Got Any Chump Lady Podcast Requests?
The Chump Lady podcast “Tell Me How You’re Mighty: Real Talk About Cheating” with my co-host Sarah Gorrell, turned one year old this week!
Wait, what? You have a podcast?
Yes! Chump Lady has a podcast. It’s available everywhere you get podcasts! We interview chumps about how they overcame infidelity and got their lives back. Also researchers, authors, psychologists, and one RIC outlier, Andrew G Marshall.
In fairness, it was early days, our fourth episode in fact, where Sarah and I (okay, mostly me), caused Mr. Marshall to collapse in despair and say he couldn’t go on. So cruel were our direct questions.
Good times.
Anywho, in honor of our anniversary:
The Friday Challenge is to tell CN what your dream infidelity podcast sounds like.
What topics do you want covered? Who would you like to see as a guest? What is the proper fuckwit-to-mighty story ratio?
I want to see Chump Lady and Esther Perel in an audio cage fight.
I can’t promise that. But we can dream.
If you’d like to give Tell Me How You’re Mighty an anniversary present, please review the podcast, preferably on Apple (which is the dominant market share of all podcasts).
It helps the algorithms. It helps new chumps find it. And it evens out the one-star reviews that cheaters leave. (Yes, really. One of them is from Mr. Marshall, of “Wives Need to Apologize to Their Cheating Husbands” fame.)
And if you want to help me run the blog and pay for a Chump Lady podcast (it has yet to earn enough to pay for what it costs to edit it), please become a patron on Patreon. You get it early and ad-free. And some merch rewards too!
So TGIF, and keep changing the narrative! What more would you like to hear from Tell Me How You’re Mighty?
Looking forward to reading these new and interesting podcasts (I have hearing problems and can’t really hear them, so have to read them when they are available to read). My request as far as a topic, is to look into how people triumph when thay are older, as in their 70s. I am 6 years younger than the FW, but didn’t discover his lifetime of lies, cheating wirh countless women, prostitutes, criminals, massages, porn and strip clubs, 3 affairs that lasted 20-25 years and involved international travel, etc, etc, until we were both retired empty-nesters in our 70s. Unfortunatley I also stumbeld onto a non-helpful website (affairrecovery.com) before getting real help. I am in a much better place now, but when I think back to sharing a bed with that FW for all those years, I am sick to my stomach. (Kids and grandkids intitally considered reconciliation and decided against it)
How do the folks in their 70s triumph while dealing with all the things that we have to deal with, anyhow? I wish I woud have know more back then. I never fell into the “not good enough trap,” as I am an accomplished, highly educated and amazingly beautiful woman (not to mention record-holder racer in my age group!! Yay!)-so I never doubted myself or my worth. I just never thought he would be attracted to this sort of trash. That was my error. So glad I discovered this site and got a good therapist to help me move on. Thanks!
Totally second this suggestion.
I second the “triumph when they are older” request. I was 64 when I left my ex, and retired the same year I divorced him, because we worked at the same place. Sorting out post-marriage and post-retirement life at the same time has been rough, especially adding in my mother who was declining and needed my help.
Indeed…I found a good therapist who continues to be helpful.(Not covered by Medicare) She had a lot of experience in working with women who had been cheated on, as well as with cheaters, but was not a reconcilliation-pusher at all. She honestly told me, that despite 20 + years at it, she had never treated a woman in her 70s, and she wanted to let me know that. She had questions for me to help her learn things about issues that were impacting my life in general, as well as specifically to being cheated on for my entire marriage. Basic concepts are likely the same, but moving on looks a bit different. I think there are more of us out here than we are aware of.
In the old days women would outlive men. Be widowers for 20-30 yrs and enjoy their life. Not anymore men live longer. Thats why I believe there are more gray hair divorces. My mom passed away before my cheater dad. I wish she could have had some nice years without him.
I would love to hear a podcast interviewing coercive control expert Dr. Christine Cocciola who studied and worked with the late Evan Stark and is now carrying the torch and testifying all over the country (and possibly internationally?) to criminalize CC.
As a survivor herself of coercive control which included cheating by a terrifying ex, I have a feeling Dr. Cocciola has much to say about the role of cheating in control and entrapment. I would probably pose a reader question regarding the relationship between cheating and battering– whether there’s any research showing overlaps between “batterer mentality” and “cheater psychology,” any science showing elevated statistical risk of eventual violence by cheaters or, if this research doesn’t yet exist, any observations she might have made about these things along the way.
Actually I’d have a million questions for her but they’d hardly all fit into one podcast. For instance, since Dr. Cocciola is familiar with intersection between coercive control and cheating, I wonder whether she feels those currently working to forge laws and statutes against CC are being sufficiently vigilant about the ways the language of these laws could end up unintentionally being doubled back against victims who are also being cheated on (which, in my experience, would be more than 90%) if, say, there are no clarifications about why one partner might be snooping on the other’s phone or hiring private investigators. In short, since cheating victims have some valid safety reasons to snoop such as knowing whether they’re being exposed to deadly STDs or if scarce family assets are being squandered on hookers and affairs (in some places, financial abuse is officially considered a form of direct violence because of its sometimes life-threatening effects), what can be done to the language of these laws to distinguish “safety sleuthing” from the motive of “abusive control”?
Anyway, that’s my dream podcast. 🙂
Dr. Cocciola and all the questions you discussed would be really interesting to hear!
Because the criminalization of coercive control is based on years of statistics showing the behavior is frequently predictive of assault or lethal violence, I guess by extension if cheating in some cases is viewed as an aspect of coercive control, it would follow that cheating could also be predictive of violence. One study of DV in Bolivia found that enforcement of one-sided monogamy was a major driver of domestic abuse.
But even if us regular Joes can attest that cheating is part and parcel with abuse, in order for research to have any impact on legislation, researchers would still have ask every question, prove every theory, etc. They’d certainly have to determine which forms of cheating definitively did or didn’t relate to coercive control, if there were exceptions to abusive dynamics, etc. For instance, another study found that battered women under lethal threat might sometimes “monkey branch” to basically gain the services of a body guard, not to punish, control or abuse (side note: doing this might be understandable but not recommended since this apparently leads to subsequent abuse by another abuser in about 50% of cases– maybe because the supposed rescuer may still be a plain old psychopathic mate poacher even if seemingly justified).
In any event, since she’s on the front lines of the legislative push, I’m sure Dr. Cocciola is more aware than anyone about how new public safety laws require research support. I would guess she’s thought about it a lot and is a font of insights.
I’ll get on that!
That would be awesome! My inner geek is jumping up and down. 😉
Yes, I agree with the “gray divorce” aspect. When I was going through that, it was hard to find examples of people who came out well and divorced when they were on the brink or during retirement. Most of the local women I heard about who went through that ended up in bitter poverty and/or with significant health problems.
Yes! It is daunting to leave a cheater at age 65+. At least there’s Medicare and health insurance not a worry! Finances scarier than if younger. Still worth the peace of getting away.
I divorced at 67 and came too close to abject poverty.
This is really interesting to me too even though mine wasn’t a gray divorce (early 40s).
I was told by the judge that, despite a great income disparity (due to supporting FW’s military career), the retirement would be split 50/50 because I was “still young” and had “plenty of time” to make it up.
Do you think the financial advisor I visited shared the judge’s opinion? Absolutely not.
I’ll work the rest of my life and not make it up. I can’t even imagine what I’d do if I had been planning on retirement when DDay hit. The emotional toll alone would be staggering, having the rug pulled out from under you like that.
My ex had retired in his early 60’s for medical reasons. The youngest had just graduated from high school and was headed to the community college. The older one had gotten into a selective program at the four-year two counties away after graduating from the community college. I had worked part-time professionally for just enough to pay for our kids’ activities and vacations, then college and such because they were living at home. I thought I would continue that long enough to pay their bills and then fully retire myself when one or both graduated. It was easy, remote work, about ten hours a week.
We had been in rough times both as a couple and as a family, then boom! His mental health took a nosedive after retiring. We separated twice, with the second being the final with a whole avalanche of crazy. That was followed by a wild divorce when I refused to reconcile. Because he was retired with no hope of working again and because we were not truly wealthy, all I could expect was 50/50 of the retirement assets from a judge. That was not enough to live on and get two kids through college. Thankfully, we settled without a trial, but 50/50 was it.
It came together, but gosh, that was hard. I don’t take for granted that I came out better than most.
Something that I would be keen to hear a Podcast on would be about how a Chump can move on in the absence of an admission of wrongdoing and an acceptance of responsibility by the Cheater. I took me much longer that I would have wished to get my head around the fact that if I waited for these from Ex-Mrs LFTT before I began to heal, then … well I’d still be waiting.
I am sure that others can articulate this better than I can, just as I’m sure that there are others who achieved this insight much earlier than I did.
LFTT
I spent about six months post separation trying to get to the truth with my FW. Spoiler alert: I never did.
It was the most frustrating, confusing headfuckery I’ve ever been through. Utterly traumatising.
I got every excuse you always see on here – from “I don’t remember” right through to a flat out “I’m not talking about that”.
About six months after we separated I met my now husband. He lived in another state and the first time I went to visit him, I left my kids with the FW and I also shared my flight itinerary. As I was sitting in the airport waiting to board (where the FW knew I was), I get an email. It was the most insane sad sausage bullshit you could imagine. On and on about the “tombstone around his heart” because of what he’d done – pretty much all of which he still refused to disclose to me. It was his special secret tombstone, obviously. Lamenting how he’d screwed up everything and I “deserved to be happy” without him. My God it was worthy of framing, he laid on the pity party with a trowel.
And he did it literally the second he realised the kibble dispenser was going to get cut off because I’d met someone else.
This was the point the penny really dropped for me that he really was a manipulative monster who would never, ever tell me the truth.
From that day on I stopped asking him to explain what happened, and I moved on with my life.
Eight years later I still don’t know when the affair started or what really happened, except for what I can put together from his emails. Eight years later, it doesn’t even matter because I’m no longer married to a cheater and his AP is.
Justice all around, I say 🙂
Yes, my former cheating FW still claims that this is all a big misunderstanding. I stayed from several years because I felt that I needed ‘proof’ that he was cheating – and all I had was years of sketchy behavior, lies, gaslighting, being treated poorly, etc.
At one point he finally admitted that he had been cheating on every partner all his life. He wasn’t exactly apologizing for this – it was more of a ‘sad sausage’, I am a victim sort of narrative. The next day he changed his story and he was back to saying he never cheated on me… misunderstanding… blah, blah, blah. That was the end for me.
I’ve moved on now (almost 7 years – yay!). He has never apologized for cheating – and never will I expect.
Just came to say that the podcasts are GREAT. So fun to listen to. Feels like sitting for coffee with friends. I have not settled on a “venue” but have listened on spotify (sp?), mostly on YouTube where I subscribed and somewhere else so they are easily accessible. And if / when I log into patreon, I follow that link.
I apologize if any of my wish list has been covered-I have caught random episodes since February and am only now working through the back catalogue.
Along with standard “here is how to cope and a roadmap for healing” content, a post from a while back got me thinking. Specifically the one about the French neighbor going “that’s is how men are”(I will repeat my stance from back then-no, no we aren’t. BOYS yes, MEN no.) I’d love to hear more from attitudes, cultural factors, and more importantly healing/moving on(heavens willing) from different, preferably non-English speaking cultures.
And also: if we can get some, like, documentary style “I fell for the RIC and got burned” survival stories as further proof that it just doesn’t work, that would be wonderful.
Have a Fuckwit Free Friday!
“and also: if we can get some, like, documentary style “I fell for the RIC and got burned” survival stories as further proof that it just doesn’t work, that would be wonderful.”
I second this!!!
I keep having reels pop on my Facebook feed that are about RIC. It’s crazy how insidious those messages are!!! We are always saying how CL is fighting the good fight getting this other message of LACGAL out there. I knew it was important for so many reasons, but lately it’s really been hitting home. We are finally about to START the legal divorce process through mediation. I’m so scared. This is years in the making, it needs to be done. It’s taken this long for a few reasons: covid, pick me dancing and his resistance. He resisted the legal aspect and I am afraid of him so was doing some kind of idiotic dance, waiting for him to be onboard. Well, now he is. WHY? Because he found a new girlfriend and I am assuming he is hoping to marry her which he can’t do if he’s still married to me.
This new gf development has REALLY set me back. I knew that someday it would happen, he’s been dating loads of women since he moved out last summer. All the dating didn’t bother me. But the fact that he is “super committed” and “planning a future” with someone he’d met 8 weeks ago just triggered me in a way I never saw coming. Honestly I think it is because this woman will be involved with my kids and it’s bringing back all the insecurities and fears I had about the AP.
I know I need to get over it, and I know I will, it’s still new. I need time. But in my current state, I’m feeling low and I am so vulnerable to these RIC posts that I keep seeing online. i believe in the LACGAL process. Logically, I know a future with a cheater is no future. But I’m not very mighty at the moment and all these posts online about how people forgave their cheaters and got past the infidelity and are now in a stronger marriage than ever are SO upsetting. They make me feel like I made a mistake. I KNOW I didn’t, but it’s just hard in my current situation. Bitter Bunny or not, it is hard to see him move on so happy while I am still trying to claw my way back to life. And I can’t be the only chump that feels this way. Hell, those happy RIC stories are getting to me and I am fully committed to LACGAL, I can only imagine what those stories do to people who haven’t FOUND CL/CN! It just shows me how urgent it is that we get the message out to combat the BS RIC.
I hear you. When I saw pics of my FW on social media(that my dumbass self had not forgotten to unfriend/unfollow/block on) with a new guy(that was not a known schmoopie, but hey, I’m not the ethically compromised one) it sent me into a spiral. The core thought was “she has moved on and I have not.” Took me about a weekend(and some therapy and bad food, but I digress) to solidify the thought that “of course she moved on-she moved on before D-Day-I’M the one that got ambushed!”)
It sounds like yours was already dating BEFORE any of this went nuclear-just like mine. And it sounds like just like with you, yours is going to fuck it up just like he did with you. It’s all impression management and trying to prove to the world that he wasn’t the problem. And he is very wrong.
I repeat: I feel like all of the RIC is just normalizing bad and impulsive behavior. If people want to be polyamorous-that’s on them as long as everybody is aware and consenting. I personally do not believe in that sort of thing. The significant problem is when terms of the relationship are unilaterally and secretly changed. I mean, if you think somebody isn’t going to be ok with something, why do it in secret?
I also personally find the “you need to forgive these things” to be an extremely hard pill to swallow coming from a group of people that, by and at large, seem to be wholly incapable of any kind of forgiveness themselves. Heaven knows my FW was a rage monster with an enemies list.
The Path to the Mighty is fraught with peril. You’ve got this! We’re here for you!
Just for cultural reference, I’m half French and lived there throughout my twenties (such fun being young in Paris!). The Anglo view of French culture isn’t reflective of how things are on the ground. Catholicism prioritizes strong family values that filter into the whole society.
Understood. I was in no way taking a shot at your culture-just citing an example from a previous post. Thanks for the info!
It’s kind of like how Argentines are known worldwide for rich, crass, bleach-blond, sleazy-macho Nazi sympathizers who trash hotel rooms. That faction certainly exists but it’s such a shriveled, embattled element in what is otherwise a pretty warm, educated, matriarchal and humanitarian-leaning culture.
I’d love to hear financial topics. When I got divorced it struck me that the dissolution of my marriage was little more than re-negotiation of a financial contract.
Topics:
Leaving a cheater when you are the breadwinner
Financial reasons cheaters push for wreckonciliation
Protecting yourself financially during separation or wreckonciliation
Hiring a forensic accountant
Ways cheaters hide money during divorce
Divorcing in retirement
Losing your retirement life plan
Building financial independence after divorce
… I could write these all day!
Absolutely! My CPA buddy saved my bacon in helping me structuring a settlement that reconciled retirement funds, pensions and me buying out my wife’s interest in the family home. He also did our taxes during the divorce and the first year post divorce. My attorney had an in house CPA that was very helpful as well. The divorce settlement tied all this together so there were no loose ends and no private agreements that could be reneged on.
By the time he took off and left us, our finances — and that’s a kind, fancy word for that little pile — were already in shambles. A divorce lawyer told me that is typical of these disordered people. If you have enough money to pay for forensic accountants, count yourself lucky.. Marriage is first and foremost a financial contract, and yes, Elsie, the courts absolutely will not help you. If you are experiencing physical violence, there is some social will to intervene and help. But a husband who skips out and doesn’t pay — mine is getting away with it scot-free and yes, I have been left in poverty along with my children. Which, I realize, would be the most frickin’ depressing podcast subject ever…!
“Leaving a Cheater When You Are the Breadwinner”
Yes, please! This was way more challenging that I expected it to be..
Especially if alimony is suddenly on your table.
CHUMP LADY Tracy, you are my HERO extraordinaire–who has donated her brainb as a living sacrifice for us chumps. Absolutely. Let’s all get supportive. Join Patreon which is an app you will get on your phon. At a measly 3$ a month( You can do more, but Tracy knows I’m retired, old and broke from my last senior divorce at 70) But she loves me anyway). This is much less than you spend on coffee! You will get podcasts to your phone and be notified of them. Then you can listen on any device. I have an android. Then comment on here and keep the love and support flowing. I don’t do Facebook due to, too anxious to get rid of hackers and interlopers— can’t control creeps.. so stay off it. But the Patreon app does it for me. Tracy is the love of my life and has kept me going through locking out my creepy cheater and a horrible divorce process. It’s getting better and better. For another PODCAST—suggestion is– So Ive listened to Ross Rosenberg because he uses a 10 or 11 step program to help get away from abusers and STAY AWAY. It must cost a pretty penny and I didn’t use him, but he was an advocate for getting out and getting safe if that is what you want. There were few that do this. He has done Youtubes interviewing weak therapists that get you to stay… and deal with it. But if that is where people are, that is where they are. I recall my therapist of many years, who normalized my then husbands sex addiction and his creepiness with my daughter– so very bad advice is out there. CL keeps me sober and on track. She gave me the courage to stay NO CONTACT and showed me the character traits of a very sick person who was hurting me. I cannot blame anyone for how long it took me to move on and listen to my distorted but correct intuition, but it was from a life time and childhood of questioning what was being safe and what was hurtful. Raised in a violent home with a mentally ill dad and a frightened compliant mom who did her very best to get me to be stronger than she was. And I actually was, but not in a timely way. It all is where I am today. Free at last. Thank you Tracy
Ditto on the mentally ill, violent father and placating mother who nonetheless passed on to me the lesson of self-respect as best she could. Her example of staying and placating, and her use of me when I was young to “manage” my father had unfortunate effects, however, that I brought with me to my 35 year marriage. But like you, I eventually was able to put her positive lessons in practice for myself.
Adelante, placating is such a perfect work..have not heard it in many years. I disrespected my mother for my early life due to her silence during violence and verbal ongoing abuse throughout her marriage. Then I did DNA and found the stories of my parents parents. Mothers dead from Spanish flu, abandoning mothers and fathers generations back.Then I look at me, 2 cheaters, one at q3 years in, another at 31. And me placatong and letting go to the point of my extinction. But now I see with new eyes, now that I am free. ..the roles they perpetuated and the role I stepped into. Loving myself now is my journey and accepting, growing and integrating my soul with my families reality. I have so much respect for my mom who ‘ stood by’ and showed my courage under fire. She had few choices due to her broken down physicall health from abuse, but she taught me strength and courage enough to lose 2 abusers and now live free. Thank you for your response. It was full of understanding.
I once put myself between my sitting-in-a-highchair father after my mother sat silent, after throwing her a look of disgust for her refusal to act. Later, after I learned more about how domestic violence conditions its victims, I was so ashamed of my disdain for her. She once said, in another incident, “If I say anything, I’ll just make it worse.”
Adelante me exactly! I thought I could control my dad since he softened when I was near him. I had the magic wand my mother
Lacked. My mother told me once that if she left,she would only marry someone just like him again! How did she know that? No CL in the 60s 70s 80s! As I matured I saw who my dad was and disrespected him and held to my moms sadness…tried to comfort her. My magic wand passed to my little sister who took care of my dad through dementia. She idolized him and hated my mom. So 3 girls of my parents all took the blows sooner or later. My oldest sister took the highest abuse from my dad. Not pretty, fid not reflect well on his narcissist traits. But now I see both my parents and understand they had very little to work with from their childhoods..letting go of them with love and understanding works for me now. Passing through both my cheaters is next…letting them go. No fawning or wanting such destruction back…no contact..but I understand.their messes too. Not mine to clean up …fired and for the best. I’m very grateful 🙏
Both my parents are gone now, buried together ❤️ ❤️Fascinating lives of adaptation to abuse
That first sentence ought to read…”I once put myself between my sitting-in-a-highchair sister and my father…”
I’m still here some years post-divorce for the sobriety reason as well. Besides, the twelfth step in recovery is to continue to carry the message to others. Being active here and with Patreon is part of my recovery.
I’m interested in the psychology of the OW, specifically the “Single White Female” types. What’s it all about Alfie? Ex’s OW obviously wanted my husband, but also my house, my car, tried to buddy up with my daughter, and 8 months after the divorce was final I was fired and she took my job (she was shockingly unqualified). Just a couple of weeks ago I saw a photo of the happy couple and I was shocked to see that she had gained around 50-60 lbs (I was fat during my marriage) and has dyed her hair to my auburn color. What is going on? Although she is not a bunny boiler I just find it soooooo creepy.
that is a seriously crazy story
Social research has it that “mate poachers” tend towards dark triad/dark tetrad personality types, particularly psychopathy. https://kb.osu.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/6bda356c-e961-5cba-987c-cfbd94bd8c1b/content
Also interesting are the differences between OW and OM
I don’t know why, but I’d love to have you snag an interview with some celebrity chumps that are willing to share and support. Maybe Sandra Bullock? Kelly Clarkson? Tiger Woods’ ex wife? One that comes to mind that was really open about it is Mario Lopez’s ex Ali Landry (who continues to be open about it): https://au.news.yahoo.com/lifestyle/ali-landry-is-forever-grateful-for-tiger-woods-situation-with-ex-mario-lopez-212514017.html
I just think it helps us all to see that Chumps can be gorgeous celebrities. It would be nice to have them join the narrative that all chumps need to leave a Cheater… and that cheaters are idiots. Who would cheat on these any of them???
Is it shallow to agree? I’ll admit it, I totally find it helpful to know it happens to celebrities. But why stop at the B list? Jennifer Aniston and Angelina Jolie! Jennifer Garner! Mia Farrow! And I have a special place in my heart for the funny, vulnerable hothead Alice Evans. Her story is the one that most resembles mine. (I bet Alice Evans would do it, too, if it didn’t violate any legal agreements.)
It seems that, last year, Alice Evan’s daughter filed for a restraining order against FW Elmer Gruffudd (whatever) and the latter’s AP/gf for assaulting her. Gruffudd apparently tricked the teen into meeting the AP against his daughter’s objections and, when she tried to leave the house, the AP allegedly slammed a door on her head and Gruffudd allegedly tried to grab her and also gaslight her that the door event hadn’t happened. Gruffudd then filed a complaint about Evans for fabricating child abuse charges and a judge later denied the restraining order despite reported visible bruises on the child.
yes, he walked out on them and then engaged in bonkers levels of lying and projection-based accusations, it seems.
… a pattern I am sadly familiar with…
Yes! Or Shakira and Carly Pearce, too. Carly’s latest album is basically an anthem of recovery from a FW.
Happy birthday to the podcast!
For me personally, it’s so helpful to hear from fellow religious exiles, Jesus cheater chumps, and folks who tackle this topic. In addition to the fabulous Divorce Minister, there is Natalie Hoffman of Flying Free and Dr. Sherri Keffer of Intimate Deception. There is also Anna Clark Miller of Martyr, She Wrote, who tackles many different religious trauma topics, but hasn’t yet covered cheating. Two for one special, maybe? Lol.
I’d also be interested to hear from some less visible groups in this community. We know that cheating knows no bounds, and we’ve heard about how cheating impacts male chumps differently, but I’d also be interested to hear how it differently impacts LGBTQ2+ folks, people with different disabilities, folks in different parts of the world and with different cultural backgrounds, etc. I know that’s harder to do, but I feel like the people you’d need are here in the community already.
You know what else would be cool? To share things from Chumpalooza. Presenters could talk about their presentations! (TEMPEST!!!) I’d also love to hear the stories again. I was so focused on my own near the end of the night that I barely remember the others and I know they were SO GOOD. I’m not trying to self-promote here at all. If you left me out of it, I’d still love it.
Yes, I was only in the audience, but I still am in awe of the mightiness of those presentations. Truly a highlight!
I’d like to see a discussion with family law-adjacent folks on how to vet divorce/separation attorneys. CL posts and comments are always full of “get a lawyer!” rhetoric, but I found that process at least as much of a minefield as finding a therapist.
The first attorney I consulted said I’d be lucky to get any of the house (that we co-owned and that I’d paid the mortgage on for years). She told me that since I had an education, I could forget about alimony or even child support, even though we had made the joint decision for me to stay at home with the kids for a few years because of the cost of child care. When I got overwhelmed and started to cry, she leaned over the desk and said in the nastiest tone, “This is the choice you made when you decided not to WORK.”
The second attorney was nice and empathetic in person, but kept sending over the wrong (higher than I told her) numbers for child support and alimony, causing a ton of drama with FW. I finally figured out it was deliberate, that she was trying to turn our relatively low-conflict separation into something that would bring in more billable hours for her.
So, maybe a show on how to avoid the attorneys that like to prey on chumps when they’re already at their most vulnerable?
Yes, and how to select a good divorce lawyer and weather the divorce. Finding a lawyer is just the first step…a lot to navigate. Not a fun time.
:”This is the choice you made when you decided not to WORK” — yes!! I’ve experienced nothing but scorn for being a stay-at-home mom, which also was a joint decision in my case. I know that feeling. I have been bullied and disrespected and shamed by all the lawyers, on my side and his, for not “working”. Of course, I was “working” my ass off! At a job that is apparently worthless in society’s eyes… To be honest, I deeply resent being shamed and ridiculed for staying home with the kids. There’s an element of triumph and relish in my distress from the lawyers that is really distasteful and ugly. It echoes my husband’s resentment of being “displaced” in my affections by our children.
He has deserted us, does not provide any money, and now taunts me that, now I found a low-paying job, at age 58, after being out of the workplace for ten years, that I need to find a “higher-paying” job… He, his lawyers, and the court all browbeat me, belittle my efforts and ridicule my distress.
It’s the cult of “work”, and the devaluing of motherhood and children it demands of its followers.
100%
I agree with you on the trickiness of finding an attorney that will best represent you. There’s a myth too that most attorneys are willing to have a free session with you — my experience has been that they don’t say anything that isn’t generic stuff.
I love the podcast Tracey! Would Mr CL be willing to share his story?
Also, I’d love an audio UBT post.
I saw this article on forgiveness today: <https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/well/mind/forgiveness-healing-peace.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3E0.III7.PF7lPe9v29Mo&smid=url-share>; it quotes from an author, Amanda Gregory, whose upcoming book is titled, “You Don’t Need to Forgive: Trauma Recovery on Your Own Terms.” She or others mentioned in the article could be a good interview.
In my experience, it’s not uncommon for those who’ve chosen to go No Contact to be on the receiving end of subtle judgments that, if you won’t forgive, the problem lies with you. I believe this notion cannot be smacked down hard enough, often enough.
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Another topic that comes to mind is the glorification of hope. One sees this word on wall art, decorative accessories, jewelry, whatever. As though it were a noble concept. I have come to believe that, for survivors of trauma and betrayal, hope is anything but noble. My personal motto on that topic is: hope is deadly.
I know CL has many writings on “put down the Hopium pipe” (all are excellent). Perhaps a podcast on the damage from societal tendency to glorify that word, “Hope.”
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A last idea is to focus in on the toxic courtship messages in a few specific well-known romantic movies. We all got our backwards ideas about what’s acceptable from somewhere, many of us from movies. Some examples from my teen years: “Valley Girl,” where the script has Randy basically stalking Julie, and “Breakfast Club,” where the script has Molly Ringwald’s character fall for Judd Nelson’s character even though he puts her down repeatedly.
I would love an explanation of why no-fault divorce was considered an advance for women!!! My state is only no-fault, and it seems to be the only area of law where you can walk away from a contract breach with no consequences. Why do some states allow fault or no-fault? How can we lobby for change without appearing crazy? This could be a nice angle to investigate on Leaving A Cheater When You’re The Breadwinner.
I also love the suggestion about Advice For Finding an Attorney. When you’re newly chumped, it’s really hard to wrap your head around needing an attorney experienced with high-conflict divorce. Especially if you have a sneaky, low-conflict cheater.
Now that social conservatives have their eye on no-fault divorce this is going to end up being a tricky and politicizing subject. I agree that it ought to be possible to hold a cheater accountable, but I sure don’t want to see a return to the years when the standard of evidence for a divorce forced too many women to stay in marriages they needed to get out.
I think that’s all the more reason to discuss a history of how we got here-to this place of no accountability in most states. Your comment implies people thought it would help women who were forced to stay in marriages-but how and why? Today in fault-states if you can’t prove fault, you can still get a divorce, but I hear the threat gives a chump leverage. It’s very confusing and I’d love to hear Tracy explain it.
I searched and didn’t this topic, so I hope I didn’t miss something obvious.
I’d like to see adult children of cheaters discuss the effect. If they weren’t told the reason, did they blame themselves? If they did know and custody was awarded to the non-cheater, were they angry and blamed them for not keeping their spouse? Did they go from middle class to lower class? What changed as they became adults?
Congratulations, Tracy and Sarah, your podcast is one year old! Yayyyyy! Pretty sure I’m not the first to say this, but I am soooo interested in a survey of the stories collected by CL. I think it must be the only collection like it in the world! So, basically, an interview with Tracy, and Sarah is a fantastic interviewer. I’d say it’d be a two-parter, too.
Love the podcasts so much! Happy Birthday to them!
Would JayDee Milo be a fun guest? I discovered his instagram and facebook via another chump on The ChumpNation facebook page.
He’s such fun and he knows what we’re dealing with.
I agree with another of today’s posters that it would be interesting to hear about the experiences of chump children.
Im the chumped daughter of a chump. And had a chumped grandparent as well. I’ve often found the wise, kind comments here so helpful in understanding my chumped parent better.
I also notice how some of your children are so perceptive and strong about their cheater parent and how you’ve helped them be like this.
Decoding the cheater parent for the chump children?
I went through being a chump while neck deep in the Evangelical Christian divorce recovery complex. I went through DivorceCare two times and led groups probably ten times before becoming disillusioned and using non church based curriculum. While I remain a Christian, there is a lot wrong and harmful about the teaching on divorce and adultery. I thought I was alone in this feeling until I discovered DM, Divorce Minister. Gretchen Baskerville is another author who speaks with experience and authority on this topic. She wrote, “The Life Saving Divorce” based on her experiences and some thorough review of existing research. She would be a good interview guest on your blog. I know that their is some crossover between her Facebook group and the Chumplady Facebook groups. There are other members of CN that could tell their stories as well.
Hi there fellow chumps,
My FW cheated with his 16 year younger schmoopie coworker clichè emotionally for at least a year. The timeline to D’day (8 months ago) went:
Saturday we had a date night much I love you, great stage of life we are in and planning holidays etc. Wrote poetry about our love being forever🤮
Tuesday he told her he had feelings for her which she reciprocated.
Friday he told her it was a big mistake.
Sunday they went out together all day while I was at work. I had a really sick feeling something was off, he had been strange all week.
Sunday night I asked if he had something to tell me. Got the we are just friends, aren’t I allowed to have friends speech.
Sunday night/monday morning woke with a really sick feeling and checked his phone and find text messages, pictures of her kids and cat and that his whatsapp had a password protection,
Monday night the truth came out.
After a week of fight or flight, many discussions, him having panic attacks so thinking stay and try. The messaging I saw when I was trying to get my head around it and he was trying to prove it wasn’t that bad where her love bombing him saying what a moral and intelligent and stand up guy he is. She couldn’t manage without his support. All the typical stuff I guess. He had never mentioned her to me. Totally a secret.
Tuesday had a bit of a breakdown at work then I told him not to come home.
Wednesday, sitting in my car outside my workplace, I had a panic attack and couldn’t go in.
Wednesday night at my daughter’s performance he begged to come home. It was a mistake. He hadn’t made a decision.. I said you are bad for my mental health, this is my decision.
To be honest not sure if it was a really final decision then but
Thursday he took her to a hotel and slept with her. So decision made. Less than 3 weeks (for me) and our family was completely broken.
Now apparently the only reason they slept together was because I kicked him out. Nothing happened until we were separated. Total gaslighting.
So that’s the short version of my story 😅
Now to my podcasts ideas.
Is emotional infidelity just as traumatic and wrong or maybe even worse than a one off sexual infidelity? My FW argues that it wasn’t really an affair. Nothing happened.
Also the whole generational trauma pattern repeating and ways we might be able to stop the cycle. My FW did this after 23 years together when our children were the same ages (14+16) as he and his brother were when his mother did it to them. I know Sarah and a few others I have spoken to have had similar situations. I never thought he would do it because well I am so fantastic 😅and because he knows the trauma it causes.
Thanks so much for this site and podcasts. Really very helpful in my recovery.
I would like a psychiatrist or psychologist guest who specializes in betrayal trauma speak about it vis a vis cheating.
Love the podcasts! I would love to hear an interview with Sam Vaknin. He is an expert in Narcissism and also says there is NO excuse for cheating, EVER!