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Dear Chump Lady, My ex-wife wants me to go to therapy with her

NoDear Chump Lady,

My ex-wife (20-year marriage) went to my therapist. (Chump that I am, I recommended that the cheating ex-wife use my therapist to save money because she knew the story.) Now she wants me to go to a meeting with her this coming Monday the 14th!

Therapist called, told me it was about finding out about what went wrong, and to learn and build from there.

I read a lot on CL — I feel like I’ve fallen into a trap!

History: Dated 5 years; married 20 years, two children 19 and 15 awesome girls, (they know). I’ve been divorced now 8 months. I asked her to stop talking/texting/Facebooking with Hector and she said no. I said goodbye!

My wife’s mother was ill for 2 years and passed away. I gave 110% (maybe an underestimate as I’m a chump) following her death. A few months later my wife is lying, gaslighting. I thought I was going CRAZY. I enlisted a therapist several months later and put it all together. My ex (a first-grade teacher) was cheating with a co-worker for at least two years. (It might be longer.)

I lost 35 lbs. For two years, I slept maybe 3 to 4 hours a night. I’ve kept my job so far (not sure how)?

Divorced, she got half, kids are in the middle (I don’t say anything bad). She calls occasionally, as if nothing has changed….this KILLS ME! Like she did nothing wrong.

So on Monday, how do I handle confrontation with my cheater?

I sacrificed for her mother and she choose to spend that time with Hector?
I asked her how she was on a regular basis, and she chose to share her emotions with Hector?
I asked her to go out for fun vacations and she turned me down to be with Hector.

Do I dare ask her about this? I’m pissed!

What would you do?


Dear Chris,

What would I do? Hmmm. In how many languages can you say “No fucking way”?

Dear God man, un-chump yourself! Say NO. And while you’re at it, dump the therapist. Why on earth would you go to therapy with your cheating ex? That’s like going to remedial driving school with the drunk driver who hit you. You’re not the bozo who plowed into a semi. You’re the chump who went splat.

She and the therapist want you to help them figure out what went wrong?

Fucking Hector for two years is what went wrong.

I sacrificed for her mother and she choose to spend that time with Hector? 


I asked her how she was on a regular basis, and she chose to share her emotions with Hector?


I asked her to go out for fun vacations and she turned me down to be with Hector.


I think these actions clearly demonstrate why you are divorced. I have a pretty good handle on it in three sentences and I don’t even have a masters in social work! (Your therapist and ex might be slower learners. Not your problem.)

The only reason to go to that idiotic “confrontation” is so your ex (and probably the shrink) can get you to own what you did to make her cheat. Then you’ll have the same “understanding” and Can Be Friends For The Kids.

Fuck that shit.

Maybe you should explain the dissolution of your marriage to your ex in first grade teacher language she can understand?

  1. Don’t take things that aren’t yours.
  2. Clean up your messes.
  3. Use your words, not your genitals.

Failing that, maybe some arts and crafts? A Hector paint-by-number? An adultery diorama? A puppet show?

Anyway, Chris, her understanding of the divorce isn’t your responsibility. Here are your obligations — abide by the court order for another three years. Pay child support (if it’s ordered), maintain the custody schedule, communicate with the ex by email or scheduling software. You only have one minor child who is 15. Heck, the schedule is probably up to her.

Here are things you are NOT obliged to do — a) pick up the phone and let her make friendly chit-chat with you. b) Go to therapy with her. c) Let her think you’re friends.

Does that make you churlish, bitter, scorned?

No. That makes you a man who is moving on with his life.

If you’re keen on therapy, go find a new shrink to teach you boundaries and the beauty of NO. No, I don’t have to accommodate you. No, I don’t have to soothe your discomfort. No, I’m busy then. NO.

Call the shrink and cancel.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at [email protected]. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Chris, she is still trying to control you! She needs someone around to smell her farts, to make sure she can still dictate the storyline. I think you should call the shrink and ask if Hector can come too! Just to make sure you can completely focus on her and her story line and make sure you all agree!

    No , wait! don’t do that! Don’t do anything. It will be two seconds of your life you will never get back. Put your energy into a more positive life. Onward and upward! Enjoy your future!

    • Freaking LOVE this! Don’t be a fart smeller CHRIS! DON’T fucking do it… Just say NO!

    • Nancy, thank you for the laugh– that’s a perfect way to put it. They do want us around to smell their farts! 😀

      • Anyone out there whose narcissist claimed his/her farts didn’t smell? Mine did! I can’t make this shit up.

          • Please explain to your cheater that “No, I can’t verify if your farts smell or not. I’m sure you have plenty of people who will do that for you. However, I am 100% positive you can stink up a room without farting”.

              • Since we are being lavatorial I would like to add that, prior to joining CN, I used to analyse his every fart looking for proof that he still cared – he didnt!
                Now OW gets to smell and listen to his frequent emissions.

    • very well said Nancy. i think you are on to somethign here.

      i think he should tell his exwife and the therapist that you KNOW what went wrong for you and then suggest that they call Hector to the session. tell the therapist that the exwife would chose Hector for every other aspect of your marriage and so now your exwife should keep choosing Hector.

    • OMG Chris,
      I changed she for he, and you are talking about my life, except you have been much stronger as you D and accepted!

      CL said it all soooo perfectly! Loved it, “What went wrong? Fucking Hector for starters….”

      It is so true as “they” want you to “hear” her. The therapist & wife want all to try to move on to a more peaceful place. Problem is, “they” don’t get to make any decision on what you need.

      One thing I’ve been slow to learn, once you take on their affair, you own it…

      Don’t do it Chris, say thx, but no thx, & don’t bring it up again.

      • Eileen, I believe that you are right in regards to the direction of both parties here! “The therapist & wife want all to try to move on to a more peaceful place.”

        I certainly do not want to take on their affair and end up owning it… I think that what my gut is telling me – Run!

  • Chris,

    Listen to CL here!

    My cheating xW, a professional marriage therapist herself, wanted me to meet up with her in my home state to go over “what went wrong” as well. I told her, “No” and I did not lack any clarity on that number–the marriage ended with her lying, committing adultery, and divorcing me. It angered her that I said, “No.” However, it was clear from her response that she just wanted to control the narrative and shift-blame onto me.

    You feel like it is a trap BECAUSE IT IS A TRAP! Listen to your gut. Do not willingly walk into a situation bound to be a matter of blaming you for her wicked choices. Set your boundaries. Say, “No.”


    • DM – Just wanted to let you know that reading a similar comment you made in a previous thread a few weeks ago was a huge help to me about refusing to get dragged into a “what happened” cycle with my STBX.

      Chris – First off, congrats on reaching out to CL and CN! The feeling of being trapped is a real sign that you are healing, this is chump progress, so high five on getting through this point!

      Of course, just like she lied and gaslighted you, your ex is probably having a field day gaslighting and lying to your therapist.

      Have you been working with this therapist for two years? If so, immediately cancel the session and say good bye to that therapist, encouraging him/her to read “Why does he do that” by Lundy Bancroft to expand her/his therapeutic effectiveness.

      If you have only been working with that therapist for a little while, tell him/her that your ex-spouse is likely a cluster b and that you need a therapist that is effective with that personality type within the NO CONTACT and detachment framework. Either your current therapist is going to shape up and work with you given your ex’s character, or you find another therapist specialized in cluster b recovery.

      Choose YOU, go NC with your ex, and give yourself what you need – A high quality therapist and support system (including CN) so YOU can heal and endure the buffet of shit sandwiches your ex is and will keep serving you directly or through your kids.

      • Or Chris could go ahead and find a new counselor, then call the old counselor and say “thanks, but I’m already with another counselor and am moving ahead with my life.”

        • You’re right Lyn, and thanks willm999 and Psyche for pointing out triangulation!

          Chris, I have changed my mind on how to proceed with your current therapist, and apologize if I have introduced confusion in your mind in my earlier comment. I hope you will end treatment with your current therapist, encourage her to learn about treatment options for cluster b patients if she continue treating your wife, and focus your time on working with a therapist specialized in cluster b recovery!

      • Chumptitude,

        Glad my thoughts were helpful.

        I am dubious about encouraging Chris to stay with this therapist. CL is right. It is best to move on. She ought to be able to spot the crazy in xW a mile away (especially since she counseled Chris first). Best to find a therapist who is ACTUALLY equipped to deal with these situations. I suspect this therapist ascribes to “The Shared Responsibility” lie regarding the end of the marriage. That’s a “no go” for me.


        • Thanks DM for all your contributions and words of wisdom!

          You are right about Chris’ therapist. I am working on this quite a bit, but it is a bigger task than I anticipated for me to put the give-’em-the-benefit-of-the-doubt-spackle bucket away.

        • Definitely ixnay on any therapist who feels that her cheating was somehow your fault. That’s a garden variety idiot charging you money, not a therapist.

    • DM, my STBX’s affair partner, who was once upon a time a psychotherapist but got barred for bad behavior, told me, ‘let the healing begin’ after confessing her affair with my husband. Condescending monster–she wanted to control even how I felt about the affair! How dare she not only ‘take’ my husband and play a pivotal role in destroying my life and the lives of my children but also tell me how I should feel about the disaster.

      Chris, I get the distinct feeling that you are being ‘set up.’ I used to be ‘set up’ by my now-STBX in being asked to join him in psychotherapy sessions. (He also used to set me, ensure that I would be at one particular home (we briefly had three) to have the police apprehend me and search my home without warrant! There was no reason, other than to try to frame me for burglary of my home to search my home. This is life with mentally ill, disordered people.) This particular ‘brand’ of therapy was a waste of time, energy, money and a psychological drain. My psychologist (psychotherapist) immediately saw through cheater (the one time cheater met my psychologist) and told me that cheater used therapy sessions as a forum for abuse of me. Trust your gut. Cheater sucks. Use your time, energy, and money on something that will improve the lives of you, your children, and those who reciprocate your love and affection.

      • I was also set up by STBX and our MC, though nothing as horrifying as what happened to RockStarWife, I’m so sorry to read that story, just unbelievable. But it’s the perfect example of how far these disordered freaks will go to control you and the narrative about the disintegration of your marriage.

        In my case STBX flat-out lied to the MC, claiming I had serious substance abuse and mental health issues, and asking her to help organize some sort of intervention. My refusal to cooperate became evidence, in her professional opinion, of my denial of the problem. I’ve since learned that STBX also started to plant the story with a select number of family and friends, all in anticipation of me filing. Now that I have, he’s trying to use the MC and family and friends (with no actual evidence to support his claims) to back his efforts to get two-thirds placement of our youngest, who’s in his mid-teens. He’s also spreading the story around our small town to help bolster his case.

        STBX’s plan, in typical disordered fashion, is not well-thought out or logically consistent in any way and is already starting to backfire on him. But it’s been enormously stressful and a huge energy drain, and I wish now that I had never set foot in that MC’s office. You can bet that your X has her own agenda and has already laid the trap–as others have said, don’t give her the power to do it. Say no and walk off into the Meh sunset that’s not very far down the road!

        • I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with that, Other Kat. Stay mighty (and let this be a warning to other chumps–GET THE TRUE STORY OUT FIRST!!).

          • Thank you, and that’s such good advice, Tempest. I really wish I’d done a better job of getting the true story out there first. I would add that if you are new here and just starting to suspect your spouse is on the disordered spectrum, start telling trusted family and friends about the abuse and poor treatment you’ve endured NOW, even if you’re not sure you’re planning to leave. That was a huge mistake on my part, not telling more people until I was sure I was leaving. By then the damage had been done and I’m not sure my reputation will fully recover.

            • I don’t believe this. The real story will always reveal itself, people always know “what went down” even in discreet little towns. My son was a gifted athlete and a favorite coach of his once shared with me, “He’s not in it for your son.” Now we lived in a small town (and everybody loved my peace officer Sparkley ex) and not a lot of people approached me but at that moment I knew that that well respected man was trying to communicate something to me, I was just too dense to figure it out. The next season my ex had uprooted my son from the place he’d spent the last five years and placed him into another “new” league. Same county but away from our hometown group. “The truth will out.” That next season Mr. Fucktard was heavily into his crap affair and announcing to all and sundry how miserable he was married to me.

    • DivorceMinister made a very good point that I want to commend: it feels like a trap because it IS a trap!

      Pat yourself on the back for hearing your intuition tell you it’s a trap, and then take the next step and honor that intuition by doing what you would do when identifying any other trap… get the hell away from it!

      Hearing your intuition/gut feeling when it’s talking to you is a major step in picker fixing, so good work Chris!

  • Oh WOW, yes! No is sometimes a beautiful word! So empowering, when wielded correctly. No wonder two year-olds love to use it so often 🙂

  • My take on cheaters: they are attention whores. All they want is people paying attention to them. Don’t be a fan. Your ex wife’s parade is not an event you need to attend.

    This will not affect your daughters in the least. Nothing else matters.

    • Marci, YES, THIS!! Any attention, be it positive or negative, feeds these emotional vampires and gives them the opportunity them re-frame their ill behavior. Ergo I cheated because you weren’t meeting my need for cake, so feel bad for sparkly, kibble deprived me! Now let’s talk about how YOU drove me to infidelity.

      Speaking from my own experience with post-adultery couples therapy, they WILL push you to accept responsibility for YOUR behaviors in the relationship that ‘contributed’ to your partners affair… Wait, WTF???!! The only thing we chumps are typically responsible for is letting the WS walk all over us. Don’t fall into the trap of taking blame for the poor choices of your ex-cheater. Ask yourself if anything positive can come out re-engagement. A good analogy on this topic might be something like: How many times do you let a dog bite you before you stop trying to pet it? How many times must you be robbed before you start locking your doors?

      Or how many times will your ex stab you in the back before you stop giving her the knife?

      NC is the best way to heal yourself, and her journey no longer concerns you. Take your power BACK.

  • “The only reason to go to that idiotic “confrontation” is so your ex (and probably the shrink) can get you to own what you did to make her cheat. Then you’ll have the same “understanding” and Can Be Friends For The Kids.” Exactly. Don’t waste your time Chris.

    I always thought therapy took place BEFORE divorce. Huh. Odd.

    • They are heavily invested in it being our fault because of the impression management thing. If they can get you to agree that their cheating was partly (or mostly) your fault, they’ll look better to themselves as well as to others.

      The ONLY thing they are worried about is their image.

      If she wanted to be “friends”, she could have given Hector up – or at least not rubbed him in your face. She didn’t. She sold you down the river and now wants you to exonerate her. Let your two-cent therapist absolve her.

  • The only reason I would go to the appointment would be to read a list of ‘ Fuck u and the horse you rode in on ‘ statements a la Chump Lady speak. Then I would stand up shake the therapists hand … Shake my ex hand and walk out the door.

    • Yes The clip,that would be my style.ive always found it hard to not voice my opinion and I don’t intend to be shut up now.Everyones different.

    • Okay, pretty much did what Clip said.

      I went to the ONE appointment I agreed to go to (week after DD) with fucktard and his therapist. The appointment was made about 10 months later.

      I had plenty of CL schooling to know bullshit when I heard it and the therapist asked me at the end if I had a degree in psychology (I feel I am a graduate of

      Mother fucker lied to his therapist about MANY things (duh), I sung like a canary and I dropped the unicorn foot I had in my pocket in the trash on the way out.

      Asshole asked is we could hold hands as we walked to our cars as if NOTHING happened?!??! W.T.F.

      Immediately went N/C.

      If you choose to go, attend with “EYES WIDE OPEN”, take no prisoners, you are NOT the one on trial and expect NOTHING but an exercise in futility.

      • It still amazes me what these narcissistic cheaters will ask for. My STBX tried to make small talk with me on the way out of court this week after he screwed me for everything I was worth. He said he was ‘sorry.’ I indicated that his ‘sorry’ was meaningless as it was followed by his character assassination of me to the Court and others for over a year. Without looking at him, I told him that I never wanted to see him or hear from him again. He protested, ‘but we have kids (pseudo-sob–‘I might lose my kibble and my opportunity to control someone’)!’ (If he were so concerned about our kids, then why did he spend what was supposed to be put in our kids’ accounts on prostitutes and affair partners?) I told him ‘text, email, minimal contact’ and kept going. I’m learning that saying (aloud or not), ‘No,’ ‘No more,’ and ‘No contact’ is one of the simplest, most empowering, and most liberating actions one can make.

        • I learned “no contact” here from all you beautiful chumps. I agree, RockStar, what an incredible weapon against the disordered. It’s like clicking your fingers and disappearing.


          • Damn straight, chumps! Best advice I got here. Idiotic texts from the jackass? A regular thing for me. No response! Easy and works like a charm. Even logistical texts regarding our son get an hour minimum wait so I can keep my responses calm, brief and to the point.

  • Don’t do it Chris. CL is absolutely right about this shrink. Any decent one would tell your Xwife she needs to deal with the demons of her marriage HERSELF and that it’s not your problem to fix. The fact that they want to see you is just a trap. Probably one of these “problems in the marriage cause cheating” Reconciliation Industrial Complex types… It will:

    1. Set you up to have to defend yourself in the marriage (something you don’t need to do at this point)
    2. Give your Xwife kibbles (say no to kibbles- give those to someone worthy)
    3. Make you look like the bad guy when you refuse to play ball with her ridiculous ideas (can we be friends? NO!)
    4. It will open old wounds, upset you, and likely raise your blood pressure. Who needs that Chris?

    I saw a RIC type marriage counselor with STBX and despite evidence he was at the MINIMUM talking to a woman that wasn’t ME multiple times a day, texts too.. this asshole made every session about my anxiety, my issues, what’s wrong with newchumpatl!?? Can newchumpatl take meds, back off poor sausage because he’s “confused”.. so stop expecting anything from him. He never ONCE challenged my STBX on his behavior, oh.. can’t upset the timid forest creature! God forbid anyone take responsibility! These kinds of therapists are enablers. If your X wants to see someone like this to validate her screwed up view of what happened, that’s out of your control, but you sure as hell don’t have to participate in it.

    GL Chris.. and stay mighty, and stay away from your X except with regard to your kids, support, etc. You do NOT have to be her friend.

    • Hmm. Seems the person that would have benefited the most was… Wait for it.. the TheRapist! Keep you coming back. Get you a nice prescription that you can get hooked on. Real nice.

      • I agree. They make it all about the injured party, because we’re the ones desperate to hang on. They’re astute enough to know that the cheater could care less, and is there because it’s the price of maintaining kibbles – nothing more, nothing less. The therapist doesn’t care that they have a chump in front of them being emotionally eviscerated because they are IN IT FOR THE MONEY.

        A descent human being (much less a “professional”) wouldn’t tolerate what they see going on before them.

  • My only question is, to build on what? What’s the point? You are divorced, everyone knows why you are divorced! Nuff said! The time to “talk” was before the divorce, but most cheaters don’t want to even open their mouths cause they are so focused on being with the OM/OW that your feelings don’t matter! I am a HUGE fan of the word NO! Cheaters hate the word no. Especially if it’s a complete sentence, no explanation, no justification! Just plain vanilla NO! There is nothing to argue about! Tell your therapist it’s NOT going to happen. The Ex is a Narc who just wants to watch you while she twists the knife a bit more! Screw that and screw her!

  • Chris, I can’t believe your therapist is asking you for this and even agreed to take your wife on as a client in the first place. It’s not like she started out as your marriage counselor.

    I referred someone I was dating to my therapist and she refused due to a conflict of interest.

    Your ex is not a person who is entitled to your feelings or with whom you are safe being vulnerable. The time spent in the therapist office with her would be more constructively spent with a cold beer and a good friend.

    • Ding, ding, ding!! You need a new therapist for this reason alone, Chris (and you definitely need NOT TO GO to this crazy joint session). Your therapist has revealed a stunning lack of professional ethics right here. It was perfectly reasonable of you to suggest her to your ex-wife (how would you know?) but the THERAPIST should have known to say no at that point. That he or she took your ex-wife on as a client actually means NO GOOD MUY NO BUENO. Thank God for this clear red flag! (And heed it!)

      • Exactly this. I wouldn’t be able to trust a therapist who would pull a stunt like this.

        Besides, once a relationship ends (for any reason), you need to be able to get it over it on your own, not repeatedly hash things out with an ex in a futile attempt at “closure.” The therapist should be helping your ex get to the root of her problems ON HER OWN, not through confrontation with you.

    • Chris, I absolutely agree with this. Anything that your therapist would say about you would violate your Dr./Patient privilege. She’d need to get a waiver/consent form signed by you before any kind of joint therapy would take place.

      DON’T do it! It serves NO purpose other than to make your wife feel better and you’ll wind up in a fog of WTF? after every session. The moment you step into that office and see your wife she will be encouraged to spew more bullshit because she knows that you will pay money to a therapist just to be present in the same room with her? No- THAT is messed up!

      Unless you are having some real depression issues, anxiety attacks etc. Do YOU even need therapy? I think Chump Nation here will give you all the help you need. Work on fixing your picker and put your energy into your wonderful daughters. 1) Leave the Ex where she belongs and 2) Go No Contact.

  • Chris,

    Please listen to CL. I would also highly recommend you to go No Contact with her also. I know you have kids and if you have to chat with her just talk about the kids in a “Yes” and “No” comments when it comes visitation with the kids. Drop that therapist. There is nothing to discuss with the therapist and the ex in terms of what went wrong in the marriage. Your ex is the problem. Her character is the problem. End of!!!!! There is no way you will ever ever I mean ever be able to get this disturbed person you call an ex to understand what she did was WRONG. She DOES NOT get it because how her mind is wired. If you cannot go No Contact then go Gray Rock. Going “gray rock” with a Narcissist is great when you have kids. Then when the kids become adult age then go No Contact. Move on with your life. Find a better and smarter therapist because this one you have and the ex has is as dumb as a gray rock not seeing the ex is disordered mind fuck! If this therapist places any blame on you then report that therapist.

    Don’t forget we are here for you and sending you hugs. Cancel that appointment and you don’t have to give a reason and fire that therapist.

      • Thanks for this, Beth. My STBX is (finally! after 2.5 years!) moving into her own house in two weeks and I’ll have the dubious pleasure of coparenting our two sons (9 and 12) with her. This should come in handy.

      • Crazywoman6,

        You should be able to see the link right above your comment. It will explain “Gray Rock” in great detail. If you cannot see the link let me know and I will post it in better detail.

        • Beth, I’m very happy you’re spreading the word about Sandra Brown’s educational blog talks, and the process of going “Gray Rock”. It works so well in situations where total NC is not an option. Since I was able to go NC, the only place I went Gray Rock is with the “Flying Monkeys”. Yeah, it works for them critters too! Hugs to you!

          • Boudica Reborn, that blog site is what really place all of the missing pieces of the puzzle about the ex for me. That is when my healing process really started. Oh “Gray Rock” is something I read some place. One great thing is that I didn’t have kids with the ex. I got close a few times but the pregnancies ended in miscarriages. So NC is my method. Hugs to you and everyone here. I hope this can help others. We need all the help we can.

  • Say NO!! I was explaining to a girlfriend last night how cheaters work (well at least mine)…There is a certain mystery a darkness behind their eyes. Whats behind the darkness? DARKNESS!! Let her find the light on her own!! You were there for her for so long- her loss. Say NO – I totally agree its a trap! Stay mighty!!:-)

  • Chris: Not sure if this is a recent letter, but PLEASE check in and let us know you did not go to that therapy appointment (or all of us will be the ones only sleeping 3-4 hours tonight).

    • Tempest,

      I think it is this coming Monday because that is the 14th (September, 2015). The sleeping the entire night away does return. It has for me since I found my answers with the ex. I wasn’t sleeping much at all for years but now I sleep for about 8 to 10 hours a night and the PSTD and nightmares have gone. When or if I do have dreams about the ex I am kicking ass in them and telling him what he is and before I was running away in fear of the ex. Not any more. I’m a kick ass Ninja Cluster B expert in the dreams now. HA!!!!!!

      • Beth, that’s encouraging to know. I’m still only managing about 4 hours sleep a night, and having the PSTD hyper vigilance and nightmares. However, I left Mr. Deviant in November 2014, and the divorce was final in February of this year. Time really does help, doesn’t it?

        • Whoa, Boudica–we’re twins! I filed in November 2014 (threw him out the month before) and divorce final in February. We can celebrate our divorce anniversaries together.

          • Boudica Reborn and Tempest,
            Did life improve once your divorce was finalized? Specifically, did you ex harass you less?

            • RockStarWife, there is a great post I made above that will help you out. Please listen to it. Sadly if your ex is disordered they will never leave you alone. That is why going No Contact is important. Also go to the police and file the proper paper work and also speak with an attorney. Keep a journal when he contacts you. If it is on the phone (mobile) keep those records. Also speak with the police with what he is doing. There are stalking laws and you need to use them to protect yourself.

            • Yes, though mine is a mega-narc and so arrogant that he started playing a game to see which one of us could ignore the other one more. I do have a minor daughter, but she refuses to talk to cheater, so I don’t need contact except for emails about financial matters connected to the older daughter’s tuition.

              Yours should have fewer opportunities to harass you once the divorce is final. Unfortunately, given his tendencies, he will probably take every opportunity to make your life miserable (HeHidBehindaMask and others can chime in here on the bullshite their X/es pulled over mundane things, especially having to do with the kids. And then there’s always the “let’s re-visit custody arrangements, including with the grandparents”–Done Now can elaborate on those). These guys/gals will do anything for power, and to maintain the illusion of power. My X has taken the opposite path (including covertly telling joint friends not to have contact with me, and they are listening because he is powerful within the profession), but it all boils down to POWER. Even irritating you is POWER. Prepare yourself (though it should get easier than what you’re going through now). Hugs, RSW.

            • RockStarWife, my XH wouldn’t even think of harassing me, as I believe he now suspects that I have the hard evidence on him for sleeping with several women in our church (and I’m pretty sure they don’t know about each other), and for secretly taking the stalking photos of the women he works with. Impression management is vital to him, and, though he isn’t the brightest candle on the turd-cake, he knows what would happen if he was “outed”.

          • Yes, it does Boudica Reborn. It does take time. Your healing process is very important and please don’t rush it. Also never listen to anyone when they question that you are not over it yet. That is not a true friend and tell them to screw off. The abuse you had to deal with is just evil and no one should ever question that. I’m not an expert but I’m many years from it than you and Tempest and it still hits me at times. Just know I am here for you and everyone else. I don’t have the answers to many things but I am understanding the mind set of the cheaters and the things they screw. I will not ever take any shit from them and their followers Also I think well I know having a strong support system is very important. I am here to listen and learn more and more.

            Also I do recommend to get into yoga and any type of exercise. Eating right is important also. Massage therapy is helpful and Acupuncture. Also do things you always wanted to do. I have a list and I do many things on this list during the year and I am always adding to it. Even take a class to learn new languages or things like that will help your mind to make new avenues for better thinking.

            I had such dark dark I mean dark depression and PSTD and even planned to take my life. I didn’t of course but it got that bad. Now things are so different. I cannot explain how much more alive I feel now. It does get better but you do have to save yourself in a way. To know it wasn’t you. When you start to think different then you will be different. Educating myself about these PD has helped me also. So many friends I have now can see I am different now.

            Now I am remarried to a wonderful not perfect man. We have had our ups and downs but normal ups and downs that normal couples have. We have been together for many years now and we laugh so much and we just enjoy being with each other. I didn’t have that with the ex. I have a new outlook on life now. I do so many new things that I never thought I would do. I have a wonderful job and so much better friends now. The real funny thing is that if I didn’t leave the ex I wouldn’t have what I have now. Also I have learned that I can overcome anything now. That the end of my first marriage didn’t kill me but I was reborn in a way. I am not the same person but a better person. Now I know what I want and what I expect from life. It’s on my terms now. No more abuse from the ex, his family and friends, and from my family and friends.

            They can kiss my big old cellulite fat ass!!!!!!!!!

            Hugs to you!

            • “The things they screw”, lol, that cracks me up. Summarizes the whores pretty nicely.

              I think it is so great that people like you who are far away timewise from this shit are around to encourage those who are newer to it. One thing that bothered me about RIC is that they just want you to go hide under a bucket like you are guilty of something. That helps no one. Knowledge gained but hidden from those it could help is useless.

              • Anita,

                Lol! Oh I did write that. Sometimes I shock myself with the things I write. Blushing here. I guess now I just don’t care with protecting my thoughts and feelings with these losers. Thank you so much for your kind words. It does mean a great deal to me.

                One of the billion things why I love about Chump Lady and Chump Nation there is nothing to hide about. I love I mean love the kick ass attitude on this site. I think Chump Lady needs to take over the world because she can and will get it better.

  • Message to therapist: “What went wrong is that my wife had a 2-year affair with her co-worker. We divorced. My presence to assist her in her own therapy is neither required nor reasonable. I will not be in attendance on the 14th or any date thereafter.”

  • Chris,

    Put down the pipe. Seriously. Way back when before the divorce was final my Ex asked if he could talk to my therapist – if maybe we could both talk to her. I told him flat out, Hell to the Fucking No. When I mentioned it to my therapist she said she would have refused to see him because she was my therapist and had been for a year at that point. The fact that your therapist wants to sit down with you and your Ex after the divorce to see “what went wrong” sounds like bullshit to me. If I’m a therapist and someone came to me and said that they were cheating on their husband for two years and their husband divorced them, the rest of the conversation would be about what’s wrong with them and their choices, not what went wrong in the marriage. Hint: she went wrong in the marriage.

    Listen to Chump Lady Chris. Unchump yourself my man. No is a complete sentence. You’re divorced – you are not required to explain yourself to your Ex. And get a new therapist – one with some ethics.

  • Wow, Chris do you like inflicting pain on yourself? How do you expect to move on with your life with another woman if you are even entertaining such a request by her. About the only reason to do a group therapy together is if there is something going wrong with the kids AND EVEN THEN it is really really really creepy and up to the situation.

    My X right now is trying to gaslight our daughter into convincing her the adultery never took place and they are now a couple because our daughter brought them together. WHAT A FUCKING CROCK!

    Chris, first thing CL teaches everyone here is that people who do these kinds of things have no empathy whatsoever for anyone. They can be very nice people but they are only kind when it suites whatever agenda they have. Run away from that meeting and as CL says NO CONTACT!

    • True that, Lothos! Chris’s ex’s first reaction of continuing the affair is her true reaction. She doesn’t care and this appointment with this so called therapist will be blame shifting Chris time. That is more abuse. Why do that? That postpones his healing process. Also this therapist should in no way be seeing both of them for many reasons and also the confidential reasons alone. This therapist has red flags written all over her/him. Plus it does sound like this therapist is not educated in Personality Disorders at all.

      New added motto “Drop the dumb ass therapist and heal faster”.

    • It’s true, Chris–do not inflict more pain on yourself. Should you feel the need to do so, get a book of matches from your favorite restaurant, light 3 and put them out on your arm. that will be more adaptive than going to the therapy session. Physical pain disappears; the effect of mindfuckery lingers for years.

  • A real therapist wouldn’t see both of you after treating you individually. My therapist was very, very clear on that when I once chump-crumbled and asked her to se my and my stbx. You sound like you understand perfectly what happened. Is spen your one precious life on you and you future happiness now. Leave the cheater and the past where they belong. … can’t start your next chapter when you keep re-reading the last one.

  • I would call the therapist and inform her you will not be in her office on Monday or any other day in the future. You could end your statement there or add it is because of her demonstrated lack of boundaries and comprehension, if you wish. The truth is you should not see this therapist again. She is clearly clueless and, very importantly, does not recognize and/or value your best interests and have your back.

    The best way to move forward is to step away from the crazy of both your Ex and a therapist who, knowing you, thinks this is in any way a good idea for your mental health.

    • When my husband called my Therapist and left a message wanting to meet with her within the first 24 hours of D day, she never called him back. She called ME. She told me she would NOT call my husband back. She said this was 100% my call, my choice if I wanted him to join in on one of my sessions.

      D day for me was horrific in so many ways and my husband triggered my PTSD and continued to set bombs off in my brain all day. I felt so incredibly unsafe, I thought he was going to kill me. (I understand now that you don’t have to even have PTSD to feel that way – that it is actually not uncommon for a spouse who’s been betrayed and cheated on to feel their spouse is going to kill them. Fearing for their life.)

      I allowed my husband to join us for one session. My Therapist set down ground rules and Boundaries before either one of us spoke. She told us both that it was my session and I got to decide what we discussed. I asked her to explain to my husband what happens in the brain and body with PTSD, when and how it’s triggered and what specifically happened and is happening. I think some of it sunk in and he understood how his behavior was triggering me. I think though, it also gave him more ideas on how to mind fuck me over. So, no, don’t go to therapy with a lying Cheater.

  • Chris…everyone on here’s commented the same thing: DON’T GO to that joint therapy session. YOU don’t need to go find out where things went wrong. She made a conscious decision to be with Hector and that means she turned her back on you, and your girls. She chose Hector over her family…and I think she even chose Hector over her own mother!

    I commend you for being such a ‘good guy’ and helping her mother out so much. Most guys wouldn’t do that for their mother-in-law.

    I too was a chump for too many years, and my soon-to-be ex (fingers crossed) once chose to go to work (on a Sunday) instead of her ailing Grandmother’s birthday party. I took our kids to my in-laws’ house to celebrate the birthday. One of her sisters and I nagged her for about 3 hours while she was at work, telling her she NEEDED to be at the party since we didn’t know how much longer Grandma would be with us. Eventually she showed up (conveniently just in time for cake).

    A couple years later she chose her boss over me and our kids – and even after I agreed to marriage counseling, she went back for more with him. To me, that was the definitive action which sealed the fate of our “marriage” and unfortunately my kids are a lot younger than yours (8-4) so they’ve got to try and understand this whole week on/week off deal between their parents. To be honest, Chris, I’m jealous that your kids are so old…and you can tell them the truth about what happened – that they’re old enough to understand and make decisions on their own.

    Don’t go to the therapy session. The therapist is getting paid by her now…so what exactly do you think would come out of that session? I’ll tell you: You’ll end up leaving that session feeling guilty about all the stuff you just learned you did wrong or didn’t try enough to do, etc. You’ll feel chumped! You are NOT to blame for this situation…she is…end of story.

    Unchump yourself is the best advice given on here. Do it! At the start of my divorce, my cousin said this to me, and I’m sure it will resonate with you too: “It’s time for you to grow your balls back.”

    • I made the mistake of going to a therapy session like the one Chris is contemplating attending. STBX and I went to STBX’s psychotherapist. Shortly after saying ‘hello’ for the first time, the psychotherapist, who knew that my STBX had committed adultery and had tried to get the police to apprehend me, said to me, ‘You have family of origin issues.’ That’s a bit like saying to someone who has just unknowingly contract HIV, ‘You have HIV’ just by looking at him. There is no way one can determine those things by merely glancing at a person! (I don’t know how this bozo got through the PhD process.) My family of origin issues are quite small (and I would know as I studied psychology in graduate school and have several close relatives who work in the mental health field), I’m not afraid to mention them, and they had virtually no bearing on my then husband’s behavior. This ‘psychotherapist’ failed to notice the elephant in the room–adultery by an abusive, dishonest ‘husband.’

      • RSW- I hear you and I’m so sorry. It’s really quite a stunner to walk into that kind of twisted lunatic bullshit. I didn’t even GO to my stbx’s Indiv therapist, but that fucking asshat of a “therapist” had the fucking nerve to call the marriage counselor WE had been seeing for almost 2 years and said “so, could you tell me ChumpedupChik’s DSM codes?” (AKA crazy codes). He had only seen my stbx for 2 one hour sessions.

        I came fully and wholly unglued and unhinged and un-everything! MC was stunned and told that asswipe’s IC that I was perfectly well able to be in a relationship with an honest, healthy, non-manipulative, non-disordered other person. My stbx tricked me into signing a release form (don’t sign anything!) under the pretense that I was signing to give his IC permission to telephone and TALK to the MC and get more “insight.” I was ok with THAT, because MC had sniffed out my stbx/covert narc. But, I was stupidly unprepared for this so-called experienced professional therapist to actually believe and side with that fucking lying POS. Even IF stbx only copped to a single EA during the measles 2 sessions – any professional in this field should know that affairs require deceit, therefore stbx has, at the very least, behaved like a manipulative, cheating, lying sack of shit. Not ME, HIM! I could not even believe it. Just STILL unfuckingbelievable!!!! I had nothing for which I could report that fucker, because I had signed a RELEASE FORM. Duh….

        Oh, for anyone who maybe doesn’t know, the DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of mental disorders. Yeah, let THAT sink in. I did start having panic attacks and was depressed when stbx fuckwit’s string of lifelong EAs started to unravel – and so did I unfortunately. They wanted to call ME crazy? Fuck. That. Shit. They should be looking for HIS crazy codes in that book.

        There are NO good reasons for you to go Chris, and plenty of reasons NOT to as you’ve been reading in all these posts from the wiser been-there-done-thats. You’re already divorced. THAT’S your closure.

        Chump nation implores you to stay in your zone and not to throw away the peace you already have…’s as if you’re buying a ticket to your own torching, GAH!!!!

  • I had two similar requests from my first XW, a serail cheater to the max. First , she wanted to come to my therapist with me to discuss what had gone wrong(this was about 19 years after I moved out). This request was in response to my simply telling her she should admit her cheating and give me any inofrmation I wanted about it.
    I told her no, that she merely had to divulge the informationand there was no need to come and see my therapist. That shut her up, for a while.
    Then, about three months ago, she insisted on coming out to the car and meeting my girlfriend when we had come to her place to get my son’s car for shipment to California. She introduced herself and stared into my GF’s eyes and thanked her for being so kind to my one son with Down Syndrome.
    As we were walking to the garage to get the car, my GF remained behind and my XW commented on how lovely my GF is. I said “Yes, she is. I deserve her. I have been through so much hell.” She shut up.
    Then, about three weeks later, she called to discuss my son and said she would likle to take me and my GF out to dinner. I was shocked and simply said, “No, that is not a good idea”.
    These lying, cheating NPD assholes want to pretend that all is right and they also want to control you.
    I have no doubt that if mt XW came to therapy or got to go out with me and my GF, she would try to commandeer the whole discussionand would bad mouth me.
    I have asked my son to make sure she does not come to my funeral, as I am sure she would try to make it all about her and she would inject comments about whatt an abusive asshole I am.
    People like your XW, Chris are narcissists and they are , usually, pretty good at making you look bad in front of others. Sounds like she has youtr therapist ( who must be nuts, as well) snowed pretty good.
    I would never consent to this ambush. You have been through enough with the cheating, loss of weight ( I lost 47 lbs in two months) and loss of sleep.

    • Totally agree with Arnold and everyone else. Before I found CL I tried to have the “what went wrong” conversations with my cheater in an effort to see if there was anything to save from the marriage. It ALWAYS was a draining, exhausting, damaging, painful experience because everytime the cheating came up he would say “I am sorry BUT….” and would add anything “bad” I had done to him in the past. Fortunately, I always said to him that I would accept 50% responsibility for any mistakes that we had both committed as a couple (not enough communication, taking each other for granted, not planning date nights, etc) but that I would accept ZERO responsibility for his betrayal, lying, cheating, misleading information, etc.etc or anything that he did without my consent or awareness. So in conclusion, Chris, if it is not going to help you heal, don´t do it! And meeting with your ex in therapy will only put you back in your healing process, and will help her feel victory over you once again!

  • Some of the rules from “Everything I Really Needed to Know . . . I Learned in Kindergarten,” amended (in parentheses) so that even stupid cheaters with the maturity of disturbed toddler can understand how marriage works:
    • Share everything (except bodily fluids).
    • Play fair (but don’t play around).
    • Don’t hit people (or cheat on them, which can be just as bad).
    • Don’t take things that aren’t yours (like other peoples’ spouses).
    • Say you’re sorry when you hurt somebody (like when you have an affair).
    • Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you (unlike unprotected hooker sex).
    • Take a nap every afternoon (alone, or with your spouse).
    • When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together (okay, that one works as it is).

    • Sorry is for little things (like knocking a cookie to the floor) and only works when it is meant. I don’t think sorry is enough to absolve a cheating spouse. Even a two year old child knows that hurting someone can’t be made right by saying “sorry.” Sorry doesn’t make a poor choice go away, “Own your mistakes, learn from them, and do better, ” is probably a better goal but again this only works for “normal.” 😀

  • CL is right. Your ex wants to re-hash things for revisionist history so that she can blame you. It’s a mindfuck. Just say no.

  • Don’t even bother to say no. Just block her slimy ass and ignore her. She knows what went wrong. She’s a low moralled slut. That took what, one second? I’ll bill her.

  • In the words of my mother, it’s a bit late for all that. 😉

    This is not rocket science. What went wrong is that your XW had an affair with a co-worker. There is no mystery behind the dissolution of your marriage. The two of you didn’t go to sleep one night, only to wake up the next day and not recognize each other. She chose an affair over your marriage, you, and your daughters.

    If she’s interested in working on “what went wrong,” then she needs to look inward. Why did she feel entitled to cheat? Why cannot she establish and maintain strong boundaries? Why does she think it’s okay to lie?

    None of those are on you.

    I agree with insistonhonesty. Let your therapist know that what went wrong was that your wife chose to have an affair, and that your presence is unnecessary. Cancel all future appointments with that therapist and find one who understands what it’s like to deal with a Cluster B. Feel free to report your current therapist to whatever professional organization she belongs to. The therapist’s actions appear unethical.

    Stay strong and be the sane parent.

  • I would not do this. But you need to ask yourself:

    -Is anything that could be said in this therapy session going to change your course of action?

    -Is there something that could be said during this therapy session that hasn’t already been said?

    -Is there something your ex could say that will make you walk away feeling better, lighter, with closure?

    -Is there an issue you think you could work out during this session with the therapist’s help?

    -Are the positive outcomes of this session likely to outweigh the lasting negative effects?

    Or do you think this is an ambush in which your ex will take this “opportunity” to rake you over the coals, explain all the myriad of ways her shitty behavior was YOUR fault, with the outside confirmation of a therapist whose presence will make you feel like you can’t fight back?

    I have an inlaw with a profound personality disorder. It is such that you honestly can’t tell how much of her behavior is related to the personality disorder and how much of it entitlement due to her being treated with kid gloves because of the personality disorder. When her behavior became dangerous and illegal, my husband and I drew some serious boundaries with her, which shocked most of the family members – because boundaries had never been drawn with her.

    Inlaw and my husband’s parents asked us to come to a “family therapy session” to discuss these boundaries and Inlaw’s hurt feelings. I asked myself the questions above. Would anything said in this therapy session be likely to make us reconsider our “no contact” stance? (No.) Could anything be said that would change my feelings about Inlaw’s actions? (No.) Is there some logical explanation for her actions that could be given? (No.) Is there something Inlaw could say to make me feel better? (No.) Were the positive outcomes of this session likely to outweigh the lasting negative effects? (NOPE.)

    Or would it turn into an ambush in which Inlaw explained to me and my husband that her wacky drug-fueled antics were actually OUR fault because she turned to drugs to numb the pain from our cold horrible refusal to bend to her unreasonable demands on our time and attention? That our boundaries were the real problem, not her behavior that brought the boundaries about.

    We decided it was much more likely to be an ambush and declined. In true PD form, Inlaw told whoever would listen that she TRIED to fix things with us, but we were just too stubborn to go to counseling with her.

  • There is SOOOOOO much wrong with this, I don’t even know where to start.

    This ex, and your therapist, are, to put it mildly, nut jobs.

    1) We already know what went wrong – ***she f*cked other guys***, put you directly in harm’s way, and lied, instead of seeking constructive, adult ways to deal with her own sh*t.

    [ Incidentally, I find that reminding people of this tends to shut down the “let’s all be friends kumbaya bullsh*t: “Uhm… my ex F*CKED OTHER PEOPLE… WHILE WE WERE STILL MARRIED… what part of that statement seems ‘okay’ to you?!?!??” Shuts overly judgmental people right the f*ck up, in my experience. Just sayin’. ]

    2) One of the unwritten, but clear, messages implied by serving divorce papers is that ***it’s too late for therapy***. When you divorced her, you absolved yourself of having to abide by her late-ass timetable on sorting out her massive entitlement issues.

    3) The marriage is over, and you only have to get through three more years of co-parenting, so the incentive to YOU to dive back into that crazy quagmire of her issues is, what, exactly?

    You cannot reason with batsh*t crazy like that. If it were me, I wouldn’t even respond to that request.

    • Thank you, Sephage–coming up on my one-year anniversary of D-day (tomorrow), I am headed into a situation where joint friends are likely to start hinting that I should be amicable with my X by now. You have provided me with the perfect response. (Anticipating that some of those friends will start decreasing their invitations, but it is what it is.)

      • Tempest,

        Tell them to kiss your ass!!!! Also you are great with kick ass comments. If they “decreasing their invitations” and tell you to start being “amicable with the X by now” well you know deep down they are not true great friends. If that happens you can come here and we would have a blast together. You are invited to visit me anytime. (((hugs)))) during this 1 year anniversary of D-day. It does get better. Sending you bundles of love also. Oh yes don’t forget you are MIGHTY!!!!!

        • Thank you, Beth!! I have a huge bottle of bubbly to celebrate D-day anniversary tomorrow. The discovery of sexual harassment notes + condoms in (now)-X’s computer bag allowed me to get out of a marriage where I was sporadically emotionally abused & devalued during his years of serial cheating. Living fucktard-free; Time for celebration!

          How soon can you get to Austin? I can’t drink the bottle by myself, drinks start at 6 pm; I’ll grab chips & salsa & put on the Ramones.

            • I suspected you were in TX!! A few Austin chumps meet sporadically; CRHCHK is near Dallas and comes down to visit every few months; join the party! (my top secret CL email is [email protected]–let me know if you’re ready for a chump meet up.)

            • I will open a bottle of bubbly in Cali for ya.

              Cheers, to one helluva Texan for kicking ass as big as the state.

          • Hugs to you Tempest my dear friend!!!!! Let’s look at this anniversary as your new birthday. The day you got your life back. The day you got to be your real self again. A day that you can breath and say hey I got out of that nightmare. I had so many D-day’s with the ex and the first year was so very hard. The stuff I found with all the D-day’s I had with the ex was so sick that I thought I was having a out of body experience. I can and do fully understand what you are dealing with.

            Now for the good stuff I have some really nice Italian Prosecco chilling in the fridge now. I always have some in there. Austin I love Austin. The best music is there. It will take me a bit of time to get there with the flight but I’ll get there. Ha! The Ramones now that is my type of music. I saw them live many many years ago. I am now showing my age. Awesome performers. Wait if I get on a flight now I can make it by tomorrow. Ha! I’ll also bring a cake you need a cake for this anniversary. How about this one:


              • LOL with the cake! Screw work I’m coming. Damn the cost of the flight is like wow!!!!! Ok I might not have some body parts after the paying for the flight but hell what are arms and legs anyway. ha! Damn I need one arm for the wine and legs for the dancing. ha! Oh Tempest I have that email now. ha! Would it be ok if I email you?

            • (If you want to keep your body parts, a weekend where flights are cheaper is fine, too–happy to drink bubbly most weekends!).

          • “Hey Ho, Let’s Go!”
            Congratulations on your anniversary Tempest! Though I’m not anywhere near Austin (I’m in Oregon), you’ll be in my thoughts. Big hugs to you, dear one! Celebraaate!

            • Damn – how I hate a party, especially with Bubbly. But like you, Boudica, I’m also in Oregon. I LOVE Austin too!

      • Sometimes I’m thankful that my ex went so far off the tracks of sanity, no one expects or suggests I should still be friendly (or even in contact) with him. Hang in there, Tempest. As CL says, this shit is temporary.

        • GIO, I get what you’re saying. When people suggest that I reconcile or ask me if want to reconcile, I just say, ‘Oh, I couldn’t do that–too dangerous!’ and I mean it.

      • Tempest,

        Any such ‘joint friends’ are likely utter fucking mornons if they think 1 year is enough time to become ‘amicable’ with an abusive cheating asshole. 10 years, or 10 lifetimes wouldn’t be enough time. How on earth could they expect you to be friendly with this pos??!?

        I suggest you proactively tell them to get a grip and forget about inviting you if they think for one second you should be over it.

        • Thanks, Bill. I agree; so far it’s been subtle but I am starting to get mightily irritated at hints that I should start to “get over it.” I’m about as advanced in my recovery as anyone could be expected to be, and have created a fab new life. But that doesn’t mean that the bi-monthly new information about X’s serial cheating (e.g., just saw his Ashley Madison profile) don’t still leave me (a) angry; (b) grief-ridden; (c) homicidal (and not necessarily in that order). The friends who are tired of hearing about it are now at arm’s length and may disappear entirely (either my choice, or I’ll ask their tepid little souls, “Would you advocate that the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram forgive their rapists?” and they’ll avoid me thereafter). I’m cleaning house here on so many levels.

          • Tempest this off topic…but I am cleaning house myself. I have a couple friends I am distancing myself from. 1. They were supportive of my reconciliation, thats great, but now that I am filing for divorce they aren’t as supportive? ? WTF, whatever. 2. My bad, but I have realized these friends love/live for conflict and they aren’t dependable when it comes to doing activities (hikes, classes, dinner) and they guilt me “sorry I don’t want to be a bother” statements or “long sighs and silence when I call them on bailing for the hundredth time on me.” Mmmmm this is how my Stbx treated me!! Ugh – NO MORE! I am surrounding myself by people that are dependable, honest and support me ending this marriage! Thanks Chump Nation…and Chris say NO MORE! At least for me it feels awesome (a little strange though since I used to always say yes)!!:-) 🙂

            • I have experienced this ^ recently. Fuck them and everyone who looks like them!
              I have 3 really good friends who keep me strait about the whole mess… Support me… Who call him a fucking asshole when appropriate and keep their lips zipped around my daughter. My social circle has dwindled down. Thats ok. I would rather have 3 friends I can count on than 20 fucking posers.
              What I have noticed is the people who initially were fence sitters and gave him the benefit of the doubt no longer associate with him. Much like kids of divorce … .. Friends of divorce eventually figure it out… Who the fucking sane one is. Some friendships will be salvageable… Others will fade. Comes with the territory. I dont worry about it. If i am contacted by one of the fence sitters … I Say I am busy… Maybe next time. Not.

        • Bill,

          I bet you a dollar to a donut if their spouse cheated on them they would have a different way of thinking. Tempest is better off with better friends and true friends. Also they need a good slap!!!!!

  • Exactly, if your therapist can’t help your Ex wife get her poo in a pile without you, then your therapist needs to be your Ex-Therapist.

    No should be a sufficient answer. But if your soon-to-be ex therapists asks, explain it this way. She made a vow, instead of using her words and negotiating for a solution to her complaints in an adult and vow-friendly way, she made the decision to have an affair with Hector.

    Since you were not involved, nor consulted regarding that decision, it’s not really your place to help her analyze what is so broken in her than she felt it was ok to betray her family and have an affair.

    If she doesn’t understand this after 20 years being married to you, you will not be able to explain it to her in a one hour therapy session.

    • “Since you were not involved, nor consulted regarding that decision, it’s not really your place to help her analyze what is so broken in her than she felt it was ok to betray her family and have an affair. If she doesn’t understand this after 20 years being married to you, you will not be able to explain it to her in a one hour therapy session.”

      ^^^^^^^ THIS!!! ^^^^^^^

      I view that invite as “please come be responsible for someone else’s terrible, destructive choices.” How about this as a response: “Ok, I can make that never. I’m definitely free never. Does never work for you?”

  • I’m with Rumblekitty, my head is going to pop off! These cheaters need to face reality, which in most cases is nowhere on their radar! They also need to recognize boundaries, divorce is a large boundary! In most cases the chump dumped the cheater after repeated attempts to bring them back to a reality state. Cheaters chose to dig their heels in and stay in La La Land with their affair partners. We applied the necessary antidote for the cheater in the form of divorce. In other words, we usually spent months trying to “find out what went wrong” and our cheaters just ignored our requests to talk things out then. So why do they want to talk it out now? To rewrite history, place themselves in the spot marked “martyr” and make the chump apologize for forcing them to have an affair. Ummmm….I would tell the cheater and the therapist to go F**k themselves! By the time a divorce becomes final most every avenue to get to the truth has been exhausted by the chump and the cheater has been “detouring” you long enough! I just don’t think I could sit in the same room and listen to my Ex whine about make believe problems without a very large barf bag in my hands! No thanks!

      • I’m good with that Anita. It is probably pretty hard to tell the difference between the barf bag and the shit bag in the same room! Ha! Ha! Ha! They both smell to high heavens so no harm either way! An “understandable” mistake!

  • For once, I am speechless……

    Precious Chris, I have only 3 words for you:

    DO NOT GO!

    Forge on, Chris……ForgeOn, Nation!

    xoxoxoox to all………..

  • This might be unique –

    During attempted Reconciliation, the OWhore sent a letter to Fucktard (who, give him a crumb of credit, showed it immediately to me) asking to meet with him WITH OUR COUNSELOR, so she could ‘find out what is real for you.’ Seems she ‘couldn’t form normal human relationships (well, DUH!) because of the pain inside her from the affair.

    Fucktard actually seriously considered doing so.

    • ChChChChump–something similar. My X’s grad-whore (who insisted he leave his wife & two young daughters for her) went on to a disastrous marriage after the affair ended. Her now-academic-advisor is putting out the poor sausage missive that grad-whore’s emotional upset over the end of the affair is what derailed her marriage. I looked with incredulity at the person who told me and said, “Or perhaps a self-centered, immoral bitch who fucked other people’s husbands day after day after day, and advocated him abandoning his children for her, isn’t capable of a healthy relationship?” Last I heard of that bullshit.

      • Sadly, some academic advisors are really messed up and not (emotionally) smart, in spite of having PhDs.

        • True; the fact that the advisor is playing the victim card on grad-whore’s behalf galls me. I feel like sending her a picture of my kids at age 5 & 10 (when grad-slut was banging my husband) and saying “HERE are the real victims.”

  • On point and thoroughly entertaining as always CL.

    I say focus on the most important sentence that I see…..

    “Fuck that shit.” Nuff said!!

  • Chris it seems that you probably still have feelings for your ex and she knows it.Chumps care cheaters commit adultery.You can’t trust anything she says because she lacks empathy and she will probably lie.She has already slept with Hector.She,you or the therapist can’t change that she sucked Hector’s penis,his sperm and moaned during sex.Sounds graphic but it happened can’t change it.Divorce was the only option because you tried everything.The problem wasn’t you.You can’t fix someone that doesn’t have a heart.Your relationship with her will never be the same.You can’t trust or control her Chris.U tried and u failed.

  • So much, Wow! and So much Hell No!
    What is with the wanting to be friends? I wouldn’t dream of letting anyone think I am on good terms with my HasBeen. He wants to play that out for his friends and the neighbors. No, it would make it look like what he did wasn’t that bad, “see, we can all go on with life like it’s no big deal.” but it is a big deal. What she did to you is a HUGE deal. Again, what SHE did to YOU!

    I know part of you wants to go and say “How dare you! after all I did and sacrificed for our family!” but if that ever mattered it would have been appreciated when you did it. Instead you got Hectored. If what went wrong was important she would have asked for therapy when it was going wrong, not now. Did Hector leave her? Is that why she has come to you looking for kibbles (attention) and understanding? Time to turn off your “Hot Kibbles Now” sign and focus on your two beautiful daughters as well as your life.

    • AllOutofKibble,

      The ex used that “friends” comment to me also when we split up. I just laugh and thought to myself right we were never really friends. Too be honest with you he never had friends and the friends he thought he had he would talk so much evil things about them behind their backs to me and he would start so much trouble in their lives it was really alarming. So I know what his definition of friends is. His “idea” or “definition” of “friends” was way different than mine. Friends don’t cause that much pain on others and also friends do not place others lives in danger with STD’s and HIV/AIDS risk, and mental and health issues when it comes to the things he done. We normal people know what friendship is all about and these disordered people don’t have a clue.

      There is no way in hell I would ever be friends with the ex and/or other people in his life. Those days are over. I know what he is now. I never want to be around that evil asshole and his followers.

      • After d-day, my ex bemoaned that her affair would now overshadow all of the ‘good times’ we had together… Yeah, you think? Maybe should have thought of that BEFORE the lying/deceit, emotional abuse and adultery. As audacious as all such cheaters are, she was very hopeful that someday we could still be ‘friends’!

        Sure, right after I get that lobotomy.

        • In the end, erasing or tainting all those “good times” memories is as awful as the infidelity itself. Years of our entire lives are now sullied.

          • I remember horrible grief at the way my memories were changing and now had other meanings. So many memories from so long ago! Like my whole life was just a bad dream…

            • Yes! So right, Lyn. X was always bewildered by such a notion. “Everything else” was so great. Why did this one thing have to ruin it? It’s like you’re getting hollowed out with a spoon, seeing all the good times you thought you had melt away and reveal the betrayal and unreality underneath.

              • “But [my] life was so awesome before you knew I was a debauched piece of traitorous filth… Why do you have to focus on the negative stuff!” They want their cake and you’re bringing them DOWN! Not that it’s their fault anyway, right?? (Gag).

                On the flip side, eventually the relief that comes in freedom from the disordered party starts to win out. Yes, you must unfortunately acknowledge that there is an era in your life which is mostly a write-off, save some incredibly painful lessons that we’d rather not have needed to learn. But me 2.0 is SO GLAD not to be living that nightmare any longer that I often break into a chuckle when thoughts of dear cheater-pants come up. When I discovered the affair, I was desperate to fix things, no matter the cost. Thankfully, she left me anyway. Now that I’ve had time to re-assess the value of that relationship, I’d need more than a lobotomy to have any interest in reconciliation, much less amicable interactions.

        • Getting a lobotomy would be much more fun than meeting with the ex. There is not enough bleach, soap, antibacterial soap, antibiotics, rubbing alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, disinfectant cleaners, ammonia, vinegar, and baking soda in the world that could be used to make the feel it would be a clean and safe environment to meet the ex. He is one dirt nasty creep sicko.

          • *to make the room or him feel clean enough to meet with him. Sorry my phone and the autocorrect.

            He is still one dirty nasty creepy sicko.

            • No matter how the cheaters try to sterilize (or sparkle-ize) their image, infidelity leaves a repulsive aura that will hang over over them like the foul stench of rotting unicorn flesh. FOREVER.

  • Chris, if you have been to therapy then you know that this makes as much sense as asking her parents, grandparents, siblings, close aunts and uncles, other extended family members and past boyfriends to attend — so they can bring the therapist up to speed and identify where it all went wrong.

    You don’t even have an obligation to attend if your kids go for counseling.

    The sad truth is that you will never ever ever get an apology from her. I know it kills that she acts like nothing happened but these people believe their own messed up justifications for their behavior. My EX and his circle of friends were like that — even inviting me to parties at his new home and getting miffed when I didn’t attend. (Ummm, what now?)

    One thing that helped me was to put things through my own black and white “clarity filter”. By this I mean, I started to say — ‘will this be healthy for me?’ — and answer either ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

    The answer is ‘No’.

    You are mighty!


  • Dump the therapist, she should never have agreed to treat your wife. You don’t need to be in the same room with TWO unethical assholes at the same time! Jedi hugs Chris!

  • Yep, it’s an ambush. Ex wife showed you who she is, and now the therapist has just done the same. As has been said, does conflict of interest ring a bell therapist? Also in glaring relief is the therapist’s lack of loyalty to you.

    Be nice to yourself, just say no.

    I had the same request from cheater ex who was genuinely mystified why I would not want “closure.”

    Well….let’s see….you’ve been cheating, lying, and abusive in every way, Dude. You told me you were thinking of killing me, the kids and then yourself. Yeah, that’s really conducive to my trusting you in alone in a room with a strange therapist. What part of NO don’t you understand?

    Of course his spin was that I wasn’t even going to give him a chance….gag.

    In my case saying no was a good decision in light of his subsequent behavior…evil twit!

  • My ex is still trying to get me to go to therapy with him “for the kids.” Two and half years past D-day, over a year since separation, nine months since divorce. Only three months since the incident that almost led me to get a restraining order, but I wouldn’t want to talk about that and malign his reputation in public. No, I’m not sitting in a room with him. No, I’m ABSOLUTELY not paying my hard-earned money (or, heck, let’s be honest — I’m not paying out of alimony and child support either) to sit in a room with him! I have much better things to pay for. I’d rather buy literal horseshit than pay $100/hour to sit in a room with that pitiful excuse for a human being. Horseshit is good fertilizer. Conversation with him…well, I suppose it’s good material for a Lifetime drama script, but I’ve already got enough of that material to last several lifetimes.

  • I would guess (me included) we all want to believe our cheater is the unicorn. I actually had a solid therapist. No BS….. No blame shift…. well when the discussion went to polygraph to shore up the actual truth, my spouse agreed in therapy and has since said no…. needs to maintain what little self respect she has left. No more visits to therapy…. its a waste of money…. a cheater is a dirtbag….. they dont want you to know the truth…… they love to talk about why they did it and your part of it!!! Run!!! It is a set up!!!!

  • Dear “Therapist”,
    To clarify what went wrong in our marriage, my wife chose to repeatedly allow another penis into her vagina, that did not belong to her husband, i.e. me. If she needs further clarification of where I stand on the marriage, please advise client to peruse her signed and dated divorce papers.

    Have a nice McDay!

  • WOW…. Awesome!!!

    So many great responses from everyone! I had an idea that this meeting was wrong, but until I read most everyone responses – OMG!! I’m way out there and have a ways to go.

    * If I go: I’m taking these responses with me for backup.

    • Oh, dear. It seems you’re considering going. Well, I suppose it might be fun to bury her in the comments here, but I’m afraid you will come away feeling sick, angry and really sorry you went. Well, best of luck, either way.

    • You know what you should do Chris? Have a buddy take you to lunch/dinner/coffee at the exact time of that meeting.. so there is NO temptation at all.

    • Chris! You’re very busy on Monday. Very, very busy.

      I think you have stray hairs to pluck that day and stairs that need sweeping. And you must stay home and watch jello set that afternoon.

      Sorry, your calendar is full up. Send your condolences.

      Re-read every response here as necessary.

      • And if you can’t set up a lunch/dinner/coffee/golf lesson or anything pleasant………

        I would go so far as to consider scheduling a root canal or a colonoscopy – both would be better than attending this bat-shit crazy meeting.

    • LOL Chris I don’t know what to tell you to do. there’s some pretty good responses here, BUT my curiosity about what these two could possibly enlighten you about is beyond me. I think you should go just to verify you made the right decision to divorce the cheater. It might be kind of cathartic to laugh in her face. I think she will try to blame you and if your shrink is lame she may even ask if you “understand how your marriage broke down” blahblahblah. Just guessing here. It sounds like you’ve spent some time and money with this present therapist. Maybe you need verification that she/he is on your team. IDK, I think the curiosity would be worth going. You can always leave if it’s too much. JMHO. Good luck and I hope you let us know!

      • “I think you should go just to verify you made the right decision to divorce the cheater.”

        Verify he made the right choice? Um . . . . you know . . . wife fucking other people seems a pretty valid reason to me.

        • LOL your are right Rumblekitty!!! I should have said validate instead of verify. Stupid autocorrect!! My bad.

    • Chris “if” you go really mate really no good will come out with it at all. In fact, you will be even more pissed off. This mate is a set up. You are not ready for this type of mind games that the ex and the therapist will play on you. One major thing with these disordered mind fucks is that you will never ever win with in their games. The best thing to do is not to play at all. The stress alone will do so much harm to your mental and physical health. Chris you are just a few months out of a divorce and she will tear you apart. Please look at what she has done to your life so far. She doesn’t care. She never has cared. She isn’t the person you think she is. Remember the pain she caused you dear.

      Ask yourself and be honest with youself if this was one of your kids dealing with this abuse what would you do to help them out? You would want to protect yourself right? You would not want any more pain to be caused to them right? So what is the difference between you and them? Nothing. All you would be doing is setting yourself up to more abuse. Then when you are at that appointment you will be kicking yourself and asking why did I do this. Remember we all are born with free will and to be honest with you no good will come to this. You will be made into the bad guy. Walk away and don’t look back. She is what she is and she treated you the way she will still treat you.

      Save your money and have a nice dinner with some friends and go to a movie. Don’t buy into this non-sense appointment.

    • Wait, wait, wait!!!!

      Chris, I’ve got a MUCH better idea.

      Instead of *you* going, you print out this entire thread, and give it to me, and *I* will go to that session instead of you, just like when Will sent his budy to the job interview instead of going himself in Good Will Hunting.

      I’ll drop the stack of papers into the middle of the room, drop my pants and moon the “therapist,” give your ex the middle finger, demand that they both apologize to me for their not being stillborn and saving the world their aggravation, and then ask them for cab fare and to pay me a dollar because they owe me at least something for having to look at them.

      I think that plan sounds WAY more awesome than your plan to go to that session… 😉

    • Really hope you decide not to go. Maybe you are hoping she will grovel, beg for forgiveness or maybe she has had some sort of epiphany and now realizes what she has lost, what a fool she has been….won’t happen (at any rate it will not be sincere) and you will leave the session frustrated & upset. Also, you attending, shows her that you are still weak and she will respect you even less. Don’t go and no long explanations of why you are not going.

      • Good call, KB. That is exactly how it will go down.

        Please don’t go Chris. It will just be more lies, denials, minimization, gas lighting, blame shifting….the whole set of all that toxic bullshit that you’ve already been through ad nauseum.

        You cannot reason with, or expect reason from, someone who is not 100% human. You are in a better place now. STAY THERE!

    • Chris, you made it to the promised land. Why would you walk back through the Pearly Gates to descend back into hell? Just be thankful you’re in a place now where many of us strive to be. I wish I could wake up one day and have my wife be gone and my divorce be over with so that I could move on with my life.

      As another poster already said, there isn’t a single good thing that can come out of this for you.

  • Chris,

    Your ex still sees you as supply for some sick attention. She knows how to play your feelings around. These are what these Personality Disorder things do. They will always try to come back in your life in some shape or form to see if there is anything left to get from you. Then she will drop you like a hot potato when she is done with you and the pain will be even worse. She is not doing this because she cares she is doing this to use you AGAIN. It is a cycle of Wash Rinse and Repeat with these disorder beings. What she is doing is using this therapist for her best interest. Now she got the therapist believing her sad story and excuses and now the ex is playing the victim. This is what they do. The ex is not your friend. The ex doesn’t care about you and your kids. Chris, what your ex is doing is typical Cluster B Personality Disorder Relationship Cycle. It never ends with them. This is what they do. That is why going No Contact is the best. Stop it by going No Contact. She is not a good person and never will be.

    • Chris, Beth has nailed it here. It sounds like her kibble pipeline has run a little dry in her perception, so she wants to set up a meeting with you and her (emphasis: HER) Therapist so she can have “closure” (read: more kibble and “justification” for her behavior). The disordered don’t care if the kibble is from a positive source or a negative one, they are desperate to have their fix. And since they don’t have empathy, they truly don’t have a sense of shame – where you and the rest of us here would be appalled at even the thought of wanting to have a post-divorce session with our ex. Her Therapist is an imbecile for even entertaining the thought.

  • Wow.
    Seems to me a good therapist could work with your ex wife alone and get to the bottom of HER issues without CRATING ISSUES FOR YOU BY DREDGING UP MISERY WHEN YOU HAVE MOVED ON.

    DO NOT GO TO THE MEETING. Instead tell your therapist if she was EVEN REMOTELY QUALIFIED, she should ask your ex::

    What did she feel was missing in her life/relationship/marriage/family/job/social life?
    Did she make any changes / talk about it with anyone before starting the affair?
    How did the affair partner make her feel? (usually clearest sign of what cheater needs)
    What were other ways to get that “feeling” without violating marriage vows?
    Once she started the affair, did she think it was “wrong?” Did she try to get out of it? Why? Why not?
    Thinking back, what would she do differently if she could do it over?
    Given what happened, what can she do to help stabiiize her children/daughter’s lives and ensure that they are well cared for and feel loved, not in the middle of the chaos she created

    If ex answers those questions, she may have a glimmer of self knowledge. A good therapist will challenge any of her BS / shallow answers and really make her dig.


    so Chris………………………….keep moving forward,
    Tired Chump

  • The cheating filth wife is just doing what all disordered do — trying to get in a mind fuck, spin the narrative so that SHE is the victim, and create cognitive dissonance in Chris’s head so that she can manipulate him to her advantage in the future.

    My real question is why the fuck the therapist agreed to this? Is this not a HUGE breach of ethics for the therapist to have set up an appointment with the cheater? The therapist has been seeing Chris for some time now, so how is there any question of “what went wrong” in the marriage? Chris, I really, really hope you are terminating your services with this therapist immediately, because this person is NOT on your side and clearly does NOT understand a fucking thing about disordered folk.

    And for God’s sake, DO NOT GO TO THAT MEETING!

  • I think these cheaters who want to talk about what went wrong with the marriage are in reality trying to figure out what went wrong with their lives. Their house of cards has crumbled, their life is in shambles, and they’re looking for someone to blame. Chances are the affair has ended or the thrill is gone or AP bolted when part time fuck buddy became available full time. (Funny how many of them do that). Now their bubble has burst and the life they thought they wanted isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. And because they are selfish cowards with no character, no empathy, no soul, and no reflection in the mirror, other areas of their life like work, finances and social life are probably a mess as well.

    They realize that the last time life was good, or at least stable, was when they were married to a loving chump, but because they can’t take a hard look at themselves and admit they were wrong any more than they could drink poison, they have to find another reason. That reason of course, is you. They think the bad marriage is something that happened to them, not something they caused. If your X is in therapy and wanting to analyze the marriage, it’s because things are going down hill for her. I’m betting Hector is long gone and she’s wallowing in self-pity. Let her wallow like the rest of the pigs.

    • Eh . . . I highly doubt she’s the introspective sort. Dragging him to her therapists office . . . She just likes the kibbles. She wants the attention focused on her.

      Cheaters rarely look around and think they fucked up their lives. They think they’re fabulous.

      • I agree with Rumblekitty. I think for the severely disordered cheaters, there is no moment of awakening, no introspective epiphany and no rock bottom. No matter how bad it gets, they still think they are God’s gift to the planet, and anything bad that happens in their lives is someone else’s fault.

        • Interesting comment. While driving home my daughter mentioned that she that her an Hector were no longer seeing each other? Could very well be!

          Cautious I’ll be for certain….should I go.

          • “Cautious I’ll be for certain….should I go.”

            Stop throwing around passive-aggressive cloaked in woe is me shit. You know this is a trap. You’ve been given great advice by everyone here. And yet you’re still hanging this over your head? If you go – the consequences are yours and you have no agency to then bitch about how horrible it is. The choice is yours.
            (I feel you need a clue by 4 to the head, not the fluffy gloves.)

          • Chris – should you go? The answer is NO and you should find another therapist. No Contact! She already took you for one fabulous ride – do you really want another?

        • Whatever moments of introspection they may have can be attributed to “nothing much going on in their lives and need some attention”. They may, for say 3 or 4 hours, genuinely feel like they had it pretty good with you. That 3 or 4 hours is why some of us ended up in the vicious cycle of fake reconciliation. They don’t have “real” feelings, ever. They are incapable of making emotional attachments which is why they don’t have a problem screwing you over — the first time, or the hundredth.

      • GladIt’sOver: She’s definitely not the introspective sort! She all about here an now…lol! Never could see or plan for the future.

  • I would add that I think your therapist’s motivations and professionalism are suspect. Feels like a way to get more visits from you and your ex.
    Professional ethics dictate that the therapist you do what is best for you!! Re-engaging with your wife will not be best for you.
    If the therapist feels she needs more background to help your ex, she should ask you some questions and get your permission to share the answers but you do not need to be in the same room/session together doing a full on “he said” “she said.” This is one of the craziest requests I have ever heard.

    For perspective, our marriage counselor met with each of us, then met with us jointly, and then continued to meet with my cheating husband individually because SHE REFUSES TO DO JOINT COUNSELING until cheater has gone 100% no-contact. She says there is no way you can work on marriage with AP in the wings. And that the cheater has to do the hard work of stopping the affair first.

  • Going to a therapist session with the woman you divorced says, “Hi! I’m Chris! I’m still somehow invested in this shit. I still give a fuck. I think that by doing this, I’ll be able to get her to see the light, the error of her ways!”

    Quick . . . someone throw that meme up here about the barren field of fucks!

    Chris, thee has no fucks to give. You should be treating her with the same common courtesy as a meter reader passing through your back yard.

  • Chris

    You are mighty and more importantly you are divorced (for 8 months even). I can think of no good reason for you to attend a postmortem marriage counseling session. The marriage is dead and buried. Remember Pet Cemetery? Resurrecting anything that’s dead is a BAD idea that has horrific consequences. I don’t see how this would be an exception to that fundamental rule.

    If you want to understand how you can work to be a better partner; do it for you by reading self-help books or seeking individual counseling. Take those new and improved relationship skills to your next partner. Your ex doesn’t deserve anything from you except child support and co-parenting your minor child.

    As for your marriage there is no mystery as to why it ended and nothing further needs to be explored. It ended because she respected Hector and her genitals more than you. Once someone cheats, all problems in the relationship cease to exist. She didn’t tell you what was wrong (if anything) and she felt entitled to have an affair. That’s all you need to know. As for the questionable counselor and your ex? Let them draw their own conclusions about your former marriage without you in the room. Chances are pretty good they would’ve done that with you in the room. Save yourself the trouble and aggravation.

  • My STBXW tried this with me and was so pissed that my therapist would not call her back. My therapist told me that this is triangulation and a bad idea for me and my codependant issues. Later, I told her no because it is about ME and setting boundaries that I feel comfortable with, and she should work through her issues with her own therapist. You may want to look into another therapist because it needs to be about you not her and her BS.

    • Yes! TRIANGULATION. Look it up, Chris. Very, very unhealthy. Don’t go and DON’T launch into an explanation of why. As wise folk say, “No is a complete sentence.”

      • I think one thing shocking to cheaters and their whores is that they are much more “desirable” when they are in an adulterous relationship than when they are single. As we saw from the ashley madison debacle, there is no shortage of folks willing to hook up for a no effort quick fuck. Even for those who are old, fat, ugly, etc. Spread your legs and someone will land in there. But faced with the thought of seeing someone any time they want is not that great. One guy on a forum was calling his cheater wife a “hot little thing” like she was some sex symbol. But guess what? She was in her fifties. Yep, they might fuck her but that’s about it.

  • I would write a letter to the therapist and tell them you already have it figured out. Your XW has a form of restless leg syndrome, more precisely the type that doesn’t allow to her to keep legs closed for men that aren’t her husband. I’d also attach a bill for $500 for your services.

  • Chris, have you ever watched those scary movies where everyone in the audience is yelling at the kids not to go into “the house”. Well, CL/CN are telling you to stay far, far away from that meeting. The hardest word we all have trouble with is “no”. No excuses, just “no”. She is up to something. You are divorced. The only thing you owe her is to look after your children. Period!

  • Chris, I haven’t had time to read all the comments yet, but PLEASE DO NOT GO. Cancel that appointment. She cheated on you and you are divorced, you owe her nothing, nothing at all. This is just a way to try to make you take the blame and fuck with your mind (as if that hasn’t happened enough). Go on with your life, you have been handling things so well…that’s probably why your ex wants to come in and muck it up.

    Oh and by the way, you cannot be friends with someone who has screwed you over like she has. It’s not healthy, you have way more worth than that. So no, you don’t talk on the phone, you don’t recommend a counselor (especially not yours…now you have to find another one, sheesh!), you don’t share intimacies or small talk or anything else, and you don’t re-hash what is past. It can only hurt YOU. She never cared about you, sadly, and she does not now.

    This is a sign that you should move even further away, not closer. I think your ex senses that you are really moving on and is trying to pull you back. Slam that door shut…hard!

    • P.S. Oh, and Chris, I think she wants to talk about reconciliation from how you described what the therapist said to you to schedule this meeting. If not that, it’ll be as CL said, to “blame” you for what occurred. EIther way, please do not go!

  • Don’t go to therapy with a past or present cheater, unless the cheater has first undergone the years of difficult therapy to address her character flaw that made her cheat in the first place.

    Unhappy Marriages don’t cause cheating. Lack of decency does.

  • Chris, let’s play out the best scenario, you and your ex in a controlled, respectfully, mannered discussion about your past. Your ex has actually seen the light, admits to all her transgressions against you and sins against the sanctity of marriage. Your ex truly apologizes and accepts all responsibility for the damage she has wrought into your life. You can honestly feel the sincerity in her remorseful desire to just come clean to you face to face. So now the rainbow glows and you both walk off into the sunset finally having absolute closure settled.

    NOT NOT NOT THIS IS A FANTASY What the F’ ng good will it really bring to you? Will it take the pain away? Will it change your life back to normal? Will it make you feel the better one? Will you feel relief she actually gets it? Of course not, she cannot comprehend it no matter how bad she might try.

    Therefore, you don’t need to go, and if you want to go then just play all the scenarios in your head. I would bet that none of them would be worth the effort! I also don’t think you owe her any consideration, just as she has shown none to you.

    • spiritwoman: I believe you are right. It is all playing my head. This it the 2nd read of all the comments posted. Sunset will come! A new beginning will unfold because of the help of all of you and CL!!!

  • STBX has asked me REPEATEDLY to go to counseling with him while he’s dragging out the divorce! No fucking way! Its just him thinking he’s entitled to reconciliation. “To help our communication” BULLSHIT.
    I begged him to talk to me for months while we were married trying to figure out what the hell was wrong. When I finally busted him, he wanted time and space to figure things out. Now he has plenty of time and space and so do I.

    Stay strong Chris! There are so many women who will appreciate your goodness.

  • my NO to Xh’s requests to meet, talk and otherwise be friends (after 25 yr marriage/4year affair/divorced 2 years) has resulted in ongoing punishment to me.

    he changed his final narrative from chumoette is a good person, it was his fault/he has remorse… to i emotionally abused him for 25 years. every time i ignore a text or email, i get punished. when i think back on his response to other people when we were married, he would punished them too, if he perceived rejection or being ignored. he is escalating now and will likely take me back to court to change settlement. will spare details because i don’t want to feed that monster right now..

    in light of today’s post to just say no, which i embrace and practice, is anyone else getting punished for it? (am 1.5 no contact. kids young adults.)

    • Just another ploy to get your attention, Chumpette, although with your children being young adults and your divorce two years ago, it’s hard to imagine what he could try to change now. My ex is one of the ones who just left, neither kids nor I ever hear from him, so I guess we are being “punished” just in a different way.

      • Kelly – sorry he left in that way, and at the same time, i hope you are counting your blessings.

        XH wants to change it all. he is not rational these days, adding a whole new layer of mindmuck. my no contact approach is backfiring. i. want. meh.

        • It is a blessing Chumpette, I could not imagine fighting him like you have to do now! Ugh…

    • Punishment? Oh yeah…..I understand that really, really well. Narcissist have an innate need to punish you, for anything and everything under the sun (cook their eggs a little too long? oh….you will PAY for that!!!!). If there is nothing real to punish you for, they’ll just make stuff up because they have a pathological need to punish. It’s my least favorite of all their toxic attributes.

      You have my sympathy……and I get it.

  • Honestly there is probably something wrong with you as there is with me. We are not perfect people nor perfect spouses. But when I was told what I did wrong to cause the affair, my response is you my dear also were not perfect and did many things wrong. Instead of dealing with our issues, you chose to fuck someone else, lie, call me crazy etc…. the real issue is she has no morals… no character… I did not make her screw around…. she did what she always wanted to do! This has NOTHING TO DO WITH US!!!!!! I without a doubt don’t think she even had me as an afterthought last 4 years…. I was just a paycheck that was an inconvenience for her. I kept her from frolicking more. Going to these things just feeds the beast…

  • …you my dear also were not perfect and did many things wrong. Instead of dealing with our issues, you chose to fuck someone else, lie, call me crazy etc…

    Why are these cheaters all the same, say and do the exact same things as if on script? And why do these therapists pretend we have equal blame? It’s ludicrous!

    • It is scary how they all react the same…. you can even Google it…. as I always say… my denial (with all the facts staring me in the face) was her best asset!!!! looking back it was soooooo obvious!!! Followed the script you can see on any Catch A Cheater website!!! Damn Denial!!!!

      • We must have been cloned, David. But, maybe not. I was fooled twice. Two marriages to cluster Bs.

  • My stbx started treating me like shit about 2 months before dday (he knew it was only a matter of time before I found out about his fuck phone and Yahoo fun stuff. It was crazy the accusations he was making and just being a complete ass. For instance I got a weather alert at 3 am one morning and he accused me of having a secret contact list on my phone because he couldn’t read ‘the text’ (Cuz it wasn’t a text dumbass – it was a weather alert). Also – just not going to family functions, yelling at me for off the wall shit, blah blah blah.

    Fast forward to about 2 months ago and we were ‘talking’ (actually he was talking and crying and blaming me for everything) and I said to him “I knew something was up (referring to his fuck phone) because you started to become a total asshole!” His response to me was:


    OMG – I sat there stunned because instead of him apologizing for being an asshole (which he obviously knew he was treating me like shit), it was MY FAULT he was being a jerk because when the jerkness started, I didn’t do anything about it to find out WHY he was being a jerk. Does this make ANY sense? My head is still spinning from this rationale….

    • LadyStrange – that’s not “rationale,” that’s total bullshit on his part. He’s a total a douche-blossom.

  • Chris, here is a different angle that may help if you are uncomfortable with all the excellent advice here.
    You are clearly a very giving person.
    Perhaps your gut is churning at the thought of your x hurting, or maybe losing an opportunity to become a better person.
    If so, not going is the best thing you can do for her in my opinion.
    There is something she still wants from you.
    NOT getting it and having to struggle with that missing bit may one day force her to actually deal with it.
    VEry unlikely, of course, but possible.
    So you must not help her make it “all right again” in her mind
    It isn’t all right. That’s the truth. As expressed by your desire to have nothing to do with her.

    I know this is probably very chumpy and flawed logic — but it gets me to the right place.
    Whenever I’m tempted to feel sorry for my x, I reflect on the fact that boundaries, consequences and no interaction are not only the best thing for me, they are also the best gift I can give him.

    The beauty of this for me is that whether I am properly focused on my own recovery, or if I’m feeling weak, I come to the same healthy conclusion.

    Your mileage may vary but I thought if the other excellent thoughts hadn’t gotten you all the way there, there was a chance this might.
    Please don’t go.

    I’ve been divorced 4 years and was gradually getting myself to no contact by feeling my way along. I’m about 90% there. Only recently discovered CL and I feel like my recovery process has sped up 10-fold already.

    • Ohana, great wisdom from a very enlightened person. This is NOT flawed logic, far from it. This is the path to transcendence from pain and suffering.

      After my own d-day, when it became apparent that there would be no reconciliation with my ex, I became totally despondent and depressed. She blame shifted the breakup to me, due to the fact that I was unable to immediately ‘get over’ the transgressions and move past my negative feelings. I told her, in no uncertain terms, that what had happened was NOT okay, and I WAS NOT OKAY, either. After we separated, she still tried to act like nothing had happened, and the only way for me to really demonstrate that her behavior was unacceptable was to go to go the route of absolute NC.

      As you have alluded to in Chris’ case, I strongly doubt that this will force her, or any disordered cheater, to confront and work through her own emotional problems. But, at the very least it prevents her from pretending that everything worked itself out. She has to live with the consequences and that is what’s best for both people in the long term (most importantly, the chump).

      By our very nature, chump-prone individuals are giving, compassionate and empathetic people, even to those who would do us harm. This is our strength, but also our weakness. Refusing to engage with a toxic and destructive person makes so much logical sense, but emotionally it still causes us to suffer.

      Chris, as has been recommended, I must implore you to put yourself first. Even though you want to be the bigger person, in this case that means cutting off your ex and not participating in her attempts to sooth her ego. Any improvements to her emotional health from this ‘therapy’ session will doubtlessly come at your expense.

  • You don’t need a Master’s Degree in Rocket Surgery to understand the reason you are divorced is because she had a two year affair and kept at it even after you discovered it.

    And “No” is a two-letter word even Bill Cosby can understand even if he didn’t abide by that sort of thing.

  • Chris……Picture her with Hector’s dick in her mouth……now do you really want to share a sofa with her?

  • Lets get a script together, shall we?

    On Monday – you simply don’t show up to the therapist appointment. No warning, no call beforehand to say you’re not going. At the time of said appointment, busy yourself with an activity which you enjoy doing. Even if its something simple like having a beer while watching TV. Let those emotional vampires call YOU, not you chasing after them like a lost little puppy in need of care (because thats what they view you as, at the present time – that they’ll say JUMP and you’ll respond “How high?”. Both the therapist and your fuckwit ex have conditioned you this way). Its partly why I think that a lot of chumps don’t necessarily need therapy – because being slammed with this shitstorm and the resultant emotions are NORMAL for an abusive situation. There is far more harm done with therapists who pull stupid shit and set you back further, after all.

    When the therapist starts pulling their “Why didn’t you attend?” crap – you just say simply “There is nothing to discuss. She had a 2 year affair – and when given a reasonable request for reconciliation – she refused and chose the affair partner instead – thinking she could have both. Therefore, consequences are laid. I’m not interested in rehashing any aspect of said relationship as it is in the past, and said situation is extremely unhealthy on ALL levels. Further to this – you, as the therapist – are ill-equipped to recognise the lack of boundaries and lack of respect being shown in this situation by my ex, thus I have no need for your services any more. Do not contact me again.”

    If your ex pulls any shit – just ignore it. DO NOT RESPOND. Block her if you have to.

    You said your children are aware of whats going on – however, whats the situation with them? Do they support you – or are they entrenched in the nutjob shit your ex is pulling and therefore supporting her?

    You don’t need to be pulled into an arena where your nutjob ex is given agency to pull you down further. Its like standing in front of a freight train and expecting it not to run you over. Its an exercise in futilty, will not help you at all, and will instead make you feel worse. Or, will further the agenda your nutjob ex is pulling – which could have serious ramifications further down the track. Do NOT give her ammunition – its like giving a murderer a second bullet because they missed you the first time.


    • I agree about the therapy, Lania. I went about six months after the cheating, for anxiety. It didn’t really seem to help. Getting rid of the instigator of the anxiety was much more useful. I got tired of talking about myself after a few appointments. It was a novelty at first but I’m just really not much of a talker. I’ve gotten my best information from the internet, and just reading.

      • Thats right. Same deal here, actually. Getting rid of the abuser worked wonders for my psyche.
        If people require therapy to get through stuff like this – thats important. However, the therapist needs to be on your side and be knowledgeable, not out to harm you or blameshift. Therapists who do you harm are just another sucker-punch which takes a lot longer to heal from.

      • 100% agree, therapy was a waste. This site, infidelity help group, Dr Simon’s site, are the only help I needed. Time, distance, detachment are the most important factors in healing from all that awful mess, and therapy just dredges it all back up. It’s the opposite of meh. It would make me physically ill (again) to have to sit thru a session with my ex.
        Don’t go, Chris! Stay on the path to meh_

  • Ahhh yes………memories, sweet **cough**, memories.

    While I was tending to ordering his meds monthly, paying his elderly dads taxes (not w/my $), knocking myself out searching high and low for the best nursing home care for his Alzheimer dad, searching for grief groups for him to handle death of son, searching out therapists for his ADD, OCD, son grief, sons (both) not speaking to him loss issues, organizing all his ‘stuff’ (bills, home interior etc), listening to hours of bitching at 1am and after about his business or hours of consoling re: son, waking up every. single. morning. for 10 years to call him for a morning wake up call, washing his clothes when we were together, cooking, blah blah blah……..
    and he chose to gaslight, lie, and betray me, and fuck the stripper for 2+ years!! (and others for most likely the whole 10 years I suspect; figured it all out at the same time)!

    Yea, I know, I wasn’t his significant other for 10 years, I was his personal assistant with benefits!
    Now that the fog has finally lifted, I hate the **SOB** (I used so many other expletives here but decided on the **nicer** one)!

  • MyHero claimed his smelled like roses….and he was serious. But each and every morning gave me the musical number of farts in F Flat on his way from the bed to the bathroom. Boy do I miss that….NOT! No, you can’t make this shit up.

  • Oh God…trying not to tilt over in my chair. I have no idea why this musical of farts has to happen from A to B, while naked, while lifting their leg for each one fart for maximum effect? And, then laughing for each and everyone. At least my dog has enough manners not to laugh. Just glad I’m not the only one that had a stinking ‘musical’ partner.

  • Dear Chris, WHAT. CL. SAID! Every minute you don’t spend with a disordered cheating ex spouse is a GOOD one. I too have a suggestion on how to spend your one precious life (and it’s not going to that crap meeting!): Do something you love with someone who cares about you. Then know that this is what your next twenty five years should be. (Our exes had one great shot at Happily Ever After but chose crap instead so Don’t waste any more of your precious time.)

  • Chris
    I think there are just over 260 responses now – with 100% voting DONT GO!
    Have a wonderful.l weekend and stay strong on Monday!
    We all have your back and only want what is best for YOU!
    Tired chump

  • Hi Chris,
    Please do not attend this meeting. It’s a load of crap. You have divorced (awesome) you are moving on(awesome).
    Keep moving forward.
    I cannot believe that the therapist even contemplated the session. Cheaters lie, cheaters cheat, cheaters deceive…. What truth could you believe from your ex.
    Protect yourself allways
    Cheers bellzero

  • It feels like a trap because it is tempting, but you sense danger. You probably have the chump dilemma of “do I cave in for the sake of us all getting along and because I don’t want to be rude, but if I go maybe I’ll finally get some truth because this is supposed to be a ‘safe’ way to confront?”

    The therapist and your cheater both know you think this way and apparently they are counting on it. That urge to sacrifice has got to go… it is not helping you, it is being used against you. Get rid of it. Will people see you as a cold heartless bastard? Only the ones who exploit your urge to sacrifice.

    It is great that an earlier poster gave you a script, but really the script is just “no” with a lot more syllables. As someone once said, No is a complete sentence. Don’t explain why – it will only give them traction to try to override your reasoning, and that’s the LAST thing you need.

  • This is so, so good. I got one of those emails too (well several actually)…”I want to be friends to help heal my pain”…”I thought if we talked it would help me heal”. Memememememe, the focus is always on him! Well, guess what?! You weren’t there for me when I was in pain. You didn’t ‘help me heal’ – no, you were off fucking another person. Congrats! Well, now it’s your turn to deal with things on your own. Besides, not my responsibility anyway. Have a nice life.

  • Don’t do it! Most cheaters are incredibly good at manipulating therapists…..they are at the top of their game when playing the victim or pretending to want a reconciliation or sympathy or to prove that they were in the right. The goal is to get you to eat the shit sandwich, for you to take responsibility for the cheaters actions.

  • So Chris, hopefully Chump Nation has you straightened out on this matter, and you never even get to this post because you’re out having a great day or baking warm cookies for folks who deserve them, but just in case, let me throw one more response in the ring. Just happened to listen to this YouTube video from SpartanLifecoach on this very topic. He refers to folks that a narcissist/cluster b can recruit to further their agenda to control you, their image, and the narrative as “flying monkeys” like from the 1939 movie ‘Wizard of Oz’. This particular clip also laments the general denial mainstream mental health profession has about recognizing the cluster b personality and calling it out. Having been in relationship with narcs my whole life, this one really rang a bell. Just know you are mighty – even when you don’t feel like it!

  • “The only reason to go to that idiotic “confrontation” is so your ex (and probably the shrink) can get you to own what you did to make her cheat. Then you’ll have the same “understanding” and Can Be Friends For The Kids.”

    This is the truth, dude. Don’t fucking do it.

    You’re allowed to change your mind. Tell her you’re not going and that her therapy is her business.

    I would also be inclined to find a different therapist. Let them go at it.

    You don’t need this shit. Get angry and fuck it off.

  • I cannot think of a single good or even plausible reason for going to therapy with a woman who you are long divorced from to discuss what went wrong in the marriage unless you are still emotionally invested in that relationship for some reason.
    I mean – what good could come of it? Raking over the details will surely serve to set you back and re-open the pain. If you have come to terms with the past, are committed to co-parenting in a positive way, being civil, respectful and businesslike when crossing paths with your ex then why would you subject yourself to the indignity of a post mortem on why she chumped you?
    Unless you still harbour some sort of reconciliation hope then I would see it as a giant step backwards – just say NO.

  • Today is the Day! Aggh….

    Re-reading all comments again for support….leaning heavy on not going, or just walking out the moment the BS coming out of her.

    Lots of anxiety today:(

    • Just showing up is validation. Don’t go. If you walk out, you’ll feel like a dick and be perceived as one. Nothing speaks no contact like… no contact.

    • Chris–each and every member of CN is adding one piece of twine to tie you to your chair and physically prevent you from going to that therapy appointment. How often do you get 99.9999% agreement on anything? Americans can’t even agree 99.9999% that the earth revolves around the sun. Don’t go.

  • Whether you went or not is none of my business. All I can say is that your anxiety was definitely telling you something. I learned to listen to mine. I hope you can learn to listen to your gut and TRUST it. Be strong.

  • Okay, I went.

    I took heed of all the warnings, and went in with my eyes wide open.

    It started off just like what 99.9% of you said: She didn’t like the way I looked at our kids when they were born? I wasn’t there certain times? (LOL-Someone had to work – she didn’t for the 1st 5 years for each child -hung out with her mom)…I have thousands of pics of our family over the last 20 years.

    She focused on minor instances of my failings… which is fine. I never claimed to be perfect, but whatever.

    Writing this – I realize it didn’t go anywhere / although X certainly tried to insinuate every negative: So I burned the popcorn 10 years ago! Does that warrant cheating?

    Definitely revisionist History and Blame Shifting _ Mentioned this to the therapist at the end; “this is a start in communicating:/”

    * Best part of the meeting was that I hadn’t seen her since June, and I didn’t freak out, or have really any good/bad feelings! I had been doing NC since June. Some email’s/texts’ about the kids, an occasional call (gray rock talk).

    • And…..Did you tell her she was blameshifting, and nothing warranted cheating? And did you put the therapist in her/his place? Curious minds want to know that there was a moral reckoning!

    • Gee Chris, so you went and spent how much an hour to hear a woman you’re no longer married to enumerate your purported faults.

      Sounds like time and money really well spent.

      (Bangs head on wall…)

      Examine the whole martyr thing with your OWN therapist (not this quack). Seriously. Why are you a glutton for punishment? Go read Steve’s post today and be inspired about a new life. Leave this person in your rearview mirror.

    • OK, the problem I think you need to seek therapy about, and I say this out of real concern for you, is why did you think you needed to reject the advice of literally dozens if not hundreds who said this wasn’t a good idea and follow the idea of a therapist and ex-wife who don’t really seem to care about you?


      Did you not experience outpouring of care and concern for you from reading what was presented here?

      And you still went?

      I hope you were not paying for this session. If you did. PLEASE DON’T tell us.

      Get help. Not about what you may be brainwashed into thinking what you did wrong to “force” her to have an affair. Get help regarding why you were unable to take the advice of some seasoned veterans who have been in your shoes, but was instead willing to be convinced to go to this blame-shift-fest.

      For what it’s worth, I’m concerned for you. I believe others are too.

      Far more concerned for you than either your ex-wife or your hopefully soon-to-be-ex-therapist.

      Do recent events drive home this point? We, some anonymous strangers on the interwebs have demonstrated infinitely more care and concern for you than either your ex-wife or therapist.

      Please, consider that when you consider what we might advise when you present issues here.

    • PS, even grumpy cat, who cares about no one but himself, demonstrated more care and concern for you than either of the other parties in this charade yesterday.

    • Well Chris, you know what I call people who ask for advice and then don’t take it? I call them ASKHOLES… I’m not trying to be mean to you. I just think that’s a wicked funny word and a perfect use for it is this post. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to throw it out there.

      You went, your happy that’s all that matters. I wish you well in all you do in the future.

      • Kimberly: You’re right!

        I am taking the CL/CN advice and canceling the future sessions!

        I’ve continued to fall down and be a chump again and again! Thank you all for helping me break the pattern so the real healing can begin.

        • Chris – Atta boy! Good choice 🙂 Move forward don’t let your past get in the way of your bright wonderful future!

  • Chris
    I get why you went. I’m sure the comments they had came as no surprise. My simple curiosity would have compelled me as well. Sure it would have been great to be in a place of meh and not gone but that choice takes a while. But now there’s no doubt what is going on in the ex wife’s head, right?? That should be the final nail in your marital coffin. People here know what they are talking about and have nothing but your best interest in mind. They have lots of experience in dealing with these disordered types. Look I commend you for going for whatever reason. At the time it was right for you, convoluted but right. I hope armed with this new info you can move closer to meh. Good luck to you. You sound like a very kind man. Guys like you are in demand so go find someone who will appreciate it. Your ex had her chance and she blew it.

    • TRYINGHARD: Yes, I was compelled to go, and the curiosity part of my brain was spinning as to what this was all about (in the end-mind games and more confusion for me).

      I emailed therapist an hour ago. I cancelled all future appointments: She called X to cancel, as I had no intention of calling her.

      From now on I know I’m in good hands on CL!!!

      Thank you all for getting me to the next stage of recovery.

      • Chris
        Yes the curiosity would have gotten the best of me too. I’m just chumpy like that 🙂 But too much curiosity can definitely kill the cat as the saying goes.

        You be kind and good to you. You owe her NOTHING. I have no opinion on your therapist. Maybe they felt you needed the in your face confrontation to get you to move on. Who knows. Therapists can be weird too. During MC our therapist offered up being able to mitigate an impending divorce for us. I wasn’t there for that purpose. I set both him and her straight about why I was even there. You def have to be the one in charge of your own therapy. Sometimes they give advice that goes against our own good sense and it is we as the patient that has to set them straight as to what our goals are in therapy.

        You will be fine. I just know it. Love yourself, love your family and friends. Enjoy your life and be grateful you are no longer in the ex’s drama orbit!

  • It’s a thing of joy to have someone on earth who God almighty has sent to redeem and help those that are in captivity. My husband divorced me but Doctor Osemu Okpamen recently saved my broken marriage again. You can find more on my blog-post here ( ) about how my marriage was reunited. Wagner Jessi, UK, Hampshire.

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