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UBT: He blew up the marriage to improve it

blowupA submission here from “Deaun” to the Universal Bullshit Translator that was too fucked up to pass over.

According to my counselor [the affair] was a subconscious way of blowing up our marriage to improve it. It was physiological, my brain enjoyed the dopamine.

I’m assuming from the “my brain enjoyed the dopamine” Deaun is the cheater here? If so, I give him props for submitting his therapist’s get-out-of-remorse-free bullshit. On the other hand, there’s enough therapy quackery that I wouldn’t be entirely shocked if some asshole counselor told a chump that no, they secretly enjoyed their betrayal. Subconsciously of course. You can’t prove shit if it’s subconscious.

But more likely what we’re dealing with here are two tenets of Reconciliation Industrial Complex that always need debunking —

1.) Affairs improve marriages.

2.) Affairs are addictive.

According to my counselor [the affair] was a subconscious way of blowing up our marriage to improve it.

Okay, for your next therapy appointment I’d like you to bring a bucket of tar and pour it all over your therapist’s office. If he complains, tell him you were just destroying his office in order to improve it. And hey, that was an ugly sofa anyway.

If he gets upset, tell him your urge to pour a bucket of tar all over his office was subconscious. I’m super sorry it resulted in actual damage to his office, but hey, subterranean urges — what can you do? Heck, we probably evolved to have them.

Shrug. Don’t apologize.

It was physiological, my brain enjoyed the dopamine.

My brain enjoys dopamine too. Especially the dopamine that is released when I eat German Christmas cookies. Put me around a plate of lebkuchen and I cannot be responsible for my actions. I fucking LOVE lebkuchen.

We’re dealing with a dopamine high here. If those cookies did not want to be eaten, then they shouldn’t have looked so alluring with their green and red sprinkles. Should I stop eating lebkuchen and fit into my pants? Let me ask you something — do you think carrot sticks release dopamine? Or lunge squats? Or those sugar-free protein bars that taste like glue and cat litter? NO. NO DOPAMINE.

I DESERVE my feel-good lebkuchen high. Fuck the cost! Fuck my pants!

My lebkuchen cravings are physiological.

And they’re probably subconscious too. Excuse me, I have to end this column now. I hear the cookies calling me.

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  • And all this time I thought he was relying on fortune cookies and his daily horror-scope to piece his life together.

  • It’s the attention they get and believe they deserve — the kibbles and cake — that provides the dopamine. In her occasional lucid moments, Kunty Kibbler would even acknowledge that.

    That’s why I find it so amusing that she hooked up with Creepy Writer as the person she decided she “loves so deeply and completely” after only 3 months. Based on the text threads I was able to see, he’s as craven and self-absorbed and in need of endless kibbles and cake as she is.

    • Same here UX, soon after D-Day i asked her…

      If all her problems go away when she was with AP – Yep
      Why she cheated – I made her feel invisible and couldn’t give her the attention she needed.

      Her new BF sounds as self absorbed as Creepy Writer, early on when me and the ex were still friends on FB (Still shake my head that i didn’t block her on D-Day!!). A lot of photos I’ve ever seen of him he has his top off, driving a flashy car etc…

      They sound like a pair of attention seeking twats! Maybe they’ll give each other the attention they crave or maybe they’ll just implode into a ball of fucked-upness!

      • Mickey, sounds like she’s dating my X or a clone. X loves to have pictures taken of him without a shirt or wearing tight fitting workout clothes preferably cycling ensembles, with matching accessories. His AP he met on a business trip in the hotel workout room is a triathlete, attorney, college professor. X was smitten with her ability to participate in triathlons almost monthly and felt she was his soulmate. X began participating in triathlons with AP but sadly her triathlons, workouts and other attention seeking events conflicted with his.
        X joined dating sites and while AP was out competing he found someone who he didn’t have to compete with and dropped AP for a someone much younger and who would worship him and listen in awe at all his accomplishments.

        • Seriously? They are an empty shell of a human being. They have NO IDEA what they want. Whatever fills the hole works. And as soon as it doesn’t, on to the next.

          I would rather live with some depth and authenticity. Let them go be pathetic on their own.

          • I meant the hole of their soul, but if you thought the other…well, that works, too, if you are dealing with an XW.

          • I forgot to mention I found him on dating sites while he was with AP. His profile on the dating sites would make me feel embarrassed for hm. Besides the lies such as he loves to go to concerts, I was with him 25 years and we never went to a concert.
            Another was he loves weekend getaways? he hated to leave the house for a few hours he’d protest if I mentioned going someplace over night. He mentioned a couple songs.., of which he told me he hated. His profile photos were of him flexing his muscles or posed so his arms looked bigger than they were. Cheesy remarks to go along with his photos. If I didn’t hate him so much I would have been laughing hysterically. . Hard to believe anyone single, reading his profile after seeing his photos would consider him.

            • Yet people do get involved with them. It boggles my mind. And then I remember that I spackled and put up with it for years. Working on my picker…

          • I asked my STBX before he left, What do you want? He just looked all pathetic and said, “I don’t know!” Ugh

            • I’m trying to keep myself from contacting him and having a VERY hard time. But I’ve also asked STBX what he wants and his answer was “Happiness. I see other people that have 100% happiness in their relationship and I want that.” Uh, NO! There is NOBODY in a REAL LONG TERM relationship that is 100% happy with their partner. THAT is a ? It DOESN’T exist. My aunt and uncle (who he previously held up as his role model) have been married almost 30 years. My mom asked my aunt the other day “How many of those years have you been 100% happy?!” And my aunt said ZERO! It’s just NOT real! I don’t know if it’s Facebook & Instagram poisoning his mind or just the “You’re the nicest person I’ve ever met! I LOVE YOU!” shit from the whoremat that have messed him up or what. But he’s gone nuts and run off after a delusion. I asked him, “Was it worth it? Was the cheating worth this?” And he said, “Cheating was not worth anything like this at all. And I’d take it back in a fraction of a second. Cheating isn’t worth anything ever. Obviously it was absolutely not worth it whatsoever.” SO FRUSTRATING and sad.

              • Dear Shelby

                Hope you are holding up during the Xmas season.
                What your Stbx was talking is pure 100% ‘ bullshit’

                The only reason you are listening to it and feeling sad is because you are still in the throes of the pain inflicted upon you.

                Pls remember that he has harmed you and he tried the ‘ false remorse ‘. He talks BS – so that keeps you confused.. The truth is that he harmed you on purpose- with intent. He knew what he was doing and believed that it was worth the time and effort – to cheat. Keep the NC going .

                If he tries to Hoover you back,Wear ur highest heels , my dear and kick him where it hurts and tell him that the act was ” totally worth it”

        • I think a pairing of self absorbed worshippers works for them especially if they have an entourage of similarly shallow courtiers. They all take selfies and pictures of each other, they are all wonderful, etc. It doesn’t matter if they are also irresponsible, sensible people all around pick up the slack and they get by. It can work like that for years before the cracks become too wide and there are too many debts. What they can’t bear is when the responsible people who sweep up their mess dare say something. If we just carried on being faithful QUIET servants, everything would be just fine.

            • You see the “look at me’s” at marathon and triathlon events, the posing for photos, cheesy smiles.., fake exaggerated laughter, along with fake modesty.

              Let’s not forget the matching fluorescent biking ensemble with matching accessories, shoes etc.. I’m speaking of the men I’ve seen.

              I’m sure there are others who participate who aren’t the “look at me’s”
              Look at any triathlon or marathon web site of photos and you’ll see them.
              From my observation they’re usually men of the mid-life cycle age.

              • Brit this is spot on! I LOL’d…

                My ex has suddenly become “Cyclist of the year” She hated cycling when we were together…fast forward 3 years and her BF is lycra wearing bafoon, surprise surprise so is she!

        • “listen in awe at all his accomplishments” – I was doing just that!

          Mine? Who cared for mine. Changed two countries and learned two more languages and found jobs and great friends and raised a son in both…who cares. Noone listens to them in awe. Because noone talks about them right and left.

          • Lontimechump, I recently realized the same thing. “listening to him ramble on in awe” I had X on a pedestal, our conversations were always about him. Even when we were with other people
            It never occurred to me that my upbringing would interest anyone.
            I was born in a foreign country made several trips to the US by ship before I started kindergarten. We lived overseas until I was eleven, moved to the US with moves to several states all within a few years until we moved to the Philippines.
            In contrast he lived in the same small town his entire life. He cold go on and on about the summer his parents took the family to Disney world and the one summer they rented a cabin on the beach in New Jersey for a week and sadly I could tell you almost every detail and I wasn’t there.

        • That is a delightfully happy story, Brit. Narcissist dumps narcissist. My cockles are so warm.

          • I thought so Dubious, you would enjoy it even more if you were to see their pictures. (ha).
            They’d make a great comedy skit for a program like Saturday Night Live or Jimmy Kimmel.

    • Like speaks to like.
      My ex found his own family destroying self absorbed equal.
      May they stay together forever…

    • Also very good about this ‘addictive’ nonsense are the articles on the Infidelity Help Group concerning affair fog and all that hokum.
      Although you know it’s nonsense it’s nice to have places where it is all spelled out in clear plain English that cheating is a choice and points to deep character flaws.
      Any therapist not tackling it this way will be liked by the cheater but ultimately doing them a grave disservice- not that the cheater will mind. Only chumps get hurt.

    • I wondered if my ex would actually be happier with Schmoopie, once I kicked him out. I didn’t know much about her (nor did I care to know), but he did reveal that her previous marriage had ended due to her cheating, and I knew she’d actively hit on a married man, so I figured there was a good chance she was a narc, too. So I thought, maybe they’ll sit around telling each other how wonderful they are, and how awful other people are, and how all their problems are caused by others, and they’ll go out and spend money and look fab, and be fine! No annoying nuisances like kids, responsibilities, partners who expect you to act like an adult. Might be great for them.

      Of course, Schmoops wasn’t satisfied with all that, grass is greener, etc. Dumped him for another man. Twice.

      Now he has a new girlfrend, grabbed her on Match within a week after being dumped by his twu lurv, and within three weeks they were in a ‘serious relationshp’. Hope she strokes his ego really really well, because he causes me a lot less trouble when she does! And I figure that, as long as there’s plenty of money to go around and nobody has to make any sacrifices, it might even work well for him.

      • Karen, His life will be one big revolving door… Never satisfied. Thank goodness he is outta your house and hopefully soon he will take up less headspace, too. Life gets so much better without that drama.

      • KarenE – sounds like Lusty McSparkles, while I’m not exactly sure who he is currently banging (nor do I care), his harem are so delightfully narc disordered – that I feel I’m riding the Karma Bus already.

    • My X complained about not feeling “loved”, “special” or “trusted”. Ironic then that she cheated on me with a guy with NPD and who is therefore incapable of love, treats her as narcisstic supply (and won’t even acknowledge their relationship to anyone) and is a compulsive liar….

      Cheaters delude themselves to give themselves permission to cheat. It’s not about the person they cheat with, it’s about the delusion….

  • What on earth are they teaching these marriage and family therapists in school? The pure garbage we hear some therapists touting is unbelievable. There must be a special educational path they can choose called “Victim Blaming + Telling Them What They Want to Hear = Profit”

    • FBO, I’m with you in the failure of MCs. I know mine was terrible (her “wisdom and advice” were so ridiculous that they made it into CL’s second book).

      But the MC I saw, and the one before that, at least outwardly believed she was somehow helping. The first MC really appeared to believe that telling my wife to continue her affair “while we figure this out” was marriage-saving advice. And the second MC really appeared to believe that discussing introducing an open marriage after D-Day #4 was a productive course of action.

      I think, frankly, very few of them have a fucking clue as to how healthy relationships actually work, so they throw whatever spaghetti they an at the wall, believing something will stick.

      That’s not educated, experienced counseling. It’s haphazard, improvised bullshit…of which Inwas already getting enough from my wife.

      And we PAID for this!

      • I wish marriage counselors on the whole would stop coming at infidelity like conflict mediators (“Your views are all legitimate, now let’s find a middle ground solution that works for everyone!”) and start tackling accountability (“What is it in you that is OK with betrayal? What is it in *you* that is willing to accept betrayal?”)

        You know what I got from our counselor, who we were seeing when D-Day #1 hit? She told me that feelings lie. That what we feel isn’t reflective of what is actually true. This quackery is what allowed me to bridge the growing cognitive dissonance between what what I could see going on around me and my internal reaction to it. This is what convinced me to listen only to what my ex said, and to smack down the little voice in my head that shouted “this isn’t right!” Feelings lie, the professional told me so, so if I want to save this relationship I’d better shut up that lying internal voice and dance pretty.

        What the therapist SHOULD have told me is that my feelings are telling me something my brain doesn’t want to accept, and that I need to focus on what I know, not what I hope for. Had she worked me through that, had she given my inner voice volume rather than muted it during our sessions, I never would have put everything on the line for that cheater. She failed me by telling me that garbage, and I failed me by believing it.

        By the time the last D-Day hit, I could no longer convince myself that my feelings were lying. I was ANGRY. I was SAD. I was a glowing, buzzing ball of rage and nausea and volume. Since that day, I have trusted my feelings when they tell me something. My feelings are my guideposts for setting boundaries. My feelings tell me what *I* need. My feelings are reasonable and human and deserve a voice.

        The whole neutrality thing in marriage counseling is a mistake, and I wonder just how many lives have been ruined by that nonsense.

        • Funny, if we did that to the cheaters (your feelings lie), the bloody MCs would surely accuse us of invalidating their wittle feelings…

      • The problem is the only people that should be marriage counselors are former chumps! They are the only ones that KNOW what it’s like. Nobody KNOWS what the PTSD feels like unless they have been through it. They don’t understand the triggers. Sure you can read about it but until you are actually IN the grocery store SOAKING in sweat, dry heaving and SOBBING over cat litter because your entire life has fallen down and your husband abandoned you and now you don’t have someone to help you carry your groceries and you might soon not even have enough money for those groceries, you don’t KNOW what it’s like. You can only give shitty platitudes and say well he was confused, well it had nothing to do with you. Well it was what it was. NOT good enough! It WASN’T ME! It WAS all him! But they don’t know shit!

          • Exactly Sad Shelby, most of therapists can’t even imagine the crushing heartache being betrayed by the person who we loved and trusted the most in the world.
            They go by text book cases they’ve read or blanket judgement or fall into being manipulated by the boyish smiles, humor their feigned sensitivity or empathy .
            Therapists should have more training on Narcissism, I watch Narc manipulate one we went to. Talking to the therapists about baseball, flying airplanes. Not at all the real personality of X but the therapist fell for it and X knew exactly what he was doing.

      • @JC “…And the second MC really appeared to believe that discussing introducing an open marriage after D-Day #4 was a productive course of action. …”

        I can imagine the mortification, but the MC’s approach does make sense, in a way. After 4 D-days, it seems pretty unlikely that cheater will change their ways; even if they tried, who would believe this will last, and bet their happiness on it? Agreeing on an open marriage instead would acknowledge that reality; it would remove the need for lies and deceit, and if both partners could in fact live in an open relationship, this would seem better than continuing the cycle of “renewed commitment” and betrayal.

        Sure, few people are actually o.k. with the idea of an “open marriage”; I’m sure I couldn’t live in one. However, since you were still willing to visit MC after D-Day 4, as opposed to going straight to a lawyer, MC may have assumed you to be rather forgiving and understanding, and thus amenable to their suggestion.

        Again, I understand and sympathize with your reaction, but at the same time I think the MC had a point.

        • Mike, this: ” Agreeing on an open marriage instead would acknowledge that reality; it would remove the need for lies and deceit, and if both partners could in fact live in an open relationship, this would seem better than continuing the cycle of “renewed commitment” and betrayal.”
          Exactly my case, I believe. Talked about it with the cheater today who said he was always “untraditional” and was not going to exchange his freedom even after marriage. He always lived “this way, it was not about sex and women, but ultimately about his freedom which he was not going to compromise. Fine. Maybe then it’s wise to inform your future spouse about it before the wedding, and not 12 years after multiple DDays? Maybe then just have the balls to acknowledge this truth about yourself rather than constantly criticise and accuse your spouse of her looks, weight, jobs, insecurities, jealousies, black-and-whiteness, boringness, inability to connect emotionally and lousy sex? Maybe then stop finding faults with the other and just say that your DNA is different? Say the truth? Instead he wooed me back into the wreckonciliation and i now feel double-betrayed after all the promises in the summer that vanished into the air.

          He said today, “Well, you know the truth now. I still sense you don’t want to divorce me!” I said, ” you are right. Divorce was never a part of my agenda. But I don’t see any other option. I can’t in an overnight become a new age spiritual open-marriage accepting person. Still too traditional. Sorry. I choose divorce.”

          You know…they won’t admit it. They don’t want to because the cake is delicious. They are also afraid of public opinion. No matter how bold they seem. Mine is now after me trying to prevent me speaking with people and disclosing things about him. He says don’t spread bad words about me. But these are not bad words, these are the reality. Just admit it and move forward.

          Happy New Year to all. For the newcomers, find your Chump Lady/Gent this year. For those who have been here for a while, I wish you find your Meh this year. January 3rd is Tuesday!

          • Don’t spread bad words about me. That makes me SO MAD! If you don’t like the truth you probably shouldn’t be living that way! If your actions embarrassed you then it wasn’t something you should have done! GRRR!

          • Longtimechump, you are completely right, of course, it is unfair to change the rules of the game half-way through. But still, at some point it may be the only alternative to divorce (which will usually be the healthier option). Good luck to you. M.

    • Far better off
      Unfortunately in the uk at least there is no special training for dealing with infidelity as part of general counselling courses. And therapists are trained to be ‘on the side’ of their client.
      Where there are ‘gaps’ in training a great many therapists cobble together any old shit, if I can speak plainly.
      I have no experience of marriage guidance counsellors in the uk so they may be great but I have my doubts.
      As chumps we need to find a therapist we trust and who speaks sense to us.
      Cheaters, being predisposed to getting away with lies and bad behaviour will stick with shit therapists because it suits them to sit back and let the therapist excuse them.
      Maybe it is different in the US?

      • “outsourcing a bit of sex can be good for a marriage” said our MC. Traitor loved her. Said it was the only place he felt safe. I was in tears every fucking session, in tears at home, this shit went on for nearly a year and HE only felt safe there (and with the whore at the same time but I didn’t know then, until I got the VAR).
        Ditch the MC, do some snooping and learn how they truly speak of you to the AP.

        • Kiwichump, I was astounded when LM agreed to MC – but boy was he nervous (fear of being told off). He needn’t have worried – no sense of being held accountable ever went on in counselling.

  • Yes, my ex kept talking about how it was all subconscious too: apparently he was sleepwalking into prostitutes and bar girls for over two decades.

  • He didnt need a therapist to tell him these things, he could come up with it on his own – with the help of his trusty sidekick OW.

    I was told that OW was going to “reach him to love Unicornomore” and on his way to leave for a business trip (where I later found out he bunked up with OW) he sat on the side of the bed (likely deeply contemplating how to blame me for this latest round of betrayal) and said “yea, we are going to have to divorce and later remarry in order to get to where we need to be” ’cause of course I would sit around and wait for that.

    Turns out, God wasn’t willing to sit around and wait for that. Who knew?

    • Cake cake cake. I think a lot of that contemplating is where they try to figure out how they can have you AND what they want right now. When the lies stop working, then they figure they will “take a break” or “clear their heads” or, in your case, take a little time off of marriage, but of course you’ll be there when they get back, so it’s all good. That’s in the Cheater handbook, as well. A lot of us chumps consider accommodating that shit, too, counting the days, weeks, years until they will come back to us. Hah! Fuck that shit. Ditch the cheating asshole and claim your life. If you need a counselor to help you figure that out, THAT might be worth your rime and money–not saving something that never was.

    • I got a similar speech from my tall glass of poop juice. We’d divorce, he’d have unicorn party fun time with cocksocket, and “when that ends” (his words) “we can get married again” (also his words).

      I think they get so used to OW being so willing to share, they think that the BW is equally desperate, errr, accomodating to keep them. Hence stupid speeches about future remarriage, etc. As if nothing happened in the interim, a shoulder shrug and sincere “oopsie” will cover it.

      He was shocked when I left his stupid ass, no forwarding address, save for my lawyer. Yeah, he sucks so much that he fucking sucks.

  • Silly cheater, “it was psychological” is no excuse. The affair (and your disregard of the harm it caused) is evidence of the *psychology* of your make up. Selfish, heartless, craven. That evidence proves you are a jackass.

    If you were a German cookie, you would be full of sauerkraut and frustrated dreams of world domination.

  • Serial Cheating made my Cheater a Better Father.

    No Joke. Actual Words in an actual MC session. Then the retraction: “I’m allowed to have ‘caveats’ in my marriage.”

    Therapists or idiots (perel) who claim affairs make a marriage better are:
    * Cheating themselves on their SO’s
    * Have never had a traumatic betrayal in their significant, primary relationship
    * Hold any degree whatsoever from ITT or a for-profit ‘uni’ like TRUMP U in the area of underwater basketweaving which makes them a Relationship Expert with the ability to consult and offer psychological therapy to the disordered
    * Have a time-share at a Hedonism Resort that they need to off-load

    • My cheater was a better husband to me when in a marriage-long relationship with the AP. That’s what he told me: Well, in fact, our relationship was much better when the AP was part of my life. It started deteriorating when I finished with her (the reality was that she finished with him choosing her career over him and so he found another soul-siren but had always other fuck buddies on the side)

      Cake, frosting, fruits, custard cream, chocolate- delicioso!

  • First, I’m a therapist and would never say anything akin to that. Ugh!

    Second, it’s all so familiar, flashy cars, flashy people, no regard for families or children.

    I always feel at home reading here….and it makes me hope to eventually meet a fellow chump (guy) ….

    • You must be sickened by how many lousy therapists are out there. We had one mc who was smitten with my adorbs cheater and believed every word that came out of his mouth, then admonished me for being so untrusting of him. This was 2 weeks after dday. She couldn’t fathom anyone paying top dollar to her to then lie. So, she chose to just bat her eyes and believe him, and tsk tsk me as I stared at her with my jaw on the floor. I just got up and left, which proved to her that I was bitter and unwilling to compromise or worse, applaud the fact he was in an mc’s office at all. I thought I was going insane.

      • Hale.
        I am a therapist in uk and yes I knew even before I was a chump how bad some therapists are. I trained with some and had others as my therapists. There are utterly brilliant ones too though (ahem) but you do need to choose with extreme care. This is your psyche you are handing over so it is only wise and sensible to be extremely picky.

        It’s a tough problem. Lots of therapy courses earning money. Lots of fucked up people that only want to help others as a way of fixing their own issues. Lack of regulation. Lack of honesty quite frankly in calling out bad therapists – as a bunch, very polite, not into conflict particularly.

        It is almost impossible to get a therapist who is ineffective or dangerous to follow your way of thinking when they just turn everything back on you (ask me how I know). It’s in large part smsoke and mirrors. If you have a great friend, relative or trusted other who speaks sense, has time, then you have all you need.

        Therapy isn’t magic. It’s a chat with a trusted other who helps you see issues clearly so you can decide how you wish to proceed.
        You talk, the therapist helps spot patterns and gives you a safe space to explore your thoughts and options.

        There is a bit more to it but that’s it in a nutshell.

        • The Fucktard ex was a prominent researcher and clinical psychologist. Being a narc also, he could run circles around quite competent therapists. I had to dig seriously deep to find a MC who was not swayed by his credentials, reputation or charm. For individual counseling, I got a therapist recommended by the domestic violence center who had LOTS of experience with entitled assholes and the destruction they leave in their wake. I agree that what many chumps have experienced at the hands of a disordered cheater is far beyond any required training, and more often than not beyond the experience of experienced therapists. Finding the right one is worth the effort.

  • LOL!!! Mine tried to sell me that crap. I did not buy it.

    A few weeks after he left and was negotiating his return in a blaze of glory he said that ” the relationship needed a hard re-set”.

    I wanted to laugh. He was so earnest. Instead I said nothing but I thought…..

    -a ‘hard re’-set’? He is comparing our marriage and family life to a computer?

    -He would justify the excruciating pain and torment he put his family through as ultimately necessary for us to be happy long term?


    After my pause I said so that justifies doing this to your children and wife. His reply ‘well we were both destroying each other’. (let’s share the blame, shall we? I do shit and You get upset…shared blame. Getting upset is ALWAYS wrong!)

    No future faking for me bro. Keep it moving!

    • Hard reset? Like with a sledge hammer? Is that hard enough? Slammed into a brick wall? How about frozen in carbonite? I can think of so many good HARD resets!!

      • Control, alt, delete and then unplug the pesky marriage for 30 seconds. Wait. Plug in, reboot. TA DA! Simple!

        Newly hard-reset marriage and you didn’t even have to wipe the disk (erase all traces of past files, lies and lives ).

  • This has hit my sore spot – Therapists that excuse abusers and keep chumps stuck. Sometimes I wonder what they tell victims of domestic violence, something like … he didn’t mean to punch you in the face he was just trying to get your attention … ? or maybe, he punched you in the face because he was trying to improve the marriage and by the way, he loves the dopamine release.

    Oh how I wish I hadn’t listened to the people who told me to fight for my marriage, or the therapists who did absolutely nothing to help me get away from that monster. So much of my young life wasted on an alcoholic, cheating piece of shit.

    • yea….the believers. After the first time in the marriage I told him to go. I told my mother who said…you know how men are. I said to her these are different times. Some STIs don’t go away. Later I heard “think about the children”. All the while I was growing increasingly disgusted and had lost any respect for him. When he spoke I gave it no credit. His opinions did not matter. I concluded that his judgement was flawed and I could not trust it. He could do no right by me. That is what his betrayal engendered in me. Complete loss of respect.

      I think we are conditioned to think that marriage will have tough patches and that you rally all irregardless of the nature of these challenges. And in the movies the parties often go off to someone else then happily reunite (for the last five minutes).

      But hear what! Ill-treatment of your spouse has not part in marriage. NONE. And if people left at the first sign of disrespect persons would have to think alot harder and longer before entering into marriage in the first place. Society overlooks/rationalises too many bad behaviours in adults that we’d never over look in children.

      • Marriage does have rough patches and real actual adults try to get through them to maintain the marriage. Idiot fucktards run off to some whore because shit got hard. I don’t think all marriages are difficult. Some people just don’t have emotional depth and some people just have easy lives however when shit goes wrong your spouse made a legal vow to be there for you!

    • Chumped chip.
      In my opinion the sooner affairs and infidelity are seen as domestic abuse the better. Then I believe therapists will shift wholesale their perspective on cheating and may even become useful to chumps.

      • Ding. Ding. Ding. How can we push for this/effect change in this area, Capricorn????

        • Nikki
          I fear it might be a slow process. I’m thinking about how long it was accepted that domestic abuse was between man and wife, not something that need concern others.
          I work primarily at the moment with survivors of recent / historical child sexual abuse and it’s very disheartening to realise that even today so many ‘experts’ such as therapists, social workers and health professionals fail children. Some professionals seem unable to conceive of ‘evil’ people and I use that term as a trained scientist (well psychologist) and non religious person.
          They fail to recognise that some individuals have no functioning conscience and enjoy causing pain, harm and disruption.
          I’m still pondering this myself but have thought about starting a network of therapists who are fully Chump Lady knowledgeable.
          I think the only advice I would give is to steer clear of marriage counsellors and find an individual therapist you ‘click’ with.

          • In the uk in 2015 we recently passed
            new laws concerning Controlling or Coercive Behaviour in an Intimate or Family Relationship. This covers all kinds of controlling behaviour and is intended to ‘catch’ domestic violence that is not ‘violent’ per se.
            With websites like CL it may be faster to change the thinking around infidelity but there are so many people at it I think this may be one of the problems. Cheaters who are in positions to change thinking about infidelity may be cheats themselves and prone to justify and minimise their own behaviour. I think that’s why ‘society’ has a difficult time changing its mind about infidelity. Cheaters have the upper hand so far.

            When I found out my divorce lawyer was divorced I had to ask if he was a cheat. I would not be able to work with him otherwise (he said not…).

            Too many people have personal reasons for not seeing infidelity as abuse.

            • Cap, thank you for that informed perspective. I’m like a mother who lost a child and who adopts a cause to fight for so that the loss is not all for none.

              I think you are right about this:
              “Some professionals seem unable to conceive of ‘evil’ people and I use that term as a trained scientist (well psychologist) and non religious person.” I swear, until recent months, I did not know people like this existed — and had I not lived it — I don’t know how I would respond to someone just telling me a story such as mine.

              And this:
              “Cheaters who are in positions to change thinking about infidelity may be cheats themselves and prone to justify and minimise their own behaviour.” I agree. For starters, it’s the so-called reformed cheaters that lead the way in the sex addiction recovery world. So, wtf? Of course, they are going to lobby for treating the cheater like, as ChumpLady says, “a timid forest creature.”

              I’ll continue to ponder all this. Probably not worth my time but I would really like do something meaningful to help — even if it’s simply volunteering at a women’s shelter . . .but I would really like to effect change in the treatment/therapy world . . . Somehow, someway.

            • Capricorn, that is so great! I’ve been reading on that they are also encouraging psychologists, therapist, counselors, etc. to learn about the reality of abusive relationships with pathologically disordered people to be able to better help those abused rather than ‘victim blame’ or dismiss their problems out of hand for whatever reason. A light at the end of the tunnel!

              My mother suffered at the hands of my father for 21 years…she had no one. In those days, as you said, people believed that the husband ruled and the wife obeyed, period. There was not one soul that helped my mother with her burden. The day she finally left him for good was a wonderful day for her and her 5 children.

              I suffered at the hands of satan for the last 5 years of our 36 year, 30 married relationship. Looking back now from the safety and serenity of my freedom, I realize I was manipulated and controlled, groomed, for the entire 36 years. I channeled my mother, I’m sure, until one day I said enough. He beat me 4 times…the 4th time I called 911 and they took him away. It was over. Shortly thereafter I found Chump Lady and Chump Nation and my healing started. My healing started because I finally understood what I was dealing with. And, because I found this community of people that had been through the same insanity…I realized I wasn’t crazy…he is.

              Yes, the truth that Tracy speaks needs to be heard and heard loud and clear everywhere. Leave a cheater (disordered monster), gain a life!

      • We did see a therapist after I filed, when we were trying to work on a parenting/visitation arrangement, who said right up front, “affairs are sexual abuse of your partner.” I liked that guy!! Not surprisingly, STBX did not. No progress was made. When I met with him alone, he told me that I had to get STBX out of my house (he refused to leave for 9 torturous months!) before I would be able to begin to address the abuse/C-PTSD.

        • Yes, my therapist said there are worse things than divorce and that you can’t rebuild trust with someone still lying. X met with him once and said he was stupid. Later, therapist helped me with EMDR to eliminate panic attacks.

            • Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) therapy is an integrative psychotherapy approach that has been extensively researched and proven effective for the treatment of trauma. EMDR is a set of standardized protocols that incorporates elements from many different treatment approaches. To date, EMDR therapy has helped millions of people of all ages relieve many types of psychological stress.

      • I wholeheartedly agree Capricorn. The sooner affairs and infidelity are treated as domestic abuse and the public learns that domestic abuse encompasses verbal, mental and emotional abuse, the better off we will be. The fact that these abuses are not even discussed, let alone understood is a travesty. Fortunately my therapist understands and has tremendously helped me over the last few years. To think I started seeing my therapist to save my marriage (Ex refused to go because there was nothing wrong with our marriage) and she in turn made me see just how abused I was by the infidelity. It was with her support and that of friends and family that I left. If not for her I would be but a spec of the person I was. I’d still be living with him and my children would have thought that what we were modeling was a healthy marriage. I’m thankful every day that we left.

        • Margo
          I think more therapists would be effective IF SEEN ALONE. Then they will listen and see the damage. If the narc is in the room the chances that these master manipulators would be spotted is close to none unless you are lucky.
          One of my friends was accused by a student of inappropriate language of a sexual nature. He was innocent (and eventually exonerated) but as he says – most people assumed 50/50. They didn’t believe all of it but thought no smoke without fire. It’s hard for humans I think not to do this. Narcs take full advantage of the inclination of most to be ‘fair’.

    • Cookie,
      They do something far worse to people in domestic violence. They sit there, with blank, dumb ass expressions on their faces and never once, tell the violent person: “YOU ARE WRONG and SCARY.”
      Then to the vicim, “RUN!!!”.
      They sip their chai latte, and make appropriate coos or nods, and say things like: “What brought on your feelings of rage?”
      “After he slammed your head on the car dashboard, how did you feel?”

      I am not shitting you. The world has become so adverse to passing a judgment on any behavior that it has reached madness. They prescribe anger management, Zoloft, certain books and deep breathing.
      Never once do they simply say: Your life is in danger. Let me help you call 911.

      They would not make any money, they live in fear in litigation and in one case, the therapist was so enamored with the violent cheater that she was practically giving him her phone number to call her for coffee. She would stroke his arm and giggle when he made a joke. You can’t make this shit up.

      1. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
      2. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

      There’s your fucking therapy.

      • Carmela, that is a bad example and probably no rarity. But when I was physically abused, my therapist told me to come at once when I would not call 911. She documented and photographed the injuries and agreed to testify. She gave me a safe place to sleep that night. Then she told me she was not competent to continue as my therapist because she was out of her depth with the situation and never expected Fucktard to be so crazy. She had known him for years. He made her doubt her abilities, and she was no lightweight. I can’t stress enough: If you are dealing with evil, you need a therapist who knows that evil exists.

        • ” I can’t stress enough: If you are dealing with evil, you need a therapist who knows that evil exists.”

          That is so well said, Survivor. It is probably not full blown malice with most of them. It might be a combination and the fact that, if you have never lived with the fear an abuser infuses into every moment, you can’t understand this is more than someone pouting or giving you the silent treatment.

          And, I have found that young female therapists can be too easily distracted or intimidated by a handsome alpha male. All that gender conditioning (which is real!). I did say to a therapist, (a different one): You do realize this is an act? When we get in the truck, he will be ranting and raving. I even told her that he slammed her, from her weight to her hair to her ideas! But he was all smiles and Mr.Rogers in the sessions. She looked like a deer in headlights. I don’t think her ego would allow her to process that she was being actively conned.

          • We had a therapist doing counselling by phone with both of us. She asked him if he had deep low self esteem, he said, ” how could I, they all want me” we were both stunned, but that’s all she needed to hear to prove what she suspected.

    • Cheater Ex and I sought counseling after DDay from a Christian counseling center specializing in sex addiction. As many of us were, I was told to make no major decisions about the marriage for a year. I appreciate that the counselors wanted to uphold their values and work to keep our marriage together, but that desire blinded them to how disordered he was. They gave me a weekly smoke off the hopium pipe by pointing out the “progress” of Cheater Ex and by telling me how this experience could make our marriage stronger. Cheater Ex learned their language, which gave him more ammunition to manipulate me with. Five years of wreckoncilation showed me there was no saving a marriage that was based on cheating, lies, gaslighting, and now manipulation through a therapist’s vocabulary! I can’t say I regret trying, because by the time I was done, I was soooooo done!

      Very few counselors get infidelity from the trauma perspective. Dr. Omar Minwalla is one of them. He doesn’t have a book, but does have some articles on his website. He and Tracy need to co-author a book!

      WTF is up with these cheaters and biking???? After I filed for divorce, he bought an expensive bike, bike rack, and some spandex!!! My chump friends’ exes did the same thing. It’s definitely part of their sick playbook.

  • The old “blow it up”/burn it down to improve it. Classic!

    My MC did wholly suck, but she never made this argument. However, my MIL did make this argument when she wrote to me after I told her daughter we were getting divorced.

    I responded that the foundation of a marriage is trust and respect. It was clear her daughter didn’t respect me, and her daughter had so totally destroyed my trust and respect for her…so there was nothing left on which to rebuild.

    “Blowing up” a marriage to save it is one of more idiotic arguments out there. In no other relationship in my life would “blowing it up” save it. With my boss; with my parents; with my siblings; with my mechanic; with my barber…the list can go on forever.

    But this is a nice salve for cheaters (and their enabling MCs) to convince themselves they were actually doing good, instead of bad.

    • My sister had a manager at work tell her he was going to “tear her down and then build her up again.” I told her to find another job immediately. That is abusive, with no sugar coating.

      • Please tell me she was not in the Marine Corps. I’ve been told that is a boot camp claim.

      • Tempest – reminds me of the people who suffocated to death in the sweat lodge in Arizona. They were sold the idea that if they got broken down enough, they’d be able to re-build themselves!

  • Wow. My ex, DoucheCanoe, must have been seeing this therapist too.

    DC started distancing himself about six months before we broke up, saying he was depressed and possibly bipolar, and that *that’s* why he’d become so distant and aloof.

    Through my own pain (not only due to his aloofness but bc I had recently lost my mother), I was sympathetic and supportive, telling him that, no matter the diagnosis, I was prepared to stick by him and help him through the diagnostic testing, the trial and error of medication, the potential sexual side effects of said meds and whatever else came our way. I was committed, all-in. I loved him. That’s what you do when you love someone, right?

    Then, when he suddenly moved out, he told me that we needed to break up so we could let all that “negative emotion” that had built up (thanks to four previous D-Days) dissipate and come back together later from a positive place (when? TBD so just hold your breath and wait, Chump), but that he was very optimistic about our chances for reconciliation because he still loved me and “knew what he was working toward.”

    Chump that I am, I accepted this explanation, desperately hoping for the best as I strapped on my pick-me dancing shoes.

    A few days before he moved out, I found out he lied about where he was moving to. He said he was getting an apartment across town but it turns out he rented a house *one block away from where we lived.*

    I didn’t let on right away that I knew he had lied so I could play detective. Sure enough, two nights into his new place, he had an overnight guest. Who was there every night (and still is).

    A little social media stalking later (DoucheCanoe and I were still “friends” at this point) and one incredible stroke of luck later, I honed in on a ho-worker he followed on Instagram from his band’s account (calling that crap a band is extremely generous on my part).

    As luck would have it, this ho-worker had posted a long while ago about how happy she was to be back in Florida and posted *a picture of her new FL license plate* (who does that?!), which just so happened to match the plate of the car that was parked outside DoucheCanoe’s house every night.

    Apparently what he was “working toward” was the arms of a loser troll ho-worker who’s 25 years older than he is. Maybe she was helping him work through his depression and negative emotions .

    When I realized what had been happening, I went NC. That was about six months ago. I still feel like I’ve been hit by a bus most days when I try to wrap my head around it.

    In one final, sick twist, I should let you know that I have the pleasure of possibly running into this troll *every day* at work because I work in the same building as her. The only thing that keeps me from strangling her is the strong belief that DoucheCanoe lied to her about me and our relationship (as I finally figured out he had done with me and his previous ex). She has no idea what he is or what’s coming. I almost feel sorry for her.

    • What a cowardly piece of shit. DC should learn that bipolar doesn’t mean wanting (and getting) two conflicting desires at once. That’s called cheating.

      It’s not a biochemical psychiatric condition.

      It’s just manipulative greed.

      • It’s worse than being a spineless turd (he is also that). I later realized that when he wanted to cheat on his former ex, he also used “depression” as an exit card for the relationship. That way, he can dump someone suddenly, take up with someone else, and not have to look like the bad guy. At least until someone puts 2 and 2 together.

        But knowing there are people out there who are really suffering from real depression and bipolar disorder and using that as a lame excuse for being a piece of shit is inexcusable and reprehensible — just like him. May he rot in hell.

    • ‘hit by a bus’…. does this feeling ever go away? a year past d day and I’m still walking around with my mouth hanging open as I discover more depths of fuckery that keep coming to light. just in time for christmas ex fucktard has phoned the mortgage company and cut his payments to the minimum and left me scrabbling to find the other half even though the house is being forced to market… – still no child support from him so I’ll just keep paying for your 3 kids in every other respect? – I suppose he needed the money to take his new girlfiend (typo deliberate) on a 3 week long haul holiday.

  • Well, the affair(s) that blew my marriage up DID improve it. The absence of lies, deceit, cruelty, emotional damage, health risks, and dysfunctional bullshit we gained through divorce and NC hugely improved the relationship.


  • Sometimes it’s hard to say what’s worse: the MC who push this crap or the chumps that buy it hook line and sinker and eventually become down right militant about it. Since CL wasn’t around when the ex got caught cheating, I found myself on a couple of different “infidelity” sites that seemed to attract a bunch of militant unicorn chasers. A great majority of these people fervently believed that their marriage was saved by their spouse’s infidelity. Many of them recommended the book: “My Husband’s Affair Became the Best Thing that Ever Happened to me!”

    Man was that book the ever popular, hopium for the masses. Very sad. Of course in the end my husband’s affair did become the best thing that happened to me because I divorced his lying, cheating ass so on that point I agree with good ole Annie!

    • cheaterssuck

      Can I ask, as you have been around this problem since before CL have you noticed any change in attitudes to Infidelity? I have been surprised myself to find out how many of the people I know have been affected by it and also how supportive people have been of my decision to leave.
      In contrast when my dad left my mom it was never spoken about really and if it was it was in term of a ‘guy’ thing and a predictable mid life crisis.

      • Everyone in my real life supported my decision to leave and honestly I think a few of them were biting their tongues super hard when I was doing the “pick me dance” during wreckconciliation for three years. I think they wanted to support me in whatever my decision was but ultimately were relieved when I decided to get a divorce.

        As far as cyber space is concerned, I don’t really know. Once I found chump lady, I pretty much ditched the other infidelity sites. I would occasionally go back and put a link to a great article from chump lady but I didn’t hang around the sites to find out if more people were leaving their spouses.

        That’s an interesting question Capricorn but I don’t really have much empirical evidence one way or another to get a handle on the pulse of how people feel these days. I hope people are getting a clue. I am not quiet about how I feel about the subject anymore so who knows, maybe we are affecting change in our own way.

  • I hate the fact that the word “addiction” is thrown around so carelessly nowadays. A lack of self-control does not equate an addiction. Making it sound all scientific not only keeps you on meds or therapy, it’s also a way to negate responsibility. And guess who gets paid from it? It’s unconscionable. If you’ve ever watched someone detox from alcohol or withdraw from an oxy you very quickly realize what real addiction is. It can kill you or at the very least make you very sick. Some people just have some bad habits. It’s not a medical condition.

    • You just reminded me of a weird coincidence. When I lived in Tucson, my doctor was a “pioneer in defining and treating sex addiction.” There was a pamphlet about it in her office. Guess how she stumbled upon the field?? Yup – her husband was a cheater.
      At the time, I had never heard of sex addiction (this was mid 90s), and I had no idea that I had just married a serial adulterer.

  • During our first attempted wreckconciliation, mine loved to look at me earnestly and say “I should thank OW because it has made US so much stronger”. Like we were eating bran muffins, and while they didn’t taste good, they were SO good for us so it was a win. Asswipe. Little did I know he never ended it with OW when he was trying to sell this garbage. He thought it was such a clever way to turn his evil deeds into something I should be thankful for. Blech.

    • No, but seriously. If OW wasn’t such a home-wrecking twat who who fucked up my family, I WOULD thank her for removing The Coward from my life. I wouldn’t want her to see how awesome life is without him, or anything. I’m just glad he has something that keeps him from seeming more pathetic. I don’t want anyone to look at me as if I need to help him with anything. That’s all on her now, yay!

  • Mine did thank the OW when he “broke up with her.” He thanked her for saving our marriage. Isn’t that sweet?

    • What a dipshit. You do wonder if, once we are not there to keep them grounded, these cheaters need surgery to remove their heads from their intestines.

  • I had an urge to take a baseball bat to Fucktard’s $60,000.00 truck but refrained from doing so. So unfair I want dopomine too – no fair that Fucktard got all the addictive excitement!!! (LMAO). Dumb subconscious anyways – mine freaks out and says you probably shouldn’t do that and then I don’t. Having a subconscious is a bitch, subconsciously speaking of course.

      • My subconscious wants to see the whore drop dead in the shower tray she turned into a cats toilet, lay there undiscovered for a week with her face eaten by the cats. For an extra helping of dopamine I’d help this unfortunate accident along. Damn subconscious… Just dreaming, she’s not worth going to jail for!

  • I admit that I am fascinated by brain chemistry. I have been treated for depression for decades so I have always read about it.
    After DDay 1, I found a lot about the neurochemistry of affairs. I absolutely believe in the dopamine high as a physiological occurrence. But as an excuse for cheating and lying? Nope. The payoff isn’t THAT good or THAT long lasting.
    After DDay 2, I read the (surprisingly small amount of) literature I could find on the neurochemistry of heartbreak. Depression and grief are well recognized and researched, but the brain and body’s response to betrayal and heartbreak aren’t? Who the fuck is finding the research?

  • Going out on a limb…..

    You know what? Maybe it was subconscious.

    I myself react poorly in certain situations, due to my upbringing, strong sense of responsibility, raised by a narc, am an extension of others. Trained to put my needs last, have no voice, etc. so yes at times I lose it. I get why. Work in progress. Some of it is subconscious as I need to retrain those parts injured by FOO.

    As for this shmuck cheater, he was raised to be entitled, he was number one, meet his needs at the costs of others, disregard rules and mores, lie and cheat to get ahead.

    Even if it’s subconscious (BS IMO) it comes from a source of SHIT CHARACTER.

    • Well, I do believe they automatically put their selfish and shallow desires first for sure. They don’t consider how their actions hurt others. Ever. They suck.

      • Also, they lack impulse control. X made very few carefully thought out decisions.

        • Though they do seem quite deliberate and planned in their ability to cover up the affairs.

  • Every time we went to a new MC I hoped and prayed that *this* would be the one to get through to ex. I had at least two tell me privately, “We both know he’s a narcissist but if I hit him with too much truth he’ll never come back and we won’t have accomplished anything.”

    Ummm…. isn’t the POINT of counseling to discover some new truth?!

    The MC’s were worried about hitting the WRONG PERSON with the truth. The Cheater wasn’t EVER going to see the truth; *I* was the one who needed to hear the truth: Your husband has NPD. It’s highly unlikely that he will ever change. What are your standards and how much more of your life are you willing to sacrifice for a relationship of this caliber?”

    CL and CN helped me find those truths and come to the right conclusions.


    • Amen. I have heard of a few MCs who told people “your partner is a narcissist. There is no fixing it. Get out.”
      And in your experience they told you he was a narcissist but really gave you no validation of the shit situation you were in.
      Mine didn’t tell me. Even during a solo session after DDay 2 when I told her I was done and why.
      She just said “I am sorry that things have worked out this way.”

    • Yes, Meh, exactly! Once I got the NPD + highly unlikely to change piece I was able to start marching. Until then, I couldn’t put the hopium pipe down! It would seem to me that anytime a serial cheater presents at a MC office the spouse should be informed of NPD. (Of course, I had heard of NPD but I just thought it was a person that was self-centered and such. I didn’t know that *lying* was huge part of the pathology.). And who the fuck cares if the couple never comes back as a result of the MC supplying that bit of knowledge. The betrayed spouse very well might come back for assistance and support in getting out!

      • Yes, Nikki Lynn. I would have continued counseling, brought my kids in for counseling, and referred a whole bunch of people their way if they had been up front with me from the beginning.

        And I DO think that a lot of these MCs are sincere about wanting to help people, they just aren’t informed about NPD.

        It’s absolutely possible to be sincere and be sincerely WRONG.

        My own final, major conclusions have been this:

        1) Is there genuine, long-term repentance and remorse? (CL has spelled this out in her book way better than I ever could!)

        2) Change what you can. (Generally, only yourself.)
        Accept what you can’t change.
        Remove yourself from the unacceptable.

    • Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed learning more about how dopamine works and agree that people are most certainly in control of the choices they make.

  • Finding a good therapist for your kids has to be really hard too. How is it even possible to find someone trustworthy to sit alone in a room with your child and influence their thinking? Scary thought, especially when you just want to get your kids some help….

  • Cheater apologist therapists are the equivalent to Froot Loops Cereal. It’s Froot for cheaters, here’s a piece of Froot, yum….tastes better than ordinary fruit. Ordinary fruit needs to be washed, peeled and sliced, but Froot Loops comes in a convenient box and has a 200 year shelf life without altering the rainbow colored Froot.

    So yeah…..some therapists get paid to serve Froot L
    oops to their cheater clients, it’s a win win and Froot Loop Festival.

  • I’ve heard the dopamine rush one gets from jumping off a cliff is AMAZING!! Maybe Deaun should try that next. (never mind the abrupt comeuppance at the bottom)

    • Mandie101 above talks about her cheater wanting to do a “hard reset”.
      This would be the ultimate dopamine rush with a hard reset chaser!
      I love it NWB!

  • The nonsense that can come out of mouths of therapists can be just awful. A lousy therapist can cause all kinds of damage. A good therapist will tell you that a cheater needs to own their choices, period. A good therapist will be supportive to you and ensure that you are protected from further harm. A good therapist will repeat to you over and over again that you did not make your cheater cheat on you – you do not have that superpower. A good therapist will call out your cheater’s excuses over and over again so that you don’t have to. A good therapist will likely be fired by a cheater because the cheater won’t be able to handle their questions and insistence that they address their toxic behaviour.

    I get sick and tired of psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers who have zero skills dealing with infidelity spouting all kinds of harmful rhetoric. Cheaters 100% know what they do and they do it anyway – there’s no other excuse. It’s deliberate, it’s planned & they are wide awake when they do it. If anything needs blowing up it’s the myth that cheaters do anything without deliberate intent to harm.

    • Yes, cheating is a choice requiring frequent lying, carefully-crafted deception, and deliberate trickery.

  • I think this has to be one of the craziest pieces of bs out of a cheater! Tops everything I’ve heard.

    I did have a marriage therapist (we went to a few sessions together) ask if I thought my cheater–whose affair was with a woman he had threesomes with–was just simply wanting attention from me as a spouse. I just looked at her and thought WTF? My cheater sat there and just smirked and made some wise ass comment about having a working mom as a wife. Yeah that definitely got my attention cause it’s the worst sleaziest thing a spouse could do. If he needed to say he was unhappy he just needed to be honest and say so. It was at that point I ditched the marriage therapist and got myself a decent personal therapist and got out of that stupid marraige repair crap. Like I am going to apologize for bearing his children and earning half our income? Like a grown man could not adult? Ughghgh.

    • Not only can they not adult, they have such dissain for us because we can! Immature and self-centered users look down on the adult spouse. You seem so boring to them, raising the kids and making sure the house is paid for. I feel like I learned this lesson thoroughly in my own life, and since from listening to friends who are having problems. The Narc will chase the craziest, nastiest AP, while they have a really outstanding partner crying at home! This is the crux of why I gave up on my marriage. He didn’t want me because I was being an adult. What he wanted was a partner in escapism. Silly me -I actually like the world I live in, and even like working hard to accomplish my goals. All he liked was running from anything real.

      • This post spoke to me! So much! I copied it into my Chumplady wisdom not on my phone. A week before d-day, my ex took me to Paris for our 10th anniversary (all the while conducting an affair with his 20 something ho-worker… met her parents, talked about a house a kids, etc…). So we’re sitting in a bar at 3 am and he is wasted (as usual). I am sober (as usual). All of a sudden he goes off on this drunken tirade about “society” and “the man” and “responsibilities.” “What will it matter when I die if I had car insurance? Why are some schools better than others? Why should we have to care about living in a good neighborhood so our daughter can go to a good school? Why do I have to go to the dentist? Who cares if we have a 401k–all we need is love.” I was disgusted and dumbfounded by his idiocy. He’s still a 37 year old teenager.. he always made me feel like shit for being responsible i.e. wanting plan things (anything, everything), not staying out all night like him, being “no fun.” All the while I hold 3 degrees (he has none), run our household, work full time and raise our child as a single parent. I did literally ALL of the adulting in our 10 year marriage. Having him out of my hair has been so liberating. I’m free to adult without feeling lame or being criticized… and may I say I do a fucking good job! Financial house is in order, great job I love and my daughter is thriving. Good riddance to bad rubbish!!! Being single for the rest of eternity would be preferable to having to deal with his whiny irresponsible ass.

        • Soltera, mine would engage into these global economy/politics/life wisdom conversations all the time. I thought he was sooooo smart. Eloquent, yes. Most narcs are, that’s how they attract us. So just 5 min ago he got me hooked again into the conversation although I manage to be in a yes-no mode with him after we agreed on a divorce. While I am in CL most of the morning and he is supposedly taking care of our 9 yr old son while we are over at his place for 3 weeks christmas vacation (long distance marriage for the last 6 years so we see each other twice a year) he is trying to keep it light and humorous. Just told me he was thinking of signing up into acting as he always wanted to do that. I replied that I hear about a new hobby every year- a narc feature- like new age spirituality, astrology, yoga, meditation, body building, learning mandarine, now acting…none of those have been developed into a real hobby but served his plans when he needed to lure in a new AP interested in any of the above. Before DDay I thought I was dealing with a super smart intellectual open minded personality. Anyway, he then said that acting will give him a possibility to kiss another woman, have sex on the screen in the presence of many (huge turn on), and all will be legitimate and he’ll even be paid for it. And then he won’t have the need to cheat because it will all be there for him. I agreed. Then he expressed regret that I decided to divorce because he really sees an opportunity to save the marriage once he starts acting. I told him, “Hey, I finally agreed to it. You wanted a divorce 3 years and 8 years into our marriage because there was no chemistry according to you. I did not agree to that because I had plenty of chemistry and love and thought we could overcome it. You never admitted any infidelities but were pushing me to initiate a divorce so you would then blame me in front of others that I never loved you. So now 12 yrs later I have finally agreed to it. Why are you complaining?” He said with this deep sadness “You never understood me then and you don’t now.” I said, “I DO. YOU WANT CAKE!” He said, yes I want cake and I also want you to enjoy it!

          He has always maintained I was an undiscovered masochist and that I deep down enjoyed his affairs. He wants to prolong that enjoyment for me.

          It’s funny I don’t get triggered anymore. Mightiness, anyone? I only want to go through this divorce as smoothly as possible although you never know with a narc and I have seen his vicious side many times. I told him I will be friends with him (no real intention but I have an international custody issue which can become quite risky so I have to maintain a civilised relationship), will continue visiting him in his country with our son, will let him stay with us when he visits, etc. He is draining me and I hope I will find a better way out of this. For now threading carefully, as I am on his territory for another 15 “christmas-joy-filled” days.

    • When I worked part time (up to 40 hours plus long commute) on top of parenting 3 kids and running the home (all inside AND outside chores, all kid and school duties, because he worked full time with no commute) with no financial support from him (he paid mortgage and insurance, I paid for evvvverything else) he complained that he couldn’t help with any costs because “you only work part time–that’s YOUR problem.” Then when I went full time to pay for college for our kids, he ditched us for a jobless alcoholic. No job, no kids, no savings, no excuses, no class, no morals. He complained that “You’re always at work!” And, “You don’t NEED me!” And, “I’m just a PAYcheck to you!” (That last one–that’s my favorite, the stingy-assed mofo. I worked my ASS off for our family. ) I mean, you can’t win with these losers.
      Now I don’t do anything for him, and I get just as much financial support from him which is none. Life is good.

      • It’s true, life is good! Yep,gain a life! At the end of the marriage I was thinking of him as ‘the anchor’, or picturing him as a millstone hung around my neck.
        The whole thing just makes you shake your head.
        I love having peace!!!
        Happy Peaceful Holidays, all you chumps!

      • I’m a roommate with a paycheck. That PISSED ME OFF! I’m sorry. That’s why I told you I loved you every day and did everything to show you I cared. Because I thought of you as a roommate with a paycheck. What a load of BULLSHIT! It’s all about belittling you so they can feel like it was okay to do. “I didn’t picture you as a human being with feelings so this was all a-ok for me to do. I needed happiness! Don’t you want me to be happy?” NO! I want you to die in s house fire you piece of shit!

      • Mine also said things like he was just a paycheck (i worked) and a sperm donor (because he never wanted kids) and that I never loved him. After the birth of our son he then arranged to live in another city where he got a job and we met on weekends only for 3 years and then across the ocean for another 6 years meeting twice a year for short vacations. All the while I was pushing for reuniting and he would come up with ridiculous excuses to not to.

  • My STBX twisted all sorts of things that the MC said. Even if I reminded him that I was right there on the couch next to him.
    He also went to individual counseling. He would repeat things that his therapist supposedly said when it was to his advantage. An example: all 3 of my kids are on the autism spectrum. STBX claims that his “problems with emptathy” are because he also has autism. (Note: I am not saying that there aren’t undiagnosed adults with autism. I am also not saying that there are not people with autism who have some difficulty with empathy.) No, his “problems with empathy” are because he is a narcissist. He has no problem pretending to have empathy when it gets him what he wants – attention and affection. He also has no problem using the empathy of other people to get what he wants.
    My smallest kid (with autism) has more empathy in his little toe than STBX has had his entire existence.
    (STBX’s lawyer began our mediation session with “this might be hard for my client because of his his autism.” My response “oh, have your received a diagnosis? Can we (my lawyer and I) have a copy of that evaluation?”)

    • That’s BS. I think that SOME adults with autism can end up being somewhat narcissistic as a coping mechanism, but I don’t think that individuals with autism are necessarily low empathy. My six year old daughter has mild to moderate autism, and she has a huge amount of empathy. Her only issue is that she doesn’t always understand another person’s perspective (theory of mind). Once she gets it, though, she’s far more compassionate than some neurotypicals I know (including me and my neurotypical younger daughter).

      He’s just using the spectrum as an excuse.

      • My kids all have huge amounts of empathy.
        He is using it as an excuse.
        He also uses it to get sympathy and attention. Not that he has participated in therapies, assessments, IEPs, or just day to day parenting… But I am sure he talks a good game. He also tried to use it as an excuse to continue visiting the kids at my house rather than setting up his own household and doing all the work there. He thinks the kids don’t want to visit him elsewhere because of “autism.” He takes no responsibility for not having solid relationships with them, them having no faith that he will care for them, not working with their therapists to ease transitions, etc., etc.

        • I used to work with disabled kids and I agree with you, most of the autistic kids I met have empathy but difficulties with understanding, expression and communication through language. Empathy is not the issue with them. It’s a major deficiency in the cluster B disordered.

  • Please, we have to educate MCs.

    After the first Dday, my STBX and I immediately went to a MC who was highly recommended to me by my individual therapist. The MC was a really nice, smart, experienced counselor who listened very patiently and empathically while I expressed my pain, anger, and confusion at being betrayed. Problem was, she was equally patient while the STBX spewed out insane excuses for his four-month affair:

    STBX: You “never” want to have sex with me. What did you expect to happen? I thought you didn’t love me and didn’t care about me. I told you once that I wanted to have more sex. I have never been sexually satisfied in our 7 years of marriage. What does it matter if one tiny piece of my penis touches one tiny piece of her vagina? It’s too bad you are not more like me, I don’t feel jealousy. I must be polyamorous. Do you really expect me to be your everything? That is just not realistic. Why should it matter if I continue the affair? It didn’t affect you when you didn’t know about it. You didn’t even know I was having an affair until you heard that message on my phone. Why do you feel so threatened? You are my “primary” partner. Yes, I didn’t tell you the truth, but I was partially honest. I suppose you are going to want me to kick her to the curb? You can’t imagine how hard this is for me. She is a lawyer like me and she listens to my work stories and she understands me. You “never” want to hear my work stories. No, we did not talk on the phone very much, mostly texting. Yes, I am in love with her and I am afraid if you and I don’t work out in 6 months, she will have moved on by then. No, we did not use protection. If you knew her like I did you would know she is not that kind of person (the kind with STDs). No we didn’t discuss it, but I know she was using birth control. I’m not sure what kind, it’s the one you put in before you have sex. You are making such a big deal out of this. I can’t take all your aggression. No I won’t tell her I will not have contact with her, she is an amazing person, and I will not hurt her that way. At first it was just sex and then she had a cancer scare and I took her to the doctor. You have no right to punish me…

    Cost to hear this crap:
    $160 (out of network referral) * 24 visits = $3,840
    $500 in babysitting costs while we attended these sessions
    Supposed value of keeping my family intact: Priceless

    When I met with my individual counselor at the time, I told her that MC felt like chemotherapy. Each session involved me having to accept the poisonous, illogical things the cheater would say to me, and integrate them somehow into my being, with the hope it would save our marriage. Toward the end, I told my IC that MC felt more like a bizarre negotiation process where the couple argues back and forth until they can come up with a narrative they can both live with that explains what happened, and still move forward together.

    With the MC’s professional help, he stopped seeing schmoopie and we reconciled slowly, living together, over a period of 6 shitty months. After a year I believed our marriage was better/stronger as a result of the work we had done. After 2 years, I no longer checked up on him or feared infidelity. After three years, he regularly expressed gratitude that I had stuck things out with him. I was surprised at my own ability to completely forgive him.

    Unfortunately, I was wrong, the MC was wrong, my IC was wrong. We all believed my STBX had simply made a mistake “the first time,” and learned something from it. Turns out DDay1 wasn’t the first time or the last time he cheated, and we had all been duped. My excuse: 2 kids, hopium, and ignorance.

    I asked my IC why she and the MC let this happen to me. This was their one job, for one hour a week, and they failed. Aren’t they the experts in relationships? Haven’t they seen hundreds of disordered personalities, chumps, and stories of infidelity and reconciliation play out like this before? I am outraged today that the MC never once pulled me aside after one of our chemo sessions to whisper in my ear: “run, honey, run.”

    Luckily, my lawyer was no chump. When I first spoke with him after DDay 1, he looked me in the eye and said “what are you going to do when it happens again?” Just like that. Boom. Best question ever.

    Cost to protect myself legally and financially three years ago:
    $1,200 for consultation and a post nuptial agreement negotiated as a condition for reconciliation

    So this time, when the cheater in him re-emerged, I didn’t have to wonder, what am I going to do to fix this? I didn’t have to move out of the house or convince him to do so, make my children change schools, prove infidelity in court, pay thousands in lawyers fees to fight for a reasonable settlement and custody arrangement, lose half my 401k to him, or pay his under-earning ass spousal support or child support.

    This time I can focus entirely on me and the kids. Yes I am feeling sad, angry, confused, and hurt, but with NC, that is already starting to pass much more quickly than last time. I know now, based on experience, that dancing is strictly for chumps. Thanks to f CL and CN, I have been in recovery and cheater-free for 3+ months. Where is my 90-day chip?

    • Gorilla Poop

      It’s a thing isn’t it when you feel like you need counselling to recover from the counselling you have had.
      I admire this post so much. You very clearly state what is so badly wrong in therapy rooms. I think it is more helpful to seek out a domestic abuse specialist but who does that in the first throes of shock from ddays.
      I’m copying this into my ‘what the fuck to do about all the crappy infidelity therapy and therapist’ file.
      I’m a therapist as I posted earlier and it took me ages to find a good one. I had a psychopath for a mother and a narc father.
      One therapist just refused point blank to accept that my mother didn’t love me ‘on some level’ and my anger was the problem.
      A second broke down during my therapy session and he started to ask my advice about his mother as he realised that his mother had been abusive and he wanted help.
      A third just had nothing. Out of her depth.
      It was a depressing time.

    • Gawd I want to throttle him! He sounds like a whiny self absorbed prick. Not one mention of your feelings. Just reading his brat manifesto irritated me. An a-class punk. I know you still wish he weren’t an idiot…. but clearly he is. He is an idiot. I suppose he think you must be one too but sadly for him you are not. Roast his ass in court! Fight fight fight!

    • Gorilla, your post should have its special tab on this site as a road map for anyone who wants to try reconciliation. You rock!

    • Gorilla Poop, we did not go to MC but I heard ALL of this from my cheater. Aren’t they just exactly the same? Mine told me that thanks to his ability to compartmentalise he does not mix affairs with family (although he was clearly planning to discard me and our son as soon as he secured a committment from his career driven narc AP). He said what I did not know did not hurt me so he made sure that I would not know. Which was easy given our mostly long distance marriage. He said I should be more open in terms of sex and if I had accepted threesomes or him having sex with some other woman in my presence, then it would have greatly improved our own sex life and encourage spiritual openness. He told me he thought he loved his AP and he confessed love to her because he felt complete with her in every sense of the world. He told me he never wanted to divorce me (a lie, as he was meticulously planning his exit and suggested divorce twice in 12 years on the basis of no chemistry but never admitted infidelity) because I am a perfect wife and he would never want to hurt me. He told me I was always insecure and jelous for no reason and I should see a doctor and fix my own mental issues. He told me maybe we should explore a sadomasochistic relationship because he clearly is a dominant and I am a submissive and he is confident that I secretly enjoy his infidelities because they cause me pain (my dopamine I guess!) And I just must be open with this and elevate my life onto a new and higher spiritual level. Maybe I am meant to have orgazms while watching my husband making love with his whores….I can’t believe I actually engaged into long and soul-depleting conversations with him trying to appeal to his higher senses and emotions. Now I speak with him as they advise for speaking with teenagers: ah! Oh! Cool! Yep! No! That’s fine. A-huh.

      I hope this kind of talk will get me through divorce and the 9 more years of coparenting. Will be seeing a lawyer in January .

    • “MC felt more like a bizarre negotiation process where the couple argues back and forth until they can come up with a narrative they can both live with that explains what happened, and still move forward together.”

      This line. My God. Just this.

      I think you may actually have discovered what they are /actually/ training marriage counselors to do.

      A friend of mine is blind, and has extensive negative experience with counselors with zero psychology training, or apparent training of any kind. He has a blog that is nothing but rants about how useless counselors are.

      And this is such a /perfect/ take on precisely what it is these useless human beings are trained to do.

      Anyone even considering marriage counselling, under any circumstances, should be made to write this out a hundred times. It should be legally required to post this prominently on a sign outside of every marriage counsellor’s office.


  • If a need for dopamine caused affairs, then cocaine, which has a higher dopamine hit than sex, should be a cure and a deterrent.

    I’m half-joking, but I doubt a therapist would excuse cocaine use, by saying the WS wasn’t getting what they needed from their marriage, “My therapist said if our marriage had more cocaine in it, I wouldn’t need to look elsewhere for it.” There are some crappy therapists out there, but not that crappy (I hope)!

    Marriages don’t provide the rush of cocaine, and they don’t provide the rush from cheating. The fact that WS would blame a stable, loving home for not getting them high, is crazy.

  • I can see an earlier version of myself buying into this BS.

    I can see why someone might want to believe this because when you’re chumped, you’re grasping at straws. My ex retconned a marital crisis to cover her affair, so before I even learned she had cheated, I was in desperate marriage saving mode already after being blindsided by the idea that apparently I was awful and she had been unhappy for a long time. She just… you know… somehow neglected to ever mention that in all of our years of marriage.

    But I bought it. After all, if you look at yourself critically enough, you’ll find plenty of flaws as a spouse. I was devastated at the idea that I had somehow put my marriage in jeopardy and as much as I longed for things to return to normal, I thought that perhaps it was good that we were in crisis because maybe I wouldn’t have ever addressed the problems in our marriage otherwise.

    After I discovered her affair, I persisted in this thinking. While I knew it was horrible and unconscionable, I continued to rationalize that maybe, just maybe, this could lead to a positive outcome, that all of the terrible things were happening were necessary to break us out of our complacency and force us to confront our problems if we were to survive.

    I think that’s what people have in mind when they talk about blowing up the marriage to save it. They suggest that the cheater somehow had it in mind to induce a crisis in order to force them both to confront the flaws in their union.

    This is, of course, in hindsight, utterly asinine. You want to address the problems in your marriage? How about talking about it? My ex didn’t want to confront the problems in our marriage. She wanted to avoid them. That’s why she had the affair in the first place. It’s insulting to suggest that such an act of supreme selfishness was supposed to somehow be for the “good of the union.” The idea that cheaters are thinking of anyone but themselves when they cheat is laughable.

    Even among those who reconcile, I can’t bring myself to believe that anyone builds up a stronger union from the ashes of an affair. At best you live the rest of your life with the emotional scars and struggle with trust for the rest of your days together. And I can’t honestly believe that anyone who cheats really believes otherwise, subconsciously or otherwise. Such rationalizations are entirely post hoc.

    • After d-day I went into a frenzy of untangling the skein (I’m still in untangle mode right now. Of course I know better about many things pick me, the skein, NC but it’s still early days and I just can’t stop myself yet. I’m getting there ever so slowly!). While untangling the skein and looking at every bit of the marriage my digging pulled out, “You didn’t initiate enough sex/intimacy and that meant you didn’t love me.” Apparently this was the problem all along and what DROVE him into the whoremat’s arms. (BULLSHIT but “his truth”) After digging up this little nugget of goodness I have basically been freaking out non-stop about how I ruined our marriage and broke my STBX. He felt rejected and thought I didn’t love him and now he’s sad and damaged from rejection and it’s all my fault. Of course I couldn’t initiate more because he wasn’t connecting with me emotionally and O had a hard time wanting him when he wasn’t emotionally there for me. It was a vicious cycle. I THOUGHT this all came out so we could fix our problems but it was apparently too late and even though I felt it was recoverable he “fell in love” with the whoremat and has moved on to be with her. Devastating to feel like the marriage failure was all your fault and then the cheating on top of it too. The worst part was he could have SAID “when you don’t initiate intimacy it means you don’t love me” and I would have changed my outlook but he said “I want more sex” I TRIED every time he said it! More sex better sex. More of the things he liked, but I got burned out without reciprocation and I’d burn out after a few months. Too bad he couldn’t ACTUALLY SAY what he felt or wanted. Now I just have to try to get through the trauma of the betrayal and try not to blame myself for the situation to begin with. I KNOW it wasn’t my fault logically but it’s so hard to quiet the chump voice that whispers, ” but it actually WAS all your fault!” I feel like such a failure.

      • Shelby, that’s just bullshit, the traitor did the same to me. Don’t believe a word of it, it’s just victim blaming.

      • Shelby, my husband mentally checked out of our marriage after the 1st year after his first affair. For the next 12 years I was blamed for being sexless, not feminine, rigid, compared to a soviet comrade soldier women, boring, black and white, becoming less career competitive, fat, insecure, jelous, controlling, manipulative, you name it. I took it all upon me and tried to fix. Excercised (I was never overweight), got employed in his country where I had to learn another language (always had great jobs in all 4 countries I lived), cooked healthy delicious meals, educated myself on stuff that the cheater was interested in (a new subject every year which is a narc tendency and as I later discovered his new interests were triggered by new APs) , made friends with his friends, hosted many dinners, etc. But their void is bottomless so no matter what you do they always find fault. And his every critique stuck to me permanently and I desperately tried to save our marriage while I felt his distancing more accutely. He also is a smart narc..they all are…so in all those lunches, dinners, old and new friends and family .he appeared very warm and sensual with me in front of others. The guests leave, his cold and dead face and attitude are back. So whenever I complained to some friends or family they dismissed it saying that he really loves me and I should stop worrying over nothing. So I naturally thought it WAS my mind, my insecurities and my jelousy. So he WAS right and I should have addressed my problems within.

        We are fixers. It’s an obssessive trait by the way..we try to be in control so we think if we fix this or that in ourselves, as our narcs suggest, then all will be fine.

        I understand you are still untangling. You may even go the wreckonciliation route. That’s fine. The fruit has to ripen and it takes different amount of time with different chumps. All of us coming to the site have a secret desire that after our untangling we’ll have an insight into how to fix our special relationship. We don’t want to be here but then we realize this is the safest place to be as long as we need to recover. I wish you find your mightiness. I am trying to uncover mine.

    • Even among those who reconcile, I can’t bring myself to believe that anyone builds up a stronger union from the ashes of an affair. At best you live the rest of your life with the emotional scars and struggle with trust for the rest of your days together. And I can’t honestly believe that anyone who cheats really believes otherwise, subconsciously or otherwise. Such rationalizations are entirely post hoc.

      Truth. The only trust I have with my cheater-wife is perverted; I just assume she is a lying cheating narcissist. It was hard, but I finally stopped projecting my values onto her whenever she says anything. Now I monitor her actions instead. Any mutual agreements between us are either written-down or I look her in the eye and ask her to repeat back to me what she just heard, what she will specifically do, and when she will do it.

      Every single damn day I think of her 800+ dick & pussy pics and all the jr. high school schmoope-pie sexts between her and her fakebook BDSM fuckbuddies. Whenever she gets pissy with me over trivial crap (devaluing) I always remind her how wonderful her cheating piece-of-shit boyfriend was simply for “being there” for her (as I was at work).

      I have my exit strategy planned for when the last child is out of the house (I can’t afford two households and two sets of tuition). In the meantime, she abides by my terms and conditions for remaining married to me. The only thing stronger about our union is my hardened backbone.

  • We went to marriage counselling after Dday 1 broke- she was an older woman, and obviously determined to be neutral- but even then he didn’t like the moderate amount of criticism he received, and he wouldn’t go back. The next one was a Sensitive New Age guy who had crystals hanging everywhere, and was really into books like The Hero with a Thousand Faces. he and my ex had a lovely time discussing how he needed to embrace his inner journey, or some such shit, and then he eventually remembered to ask me what I hoped to achieve in counselling. “I’d like a husband that doesn’t fuck other people.” I replied. There was silence. Shortly after that i found out about OW 2, and stopped the pointless waste of time, but ex kept seeing him for quite a long time. he eventually stopped only because the counsellor kept pointing out how toxic his simultaneous relationships with OW 2 and 3 were . Ex said ” There’s really no point in paying him when I’m not following his advice”.

  • He came around last night for a talk which decended rapidly into frustration and was good in a way because it made me see that if he came back it would be same shit different day.
    ‘How many millions of people have affairs and are stronger for it’
    ‘One day you will realise why I went there’
    Why ae you so angry, when are you going to get over the past’
    Its been five weeks, he hates that im angry. What am I supposed to be all cool with it. According to him im always angry, yeah cause you an a hole who checked out of our family 8 months ago.
    When asked going forward how would I trust him, he looked blank snd shrugged, seriously these people could not play chess as they have no idea about consequences or future strategies.
    He was upset that school mums would see him differently because I had ‘ bad mouthed him’ yeah that what happens when you do shitty things to the people you love.

  • I am so glad you used that comment. Deaun is me the chump! that was an actual text my cheating husband sent me. Along with the explanation that it was a “chemical imbalance that suppressed my ability to judge”
    But now apparently the chemicals have magically been balanced because if the fear of losing his marriage.

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