I’m Too Old to Leave Him

too old to leave him

She just discovered her partner’s hooker habit, but fears she’s too old to leave him. She wants a man to share things with and he says he loves her.

***

Dear Chump Lady,

I am about to turn 70, and my partner of 12 years is a serial cheater.

A year ago, a woman contacted me and told me she had been his mistress for the last two years!

He did not deny it, says he loves me and wants to be with me, but he will not talk about the affair at all. Mistress is no longer in the picture. Two days after she contacted me, she had an accident and subsequent craniotomy and will be in a rehab facility for the rest of her life.

She will never walk or talk again and is spooned soft foods. She is 43, he is 75. Also, she has a police record for drugs, and she doesn’t have any teeth!

To say I am still reeling from the confusion and shock is an understatement. Since then, I was told by his daughter he has a “hooker habit.”

Backtracking a little, I had become a widow at 54 years old, and he is the only man I dated. My problem is I don’t want to get out there again, yet I want to have someone to share things with. I have three daughters and nine grandchildren, but they do not fill the void.

I do not need this man.

Fortunately, I do not depend on him financially. I still own my own home. But I cannot move on. I am in a constant state of depression and loneliness. I have a therapist, and she says to dump him. The longest no contact I have been able to go is 48 hours.

Lost and confused and too smart for this shit.

Toni

***

Dear Toni,

You are NOT too old to leave him. And yes you CAN move on. If you want to.

It’s time to have a hard look at your values.

My problem is I don’t want to get out there again, yet I want to have someone to share things with. I have three daughters and nine grandchildren, but they do not fill the void.

So, you’re saying you’d rather have a boyfriend to share time with than your own children and grandchildren? And you’re pushing 70?

Actuarily speaking, most women over 70 will be outliving men. It’s not as if keeping a total fuckwit around is a winning strategy against loneliness. Wouldn’t you rather invest your one precious life in other ways, with better company?

Let’s talk voids.

We all have the human need for connection. That need isn’t a “void” so much as a basic human trait. People who have actual VOIDS — as in “empty elevator shafts where their souls should be” — are people like your boyfriend. They don’t actually connect, and do deep intimacy, they fake it. Being around these sorts of barbed wire monkeys actually make you feel lonelier. But they present the illusion of connection, and so you’ll take it, because you’re too afraid to leave the cage and find real monkeys.

The other possibility is that you’re also shallow and you’re okay with fake, shallow connection because you prefer the illusion of being coupled.

I don’t know you, but I’d like to believe you’re not that sort of person. I’d rather believe you’re in shock and wobbly right now. And you’re being mindfucked.

There are many ways to combat loneliness and the need for connection. Further investment in a guy with a hooker habit is not one.

A year ago, a woman contacted me and told me she had been his mistress for the last two years!

So, for two of the last 12 years, he’s been lying to your face every day and risking your health. My cynical Chump Lady take is that this guy has a lifelong secret sexual basement. You don’t get to be 73 and suddenly take up a hooker habit.

WHY IS THIS OKAY WITH YOU?

Do that work on the shrink sofa. WHY IS THIS ACCEPTABLE? Do you believe a narrative that men can fuck hookers and it has no repercussions in your life? (STDs say otherwise.) Do you need a man’s validation (ANY man’s?) that you matter? How important is couple status to you?

He did not deny it, says he loves me

Oh yay. You win the pick me dance. That is my sarcasm font.

and wants to be with me

I’m not reading the apology here. I’m reading this guy thinks he’s hot shit and oh hey, don’t worry, he still loves you. Isn’t that special? He will still grace you with his hooker-fucking presence!

but he will not talk about the affair at all.

Of course not. Secret sexual basements are secret. No girls allowed in the clubhouse. Unless they’re paid by the hour.

She will never walk or talk again and is spooned soft foods. She is 43, he is 75. Also, she has a police record for drugs, and she doesn’t have any teeth!

I feel sorry for her. This isn’t an “affair” — I seriously doubt a drug addict living on the margins of society wants a relationship with a 75 year old man for his wonderfulness. She’s a paid receptacle. And it’s cost that woman her health. And he’ll shrug and move on to his next receptacle because that’s all she is to him.

Don’t think you matter to him either.

You’re the front of normalcy. His age-appropriate girlfriend. The respectable facade that conceals his hooker habit. If you dump him, he’ll just move on to his next vulnerable widow.

To say I am still reeling from the confusion and shock is an understatement.

You’re grieving who you thought he was and the relationship you thought you had. Now that you know the truth (or probably a small portion of his double life), you need to protect yourself and accept that you don’t know this man at all.

Since then, I was told by his daughter he has a “hooker habit.”

Nice of her to tell you this 12 years in! Maybe they wanted to believe he’d changed. They liked and invested in that facade too. Oh look, Dad has an age-appropriate girlfriend.

Let’s dwell for a minute on what “hooker habit” means.

It means he buys women for sex.

He doesn’t care that they are not attracted to him. In fact, that’s part of the turn on. He gets to fuck women who decidedly do not want to fuck him. He enjoys the degrading, transactional nature of this. They service him.

Handmaidens in service of his dick.

Do you want to be a handmaiden? Do you enjoy the patriarchy? Are these the sort of values you want in a partner? Because you have a choice.

I had become a widow at 54 years old, and he is the only man I dated.

So you met him when you were vulnerable and recently widowed. I don’t know the quality of your marriage, but if you were widowed young, you can do hard things! Maybe it’s time to learn how to be single.

I do not need this man.

Make this your mantra.

YOU DO NOT NEED THIS MAN.

Fortunately, I do not depend on him financially. I still own my own home.

Good. Does he depend on you financially? Does he live with you? Put him OUT. If he has enough disposable income for sex workers, he has enough for rent elsewhere.

But I cannot move on.

Yes you can. Stop being ridiculous. It’s not outside the laws of physics for you to leave a fuckwit. It’s emotionally difficult and you don’t want to. (Because the dream of him being who he pretended to be is so alluring).

Of course you can move on.

Unless you really love Chlamydia. Or need a plus-one for bingo that badly.

I am in a constant state of depression and loneliness.

Because you’ve tethered yourself to a freak with a double life. It would depress anyone. You’re lonely because he’s not authentically connected to you and he’s not capable of authentic connection with anyone. Let go and invest in people who can love you back.

The longest no contact I have been able to go is 48 hours.

Go 49. Then 50. The spell will break eventually. I promise you’re going to wonder what you ever saw in this guy.

I have a therapist, and she says to dump him.

I’m in total agreement with your therapist. And do you know how lucky you are to have a GOOD therapist who says “dump him” when she could sell you some reconciliation bullshit instead? Listen to that wise counselor!

Lost and confused and too smart for this shit.

You’re not confused. You know what you need to do, you just don’t want to do it. That’s how most of us were too — stuck in the bargaining stage of grief.

Which coincidently, is exactly where the FW wants you — confused, lost, and vulnerable to manipulation.

Show me how you’re too smart for his shit. Dump him today!

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AdmiralChump
AdmiralChump
1 year ago

Under the right circumstances, I would totally tell someone to wait it out for “mother nature’s divorce”. but in this case they arent married, they dont own a home or have children together or decades of intertwined finances (i’m assuming), and 69 isn’t THAT old to be single its not like shes 89…she’s probably got more to gain then lose by ditching him.

falconchump
falconchump
1 year ago

Gurrrrrrl, you are never ever ever ever too old to have peace and sanity in your life. I’m 64 and I feel you, but there is absolute joy and self discovery on the other side of getting yourself out of that pigsty you’re in. People are living longer than ever and you may well have another 30 years to enjoy yourself. Don’t waste another day with this trash! You got this!

2xchump
2xchump
1 year ago
Reply to  falconchump

My marriage was 32 years and my XHCheater was creepy 15 years in but in cycles to keep me confused with Jeckle and Hyde. .. It is never too late once you know they are creeps. Yep age 70 Divorced and never ever been more free and happy. I got rid of surface shallow friends too. They all went and I only have gold now. SOOO worth my freedom from a lying user abuser. Age 70!

VulcanChump
VulcanChump
1 year ago

Toni, he is NOT worth your later years!

Braken
Braken
1 year ago

Toni,
This man is a liar and a predator. You are smart, independent and have your own finances, but as you know life can change in an instant. Do you really want this man in your life if your health changes? If you loose that independence or acuity and he gets access to your accounts? If he gets in control of your inheritance and steals from your family? What if he finds a way to distance you from your children and grandchildren?

He has already shown a propensity to lie, use and abandon women. He probably told his Mistress he loved her, but now that she needs care he’s likely abandoned her. Take that as a warning that he will do the same to you.

If you are feeling depressed and lonely now, what do you have to be afraid of? You are already feeling the worst. If you end things with him now, you will not be less lonely, but you will have space in your life for healthier friendships and relationships. My Grandmother met her last partner at age 81 and they lived together in assisted living until their last days (age 91, so 10 years!). She met him volunteering at Bingo in the local VFW.

You still can volunteer, go to church, and find ways reconnect with your community and people around you. Your loneliness is already here, and evicting him from your life will only improve matters.

It’s ok to need help. To tell your family you could use some support. Have your children help you send a last message then assist with blocking him from your phone/Email, change your locks, and spend time distracting you. Write down a list of people you can contact instead of him. Everyone from your therapist, friends, online communities, family, church community, volunteer group, crafting group or book club. Perhaps have your grand children teach you their favorite story based video games, books or tv shows.

You are mighty, and we are here for you.

Last edited 1 year ago by Braken
New Beginnings
New Beginnings
1 year ago
Reply to  Braken

Great concrete suggestions, Braken, for creating a new, fulfilling life!

ladylawyer
ladylawyer
1 year ago
Reply to  New Beginnings

Perhaps a little condescending though, assuming she needs assistance in blocking him?!

Braken
Braken
1 year ago
Reply to  ladylawyer

I didn’t mean to be condescending, I am sure she is smart and capable. But all of us need help, support and perhaps a bit of an external accountability sometimes when we’re struggling.

LW mentioned feeling unable to go more then 48 hours without speaking with him.

In my hard breakup, I had a trusted friend help me. All of Ex’s texts and emails got auto-forwarded to an external folder. When I was feeling wobbly, she would check them for me and pass on any logistical details. She would help me craft a neutral response to keep moving forward. His barbs didn’t bother her as deeply because she wasn’t as emotionally involved. Her input and lens helped me not get sucked into his guilt trips and excuses. She acted as an in person UBT until I built my own!

I was intellectually capable of doing these things, but after years of manipulation having someone I trusted act as a shield really got me through until I had enough emotional distance to set boundaries myself. I feel forever indebted to her, and have done the save for other friends.

New Beginnings
New Beginnings
1 year ago
Reply to  ladylawyer

Hmmm… I didn’t see it as ‘assuming that she needs help’ but rather that if you are struggling and need help, it’s OK to ask for support. And your children may be a good support resource. The poster mentions ‘help with blocking him’ as one example.

Asking for support does more than just give you assistance with stuff you may find hard – but letting them know that you are doing this creates a support group to turn too when you need a little bit more strength to continue on the path that will set you free.

kokichi
kokichi
1 year ago
Reply to  New Beginnings

Right, on a certain level it creates accountability because other people are holding your hand in the process.

FuckWitFree
FuckWitFree
1 year ago

It is never too SOON to leave a deceptive and abusive situation. It’s not a number. It’s not an age. If someone harms you by lying, cheating, denying reality, they have already blown up the relationship and expect you to ENJOY living in the rubble.

Chumpty Dumpty
Chumpty Dumpty
1 year ago

Ladies and jellypots, if you can go it alone financially, you are free! Don’t waste another single precious second! What I wouldn’t give to be in your shoes!

Adelante
Adelante
11 months ago
Reply to  Chumpty Dumpty

Perspective is all, isn’t it? I hope you find a way to be free of your cheater.

Stepbystep
Stepbystep
1 year ago

Toni – I’m hoping your heart just needs to catch up with your brain. That will happen with action, so perhaps that’s what you’re really asking?

You wonder what you’ll do instead of being with him?

You can choose to do those things which are healthy and fulfilling for you. Time with family, community, nature. Turn your house into your home. Take care of your physical health and emotional well-being. Be a friend to others.

And that’s just the start. That’s the foundation for your new life which doesn’t require a man. No contact with him and no dating for now.

ChumpNoMore
ChumpNoMore
1 year ago

Hey there, a couple or more of random musings. I do get very lonely at times and it’s hard. I do all the things to stay connected, nurturing relationships, volunteering, going out etc. Then some days I see no-one and it hits me really hard. I turned 67 this year BTW. However I will never, ever give up my uncomplicated, mostly satisfying and meaningful life of independence and autonomy for a shitty relationship. Just. Not. Worth. It. The odd bout of loneliness is as nothing compared to the heartbreak and mind fuckery of being abused by an intimate partner.
Last year I was in contact with a fellow Narrowboat owner here in the UK. Never actually met her but there was talk of me helping her move her boat. Didn’t happen but we stayed in contact. She was living with an abusive alcoholic. She tried a few times to dump him but always took him back because of loneliness (or trauma bond). Her descriptions of his abuse were just awful. But she wouldn’t leave him. (I get this too : I think the average leaving attempts us 7) She always cited loneliness as the thing that drew her back to her abuser. It was so sad. She was then diagnosed with advanced bowel cancer and social services found her a safe place to live because he had trashed the boat thoroughly and it was a health hazard to someone on chemo. She died very shortly after having found no peace. Utterly tragic.

Loneliness is not inevitable and small amounts are bearable, especially if therapy can help with childhood issues around abandonment and isolation (I know about this only too well). Don’t settle for less.

Shadow
Shadow
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpNoMore

That poor woman! At least she had you to give her some emotional care, even if she didn’t take up your offer of practical help to escape. I bet that meant more to her than you realise, bless you for it!
And also, isn’t being with a man who lies, neglects, cheats and abuses you in any way , shape or form even lonelier than actually being alone? I still get a small bit lonely sometimes because my son has his job and his mates and that’s only right, and my friends are in England and I am still stuck here for now with no life and no mates. My company is mostly via Face Time and the chats with my son, albeit just having him living here is comforting whilst I am stuck here. Can’t wait till I’m back in England though and he can’t wait to go to Oz! But I have realised I was always a bit lonely with X, because I could never have a deep conversation with him, and in the devaluing stage, I felt even more alone when he was IN the house than when he was off galivanting with his trampy “mates” and doing the dirty on me with his teenage slappers!
At least when I am completely alone in the house, or out and about, I have peace of mind because he can’t use and abuse me anymore PLUS it’s given me a big confidence boost to acknowledge what I have gone through the last 18 months! I haven’t got there yet, I’ve had plenty of wobbles but bloody Hell, I feel proud of myself! OP, you will too if you just bite the bullet! In fact, you’ll be in awe of what you’ll be able to do once you’ve rid yourself of that man! G’wan you Good T’ing, as they say here in Ireland!

walkbymyself
walkbymyself
1 year ago
Reply to  ChumpNoMore

I didn’t realize until after I left, but nothing is as lonely as being stuck in a bad relationship.

New Beginnings
New Beginnings
1 year ago
Reply to  walkbymyself

“I didn’t realize until after I left, but nothing is as lonely as being stuck in a bad relationship.”

So true!!

LookingForwardsToTuesday
LookingForwardsToTuesday
1 year ago

Toni,

There are worse things than being single, and at the top of the list (at least as far as I am concerned) is being in the wrong relationship with the wrong person. This is not about “being too old to start again” ….. this is about realising that you deserve so much more than he offers or will ever be able to offer you.

LFTT

Kate
Kate
1 year ago

First thought when I read ‘mistress’ had an accident 2 days after she told you was ‘really? Was that arranged?’ And as bonkers as it sounds, trust that these people do the most extreme things – he had a whole secret life for 12 yrs that you couldn’t imagine.

I felt the same in Nov ‘23. 37 years with my husband, turning 60. How could I be on my own after all those years. Who even was I, if not K & N? Turns out, I can be happy, fulfilled, braver, more confident than I ever thought possible. Excited about what I’m finding for my new life. The only thing I worry about is finances as I will be considerably worse off after divorce. But I am not just surviving, but THRIVING 11 mths on. I just had to go through some pain to get here. Meanwhile, he continues doing the same, arrogant, selfish things, expecting a different result. Maybe it will work and she’ll have much lower standards than me. Ok, whatever.

Adelante
Adelante
11 months ago
Reply to  Kate

My first thought was the husband was lying about her “accident.” I wonder whether the LW checked to see if he was telling the truth. Not that it should matter. He needs to go.

Shadow
Shadow
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate

You’re right, it IS indeed strange that the poor woman is involved in a catastrophic, life ruining “accident” so soon after she grassed on the OP’s cheat, isn’t it?
After all the horrifying story’s I have read here on CL, the evil things that FWs have done to members of CN, and the sly, creepy creature my own X has turned out to be, only using the most subtle, insidious physical force and so rarely, NOTHING would surprise me now! There seems to be nothing too low for cheats to stoop to! I only have to remember poor Gisele Pelicot to know that!

Last edited 1 year ago by Shadow
hush
hush
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate

THIS!! My mind immediately went to how he could have contributed to and/or intentionally caused the OW’s accident as punishment for the OW telling on him to OP, his primary/community mask supply.

Secret sexual basement dudes are extremely dangerous. There is no conscience there. Stay safe, OP. Keep him out of your home.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate

I immediately wondered the same thing– if the outcome was somehow intentional. The junkie mistress drops a dime and then is suddenly in a near fatal accident? Whether this is because she was disposed of or because spilling the beans was part of her spiral into a suicidal meltdown, the timing seems too coincidental.

Formerchumpnowbride
Formerchumpnowbride
1 year ago

Even if it wasn’t intentional on his part, and I don’t give someone like him the benefit of having that much foresight to pull something like this off, his response is equally as important. If she was his mistress for two years and he treats her accident like this, this is likely the best he would have to give Toni should she need any support at all.

I had PPD and was seeing a therapist. My fw often said he thought I was making it up for attention and he was worried that I might talk to my therapist about him, and she might not like him because of it.

This is how far a fw goes to make your life about them. They do not have the capacity to care about you. Not long after was my DDay. It was devastating, at what I felt was the worst time in my life, I was so vulnerable. They suck.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

The capacity for inhumanity is a red flag even if someone enjoys cudgeling incarcerated murderers (terrible case of death row abuse going on in Alabama at the moment). But some abusers have different tiers of dehumanization, probably sometimes according to how much they’re driven by misogynist dichotomies– so-called “Madonna-whore” dynamics.

Even aside from that, it seems liars don’t actually like, trust or respect other liars and what could be better proof of someone’s untrustworthy character than knowingly participating in an affair? Researchers even did a study of promiscuous people and found out they try to avoid hanging out with other promiscuous people in public which is kind of funny.

It’s a warning to all prospective affair partners but at least they got the warning from the get-go while chumps didn’t. For many cheaters, there’s “wife material” and “disposable” and that twain does not meet. It all sucks, it’s all objectifying and no one should trust a person who does that to anyone. But the dichotomous abuser might stick around a little longer as his wife appliance starts to break as opposed to when the affair partner does. So much the worse for wife-appliances, right? One of the deadly dangers in situations like this as that some cheaters lobby to stay with chumps.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
jahmonwildflower
jahmonwildflower
1 year ago

i am sorry you are here. I get it. I am long past 70, so I get that part. I was with my ex FW for a tad under 40 years, one child, all the trappings of marriage. I took the marriage vows seriously, he never did. He had a habit of lots of women, incl hookers. He liked bis, too. It took about 2 years for the callus from my ring to wear off. I destroyed it and buried it. I am fine now, years later. I am single. That is fine. You will be fine. You are enough. You will find friends and have a good life. My ex FW is in a facility now and I do not have to ever visit or advocate for him. It is not my problem. I got to the gym, travel and enjoy life. I worked hard all my life. My final chapter is good, and you can have it, too.

walkbymyself
walkbymyself
1 year ago

I am 68, and if I can survive without a romantic partner, anyone can. I have developed close healthy friendships with women my age and older. We do everything together (except that one thing) and chances are we’ll all grow old together.

Step one. Take a sheet of paper. Draw a vertical line down the middle. At the top of the left hand side, write “Things That Are My Problem” and at the top of the right side write “Things That Are Not My Problem“.

Okay? Figure out which side of the page “hooker is suffering the consequences of having squandered her health” goes on.

Next, figure out which side of the page “dirtbag fuckwit is depressed because hooker is no longer available to receive his semen”.

Your assignment this week is to fill the entire page, hopefully all down the right-hand column.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago

Toni, no wonder you are depressed and lonely. You discovered your partner of 12 years has been cheating on you, probably the whole time, most recently for two years with a toothless addict with a police record–and then learned from his daughter that he has a hooker habit. My guess is that you are feeling humiliated and are lonely because other than your therapist, you are keeping this information to yourself, to protect your own reputation as well as his.

You don’t have to protect him because you think it would reflect poorly on you. I learned to share how my ex of 40 years stupidly fell for a catfish scam and sent tens of thousands of dollars a week to an online AP who was supposedly a hot young American babe, even though after the one brief phone call they had, he emailed “her” that she sounded like a man and he couldn’t understand a word.

I also wonder if you are holding on because you are approaching a milestone birthday and want to celebrate it with the belief and appearance that you have a partner, are in a committed relationship, and still desirable. If that’s the case, consider that if his daughter knows about his serial hookers, chances are so do other people you know. Even if they don’t, what are you saying to yourself about your value and worthiness? You thought he was terrific. Now that you know the truth about him, why keep him in your life for one more day? You’ll feel a lot more powerful if you dump him and don’t turn back.

Finally, based on my own experience when my husband assaulted me after discovery, I wonder if the OW’s injury really was an accident. It’s possible that he caused it and they either jointly covered it up, or that due to her brain injury, she doesn’t recall the accident. That’s not uncommon with brain injuries. It’s very odd that OW had a major accident two days after she told you about their two-year affair. You say that AP refuses to discuss it, and now OW will never be able to speak again. Did law enforcement investigate her accident?

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  GoodFriend

Law enforcement tend not to do no-stone-unturned investigations for injured women with criminal histories. Investigations don’t tend to be very enthusiastic even for mysteriously injured women without criminal histories (when I was assaulted by a workplace stalker, the first detective on the scene “forgot” to put film in the camera to photograph my injuries) unless they hit the six o’clock news. That’s the world we live in.

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
1 year ago

I speak as an elderly chump. 72 now, 67 when I discovered the cheating. I had no hesitation in throwing out the piece of shit immediately and starting divorce proceedings. I had no children with him, so to an extent, that made it easier, but then, neither do you. I can sympathise up to a point, with your desire to be coupled, because it can be lonely when you’re not, and it seems as if everyone else is. The question is, which is more important to you, the desire to preserve a mirage, or your self-respect? The first thing you should do is see a doctor, and get checked for STD’s. The second thing you should do is to throw this piece of shit out of your home and change the locks. You *can* make a meaningful, happy life for yourself as a single person, if you want to. It ‘s scary, it’s sometimes hard, but it can be done. I moved 3 counties away, to a place where I knew no-one, and was total non-contact with fuckwit from the moment I discovered his cheating. That was in 2019, I was just beginning to find my feet, then pow, lockdown. *That* was lonely, but I got through it, like millions of others. 2024, I ‘ve joined various clubs, groups etc, doing things I like and enjoy, with people who like the same things I do. I’ve made friends. I have places to go, people to see, things to do. Most of all, I have self-respect, because I refused to live a lie with a liar, a cheater, and an abuser. Do I get lonely sometimes? Of course I do, everyone does. But there’s nothing more lonely and soul destroying than to live with a liar, cheater, and abuser because having ‘someone there’ is more important than your self-respect. Do I sometimes wish I had a special someone to share things with? Of course. But there are millions of us who don’t, and we manage to live enjoyable lives nevertheless. Everything Tracy has said to you in her reply is true, and excellent advice. I just wanted to give you my perspective as an elderly chump, who values her self-respect more than faux coupledom. All the best you.

Trippin
Trippin
1 year ago

Thank you for the suggestions and support. First, my daughters and grandchildren are the most important people in my life, and I love them more than anything. They strongly dislike this man and have for many years. He is the total opposite of my departed husband. They tolerated him at family events. I have already left him, and I know that if I ever take him back, they will never welcome him into their homes or lives. It is a choice between my family and my cheating partner. Of course, I chose my family, but as I type this, I am alone in my home, crying. It is Monday morning, and they are all about to start their week with school, sports, and friends. I am going to pull weeds and clean out my closet. Not exactly the way I wanted to spend my senior years.

On the other hand, I am leaving for a four-day solo trip to Las Vegas tomorrow. I booked this trip while in crisis and also a flight for him. I am getting ready to cancel his flight and go it alone.

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

Excellent. Cancel the fucker’s flight and go to Las Vegas by yourself. ” Not exactly the way I wanted to spend my senior years. ” I know, I didn’t anticipate being on my own at 72 either. I thought we’d grow old together. Pulling weeds and cleaning out your closet by yourself is surely better than trying to pretend to yourself he isn’t a shit, yes? As you do more things by yourself, without that stinking albatross around your neck, you’ll become more confident, more independent, and will enjoy life more. You’ve put your foot on the first step to freedom and self-respect, don’t be tempted to look back, or think “better the devil you know”. There will be times you feel lonely, there will be times you feel regret, second guess yourself, etc. That’s natural. But soldier on, it will be worth it. Enjoy Las Vegas. x

CurlyChump
CurlyChump
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

Keep up the progress Trippin! There was some good discussion from a post the other day about another woman that was struggling not to go to her ex FW for comfort.

https://www.chumplady.com/what-to-do-when-you-miss-your-cheater/

Scroll the comments for any tips you might find helpful. I know a few of us talked about what we did to re-wire our neurons to stop thinking about our exes. It can be done!

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
1 year ago
Reply to  Tracy Schorn

Hi Tracy, where’s the Patreon button? I can’t find it.

Formerchumpnowbride
Formerchumpnowbride
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

It will take time, you will miss some things. But you know, you can go wherever and do whatever you want now. If you want to just have ice cream for breakfast, go to a movie of your own choosing at any moment, watch only the tv shows YOU like, you can. This trip can be liberating for you. Go to a spa, get your hair done, a facial, eat the special fancy food you want and really savor it without having to make small talk with a selfish jerk. Buy a new hat. Dance to music all day long as loud as you like.

Feel your freedom. Yes the pain is real, but every day it gets less and less, until one Tuesday you realize it isn’t there. Go live your best life. Don’t waste any more time on someone who doesn’t deserve you!

Fern
Fern
1 year ago

This made me think it might a fun exercise to make a list of the things you might like to do but have not been able to do because of him. See a movie, try a breakfast joint or two, visit a museum – big or small, paint a room, cleaning closets seem like a great thing to do. Read up on cleansing rituals and try one that appeals. Go to church, or stop going, or try a different church. Is there a storytelling event you could attend? Make a list for the next several months, reach out to people to plan a “date” or make a date with yourself. When I was single I told everyone I was dating myself (or maybe I only told myself that because I was wobbly for a while). Have some things planned and another plain list of ideas for when you suddenly find yourself wanting to do something but no one is allowed. Yesterday was Sunday and all I wanted was a day to myself and, luckily, no one called me. But in the middle of it, I thought how that might make me sad if I was actually wanting some company.
Whatever you do, just be kind to yourself. You matter! And CL always reminds us that people who can love with their whole heart are stocks that trade high. Keep working on yourself. I felt I was not ready to date until I didn’t care how it worked out – even though I was ready to find a special someone.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

I think pulling weeds is a fine endeavor. Didn’t Voltaire conclude his most famous novel with the philosophical prescription to “Tend your garden”?

In any case, I just spent the summer doing it. I’d planned the landscaping in my head since first moving to this house when the kids were small but never had the time or leisure to do it until now. With kids’ college looming, I wasn’t about to hire a crew for $40 and hour to produce some generic, blah, probably chemically-infused garden so I attacked it myself both to let a vision of it unfold along the way and to save money for more expensive materials like organic soil, mulch, natural jute weed barriers, established plants and granite pavers.

Since I was born as a city apartment dweller, at first I had a limited idea of what I could feasibly do myself and imagined it would take several seasons of feebly digging around with a little hand spade. But the existing soil is rocky so out came the pickax. Pretty soon I’m hauling 50 LB bags of organic top soil around and moving 4.5 tons of gravel. The more I did, the more I wanted to do. Next year the back is getting a full makeover.

By Labor Day I was made of steel, felt like I could kick ass in a street fight and a neighbor started jokingly calling me “Sarah Connor.” Hah, if only he knew how apt that feels. One of the best things that happened is that my circadian clock seems to shift to “farmer” and, rather than having the usual nightowl trouble falling asleep at night, I started crashing at 11 and naturally getting up at 7. Quite weirdly, all that heavy labor also seems to have corrected some chronic knee problems from old sports injuries. That was a big surprise. I started thinking about the fact that half my ancestors going back to the dawn of time were people who worked the land and how natural this form of exercise must be for some. Maybe the susceptibility to sports injury was partly caused by not doing it?

My integrative MD enthusiastically agreed. She’d gotten a new toy– some machine that measures all biometrics and produces “biological age” as opposed to chronological age. Apparently the gardening stint cut my age by more than half. It probably helps that I wore sunblock, gloves and a hat. She even gave me a little print-out of this and joked I should use it as an id. This doctor is a perma-student who attends every continuing medical ed course she can find and she was actually in the middle of researching about how gardening is proving to be an ideal form of psychological and physical fitness which relates to longevity for women in particular. I told her she could call me her Frankenstein creation. Even if I was already on the anti-inflammatory diet she recommends when I started going to her and got around to the gardening on my own, I can pretend I was just “following orders.”

Anyway, don’t knock pulling weeds. Come to the dark side, we have organic rhubarb. 😉

Best Thing
Best Thing
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

Trippin – It’s going to take work to get your head straight, keep seeing your therapist. The negative emotions can screw with your thinking, e.g. “I am going to pull weeds and clean out my closet” in comparison to everybody else who all have wonderful lives (some do, some don’t; everybody gets their own). If you had stayed with FW you would be doing those things anyway, but now those mundane tasks are… contaminated (I can’t think of a better word) with your anger, grief, despair, etc. It will take time and work to build and a new life for yourself, but when it is all yours and free of abuse you can join those having a wonderful life.

hush
hush
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

Proud of you for leaving a cheater, gaining: 1) a clean closet, 2) weeded garden, 3) greater wisdom about red flags, 4) a Vegas solo trip at the perfect time of year to enjoy the desert, 5) grown daughters & grandkids who will now want to spend more time with you since you’ve left that predatory man who was stealing your energy and life force, 6) future family events free from a toxic outsider.

Peace can feel lonely, boring, etc at first, but trust & believe you will fall in love with your new life if you decide to challenge your internal narratives about having a man.

Last edited 1 year ago by hush
Learning
Learning
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

Ah, I can see Trippin (Toni) from this answer, that you have in fact left him. And that the pain is intense for you.
It’s still new and recent.
It is like the death of someone and the death of a dream too.
I’m sorry you’ve had to face that sort of loss (literally and then metaphorically) twice over in your lifetime. 💕
Love and respect to you because what you’ve done (leaving) is so very hard. You are mighty and brave.
Take very good care of your dear self and read here often for the support you need.

GoodFriend
GoodFriend
1 year ago
Reply to  Trippin

 I am going to pull weeds and clean out my closet. Not exactly the way I wanted to spend my senior years.

When I separated, a friend advised me to put my emotions into cleaning. It was great advice, because I had so much emotional mess to clean up, as well as the divorce, separating finances, cleaning out his stuff (he was a hoarder), etc.

Since you paid for his ticket already, perhaps you could invite one of your daughters or grandkids to go with you and transfer his ticket. If you have the funds, you could plan similar trips with other daughters at a later time.

And keep in mind, especially in Las Vegas, that some people make very poor decisions after a bad breakup. Con artists go to LAs Vegas seeking vulnerable marks.

Elsie_
Elsie_
1 year ago

My ex had just retired when the marriage shattered, and he took off for the beach. I had mostly been a SAHM. Once I got my head together, I told the college kids that had come to the conclusion that I couldn’t reconcile with their dad. If we had to move to someone’s basement in the interim, and if we had to figure something else out long-term, it had to be. They agreed, so I said “no reconciliation.” He kicked off what became a nasty, long divorce and closeout. I took out everything requiring long-term contact.

And we were fine. I recovered financially and bought a house some years later. The kids graduated debt-free and are acing young adulthood. And he finally went his own way when he got into a more long-term relationship.I haven’t initiated contact with him in quite awhile and don’t know if they are still together or not.

The divorce had to be. My life is much better now, and my adult kids say the same.

Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
1 year ago

I’m glad you are in counseling. I hope you keep going. Counseling has been a regular part of my life since I was 22 and I have never stopped learning and growing in a positive direction.

If you want to know how this man really feels and what he really thinks, spend some time on the RubMaps and ampreviews websites reading the comments and reviews. If you have a shred of decency and a soul, it’s sickening. Notice how no one uses their real names and there is no way to leave ratings for the johns. Funny how they all think they deserve to be worshipped by women but don’t do anything to warrant being worshipped.

If you want a man who thinks women are objects to be abused and discarded like a wad of used Kleenex, which I hope you do not, stick with Mr Hooker Habit.

ALONE IS BETTER THAN A BAD RELATIONSHIP.

This letter fills me with incredible sadness; it does not seem like she loves herself at all and is oblivious to the children and grandchildren. This man loves his PENIS, and no one else.

(My own mother only valued attention from a man and it was incredibly painful and really did a number on me that I am still not healed from at 61….)

Children learn by modeling. This alone IMHO is a reason to ditch this sorry excuse of a man.

😪

Last edited 1 year ago by Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
1 year ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

I should add that I have been on my own, not dated at all since DDay, which will be seven years next month. I am enjoying being by myself, getting to know myself, healing, rebuilding my life solid as a rock by myself, doing whatever I want, prioritizing me and my daughter. She was ten when he ditched us and will be eighteen soon. For me, it felt like the right thing to do to focus on healing me and her, teaching her how to fly.

That void mentioned for me was a big hole where ME LOVING MYSELF needed to be. Love is a VERB…actions…behavior….and when he left me AND our daughter I realized I had a lot of learning how to love myself to do.

I do NOT want to enter into a relationship from a place of weakness. It makes me vulnerable to people who are not healthy. I am very aware I am not qualified at this time to be in a relationship and have a lot of homework and healing to do.

I need to be far more healed, strong, solid, and whole on my own. All relationships have issues and I do not have the bandwidth to spend on anyone else right now.

Strength and independence is the best place
to enter into a partnership from. CHARACTER is the best criteria for choosing an intimate partner. Working on my character is the best discernment tool.

Cheaters and side pieces have no class and crap for character and are best left to date within their own species.

If there is ever a man in my life again, he will be an ornament on my Christmas tree, not the Christmas tree.

Last edited 1 year ago by Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
Velvet Hammer
1 year ago
Reply to  Velvet Hammer

PS

You’ve been alone the whole time you’ve been with him. His presence is the same as how a poker chip obfuscates the reality of the money you are throwing at the casino.

Learning
Learning
1 year ago

Toni,

It’s very hard. You have spent 12 years with this guy. You met him after being widowed. Your heart probably felt a deep contentment and joy at the thought that you had been blessed by a cherished landing with the man who would be a life companion till the end of your days.

I similarly went from a devastating, cruel divorce (FW1) to dating only FW 2, at age 50. I married him and truly thought he was a soulmate.

Sometimes, it still staggers me that I’m not married (because I love the thought, concept and closeness of marriage)- it suits my temperament and values. But it’s just not tenable with someone who is cruel. And fuckwits are cruel.

I think you already know this.

It’s so painful to realise that they’re not a soulmate. No matter which way you cut it, there’s now a cold hard and unavoidable reality that he has callously used you (and other women).

He hasn’t treated you with the honour, dignity or respect that you deserve.
He isn’t going to change. He will continue on. His daughter is alluding to a long standing history.

It’s really, really hard to give up the dream. Especially if you are an emotionally warm person with a great deal of love to give and receive.

But there would be no greater hell, than to spend your next decade, two decades, or three, shackled to a person who makes you feel like the loneliest, most unloved woman on earth. Don’t be that woman.

He’s taken enough – 12 years/ don’t bitterly regret in your last moments on earth that he took even more.
He can’t deliver the love and connection you’re yearning for. He just can’t.

At 70 you can locate that elsewhere. It will be hard (a friend described it as going back to the first day of school) – but you can do this.

Women of 70, can be beautiful, elegant, lively and wise.
They can lead the way for others. They can be socially warm, loving touchstones for others around them.
Be that woman.

2xchump
2xchump
1 year ago

No excuses! I was 69 when i filed and 70 when the divorce was final. I was enabling my husband to abuse me by STAYING in place. Then I could not look the other way when he was using other woman too.It was awful but the HR review let me know my then -husband was out of his own control. I found my self worth and it was found by not allowing him to give me infections and treat me like a vending machine. I read the story of a woman who was paralyzed from the neck down and she divorced her abusive husband. I cannot imagine. No excuses..get out.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

I was thinking the same thing CL described– that that level of “void” is generally caused by abuse. Abusers are like spiders who, aside from winding prey up in their web, also inject a poison that slows the prey down and makes it harder to escape the web.

I don’t have enough information about Toni’s situation to know if any of the following applies. It applies to a lot of people so take whatever helps and discard the rest:

From the time I worked as an advocate for domestic abuse, I learned that one of the ways victims caught in the web of domestic abuse describe the effects of that abuser/spider “poison” is a feeling of profound psychological isolation and that life is merely a meaningless trudge to the grave. A nihilistic “void” by any other name.

I’ve heard it argued here and there that this sense of nihilism has its origins in how abusers feel deep down, almost as if one of the aims of abusers is to “transfer” their own twisted, hopeless and terrifyingly empty world view to their victims, either as a sick way of “sharing” or as if they believe they can be free of those feelings by unloading them on someone else. The idea of this kind of despair-displacement can be helpful to survivors if they can recognize that a lot of the crushing emotions they’re feeling in the wake of abuse were artificially injected– aren’t really their feelings but simply a reflection of the abuser’s subconscious suicidality and despair. This hasn’t only been applied to the context of domestic abuse but other forms of political abuse. For instance, civil rights activist and poet James Baldwin applied it to racism. He called it the “politics of sexual despair.”

Whatever the reason for this, the overall point is that abusers are worse than spiders in that they mean to keep the victim alive to continue feeding from them, using them and getting whatever tf they get out of entrapping and abusing for as long as possible. And they do this by playing fireman to the fire they set or, for another analogy, the only one with an antidote to the poison they inject– the only person the victim can turn to with those artificially instilled feelings of despair and isolation. Eventually the victim is convinced that there’s no life beyond the abuser and that they can’t survive “out there.”

That “poison” can come in the form of a million little barely perceptible but chilling gestures, words and tones or it can come with periodic “fear maintenance” tantrums where they kick the kitchen cabinet that dared to get stuck or scream at the coffee grounds they spilled on the floor. With or without fists and broken bones, whether it’s all done in whispers or whether or not that rage and punishment are even aimed directly at victims or instead take the form of remote, secret betrayal (affairs, hookers, etc.) , it will all usually follow the age-old cycle of abuse: tension building/explosion/reprieve.

I think it’s no accident that cheating and all the subviolent emotional abuse that’s usually involved with it typically follow the same cycle as traditional domestic violence since, as it turns out, the violence may have been overkill all along and it’s really that cycle that paralyzes victims more than anything else. The late forensic psychologist Evan Stark who was the veteran advocate and researcher who spearheaded the criminalization of coercive control, repeatedly sounded the alarm to policy makers that the statistical decrease in rates of injurious domestic assault over the past few decades brought about by increased legal enforcement against it (because abusers hate consequences) would be accompanied by an equivalent rise in extreme forms of emotional abuse and coercive control. He recognized that, if they were robbed of their traditional mode of instilling terror as the consequences got too stiff, many abusers would change tactics and opt for less athletic or legally risky forms of abuse in order to achieve the same goal– which is basically to crush the agency out of their victims to create human marionettes.

There’s a growing view in social research that the main agenda behind most domestic abuse is to enforce one-sided monogamy– crush the victim into such an inert puddle that they can’t even consider forming another relationship– have no hope of a better future relationship– while the abuser exercises unilateral sexual freedom. But whatever the MO behind crushing victims’ agency, I think the “cycle” alone achieves this because, due to our species Clockwork Orange violent history, we’ve all evolved with a lizard brain sense that “tension building” is a harbinger of mayhem. Throughout our species’ evolution, it says something very, very bad might be about to happen.

Tension building is also like a roulette wheel which could land on any number of horrifying outcomes. Abandonment? Betrayal? Broken bones? Murder? Round and round she goes and where she stops, nobody knows because humans, throughout evolution, especially those who generally signal a kind of empathy impairment, can become suddenly murderous out of the blue. The crushing power of it is its ambiguity and how this plays on humans’ evolutionary hard-wired fear of where that roulette wheel can land. Like an operant conditioning chamber in a Pavlovian random punishment experiment, the cycle itself can induce “learned helplessness” over time.

How’s that for modern innovation? Coercive control is like domestic violence 2.0. New and improved. I have a suspicion that, as social research on coercive control continues to advance, cheating may turn out to play a distinct role in it.

In any event, victims of abuse report finding the tension building stage so unbearable that they simply want to get to the reprieve part as soon as possible, but that can’t happen without some kind of explosion, whatever that entails. As Stark warned, simply because the “explosions” within abuse have become statistically less lethal doesn’t mean the effects won’t devastate, crush and paralyze victims. Some survivors may even find themselves compulsively provoking the explosion earlier to get the tension building stage over with, a bit like taking the lid off a pressure cooker to prevent the steam from fully building up to fatal levels. Once this happens, it’s like a “gotcha” since victims are then vulnerable to the false charge that they’re “fully part of the problem” and “instigators.” They’re not equal instigators but that’s what it may look like on the surface which can lead poorly trained helping professionals to assume the relationship suffers from two-way dysfunction. The ultimate “gotcha” is when victims start to believe this themselves.

I think the whole thing is like a protection racket because part of the irony of what makes people so terrified of being alone and so doubtful of their ability to survive in the world is the chronic fear that’s instilled in abusive relationships.

Whether or not any of the above fits, I still think it can be helpful for survivors to consider that their feelings of hopelessness and emptiness may not be their true feelings at all but more like a kind of communicable disease passed onto them by abusers’ own bleak “void.” Whatever the case, the “cure” is social distancing– getting away from the disease vector and survivors– with the help of supportive people– regaining and repairing their own fractured perspectives, emotions and world views.

I’d also like to point out that feeling “old”– aside from being potentially another case of artificial “transference” from an abuser who themselves feel “old”– could almost be viewed as a form of self-soothing denial of a much worse specter: living for another several decades or more while entrapped with an abuser. Longevity would not be welcome in those circumstances so the circumstances must be changed.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
1 year ago

Fascinating, HOAC. “Fear maintenance” tantrums really resonated with me, that’s *exactly* what fuckwit used to do, as well as the physical abuse. I used to walk on eggshells around him for fear of precipitating one, but they were impossible to predict in any way, because he’d have screaming tantrums over things no rational person would even consider a problem. I knew how irrational his behaviour was, but I still tried to avoid and placate. As I’ve got further and further from D day, I’ve come to realise the cheating was actually the catalyst that pushed me into kicking him out and filing for divorce. It sounds perverse to think of it as a good thing, and I certainly didn’t at the time, but if it hadn’t been for that one deal breaker, I shudder to think that I’d probably still be there.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  chumpnomore6

It doesn’t sound perverse at all that cheating was the catalyst to escape a batterer. In my experience, the trigger is often either that or an assault severe enough to catch the attention of authorities. The thing both have in common is that they’re equal signals that the gloves are coming off so that the danger of staying finally exceeds the considerable danger of leaving.

In the case of severe assault, the signal is obvious that an abuser is ramping up violence. Any onlooker can understand this. But the risk of escalation posed by cheating isn’t as obvious to bystanders, sometimes not even to victims themselves due to how Stockholm syndrome distorts perceptions, but the balance of risk has been tipped all the same because, if victims’ main value to the abuser has been as a sexual appliance, it may be the only reason the abuser is pulling punches and letting them live– a small window of mercy which may suddenly close if the abuser decides to replace them with another sexual appliance.

The latter situation may be even more dangerous because cheating isn’t illegal and generally won’t prompt authorities to offer victims protective orders as they make their escapes. And it’s more dangerous precisely because bystanders and legal authorities typically misinterpret the chain of events. Negative bystanders will assume the reason the victim hadn’t been motivated to escape in response to more direct forms of physical and emotional abuse but was instead motivated to leave out of “jealousy” or “possessiveness” must mean they liked the abuse. In other words,this perception will lead to victims being hung out to dry even if they can prove battery. I’ve seen DAs refuse to prosecute well documented cases of domestic violence simply because victims alluded to cheating in addition to repeat assault.

Again, because of Stockholm syndrome, victims themselves may not fully understand their own motivations in the latter circumstances. Because Stockholm syndrome/captor bonding theoretically works both ways and furthermore only works to promote survival because most abusers are not entirely immune to the seamless appearance of a victim’s devotion to them and will “bond” in turn and therefore be more likely to show mercy, victims naturally perceive increased danger any time that bond is threatened. And the bond can be threatened merely because the victim senses they’re starting to emerge from captor bonding because, as one forensic researcher argued, many abusers have an almost telepathic ability to sense the merest whiff of rebellion in victims and will respond ferociously. So victims have a subconscious motivation to remain in a state of “love” towards abusers and, through that lens, may actually feel what people feel when love is betrayed: heartbreak, jealousy, territoriality, etc. And because the betrayal itself shows that the “captor’s” side of the bond is breaking, it can either momentarily prompt the victim to increase efforts to reinstill the bond or else head for the door before the worst happens.

Never mind if captor bonding is actually the furthest thing from actual love, it must appear to be so and will linger until the victim perceives they’re fully out of reach of the abuser and even out of reach of the “third party” means that abusers commonly use to threaten and punish victims such as by manipulating bystanders and law enforcement. What this means it that negative and blaming bystander attitudes towards victims may only extend the captor bonding. And the mechanism isn’t going to fade exactly when victims escape since escape is the most dangerous time.

If bystanders misunderstand this, it’s because the entire dynamic of Stockholm syndrome is a deep ruse meant to fool an abuser who’s been breathing down the victim’s neck for years and can read even the subtlest flicker of emotion or change in breathing.

At this point, forensic researchers have enough piecemeal data to make the above case:vthat domestic abuse is motivated by unilateral sexual control, that Stockholm syndrome is a given in domestic abuse, that Stockholm syndrome is not at all synonymous with “masochism” but quite the opposite, that it’s success in promoting survival depends on victims fully believing their own ruse, that the ruse will look credible enough to fool bystanders, that it fades gradually according to perceptions of safety and, if it lingers past that point, this may simply reflect the sheer depths of terror the victim was subjected to while enduring abuse or the fact that the social context continues to subtly blame and shows signs it will not support victims. But I don’t think the false interpretations will change until it’s universally understood that cheating is a form of abuse and may even be one of the main drivers of abuse in the sense of enforcing one-sided monogamy. Those specific studies haven’t been done yet or haven’t been replicated yet and, since we’re in an age when laws and policies are often based on scientific theory, policy is unlikely to change until the science is established.

Anyway, it’s not strange at all that cheating felt like the “last straw” even if the world hasn’t quite caught up to why this makes sense.

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
1 year ago

That was extraordinarily helpful to me, and very interesting, thank you! “…many abusers have an almost telepathic ability to sense the merest whiff of rebellion in victims and will respond ferociously. ” Yes! But fuckwit also used to alternate the ferocious response with a period of being loving and sweet, then back to the screaming and abuse. No wonder my head was in a mess. I’m just so thankful once I was out of it I was able to start looking back and reflecting. I think the telepathy can sometimes work long distance, too; about 2 years ago I can remember feeling particularly happy that I was beginning to understand all his ploys and manipulations, beginning to feel myself again, when out of the blue he tried to contact me. I didn’t respond, of course, but I do wonder if he somehow sensed it. But I’m likely giving him too much credit, he was probably just a bit bored and thought he’d see if he could extract any more value.👿

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  chumpnomore6

I can’t count how many times I’ve heard survivors talk about how, from thousands of miles away or across national borders, abusers will somehow reach out or show up like bad pennies at the precise moment former victims feel happy or just met the love of their lives or go on their first date after separation, etc. It happened so regularly that I ended up rejecting the rationalist view that prescience or “ESP” are impossible. But, to quote Esqueleto from Nacho Libre, “I believe in science,” not magic. So I went on a hunt for potential explanations in the scientific realm.

I think British Nobel Laureate for physics and Stephen Hawking pal Roger Penrose probably had the best explanation for ESP. Decades before he won the Nobel prize, he came up with the theory of the “quantum brain” to explain the human experience of prescience and “deja vu.” The theory isn’t widely reported, probably because it would have made a lot of people question Penrose’s sanity but all the prizes he won for physics decades later argue he was always playing with a full deck but might just be brave enough to venture into traditionally esoteric territory. Anyway, his idea is that microtubules in the human brain have quantum functions, sort of acting like teeny-tiny black holes through which information from the past and future might “leak.”

Who knows if Penrose is right but I think there has to be some rational explanation for it that humanity hasn’t conceived of yet because this is definitely a recurrent theme in domestic abuse.

But that’s not even the weirdest thing about it. The really unsettling part is that this level of prescience– particularly regarding people who are closely connected having inexplicable prescient visions of something (good or bad) happening to the other person– is usually based on love.

Think about what that could mean. Is the “attachment” that a lot of domestic abusers feel towards their victims some kind of “dark matter” version or doppelganger/evil twin version of actual love? Like the power of the connection some abusers feel towards victims somehow mimics the intensity of love while being exactly the opposite of it? How fucked up and weird is that?

A lot of people believe abusers “don’t think about” their victims at all and this is the sum of abusers’ empathy impairment. Just a cold void where their hearts should be. But I wonder if that’s confusing the goal of abuse for the reality of why abusers do it. I suspect the goal of most domestic abuse is to gain such total power over victims that abusers eventually don’t have to bother thinking about them or expending empathy on them.

Imagine sociopathy as an actual aspirational goal! But having that as a goal almost makes sense if achieving a state of cold, detached, psychopathic non-caring was intended to correct and rebel against a crippling obsession. At least this might explain why so many abusers seem to be preternaturally attuned to whatever their victims are thinking, feeling or doing even when they have no means of knowing any of it.

What all of this made me think about was whether most garden variety abuse partly stems from obsession. Several researchers who studied batterers in prison settings came away believing most were afflicted with some form of reactive attachment disorder that tended to be specifically centered on intimate relationships and which would bounce back and forth between radical extremes: on the one hand, a kind of infantile emotional dependency on partners and infantile terror of abandonment to the point of fearing annihilation from the loss and, on the other hand, a kind of toddler-ish oppositional defiance and need to prove they “don’t need the bitch.”

The theory reconciled easily with existing feminist concepts of domestic abuse since it might seem all the more insulting to most abusers that a “mere woman” should hold so much emotional power over abusers, most of whom are statistically male. But the idea isn’t completely dependent on gender inequality so could still potentially explain the phenomenon of female abusers of male partners. It’s almost like a “love allergy” where, even if the individual desperately wants that connection, once they achieve it, it causes intolerable feelings of vulnerability that also makes them want to destroy the person who inspires these unbearably vulnerable emotions.

The random shifting from one extreme behavioral pole to the other led two DV researchers to apply to batterers the political theory of “masked dependency” originally authored by social psychologist and philosopher Erich Fromm. Fromm applied the concept to “master/slave” or “oppressor/underclass” dynamics– the idea that the “master/oppressor” relies so desperately on the subordination of “slaves/victims” to achieve a feeling of immortality or invulnerability that it constitutes a kind of fragile dependency on victims.

This could in turn explain the bouts of “love bombing” that a lot of abusers engage in which, believe it or not, Nazis also reportedly periodically expressed– more or less– towards prisoners in death camps (occasional rewards or even affectionate gestures mixed in with sadistic abuse). It makes a sort of psychotic sense if someone who finds feelings of emotional vulnerability fundamentally “shameful” and compromising might also start to increasingly hate anyone who inspired these feelings to the point of snowballing impulses to punish and degrade.

I think that sews up most domestic abuse. I’m sure there are different grades of abusers and some might be so utterly devoid of human feeling that none of this applies. But a lot of this seems to fit most.

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
1 year ago

Thank you HOAC. Your posts always teach me something. x

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  chumpnomore6

I feel the same reading yours. Mutual edification society! <3

hush
hush
1 year ago

💯 Insightful & I’m saving this comment like so many others of yours here. 🎯🎯🎯 Thank you, HoaC!

Learning
Learning
1 year ago

Thank you for these insights Hell of a Chump. They resonate with me as feeling intuitively correct

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Learning

Thank you back. Any “insights” that ring true are invariably a product of group effort. If you throw some recently published study about abuse to a pack of actively processing survivors like this one (which the network I worked with used to do as a kind of UBT exercise), you’ll hear all sorts of chewing, cracking and shredding sounds as they rip into it, point out any flaws and re-imagine it in corrected form. Then ten years later the corrected theory the “little victims” cobbled together with their little “anecdata” would often turn out to be– tada– replicable majority science.

Evan Stark knew part of the gift of being “in the trenches” is getting to witness all that genius-level (his words) processing among survivors. I think that’s the main reason he always ended up being right about everything to the point of being pretty much prophetic. If you want to know which “clinical theories” will stick to the walls, toss the question to survivors themselves.

Last edited 1 year ago by Hell of a Chump
Elizabeth Lee
Elizabeth Lee
1 year ago

I was married to a man with an empty shaft where his soul should be for 25 years. And then it took nearly two years to get divorced because he was an asshole. So there I was at age 51 with 5 kids ranging from teens to college students. At the time I really, really wanted to get married again. Now, at age 63, I doubt I’ll ever date again. I am currently caring for my elderly mother. I would not be able to do that if I had a man I had to take care of. I was so much more lonely back then even though I was surrounded by a horde of kids and had a husband. I have good relationships with all but one of my kids. (Her choice) I get to spend time with my mother in her final years. I have hobbies that bring me joy and friends I have made through my hobbies.

Toni, you do not need this man. You are just keeping him around because he is a bad habit. It takes time to get accustomed to going places and doing things alone when you have been partnered for all/most of your adult life. When you were a young widow you felt totally out of place trying to live life alone. Everybody you knew had a spouse or significant other. Twelve years down the road, you’ll find a lot of people your age who are no longer part of a couple either through death or divorce. Look around. I bet you know someone who has been recently widowed. Be her friend. Ask her to go places with you.

I would not be surprised if you didn’t do all of the grieving from the death of your husband because you quickly acquired a placeholder to fill some of the roles of the husband you lost. It’s not too late to join a widow’s group and complete that grieving.

Thank God you didn’t marry this guy. That would have been a bigger mess. I didn’t date immediately after my divorce because in my divorce recovery group I met MANY women who married quickly after their first divorce and made poor choices while they were lonely and vulnerable. Those poor choices led to a second divorce and even more shame, guilt, and grief.

Sit down now with a piece of paper and think about things you can do that don’t involve this jerk you have been seeing. You can take each one of your daughters to lunch. Spending time one-on-one is lovely. You can reach out to a friend to go to an art museum or a movie. You can take some of the grandchildren to the park. Find a new hobby. There’s a great big world out there full of opportunities where you CAN find joy. This “man” only brings you misery and could bring you life-long STDs. He’s disgusting. You deserve better.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

Toni, when you find yourself trying to figure out where his head is at: Just imagine where his brain is, there are two squirrels throwing knives at each other. Pretty much sums it up. Then run like hell.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

Lol, I’m not sure if you meant that the “dueling,” quasi-schjzophrenic sides of abusers are like two squirrels throwing knives at each other but the image is perfect and hilarious, thanks.

susie lee
susie lee
1 year ago

I was just thinking of how squirrels run and dart about with no thought to the next minute; but yeah it does fit.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  susie lee

They also squabble a lot. I was imagining FWs with battling squirrels in their heads. Perfect.

Formerchumpnowbride
Formerchumpnowbride
1 year ago

One think to consider is that STDs at your age can be devastating. Simply getting a UTI can throw a woman into dementia-like symptoms, even causing kidney issues. This man is quite literally gambling with your life.

Find friends. Women who enjoy doing things and going places you enjoy. Senior centers have great ways to find like minded people to spend time with. If you are concerned about sex, and come on, we are all human, look up some of the adult toys out there. The ones for women have come a very long way. You can get all your needs satisfied, safely, without being chained to this robot who cares nothing about you.

You are not too old, and it is never too late to gain a life!

chumpnomore6
chumpnomore6
1 year ago

Sex toys. Yep, when I realised I’d never have sex with a man again, I got one. It deals nicely with the occasional sexual frisson, (less and less as the years go by 😂) and I don’t have to get up and make it a cup of tea afterwards.

Best Thing
Best Thing
1 year ago

Double thumbs up on the UTI warning. I was once disturbed by the behavior of a friend of mine and after I described her to my therapist she said “It sounds like she has schizophrenia, but it could be a UTI.” Wow.

Formerchumpnowbride
Formerchumpnowbride
1 year ago
Reply to  Best Thing

I had a neighbor rushed to the ER with dementia symptoms. It was a nightmare. Was all caused by a UTI. Our bodies are so fragile, letting a FW have the opportunity to cut our lives short can come in many forms.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago

I think the AP in my situation was a UTI vector because I kept getting infections during the secret affair despite not having been previously prone to them. It was horrible. The antibiotics I had to take for two infections wreaked havoc on my gut health and immune system and I’ve superstitiously taken daily d-mannose supplements and pro- and prebiotics ever since.

If it wasn’t the AP’s habit of having anal sex during her ongoing rawdog Tinder hookups, it might have been her ultra-processed food diet, binge drinking and general crap health. Either way, I paid for it.

noChump
noChump
1 year ago

I am not going to judge this lady. I understand the pull of partnership in retirement, the way they were raised, etc.

Sweet lady, you do not need him financially, and he is using HIS money on other women.

Kick him out. I understand at 75 not wanting to date. I understand your commitment. He is not worthy.

And do you think he wouldn’t be still seeing that other woman if she hadn’t been in that accident and now is useless to him? How do you think he’s going to react if something happens to YOU?? Think he will still be around?

Listen: He buys companionship; so can YOU. There are handymen to take care of your home need. There are even men you can pay for companionship…hear me out! You can pay for a handsome younger man to take you to dinner and a movie. You can pay for a male CNA to come watch The Golden Bachelorette with you once a week. There are even male housekeepers to come do your laundry and cook.

I’m serious.

Don’t look for love; look for companionship. Find activities you enjoy. Take care of yourself physically. Kick that sick effer to his daughter.

Nobody will judge you for dumping him. He does not love you, though I’m sure he’s fond of you. Love is an action, not just a feeling.

Formerchumpnowbride
Formerchumpnowbride
1 year ago
Reply to  noChump

The feeling of betrayal for me was second only to how ashamed and embarrassed I felt. I thought I was a failure. I couldn’t have been further from the truth. I got duped by a liar. My only fault was in loving him the way I wanted someone to love me.

People who are duped aren’t dumb, stupid, blind, etc. I know society wants us to feel like that, but they are wrong.

No judgement here either. Only caring thoughts. You can do it, Toni! You can live your best life!

new here old chump
new here old chump
1 year ago

I love how people here open up about how devastating shame is. Shame can kill is. She has NOTHING to be ashamed of. And she’ll be so proud and free when she escapes him. I still struggle with shame, and I may always struggle, but I am free from abuse and that day by day adds up, and I feel more self love and am happier. Someone here also discussed loneliness- I too feel it, but am now able to then conjure up one or more of the many of his horrific behaviors to me, and know it’s so better to be lonely sometimes than be abused. I have yoga buddies, I go out and see friends – some new, and some old ones who were on my side- I live in a city where I can go to see music, or a reading, or a dance performance. I go out at least 2 times a week- sometimes I have to force myself to- but it’ good for my mental health and I often meet new people. Too Old to Leave Him, you are not! One person above mentioned that you could be in danger and this is true. This is my worry. Please, get yourself safe for your children’s sake. They don’t like him because he’s a bad person. Your children are enough. I promise. My sons are enough, but I stay busy so I don’t bother them too much HAHA. But they are so happy to see me abuse free. One of my sons, his face- it’s a different face now. It hurt him so to watch me get abused. I watch him heal with me. I caused him that pain, but I try to not let that shame get to me. I try every day to be abuse free, and he sees that. I can spot a bad man quickly now, not that I date much, but because I am social I do get asked out. I have my self worth back, and so it would take a very special man to be in my life. And I’m not desperate because I finally have a good life. For me, the peace is something that grows and I feel adding years to my life! Take care of yourself by getting rid of him. I wish you the best. Do let us know when you are free. I am a bit worried, as others mentioned, due to the damage he did to the other woman.

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago

Yes–shame can be really devastating. I struggle with shame too, in the wake of being chumped (by both husbands, in 1996 and then in 2023–I seem to have a seriously faulty picker). The freedom of being on my own and no longer having to deal with a partner who is a liar and a user is fantastic. But the shame creeps up on me, still! Thank you for talking about this.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Leedy

I have such a memory for certain things I’ve read or viewed that speak to me, even after years and years or only hearing something once. Apparently I’m not alone in thinking certain passages or speeches are profound because I can usually find the excerpts on the web. At 48 seconds, listen to a monologue from Anthony Hopkins about how most people lost in the wilderness “die of shame.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS3itE81zeY

For normal people, shame seems to be a universal stumbling block in surviving all kinds of misfortunes though maybe particularly standoffs between the powerful against the less powerful. If I think back on all the things I’ve read and researched, I’ve been particularly interested in information that could potentially alleviate this for survivors– take some the “stones” of false shame out of their pockets that drag them under.

In the case of domestic abuse survivors, shrugging off shame and blame seems to require surgically returning those things to “sender”: putting the blame back on abusers– not to mention bystanders and society in general for perpetuating alibis for abusers and the blaming myths heaped on victims. But doing this risks getting accused of being “bitter” or “dwelling on the negative,” etc.

Oh fuck that. It’s not right. A big effort to counteract this is in order.

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago

“Shrugging off shame and blame seems to require surgically returning those things to ‘sender’: putting the blame back on abusers– not to mention bystanders.” I’ve used something like this return-to-sender technique over the years, but in a transient way that doesn’t dig very deep. I think I’ll do some journaling about this tonight, in the interest of really seeing where this “surgery” might take me.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Leedy

Maybe a better analogy than surgery might be appealing wrongful conviction. I think you’re a lawyer by trade so I probably don’t have to explain but will anyway in case others are interested. Please pipe in and improve any part of the legal analogy or terminology that doesn’t work. 🙂

If you think about it, abuse itself is a kind of “prosecution” by abusers who play judge, jury and executioner. Part of what makes abuse so terrifying is often how convinced the abuser is that the victim deserves it. The effect is nearly spellbinding– as if what this abuser claims must be true because they seem to believe it to be true. Also abusers often make that prosecution case while right in the midst of committing the abuse– “You deserve this because x, y!” Then, after the fact, abusers will either deny they committed abuse or pretend they did so in self defense. Either way the victim is falsely framed– either for fabricating false allegations against an innocent person (“bearing false witness” is on the top ten sin list!) or for being a perpetrator. And though they’ve already been “punished,” they risk being sentenced and punished again by the social context (“double jeopardy”).

And there’s something about being punished that makes people weirdly feel guilty even if it’s ass-backwards. The message that victims will typically infer in their guts is that whatever the hell they did to cause the punishment, it must have been really, really bad because the punishment was really, really bad. Never mind if what they did wasn’t actually bad or if they didn’t even do it, most survivors will still end up feeling shame. It’s a bizarre, possibly hard-wired evolutionary reflex that doesn’t make any rational sense but is seen in almost all rape survivors– “projective identification” or feeling somehow tainted by and guilty of the crime committed against them. I think it’s because they were already “wrongfully convicted.” It’s like abusers hack victims emotions.

So anyway, the job of a legal team appealing wrongful conviction is to leave no stone unturned to come up with alternative theories for the crime that takes the onus off their client. This could include proving another suspect committed the crime so, to succeed, an appeal may need to fully convict someone else. In the case of the crime of abuse, to prove the victim didn’t “cause” any part of it or deserve any of the punishment, it must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the abuser did.

Anyway, I think the onus for abuse is a hot potato that has to land on someone and it definitely shouldn’t be the victim but just saying as much isn’t enough for victims to “acquit” themselves just like a legal appeal has to be more than saying “I didn’t do it.” This is partly because even healthy relationships are complex and abusers specialize in complicating everything to the point of blinding chaos. Chicken and egg arguments get lost in one big omelette of mutual destruction. Predictably, victims of abuse will often engage in all sorts of reflexive defense strategies that even they don’t fully understand, making those reactions that much easier to weaponize to make it seem like they had it coming or instigated it.

Come to think of it, the “omelette of mutual destruction” lie is the reason I hate that the term “trauma bonding” (coined by CSAT guru-shill Patrick Carnes) has hijacked and replaced usage of the older, victim-centered and far more “surgical” term “captor bonding.” Trauma bonding implies two equal combatants clinging together in a flood and pulling each other down. Captor bonding indicates the existence of and distinguishes between victim and perpetrator and also indicates that the crime (taking captive) is serious. The muddling of those distinctions only serves abusers and harms victims if just because it harms the “appeal process” all must go through to acquit themselves of crimes they didn’t commit.

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago

This all makes a lot of sense. And sadly, this description fits some of my behavior during my first marriage, to an abusive man: “victims of abuse will often engage in all sorts of reflexive defense strategies that even they don’t fully understand, making those reactions that much easier to weaponize to make it seem like they had it coming or instigated it.” The shame from all that sticks deep, and still resurfaces in nightmares in which I am mysteriously still married to that man.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Leedy

Projective identification strikes again. I relate and it baffles me. Why do the people who did nothing wrong end up with the burden of shame? Again it seems like a case of brain hacking to me, as if abuse is the means for one person to unload their own shame for misdeeds onto someone else.

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago

Yes, projective identification as “brain hacking.” Great formulation.

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Leedy

We’re all easily hackable in some ways due to all sorts of evolutionary programming. Like any modern digital-dependent corporation, we need anti-hacking defense strategies.

Shadow
Shadow
1 year ago

If you’re already so lonely and suffering with depression whilst you’re still with him OP, how will you be any worse off if you end it with him? You won’t my Duck, far from it, you’ll be able to start healing and finding fulfilling company and peace of mind in your own company once you don’t have him sucking the life out of you anymore! Yes, you’ll grieve the relationship you WISHED you’d had, and the person you wanted him to be, but he has never been that person and the relationship has not fulfilled your needs for deep connection, has it? So what will you have lost only the equivilent of a character in a drama series you were into?
You’re scared of the unknown really and that’s normal! So was I, so were most if not all of here at CN, but I can honestly tell you, that as rough as the last 18 months since booting my X out onto the road has been for me,and as painful as missing the person I thought he was for a while has been, it’s still been better than letting him stay here making a mug of me, because I took my self-respect back! I’m not totally out of the woods yet because I’m in the latter stges of selling up and moving to another country, which I’ve never done before, and I am being run ragged trying to get my car through the road safety test we have to put them through every year here in Ireland BUT, my stress is all about making good things happen for myself and my son now, not about “missing ” him not grieving the “marriage” at all! In fact, I’m chomping at the bit to get gone for fear he might try and suck me back in again because I can’t even stand the sound of his voice anymore, never mind the sight of him!
You have your own house, your adult independant kids and your lovely grandchildren, so that’s great start for your new life! What about friends? There’s not only a fair few widows about in your age group ( and mine! I’m early 60s!) but there’s a fair few divorcees too! You will probably find yourself making new friends once you’ve grieved a bit, or old friends coming back into your life! You can have much deeper mental and emotional connections with genuine women friends that you ever can with that type of man IME! You can have a lot of fun with your girl mates as well- there’s a good reason that the terms “Gay Divorcees” and “Merry Widows” were coined!
Your therapist is bang on! Dump him and grieve, then start to live again! I bet your sons/daughters will breathe huge sighs of relief as well and be only too glad to give you all the support they can! Look after yourself from now on OP, or that dirty old dog will be slowly killing you, because he’s nothing only a filthy leech!

Spaceman Spiff
Spaceman Spiff
1 year ago

I’m a financial planner in a small town, and I have a client who is 87 years old…a wonderful woman who is filled with joy. She was widowed earlier in life, much like the letter writer, and in the ten years I have known her, she has been married, and then divorced, twice. She has a new boyfriend now, and I’m expecting a marriage soon.

Toni, I guarantee you will be able to find a kind person to spend time with. Leave the jerk.

Anna
Anna
1 year ago

” I promise you’re going to wonder what you ever saw in this guy.”

💯

I often wonder what the hell was I thinking. I thank God, CL and CN that I removed myself from that crazy-making shit show. What a relief!

Orlando
Orlando
1 year ago

My mom booted out my stepdad at age 68. She wishes now she would’ve done it 30 yrs before that. She’s involved in so many group things now (political group & hobby group) she doesn’t miss him at all anymore. It took her about a year for her brain to de-program itself from the coupled-up mindset, but she had to keep herself busy busy to get there. Hoping you can de-program yourself too.

ImmaChumpToo
ImmaChumpToo
1 year ago

I’m concerned about the “I have 3 children and 9 grandchildren and they’re still not enough” statement. Have you ever tried putting them in the spot to be enough? I was with my FW for 20 years and by the end of it I never spent any time with my girl friends (family lives out of state). After my divorce, I deliberately rebuilt my friend group. Now I have so much fun with my girl friends, there’s not been a man come around who has provided as much fun as my girls do. I run those boring/drama guys off pretty quickly. Give your 3 children and 9 children a deliberate chance to fill your “void.” Surely one out of TWELVE will do. Cut this disgusting man off cold turkey and never look back. Enjoy your kids and grandkids.

JeffWashington
JeffWashington
1 year ago

As my Reality Canary likes to remind me, “No company is better than bad company.”

I am a year out from when my fuckwit moved out. I get depressed and lonely sometimes(lately has been rough, not gonna lie.) Honestly? It beats the hell out of the mindfuckery she put me through on a day to day basis. No more eggshell walking, no more pick-me-dancing, no more second guessing me and gaslighting me(and frankly I do not feel like I am doing any more housework now that idiot is gone-should tell you something.)

Kick him to the curb-it sounds like it’s your house. And when you’re ready-love will find YOU. It also sounds like YOU need to find YOU too!

You got this! We are here for you!

Hell of a Chump
Hell of a Chump
1 year ago
Reply to  JeffWashington

Aside from everything else you wrote, so true about the housework. Does slobbery go hand-in-hand with fuckwittery? That might be a great Friday challenge.

I’m sure there are outlier cases that go to the opposite extreme like FWs who start dustbusting in the exact moment you’re getting the news that a parent died or who go Captain Ahab over improperly folded boxers. But I’d venture a guess most leave a trail of dirty laundry, desk mess and pocket clutter and expect squads of magical elves to thanklessly clean up after them.

ladylawyer
ladylawyer
1 year ago

CL you are younger than we are so you missed something in this letter. When a 69 year old woman tells you that her children and grandchildren don’t “fill the void” it means that they are (naturally and normally) busy in their lives – work, school, activities – and can’t always be present for her. Like it or not, there is a void that non/family companionship fills. Even with a strong “girl friend” network, there are still many “couple” things that make getting older more fun – traveling with other couples, going out to dinners, playing cards with a partner – just knowing there is someone to share that social part of life with. Is this man the ideal partner? No. Do they share the same values? Obviously not. But sometimes women make different decisions at 70 than they would have at 50. Give her some grace.

FYI_
FYI_
6 months ago
Reply to  ladylawyer

????
I am single. I have friends. I go to dinner with my friends. I travel with my friends. If I wanted to, I could play cards with my friends. Those are not inherently “couple” things. No, really — hear me out …
I don’t hang out with people who don’t share my values, at any age. Someone who is exploiting a 30-years-younger drug addict is not acceptable company for me, no matter how badly I want to play cards. Seriously. That calculus doesn’t change, no matter how old I am.
Not sure what is meant by “give her some grace.” She wrote in for help in getting away from this FW. Read the comments; there are dozens of people on here who screwed up their courage and left when they were 60+.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  ladylawyer

As a woman nearing 70 myself, I completely agree. It depends on what you want your relationship to be. If you want a romantic relationship with sex and fidelity, then this is not working for her. If someone no longer cares about that stuff – I don’t – you might want friendship, companionship, shared resources, support, etc, and that might be enough. Life IS different when you’re old, many of us have different priorities or needs.

FYI_
FYI_
6 months ago
Reply to  Mehitable

But how could the LW expect friendship from someone who lied to her? How could she expect support from someone who exploited a drug addict and then abandoned that person? How could she share anything with a guy who refuses to even talk about how he betrayed her?
The “priorities and needs,” I guess, would be to have the appearance of coupledom, despite the reality of a super-sick abuser.

Squeaks
Squeaks
1 year ago

Toni, you are mighty! You CAN do this! You do not need this man! (or his abuse, or his bullshit, or his mind-fuck)

2 years ago when my FW ditched our young family for his cokehead “soulmate”, I didn’t believe it was possible to get to the point of wondering what I ever saw in this FW to begin with, but it’s happened.

Sorry that you’re in this crappy club against your will, but welcome to Chump Nation. You’ll get through this!

Chumpolicious
Chumpolicious
1 year ago

Yes I had to reread to see if they were married. Looks like no and she owns her home without him. She wants a man, ok, but there are other older men. Men are living longer these days. If she absolutely needs a man Im sure she can find one. Cant say they would be any better though. What about a dog?

PeaceAtLast
PeaceAtLast
1 year ago

Dear Toni
I found out at age 66 after being married 35 years that my husband had been banging prostitutes for at least 5 years. I was in shock and felt humiliated. He said, “I love you” and “I only want you.” I called a lawyer 2 months after DDay and filed for divorce after 5 months. I finally got him to leave the house after 7 months. Difficult divorce dragging on. Once you know, there is nothing worse than living with a cheater. You will always be wondering where he is, what he is doing and who he is texting. Just because this mistress is laid up doesn’t mean he won’t get another one. (He will). There is no indication that his whoremongering will stop. (It won’t). You need to lock him out and spend some time alone. You cannot heal with him there. You need to examine why you want to be coupled up. Is it because you feel less than if you are not? Our society often sends that message. Your cheater is not a real boyfriend; he is a facade. Is that what you want? You are lucky that you are not married and can just throw him out without going through a divorce. You are lucky that your finances arent a problem. Yes, it is a bummer that the demographics are against you, but the more time you waste with him now, the further the demographics will be against you later. At some point the pain of staying will overtake your fear of starting over. Save yourself some time. Get rid of him now. Learn to enjoy being alone. You can do whatever you want without having to cater to anyone else. Make friends. Participate in activities you enjoy. You might meet someone else. You might not. But you won’t be wasting any more time with a cheater. Everyone on this website wishes they had left sooner. And I’m pretty sure that no one ever regrets leaving a cheater. Leave him now. You got this.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  PeaceAtLast

THIS – THIS is so true: “You will always be wondering where he is, what he is doing and who he is texting. Just because this mistress is laid up doesn’t mean he won’t get another one. (He will). There is no indication that his whoremongering will stop. (It won’t).”

new here old chump
new here old chump
1 year ago
Reply to  PeaceAtLast

You cannot heal with him there. THIS
No contact is the biggest step toward healing for me.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago

Not entirely about THIS topic but I wanted to share this article and didn’t know where to put it. It’s about whether to go back with an ex or not. Based on a Reddit thread. The answer seems to be overwhelmingly……NOT. Which I would agree with based on my own past experiences, the smell doesn’t get better with age:

https://www.outkick.com/culture/reddit-getting-back-with-exes-stories

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago

To me it would depend on just how unhappy you are and what resources and health you have to make it on your own. I’m approaching 70 myself and there’s a lot of things I just don’t care about anymore. If what happened or if he’s still doing this is making you really unhappy, then try to figure out how to leave if you can, financially and health wise. I’m a realist. If you don’t really care that much and you’re not having sex anyway and there are other positive things about your relationship, well, maybe you’re just friends and/or companions at this point. I’m not referring just to letter writer but to older people in general. To me, CL’s primary question: “Is this relationship acceptable to you?” is THE MAIN FACTOR. If you’re in a relationship that makes you feel bad, insecure, dirty, angry, martyred, etc….then you have to figure out how to change it to make it something you want to be in….or leave. If you feel relatively positive about it but there are some things you’re negative about….what’s your bottom line feeling….whatever you do, set your boundaries together and stick to them and make sure you have a plan for an exit if you need one. After all, one of you is going to die in the next few years and women outlast men in general. I wish we had greater parity but it is what it is. Nature may take care of this problem anyway and you have to be prepared for being alone. Build up your financial and emotional resources NOW.

Chumpolicious
Chumpolicious
1 year ago

She should get a dog or cat. Pets are great companions. After reading others posts I agree, he could’ve orchestrated her accident. You just cant give them the benefit of the doubt. If they are capable of lying, cheating, obfuscation, they are capable of worse. We are not talking about normal people here. Cheaters have an empathy chip lacking, and if you cant empathize with people you can kill them.

Mehitable
Mehitable
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpolicious

OMG, it also occurred to me that he may have created that accident. I hate to think like that but….I guess it occurred to several of us.

new here old chump
new here old chump
1 year ago
Reply to  Chumpolicious

I think this is my main concern. I am worried he will try to kill her. It sounds so dramatic, but I think my husband wanted me dead. I am terrified of him. The shame of that- is so huge. So I think she needs to throw that shame in the garbage and get away. She is in danger. i hope she stays in touch here! Let’s us know she got away, and she is safe.

Ruby Gained A Life
Ruby Gained A Life
1 year ago

I was 62 when I left my abusive, cheating fuckwit. I had retired early (because he threatened to divorce me if I didn’t), sold my house and got rid of everything I owned that wouldn’t fit on our sailboat. i put all the equity from the house I had owned before I started dating him into the newer home on the opposite coast near where his daughter lived, and used the a second mortgage on the house to finance the boat. When we sold the house, all of the equity went into a joint bank account. I am sure many of you know where this is going. With our labradoodle, we set sail for warmer climates, the first leg of our plan for an equatorial circumnavigation. We got as far as Florida before I realized he was not just “an emotional guy” suffering from depression as he claimed, but instead a malignant Narcissist according to four different mental health professionals. I found out about the cheating while the boat (with us aboard) was in Florida and Hurricane Irma was rapidly approaching. His sister told me.

When the flood waters retreated and the draw bridges had been repaired, I left with what I could carry and my dog, rented a car and drove about a thousand miles to my best friend’s home in the middle of the continental US, far from an ocean or a bluewater cruiser or a hurricane. I didn’t leave the boat; I left the Cheating Abusive Douche and gave up all claims to the boat in return for him signing divorce papers. I got the better end of that bargain. When the divorce was final, I got a job. (No way was I going to end up paying him alimony, and unbeknownst to me, he had already burned through is 401ks.) I was 64,

I started my job six months before the pandemic started. Did I mention that I’m a nurse?

I worked in an intensive care unit at a large midwest teaching hospital until the pandemic was “over.” I saved some money, bought myself a car, a condo and some furniture and now I have a new life in a new place. I see my best friend as often as possible, and I have a calm, peaceful household in my own little cute, quirky condo. I am happy. I’m 69 now, retired again and have found that most household issues can be solved by two old ladies putting their heads together to figure things out. What we cannot handle, there’s a handyman. I like living alone, not having to cater to or walk on eggshells around a fuckwit.

Of course there are times I get lonely, but no where near as lonely as a felt sitting on my beautiful boat in a lovely, warm climate with the fuckwit sitting right next to me. My dog is much better company than the fuckwit ever was.

My point in typing all these words is that you CAN leave. You just don’t want to. I get it. I was there for 6 months after I figured out he was abusive. I had to extricate my finances from his, get my ducks in a row. I didn’t want to leave my lovely boat or my lovlier lifestyle. I didn’t want to give up on my around the world adventure before we even left the US. My incandescent rage over the cheating propelled me out the door.

Life is beautiful without a fuckwit dragging you down. I hope you see that one day.

Not Acceptable
Not Acceptable
1 year ago

Hi Toni,
I know how you feel. I would continue to talk to my FW if he hadn’t moved out to be with his life coach.
He & I have been together since 1981 and I found out about his hooker habit about a year ago (and the financial shenanigans that have enriched him at my expense, even though I was the primary wage earner until 2021.)
What I have learned is that men like this love the secret and the power imbalance. It’s the lie of coming home to a good woman and the sneaking around that gets them aroused.
So don’t worry about leaving him, because he will eventually be forced to find a new cover for his secret sexual basement. Just please be careful and don’t get an STI.
My STBX left one Sunday after lunch and while I was still naked in bed after sex. He had secretly found a new apartment and furnished it. Much of the planning and online purchases while we were on a 2 week trip together to Europe to visit our youngest daughter.
To him, I was indispensable until I was obsolete.
I am very sorry you are going through this craziness and this pain.

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago

Dear Toni, I really empathize. I’m 70 myself, and left my husband last year when I found out he was unfaithful. It’s indeed quite hard to start over, at our age! But to me it’s been more than worth it.

The only advice I’d add to the what others have offered is this: I urge you to get evaluated for depression, if you haven’t already. The reason is that if you are like me, you may have some underlying depression that inclines you to a painful level of loneliness and sadness when you are living alone, and which thus may be making it doubly hard to go no-contact.

I’m getting treated for depression now, and I on the days when the new medicine is working well (we’re still in the middle of figuring out doses etc.), I feel WAY less lonely than I did before seeking treatment. On these good days, even if I’m not getting together with a friend or my daughter (who loves me but is very busy at this time in her life), I will find myself just puttering in my lovely new apartment, or walking around my new neighborhood, or doing something like going to a meditation class, and thinking, “hey, this is a pretty nice life!” And it’s amazing, throughout, not to have to be living in an emotional “twilight” with the man who treated me so poorly.

Please don’t settle for less than you are worth! Just speaking for myself, getting good solid treatment for depression has made a huge difference.

Sending hugs–

Leedy

Irrelevant
Irrelevant
1 year ago

Toni,

Sadly, there are SO MANY of us who were duped, dumped, and/or blindsided at a late age. I’m mid 60s and experienced it all just as we were finalizing our retirement plans–after 40 years of marriage. I was also financially dependent on him for the last 10 years of our marriage due to a disability. We had no savings left (thanks to him), and I had no ungodly idea how I would survive it all–emotionally, physically and financially.

Yet I did find a way, even though I never wanted to try and had convinced myself that staying, as lonely and painful as it became, was the better option *because* of my age and because leaving felt like the much harder choice.

Well…it was hard. Harder than anything I ever had to do. But it also turned out to be THE BEST THING I ever did for myself.

The early days were brutal, I won’t lie. But once I began to stabilize and gained a little survival determination back, I started noticing the all the little things that improved my daily life because he wasn’t in it. Those little things added up and started making me feel as though a HUGE weight had been lifted off my shoulders. Yes, I was lonely and had to work hard to keep myself healing and moving in a forward direction, but trust me when I say that the sheer RELIEF I started feeling was nothing short of amazing. And it grew over time….to the point where I found myself wondering what the hell I was fighting to hold onto back then.

It’s been 7 years now and I LOVE my life. I’m alone, but seldom lonely, single but not missing out on anything, I’m socially active, busy and absolutely relish being the master and commander of my own universe. Had you told me I would one day achieve enough healing and autonomy to feel that way, I would NEVER have believed you.

You *can* do this too. I promise. All those things that feel impossible right now are obstacles, *not* roadblocks. You will find a way to navigate around them when you finally decide you’ve had enough. For me, that day came when I realized my fear of staying put became MUCH greater because of what it was doing to me—than all the fears I had about making a change. I knew if I stayed I’d still be that sad, lonely, pitiful woman who allowed fear to lower her bar so much, it no longer existed. But by leaving, I’d be giving myself the only chance I’d get to discover the real ‘me’ again.

I was right. And the version of me who came out the ‘other side’ is very happy about that.

((((hugs)))

Leedy
Leedy
1 year ago
Reply to  Irrelevant

What an inspiring comment! Very cheering, to me as someone who’s only four months into the process of building a new life as a single person.

LovedAJackass
LovedAJackass
1 year ago

I just want to say that if you’re in any enterprise from a business to a volunteer project to a relationship, if you have a “partner” who lies to you and cheats you, you don’t have a “partner.” You have someone who is using you.

There are many chumps here who will tell you that once you adjust to living alone in your own home, you’ll never want to live with someone else again. Remember, you can have companions to date without moving them into your house.