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When Your Cheater Is a Sicko

sacredbedSo the other day, we had a discussion going in the comments about cheaters who do it in the marital bed, the family motorhome, the truck, etc. My opinion is these freaks are a certain subset of cheaters — the real sickos. It’s not enough to cheat, they get an extra kick from secretly debasing their chumps.

I Know a Secret You Don’t Know. It makes them feel powerful to see you unknowingly humiliated this way. Sleeping in their cum-covered sheets. Using the same towels as the affair partner. Sitting down to a nice dinner with their fuckbuddy. Accepting the affair partner’s gifts and presence at your significant life events. They get to revel in your chumpdom and feel superior, united in their dirty little secret. Co-conspirators. Partners in crime.

How delicious. How exciting.

I imagine there are the cheaters who keep their lives more nicely compartmentalized. Home life and double life do not intersect. You visit the escort, you rate the escort. You travel for work, you fuck at the conference. They enjoy a safer kind of cake. (Well, safe in terms of exposure. Not safe in terms of risk and STDs.)

So why the sicko cheater? Why the great big FUCK YOU to the chump?

I have some theories.

1) They’re lazy. People who want to fuck around unfortunately often don’t have to look too far to find someone willing. A co-worker, a neighbor, a family friend. All it takes is someone similarly characterless who’s up for no-strings attached sex.

So, this person was in your circle before, and in your circle they remain. How can they look you in the eye? Invite your kid over for a play date? Bring you homemade banana muffins? It’s part of the “fuck you.” They’re doing a little competition with you — the pick me dance that affair partners do. Even when they tell themselves how uninvested they are, they want those constant reminders how much better they are than you, how moister their muffins are, how much more accomplished their children, how deserving. How lacking you are.

Of course, you’re blindfolded, with both hands tied behind your back, but they’re happy to stand in the ring and sucker punch you and declare themselves the “winner.”

Your spouse, on the other hand, is not just a sicko, they’re probably also just lazy. Why pay by the hour for a hotel when your bed is available? Why make special transportation arrangements when they can drive your truck?

You assign meaning and significance to things because you are a chump. You care. You see the connectedness of things. You ascribe meaning.

Cheaters don’t care and they aren’t connected. It’s about kibbles. Will using our marital bed get me kibbles right now? Okay! Nothing is sacred.

Nothing that is except kibbles.

2) They get off on the deceit. Who gets off on duping delight? Sociopaths. Sicko cheaters feel a contemptuousness for the chump and revel in their superiority at games. Uh, isn’t it a game unless we both know we’re playing a game? Nope, not if you’re a sociopath. We can’t have a level playing field here! The game is duping you! Making you pay for all the slights and grudges to their ego.

Or on the other hand, it’s nothing personal. They’re bored. They’ll chump you for shits and giggles.

How else do you explain one of the OW being invited to your wedding? (Raising my hand here.) Yep, I paid the bar tab for one of my cheater’s OW. Isn’t that special?

I’m sure having one of your OW in attendance at your wedding is a keen reminder that you are Not The Boss of Him. See, he’s “agreeing” to rules he’s already broken! Winning!

And it’s high stakes poker. It’s not enough risk-taking to just cheat, you have to amp up the drama — you have to flaunt it right under your chump’s nose. And they deserve it really for being so stupid. For trusting you.

Sex isn’t the high, deceit is the high. Power and humiliating others is the high. Control is the high.

3) They are delusional. Why do they take such risks? Because they’re loons. They never think their affair partner will rat them out. Everyone is just an extension of them, so won’t everyone just do as they wish? Of course they will. It is good to be puppet master.

Like all the Cluster B freaks, they’re special exceptions to the rules and constraints of chump society. In their imaginations, they never draw a deuce in their high stakes poker game. They always win and never get caught. When in truth, they fuck up because… they just don’t think that far ahead.

When I look back at my cheater’s risk taking, I just marvel. It was so stupid, so transparent, so clearly all going to collapse into a pile of ashes. And yet he did it anyway. Not just to me, but to two wives previously as well. He learned nothing from collapses one and two. He just took greater and more outlandish risks. He really couldn’t see past the next kibble quest.

I’ve alluded to this study before, but just found it again online from a New Yorker article on the science of sociopathy — these folks only see “card to card.” They can’t look over the event horizon to see consequences in order to fear them.

Joseph Newman, who chairs the psychology department at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, is the leading advocate of this theory. His model is based on traditional research methods, such as lab work using rats with brain lesions, and studies of humans using a well-known card-playing task, in which players gradually start to lose money; the players in the control group stopped as their earnings diminished, but the psychopaths could focus only on the outcome of the next card choice. Another hypothesis is that psychopaths lack fear of personal injury and, more important, moral fear—fear of punishment.

I’m not saying all cheaters are sociopaths — but the sadistic fucks who take delight in the double life, enjoy flagrantly humiliating you, and never think the day will come when they’re found out? Yeah, I think they’re sickos.

Whatever it is, it’s some kind of super fucked up. The kind of fucked up you need to get the hell away from.

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  • Wow! This is sooo my cheater to a T! He brought his whore to our house, used to buy her and her co-workers bagels (he’s a cop and they are dispatchers), and AFTER they were caught but I was out of town with our daughter on vacation, brought her back to our house where they proceeded to leave ass prints and a smear (Ewww!) on the living room furniture!
    I mean, what is wrong with these people!?

    • The best description I could come up with for people like this, including my X and his new hole is, hyena. They remind of of hyena’s that scrounge around looking for scraps and just act all-around disgusting. We know the cheaters are gross, but just imagine the mindset of their OP’s. What kind of person would allow herself to be brought to another woman’s home like this and act like this? Fucking hyenas.

      • Thank you, Rumblekitty. As heartbreaking as it was to catch the two cheaters in my home, in my bed…it was just mind blowing as well. I could not believe stbxh was capable of such blatantly disrespectful and utterly disgusting behavior. And as for TwatWaffle…I can’t begin to fathom poaching another woman’s husband let alone fucking him in the marital home/bed…must have been to her liking though because she moved in when I moved out. A hyena indeed : (

        • For another woman to do this . . . to swoop in, fuck in your bed, and move into your home, yes she’s a fucking hyena. Any person capable of this kind of behavior has absolutely no self-respect, no class. And it also speaks to the kind of animal your X is, if he is attracted to this person. Water seeks it’s own level . . .

          One day, she’ll walk into that bedroom and find the very same scenario.

          • If they will do it with you they will to it to you….

            I have no idea why some AP think it will be different for them. Idiots.

            And really, it is just pathetic. My xbf was a sociopath BPD NPD creep. The first question he asked when I confronted him was “how did you find out.”


            • Samiam,
              LOL, mine said, “I didn’t see this coming.” He was always amazed and envious of people who were organized, it was so weird to me. He also couldn’t plan ahead, he had a hard time with that.

              Looking back I can’t believe I was with such an out and out creepy weirdo. Makes me wonder if I was just amazed and totally mesmerized by his weirdness or I just had an almost year long absence of brain power all together.

              I think he compartmentalized so much he was kind of disjointed in his thinking and behavior. I mean to be compartmentalized, you don’t connect the dots with your own compartments so how can you connect with people. You are never friggin whole!

              The only thing I can say now is that in addition to the shock, unbearable pain and trauma of Dday , I was so creeped out by everything having to do with him and couldn’t believe I shared my bed, body and mind with that. Now I feel like someone invaded my body during that relationship and the real me left altogether.

              It’s frightening to think now that I see it all so clearly that I ever was caught up with such a freak in the first place.

              Then again, as they say “20/20 is hindsight”.

              I can say I will never forget the many lessons learned from this experience or the experience itself but it sure is good to have it behind me.

          • Yes, part of what bothers me most is that stbxh KNOWS just what kind of person the AP is but he chooses to ignore that information. I am quite positive that if I had conducted myself in the exact same manner as the AP I would have been kicked to the curb without a backwards glance. Stbxh holds me to a higher standard but fails to recognize that he is nothing more than a selfish, cowardly cheat…just like the AP.

            • Yes, but STBX is the same type of fucked up. He knows he’s just as gross as she is, but he probably figures if he keeps stating otherwise, it’ll stick.

              It won’t. He’s a pig just like she is.

          • What about the OW who cheats with a Married Man? Why should she be surprised to find him in bed with someone else? Why would he be surprised to find HER in bed with someone else? They are both cheaters … he cheats on his spouse and she is cheating with him. This is why they seek each other out because they are just alike…lazy, thrill seekers with no conscience or giving a thought to anything or anyone else except their own bodily pleasures.

        • ‘TwatWaffle’ – that’s brilliant. My new favourite word. Lovely assonance!

          • Can’t take the credit for TwatWaffle ladies! Got it from a poster over at SI…but I love it and I use it when referring to the AP. It is not language I would normally use but seems completely appropriate in this case : )

        • I feel for you lovehonorcherish, that’s how I discovered he was cheating.

          I remember seeing her on my side of the bed, and just not being able to believe I was seeing it. In our bed!!! There are visuals, and then there are VISUALS. I thought I never would get that sight (or the feelings that came with it) out of my head.

          There is something really sleazy about that.

          • There is not enough “mind bleach” to make that visual go away. No one should ever see another woman on her side of her bed.

            • Well not the same but when ex moved out to be with OW he took the marital bed. OW sleeps in it ( on my side….yuck yuck yuck) and my son heard her say “this bed is so comfy”. I know not the same as seeing them together but I loved my bed. Now it’s tainted. In fact I miss the bed more than I miss him!

      • I like your description and now have a new name for my husband’s AP!! When I found out he had brought her into our back yard to hook up in the family trailer, my first thought wasn’t “How could he do that?”, it was “What the hell kind of fucked up woman does that? Sneaks past the house where the wife and kids are to go screw some asshole in his backyard?”! And now I know…a fucking hyena!!!!

      • I am also in total dismay about what kind of super sick person accepts an invitation from a married/committed person to screw them in the bed they share with their spouse/partner.

        My cheater didn’t screw his “twat waffle” (love that term!!) in our bed, but I can ascertain that she is incredibly low self-esteem, very little education, and extremely poor writing skills. I can only imagine that affair partners who screw around in the marital bed have no self respect.

        p.s. I would pay for bed sheets designed with waffle cones filled with ice cream and pubic hair sprinkled on top, with the words “twat waffle” all over. I’d send them to my cheater ex and his new “love”

        • Oh, maybe your cheater’s AP and mine are the same person. I have no idea how he could have carried on a text affair with someone who puts Z on the end of plurals (pluralz) and adds extra letters into most of herrrrr woooorrrdddz. It would drive me bat shit crazy to communicate with a supposed adult who writes like a tween girl would write about Twilight vampires.

          • I use “z” went I talk about having the sadz. It pulls the sarcasm into it. lol

            • Yeah, but there’s just that extra special spice that I can’t quite put my finger on about a “z” from this “gurllll” x is doing now. I like the way you write, RK!

            • That’s what I think of as LOLCat talk. And we get the sarcasm and the humor. It’s a way of taking the sting out of the sad. Like me saying “yinz” as second person plural. This is someone who talks about her dreamz. And girlz. And on and on. Who writes Happpppyyyyyy Birrrrthdaaaayyyyy, FB and Pinterest, as part of her “I never grew up” and “look at me, I’m cool like the kidz” image. You are cool because you don’t have to try to be cool.

          • Oh wow! This is the womangirl that x is sleeping with now! I texted her to see if my phone records between them showing massive amounts of text/calls were really what I thought they meant. She’s been a friend of x and mine for over 15 years. Her texts back to me were in the style you describe!

            “Hhhiiiii!!! Yyesss we’re friends!! You looovee him but that love neeeeds to change!!! Men are different! They Nneeeed sex more than us!!!!! Xoooxooooo!!! Missss you gurllll! When are you coming back to (city where I live with x)????”

            And each sentence was delivered as a new text, so she sent several texts in a row for one paragraph of thoughts. Ugh. I stared at her text-bomb for a few minutes, then laughed out loud. I’m staying in my new city, btw. And have no feelings for my x anymore. She can have my cheating sloppy seconds!

            • Can you imagine texting with a stupid cow like that? “Do you looooovvvve meeee?” .

              • Haha. Guess it could *sort of* explain the massive number of texts since she hits send after each sentence. It was just so ridiculous to read what she wrote, the spelling, the exclamation point frenzy, etc., – that all I could do was think “Man. If this is what x is after in a woman these days, then no we aren’t a match any longer.” Helped me lose all desire for him again, so that’s good, at least. smh

            • She is ridiculous. Cringe inducing if I thought she had any consciousness. It’s so stupid it’s hard to feel embarrassed. More like numbed out. These psychos think they are so full of passion when they are simply brick heads. Tone deaf with no feeling. In her moronic way, she sounds like she is working hard to keep you at bay, keeping herself in the secure position. She’s really working hard at keeping you in the “poor thing” position. Oh she will not know what hit her when the time comes.

              • I particularly enjoy the fact that there’s no surprise or apology or anything. Just hugs, kisses and asking when I’ll be back to hang out b’c she misses meeeeee!!!!!!!!!
                Too much.

            • i got a text from chewbacca saying “IAINT NO HOOD RAT” in response to my texting him that i hoped he was happy with his hood rat. hahaha.. i really did laugh out loud thinking only a hood rat would say i aint no hood rat. she just proved she was in one single text.

              they really are that stupid

          • I’m thinking t-shirts!

            “My x prefers blue waffles.”

            “9 out of 10 cheaters prefer blue waffles.”

            “Blue waffles? You can’t eat just one!”

    • Mine two both his affairs right inside our marital bed and my 9 year old son found out and was man enough to tell me how do I get this creep back?

  • A YEAR before Dday, before I suspected anything, XH had OW cat sit for us while we were on vacation. She was supposed to come in, scoop the cat box, and refill the food and water. We’d had dozens of grad students do the same over the years.

    We got back from the trip late at night, and when we walked in, the house smelled like cat urine – for the first time EVER since we’d owned a cat. Why? Because the litter box was in the basement, and OW had come in, scooped the box, then closed the basement door so the cat couldn’t go down there and use it. The poor kitty tinkled on the floor near the basement door, and was clearly upset by it.

    I couldn’t believe the idiocy. I told XH the girl was a moron and wondered how she’d gotten into grad school. He took offense and stood up for her. I told him never to ask for her help again.

    But he did. I took the girls to a birthday party one Saturday morning about 3 months before Dday, and came home to find OW babysitting our son, then age 5. XH was nowhere to be found. I was furious that he’d not only left, but left S5 with a sitter, and the moron cat sitter, no less. She seemed really uncomfortable – no doubt sensing my annoyance – and left as soon as I got home. Good riddance. She’d apparently made S5 grilled cheese for lunch and had burned both it and the pan. It’s a wonder she didn’t burn down the house. I told XH again that I thought she was an idiot and told him NOT to call her again for anything. He got ticked and stood up for her yet again.

    Fast forward to a month post D-day. I’m playing detective, going through his receipts, and discover he bought OW Victoria Secret underwear as a thank you for watching the cat, and a cute outfit as a thanks for watching S5.

    Looking back, I’m sure he enjoyed pulling the wool over my eyes. I work from home so I doubt they were ever together in our bed, but he did take her to dinner and on trips several times while I was home, watching the kids. His arrogance during the affair and while he was cake eating was astounding. Total Sicko.

  • I think there’s another category of these people – the cheaters that cheat (or try to) with your friends. My ex hit on one of my best friends one night. Thank goodness she was a true friend and told me about it and told him he was disgusting and to fuck off, but that he even had that kind of nerve shows he was pushing boundaries however he could find them.

    • My ex cheated with several of my ‘friends’ and also screwed one of them in our home while I was asleep. Nice to find that out, even if it was long after dday. Still pissed me off and put me off my food for a week. What pigs.

      • My H tried to tell me that 3 of MY really good friends had come onto him over the years. Is he joking? – they are good women I’ve known all my life and consider them special. Was he trying to further hurt me because, I know for a fact, none of these special women would have come on to him because of the friendship they have with ME. (but of course, I was fooled by one hyena) I feel like telling these 3 friends what he said and let them phone him to tell him off. hmmm….maybe I’ll do just that. What a way to twist the knife in even further. Fucktard!

        • The idiot probably believed they had come on to him (they are so desirable, you know). They may have ask how his day was once, which in their penis shaped world means “do you want to fuck”.

          They have their own bizarre slant on stuff.

        • One friend told me quite awhile after dday that ex had come on to her at a party at our house years before. People were drunk and although she told him to piss off she chalked it up to a drunken move and didn’t tell me at the time. When she did tell me she felt horrible and was so apologetic because she realised that had she told me then I would have not wasted another few years with ex (or maybe I would have? At least I would have had some clue, though).

          I have to say that hearing so much stuff in the months (and even years) after dday was horrifying. People knew something was not right but no one said a word to me. I look back and wonder if I would have said anything had I been in that position and realise I wouldn’t have, because I had a friend’s husband come on to me at a party and my response was to back away from them as a couple, not to tell the wife.

          Now? I’d tell in a heartbeat.

        • Yes! That is what he said when I asked him about it, that if I “had been there, I would have seen how she was looking at him and dancing”. Delusional.

  • I wonder if it really matters to the cheater, martial bed or hotel? Both are betrayals. Degree of severity? It’s like getting shot or stabbed. Would any of you feel better about your McCheater if they used hotels instead of the car/truck/couch etc?

    I think it mostly is a sense of entitlement, selfishness, and instant gratification. I sometimes think I live in a bubble because it’s so foreign to me how people so this.

    I teach elementary school and the kids today, many… Not all, have a serious sense of entitlement and get instant gratification. I think many of them may maintain that attitude as they get older. I think that mindset is conducive to cheating, You know, because. “Hey I wanted this and why shouldn’t I have it? I deserve it. I deserve to be happy. It’s not about anybody else, it’s about me. ”

    When you have a sense of entitlement you lack empathy. I am thankful I was taught important lessons growing up about empathy and thankfulness. My dad told me a saying when I was young, “I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet. “. It really hit home about perspective and I think of that always.

    • Young kids tend to be a little narcissistic. Sure, they can have empathy, but they think the world revolves around them to a large extent, and the empathy goes right out the window when “something important” to them is a concern: their successes are unequaled triumphs, and their failures are unparalleled and unmitigated disasters 🙂 Plus, getting to the next level on that video game may be the most important thing that happens all week .

      That’s normal in kids. It’s even normal in teenagers. I bet you were a bit narcissistic as a kid 🙂

      In adults, it’s a problem. Part of becoming an adult is understanding your own limitations and the commonality of human suffering, and becoming more humble and more empathetic.

      • When I and my siblings were very young, and when we thought the world was crashing in on us, or that “everyone” would look at us funny for some kind of idiotic mistake we’d made, my father used to tell us that we needed to look at things “sub specie aeternitatis,” which means “from the aspect of eternity,” and that we needed to look at what we’d done from a more objective perspective. Sure, we might have goofed, but the universe doesn’t revolve around us. What seems major right now won’t be in twenty years.

        In retrospect, I’m not sure of the wisdom of having small children know the Latin phrase well enough to use it in everyday conversation…:P

    • It only matters in the sense that the cheaters truly amp up the betrayal by bringing the OP into your own bed. No . . . we wouldn’t feel better if they kept it on the down-low, but the fact that it was so blatantly disrespectful and downright mean DOES make it worse. Considerably so in my opinion.

      It’s bad enough they’re doing it, but when they take more pleasure in bringing the OP into places you consider “safe”, yeah it stings.

      • When the cheating happens in the home, in the marital bed, in the chump’s vehicle, with a friend or relative or neighbor of the chump, with someone from church or the teacher from their kid’s school or the Scout leader—that is all amping up the betrayal because now it’s not just a secret affair, it’s a double betrayal. “I know something you don’t know. I’m cheating on you. And I’m cheating on you with someone you know or love or have to see every day. Or I’m cheating on you and bringing the hyena in the house to show how little you matter–even your own home isn’t “safe.” They aren’t just breaking marriage vows; they are breaking the most fundamental trust people need to have in each other to live together safely.

        I know a woman who daughter tried to burn the house down at night, with the family sleeping inside. How would those people ever close their eyes at night, knowing this girl tried to kill them in their sleep? These cheaters are on that same page. That’s why I am now convinced that it isn’t solely about sex or “true love” or marital problems. This sort of cheating is about power. CL says it well, as always: “Sex isn’t the high, deceit is the high. Power and humiliating others is the high. Control is the high.” I also think that’s why this sort of betrayal is so hard to recover from. You not only find out the person you love has broken vows and promises to be sexually and emotionally faithful; you find out that they are capable of hurting you in the deepest ways without thought, without concern, without remorse.

        • You said it right, LaJ. When I lived with cheater before D-day I would startle anytime someone walked in the room. I had images that someone was going to shoot me. I have none of that now. None. His deception to relentlessly breach my basic safety was excruciating. And when I cried he was tisk tisking and tapping his iphone.

      • RK,
        There is no safe with these faux people because there no boundaries.

    • Well, I think having sex in your home or bed shows that you don’t feel any sense of guilt. It doesn’t even bother you to see reminders of the person you vowed to love forever.

      The OW/OM who agrees to have sex in the home has to be either desperate and willing to put up with anything or somehow thinking that if they get into the home it means the cheater cares about them.

      • Marking their territory, like a dog peeing on another dog’s porch.

    • I think when they screw in your bed, it puts paid to any notion that they were able to compartmentalise their feelings or somehow see the affair as separate or secondary to their real life. Screwing in the marital bed puts the ap places him/her right at the centre of the marriage, the family and the home. This is the bed where you have shared and discussed your fears and dreams, cuddled each other to sleep and conceived your children in. There can be no argument that they didn’t mean to hurt you or they weren’t thinking about you at the time.

      It wouldn’t be any better if it was in a hotel or somewhere else but there is a special kind of creepy in knowing he screwed her in my bed then let me sleep in the same sheets later that night. Eeuw.

  • Dear Chump Lady, I want to commend you on a wonderful interview. You had great insight in the responses to the callers.

    It takes some of us who have been drinking the kool-aid extra time to understand that there can never be true reconciliation. Kool-aid not only provided by the cheater that the affair didn’t mean anything, cheater wanted to end the affair but was afraid I would find out but yet still fing the ap in my personal and private space, family advisors validating cheater’s intent and implementation to seek other aps meant that the current affair was coming to an end – “the cheater couldn’t love the ap bc the cheater was planning to cheat on the ap, (isn’t that f’ed up and yet I take comfort in that fact) but also groups of chumps preaching to other chumps to reconcile knowing there will be and have been other DDays, taking solace in now “knowing what red flags we missed and not to miss them again.” The kool-aid helps to maintain these cheaters in the double life they believe they are entitled to and we chumps created and supported that entitlement. As a fellow chump I tried to clean house out with the old -the old bed- and in with the new- as if my house is not or was not sullied. A spackle of paint should take care of that as well as a good wash of the sheets, blankets, towels or a white sale at Bloomies. It takes a chump some time to clear the fog out of their head to see how f’ed up thinking this is the way I should live my life knowing that my spouse is a sociopath and will f me over again given the chance.

  • THAT was the study I was talking about, thank you!!!! It was driving me crazy not remembering where I saw it.

    Yep. Wackos. The Cluster B disordered are the most frightening and destructive humans on the planet. Yes, they are mentally ill, but they ENJOY it. I don’t think onewould find many mentally ill people who PREFER to be that way!

    I think that as soon as we all accept this simple fact—that these people not only CANNOT be cured or managed…but that they will fight to the death to prevent any such change (consciously. it’s not as if they are blind and ignorant of the consequences oftheir behavior.). The rivers of tears, the screaming and fighting and cajoling…the billions spent on MC and IC and the exabytes of emails—-all explainingand bargaining with them—all to no avail.

    My X is this blogpost to the Nth degree. Blowjobs and God knows wht else in the family vehicle…then puts our kids in said vehicle just hours later. Fuckbuddy in my house. I am hearing now that he paraded her all over town…daring anyone to say something to him or to me.

    And he’s not one bit remorseful. The defiance knocked the breath right out of me. Like TimeHeals said yesterday….they are the mental equivalent of 5 year olds.

    • Yes, the disordered are proud of their ability to lie, con and cheat their way through life, and they feel contempt for those they fool. The morning after Dday, ex proudly told me, “I love the way I am, and I would never want to change.” I suspect that’s how all disordered really feel, my ex simply said it out loud.

      • My X said- I love me!
        So how come he’s hatin’ life, now that he’s in charge of himself? Everybody, him included, says I was the only thing keeping him in a normal, functioning life. How can he be so proud about himself, and also know he fucks absolutely everything up, including things he was handed on a Silver Platter?
        Oh, yeah, he’s a Wingnut Freak.

        • shortly after d’day mine told me that he had made his peace with God and the affairs were now in his past and that he did not understand why I was so upset. He stated “I just don’t get it?”

          mine claims he never had anyone to our home, though I do think otherwise. He did confess to fantasizing about others while in bed with me. Yep I got the sick and twisted one.

          • Ahhhh yes. The fantasizing/thinking/dreaming of others while with you. I got the prime opportunity to read and hear for myself in his own words to f**buddy how she was 24/7 on his mind. While living in my house, talking to me, talking to our kids, interacting with my family and his, spending my money, sleeping in my bed, having sex with me.

            Uh huh. First of all, attempting to be The Thought Police, is not only serving them kibbles on a silver platter (because you have to keep asking, “What are you thinking, sweetheart?)—it gives the cheater the absolutely AWESOME ammunition to prove that YOU are wacko and not him.

            “She keeps at me with wanting to know every thought I have! I can’t stand it! I have no basic human privacy! I HAD TO FIND SOMEONE WHO WOULDN’T DO THAT TO ME!!” Or the one I like most….”You treat me like a CHILD!”

            You WILL be the nutty one, people WILL circle the wagons for him against you, if you go down that road. It’s tempting, I know. I kept my mouth shut about it, but what was seen and heard cannot be unseen and unheard. Those words will ring in my ears forever.

            Being the Marriage Police is one thing…GPS, keyloggers, PIs…that’s tangible and you’re forced into doing it if you think you’re going to “reconcile” to any degree (it’s human nature). But Thought Police? Sweetheart, it’s over. Stick a fork in it if you EVER hear yourself asking him/her “What are you thinking?”

            It will eat you alive.

            Here’s what I say to this man who claimed also to be “good with God” on this whole cheating thing—-then let God forgive you, because I don’t have to. It’s HIS job, not mine. It’s an easy cop out—because there is no work to be done when asking God for forgiveness, is there!! XH bestowed God’s forgiveness on HIMSELF, because he said so!

  • Huh, well, the study sure does explain the $35K KOTD (King of the Dipshits – crowned thus by a dear friend) lost at the casinos! To add to the delusion – he didn’t have an AP, per se, he was just fucking a gal he met on eHarmony! Well, until she figured his ass out & dumped him. So did his next victim… So guess what? He has no one now! He’s such a flaming sack of victimhood no one wants to be around him. So, guess what – he’s “lonely”! So he goes to the casinos where he pays someone to be nice to him (dealer, pit boss…) & pisses away our marital assets. Then complains to anyone who will listen that “she won’t give me any money”. Umm, no, I take enough money to pay for food & shelter for YOUR CHILDREN & leave you enough to pay your bills. He then chooses to spend that money at the boats then bitches that he doesn’t have enough $$ for gas in his car. The delusions just keep on coming!!
    This is the guy who couldn’t keep the affair a secret. He had to let me know all about it – because if I didn’t know, how could he gloat about all the women who want him so bad? What good is “pulling one over on you” (one of his favorite catch phrases) if I don’t know I’ve been duped? So he would keep the secrets until he needed to hurt me, then would whip them out for the big reveal. HE chose to move out – that sexy bachelor pad for all his conquests, far away from my prying & meddlesome eyes. Now? Now he bitches about how he’s living in squalor ($960/mo uh, no, those are nice). The shine came off that pretty darn quick.
    Thanks Tracy & Chump Nation for letting me vent – I think I needed that!

    • I know it’s not “meh” but it’s nice when the karma bus hits em!

    • My stbxh couldn’t wait to tell me about his affair either…needed to be able to gloat about how desirable other women think he is. Before he confessed, I did have some suspicions, but just didn’t know for sure until he didn’t come home one night. When he finally showed up the next day around noon, I waited to see what he said and what excuses he offered up. His first words to me were “I’m losing so much weight, my clothes are falling right off!!” As if that would explain everything. He then told me he had met someone else and that I could still live here and help him run his business. I filed for divorce as soon as the lawyer opened his door for business the next morning!!!

      • “He then told me he had met someone else and that I could still live here and help him run his business.” Now there’s a heaping helping of entitlement, served up with a shit sandwich. Glad you opted out right away.

        • I think that lines deserves a cartoon –> “I’ve met someone else but you can still live here and help me with my business.”

      • My XH had a business too. He took the other route. He changed the locks on the doors and the password on the computer even though I was the one who tried to keep the books (he was a cheater in business too). Then when we went for depositions, he complained that he had to hire an accountant because I was no longer keeping the books for him so he had added costs because of me. Say What?

      • Debbie L – my stbx also couldn’t wait to reveal so many details the night he decided to confess. Oh my God – he was SO relieved the ‘game’ was over. Now he didn’t have to lie anymore. I couldn’t believe his relief as I’m sitting there in horror hearing many more details than I cared to and wasn’t asking about. (hey, I stayed very very calm, listening to every detail) Over the next 3 wks he kept dribbling more details…almost like he was proud of them. I fucking could have hit his head with a full wine bottle when he smirked about some of the places he fucked her.
        This is real sicko stuff.
        (btw – your H is out all night and all he can offer up is his pants are falling down? Must have left his belt behind? ha ha)

  • When his emotional affair was blooming into what would be his exit affair, he traded ad time at his radio station for class time in her yoga studio. He took me and our 2 daughters to her studio for free yoga classes while he was fantasizing about doing her. Lots of fun for him (I imagine) to watch her bend over while watching me try to match her – my own little Pick-Me dance that I didn’t even know I was doing. It’s taken me 2 years to be able to do yoga again without feeling nauseated. Downward Facing Dog, indeed…

    • Sigh. Yes, let’s bring my wife and children to the studio of the woman I’m fucking. It’s repulsive. Honestly, what the hell is the point?!

      Fucking nasty hyenas . . . that’s what they are.

    • omg MzMama – that made me puke a lot in my mouth. Sickening. Totally fucking sickening.

      • Reading all the stories here and remembering what I went through is just mind blowing. How many of these freaks are there? I couldn’t even dream up this kind of shit if I were trying to be evil. It’s all so demented and totally unforgivable and completely unimaginable. The cruelty and depravity is beyond twisted.

        Who needs to watch horror movies or read Stephen King, just come here for a read and this shit is all real.

        • Deborah, I wonder that same thing myself. Books and statistics I’ve read put these sociopaths at about 3% of the population. I think we all have to understand that yeah, we chose them, but we were also TARGETED by them. It wasn’t like we just found one and said, “Oh hey! This looks fun!”

          They mirror what you want. They say anything to get what they want. They morph into whatever it is that they have to be in order to get where they need to go.

          NORMAL people don’t do this. It’s why you and I are not friends with everybody on the fucking planet!! If we all did this, we would all be just mirroring each other like one big circle jerk!

          It’s why we are here, and they are not. They don’t seek help or explanations or grieve like we do. They don’t experience the normal gamut of emotions that we do.
          It’s a good thing that we don’t understand it, Deborah. I would be frightened for myself if I did.

          • Amen to that last line Buttercup!

            I am not by nature a jealous person and never have been nor am I a nosy person which I guess is what saved me and made it so much easier for me to walk away from my crazy 2 days after D Day. Finally, I listened to my gut and got away to protect myself. Needless to say, I completely fell apart after walking away. I was traumatized because I spackled so much and had been manipulated so much and witnessed behavior I never experienced before and didn’t know which way was up or down. I had PTSD, I would throw up in my mouth in the mornings shortly after, I was having panic attacks, didn’t miss a day of work and lost 8 pounds almost immediately and smoked like a chimney.

            I couldn’t understand how I let myself get into this situation with an admitted sex addict (HELLO HUGE RED FLAG) fairly early on in the relationship, of course after we had slept together several times, which I waited to do after about going on about 8 dates to make sure I felt something for him (fyi, he wasn’t even that good in the sack and did in fact have a very small penis, actually he seemed kind of clueless to the erogenous zones of the female body and in the beginning had to take viagra every now and then but not later on in the relationship (HELLO RED FLAG!)) and I was already emotionally attached after being loved bombed like crazy (HELLO RED FLAG) and was completely snowballed into believing he took care of his addiction with therapy and anti depressants, the anti depressants he was still taking when we were together. Thank goodness I declined the invite to live together. I said I wasn’t ready and had to wait and see.

            The shit I bought from this master manipulator who by the way I wasn’t even attracted to in the least when we first met. After I was talked into a second date with him because he was smooth and confident, it was like a switch went off in my head on the second date and I was telling myself to give him a chance, he seemed cool, we had similar interests and a similar love of off center humor, film and music (Hello, No CHARACTER COMMONALITY HERE). We knew three people in common. One of who was a friend who new him through another mutual friend of theirs and told me she thought we wouldn’t be a good match because she thought he was socially awkward (ANOTHER RED FLAG) before we went on our first date. We were in different ends of the same business.

            The point of all of this is that shortly after the end, I was JEALOUS OF HIM and the fact that 3 weeks later he found another chump who he told me he was emotionally unavailable for but she really liked him. LOL. He continued to try and hoover me 6 months after I left both directly and indirectly through other people as I blocked him immed. on facebook and ignored emails most of the time. Then it finally and thankfully stopped.

            I was so jealous of the fact that he had no emotions and could just keep on rolling along and having fun with a new chump so fucking quickly and with no interest in her or emotional investment. Same as he did with me and everyone of the perhaps thousands that came before me including massage parlor hookers and straight up hookers and hookups, Including 3 longterm relationships prior to me one of which was his wife of 20years and 2 kids (poor things). The other two long term relationships actually stayed friends with him. NOT ME, I am not that much of an idiot!

            I was not jealous in that I wanted him back as I never wanted him near me ever again but I was jealous that he could rebound so quickly and continue on his merry way while I felt completely destroyed and was so furious with myself for allowing this to happen to me. The anger I felt at myself for being so incredibly stupid in begin chumped by such a loser was the worst kind of humiliation imaginable. He was a sloppy, lazy fat pig who totally got over on me and I was jealous of him! Can you imagine that? I went into therapy for 3 months and unfortunately my therapist was not equipped to properly handle this and ran to my gyno for full testing twice, once right after and then again 6 months later. I wasn’t having fun at all.

            The funniest thing is that CL’s website started about 1-2 months after my relationship started. Wish I was reading this then.

            Now a year and a half later, I accept the many valuable lessons learned from this after seeing evil cruelty straight in the eye while ignoring my gut with every twitch it had at all red flags along the way which started on the first date. Has it made me a better person? Not sure yet, been working very hard on that. Do I like myself more, hell yes!!! I am my own rip roaring MOMMA BEAR NOW.

            Did I learn my hard lessons well? HELL TO THE YES on that one.

            Will I be a repeat offender to not properly protecting myself going forward? HELL TO THE NO.

            The best part now in looking back is that it all is so crystal clear that it is just funny. The red alarms were spinning and whirling from the beginning and I just trotted along trying to figure it all out and see where it would go while having fun sometimes and feeling loved sometimes and loving back sometimes. It’s just good to now be able to laugh at the ridiculous of it all and know that I would never fall for such obvious toxicity again.

            It’s like saying goodbye to the blind version of me who now has 20/20 and laughing at the blind me as I see all the obvious walls and curbs I walked into and fell over while blind that are clear as day now.

            Ok, I think I am done now, thanks for reading and my apologies for just throwing all of that up but it was necessary and it felt really good!

            I wish how I feel now for everyone who isn’t there yet. It’s a great place to be after this crap and you can and will get there!!! It ain’t easy to do but it is doable.

            Peace and Love, no bullshit!

  • CL, you are really on to something over how little these people think about the MESS that they create, and the consequences they inflict on other people. Yes, wondering whether you are going to ‘reconcile’ or to divorce, handling the impact on the kids – none of this is thought about, and of course they are never going to get caught.

    I am someone whose husband put a bullet right between the eyes of our marriage, when he brought OW into our house, would have supper with her, walk her past and invite her to admire the happy, smiling INNOCENT little faces of our 7-12 year kids, and then fuck her in their and our beds.

    How can you do this? I will never get it. It has to be a giant FUCK YOU, not thinking about the mess, and maybe unconsciously wanting me to end the marriage.

    • Well if you end the marriage, he’ll just have to find someone else to humiliate. I think you absolutely should end the marriage to someone like that. In your kids’ beds? Sick.

    • And if anyone else ask why you divorced this nutjob, you say, “He brought another woman into our home and had sex with her in our children’s beds.” That’ll shut them up.

    • Patsy – that is deeply disturbing. And in a place like chump nation, where we all have so many disturbing stories, I mean that is deeply, DEEPLY disturbing. Any man who gets turned on while in his child’s bed is a sick fucker.

  • Hey CL, can you post the link, editing out the song and the intro, to when you start talking? I would like to post it on my FB.

    • Maybe some other chump can step in on this? I don’t have sound editing equipment. I will post about the interview in tomorrow’s post. Thanks.

      • Yes, there were two sound bites that were especially interesting that could do with separate links: one, when spouses are blamed for contributing to the cheating and the absurdity of that,

        and then the second when you and Dr Simon are talking about character disorder, how the person-centred approach DOES NOT WORK with them and the therapist just gets played like everyone else, and how they need to be benignly confronted, paradoxically the only chance to earn their trust . I would like to present that to my psychology department.

  • I have a sicko, for sure. In some ways I do think that is easier than having one of these charming cheaters that other people on this site talk about. He is not fake and charming. He just comes accross as totally odd, which helps me.

    About three weeks ago, I got a Preliminary PO and last week I had to go back and argue for a Permanent PO. I had to do this on my own…after spending about $10,000 on attorneys the well is dry and I am self-representing while I care solely for our toddler. He (of course) had another fancy attorney with him and lots of witnesses and exhibits. He even had before and after pictures of me when I cut my hair really short after I had the baby. This was entered as evidence- a very short haircut- ?? But, this is the guy who documented my weight gain from a size 8 to a size 14 post-baby as alienation of affection…[update on this. He’s gained about 45 pounds since the split so he gets weird looks when he tries to present my weight gain as evidence]

    Anywhoo, so, I got to present months of documentation of all his weirdness. 1) He flies from where he lives in another state when he does not have visitation, rents a car and follows me around. He’s done this multiple times. 2) He texts and calls me repeatedly if I don’t have him blocked, despite having several DIFFERENT legal teams on his payroll doing various things like: fighting child support, fighting the custody agreement: suing me for a share of the house I owned before I met him and my parents’ money. Even though he’s trying to destroy me legally, he insists upon calling me almost every hour just to chat. About life. About how I’m doing. 3) He broke into my storage unit and stole my son’s baby book….I could go on and on. Sick, weird stuff.

    So, finally I got to stand in front of a judge and just speak my truth. I presented everything, bullet point by bullet point, with all my documentation, and I spoke in plain English. After I was done, his lawyer got up, entered about 27 things into evidence, examined witnesses and finally put him up on the witness stand- and you know what? He stank of sicko. Idk- you can just tell that he’s mostly a fake autobot person without normal feelings inside. Despite all his money and his lawyer and all his evidence- he lost. I got the Permanent PO, just me on my own in my plaid loafers from Payless with my bullet-point presentation of sicko weirdness.

    Stand up Chumps! Speak your truth! It moves me so much that I was able to speak truth to the judge and she helped me and saw and smelled his sickness, and I didn’t have to pay a dime. That’s real justice.

    • I am so proud of you Rose! I know how hard it is to go into that court, every time I went I was shaky, so much harder without a lawyer. You Rock!

      It cost me nearly $10K to argue for my “permanent” PO and the judge had to postpone all other cases, ours went all day long. I did win it, even though my lawyer thought I would lose. Unfortunately in my state a “permanent” PO is only two years, so I had to go before a judge last year for renewal, got it, have to go again next March. I hope I get it despite his not violating it since the last renewal, ex scares the shit out of me.

    • Rose, you are mighty! And brave! While the legal system regarding domestic relations (divorces, support, alimony, property distribution) is cumbersome, too often biased against the chump and not designed to protect the innocent against sickos, it is a wonderful thing that you can go into alone, present your case, and be heard and taken seriously by a judge. The good ones see a lot of “sicko,” often spackled up by their legal teams. So glad that you got a good judge, an honorable judge. Hope the rest of your legal issues with this nutjob resolve in your favor as well.

    • Awesome Rose! He sounds like a nut-case. I’m glad you’re being careful.

      I just had to ask though, what was his “evidence” regarding your short hair cut? And weight gain? He actually presented this shit to the judge?

      • So, the weight gain thing is like his flag in the sand. It’s literally the first thing in every booklet of evidence or affadavit or declaration. I’ve seen it about 55 times now. It used to make me weep with shame, but now I am so over it. It’s a letter between us that talks about how much weight I gained, and how my breastfeeding (my son is mostly weaned now, but I was a crunchy attachment mama and he breastfed at request until about 18 mo) is disgusting and how he can’t bear to have sex with me because of fat and milk everywhere. It has zero legal significance. I think he includes it to be mean, but I CAN’T believe his lawyers include it. It has helped me time and time again. It always hurts him. Usually people are appalled when they read it. Appalled. Especially as I am just not that big. There’s a muffin top. That’s about it.

        The haircut thing was new. After the second D-Day, I went to my parent’s house in Maine and I cut my hair very short- almost a buzz cut. So, he showed before and after pictures of me and his lawyer said that showed mental instability because “my head was shaved.” It was bizarre. When I cross-examined I asked him if he could see hair on my head in the picture. He said yes. I said “So, is it shaved or is it just very short?” He agreed it was not shaved it was only very short. Then I said “Do you think women who cut their hair short are all mentally unstable?” and he said no. Then the judge said out loud “I don’t think this hair issue is relevant.” It means nothing.

        I am coming to believe that his lawyers just take money from him and dance for their paycheck. I don’t think they even expect to win. They just put together a book of his nasty stuff to make HIM happy so they will keep paying him. They don’t care if the judge thinks it’s BS- he pays and so they do what he says.

        • Mental instability . . . that’s some funny shit. Amazing that X doesn’t see how presenting stuff like this makes HIM look crazy. He sounds like a complete jackass.

        • That’s great, Rose. You kick, ass.

          My XH, too, had blabbed on and on in his affidavit about irrelevant stuff like how I had posted to Marriage Builders after finding out about his affair and how I had asked to switch offices at my workplace when I was pregnant because I was concerned about the health of my unborn baby due to potentially toxic fumes, and my XH tried to use all this as evidence that I was “mentally unstable.” I also wondered why his lawyers just let him blab on like this (didn’t make him look good), but they just probably gave in to him, as he is the client.

        • I bet you’re right. I also bet his lawyers probably told him that pregnancy weight gain and breastfeeding would not be good items for alienation of affection. However, his money is coming in, and while they should just cut him loose out of ethical concerns, they’re still for hire. Maybe over time he’ll figure out that he’s got an unwinnable case. 😉

        • Well, no wonder he loses. Holy cow on on a cracker, he’s nuts. Berating a new mother for weight gain and breastfeeding? “Fat and milk everywhere”? He’s lucky some female judge hasn’t locked him in a psycho ward. Keep on going to court pro se, with your little muffin top and your hair, short or long, and make sure you wear nice “mom” clothes. He’ll get nuked flying his abuser flag.

    • Wow Rose! Well done! You are mighty.

      And what kind of FREAK uses your pregnancy weight gain (NORMAL!) as “alienation of affection”? Are you kidding me?!

      You give these nuts enough rope and they hang themselves. Unbelievable.

      It reminds me of years ago, my son’s father was in court saying I was a bad mother for hiring a babysitter when I had to work (a job at the Defense Department).

      The judge was a WOMAN. I saw her scowl as he went there. Epic fail. He had his ass handed to him.

      • “And what kind of FREAK uses your pregnancy weight gain (NORMAL!) as ‘alienation of affection?'”

        Yeah, because nothing says Lack of Affection like carrying your baby for nine months, risking life in childbirth, and ensuring the existence of your family into the future.

        Rose, you are a True Chump Badass. I’m not a huge Maya Angelou fan, but one of her quotes applies here:

        “I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life’s a bitch. You’ve got to go out and kick ass.”

    • Rose – omg – now, that mightiness absolutely made my day. Thank you!

  • Thanks, CL, for another great post. This “high,” duper’s delight, is why the cheater ends up cheating again, just to get that high again. The cheater mistakens the high for romantic feelings and “true love” for the AP. This is why affairs typically crumble or end in years of misery after the affair is exposed and the chump steps out of the triangle (no one to dupe anymore).

    My XH actually let it slip that he particularly enjoyed the fact that the OW was from the same country and went to the same college as my mother (my mom has a lot of college pride), to get back at her for “looking down” on him and perceived slights she apparently made to his ego. He also let it slip that he was thinking of having the OW babysit our kids (we were looking for a new babysitter at the time). Wouldn’t that be fun? My entrusting our kids to someone XH was having a secret relationship with!

    I also know a woman whose friend would text her every time she had fun with her new “f*ck buddy.” Turned out the new “f&ck buddy” was the woman’s husband.

    This “high” also explains why my XH was pretty open about the affair, e.g., taking the OW out in public to restaurants near his place of work, taking her to the opera, parties, museums, etc., but at the same time became enraged when I told XH’s family and friends about the affair. These cheaters like to live dangerously, close to the edge, but at the same time don’t want to be exposed for all the world to see.

    • blue, you raise an interesting point. I wonder if they do “confuse” their high for “true love” or romantic feelings. I wonder if they have any frame of reference at all for anything other than the high. I know that less than 6 months before Jackass started up with his MOW, he was telling me I was his “true love.” They were only 90 days into their EA/PA or whatever when I caught him. She was whining about her broken heart on social media 6 weeks after that. I think when they use the word “love,” it means, literally, the feelings of excitement they get when starting a new clandestine affair, or receiving lots of kibbles from some situation. Let me tell you it’s a giant step toward meh to understand that they can playact what looks like love but can’t sustain it. They are a different species, in terms of their emotional capacity. I’m convinced that dogs and cats can love, that animals can love their offstpring, but these disordered cheaters are missing that component from their makeup.

      • In my XH’s case the ‘high’ is the Deal. He falls in ‘love’ over and over again and can do it within a matter of days. He’s madly in love with one woman and true blue, often for years, until he finds some OW who he love bombs the hell out of and falls ‘madly in love’ with and then he’s off on his next Big Romp. These people run off with each other without knowing credit scores or what kind of socks the other ones wears within weeks. Because it’s Twu Luv dontcha know.
        And they all they they’re special until they find out they aren’t. This guy is incapable of bonding. No oxytocin?

  • My husband’s sicko behavior was a bit different. His mother treats him as HER spouse, she’s always been creepy physical with him, I’m an outsider. The ow (an EA he still swears) looked just like my MIL (her boss) and had had a weird thing going on with MIL’s now dead husband. So as I explained to dipshit, you and your very gross dead step father shared affections with the same woman – he got into bed with your mother afterwards, you got into bed with me, everyone lying to everyone – that’s sick sick sick. And the ow? She must have some weird thing for my MIL, to have been inappropriate with her husband, then her son. Do I need to hide my sons and nephew? She’d also been married to her husband’s brother before she cheated on him. Do you hear the dueling banjos cuing up? I’m called snobby when I say they are all like hillbillies, but I mean c’mon. Actually I’m not sure which of these jackasses gets the sicko crown, they’re all so deserving, so we’ll call it a 3 way tie (dead guy can’t be in the running), and they can share that creepy shit too. The best part is that my lousy relationships with all the mentioned parties has always been due to my judging them and not being accepting. Gag. Im going to run down the street screaming now.

    • nic – I’m so sorry you post was so awful what you’ve got throught but g’damn it – did I get a huge belly laugh out of it. It’s all nuts!

  • My ex came directly from sex with his OW to me crying and insisting on sex and reconciling. I fell for the bullshit tears, I really did not want to have sex but finally gave in. Not going to say how I am sure (TMI) that he came directly from her bed to mine, and I mean directly. I realized later what was wrong when I discovered the STI. That knowledge haunted me and disgusted me for a very long time. I know now he got some kind of sick thrill out of it. How many times had I told him over the years that the one thing I would never forgive was if he fucked someone else and fucked me? So he did it in the most egregious way he could find, a way guarantee to infect me too. Sick fucking bastard.

    • Now here is a textbook case of someone who absolutely intended to harm you. So sorry you were violated physically and emotionally by this sicko. But what a useful textbook example for all of us who know instinctively that the behavior was intended to hurt us (the lies, the gaslighting, the verbal abuse, the infidelity) but can’t believe that someone who said they loved us would intend the hurt and the humiliation.

    • Sorry ’bout that, Dat. Equal parts sick and gross.

      My ex SWORE during false reconciliation that she had NEVER been with an affair partner and me on the same day, and because the hopium level in my bloodstream was a google parts per million, I believed her and tried to take comfort (!?!?!?!?) in that fact. Looking back, it occurred to me: 1) WHY would I believe anything said by someone who admits to a double life of cheating with multiple partners over the course of many years? And 2) Who really cares? I mean, it’s not somehow “closer” to faithfulness to only fuck affair partners on the days when you don’t have sex with your spouse. It’s cheater logic, is all, Which, BTW, might be a great topic for CL in the future (“What idiotic rationales did your cheater give you for the “rightness” of their stupid decisions?”)

      • I tried looking at the calendar and W’s cell phone bill to see if she was at OM’s place the same days we had sex. I can almost guarantee it on several occasions. Until W moved out we were a 2-3 times a week couple and I know now she was at his place many of those times. From what I understand she always had sex with him each visit… because it had been such a long time since he was in a real relationship.

    • Yes that type of behavior is deliberate and sick. That is a this is who they really are moment.

      My ExH once came home from work with his OW’s crotch juices on his mouth and let me kiss him. When I caught a whiff and asked him what was that smell, he lied and said he had a hoagie. I bet he had a real good chuckle at my expense that day.

      • ThatGirl…I hope you took him for everything you could after that. WTF? Really? He made you smell that? I can’t even imagine some of these stories. I thought my asshole XH was a cock schmooch but he almost sounds like Prince Charming compared to this sadist. Mine fucked and left.

  • Yeah, the other day’s post got me thinking about that too. I have pretty solid evidence he took her at our house and cottage. Several times. She probably borrowed some of my stuff there. It’s totally discusting and I feel violated.

    What really bothers me is that I’m six months post divorce. I have known this for quite some time and somehow I blocked it from my mind until last week. It’ been a year since I left. The whole year was just like that: epiphany after epiphany of horrible stuff.

    I don’t understand what happened to me. I have values, I’m educated, I’m tough, but I could’nt deal with that kind of betrayal so I just… forgot??? Honestly, It’s scaring me that my own mind is such an unsafe place…. I’m afraid it’s going to happen again.

    • When my ex nearly put my head through a wall and I defended myself, those minutes were 100% blacked out of my mind. My blocking that memory, in real time was a key reason my ex was able to get me arrested that night. I literally didn’t remember he was about to maim or kill me. It took a skilled hypnotherapist to give the memory back to me, reliving that memory was horrific but I needed to know. I probably should have let it come back on it’s own but I couldn’t move on without knowing. When I asked my therapist what the hell was up with that, she told me my subconscious mind was trying to protect me from the pain of the betrayal. I told her my subconscious is an asshole! I can (almost) laugh at that now…so yes, your subconscious does try to protect you. Don’t be scared, you get those memories back when you can handle them.

    • I’m no therapist, but it sounds to me like you’ve experienced massive trauma and blocked some of it out. When I was 12, my mother stopped talking to me. My memory is that it went on for months and months. Now I can recall how awful that felt, how I kept thinking “now she has to talk to me” only to find out that she wouldn’t. How would a person forget that? But once the silent treatment was over, I blocked that out for 20 years, until another event triggered a flashback (the horror of PTSD). I was actually in a therapy group when I had the flashback, which started to open up a lot of other memories that needed to be faced and put away appropriately. If you find a highly competent therapist, you can do the work of surfacing these memories. It has nothing to do with what kind of person you are or that your mind is “unsafe.” The mind, like the body, will try to protect you. You had “epiphany after epiphany of horrible stuff.” Just as you would go to rehab for a physical injury, you can go to a good therapist to work through a traumatic experience. For me PTSD is a lifetime deal. My insurance provider sent me to one of their psychiatrists for an eval to see whether they should continue to pay my therapist. Their shrink said I would probably need therapy for the rest of my life. And of course, they won’t pay, in spite of that eval. But to me, it’s worth it. I just keep peeling back each new layer as I learn more about myself and how to live the great big life I am determined to have. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’ve been run over by the crazy train. Now–recovery.

    • chump indeed, I don’t think your mind is an unsafe place. I do think that “forgetting” some of this is part your body’s natural defense mechanisms. I really believe that. I have gone through some stuff (this particular stuff does not involve my h’s adultery) where upon looking back it seems like I was a bit removed from the seriousness, the gravity of what I was dealing with. I understood things, but it seemed I was “away from the closeness of the situation”. I have come to really believe that this was a defense mechanism at work that allowed me to do what I had to do and not just stumble through the days. I really believe having this strange distance helped me to not be overwhelmed.
      This is what I think has happened with you. Don’t be scared. It’s just that now you might be in a better place to deal with this.

    • Chump indeed, I’m doing the same thing. I’m in a weird denial, almost. I have to remind myself quite often of what he did because I find myself “forgetting” it.

      It’s made worse by the fact that I am still attracted to him and that he is now being kind to me. (Not in an attempt to get me back, he’s just finally being decent.)

      • ML….I’ve been reading your posts here for weeks and I don’t think for one minute your XH is a decent guy. Please don’t fall for his shit. It’s all pretend make believe. He’s not FINALLY being decent. A person doesn’t do what he did to you and ‘finally’ decide to be decent. It’s some kind of con game again. He must not be done with you. Go NC and stay that way. You’ve come this far.

        • Syringa, great comment. ML, the only decency in this equation is your own. NC really is the only way, especially if you don’t have kids together. Sending you strength and hugs.

        • Thank you, Syringa. It’s weird how getting a kick in the butt from you guys actually feels good. My own judgement is still quite off at times. It’s good to hear the truth from others.

          Can’t go NC until his lawsuit is over because half of that money will go to me. It’s the ONLY way I have to get back on my feet. That said, there’s really no reason for me to spend more than a couple of minutes a week talking to him to touch base.

      • ML, he is being decent because he has got what he wanted, and you are no longer of use. He has his citizenship rights, and your money.

        What’s there not to like?

        • Yes, Patsy, he’d love it if we were to become “good friends” and put all this nastiness behind us. I won’t do that because it lessens what he did to me.

          I think he’s primarily being nice to me right now because he needs me to win his lawsuit. When it’s over, he’ll show his true colors again.

    • I haven’t forgotten anything he did to me . . . but I notice for some reason in the mornings I have the sadz over it. It’s almost as if my brain forgot the last horrible 8 months and I have to wake up and remember it all over again. Once I’m completely awake I’m OK, but I’m really looking forward to the day that this doesn’t happen anymore.

      I actually sit on the edge of my bed and say, “Yes RK, he’s a rotten cheating fuck. No, RK, it doesn’t matter if you thought you had good times. Yes RK, keep moving forward.”

      • That’s a huge part of grieving–the waking up and recalling that the world we though we lived in is forever altered. And remember–as CL says it’s your history, too. You did have good times, because the one with the capacity for love and joy was you. Your good times are no less real because he can’t experience that stuff the way you do. And the day will come when morning is a joy again.

      • omg, RK, I say the same thing! Except I say, “Yes, ML, he’s a rotten cheating fuck. No, ML, it doesn’t matter if you thought you had good times. Yes, ML, keep moving forward.”

        No kidding!


        • At least it’s not as bad as it was in the beginning. Now I’m not immobilized by it. Before it would just floor me each morning and I’d have to put a cold washcloth on my eyes for a couple minutes so I wouldn’t look all puffy faced when I got to work. Now I get a little sad, but I still keep moving and after the initial icky feeling for a couple minutes, I’m pretty good.

          I’ve internalized that he sucks so much that I don’t really cry over it anymore. I’ve actually tried to squeeze out some tears but my brain wouldn’t let me. She’d say, “Nope. He doesn’t deserve those. Save it for something or someone who matters.”

          I talk to myself a lot. 😉

      • I’m really relating to your posts today, Rumblekitty. When I first open my eyes in the mornings, for a few seconds anyway, it’s all good. Then my new reality comes crashing into my consciousness and I feel overwhelmed with grief, sadness and emptiness. I have to force myself to get out of bed, get the dogs outside and fed. Usually by the time I’ve exercised and showered for work I feel much better but honestly…sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever feel like me again!

        • You will. I mean there’s a huge difference in how I am now compared to how I was. The more time goes by, the better I feel. I know I won’t be healed overnight so, I try to just roll with it. We have those things called “feelings” unlike the hyenas.

      • Me three! Yes, RB, he did do that, no RB, that wasn’t true, yes, RB, he is a pathological manipulative creep.

        I think it is important for me to continue feeling the grief and rage at the moment because STBX continues to send me text messages and emails telling me how much he regrets his behaviour, how sorry he is for hurting me, how he wishes he had never lied to me and how he doesn’t know who or what he has become. It is difficult not to get sucked into it sometimes, but then I find out about another fucked up thing he is doing (having the skank sleep over at his house while my son retreats to his bedroom and refuses to come out the whole time she is there) and it reminds me that all of his apologies and regret are pure manipulative image-control.

        • Can you change your number or block him? I would hate that shit.

          • RK – we share custody of one of our children so I do need to be able to contact him in an emergency and vice versa. The I’m So Sorry Etc messages don’t get to me as much now – I used to want to believe them but now I run everything through my bullshit translator and I know he is:

            a) trawling for kibbles in the form of sympathy
            b) trying to maintain his image as a Good Bloke
            c) wants something from me
            d) trying to keep me in play in case the hyena-skank starts cheating on him
            e) seeking more drama as their life together is not so exciting now that both their spouses have kicked them out and they are no longer star-crossed-lovers-who-are-prevented-by-cruel-fate-from-being-together
            f) all of the above

      • I love reading your posts RK and get a large charge out of you. I know how hard it is to be okay after this shit. I can just tell you’re a good person and I’m sorry that we’ve had to live this shit show. I still get the sadz too and it’s been way longer than a year. I’ve yet to meet another partner and the odds are getting longer every day. My roof is leaking and the deck needs replaced and I wonder how I’m going to afford these major repairs. I get so pissed that my XH left me old to figure this shit out all by myself. I mean why didn’t he leave me when I was 35….when I stood a pretty good chance of finding a new partner?
        The only thing I know what to do is forge on as ForgeOn says and do the best I can and be as happy as I can be. And hey, I live in Washington and the fun stores opened last week. Haha! Always something to be happy about.

        • Can I make a tiny suggestion? If you do nothing else, stop thinking about finding anybody and focus just on you. What does Syringa like? What makes YOU happy? If you’re like me, you really have to think about that at first. I really couldn’t focus on anything because I’d get hung up on thinking, “I’ll never find anybody so what’s the point.”

          I found a few things that I’m pretty amped about. One dream in particular was one I had when Asshole was still around and I almost ditched it after he left. Then I thought, fuck it, I’m doing it anyway. There’s no reason we are not equipped to have happy lives on our own, and I don’t think anybody finds a mate if they think the HAVE to be with someone to be complete. So first thing, you’re fine on your own. You really are. I’m pushing 50. Menfolk aren’t even on my radar right now, though I love them and think it might happen one day. :).

          Second suggestion . . . Look up Habitat for Humanity in your area. Maybe they can help you out. Don’t get stressed over that stuff, it’s just a house. I need a roof too, and a number of other things I don’t care to stress over. It does me no good to worry about it, I just try to figure out ways to improve what I can. It’s more difficult after my household income went down over 50%, but fuck it, I’m doing it. :). I’d much rather be where I’m at right now than live with a liar. Life is good because it’s mine and I’m free of the bullshit. Wooo!

            • RK…I’ve been single seven long years and learned to be so dang resourceful. Habitat is not going to help me. I make too much money. haha. (I’m a rich school teacher)
              I’m getting bids this week for a new roof and I’ll start saving until I can pay cash. I hired a guy to come and smear some goop on the roof until then. Good old Goober Goop!! What a life saver for poor single women every where! Goober Goop!!

              • That’s what I basically had done to a leaky part of my roof too. I had a friend put a tar patch on a bad spot and it’s gonna have to hold for at least a year so I keep my fingers crossed. 🙂 Every month or so I crawl into the attic to make sure its still holding lol. So far so good . . .

          • Great suggestions, Rumblekitty. I’ve finally started to be really happy on my own, after a year. I was scared to death about the money end of things, at 62, but I have a little 403B account (401K for non-profits employees) and I’ve tapped it to do essential things because I see my house as my real retirement. Luckily, I will be able to work in my profession well into my 70s, if I stay healthy. But I’ve decided not to worry. Just live. I wrote a list of what I wanted for myself in January and first item was a kind man. I wouldn’t run if one turned up, but now I am so busy with work, the yard and gardens, and other stuff, I just don’t think about getting into a relationship. The other great part about that is as I find solutions to problems and do things to make me happy, my confidence and self-respect grow deeper. I know that I can handle things.

            One thing to think about if there is a lot of work to be done on the house is seeing if you can refi at a decent rate and take a bit of equity when you do to cover those big ticket items. Sometimes, if you refi for 15 years instead of 30, you save enough on interest to make taking out a bit of equity a wash. You might be able to get a few extra years out of the roof with just repairs or new shingles. It might be worthwhile to get referrals for good roofers and then ask them if repairs could extend the roof’s life. My furnace is getting old but my HVAC guy figured a new motor could get me through a few more years and I can start putting some $ aside for that repair. Getting estimates for stuff is a good way to learn more without having to lay out money. But for sure, I totally understand how hard it is to face this stuff with no safety net, and no rope to make one. But as Rumblekitty would say, doing that stuff can give us the fabled lady boner!

            • I’m not sure I really want to date seriously yet. I’m not afraid, but honestly I’m really liking having my life my own again. I like doing what I want on the weekends; if I want to sleep till noon, I can. If I want to watch my shows on Netflix all day and play games on my computer, I can. My house and garden would have me busy with projects till the end of time if that’s what I want. I feel like I’d be a horrible girlfriend right now because I just want to focus on me.

    • Thanks you all for your replies. It’s nice to know that I’m not the only one experiencing this.

      I’m glad I’m out, but this year has been an emotional roller coaster for reasons I never expected. None of what is hurting me now were reasons why I finally filed. It’s weird to realise that the reasons I had at the time were the proverbial three hidding the forest in my mind…

      Thanks again chump nation!

    • chump indeed – I look back at SO many things today. That I laughed off then. His 20 yr class reunion? Came home w/o skivvy’s on – said he was cooking eggs with his h/s friends until 5am (45 yr olds stay up that late?). Totally believed it and his entire family laughed about it over breakfast the next morning.
      (here I am saying, God – what a red flag this many yrs later)

      Then, the ‘biz partner’ he went on many trips down south with. Til she committed Hari Kari. Oh! The neighbor. Jeez, that was innocent until I was actually sitting at her kitchen (she was a great Italian cook) and started modeling her g-strings to Greg in front of me. Blatant. I must have missed something there.
      He’s like – hands up – can’t help it, she must be crazy (and she kind of was) also committed Hari Kari and rumor around town was H dumped her. It was too bizarre to believe.
      Just believe there is always truth to a rumor. I guess. (it’s called, you’re the last to know)
      I’m so mad at myself for missing a lot and as much as I’d like to think he only had this one ‘exit affair’, my gut tells me a whole different story and I believe my gut over anything now. That’s a pretty good lesson we were blessed with – gut instincts.

      I think when it all came down, it was the tip of an iceburg and I don’t want to know anymore about it. Fa la la.

      Good luck – ChumpIndeed – instincts and gut. Get to know them well. They are a gift.

    • Chump Indeed, I did the same thing, for years. When I sought help I was told that it is a form of Dissociation. It’s a coping mechanism, and completely normal, unless it begins to manifest in suppressing memories and you go on with the harmful situation.

      You’re not crazy and you’re not abnormal. Your mind is doing everything it can to protect you. But now that you understand the situation for what it is–abuse—you have to do something to protect YOURSELF.

  • My Cheater suggested to me that he and I start watching “House of Cards” on Netflix, during the summer of 2013. Every night we watched an episode of “our show,” as he referred to it; and every night after watching the Kevin Spacey character fucking the young little journalist and then go home to his unsuspecting wife, my Cheater would stand up from his recliner, say “Love you! Goodnight!” to me as I went upstairs.

    Then he would whip out his cell phone and start texting his OW, and they would text or sext or whatever, nightly, for hours while I slept upstairs preparing for my busy day at work the next day earning the money for the mortgage payment, the food, and even the cell phone that Cheater was using to text his OW. Wow, what an exciting life!!! I hope he likes it now, so exciting!! a year later, he has no place to live, spends half his time in the OW’s house that is up for sale, and the other half in the home of the “friends” that are the only two people I’m aware of who feel sorry for him after I threw him out.

    SICK. He also did brag to me that he brought her here to our (my, paid for) house. In shock, back then on D-day a year ago, I asked him in horror, were you and she discussing “us” or me, while you were standing in our bedroom… and he said, “Oh no the only thing she said about you, Muse, when standing in the bedroom was ‘where are all the girlie things?'” Now, I will never know whether this took place because so much of what he has said turned out to be utter lies. But WTF? Seriously?

    Seriously SICK.

    • “Where are all the girlie things?” I could seriously slap that bitch. Reading on this site is like a great grad school course in how sick people devalue those who love them and how their equally sick APs play out their side of the pick-me dance. And your X is beneath contempt.

    • TheMuse, so you paid for everything too? My CH used me that way too. He wasn’t even man enough to pay for his own survival, yet he thought he deserved cake and kibbles!

      • LovedaJackass, I don’t even really think she said that. I don’t even really think she was here in our house. He’s a sadistic pathological liar. He makes things up on the spot just to be cruel and apparently, making me feel “unfeminine” was the best he could come up with hence “where are all the girlie things?” Over the past year, more and more layers of the putrefied rotten onion have peeled away and I now know he was cheating on me from day One. of 16 years, that yes, Linda2, I was financially supporting him while he was cheating and verbally and sexually abusing me. Sadz, indeed!!!

    • The Muse – hand up, relating big time to this. H was so into Mad Men he bought all the episodes and watched them over and over again. Also, loved House of Cards. I hated the latter and tried to watch the former but I didn’t like the way H liked both shows so much, like an obsession. (repeats – give me a break, it’s tv) All that cheating he resonated with. Maybe it inspired him! Stud that he is.. He wanted to be Don Draper – or James Bond…made the martinis just the right way, had the wife – had the mistress….you know, BIG MAN.
      I can so relate to their t.v. watching. I’m a documentary person so maybe after 35 yrs we weren’t really connected then, huh?

      • The TV watching thing is weirding me out after reading your comments. I’ve always felt asshat intensely ID’d with fictional TV characters. Like having an emotional relationship with an fictional person.

        His love for some shows was and is INTENSE. Yeah, I believe he thinks he’s so Don Draper. I know he and OW both are heavy TV watchers. I’m not. Never have been. Too much stupid stuff on every channel. That was a big connector between his LT affair vs his random fucks.

        Just learned over this past week too in passing that OW’s interest in “literature” – 50 Shades of Grey- were acted out by them. Don’t get me going on how this shit came up. But I basically said, NO FUCKING SURPRISE: two idiots with the collective IQ of 4 whose great bonding occurs over soft porn, hard porn would indeed reenact scences from that classic novel.

        So take the lowest mental denominator, find a skankable partner and start living your ultimate fantasy life based upon FICTIONAL characters.

  • Yes, definitely describes my STBX. When I asked if he just assumed I would keep forgiving him over and over, he said “well obviously I thought you’d never find out!”. As far as getting off on the double life, oh yeah. He would tell AP’s that we were separated in order to “get them on the hook.” He made them fall in love with him and promised marriage and children in the future, and then told me: “No! I never actually intended to do that! I would never divorce you! I need you, I couldn’t live without you!” When asked if he ever right about their feelings, no response. And yes to secret sexual encounters in our car.

    As far as public humiliation, check! Because he never mention he was married to his professional colleagues so that he could have an affair with a peer, when I did meet someone, he wouldn’t introduce me or they’d look at me confused and say “you must be newlyweds?” The icing on the cake of humiliation: after D-Day, she donated to an online kickstarter campaign to help with cost to record his new album. At the level she donated, she received a song of her choice covered by STBX. His recording studio was in our house, so I had to hear him recording a song for (one of) the OW for weeks. It didn’t occur to him how degrading this was to me, it was just another way to show me I wasn’t the boss of him. Yeah….a special kind of f-ed up.

    • So funny that he said “I need you.” My Cheater told one of his OW that he couldn’t leave me because my kids needed him! Him who provided no financial support for me or my kids! On D-day, I was so devastated I begged him to stay with me anyway, and still have his fling with OW, and he said “No, Muse, I already ran the sharing idea by her and she wouldn’t go for that.” And “I was arguing with her! I am fiercel
      ey loyal to you, Muse! I told her I couldn’t leave you because YOU NEEDED ME.” Pretty obvious he flipped that around, as it’s clear he needed ME, for $$$$ and kibbles.

      • God Muse – that last post just blows me away and I think it’ll take a day or 2 to recover. Just, wow.

  • My ex is a passive-aggressive coward with mommy issues. I really believe he despised me, and so fucking the OW twat in our family truck and in secret motel rooms, and all the secret texting were his “fuck you, you’re not the boss of me” moments. He says it never happened in our bed, but then again, he’s a liar.

    And, of course, affair partners are like the basest of all creatures, lifting their legs to mark their territory, taking great delight in watching their filth seep into your life, unbeknownst to you–unless they are the especially cruel sociopaths who do it overtly, and delight in staring you right in the face as you realize you’re being stolen from, and they know that you know there’s not a damn thing you can do about it.

    • Miss Sunshine – and then they follow up all that basest of creatures (like after they fart) with a big fat smirk. I’ll just never forget the fucking smirks. My bitch just pissed all over your bitch things. Have anything to say? smirk

  • Transgressive behavior by my ex? Yeah, had some of that. For instance, fucking at least one and likely two of my groomsmen (including my “best man”), fucking her boss (in his marital bed and in my car) and accepting gifts from him for our youngest son, having me aggressively negotiate her buyout from a company she co-founded even though she was being kicked out for dragging her extra-marital affairs (still unknown to me) into the workplace.

    But I think her Magnum Opus Mind-Fuck was sending one long time affair partner to me for free advice about his teenage son’s drug arrest (I’m a lawyer). That was her perfect triangle of cheater sadism: I was duped into assisting her affair partner and championing his cause, and he was forced to accept guidance from his mistress’s more-knowledgeable husband about how to fix his fucked up family situation. I’m sure her drawers were damp with the thrill of it for several weeks running. As CL said, it’s good to be puppet master.

    Yup, the woman had more issues than *The National Geographic* (or *The National Enquirer*).

    • Once again, nomar, thanks for adding to Chump Nation’s lexicon: “Transgressive behavior.” “Magnum Opus Mind-Fuck.” And–for the win: “the perfect triangle of cheater sadism.” I read on a local blog where the blogger has a “lexicon” post. Once CL has a chance to catch her breath post-publication, it would be nice to start keeping a list of these gems, with exemplars, as posters tend to come and go.

    • Jeeze-oh-hell-oh-bells Nomar….I am so sorry you got stuck with this crazy mean ass bitch.

  • CL, I think the info about people playing cards and some people not being able to see past the play in their hands is an interesting one. My ex seemed to have some pretty delusional ideas about the ramifications of his actions. He truly believed we would still be great friends and do things as a family. It’s like he had no emotional understanding of how his betrayal would affect me. Even my oldest son said “Dad doesn’t seem to have a clue about how these things go.”

    So many people have told me my ex would be sorry and regret what he’s done. I’ve never believed this. He didn’t even grieve over the deaths of his grandparents, or seem very emotionally connected to his parents. Once I asked him if he ever thought about his grandparents after they passed and he said “No.” On the other hand, I grieved my grandmother’s passing for years! My ex’s motto towards relationships seemed to be “out of sight, out of mind.”

    • Weird. When my ex’s grandparents were dying I kept encouraging him to visit them. We actually had an argument about this because he flat out refused. They died, he went to the funerals and they were rarely mentioned again. Very, very odd.

      • My wife was very reluctant to visit her mother in hospital, not at first, but when it became obvious she was actually dying. She visited her the day before she died — the hospital called and asked her to, but it was the first time in a week.

        • Another weird thing was the day 911 happened. People were closing shop early, leaving work, generally wanting to be with their loved ones during the trauma. On that day I was at home with a sick child and I wanted so much to connect with family. My ex didn’t call, and ended up working late that day. The thing that most upset him about 911 was that the football games were canceled for a week. I thought his reaction was so strange. I tried to communicate how upset I felt after 911, how I felt our country had permanently changed, and he kind of chuckled like he thought I was being overly dramatic.

          • Good grief, Lyn. I can relate to this behavior so much. My H never reacted to all the terrorists things that happened in this country like I did. (don’t need to mention them, we all know them). I had t.v. obsessively on, bawling…and he was looking at graphs on computer. But, 9/11 stood out particularly. He was out of the country with his mom in England – I was home alone (US). When I finally got hold of him in my panic like we were all experiencing he actually only said, “See, I told you this would happen. We’re in 487 countries messing w/them”. And he implied it was something our country did wrong. I was completely floored then and that one stays with me. He had no concept of what it meant to me/us, the country. I dunno – weird. Don’t talk to me about Waco…

        • My STBX was with the OW, supposedly on a work-related trip when his father was dying. I called him and told him he should leave immediately, but he said he wouldn’t since he had seen his father within the month. I thought his hesitation was because he was afraid to be with him in his last days, but now I know he didn’t go because he was with the OW. In the previous months when his father was ill, he visited him for a few days, but then took vacations with the OW – of course I thought he was with his father. He used his ill father as a cover to vacation with her. A decent woman would want him to be with his father so she is so self-centered too. They are made for each other.

            • The sad thing is my daughter is the same way as he is. A complete lack of empathy. I wonder if it’s hereditary? It’s something that bothers me. A lot. To see one of my children with one of HIS traits. *ouch*

              • It does run in families as Narcissists/Sociopaths breed & proliferate their mindset to their kith & kin. I have seen it firsthand & was appalled at the levels they go too keep the family secret of disgusting behavior.
                The fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree that’s for certain in my view!

              • What’s modeled in families tends to be repeated. This is a FACT with asshat and ALL of his family members.

                That’s absolutely why I had him tell every fucking single family member about what he IS with me present. Every.Single.Brother has cheated on their spouse. SIL blatantly stated she keeps her head in the sand. MIL is supreme splackling chump who told me to stay in this marriage because she thinks ” the bones are good”. What’s good are the excellent manipulation and mindfuck techniques employed by her children along with a dose of sociopathy to make it thrilling.

                I am seriously beginning to consider therapy for my kids after witnessing their father treat me like shit for their entire lives and me believing his bullshit abuse.

              • @ ANC
                This is true in my case as well. X’s family was a big pack of hyenas too. Every one in his immediate family cheated and doesn’t really see anything wrong with it since they all do it. Mom and Dad cheated, the kids helped cover for them and even became involved in some of mom’s crazy antics with her OM. I could go on an on . . .

                I remember as I started finding out about them, I really got the creeps. When I think back, this was when I began to worry about what this fucker was capable of with me. Gut was screaming, and my gut was right.

    • Me too for these:
      “My ex seemed to have some pretty delusional ideas about the ramifications of his actions….It’s like he had no emotional understanding of how his betrayal would affect me.”

      Though I would add, my ex seemed to be surprised by how it affected everyone, and I still don’t think he realizes the far-reaching ramifications.


      “My ex’s motto towards relationships seemed to be “out of sight, out of mind.””

      I have come to realize that I think my ex’s mind is like a dry-erase board, and the new person (OW) wiped out our history completely. Immediately. Right after dday, he was unable to remember some basic things about me. It was really weird, and I worried for a while he had something wrong with his brain… Then I realized he just couldn’t be bothered to waste energy remembering things that no longer served him.

      • Northern Light – that comment completely resonated with me. Thank you.

      • My ex also seems very surprised not just by the ramifications but also by how it doesn’t just go away in a few weeks or months. At one point we were talking on the phone about some financial stuff and got into an argument (he was screwing me over as usual). It devolved into a shouting match about what happened and what I was slowly finding out. His response? ‘It’s been four months! Why aren’t you over this?’. We had been together for 20 years and I had found out he’d been screwing around for years and I was facing complete financial ruin but hey! Four months! Get over it!

        His reaction has remained similar towards the kids and anyone else who ‘isn’t over it’. Something wrong with the people who got hurt, nothing with him or his choices. He doesn’t seem able to understand why quite a few people want nothing to do with him and have written him out of their lives due to his choices and actions. I used to think he was just tone deaf. Now I think he’s simply fucked up.

        • Nord, I relate to not “getting over it” fast enough. My MIL was pressing me to “move on with my life” just a month or so after D-day. She had been through divorce with several of her other kids and was acting like she knew all about it and how I should handle it. I told her she might have been around divorce, but she hadn’t experienced it, so she didn’t know what she was talking about. She was truly shocked that I was so upset. Of course I think her son had told her our marriage had been over for YEARS She actually said “it’s all okay because he’s going to split his retirement with you.” Gee thanks, what a generous gift. It was beside the point that the LAW would have made him split his retirement with me whether he wanted to or not.

  • There are many ways our cheater/sickos get off on humiliating us. Besides his affairs, my h’s other most favorite way is that he has withheld sex/ intimacy from me for years. Talk about humiliating and painful. I would go to him crying about how we had to fix that part of our marriage. Now I know that he was totally getting off on that.

    • I too know about sex withholding, mine couldn’t “finish” for years, so of course what was the point of sex if HE couldn’t totally get off. He would try pills every so often and that didn’t work, his issue was not physical, it was mental.

    • I remember those periods of time and trying to talk to him about it but him refusing and somehow making me feel like there was something wrong with me.

      • Nord – I’m finding this subject of withholding sex to be quite large out there. It is definitely rather common? and a form of abuse to a chump. I’d like to see more light brought to this topic. (I’d speak up first!) I had never heard of Emotional/Sexual Anorexia before, but, it’s a real condition. Thanks to Martha – wherever you are here!

        • That would be an interesting discussion. I was embarrassed by the times when ex wasn’t having sex with me. The first time it happened I was so busy with kids, etc. that it kind of crept up on me, the noticing that we weren’t really getting it on very much. When I brought it up to him he was very weird about it. I know now that he was having an affair during that time. Then it came and went and although I tried to talk to him about it I tried less and less as time went on, chalking it up to the ebb and flow of a marriage. Silly me.

          • I, too, would welcome a post on this topic, which is painful and humiliating to say the very least and yet the discussion is so very central to our healing. Sexual rejection. How much worse can it get, since it subsumes most other kinds of rejection as well?

            • I have learned ( the hard way) that men who are addicted to porn quite often stop having sex with their partners or have ED problems. So between the affair partner and on line porn, the spouse is alienated from a normal sex life. Giant red flag!

        • Asshat told me that he was no longer going to touch me. He was withholding all forms of physical contact to replace the silent treatment he usually gave me. This was years ago. Contact includes hugs, touching, caressing, hand holding etc… All Forms.

          You know what, I blacked that out. Actually mentally spackled that out of me head. Too painful. I remember now. Yes. This IS abuse. Very childish. And he DID it for the past 10 yrs!

          Now he wants the R and all the physical stuff associated with a real relationship. What I know is that I can truly say my relationship with him has been over and done for decades. I’m NOT crazy to feel this way or say it. I sensed it. He stated it. It is a relief to know that my attempts to have a marriage were based on his crazy, not mine.

    • The Jackass loved this particular tool in the cheater sicko toolbox. He used it to end his first marriage (or so I think, since he is upfront that he withheld sex on the honeymoon with that poor girl). And I have my own sad experiences with that once he started up with MOW. That’s another reason why I think it’s not all about sex. It’s power, control, humiliation, and “you’re not the boss of me.”

      • My wife withheld sex on our honeymoon. You’d think I would have taken that as a sign, but no.

        • I asked Jackass over and over why his first marriage failed. Having been divorced myself, I did big post-mortems on my own contributions to the marriage ending (usually concluding that knowingly marrying an alcoholic was at the root of the problem, Ms. Codependent….) but he had nothing to say about that marriage beyond that story. That behavior seems to me to be a big power move, a cruel sort of rejection that puts the one doing the rejecting in the driver’s seat, forever. “Cross me and I will cut out your heart.” My X (the drinker, not the cheater) denied sex on the honeymoon in another way–being too drunk for it. It’s not as cruel, just hugely selfish. You deserve so much better than this. And so do I and our Chump Nation friends.

          • “a cruel sort of rejection that puts the one doing the rejecting in the driver’s seat, forever”

            You got that right, LAJ. And it really worked — that was 13 years ago and I haven’t told anyone that until now. It seemed like my shame to carry, AND I didn’t want to cross her.

            • There you go. Let me tell you, from me and from Jackass’s first wife, who’ve been there, done that: it wasn’t you. It takes a very screwed up person to rob her new husband of that special time. It wasn’t you. It was her.

              • Echo’s right, ANR: it’s not your shame to bear. Yet, I totally get what you mean.

          • ANR – you got off fairly easy. I went from honeymoon of him w/holding sex to 35 yrs later. Boy, should have got off that train a long time ago. But, he just wanted bj’s or hjs. (sorry tmi) but it makes you really ask yourself why you gave up so much of your sexuality for this marriage. I’m really knocking my head on the desk here. over…and over..

      • My cheating Ex never withheld sex until about two weeks before D-day when he suddenly claimed I was snoring so loudly that he needed to sleep in the guest room. Prior to that we had plenty of sex, always the way he wanted it. After D-Day, I did the Pick me dance so intently that I came right out and begged him to fuck me. His response, like a cold Robot: “No, that would not be fair to all parties.” WTF? Then he elaborated, “OW said she wouldn’t mind and that she understood ‘it might still happen’ but I don’t think it would be fair to her.”

        • Oh, awesome. By all means, let’s be mindful of fairness issues as they apply to skanky OW! I’d laugh if it weren’t so disgusting. Talk about an oxymoron! “It wouldn’t be fair to her.”

          Muse, this just makes my heart ache for you.

  • I still find it hard to believe that my wife meant to hurt me by her contemptuous behaviour – mostly because I really don’t want to admit that the person I gave my life to could be so low. But the fact remains that, beside suggesting that I do work for her AP (her boss), and that I take a course his business offered where he was one of the instructors, and asking me to go to innumerable company functions (including at his house) where he and I talked and where his chumped wife was also present (as were other members of my family and, occasionally, my children), she also used me as a sounding board for her concerns about him. I heard about his health woes, about his business problems, about her suspicions that he might have had an affair in the past or be having one now.
    And that’s just me. On his side, he had no problem having my wife work together with his wife on an audit for a major client. And my wife had no problem that this lovely, duped woman took her to lunch, welcomed her into her home, and just generally was a good friend to her.
    I accept that the AP is a dirtbag. But if anyone has any alternate explanation for my wife’s behaviour I’d appreciate it hearing it. This shit is killing me.

    • Oh, ANR, I’m so sorry.

      Trying to find an explanation for their behavior is nearly impossible.

      That’s why we have to trust that they suck.

      My heart breaks for you.

      • Thanks, ML. I try telling myself that maybe she’s not malicious, just an idiot. But you know, she’s not an idiot. She’s very, very bright — they both are.

        • ANR, my ex got involved with his former grad student, who is married. He wanted us to be friends with them, to do things as couples. I started to feel very uncomfortable about his relationship with her and flat out refused to socialize with them anymore. I asked my counselor if my decision to stop socializing with this woman and her husband drove my ex into her arms. Her response was, “I think you were doing a good job of trying to protect yourself.”

          My ex also insisted we invite this woman to my son’s wedding. I’d looked forward to dancing at the wedding for weeks, but my ex got disgusted that I couldn’t do a particular dance move he wanted to do right away and next thing I knew he was dancing with her. I felt humiliated, but I was determined not to let his behavior ruin my son’s wedding, so I stuffed down my feelings. This woman was there with her husband and children, so on the surface it looked normal to everyone else. No one even noticed, but I was in tears after the reception. I blamed it on being tired. I knew there was no point in trying to explain to him how it made me feel.

          I wish I could tell you I knew what our exes are thinking when they’re doing stuff like this. It probably boils down to the fact that they don’t have a conscience. They just don’t feel guilty because they don’t feel connection.

          • It’s either that or that she wanted to punish me for something. I may never know, and I guess, really, it doesn’t change what I need to do one way or the other.

            • I’d say (courtesy of my therapist) that idea of punishment is not helpful, as it gets you to thinking what you did to displease her and deserve punishment, other than to reveal what’s at the heart of her agenda. We aren’t naughty children. We are adults in adult relationships, equals. We don’t punish our equals. We talk and communicate and figure things out. I’m thinking that this punishment idea reflects how well she exerts control and displays power with you and probably others.

              • Yeah, I’ve got very used to being punished, usually with the offence being unspoken. Fits of anger, silent treatment, continual small putdowns, you name it. And, with suitable modifications, she acts in a similar way with other people close to her.

            • ANR, you sound like I did when I was still in shock. I logged 20 years with my wife, and I was committed to the marriage and loved her deeply.

              I hope you can get to the point where you’re not wasting too many brain cycles trying to figure out what she was thinking. You will never really know and in the long run it does not matter. A long time ago she bailed on you. It was her incredibly shitty choice and says more about her than you. You, my friend, are tougher than you think you are because you have actually been surviving alone for awhile.

              This is really a difficult time and my heart goes out to you.

              • Thanks, Chumpion, I’m embarrassed to say that my DDay (unusually, she confessed, out of nowhere, during the course of an argument, presumably to make me feel bad) was 15 months ago.

            • ANR….punish you for what honey? Don’t even try to unravel that skein as CL tells us. What on earth could you have done that was so terrible that that is how she chose to punish you? Absolutely nothing. These are disordered characters. No more. No less. When I was trying to unravel the skein going on forever with my best friend she finally sadly grabbed me by the shoulders and said, “Syringa, you’re swinging at a ghost.”

              • Hey CL…wouldn’t that be a good cartoon?? ‘Swinging at a Ghost?’ Boy Howdy, haven’t we all done that a little bit of that here at Chump Nation? My BFF is the funniest person I’ve ever met in my life. We’ve been BFF since we were 11. I talk to her twice a week and have never lost contact with her for a minute. Going on 45 years together. Now that’s a relationship. She’s the one that got me through this shit and fed me raisin bran at 3 am and talked me down from the ledge a few times. Everyone should have a best friend named Colleen.

              • You’re right, Syringa. It’s just pretty hard for me to see it that way sometimes. Maybe that’s why she picked me.

    • That’s so cruel ANR. Yeah the humiliation is really hard to swallow. I don’t have any answers except to say even though I am divorced now a few years, I still feel as though the OW is mocking me. She makes nasty snide remarks to my kids about me knowing they’ll be repeated back to me. It’s confusing for them, I hate it that my kids are even about the lying cheating ho but I have no control over that.

      I can only hope that someday things balance out and that she gets a taste of her own medicine as do all affair partners. The old karma bus has not arrived yet.

      • Don’t kid yourself! The Karma bus is permanently parked at the OW’s house! If she makes snide remarks about you to your kids then that means you are still very much a part of her mind! Just relish in that! She is STILL jealous of you and your children on some level! Trust me, it eats these socios like a cancer! I personally think they deserve it. And more if you ask me! Because if they had any confidence, self respect and self esteem then why would they feel the need to insult and demean you? You still represent a threat, that’s why!!

      • Tonya…you need to keep in mind that this is no doubt some home-wrecking skank, that NO ONE respects, talking bad about YOU? It’s laughable….she couldn’t possibly find a better way to demonstrate how much class and integrity she lacks. Personally, I hope she does continue to run her mouth….it reflects poorly on her, not you.

        • Tonya…some wise chump here said that the Karma bus might not park right in front of their house…..but make ‘little stops’ in front. Better yet.

    • ANR, I am sorry. Your wife may not have meant to hurt you. However, it seems pretty clear that she didn’t care enough to take you into consideration when she made her choices. It’s tough to deal with, grieve the person you loved. Think of that person as gone. It’s much easier to think of the AP as awful because you didn’t love that person. You can paint them with a wide brush because you have no skin in the game with them. I personally don’t think of my ex or his girlfriend as evil or entirely bad. They are both fucked up people who hurt others because they suffer from mental illness and are incapable of giving two shits about anyone else. I don’t think they know what love is, or means, they never will. They will spend the rest of their lives trying to fill up the hole in their souls with other people. I’m glad I am not like them, such a sad and awful way to live.

      • ANR, I share your feelings. I will never go back and I see the situation quite clearly now. I still cannot say he was doing it to hurt me. I think not.

        But like Dat says, he wasn’t thinking about me at all. That’s the point we have to remember because we know that for sure. Like a good cartesian, I call that thought “my cogito”.

        I still read here so I don’t forget.

        Hang in there,

      • Couldn’t have said it better myself. I thank God every day, that that isn’t me.

      • Yeah, it must be a sad and awful way to live. I wonder if the person I loved ever really existed outside of my own mind.

        • ANR, you said “Yeah, it must be a sad and awful way to live. I wonder if the person I loved ever really existed outside of my own mind.”

          I know this feeling, the way I came to terms with it is to decide it did not matter. My reality did not change, I experienced what I experienced. I felt loved for many years, whether my ex was wearing a mask or trying to be someone he wasn’t? Whether he changed at some point and Hid it? That really does not change my memories, my reality. I’m at peace with that aspect. Hope that might help.

          • I know! Let’s have a party at my place tonight! I have a great view of the lake. Flowers and trees everywhere. I feed the birds and squirrels. Lots of wildlife. We can forget where we’ve been and look to the future. Clink Clink anyone?

            • Oh, I would have loved a party, with a view of a lake! I feed the critters, too. Had a gorgeous hummingbird sipping at the blooms in my garden this morning. That’s what’s real.

              Drinking a toast to you as I write this.

              • I’ve been having a blast this summer. I’m a teacher so have some time off now. I’ve had people at my house every day for the past three weeks. Picking cherries. The trees are loaded. Hanging out on my deck. BBq’g. Listening to music. Drinks in hand. Fountains burbling… chatting it up with good friends….you’re all invited~!~ Good for the soul.

    • ANR your wife is an asshole, through and through. I have stories along those lines and yep, it’s really hard to wrap your head around the fact that someone could behave this horribly. But they can and they do. I*m really sorry. It sucks.

    • I wish I could give you an alternate explanation that would be comforting. I think the hardest question for me was “how could he love me and do these things?” The answer is not that he doesn’t love me; it’s that he has no idea what love is or how to do it and no motivation to try as his life revolves around kibbles. My mother was a narcissist. She became a “nicer” person on some levels when she developed dementia because all her energy went into faking “normalcy” for her own survival instead of mind-fucking people for fun. I used to visit her every Sunday and we spent hours walking around the facility, with her telling me how no-good her only daughter was, who never cared for her or visited. It was a very freeing thing, hearing the truth of how she saw me coming out of her demented mouth. And I was able to feel profound sadness and pity for her. It wasn’t about me at all; I was right there, as I always had been, but she wanted me to be able to fill up her insatiable need for kibbles. You and your wife are different kinds of people. You are smart, funny, loving, and loyal. She has some kind of disorder that has disabled her ability to love (defined minimally as “the ability to put another person’s basic needs ahead of your own wants”), to feel empathy, to live within civilized boundaries. Some are probably sadists, but others can’t see anything but their own needs; their partners are more like props in a play to them than real humans with lives and feelings of their own.

      Your wife and her boss sound like the “dyad” criminals, people who may have kept their impulses in check while on their own, but once meeting up with another disordered person, stepped out of civilized life and into their mutually reinforcing con artist bubble. Some of the cheaters and APs people are writing about in comments today seem to sink to a unbelievable lows once they get together. While an AP might want to have sex in the cheating spouse’s marital bed, some cheaters would decide that was a bad risk or would not push the betrayal and humiliation of a partner that far. The ones who get into these “We’ve got a secret” behaviors might just have found the perfect partners for their fuckedupedness. And thank God, you are nothing like them. I am sorry this is killing you. Every part of it sucks. But it sucks because you are normal, decent, loving, committed. And once you pull out of the quadrangle/triangle, both physically and mentially, the fun diminishes for them and the healing continues for you.

      • We have a lot in common, LAJ. My mother is also a narcissist with dementia. She’s not yet at the point where she doesn’t recognize me, so I hear her low opinion of me dead on a good half the times I visit her. She enjoys humiliating me in front of my family and the other patients in the facility.

        I don’t know about the “dyad” thing: I had Rick figured as a total asshole almost from the first time I met him. And, except for the audit job thing, pretty much all of the disgusting disrespectful behaviour to me was my wife’s — it’s not like Rick was going to stop having company functions, but my wife insisted on my going to them, when she knew I didn’t especially enjoy them. I wonder if it was part of a “pick me” dance she and Rick were doing. But yeah, I need to pull out. The affair is over, but my wife is still involved with Rick in a way because she’s suing him for recovery of $200k she lent him. Crazy shit, just crazy.

        • I’d say you should get out because you deserve a fine woman who will be your loving partner. Just sayin’.

      • Just a side note : I believe my Dad is a Narc. He is now in his 11 th year of full blown Alzhimer’s .
        The man he is now is a happy, sunny person who recognizes no one and who just lives life from one moment to the next,
        I have a better rationship with this version of my Father and have grown to love him very much.
        In a weird way it had given me some closure.
        I think he had a bit of an MLC and may have cheated on my Mom.
        But that ‘s all gone now.
        This is the person I will chose to remember as my Father.

    • Does it matter if you wife meant to hurt you or not? What she did was extremely hurtful and uncaring.

      • Can’t argue with you on that, diana. I guess it matters to me because not caring seems not as bad as deliberately humiliating me.

        • A narcissist deliberately humiliates, because they resent everyone because everything you do – or they perceive you doing – is a narcissistic insult. They punish and torture as a rule. A garden variety cheater may not set out to hurt you, they just don’t care. Things we’d never, ever do, are just par for the course in the la-la land they live in.

          There will come a time when the only thing that will matter is that they are completely messed up. Exactly how and why will be reduced to a pure intellectual exercise, and an item of curiosity. The first step to happily ever after is giving up the ghost. It gets easier every day.

          • I’m fascinated with the idea of evil and what makes someone evil. I think garden variety cheaters are immensely selfish, extraordinarily immature and extremely weak – but not evil. They have no moral compass but they aren’t deliberately hurtful. These are people who are not grounded in anything beyond their own impulses and who have bought in to the lizard brain entitlement philosophy that is ruining our society: “Life is about ME being happy” and “Winning means getting what I want, at any cost” and “Getting my needs met is the highest good” and “I’m so special that ordinary rules don’t apply to me” and “You (spouse, society, tradition, morality, committments, common decency, etc.) aren’t the boss of me!” This makes them pathetic assholes and certainly to be avoided at all costs – but I don’t think they are the chilling soulless ones, the “sickos” of this post who get a sadistic thrill from being malicious. Or the narcissists who are so without empathy that the pain of others makes absolutely no impression on them.

            I’m with ANR in that I think it is slightly better to believe that your cheater is just morally stunted than to think he/she deliberately wants to hurt and humiliate you. For those here who have had an encounter with someone truly evil, I am so incredibly sorry, and I hope that God is able to restore your life and heal the emotional damage. I can’t even imagine. For those who want a good description of what evil looks like, read “People of the Lie” by M. Scott Peck.

            • Lookingforwisdom…I like your post a lot. I never felt my XH was evil. Just a stupid dumb ass selfish entitled impulsive garden variety serial cheater incapable of true bonding and intimacy. I think of all the women he’s tried to be with he actually ‘loved’ me the most. He was more than fair in the divorce settlement and willingly helps me with major home repairs that come up occasionally. Last year he paid for my snow tires.
              I really feel sorry for some of my fellow chumps when I read here about the true evil monsters they ended up with. I’ll check out Scott Peck’s book. Years ago when I was a teenager I got pregnant by a monster and was fortunate to get away from him. I kept the child and she never knew her biological father. So I know these people exist.

              • My first cheating husband was, I think just really immature, addicted, and fucked up. Was he a narcissist? I don’t know….maybe or he had some narc tendencies. He certainly evolved into entitlement as a serial cheater.

                Now cheater hubby number two….well he was evil, just plain evil. As time went on it seemed he just got more and more into being evil to me just because he felt entitled to. The more I stood up to him and called him on his shit the worse he got. Thank goodness he was really stupid in most of his attempts to do me harm.

                But on two occasions he connected. The first was when he used violent rape to win an argument with me. (The first time in my life I ever was hysterical.) That made it easy for me to believe him when he told me that he was thinking about killing my children and myself, and then killing himself. I took my kids and got out. Got a restraining order. He divorced me. The court refused to let me protect my kids however. I could not get supervised visitation. The second connect was his kidnapping and killing my youngest son, and killing himself.

                Yeah some of them are evil. I read People Of The Lie…..Perfect description of my parents…..I’ve had a lot of FOO shit to unlearn.

                I will say one thing…If they enjoy your pain, deep down in their rotted souls….that’s evil in my book. No way to pretty it up, that is just plain evil.

  • My husband blamed my anxiety for ruining our relationship and told me to leave or he would. I left and made two suicide attempts and then after a month tried to go back to him. He was cold and heartless; it was as though he had been replaced by a total stranger.

    He played with my emotions by having me over a few times for post break up sex. I used those times to try to remind him of what he was missing and hoped he would take me back. I took pains to behave calmly so that he could see how I’ve “changed.”

    But after three months of his cold, unmoving behavior I finally got him to admit there was another woman, BUT he insists that she came into the picture after I moved out. Well, I’m not that stupid, since all the signs were there at least a month or two before I left, I just didn’t see them because, with all our problems, I just didn’t think he was a cheater.

    So he admitted there was someone else now occupying his heart and I stopped pursuing him because fucking someone else is a deal breaker for me. (Plus, I had asked him, while we were in the early stages to keep his dick in his pants until we knew where our separation was heading, and he said he would.)

    But since that time he does not allude to her in any way, which on the one hand I feel is almost respectful of me, and on the other hand it makes me feel she may or may not be in his life now, but he still doesn’t want me back.

    I know that sounds weird, that I’d care if he wants me back even while I know I don’t want him back, but that’s my ego talking.

    And I know this probably sounds even more weird, but I almost wish he had been more blatant and cruel in his cheating because then it’d be easier to feel he is a horrible man and not worthy of me in any way, shape, or form.

    The truth is, of course, that this isn’t a black and white situation. My husband isn’t the devil and I’m surely no angel. But sadly the cheating part isn’t even the worst of what he did to me. He used me to obtain US citizenship, he used me for my money, and when it ran out, he immediately ended the relationship. He’d NEVER admit to any of that, but those are the facts. The fact that he also, near the end, found another woman to fuck, is merely a side note.

    To be honest, I am glad he doesn’t flaunt her or talk about her. If I knew who she was and what she looked like, I’d be devastated all over again. I’m also eager for him to leave the area, as I fear going about my business and running into them. I actually fear I might collapse if I see them together.

    The bottom line is he’s not a good man nor an honest man, but he’s also not a serial cheater or the sort of man described in today’s post. I sometimes wish he had been, just so this whole decision would be made a bit easier.


    You can see that I am actually making excuses for him. I don’t really acknowledge that while he had me over for post break up sex, he was fucking someone else in our home, with all my possessions still there, with no condom for protection from her. So this is me being in denial, I guess — in the end, he really is a sicko.

    I’ve made great strides, but I still have a long way to go in this recovery.

    • Yes, ML, you are making excuses for him and he doesn’t deserve it. No, of course he’s not the devil, and of course he has good points (you wouldn’t have married and continued to support him otherwise), but overall he’s a lying, cheating, manipulative fuck who doesn’t deserve space in your head. I wish you all the best in your recovery — it seems to me, from your posts here and on your blog that you’re doing very well.

      • Thanks, ANR. I’m frustrated that my brain is working this way and wish I could just stay in indignant mode. I am ashamed that I can still speak kindly of him and make excuses for him after all he’s done to ruin my life. Overall, I am doing better and better, thanks for your support.

        • The problem with indignant mode is that being angry and outraged takes SO much out of you emotionally. That’s why it’s tempting to fall back into “it’s not so bad.” But we the time to give up anger is when it’s done its work of getting you out of a bad situation — then it’s time for “meh.” But I’m not one to talk, really. I’m still in the same house as my wife, for Pete’s sake.

          • “But I’m not one to talk, really. I’m still in the same house as my wife, for Pete’s sake.”

            Yep, so am I. That resonates with me. Still struggling to figure out how best to unsnare myself from three plus decades of what I had thought was a great marriage, that has been sledge hammered apart by w’s need to cheat (or for “more freedom” as she has put it). Or whether in the end it will simply prove to be cheaper to keep her.

            Haven’t had the truly sick stuff happen, but that’s only as far as I know. Seems like a pretty prevalent theme. Ugh.

            • Chumpguy, when you think of costs, you should think of the costs to your happiness and self-worth, not just the financial ones.

              • Absolutely. A big part of the decision calculus to be sure. No doubt that if finances were the only issue, it would be a no-brainer to simply hang in.

              • CG and ANR, no truer words have been spoken with your comments. After being with my STBXH for 20 years, I have had enough of the nightmare. In about a month I will be unemployed, nearly broke even on the sold house, and leaving the island I called home for more than 20 years. Leaving with only the clothes on my back, my car, and a few suitcases. No real direction, no income, but the freedom from all the bullshit is absolutely PRICELESS. No more being woke up to bullets being placed in my hand, no more bounced checks, no more retirement being cashed out behind my back to spend on the OW.
                ANR and CG, when you finally get to your point, and you will when you are ready, make sure the kids are taken care of and you will see that finances are nothing compared to your sanity!! I hope you get there soon then we can gather up all our chump friends and go get some beers, Michael can have a Pepsi–Happy hour prices of course.

          • Seriously guys, in both your cases someone needs to move out. The people who stick around and get chumped tend to be the conscientious types who rely on careful planning to deal with complicated problems. That’s not a bad approach to take for a lot of life’s problems, but facing a too-chaotic situation can put you into brain lock, and you can get stuck and stay stuck.

            There’s really no way to finesse one of these situations. You’re dealing with someone for whom the needs of others barely register. Waiting will not improve the situation, it’ll just take more out of you. Separating and divorcing are going to be a mess. Your net worth and standard of living are sure to take a hit, the lives of any children you have are going to be turned upside down, and your social circle is going to get disrupted.

            Beyond doing your financial due diligence, figuring out some alternative acceptable settlements, and securing any items you consider irreplaceable, there isn’t much point in overthinking it. You have to go to war, and as it’s been said, “no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.”

            I live in a place half the size of my old house, I have my kids half the time, and I have essentially no disposable income for the time being. On the other hand, I’m no longer suffering the death by a thousand cuts that my marriage was, my kids get some respite from their wacky mom, and my schedule is my own when the kids aren’t with me. Life is good on the other side!

            Lose that cheater and gain that life!

            • Thank you vre. I left almost a year ago and am in the process of divorce but this was exactly what I needed to hear today. Thank you thank you thank you.

              • Maybe if you think of it in terms that if you only get ‘half’ from your shit marriage and then are lucky enough to find a person who only got ‘half’ from their shit marriage and you two fall in love….you’d be two people with a WHOLE thing?

        • “The bottom line is he’s not a good man nor an honest man, but he’s also not a serial cheater or the sort of man described in today’s post. I sometimes wish he had been, just so this whole decision would be made a bit easier.”

          It makes no difference. He’s a rotten individual who does not deserve you. Please don’t feel sorry for this schmuck or try to rationalize WHY he did what he did. It doesn’t matter. IMO, it is black and white. He did horrible things besides cheating by your own admission. Some of what you described DOES sound blatant and cruel.

          All this ruminating about whether he wants you or not, I think it is your ego talking too. I did the same thing. You need to push to the point where you see it just doesn’t fucking matter. HE doesn’t deserve YOU. Know your worth buddy!

          • Thanks, RK. You are right, of course.

            I deserve better! We all do!

    • There are many different ways to be cruel.

      Using someone for their money and then dumping them when they run out is extremely uncaring. Big lack of empathy and humanity.

      Turning someone away when they are having psychological problems is also heartless. So is pretending you didn’t cause the problems.

      It’s easy to say he wasn’t the kind of sicko who wanted to bring someone into my home and play tricks on me, but he was the kind of uncaring person who uses people and doesn’t want to have to help them when they need help.

      • diana L, sometimes I wonder if I’m just on autopilot.

        For the first three months, before I realized there was another woman, I withheld my real feelings about his abandonment of me because I wanted him back and didn’t want to “frighten” him.

        Now I withhold most of my feelings because he has a lawsuit pending, and I will get half of his award. I can’t afford to piss him off and I fear, even though things are in place for me to get the money, that he will somehow take it and run.

        I feel that when I get my hands on that money and it’s safely in my bank account, I will start the divorce and show him a side of me he’s never seen.

        Hell hath no fury…

    • ML – look at his actions, not his words or the way he makes you feel. He used you for sex, he used you for citizenship, he used you for money then dumped you when it ran out. Regardless of whether he seems nice, or respectful, he is not. He is not a good person.

      It takes time to get your head around it but you are doing great! You will get to meh, as will we all when we are finally able to disengage from the drama.

      • Rosie, thank you. He is not a good person. Why does that bother me so much? Am I still so ashamed to admit I was with such an unethical and cruel man? Am I still feeling that his actions are a reflection of me? I need to get over that!

        In the handful of times I have experienced meh, it was wonderful. I look forward to it hanging out a bit longer.

    • ML….in another post here you said he was now being ‘Decent’ to you. Listen to yourself. Please.

  • ML, sorry, but you are wrong.

    He is a DREADFUL man. He USES people. You know how he used you. You think he doesn’t mention OW out of respect????

    No, it is because she is as meaningless to him as you are. She is of USE to him. I am furious this POS has something as important as US citizenship because of fraud. I am sorry he took your money.

    • You’re right, Patsy. Perhaps it’s my shame which won’t allow me to really see things as they are, or a self protection thing because sometimes I just don’t want to feel anymore!

      When I consider the facts of our “case” then I have to admit I’m one of the truly chumped. Sadly, I just need to remind myself of it from time to time.

      • Hey, ML: his behaviour does NOT determine your worth.
        That mantra saved my sanity for a long time.

        You did the good, the right thing, and he took advantage of that. That’s on him, not you. You will heal and get to be free, and he will still be the person he is.

        • Thank you, Patsy. I will heal and be free and he will still be the person he is. So very true.

          • Yeah, and ML, rest assured he will get his just deserts……karma can be a bitch, and his brand of modus operendi attracts some really nasty karma. Sooner or later he will screw over someone who will have absolutely no problem with flattening his sorry ass, and the fates will come marching in…..

            And Honey, you won’t even notice because you will have reached Meh and will be having a fabulous life…..

  • My cheater used to quote a friend of his who had his own famous saying: “FTD.” And it wasnt a reference to the delivery of flowers. their cute little acronym was code for: “Fuck The Dumb”.

    My Ex commented on how this guy wore it like a badge of honor. Like his acquaintance, he internalized this moronic mindset. That’s what he did. I WAS dumb. Past tense.

    Tipping my hat to the polished turd. He taught me a hard life lesson. My counselor (when I was grieving so badly) said that I had a problem coming to grips with the fact that people are evil and that they do evil things because they WANT to. I had robe FORCED to see that.

    Now, I see it this way. These people DO exist. If you’re reading this, most likely you’ve won the lottery and you have one. However, like having your hand in a fire, the pain will continue, and you will not even START the healing process until you realize who and what they are.

    Doesn’t define you in any way. Luck of the draw. Show’s over folks. Like a F5 tornado. Gotta stop wondering “how could this storm do this to me?” and shrug, and do the clean up.

    P.S. … Long story, short. Like CL says. They’re sickos. Be glad they’re gone.

    And while you’re cleaning up, giggle a bit turning the tables and listening to this:

    • Oh yah, the acronyms that little boys use to think they’re so cool. My STBXH and his dipshit, dimwitted, dumbass “friends” think it’s cool, in their 40’s now, to giggle like schoolgirls over, “Rock out with your Cock out”.

      Being around him and his low rent pals was always an excrutiating experience and he always called me “uptight” for not thinking immature, disgusting and truly distastful crap like that said in public should just loosen me up a bit.


      • GlassHalfFull….did your X have low rent friends too? I always wondered what that was about. Mine was highly educated and well employed but loved to go to dive bars and hang out with low lifers and get drunk and yuk it up like he was in junior high and say stupid shit like that.

        • Ditto. Works out for my ex though because his low rent friends never call him on his shit. I think they just reflect the inner trash he is.

  • Raising my hand to dinners with two other women who also bought gifts for my baby daughter (you know, the one whose life would be forever impacted by their disgusting, selfish piggery?). Another was chirpily commenting on our family photos on his facebook page (I can be pretend to respect boundaries on facebook then send secret texts/emails about massages and kissing — how saucy!). These shit-holes are utter wastes of skin.

    It’s bad enough to have been an unwitting dupe of stbx, but knowing that he invited this disordered harem of human flesh-eaters into my life, and that of my daughter? Incomprehensible.

    • Sorry, Wastedheart. That’s disgusting. And you’re right: it’s also incomprehensible.

      Hugs to you and your daughter.

      • Awww thanks, FoolMeTwice. My stbx is now in the blame me stage – I engineered a failure to our reconciliation by searching for evidence of further betrayals and lies, which of course I found. See the logic? It wasn’t what the searches yielded that did us in, it was that I was such a distrustful meanie for conducting the search to begin with. So now I’m mad again, and he’s mad at me for being mad, and it’s now clear that the demise of our marriage is due to my rage (at being repeatedly betrayed and humiliated over years), but never mind why. Rage is rage, and the fact that I have it means I am personality-disordered (tell that to rape victims, btw).
        Oh – and after begging me for chance after chance, love-bombing, and telling me I’m the best person he knows, he’s decided that the problem is that I’m “inherently unlikable.” Guess I haven’t been sunny enough in the wake of being chumped. My close group of friends with whom I’m going to London next week howled like banshees, pleased as punch that he, who they now refer to as the “inherently disordered” perv, has been exiled from the reverie. Wheeeee! Hope they stay facebook friends just long enough to feel his exclusion.

        • Uggh!! My Ex told me that the reason he left and started dating his little GF (totally glossing over the fact that she was in the picture before he left…) was that I was too angry and too emotional over his saying he no longer loved me and did not want the responsibility of being a husband and father any more. Realllllyyy…I was “too emotional” about my husband of 20 years walking away from our family? Leaving with two heartbroken boys who loved their dad and had no idea why he was leaving or what was going on?? I was too emotional? And the sad thing was I internalized that for over a year! I truly let that statement sink into my soul and I felt GUILTY for being angry and for crying. Of all the things I despise about him, this has to be #1. That he succeeded in making me feel guilty about HIS abandoning our family. He was a truly masterful sicko!

          • Oh Nicole – I’m so sorry that he was such a cold bastard. Just know that you would have come to despise him once you carefully excised all of those little shards of glass from your heart. And while watching the cheater feigning empathy, remorse, pain and guilt are sort temporarily satisfying in a quick fix sort of way, once you see the mask slip, there’s utter and complete rage not only at the lack of remorse, but in allowing yourself to be duped again! In some ways, the runners are better, because at least the gaslighting stops. But who am I to say what’s less painful? It’s like the old Monty Python skit, “I can offer you a boot in the teeth or a dagger up the strap.”

            • “And while watching the cheater feigning empathy, remorse, pain and guilt are sort temporarily satisfying in a quick fix sort of way, once you see the mask slip, there’s utter and complete rage not only at the lack of remorse, but in allowing yourself to be duped again! In some ways, the runners are better, because at least the gaslighting stops”

              Well said, Wastedheart. And thanks – I needed to read that tonight.

  • Where the hell to start? This sick son of a bitch was pornsturbating and God only knows what else, even when we were dating, waiting for 2 fucking years for our “annulment” from the Catholic church. We ” stayed apart” (for the most part) because it would be immoral to be together without the sacrament of marriage. 6 years and 2 kids and a failed busisness “due to the bad economy” later, 9 days before I have child #3, I catch him whacking off to lesbian porn in the middle of the night, in the computer room next to our other 2 childrens room. He was supposed to be ” doing the business accounts”. And he had to do them in the middle of the night because he had no other time. He worked like a dog during the day and when he came home I needed his attention and so did the kids…….we were so …..needy. He was doing something alright, but it had nothing to do with feeding his family. He destroyed me financially. He had BAD credit, but he told me that he ” believed in paying for things with cash, and if you did not have cash, then you should not buy it”. Sound thinking I thought. Till I maried this MFPOS and he used MY credit which was in the 900s, to finance his business.. work vehicles, trucks, 10,000$ credit card, 2 of my 3 IRAs from my lucrative career that I gave up to “stay home and raise our family”. 20,0000 dollars in inheritance money to try to stay afloat. He defaulted on it all. Electricity shut off, water shut off, tax liens, defaulted on all the vehicles.. I was so humiliated and cried my eyes out when I had to take one of the trucks back to the bank and hand over the keys. I went and got it washed then took it and handed the keys over to the bank manager. Oh the shame of it. Then, because he had decimated my credit and all my funds, he shut the business down and proceeded to go from job to job. We were always on wic or foodstamps. My family was mortified that I was at home with now 4 children under 6 and in the dire financial predicimate I was in. One of my sisters told me “YOU NEED A DIVORCE!!!!” But I am Catholic and we had been attending a very strict traditional sect (read CULT) that did not allow women to wear pants or makeup. Lots of fasting and praying , the old Mass. No music except classical or religeous. No tv. No dancing except square dancing. It gave him the perfect way to control the whole family. He was thought to be so PIOUS. “Look at that family!!! What a good father! Soooooooooooo Catholic!!!” and really, he was masturbating at home,looking at teen porn in his car, at work, Any where he possibly could. I know he was laughing at me. He had me and had me good. I felt compelled to continue this fucking farce. God only know why I did it for so long. What a stupid stupid stupid chump.. It never occurred to me when he was literallly pushing me and the children out the door for activities. ” You are going to be late for storytime you better get GOING!!!” or “Don’t you have groceries to get?” ” Get going down to the Church or you’ll miss (fill in the blank) feast day, or obligation day or crusaders meeting”. All the while, just wanting us gone so he could look and masturbate to porn. He took the childrens portable dvd player and said it was stolen. I actually filed a police report on it. It mysteriously reappeared in our back yard in a backpack I had never seen before. He blamed it on one of the neighbor kids. He was using it when he went to work to whack to porn. In his car, at luchtime, on the way home he said he would pull over and do it then. How do I know these things? Oh we had at least 10 ddays and false reconcilliations. Went to the priest 3 times. No luck. I left with the children for a week to try to make some kind of sense of what to do, and give him a chance to set up counseling. He wrote me letters and answered questions, always denying any physical affair. I don’t beleive him. He once wrote me a scathing note, saying that I would probably “like for him to confirm my “suspicions” of a physical affair wouldn’t I?” His ability to compartmentalize is confounding. I never knew people could do that. My heart was broken, my self esteem was gone. The only thing I had was my 5 children. I told him that our whole marriage was a lie. He said no it wasn’t, he meant all those marriage promises he had made. He is a pathological, lying pervert. I recovered a hard drive and stopped at 16,000 photos. I had no idea for our first 6 years of marriage that he was doing this. HOW THE HELL DOES THAT HAPPEN??????? HOW STUPID DOES ONE HAVE TO BE TO NOT KNOW THIS IS GOING ON RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE!!!!! IN YOUR OWN HOME???

    After finding out his father had molested some of his grandaughters. I filed a complaint on his dad which is still under investigation. (not my girls, thank God), and finding out that it was “teen porn” he was viewing,finding his nasty semen soaked kleenex and hearing him masturbate next to me when he thought I was sleeping, I had had enough, I kicked his ass out and gave him 6 months to SHOW me he would change. I got a great therapist and was in touch with the leading therapist in the country Dr. Omar Minwalla, whose whole career as a Psychcologist is dealing with these sick fucks. He told me to RUN. That he would never change, that he was a sex offender not a sex addict and that I needed to protect my children. So six months after he moved out, I found out he had a secret account at our bank and had deposited our entire 10,000$ tax return in it. Of course he lied to me when questioned about the return. I played detective, and backtracked the whole thing through the IRS. I even got the account # he deposited it in. I also taped that motherfucker lying to me about it. So, I lawyered up, filed for divorce and he came over after being served and commited a domestic assault on me. Luckily, when he broke into my house I had all my children RUN to their rooms and lock the doors. That actually was where the assault happened. He tried to stop my son from closing the door, but I had my hand on the knob and pulled so hard I almost ripped it out of the door. My son was pushing on the other side so when the latch clicked he quickly locked the door. Fucker was trying to shove me back with his elbow but I was not giving an INCH. He then ran and got my cell and refuses to give it to me to call 911. I had to run to my gate and unchain it. I had chained it in anticipation to his reaction to my filing for divorce. He jumped up on the hood of my truck and jumped over my 6 ft security fence in order to break into my home. I got my neighbors cell and called 911. They arrested him and he spent 2 days in jail. Till his perverted father and mother bailed him out.

    I now have a pemanent protective order and he has limited visitation with NO overnights. The two oldest 11,13 won’t see him or talk to him at all. I am financially fucked. Period. Thanks to the generosity of friends and family, a therapist who sees me for free, and all the others who have come to my aid I am eternally grateful. Asshole lost his job as a Sheriffs Deputy, so for now we are on foodstamps and medicaid. He has an underpaid job I am sure so he won’t have to pay child support. I homeschool these 4 left at home and I am doing whatever to make ends meet. I train dogs, I am making soap and became an associate for USANA Health Sciences.

    He lives in our motorcoach at a friend house, and can whack off to whatever perverted shit he wants to. My protective order states he cannot use a cell phone except for emergencies, and cannot use any computer when having visitation with the two younger children. He is prohibited from taking the children to his fathers house or letting the children see his father under any circumstance when he has them for visitation. Best I could do.

    As a side note, his youngest brother spent 9 months in jail for raping a 16 year old girl. He has been married 5 times. His sister told me when she was a teen, “someone” would put a mirror under the door when she showered or dressed. She thought it was the brother, but I think it was her fucked up perverted dad. She has since messaged me about forgivness and how Jesus died for all sins and her dad and brothers sins are ALREADY forgiven. REALLY?? Even if you continue to do this sick shit?? Fuck that. His older brothers marriage, which is his second one because he CHEATED on his first wife with wife #2, is on the rocks because of his PORN ADDICTION. The deceiful nature of these fucked up entitled narcisstic assholes absoulutely floors me. And the shame of being duped is still heavy on my heart. My poor children. They do not deserve this. I was a party to it. I should have left long ago. But I kept thinking he would change. I tried, I really did. To be what he wanted. To be understanding and supportive. To honor the promise I made to him and these beautiful children. These people are seriously fucked up. My therapist said I needed to quit trying to figure out why. That normal people who are honest at there core, and empathetic have no way to see someone like him coming. She told me she did not know how I survived this long. Me either. 🙁

    Sorry this is so long, I just needed to get this off my chest. For the milllionth time LOL. Tracy, I bought your book on Kindle and if I had had that gem 8 years ago my life would be very different. You have done something so important and so needed for women like us. I can’t thank you enough. You have changed my life. For the better. All of chump nation has helped and I thank you all for your insightful stories, your fantastic sense of humor, your bitchslapping when needed and most of all the comraderie that comes from surviving a life-changing trauma. I love you all.

    • Wow, just wow.

      Irish, I remember you saying that your XFiL was a child molester, but this is a new litany of fuckedupness.

      You are very mighty for having gotten out of there. You model awesome for your children.

      • Just reading that is exhausting. I’m so sorry – that’s a vile level of sicko. And I concur – you are mighty.

    • Glad you have got a good therapist. Don’t worry about why–you know why. These apples didn’t fall far from the pedophile tree. That’s knowledge enough. You didn’t know, and when you did, you got out and protected your kids. I hope you have found a more generous and joyful religious practice, as many Catholics dearly love music and dance. We should all be grateful for food stamps and medicaid; I routinely smack down the “entitlement” talk on FB about that stuff as demonstrations of ignorance. As a society, we have a safety net so that those who have suffered huge life trauma can meet some of the most basic needs for themselves and their children. We are all one weather disaster, one life-altering sickness, one business down-sizing, or one disordered cheater away from needing the kindness of our neighbors. And then, when our lives recover, we pay it forward to the next family who needs it. Love ya back.

    • Jedi hugs Irish, I know it sucks but I am so glad to her from you, I was worried when you stopped posting on the forum that the sick fuck had done something even worse. I see you were consumed with getting away, you are mighty! I knew you could find a way. Heidi hugs x 1000

        • Thanks to you ALL for reading my story and for the kind words. I really needed to write it down and have someone read it. It still seems surreal that this is what my life had become. I am stepping away from the psycho and regaining that girl who was not afraid and took no shit from anybody. She is still there, although a little battered. My close friends are happy to see the old me again. I have such peace knowing I do not have to have ANY contact with that fucked up, pathological, lying sack of shit. And thanks to Chumplady. Tracy, you literally have saved countless lives. Truly. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Chump Nation, you ALL are the kindest, wisest, most compassionate and no holds barred honest group of people I have had the priviledge to know. I don’t post much, but read everyday. Thanks to you ALL Chump Nation YOU are mighty and because of that, you teach others to be mighty too!!!! xoxo

          • DatDamWuf I try to email you but it always fails. Message me again the add so I can try to keep in touch OK?

    • Oh, Irish.

      I’ve been following your posts on the private forums and am so glad to see you out here and sharing your powerful story of strength and perseverence. The whole porn/sex addiction and horror is something many of us wish we didn’t relate to. You are MIGHTY!

  • Oh — and he tipped them all off when he was found out and warned them that I have a touch of craze and not to engage me. I’m sure he still tips them off about divorce, etc – hoping that they’ll forget that they were all duped too. Triangulation anyone?

  • Irish, I’m nearly speechless. You are an inspiration. The human spirit is powerful. We can rise above this and go on with our lives.

  • I began to suspect my ex’s moral values when he casually mentioned one day that of his two sisters, one was sleeping with the other one’s husband. She was a malignant narcissist who proved this to us many times over the years. I was horrified but my ex warned me that she had “confided” in him and that I should not spill the beans, or it would “devastate the family”. I did have a level of caring for the chump sister, so my approach was to let her sicko husband know I was on to him. I told him to never come near me and to forget about small talk. God, that family had so many secrets under the rug. As for her chumped husband, I came to know much later on that he too was a serial cheater so the two of them were in fact a matched set.

    Fast forward five years. The malignant narcissistmhad the gall to write and tell me off for divorcing her (cheater) brother. What a laugh. I called her transatlantic (rather than put it in writing) and told her to keep her cheating pie hole shut or I’d rat her out to her sister. She said…you have no proof…I said, how do you know I don’t? I was around you guys at numerous family functions, the cottage weekends, etc. They likely had their trysts at such events…and tha tshut her up. She started backtracking big time, and I finished off with a summative “fark off for good or I’ll implode your little bubble”. To this day I still debate whether I should have told the chump sister. Especially since her cheater hubby is now an invalid and she’s running around wiping his arse.

    • Almost daily here on CL I run across a comment about morals, ethics or values.

      I think CL should do a post on that so that we can improve our pickers.

      In hindsight it’s easy to see that most of these cheaters were not a great match from the beginning. If we had been examining what was truly important to us we might not have overlooked so much in our partners. At least that is the case for me.

      A post about “Moral red flags we should have caught” might be really interesting.

  • After I walked out of a marriage as a chump for 29 years, I thought I was free. What made me trip again was the loneliness. I should have done some therapy or found CL. Instead, I hooked up with the first sparkly charmer who came along and within two months he had moved in. He turned out to be far sicker than my first husband, whose idea of cheating was conventional sex, missionary position no doubt. Yes he was that boring.

    So #2. For the first 18 months, he was all glitter and sunshine. In touch with his feminine side, he was a chef, a househusband, and life of the party. All at my expense…he never did find a job the whole time. Life had apparently dealt him some bad luck, and he was very convincing at the victim stories. Enough to make a girl want to take him in and fix him. Little did I know this sicko would harm me within an inch of my life…literally…and destroy my dignity, steal from me, and humiliate me publicly. I truly believe he did it because he wanted my money and was so envious of all I had. What a mistake to marry someone who had so much less than I, materially.

    I had a busy professional job and frankly didn’t have time to worry about his laziness. I used to wonder whether I’d made a mistake, but our time together was always FUN and I used that as an excuse for not calling him to account.

    Then he started to get irritable and distant. And one day, a neighbour’s son, a very young man, came up to me…in my own driveway and said “I’ve seen your partner bringing a woman to the house during the day…and my Mom thinks you don’t know about it”. What comes out of the mouths of babes….

    I went in the house, in shock. I decided to give myself some days to calm down and think what to do next. I booked off work. I was a mess, but I could not let on to him what was up. I pretended to have the flu and just stayed in bed and thought hard about my plan of action. I knew in my gut what was going on, but had to get proof.

    This unexpected staying home produced an interesting reaction in my sicko partner. He got so angry, he stormed out each day and stayed out, instead of bringing me chicken soup…

    So I decided to install a keylogger on my home laptop. Best thing I ever did. It not only proved the affair, but gave me enough evidence to bring some decent charges against him, and to get a restraining order eventually.

    The only thing I did wrong was to assume he did not have an extra copy of the house key (looking back, probably the OW’s copy). I changed the locks on him once I sussed him out. I have written elsewhere on this site about all the disgusting things he and the OW did in my marital bed, and the things she stole from me.

    However, by far the worst really was that he had been trying to poison me. Prior to outing him, I had been feeling progressively more ill for weeks with numb hands and feet, stiff joints, stomach pains. It was mystifying. So, one night the Ex appeared at my door and “wanted to talk”. I foolishly let him in, thinking I’d give him a piece of my mind since I had not yet confronted him about the affair, I had actually just messaged him and told him to move in with honey. Once in the house, he pulled out a 4″ kitchen knife and held it to my throat. He lectured me for what seemed like hours, ranting and raving about all his twisted insecurities. I talked him down to some extent, but then he would get back to yelling again. Fortunately, the neighbour across the street who is a paramedic was coming home late and heard the yelling. He told me afterward it was so angry that he came up to the front window and looked in. What he saw led him to call the cops…

    And so I was rescued by the cops pounding on the door. They took Ex away in a squad car and took my statement. To this day, I don’t know what happened to the knife, but it was one of my own from my kitchen, so I know he had it and must have hidden it somewhere in my house or maybe flushed it…who knows.

    The cops were not able to press a charge for assault because there was no visible injury except bruises, no weapon found, and it was a domestic situation. The investigators however advised me to see my doctor for blood tests because they were concerned about my feeling so ill. The result was that I had such high levels of lead in my blood that they were fairly sure he was poisoning me….cooking my meals, especially curries which are apparently classic for masking such things. I started treatment for the poisoning and slowly got better. That was the creepiest part of all, to know that he was such a monster. We concluded that it was for the life insurance I had at work. He knew that despite our pre-nup, he was beneficiary of that insurance.

    The cops were really angry at this guy. Here where I live, it is very hard to get prosecutors to lay a charge in any domestic case. So the two cops, who were real gamers, told me they would “take care of him” because they didn’t trust the system to do it. I later heard they got him pretty good, sorry, no details on that bit.

    The sickest part of all was the OW. She bragged endlessly about all the shit she did to me. He was pimping her on prostitution websites, posting gross photos of her, selling used underwear, pussy pops, you name it. All because they were desperate and brome.

    Then she got pregnant. Poor kid that resulted was born with hypothyroid because the stupid bitch didn’t deal with her Graves Disease prior to getting pregnant. She now runs a Mommy blog…the sickest, most pathetic read ever, but strangely it provides so many laughs when I check it out occasionally. They are lowest of the low. She has out on at least 100lbs. In three years and photos of her resemble a face looking through a know, that kind of puffy fat that can only come from pigging out. She writes reviews of burger restaurants and trailer parks. Hilarious but true.

    How the hell did an otherwise educated and fairly normal person like me get involved with these people? Naivete, trust, fear of being alone. I vowed after that to stay single for at least five years to simply learn to like myself and get used to it. It is working.

    • Wow, Marci, I relate on a much smaller scale.

      I have been in a relationship with a man since I married right after I turned 18. I’m 57 now and have been married four times. I basically don’t date, I marry. The nine or so months from d-day are the longest period I’ve ever gone without a man. For the first few months I felt such shame in being single! It was absurd.

      Even now when I think I may never have another lover, and that does make me sad but I’d rather be alone that be subjected to the horror and humiliation I just experienced. And for the first time in my life I’m seeing how wonderful it can be to not answer to someone else.

      I told myself to go at least a year without looking at another man, but I think longer is better. In the meantime, it’s been fascinating getting to know myself and the more I do, the more I am learning to value myself.

      Good luck to us both, Marci!

    • Marci, there’s sick, and then there’s your ex and his henchwoman OW. I am gobsmacked by what you’ve been through, and so impressed and inspired that you can find ways to laugh about it. Wow. Just, wow.

      I seriously love this board and all the Chumps who post here.

      • FMT…
        Partly what makes me able to laugh is my own pettiness. I know we are all supposed to rise above the scum and their henchmen/women, but I feel the old “schadenfreude” when I hear of Ex’s troubles.

        How? Through her (the poisonous OW) blogs. She is a right twat, and posts every day on a public blog about their “family life” which consists of visits to burger joints, theme parks, and entering endless online competitions to win useless crap. She does not work, but eats enough for five. I know exactly what the ex is up to because the dumbass had never changed his passwords. I can still see his email, AND his posts on dating sites…he is a complete and utter disgrace. He is still hiring callgirls for encounters in the no-tell motel, despite being lovey-dovey partner on her blogsite.

        Funny though, I no longer have the urge to snoop much on them. I have a restraining order, for what it’s worth, and I’d rather stay off their pathetic radar. I do have a occasional laugh when I catch up on them and realise for the umpteenth time how truly blessed I am to be free and healthy, despite my colourblindness (why I couldn’t see the red flags I guess).

  • There should be some sort of fucktard dye/itch initiator you could buy somewhere. The old trick of putting dye in something so when the thief sticks their hands in it you know who it was. Somehow booby trap the bed so it causes a reaction with sweat other than yours…or booby-trapped condoms, just make sure that the stash at home looks normal. If he uses it while you’re gone, you’ll come home and find out pretty quickly…Hmmmmm…to find a chemist…

  • When I started reading today’s blog post, I thought about some of the previous discussions we’ve had about how our cheaters use the marital bed. I know my cheater has, and my reactions were complicated. On one hand, it’s furniture. On the other, it’s home invasion. There are several other layers involved, including a disbelief that he’d be so stupid as to have the skank over here where our neighbors would notice he’s fucking a side piece. I’d be ashamed on his behalf, but I realize that he truly doesn’t have any.

    Anyway, as I read CL, I realized that yes, my STBX has OW over to our house because of all three reasons. What’s worse is that he’s so prosaic, so predictable now. He uses the bed because a double life is expensive, so when I go out of town, he gets to invite OW over for a special weekend. He gets off on the deceit, and in retrospect I see that he’s always liked it when his sexual activity runs the risk of discovery. At the same time, he’s delusional. He thinks he can pull the wool over everyone’s eyes, but if he is discovered, hey! He is a MAN! And other men can be in awe of his MANHOOD! The world really does revolve around him.


  • All of these stories are so cringe worthy. It really underlines why chumps should not keep quiet. When we keep quiet, it allows us to spackle in peace. We help the cheater distort reality, so much so that we are not shocked into immediate action when they pull some of the shit they pull. Instead be apply more spackle and second guess ourselves, “nah, he couldn’t have done/said that!”

    Last weekend I went to visit with a friend I haven’t seen in a while. I caught her up on the goings on and told her some of the more blatant things ExH did. The look on her face when I told her just a couple of the incidents was eye opening. She stared at me like several small talking heads had popped out of my forehead and were waving their purple tongues at her. She was gobsmacked that anyone would do such a thing, much less someone you married.

    If a normal person can see so clearly that what my excheater did was abnormal, no bizarre, and cause for alarm, why didn’t I. Why did I stay and stay, and try to “fix” him, and “figure” him out? Because I needed a reality check. Living with crazy 24/7, makes you crazy. I needed to touch base with proven sane people in my life who could take the spackle out of my hand and say “girl, that’s REALLY fucked up.”

    I will never keep secrets like that in a relationship again.

    • You’re right about bouncing things off a normal, long term friend. I could never tell my FOO about all the crazy stuff I’ve put myself through with these fucktards. However, I do have one female friend I’ve known since teenage days. She is a long divorced chump and was ostracized by HER family because they were “embarrassed” when she dumped him. She has been my pillar of strength at my lowest points, and helps me even laugh at the worst times. Sometimes laughing till you cry is the only way to get through it. She also doesn’t hesitate to point out my chumpy behaviour so I learn the lesson.

    • This is why Abusers isolate you, mine did it with martyr man tactics. Their fuckedupedness becomes normal to you over time, my ex took years to do this, if it happens more quickly you notice, wish my ex had been less cautious.

    • “The look on her face when I told her just a couple of the incidents was eye opening. She stared at me like several small talking heads had popped out of my forehead and were waving their purple tongues at her.”

      Ye gods! I’ve seen this look on my friends’ faces too! Such a brilliant description, ThatGirl!

      I try to spare my friends from the endless litany of the latest messed up thing he has done, but I do need the reality check sometimes – just having them confirm that yes, his behaviour is messed up, help to stop me spackling. I also use the bullshit translator in my head now whenever he texts me or emails me. It’s amazing how it helps 🙂

  • Right after D-day we spend night after night talking, I was dumbfounded, grieving, lost all my bearings, had millions of questions. And he? Looking back, I can only describe it as smug.

    So when I asked about details, had they been in our home, in her marital home/bed? He almost proudly declared that yes, they had been in hers. But ‘unfortunately’ I worked from home, he never knew when I’d be there. I know now he would have loved to have that one over me.

    Took me a while to see him for the lying cheat that he is. Took me longer to understand that he was deliberately hurting me, even if it was meant to be behind my back. In the beginning I believed: “I fell in love with her, but didn’t want to hurt you, I love you”. Chump indeed.

    People still see him as the nice guy, the passive-agressive side is very well hidden. But boy, have I looked behind the mask… I don’t believe a word he says, stay as non-contact as can be with two children.

    On dying parents: I wrote it here before, he tried to reschedule his fathers funeral because of his flight schedule (to see her). But only recently I understood why we all spent so much time waiting on him on our way to the funeral home – he was in the bathroom texting her. I was so embarrassed at the time, thinking he was taking a big dump – now I understand it was even shittier than that!

    Every time I read a post here more things fall into place, I don’t need any more pieces in the puzzle, but the recognition feels good. I was not crazy!

    • I know how you feel Dutch chump. For years I felt uncomfortable about my ex’s relationship with his coworker. No one else seemed to see it, though, so I thought I was overly jealous and insecure. Once my ex’s parents were visiting and his coworker showed up on our front porch with my husband’s dry cleaning. She was always so kind like that, picking it up and delivering it to him on her way home (gag). I made a sort of off-color comment about her delivery service to my MIL, who sighed and acted like I was overly-jealous. Seriously, I just couldn’t understand why NO ONE seemed to think this woman’s behavior was bizarre but me. It turns out my gut was right all along. To this day I’m sure my MIL would claim her son was just “good friends” with OW.

      • It’s hard when the cheater’s family believe his/her lies. My husband told his teen daughters, my stepdaughters, that he met the other woman after we separated which absolves him of all guilt and simply ends the subject for them.

        Well, daddy fell in love with another woman after he and ML separated. Oh well!

        I want so much to tell them that he’s lying!

        • I have proof in my ex’s writing about his affair with his married coworker. I’ve thought so many times about sending it to his mother, but it wouldn’t matter. She is a mother and loves her son unconditionally. I’m sure she’s heard I’m crazy, and would possibly think I was making it up. Only thing I told her was that we would always be family and I didn’t want to put her in a difficult situation by trying to stay close to her. I told her that her son needed her, because he does. He didn’t get what he needed from her as a child. I believe that’s part of what his problem was to begin with. It’s enough that I know the truth, and so do my kids.

  • My cheating ex-wife claimed she did not fuck in our bed and it could be true, but considering her track record with honesty it’s simply hard to know. I have stayed in our marital house while she left thanks to some adept divorce moves on my part.

    So, I am still in the ‘ol marital bed. I am far from superstitious, but I bought a new mattress and did a hilarious cleansing ceremony with my girlfriend by burning sage and muttering nonsense magic words. The idea of any potential dried sex stains demons from my narcissistic and her equally self-involved other man really turn my stomach. BE GONE DEMONS!

    • I smudged my house too after he left. I know it’s all in my head, but I felt like it really cleared him out of my space.

  • My cheater was too cowardly to bring the skank to our home, but didn’t think twice about reliving our courtship with her. He brought her to the same restaurants, same pubs, same hotels, same vacation locations, etc. He even brought her to our family cottage on the Cape, where the two assholes had their coming out party with his friends from college while I was home trying to figure out what the fuck had happened to my marriage. Seems he had already written his exit narrative and was selling it with success to his friends.

    X always thought himself as a Ben Cartwright type of patriarch, and I complied by delivering three strapping sons. Of course, it always worried me that all the women on Bonanza died or moved to San Francisco. His bimbo better watch out.

  • Another great post thank you CL 🙂

    I got chumped twice.
    First with a massive Narcsissit (19 yrs) who ran me all around the park & still does the withholding financial support & has done this for over 10 years.He finally left with our business receptionist & my friend & I was then targeted & supported by a Charismatic Sociopath/Covert Narc who played mind games for 10 long years. I only found out when the OW (dr of Sociology) contacted me March last year.
    It’s a long story but, she is just another Duper’s delight with a Capitol D!
    Anyway, I thought I’d share his delusion as he is amazingly sicko!
    He has many women in his collection & keeps them all. He buys us all the same perfume out of laziness but, also so we don’t smell each other! Calls us all Darling so, he doesn’t slip up & uses the same spiel verbatim. The OW & a past Mistress & I compared notes!
    He collects Royal Doulton Lady Figurines & was enraged when his ex-wife sold her share of the settlement on ebay (haha) but, she had figured out that they actually represented his ‘women’ & he would buy them to ‘rub her nose’ in each infidelity & mistress/conquest etc….Oh & his son aka (wing-man or protege) collects Predator Figurines & lives with his mother & reports back to the Head Honcho Sicko Loopy La La Dickhead so, they can ruin her future relationships! That is just a snippet & I can hardly believe in hindsight that I literally had no clue & when I did, he sent in his ‘flying monkeys’ to cover-up etc…
    Yes, I got the high functioning full blown nutter (yay me) & having come from such an abusive marriage, he mirrored the complete opposite. I even did his diploma to keep his high ranking position in the fire brigade!!!! So, I am well versed in the whole shebang & literally got ruined financially with the first sicko. The last one tried to break me completely but, I have risen once again & am still standing. Have faith everyone & share & support each other because the monsters are not just in your head, they walk beside you everyday. You learn to love & value yourself & pick-up, pack-up & move on. Never give up & never let them have the satisfaction of breaking you down as, that is their desire but, one they can’t win if you don’t let them. Stand Strong 🙂
    Awareb4 aka PR xoxo

    P.S. I bet I win the prize for biggest dupe with sickest sicko, actually the OW’s get the sicko’s & are both still in the game so, they win that accolade now! I am free of them 😉

  • Nothing is really sacred to a cheater, not even their own kids, so why would they care about fucking their OW/OM in your bed? My ex did that as well, by the way, as far as I can tell. He called to confirm that I was at the park with our son, gonna be there for several hours, then brought OW to our home for fucking. He did her a bunch in our van as well, the van that became my car after we separated. He told me so during our bogus reconciliation.

    Here’s a stunt he pulled on our son: Son was given $100 for Christmas by my mom. Ex took it because he wanted to use it for gas money. So many incidents like that.

    • Talk about financial stunts. My current BF (a chump too) has been paying his ex wife $500 a month support for their daughter for the past 13 years. According to court order, the $500 was supposed to go directly through to daughter because she has sports training expenses. He recently discovered through the daughter that she had never seen a cent of the money. When the ex wife was questioned about it, she claimed to have never received anything from BF. Daughter and BF both are pursuing it, but daughter still is convinced it’s her father who “deserted” them…time for some truth-telling I’d say.

  • What about telling you what they are gonna do? Is that still sicko or something else

    W- “I won’t come back to you because sex with you is just sex but sex with OM is just so much more. BTW, OM and I want to go camping, we can use our tent right? It is half mine.”

    Me- “Um, NO! You left that when you left me and the kids. I know what WE did in that tent and I’m not letting you do that with him in it.”

    • Sane Objective Observer to W: “Yeah, sex seems like so much more with OM because it’s just an appetizer! It comes with a main course of ego kibbles, a side order of pain and humiliation for your family, and cake for dessert. And, W, if it’s “just sex” with your H, that’s because you unplugged from your marriage long ago. Finally, if you leave your J and kids, nothing is “ours” any more. It’s THEIRS.”

    • Yeah, she unpugged. I can see it now. I knew it then too but she would never want to talk about it.

  • Yup, lazy and getting off on the deception.

    I asked ex if Cabbage loved her husband and he said he didn’t know because he did not ask. He said that she found it difficult to be married to the same person for so long (hyena). He said he became attracted to her because she was drawn to him. Right! Why then get me involved? Why ask me to cook meals for her and feed her face? Why invite her to my home and bring my child to hers?

    Once when she and her “family” were at my home I served cheese and told her that I did not know their names. The very next week she invited ex to bring us to her “home” and when I walked in she had her cheeses right out on the counter—LABELED. Another time she criticized my toilet paper. I had to laugh. What a dumb piece of shit. She LOOKED like a stalker.

    She wrote me emails asking me why I wanted to arrange meals for my childcare provider for a second week when she miscarried. I told her she was under no obligation to participate, that I felt gratitude for this provider and wanted to support her at this hard time. This same childcare provider looked at me with contempt when she found out, two full years before someone finally let me know.

    Cabbage had two kids, a PHD and she could not find anything better to do because she GOT OFF ON THE DECEPTION. She had a perfect match with my shark lawyer ex.

    I found a long brown hair in my bathroom when I was diapering my son. Could not understand, was late for teaching and was worried because he would cry when I left and really hated to leave him. Good going assholes, you really pulled one over on me there!

    Then she bought him a birthday present. A three legged pig–a symbol of good will. Gave it to him right in front of me and he was tickled. An inside joke—-“would you do me even though I am a pig–not kosher you know?” How humiliating.

    After they made out among the boxes in my living room she decided to throw a goodbye party for us when we left Bloomington to go to NY. She gave “us” a gift–some parchment-like stationary to “keep in touch.” Classy, huh?

    Oh, and she had such a hard childhood, “poor poor depressed me” so she have cheater ex books from an author she “related to” –Mary Karr. Guess what he did???? HE GAVE THEM TO ME TO READ!!!! He was too damned lazy to read the books she wanted him to read–to get to know her inner most self (vomit). He also gave me the Dan Savage books she lent him to read. You know, good old Dan who says it’s okay to take hostages by cheating if you feel like it would benefit you. Screw him.

    After they shared their first kiss in the parking lot after the Bloomington Area Birth Services Fundraiser Gala (gross). The one asshole said “was not much fun.” I did not go because I was caring for our child…..After their make out session, they told each other that they “did not want to ruin their marriages” so “Lets just remain friends”

    Fast forward a year—

    She told her husband and wanted shark lawyer ex to tell me. He refused. Her last words to him were: “I can’t believe I nearly ruined my marriage for someone who doesn’t even want to be with me.” Oh dear, she was shopping around for a new husband and it just didn’t work out. On to the next!! Watch out Bloomington chumps—she is trolling the farmers markets showing your husbands her thong as she bends over to get those ripe tomatoes.

    My childcare provider was titillated by it all. She understood Cabbage because “she was in love with a married man herself.” I got all of these details from cheater ex and troll “friend” who acted as Cabbage Patch’s messenger. Troll told me Cabbage was “jealous of me when cheater ex would not leave me for her.”

    Oh, take him, take him!!!

    They sure had fun theorizing about my marriage! That’s what these assholes do in Bloomington.

    I begged him to go to her and leave me alone.

    What are the odds he will get hit by a bus or get beaten to death by one of his domestic violence clients who he is helping to get residential custody? Oh God of justice, reign down on their heads. Not very meh–I really hope to get there.

    I know I sounds like I am doing really badly, but I am actually much better.

    CL’s post is pure truth. Thank you Tracy and thank to all of the smart chumps out there. You cannot make this shit up. Lesson: no contact with psycho is the only good contact.