do think I was fortunate by the very fact that we were both so well known. I also think had he been willing to take the lesson, he was given a second chance; but he continued to crash and burn. Sadly, he was never going to admit to himself that his biggest problem was himself.

I had to accept my weaknesses in order to build myself and survive. And even more important, I was finally able to see/remember my strengths and use those to my benefit instead of for his benefit.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

It was very generous of your son to try to help him.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  Mehitable

He did try. When son got out of AF, he came home to this new situation. The kid was definitely a mess. Drugs and alcohol. I believe it was alcohol that caused the accident. The kid was about 12 when my son got out of AF, son was 22.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

Your son sounds like a lovely man, strong and kind.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

He is. He and I have had a really close relationship in the past few years. We always got along and had fun, but as he is aging and I am aging (even faster) it is good to be close.

2xchump
2xchump
1 year ago

Just listened to that Gordon Smart podcast with Sarah Gorrell and she was such a good story teller. I felt for her and her pick me dance with 4 children in tow..but the rest of the interview and that therapist was a total waste. I had to turn it off. That non -too -bright Couples therapist, talking about communication styles,,saving marriages…NEUTRAL??That was it! Also an affair partners neglected child and the bio dad ignores her? More fallout from cheaters who are not deep and move on. Should we feel sorry for OW? Give me Chump lady any day. It is terribly sad to be the unloved child of the Affair partner, but it is just how low cheaters reach down to be shallow and unable to love or take responsibility. It should not be a surprise to CN.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  2xchump

I listened to it too. I thought the therapist was quite nice and helpful, actually. I like when she says, “our culture has led us to this idea that you must have two parents to raise a child — but you don’t!”

Right off the bat, she identifies that what Sarah and Jen are talking about is emotional trauma. Yes, we are talking about trauma responses here on CL.

She’s also not wrong about her point that if you pinpoint when communication broke down, you can identify the core issue of the dysfunction, which ideally will eventually lead to greater self-understanding. (For instance, as in my case and so many others, the husband having to share his “mommy-girlfriend” (to borrow a phrase from the character Derek Hostetler from The Good Place, if anyone watches that!) when a baby arrives.) (Gordon Smart appositely calls the competing demands of a husband and small children “a triage situation”: tbh I think I have a bit of a crush on him now!).

Sarah Gorrell is indeed an excellent communicator. Another person who says Chump Lady saved her life! And Gordon Smart is great. Worth your time, have a listen, fellow Chumpers!!

Last edited 1 year ago by Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

The therapist’s name is Chris Holloway.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
1 year ago

This is timely. I just came across a book at work about Sylvia Plath and her life and suicide, which sought to move past the superficial “sad girl” image she received and look more into her life with serial philanderer Ted Hughes. His having got another woman pregnant while married to Sylvia could have quite possibly contributed to the final straw that caused her to take her life. The story seems to be that she left food and drink out for her children and made sure they were safe before she did it. Meanwhile, the mistress, Assia Weevill, went on to have a life with Hughes and despite having lost the first baby (with whom she was pregnant while Sylvia was still alive) had a daughter, Shura, who Hughes never really acknowledged as his (it probably didn’t help that Assia was still married at the time). This woman realized he was moving on and ended up taking her own life AND the life of her poor daughter, who was only four years old (consumed sleeping pills, turned on gas in the apartment). Hughes, meanwhile, goes on to marry a second time this other other woman he was pursuing. It all reads like a horrifying work of fiction, but sadly all too real. The drama and heartache and pain and loss caused by cheating is absolutely devastating. But the involvement of children just pushes it over the edge. They didn’t ask for any of this but suffer the consequences too.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

It also emerged in the past few years that Hughes had battered Plath repeatedly. The “sad girl” thing is so minimizing and dismissive in the face of the fact Plath likely had full blown battered woman’s syndrome, including the sky-high risk of suicidality especially in that era when there were few supports or even legal protections for women.

The fact that she’d already survived a coercively controlling father (no one can doubt this after reading Plath’s most famous poem, “Daddy”) led many Hughes apologists or general abuse apologists to make the “eggshell skull” argument that Plath’s depression was preexisting and not caused by Hughes. But modern courts mostly reject the “eggshell skull” argument to lighten consequences for abusers. If a perpetrator knew someone already had a knee injury when they kicked the victim’s legs out from under them, the perp is still fully liable for any resulting injury to the knee and furthermore may get additionally penalized for malice. By that modern standard, Hughes knew Plath was still struggling with past trauma and depression which simply makes his treatment of her all the more vicious and intentional.

Though we know from the research of Evan Stark that the psychological aspects of domestic abuse are reported by most battered women to be more paralyzing and devastating than even assault which is what prompted Stark to spearhead the criminalization of coercive control, Stark wasn’t trying to argue that direct violence is “no big deal” or that the combination of the two things isn’t utterly crushing.

Hughes defenders often try to muddle the fact that Plath lived in a kind of proto-feminist era, the idea being that Hughes wasn’t guilty because he didn’t know what he was doing was abuse. But I think that’s complete bullshit. Sadism is sadism in any era. While the proto-feminist era might exonerate Plath of the victim-blaming masochism smear and explain why Plath felt trapped and didn’t get better support, it doesn’t take away the fact that Hughes basically murdered Plath by inciting suicide and, in a sense, did the same to his son by Plath. He should be condemned and reviled.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

OMG, I’m just amazed that any woman would continue to want to be with this evil man. Did he have some kind of particular allure, or was he really handsome or monied? I would think two wives dead by their own hand as well as a child would be enough for me to stay away forever.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
1 year ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Classic handsome poet/artist type. Was likely charismatic enough to charm, but shallow/narc-y enough to flit from woman to woman without considering the fallout of his actions (or possibly reveling in it). There was mention of physical abuse as well. It sounds terrible. Sylvia’s son committed suicide as well later in life.

BeBe
BeBe
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

Hughes has a memorial slab set into the floor of Poet’s Corner in Westminster Abbey. During a recent visit to the Abbey, I vigorously wiped my shoes on it.

Last edited 1 year ago by BeBe
Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago

I’ve seen this happen twice in my own extended family. Two cases of paternity fraud – the husband figured out the first one but only a few years later because the kid looked just like the guy the cousin was fucking around with. I mean….just like him. So that marriage ended in divorce, maybe in some ways it was just as well because it was always a disaster – two people who should not have married. Perhaps at all. The young man was a fuck up, maybe he would have been anyway but the half siblings did not reject him and did try to help him, it just didn’t do much good. The other case has never been publicly exploded – relative has several boys and the last one is obviously not his. I don’t like them so I never really looked into it or listened to gossip or whatever, just ignore it. Interestingly even though it’s obviously not his kid (even father’s own mother would publicly “joke” about this) father fawned over THIS kid and not over any of the others that were obviously his. The disparity is obvious. I don’t like the kid either, he seems very stuck up. But….c’est la vie.

This is coming up a lot now because of the DNA genealogy programs like Ancestry, 23 and Me, etc. I read of a case that was highlighted in Rhode Island recently where one fellow who always felt different from his siblings discovered yeah….he was. Parents were now deceased but Mom had jumped the fence long ago and he was the result. They tried to make it sound like a positive thing in the article because he found all these new relatives, half siblings or whatever, on the AP’s side and formed relationships with them but I can’t help wonder what his original half siblings thought now that they knew what a piece of crap Mom was. I thought it was devastatingly sad, but our media always pushes the bright side of adultery. It did show though that I think many of these kids kind of “know” that they’re different, that they’re cuckoo eggs, they’re not like the others and it has its effect. You can even tell with behavior because genetics is NOT just about physical biology. It also has an effect on personality, behavior, even things like the kind of work you do. I had never met my half sister (father’s first marriage) but when we connected in middle age, we were so much alike in hobbies, interests, work, etc, and we were not raised by the same people and had nothing in common but genes. Do not underestimate genetic heritage, it’s far more powerful and meaningful than people want to admit – probably because they want to underestimate what happens with cuckoo egg kids.

Personally I think this is the worst thing someone can do to their partner, to have a child with someone else. It is so absolutely fucking evil and most of the time I DO THINK IT’S DELIBERATE, whether it’s conscious or not. I think men will have sex w/o protection to show off their virility or to create an permanent exit plan and a second family. It’s their road to a new life!!! And women get pregnant deliberately, unconsciously or not, because this is the guy they WANT to have a baby with. It’s NOT an accident. It’s both an enormous FUCK YOU to the injured spouse but it’s also an inherent exit move. It shows that their real preference in mating is for the AP. It has to be. There’s even a comment from an adulteress in this column where she admits that she wanted a baby with her AP – she’s honest about it. Thank you.

Having a child outside of the marriage or a paternity fraud child is a permanent, ongoing connection and commitment to an affair partner. Some recon programs say to just drop the child completely and never engage with it because the break with the AP must be complete and permanent if recon is to happen. That may be true, but it’s very hard to do that to a child. Your child. It is a permanent connection and permanent commitment and one that MUST NEVER BE MADE FOR THE GOOD OF ALL. DON’T DO THIS.

My recommendation to this problem, which is MUCH larger than people want to recognize – I think it might be about 10% to as high as a possible 30% of all births (paternity fraud) is to DNA test all babies at birth. I think fathers need to be reassured automatically that THIS IS THEIR CHILD. It would also help with bonding right from the start as this has always been a concern of many males – that perhaps this isn’t their child especially if this kid is not like them. And if someone tries to pass off a cuckoo egg child onto a spouse, there should be real punishment for this kind of fraud. Some men actually find out that ALL THEIR KIDS ARE NOT THEIRS. Yes, I’ve read of this – people have a right to their genetic lineage and to be able to pass it on. To realize that you have not been able to do this, and this is NOT your child even if you love them, is to deny someone a fundamental human right – to pass on your genetic lineage. Yes, this IS important and should be acknowledged.

As for the children themselves, I have not seen as much comment on this but from what I’ve observed it seems like the kids know on some level that they are not the same as their siblings and they seem to feel different. Especially in paternity fraud perhaps they don’t feel the same love or interest from father, which frankly, is natural. And if this comes out as it does either with the revelation of an affair or a DNA test….it breaks up the family and I wonder if the child has feelings of guilt about this even though it is not their fault.

Having an affair child is one of the absolute worst things any person can do. Look at the Dave Grohl situation right now, as he tries to now deflect by shitting on his wife with allegations of “flirting”. His 3 legal kids must be devastated by this, they no longer have an exclusive father, now they have to share him with this set of strangers and know that they didn’t mean enough to him and his wife didn’t mean enough to him, to just keep it in his pants or at least use protection.

Last edited 1 year ago by Mehitable
kokichi
kokichi
1 year ago
Reply to  Mehitable

Thank you for expressing this, as I found it very compassionate to our situation. I highly recommend Mark Wolynn’s book “It Didn’t Start With You.” It is about research into generational trauma. Researchers found that even mice who were test tube babies had the grandfather’s fear response.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago

I will thank you for sharing your story here about what happens with what I call a cuckoo egg child. You’ve seen the devastation this wreaks and not just for a period of time, it goes on and on and the child itself frequently ends up feeling like it doesn’t belong anywhere and it’s parents are both pieces of crap. Not to insult you, but I think that’s what they frequently end up feeling. Sounds like you learned from this and hopefully have moved on to a better way of life. You’ve confirmed what I said in my post above about these conceptions usually being DELIBERATE and I think they are even if it’s on an unconscious level. Women especially WANT to have children with their AP if they get pregnant – sometimes it may be simple baby trapping or mate poaching, but often it’s that they DO want their child. We just don’t acknowledge anymore that we are instinctual beings too.

Last edited 1 year ago by Mehitable
FYI_
FYI_
1 year ago

I hope this underscores the fallacy of FWs being “great parents.” You CAN’T be a great parent and cheat on your spouse. It is not something you can compartmentalize. If you hurt a child’s parent, you hurt the child. Period. The relationship to a child is so symbiotic — whether it is a mother or a father — that you cannot think the child will be unaffected. Even time spent with the AP is time spent away from the children.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
1 year ago
Reply to  FYI_

Right. These FWs bring children into this world and then proceed to destroy these children’s families. In ex FW’s case, we had an entire relationship/marriage/decision to have a kid during which he was living his secret sexual basement life. Forget me, where was our (HIS OWN) daughter in all of that? She suffers the loss of a home with both of her parents in it and less complicated life because of his lack of foresight and compassion. It does not compute.

Last edited 1 year ago by ChumpOnIt
Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  FYI_

When you have an affair, you are robbing your entire family, including your children, of the time, energy, and often money, you should be spending on them.

Pancakestack
Pancakestack
1 year ago

My ex started his affair with a coworker while I was pregnant. My once loving husband turned cold and mean overnight. He stopped saying he loved me and stopped all physical affection. I would beg him to tell me what was wrong and how we could fix things but nothing I said or did was good enough (because he already checked out of our relationship) and he was making me feel like I was the worst person in the world. It was so confusing and stressful at the time. I felt I was going to become a single mother. Even though he was there with me at the labour I felt so utterly alone and sad (not to mention we’d also just moved to another country so I had no family there for support).

When we had our son he was still so cold towards me and would start fights over nothing. He made everything harder and more stressful than it had to be.

Then our son died from SIDS. This was the absolute worst most traumatic thing to ever happen. I knew in my heart my husband would leave and he did. A month later.

And like an idiot I fought so hard to get him back for a year. Playing the pick me dance when I didn’t know my husband was dating his AP. I even slept with him a few times thinking this would help or it showed he still wanted me. He never once told me he was with her, a woman I knew he worked with and who had been at our son’s funeral. Who had visited and held our son while he was alive.

After that year when I was finally done trying to make things work with him I was moving into my new place when he suddenly told me he wanted to come back and work on our marriage. He wanted to have a life together, more kids etc. Again like an idiot I took him back. He told me he’d been dating the OW which made me so angry and sad and I felt was cheating but I told myself that technically we were separated…. basically I just went against my gut feelings and I regret that to this day.

Because he never stopped seeing her. He just started a full blown affair for the next 2 years. Living a double life. Stressing me the fuck out while I was grieving and trying to keep my head above water. He’d play hot and cold. Threaten to divorce me whenever I grew suspicious or pushed him for commitment. Again his behaviour made zero sense until he finally confessed to the affair.

The rage I’ve felt finding out my ex husband and his OW could be so evil and cruel really consumed me for a while. To do what they did to a bereaved mother at the height of her grief… It’s like the more I heal the more anger I feel at them and at myself for putting up with so much shitty behaviour towards myself. For not walking away immediately when my husband started to treat me badly. I’m angry this is my story. I’m angry I didn’t love and protect myself more. I wish I had’ve taken my son and left when he was born.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Pancakestack

I’m so sorry this happened to you. I’m also unnerved by it and worried for your safety considering how callous and scary your ex and his partner in crime are to have been capable of doing this to a pregnant woman. It’s so vicious that I couldn’t put anything else past people who would do this.

Furthermore, given the new science on the effects of emotional abuse of mothers on infant health, I think it’s arguable that both your ex and the AP contributed to the death of your child.

If you read the study review below, several of the negative health effects on infants which are correlated with abuse of mothers are also associated with increased SIDS risk: https://forbabyssake.org.uk/news/2024/07/01/what-is-the-impact-of-domestic-abuse-on-babies-and-children/

I don’t mean to stoke your grief or rightful anger anew but it occurs to me how wrong it would be if you ever felt blamed for the death of your child. I’d like to take that straw off your back in the case anyone ever threw it on the pile that’s already burdening you.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  Pancakestack

Sending you a big hug, Pancakestack. Don’t be mad at yourself, you didn’t do anything wrong, you just didn’t have the facts. Be patient and your heart will heal.

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago
Reply to  Pancakestack

Pancakestack, my heart goes out to you. I am so very sorry you went though the traumatic loss of your son.

And I understand your regret about not leaving your husband earlier. I still have some of that same regret, even decades years after divorcing the first of my two cheating husbands. But the more I read the comments on this site, the more I see that this regret is held in common by so many members of CN! Which is to say that once one has truly committed to someone, it is very hard to read the signs correctly when that person suddenly becomes cold and distant. So in a word, I encourage you to be easy on yourself.

You sound like a kind and tenderhearted person. I wish you well.

Learning
Learning
1 year ago
Reply to  Pancakestack

You lost your dear son. Pancakestack there is no greater loss that a person can experience than that.

My heart breaks for you and I am so, so sorry that this has happened to you.

So you were a beautiful, loving mother filled with hope about your future, love for your child and dedicated to your husband.

And these two oil slick dwellers were two puddles of amoral stinking shit swilling about with each other.

You seem to feel worried about your anger being somehow ‘not correct’ or ‘too much’. I feel angry for you! You have every right to be angry. For the violations against you and in memory of your son.

It’s probably no coincidence that the stronger you grow, the more angry you feel. Your anger sounds like a healthy response to such a grievous set of violations.

Sometimes it’s ok to call out evil and say “You know what? Evil. They are simply Evil. “

You were dealing with actual toxic human evil.

It’s shocking when it happens and I think that it’s hard for others to understand unless they’ve encountered evil too. It’s hard to process that such malignancy even exists. But it can.

There’s going to be a set of extra toasty special VIP front row seats in hell for these two sub-human pieces of shit.

With love and hugs to you for your loss and to your healing.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  Learning

“And deliver us from evil” — really FEEL that phrase now.

Learning
Learning
1 year ago
Reply to  Learning

I wanted to add an important qualifier on the question of anger.

Anger against them? Yes. And it should be a white hot powerful anger….

Self recrimination against yourself for ‘putting up’ with this evil? No.

It’s scary how readily we Chumps introject the toxicity of FWs.

If this happened to a friend of yours and they were talking about their motivations at the time it all happened, what would be your impression?

Sense of loyalty check.
Values of love and commitment check.
Believing in doing the hard yards to make a relationship work check.
Belief in the beauty of a strong family unit when raising a baby check.
Having the humility ‘to try’ check

Can you see how the qualities you had that led you to stay were quite innately beautiful? You weren’t flawed by staying.

Your beautiful qualities were hi-jacked by two pieces of shit.

You were unlucky enough to be in the presence of real toxicity and malevolence.

That’s a whole other mindfuck that takes time to fully reveal itself to Chumps – who don’t have dark hearts.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Learning

Amen to that. Also I would point out that it can sometimes take years and years for abuse survivors to realize, following escape, all the ways they were also coerced– sometimes subtly through gesture warfare, oblique threats, sometimes just a barely tangible yet deeply felt sense that an abuser might be capable of much, much worse if victims attempt to leave– into remaining within abusive situations.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
New Beginnings
New Beginnings
1 year ago
Reply to  Pancakestack

I am so sorry for your loss, Pancakestack. And for the betrayal that accompanied it.

Your anger is normal. Be angry at them but don’t beat yourself up too much. You tried to make things work, and you loved with your whole heart. He should rot in hell….

Chumpolicious
Chumpolicious
1 year ago

My FW kept questioning if my son was his. Afterawhile I was annoyed I said lets do a paternity test to shut you up. He didnt go through with it. Maybe he did a secret one? He finally shut up about it. Years later when my son got Tourettes I said you see he’s yours, he has your Tourettes. He always maintained he had no other kids or got anyone else pregnant. But who knows? Liars gonna lie. I have witnessed him projecting. Its so odd to experience it. Once you know about it and experience it a few times, you know what it is. It makes sense that he did get someone pregnant and was projecting. I would believe it.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpolicious

Absolutely, once you learn about projection, it really helps explain a lot of things, Chumpolicious!! All my cheater husband’s accusations were confessions. Still can’t imagine what it’s like to go through life for these people. It’s such an odd behavior.

RecoveringHopiumAddict.
RecoveringHopiumAddict.
1 year ago

The final (unwitting) OW got pregnant. According to the letter he wrote to me after the truth surfaced, he was happy because “it meant finally he could stop living two lives.”

But then they decided to have an abortion because (in her words), she knew something was wrong with their relationship but she didn’t know what. So he “had” to continue the charade for another four months, until she turned up on my doorstep.

He’s also a Jesus Cheater (although it feels deeply disrespectful to my awesome lord and saviour to call him that). I’m all about someone’s right to choose – this is not such a big issue in New Zealand – but I secretly hope that one still burns his conscience. Especially when he’s polishing that perfect Christian image.

(Sorry, this one’s a little triggering for me. We had 6 years of infertility before having our two sons, and affair #1 started while I was pregnant with the youngest.)

NoShitCupcakes
NoShitCupcakes
1 year ago

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/apr/23/features11.g21

I feel absolutely no sympathy for Ted Hughes or Assia Wevill.

Damn shame about all of the children Hughes harmed directly and indirectly. Selfish bastard.

Nemesis
Nemesis
1 year ago

My FW married a massage parlor whore as soon as the ink was dry on our divorce. They are still married, and she is still practicing her profession. Guess she quickly found out FW isn’t the wealthy man she thought he was when the money ran out from the retirement account he liquidated without my knowledge. I hope he’s worried every single day about how many happy endings and BJs she’s giving.

The whore’s teenage son is likely his child. The timeframe matches when he suddenly announced he was getting a vasectomy. I had been on birth control for years and asked him to get a vasectomy so I could stop taking them. He VEHEMENTLY refused, saying he’d never let a doctor anywhere near his junk with a knife. He said he changed his mind and was doing it for me, so I didn’t have to take birth control anymore. Chumpy me, I thought it seemed odd, but was happy he was finally putting my wellbeing above his own. He has not admitted to anyone that he is the kid’s father, but everyone on his side of the family believes he is. 

From what I hear, FW is not happy. Whore wife moved her mother in with them and he hates that they all speak Chinese around him. He thinks they are all talking shit about him. They probably are. 😂 I saw a recent picture of him, and I didn’t even recognize him. He’s puffy, and looks like he’s aged twenty years, not just the five it’s been since he left. I don’t know if I’d recognize him if I passed him on the street.

I’m mostly at meh now, thank goodness. SO glad he’s no longer in my life. He truly is one sick puppy.

Chumpolicious
Chumpolicious
1 year ago
Reply to  Nemesis

Yes, my FW scheduled a vasectomy 2 weeks prior to my son being born. I had a non viable pregnancy before my son. I said to FW wait till at least I have a live healthy child. So he did reschedule to after my son was born. He has always denied having fathered other kids or getting anyone pregnant and them having an abortion. But based on everyones comments and him asking repeatedly if our son was his(projection), now I think hes lying. Liars gonna lie. I have no evidence, so wtfks? But it just makes sense. You cant give FW the benefit of the doubt. My brain now spins out of control and I see dark ulterior motives to peoples behavior. I was previously naive, now im paranoid. But You know what they say. Sometimes you are paranoid you are being followed but you are being followed!

WalkawayWoman
WalkawayWoman
1 year ago

A couple of months ago, one of my cousins contacted me to let me know we have a heretofore unknown cousin, the product of our uncle’s affair with a much-younger workplace schmoopie.
Uncle was a married father of four. His youngest child was 10 when he impregnated the schmoopie.
The family lore was that uncle’s wife was a bitter, demanding, eternally displeased harridan, and uncle was this hapless figure, forever trying in vain to please and placate his wife.
My mother did hint to me when I was long grown, that her brother-in-law (my uncle) had been a “ladies’ man” and had cheated on his wife.
I’m betting the affair that produced my new cousin wasn’t the only one.
Rumors were flying around the workplace, and most people either knew or guessed that uncle was the father of schmoopie’s baby. Soon after the baby was born schmoopie moved away, and raised her only child as a single mom.
When he got old enough to ask who his father was, she told him he was a “test-tube baby” and that digging in the past was a bad idea.
After his mother passed away, he found a card signed by several of his mother’s coworkers, congratulating her on the birth of her baby. Uncle’s name was on the card.
With the help of one of his mother’s former colleagues, he began to uncover the truth. And when he did an ancestry DNA test, he matched with a couple of uncle’s family members.
By then, both uncle and his wife had passed away. Uncle never told his four children they had a half-sibling, and he never made contact with schmoopie’s son.

BattleDancingUnicorn
BattleDancingUnicorn
1 year ago

There’s so much I don’t know about APs, but I think I would have found out by now if there were any affair babies. I’ve accepted that my son will probably have half siblings one day so FW can play house, and that is what it is.

I was the one who got pregnant during the affair. He claimed he loved me and wanted to be my spouse until the day I left (and after). I got to experience pregnancy without the stress of a D-Day, but they came fast and furious during my son’s first year of life. I wish I had realized then that single parenting is much easier than raising a FW too.

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
1 year ago

Yesterday’s Friday Challenge was, “Who Got Pregnant,” and I didn’t answer (or even bother to read the comments) because none of my three ex-husbands impregnated anyone — that I knew of — while we were in a relationship. But for some reason, the topic stuck in my mind, and I couldn’t figure out why. And then, as I was walking my elderly dog very SLLOOOWWWWLY over our half mile walking route this morning, I knew why the topic was so stuck in my mind. My father was a cheater as was his father, his grandfather and his great-grandfather. Their line is famous in the county where I was raised for being cheaters. I don’t know if my mother ever cheated, but her mother, grandmother and great-grandmother were famous for being hyper-religious. So maybe; maybe not. I have always felt as though I didn’t belong in the family, like I wasn’t really one of them. But I was the family scapegoat, so of course I didn’t.  

I moved out of my parents’ house over fifty years ago, when I was 17. For most of my life, I lived one or two thousand miles away. I visited every few years for up to 72 hours at a time. If I had had any idea that “no contact” was an option, I would have/should have done that. My parents were toxic. Mother was always angry, and now that I have been cheated on I understand it.  

A few years ago, when my cousin was dying of a brain tumor, I went home for a couple of days to see her. While I was there, stopped by the local cemetery to visit my parents’ graves. The family farm where I grew up was nearby, the house built by my great-great-great-great grandfather empty and falling down.  I drove in the driveway to visit the sprawling old tree where I used to hide in the foliage when my mother was having a tantrum. To my very great surprise, there was a truck parked at the end of the very long driveway, and a man I didn’t know standing next to it. He was about my age, and he looked just exactly like my father had looked when he was that age. Or my great-grandfather.  

As we chatted, I wondered if he was my brother. Or my uncle possibly or even my great-uncle? I didn’t know and I understood that he didn’t know either. He just said he was “related to the family that lived here.” Whoever he was, he didn’t share his last name, and he was not one of the plethora of uncles, great-uncles, or cousins I knew when I was a kid.

I grew up hearing my father tell “cute stories” and “funny anecdotes” about how my great-grandfather used to sneak out of church while his wife was playing the organ and meet his mistress out back. Or how Grandpa used to take my Dad with him when he went to visit his mistress, and he played with her kids, not knowing if they were siblings or not. When I was a young adult, married to my first cheater, my father would call me to complain about problems such as my mother’s “poor reaction” to learning about his engagement to a former classmate of mine. Mother said he could have a divorce if he wanted, but he was going to have to move out and get a job because she was keeping the farm. “I paid for it,” she said. “I’m keeping it.” It was years later when I understood the reason he didn’t want me to date certain boys I knew in high school. All he would say back then was, “I went to school with his mother.” DNA matching was not a thing in the early 70s.  

Unsurprisingly, my sister grew up to be a cheater. She cheated on every boyfriend she ever had, and with most of mine. She slept with two of my husbands while they were husbands, and perhaps even the third — although he preferred men. I grew up to be a chump. I was raised to believe I was worthless, that the abuse I got was my own fault and that I should be more like my sister. It should not have been a mystery how I wound up married to cheaters and abusers.  

Cheating is a generational problem. When you grow up with a cheater, even if you don’t understand the cheating, you grow up believing such behavior is normal. A father who didn’t earn a living, didn’t do anything that could be classified as “women’s work” and required his wife and daughters help him with his business and his farm was normal. A mother who worked full time, raised the kids, did everything around the house, helped with Dad’s unprofitable “business” and with the farm was normal. She had five jobs, he couldn’t even manage one. It was normal for parents to have noisy fights, for Mother to fall down the stairs, and for Father to cheat or take shortcuts in every aspect of life. She was highly competent. He was not. And I believed that was normal, too. And so I married weak, incompetent and integrity-challenged men because I believed that’s what men were like. 

tallgrass
tallgrass
1 year ago

Mine was a forty year marriage. After D-Day, the rose colored glasses had been ripped from my face and so many odd events over the years began to reveal hints of the shadowy secret life he carefully maintained for decades.

There isn’t a day go by that I don’t ponder when or if my adult children will discover they have half siblings none of us knew about. I would not be the least bit shocked. In some ways, I think it could be the only thing that breaks their steadfast loyalty to “My dad had the sadz. It’s all your fault. You deserve to be alone because you broke up our perfectly happy family.”