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Dear Chump Lady, How do I get to “meh” in a world full of cheaters?

Hi CL,

Here’s my latest struggle:

How to reach ‘Meh’ in a world full of cheaters?

There are so many cheaters everywhere, it’s too much! People I looked up to? Turns out they were cheaters. I get triggered whenever I hear of a new one.

My mom has always loved Liz Claiborne (not knowing her real story, of course). I have fond memories of my mom wearing the clothes and perfume. Now? It makes me want to choke. I don’t even have the heart to tell my mom the true story of LC because she would be so disappointed and probably throw all that stuff away, and that includes a *lifetime* of LC clothing, and some of her nicer outfits.

Some of my own relatives? Turn out they were cheaters. Musicians, artists, actors, writers, historical figures. The list goes on and on. Politicians. Government officials. And not just cheating sex-wise — money cheating, lies by omission, etc.

What troubles me is that these people are not the exceptions. They aren’t rare. There are a lot of them. It’s hard to live life without supporting cheaters, directly or by accident. I want to rip out history books. I want to not buy products from known cheaters. I want to scream at the top of my lungs that so many of these people that we look up to today are self-serving narcs who did really bad things that hurt people.

What’s a good way to deal with all this? How can us chumps live authentically without supporting these cheater’s empires (as succinctly stated by MovingOn)? Because I can’t seem to hear Johnny Cash without rolling my eyes. And I can’t seem to watch a damned Brad Pitt movie without thinking of how he lost all his hotness points when he screwed over Jennifer Aniston.


Dear LiningUpDucks,

You only have to divorce one person — your cheater. You don’t have to divorce Johnny Cash. My cheating ex was a patent attorney. I’m sure he was a perfectly adequate, maybe even passably decent patent attorney. There was nothing about his wandering dick that didn’t make him unable to comprehend nanotechnology or metal alloys and the U.S. patent system. My advice to the world is — DO NOT DATE THIS MAN. Hire him as a patent attorney? Sure. Okay. Whatever.

As much as I wish it weren’t so, to rise to the top of most fields, a lot of those people tend to be narcissistic. Or, in many cases, flaming caldrons of dysfunction. (My husband calls this the Asshole Theory of Greatness.) It’s up to you to decide how much of their crazy you want to boycott. Aretha Franklin allegedly doesn’t pay her taxes. I LOVE Aretha Franklin. I’m sorry, but her problems with the IRS do not eclipse her genius.

One important caveat here — the majority of narcissists are NOT great. They just think they are. Their last claim to fame was their 1983 SAT scores. They have a shit load of entitlement and grandiosity that has no correlation to any actual accomplishment or giftedness. Please note that the singer songwriter boyfriend living in your basement is probably NOT going to grow up to be Johnny Cash.

That said, some narcissist cheaters actually have real talent. Bill Clinton was a gifted politician. Johnny Cash made wonderful music. Liz Claiborne made casual separates that appealed to middle America. Should we erase these people’s accomplishments and enjoyment from our lives because they were shits in their personal lives? That is something only you can decide for yourself. Personally, I’m never watching another Woody Allen movie ever again. Johnny Cash? Nope, my iPod playlists remain. You may decide differently.

In the 1980s, I lived in a Marxist group house in London. A bunch of middle-class university student Marxists. We had one actual working-class member of our collective — an electrician/art student from Newcastle. He used to come home drunk from the pub and pick fights with the earnest Marxists. He’d shout: “IT’S OKAY IF YOU WANT TO SAVE THE FUCKING NAMIBIANS! SO’S LONG AS YA GET A DECENT WAGE!”

Anyway, the Marxists (and myself, a watered down lefty of muddled politics) would boycott every food stuff. We couldn’t eat eggs (I forgot why), we couldn’t eat Chilean grapes, no fruit from South Africa. It got to the point that the only thing permissible to eat was lentils, and I think even those were suspect.

My point is — choose your battles. It’s an imperfect world out there and if you boycott too many things on principle you might find yourself down to lentils of dubious provence.

Cheaters suck. I totally understand the urge to unmask them all and demand justice. And yet, we still need people to run government, we still need tortured artists to make music, and we probably still need patent attorneys, although if you want to expunge a group, let’s start with them.

You don’t have to be the world’s cheater police. You just have to police your own turf — don’t date them and don’t marry them. If you want to boycott certain people on principle that is absolutely your right. But don’t feel guilty if you still enjoy the music of Johnny Cash, or the writings of Thomas Jefferson, or Aretha Franklin’s voice and her unpaid taxes. It’s an imperfect world. You can acknowledge these people’s contributions with eye’s wide open about their faults. It’s your judgment call if those faults eclipse their accomplishments.


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  • Recently, a friend told me that I will probably never trust anyone ever again (I’m 7 months since the split – emotional affair – mid-divorce.) And while I had the honesty rug yanked out from under me – and still spinning from the fall – I refuse to believe this sentiment to be true. Why? Because I know me. I can be trusted. I would never, ever, ever cheat on a partner. Ever. And what about all of you? I trust you too.

    Sure, there are massive amounts of cheaters living among us. We all know at least one (obviously.) It can be discouraging, I get that. But Ducks, they’re not the only ones who hold power in numbers.

    • Gia, I too could never cheat on anyone ever because I am just a very trustworthy person, I do not have an agenda of any kind. I was married for 37 years to the one and only love I have ever known. He cheated emotionally many times during our marriage and the fool that I am, put up with it. Just after we parted he screwed a 20 year prostitute in Asia which seems to be his thing now. Our 2 adult children have sided with their sire and have blocked me from their lives even thought they have all the facts. They know everything that their sire has done to us and still I am locked out. So cheaters can and do win many battles it seems. I am 62 years old now and I know I do not trust a soul after devoting so many years to a person I now consider a “rat”. He was an only child who was adopted by a very toxic mother and a closet gay father. He is a narcissist and I never knew it until I got onto this site. Everyone loves him. They think he is just the nicest most decent person. I am the reject.

      • Maree, screw them all! You have yourself, that’s all you need. Enjoy your life and you will be surprised how great it is being single and I don’t care how old you are. You can cook if you want to, watch any program on TV, sleep whenever you want, in the middle of your bed, go and come as you please and you no longer have to please some ungrateful piece of shit and clean after him. Life has so much to offer when you can enjoy your own company and if they think he is the nicest guy in the world, well fuck them too! They will learn eventually on their own. Big hugs!!

      • Maree – consider this the biggest, warmest virtual hug you’ve ever received. So sorry this has happened to you.

      • Maree–Huge hugs. Children can be really unfair.

        I don’t have children, but I have seen how adult children deal with divorce. More than with little kids, adult children tend to put blame on someone. It may be that while they were growing up, they knew stuff was wrong with their father, but they may have resented you for putting up with it. So unfair that when you finally put your foot down, they resent that, too!

        Anyway, even adult children come around. They have a lot of sorting out to do, and their father doubtless has done a mindfuck on them, too. Still, that their father seems to like young Asian prostitutes is eventually going to register high on their Creep Scale. The best thing to do is to leave the door open, but don’t run through it. Send them cards, the usual gifts. Phone calls are neutral. No talking about dad during lunch, save for nodding when they mention his name.

        This is a huge shit sandwich. Basically, you’re creating a safe space for them where they don’t have to defend their father, and you’re not making demands on them. Unlike their father, you’re not asking them to do the pick-me dance. You will likely need a lot of therapy and good support from people who are not your children.

        Eventually, they’ll get the dysfunction that is their father. It’s not going to be soon, but the end result is that he may have won this particular battle, but not the war.

      • Maree this is a heartbreaking story. I too feel alienated from my child now, and there is nothing more painful for a mother. You really wonder, how could they? But often narcs have narc kids & they like all the shiny glittery stuff surrounding the narc parent. Meanwhile, we are falling apart, and that is not “fun” for them.
        The Asian 20 year old? I think this is what Bill Clinton (speaking of him) really wanted when he said he wanted a “world economy” was to introduce the “wild world of exotic pussy” to American men. Many women the world over are in bad situations and will do anything to get out of them. Believe it or not, it is a world rumor that American men cheat less so are in demand!! Just as we are getting older & need to accept that, enter the young and easy from all over the world!
        I hope to trust again, but think it takes some time. Be patient with yourself, you have been through hell. I hope something great is around the corner for you!

    • Gia,

      I would have to agree with your friend. Yes I am also loyal, faithful and can be trusted but I will never, ever trust anyone ever again. But that’s just me, its a self protection thing. I finally realized I can only trust myself and I am my own best friend.

    • I’m with Gia. Yes, we were horribly sandbagged and yes our eyes were opened. But like Gia, I choose to trust (with some verifying), I choose to jump (rather than stay stuck forever in the screwed-up world my ex left me in). Is it scary? Yes, scary as hell, especially after what we know. But take the leap chumps, you’re worth it. I know I never cheated in my 25 years of marriage and never was tempted to do so, even when my ex was becoming more and more pathological. I know many many others who are the same, male and female. And I too look at all of us in Chump Nation, such good people who were so profoundly invested in and true to our marriages and families. And that gives me hope, and gives me the strength to go on.

  • Ducks – I totally share your frustration. It’s like we’re pressured to give a pass to these “geniuses” even though in OUR lives, character and integrity count. Talk about cognitive dissonance! Haven’t we personally had enough of that? PTSD go away, come again, never. But when we speak out about it, we are labeled “too judgmental,” or “casting stones” even though my argument is not that the cheater should not get on with their life, but that we should not place them in a position of reverence, trust, or as a role model. But here again, supposedly their genius or notoriety, trumps all. Forgive the flawed man/woman. All we can do is live by example and hope our seemingly dwindling numbers will still cast a bright enough light to impact the next generation. Very tall task in our social media crazed world.

  • I’m with you on this CL. All in all, some deeply talented people have deep flaws.

    I don’t pay attention to the personal lives of famous people, I don’t even know most of their names unless I’ve seen a lot of their movies or listened to a lot of their music. For example, until I read this letter I had no idea Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston had a thing, I’m not interested in what Pitt did either. When I saw the movie Burlesque, I said the lead singer is wonderful, who is that? My BFF looked at me in amazement and said, don’t you know that’s Christina Aguilera? Nope, I had no idea because while I’d heard her music, I’d never seen a pic. To me these people are fiction, they entertain me and I appreciate their talent but I just don’t care what they do IRL because that life does not in any way intersect with my own.

    Politicians are a bit different, these people hold real power to change the world. If a person will cheat on their spouse, they will cheat us, so I have misgivings about their use of that power. OTH, you note Bill Clinton and I don’t think I am alone in believing he was a pretty damn good president and he continues to do good work through charities. Then there are the truly messed up ones that are not really talented or driven to good works, Weiner comes to mind…

    • Hit submit to quick. I don’t consider famous people role models, I only care about their character if they can impact my life/our lives. For the most part the only impact the singers, writers and movie stars have on us is the enjoyment, or lack thereof, that they give through their talent. I do see the social impact they have, especially with kids, but I hope it’s not a lasting one.

      • I agree with you about those who occupy positions of political power. I don’t believe one can improve upon Harry Truman’s statement that he would never knowingly hire a person that had cheated on their wife.

        When Truman was asked why, he said, ‘You know, if a man will lie to his wife, he’ll lie to me. And if he’ll break his oath of marriage, he’ll break his oath of office.’ It’s hard to argue with President Truman’s logic. Can you trust a man who lies to his wife or breaks his marital oath? I don’t think so.

        Public officers take an oath to uphold the Constitution, to uphold the law of the land. Well, when you get married, you take an oath to be faithful in sickness and in health, in poverty and wealth, till death do us part; in adultery, you’ve broken that oath.

        Hell yes, I hold “politicians” to a higher standard. They are seeking positions of power over the livelihoods and oft time the very lives of the public.

        Bill Clinton was a serial cheater for virtually his entire political life and may still be one for all I know. Regardless of how “great” a President anyone believes he was …there were plenty of others who could have done the job equally well and who were not serial cheaters.

        We shouldn’t make excuses for or whitewash a cheating husband nor should we do it for those who make decisions that profoundly affect the lives of millions. We who judge politicians with “situational ethics” are just as guilty of moral “cake eating” as those whom we presume to judge in our personal lives.

        • There are good politicians out there just as there are good people, however I would estimate that there exists a higher level of narcissism in politics relative to the general population…I would say some are driven to politics in an earnest belief that they want to make the world a better place, but to put yourself out there and engage in electoral politics you have to, on some level, crave external validation and winning a popularity contest via voting mechanisms is one hell of an ego stroke…Furthermore, nothing makes people sparkle like power, as Kissenger said “power is the greatest aphrodisiac”…But keep this in mind, narcissism in politics does have its restrictions as elected politicos still need votes so they have to be somewhat responsive to constituents…If you are a complete narcissist in politics you will eventually get called out, just ask Tom Delay, Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, Elliot Spitzer, Anthony Weiner etc.

          • The problem lies in not having enough information. We don’t know if any of these people had open marriages but were unable to admit that because they would lose votes. Obviously Spitzer was using prostitutes while prosecuting the same so that is truly awful. Others one has to wonder what agreements they might have.

            • I didn’t like Clinton and I thought he tended to betray his allies and dump friends a lot. I think it went with the cheating.

              I don’t buy the argument that politicians were in open marriages, I think that’s probably wishful thinking by supporters.

              I would never vote for someone who went to a prostitute, no matter what. I think it shows a level of not caring about women and using them for your pleasure that is just too much. People in office need to care about women.

              I wouldn’t vote for a cheater, the big problem is finding a politician who is honest!

        • Bill Clinton may be brilliant, but it does not change how he lowered the bar with his behavior (the age of the woman, the fact she was an intern and all the lies did not help either) & it has gone steadily downhill since! I remember when Ronald Reagan was thinking about running for President in the 80’s and it was thought perhaps he was unfit because he was in a second marriage. A failed marriage was considered too much baggage for a potential President!!

        • Can’t argue with your logic, NotYou. A brilliant comment from Truman.

          Today, it seems as if there will always be fresh meat out there to be sucked in by narkles. On most days, it seems a pipedream to hope that the number of awake people will grow until there’s nobody left to fool. I continue to hope that there will always be alternatives than to have to accept Narcisssists in positions of leadership of any kind, but wonder about the realistic nature of that hope since so many people who make it to the top of their game today are egocentric, virulently ambitious/competitive, and have little empathy.

          I know many who were continually betrayed and are in recovery who say that friendship/romance is highly overrated, and have since turned to pets for companionship. Perhaps for some people it may be more satisfying (short or long-term) to turn to a passion or hobby and get lost in it without having to involve other people.

        • Very well said! i totally agree and that is a big step for me.Thanks!

        • notyou i agree!!!!after seeing the damage there is no excuse!

  • I married a nice but somewhat socially awkward man. He excelled in his field but never seemed to achieve success. Switched from job to job. We had two children before things changed for him. Once he was financially successful and professionally recognized everything changed. He became intolerant of any views other than his own and developed an attitude of self entitlement. He immediately cut me off from all physical contact. No sex, no affection, no nothing. Clearly he believed he could and should do better. I focused on my boys and convinced myself that the stress from work had made him impotent. That wasn’t the case. I was tipped off by an unknown someone via phone that my husband was frequenting very high priced escorts. Instead of kicking him out I was excited that we could use this opportunity to address our problems with a therapist. The counseling turned out to be a disappointment. While I am willing to accept some blame for the problems in our relationship I was being asked to accept responsibility for everything. Reasons ranged from too much attention being given to my kids to the dislike of my sarcastic humor. I apparently am so repulsive that nobody would want to touch me or love me. Out of fear I still stayed. Now I have found out he is visiting a dominatrix. He confessed, destroyed my proof, and now denies it all. I want him out of my house and out of my life. I can’t do this anymore. He will not leave. He says I can if I’d like. I have one child still at home and one in college, two dogs and a low paying job. I only reentered the workforce when I found out about the cheating. I am 50, attractive and intelligent but even though the job has potential I am not yet self supporting. I am asked out quite a bit but have never acted on the invitations. Should I? Id just love to be kissed. How did I get to this point and what do I do now…paralyzed…

    • So blue,

      My heart goes out to you. I can’t imagine many things more painful than to feel as if you’re worthless because you believe what a disordered piece of shit says and how he treats you. But that is it….it’s HIS narrative, to make him feel better about what he knows is the truth. It is NOT the truth, and it doesn’t have to be yours.

      My advice would be to talk to an attorney, if you haven’t already, and get yourself gone, with a temporary support order for your child and yourself.

      I knew my cheater (a BF, not a husband) was cheating for several months before I had solid proof. I stayed out of guilt that he had a terminally ill brother, but near the end, I was planning to leave whether I found proof or not; our relationship was just lacking anything that could make me want to stay. I’d begun taking care of me, and pursuing hobbies when I met someone kayaking (my favorite hobby!). A couple weeks after we met, he asked me out to see a concert. I told him honestly that I was in a relationship, that I didn’t think it was going to work, but in the meantime I had to honor that. He respected my position and backed off.

      About a month after I had proof that I was being cheated on and left, I contacted my kayaking friend and asked if he was still interested in catching a live music show sometime. We soon began dating and couldn’t be happier. However, he’s told me that had I said I was in a relationship (crappy or otherwise) and did want to date him, he’d have turned me down.

      Ducks in a row, and in order. Separate first, give yourself some time to adjust, then date. It’s what makes us better than our cheaters. Definitely worth doing things the right way. Also, expect your ex to be furious that someone else desires the woman he is so fond of treating like dirt. It seriously messes with their narrative.

  • Hi Ducks
    I also have thought the same thoughts as you. I have to admit that I am so angry at anyone who is dishonest. We have been lied to and betrayed so deeply that you get into a state of such an awareness into everything that is false. I too hate hearing of all the cheaters out there. I have been disappointed to hear of my favourite stars beings idiots. Be proud that we are not like them. Our integrity is so much higher than theirs. CL is right, we can’t let all those people control our happiness in life. The one to concentrate on is you. As you go through this madness you’ll be able to pick up on many more signs of a cheater and that will be lessons learned. Try putting the bar higher as far who you want in your life as you deserve the best. Make sure the relationships are open and honest and the first sign its not, run like hell. Not letting people dishonour you is apart of meh. Trust your gut feelings and don’t worry about all the cheaters out there. They may be good professionals but as far as integrity as a person , its gone and people know it. They have their journey and purpose in life (although we don’t see that purpose). One day the Karma bus will hit them. Keep your self respect and honour, show how great you really are. Stay strong!

  • I have thought about this problem too. Some of my best childhood memories involve the music of Johnny Cash, and it belongs to me now. My sisters and I choreographed dances to every song on the Live at Folsom Prison album, even Cocaine Blues!. Johnny’s infidelity is well documented, even glorified, but what about all the other artists on my play list? I can’t launch investigations into the private lives of each one before I allow myself to enjoy their music. Of course, there are some public figures whose narcissism overshadows their alleged contributions to art and society (Brad and Angie come to mind. Ick!), and I thoroughly enjoy condemning them!

    At this point, I save my “boycott” for the friendship of people who actually exist in my life, in my social circle. I will not be friends with known cheaters. I will not knowingly have a social relationship with the cruel and disordered.

  • Ducks, I agree with you, lots of cheaters are out there in our daily lives. To ward off despair, I’ve come up with a game plan. What I’ve found is that these cheaters may have obvious talents–they’re great singers, designers, lawyers, politicians–but at their core, they’re lethal. Whether it’s because they’re certifiable sociopaths or they’re healthy-minded folks who got WAY off track–these people at their cores are all toxic. So in your everyday life when you come in contact with them, you can discuss politics, seek legal advice, whatever you need, but you must always define yourself against them. Create and maintain proper boundaries. Step outside your interactions and observe them. It can be fascinating. Often these cheaters help you better understand your own cheater in a safer, less threatening way. Treat them like a psychological, social, emotional, and spiritual experiment. And as you get stronger and more skilled at your exchanges with them, never ever -ck with them. Ever. It will be tempting given your own chump baggage and revenge motifs. That’s not your goal. Your goal is to empower yourself, get to know thy enemy–get to know them very well–and in the process gain life tools to protect yourself, your friends, and loved ones. I agree, they’re everywhere. But so are folks like us. And we’re growing in numbers too–but more importantly–we’re growing in strength. ((hugs))

    • Word. Thanks Seren3838, and CL, needed to hear that, as I am jobhunting near LA, the epicenter of narcissism…..

      Bastards get ahead, unfortunately, that is life. I am not religious, so no god to answer to, just my human self. I think being chumped sets our narkle meters on a hair trigger, and that we can adjust, in time.

      And it does give you strength, but that strength is tolerance, and knowing what our boundaries are. Easy to say, difficult to do, when one has been betrayed by a wing nut.

      Love to all in Chump Nation


      • Mehphista,

        Loved your: “Meh-x.” Great double-entrende.

        I’ve been reading your comments for some time now, and just in case you don’t know it already, Mehphista, let me tell you something: You rock. Big time.

        Keep up the great work.

        I’m learning a lot from you and I have no doubt others are in the Chump Nation.

        Meh-x right back atcha! Elizabeth

    • Seren3838- I hope you are right about growing in numbers and strength. We definitely need THE POWER. As they say, he who has the power and money, controls the narrative. The pendulum needs to swing back into a more reasonable balance valuing character and integrity, and not the false veneer that many politicians or other “reformed” cheats, tout. So often the more notorious cheats, because they do have the power, whitewash and change their narrative. “Oh, he’s such a charming rogue (cheat, rapist, murderer?) who does good works…,” the Kennedys and Clinton come to mind, or any number of people on the right. Ted Kennedy, when he realized he had brain cancer, made a pathetic plea to an archbishop or a pope (can’t remember whom he addressed in his letter) for some special dispensation, citing his good deeds, presumably his way of addressing some issues of conscience. Could this have been the behavior of a tormented, repenting narc or just another narc working on image control, feeling entitled to pave his way to heaven in his last days? Guess we will never know. All we can do is live our lives to the fullest and reject false narratives as we learned to identify and reject our cheater’s.

      • SeeTheLight,

        My outlook & approach to these cheaters is this: Optimism.

        Why? Because I can’t think of one person who admires either Ted Kennedy or Bill Clinton for their character. Do folks admire their intelligence? Sure. Their legalese? Absolutely. Their wealth? Yes. Power? Yes. Ok, the list is endless. And, heck, even some admire their narcissism, lack of shame, how they play the system to their advantage, beg their Priest for forgiveness, give Hillary a great big kiss.

        But are we buying it? You think the general public and their cohorts really admire these idiots? Give me a break. They ain’t controlling any narrative but their own.

        Any human being if they’re worth their weight in gold–whether they’re powerful or just getting by–knows that life is a character test. And these -cktards are failing miserably.

        So I’m optimistic.

  • I’m definitely not at “meh”.
    It’s about getting my generalized people picker tuned up.
    Work at minimizing any contact with the character disordered.

  • Hi Ducks,

    I was chumped a long time girlfriend before I got married to this cheater. Back then, I had the same kind of reaction you’re having. I was distraught. It was in my face all the time. Married women sometimes would openly hit on me unbeknownst to their poor husband standing a few feet away at a party or some other scenario. I was polite, but disgusted. And, of course, I became even more acutely aware of the infidelity in the media.

    The worst moment I had with this unfortunate new awareness was while I was reading one of my favorite authors at the time. I enjoyed reading Scott Peck’s “The Road Less Traveled” nearly 20 years ago. I was making major changes in my life and his book was helping me with new ideas and insights. I loved it. I snapped up his other books and read them, too. He’s a psychiatrist who blends psychology with spirituality/religion to help people grow as adults. It was big in ’79 when he wrote it.

    My parents knew I loved his stuff, so for Christmas one year gave me his latest book as a gift. I was thrilled and went home and began to read it immediately. Half way through the book he casually mentioned how he had been cheating on his wife for years with his patients! The patients whose stories he used as examples and inspiration to write about spirituality (a cornerstone being delayed gratification). I was so upset I put the book down and never finished it. He may have shown remorse somewhere else in the book I just don’t know it. It really made me question everything he wrote about. What a dick! I just couldn’t believe it.

    Fifteen years, later I chose to read “The Road Less Traveled” again. And, a few other books by him. I decided that the message may transcend the messenger. I agree with much of what he wrote. I just know that he doesn’t actually do what he says his readers ought to do.

    But, that’s the trouble with putting people on pedestals, they will fail us. So now, I just don’t do that anymore. I don’t call it jaded. I call it reasonable and discerning.

    I have no idea what another person is thinking, even if they tell me. All I can do is be responsible for me.

    Someone wrote earlier in the comments here that all I can do is trust myself. And be the person I want to be with. If I emanate those qualities, I will attract someone who is trustworthy, too. Or not. I’m working on it.

    • Thirstyfish,
      I had the exact SAME experience with Scott Peck. Loved!! his books, read them voraciously until I got to his autobiography and found out he was a fuck just like all the rest of the hypocrites out there. That he screwed around oh his wife with his patients!!! I was so disgusted with him and from then on out he was a big pig in my book and I never read another thing by him. Eeewwww.

      • Gio,
        I know. I was bummed. He was really resonating with me. And then that. I walked around for a couple of days complaining to my friends about it. I still have a hard time reading any of his stuff. Besides being a cheating jackwagon on his wife; he’s ethically bankrupt because he’s preying on his patients!!! Can you imagine?

        I felt as if he took the easy way out by admitting it in a book, too. He never addressed (as far as I know) the hypocrisy or his abysmal ethics. His poor wife. He unloads in a book for financial gain and what does she get? I wonder if he even consulted with her before he decided to publish it.

        Oh well…maybe I make too much of it.

        • Thirstyfish,
          I’ve been reading Wayne Dyer’s ‘Wishes Full Filled’ book and getting so much out of it. More than I ever got out of Scott Peck’s writings. And from what I know, and that’s not much, I haven’t heard that he cheated on his wife.

          Yes, Scott Peck. The worst! For preying on his patients. You’d think that there was some kind of code of ethics against that. Right after I read Mr. Peck’s autobiography I read one on Bill W. from AA and found out he did the same thing with new female AA members and his poor wife, Lois, was long suffering with his cheating. I remembered thinking, ‘Are they all alike?’ It was so disheartening. I thought these men were out doing good deeds in the world and who knows, maybe they were really sexual predators all along like the Catholic priests. The ‘good works’ they were doing was just a facade so they could reach more vulnerable victims.

          • Yes, I know Bill was a cheater too. I agree, Lois was long suffering. But, I can tell you that I know Bill reached many people with great success. The message is different than the messenger. I know, it’s messed up.

            I like Wayne Dyer and I haven’t read his stuff in a long time. I’ll check it out. As far as Peck goes, there is a code of ethics and he could’ve got his license revoked for that. He was an MD. That’s why he is even more cowardly because he admitted it with little to lose by that time. His license meant little since he was old and rich.

            The priests are whole different ball of wax!

            • Wayne Dyer’s second wife, Marceline, chested on him after over 20 years of marriage.

            • The problem I have with Bill, is the insidious way that his cheating influenced the program. In one arena you hear, “one must grasp and develop a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty”, and yet he practically writes the narcissists credo:

              “Perhaps we are mixed up with women in a fashion we wouldn’t care to have advertised. We doubt if, in this respect, alcoholics are fundamentally much worse than other people. But drinking does complicate sex relations in the home. After a few years with an alcoholic, a wife gets worn out, resentful, and uncommunicative. How could she be anything else? The husband begins to feel lonely, sorry for himself. He commences to look around in night clubs, or their equivalent, for something more than liquor. Perhaps he is having a secret and exciting affair with “the girl who understands.” In fairness we must say that she may understand, but what are we going to do about a thing like that? A man so involved often feels very remorseful at times, especially if he is married to a loyal and courageous girl who has literally gone through hell for him. Whatever the situation, we usually have to do something about it. If we are sure our wife does not know, should we tell her? Not always, we think…
              Our design for living is not a one-way street. It is as good for the wife as for the husband. If we can forget, so can she. It is better, however, that one does not needlessly name a person upon whom she can vent jealousy.
              A.A. Big Book, William G. Wilson, pages 80-82.

              Evidently A. Orange thinks he was a flaming narcissist…

              I almost puked when I found out that my husband’s asshat sponsor told him it would have been better for me if he hadn’t confessed.

              • lindadanette,

                Yes. Most folks in AA who have been around a while know that Bill was a pig. And, he dropped acid, too. He was a fool mostly. I don’t know why he is revered in an “anonymous program.” He is lucky to have been given the unmerited gift of grace. Seems like he squandered it in some ways.

                I suppose I could say that it’s the vernacular of the times and nobody reads the chapters “To Wives” or “The Family Afterward,” but I won’t.

                And, there is even the escape hatch of “well this about alcohol” our “primary purpose.” So we can’t be bothered with sex problems. That I can buy a little more since I think that if someone does practice that way of life, their road narrows considerably while gaining a sober life. At some point, they will suffer either the pain of hurting their spouse or they will suffer the pain of having no spouse at all for that very reason. IF they are even giving that spiritual way of life a half assed attempt.

                How do I know this? I worked at a tx facility before my current gig. I had to take the tribe to AA meetings. Interesting stuff.

                Also, AA is not the hotbed of mental health. It’s filled with sick people. Some are trying to get well. Others struggle. Some are predators. Some are organically mentally ill. It’s generally a microcosm of society.

              • Oh, and most people in AA who have common sense and decent recovery will NOT give relationship advice to their sponsees or other members. Why? Because they know how badly they suck at it. It would be pious and hypocritical of them. Your husband’s sponsor is an asshat.

        • Yes. But, I think by the time he revealed his duplicity he was done practicing and rich from his NY Times bestsellers etc..,. Chickenshit right?

          I mean the more I think and write about it the more I think how awful it was for him to take advantage of those women. It’s twisted.

    • “But, that’s the trouble with putting people on pedestals, they will fail us. So now, I just don’t do that anymore. I don’t call it jaded. I call it reasonable and discerning.”

      Well said. I think that I can still have an optimistic, trusting view of life and other people in it, but I need to be less naive and more realistic. I think that we also need to “honor our guts.” If something feels off, if something looks like a red flag, we don’t tell ourselves that we should take the good with the bad, it’s probably not what we think, blah blah blah. I know that’s what made me into the chump that I am today: spackle.

      My mother especially tried so hard to get me to open my eyes to what my then-boyfriend-now-XWH was without alienating me, and I just wouldn’t see it. I’d like to think that was because I was 19 at the time and a huge romantic, so if I ever meet someone again, the almost-40-year-old me will be aware of the signs and will listen to her gut.

  • Ducks, your concerns are justified. CL makes her case for picking and choosing which good works/products by insufferable narcissists you can tolerate and which you will reject/boycott. I am enjoying 10+ years of limited-to-no-contact with an N-sibling, N-xpartners, N-bosses, an N-coworker and N-frenemies (YES, all those!), and still to this day, my guard must be up. I feel I am no longer the joyful, generous and dynamic Telo that I once was, and often am my own mother bear protecting cub Telo from the machinations of the self-absorbed, manipulative and ruthlessly ambitious climbers out there. But today, I know how much value there is in drama-free peace and contentment with a non-disordered spouse. To keep that forcefield of protection around me, I make daily choices. Sometimes, that includes not going to see a performer whose behaviors sicken me; sometimes that includes not attending a party hosted by a queen of one-upmanship. The world became brighter when I dropped out of the workforce to caretake my mother. No more narcissistic performers to represent by way of profession, no more “taker” friends who were not about to offer a helping hand but instead absented themselves from my life to my benefit, the list goes on. Like you, Ducks, I would prefer not to deal with/support narcissists on any level, if I have that luxury. It would be like rewarding bad behavior /or putting yourself in the path of destruction. My advice is to stay away from people who trigger your trauma and concentrate on your healing. Find out who you are as a non-partnered person. As you recover, you can gradually open your oyster shell and still snap it shut whenever you want to.

    • Wow Telo that is so well stated.
      After divorcing an N, I just snapped my oyster shell closed.
      Now having experienced trauma from a cheater, think that staying very guarded is the way to be. Really like your statement: “you can gradually open your oyster shell and still snap it shut whenever you want to”.

      We chumps have to be so careful about whom we let into our lives.

    • Oh I like that stay away from those who “trigger your trauma.” I recently went to work for a Narc who “triggered my trauma” and I got out of there fast!! I was proud of myself for seeing it quickly and not trying to make it work. Another milestone is really not caring if people like me or not. I always preferred people liked me, now I care what very few think.
      I recommend pets for those who can have them….I have 6 dogs & stairs up to my bed. They are so loving! I’m not going to say I recommend 6, but they help with moments of pure bliss & entertainment. They are chumps too. When is the last time a human went crazy because you came home from work? Or twirled around in circles for mixed canned & dry food like you slaved all day over it?

      • ***** (five stars) for your comments, Regina!

        You noticed the N red flags and acted on them in your own best interest. You no longer care if people like you or not. And you embrace dogs — unconditional love personified! You are one well woman!

  • This is a really timely thread, with all of the Woody Allen stuff in the news and the discussion that has happened because of it. Love Chump Lady’s advice, we all draw our own lines.
    I haven’t seen a Woody Allen movie since “secret sexual affair with your girlfriend’s daughter/sister of your adopted children news broke ” 20 some years ago. I didn’t like them anyway, uncomfortable sexual situations ( 40 something year old men having an affair with a 17 year old high school senior or “jokes” about childhood molestation). Really? Yep, haven’t missed them at all.
    Liz Claiborne? I don’t own any of her clothes, but I’d keep them if I did. She’s a cheater, but she’s one with another consenting adult, who also happened to be a cheater. There weren’t any children or non consensual adults involved. They deserved each other.
    Johnny Cash? Same thing. Doesn’t tarnish my enjoyment of his music.
    Bill Clinton? This is where it gets sticky and icky, and this may be my Liz Claiborne equivalent for Liningupducks. This man isn’t just your run of the mill, only consenting adults cheater. He’s got “issues”, and I say that as a lifelong Democrat who supported his policies. We know he lied under oath, we know he had sexual contact with a really young woman who worked in a position inferior to him, we know he settled a sexual harrassment suit for 1 million dollars and no one is allowed to talk about the details, we know that he has trashed the lives and reputations of women who have come forward to say that he had sex with them, or to say that he promised them career advancement if they provided sexual favors. Remember the words trailer trash, bimbo, etc? Bill Clinton attacked their honor and credibility for telling their truth. He’s a sexual predator, which makes him very different than a Liz Caliborne or a Johnny Cash. Does that negate the good he does with his politics and legislation? I don’t think so? I’m not changing my political views because of him, I’ll continue to support my views. But I’m not going to support any awards or clap when he gets them. And if he were running for office again, I’d sit that one out. Ick.

  • As the first wife of Art Ortenberg who left me for Liz Claiborne and just used my maiden name in his obit without my permission i am qualified to speak. When i returned from NY to Chicago on that train ride the pediatrician who was an old friend said “what did he do to you? i wouldn’ t have recognized you. “i was brilliant, gorgeous, gifted in music, and while Art took care of the children financially,i was not entitled to a penny. Art knew before we married that i wanted to study music. Liz opposed parenthood. While i am responsible for “choosing” Art, he did everything he could to ruin my reputation and the last few years would have destroyed a weaker person. Bill Clinton is a devoted father, a Philanthropist, and totally commited to Hillary. Art was
    an absent father and my daughter is grieving right now for the father who never visited . Another factor is the scorn New Yorkers have for Chicago, the Middle West, and me. Liz wanted to uplift all those dowdy middle americans. Im not even sure she was a claiborne.
    so there is more to it than adultery. i had many more challenges to overcome than was necessary. the estate is being settled now and i am very frugal in retirement but if i sleep under a tree at 86 that estate owes me nothing.i just bought a $6.00 tunic. and the number of single women at the poverty level is about 75%. We have a job to do. Yesterday i played 2 pages of a liszt transcription on the piano. the 5 single years way back when were without a piano. my father bought the liz IPO which was never offered to me. this was not only infidelity but vicious attempts at destruction. What is necessary is a reviewof female poverty and divorce laws. And the parting cheap shot .look at Arts obit. “Muriel Kotchever: is a 17 year old girl entering college. My son tried to prevent the use of my name. However Liz is pretty much forgotten now. But 1000 of those mexican divorces? support the Shriver Poverty Center in Chicago. lets get to work!!!!!!!!!Muriel

    • Muriel, really happy to see your post! This Chump is paying attention to your wise advice – thank you!

    • Bill Clinton was a promiscuous sexual deviant- he is a disgusting man.

      It beggars belief that the American public continued to support him -that would not have happened in my country England.

      His political career would have been over and he would have been forced to leave office.

    • I’m in Chicago, too. It does not help that the law favors no one. It doesn’t matter the length if marriage. It doesn’t matter you gave up your career during your most income earning years to promote the spouse’s career. It doesn’t matter that the cheating party emotionally abused the other.

      In fact, in Lake County, there is an magic formula used to calculate support….based on the fact that the long term unemployed spouse can go back to work ASAP and get a $40K job. From that basis they calculate the support amount.

      The law abuses the non-cheating spouse by No Fault and then by assuming the long term unemployed spouse can immediately find employment at a base of at least $40K. This is depressing. It’ s no wonder 75%of single women are living at poverty level.

  • This week someone at work turned out to be a thief, leading a double life: he’d been stealing for years. My coworkers couldn’t believe it, such a charming and pleasant man (!). If he could have done this, any of us could be a lying thief, how could they ever trust again? I’m sorry to say, I was surprised – I did like him, my radar is just as bad as before – but not really. Not as much as I would have been a few years ago.

    I don’t want to be jaded, mistrusting. So I make a conscious choice to go on trusting people, coworkers, friends and one day hopefully a new partner in life. Otherwise how could I be a social and happy person? But… at my deepest core, something has changed. I know now the depth of deceit, even thought I know there are more people like me who will not cheat or steal, even if the opportunity arises (I know of many people that would cheat given half the chance, but never did or dared).

    Today I saw a Facebook mention of a therapist that focuses on people trying to start a new life with their affair partner, because of the many hurdles they have to take. My first reaction was to trigger, ugh, the bigger the hurdles the better. Let them eat mud at every single one of them. But then I thought: when there are children involved it might be a good thing and it’s a free market. I bet there are therapists focusing on any other nasty behaviours, right? It doesn’t have anything to do with me and I better steer clear of any romance that would involve such a therapist! But that is a similar trigger, I am very allergic to cheating now (just as I saw newborns everywhere when I was pregnant). It will never get out of my system, I guess I’m jaded in a way. But it cannot change me, because it’s not about me!

    PS: the owner did want to give the guy a second chance, since they had only found one incident when they discovered it. I was against, since he covered up the incident expertly. He was fired. And in the past days we found more and more evidence. A second chance would only have given him the opportunity to be smarter in hiding evidence. It sounds so familiar! I see now I have turned in a no second-chance woman – when people show me who they really are, I believe them now! (not talking about an honest mistake, but behavior that shows lack of integrity).

    • I think it’s unethical to have a practice just for helping cheaters. It’s like advertising cigarettes or lobbying fir sweatshop owners. I can see why you don’t want to get obsessed with it though.

  • “Their last claim to fame was their 1983 SAT scores.”

    HA!! My cheater graduated HS in 1983 and, as goalie, he gave up the “game-winning goal” in his HS hockey championship. It was half-brag (“we were in the championship!”) and half poor sausage (“but I gave up the goal”)….It was worth divorcing him not to have to hear that freaking story AGAIN!!!

  • Thirstyfish, you said something I often feel too, although at aged 53 and 20 years out of the dating scene, I’m never hit on any more: “I was polite but disgusted.”

    While I’d like to think I practice acceptance of others whether I agree or not, I draw the line at cheating, whether it is on taxes, on the waitress’s tip, on a test, or on a partner. I can’t help it; I immediately think less of that person, and cannot recover from the reality that they feel justified to cheat. No one is perfect, but to deliberately cheat is a character flaw, and tells me the person is not someone I want to spend any time with anymore. I’ve broken away from a lot of people because of that principle, including my scumbag X, who like many of the chump ex’s, turned it around to make it all my fault.

    In the end, dishonesty is — and will always be — a deal breaker for me. I admit it freely: I think those who cheat are beneath me.

    • Yeah, I have no patience with lying any longer, I catch you in a small lie, one that is unnecessary (not a polite one) or that gives you some advantage? I won’t trust another word out of your mouth. I’m still dealing with a contractor who is not trustworthy and he’s in for a surprise when it comes to his last payment. I have no mercy for liars

      • Dat, I completely agree with you, same here..and I keep in mind now, if they lie to you, they will steal from you and boy in my case it fits..

        • Yes! After doing a personal assessment of my “picker”, I’ve realized that I was lied to in ALL of my significant relationships very early in the relationship. What did I do? I FORGAVE them. ALL of them.

          I’m not even close to dating, but my new motto has become, “FIRST lie, good-BYE!”
          Not even gonna put up with THAT sh*t again…

      • Like they say, lies are like cockroaches, for every one you see, there are 50 you don’t!~!

    • I’m 55 and I get hit on a lot. By married men and men with SO’s. Boy do I have fun putting them in their place. I’ve been single 6 years and I’m not kidding, it has happened so many times I’d actually have to sit down and count how many times. I sure wish I could find a decent single man who would ‘hit’ on me. Ha!
      I posted this on my Facebook page the other day:

      ‘I’ve been single for awhile and I have to say, it’s going very well.
      Like…It’s working out.
      I think I’m the one.’

      • ROFLMAO!

        That’s WONDERFUL, Gio! I hope you and you will be very happy together for many years, filled with fun, laughter and love!


  • I get that feeling often. All of society seems to celebrate the dumbest of the dumb, not just the cheaters. It seems to me to be an insurmountable problem at times. But, baby steps: my kids see it, and are disgusted by it too. So, maybe I’m helping to create a better society for the future? I’s like to think so, anyway.
    I found a site online that helped me to “see” dishonesty. I would like to share it here. I think back on the conversations I had with my slippery ex who would never give me a straight answer. The site is : It shows how to listen and the clues to listen for to spot a liar. I hope I helped someone in SOME way!

  • I can’t even consider watching a Woody Allen film – a man who married his step-daughter? Seriously WRONG and NO EXCUSES! I don’t want to take a walk in Mr Allen’s head ever again! Talk of narcissistic self-entitlement! Same with Michael Jackson and his insistence that he didn’t have to follow societies mores and could have sleepovers with little boys – cos he was ‘special’. Ugh! I admire Brad Pitt’s acting abilities but him cheating on Jennifer Aniston dropped him miles in my estimation – and that was before I found out I was being chumped. The thing about Clinton – he did the typical and banal trick of lying, gaslighting, denying and minimising – to the WHOLE WORLD – AND GOT AWAY WITH IT – AND STILL HE HAS PEOPLE WHO HOLD HIM IN GOOD ESTEEM!?!

    The problem is, while these cheating, disordered freaks have their misdemeanours overlooked, or as some small footnote in a biography, the other drongo narcs out there (yep those dickheads we married) regard that behaviour as normal and something they are entitled to do – I really do believe that for as long as (superficially, at least) the famous/influential psychopaths continue to gain plaudits in society – there really doesn’t appear to be any consequences for their despicable behaviour – and so, until society starts actively rejecting these fuckwits, there will always be chumps being hurt by arseholes who think ‘if Brad Pitt can do it – then so can I!’ (and Brad Pitt got Angelina Jolie as his AP – another fuckwit IMHO).

    At best I feel saddened to hear a ‘hero’ has behaved like an arsehole (Johnny Cash) – at worst, I could cheerfully line ’em all up against a wall ….. ! 😀

  • Thank you, Jayne, for raising the points you did. Until our society holds the disordered accountable, things will only get worse. Unfortunately, the bottom line guides too many people in charge. And when there is talent to be exploited, morals go out the window. Today I too am a very tough customer who will boycott people and products as much as I deem proper.

    I recall a hot topic that came up in the news and how there was an opportunity to hash out the issue on the air. I consulted with someone regarding a certain Prospect X who was an excellent spokesperson but who also happened to be a self-entitled prig. I couldn’t stand him and wondered if there was anyone else who could speak instead of having to “enable” such an obnoxious person by giving him a prime platform upon which to speak. My consultant said “Sometimes you have to weigh and consider the circumstances. Yes, he’s impossible to deal with, but he’s also a superb public speaker who knows his onions.” Well, after losing much sleep, I approached Prospect X in spite of my feelings for him, but with a caveat. When we discussed the matter and he agreed to an on-air interview, I told him he’d be speaking on a syndicated radio program (300 stations). Rather than thank me, he demanded that I call him the next morning to “remind him” about his phone interview! I gave him no answer and guess what? He obviously reminded himself because the interview went off the next day without a hitch and he was marvelous. No narcissist would give up the opportunity for prime public exposure like that. I guess one of my points is that I already had a plan of action in my mind regarding what I would and would not tolerate if I had to work with a narcissist.

    • Hi Telo 😀

      Full on respect for how you dealt with the ‘call me in the morning to remind me’ power play. Nicely done! – ‘turn up or don’t turn up – your call, you’re all grown up now and I want an interview not a job as your P.A.’ 😀 Ha!

      I seriously can’t watch Woody Allen films anymore. I remember hearing him try to justify what he’d done with; ‘we fell in love’. Bollocks! You are meant to love you children, you are not meant to ‘f*ck ’em!
      I still watch Brad Pitt films – he is a terrific actor after all (in the narcissistic frame though – no surprise there – guess we’ve all seen how incredibly good at acting our own individual narcs are)! I’ d rather watch paint drying than watch ‘Mr & Mrs Smith’ – the film Pitt and Jolie were working on when they ‘discovered twu wuv’.
      I couldn’t do the global mourning for the death of Michael Jackson, and I wasn’t prepared to scapegoat any MD’s / P.A.’s / casual bystanders – he was a grown man (I don’t CARE about his FOO issues – jeez, we’ve all got FOO issues, heaven help us) and it looked to me to be the consequence of his own personal preference to be anaesthetised to sleep! I can well imagine he was advised not to do it and the risks he was taking – just as I can imagine he was well advised to stop taking little boys to bed with him.

      Anyway, that’s my pennyworth 😀

      • Thanks, Jayne. Even when we have good enough boundaries, dealing with Ns is a full-on drag, as Chump Nation knows.

        I liked your take on some of the actors above. Dr. Drew Pinsky once said that narcissists are already narcissists when they gravitate to Hollywood rather than the idea that Hollywood makes people into narcissists. And the FOO issue is very interesting. Perhaps therapy before the age of 25 can mitigate things for the tormented, I don’t know. Joan Crawford had a horribly abusive childhood. While she was an aspiring dancer-starlet, she was reportedly a real people-pleaser no matter how ambitious. But without therapy, something she never got, somewhere along the line, her own narcissism went out of control. Yes, she never forgot her family of origin sufferings, but that didn’t stop her from becoming a monster herself. This is NOT to say that everyone who endures abuse becomes an abuser.

  • I get what you’re saying CL. But what about when your own personal cheater, who truly sucks at being an honest, faithful partner and is a parent who would shit on his children’s mother in such a humiliating way is actually in a position to make life altering decisions about other people’s lives as his JOB??

    My lying, cheating NPD ex is a judge who presides over divorces and all their related issues and many family court and adoption matters. His last affair partner before I kicked him out was an attorney who appeared before him on just such matters.

    Since it’s damn near impossible to get rid of a sitting judge he continues in his position. He certainly won’t move up the food chain because if he tried I would let loose the documentation of what a supreme douchebag he really is and shut that shit down and he knows it.

    But it still frosts my ass that he is allowed to pretend that he is anything but a common low-life cheater.

    • That’s awful. Ugh… that guy on the bench. Ugh. No solutions to offer you — just UGH. Praying for early retirement… or a scandal to unseat him. I feel for any chump in front of him.

    • Remember Roman Polansky? Did he never do time for having sex with a 15 year old?

  • You know, I don’t take a lot of time to research the personal lives of famous people, but I can tell you that if I find out that they are despicable, I don’t have much problem dropping them and their products like a hot cheater’s potato. Like CL said, I’m not going to narrow my life down to lentils, but I’m fine with not seeing certain movies because I think the lead actor is an asshat for cheating on his wife. I pick my battles here and there, but I mostly make sure that the people who are truly in my life are good and decent. When I find out that someone IRL has cheated, I distance myself as much as is humanly possible.

    But hey… any small step we can take as a group in order to NOT participate in the “Cheaters’ Empire…” I say boycott away!

    • OK, here’s one for you — Sam Shepard. I watched Shepard & Dark last night and came away with a lot of respect for Shepard’s pal Johnny Dark — faithful to his wife in spite of the tragedy of a brain hemorrhage leaving her incapacitated for quite a period of time and then dying early. Sam Shepard was married to Dark’s wife’s daughter, so he was like a step son. You guessed it. Cheated with Jessica Lange, ran off and left behind a twelve year old son. Pathetic.

      The movie was more about Shepard trying to arrange a big payday for the two of them by selling their accumulated letters to some SW archive of literary figures. Lots of personal history from Dark’s perspective, and nearly zero on Shepard’s body of work, which was OK because it sure doesn’t interest me now. Jerk.

  • I know that there are decent people out there, who stay with their spouses faithfully. My father was one such. He’s been dead now for 13 years, but he loved my mother above all else. I would love for my mother, now in her 80s, to find someone to share her remaining years, but she says that when you’re with the best, it’s hard to settle for runners-up. I see the senior couple walking in my neighborhood, holding hands. Both of them are long past the time when he’d be handsome and she’d be beautiful, but the way they look at each other, holding hands, you can tell that they are each other’s lives.

    So I know they’re out there. Cheater statistics show that yes, there are a lot of cheaters out there, and we do need to be wary of them, but there are more non-cheaters.

    On a more personal level, I know I’ll need therapy after divorce. It’s been a while since Dday, and living with the enemy without tipping your hand takes its emotional toll. I will be nowhere near “meh” with respect to relationships, not for a while. But I know, at least intellectually, that I’ll get there eventually.

  • I choose to “Think Globally, Act Locally” because you can’t change stupid, but you can change You. I have always disassociated myself from people who talk the talk but do not walk the walk. It’s been horribly horribly difficult knowing I married such a person. I am in the process of forgiving MYSELF.

    Fuck the other shitheads.

  • I have always made sure people who are famous who don’t think they are role models and act like jerks don’t get my money. I don’t buy their recordings, go to their movies or buy their books knowingly. Once I finally bought a Mondonna tape (yeas ago) at a garage sale for .25 cents. She was a terrible role model for at lest one generation of young girls. I liked a few songs & as long as she wasn’t getting a dime-fine. The only thing I can do is make sure they don’t get my money.

  • I’m with you on not watching Woody Allen movies! I think they’re really formulaic and overrated anyway. Yawn

  • Thank you, CL and everyone, it helps to even just hear that you understand where I’m coming from regarding being triggered by the narcs around us. I’m going to try your suggestions and keep striving for peace.

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