Dear Chump Lady,
I am five months out from the last Dday. I did not do the pick me dance, I drew boundaries and protected myself by kicking his ass to the curb. The OW was older than me (11 years older than me and X) and had actually helped me with the relationship, until she was single and exploited her minimal knowledge of the relationship instead. It really was a double betrayal. But I didn’t try to compete with her for him.
Now however, I compare myself to her. She is successful, teaches CPR classes, leads her daughter’s girl scout troop, volunteers all over the place, is a coupon queen, etc. I feel like a fat homebody loser who just volunteers at the food bank sometimes. She knows how to make herself valuable to people. I’m nice enough, people like me, but I’m not really valuable to anyone but my son. I keep feeling like I should do things like she does and then I would be more impressive. She sparkles, I don’t. How do I stop comparing myself to her?
Well, you can begin by realizing you’re not exploiting anyone’s relationship troubles to make a move on their husband. You’re not screwing up small children’s home lives. Oh, and you’re not inappropriately “dating” someone over a decade younger than you. I think this makes you the classy person here.
The OW? Coupon clipping, cookie sales, and no soul. Why compare yourself with someone who has nothing in common with you? And I’m not talking about extracurricular activities — I’m talking about values. You could no more be the OW than Kermit the Frog (not to malign muppets or anything). You’re a different species.
Yeah, because she’s one of the sparkly people and you’re a dorky “homebody.” I know you see it that way, but you need to reframe this. It isn’t that she knows how to make herself valuable to people. No. She knows how to manipulate people. She’s artful at presenting a front — community organizer, do-gooder, friend. Her actions tell a very different story. She’s not a friend, or a force for good. There’s no THERE there. No core. The image is a useful construct to get the things she wants — kibbles, other people’s husbands, accolades. The mask throws people off her trail, it disarms them into believing this is someone they can trust.
Sadly, these sorts of fraudulent people are quite common. The priest who’s really a pedophile. The crusading politician who’s taking bribes. The Wall Street investor with a pyramid scheme. They all act with a sense of authority — your OW was giving you relationship advice. They present as competent and all giving — but if you scratch the surface, you’ll find these people either react with a sparkle offensive (charm! charm! charm!) or when that fails — rage (HOW DARE YOU CHALLENGE THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ!)
They don’t react with substance or self reflection. They don’t react with shame or humility. At the core of all aberrant behavior, IMO, is entitlement. Your former “friend” felt entitled to exploit you and conduct an affair with your husband. (Your ex-husband, of course, also felt entitled.)
Wishing to be more sparkly, by way of comparison, is another way of blaming yourself for your ex’s affair. If I was of More Value, if I was Impressive — This Would Not Have Happened to Me.
No. This wasn’t your fault. Your husband’s failure to value you has nothing to do with your worthiness as a person. It has everything to do with his lack of character. And for what it’s worth “impressive” people get cheated on every day. Super models, Hollywood stars, successful business people, those with zero body fat, genius IQs. We chumps are legion. Being “impressive” does not control your spouse’s character, or lack thereof.
The only reason to strive to be impressive, to be a better you, is for YOU. Not because you’re in some stupid contest with a sparkly dog turd. If you think Rumorhasit could use some more kickass — get out there and go for it. Take a class, join the gym, volunteer, adopt an orphan. Also consider that there’s nothing wrong with being an introvert. Not everyone wants dazzling hyperactivity. Many people prefer the company of a fellow homebody. Find your tribe.
Every time you compare, you’re giving these idiots your energy. Save it for yourself, save it for the people who deserve you, like your son. Congratulate yourself for navigating this shit so well. You didn’t do the pick me dance and you threw the bum out. That’s VERY impressive.
Leave the OW to the Girl Scouts and sewing badges. Maybe there’s one for home wrecking.
Rumorhasit, once again Chumplady hits the nail on the head. The OW in my case was 9 years older than me, and seemingly had it all; great job, great condo, life of the local party scene-Facebook perfect. Actually everyone where she works hated her, the condo was so underwater she let the bank foreclose on it and moved to a cheap rental, and she single handedly kept the local bars in business due to her drinking problem.
Do not compare yourself to her, she is fool’s gold, you are a genuine treasure.
The OM, is a manager of an auto parts store…..not much to compare there. I’m an illustrator, designer, and work for a non-profit arts organization. She really moved up in life there. I’ve been told by family that he is a rebound and it wont last. I think I just have to find the ‘meh’ and not care. He could be the queen of england for all I care and I shouldn’t. We shouldn’t care. We didn’t do this to our families. They did. Like Tracy said, they are sparkly dog turds. Birds of a feather and all that shit…
BTW great name, awesome song. You’ll be okay. Read and re read what Annie wrote, OW “seemingly” SEMINGLY had it all. They all do, they sparkle, they shine, but it is from without not within. We will get through this shit storm and will become better for it. Keep your head up!
I felt the same way at first. She must be better than me. She has fake boobs, I do not, she is 11 years younger, has more expensive cars, and quite the social life. I have dedicated my life to my family and therefore have a very limited social life. I do not regret that one bit. I understand now, that she is no better than me. Actually, she is pathetic – poor excuse for a woman. After screwing my piece of shit cop of a husband, she landed herself a job in the jail. She was arrested on her birthday for a dui and hit and run and her mug shot landed on the front page of the paper. Well, all her coworkers and the inmates (yes I do know a friend of a friend that is in there) know about her arrest and that she sleeps around (she is married with two kids). I understand that she even flirts with the inmates. She has been referred to a walking petri dish……
Understand that they are no better – they are a pathetic excuse for a human being. All they are good at is putting on a mask and that mask cannot stay on forever. Why compare yourself to a sparkly turd? You are better than that – way better!
A badge for home wrecking – that was hysterical!! Way to go CL. 🙂
I really LOL’d at that one too. Great as always Tracy!
Rumorhasit. This woman may clip coupons (is that even a virture?), but all the volunteering is often indicative of a flaming narcissist.
*see how wonderful I am? see how many people love me and appreciate my good deeds?*
Its all narc supply… kibbles and bits (of shit). Oh the largesse that is the wonderful ME. No one will happen to notice that i’ll just move in on this lovely woman’s husband.
She’s a piece of shit, Rumor.
You say that the only person you’re valuable to is your son. I see you using the words “only” and “just” to describe yourself. I have often said that sex addicts and cheaters use these words at an attempt to minimize their crimes. Chumps use them too, to devalue THEMSELVES. Your value to your son is infinite and believe it or not, there are a helluva lot of parents who can’t even get that right; its the most important job in the world, so please, you must wear that merit badge and proudly. You deserve it! Your husband is a spineless asswipe for succumbing to this strumpet’s tawdry two-faced seduction.
Please hold your head up high. You’ve been used and abused all the way around and I’m so sorry. But this woman has as much value as last week’s grocery coupons.
I would yell to an empty house, “I am a REAL woman!” God damn it, I am. Real women don’t fuck around behind their spouses back. Real women have wrinkles and bulges but shrug them off because they aren’t the most important things about them. Real woman don’t destroy other people because they want something of theirs. Real women add to the good in the world.
Sounds like you are real woman, Rumorhasit. Hold your head up high.
Real women built this country, dammit. Real women pioneered right along side the men and had children to boot. If hard times ever strike this country again, the line separating the wheat from the chaff will run right down between the real women and the worthless floozies. Real women won’t have much use for men who prefer the company of floozies.
Hey CL, I disagree with the decade thing, I don’t see anything wrong with dating someone 10 years younger/older than yourself. It’s the dating a MARRIED someone that is the issue…other than that you nailed it.
I suppose I’m either arrogant or my sense of worth is better than I thought. When I saw a the studio pic OW sent my ex all I thought was “what the hell is wrong with him, she’s looks like an inferior version of me”. By that I mean her looks, her personality is nothing like me.
Okay, I’m a hypocrite on this issue (I once in my idiocy dated a man who was 22 years older than me. In my defense, he was a long distance swimmer with a PhD from Harvard…okay, and he was also a flaming narcissist… I’m shooting myself in the foot here…) I know the age difference can work sometimes. But I also find it weird — and this is a double standard — but I find women with much younger men kind of unnatural. I didn’t make the laws of nature, but I think most straight men want a woman closer to their age, or younger. When I see the reverse, I think those women are getting played for their money. It’s equal opportunity idiocy really. Women can be as vain and ridiculous as men.
The cougar thing creeps me out. Yes, a much older man with a much younger woman is creeptacular too, but the mutton dressed as lamb just strikes me as… grasping. Delusional. Have you seen the reality TV show Extreme Cougar Wives? http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/extreme-cougar-wives
Your point is right — the big problem is dating a married person. Obviously marital status is way more inappropriate than 11 years of age difference — to which I still say ICK.
I followed that link unfortunately…….and I have nothing in the house strong enough to combat the nausea…..
Since you mentioned natural law, let’s face it –the dating and all the humping is all about producing another generation. Biologically, that’s what the bodies are doing, no matter what sort of mental spin you put on it. Since men stay in “breeding form” a lot longer than women, the older man/younger woman makes a whole lot more sense than the reverse.
but women live longer… 😀 I’m a very youthful 57 and I see nothing wrong with dating a man in his mid 40’s. a classy cougar. 😉
I’m a kind of shopworn 56, so I guess it’s older men for me (as if!) who would be less likely to put a premium on bed sport. I’m with CL. If some younger man was interested in me, I’d spend the whole relationship trying to sleuth out the ulterior motives. 😉
Correct me if I’m wrong, Laurel, but I thought the classic definition of “cougar” was: “Woman who dates man young enough to be her son.”
I don’t see anything out of the ordinary about you snagging a 43-year-old. Butt if he were 33 or 23, I think you’d raise some eyebrows. :-p
Plus I think what CL is probably referring to is women who date much, much younger men just for the sake of doing it. And, if some of the female celebrities who dated younger are any indication, some desperate attempt to grab hold of a fleeting youth.
I mean, seriously, Madonna could have any man she wanted, yet she was stepping out with a 26-year-old?!?! Really?! Her marriage to Sean Penn might have been holy hell but at least she married someone her own age.
Same goes for Sharon Stone and Cher.
And look no further than Ashton and Demi if you want to see how older women/younger man plays out in the long term. :-p
I am a relatively young looking 58 (relative to 58) and most men my age or a little older appear OLD – as in “Hey Dude, how did you escape from the nursing home?” old. People always ask my oldest daughter if we’re sisters. I’ve told her I don’t know if they’re complimenting me or insulting her, so we’ve decided to think they’re complimenting me.
If and when I date, I may have to date younger just to be able to find someone who can walk period and walk faster than a crawl.
May I add, when speaking of younger men, older women – Tina Turner! 🙂 🙂
I don’t think that you’re wrong Chris, but I think its also means any attractive older woman who seeks out younger men. Quite often though, she’s waaaaaaaay over the top and obvious. Its a disparaging term, of course, and I was being facetious. 🙂
I’m with you, CP. The men our age on March.con are generally really garrrross. This dude messaged me today and I wanted to say to him. are you fucking kidding me? Now, don’t get me wrong. I see tons of attractive men in their 50s, 60s, 70s, +… but not on match. Oh, and what I love is that when they are 55 and want someone 35-45.
Hey Laurel – Me too! 😉
Yes I saw a clip of the show, it’s designed to make women look disgusting, hated it. I also hate the term cougar, there is no term like it for older men but give A woman agency and suddenly she is labeled a predator, BS. frankly we are not cave ppl who are only here to breed either. This is patriarchy in action telling us what is acceptable. Women in general live longer so you could say that is the counter to the idea that men are fertile longer so it is somehow ok for them but not women. Plus recent research says older men’s sperm is as much to blame for birth defects as older women’s eggs. All that aside, relying on some auto ick response is not so good. When one feels that it is good to analyze it and see if it is valid. If we didn’t question those auto responses where would we be? As it is we are still far away from a society that values everyone. This ick thing fuels homophobia, racism, transgender and a plethora of discrimination of those that many of us are conditioned to think of as “other”. Ok, stepping off my box now
All good points. Transgender, queer, no problem. A woman dating a guy 30 years younger than she is? I confess, yep, I go ick. Then again, Hugh Hefner makes me go ick too. Still — hey, whatever floats your boat and you’re honest about it is fine by me. Live and let live. I feel the same about polyamory, swinging. Not my thing, but if you’re honest — okay. My hang up with cheating is that it’s sexual pleasure predicated on deceit. Or maybe even deceitful pleasure, with a side of sex. The extreme cougars are weird, but they’re not hurting anyone. (Well, maybe their mortified grandchildren.)
CL, we were talking 10 years or so, there is something off when it’s 30 years age diff. What’s off is the maturity of the older person, of course that seems to go with the cheating. My ex was apparently still stuck in high school, I just didn’t realize it until he got obvious.
In my 30s after first long term relationship ended I mostly went out with guys in their 20s because I was single and wanted to have a good time, not have some guy trying to marry me after 3 dates. Also, my taste in music is always evolving, most ppl my age were only listening to the same ole crap, and fun stuff I like to do was more in line with the 20s guys.
Now, I’m getting ready to date again in my 50s and like someone above said; I need someone who is active and enjoys doing what I do, I’m a major tech geek and while I need to get back to body building again, I’m in pretty good shape. So I’m much doubting I’ll find many 50s or 60s guy who are compatible. More likely going to be some guy in his 40s who can hang with me but I won’t rule any age out if they are intelligent and interesting, I hate small talk but give me real conversation and your age disappears for me.
Last bit, I despise swingers in a profound way and I’ve met many because I go to nude resorts and they’ve taken over most of them. Overwhelmingly with swingers it’s men demanding their women do it and it’s extremely controlling with a lot of macho bullshit. Last time I encountered 2 swinging couples at a resort whilst playing pool the husbands were fully clothed, wives fully naked and made up, me and them the only ppl in the room and one of those assholes grabbed my ass. I jammed his balls with my pool cue, that shit is so messed up. I only go to one resort now, it’s naturist with no luxaries so the swingers don’t go there.
Polyamory is a whole different kettle, I’ve met people who practice it and there is respect and boundaries and commitment without the controlling crap. I personally could never do it, I’m monogamous or I’m single – I cannot overcome my upbringing. I kinda wish I could do it because I’ve met some very happy people in these relationships and logically they make a lot of sense where you get your needs met on many levels in trusting relationships.
very interesting dat. There’s a book called “The Ethical Slut” The title says it all. I love that and Ialso know a couple who practice polyamory and went into their marriage 20 years with that understanding and are very happy. I have to respect that. Swingers also make me gag for all the reasons that you stated.
My x is 50 with a 23 year old. The ‘nearly’ 30 year difference is quite repulsive to me but hey, “he relates to her, she relates to him so that’s all that matters right?” Try telling that to my 17 year old daughter!
I knew a woman in her 50s who divorced and dated 20 & 30 somethings for a while, she was just enjoying the freedom to have sex and fun. She married a guy in his 40s eventually and they are quite happy. It doesn’t ick me out but I cannot imagine being compatible enough for a partnership with someone 30 years younger.
My former FIL was married to a woman 30 years younger than him (she was his second wife, not the mother of my ex). He had two children older than her, and one daughter the same exact age, along with three kids slightly younger. I always found that kind of icky, it made me think of incest.
This same FIL once told my ex, in front of the whole family, that if ex didn’t want me, FIL would take me.
I play online games, and one of the women in my group is an Aussie whose partner is about 15 years younger. She’s married, divorced, and has grandchildren. She hasn’t married her partner because they both figured that it would never work out, given the age difference. However, after 15 years, they’re still together, but still unmarried. Whatever works.
I do hear all of you about the problem of partners who match up in terms of activity levels. My mother is an extremely active octogenarian and a widow. She’s going out with a widower who’s about 5 years older. She says the hard part about being an active senior is finding other active seniors. She’s not interested in any kind of intimate or romantic relationship with this guy. In fact, she says that he’s okay in short doses only. Still, he likes concerts and is involved in the art scene. They can have a fun evening.
I think that I’ll need work on my picker before I dip a toe in the dating pool. I do think that if I date anyone, I’ll want someone who genuinely shares some of the same kinds of activities I do. STBX went along for the ride, but never really did any of the things I liked to do after we married, and the only thing he likes to do besides work is watch tv, which is fine if that’s all I’d like to do. I do know that anyone I date has to be okay with my dogs. I don’t trust dogs’ assessment of people (dogs would love anyone who gives them treats), but if the person can handle my dogs, I’d be impressed, as I have dogs that take a lot of commitment.
I have children in their 20’s and 30’s and they are very bright, knowledgeable and articulate. They know things with which a lot of people their age are not familiar – because I’ve told them. That’s how I know I could never date anyone that age. At some point, you reference something in a conversation and they look at you with that blank stare because they have no clue what you’re talking about – it was before their time.
At least for me the age gap can’t be so significant that I feel like I’m babysitting or I’m a tour guide for a group exiting a time machine. I don’t like small talk and I really enjoy a good conversation. My interests are little eclectic, so I know I’m not compatible with a lot people. I would be willing to date someone in their mid-40’s, but probably not any younger than that.
My STBX dates women in his age range with lots of money; he lusts after barely legal, however.
For every doctor who becomes one to save lives, there’s another who just wants the bragging rights. Can you imagine how exhausting it must be to pretend all day every day? Leave that stuff to the professionals.
I often compare horrible people like Cheaters to decent people like actors which I’m sure my brother is mad at me for. But like Cheaters actors can cry on command, passionately swear to love someone they don’t, pretend to be successful business men or distressed damsels or tragic crusaders. But then they exit the stage and they’re just people like you or me, worried about kids and bills and if they need to loose weight. Cheaters and AP are those who look fine on stage, but out of the flood lights and make-up are very different people than who they pretend to be. It sucks that most of the audience will never see them for who they truly are, but you know what happens when they exit stage left. Hold on to that.
I find it an everyday struggle to try not to figure out “why” my STBXH chose her over me. He truly affaired down in every catagory. I wish I could stop my mind.
I did that some but only for a short while. It’s to exhausting. Don’t worry, you’ll get past it. It will just take time.
Now it’s more of wondering where the woman I knew for 20+ yrs went to. The woman I knew and fell in love and wanted to spend the rest of my life with had class, she had morals. That woman no longer exists.
My ex affaired down bigtime, too, but in this case, it’s easy to understand why. He never intended to be w/her for long or leave me for her; she was just CAKE. So it didn’t really matter what she was like (although, as someone else mentioned, she’s actually a rather faded copy of me – but I don’t know if that’s about the ex and me, or just that he has a ‘type’ he likes). I think her most attractive aspect for him was simply availability plus providing kibbles!
Effen A Karen,
That is exactly it, availability. My stbxw and new man have divorce in common, and no morals. The fact that she bold faced lied about my daughter seeing them kiss and then saying “It’s okay mommy, I know you and dad werent happy” That fucking tore my heart out.
It is a down grade, your working on yourself while he puts a band aide on it.
My ex fully intends to be with this woman, unless of course I say I will go back and try it with him; but then he would just go back and forth again, just like before. For now though, until he cheats again he is painfully with my ex-friend.
She is nothing like me and she is nothing like him, except for the admiring him part. They both have that in common. She is not attractive at all, and I’m saying this honestly, not just b/c she took my husband, she’s almost ugly. She’s unathletic and can’t do any of the things my husband and I used to do. The only thing she has for him is a little money, which she spends on gifts for him in return for coming back to her after he’s broke up with her for the 12th or 13th time. Last time he broke up with her she bought him a bike frame to get his attention and it worked, of course.
So even though I know I’m better, I still have been struggling lately with why her when I’m the better choice? My brain hurst from not being able to shut off the obsessive thinking. I feel like I’ve taken a huge step back in recovery.
I’m sorry that really sucks, I don’t know if I can compare new guy with me. He looks like me except he shaves his head. Other than he doesn’t seem to want more in his professional life. I wish stbxw would’ve seen me and focused on me and us but unfortunately I cannot change the past. She likes to shove the past in my face. Claims new guys knows what she wants before she does. Even typing this out makes my heart ache.
I am struggling to, I try to remind myself that I didn’t do anything to cause her to cheat. That she did that on her own. I don’t want to blame myself any more.
That’s probably one of the reasons he did it. Whether it’s older, younger, fatter, thinner, opposite sex, etc., it makes you and possibly ap compare. And that keeps them central.
They haven’t the normal capacity for love, character or physical attraction.
Rumor, I so understand the comparison thing. In my case, I continue to struggle with comparing myself to my ex, and I always come up short. It’s insane, because he is diagnosed NPD, bankrupt, unemployed, lost our house to foreclosure, gay but hides it, and totally, batshit crazy. This is a guy about to turn 48 years old who threw away a great career to become an actor. His career so far mostly consists of some YouTube videos of himself dancing around in a bigfoot costume while singing songs he wrote himself. He sells bobbleheads and underpants with images of himself in the costume. Well, actually there is more to his career than that. He also wrote a book about how inspirational he is (he paid someone $5000 to publish it), he claims to be a “motivational speaker” (he did a freebie at the local boys and girls club, made our son go along. Son said more than half the audience walked out before the talk was over), he now has a scheme to throw 80s dance party anti-bullying fundraisers. And that’s not even getting into the STAGGERING infidelity, the gay bathhouses, the threesomes and orgies with married people. Or the way he still tries to destroy me and hurt me whenever he can, although we barely have any contact at all anymore.
But he’s so SPARKLY. He has so many “friends” on Facebook (5000). He goes to endless parties, activities, functions and events. He’s always in the spotlight, always the center of attention, the life of every party. He makes up lies about how great his life is, and gets 100 likes on FaceBook.
By comparison, I have only a couple of really good friends. I work very hard, but am barely making enough money to get by. I have created a wonderful home for myself and my son, despite ex not paying the ordered child support, but I feel like a loser because my mom has had to help with the rent the past two months. I feel boring, stick-in-the-mud, a failure. I think of the ex and all his glitter, then look at my life, and I feel so LESS THAN.
It’s awful. Yet I can’t seem to shake it. Sorry this is so long, I guess I needed to vent.
However bad it is GIO — you’re not a BOBBLEHEAD.
OMG. Your ex sounds mentally ill. Seriously. Bigfoot costume?! Your poor son. The mortification factor alone.
Single parenting is hard, hard stuff. But you are mighty. How could your life be anything but improved by being out of this wingnut’s orbit? When you feel less than, it’s just residual NPD fever. Like malaria. He had you convinced for so long he was All That. You still, sort of believe it. Because to not believe it, is to believe something quite incredible — that he is deranged.
Truly, GIO — he is deranged.
I like the term “NPD fever.” It was like that for me when living with my ex. I always compared myself to him and felt so inadequate. He was so driven, so accomplished. The list of awards he won went on and on. I felt like I just slid further and further down the scale in comparison to him. But deep down I knew I was the kind of person who would really be there for someone, and he wasn’t. What kind of person focuses more on their accomplishments than their family? What kind of person walks out after 31 years saying ‘I fell out of love with you and it was your fault?” A person who has no substance. So glad I’m out now and recovering my self esteem.
Ahhh, the awards. Mine was also in the military before the sheriff’s department and is still in the reserves. So the bathroom in the basement was turned into his shrine where he posted all of his advancements, awards, and other certificates. I used to joke with my kids that when he would die, we would just need to visit the bathroom shrine. Now, don’t get me wrong, I was always pround of his advancements as I always felt that I had supported him and helped him succeed at those accomplishments. But looking at it now, what a joke. No, I don’t not have any awards on my walls in my house. I don’t need to see a plaque on the wall to know that I am a good person or that I have done well. I have two awesome kids who remind me of that daily. In the end, those awards mean nothing.
I was in the military. I wasn’t in it for the awards or badges you were given. There is a huge difference between the ones that joined to serve and be apart of something bigger than themselves and the ones that do it for recognition. I’m guessing your husband was also one to wear his uniform off duty so he could get a pat on the back. Or a free drink.
Oh yes, the free drink situation. I’ve bartended part time all my adult life and I’ve seen many uniforms come in expecting free drinks.
That drives me nuts, I had a friend that was like that. Namely because he was broke all the time so he used “I fought a war for this country” all the time. I’ve seen and heard others do this. I don’t understand why a lot of my generation feels entitled to hand outs because they went overseas. Yes it was a great sacrifice, we encountered a lot of horrific shit, but that doesn’t mean you can stop working hard now that you are out.
I wish I never got out. I should have stayed.
That is funny but no, he did not wear it off duty (as far as I know). Technically it is the deparment of homeland security now and I do believed that when he originally joined he thought it would be more of a Baywatch type gig. LOL
Anyway, when he was due to get out after his ten years, they had the sheriff come for a visit to talk him up in hopes that he would join the sheriff’s department, which he did do after the law enforcement academy. I just look back and it amazes me that he was so much more important than everyone else. I saw that arrogance while he was in his affair. He acted like his shit didn’t stink. Gosh, can’t you see how important I am???? I have prvledged information that is only available to a select few!!! He still acts like that. And he had commented in the past that I seemed arrogant.. Well, after you do some research on certain things you do have valid pertinant information. So sometimes I feel like he thought I was a threat to expose what an idiot he is/was.
Anyway, after disclosure and me telling him what a piece of shit he is for doing this to his family, I also made a comment about his shrine and in true poor pity party cheater fashion, he tore down all those plaques, awards, and certificates and burned then in the backyard. Just another attempt at kibbles if you ask me…. douchebag.
All of our mutual friends think he is insane, and so do some of his own family members. Our son thinks his dad is crazy and has no respect for him at all. But it’s hard, because he still loves his dad, even though he also thinks he is an embarrassing loser.
The ex is all about “following his dreams and passions.” He made son watch a video of him prancing all around in a skintight, flesh-colored bodysuit that left nothing to the imagination, doing an “interpretive dance” while some woman played flute to Peter and the Wolf. Ex looked like he had shoe polish all over his face. Son was stunned by the bizarre awfulness of the video, and made me watch it. I couldn’t believe it. Ex told son the dance showed “how much confidence he has” and that he was better than other people because he had the courage to follow his dreams and act really outrageously. He tells son that sort of thing all the time. He has tons of YouTube videos, all extremely bad.
There is much, much more to the story, believe me. Sometimes I ask myself what the fuck happened, how did any of this happen to me. Ex left us financially devastated, credit ruined. Along with his delusions of being famous (he pays people to come up and ask for his autograph in front of crowds), his severe NPD and crazy behavior, he committed more acts of adultery than anyone I have heard of. Although he cheated our entire marriage, and was always clearly narcissistic, he wasn’t THIS crazy until right before he dumped me for the OW who ended up dumping him.
My therapist tells me I have PTSD, and that it will never go away entirely, but will get better over time. I don’t know if I will ever be with another man. I’m not sure I can risk going through another nightmare like what I’ve been through. The ex is the only man I’ve ever been with. I feel cheated.
Sorry, having a rough week.
I’m so sorry you and your son have to deal with this insanity and that it has also left you financially devastated. I think you need to just worry about you and your son for now. Don’t worry so much about whether you will ever meet someone (or conversely deny that you even want to) and just take it a day at a time and work on getting in a better place for YOU. This shit takes time and these rough weeks are par for the course… just know that you are a million times better than your ex and the only person that doesn’t see how obviously that is true is you.
Bless your heart, Gladitsover. That sounds completely nuts of your ex! Mine also acted so strange at the end that I thought he had a brain tumor. Completely out of character, sobbing and crying all curled up in fetal position when I’d hardly seen him cry in all those years. What happens to these guys? Towards the end mine said our family hadn’t supported him enough, but to me it seemed we bent over backwards to do things he liked. I don’t know how we could have done much more. For awhile I think I had PTSD too, but it’s getting better.
GIO, you know what I learned recently? You can BUY fake Facebook friends. By the thousands or even tens of thousands. Apparently, these cyber-pals are also programmed to post generic comments to your page. Golly, technology really IS making our world a better place!
If your idiot ex is capable of paying people to ask him for autographs (which: pathetic), I wouldn’t put it past him to pay for “friends” and “Likes.” These show-biz types have to be lying to themselves even more than they lie to everyone else.
GiO, just curious, does your ex have a hardcore religious background?
I’m only asking but your husband fits the classic profile of an “ex-gay,” or a gay man who was pressured and bullied by his religious family and church community to suppress his true self, stop sleeping with guys and marry a woman.
And based on your comments, you fit the classic profile of an Ex-Gay Wife, i.e. an unsuspecting, good-hearted woman who got married expecting a husband, but instead getting an intensely closeted, self-loathing homosexual.
All the classic symptoms of the disease are there:
a) Cheating on you with multiple men. The bathhouse thing is the clincher. “Curious” straight guys go to bookstores or rest-stops for anonymous hookups. They do it once or twice and call it day. It’s the closeted gay men (and decadent, out and proud gay men) who go to bathhouses, known havens of crystal meth use and hours of unadulterated sex. The fact that your ex went back again and again speaks to enjoyment, not curiosity.
b) His complete and utter mid-life breakdown, which he channeled into a manic get-famous scheme, where all of the sudden he feels the need to find himself and become a “STAR!!!”….at age 50.
c) His complete DESTRUCTION of your marriage/relationship. Some pretty fucked up cheaters have been chronicled on this blog, but yours takes the cake. And it has all the markings of an ex-gay marriage. He didn’t just cheat on you with other men. He went out of his way to fuck up your life, financially and emotionally. Imagine decades of suppressing your true self and forcing yourself into a marriage just to fit society’s conventions. I’m not making excuses for him. But this is why so many of these types are so fucking unhinged.
d) His hedonistic lifestyle, ignorant of the fact that the rest of his life is a complete and utter mess. Sleeping around with different guys and partying it up is what you do when you’re 21 and you’re first coming out of the closet. He’s CLEARLY too old for that. But since he spent decades holding it all in, he’s now letting it all out and wants everybody to be on board with EVERY SINGLE DECISION he makes, up to and including his bizarre interpretative dance videos.
It would be one thing if he divorced you and got himself a nice boyfriend. But he went the destructive route. And that’s simply unacceptable.
I’m sorry you’ve endured this, and forgive me for reading too much into your comments. For all I know, your ex could’ve been raised by anarchic atheists.
But if my in-depth presumptions are true, just know that you’re: a) Not alone; b) Better off without him. The dying ex-gay movement spawned out of the Jesus Movement in the early 70s when burnt-out, gay ex-hippies decided that the only way to be gay and Christian was to not be gay any more. And it hasn’t done a SINGLE bit of a good for anybody. Thousands of gay men descended into loveless marriages, drugs and alcohol, self-harm and even suicide when they tried and failed to “turn straight.”
Google John Smid (founder of an ex-gay ministry, still gay), Larry Craig (U.S. Senator, caught soliciting an undercover police officer), Ted Haggard (I’m sure you know his story), John Paulk (former ex-gay coverboy…literally…he made the cover of Newsweek in the late 90s…now he’s living with his boyfriend in Portland), Alan Chambers (a self-hating gay man to end all self-hating gay men). Also George Rekers, an ex-gay powerhouse who spent decades testifying in trials that being could be changed….until he was photographed coming back from Europe with a male prostitute.
ALL of these men fought their true selves for decades, telling anyone who would listen that the gay could be cured, yet they couldn’t even cure themselves. As a result, they left a string of heartbreak and destruction in their respective wake.
There are plenty of resources for women with gay husbands on the Internet. Just know that NONE of this was your fault.
(((GladIt’sOver))) You are a strong woman. You have all my respect.
Chris, yes, my ex is from a very Christian, conservative, Midwest background. He himself is not so conservative, but I think that is entirely my influence over the years. He definitely likes bleating about how he is just like Jesus, and how everything he does is for Him, though. He started having sex with other guys when he was a teenager, and by his own admission, had sex with HUNDREDS of other men during our marriage. Most were anonymous bathhouse encounters, but some were with other married men that I knew. I personally believe he had probably more like 1,000 partners, because you know cheaters never give the entire story. He is very gay in appearance, voice, mannerisms, dress and habits. When he was a little kid, other kids at school picked on him and called him a girl. I know his family “knows” he is gay, but they pretend not to know. His sisters are delusional like him. The whole family are enablers and deniers.
He started having affairs with married women before dumping me, saying he never “felt passion” for me and only married me so I would take care of him, our home and any children we would have. As far as I know, he now claims his gay stuff is over, that his church changed him and the homo stuff was just a “sordid phase” he went through. I know that isn’t true, because I saw his search history in the computer he loaned our son.
He did have sex with women before he knew me, and I think cheated once or twice with women during our marriage before the major affairs. I absolutely expect he will eventually find another woman as blind and stupid as me to marry. I don’t think he’s going to come out. In my defense, I was young and naive when we met, and had never even had a boyfriend before him. Still, the signs were there all along, I simply did some major spackling and denying to pretend it wasn’t happening.
But he is far, far more than just closeted gay. Raging, malignant NPD, untreated ADD, and probably delusional disorder as well. He talks about how he “always knew he was destined to be famous,” “God is opening all the doors to his acting career,” and how huge success is right ahead. He is a big, steaming mess. He still never misses a chance to hurt me or upset me. His hatred and contempt is certainly no longer hidden. It’s crazy that I compare myself unfavorably to him, and even crazier that there are times I miss him still. Or rather, I miss the man he pretended to be.
I’m so sorry you had to endure all of that, GiO. HUNDREDS of men during your marriage. JESUS! Even I’ve never been with that many men, and since my “divorce” I’ve been like a gay Charlie Sheen (except without the drugs).
My best advice to you (and God I hope you’ve gotten yourself tested) is to seek out support from ex-gay survivor outreaches. There’s so many women like you who married gay men, the same men who were bullied by their Church into suppressing their true sexuality.
Yes, your ex does exhibit some extremely shitty behaviors and habits that go far beyond the typical closet case. My point is that when you’re dealing with gay Christians who’ve been taught by their own Churches and families to hate themselves and that their true feelings are sinful, you’re dealing with supremely fucked-up individuals from the outset. As such their pain can manifest itself in very extreme and bizarre ways.
Remember it’s only in the last decade that the LGBT community finally found mainstream acceptance, both in the court of law and court of public opinion. For decades, religious folks have portrayed gay men as drug-fucked, disease-ridden pedophiles. Are you old enough to remember Anita Bryant’s crusades in the late 1970s? Also remember that homosexuality was considered a mental illness until 1973 and that sodomy laws were still on the books in at least a dozen states until 2003 (!!!).
Those are the things that were drilled into your ex’s head his entire life, especially if he came from a hardcore religious background. That sort of thing can really fuck with someone’s mental and emotional stability, which your ex seems to have lost complete control of, based on your comments.
It sounds like he’s staking his life on intangibility and irrationality, from the motivational speeches to the non-existent acting career to the interpretative dance videos. He’s all over the place and honestly GiO I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some drug use involved.
I’ve never met a gay man who cruised bathhouses who DIDN’T use. The amount of meth that’s floating around in those places would put the Breaking Bad guys to shame. Hell, most of the time when guys show up to bath-houses their first priority is getting high. Sex almost becomes an afterthought, especially considering it’s 2013 and a gay guy of any age can easily get laid with the (literal) click of a button, using the Grindr or Skout phone apps or Craigslist. In this day and age, if a man is going to a bath-house, sex is the secondary priority.
At any rate, you need to get far, far away from him and his own special brand of fuckupedness. I’m very active in a Facebook group called Ex-Ex-Gay. It’s Invite-Only, but if you hit up Michael Bussee (himself an ex-gay survivor), he might send you an invite. If you don’t feel comfortable sharing your story on FB using your real name, then there’s plenty of resources online. Plenty of Ex-Gay Wives you can connect with.
Through them you’ll understand that none of this was your fault. You miss the “man he pretended to be,” but you’ll soon come to realize that that was an act he mastered from childhood. Gay Christian kids who are forced down the ex-gay route learn very quickly and early on how to mask their true selves. What you’re seeing now is the volcano finally starting to erupt. I’m sorry it’s so ugly and I’m sorry it’s taken such a toll on you emotionally and financially.
Just know that you’re not alone and you didn’t do ANYTHING to cause this. You were just another woman unfortunately and unknowingly suckered into marrying a gay man who was told by his Church that marrying a woman was the right thing to do and that any deviation from that path in life was sinful and destined for hell, fire and brimstone.
“The Church changed him,” my ass. See my references to Chambers, Smid, Rekers and Paulk above. All of them were former powerhouses and power-brokers in the religiously-charged ex-gay movement. And ALL of them are still gay. I’ve yet to meet a SINGLE ex-gay. They don’t exist.
Sorry Chris but your characterization of Christian based therapy for homosexuals is slightly unfair imo.
Also if you don’t mind me saying so you are making some simplistic assumptions because the guy in question isn’t necessarily gay.
Men with sexual compulsivity and sex addiction often engage in homosexual behaviour and are heterosexual.
They are labelled by psychologists ‘men who have sex with men’.
Facebook is the narcissists dream… they get to completely control their image and make it perfect. Sometimes I feel it’s sole purpose is for bragging.
Bragging, complaining, running their spouse into the ground without them knowing it, finding their past life “friends” to hook up with.. Fakebook.
GIO, normal people feel happy to have 2 real close friends, FB friends are no indication of anything except a person who needs constant attention. You are strong and true and It is easy to load up “friends” on FB anytime, but that shit will not make you happy because you value real friendship over volumes of ppl you don’t really know on FB.
I’m sorry u are struggling financially, if you have room maybe a room mate to help cover costs and might end up w/another friend from that. I knows, shit up Datdamwuf, stop with the practical shit! GIO, sending you Jedi hugs and hope things feel better soon.
Laugh, I meant “shut up” not shit up, sheesh
GIO, the very fact that you are valuable, contributing member of CN and had the wisdom to become part of it is irrefutable proof that you, AND Rumorhasit as well, are incomparably better than your cheating, disordered exes. Stop comparing yourself IMMEDIATELY! You are mighty! hugs
In reading “Runaway Husbands” I came across info that helped explain what my ex saw in his AP. Narcissists don’t seek equal relationships, they want people who admire them. Admiration is more important to them than love. My ex is a professor, and his AP was his former grad student. Even though she married and had two kids of her own, she was really good at admiring my ex, which puffed up his ego. She was 14 years his junior and also his protege. She listened to him, she learned, she rose up in his department.
oh yeah, my ex was with his assistant. Doctor with GED holder I guess 7 or so years younger. She might actually win him in the end as she seems to have no problem blindly admiring him and doing his bidding, etc. Sadly, she probably gets some feelings of prestige just for him choosing to fuck her. Unfortunately for her I don’t think he’ll ever marry her because why buy the milk when she’s giving the cow away for free? And she might offer him 1-2 things, but she’s not really someone he can “show off” to his important friends. Wait, he doesn’t have any important friends because then HE wouldn’t be the most important!
Married or not, whatever. That type of relationship sounds INCREDIBLY boring and empty.
Yes, they want the fan club and cheerleader (who happily puts out) all rolled up into one. Add to that a messianic complex (Drs, dentists, lawyers, PhD.s used to having their orders obeyed unquestioningly) and they can be flattered and blown into total submission, all while thinking they’re in charge and getting what they’re entitled to, finally.
Yeah, my marriage didn’t stand a chance, because I knew him from way back when……How embarassing that he used to be……..ordinary. Best reason in the world to get rid of me. I might blow his cover.
Yep, I knew mine from way back when too. Back when he barely passed high school. He had the brains but no drive. I always felt like I helped him see his potential, encouraged him, etc. Then he outgrew me. Became so important there wasn’t a minute he wasn’t checking his email and text messages because he was so needed by the world.
Yup. Mine admits he never would have gone to graduate school without my support (maybe not even finished college!), and definitely never would have finished the long slog of the PhD. The he leaves me for the girlwoman 12 years younger.
Spot-on, Chumpalicious. So insightful into how these narc types really think.
Toward the end of my marriage, when I was still doing the Pick Me dance, I reminded my then-husband that I am the only person in this world who knows how far he has come, how hard he’s worked, to become the headliner comedian he is today.
I was with him when he got his first shitty-but-paying gig. He was so nervous he got nauseated before he left for the show. It was me who sat in the bathroom with him and did my best to bolster his confidence. Told him he was gonna do great.
Silly me. I thought he would recognize that as an example of intimacy, love, support and loyalty. It was for me, anyway. For him, I honestly think that bringing it up was a reminder that I knew his dirty little secret.
He didn’t really get offered a six-month engagement at a comedy club after winning his first open-mic contest there. That’s what he tells people. But I know the truth. He struggled for years, just like every other fledgling comic. He would prefer that people think he was some golden boy whose talent was so speshul that club owners recognized him for the star he would become.
Like you said, he saw me as the one person capable of blowing his cover. What I perceived as an asset, he perceived as a liability.
My ex would rather have a bunch of strangers “like” him on Facebook than have the actual love of a wife. A wife requires some sort of commitment and reciprocity, the strangers are pure narcissistic supply.
I actually told him during our bogus reconciliation that it seemed he wanted a cheerleader, not a wife. He didn’t understand the difference. He said of course he expected his wife to entirely support everything he did and never show any “negativity.” He kept threatening to “find someone to encourage him” if I didn’t tow the line. He also said he wanted a woman who was an extension of him. Despite that, I kept on trying until he told me he saw no reason to work on the marriage, because I obviously wouldn’t accept him if he didn’t have a job. At that point, I had to give up. Plus, I was pretty certain he was still cheating during the reconciliation.
yeah… my wasband, when he was unemployed thought it would be a great idea to do the convert analog records to digital. Fair enough. It would take him 2 hours to do one record for a charge of $8/per record. My neighbor nearly pissed in her pants at the idea that he would be earning a whopping FOUR DOLLARS AN HOUR. Then, there was the “personal home page” with a pretty picture in the background that would change daily and links to all of your favorite sites. This was at about the time that computers were remembering your favorites. In any case, that was also not very profitable.
I kindly told him that those ideas sounded nice— that is if he were 75 years old and didn’t have a family to support. Of course, I wasn’t being supportive. I suggested that he go to career counseling and/or back to college. Again, this is not supportive because he did not have the capability to do what he was supposed to do.
You see… we can’t win for trying. sucks.
I’m still not convinced that STBX is NPD, but since affairs are inherently narcissistic, there’s something of the narcissist in them. That’s why this comment about narcissists desiring unequal relationships really hit home with me because OW is definitely a trade down.
After Dday, I took stock of my situation. I realized I used to be more personally ambitious. I used to be thinner. I used to run 10 miles in the morning. I used to have more of a social life, and I used to be more active in community volunteering. I gave up a lot of me in order to help STBX feel better, feel less stressed, etc. He paid me back by having an affair. Screw him!
I lost weight, got a much better job, and have–as far as possible under the circumstances–disengaged from his personal life drama.
Even though I’ve not yet filed, I feel TONS better. I’m also chomping at the bit to file now, since I did the pick-me dance for me and decided that I liked the me I see now.
Lyn’s comment about unequal relationships reminded me that OW is very good at admiring STBX. She feeds him that cake. He gets more cake because he makes more money than she does, so she’s in his debt. He loves that. STBX isn’t as smart as him, but since she was one of his employees, he trained and mentored her. Of course she can admire him for that. He’s sooooo intelligent, and she clearly recognizes his brilliance!
I’m coming to the realization that my confidence is a threat to him. My intellect is also a threat. Now the fact that I’ve regained the physical appearance I had 13 years ago is a threat. The fact that the dogs listen to me and not to him (hey, I listened to our high-powered trainer) is also a threat.
All this means is that in his mind, he’s trading up, even though normal people would see him as trading down.
I had a revelation today along that line.
My xH wanted me to worship him. He didn’t want to have to consider my wants and needs, didn’t want to wonder if he was good enough for me, didn’t want to have to try very hard. Not even with his kids–they stopped worshipping him, too. Chump son talks about that.
So he left for a sparkly twat who pretended to worship him just enough to lure him away from the family he didn’t value, because we expected some effort from him.
I don’t miss him. Sometimes I miss what I thought we had or what I thought we could have, but now, looking back at all the work I had to do to spackle over the truth? I don’t miss him.
Stephanie, you’ve woken up to the reality of living with a narcissist! This is EXACTLY what they want. Our ‘normal’ Chumpy minds work so differently than this, it takes years, sometimes decades, to really understand what they are thinking and what they want.
Lyn, that’s the exact dynamic that my XWH and the Owife has. As witnessed by friends, she apparently dances attendance on him quite a bit. Add to that the fact that she’s jobless, has no college degree and very few friends/family, and she’s the perfect wife for him– she pretty much has no one but him, and I’ve never seen her out anywhere in our community without him. It’s actually sort of creepy.
I think in most cases the OM/OW are not the problem, our X’s just didn’t say “NO”. OM/OW ? They were simply the ones that took the bait. I know I did the whole ” what does he have that I don’t” thing, which turned out other than making more money…… nothing. So what did he get out of the deal? A woman older than himself who has proven her untrustworthiness, is 20 years past her “Best before ” date** and according to recent reports, now in full blown peri-menopause. In some ways I almost feel sorry for the Chump.
** Don’t get me wrong, to my “Husband goggled” eyes she was still the girl I married, I wouldn’t have left her if she had become a quadraplegic.
I feel the same way except for the part about feeling sorry for the AP. I would have stayed with her to had she become quadriplegic.
Why she couldn’t say no to a guy she dumped back in HS for cheating on her 30 yrs ago. What a HUGE step backward in time and a HUGE step down. I agreed with her when she told me she hit rock bottom. Not to hard to figure out why. It’s because she’s spending time with bottom feeders…
Narcs have a real dilemma;
– they want a partner who shines, because that reflects well on them
– they can’t have a partner who shines, because that takes away from the light on them
Replace ‘shines’ with ‘looks good’, ‘is smart’, ‘is well-liked’ etc, and you’ll see what seems to have happened to many of us in our relationships w/narcissists. They want us because we’re quality people, then they have to tear us down, then they look down on us if they manage to do that.
There’s a similar dilemma for the chump, while trying to make things work w/the narc;
– if you stand up to them, they hate you w/a white-hot rage
– if you let them walk all over you, they start despising you pretty fast
They get all tangled up in these dilemmas, then have to start afresh w/someone else, in the ridiculous hope that it’ll come out differently. But THEY are the same, so the outcome is unlikely to be different ….
Ya can’t win, no way no how. Trust that they suck.
“- if you stand up to them, they hate you w/a white-hot rage
– if you let them walk all over you, they start despising you pretty fast”
That’s the most succinct rendering of the no-win situation I was in that I have ever seen.
Since I did both, at one time or another, there was a lot or raging and despising going on. As bad as it was, divorce was the escape hatch from the marriage that was going down in flames due to all the unseen sabotage.
Chumpalicious, the raging and despising had gotten better around here, because I wasn’t putting up w/any more bullshit. Probably one of the reasons that seemed like a good time, to him, to have an affair! So even if the chump figures out a way not to participate in that sick dilemma any more, they STILL lose!!!
I really didn’t realize how bad my relationship was until well out of it; living in PEACE is AMAZING!!!!! Sounds like you’re experiencing something similar.
Exactly. I can’t imagine any relationship I would trade this peace for.
When the great opera singer Beverly Sills quit singing, she had a bracelet made with the letters I.D.T.A. on it — inscribed or as charms, I don’t know — It stood for “I did that already” and she looked at that whenever she felt pressured to sing again. So many other things in life to experience.
That’s why the cake is so enticing… they have their spouse to “show off” to the public but treat like crap at home (because said spouse actually expects to be treated like an equal) and then the side piece to just blindly admire them and do what they say.
You said it absolutely the best. I used to call it the “set me up to fail” plan. I got to the point where I could almost see it coming. He loved to keep me in those traps (“Why don’t you speak up for yourself?” he asks. Then, I do. Then, he loses his mind and says horrible, degrading things to me. Then, I cry. Then, he says he despises me for being weak and overly emotional.) This went on and on for the last few years, along with cheating that I just completely blanked out of my mind. Earlier this year, I was almost a zombie from the mind games and verbal abuse and physical intimidation. So he decides to leave because I’m “not giving him enough attention.” My poor daughter was (and remains) caught in the middle — still trying to maintain her relationship with her dad and also trying to support me as I slowly come back to life. I’m just now working my way out of this tangled emotional mess, even though I played the pick me dance for a couple of months. But I surprised myself yesterday by going to my attorney’s office and filing for divorce. I think I realized finally that it was never going to get any better, that things were not going back to the way they were in those first sparkly, wonderful months together (with a few good times thrown in along the way over the next 18 years to keep me hooked). I think I realized finally that the person I thought I loved simply does not exist anymore, if he ever did. That’s a terrible, startling conclusion to reach after such a long time together. I’m not completely at “meh” yet, but I’m pretty sure I’m at “I’m not gonna take this anymore.”
OMG, the “why don’t you stand up for yourself” and then you do and then it’s not what they wanted because you actually argue with them…. so true for my case too. Keep in mind that I have always been the one with the stable, well paying job in a management position. I am the one with the college degree (he a drop out). My colleagues respect me and love me. I have friendships that go back 20 years from my very first job… Often times I look at myself and wonder – am I the bipolar one – such a difference between how I am perceived at work and at home by husband (kids and family love me, though, and know that I can always be trusted to be there for them) and worry part – how I act and behave at work and at home. It is crazy, I know
So true! Thank you for pointing it out!
It is always tough not to compare yourself to the AP. in my case, she is very much like me in education, physical appearance, etc ; just 12 yrs younger. I got traded in for younger model.
Almost worse for me, exH has admitted to daughter that he was “numb” during the marriage,, etc. Tough for me, because why is it NOW that he can admit that, and improve himself? Why could he not do that over the YEARS that I tried to get him to be active, demonstrate passion for something, etc. He will improve for her, but not for me or his family.
In my case, I know, it’s doubtful he can rise above. And really, they were both cheaters, both still married when they got together. Time will tell.
And by the time we can tell, I will be a “meh” and on to the next stage of my wonderful life.
Remember, Rumorhasit, you are a strong woman. You put your family first, and did your best. You did not lie or cheat. You were not a coward. Stay strong.
Why would you bother comparing yourself to a lying, scheming ho-bag first of all, and why would you compare yourself to a lying, scheming ho-bag and find yourself wanting? She volunteers? And? So do pedophile priests and they are still pedophile priests and of poor character. The OW sucks!
The reason your husband chose to cheat with the ho-bag has absolutely nothing to do with your perceived “lack” and everything to do with some Planet Asinine vision of the world playing out in his head. Whatever he may have said or implied to you is merely a way for him to avoid assuming responsibility for his grotesque treatment of you and your child. Stop focusing on your perceived deficits and start adding up your credits. You will find that there are far more of those. It’s just that living with these pigs from hell has meant that we’ve lost sight of our best qualities – you know, those things that your H constantly relied on when he was living with you.
Fuck That Guy and That Ho-Bag he rode away on. You are better than the both of them because you are not a lying, cheating, scheming and underhanded POS.
“Fuck That Guy and That Ho-Bag he rode away on.”
GHAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Hilarious! Hahahah!
Where do you get the idea from that he’s going to improve himself?? He won’t, they are incapable of that.
He didn’t improve in the marriage because they just want to be the martyr, have something to complain about and do the whole woe-is-me thing but then never actually do anything to fix whatever the problem is. And he probably got irritated with you for suggesting solutions and trying to help when all you are supposed to do is say “poor baby” and agree with everything he says. And that’s where the OW steps in…
I know, he probably will not improve himself, but given that he is finally acknowledging his issues, finally admitted to daughter that he and new wife were cheating, both still married when they got together.
So, he just might do it. But the odds are long.
For me that is the rub…. 13 years he could not be honest with me and work on the marriage; I could have moved on much sooner, been with someone who truly cared about me and the children.
But really, probably not, as just last month I was blamed for the lack of relationship between the kids and the AP/new wife. Uh, no. You are the one who decided to get remarried before the kids had even met her.
anyway, a bit of a backsliding moment for me this week (really, I am 95% there!).
I had a nice date on Sunday, and we hope to get together soon….
Totally understand you’re “backsliding moment,” but the reality for you eventually will become “who cares about the EX, whether they are ‘better,’ worse or the same as when married to you.” Cheating while married is just plain old disgusting. It’s accomplished by lies, deceit, manipulation, mind-games, blame-shifting, gas-lighting, etc. It is the PERFECT example of how to live a soulless, immoral, selfish life. That’s why the cheater always has to lie, blame and pin it all of you.
The truth of it is none of us really want to be associated with anybody who cheats. It makes any relationship with them impossible. So AP-Honest Spouse comparisons are pointless. Be who you are meant to be — a GOOD, DECENT HONEST PERSON. That is its own reward!!
That has been my mantra this year: I am a good, honest, caring person.
He was the lying, lazy, selfish coward. Nothing can change what he did.
I am truly looking forward to finding someone new who will truly care about me, and will appreciate my love and caring.
Wish some of you great guys lived my way 😉
I went through that “comparison” thing with my ex’s AP, then (more notably) with his girlfriend once we separated. Seems he has a thing with intellectual/artistic types, which I sort of was until 20 years of marriage lessened my luster. AP was an artist and interior designer. GF was a rock climber and architect. I’m a little embarrassed to admit how I dealt with the feelings of jealousy for this woman…she seemed a little too similar to me for my comfort, as I was once a backbacking, outdoorsy kind of woman who took up the study of preservation and architectural history after I separated. This “new and improved” version was getting to me.
One night I got myself good and liquored up. Then I did some research about the GF. Found out that though she indeed studied architecture, she didn’t get around to certifying with the AIA. I also don’t think she’s even with a firm–she’s working at some computer firm or other. Yes, I know that’s catty, but it helped take the sparkle away. Meow…
Hey, it also helps that my old neighbors (now called “informants”) tell me that I’m better looking, and she looks like a lump of dough. Honestly, if he marries the Pillsbury dough girl, I hope my daughters get along with her, and I have encouraged them to be nice to her. But GF isn’t always very nice to them. Those stories are for another time.
I don’t think anybody here must feel really sparkly after being the object of betrayal and rejection–I know I don’t. I try to remind myself that integrity is more important. Maybe real quality will shine through eventually?
Sorry its taken all day for me to reply! Thank you for the answer, CL. You’re absolutely right, I’m fairly certain Mrs. Robinson (my nickname for the OW) does these things because 1) she always has to be in charge and 2) for the ego kibbles from praise. I hate it that she gets praise. I want to scream that she sucks. That she isn’t worth her coupons. Its like she is the popular girl and I’m not, and I need to remember that being popular doesn’t matter. Also that I knew she was nutty from the first time I ever spoke to her (and it was on the phone.) So most people probably see that she isn’t all there. It just hasn’t effected them as profoundly. She is a manipulator.
Thank you so so much for all the supportive replies, too!
Oh and the “homewrecker badge” was hilarious! My X’s contact pic in my phone is of an “Asshole Merit Badge” 🙂
If you could tell she’s nuts from the first time you spoke with her on the phone, then your assumption that others can is very likely true. Also, yes it’s true that her nuttiness hasn’t affected them as profoundly–at least not unless she made a move on the married men.
However, you might wonder why the volunteer organizations can’t see through her guise? The answer is that they can, but they can’t afford to tell her no. I used to be involved with organizing volunteers, and most organizations are so desperate for people to become involved (and even more desperate for people interested in leading activities) that they need to accept people they think are nuts, but not so nuts that they’ll affect the organization’s ability to do its job.
But yeah, they know she’s nuts.
Trust that OW sucks. I googled the Asshole Merit Badge. That’s hilarious!
Remember, you’re a survivor. That should get a merit badge too.
I am not at all impressed with this OW. The way I was raised, metaphorically speaking, you needed to have your own house pretty damn clean before you could go out to do your good works in the community. Public do-gooders were always looked at with suspicion by my parents, and consequently by me as well. And this OW is the perfect example of why; she is making a show of her worth because she is obviously missing a large piece of her soul (possibly the piece called integrity).
Focusing most, if not all, of your energy on raising your son is fully noble. I tend to place a very high value on people who are good parents, good friends, generous and kind to others, those friends who keep on listening to the end of your story when everybody else at the party drifted toward the buffet while you were mid-senetence (maybe that just happens to me!), friends who will help you move, people who give the courtesy wave when someone leaves room for them in a line of traffic, etc.. You get the idea. Although people who fit this description may also be avid volunteers all over town, I have yet to encounter that combination. And obviously this OW ain’t it. My bet is that you are most likely a person of integrity who does not need to put on a show. She is dis-integrated. She sucks. I like you way better!
Volunteer? Yes, she was a Red Cross volunteer in the CITY hospital ( I am a doctor) . You know for what? So as to meet a Doctor ( her dream ) before leaving her husband . Have you thought of that? A great place to meet pathetic incecure future husband. I myself have been thinking to volunteer in the medicines sans frontierres. Not so much sparkle, yes?
Hi– So– a threadjack buried here… I just found an article on Salon, super snarky! but it points to research about two distinct types of narcissism, Overt (grandiose, aggressive) and covert (inward, sensitive, poor hurt sausage).
Totally fascinating,and for me, it explains some of what I see in the relationship patterns we all describe…. some of us were partnered with assholes who were the overt-aggressive types, others, like me, with the shirking violet, everybody (secretly) hates me but I won’t say so types…
Anyway, here’s one of the early psych articles on the research. Just skip to the bottom and read the discussion, unless you’re a stats geek like me.
I found this site during my protracted (1&1/2 year) divorce process. About narcissism written by a narcissist. Super interesting. Gave me a lot of insight into the mental workings of the ex.
Jump to his journal entry page:
It helped me to realize there was going to be no “fixing” my ex, and he never really was who I thought he was anyway.
Rumorhasit: Holy shit…if I had a nickel for EVERY TIME I compared myself to the OW, I would have had enough for a round the world trip. TWICE.
Chumplady is so freaking wise when she says: ‘The only reason to strive to be impressive, to be a better you, is for YOU.’ BINGO.
Another golden nugget is this ‘Every time you compare, you’re giving these idiots your energy. Save it for yourself, save it for the people who deserve you, like your son.”
It takes work to be a kickass version of yourself. (BTW Love that term: kickass!)
I wish I would not have wasted so much time and energy comparing myself to the complete douchebag that the OW clearly is.’
Shine on RUMORHASIT, shine on. You have more moxie, intelligence, integrity and heart than that soulless bitch could have in 5 lifetimes.
CL is very wise. The OW in my situation is none of these things, but I was great friends with a colleague who was EXACTLY like this. She was amazing at sparkle– she made you feel like you were the only important person in the universe when she talked to you. She was amazing at flattery, made you feel like you had tons in common with her, and had a fantastic sense of humor (part of the sparkle). I thought that we were best friends for several years, but I didn’t realize until much later that she kept me around because I was “of use” to her and that I was friends with nothing more than a facade. I basically helped her get through a rough patch at work when she had alienated several colleagues (hello, red flag?), so she then attached herself to me, and I mistakenly thought I had made a great friend.
Long story short, she started an EA with a colleague (which may have gone to a PA; I don’t know for sure), and once she had him as a source of ego kibbles, she dropped me like a hot potato. It was very painful– I wondered what I had done. Why doesn’t she respond to my emails? Why don’t we hang out any more? It wasn’t until I talked to another close friend that I realized that I wasn’t the only one receiving this treatment. Our whole group of mom friends (you know, women who were faithful to their husbands and embraced their family lives) had been ditched, just as the so-called friend was ditching her own husband and daughter to pursue a hobby that put her in constant contact with the AP (who was married with his own kids).
When I finally put two and two together, she and I had managed to get together for a meal, and it was one of the most uncomfortable experiences of my whole life. The mask was off– I was sitting before a cheater who wanted to spend the whole time justifying her behavior to me (long before my own experience with XWH’s A), and it was like I was sitting with an alien twin version of my friend. Only, it wasn’t an alien twin– that was who she really was. She just no longer appeared sparkly and fun to me– she was a selfish, homewrecking loser who treated the friendship I offered her like dirt. I realized that day that I no longer wished to associate with her. And I don’t, at least not on a social level. When she tries to draw me in with flattery at work, I brush her off and keep her at arm’s length.
Rumor, the OW in your situation is nothing but a sociopath. It reminds me of that quote from Hamlet: “That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.” She is nothing more than an elaborate display of fireworks and special effects that are meant to distract you from the fact that the band is lip-synching and doesn’t really have any talent. She plays at the “perfect mom” role, but when I was a SAHM, it never occurred to me to screw a friend’s husband. In fact, how great are you if you are devoting your time and energy to an affair? That’s time and energy that you’re not devoting to your children, your marriage, good causes, your job, etc.
Don’t try to be like her, or you will lose your soul. She can run the PTA and sell brownies at the school fundraiser as much as she likes, but she’s still nothing but a fraud with an empty space where her heart should be.
Such a timely topic. It’s been 10 months since my d-day ( i suspected all along, but this is the day I had proof) and while I deal better with the thought of the OW, I am still obsessed with her. Partly because i’m sure my future ex is either seeing her again or ramping up to make it happen. She’s not better than me so I don’t struggle with that. I struggle with that she really is very pretty and I genuinely think in another life i’d actually really like her and would be friends. But more importantly, I just can’t shake the need for my future ex to NOT WIN! He hasn’t realized that she seems sparkly because they haven’t had anything major to clash over. So she’s still an escape. Like I feel it in my bones that i’d be ok if started dating anyone (but wont’ know for sure until i’m faced with it) but naturally i’m NOT ok if its her. And the future ex I KNOW is not this dense, but of course he is trying to convince me that him dating the OW is no different than me dating anyone at this point. Uh, yeah, because you dating the person you were lying to me about and sneaking around with when I was still very much married to you in my mind is no different than the now, which is I’ve filed for divorce and both parties are in complete agreement there is nothing to salvage and are separated.
The funny thing that I will never understand is that the future ex is the one that wanted out – had the affair to get me on the same page – i’m doing all the work – he’s not done ONE single thing to make the divorce happne (not one!!!!) and yet I still can’t get this done!!! Who says they want a divorce and then doesn’t do a thing to make it happen for almost 2 years! Yes I finally had him served just the other day. Chumpy me for thinking he could divorce right when he couldn’t end the marriage right. That’s why I love love love this site!!! Soooo much clarity gained from everyone’s experiences.
The main thing is to disengage from the mind-fuck of cheating and cheaters. So, first, about the divorce. Of course, he is not doing anything to make it final bc he can make you do it. Classsic passive-aggressive cheater behaviour (it’s the same reason he was not about the OW). He gets a thrill from playing with your mind. It makes him feel good about his shitty self.
Second, I don’t really understand how you can say you would like the OW if the circumstances were different. The circumstances are NOT different. She’s a loser who dated a married man, knew she was doing so, did it anyway, and did it purposefully and with the knowledge she would hurt you (and your kids if you have any). She is a total loser, no matter what else she has done with her life, just bc of her cheating. It’s a deal breaker as they say. Why would you be friends with someone like that?
Third, you don’t need to worry about your EX winning. He’s not. When someone cheats with a married man or woman, by definition the “competition” is severely compromised. They suck as humans. How lame is that. Cheaters, all of them, operate in DENIAL. That’s why they lie and tell you it is all your fault, or the AP is the love of their life. How you can really say the AP is the love of your life when the relationship commenced with nothing but lies and deceit. It’s like investing in a Bernie Madoff investment fund. It’s a house of cards, and nothing more. Let them have it.
For an honest spouse, the nasty, subtle difficulty of cheating really is the lies, deceit and blame-shifting. What Chump Lady calls “mindfuckery.” The statement that the Cheater and AP are “just friends” when your gut tells you it is something more, etc. Well, the mind-fuck does not end just bc you have a D-Day. It then becomes things like “I could like the AP in another life” or “I don’t want my EX to ‘win” even though we are getting divorced” or “why won’t my EX do anything to process the divorce.”
The great thing is that you can turn the tables by how you approach the situation. The key is living in reality. He cheated = he sucks as a person and husband. She cheated with my EX = she sucks as a person and a future partner for anybody. Cheaters cannot win at anything in life, no matter what else they do, unless they are truly contrite and remorseful. Probably not gonna happen.
Once you see the reality of what has happened, the mind-fuck ends. You are free. Let them date, get your divorce done, live your life according to your values. That is the only win you should care about. And guess what…this approach really fucks with the cheaters mind the most. They aren’t “central” to you, they don’t have an advantage over you, and, not only have they not won, they have lost. YOU CONTROL THE OUTCOME. They hate that the most.
“The funny thing that I will never understand is that the future ex is the one that wanted out – had the affair to get me on the same page – i’m doing all the work – he’s not done ONE single thing to make the divorce happne (not one!!!!) and yet I still can’t get this done!!! Who says they want a divorce and then doesn’t do a thing to make it happen for almost 2 years!”
My X (I keep meaning to clarify, X and I weren’t married, just in a serious relationship that involved a surprise baby. Marriage was on the table though, or so he let me think.) didn’t leave me on his own. His relationship with OW was inappropriate, I sat him down and discussed boundaries with people of the opposite sex, he agreed to not see her alone. And then he did anyway (I may have never known, but he got belligerent with his daughter’s mom on the phone and kept referring to a gf who was clearly not me, and daughter’s mom called me to ask what was going on.) So I said “Check please!” And he went public with his new relationship. And yet… he still wanted me along during visitation with our son. And got quite mad that I refused to see him. He’s since stopped asking, but he was 1) going to carry on two relationships as long as he could and 2) going to try to suck ego kibbles out of me even after I left him. Even after he rewrote history and said how unhappy he had been. A clean break means no cake.
Press on, get that divorce! You deserve as clean a break as you can get.
We’re you married to an AF tsgt named Dave? So just like my situation…he left via exit affair and a phone call, served me divorce papers out of the blue and then nothing….kept me hooked on hopium and doing the pick me cha cha for far too long…man oh man did he get pissed and try to drag it out once I took the bull by the horns to move forward. It took me almost 5 months to realize that he was doing nothing to help the marriage while I was spending hours and hours reading books, going to counseling, fixing/changing every damn thing that was “wrong with me” according to him…he noticed but it was “too little, too late” until I moved things forward…then I got the poor me he had hoped things would work out with us but I gave up too easily speech…all the while he had his girlfriend and I was plan B.
Ashley August 28, 2013 at 9:24 pm
We’re you married to an AF tsgt named Dave? So just like my situation…he left via exit affair and a phone call, served me divorce papers out of the blue and then nothing….kept me hooked on hopium and doing the pick me cha cha for far too long…man oh man did he get pissed and try to drag it out once I took the bull by the horns to move forward. It took me almost 5 months to realize that he was doing nothing to help the marriage while I was spending hours and hours reading books, going to counseling, fixing/changing every damn thing that was “wrong with me” according to him…he noticed but it was “too little, too late” until I moved things forward…then I got the poor me he had hoped things would work out with us but I gave up too easily speech…all the while he had his girlfriend and I was plan B.
Rumorhasit: My H is trading down to a HS dropout who was a crossing guard. I look at pictures of her and she is so much prettier than I am, but I don’t compare myself to her. If the 2 of them get together after I’m gone he will expect her to be me, putting him first as I have done for many years. I don’t think it will last. His work schedule leaves me alone for many hours but I am use to it and do alot of different things to keep myself entertained. I figure it will take her about a month to find the local bar. PS my H is 7 yrs younger than I am. I do not look for that it just ahppens.
Rumorhasit, you hold your head up high!
Life with my XH literally turned my hair grey by 30 and I was a tad frumpy and not particularly sparkly. I felt fat (all size 12 of me after having a baby a month earlier) and she was oh so cute and pretty and fun and young. OK
But I was smart, and I earned every grey hair on my head – and I supported a family – all by my frumpy grey-haired self – I scrimped and saved and bought a us a house – no help to him. And none of his sparkly little beauties ever did anything but latch onto his sparkly, charming self – then dump him when he revealed he had no pot to piss in.
My revenge – after divorce I just transformed – felt better, looked better, and liked life.
Matt – you are exactly right about everything! It’s nice to sit here and know i’ve made leaps and bounds, but also goes to show it’s an ongoing process to get to that meh right?
And yes rumorhasit – cake eaters! It’s so funny because even though i’ve been reading this site for nearly 10 months now, it’s only been in the last month where I can truly connect what everyone is saying to my future ex. Even though I had accepted the situation I was still thinking that oh my future ex doesn’t quite fit what everyone is saying. One day it finally clicked – after he sent a text to me thanking me for making an effort to be nice to him, that he knew it wasn’t easy. I almost responded in true chump fashion but then that’s the moment it clicked – I would have been giving him a pat on the back. I finally realized – why should he be thanking me – wouldn’t it make more sense if he was just truly being nice, therefore no need for me to make any effort?? BTW I was making no such effort so I don’t know what he saw ahahahahah!!!! So see everyone – these moments to come out of nowhere on a Tuesday! Whether it be about comparing yourself to the OW/OM or connecting the dots on the offending partners behavior – YOU WILL GET THERE!!!
Oh, forgot to say I served his ass on Monday. I went out and celebrated – entirely too drunk for a Monday night…AHAHAHAH!!!!
It’s was nice to read your post. I’ve been reading this site for about 2 months and it has helped immensely. I definitely go back and forth with knowing my STBX is a narcissist and still believing he loved me. He acts like he loved me, and he seems heartbroken at times, but then again I can see the narcissistic side of the situation. He’s been with my ex-friend for a year but yet still asks to come home and he doesn’t want a divorce, all the while telling her the exact opposite. The audacity of his statements confuses me to no end.
All that is left is for him to sign his side of the papers and he is stalling!! WTF, he’s going to spend all weekend with his hairlip, yet refuses to sign our divorce papers. He keeps asking me if this is really what I want! WHAT! You ruined my wedding! You ruined my finances! You ruined my friendship with your whore! You ruined our lives! Yet he still has the nerve to say, “It could’ve been you and me with my family this weekend instead of me and her. Your really missing out know that I have it (cheating) under control.” That’s what he told me this morning.
I’ve taken a giant step back since I know our divorce will be final in a couple of weeks, hopefully anyway. I want “meh” so badly. I just keep coming to this site and reading. Just to keep reminding myself of how bad it got, sometimes you can forget when your feeling loney.
Send an email to the OW flattering her saying that you know he loves her and listens to her etc. and if she could please convince him to sign the divorce papers. No accusations – that will get her defensive – but if she knows the papers are there and it’s not you trying to cling on to him or whatever he’s been telling her, he’ll be getting pressure from both sides to sign.
Yep, those are my exact intentions. I’m giving him till next week and then I’m sending her a note just like that.
Why wait? Send it to her as they begin their get-away. See how pleasant their vacation is with that constantly on their minds.
He just got them Tuesday and I feel like it’s the right thing to do to give him a week in case he wants a lawer to look them over.
Yay! I can finally comment again! But now I forgot all the clever things I wanted to say in answer to everyone’s comments…:(
I struggle with this much more than I care to admit. It took SW about a week to find her second AP/victim and she ended up in her “dream” life of a mansion on a private drive, big money and rolls around in his BMW. On bad days this fucks with my Chump head and I think about moving, that I wasn’t enough………I just have to remember that she is a crazy NPD/BPD alcoholic, and no matter how it looks, she lied, cheated and stole from me and she is no prize.
I feel you man, stbxw found new guy about a week before or after she dropped the bomb (depending on whose story you believe).
She isn’t moving up, however it fucks with my mind so bad. Knowing that I was happy and I was ready for us to move into a new place where it was in between both of our families, hearing her tell me lovey dovey shit all the time just to find out she was having an AP. She found a reason to jump ship and that is because I “didn’t trust her” well duh. I want to get to the place mentally where I don’t see her as a prize. I don’t know why I do now. Effing roller coaster.
I’m glad I filed but I constantly play the “What if’s” in my head over and over.
Final OW in my sitch is more than 20 years younger. She’s not more attractive or more intelligent or more interesting, but she’s fitter and younger and she marvels that she got this handsome middle aged charming guy. He sparkles and she squeals. The age thing bugged me for a long time, because it felt like such a cliché, but then the more I heard about her and saw things I realised that of course he wanted someone young and naive…I was on to him and after 20 years together it was pretty hard for him to keep the mask on. I’d seen him through everything. Naturally I thought that meant something, that we had a deep, deep relationship. Turns out he’d been cheating for years and was simply paying lip service to our relationship by saying the right things but not doing much else.
Now he has her jumping through hoops, going along with his needs and propping him up. I’ve said it before and I*ll say it again, I almost feel sorry for her.
This could have been written by myself, close enough scenario that’s for sure!! You’re comment “I’d seen him through everything” , totally get that ,and how you felt” it meant something”, perhaps a deeper respect or commiserate in each other or other deep sound love groundings that keep two people locked together in love and trust? I do know mine hopped in with someone 22 years younger ,have heard she sleeps around, but then the 1st one I learned of was much younger and went after married guys I have had to except that much of what I believed to be valid, real , and true of our 20 year marriage , was a farce . Am thankful to be off the cheater Merry Go round, just trying to build a new life, one day at a time.
Honestly, I see nothing wrong with comparing ourselves to others. I do it all the time, to the woman sweating next to me at the gym, to my peers at work, to the driver next lane who drives the same car model as mine, to my kids’ parents, to the woman at the mall that is turning heads and has the same body structure as mine, to my cousins, to random women (and even men on the street). I think this is how I (we) grow. We see something better and strive to achieve it, we see something worse, and this gives us a boost… So, keep comparing, just take the negativity out and see what you can take to help you improve, look better and feel better
File this under “trust that they suck.” What the OW won’t tell you, but her co-worker will while standing amongst the produce in the grocery store is that the OW slept with her son when her husband was out of town. The OW told her, herself.
I did the comparison thing & assumed she was all together, balanced & a step up from me. It was my stepson (my ex’s kid he left with me when he went on his cheater way) who challenged my assumption she was all that.
I told my therapist who also counseled my stepson that she was a pedophile. He doubted me, saying, “Well, why isn’t she in jail?”
Then a while down this therapy road I mentioned again about her pedophilia & that I didn’t want my stepson over there. Therapist had forgotten all about it, told me to “remind” him how she was a pedophile & said it must’ve been too horrible a thing, that’s why he “forgot.” His answer was that there are pedophiles everywhere & the kid should learn assertiveness to deal with it.
Yep, they ALL suck.
If you must compare, compare integrity, morals & values. Remember, the karma bus is a comin. The shit, indeed, will hit the fan.