Does Couples Therapy with Cheaters Work? An Interview with Andrew G. Marshall
Today’s podcast — and blog fodder — is the interview Sarah Gorrell and I did with popular British therapist and author Andrew G Marshall. We had some difference of opinions about the feasibility of couples therapy with cheaters. As in, how can you have honest conversations with deceptive partners?
Hang on, Tracy. Before you go any further — where can I listen to this complete sh*t show?
Well, I’ve embedded the episode below, but you can also subscribe to the Tell Me How You’re Mighty podcast on Spotify and Google podcasts and wherever you get your podcasts.
You’re the Leave a Cheater lady. Why are you talking with a reconciliation therapist?
To see if one holds up to the scrutiny of critical thinking.
How’d that go?
Not well. We found some common ground, but then it all went pear-shaped. I agree that you can learn a lot about yourself from experiencing infidelity. And you can become a stronger, more enlightened person as a result of these painful lessons. However, I don’t think betrayal improves marriages. And frankly, I find it offensive that more emphasis is put on untangling cheater skeins — do the work, chump! — than self-protection from an abuser’s harm.
I also found it weird that a man who describes helping people cope with infidelity as his “life’s work” had zero curiosity about my experience, or Sarah’s, or the millions of people on this blog. He did perk up, however, at Sarah’s ex’s FOO issues.
If you don’t have the time now to listen to 45 minutes of awkwardness — I’ll hit the highlights for you.
Andrew G Marshall is dismissive.
He finds Sarah’s story (abandoned with four kids) and mine (serial cheater) “extreme.” He dismisses Chump Nation as also being on the “extreme end” of infidelity. (No idea where he found the time to wade through millions of stories, but okay.) We’re all people who “left”, so it’s not the same “subset.” (I pointed out the majority of us tried reconciliation first, and couples therapy with cheaters. Also, aren’t all chumps the same “set”? but whatever.)
On no fewer than three occasions when asked a difficult question, he tries to paint me as “angry.”
I’m familiar with that I-can’t-answer-your-question-I-don’t-like-your-tone mindfuckery. (Hello, I wrote a whole chapter on Stupid Shit Cheaters Say.)
But it’s also standard misogyny — women are emotional and men are rational. We can’t be trusted with ideas, or our heads might explode into snakes. Don’t worry your little Gorgon head there, Miss.
I would think if you had the courage of your convictions — your life’s work! — you would welcome the opportunity to explain your ideas. That a solid counter argument wouldn’t leave you deflated, head in hands, bemoaning that you cannot. go. on.
But see, he’s reacting to my “anger” — not my logic. If I’m mean, then it’s a conversation stopper. Can’t talk to the Mean Lady.
Sarah, however, absolutely had him on the ropes with “What’s the gold, Andrew?” and starting out of the gate asking if he had any lived experience of infidelity? But Sarah is exquisitely polite and disarming. And utterly unflappable! Note how Andrew began the first minute by mansplaining broadcasting to Sarah — an award-winning, BBC Radio presenter.
The G is for gaslighting.
On two occasions, Andrew denied some of his more controversial takes on infidelity. The first — that if you want to “win back” a cheating husband, you must first apologize to him. He said he was taken out of context. The Daily Mail writes what it wants. Yet, here he doubles down on it, on television, with advice columnist Denise Robertson.
Next, he denies ever promoting “affair proofing” your marriage. I tell him I literally watched a video of him saying that, and he dismisses it as the work of “marketers.” (Enjoy the fact check at the 32:00 minute mark.)
Let’s return to hopium and “do the work.”
But what Andrew G. Marshall really sells — and sells well — is hopium. The idea that if you just try harder, and “do the work” in couples therapy with a cheater, you will have a stronger marriage and a more committed partner.
If it fails? Hey, you didn’t Do The Work. You didn’t go “deep” enough or try hard enough. When pressed about what such work looks like (let alone what it costs) — What’s the gold, Andrew? — or how practical it is to expect honesty from cheaters, Andrew falters. Yet, he keeps returning time and time again to magic power of deep conversations.
First off, this assumes there’s some insight problem. The evidence is pretty clear — some people enjoy fucking around and lack compassion for their partners. They aren’t that deep. If you want to plumb their shallow depths — okay, but why should a chump waste time on a shrink sofa for that? Wouldn’t remorse and better understanding come with tangibles like a postnup or immediate legal settlement?
I think that question comes from your pain, Tracy.
I think that question comes from painful experience. Nonetheless it’s a legitimate question. Got a “sorry” cheater? Conversation doesn’t cut it. Show me the money. A fair settlement is NOTHING compared to the STD risks, emotional and time costs of reconciliation.
In the end, it seems ironic that a man whose whole premise seems to be deep, deep conversations cannot have one with two polite women journalists.
I know this is shallow, but so is Andrew so I am going to say it anyway: Just looking at him, I want to slap his stupid face.
I don’t know if it’s causation or correlation, but dudes that dismiss women as “angry” or “too emotional” all seem to have very punchable faces.
The shallowness of character and personality is significant IMO, and if I come across it again, it’ll be a big red flag to me!
One of the things that struck me during the death throws of my relationship with FW was how shallow he seemed to have become! He had lost all interest in anything that didn’t directly involve him, and I couldn’t have anything approaching an intelligent, adult, deep conversation about issues that matter, (even what’s happening in Ireland , never mind the world,) with him anymore. As for MY issues, thoughts and feelings? No genuine interest whatsoever!
He’d accused me of “always being on the computer” when I threw him out; that was because it was the nearest to the company of female friends I had ( Mumsnet mainly!) and only intellectual stimulation I could get, as he’d become so self-absorbed, superficial and frankly, rather tedious!
I now suspect what I thought was his depth, was merely mirroring me and that in reality, he was never really much deeper than a mucky puddle!
Shadow, I’ve had the same exact thought – what I thought was X’s depth was likely him mirroring. How did he do it for 20 YEARS though??
Shadow, for a second I thought I wrote this. My experience was exactly the same. He become so shallow that it was difficult to process. There was no way to discuss anything -the world news, books, movies-with him. He was just not interested. He just focused on himself and even then looked depressed and out of touch with the reality.
Same! My ex would have no clue if a tornado, an earthquake or a meteorite was going to hit because he just didn’t give a shit beyond his own superficial bubble-world! And because of that, he was BORING as fuck! Excuse the language 🥴
In my case, I was not “allowed” to discuss anything but the children. If I broached anything else, he’d mention that he loved to hear how the children were doing. If I wanted to go somewhere, meaning with him, he’d say “go ahead.” He also loved to say, “You have to follow your heart.” All trite, all the time. Maddening!
Very similar to my experience whenever I brought up an activity that I wanted to do with just him.
“Oh, with everyone?”
Meaning the close family friend/AP
He looks like he is sneering, the way the cheek comes up and the eye is slightly narrowed. He picked the picture.
Supper’s delight.
Meant duper’s delight.
Well, I mean, he’s ugly. All pictures of him are going to be ugly. Unless he gets into photoshop and like facetune and shit, that’s what his pictures are going to look like.
I agree I cant get past that face!
I was also dumped, by a serial cheater, who abandoned me with 3 young kids, no child support and choosing minimal, sporadic involvment in their lives – I guess I”m also an “Extreme Case”. All Extreme Case Chumps, raise your hands for Andrew…
As with #MeToo, the stories you hear are the stories that people (1) have lived to tell and (2) can bear to tell. I have no doubt that there are easy-breezy amicable divorces.
I also believe that there are some that are even sadder and darker than those that maggot dismisses as “extreme cases”.
Mom, is that you??? Seems like this story is quite common.
I’m not an extreme case. I had a garden variety selfish dipshit who had already been dumped by OW by the time I figured it out, and he didn’t want a divorce. I didn’t get std’s, fear for my life, or go broke. My kids are fine. I had supportive people around me.
Still, Tracy is the only one out there that tells the truth of what (even ho-hum non-extreme) infidelity really is. If you don’t get it, you just haven’t thought that hard about it.
I don’t need him to achieve extreme harm levels before I decide I don’t want to be chained to a person that intentionally harms me, at all.
Why wait to be dying from HPV-related cancer and when they do a “Chris Watts” to say “enough,” right?
I think your sentiments are very generous to people who have it worse. You could see “worse” from where you stood and that was sufficient to choose sides. You’ve renewed my faith in humanity. <3
👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
Ditto. I was thinking “those aren’t extreme cases; those are textbook normal cases.”
Thank you for the summary, because I truly don’t think I could stand to listen to it.
It was triggering Observer, and a tough listen…. But I am glad I listened! He mansplains Tracy, followed with “you don’t want to listen to me, do you Tracy?”. Then says “I am beginning to feel really attacked here” and then comments on her ‘anger’! How can an infidelity therapist not deeply understand anger and feeling attacked -because isn’t that the first way Chumps feel? And when a Chump begins to realize the severity of their chumpy situation then being mansplained and told that we don’t want to listen, like a toddler, will always backfire in a huge way. Thanks for having our backs Tracy!
I listened, too. Congratulations to Tracy for handling the mansplaining crybaby with such aplomb! I wonder about how many chumped women he’s ever actually LISTENED to. I see him as similar to the “therapist” I went to with my second husband, the therapist who commented to me, “If he’s never put you in the hospital, you don’t have an abuse problem.”
That “therapist” should be reported to the state licensing board. That statement is not only ignorant it is incredibly dangerous to abuse victims.
Me, either. People like him turn my stomach.
Um, I was dumped. I didn’t leave. During the process of trying to figure out what was happening I did find out things that would have sent me screaming into the night but I didn’t know those things when he dumped my ass. AFTER several years of reconciliation where I thought we had built back a stronger marriage. LMAO
There is nothing we can do right. Everything we do is wrong and everything they do is our fault because they are poor, traumatized victims of life. You know, when you said he was super interested in FOO issues all I could think was oh, he’s one of those losers. Those absolute losers who blame everything on their mommies and daddies while they just pathetically fail their way through lives. “I get to hurt people because mummy didn’t cut the crusts off my sandwiches!”
Oh, yeah! After cutting me out of every possible joint experience (except regular sex), I left, and he told everyone how sad it was that we had “grown apart.” Actually, I had just belatedly grown up.
Yes. At some point you’ve got to say “I’m a goddam adult and I need to take responsibility for my choices and stop blaming my parents”. Plenty of people had horrible childhoods and didn’t end up as abusers and cheaters. FOO issues seem to be a get out of jail free card for so many people, never mind those they hurt along the way. And going to therapy just gives those abusers better language to shift the responsibility.
Thank you @ISawTheLight!
I was s3xually abused as a child. I came from a family where s3xual abuse was generational. Grew up pretty poor with a teen mom. I started working at 13 to help my single mom financially. Relied on charity and kindness for things like my first pair of glasses and getting my first car (from a family I babysat for; I worked off the hours). I worked hard for everything my entire life (still do).
FW was born middle class, the much beloved and much wanted youngest child (only child for his dad, mom’s second husband). He was spoiled rotten and given anything his family could afford. Family vacations, home-cooked meals, hobbies, and extracurriculars I could only dream of. His father took out a second mortgage so FW could go to USC, for heaven’s sake! His family bought him his first car, he lived at home until he moved in with me because it was too expensive to live on his own.
And yet, only one of us is a self-centered, narcissistic sociopath and it’s not the one that “should” be according to FOO BS (sorry but I don’t buy into using that as an excuse for poor behavior).
Agree. My mother cheated on my dad with several guys. He cheated back and had a long term mistress. They fought almost constantly (and loudly) as well. It was distressing to witness all this. I guess I could use that as excuse for being an asshole. Instead, I did the work I needed to get out of that house ASAP and to heal.
I do have two brothers who became addicts. I think they never dealt with all that craziness emotionally. My third brother is doing okay. So it can be overcome.
I was dumped but on a technicality, really, so he can play it either way for sympathy. I was told that if I wanted to stay married, that I had to accept an open relationship because my PPD and physical issues from a difficult birth was harshing his sex life. Period. Well, that was a no, and I gave him one last chance, saying “This is your choice, right here and now” and he decided that he wanted his strange on the side. So I kicked him out and filed for divorce, after which he said we “didn’t need to make it permanent”. His own FATHER neglected to get divorced from his first wife before marrying his second leading to a huge crapshow that FW himself found appalling. And then set the stage to do the same thing, essentially. Turns out he wanted to keep on benefitting from living in a communal property state married and having his “freedom”.
So depending on what he wants out of a friendship/relationship, he twists this around to paint me in the worst light. I think it is hilarious because eventually people compared notes and now he has few, if any, friends. Not my problem.
The only way I could have “worked on my marriage” with this cheater was if I checks notes let him have his girlfriends. So please, tell me what I had to work with here?
And yes, I was angry. It is a natural response to being betrayed, abused, and abandoned. What kind of human would go through that and be all sparkly and meek? Oh right, Stepford Wives. I don’t think he is used to treating women like people, given the way he acted in the podcast.
My friends and I call it, “That one time in band camp …”
Yep, that’s why you abandoned three children. They’ll be good with that explanation.
Your last sentence speak to one of my issues with all this.
Even if there are FOO issues, and lets be honest most of us don’t come from perfect families, that is no excuse. Anymore than it is an excuse for robbing banks and raping and murdering. Why do idiots like this guy excuse horrible behavior against an innocent spouse when they would not excuse it for any other situation.
My childhood was a nightmare so people like Andrew absolutely hate me. They’re so used to having the trump card of “Do you know what it’s like to be abused as a child?” And when I say “yes, i do and that’s why i don’t do it to others. I know how it feels. If you also know how it feels and you do it to others that makes you worse than someone who has never experienced it and abused others, not justified.” They’re so used to people feeling awkward and shutting up when they roll out that victim card. I don’t. If i made it through my shit, so can they. They just don’t want to.
I agree with your comment. Here is my take: Andrew is an enabler. To an enabler, FOO issues are a trump card, because that is the hook for them. That is where the bond and why they enable. There is nothing more to them than the Perpetrator’s underlying issues. When they meet someone who says, “I have the same FOO issues and I don’t behave that way”, then they don’t know what to do. Their enabler script doesn’t allow for a different outcome, and they get uncomfortable and usually either angry or dismissive.
There’s big $$$ in enabling.
A cheater and a chump going to counseling together is like a weasel and a chicken going to dinner together: the weasel only attends to gain advantage over the chicken. And by “gain advantage over,” I mean devour.
Winner winner chicken dinner! This is the perfect analogy!
“A weasel and chicken going to dinner together”….perfectly described!
Yep.
Boy I love being told that I just didn’t try hard enough to reconcile with my lying liar who lied.
“Do the work” is the latest mod-speak for whatever bullshit is being peddled. Cheater keeps cheating? You didn’t do the work. Tracy makes this point. He believes that Tracy is telling her –mere internet– readers that they don’t have to do the work and should just leave (and that they are “on the internet” is such a backhanded smack you can hear the disdain dripping off him). If you counted how many people were helped by Tracy’s efforts vs. this guy it is not even close.
And yes let us have a whole side bar about “come to Jesus” as another way for him to prove his superior perch. To have to deal with these uneducated twisps with their folksy sayings, what a slog for him. Oh my yes, please let us all dab his ample brow as he has to wrestle with these angry harpies.
When he had to reboot in the middle of his well-worn pitch, when he totally lost his train of thought, this was a tell. These ladies were not going to go along with his hopium snake oil sale (he probably will say he doesn’t know that colloquialism either) and he had to have an actual conversation to defend his position he nearly dissolved. Response? Accuse them of being angry and interrupting to put them back on their heels. Honestly, I wondered if Tracy was even in the room at first because she was listening intently and silently to his long introduction, and he obviously defines “interrupting” to mean “disagree with my clearly superior opinions.”
He then lies and says he was taken out of context, that he never said that, that the papers just write what they want to and he couldn’t control that– wait, he just DARVO’d like a champ. Familiar?
Never forget, when someone says they want to have A Conversation– especially when it is about any modern day social issue – they are not actually wanting to debate intelligently or be challenged in any way.
THEY WANT TO HEAR THEIR OPINION COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH.
Otherwise you are off to ad hominem attacks and Godwin’s Law is in force in 3…2…1….
Kaela,
Me too.
My cheater couldn’t dump the kids and I fast enough once her lying and cheating came out into the open; she had zero interest in reconciliation and I’m sure that the only reason that she suggested an open relationship was so that she could enjoy the best of both worlds without fear of consequences for her. The only thing that she wanted custody of was all of the money that she hadn’t got around to stealing from me already; precisely zero interest in the kids!
LFTT
The moment he dismissed saying you can “affair proof” your marriage and then pawned it off on his marketing team was everything. He was caught out red-handed and still couldn’t own his own words.
He doesn’t believe the things he promotes, he just says them to make money. What a guy.
So he’s a liar and a grifter who runs away from tough questions by calling women “angry”. I wonder how many times he’s cheated? He’s got the personality for it.
He probably would LIKE to cheat, but he’s not exactly an Adonis, is he? He’s a bit of a munter, as they say in England so I doubt he’d have many takers!
Unless they were munters too!
And desperate, hehehe!
munter
A woman of such hidious physical apperance that one would rather scour ones eyes out than snatch a glimps of her. So deformed and devoid of any attractive atributes that to beat her to death with her own shoes would be an act of mercy and deemable of a sainthood.
You are what you eat, and munters have eaten all the ugly people they could find!
😂
I copy and pasted that from urban dictionary….
He has cheated Apidae. I’m unfortunate enough to have bought some of his books before finding CL. He admits to having an affair with a married woman after his partner dies. This can be found in his book ‘it’s not a midlife crisis, it’s an opportunity’
He listened to all her tales of woe about her poor chump
Methinks the interview hit a nerve with him
ick ick ick ick ick ick ick ick
I read that his deceased partner was male. So he’s a bisexual FW, then. I’d say that gives him twice the opportunity, but I tend to doubt opportunities come his way a lot.
Dude needs to get his teeth straightened at the very least. He resembles Nosferatu. Imagine a guy with those choppers going down on you. Ouch!
Character transplants dont exist…..
I was left, very dramatically over a turkey sandwich in my kitchen, with the announcement that Ex had one true love and had never been happy until he met his intern. Who he’d been fcking for 9 months, both before and after her marriage to her high school sweetheart. Not sure what “subset” I’m in or if I fit this guy’s mold of people who could have had stronger marriages or whatever, but no amount of therapy or “work” on my part was going to change a guy who slept with his subordinate while his wife was home with three children, including a two-year old, and then gleefully plotted with his mistress to blow up their marriages in the same weekend. My Ex was GLEEFUL when he told me. He was enjoying himself when he blew up my world. Oh and he tricked me into being alone for that conversation by telling me he thought we were financially ready to buy a new home we’d visited and he wanted to talk about the details. What was I supposed to apologize for exactly?
Yes, I didn’t like the statement that we all left.
I was dumped. Many chumps are simply discarded. And, cheaters prefer to phrase it as « I’m leaving you » rather than
‘I was leading a double life, lying, manipulating, gaz lighting you, cheating and using you.´
Or, they abdicate all responsibility by claiming they just fell in wuv and it wasn’t their fault.
Mine took me to a restaurant we had frequented as a family and proceeded to demolition a meatloaf dinner–and pie!–while telling me he was done with our marriage, he’d been unhappy for years (but never even hinted at it, naturally), needed more out of life (I didn’t yet know that he mean ‘more women’), etc. It went on and on and the culmination of it all was that he’d been cheating for 7 years and he was in love with the latest, the now-famous (to me) child mistress.
What was there for me to work with, exactly?
How about “I’m so sorry you’re an a–hole”?
Mine was also gleeful he was taking another man’s wife
So I didn’t try hard enough? My ex was an addict with a history of documented mental health issues. Ultimately, it was he who took off and later insisted that all would be well if we just started over in a new place. But what about…? Everywhere you go, there you are. All the problems would have moved as well.
The manipulation of his image and how he tried to manipulate me ended it. He wanted to continue in a fog of lies and control that I couldn’t live with. Nothing I could do was going to deal with that, and he was very anti-therapy.
Supposedly he’s been sad and lonely at times in between “friends,” but that’s a problem of his own making.
Exactly Elsie!
When I was telling FW during his failed hoover, that I was planning to sell up and go back to England, he said “But sure, couldn’t I come with you?” I made some excuses and said that maybe after a while , to give him “.. a chance to get clean and sober!” and he was not too happy with that but why in the name of all that’s holy would I want a severely damaged, binge-drinking drug addict dragging along with me when I go to start my new, contented, peaceful life? Even one that’s “in recovery”? Especially one that’s betrayed me in the worst, most horrible way by shagging some slapper he hooked and baited on an app?
I’d no intention of letting him come with me and spoiling my new life! I was only really trying to soften things because I had serious concerns he’d try to harm himself, and still have a bit, because he has reason. It can’t be my problem anymore though! He forfeited any claim to my help and support when he chose to betray me!
Yes, my ex had several mental health crises that his attorney blabbed to mine during the divorce process. Mine didn’t tell me until I had an office appointment because he wanted to ensure I wouldn’t try to jump in there. Nope. That role was over even though we weren’t divorced yet. My days of enabling and rescuing were over.
When I was more naive (before d-day), I used to interpret “wherever you go, there you are,” as referring to place, meaning something like “you’re here, you’re there.” It took my experience with FW to teach me that the emphasis in the second half of the sentence was on the “you.” Meaning, you take yourself with you wherever you go, and you can’t escape yourself.
The 9 seconds of silence starting at 11:04, as he’s trying to explain his way out of a hole he’s dug, reminds me so much of those long silences when FW was trying to get me to explain away her fuckedupedness. I could almost see the gears moving and nothing happening.
Yes. That was a very strange moment.
And the shark eyes…. Don’t forget the shark eyes, UX
Someone somewhere on this site guided readers to this YouTube video:
“Cheating on Someone Isn’t Just One Mistake – Drew Michael”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTPsoX9OLFA
Looks like the link did not appear on my end. I’ll try it again in quote marks otherwise this great video can be google searched: “https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTPsoX9OLFA”
LOL. A complex algorithm.
I had a discussion with my divorce attorney about this. We were talking about how my ex felt that he was entitled to any woman, any time. At least thinking about it, you know. Maybe more, maybe not. It blew my mind and upset me, of course. I live in a state where adultery is still a for-cause reason if you go to trial, so it was an important discussion as my attorney weighed the evidence for adultery.
So I asked my male attorney about that, thinking that in 40+ years of divorce law, he had probably been attracted to a client or two. His wife was his business partner and handled the finances/marketing for the firm he founded. What he said stuck with me.
“I can appreciate the qualities of a female client. Like I appreciate your smile and character, Elsie. But I don’t let myself feel entitled to that. And I don’t compare you to my wife at all. My wife is my wife, and you are my client, period. I keep good boundaries. It isn’t that hard.”
My FW once explained to me that it would be rude to turn down a woman who was interested in having a good time with him. Rude. To the interested woman. And after all, he made sure I was satisfied daily at home. Poor befuddled FW. What was my problem, again?
So. True. And you can still see the pain in his eyes. Mine tried the “one mistake” to describe his 7-year affair. My pastor called him out on his BS. She said, “oh, no. You spent thousands of hours, millions of words, maintaining this (long-distance) relationship. You devoted time and family finances into deceiving your family over many years. This isn’t one mistake.”
You’ve got a great pastor! I’ve gone to pastors with problems like cheating and abuse. I’ve always been told it was my fault and to try harder.
Mine tried that too…in a similar way. He was mad I was speaking to lawyers. “It’s as if you don’t trust me”. I said “why would I trust you? You have been lying to me for YEARS.” And he said “only about this ONE thing.” A 6 year affair = so, so, so, so many lies. It’s not one simple one. It’s a betrayal every time he texted her, called her, facetimed her, sent her a gift, made plans with her for the future they would share… a future that necessarily would completely CHANGE mine and I had no idea any of this was even happening. It was also a betrayal every time he acted like we were happily married and pursuing a life together. Every holiday, birthday, family event, kiss etc. They were ALL a lie. Sure, he never lied to me about what he wanted for dinner or what movie we should go see, and this one topic, his illicit extra love life was the “only” area that he lied about. But it’s not ONE lie. The deception was long, deep, ongoing and as vast as the sea.
This! This is why I don’t understand the ‘no fault’ state thing. I live in one and it’s infuriating. Seriously, he’s not “at fault” and so I have to split everything equally with someone who knowingly lied to me every single day for seven years? Who chose his d*ck over his family every day? Who called in sick to work to take his child mistress on long weekends (while I thought he was working)? Who skipped holidays with his family to cheat with women who shared his ‘kinks’ (his word)? Who embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars of joint money to fund his affairs? Who chose his mistress over family time endlessly? Who rented a hotel room on the other side of the island of Oahu from our resort while we were on a family vacation because he couldn’t go one damn week without strange s3x?? Who lived an entire f’ing secret second life?
It’s agonizing and makes me bonkers that I can’t even use any of this as an explanation for why he shouldn’t get equal custody of our daughter! He never chose me or our daughter, he chose his mistress(es) time and again. He spent family money and time with randos from the internet. I can’t use the fact that he lied every day for seven years as an argument about his pattern of lies and behavior for why they shouldn’t believe him when he says that HE is the injured party because I have a terrible temper and (at the same time) am pathetically overemotional (I’m magical that way).
He can claim our daughter is afraid of me but heaven forbid I say that our daughter can’t trust him!
Make it make sense!
Honestly, I’m very much in support of ‘no fault’. My cheater spent two years chasing a body builder from the local gym, and painting herself as the victim. ‘No fault’ let me assess the costs and bring things to a close without her being able to drag me through the courts for months, or years, on end.
You’ll never get a fair answer. The best you can get is one that lets you move on with your life.
I agree. No fault is unfair to chumps, IMO, but I understand some of the policy reasons behind it. Please know, if your attorney hasn’t advised you, that you can try to claw back some of the $ he spent on other women. Those expenditures weren’t for the benefit if the community.
Rather than fight my FW over this issue, I used it to get other things I wanted out of the divorce.
My attorney brought up the possibility of recovering mis-spent marital funds, and I responded, “Oh no, (FW) is the kind that women love to spend money on. They buy dinner, pay the hotel room, give him clothes. The dude had to work really hard to swallow down his obvious envy. I left, and got the job done thanks to Nolo’s do-your-own divorce book/kit.
I’m pretty sure my FW told his APs that we had an open marriage, because once one of them called me once to complain that when “the black-haired woman” was in town, he wasn’t seeing either her or the other woman in his office, and it just wasn’t fair. I was consoling in the moment, and then made a note in my growing file. Said woman once wrote me a heartfelt card urging me to “ask the hard questions,” as if I hadn’t been doing that ever since I knew she had come back into his life after a seven year hiatus.
When the kids were no longer in danger of being shipped to FW and the black-haired AP for joint custody, I finally filed. FW actually thought I’d just pack a suitcase and leave. But armed with my thick file of transgressions, I fought for what I was legally due, and got that and then probably another third when he balked at a reasonable request; I sought alimony and settled for a one-time 6-figure payout. Yay me!
Upshot: I’m doing well, having a blast in my tropical paradise retirement about a decade after FW had a “brief illness” and died. I get the widow’s social security payment, which more than doubled my early retirement stipend. No regrets for leaving; no regrets for the timing; no regrets. So yeah, FW, if you were around to ask again, I’d answer yes, I’m happy now!
Yes, I should be getting the condo in exchange for the more than $150k (my half) he owes me.
Fantastic bit! Should be on the Chumpalooza playlist!
Yeah I tried to have deep conversations. Tried to get him to go to therapy. Even asked him to go to one of the RIC weekend retreats. Offered to sell the house and move away from my family, do whatever he wanted. Accept full fault for making him cheat.
The only time FW deviated from “I want both” was when schmoopie issued the ultimatum — it was me or her. He left and wouldn’t hear of any further efforts at reconciliation. Not sure what other work I was supposed to be doing.
Some cheaters are just sociopathic heaps of shit. Could I still get some crumbs of his attention by completely subverting my humanity and dignity? Yeah, probably… but do I want to model that to my daughters? Naaaah.
In the end, I’m grateful to schmoopie for ending the worst of the mind-fuck for me with her demands. I hope they have many years together, reaping what they’ve sown.
I did all this and more… same result— more abuse. Nothing to work with.
My ex was great at having “deep conversations.” His failure was more along the lines of the actual doing of the things he talked about doing.
Oh, man… The hours spent talking in circles during “deep conversations” where he would provide some word salad epiphany he’d had and how it negates everything bad he did bc NOW he “understands himself”. As if the epiphany (not the actions AFTER the epiphany) was proof he was a changed man. LOL. What a FW XD
I think mine MUCH preferred talking over doing.
The thing is this guy is supposedly a researcher/expert, if he has not read CL site, why not. I found it years after my ex trashed me. I had not given him much thought for years as I lived my new life. Then he tore my sons life apart, so I started research and found CL.
I read all her site from beginning to end, if I could do it; why wouldn’t someone who says they are an expert, what’s to fear about reading other experiences.
Bingo! 10 million plus visitors and at least millions of posters here….. to look would require him to admit we aren’t outliers and he is W.R.O.N.G. Narcs can’t handle that…
Right? It seems he didn’t do too much prep work. But then, since he is the EXPERT, he probably didn’t think he needed to do any.
Yeah, he was there to pontificate; to explain it all to the poor dumb chumps. And furious that both took him up on his implied offer to actually have a conversation rather than just a teacher-student session.
I wonder what “subset” I’m in… FW who not only lied to me since our first date, but lied to his psychiatrist, his therapist, and FOUR marriage counselors. I mean…
Early in this podcast, he is asked to share his own story. His response made me immediately think he is a cheater. Weaseled out of responding very quickly. This guy is a major FW.
I thought of that too.
I went to his website and under the Biography section he makes zero mention of any family, spouse, children, etc. I’m also curious as to what his background is.
Upthread someone mentioned that according to one of his books, he had an affair with a married woman after his husband died. So I guess he’s feeling a little defensive!
SS, his husband died some years back and he wrote a book about it.
I don’t know if he ever married again.
Couldn’t listen in one go. Will try again later. My take so far is he assumes that the cheater is honest and forthcoming. Cambridge English dictionary definition of a cheater: a person who behaves in a dishonest way in order to win or get an advantage.
Exactly and if it is accepted a person who cheats on tests, stealing and reusing term papers, steals from others whether by petty thefts or Madoff level stealing is a cheater and is behaving in a way to gain advantage/win; why do he exclude a cheater in a marriage and give him/her excuses.
If I had a forum and anyone would listen, my advice to any newly minted chump is to immediately secure your finances, legally if possible; or move half of everything that you can to separate accounts, immediately.
If I read CL correct this is her stance too, so I am glad she does have a forum, and is out there for all baby chumps. She gives hope, and guidance for a way to safety.
You can figure the rest of it out, but secure your finances and health first, to the best of your ability.
Questions for credentialed therapists (in U.S, if it matters): Are you prevented from telling a chump that the cheater revealed their behavior during an individual session? Are the rules for this transparency discussed in first session? Is it malpractice if this doesn’t occur?
If a professional from another field – legal, financial or insurance – did not mitigate harm, what would happen?
When ex & I entered couple’s therapy, at first it was one session, the two of us together, once a week. We wasted lots of $$ arguing in front of her, getting nowhere for several months. She never even gave us stuff to “work on” in between sessions.
After my ex asked for a trial separation (after I got mad catching him in yet another lie after dealing with years of his lies), our therapist then suggested we add individual sessions with her in addition to our couples session. Gee, she got to triple her $$ from us! She did tell us that she would keep no secrets from the other party. Ugh, it was such a waste.
Later, during and after the divorce I started individual therapy with a new therapist. She said that it was unethical for our couples therapist to see us individually (although not illegal, just not something she thought of as good practice).
Legal- in my jurisdiction, you cannot represent parties who have an actual conflict. You have to withdraw from representing both parties. Duty of loyalty…
(I’m keeping an eye on this too — where I live, I’ve only known couples therapists to say they CAN’T meet individually with either partner and each partner needs their own separate therapist for that. Curious what you learn.)
Six years ago our marriage counselor did. Since I discovered Chump Lady (thank god) I now now there were several things the counselor did that were so RIC that I had to have therapy for my therapy.
Does couples counseling (as opposed to psychotherapy) routinely include individual sessions for assessment purposes?
What a jerk! I’d be interested in knowing how many of his “success” stories actually lasted. And to me, he sounded like someone with many red flags to watch out for
I found a couple good studies some time ago that had the similar results of therapists saying that of the marriages they counseled that survived the adultery, only 25 percent survived after five years.
And assuming that is close; we know that of those that survived, likely very few are anything but two miserable folks in a marriage of convenience. My guess is in most of the surviving marriages one of them (usually woman) is just getting through life while the man is doing whatever the hell he wants.
Yes, I said that. Not because I think men cheat more, or are worse; but because I just think most men will leave a cheating spouse quicker than many women. No absolutes of course.
I’ve lived in the same town for 25 years and was very active in different activities for kids including religious homeschooling groups. And at this point, all of the people I’ve known whose husbands cheated are divorced with the exception of my friend who just died of cancer a few weeks ago. She knew what was going on and discussed with me what would happen if she left and divorced. Ultimately, she decided that she’d just stay and make the best of it because of her health. I really had to fight to keep my mouth shut at the funeral but noted that their adult children and their spouses kept their distance at the burial and the reception. He wasn’t around when some of the adult children and various friends including me were picking up afterwards and dividing up the reception leftovers and flowers.
“I just think most men will leave a cheating spouse quicker than many women.”
I’ve seen stats that bear that out. Your comment is spot on.
Amen on the red flags.
Before I read the post, I assumed that this interview would be with someone like Dr. Simon, someone CL thought had some wisdom and wanted us to hear. And ok, this next is probably unfair, because it’s based on his photo, but when I looked at that photo I thought, “Huh, my experience with balding men who shave their heads is that they are insecure. And what’s with that snarly lift at the edge of his mouth?” I looked at him, and I didn’t trust him, and I thought he just didn’t look like he’d have views like CL’s.
Lo and behold, he doesn’t.
My son started balding at 16 and is now only 20 and has a bald spot on top and severe hairline recession. It has absolutely shattered his confidence and made him insecure. I think many balding men, especially young men, are insecure, whether they shave it all off or not. Many say balding is no reason to be insecure, but try telling that to a balding teenager.
Or any youngish man who is balding, for that matter…
I never thought about the shaving of head angle for balding men.
But, my H has the traditional grandpa hair, bald on the top and hair around the sides. I have always loved it. He never shaved it all off, he still at 83 jokes about hanging on to every hair he has.
I cut his hair now, and he still has the bald on top and hair on the sides, I just keep it clean and neat.
The most benign interpretation of this shitshow (through no fault of Tracy’s or Sarah’s) that I can come up with is this:
Look how far we’ve come in 40 years toward gender equality.
Andrew got his start 40 years ago. He hasn’t changed his approach since.
The whole “deep conversations, do the work, listen to women’s pain” shtick might have played better back then than it does today.
40 years ago: husband and wife go see Andrew because husband cheated. Wife gets placated by platitudes, husband gets better at hiding his cheating. Marriage is “saved”, Andrew gets paid.
Today: Leave A Cheater, Gain A Life.
Andrew is a fossilized dinosaur.
I’m 9 years out from Dday and a 30-year litigator and yet I’m triggered deeply by the description of this asshole’s “life’s work.” If he cared about Chumps at all, he’d pivot to helping us get away from our abusers. He is capitalizing on our suffering and desperation. I find that despicable. No deep conversations with abusers can change them. Narcissists and psychopaths are born that way, live that way, and will die that way. The only rational choice once the mask slips is to get away from them, permanently.
I had to leave halfway through so I will finish this evening. What I did notice right away is that he is used to being in charge and he does not like the fact that two women have real strong opinions and they’re probably right. He is going to say his little put downs in a calm voice, but they are still put downs, and he is still a whiner.
I was just fascinated by the way he was so horrified by Tracy. And her completely justified anger. What happens in his therapy sessions when a chump gets angry?
None of these guys can handle womens anger. Has any else noticed how quick men shut down womens anger? It is a ”no go” for these weenies. WTF? We are not allowed to be pissed. So, what are they expecting? Flowers and candy? Trust they suck!!
That struck me too. My attorney chided me early on for not being angry, saying, “I need you to join me in my outrage so I can get this done for you!”
After that, I worked hard to say that certain things made me angry, and he liked that. I had a right to be ANGRY. Got it. When I emailed him one morning that I was irrationally angry at how long this had been going on, he emailed back, “Time to threaten a trial?” YES. He elaborated a bit, and my ex signed it the next day.
I haven’t been afraid of anger since. How un-ladylike!
Yep. He seems all for allowing the cheater their anger and for the betrayed to forgive that; but not the chumps anger.
Another Timid Forest Creature. Well done both for getting him on the ropes pretty early on. He is so flaming condescending and also not able to even validate your and everyone on this sites experiences. God help anyone who ends up being sent his way.
Lord Voldemort wants to explain healthy relationships to you.
Best response of the day, Nomar.
This guy was hard to listen to. So evasive, so smarmy. He reminded me of a couple folks in my professional life that I’m also glad are long gone…
Just to hone in on one aspect, out of many, is how he twisted around the post-nup line of questioning. Instead of deferring to another profession (lawyers, accountants, clerks, etc), he twisted it back on her about that thought being pain driven. Bull. At the very least acknowledge that the desire to seek self protection, through well-established professions, is more than above board.
Wow. That was hard to stomach. He doesn’t want to promote “anger,” he wants to promote his book and therapy so he can line his pockets. I turned to jackasses like him at the end of my marriage. That was a waste of money and time. That’s probably part of the reason I’m still angry. I’ve read better more solid advice on Chump Lady than I ever got from idiots like him.
I so agree, NAWSbrat. This blog is good therapy. The rest of the healing work I did myself. I’m glad I did that instead of wasting money on a therapist. You can learn the techniques yourself and get a good result.
Agree. I am so glad there was no money for me to go to therapy; God knows what they would have done to me.
I did go to a six week group session on moving on after a divorce, and that did help me a lot. But it was focused on how to move on and work on your own life and let the ass wipe go.
After listening to the interview all I can say is Andrew is an oxygen thief! He offers nothing.
His critical thinking skills are as suspect as his therapeutic approach. He clearly is deceptive about the “spectrum of infidelity” and his success at helping couples achieve true communication. He is minimizing the harm of both emotional and physical affairs and justifies this by being available for those “ready to do the real work”. But he wasn’t familiar with the concept or purpose of a post-nup?
When first responders come across a victim of willful neglect, abuse or assault, there is no shared conversation. There’s first aid, documentation, protection and on-going treatment. And mechanisms for justice.
Any first world country or society knows the concept of post-nup. They may use different terms or processes but the concept is known. He shudders and obfuscates to change the subject.
It is kind of like temporary separations in the US, most states have them, they just call them something different, and they vary a bit in what they cover. It is just a legal way to protect yourself.
Money, money, money. If he acknowledges anything you say is correct, good, and healthy. He will lose his shirt.
I am only interested in hearing about this from people who have been cheated on and people who have never cheated and are outspoken against it. Otherwise, I am not interested in anything anyone has to say on the subject no matter what the academic credentials or years practicing in their profession. That’s where he lost me, which was right at the beginning.
There were many places along the way where he lost me, but telling Tracy she was angry, instead of asking her, when it seemed to me that he was the one feeling angry, when she was just asking questions, was another memorable place where my ears went way back.
I have found the podcast to be invaluable
when I wake up terrified at 3am. Listening to it is an excellent way to calm the storm in my head and ease the sick feeling in my solar plexus. I am looking forward to more episodes and wish this had been done a long time ago!
It’s not just a podcast; it’s medicine for infidelity.
I am only interested in hearing about this from people who have been cheated on and people who have never cheated and are outspoken against it. Otherwise, I am not interested in anything anyone has to say on the subject no matter what the academic credentials or years practicing in their profession. That’s where he lost me, which was right at the beginning.
There were many places along the way where he lost me, but telling Tracy she was angry, instead of asking her, when it seemed to me that he was the one feeling angry, when she was just asking questions, was another memorable place where my ears went way back.
I have found the podcast to be invaluable
when I wake up terrified at 3am. Listening to it is an excellent way to calm the storm in my head and ease the sick feeling in my solar plexus. I am looking forward to more episodes and wish this had been done a long time ago!
It’s not just a podcast; it’s medicine for infidelity.
You were so polite! I found it odd that he knew nothing about you. It was clear he thought you so inconsequential he didn’t even waste his precious time researching you. Isn’t that standard fare when you’re going on a program to discuss a topic with someone? A bit of background, an anticipation of what the squeeze points might be? He really, really assumed you were very recently divorced and angry. It made him sound stupid and even at the end of the program when you revealed more, he only switched up to a sugary sweet polite response with no substance.
Also, his insistence that you would not allow him to talk…….he absolutely monopolized the whole program and refused to let you talk! The schooled you on how important he was. He would let Sarah butt in occasionally. But, he clearly wanted you to know you were not qualified in this important subject just because you’d been jilted.
I also kept wondering just how much these deep conversations for three months in his office cost. It was sold as a requirement to be a good human being; to exhaust absolutely every possibility. I think chumps, in general, are these type of people who cannot walk away until we know we have done 110%. We are easy prey for those wanting to make good money off that. And he had no idea what happened after the three months. I noticed that sharply. He did not follow up to find out his success rates with his clients/marks. There’s a reason for that.
I’m glad he didn’t Google me. But maybe he did and thus the “anger”? In 2014 I said he looked like Voldemort with British dentistry. (It was in reaction to the “apologize to your cheater” article.) Which is unsporting, to make fun of his appearance, when his arguments are so atrocious.
He’s the Very Important Person, don’t you know? These others are peons. How dare they question him?
“I think chumps, in general, are these type of people who cannot walk away until we know we have done 110%.”
This exactly. Although, I never once called my fw or asked him to come back after he left. I was open to him coming back when he called me. I shouldn’t have been because all he did was shit all over me again. Good news is, I only put up with it for a few days.
Reality is, I should have been counselled to walk away and never look back. Thanks to CL/CN so many new chumps now can get away faster and understand exactly what they are dealing with.
In all fairness my preacher did tell me “you need to get mad”. But it took me a while before I got there. About three months.
“I think chumps, in general, are these type of people who cannot walk away until we know we have done 110%. We are easy prey for those wanting to make good money off that.”
True. That’s his market.
Why does anger get such a bad wrap? And who says anger should go away? and discussing how infidelity makes you angry, brings it back is bad? This from a few days ago with some edit: “ start looking at your anger as a friend or maybe a really protective junkyard, dog that guards the perimeter of your soul. You were groomed to expect abuse from men. Did the groomers know they were doing that-probably not doesn’t matter-you resisted that narrative, which makes you a strong woman. A person of integrity who knows her worth. Someone to be proud of you are mighty.” A “therapist” ought to be able to handle anger..isn’t that why people go to them mostly because they are mad about something. If any healing occurs it has to begin with feeling and expressing anger. Infidelity, betrayal, cheating, lying are of the worst human behaviors only surpassed by rape and murder. Of course we chumps are angry. If you haven’t experienced it, you can’t feel it in your bones. Hugs!
YESYESYESYES!!!
If you can’t get angry when your spouse is f***ing some other person, what CAN you get angry about?
Just show me scientific evidence that cheating makes at least a proportion of marriages stronger, how is this achieved and how many marriages are stronger as a consequence of cheating.
Otherwise, I’d rather work on a connection, my communication skills, vulnerability or whatever and achieve relationship enlightenment on luxury couple’s holidays on Bora Bora than after my partner’s cheating.
Do Esther Perel next!
He certainly has that awkward guy who can’t get laid look about him. I suspect he projects his anger onto others. He does come off as condescending and misogynistic.
He has 19 self help books out. One if them is titled the classic, FW favorite ILYBINILWY. 😄
Nobody with genuine, original insight to offer can write 19 books on the same subject, because if they’re authentic, they don’t want to be redundant. I suspect these are 19 titles for more or less the same book, the central theme being that the abused have a duty to fix the abuser. I’m not going to peruse his oeuvre to find out for sure. My eyeballs might die of boredom.
I know I’m an outlier on this blog (male-chump in my fifties) but I do love the new podcast. As soon as Mr. Marshall wouldn’t say if he had ever experienced infidelity in his personal life, I knew this interview was doomed. This is why I refuse to go to marriage/couples counseling again. Just like the marital expert in my case, Mr. Marshall, blatantly lied during the interview, was evasive and feinted being attacked by Tracey and then tried the fake — Dale Carnegie-like empathy to throw you off. (I loved the “I am very sorry you experienced that pain” comment.)
What a bunch of bullshit. Notice how he perked up when you let him shill his “three books” or horseshit website and podcast. Fuck that triggering bullshit and that dude.
Not sure you’re as much of an outlier as you may think (raising hand here). Welcome to the brotherhood, one 50-sh male chump to another.
He should frankly be rather embarrassed by his utter inability to answer a question. His mind went blank? When asked what is “mild” cheating, he mentions the severe situations (such as CL’s) but never actually gives a “mild” example? He “feels personally attacked”? Wait, why is a therapist feeling attacked? AREN’T WE SUPPOSED TO GO DEEPER? ASK THE HARD QUESTIONS? DO THE WORK? He needs to go deeper on why he had so much trouble with this interview and took it so personally. And utterly dismissing the dangers that chumps face was criminal. Our health, our money, our SANITY. I nearly died.
Sarah, you are a champion. How did you stay so sweet? (Ah yes, your years of professional experience, which really showed, unlike Andrew’s.)
Far from being a small subset, I think the experiences of people here are experiences of the MAJORITY of chumps. Not just here, but on Twitter as well. So many women being abused, lied to, cheated on, dumped. Just story after story after story. If I ever post something about having been abused or cheated on, I get so many people saying “the same thing happened to me”. I think Andrew is dealing with anomalies. The rare (rare) few who actually want help. And I’d wager half of those cheaters are just trying to avoid consequences (as Tracy pointed out).
LOVE the “fact check break”! It made me laugh. Go get ’em girls.
Tracy, you’re actually becoming revolutionary with your work. You are tackling the patriarchy head-on and it has nothing on your message of truth and the realities of millions of chumps. Please keep it up!!!
One of the things this blog helped me realize is that people do exactly what they want to do – no more, no less.
I have to own it too. For instance, at times I may be laying in bed because I’m depressed, but at that moment, laying in bed is the way I’m choosing to deal with it. That’s the action I’ve decided to take. Other people may choose to drink, or overeat, or meditate, or read self help books. But it’s a choice, it’s always a choice.
This guy wants to absolve cheaters of their autonomy of choice, and I’ll never buy it.
I am always looking forward to these podcasts, great work, thank you! But Andrew made this one very difficult to listen to. He chose to be aggressive throughout the podcast just because CL was asking some important questions. He was like a parent who was getting angry with his child. Not a type of behavior you would expect from an adult. Can we not have discussions? Do we have to concur everything he says? I am not even mentioning that he was talking with two women. Zero gentlemenlike behavior, and full negativity.
He claims CL’s data is different from his, how? Chump Nation is one hell of a data. It reflects all sorts of cheaters. Andrew claims that there is a spectrum in cheating. Does it change the fact that all cheaters feel entitled and they are manipulative? Most cheaters go to the therapy to continue eating cake and to continue to deceive the betrayed. So Andrew thinks such characters are rational and thrustworthy and the betrayed should invest more while being abused further?
Eleven minutes in and have to stop because my blood pressure is dangerously high. What a condescending prick. I am so sorry you both had to talk to this asshole.
“Yet, he keeps returning time and time again to magic power of deep conversations.”
These were what I did with x – I really felt like we connected and bonded and allowed expression without interruption. Some of these went on for hours.
In the end, it was all bullshit on his part. Lying in order to keep using.
I was dumb. Gullible. Trusting someone who had never earned my trust.
Good reminder about what absolute fukks these frauds are.
Andrew doesn’t know shit.
Loch, you were not dumb or gullible. ‘Communication problems’ was another thing Andrew kept bringing up and I am going to have to kind of agree with him on that one. Had my FW clearly communicated with me like “Hey, so I found this woman who is a complete piece of garbage, just like me. Her level of dysfunction is a perfect match for my dysfunction and we are perfect for each other. You can stick around to witness some next level narcissism, and me lying and gaslighting you or we can just part ways now to save you time and mindf*ckery.”
Sadly, I cannot upvote your post more than once. But I would if I could.
And now, I have spewed coffee all over my laptop. That post should have had a beverage alert.
What % of those magical deep conversations is about the cheater and untangling the skein of fuckedupedness? (almost 100%?)
What % of those magical deep conversations is about the chump’s need to protect him/herself from chronic dishonesty, manipulation, and abusive behavior (or convincing them that they don’t actually need any protection at all? (almost 0?)
Sounds to me as though a cheater narc would delight in this type of therapy. Cheater is the center of attention, chump is once again called upon to understand. ALWAYS understand. “And pay my assistant on your way out, please.”
My mother had many deep, meaningful conversations (non-cheating related) with my father over the years. If I think back, they’re mostly monologues, with my father nodding and humming here and now. They didn’t help all because you can’t reason with a narcissist, they only find out what hurts you (to do it again) and enjoy your pain. I’m allergic to ‘deep conversations’.
From the biography section of this guy’s website: “I trained with RELATE—the UK’s leading couple-counselling charity, but have developed my own method which blends psycho-dynamic counselling (which looks at your past and how it affects today) with systemic counselling (which focuses on how your relationship works today and what would improve matters). I lead a team of three therapists in London offering the Marshall Method and have plans to extend the service to other parts of the country.” I couldn’t find anything else about his educational background. How does anyone trust this guy as a therapist? Oh, gee, maybe the answer is here: “The Guardian has described my work as “wonderfully comforting” and “I feel light headed and giggly…as if someone has just made sense of me”. My translation: I tell people, especially cheaters, what they want to hear. What a healer. I cannot wait until my workday ends so I can listen to the podcast.
Anyone who disregards people for being angry after being cheated, going through deceit and gaslighting is an absolute moron. I can’t believe this guy is a certified therapist.
And per Sunrise Ruby’s comment above yours, it doesn’t sound as if he IS a certified therapist.
From what I’ve seen counseling can cause more harm than good. Finding a decent one is like finding a needle in a haystack. Normally the marriage isn’t broken it’s the wayward.
There are a lot of save your marriage schemes. Usually it entails doing the “pick me dance” with some trying to nice them back thrown in. Which never works. All these things do is keep the betrayed in limbo.
They tend to be snake oil salespeople. Betrayed people tend to grasp at straws. Looking for a magic fix. There isn’t one.
Sadly all that’s accomplished is contributing to the counselors kids college funds.
Repeated infidelity is not uncommon.