How Quickly Did You Fall Out of Love After D-Day?

fall out of love

Did you quickly fall out of love after D-Day? Or was it a slow, agonizing detachment? Was there a moment that broke things irrevocably? Falling out of love is the Friday Challenge.

***

Dear Chump Lady,

How about a post about how fast you fell out of love with your FW?

Someone in the comments recently mentioned someone falling out of love with their cheater in the time it took the copy of the incriminating email to fall from her hand to the floor.

That was my experience, too. 34 years married, 2 kids, up until D Day I loved him, thought he was a great guy, trusted him completely.

But then: Years. Strippers, plural. At least one younger than our daughter. A whole bunch of money.

That day, D-Day, after telling me all this, he said: “I know you love me. I know you won’t leave me.”

Talk about flapping something red in front of a bull. (“Oh, yeah? Watch me.”)

And my feelings haven’t changed. I don’t love him.

I don’t miss him. In fact, I only think about him in the context of: “How could he be such an idiot? Is he capable of anything crazy? Is he scheming? Or, is he hiding money?” (I’m early in the divorce process.)

A cousin who was cheated on in two marriages said he realized that what he missed wasn’t the person, it was the life he had built with them. (He never refers to his ex-wives by their names; they are just “the first X” and “the second X.”)

I do sometimes wonder, though, if my feelings are defective that they could turn on a dime like that.

Other people take much longer, and that’s interesting, too. 

I tried out an S-Anon meeting recently. Not for me. The people running it were so nice, but they were still with their FWs, going to these meetings for years and even decades. No, thank you. Also, they use the same 12 steps the addicts do: take a fearless inventory of your faults (“I was too trusting?”), make amends to the people you hurt. (Um, what?).

Just a thought. 🙂

Chumplet

***

Dear Chumplet,

Your Friday Challenge wish is my command. I think we all snap out from under the spell differently, and it probably says less about the depth of our love than the depth of our dysfunction or sunk costs. There are so many cultural messages to stay, so much financial pressure and fear. And chumps are usually battling their own values and internal scripts. “I’m not a quitter” or “I can fix this.”

To arrive at “I do not love you any more” is a choice.

To live differently, to save yourself and put your own well-being first.

Well, Tracy, don’t cheaters say all the time they just “fell out of love” with you?

They aren’t responding to abuse. (I know they cast it that way after the fact.) Most of them are not communicating this dissatisfaction, or working on the relationship, before they cast about. I’d argue that anyone capable of a sustained double life (aka “strippers”) never loved you at all. You were just of use to them.

Maybe you fell out of love quickly, because it had been dying on the vine for a long time and D-Day was the catalyst you needed to leave. But because you were a committed person, you never would’ve given yourself that permission before.

As for S-Anon reconciliation in church basements, that’s some of the saddest hopium out there. I’m glad you’re free.

So, CN when and how did you fall out of love with your FW?

TGIF!

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bookrat
bookrat
2 months ago

After d-day 1? I was still in love. I was in love so much that I tried everything to save the marriage. I took all the blame, tried to fix myself, had so much sex…

Three years later, d-day 2 was on the rise. I was getting tired of being treated like shit all the time. I was suspicious, but couldn’t find evidence. Then, one day, “I love you, but I’m not in love with you” came out. I discovered the affair the next day. I was still in love, still held the family together as much as I could, even as I filed for divorce. Still cried every night as I was left alone with the kids so they could go out together. Every. God. Damned. Night.

I was still blamed. My ex blamed me. My in laws blamed me. Even my parents blamed me. My mom would tell me everyday to keep the marriage together, to cancel the divorce. It was sooo hard.

After about two months, I discovered LACGAL. And that’s when the anger set in. That’s when I started standing up for myself, against everyone.

It’s been one year. The divorce is almost done – literally just waiting on the judge. I’m single and I’m happy. I’m hurt, but I’m healing. My primary goal with the divorce was to keep the kids in their school, and because my ex moved out of district, it meant I was forced to stay. So I made some sacrifices and did what I could to keep the marital home – and now I’m the mom who got the kids to keep their bedrooms. I’m the one who let them keep their home, their school, their friends.

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago
Reply to  bookrat

Way to be mighty! And one day you will get to Meh. It takes time and that time is different for all of us, but that’s okay. Just be good to yourself…you deserve it! Know that you deserve to be treated well by others AND yourself!

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago
Reply to  bookrat

I’m so sorry the people around you were not supportive. Even your mom! But you are mighty.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago
Reply to  bookrat

I think trying to muster any love for someone who would upend our (their!) kids’ lives is a lost cause. After having to sell my marital home, I found a cozy apartment and then managed to purchase a townhome a few years later. To the capacity of my power, I am not planning on upending my daughter’s life any time soon, which is more than I can say for the FW monkey-brancher. Hard to love people who have demonstrated such a lack of love, and who only consider themselves.

FYI_
FYI_
2 months ago
Reply to  bookrat

This is mega-mighty! 💪🏽

charmee
charmee
2 months ago

I hung in for about 5 years hoping the midlife crisis would blow on by. There were really 2 incidences that sealed the deal for me. When I went in his man cave while he was super scrolling through the sports channels and once again was going to try and talk about our state of affairs, no pun intended he looked at me and said “if you think I am going to tell you I love you, I’m not”, and the second arrow was “write me a cheque for a thousand bucks or its divorce” and my reply was “I’ll take the divorce”. Never looked back. I had been married 30 years, 2 grown sons, house paid for, retired, easy street or so I thought.

Last edited 2 months ago by charmee
unicornomore
unicornomore
2 months ago

OOOH…I feel special, think it was my comment about dropping the paper to the floor. That was the moment when the last shred of love for him which I had locked away in my heart truly died.

The whole experience was lengthy and complex and I was the reason it was lengthy and complex…he showed me that he didnt love me in hundreds of ways in thousands of instances and he had been dead for about 2 years, but finding what I found – which indicated a giant swath of lies – was it.

It was a strange conversation with my then-fiance …telling him what I had found and how I felt. I have never told my kids and I likely wont ever.

I dont think that anyone should try to follow in my footsteps…Im not sure I am a very good exemplar of the ideal way to cope with this. I do hope, though that my experience might help someone identify in themselves when that change has happened.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago

It took me months, which felt like years. At first I was in shock and open to working through it, but over time and with evidence of a lack of change (or even desire to change) on his part, it was clear this person did not care one iota about me or our daughter and what he was doing to her, so it was what felt like a slow, nauseating backslide out of love. I was clouded by cognitive dissonance the whole time and it was really ultimately my gut telling me you can’t continue this way or love this person who did this horrible, prolonged thing to you (cheating as a “mistake”, my ass – this man lied from the jump). Over these months, I found that it was harder to talk to him or even look at him, to the point where he made a comment about this out loud…and to which I responded that we needed to get a divorce. By the time I came to this conclusion, it was done. I’ve never looked back. The person I loved did not actually ever exist. On top of that, he proved himself to be an enemy, and a much more insidious one at that by having married me to do what he did, like some fucked up Trojan horse. He weaponized the idea of love and I am still trying to mentally and emotionally repair from that over eight years later.

Last edited 2 months ago by ChumpOnIt
Archer
Archer
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

Yes my life became my own movie titled Sleeping with the Enemy during the false reconciliation. I call him Narcopath for obvious reasons. Nearly 3 decades of lying and gaslighting which was entirely avoidable if he hadn’t been hell bent on deceiving and using me

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

“The person I loved did not actually ever exist”.

Boy, you said it! And isn’t that the truth of it? I felt the same way after I “woke up”. I was also trying to get the shared fantasy back, the love of my life, the perfect marriage, etc. The FW’s rip our world out from under us and then have the gall to ask, “what is your problem? It was just a little mistake or I was just having some fun” ( or mine: it was a game, it had nothing to do with you.)

We chumps are in love with who we thought our person was, the image, the mask they always wore that portrayed who they wanted everyone, including us, to think they were. They are not REAL! These are phony FW’s that parade around as real people when they are just disordered illusions of people. Watch Prof. Sam Vaknin on YouTube if you want to know more about people like this.

This is why it comes as such a shock to us all. We thought THEY were real and therefore we thought our LIFE was real. Turns out…not so much. FAKE. All fake.

new here old chump
new here old chump
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

 “The person I loved did not actually ever exist. On top of that, he proved himself to be an enemy, and a much more insidious one at that by having married me to do what he did, like some fucked up Trojan horse. He weaponized the idea of love and I am still trying to mentally and emotionally repair from that over eight years later.” This is me- all the years later, still horrified and not totally repaired but Free! Not in love, but still haunted.

Archer
Archer
2 months ago

Insidious is a great word for narcopath. It took so much time energy and money to conduct a secret double life for decade(s)and it wasn’t necessary at all! IMHO only someone reptilian and subhuman could do it

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago

Trojan Horse! What a perfect way to explain it!

Sorry you are still damaged and hurting from this. We are all that way here to some degree, forever changed. Just take care of yourself and do your best. No one can expect more when you’ve been through narcissistic (and other disordered/sick person) abuse. hugs!

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago

Love this challenge! My D-Day was about 6 months ago and involved discovering my ex Fuckwit’s multiple affairs, hookups, snd hooker habit (he brought them into our home and bed). My love for him (i’d invested 6 years of my life in a shit charade) died instantly as I quickly realized I had loved a mirage—a shell.

Part of me thought i must be cold to have such a sudden and deep change of heart but it was more an awakening: gradual (before D-day i had some suspicions), then had the SUDDEN and UNSTOPPABLE realization that I’d been duped and he’d DELIGHTED IN DUPING ME. I felt shock, rage, grief but also CLARITY—the FOG LIFTED almost immediately. This blog and community helped me understand what had happened. I tried to untangle the skein for a bit but mostly have been regrouping rebuilding my life and have—to my surprise and delight—never felt better.

I used to miss the life i thought WE HAD but no longer do bc I see it was fake. What’s real is me and the life I have now, which is so much better now. I have the odd moment of loneliness but mostly I feel at peace. I am building more friendships, embracing my hobbies, and enjoying myself. I am even going on a date next week and feel cautiously optimistic about life.

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

Thank you for this. Yes, I sometimes feel something is wrong with me to have 34 years of love to go “poof” in an instant. But no. It’s just finally seeing the mirage for what it always was.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

You wrote: “Part of me thought i must be cold to have such a sudden and deep change of heart.”

For what it’s worth, I wrote about this in my long-assed comment today– the alarm some feel about that sudden change of heart, as if this reflected negatively on their capacity for love while, in fact, it might simply be that the spell of Stockholm syndrome broke once the abuser became more explicit in the abuse and control they’d engaged in all along and also withdraw the love-bombing portion of it.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago

Exactly: the spell gets broken! That’s why my mental fog cleared almost instantly. Many physical symptoms i’d been suffering from resolved as well. The D-day, in hindsight, was a gift as it freed me and returned my life to me.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

Abusive people, because they’re not particularly reflective or insightful and probably don’t understand history, don’t seem to grasp that, when they start watering down the gruel too much (withdrawing the love bombing/positive reinforcement or just diluting it by spreading it between primary partners and affair partners), it’s inevitable that the slaves will revolt.

Malcolm X was referring to this in his “house slave/field slave” analogy. Field slaves were far more likely to organize and rebel because they got fewer of the numbing little crumbs of positive reinforcement compared to house slaves who’d often been spellbound into seeming loyalty (while the brutal treatment of field slaves was still a potent “heads on pikes” negative reinforcement warning of what happens to rebels). But if the “balance” of Pavlovian reward/punishment starts to shift towards punishment, the tendency to revolt increases.

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
dracaena
dracaena
2 months ago

Immediately. Precipitously. Irrevocably.

My fw was fucking up for a long time before I discovered the affair, and days before discovery, I was obsessively watching documentaries about Chris Watts and feeling like something really, really bad was about to happen. That smoking gun was the one final piece of evidence I needed to fully see what kind of person I was dealing with, and I’m so glad I found it. It was sheer luck, too; I didn’t go looking for it, it literally fell in my lap.

I still grieve the person I thought I was married to, and the life I thought I had. It was a beautiful fantasy. Better to live in reality, though.

Edit: Speaking of grieving someone who never existed… it’s fucked up, right? Tell me I’m not the only one? When you go through an honest loss or breakup, you still get to keep the memories, but when you unmask a fraud, you don’t even get that.

Last edited 2 months ago by dracaena
Archer
Archer
2 months ago
Reply to  dracaena

I wasn’t far from joining Shannon Watts so curious about this documentary!

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago
Reply to  dracaena

That’s my biggest hang up, the grief. I too, still grieve deeply the person whom I loved and was married to and for the life I thought we/I had. I thought we had a good, not perfect, but good and solid relationship. Man did he prove me wrong in the most disgusting and hurtful way possible.

But I miss “him” the guy I thought he was. And to this day, I HATE the one he proved to be. I know after all this time I shouldn’t be having feelings of any sort about him, even hate, but man…I just loath who he revealed himself to truly be. Not even close to a good person. He sucks! And I never wanted to look at him the way I do now and will forever will. Makes me sad, still to this day that he forced me to see him that way, the “real” him.

Bluewren
Bluewren
2 months ago
Reply to  dracaena

You are in good company- it’s worse than death and something most will never understand.
We’re with you and get it.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  dracaena

It’s a weird and hard grief (a consequence of a deep manipulation/ mindfuck) when what/who you loved did not exist. But i have tried to honor it anyway and let myself feel it. I had to mourn that this person i loved never existed but my feelings for him did—they were real.
I have deleted the pics of him but kept the ones of me because i was real even though he wasnt. Hard to wrap my mind around it still. So i limit my rumination.

Archer
Archer
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

Somewhere here I read that our own participation, love, lives were real even if we were being duped at the time. MY life was real and authentic so I mentally delete him from my memories mostly.
Nowadays when describing a trip or experience I deliberately say “I visited xyz” instead of “we visited” as part of this exercise.

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

That is profound – “I had to mourn that this person I loved never existed by my feelings for him did.”

A good way to look at it. I think that is why it is so painful to have that ripped away from us. Our feelings were real, but for them, nothing…crickets. Because it was not real to them and they don’t give a shit. They don’t have feelings. You have to be real to have real feelings.

Limiting rumination is also a good tip.

new here old chump
new here old chump
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

Any tricks to limiting your rumination? I have therapist. I’ve made progress! And my obsessiveness is also a great attribute to my work- but not in getting over my horrific “marriage” which was more an arrangement of sorts for him…

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago

I also have a problem with rumination and the only thing I try to do is just catch myself and say it, even out loud, “Ruminating, stop it!” I try to redirect my thoughts. Doesn’t always work, but sometimes it does. I just keep trying and reminding myself that I didn’t do anything to deserve it and remember what a POS HE was/is.

Not sure that helps, but wanted to share.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago

Sigh…it is hard but for me immersing myself in it to start helped and then i have gradually become less focused on it. I first read about and wrote about it and tried to understand who/what this creature was/is and what they did to me and how it affected me. try to find a good coach and/or therapist. I found a therapist who understands cheaters and liars and sociopathy/psychopathy. Interview them first or try a session and make sure they will not blame YOU.

I also found a coach who had been victimized by one of these Fuckwit scammers so she understood it well. I also listened to Tracy’s podcast plus others who explain personality disorders and the dark triad/tetrad.

Also physical exercise and movement (whatever feels good to you), getting outdoors, getting sleep (i took pills short-term), talking to the right friends (i no longer like talking about it but needed to for a while), and reading my old journals and writing new ones.

Finding and spending time on hobbies i love pulls my focus away from this darkness. So gradually it takes up less of my being. That said, i still have dreams about him almost nightly, which suggests i am still processing the experience. And i accept that and try not to worry. Above all i try to be kind to myself and allow a little rumination but then gently nudge myself to other thoughts “ok, that’s good for now. Let’s move to something else.” No shaming myself about it because we are/were victims of EPIC BETRAYALS so moving on takes TIME, ENERGY AND MOJO.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago
Reply to  dracaena

I agree. I know people whose (non-cheater) spouses had died. It’s not the Pain Olympics, as CL says, but there seems to be something about being able to remember them with a sense of love and warmth. Trying to do that in this situation is basically trying to wrap your arms around a phantom. Poof – never existed.

dracaena
dracaena
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

Normal people, who are able to bond with others, experience loved ones as an ongoing, reassuring presence when they’re not around. I suppose that’s why it hurts so much to be robbed of that presence. I imagine it hurts just as much when you discover the secret double life long after they’ve gone.

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago
Reply to  dracaena

You certainly don’t get the benefit of confronting them, asking them WTF? Explain this! But nothing explains or excuses that behavior, so maybe it’s all for not. But I would want to confront them. I would be extra mad about not being able to do that. Just want to hear what they would say.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago
Reply to  dracaena

I meant to add that these particular deaths I was thinking of were untimely – sudden or cancer earlier in life…that kind of thing. The surprise element was still there, but these were good, loving people. That is something you keep with you even when they’re no longer around, like you said. I imagine that discovering a double life after they’re gone would be like going through a second death and grief cycle. Going through this is already a complete conundrum that someone who never existed is still walking around – not unlike experiencing a death, minus the warmth of their memory.

unicornomore
unicornomore
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

It was really awkward when (soon after cheater died) I was contacted by 2 or 3 other widows whose late-husbands had gone to college with Cheater and they were all the “he loved me to the end” sorts.

In a very strange way, not knowing the full breadth of his treachery at the time of his death, my grief was very real and (now in retrospect) Im glad I was grief-stricken because it kept me in the same emotional space as my kids and I think they needed that.

My brain fries whenever I try to discern what was real and what wasn’t. For a few years, I was like “It was all crap, all of it”. Lately, I have had a memory or 2 of pleasant moments and I dont quite know what to do with them. My first reaction is “if we could be that happy and you still what you did, then it did all really suck”.

It’s interesting how we all have different dealbreaker moments (and Im not saying my definitions are more valid than anyone else’s). When I read about Cheaters using sex workers, my brain explodes. The potential disease exposure, squandering of marital funds and the fact that there was no emotional connection luring them in all just blows my mind. The fact he thought he was “in lurve ” at least makes it emotionally directed (even if it was wrong and misguided) but I conjecture that if I ever learned that my partner hired a sex worker, I would drop the ax that very moment.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  unicornomore

Yeah, discovering that he’d used prostitutes was v upsetting. The risks to me but also the harm to them and the power dynamics: he is a 60 plus white guy who “dates” and marries white women his age while hiring sex workers of color who are younger than his daughters. The gender and racial power dynamics of this are mind boggling.

PeaceAtLast
PeaceAtLast
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

My cheater cheated with prostitutes also – addicted to Asian Massage Parlors. It is an extra level of depravity. Exploitation of women, exposure to disease, missing money to pay for it all. Nothing to love about any of that.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceAtLast

Major ick! Behind their facade, they are transactional entities so paying for sex makes sense since they can’t understand love, bonding, commitment, etc.

unicornomore
unicornomore
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

It is remarkably decent of you to take the effort to recognize that the sex workers are victims also. There is a huge racial / power/ money dynamic that weakens the victim and gives power to the abuser.

new here old chump
new here old chump
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

A friend of my mother’s thought the death her first husband was the worst thing in the world until her son’s awful divorce with a liar. She said like it was a secret- divorce is worse than her first husband getting hit by a car while on his bike and dying when she had a 3 and 1 year old. So. Yes.

nancytymensky@gmail.com
nancytymensky@gmail.com
2 months ago

I should not have been, but I felt sideswiped by the final discard.

I had an extremely agressive cheater and was attacked on multiple fronts from xh during the entire divorce process, becasue I would not follow “his line”.
He was irrational and relentless.
yet-
I still loved him. It was terrible and I hurtin certain ways for years. I knew I wouldn’t take him back after about 4 months of “pick me dancing”, but I still had hurt feelings.
Then, with the help of CN, I fell upon three thoughts I repeated over and again – when I felt emotional:

#1. He did this because….. he wanted to.
#2. It is not my fault.
#3. You can not control the moral code or descisions another person makes. Even if you could, would you want to?

Once I internalized these three statements, I felt way better about my position and the divorce. Maybe that is what people mean by “fall out of love”. That is as close as I can come to describing it.

nancytymensky@gmail.com
nancytymensky@gmail.com
2 months ago

Pardon the typos.

Rensselaer
Rensselaer
2 months ago

Ten years. I forgave myself for the first eight because I realize now that I was being gaslit by an expert manipulator. After he trickle truthed his way to admitting to the affair, the next two years were spent pleading for empathy… from a dismissive avoidant. While he pretended to want to reconcile.

I started to not keep his secret any longer. One day I was telling my story to a friend. The friend simply said, “Well, you still love each other, don’t you?” That was the moment that I realized that no, I no longer loved him. It took a while longer and more education on my part to understand that he NEVER loved me.

new here old chump
new here old chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Rensselaer

My shrink only recently – about his remarriage and new better life to a woman who has far more money than me- and I (not proud) hate that he is happy- said, “he loves money, that’s it.” And that helped. And it’s accurate. I want meh! I know it takes the time it takes, but when the rumination of self blame and loneliness blabla come on, I get irritated and sad. Mostly, I am free. It is possible that because it was 30 years, and I still have 2 sons with him- that I may never get “meh”. So, free but no meh.

iwanttobeanoval
iwanttobeanoval
2 months ago

It took me six weeks to discover the affair after he left me.

I knew I couldn’t be with him before I found out about the affair; he was being so horrible and cruel and I knew it was irreparable. It took me about a week to accept it was over, but I wouldn’t say I was completely out of love at that point.

Any love completely and utterly died two months after D-Day. Our 3-year-old son, out of nowhere, had a seizure. I got him to the hospital and texted my STBXH. When we eventually spoke on video, it was clear he was not in the UK. He didn’t apologise, didn’t say “I can’t get there, I’m abroad” or tell me when he would be back. He listened and then went back to his international vacation with his girlfriend.

I spent the next 24 hours with my son alone in the hospital, wondering if he had epilepsy. I was exhausted, worrying, and still massively struggling with everything. I felt so alone. I just remember thinking how little respect he must have for me if he couldn’t let me know he was leaving the country.

And that’s the point I dropped his family too. We hadn’t even filled for divorce, and his mom was already stepping in to babysit so he could screw his mistress in Spain. When she came to pick up my son, she asked for pajamas and a toothbrush because EX had left nothing.

I couldn’t believe this woman was helping my husband cheat on me and then expected me to provide an overnight bag. Ridiculous.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago

I think about the difference between my tolerance for his shit behavior (my fog would have gone on longer, I think) and then considering what he’s doing in reference to how it affects my kid and all semblance of love goes out the window. I’m sorry you had to go through that alone. How someone could compartmentalize their child having a SEIZURE and go back to screwing their mistress in another level of fucked up. It’s that shark mentality (or shark eyes, when you’re communicating face to face) – not on this level, but I do remember seeing it surface once everything was out in the open, and it was frightening.

iwanttobeanoval
iwanttobeanoval
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

Thank you. Luckily it was a one-off seizure and it never happened again. But it was very scary at the time.

I think it was the lack of human decency that sealed it for me. I can, to some degree, understand him falling out of love and wanting to be with someone else. I can even understand, to a degree, him going back to his holiday, as there was nothing he could do from where he was.

What I couldn’t understand is knowing that you share a child with someone and not informing them you’ll be completely unavailable in an emergency. Or to not say, when they do call you, “I’m sorry, I’m not in the UK. Do you want to see if my mum can come over so you can go home and grab some pajamas?”

I’m not surprised anymore. There have been two other instances since then where I’ve had to take our son to A&E and he didn’t show up either time despite living 15 minutes away.

We’ve now been broken up for nearly three years, and I’m pretty convinced he’s a communal narcissist and doesn’t have feelings for anyone in any real way.

Archer
Archer
2 months ago

I have the misfortune of sharing a disabled child with narcopath and he’d acted quite similarly. These FW are pondscum

Mr Wonderfuls Ex
Mr Wonderfuls Ex
2 months ago

I had 3 D-days and my response to each was different. The first one, I was absolutely shattered and broken. There was an impulse to get away but I was thousands of miles from the mainland US and had no means. I got sucked into the RIC. I was told to dance harder. I did.

Second D-day, I was 7 months pregnant. I found everything and didn’t even cry. He had been cheating on me before I was pregnant and throughout my pregnancy. I stopped loving him that day. December 6, 2014. There is a special place in hell for FWs like him. My heart was DONE. However, I still felt like I had married for life. I wasn’t going to divorce. I confronted him and he did some half-hearted attendance at sex addicts anonymous meetings. He promised to do better because we had a child to protect. In the surface, I believed him. In my soul, I didn’t.

I found LACGAL years later and I thought it made sense to line up my ducks, so I quietly did. “Maybe you fell out of love quickly, because it had been dying on the vine for a long time and D-Day was the catalyst you needed to leave. But because you were a committed person, you never would’ve given yourself that permission before.” That was when the final D-day came. And I said “F*ck this $hit.”

Divorce should – hopefully – be final 12/1/2025.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago

So glad it’s almost over. You tried, he didn’t. What is there to love? God speed, and stay mighty.

Brandon
Brandon
2 months ago

After a 16-year relationship and 9-year marriage, it’s been a slow and agonizing detachment. It’s been a year and a half since the bigger D Day about the ongoing physical affair (she admitted to an emotional affair about five months prior to that). I’d say deep, deep down I still love her. Does that mean I want her back? No. But coparenting with her for our young son just makes it harder to fully detach. Getting there and showing myself grace for the emotions that flare up from time to time. Learning proper boundaries on a monthly basis.

What I love most though is my independence. If there’s anything good with being a chump, I think it’s that feeling of independence once you get back on your two feet. It’s also made me aware of how much codependence defines many other people’s relationships around me.

Last edited 2 months ago by Brandon
KimmieD
KimmieD
2 months ago

So…unpopular opinion/stance/etc. but I’m being honest. I still have a soft spot for this awful human being. I left him four years ago and I would never ever go back to him, but he’s just so sad and pathetic that the only way I can feel is a deep sadness for him. We were married almost 30 years and have five grown kids together. It pains me that the kids only barely tolerate him (one won’t even talk to him, the others dutifully see him when he asks them repeatedly and then like…”FINE. One hour.”) because even though I know this is all his fault, it’s just so sad. So a part of me will always “love” him, but I guess not be “in love,” so I guess I did lose being “in love” with him four years ago when I left him? I know at first, I spent a year pick-me dancing, though, hoping and praying he’d change. Now I know better. When I realized he didn’t love me the way I loved him, it fundamentally changed how I felt for him for ever after. But I still wish him well.

Last edited 2 months ago by KimmieD
MrsCrumpetChump
MrsCrumpetChump
2 months ago
Reply to  KimmieD

You sound lovely. You sound like you have empathy for this person you have shared so much life with. You sound like you have come to a place of understanding and peace. Sounds awesome to me. Sounds mighty. X

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago
Reply to  KimmieD

No, it makes total sense. I think of it as neural pathways that were laid down over our 34 year marriage. Mine has always and continues to talk a good game: how much he loves me, what a wonderful marriage and life we have. I believed him for so long.

And I think he does *think* he loves me. He had an awful childhood and I and my family were a place where he was comfortable and felt loved, so he figured he loved me back. No, I was just useful to him. He sees no problem with loving me and his audacious lying to me, of loving me and think that he loves his strippers and thinking that they love him back He was much more like his parents than I realized.

Best Thing
Best Thing
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

“my family were a place where he was comfortable and felt loved”

Although very comfortable and happy to viciously devalue me after D-Day, my FW actually cried on two different occasions when it was clear that my family was through with him. I don’t quite understand this. He spent nearly 37 years all told with me every day and was just like “Welp. So that’s that. See ya.” But having people whom he had seen intermittently for 35 years, when given the option to continue their relationship with him and Mrs. Bendover, say “No, son, count us out” turned on the waterworks. Maybe it’s because it was their choice to reject him, and he had no control over them. But that explanation seems hollow. Idk…

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  Best Thing

My guess is those were crocodile tears

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

Mine also had a questionable childhood (narc abusive father, passive mother), and even in seemingly knowing this ended up reenacting the same script (except he was more passive aggressive and loved undermining/being “naughty”). My family was also a safe haven for him and he shat on it. Better to let these people flounder right the hell away from us.

damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster
damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster
2 months ago

i was confused for a few months after D-day and did some pick-me dancing that i regret now, but once X moved out of the house and i saw the way he was ignoring the kids, i instantly lost any feelings remaining.

i realized he pretended to be a husband and father for years, none of it was real, and that was a mind fuck to deal with. it still is, 5 years out. fundamentally i’m changed and there is no return to the person i was before marriage. i think that is the source of grief today, that the young woman i was once was slowly obliterated. i accept it as reality but it’s sad.

but no contact was the clarifying agent. like acid-base titration using the indicator phenolphthalein or a reaction where vitamin C is added to an iodine solution
and the solution turns clear. that’s how it felt to me.

#damnitfeelsbadtobeachumpster

Archer
Archer
2 months ago

I had a very similar experience. He’s awful with the kids and shockingly selfish that truthfully I can’t wait to hear of his early demise.

Stepbystep
Stepbystep
2 months ago

If loving means I can’t imagine finding another partner I’d feel the same about, then maybe I still love him.

But after nearly six years of no contact and practicing mindfulness, I can barely remember him as a person. I seem to have a 30 year gap which often can include other details, as well. PTSD?

The pain required as clean a break as I could muster.

It’s a complicated grief. I think the suicide of a spouse comes closest.

Best Thing
Best Thing
2 months ago
Reply to  Stepbystep

Early on, I made a conscious decision to wipe 37 years of my memory clean. The old Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind thing. And I resented that I had to do that, but figured it would ease my pain so maybe worth the trade off. But the resentment that I had to do that lingered to the point where I figured it was a bad idea. Also, it was dishonest, and if I learned to value anything due to The Recent Unpleasantness it was honesty. So I gave up the plan and learned to live with whatever the truth was. Recently I saw this from Inspirational Skeletor:

comment image

For those not inclined to copy, paste and go to, it reads “I don’t want to forget; I want to be okay with remembering.”

Thanks Skeletor

Big Sus
Big Sus
2 months ago

For me it took right at two months from the discovery of the affair to not loving my ex-wife anymore. For those two months I cried and bargained and raged at the idea that our decade-long marriage had to come to an end. I expected this to continue when the kids and I moved out at the start of the third month, but she had her affair partner move in the same day we moved out. This was such a toxic move on her part that it killed off any love I still had for her, which feels a little bit like a mixed blessing sometimes. On one hand, thinking about it has kept me from pining for her and blowing up her phone being sorry for myself or wanting to get back with her in the future. I’m as no contact as a person can be when kids are involved. I treat her like a stranger and live my own life. On the other hand, I’m left wondering how much of our time together was real if she can just move on so fast.

ChumpOnIt
ChumpOnIt
2 months ago
Reply to  Big Sus

I had screen shot evidence he was moving onto someone else (buying jewelry – not for me! – on our then-shared Amazon account) before we even had the paperwork set. I’ve seen it discussed here before that if it was real for you at the time, to some extent it was real – you experienced it that way at that time. I have had the same thoughts – he’s just monkey-branched from one female to another – and now I have enough time and distance to more or less not care. I know his MO – I was of use, he can’t be alone with who he is as a person… What do I care about his thoughts or feelings at this point? As he even self-confessed to me once, he doesn’t seem to have the ability to love. Sucks to be him.

Big Sus
Big Sus
2 months ago
Reply to  ChumpOnIt

A lot of that is likely true for my ex, also. She doesn’t want to deal with herself and as a bonus she can use him for rent/bill money. He also ruined his family for their affair and may have been homeless, which means he can’t deal with himself either and as a bonus he can use her for housing and groceries. It’s a parasitic relationship but they are both leeches, so it can’t go on very long.

And it was all real to me. I never strayed and stuck with her through everything we faced, including a previous round of infidelity on her part. That was several years ago and I didn’t know any better then, but I always believed in us until the very end. I’m sure she would say it was all real for her, but you can’t trust a cheater and a narcissist.

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago
Reply to  Big Sus

Mine did too, even as he was saying he didn’t want to be divorced. From getting kicked out to one of the strippers, from telling our (adult) kids he was staying alone at a hotel to me finding out he was spending tens of thousands of dollars at the most expensive hotel in our city with another stripper. I think they can not be alone for even a second. Sucks to be them.

horsesrcumin
horsesrcumin
2 months ago

I never have.

I mean, I’m a long termer.

We were finally over almost eight years ago. After 31 mostly truly fantastic years together. I 100% believe in LACGAL. But have never been able to completely sever the love.

I know I love(d) a mirage. My darling can never have existed. We are NC. Or exceptionally LC. Recent brief contact over one of our three adult kids’ wedding, after zero contact for the three years since most recent of our kids’ postgrad graduation.

But my heart still aches. Every day. I’ve gained a life. It’s hidden. Because it serves no purpose, and is honestly embarrassing.

I loved for life, and I have had a shit ton of therapy. It’s infuriating. But I accept the love is there. And there is no reason for it.

Mama Finn
Mama Finn
2 months ago
Reply to  horsesrcumin

Don’t be embarrassed about the love you feel. This is a reflection of YOUR character, not the FW’s. Accept that the love is there because of who YOU are, not because of any other thing. Your heart aches because YOU are of excellent character.

I was dating someone I thought I had a future with for 13 years. THIRTEEN! I found out in year 8 that he was cheating on me during the entire relationship and I STILL WENT ON WITH HIM! It’s insanity. But I left 4 years ago when I was strong enough and I have no regrets about it. I found the man I would have the future I wanted with and married him a couple of months ago. I am still in contact, occasionally, with the FW, at the knowledge of my husband (who is still friendly with all of his exes, and encourages any friendships for me). FW shows incredible remorse and regret and still “loves” me (lies? probably), and I love him. I always will. I am glad I feel the love (because it is who I am). I have still arrived at that random Tuesday of ‘meh’, but I still do feel love.

realchumped
realchumped
2 months ago

Finding this site a few months after dday helped me get over the hump. I stopped thinking of him as someone who had been f’ed up by his parents as a kid and starting thinking of him as someone with a truly terrible character.
Also AA and al-anon (smart recovery in my case) were so awful, the crazy martyrdom and hopium and self abuse were off the charts. Second only to Terrence Real’s hopium in terms of the damage it caused me and my family.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago

I kind of envy people who had the magical “Poof! Luv-be-gone!” moments as if using one of those bathtub lime removers sold on QVC.

For some chumps, I imagine that enviable “poof” moment is just the radical acceptance that the person they thought they married who appeared to have certain lovable qualities didn’t have those qualities and wasn’t who they pretended to be.

But there’s another possible explanation related to Stockholm syndrome– something you see quite often in domestic violence advocacy: survivors being amazed at how suddenly and thoroughly any love they thought they felt for their tormentors dries up.

From what I saw, this generally doesn’t happen that quickly if victims aren’t getting support from the justice system and their abusers are still at large, in the throes of a post-separation rampages and still a danger to survivors. But if the abusers in question are arrested or something else happens to sap them of whatever power they formerly wielded over their victims, victims can experience that sudden radical shift in feelings.

I remember some survivors (especially the ones who’d spent too long seeing shitty therapists who applied the “family systems/split blame” theory of domestic abuse) expressing alarm over this, as if something was wrong with their ability to love and if this sudden dearth of affection could happen regarding their feelings for their children and other blameless loved ones. So, as advocates, we’d present the reassuring possibility that what they felt for their abusers all along– or at least since the first act of abuse– wasn’t love at all but a survival-based false display of loyalty that suddenly became unnecessary the moment the abuser was de-clawed in some way– lost their power.

In other words, the second these survivors no longer had to grovel for amnesty from their abusers to inspire mercy (or the moment they realized it was pointless because abusers would escalate anyway), all former motivation to do so simply stopped. Of course some abusers are so terrifying that their victims may remain afraid of them even beyond the grave and therefore might continue this “imitation pining/faux wuv display” even after the abusers are gone. But in a lot of situations, once the danger has passed, so goes the captor bonding.

In my opinion, this isn’t a reflection on survivors capacity for real love, just a reflection of the fact that abusers aren’t lovable. I think this was a relief for a lot of survivors, especially if they’d been frog-boiled by the culture or their abusers to believe that being “perfidious” and “loveless” was precisely the thing that made them deserving of abuse.

I think this might potentially explain why a lot of FWs amp up their vicious verbal abuse while they’re cheating and also begin back-filling the whole marriage as terrible because chumps were supposedly always so “unloving.” It might be attempt to simultaneously reboot conditioning (where victims are made afraid of the consequences of their abusers perceiving victims as less than completely loyal) and reboot the fear program, all to solidify the captor bonding so victims don’t leave in the face of betrayal. In short, some survivors who find themselves stuck in the “pining” stage might consider that they’ve been conditioned to fear being perceived as “loveless.”

But I suspect that what can also break the conditioning spell is when FWs scrap the “love bombing” portion of coercive control, possibly because their affair partners are demanding exclusivity. This may be why abusers amp up the negative conditioning– to compensate for withdrawing the “positive reinforcement.” But this can backfire because victims of abuse are most likely to try to escape at the moment that the danger of staying in the relationship starts to exceed the considerable danger of leaving it.

Whatever is the case, to the extent that cheating = abuse and cheaters = abusers, chances are this “gloves off” behavior on the part of FWs during affairs is simply an escalation of coercive control that had always been there, not a sudden radical change or “switcheroo” as some perceive. Dr. Emma Katz wrote an interesting argument for Substack about how erroneous it is to assume that abusive relationships only became abusive from the first punch or obvious act of domestic violence. Instead she argues that abusers typically enact coercion and control from the get-go but often through controlling gestures that the culture brands as “love” or romance. So there is a chance that, deep in survivors’ ancient autonomic nervous system– aka, lizard brain– there was always an inkling that the abuser was an abuser, therefore the victim never really had a chance to develop genuine love in the first place. In that case, once many victims are out of danger, any feelings they once thought were love might up and disappear in a flash.

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
Best Thing
Best Thing
2 months ago

Loved this HOAC!

But I’m thinking of an alternate explanation for “I think this might potentially explain why a lot of FWs amp up their vicious verbal abuse while they’re cheating and also begin back-filling the whole marriage as terrible”. I believe Dr. D. Lusional did it to justify to himself that what he was involved in was good and right, and the reason he believed (because his narc arse had to) that “everyone supported him and was happy for him” to finally be rid of me. (Delulu, although I believed him for quite a long time.) True to form, his motivation for amping up the abuse was all about him and what everyone thought of him, and not a tactic for keeping up captor bonding, because at that point having secured a replacement, he could not have cared less if I was controlled. He just wanted me gone.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Best Thing

Yes, good points and you know your own situation best. But I always think it’s hard to know what’s true when lying liars lie to themselves most of all.

Based on Erich Fromm’s “masked dependency” theory, I always consider the possibility that one of the biggest lies abusers tell themselves and others is “who needs that stinkin’ bitch.” That weird dichotomy was presented pretty brilliantly in Peter Greenaway’s The Cook, the Thief, His Wife and Her Lover when the main villain who basically abused his wife into infertility shouts, “Who wants children anyway!” And then, a moment later, bawls, “I want children!”

So I see a lot of that end-game abuse as a kind of “protest too much” bravado where these abusers are actually trying to convince themselves more than others that the chump is “sour grapes.”

Yes, on the one hand it’s self defense and image management for cheaters to play-act at being victims of worthless ogres. But I suspect that, deep down, the need to express contempt during the discard is because they’re trying to convince themselves that they’re letting go of something not worth having– trying to talk themselves into it.

In some cases, I even think extreme contempt is a way of trying to stay out of jail in the long run since they know that if they actually see their former partners moving on, being happy and, God forbid, finding better mates, they might be driven to commit murder. This fits with research observations of the types of batterers and spouse-killers who, despite never once openly expressing jealousy of partners, are the ones who become the most explosively, gruesomely violent if partners show signs of escaping or moving on.

This might have been what happened when Chris Watts killed his pregnant wife. Even if it could have lessened his sentence, he couldn’t admit to police that it was when his wife threatened divorce that he killed her. Instead he told investigators that he was “angry” at her for getting in the way of his affair. But then why kill her when she offers to leave the marriage? It only makes sense from the masked dependency perspective. The numbnuts was so out of touch with his own emotions that it probably never occurred to him that one of the reasons he cheated in the first place was simply to get to the punch first on the secret assumption Shanann would eventually trade him in like the trash he was.

Also I wonder if the attempt at total discard often follows ultimatums by affair partners so the cheater, like a dog with two bones, knows they’re going to have to bury one of those bones and make a big show of tramping the ground on the burial site and spitting on it lest bone#2 follows through on threats.

This may be partly because the cheater has successfully managed to shift most of their infantile dependency to a new partner. But the bottom line is that I think these twisted freaks find the vulnerability involved with real intimacy so horrifically painful that they actually aspire to a kind of sociopathy and even feel victorious if they manage to “overcome” their feelings for (dependency on) a former.

Maybe it’s because they can’t own their own infantile weakness and instead paranoically blame all partners for deliberately “fostering” that dependency. In any event, I’m betting your ex will start the exact same psycho cycle in any relationship he’s in.

Elsie_
Elsie_
2 months ago

Yes, my therapist talked about this.

He had been the addict with documented mental health issues who made porn his retirement hobby and began living out his fantasies. He came from a very conservative, religious family that took a “no divorce ever” stand.

So I was confused. I had taken it over and over. The kids had grown up in utter chaos because of him. My marriage was about walking on eggshells and keeping up appearances. I was incredulous that my ex could blame me for how the marriage went down in flames.

He said that I had violated my marriage vows and that he was a victim. I was potentially dangerous and more. He told his religious family that it was a “righteous” divorce because I was a “rebel” who refused to reconcile.

Well, the attorneys figured it out. As if you could fool two family law attorneys in their 60’s who had been practicing for decades? And his family eventually figured it out.

Reportedly, he’s still blaming me. It’s what they do. Sigh.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Elsie_

Your ex’s blameshift calls to mind what gen Z’ers generally say in those situations:

Die mad, motherf*cker.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago

Brilliant analysis—i want to read Emma Katz now. You make so many compelling points that resonate with me, especially about the coercion starting before the first act of overt violence.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

Ah, thanks but the ideas come courtesy of people like Stark, Katz and Wrangham, I just put two and two together.

But, come to think of it, that makes me want to arrange an intellectual playdate between Wrangham and various coercive control experts like Katz. Imagine what that stellar think tank could come up with if they did their own 2+2.

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
2 months ago

Super interesting analysis! I think you’re onto something.

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
2 months ago

These CL words are my story, too: “Maybe you fell out of love quickly, because it had been dying on the vine for a long time and D-Day was the catalyst you needed to leave. But because you were a committed person, you never would’ve given yourself that permission before.”

The love had slowly drained away and was most noticeable after we became empty nesters more than 20 years into our 28-year marriage. But especially a few months after leaving, when reconciliation attempts were clearly not going to work because he showed no signs of owning his misdeeds and actually changing, I realized I had no more love for him.

The key moment while separated was when he sent me a letter that I call my “Game-Over” letter. Horrible blame-shifting and word salad that helped me see clearly why he had oozed hostility towards me for many years. My eyes were wide open then, and my love for this masked human shape containing lies, deception, and loathing for me – not a real man, not a real husband – could not exist anymore.

Best Thing
Best Thing
2 months ago
Reply to  OutButNotDown

Holy moly I got the same letter. I consider it my Xmas gift that year because it showed up in my email on December 23, 2020. It was the most vicious thing I had ever seen in my life. I read it and decided right at that minute to back away slowly while keeping my eyes on his hands. That was the end of the end, the point of no return. Earlier this year in therapy I told my therapist that it was so frightening that I could not bring myself to read it a second time. My therapist asked to see it so I brought it in to a session. She started reading and couldn’t finish it (to be fair it was four pages of single spaced rambling incoherence). The funny thing is 4+ years removed from the event I finally read it again and although still insanely… insane, it did not have any more power over my feelings. It was just scary, sad evidence of a man that had fallen from grace straight into his own hell.

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
2 months ago
Reply to  Best Thing

((Hugs)) Some Christmas gift!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  OutButNotDown

The poetic irony of that creepy letter being your “game over” moment is that, to your monstrous ex, it might have been a desperate last ditch effort to terrorize you back into your pumpkin shell and back into your former paralysis.

It really helped me personally to realize that a large part of DARVO attacks contain the following message: “SEE HOW NASTY I AM WHEN I PERCEIVE YOU AS LOVELESS AND MEAN AND DISLOYAL? SO YOU BETTER GO BACK TO GROVELING AND PICKME DANCING AND YOUR FORMER INTERNALIZATION OF CAPTOR BONDING OR ELSE THE DIAL GOES UP TO 20 (and– OOPS– I might even kill you.”)

What really brought this idea home for me is what primatologist and evolutionary scientist Richard Wrangham says about male sexual violence against females among our closest ape cousins. He basically argues that, even if the momentary act of violence doesn’t seem sexually motivated, in a sense it’s protracted rape because the intimidation campaign is intended to secure the victims’ sexual compliance over the long term. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj5QAIjDulQ

I think it also cuts down on exertions since all it might take for the same male to “reboot” the target’s fear is a dirty look or a grunt. In other words, it’s ape “coercive control.” Coercive control expert Evan Stark writes about this in his book by the same name, using one story of a victim who could be sent into a full blown, paralyzing panic just by her abuser politely offering her a sweater to wear. This is because it was the same sweater he always told her to wear to cover the bruises he’d previously left all over her torso and arms and she knew what it mean… even if all bystanders saw was a guy worried about his wife catching a chill.

Anyway, interesting to know these tactics go back to prehistory. It makes the argument that abusive personalities are, in a sense, returning to some baseline monkey state. Wrangham completely dispels the “evolutionary excuse” for abuse because we have free will. But what his theories seem to argue is that we can be socialized in either direction– to “unearth” those ugly ancient traits or the transcend them through kinder socialization.

I think what this also exposes is that abusers are basically nihilists who don’t believe that genuine love exists because they weren’t loved as children and aren’t capable of it themselves. And since, like apes, the closest thing to love they themselves feel is infantile dependency and fear of loss/betrayal, it’s all they hope to inspire in others. Thus they use fear tactics and control to trigger captor bonding in victims. This effort might be more “masked” and subtle earlier in the relationship but goes into overdrive once victims start pulling away for real and abusers then start using more naked negging and terror tactics.

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
2 months ago

So good! Thanks, HOAC!

Whatarollercoaster
Whatarollercoaster
2 months ago

This resonates so much. I’ll not shsre the full awful story of his abusive behaviour, I should have filed for divorce before he did what he did but I feared how he’d behave , and how difficult he would make life for me. In that I was right, despite denying to the solicitor that he had actually committed adultery (the grounds I chose because I didn’t think he could argue with them,( but which his solicitor actually admitted it on his behalf ) but we said if he contested those grounds we’d go for unreasonable behaviour and he didn’t want that.
He’d worn me down, he’d got worse but softie that I am I thought that as he was having to support his elderly ill parents one of whom had dementia. Which he was deeply resenting. Not fair that he had to do that, honestly their situation was wholly of their own making . Me helping, well he wanted me to but he didn’t want me to, and he resented me for that too, and his brother (who at one point did their grocery order in a hospital bed) he was somehow bearing all the burden despite that not being true, honestly shit show on steroids.
Yes softie me thought it wasn’t a good time to do it. But the trash took itself.out. Despite the shit show. He wanted a divorce on the grounds of separation for 2 years by mutual consent. He wasn’t planning on a divorce.
But I was from the start. A friend who is a solicitor kindly told me what I needed to do, not just about the divorce but about the house and wills.
I started the time after he left really down, I didn’t have the strength to start the process (but I did the steps re the house and made a will making it clear that he was not included because he had left me. I couldn’t do it straight away. My dad has a big birthday do and I didn’t want to spoil it, I’m the end I did tell them just before the event and that was ok.
I should have done it sooner than I did, it was several months while I tried to build up strength. I found out a couple of lawyers who had been recommended to me. I think I was hoping that we could try and be fairly amicable. That was daft cos based on past performance I should have realised that would never happen in a month of Sundays.
I was getting there and there was something that happened that gave me a kick up the backside, a mutual friend died. I visited her house and left a card and some flowers for the daughters, I’d known them for years, had babysat them when they were little.the girls were there so I was able to express my condolences in person and they told me what time and date the funeral would be. Although it clashes with a counselling appointment I said I’d come.
Somehow he found out later in the week that I knew the details, maybe I mentioned it in passing. He went ballistic that I’d not told him, despite having been sacked as his diary keeper. He said if I went he wouldn’t go, ok that’s fine by me, no worries . He did go, he was playing some music at it.
About half an hour after this conversation I rang the numbers I’d been given and organised appointments to see who I’d choose to act for me.
I did go along to the funeral, didn’t stay afterwards, I went to the last half of the counselling appointment. Counsellor knew what I’d planned and was fine with that.
So what did I get from him post funeral, how unfriendly I was not to stay for the funeral tea. If I’d had any doubts that I was doing the right thing going for divorce then. That comment would have wiped them out. Whatever I would have done would have been wrong is have been wrong had I not gone, I’d have been wrong to go to the tea afterwards. And yes, as predicted he behaved abominably during the divorce which he longed out for 2 and a half years. When he got the papers (I’d pre warned him that they were coming ) again he went ballistic and rang me how could I do that to him. That wasn’t his plan etc etc, he rang out daughter wanting to know if I was doing it because I had someone else, I can’t forgive him for involving her or trying to involve her (she was 24 at the time). I made it quite clear from then on that trying to involve our children was a big NO. Yes he tried to use her as a ‘chaperone when he came to get stuff, I said he couldn’t come unless I was there. And it wasn’t fair to try and involve her. I did let him come while I was away stupidly trusting him (I had asked my neighbour if she could look after a bag of paperwork while I was away) . I asked him to leave a certain pile of my things near the bed, I put a bedspread over the pile, it was all my stuff. He didn’t respect my wishes. We had agreed that joint things would wait. But he took some joint stuff . Nothing that I wanted but that’s not the point. Absolutely no way again could he come without me here.
So while the funeral thing was the last straw, there had been a fair few straw bales already, it just needed the fuse lighting.
From then on. All hope abandoned of any reasonable behaviour and absolutely no Mrs nice girl

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago

My mother used to say there would be nothing more dangerous than a 200 LB two year old and it seems you discovered this from first hand experience. I’m glad you got out of it with your wits intact, moreover alive. He sounds terrifyingly unstable.

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago

Yes, it’s why their version of reconciling is to tell you how bad THEY feel. It’s manipulation and guilt-tripping. Zero concern for the people they hurt, the goal is just get those people not to abandon them.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

Grrrr, yes. That tactic is particularly unconscionable when used to make kids feel guilty or responsible.

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago

Yep, mine busily doing this now.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

Arg, that’s the worst. Because this can be one of the ingredients in FWs’ and other types of abusers typical campaigns to alienate children from victim parents, I agree with CL that kids have to be told the truth (in age appropriate ways) about what FW’s have done in order to “inoculate” them against being groomed in this way. Otherwise kids are susceptible to being “parentized” into feeling responsible for FW’s feelings.

I know for a fact that FW in my case was heavily parentized by his own parents and this is partly what made him “allergic” to intimacy to begin with. He toxic parents never allowed him to have a real childhood so naturally he never grew tf up. And the reason his parents did it is because their own parents were developmentally petrified and on and on and on.

Poor dears, right? But I only feel sorry for the children these assholes once were, not the adult marauders they become. And that’s precisely why I reserve all my sympathy and protection for actual children and will do whatever it takes to break that generational cycle before it turns another set of kids into adult “walking abortions” (as my mother so gracefully put it).

Elsie_
Elsie_
2 months ago

Yes, I feel sorry for my ex, as well as his lady friend, if they are still together. According to his relatives, she was taking advantage of him financially, so it’s hard to tell who was using whom there.

But yes, I switched from enabling his addiction and bad behavior for so many years to pointing the way for my kids, who are now adults. I’m very hopeful that they have broken the cycle despite some mistakes.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Elsie_

I just can’t feel sorry for cheaters and users though I also don’t like having to witness human suffering and these types typically do end up suffering when their bs catches up with them. I generally avert my eyes and don’t let myself think about it. Yuck.

Regarding how children/adult children respond to abusers, Dr. Emma Katz discusses her research on how abusers attack and undermine mother-child relationships and how some mothers and children resist coercive control on her Substack. She also investigates the reasons that some children side with perpetrators and others side with victimized parents. These themes were previously unexplored territory and might ring a lot of bells. Worth a subscription:

https://dremmakatz.substack.com/p/how-abusive-men-use-coercive-control?utm_source=publication-search

https://dremmakatz.substack.com/p/domestically-abusive-men-describe

Elsie_
Elsie_
2 months ago

Yes, her work is groundbreaking. My ex clearly viewed criticizing my mothering as a way to undermine my core beliefs about myself, but if in turn, I pointed out at area where he needed to compliment the kids or be more involved, he nearly always had a fit. He’d tell me how my family was so disfunctional that I was clueless, whereas his family was “perfect.” I figured out pretty early on that wasn’t true.

When we separated for the last time, he went nearly dark with the kids, just texting them a picture here-and-there of something interesting. Nothing for birthdays and Christmas. I struggled to think through why that was, but realized that he was operating on an “out of sight, out of mind” approach, which I had seen before in other contexts. I was a wife appliance, and they were kid appliances. He didn’t need us any more, so he switched us out.

And through the whole separation, divorce, and closeout, there just wasn’t much in the way of kindness, because he was playing the victim card with his family and his attorney. But the attorney, of course, figured it out.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Elsie_

I think part of the problem for some FWs is that their blameshifting is a lot harder to justify when it’s aimed at kids. In any event, it’s much easier to fabricate cause for blame and smear partners than it is children if just because most domestic abusers naturally aim most of their rage at partners (for reasons researchers still can’t figure out) or simply because the culture doesn’t really support parents who demonize children, even adult children. .

But this causes a big hitch regarding abusers’ typical “neutralization/guilt reduction” strategies. To the extent that blameshifting/DARVO are simply part of neutralization- without which abusers would have no shield against bad conscience/self loathing/negative stigma due to the heinous things they’ve done– I assume detachment and avoidance of kids is the only trick they have left.

I imagine this also plays a role in some of those “Houdini FWs” who simply up and disappear one day and never look back. I think it’s because even they were never quite convinced of their own blameshifting fabrications against their primary partners and simply choose avoidance as a last resort.

Then again, suddenly disappearing in a puff of smoke could be a way to stay out of prison in the case the FW in question were to see their former victims moving on and forming better romantic relationships. The types who’d be driven to murderous rage by this are probably among the Houdinis.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
2 months ago

(For the record I think the 12 steps are a pretty fabulous change model. I was sort of with that being used in that context up until it was “take accountability for your own faults” and then it seems like “stay with the idiot.” Yeah no. By all means-learn and grow as a person from the mistake-but we are not accountable for the actions of others. Ahem.)

Like the cousin in Chumplet’s email, it was the person I THOUGHT that I was with that I was in love with. If that person was ever real, she vanished when it was time to start acting like a real adult. Perhaps it was always an ideal, perhaps it was the potential, or perhaps I’m just an idiot. Like I said, I don’t know if that person was ever real anymore. I doubt I will find out. And frankly I’m kind of OK with that.

I was pretty over the person she either became or always was the day, famously, she asked for an open relationship (and coincidentally already seemed to have somebody picked out). That was the day after I was diagnosed with diabetes and I was having a really hard time with that. I always ran toward her problems-she hit me when I was down and vulnerable. While I had started to have doubts leading up to that point, that sealed the deal. Idiot that I am, I Pick-Me Danced hoping that she would snap out of it, or that it was just the stress. How foolish I was.

Being out of love with her was crit-confirmed the weekend after our famous “post-break-up couples counseling sessions” when I was literally rolling around in her filth trying to move her old desk, seeing that she never once cleaned that area and that the reason that she never vacuumed was that she had broken the damned thing after a month of owning it and never bothered to tell me(was actually a pretty easy fix, ironically).

Have a Fuckwit Free Friday!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

I’m sorry if this sounds a bit mother hen-ish but I think you’re a bit hard on yourself (oops cluck cluck sorry cluck).

But seriously I imagine that being a male survivor of emotional abuse creates more social pressure to take at least part responsibility for relationship dynamics. Maybe it’s seen as more “masculine” to take part of the blame? But short of being an actual abuser, I don’t think any of us have the telepathic voodoo powers to make a great person cheat who wasn’t already so prone.

In any case, I’m not sure it’s actually any healthier than when female survivors of abuse internalize the codependency theory of intimate partner abuse or not because, to take some liberties with Shakespeare’s words about jealousy, the minds of abusers “Shapes faults that are not” and “But jealous abusive souls will not be answered so; They are not ever jealous abusive for the cause, But jealous abusive for they are jealous abusive; ’tis a monster Begot upon itself, born of itself.

Personally I suspect the origins of most cheating, like the origins of all partner abuse, may very well be a need for sexual dominance borne of abusers’ extreme paranoia they they’re fated to be abandoned and the nihilistic belief that genuine love and loyalty don’t exist. I think all abusers basically think they’re outdrawing someone who would eventually shoot them but some mask this to the extent that even being exposed as jealous/possessive feels too vulnerable to someone who is literally consumed with it.

Abusers gonna abuse. This is why I think 12 steps is great for actual addiction but a disaster when applied to abuse. For one, bottles, pills and powders don’t track you down and stalk you, threaten your life or your custody of children or at the very least threaten Dickensian style social ruin the way human abusers do. Booze doesn’t pretend to be organic kefir and blow doesn’t pretend to be Vitamin C powder. But abusers certainly do. So I think that even conducting battered women’s meetings on the 12 steps model (i.e., no “cross talk,” emphasis on taking responsibility, etc.) implies that victims are “addicted” to abuse and abusers which is, to quote Dr. Emma Katz, absolute rubbish.

Yes, once abuse is in the distant past, self-inventory unrelated to the abuse is a great practice for anyone. But the old view that most victims had something especially wrong with them to begin with (low self esteem, attachment issues. etc.) turned out to be bunk in a statistical sense.

I could go on and on (and do!) but no one argues it better than the late Evan Stark and his wife and fellow researcher Anne Flitcraft in a chapter on DV they co-wrote for Post-Traumatic Stress Therapy and the Victims of Violent crime edited by Frank Ochberg. They make a very studious argument for why applying the codependency theory to abuse is an epic fail and usually produces the “second injury” of DV.

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
Bruno
Bruno
2 months ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

I used to lead divorce recovery groups. Hearing “take accountability for your own faults” sounds like “This is all your fault!” to people already traumatized by blame shifting FWs. I never found an effective way to relate this as personal growth in the setting of divorce recovery groups. It seems this is part of self discovery and gently nurturing people down that path is the is the best way.

Best Thing
Best Thing
2 months ago
Reply to  Bruno

After several months of floundering around in the “take accountability for what I did to make him cheat” I have settled upon the following: I take accountability for 50% of a terrible marriage, and I have been and am still currently working on my faults in relationships; I take 0% accountability for the actions of the liar, cheater, and thief I married.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
2 months ago
Reply to  Bruno

Completely agree. Reading that account, that is where my buy-in to that model totally failed.

Bless you for running ANY kind of support group-let alone those.

Bruno
Bruno
2 months ago

It hit me in the face like a cold slap and I never thought of her the same way again.
Post D-Day, I had been been doing variations of the pick me dance for more than a year. She had given me very little encouragement, even forcing the sale of the home our kids were living in out of spite. When that fell through, there was a tiny crack and she tearfully asked to try to reconcile. I was elated and we started counseling with a very good therapist. The groundrules were a commitment to twelve sessions and no contact with the AP. I thought we were making progress, but after a few weeks she admitted to still communicating with the AP and we she started to see the therapist alone. When we met together again, she told me she wanted to stop therapy and complete the divorce. A switched flipped in me at that point and I asked her to just leave. I think she had more to say, but I just stood up and opened the door. Any love I felt towards her ended when that literal door shut. I had a very validating conversation with the therapist and that chapter of my life was over. I have been very low contact with her since.

OHFFS
OHFFS
2 months ago

It took a few weeks, maybe as much as a month as I processed the betrayal. I was the walking wounded and unable to do much of anything at first. We had been together for more than 30 years, so it was hard to adjust to not loving him anymore. I started looking for a place to get away from him within three weeks, so maybe that was the point when it died. I realized he wasn’t the person I had loved for so long. It took me several months to find a suitable place, as both my daughter and I have special medical needs (a house without gas or oil heat or a mildewy basement, which I am allergic to, to name just two of the requirements) so there was the hell of in house separation for awhile. That nearly killed me, quite literally, because it made me suicidal. So I would advise any chump to avoid in house separation at all costs. I now think that a moldy basement would have been preferable. At least you can kill mold. FWs, being the undead, cannot be killed.

Last edited 2 months ago by OHFFS
LookingForwardsToTuesday
LookingForwardsToTuesday
2 months ago

I don’t know that it was a “falling out of love” moment; rather it was more of a “completely extinguished any lingering feelings of love after all that she had put me through in the space of 30 seconds” kind of moment.
 
It was about 10 days after D-Day (the kids found out that she was cheating
and told me) and after I had rejected her ever so generous “it’s an open relationship or divorce” ultimatum. It was 10 O’Clock at night and she was drunk and belligerent; clearly absolutely the right time (and state of mind) to tell the kids (then 11, 16 and 18) that we were going to divorce. Her exact words to the 3 of them were “I don’t love Dad and I haven’t loved him for years, so we’re getting divorced, but you’ll be fine, because a lot of your friends’ parents are divorced and their kids are fine ….. AND I DID NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR!” 
 
And the she stormed out and left me to deal with 3 very frightened and upset kids, which isn’t the kind of thing that you forget (or forgive) in a hurry.
 
LFTT

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
2 months ago

This was abuse of your beloved children. Why should you ever forgive or ever forget?

Bluewren
Bluewren
2 months ago

Ballbag McGee cheated on and humiliated me so many times that when I finally told him the game was up, I had no more feelings for the rat bastard.

Dickhead McCluggage is a different story. We met as teenagers and found each other again 20 years later, blah blah movie love story etc etc.
He’s done some heinous stuff including abandoning our cats to die and burning our house down and occasionally I STILL have to replay all that to remind my brain of what sort of person he really is.

Psychological damage is a trip.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Bluewren

Maybe it was compounded damage to you but I wonder if your lingering confusion is due to the fact that monster#2 was one of those “quasi-split personality” type abusers?

I had one of those. He wasn’t Sybil or anything. He knew when he was lying but I think he also did something that might be called “cubing” in forensic psychology. The term “cubing” was actually coined by the BTK serial killer to explain in prison interviews how he managed to trick not only his community but his entire family into thinking he was this upstanding, God-fearing pillar.

From what analysts describe, “cubing” is akin to method acting in that the perpetrator– while just lucid and canny enough to avoid getting exposed or caught– still invests so deeply in whatever performative BS they’re spewing at the moment that it can be spellbinding even to very experienced people (such as Ted Bundy actually tricking a panel of veteran forensic psychologists into thinking he was just a conscientious citizen trying to help solve his own crimes).

In other words, the best liars are the ones who can make themselves believe their own lies… sort of. If they say they love you, they really mean it. Yes, part of them knows how changeable they are, at least enough to hide the evidence of their changeability, and there’s a kind of imposter syndrome underlying it. But the chinks in their veneers only make them double down on trying to mean it. For now. Until they don’t mean it.

I think a perpetrator’s “cubing” ability probably directly correlates to how vulnerable their victims are to something called “projective identification”– one of the theories for why most rape victims somehow end up feeling tainted by and actually guilty about the crimes committed against them. Aside from most cultures’ tendency to victim-blame, I think the intensity of victims’ feelings of self blame for rape is probably proportionate to the rapists’ degree of “cubing”– meaning however intensely the perpetrator invested in the belief at the moment of assault that the “victim had it coming” or even “wanted it” is how deeply the victim will internalize the sense of being tainted/guilty.

In other words, it’s a kind of mesmerization. I’m betting the threat of violence and trauma make people far more vulnerable to that false spellbinding effect, a bit like how a break in the skin makes people more vulnerable to being infected by flesh eating bacteria. So I’m guessing that the contrast between monster#2’s “Dr. Jekyl” and “Mr. Hyde” personae was so radical that your brain broke.

But that may only be a measure of what an extreme psycho he was, not necessarily of how fragile your sense of reality or sense of self are. I suspect you aren’t actually attracted to shitty people but just that your consciousness was hacked by a real pro.

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
Bluewren
Bluewren
2 months ago

Yes that was a good explanation- thank you for taking the time.

When I first met him i
I would never have guessed in a million years he’d be capable of some of the stuff he’s done.

Even when it was obvious something was terribly wrong, I never would’ve thought he’d do such horrible things.

All those nights I slept next to him, the times I opened up and told him of my past and gave him the key to my vulnerability.
He planned it all out and decided I’d won the audition to be the next in line.

I had no idea of what a psychopath he is.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Bluewren

It’s very rare that anyone outside the home is going to see the true faces of these abusers which I think adds to survivors’ sense of disbelief. But every once in a while, the “cubing” mechanism seems to go haywire and the mask drops for others to see. When that happens, victims may finally experience the healing powers of social consensus. In that sense, justice is probably the best cure for PTSD going.

But, unless victims live in one party consent states regarding secret recordings and manage to capture abusers at their worst and show others, consensus is generally only going to happen in cases where the forms of abuse are criminalized. For instance, before I began attending court in support of various survivors, the director of the advocacy network warned how these “seamless” or Teflon types of abusers can sometimes surprisingly lose their sh*t while either being sued for abuse or criminally tried. I was told it would usually be at moments when victims would go on the stand and recount gruesome details about the violence they’d endured and/or describe twisted aspects of the perpetrators’ sexuality. Sometimes the meltdowns would be elicited by a witness to assault or an expert describing injuries.

The cases I saw were all lawsuits because domestic batterers are rarely given full jury trials and, on the off chance they’re even charged, usually plead out for a slap on the wrist. Anyway, true to form, I saw a few lose it when their former partners testified about the abuse they experienced. One normally smooth operator suddenly turned so purple he looked like he was going to explode (like the villain in Dune) and began twitching and audibly mumbling. Another sparkly charmer put his head in his hands and convulsively began scooting his chair back and forth on the stone floor which produced these really loud farting sounds until his embarrassed lawyer hissed at him to stop.

It was both fascinating and frightening because the whole courtroom would become tense. I think judges are trained not to show reactions but the marshals guarding the court would shift their hands closer to their guns. Then members of the jury who might have been blaming victims/siding with perpetrators up to that point might look especially spooked or downcast as if they suddenly realized that they have no danger radars.

The reactions were clearly such a “thing” that I imagine very high net worth perps would hire the kinds of white shoe lawyers who would coach and prepare them for this pivotal moment but the cases I saw ranged from middle to upper middle class. I also think that, up to those moments, their own lawyers invested in clients’ seeming innocence.

What I perceived about these mask drop moments and what the director of the program described is when perpetrators find themselves having to listen to descriptions of events they’d managed to deeply convince themselves and others either didn’t happen at all (victim injured themselves to frame them, etc.) or happened differently (victim provoked assault, etc.). Basically they’d repeated the false narratives so often that they’d come to invest in the lies and were actually caught off guard by the truth— otherwise why wouldn’t they be expecting their former victims to describe what actually happened?

I later learned the terms “neutralization” or “guilt reduction strategy” to describe how many serial perpetrators manage to self-spellbind with false and distorted renditions of events and distorted characterizations of their own victims or anyone who would negatively judge them (https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/9/2/46).

Because this mental trick of mesmerizing self talk is so ingrained, apparently many offenders aren’t even conscious that they’re doing it. Yet obviously perpetrators have some awareness since, if their victims contradict these “reality rewrites,” offenders will often respond with violent rage. So, like in cubing, perpetrators both know and deny the truth simultaneously and both invest so deeply in lies that they nearly believe them but yet still recognize the truth enough to preemptively discredit victims and use coercive tactics to suppress the truth.

To me, one of the really interesting things about the neutralization mechanism is that it demonstrates that these individuals actually have residual consciences because, otherwise, why would they have to engage in such elaborate mental gymnastics in order to snuff any sense of guilt or negative stigma? Since even supposedly “zero empathy” serial killers like Bundy and Dahmer were observed utilizing this mental tactic, it suggests that, rather than being actually devoid of empathy, these offenders have developed an on/off switch which would explain why these individuals were often long able to evade detection or even suspicion and why some of their victims didn’t sense danger.

Furthermore, the tactic is apparently learned– probably over many generations in dysfunctional clans– which therefore displaces (wildly pursued but never proven) genetic concepts of “zero empathy” psychopathy/sociopathy as an explanation,, at least making the awkward and suspiciously eugenic “crime gene” theories unnecessary.

Because these types of perpetrators typically turn out to be emulating abusive role models from childhood (who, at least in the cases of serial rapists and serial killers, are also generally male) and usually also abusing these perpetrators’ female caregivers/mothers, what this suggests is that domestic violence is like an assembly line producing these supposedly born “psychopaths” which means the remedy is to rescue children from these circumstances before they succumb to the generational vampire bites and that’s generally going to involve protecting their mothers.

So it’s actually society itself that’s producing these monsters by refusing to protect women from abuse and continuing to allow men who abuse their partners to have access to children. So, to me, these dubious “genetic” theories seem like an attempt to deny that the above is true and to defend the status quo of coddling abusive men on the grounds that they “just happen” and can’t be stopped from happening.

Anyway, the basic takeaway is that blaming victims for not “detecting” red flags in time to protect themselves is part of the problem because there may actually be nothing functionally and inherently wrong with these perpetrators’ brains or beings. These abusers generally “smell” completely normal to normal people… at least when the empathy/conscience switch is in the “on” position. And the fact that bystanders presume these abusers are normal robs victims of the kind of consensus survivors need to really heal.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
2 months ago

Hi HOAC:

Have you ever heard of the serial killer Brian Steven Smith, who murdered women in Alaska? He reminds me of my STBX, in that he had a superficially normal persona that masked a seething rage-hatred of women.There are tapes of Smith torturing a woman to death by prolonged strangulation while he muttered at the victim to die and said vile things as she did.

As far as I know, my STBX did not kill anyone. But want to? Oh yes, and certainly me. I have a recording of him muttering about torturing and killing people and he clearly is aroused by that. His porn is heavily weighted towards torture porn. He’s violated the court order many times. And yet, none of the organizations, law enforcement or doctors or therapists find that actionable or a basis for removal of his weapons.To me, that is the craziest thing of all. I am a dead woman walking. Now when I see something in the news about a person who committed some heinous DV crime, and people wail “Why didn’t someone say something?” I know the bitter truth that probably several people said something, but it just didn’t matter. I’ve documented everything, and I hope it will help the women who come after.

I’ve digressed. But I hear you loud and clear about how these guys truly believe the lies they tell, at some level. Once I figured out a lie and confronted him (before I knew how dangerous he was) and he made up a plausible explanation but there was a reason the plausible explanation did not fit and I said that. And then he went right on to another lie that was almost the exact opposite. When I noted that, I watched two men battle for control of his face, and finally he shrieked, covered his face and ran off. The following day he told me that my lack of trust in him was the real problem.

Some cheaters are straight up psychopaths. I will never understand how the RIC gets away with not testing all cheaters for personality disorders as a first step, because these people can’t be helped, and the women (or men) they are married to are in danger. They will be abused in one or many forms: emotional, financial, physical, spiritual, etc. And not least, danger to their lives, danger that one day they will go missing, or their remains will be found, or they are missing and the bodies of their children are discovered in an oil tank.

Last edited 2 months ago by PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
2 months ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

If I survive this I plan to tell my story to anyone who will listen. I already spoke with the local shelter, remarkable women who are trying to change the system, and said that post-divorce I am willing to join them anytime they want a real-life narrative from someone who lived it. I have documented everything. The police need a lot of education on this topic and so does the court.

Because we all know what would happen “if one woman told the truth about her life..”

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  PrincipledLife

I was recently thinking about the case of Brian Smith (who is originally from South Africa) because of this bizarre new policy announcement whereby most of the foreign emigrees being offered any path to citizenship in the US will now be South Africans claiming to be victims of “white genocide.”

I have nothing against normal people from South Africa but I think nothing screams “pro-Apartheid Afrikaners” more than the above claim, right?

It’s a familiar type, unfortunately. My kids and I live part of the year in a South American country which survived a gruesomely murderous military dictatorship and I can attest that there are no bigger freaks than the types who yearn for a return of authoritarian repression and violence and pretend to be victims of “woke” historians. We run into these types every once in awhile and they sometimes assume I’m sympathetic to their cause because I’m a tall blond Yankee. But they just seem like bug-eyed demented psychos. Regular people joke that the “dictatorship zombies” dream of the days when they could pay their maids in bananas and command deference wherever they went because the entire country was living in terror.

The Smith case also made me think about clinical forensic studies correlating something called “rape myth acceptance” to support for racism and authoritarianism. I wondered whether grossly inegalitarian societies like Apartheid South Africa may have bred especially high numbers of serial rapist/killers… except none of this was being documented because these psychos could kill with impunity as long as the victims weren’t white.

This isn’t to suggest that some abusers don’t pose as “woke” and support the Democratic party (hello Harvey Weinstein).

I think your personal story should inspire a series on, say, ProPublica or NPR called “Dead Woman Walking” where abuse survivors who’ve been failed by the justice system and helping professions describe the clear and present danger they and their children continue to live in and what little is ever done about it.

No one should have to live like this. I wish you safety and strength (and ring cameras).

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago
Reply to  Bluewren

Wow

moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
2 months ago

When did I fall out of love? I didn’t. My ex is the one who changed. Now, I did stop being able to show affection very quickly. I couldn’t hug or kiss that new person. I couldn’t drop everything to attend to them. (Am I an Enabler? Yep. I’m aware of that. And that’s mine to work on.) But ine thing that interested me almost immediately and still to this day is the people around me. Some of them were just so blasé about it. The way someone talks about the fall of Constantinople: “and then this happened, and human civilization went on…” Tell that to the Byzantines! But then others in my circle wanted there to be a WAR. They immediately came up with hateful words, words of conflict. And these people also seem so far off the mark. Just because I made this discovery and made the decision to separate from this person doesn’t mean that feelings I have that developed over years and years suddenly just…go away(?). I built something with love and care, and now I’m just supposed to let it wash away and casually put myself back out there? What kind of psychopathy is that? To stick with the earlier metaphor, this wasn’t a sand castle. This was my fortress and my Shangri-La, a castle made of polished stone with gardens inside. I understand that the person I built it with is different from what we built. But who I miss, who I still love, is that person who was a builder with me. Not the person who became a destroyer.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago

I relate. I always think that any personality trait that would be optimal in a better world can never be branded “unhealthy” or “wrong” or cOdEpEnDeNt. Basically, in the best of all possible worlds, it would be no crime to “love too much” or “trust too much” or be too self-sacrificing since no one would ever take advantage of it (in a perfect world).

From that vantage point, I have zero shame about loving with my whole heart or even suspending objectivity and judgment (for a while) for the people I love. After all, parents can’t be really and truly “objective” in loving their children because only a kind of unconditional love can nurture a small child through infancy into healthy adulthood. It was just part of a natural learning curve for me to understand the (rather sad) lesson that adult love for other supposedly competent adults can never be fully “unconditional.”

Oh well. Among other cultural myths, I once believed George Washington actually chopped down a cherry tree. So do I deserve to be terrorized, embezzled, gaslighted, betrayed and infected with STDs because I once believed a treacly cultural myth? Really?

I think not. I think I’m adorable for once being so gullible which only makes me even more sympathetic and protective towards innocent and harmless people who haven’t yet been put through some horrible trial by fire. It makes me not wish upon anyone else (nor mine enemy’s dog) some of the awful “object lessons” I’ve had to endure which (blowing my own horn here) is probably my best character trait.

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
moroncommunicator
moroncommunicator
2 months ago

Thanks for this. Good words here, and (finally) a pleasant way to frame a personality trait that others seem so quick to find fault with.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago

Never be ashamed of having once been defenseless. It’s like being ashamed of once having been a defenseless infant.

When it comes to innocence (even when this endures well into adulthood), it’s not necessarily a mark of weakness or stupidity. Consider how Einstein initially dismissed the rise of Hitler as a “childhood disease” that Germany would soon recover from. He even said, “He is living on the empty stomach of Germany. As soon as economic conditions improve, he will no longer be important.”

As we all know, Einstein was famed for his intellectual deficiency (sarcasm).

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago

Also it’s probably some well-kept secret that women are never supposed to share with men but a lot of women are suckers for men who really and truly own their own emotional vulnerability and aren’t ashamed of it.

Because I studied cinema history, I remember all the buzz about the French actor Jean-Hugues Anglade who became a heartthrob because of his vulnerability in contrast to rather strong female protagonists (like in Femme Nikita: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-3ZBT35Plg).

I don’t know if it’s the actor’s vulnerability so much as his *lack of shame* of being vulnerable to romantic feelings that struck women around the world as so heart-meltingly attractive. But I remember as a kid how adult women swooned over Jean-Hugues Anglade (even when they couldn’t properly pronounce his name in the US).

As a common denominator between male and female “attractiveness,” I’m guessing it’s probably the lack of shame over failing to meet rigid cultural gender standards that really sets the bar. Just like I shouldn’t be ashamed of going to the wall nor feel it somehow compromises my “femininity” for being a kick-ass street fighter for the sake of my children’s safety, I don’t think any man should ever feel ashamed for being tender-hearted in relationships. Even while these traits might disadvantage us in such a dog-eat-dog world, I still think they’re lovely and lovable and largely perceived as “sexy” by non-creepy and normal human beings.

Last edited 2 months ago by Hell of a Chump
marissachump
marissachump
2 months ago

It was a grueling process that took YEARS. Don’t make the mistakes I did. I had no sense of self worth, likely because of her abuse. There were probably hundreds of D-days. Her abuse of me only escallated the longer I fought to stay. She would have definitely killed me had I stayed much longer. The final straw for me was when she coerced me using all kinds of threats to go into a polyamorous relationship with her and a mutual friend. Mutual friend ended up treating me better than she ever did and she lost her mind and demanded I cut things off with the other partner. There was a wildly dangerous confrontation where I feel lucky to have left with my life. And that was it. It was the last straw. I was done having her contort me into every humiliating mutation of my sense of self for her pleasure and amusement and I had officially, finally, lost any and every semblance of a positive feeling towards her. I had to literally escape until I saw she was calm enough to not fear her pulling a gun on me and then contended with her stalking and harrassing me for a while after.

2nd Gen Chump
2nd Gen Chump
2 months ago

I already had one foot out of the door because of his laziness, his selfishness, and his poor hygiene. He’d try to criticize me but the best he could come up with was on the level that I made the ramen “too fancy” and he liked his plain. He would wait till I was happy and singing songs to the cats to pick a fight about his interpretation of some offhand comment I made, the worst of about a hundred possible interpretations. Meanwhile, no matter how small I made my needs he still managed to find a way to disappoint. I made excuses for him, hoping I could love him out of whatever phase this was. Once I learned he hadn’t let being married interfere with his dating life, I wasn’t even that mad. This had nothing to do with me, our relationship, or my real or imagined faults. This was about the void where his soul should be and no amount of love or ramen would ever fill it.

I was glad to have a “good enough” reason to leave him so I did.

Imtired
Imtired
2 months ago

A switch flipped from on to off. Granted that was not the first DDay and the more you have the wearier you get. So it was the last straw. You get tired of their BS and see what they really are, Fuck wits.

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago

So many of you had a feeling something was off. I didn’t. I have to come to grips with the fact that I was totally duped. In hindsight I can see and my adult children and I are, as therapists call it, “recontextualizing” our memories. He’s a doctor, I always believed and said he was working long hours. Nope. He was an avid cyclist who’d go on multi-hour bike rides on the weekend. Nope. Not to get political here, but in the aftermath of the last Presidential election, I was researching moving overseas, even talking to an emigration attorney in Mexico. “But our life is here!” FW protested. Yeah, his secret life.

It’s very humbling, getting so thoroughly duped. And it’s hard to get my mind around. But that isn’t love.

MrsCrumpetChump
MrsCrumpetChump
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

I was completely blindsided too. Absolute zero that he was in an affair. No clues, nothing. Just one morning, he admitted he “had feelings for someone”. And that only because the MOW had said the same thing to her husband, and told him who. So, guess STBXH thought he better tell me in case I found out from the MOWs husband. (He did reach out to see how I was doing a week or so later. So kind. And brave.)

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

I hope you read my response to “moroncommunicator” above and don’t beat yourself up for simply having once been naive or innocent. It’s nothing to be ashamed of.

For instance, I was listening to a podcast of an elderly gentleman whose ancestors had lived on the Louisiana Bayou for hundreds of years. His ancestors had managed everything with very little technological help so, quite naturally, he wasn’t prepared for the effects of climate change on weather patterns and, consequently, wasn’t prepared for his home to be flooded and destroyed.

So did he have cause for shame? To quote Monty Python, “No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition” (or climate change).

By the same token, considering the sheer magnitude and far-reaching-ness of the damage caused by abusive individuals (like that caused by climate change), one might think that abusive individuals are actually the majority of humanity (just like one might assume that big polluters who contribute the biggest carbon footprints must be in the majority). But, in fact, they’re not. It only takes a few bad apples as they say. So some of us simply weren’t prepared for the Spanish Inquisition, climate change or abuso-sexual freaks.

Personally I never trained in the defensive use of assault weapons because I don’t tend to fear terrorist attacks on my seaside burb. Considering how the world is changing, maybe I should consider familiarizing myself with extreme violence. But would I be a bad or defective person if I had reservations about doing that? Maybe I just hate violence and try to avoid thoughts of it.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

I only noticed something was off in the final months after YEARS so pls dont feel bad about that. He had a job that required lots of “travel” and a similar hobby/alibi. To quote Sandra L Brown (author of Women who love Psychopaths): “They are sicker than we are smart.” In other words, if you have not tangled with one of these people, then they can be tough to recognize. The older FWs have decades of practice deceiving us.
Glad you are doing the important work of recontextualizing.

Ka-chump
Ka-chump
2 months ago

For me he had already eroded my love battery to 5% level with psychological abuse, when he moved in with his AP abroad (our home country) under the guise of visiting home & feeling homesick & depressed here.

When I traveled there I did a pick-me dance for a couple days then realized there was nothing to work with. Plus he said something like ‘I’ve moved on, bye’ with an evil smirk.

My sister tried to comfort me but I really felt relieved and realized I had 0% love left and life is ok.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
2 months ago
Reply to  Ka-chump

I know the evil smirk. When I went to my husband to tell him my mother was dying of cancer, the same kind of cancer that had killed his first wife, and he looked up from keyboarding, smirked gleefully and then went back to keyboarding without saying a single word to me…that was when every drop of the ocean of love I had for him, dried up and turned to dust.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  Ka-chump

The evil smirk is real…i’ve seen it. Good riddance!

ChumpyGirlKC
ChumpyGirlKC
2 months ago

To long to fall out of love with my Fuck Wits?

For FW#1 – one second. I was so young (a child – married at 18, first child at 19, etc. Was not real love. I was escaping a very abusive childhood home with him, that’s all. I see that now, but didn’t then. But don’t feel sorry for FW, he cheated on me and gave me chlamydia while I was pregnant).

For FW#2 – two weeks. I was traumatized (physical abuse was involved this time from this FW) and I was in severe denial, especially since I was truly in love. We had the normal ups and down in marriage, but I never thought he was capable of this extreme abuse. But two weeks in it was like someone flipped a switch and I went from “I can do this, I can fix this, I can be better, I can win him back…” to “Who the fuck is this guy and why did he think it was okay to betray me and our family? Who TF does he think he is?” Rage! Anger! Disgust! Repulsion!

Goes to show you don’t ever truly know a person and you should always listen to your intuition. That’s what it’s there for.

My alarms with going off with both marriages and i wish I had listened. Would have saved me a lot of pain and suffering.

But i will never doubt it again!

wrongpastachump
wrongpastachump
2 months ago

It was the dead look in his eyes like a lizard. I felt really scared and frightened. I suddenly saw him as nosferatu and I got away fast.

Never wanted him near me again.

PeaceAtLast
PeaceAtLast
2 months ago

Instead of dead eyes, my cheater had an ugly, mean voice (unlike his usual friendly voice) that came from deep within. It was very scary.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago

I know what you mean…gave me chills

TranquilAF
TranquilAF
2 months ago

I loved my FW, and for most of our 24 years together, I think he loved me. We were the happiest couple all our friends and family knew. And as everyone always tells me after discovering he’d betrayed me and our kids – they could believe it of almost anyone but him.

And yet, the instant I discovered his 18 month affair with his boss which included several holidays abroad, class A drugs and living a Kardashian, fantasy lifestyle financed by her chump husband and her chump kids’ university savings accounts, my love turned to utter hatred. He instantly disgusted me. Anyone who could that to their partner and young children are the lowest of the low. D-day was nearly 5 months ago and he finally packed his bags and left to rent a shitty house on his own nearly 2 months ago after me repeatedly demanding he get the fuck out.

Our eldest daughter (12) wants nothing to do with him… Won’t even send messages or speak on the phone. She says our home is better without him, which surprised me initially. I thought they had a good relationship, but I’ve come to realise that he withdrew from us all so much during his 18 month double-life that by the time his lies were uncovered, their relationship was already strained. She just never understood why. Now he’s the sad sausage who thinks everyone but himself is to blame for his own child not wanting to see him. They’re called consequences, motherfucker.

Don’t get me wrong, I had some extremely low moments in those first few months (passive suicidal ideation) but I’ve amazed myself at how well I’m doing since he cleared off. I don’t give a crap about his twu wuv for the OW. But I do hope he’s as miserable as he deserves to be. I wish he didn exist. The thought of having to have any kind of contact with him for the next decade whilst our youngest reaches adulthood makes me sick. I am NC as much as possible apart from the absolute necessities regarding childcare for my youngest. He is gob-smacked that I can’t just ‘get over it’ and play happy co-parents for the kids’ sake. And so, as sure as night follows day, the narrative is that I’m now the one ruining their lives. Hmmmm, ok!

I am forever grateful to myself that I retained my dignity. I didn’t beg him to stay, beg him to love me, beg him to not see her. I refused to listen to any of his pathetic attempts to explain why he did it or how much of it was my fault. I told him I had wished his plane back from his secret holiday with OW would crash (but then felt terribly guilty about all other passengers and crew on board!). He was horrified that I hated him so much I’d wish him dead.

Me and my kids will probably lose our home, and have to relocate. There will be hard times ahead, for sure. But I am tranquil AF that they will be without him.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  TranquilAF

Hard time but better times ahead. It amuses me that they are surprised we dont wish them well—the depth of their entitlement is boundless. Good for your for handling yourself so well. Keep on keepin’ on!

Orlando
Orlando
2 months ago

I fell out of love with Fuckwit long before D-day. I just didn’t realize it. I have abandonment issues & that’s what I was really struggling with after D-day. How can you love someone who doesn’t love you back? You can’t actually when you really think about it. I sometimes miss a couples life especially my old house but I don’t miss him.

Elsie_
Elsie_
2 months ago

I was a slow learner, needing a year apart before I said “no reconcilation.” I knew it was over deep down, but on the surface, I felt mixed. My husband initiated the necessary divorce. Even when I finally sat in front of my attorney, I told him that I had mixed feelings. He encouraged me to stay the course because you often find out who you REALLY married.

Yes, that was it. The divorce dragged on and was ugly. When I saw that the judge had signed off, I felt strangely “meh.” Yes, I was no longer in love.

MyRedSandals
MyRedSandals
2 months ago

For 40 years, I was systematically groomed, gaslit and homogenized by my covert serial cheater FW, to the point where I could no longer tell you who I was or if up was up and down was down.

I foolishly thought I loved FW with all my heart and soul and if something happened to him, I was certain I wouldn’t survive it and be able to carry on alone (I read these words now and want to puke because it reminds me of just how strong my trauma bond was).

But thanks to Tom, a crack therapist who quickly parsed out that FW was a fraud, a poser, and a papier-mâché partner interested only in image manipulation, attention and affirmation. Tom also recognized that the debilitated, demoralized and deflated one-dimensional shell of a woman sitting in front of him was not the authentic me, and he worked hard to (1) convince me that FW’s choices were all about him, not me, and (2) still buried inside me was the smart, vibrant, independent woman I used to be and she could be resurrected! When I finally got it through my head that Tom was right, it was much easier for me to see that what I felt for FW wasn’t love, it was obligation, misplaced loyalty and servitude. If only I’d known about LACGAL, Tracy and Chump Nation, I’m convinced I would have wizened up years, if not decades, earlier.

Last edited 2 months ago by MyRedSandals
PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

Bless you and Tom and this community. Wishing you all the best on your healing journey!

MyRedSandals
MyRedSandals
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

PeaceSeeker:

Thank you! I guess I should’ve added an epilogue to my post!

I have been happily residing in the Land of Meh for years now. The #1 most healing thing I did for myself was strict NO CONTACT (11 years and going strong). I know it may seem like a drastic thing to do, like you’re amputating part of yourself, but why volunteer to carry a diseased limb around with you if it will literally threaten your mind, your health, your spirit, your life? And that’s what FWs are… diseased limbs that need amputating. It’s only after I cut it off — cut HIM off — that I began to understand just how much insidious abuse I’d suffered at his hand; it was administered in such a well-executed, methodical manner, I never knew what trouble I was in, just like the poor froggy in the pot of boiling water. I asked Tom, “How on earth did we get here? How did this happen?”, and his answer was, “One day at a time for 40 years”. NC gave space for the confusion and disorientation to melt away, for immense clarity to step in, and it allowed me to reconnect, reconcile, repair, rebuild and respect ME.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

Good on you for the NO CONTACT with the diseased limb (great metaphor). I am not as far along but getting to MEH gradually. NC has similarly been essential.

They HATE NC because it removes their power. An example of how mine tried to keep his hold on me:

Once i got the money he owed me, my name off our shared lease, closed the joint accounts, and my belongings out, I blocked FW on everything incl. social media. He theb stalked me so I had to report him to the cops and they cautioned him. Weeks later, he uploaded a bunch of photos of us onto a digital frame he’d given me, which I no longer even had. Anything to keep himself in my mind.

So yes, NO CONTACT is key to recovery.

MyRedSandals
MyRedSandals
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

PeaceSeeker,

Keep reaching for Meh because it’s so worth it. My daily motto was, “Seek clarity, not confusion”.

I agree with your comments about NC driving them nuts. My FW was never as overt as yours; he was subtle… mostly whining to anyone who’d listen that he was “confused” as to why I didn’t want to be his BFF when we had so much history together. Dumbass, it’s the history that makes me want to get as far away from you as possible! Please go away and stay away.

Last edited 2 months ago by MyRedSandals
Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
2 months ago

It took 13 hours for the love to die.

About four months before D-day, we were retired and living on our boat and he deliberately ran the boat aground on the well-marked and charted sandbar in an obvious boat graveyard I was warning him about. At the time, he was raging at me about being “stupid, incompetent and useless,” and I’m guessing he didn’t think I’d turn all the way around to defy him and see him deliberately yank the wheel to starboard. We were aground for 13 hours, waiting for the tide to ebb, and then waiting for it to come back in and float our sailboat. During that time, we were perched on the high side of the boat, clinging for dear life as the sailboat heeled further and further and I, at least, was worried about our lives, our home, all of our belongings and our dog. He sat there merrily texting away and ignoring me, except when his phone battery ran low, ordering me to go down below to grab the back-up battery. And I did, even though I was frightened and even though he was being such a shit.

Months later, after D-day, I learned that he had engineered the whole running aground “accident” because another boating couple had run aground in the same spot, the wife had gone below for some reason and was never again seen alive. (The husband says she “went to get her purse,” but I’m skeptical. The wife is no longer alive to tell her side.) My husband was hoping for a similar result. I also learned he had been texting his girlfriend the whole time I was terrified for all three of our lives — his, mine and our dog’s. If I were to die like that other wife did, he’d be free to be with his girlfriend. (He was with her before I was even able to file for divorce.)

The love died that day, as I clung to the high side of our boat, waiting for the tide to re-float us. He blamed me, of course, for “not telling him” about the sandbar he could clearly see and the enormous sign in the channel warning us. I stayed with him because we were days away from civilization, and by the time we got to civilization I had talked myself into staying because I didn’t want to leave the boat. I loved living on that boat, even if I didn’t love my husband anymore.

Then D-day came, in the midst of a major hurricane. Our boat made it through, although many others didn’t. The marina we were staying at was under eight feet of water, but the docks floated and so did our boat. The city took a major hit, and it was weeks before the flood waters ebbed to the point where there were rental cars available, the many drawbridges in the city were functional and I could safely leave the boat while my husband was at an appointment. I drove a thousand miles to the Midwest (US), about as far from salt water as it was possible to get. I hated leaving the boat, and there were times I regretted leaving my husband who, had you asked me before the nearly fatal “accident” I would have described as the love of my life. But my dog and I have a lovely, PEACEFUL life without the raging and tantrums of the abusive Narcissist. (Diagnosed — he was seeing a psychiatrist that day in a bid to lull me back into compliance.) I still miss the boat and the life I had always dreamed of, voyaging around the world and meeting people, trying new foods, encountering new places and new customs. But I really don’t miss the husband.

new here old chump
new here old chump
2 months ago

I appreciate you sharing this. What terror! I think my ex was hoping I would die, and I’ve written about it a bit, but here is an example that is true, he truly made you become a survivor of a disaster, where I still often doubt my truth. And because it was a 30 year grind of endless dehumanization, humiliation and moments of sexual violence that he either “couldn’t help’ or because he was “being as nice as he could” toward my body, it’s just these private small endless things. Yours is so real. It’s not a metaphor. Lately I think of my ex as like the Stasi, and I see other people talk about being suicidal (the Stasi had this great ability to convince many people to kill t themselves, I forget the number but its high) and losing all sense of self worth..I had great therapists, but it. took time and a massive wake up call. Then I faced the hard reality that I had been abused, found this place, and 4years ago started to feel the truth, but doubts comes and goes. I still suffer from so much shame. Coming here and seeing how everyone survives these horrors is so helpful. I hope every day even if its for a moment in the day, you can feel that freedom, free from abuse.

MrsCrumpetChump
MrsCrumpetChump
2 months ago

Dear NHOC. I hope you can put that shame in a garbage bag and leave it out for the rubbish truck. He piled that on you. But it’s not you. I hope you can peel it off like yucky old clothes you never chose but FW made you wear, or push up through the crap of it that he heaped on you, whatever that shame looks like to you… I hope you can continue to work at ditching it. And emerge and blossom like the beautiful flower, unique, that you were created to be. ((Hugs x))

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
2 months ago

I’m glad my story helped somewhat. I hope you’re free of your horrible husband!

MyRedSandals
MyRedSandals
2 months ago

RGAL:

As I was reading your story, I had a thought flash through my head… Robert Wagner and Natalie Wood. I’m not sure if it was ever proven what actually happened to her, but suffice it to say, their boat left the harbor with her on it, and returned without her.

I’m glad you survived such a hellacious ordeal and you’re now free of him. I speak from personal experience when I say that the PEACE a chump can experience in a post-apocalyptic, FW-less life should not be underestimated, and even if you have to give up a lot to get it, I think the peace is well worth it.

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
2 months ago
Reply to  MyRedSandals

I’ve never been compared to Natalie Wood before! WOW! Peace is such a blessing. It was well worth everything I lost to gain it.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago

Holy smokes what an insane story—glad you survived to live your peaceful life!

OutButNotDown
OutButNotDown
2 months ago
Reply to  PeaceSeeker

Agreed!

sleepyhead
sleepyhead
2 months ago

FW #1: it took me a while to catch on to his dalliances, and I put up with his abuse for longer than I should have, but the moment he told me he was going to kill my cats if I didn’t put up with his extra girlfriends, I instantly forgot that we’d been “so in love” and started making plans to leave. I got out within a couple of months. [Would have left sooner, but the two organizations for abused women that I called refused to help. The person who answered the phone at one of them was actually super nasty – totally indignant that I’d found their number and had the audacity to call. WTF]
FW #2: I didn’t catch on to him either, but when he told me that he was planning to get gender reassignment surgery so that he could hang out with a couple of lesbians that he had his eyes on (impulse control much?), I walked out and went straight to a lawyer’s office. [He ended up getting the surgery after a few months (don’t know how he was able to move up the timeline), but regretted it almost immediately and detransitioned. After changing his mind (and name) a few more times and alternating megadoses of both estrogen and testosterone, he settled on his birth name and gender. Shortly afterward, he had a stroke and died. I think it was the hormones, in conjunction with all the alcohol.]

Last edited 2 months ago by sleepyhead
Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago
Reply to  sleepyhead

Wow

jahmonwildflower
jahmonwildflower
2 months ago

When I first began to learn of his nearly 4 decades of betrayals,I drew a bright line and was crystal clear. He would not touch me ever again. No hugs, no kisses, no pat on the back, no hand-holding. Zero, nothing. If you are familiar with the Jewish tradition of no touching during certain times of the women’s menstrual cycle, that was it. Even though I was long,long past menopause (I am in my 70s). That meant if he wanted to hand me a book or a cup, he would place it on the table and I would pick it up from the table. No “accidental” touching. We no longer shared a bedroom or bathroom (I had my own bathroom already) We did not undress in front of each other. Zero. The love I thought I had was gone almost immediately. From there, it prgressed to getting the FW out my life and home. But the love I thought existed… it was gone. He opted out wth a horrid array of alcoholics, criminals, infected/diseased indiviuals, prostitutes. Some married, some not. Some were heterosexual and some were bi-sexual. Basically, anyone willing. There was no particular type, no particular age, though he seemed to always go for big, hefty gals. (I am very petite, fit, and slender)Once I saw what sorts of people these were, it was a lot easier to let go. I love myself, my friends, my kids. Him, meh.

PeaceSeeker
PeaceSeeker
2 months ago

Yes these FWs are shockingly (to us healthy people) indiscriminate—any human/orifice will do. Sick and sad but good for you for upholding your boundaries and getting out!

stillachump
stillachump
2 months ago

I knew something was up before I learned of his emotional affair. So I started separating myself. Then like an idiot gave it one last try at marriage counseling. He lied, lied lied and the last session I walked out. Not too long after, when he had already refused to let me ride in his car or ride in my car and other ridiculous things I decided to try to talk with him and he raged at me telling how I ruined his life and he’d been so unhappy with me for 40 years. I can’t believe how calm I was when I said one of us had to leave. And I knew it would be me, do I left. It took over a year to finalize the divorce but I had lost any loving feelings towards him long before that.

Livingmybestlifenow
Livingmybestlifenow
2 months ago

The day after I found his burner phone and he admitted to what was going on g on, or at least part of it, I instantly fell out of love. The person with whom I thougt I was in love didn’t exist and never had. Of course the fact that he had become increasingly mean and distant over the past several years did make it easier to just turn off my heater. Did I backslide? Not really, though once I was out walking the dog and he showed up and as he walked towards me I instantly smiled and felt myself brighten. “No!” I had to tell myself, “we don’t feel that way anymore.” I think it was just muscle memory. I never considered going back to him, even though I strung him along and would talk to him on the phone for three months, I knew it was over but just needed to be sure God didn’t have a miracle in store or it wouldn’t turn out that he had a brain tumor or something. .After three painful months God did not send me some kind of sign, but He did send me a beautiful feeling of peace and calm that was definitely disturbed by the near daily phone calls. I ended the phone calls, showed my cards including that I had a lawyer and that he needed one too. I have never looked back. (Well, almost never)

Learning
Learning
2 months ago

This is such a good topic.

Immediately after DDay I was still yearning for, and loving, the ‘old him’ (spoiler alert that version was an illusion in my head).

The cognitive dissonance I was experiencing was so great, that I’d be walking alongside him and then covered with sudden waves of such revulsion that I’d spin around rapidly to walk away from him as fast as I could.
It was so visceral and happened several times.

Some months later (at a time when we were living separated under the same roof because he refused to move out), he hurled a garbage bag of dog-doo at me so that it whistled past my head.

His reason? He wrongly assumed that my earlier lobbing of the said bag at a rubbish bin had been aimed at him.

I found that such a sad, humiliating, clarifying moment.

That was the moment when I saw and felt so keenly the huge gap between my hopes and dreams for the relationship and just how horrid it (and he) all was.

I feel very meh now. Not at all in love with him. He was someone I had once deeply loved, but that was only by mistaken identity really.

new here old chump
new here old chump
2 months ago
Reply to  Learning

Mistaken identity! Such a good way to put it.

Chumplet
Chumplet
2 months ago
Reply to  Learning

And he deserved to be hit in the head with a bag of dog shit.

Learning
Learning
2 months ago
Reply to  Chumplet

…🤣 Yes, I think he knew he did – so some projection on the 💩 (errant) projectile I think…

PeaceAtLast
PeaceAtLast
2 months ago

I realized I no longer loved Mr Cheaterpants 6 months and 1 week after DDay 1 when I found a photo of his penis in another woman’s vagina. Before that I was in shock and just couldn’t believe he had cheated, despite finding burner phones, condoms, WeChats, and a secret bank account. Finding that photo really did it for me. Not one shred of love left after 35 years of marriage and hoping things would somehow get better. All love and hope gone when I saw that photo.

Viktoria
Viktoria
2 months ago

Took me about 1.8 seconds after discovery.

The cascade of emotions were: confusion, realization (at what I’m discovering), horror, shock, becoming sick, and instantly ceasing to love him anymore. All in about 1.8 seconds.

GayDivorcee
GayDivorcee
2 months ago

I started a journal about 3 weeks after we separated. That was 5 years ago. Up until I reread my first entry this morning – I would have sworn that my love for him was well and truly dead by then. My memory was incorrect.

As I reread my first entry dated Nov 1, 2020 I can see that I was still filled with tender concern for his health. He had texted me a few days before that he had had a stroke. I wrote in my journal that I suspected it was due to the crystal meth he was using during the sex parties he attended in the months leading up to our separation. This was before I discovered LACGAL so I was still foolishly communicating with him. About a month later I went no contact. It was only after I went no contact that the horror of what he had done to me began to sink in. It was maybe another year before all respect, love and concern for him was utterly evaporated.

I now doubt the stroke ever happened. Very likely it was just another way to garner sympathy and manipulate me. Honestly – whether the stroke happened or not is of no importance to me now.

I was a slow learner. Of course – keeping my head in the “mindf@ck blender” for so long after separation allowed the manipulation to continue.

Good news my fellow chumps – 5 years out and I think I can say that I have pretty much reached a state of “meh”.

bababoon
bababoon
2 months ago

I knew it when I got the ick. I was still trying to work things out, mostly because of my kids, when I realized I couldn’t stand it when he touched me. I couldn’t even stand the smell of him. He became so repulsive to me. I knew I couldn’t do it anymore.
I think sometimes your body knows what your brain won’t tell you yet.

noChump
noChump
2 months ago

It will be four years next month. Worst “recovery” ever. A dozen therapists, tons of books, seminars (ALL found by me, read by me, attended by me). I had “neglected” him. But the decade-long deception and Ashley Madison and tens of thousands of dollars…

I fell out of love in drubs and drabs. In fits and starts. When you lose so much respect, it’s only a matter of time before the love is lost too.

He’s the father of my children, I will always have love for him.

But he has broken something he is unable or unwilling to repair.

And for that, I hate him.

MrsCrumpetChump
MrsCrumpetChump
2 months ago

Today is my 9 month since D-Day anniversary, would be about to the hour as well. 5.5 months since he moved out. Not sure what my feelings are (although two days ago it was the massive sobbing on the floor scenario, which I’ve not done for months). 20 years together, 17 married. After all that time and two kids, I’d say I still love him. He hasn’t been nasty post-break up, trying to be “decent” and do the right thing. And he’s not flaunting their relationship in my face. And it doesn’t so flash atm anyway. Expect to sign the separation agreement next week. Like someone said in a previous post “I feel sad that a good man fell”. But, I also know (or believe) I’m getting closer to Meh. In large part with thanks to the CN community and meditation (Deepak Chopra). I guess love and meh aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive?? Maybe as meh increases, love decreases? I guess I’m still on that part of the journey. Signing the agreement will help to move on and work towards NC (or realistically, MC, minimal contact).

OHFFS
OHFFS
2 months ago

That’s an interesting question. Meh involves indifference, which is the opposite of love, so I would venture to say that love and full on meh can’t truly coexist. The way I see it, acceptance that it’s over, that the FW won’t change and there’s nothing you can do about it is the first part of meh, then the not giving a damn about the ex anymore part naturally comes in time. It will come to you. Five months with him gone is still early days and it can take a long time. Every chump heals differently. 🙂

It’s probably easier to get to meh when they are absolute assholes during the separation. Mine was a confusing mix of assholery followed by being nice and helpful. It was just the cycle of emotional abuse continuing really. Your STBX may be acting reasonable now, but I would be remiss if I didn’t warn you that during the actual divorce, which is when the realize they are required to be financially responsible and won’t get off scott free with everything they want, he may change his behavior. It seems they often assume everything will go the way they want it to, and I suppose if you let him have everything in his favor he would continue to behave reasonably. I assume you are not going to do that, so prepare yourself.

Last edited 2 months ago by OHFFS
MrsCrumpetChump
MrsCrumpetChump
2 months ago
Reply to  OHFFS

Thanks OHFFS. I like that take on the breakdown of Meh into two parts, that makes sense. I think then that I’m coming close to my first milestone in the Meh Marathon, i.e. the Meh Half: “acceptance that it’s over, that the FW won’t change and there’s nothing you can do about”.

Thanks for the heads up and warning re potential changing behaviours 🙏. The lawyer said the same too. Gosh I should start praying for smooth settling!

LOVE your pseudonym btw!!!

Best Thing
Best Thing
2 months ago

I always read “OHFFS” as Oh, for Fuck’s Sake. Really it could stand for anything but as I read it it’s very appropriate for this website!

MrsCrumpetChump
MrsCrumpetChump
2 months ago
Reply to  Best Thing

Ditto! And I’ve never said that so much in my life as I have in the last nine months!!🤣

lucylep
lucylep
2 months ago

During the divorce. I still loved him until his behaviors during the divorce helped me to see he wasn’t a good man who made a few bad choices. He was an awful man who made a few good choices when it suited his goals. He is genuinely terrible. I hope I never see him or hear about him again. So excited for the coming days where he will no longer have any of my thoughts. Looking forward to erasing him completely from my life and memory. In the grand scheme of things- he just doesn’t matter.

Last edited 2 months ago by lucylep
Archer
Archer
2 months ago

After D day 1 I still did and I stayed thanks to RIC hopium and invested more into the marriage, the biggest mistake of my life.

By the time D day 2 rolled around, I had already been unhappy catering to a cruel arrogant FW trapped in a sexless marriage (due to his extra-curriculars). I was dragged through hell and humiliated by the gaslighting and discovery of more lies, OW #386432 and significant asset theft, hooker and porn habits.

I didn’t want to lose the upper middle class life we had built. I was terrified of single parenting. Some days I was suicidal. I pick-me danced with my head in the blender.

Then, some time between being hit by narcopath and realizing he’d considered a fatal accident for me, any remaining affection evaporated.

It’s self-preservation to remember and fear one’s would-be murderer. I see our mirage as a horror movie that I barely escaped alive.

PrincipledLife
PrincipledLife
2 months ago
Reply to  Archer

Me too, Archer, me too. It is like one step down every day…and some days an eleveator shaft down…and before you realize it, you are in hell with someone who wants you dead. Mine threatened my life and I knew he meant it. And still, I was moving in slow-mo to escape. There is also that once you file the danger skyrockets and you have to have the emotional bandwidth to face that it will get worse before it gets better.

I’m glad you escaped. I am working on mine. Here’s to the free world and us in it!

MrsCrumpetChump
MrsCrumpetChump
2 months ago
Reply to  Archer

How brave you are Archer And such a brave and frank account… I appreciate your honesty about being afraid of losing the life you had built… (let alone the very justified physical fear)… but yes, that was one of the things that took me by surprise – this overwhelming fear of the unknown with the loss of income and financial stability/security. I hadn’t before appreciated how a breakup could make you so fearful. I have a pink peg I picked up off a carpark as a reminder: I saw the peg and had an overwhelming urge to pick it up, with fear whispering in my ear “you might not be able to afford pegs one day”. Then my cortex spoke up and said “that’s just fear talking. Don’t listen. Fear only makes us afraid”. But the fear was overwhelming. And I picked up the peg.

new here old chump
new here old chump
2 months ago

Yes I appreciate Archer’s frankness. I was an unpaid domestic worker, raised the 2 children, took care of three properties while he worked, traveled for work, grew great career, hid the money, set up a new life and left. I fought to hold onto the main house, which I sold 10 years after the divorce and moved into a small apartment. I have fake health insurance, do no have the life I once had, and I hate that I still resent it, but! I do cherish the freedom from abuse more. Do I still miss my houses? Yes. Here’s something frank- I miss the couple life, because that whole world is mostly shut out to me. And I was guilty of that when I was in a couple- many many couples do not socialize with single older women. Statistically men repartner in mid life way more than women, and I also have no interest in never letting anyone live with me again, after losing those homes. My place is mine only, and that feels safe. I do get sad that safety is my greatest joy- second to that I want to say that I have a great community, and great sons who love me and I love them. I just think there is a sad state of affairs when safety is such a cherished thing – I wish it were a given, and that danger was less common.