My Son Is Cheating on His Girlfriend
Her son is cheating on his girlfriend. Not for the first time. As a mother, can she intervene?
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Dear Chump Lady,
I have a 30 year old son with my ex FW#2 and just found out that he has been cheating on his girlfriend for at least six months. Maybe longer, you know how cheaters don’t like to tell the truth. She is very sweet and loving, has a couple of kids from her first marriage.
My son, whom I love very much — but and also insanely angry with at the moment — cheated on his first girlfriend too. When he’d done that, it just happened to be the same time his father, my then husband, was cheating on me as well. I didn’t have proof yet, but suspected it. And his reaction to our son cheating at that time, gave me further reason to suspect him. He refused to say he was disappointed in our son, that it was wrong, etc. I had to force him to say those things, the things I immediately said.
My son’s cheating this time is different.
Last time, he just had a quicky sexual affair a couple of times with the same woman and then it was done. But it wasn’t done because after he broke it off, he slept with a married woman and her husband told him to tell his girlfriend or he would!
I was so freaked out when I found out. Very upset and I gave him the point of my finger and said, “Never treat a woman like that again and never ever insert yourself in a marriage again either.”
He knew I meant it by the look and tone of voice. I was not kidding. I told him just how harmful that can be to people and it was not good behavior. Not ethical or moral… the whole spiel. I told him then I was supremely disapointed in him.
He promised me he’d never do it again.
So, I can’t describe how was I heartbroken when I found out he’d cheated again and that he broke his promise to me. And I am so very sad for his girlfriend, told her that I was there for her and she could talk to me any time no matter what time of day or night. I instantly told her this was all my son’s fault and she didn’t deserve this at all. She is in fight or flight mode right now, since it’s so new. She said she feels traumatized and I told her that’s because she was.
I told my son it is time for help.
The texts he was sending these women were not normal type of cheating messages, but more like “How have you been, send me pics of your tits.” OMG. He is objectfying women and abusing them! WTF? I did NOT raise my son to behave like that and he knows it! He was crying on and off when I talked to him about it yesterday, but that did not deter me from saying this is NOT okay and I insist you get help. I told him: Call this number. Get diagnosed like your dad did. And he did it. The appointment is next week and I am going with him.
His father was diagnosed with NPD and I understand there is a hereditary factor there.
Possibly, as his dad most certaily got it from his mom, who clearly is intenstly narcissistic. I have 5 other kids and none of the others act this way. I am shocked.
So here I am, dealing with my cheater, s*x addicted son, which is very triggering to me. I freaked out the first night. My heart was pounding so hard I thought I was going to have a heart attack! Meds helped that calm down, thankfully. I still have panic disorder from his dad betraying me!
My question is:
Is it okay for me to love my son and want to help him, even though he betrayed my trust?
He broke his promise and has hurt his girlfriend and just thinks it is okay to abuse women. I want to help both of them, but I feel stuck in the middle. And he’s my son, I love him but don’t love his behavior and actions, but he needs help, like professional help and now.
Should I just bow out and let them deal with it? I did that last time and it didn’t go too well, obviously, and I already told him get help, have already stuck my nose in. She has also asked for my support and I know how much she needs it and don’t want to shut her out. But I am feeling overwhelmed and triggered by all of this!
I guess I am also worried about people judging me for sticking with him and trying to help him, instead of kicking him to the curb for being such a creep! What a mess!
Sending out an S.O.S. to you and the wise folks of Chump Nation to see what you guys all think and how I can navigate this by helping him and his girlfriend, but not losing my sanity at the same time.
Thank you in advance for any thoughts on this mess!
Chumpy Momma Caught in the Middle
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Dear Chumpy Momma Caught in the Middle,
This is not your mess to clean up. It’s your son’s.
I’m sorry, I know it must hurt so much and you’re not going to like my advice. Your son is a 30-year old man. He doesn’t need you to manage his dysfunctional love life or book his therapy appointments. What he does need are cold, hard consequences. Like the girlfriend dumping him. Like his mother distancing herself. And the family considering him a loser.
“Never treat a woman like that again and never ever insert yourself in a marriage again either.”
He knew I meant it by the look and tone of voice. I was not kidding. I told him just how harmful that can be to people and it was not good behavior. Not ethical or moral… the whole spiel. I told him then I was supremely disapointed in him.
Your cheating son doesn’t have an insight problem, he has an entitlement problem.
He knows his behavior is harmful — he doesn’t care. It gratifies him.
He knows you’re disappointed in him and were chumped — he doesn’t care. Your trauma isn’t his trauma. His dick wants what it wants.
He knows his behavior is not ethical or moral — he doesn’t care. It doesn’t hurt him to hurt others. He weighed his girlfriend’s pain, her children’s pain, and your pain and decided he’d rather see some rando’s tits.
That is who he is.
You need to radically accept that your son sucks.
I’m not saying it’s a permanent condition. But HE has to want to change. You cannot want it for him. And because he has an entitlement problem — transgression feels good! F*ck the little people! It’s good to be King! — the only thing he will feel is HIS pain. And that comes through the natural laws of consequences. People don’t want to be around him, or invest in him, they don’t respect him. Because HE IS NOT A SAFE PERSON.
Safe people have empathy. They care about your feelings and try to behave ethically. It would hurt them to hurt you. Transgression FEELS transgressive when you value the social glue — trust — that binds us all.
Your son, on the other hand, traffics in chaos. Burn one relationship, start another. Destroy that one, sucker another person into believing in your potential, but this time raise the stakes. Include small children.
When it blows up, cry and play the victim, and maybe some adult will swoop in and be your chaos janitor.
REFUSE TO BE HIS CHAOS JANITOR.
He promised me he’d never do it again.
I’m sure he promised his girlfriends he was in a committed relationship with them. Liars lie.
I told my son it is time for help.
Does your son need help? Yes. But that’s a different question than is he open to getting help? Time to trot out the Dr. George Simon axiom again: “It’s not that they don’t see, it’s that they disagree.” He knows what he’s doing is wrong. But it works for him and he doesn’t agree that he should change his behavior.
Someone who thinks he has a problem doesn’t have his mom book his therapy appointments. Thirty year old men can operate phones.
The texts he was sending these women were not normal type of cheating messages, but more like “How have you been, send me pics of your tits.”
Those are totally normal types of cheating messages.
Actually, this is a far more honest transaction. The real lie is that he pretends to invest in women as girlfriends. When what he really wants are body parts.
Therapy isn’t character change.
I did NOT raise my son to behave like that and he knows it! He was crying on and off when I talked to him about it yesterday, but that did not deter me from saying this is NOT okay and I insist you get help. I told him: Call this number. Get diagnosed like your dad did. And he did it. The appointment is next week and I am going with him.
Oh geez no. Why would you do that? Do you doubt he’d attend unless you drag him there by his hairy ear?
See what he does of his own steam. Watch his ACTIONS.
His father was diagnosed with NPD and I understand there is a hereditary factor there.
Perhaps? This is still his problem to figure out. His being a FW is no reflection on you or your parenting. As you point out, you have four other kids who don’t behave this way. We don’t control other people. Even our own children. And it’s heartbreaking to see someone we love behave self-destructively.
But booking therapy appointments and insisting on treatment is thinking you CAN control this. If chumpdom has taught you anything, it should be the hard realization that you can’t change people.
You only control you.
Is it okay for me to love my son and want to help him, even though he betrayed my trust?
Love your son, sure. You can help him by letting him face the consequences of his actions. And directing his girlfriend to Chump Nation.
Should I just bow out and let them deal with it?
Yes.
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The mental health community still trots out that old story about NPD “we can fix it if they really want to work with us”. There is not one recovered narcissist out there – because I am absolutely convinced (and so are quite a few mental health practitioners who don’t want to admit it) that this is neurological. Literally a form of neurodiversity. Nothing is going to make this young man feel anyone else’s pain. Behavior modification could be effective, with strict supervision and behavior supports. That’s not fair to any partner.
Just for the sake of discussion, I wanted to add that the view that abusive behavior and other behavioral disorders are “largely genetic” isn’t unchallenged: https://aeon.co/essays/psychopathy-is-a-zombie-idea-why-does-it-cling-on
Forgive me for getting all wonky about it but I think it’s worth mentioning because I’ve known a lot of people who spent their childhoods unnecessarily discouraged and scared that they were doomed to develop the same disorders that one of their parents had because they thought it was genetically predetermined when this wasn’t the case. Also I worry that “crime genes” theories, aside from sounding terribly eugenic, further disincentivize already patriarchal justice systems from taking custody of children away from domestically abusive parents in order to break generational cyles.
Furthermore, if you read about the history of the Federal Violence Initiatives in the US, it seems most of these crime gene theories had racialized junk science foundations and were used to implement ghastly policies against minority children, including forced spinal taps on the siblings of juvenile offenders and “prophylactic” forced treatments that traumatized children and showed zero positive effects.
I know that just because a theory might fuel bad policies is not enough reason to discount it but, especially when it comes to any idea with life and death consequences (such as the generational origins of abuse or the above mentioned racist “Minority Report” style programs the feds attempted to implement), it’s certainly a good reason to be cautious in promoting certain genetic theories and a good reason to make sure all “nurture” theories to explain generational effects have been explored and exhausted first. Considering how new the concept of coercive control is, I think a lot more research needs to be done regarding the effects of psychological abuse of pregnant mothers on unborn children.
Just food for thought though otherwise I agree that recidivism for domestic abusers is massive and very few (something like 2.5%) will ever genuinely change and, for those who do it’s apparently only with a combination of prison time (uncommon even for violent abusers much less for those who “merely” psychologically abuse) and participation in intensive “intimate partner abuse education programs.”
Some IPA programs claim better success rates in “rehabilitating” domestic batterers though the long term data isn’t available and what exists paints a pretty bleak picture. It seems that formerly violent men mostly shift to subviolent forms of coercive control in place of physical abuse in order to keep partners under their thumbs yet still dodge legal consequences. The late coercive control expert Evan Stark even warns that the seeming statistical decrease in domestic assault isn’t as hopeful as some believe because of the above shift and the fact that it’s coercive control more than histories of assault that most accurately predict risk of domestic murder.
As far as why abusers abuse in the first place and rarely stop, personally I think this still isn’t due to genetic factors– at least no more than any human being is born with both light and dark impulses that theoretically evolved from our ape roots and the fact that males of most mammal species tend to be generally more aggressive, easier to rile, etc. Instead I think abuse is a learned behavior which is self-perpetuating for a lot of reasons. At least I think those avenues should be thoroughly explored (such as effects of coercive control/domestic abuse on unborn children).
For one possible “perpetuator,” as CL puts it, it turns out it’s actually good to be king. There are a lot of rewards for being abusive which abusive men themselves reported to a very surprised therapist running a mandated abuser “reform” group in Minnesota discovered: https://dremmakatz.substack.com/p/domestically-violent-men-describe-c7b?publication_id=1199193&post_id=180336394&isFreemail=false&r=381mk5&triedRedirect=true
Another factor may be that children are also typically abused by domestic batterers, particularly boys which evidence suggests sets them up for lifetimes of chronic anger and fear of being vulnerable. Furthermore, children may learn that, in the zero sum game of family dynamics where there are only victims and perpetrators, it’s simply better to be the perpetrator. In a sense, abusing others might become a “superstitious” way that abusers self regulate to quell a constant looming fear of being victimized and deep aversion to vulnerable feelings. As some theorists speculate, it seems that committing violence helps abusers “deindivuate” and return to a rewarding, almost infantile mental state (the same mental “reward” of engaging in mob violence).
Then children might learn that emulation of a family abuser is a way to grovel for amnesty from abuse, as in “See, Daddy, I’m just like you so please don’t hurt me.” Another thing that might really cement the self-perpetuating behavior is that, aside from abuse being role modeled to young boys, the rationalization system to commit abuse is also “taught” by adult abusers. Some children internalize this rationalization system, sometimes called “neutralization” (free download of a great paper on it: https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/9/2/46) so deeply that it becomes rote and subconscious.
To the extent that the rationalization system “protects” abusers from being overwhelmed with a sense of guilt or social stigma (on the theory that serial violent offenders aren’t “biologically” incapable of experiencing guilt or stigma), it’s apparently very hard to undo (IPA programs attempt to do this but not often successfully). That’s because, without the protective rationalization system, abusers are left to face the mountain of terrible things they’ve done in their lives which is a process that most serial offenders (particularly not those whose senses of accountability are “atrophied”) can’t endure.
As a side note, I think there’s probably room to consider that some aspects of “temperament” might be heritable (if not the actual behaviors arising from temperament) because some boys appear to be easier to “violentize” than others. It might boil down to, say, more sensitive hearing or weaker immune systems that increase the impact of shock and make some children less able to metabolize stress hormones which can have toxic effects.
There’s also a theory floating around among reputable (and normally anti-eugenic) evolutionary scientists that men with wider faces tend to be more prone to “reactive” violence if threatened though not more prone to “inciting” violence. The idea brings up a very sad statistic regarding male children of domestic abusers: small boys (maybe those theoretically more prone to reactive/protective aggression?) who attempt to protect their mothers from abuse are more likely to be severely beaten and injured (or even killed) by abusers. I imagine that those who survive might end up more traumatized which could potentially increase the tendency to internalize the abuse and end up as adult abusers themselves.
Wouldn’t it be horribly ironic if a lot of the boys who had a chance to grow up to be particularly “positively masculine” are conversely more likely to be turned into adult abusers because they tried to protect other family members? Anyway, just one more reason to protect victimized parents and take custody away from abusers.
HOAC, I get what you are saying. However, since it’s just the tendency towards these disorders that’s alleged to be inherited, it’s not a forgone conclusion that anyone will develop a disorder just because it’s in their genes. It would most certainly be junk science to try to prove a hypothesis that a disorder is guaranteed to develop. Supposedly, environment can activate the genes, but not for everyone. Some people inherit the tendency, live in the same environment as somebody who becomes disordered, but the gene still doesn’t get turned on. It’s not known why, so there must be factors which have yet to be discovered. For example, a person can have the neurological structure associated with psychopathy and yet not become a psychopath. For some reason that person does not develop the disorder, whereas somebody else with the same structure does. I would love to see research that figures this mystery out, because it could be used to prevent these disorders.
I do agree that we have to be careful with this kind of thing, but if you frame it as just a genetic tendency, meaning it’s a chance rather than a certainty, I don’t see how it can be used for the nefarious purposes you have outlined. Mind you, evil minds could probably find a way to do it, so maybe my mind just isn’t evil enough to come up with anything. 😉
I think we’re making a similar point since some of these theories are so self-contradicting that they’re moot and can’t be used to generalize traits to any particular group.
But the problem I really have with these theories is that I think a lot of the negative traits being studied can be generalized to the whole damned lot of us as a species. What bothers me is that some scientists are actually attempting to designate some transcendent caste of people who are somehow exempt from the ickier aspects of “primal nature” (or “original sin”– same thing).
Like I said, I can admit that just because a theory can be weaponized and used to fuel bad policies doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily wrong. All it means is that humans in general kind of suck as a species and can weaponize just about anything. German geneticist Benno Muller-Hill who authored M*rderous Science, the first genuine deep dive into scientists’ and doctors’ participation in the N*zi T4 program, concludes the book by saying about the same thing– that he was scared in case the “warrior gene” theory turned out to be true because it was bound to be misused in human hands.
Good thing the theory is a crock though there’s a very lucrative market for “evil genes” studies (oil companies love them since they can be used to manufacture consent to drone babies in oil rich countries on the grounds these kids were “born terrorists” and the private prison industry loves them because– yay– modern slavery) so scientists trip over themselves cranking out new “crime gene” research every year. But the really funny part of these theories is that they attempt to sew up all human evil into some supposedly identifiable form while the people authoring the theories either fail to recognize their own toxic bigotry (i.e., evil tendencies) or refuse to take responsibility for how their hackneyed theories are used to commit atrocity.
I’ve read so many science bestsellers claiming to prove genetic theories by various neuro-gurus like Simon Baron-Cohen who never fail to point out in their introductions how they themselves are “genetically endowed” with gobs and gobs of empathy lest anyone confuse them with the genetic populations they’re demonizing. If you want to know whether someone’s on the side of the bullies, watch how they carefully “distance” themselves from their designated scapegoats.
I think SBC called his empathy a “genetic pot of gold” inherited from his grandparents or something in the intro to The Science of Evil. Yet he goes on to put fatwas on many classes of people (and poor Marilyn Monroe for some reason) and gives unwarranted credence to the whole “warrior gene” house of cards while failing to mention its completely racist foundations and applications and also the science questioning it.
I think GK Chesterton said it best a century ago:
Most Eugenists are Euphemists. I mean merely that short words startle them, while long words soothe them. And they are utterly incapable of translating the one into the other, however obviously they mean the same thing. Say to them “The persuasive and even coercive powers of the citizen should enable him to make sure that the burden of longevity in the previous generation does not become disproportionate and intolerable, especially to the females”; say this to them and they will sway slightly to and fro like babies sent to sleep in cradles. Say to them “Murder your mother,” and they sit up quite suddenly. Yet the two sentences, in cold logic, are exactly the same.
I’m just not convinced by any of these behavioral genetic theories and I’m even less impressed with most of the authors.
I know the mental health community wants to assume the best because its job is helping people, but I’ve yet to meet a disordered person who even admitted they had a problem and went to therapy, let alone stuck with it and stopped abusing others.
Those are terrible odds, and I can’t bet my life anymore on potential that’ll never arrive.
For certain. My ex’s therapist told him that I had BPD. Because he cheated… This dude never met me, only knew whatever crap my ex was flinging about me. Never had permission to communicate with my therapist. He was just some asshat who hung out a shingle and said he was a “therapist”. And how do I know this? my ex told me. Sure he was probably triangulating in some way, but even he thought this therapist was full of it. Icky. It was a long time ago I thankfully I had enough strength of mind to not pay any attention to the goat rodeo. (Thanks CN!)
Honestly, who knows what the therapist said, given your only source was a liar?
True, though I do believe it is partly environmental. Nevertheless, it is not treatable. Honest therapists will admit it, it’s the frauds who won’t.
Good point about environmental too – nature + nurture + environment (and maybe +’s to infinity!?).
Honestly, too many therapists are disordered themselves. I’ve met way too many who shouldn’t be allowed to interact with the public, let alone hold a license.
Totally agree! Thanks for saying it. I’m experiencing close-up right now just how hereditary narcissism and other mental disorders are, with my 25-year-old son showing extremely unpleasant similarities with his narcissistic dad, my mom, and my grandpa. It feels incredibly helpless! He’s basically only getting worse, and does not seem to think it’s a problem. He hasn’t cheated on a girlfriend that I am aware of, but displays all kinds of those unhealthy neurological qualities that in my book would make him a terrible partner. So heartbreaking 💔.
Thank you for saying what I have long suspected
So very sorry about this, LW. However, if you are having panic attacks and accompanying others to their therapy appointments and fielding calls from son’s GF, it indicates that you have some healing to do.
Your son does not necessarily have NPD, and it’s unfair to armchair-diagnose him with that based on his father’s life. It is unfair to overlay a parent’s issues (your trauma or your husband’s problems) onto a child. That’s enmeshment.
I know it’s hard, but maybe focus on your own healing instead of your son OR his girlfriend. I heard a great saying once: “Instead of trying to carpet the world, put on slippers.” Like, really put on slippers. Comfortable, warm, soothing slippers.
Well said.
Whether he has NPD or not, that is a personality disorder which likely is not hereditary (like mood disorders such as Bipolar, which can be).
His behavior, and attitude of entitlement and objectification of women, is not a disorder, it is all a mindset. It is learned. See Minwalla’s “Secret sexual basement” and Lundy’s “Why does he do that?” research.
As far as newish neurological research, I believe I’ve seen some research suggesting that “imput” can change neuron pathways, which altars brain function and emotion. Simply put, I believe we will one day have more research that confirms that porn kills love (in the minds/ brains of the consumer). It makes him unable to care about women, unable to love. I believe that my trauma story all started with porn, back when the internet became streaming. Before the internet, he was a different person. He was the loving, caring, honest young man that I married. I realize there were lying cheaters before the internet. It has always been a choice, based on entitlement and the mindset of “a man’s right to do whatever he wants” (patriarchy).
I would like to see more discussion of the factor of porn addiction in this entire subject of infidelity.
I would welcome that discussion. My FW changed as a result of porn too. He became a shadow of the man he once was and he knew it, but he didn’t really care because the porn will always be his top priority. His brain is FUBAR from it. It’s so pathetic that I almost feel sorry for him.
Internet porn terrifies me… so sad to see it become the demise of someone you once loved so. 😔
I divorced a FW narcopath whose father is a grandiose narcissist.
You are already miles above my crappy MIL who ghosted not only me but the kids once FW was exposed. And I was the one who treated her like gold not FW who screamed at her on the phone and refused to give her $300 for food while literally blowing thousands a month on hookers.
Your son does not want to change. He is almost certainly a narcissistic personality disordered creature same as his father. Serial cheating involving young children, he’s trash and continues to be trash because he likes it. Cry some crocodile tears get dragged to therapy lie to clueless therapist then rinse and repeat.
No amount of therapy will help him. Get him a vasectomy
This concerns me. I have sons and one of the reascuses the man I picked for their father used for his cheating was that it was “learned behavior”. He watched his father do it. Thanks for that, therapy!
So far they have exhibited positive learned behaviors that are clearly what I showed them. And if they decide to perpetrate their father’s learned behavior on their wives I will be squarely siding with my chumped daughter in laws.
I have five kids and one of them seems to have some level of narcissism. The rest of them have their own issues, but not that. I totally understand the desire to love your child who does bad things while hating the bad things. It’s incredibly painful as a mother to watch it happen. It’s one of the big joys of breeding with a narcopath. /sarcasm
My problem child has mostly separated herself from me and her siblings. However, my mom is about to have a milestone birthday and would love to see her grandchild one more time. I expect some difficulty.
I feel you on that. My disordered child wouldn’t even attend her (supposedly beloved) grandmother’s funeral, let alone go to see her when she was dying. She had ghosted the entire family except for my mother, but even the one person in the family she still interacted with wasn’t worth going to any bother for, apparently. I hope your mom gets her birthday wish.
This is so painful for me to read. Many years ago as a newlywed, I was alone with my mother in law when my new father in law came in and proceeded to give her a VERY detailed description of how he planned to spend his day and where he’d be and when he’d be home. After he left, she baldly explained that “he has a woman in that part of town and he thinks he’s covering it up. I don’t even care anymore; I’m not about to divorce him now that we have it made.” I was speechless. Two decades later I finally recognized the same awful behavior in my husband – explaining his whereabouts before I asked any questions, answering questions I hadn’t even asked. I believe that children learn how to adult from observation of the same sex parent. I am pretty sure that’s what happened with my FW. I think it is almost certainly too late for you to change your son. You have my deepest sympathy, but no amount of any kind of counseling is likely to change him. Many traits are in fact inherited, but behavior is largely learned by example. This is why you leave and go no contact. It isn’t just your own life you save – it is your children’s lives and the lives of their partners.
Chumpy Momma,
The first principle of First Aid is to not become a casualty yourself. When thinking about wanting to help your son, you need to be very clear about the emotional, financial and physical cost to yourself and your own wellbeing. You also need to remember that you cannot help someone who appears less that completely invested in helping themselves.
You should feel no guilt if you feel that you need to step back from him. Ultimately, it is his decisions and his actions that put him where he is now …. and the consequences that he needs to feel are his alone.
LFTT
Chumpy Mama: Your oxygen mask on first, remember? Your sons behavior is traumatizing you, very clearly. It is abuse. What if you told him that, and that he could not come to your house or discuss the situation with you as long as he chooses to behave this way? That way, you could re-establish a safety bubble around yourself.
Good luck to you, BTW. I know as a Mom you will never stop loving him, but you also have to protect your own sanity and serve as a model for the children.
Chumpy Momma Caught in the Middle, you are not caught! Get out of the middle.
You set boundaries with your son: No cheating. You were very clear in what you told him when he cheated on his first girlfriend and then had sex with a married woman.
Now he cheated on his second girlfriend, someone you knew well enough that she is seeking support from you.
Although it wasn’t clear if they had broken up, the best thing you can do for her is to direct her to LACGAL and a divorce support group, and to tell her cheater son’s history so she knows she wasn’t the first. Let her know that this situation is triggering for you, and that for your own mental health, you are unable to provide the support and 24/7 availability that you initially offered. If you were involved with her kids, it would be kind to meet with them and let them know that you are sorry that you won’t be an ongoing part of their lives, and that they are not at fault and they will be in your thoughts.
As for your son, he is treating you like cheater did, as an appliance, and one he expects to serve him for a lifetime. Crying is not a commitment to change, and it can be faked. Or maybe those tears were for himself.
I’d treat him like you’d treat a cheater partner. Establish a distance. Limit contact. And don’t do anything for him.
Yes, it’s a loss to grieve. And that may be why it’s so triggering.
Dear Chumpy momma, Younare far too late. 30 is a grown man, fully functional. What else are you doing for him? Is he living with you? At your house every night?Do.you do his laundry, are you his therapist. What you are doing is overfunctioning BIG TIME and minding his business. It’s too late for YOU to change his deceptive patterns. STOP just STOP. You have given up on your number 2 cheater you need to steer clear of all cheaters games you are caught up in
I don’t know about counseling the chumps that will.flood your home. I’d just cry and get.my self stronger. You are in over your head. I’m very very sorry
This is heartbreaking, Chumpymomma. Unfortunately, at 30 years of age, your son is probably set in his ways and will likely not change. So I think you are setting yourself up for a disappointment by being involved in the therapy. It’s worth a try, but prepare yourself for it not working and plan accordingly. You may end up having to limit contact with your own son, which is awful, but it will ultimately save you from more pain. Chump Lady is right. I’m sorry to say that your son is not a good person. I don’t mean to say he never can be, but it seems unlikely, especially if he is NPD. There is no proven effective treatment for NPD and any therapist who tells you they can change him is a charlatan who just wants your money.
I have an adult child who is like her FW father too. We are NC by her choice, probably because she knows that after what FW did to me I won’t do non-reciprocal relationships, even with close family. She was also accused of cheating by her former husband. It’s hard to let go and not try to get the relationship back, but protecting my peace and serenity requires that I do and I have to make my mental health a priority. You may find the same applies to you. I’m so sorry.
Chumps ALWAYS deserve to know they’re being cheated on. So yes, tell the girlfriend, tell the fiancée, tell the wife! If she doesn’t know, you may have saved her from weeks, months, or even years of pain, deceit and abuse. If she does know and she still chooses to stay, that’s on her.
If I ever found out that any of my three sons was cheating on their wife, especially after living through what their FW father did to me and to our family as a whole, I would not just be disappointed, I would be beyond livid. And I wouldn’t be shy about telling them as much and having a very frank conversation about how that knowledge would impact our relationship going forward. Just because I love my child to the moon and back does NOT mean I have to approve of their horribly irresponsible, selfish and disgusting behavior, especially when they know firsthand that the total destruction of something very sacred could be right around the next corner.
Would I suggest therapy? Absolutely yes. But the decision to go is his to make. I wouldn’t “send him” anywhere; that’s an adult choice he must make for himself. But if I don’t see evidence that he has an interest in leveling up, becoming a better man, getting to know himself and digging deep to discover why he resorted to gutter behavior, then I would step back and let him face the consequences of his actions.
Dear Chumpy Momma,
I think it’s time to take a step back.
Your son is an adult. You didn’t cause this situation and it’s not your job to fix it. If he lives at your house, kick him out. Stop doing him favors. Don’t give him money. Don’t go to his counseling appointment. He’s a big boy, he can clean up his own mess.
If he chooses not to fix himself because you won’t do it for him, then he was never going to do it anyway. Abuse and misogyny aren’t a diagnosis and even if they were, you can’t force an adult to do anything he doesn’t want to do.
You say his ex needs support, how so? Is she in therapy? Does she live with him and need help moving out? You can only support her to the extent you’re capable, and providing it doesn’t harm your mental health. Moral support is one thing, but that doesn’t mean you need to stay on the phone with her for hours at a clip. You need to set boundaries, with her and with yourself.
I’m sorry your son put you in this situation, it’s terribly unfair. But see him for who he is and don’t take responsibility for his life choices. We do the best we can raising kids and after that, it’s on them. Put on your own oxygen mask and prioritize yourself, you deserve it.
I wasn’t kidding about that vasectomy. Don’t have this serial cheating FW bring innocent children into the world to hurt and abuse. He needs an Urologist a million times more than a therapist (who’s likely clueless or ineffective anyway)
I think it’s a great idea and worth a conversation between Chumpy Momma and son. “Hey Son, why don’t you get the snip? The last thing you want is to get someone pregnant and be having responsibilities and paying child support for the next 18 years…”.
Am I correct that vasectomies are potentially reversible?? And can sperm be stored like eggs?
It NEVER occured to me to ask now xh to get a vasectomy after he left me, until someone suggested it to me. I am beyond grateful they suggested it. And very grateful he did. Even if it was the OW that drove my husband there…
Others’ reproductive decisions are not my business. That’s how I look at it.
This person is coming to us for support. Sterilizing her child isn’t a helpful comment. And if the guy goes to therapy, God bless. It’s just not mom’s job to make sure that happens. It’s his.
The LW cannot change him. He is an adult — in charge of his own health decisions, his own moral decisions, his own reproductive decisions. LW has better things to do than to try to fix or control him.
Underrated advice in this thread.
So, I wanted to point out that many responses said that Momma said she told her son to call and make an appontment – not that she did it for him? She said “and he called”. And the way I read that was that if he didn’t, she would be pulling back from him. Get help or else, maybe?
And as a mom myself, I would offer to go with my son for support too, not trying to force him if he didn’t want to. And only the first appointment. I would definitely tell him he and his GF would have to take over from there.
But I generally agree with eveyone here that he has to do the work and that she can’t change him. But she didn’t indicate she was trying to change him, just trying to help him see the pattern of behavior and seek help! But if it’s causing her stress and stuff, then yeah, she should pull back and watch from the sidlines.
Him making the call and going to the appt might mean he desires change, but desire for change and making change are two different things.
And for the learned behavior, I think it is a combo of nature vs. nurture. Children live what they learn, for sure, but then again, things like brain structure and genetics could play a role. We don’t know about things like that since humans don’t know the brain very well, but I think it’s a strong possiblity to be both.
Good point I think about learned behaviour, and the role of nature, nurture, and as OHFFS said above, environment. I don’t think it can bs too cut and dried- countless factors and experiences shape us. You can have kids from the same family seeing a behaviour modelled e.g. cheating, but not ALL those children will become cheaters, because of different internal wiring, values, etc.
Good way to put that, “internal wiring”. I think that’s why when people have more than one kid, they all are different, yet similar. I know my kids are all different and have different personalites, etc., but at the same time, were all raised in the same house and do share some similar traits. But like you said, not cut and dry.
Thanks ChumpyGirlKC. I thought all my kids would turn out like #2 child… the standard issue kid! I have learned from Firstborn about “internal wiring” … it’s humbling! I’m not the pious parent I would have been if they all turned out like #2 child. Thankfully! 😆
If your son could watch what you went through and still cheats habitually in relationships, he’s missing a conscience or empathy or both. And I also think she thinks she raised him better than she did!
She needs to tell him he’s an adult and to get help, but you’re going tell whomever he dates that he isn’t a monogamist. That is fair and honest, because after that, he can prove you wrong to his partner or she can decide she doesn’t want to take a chance with him. Regardless, you have told her the truth, and it lets him know that you’re not going to sit idly by and have him ruin some woman’s life. Think of it this way: if you knew he was a thief or a drug addict, when you want to tell the unsuspecting girl?
People will probably judge me for how I raised my eldest… in fact I used to judge me harshly too. When he was nearly three my next child was born. And it suddenly dawned on me “Firstborn isn’t all my fault!”. They were so totally different even as babies. I can see how people would think Firstborn, now mid teen, is poorly parented, but it turned out he is neurodiverse and “normal” parenting techniques and strategies are essentially useless. Goodness knows I have tried numerous books, courses, arghhhh!! I have learned not to judge mommas for all their children’s behaviours. I believe Chumpy Momma has done a great job, and it can’t have been easy.
I mean this in the kindest, loving auntie tone:
This is not an insight problem. He didn’t need you to explain that cheating was wrong the first time. He knew it was wrong, he just didn’t care. He’s not going to stop because he was scolded. The fact that you thought it was appropriate to try to control his behavior in this way indicates you have some wounds that are still open.
Please take care of yourself. Keep your own healing in the forefront, and all the best with your journey.
Dear Chumpy Momma
Oh my gosh… my heart goes out to you. I think you are doing amazing to even have the wherewithal to write this letter.
I agree with the others, remind yourself that he is his own person and you can’t control him, but you can control what you do. And maybe working out some boundaries FOR you, that help protect you. It might take you a few goes to work them out, as you have an awful lot going on inside. Note: “controlling him”, is not the same as “helping-him-from-within-your-boundaries”.
You commented “what will people think if I don’t kick him to the curb?” I never used to swear, but now I’d just say “F*ck’em”. Just do not care what anyone else thinks about what you do or don’t do. Because those people are not his mother. They don’t have YOUR HEART or YOUR LOVE for YOUR SON. So in all the hurt and pain and turmoil, try and find a place of calm where you can sense in your heart what YOU know is the right thing for YOU to do.
I have a son who is difficult to parent. Sometimes I ask myself – if he was gone, what do I wish I would have done differently? Not won every battle that’s for sure. Or ask yourself, if you were on your deathbed, what do you not want to be regretting? E.g. I regret kicking him to the curb? Or I regret not kicking him to the curb? (Not that it’s as black and white as that). My boy is half your boy’s age… I can’t imagine the deep pain to be in this position and feel so torn. So please be aware and read all this bearing in mind my kids are teens, so I have no experience with adult children. Except that I guess I was one myself once… and I’m grateful my parents helped me when they could. Being 30 doesn’t always mean you have your sh*t together. I was still single, and between careers then. Basically I’m just trying to say, only you know your values and your heart, and you need to try and respond in a way that aligns with those, your heart and your values.
A cheating son is not the same as a cheating husband.
Big hugs. You are doing so well. X
Cut the idiot off.
You have made his final appointment for him.
Do not go with him. He’s 30. It’s time for him to get his life together. If he is man enough to interfere with other people’s marriages or think he can manage multiple romantic entanglements at once, he is man enough to get his own transportation and get therapy.
He needs a clear and direct understanding of what the expectations are and what the consequences are if he does not follow through on his own. In other words, “if you do not do X Y and Z we are done.”
This is a boundary you are setting. You need to enforce it.
Love muddies that. Believe me, I get it. As I have mentioned before, my mother was a serial cheater (and may still be, I dunno). I love the person that brought me into the world and did what she thought was her best to raise me. That’s it though. For my own sanity and well-being I simply cannot engage with that person to any great extent. There has been a lot of excuse making on her end for her behaviors over the years and the expectation that I be completely OK with it. I am not in the slightest OK with it.
My mother, like your son, made a choice when it was time to be accountable. My mother chose to double down because in her mind it was completely ok to abuse my father and everybody else because the universe owed her (or something.)
That is how she lost me. It killed me to do it, but it would kill me more to go back on it.
I hope your kid grows up and starts making better choices for your sake.
Stay Mighty!
As a kid and young adult, you make mistakes. At a certain point in your life growing up you decide who you want to be and how you want to live your life. Age 30 is a bit old, but you never know, maybe he will decide to be a better man. If not Im sorry its hard as a mom to think your kid sucks.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree with the hereditary statement.
NPDs are not born this way. They are MADE this way.
A child that comes into this world as pure. Through abuse, they make a CHOICE to become this way.
Children of the same family, raised under the same conditions: not all turn out with NPD, because not all of them CHOOSE to become narcisistic.
Something that you won’t find in psychology books is the demonic factor: they all act from the same script. We all need to take a deeper look at the spiritual realm.
“Is it okay for me to love my son ” Of course, he is your son until the end of days.
But don’t confuse love with control.
You fulfilled your duty of educating him. Now he is a grown up man and he gets to live his life as he pleases. You may not like it, but it’s his life.
You are free to tell him your opinions.
You may give him advice IF he asks for it.
But you may not control his life. You are committing a karmic sin if you do.
Sorry if this sounds too harsh, but this need of yours to control your grown up son is like castrating him.
Feel free to RE-act to his actions and distance yourself from him. Give him consequences like you would give any another person. Tell the chump, offer her support if you want to, choose sides. Be in control of your actions, not his.
One question though: how was his relationship with his father? Often, this need for sex with many partners comes from a need of validation.
I would book a counseling session for myself, to calm my control urges and my nerves.
Something to explore (I’m not recommending) in finding answers to “why” are QHHT sessions. But only with a trained psychologist.