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Dear Chump Lady, He’s in the closet. How do I tell his wife?

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Dear Chump Lady,

A few months ago, I met a guy at a bar. We hit it off, and I invited him back to my place. I asked him if he was single; he said he was. He also said he was closeted. We started hooking up regularly.

Then, a week ago, I happened to see him downtown with a woman and two kids. Surprised, I looked him up on Facebook, and found out that he has a wife and three daughters.

I wasn’t okay with that. I never agreed to be an affair partner. When I confronted him about it, he told me that he was scared of how people would react if they knew he was gay. Which is pathetic, because he’s a grown-ass 31-year-old adult! In Coastal California! He also said that coming out would be “too difficult”, because his family is homophobic.

Yes. He had the nerve to complain about the difficulties of coming out, to me, knowing full well that I was kicked out of my home at age 16 because my parents found out I was gay.

I’m starting to wonder if he’s actually bisexual, and I’m just a typical “other woman”.

Right now, I feel disgusted with myself. I know that’s irrational, but I can’t help it.

I have no interest in ever seeing this guy’s face (let alone his dick) again. But how should I go about telling the wife?

And more importantly, what the fuck is his problem? There are lots of guys who sleep around with married men; why couldn’t he have fucked around with one of them, instead of lying to me about his marital status? If he is actually gay, why did he feel like it was okay for him to marry a woman under false pretenses? And why isn’t he being open with his wife? It’s not like he’s facing the threat of homelessness!

Also, how do I stop giving a shit?

Sincerely

Promiscuous with Principles

Dear PWP,

Yes, tell the wife. If you read here much, I nearly always say tell, tell, TELL. Shout it from a mountain-top, send it in a Facebook message, deliver it registered mail. Sign your name. Give details. Don’t do it half-assed and anonymous. Let her ask you questions. Rock her world — it is a KINDNESS. One that every. single. chump. here wishes someone gave them, and saved them years of their life, money, and STDs.

My exhortations on telling are everywhere on this blog. I’m more interested in your other questions.

Also, how do I stop giving a shit?

You shouldn’t stop giving a shit. You’re a principled, moral person who cares. Don’t turn that off. You hate lies and injustice. You hate being chumped by this creep, and you hate that he’s chumping someone else. Do the right thing and tell. Let this woman have the dignity of truth. (And maybe send her over to the Straight Spouse Network to chat with people similarly hoodwinked.)

And more importantly, what the fuck is his problem?

He’s a Cluster B nut cluster. He likes deceit. That’s his real high, not promiscuity — it’s duping. He likes the power of getting over on people and using them. You were of use. She’s of use. The sad sausage act of “it’s so hard to come out of the closet” — is bullshit. Is coming out harder than living a double life and risking your wife’s health and welfare? No, hooking up with a guy he meets at a bar (I’m sure you’re not his first) doesn’t seem to pain him in the least. The closet is the perfect operating base for cake. (Having his affairs and his marriage.)

I pity his wife. When she finds her anger and grief at being duped, he’ll probably call her homophobic. The problem is really Her Lack of Acceptance of the Real Him. (Apparently he had that problem as well.) He’ll mindfuck her with the old It’s Not What I Did, It’s Your Reaction to It. Does she hates gays? No, she probably hates being lied to and having her health risked. Send her here. I’ll help her with the distinction.

Any who, I’m not minimizing the pain and the bravery it must take to come out of the closet — as you yourself know — and all the risks therein. But this guy doesn’t live in 1963 — he lives in 2017. Gay marriage is legal (and it better fucking stay that way or I’ll have to keep marching and yelling at things every weekend.)

One lesson you might want to take away from this clusterfuck is don’t date closeted men. You don’t share the same values. You’re brave and self accepting. They’re in hiding.

There are lots of guys who sleep around with married men; why couldn’t he have fucked around with one of them, instead of lying to me about his marital status?

Because he PREFERS the lie. See duping above. It’s the power imbalance that he’s after. He knows something you (and his wife) don’t know.

Also you’re all interchangeable. Kibbles are kibbles are kibbles. “One of them,” one of you. It’s all the same. Whatever. Suck his dick.

If he is actually gay, why did he feel like it was okay for him to marry a woman under false pretenses?

Entitlement. Same reason straight men marry women under false pretenses. Gay men can be assholes too. Cheaters want the un-level playing field. They want someone to invest in them wholly, and they don’t wish to return the favor, but will lie to extract all the perks and privileges of “commitment.” In your case, the creep finds value in having a beard and projecting straight “normalcy.” No wonder you feel disgusted.

And why isn’t he being open with his wife? It’s not like he’s facing the threat of homelessness!

That would end the power trip. It would be the death of cake.

That’s why I encourage you to tell her.

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Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Tell her.

    Everything Chump Lady says here is the unvarnished truth. The guy is on a power trip.

    Yes, it will be hard to tell her, and yes, he will deny it all, but you owe it to yourself.

    • PWP, kudos to you for asking the question HOW should I tell her not just should I tell her. You already know you need to reveal this to his wife. You will find the right way to do this openly and with dignity – the way you do everything, even really difficult things.

      You should never be someone’s dirty little secret. You deserve better. I was shocked to learn that many AP’s know full well the person is married and accept that on some level. You have principles because you do not.

      He deceived you telling you he was single and gay. He is obviously not who he said he was. At all. Most likely, he told you many other lies as well. Sustaining a double life requires many lies to many people. You may not even be his only AP. Such an intimate betrayal is devastating.

      • I would assume that the majority of AP know the other person is married. The whoremat in my situation was all about “let’s talk about our shitty spouses and since I’m your ‘friend’ I’ll ‘help you repair your marriage’ by ‘accidentally’ falling ‘in love’ with you”. Theirs was The Love Too Great To Be Overcome. ??? The world is so full of GARBAGE I really fear for everything.

          • There’s married whores out in the word that are not satisfied with their own H. They want everyone else’s H and can talk enough sex and text nude pictures, with a lot of help with the H, that they finally hook up. I told H he needs to ask sweetie how many marriages she has helped break up.

        • This is exactly what the X did, Apparently I was a Shitty spouse (news to me) so they spent hours at work talking about how bad the spouses were and then of course fell madly in love and blew up two 27 year marriages and are now living happily ever after!

          Garbage both of them!

  • Spot on C/L. As a Beard married for 36 dedicated years, it seems the best closeted gays are able to lead the most double of lives. From – Brokeback Mountain –

    Ennis Del Mar: This is a one-shot thing we got goin’ on here.
    Jack Twist: It’s nobody’s business but ours.
    Ennis Del Mar: You know I ain’t queer.
    Jack Twist: Me neither.

  • “I’m starting to wonder if he’s actually bisexual, and I’m just a typical “other woman”.”

    Yes, I’d say so. Unless he held his breath and thought of England when he conceived those kids.

    You might find that his wife is shocked – and disbelieving of you – because they actually enjoy a vigorous sex life.

    It’s not uncommon.

    • As the ex wife of a closeted man and a veteran of the Straight Spouse forums, I can tell you that just because he had sex with his wife does not mean he’s bi. Without going too TMI, these men find all kinds of ways of managing it, either via a hidden gay porn habit, preferences for certain . . . ahem . . . positions and practices, and simply zoning out and thinking of England.

      I will say, too, that one of the most hurtful comments we straight spouses often get are about how our ex’s couldn’t possibly be gay because they conceived children with us or how they couldn’t possibly be gay because surely we would have known–how could we not have known? (I know you’re not saying either of these things, Lola, I just wanted to share a bit more about some of the variations on the chump experience for those of us whose cheater is gay).

      I have no doubt that this man’s poor wife has known on an intuitive level for years that her husband is not attracted to her and has been blaming herself, as so many of us chumps do regardless of whether our disordered spouses are straight or gay. But there’s a special kind of hell reserved for chumps whose spouses never were attracted to them to begin–thank you to PWP for caring enough to do the right thing and tell this man’s wife.

  • So much this! My Dad is gay. Or bisexual. He’s 74 and just changed his own labelling from gay to bi recently to me. It’seems his prerogative. But the shit part was my Mum loved him. For the almost 19 years she was married to him. He was exceptionally sheltered and claims he didn’t know why he felt ‘different’ until he’d been married 15 years. With four kids. Then he fucked random men when away from home on farming conferences. It was the 80s. Then AIDS hit. He was outted by a blackmailing guy. They stayed together for another year. I think Mum was lining up ducks and getting her head around who the hell she’d had this lovely life with. Her story ended well. It was hard. But she built a great new life and found love again. Dad? Not so much. I haven’t the room to tell that story! When he told me a few months ago that he identifies as gay, I was a bit taken aback and asked, “oh, so there’s been women since Mum?” I only knew his male partners. “Oh no. She was the love of my life.” Oh. Kay.

    The reason I mentioned the STI was the fact that at just turned 17, and off to uni, my Mum kicked my Dad out and they told us together what had happened (to our lovely family.) I said to Mum a few days later, “you did always use condoms when you found out, right?” (He was vasectomised.) And for the next two years as I took phone calls from my mother at the other end of the country, I was always terrified she was calling to say her latest HIV test was positive. And I grew up NEVER having casual sex. I met my ex and he learned my story and my fears about unknowingly contracting an STI from a trusted partner. And things went swimmingly well for 25 years. So in love. Then his ex-AP told me of their affair. It wasn’t until a week or two later I asked him if he used protection. Every time. Not once. Not once in 15 months did he roll a bit of latex on. I got tested. Silent tears rolling down my cheeks. Mid 40s. Mother of 3 teens and young adults I had pushed the safe sex messages onto.

    And I had chlamydia and HPV. For the last four years I have been receiving treatment for cervical changes including 3 invasive procedures that triggered rape memories from my university days. All caused by the HPV his ‘clean’ AP gave me.

    Tell her. Tell her now. And keep being you. Keep having fun. But do it with your values intact, PWP. It helps protect the innocent, as well as your own self worth.

    And as a chump, one of the most disempowering things the man/woman you totally adored fucking your ‘friend’ does to you is humiliation. To think that someone knew the real version of your life, when you were living some fucked up lie. Letting her know stops that now. I have 18 months of my life that aren’t even real. Loved him to distraction while they both played me for the ultimate fool.

    • Sheesh! Phone screen. Identifies as *bi. No longer as gay. Hopefully you can see past the rest of the typos!

        • We all have our stories, and I think that mine is just a variation on the theme, CR. I have lots to be thankful for in this life. Hope you are well.

          • horsesrcumin, your story is so moving. It’s is absolutely mind boggling that you told your husband what happened when you were a teen, how it affected you, how important trust is for you, and that it didn’t make one jot of difference. He betrayed you anyway and so did your “friend”. I’ve experience a similar thing, my trusted partner, who knew my childhood history as the illegitimate child of adultery, with no father or paternal family, questioned me, grilled me about fidelity and swore he had always been faithful and always would when we started dating, but did exactly the opposite. No matter how apparently good they have been for a few years, the trap was set a long time ago, they were just waiting to spring it.

      • Cheers, Lola. I feel the same about every chump who ever lived through this hell. I sure as shit thought my Mum was freakishly strong – and I saw some of the shittiness, some of the brokenness that occurs. But not often. She fronted up pretty strong – far more so than I ever was able to in the aftermath of my life imploding (two suicide attempts in the first 18 months, ugh.) Maybe because I was away a lot of that first year that she later told me she couldn’t really remember. Selling our beautiful farm he worked so hard to make so productive, with a keen eye on environmental issues (wetlands, native plantations, etc) and sustainability, he just walked away from it all, and us (he was the farmer, she was not – but she did it, selling a pedigree herd, plant and equipment, etc.) Buying her first home on her own, getting the first paying job she’d had in nearly 20 years, with little education. Hell, she didn’t know how to balance her own chequebook. He’d handled all the finances, she had been a fairly sheltered, quite beloved and taken care of wife in many ways. But she got some good advice, lawyered up, financial advisor, etc. She just ploughed through what she had to to get to meh. She still had kids at home to hold herself up for. With humour, dignity and a ton of grace. And she was waaay tougher than I ever gave her credit for. Resilience was her middle name! I always thought if my petite, ‘spoiled’ mother could survive, that of course I would, as I was a heck of a lot tougher than her. Piece of cake. (Well, you know …) But this has been the fight of my life. So much harder, so much more painful – agonising – for so much longer than I anticipated.

        But yeah, I am strong. Always knew that. But I also know that I loved extremely deeply, and never will again.That nearly did me in. I miss it, I miss that feeling of deep contentment, of true bliss, the electric passion, of knowing that I had the best guy who had my back. He fucked that all up during the mother of all breakdowns, and no amount of his deep remorse, or bending over backwards to try to make it better and show me how terribly sorry is his ever fixes what he chose for a while, no matter how sick he was at the time. He knows it, and we both live it.

        • Horsesrcumin, you are more powerful than you know. Nobody knows how they’ll react until an event happens to tham. I’m sorry for your hurt, and very glad you are still here. You are a gift to this community, don’t ever forget it.

        • horsesrcumin
          Was not going to post today but your story is so powerful. I think more than anything else I have read recently your post shows the devastation that cheating and deception can cause to so many people over such a long time. To hear of your survival through this is humbling. Hugs.

          • Horsesrcumin, Although my first experience after the death of my husband has been with a Narc SOB cheater (three years) who is also a chancer and still coming for half of my everything… I hang onto the fact that I did, could and will love again…. even if it was a shit.

            Please don’t let your cheater take that away.

            • Hi Morse. I don’t see it as something he has taken away, more as something I am keeping for myself. Self love. And there are many ways of being loving, they don’t all have to include intimacy with a significant other. I love my kids, and the couple of people I have met through this experience who have shown me support and love. I will never say never, but I have zero desire to do this again, and that is a choice I make – maybe just for now. I don’t think it makes me less, or that I have given any power to the two people who were the participants in this. I loved, and I loved well. I know it is not a popular stance on this forum, but my ex and I also have love – respect and shared memories of a good ‘partial’ life together. Yes, we live separate lives now, and limit contact (which is never a problem when we do have contact, we do get on really well.) That helps me, I know it was real, and that although there were 18 months of lies, that for the rest of the nearly 30 years, we were really fucking good, we loved, we were respectful, fun, loving and caring. Sometimes it does seem easier to hate him. I hate what he did. Loathe it! But I don’t hate him. I feel sorry for him, because this is what HE chose when he was sad and unwell, instead of trusting me and coming to me. That is his FOO shit, not anything I own. And he lives with that every day. As do I.

              • I’m curious – did you have that loving, almost forgiving attitude right from the beginning, or did it take a while? I’m still at the I-want-to-rip-her-lungs-out stage.

              • oaktree, I swing – not quite as wildly as in the beginning. But I was TOTALLY shocked at how … understanding I was of his position. Lying was my bottom line. I had communicated that from the start. I was mad as hell at him for being a fucktard and putting my health at risk, for fucking up our kids’ lives, especially for not considering the consequences. Well, he did, but he was sick and his own fucked up narrative at the time was that if I found out I would be pleased and leave his cheating arse! He can’t believe he thought that then, and is equally as appalled as I am. Hell, I ran him down with a quadbike one day. Yup, I really did. That was after ripping a great deal of the back of his head off with my nails. I sound nuts, I know, but that was tempered with a lot of sobbing in the foetal position. The swings of anger and utter fury at his dismissing my feelings was at times out of control.

                I think the anger is necessary. USE IT! It will propel you to get the life you deserve.

          • Hi Cap! Lol. I saw very little of my life story as terribly inspiring, or that I am any more of less than anyone else who faces the things that life chucks at us. I have a pretty good life, white privilege, ‘enough’ economic prosperity, etc. Healthy, thinking and loving kids. All those things.

            I wasn’t devastated by my parents’ divorce. I was sad, mostly for Mum, and for losing my ‘home’ – I loved that farm and dreamt of buying it back until very recently. I think I saw it as a period of growth. For us all. Not something to be survived. I even saw the violent rape at university by a person I knew as an opportunity for growth. I never felt sad for myself, or that I had done anything wrong. I guess I was able to almost distance myself from it, a little? I felt it was a messed up guy making shitty choices that affected other people, and that I was merely the ragdoll in the moment. (Hey, I knew I was affected, but didn’t – I don’t know – take it personally???) Sounds weird. It has been in the wake of my partner’s affair that the rape has come back to mean something different, and I see that as the reason for the continued nightmares about rape, violence and betrayal now. My skein has now become very tangled! I never doubted him. And I wonder why? I am a naturally somewhat suspicious and slightly wry and cynical person by nature. I wouldn’t say it was overt, or obvious. But I knew that life events had jaded me somewhat, that life wasn’t all rainbows and lollipops! (Mum was a more optimistic person than I ever was.) I saw that as a bit facile, as a young person. But I now think it was her coping mechanism, and admire positivity as a tool to contentment more than ever. But hey, thanks for the props! I think everyone here is finding their own ‘thing’ – their own power.

          • Hi Cap. I just read further down the thread, and it appears you met some tension here yesterday. I am sorry. I haven’t read it, but know this. You can’t please all of the people all of the time. Hell, some days it is hard to please even one – yourself! This space is mostly supportive and uplifting, but there are always differences of opinion, and those who are clumsy with the way they state those differences. Don’t let it deter you. Keep fighting your fight, and stay in this space. Even if you need a breather now and then, this is one of the best supports anywhere for the chumped. Sending love x.

        • Horsesrcumin – I admire your mom’s resilience in the face of her adversity. I wonder at times where people like her, and others on this site, find/found it. I’m glad you’re here relating the story of your mom’s courage, and yours. You help others by doing that. Its meaningful.

          Its clear you’ve lived many dark days you didn’t deserve, and I’m sorry. So many on this site have suffered so terribly that it’s hard to read sometimes but, time after time, you see that they’ve picked themselves up and learned to walk and eventually run again. They found resilience they didn’t think was in them, and I know you can too. You had a good model.

          • Some of us are truly lucky with the parents we get, some not so much, kiwi – I got a dose of each! 😉

            • Strangely horses, I think I did too. My mum was the OW, AP, and a chump who believed the unhappy marriage, stuck story. This was in the 60s, could only have a fault divorce through adultery, his wife didn’t want to divorce, and he wasn’t going to accuse her to get a divorce since she was faithful. She was a great mum, never messed around with anyone else. Absolutely a mamma bear to me.

      • WOW, thats a very powerful story horsesrcumin, full respect to you for going through all that and coming out the other side. I will never get the chance to tell the the wife of the man who was my ex’s AP…she killed herself, whether that was as a result of her husband having an affair with my ex-wife I’ll never know. These cheaters leave quite a trail of destruction behind them don’t they?

        • Oh mickey, that is devastating. I would wager there is a link, for sure. I had no idea that my love was doing what he was. Despite the two of them around me all the time, at my homes, and texting around me (and WITH me, the deception was so perfect.) But with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, there were clues, I did know something was off. Going to relationship counselling on your own, because you feel it, and he holds me tightly and says everything is fine, “I love you so much, we don’t need counselling darling, you’re just working too hard,” was a pretty huge, bright red, flappy flag, right?

    • horsesrcumin, what a powerful story. Both you and your mom are mighty. I hope I can be as good a role model to my kids. Cheers!

      • Don’t be sorry, Martha. My story is not unique. And it made me who I am today. I am not sorry for very much of it. I am heartbroken about the last part, we really did love each other very, very deeply. And that is heart wrenching, we couldn’t find a way to weave it into the story with the rest of the less-than-perfect threads. We tried, he tried, so damn hard!

    • horsecumin, it is so good to see you post again. I admire you so much. I hope you are doing well. Do update us.

      • Thankso for the love, team CN. I read regularly and am much funnier and ‘coping’ in real life than my comments today portray!

        My Mum died suddenly at just 55. Almost 17 years ago now. How I wish I had her around through this shit. Despite her loving my ex, a whole lot (he really was a lovely, lovely man until he wasn’t – not a covert narc at all – I’ve dug and dug. It was a breakdown and he is embarrassed and nearly as devastated as I am.) Mum would have been amazing. Instead I have gone this somewhat alone. No sisters and my brothers are not the type. The closest to me once asked if he could hit him! But I already did that ?. Just the interwebs and a couple of lovely people I have met online. Meeting one at the end of the month – she’s flying halfway ’round the world to meet up! Pretty cool.

        I don’t comment here much. Mostly read. I am in the last few months of my Masters degree in Geography and stress is a factor. I recognise the buttons it pushes, let alone the topic I chose, which can be a little triggering despite mine and my supervisors’ care to keep me safe while I wrestle with this thesis. I originally argued to do it on basically spaces of home for straight partners of those of (later discovered) fluid sexualities. But my topic is related. Just less focused on sexuality. You might see me comment more as the submission date draws near ??!

    • PWP please please please tell the wife EVERYTHING and give her every last detail. She will scream and rage and feel like dying from the shock but you will be the kindest most humane just person she may have in her life.

      For those interested in FOO issues –I don’t exactly know why I was a magnet to two Cluster B narcissistic cheater alcoholic husbands (married 30 years between the two and I’m only 49) here might be a reason: beloved dad liked to fuck young boys — he moved us to SE Asia to have better access to them, he died of alcoholism at 40. Beauty queen alkie mom revenge fucked every smooth talking man who crossed her path. They had 6 kids to keep up the sham. Both were horribly physically and mentally abusuve and neglectful — total narcissists. Mom booted me out in streets when I was 16 because new step daddy was getting a little too friendly with me (just normal kindness to grieving kid- nothing creepy). I lived from one perilous place to another until wasbamx #1 got me pregnant (said he’d use a condom them refuses) at 19.

      Despite all this I made it into Al-Anon at 17 then got sober at 21 — been active in AA and Al-Anon ever since. Got my BA and JD. Married STBX in grad school. 3 more kids. Blindsided 2 years ago with proof of 20 years of cheating. Mask off– he flipped channels to rage/self-pity, told kids he hates them, always hated being a dad. Abandoned. Divorce will be final in a few weeks.

      Tell tell tell tell…. be kind and courageous! You may save those daughters my fate!

  • Please tell her right away. If you have any proof other than your word please share it with her as well. Be gentle but spare no details. Thank you for being your wonderful self and giving a damn.

  • Your sexual identification, preferences, and proclivities do not entitle you to deceit. Being into centaur porn that you worry others will judge you for does not give you the right to gaslight your spouse. Whether you enjoy sex with men, women, or cartoon cardboard cutouts of Colonel Sanders, NONE OF THAT GRANTS YOU THE RIGHT TO BETRAY PEOPLE YOU PLEDGED TO LOVE AND PROTECT UNTIL DEATH. Everything involving your genitals is ancillary because before ANY and ALL of that, you are supposed to first act like a decent fucking human being.

  • Thanks for having integrity, honesty and courage. You rock.

    I just need you to know that I lived a horrible time when I knew ‘something was off’, which turned into a nightmare when I confronted him and was told all the ways I was a terrible wife which was why he wasn’t in love with me any more.

    I CANNOT tell you what a humiliating damaging soul destroying two years that was when I tried to improve my human faults in the face of deep discard (staring into the distance after asking me why didn’t I just get up as I lay in the snow with a suspected broken neck is one that comes to mind. I wasn’t even worth bending down for) and monumental self pity (don’t you understand how much he was SUFFERING in his crisis of not knowing what he wanted).

    My deep gut knew what I could not believe of my ‘soul mate’. I used to long for that contact, that anonymous telephone call that would give a light out of the rabbit hole of lies and misdirect.

    When (thank you Chump Lady) I finally got tired of the emotional mistreatment and bust him, I was GIDDY WITH RELIEF. Because it all made sense now and I wasn’t crazy.

    Please tell her. I bet you anything she already knows something is off. Give her the ‘this way up’ sign she needs to make sense of her life.

    • There is nothing so soul destroying as sensing that something is off in one’s relationship, but being repeatedly “reassured” that you are are a suspicious lunatic. I also remember all the times I was devalued; I would literally beg X to tell me what was going on. Of course, he never did and I had to learn of his betrayal in a very public and humiliating way. I am convinced that the deception is part of the high. It gives them sense of power and control. That is why it is so important to tell the truth. There is a human being on the receiving end of this asshole’s betrayal. She deserves to know. Even though the letter writer is in no way responsible for what the cheater did, as a fellow member of the human race, telling cheater’s wife is the right thing to do. Her physical and mental well-being could very well depend on it, especially since her husband is engaging in random hook-ups.

      • Violet, I agree 100%. Something was “off” with my husband after the first year!

        Part of me will always suspect that X remains a closeted gay man. He loved going to Provincetown’s gay bars, with me – and now his bimbo – as his beard. His “lovemaking” became perfunctory and cold as ice just a few months in to our marriage. He loved going to Hedonism alone.

        His Catholic upbringing prohibits homosexuality. But it also supposedly prohibits adultery, and that didn’t stop him from one definite and I suspect another affair years before.

        Mostly, he treated me like I didn’t matter. He moved out of our bedroom when I was eight months pregnant with our first child because he thought I “was going to blow.” Then sex became something dirty and cheap. When I objected to “doing it” on the unmade, old mattress in the basement where he slept, he dismissed me as being “frigid.” I was never frigid; I just wanted an intimate embrace every now and then. Lying to others about my commitment to him during our marriage. Making fun of me in front of people and then getting pissed when I was hurt. He devalued me every chance he could. E.T.C…

        Underscoring all of his shortcomings continues to be his love and need for “secrets.” Whether giving a half-assed excuse or description to anyone, he craves control of information. He got off on sneaking around with his bimbo at work, getting an HIV test after a Hedonism trip because, “Some skank bit my tongue.” [He never could explain why his tongue and her tongue were in the same place]. He stole A LOT of money over the years from me and the kids and lied that he “invested it.”

        I agree that cheating is misunderstood by people who think it’s all about sex. The lies and effort it takes to cheat on an unsuspecting spouse/partner has to be the ultimate high for the cheater. Control is paramount.

        When you think something is “off,” it is.

  • PWP, I am sorry you have been lied to and hurt. You have great moral principles to know in your heart you have to tell his wife.

    Telling her is the right thing to do, what she chooses to do with the information is up to her.

    Good luck and best wishes for your future.

  • First, this guy is an absolute jerk. He put you in a terrible position and it is a totally unfair position to be in. When you tell his wife, it is going to rock her world. She may respond with anger, just know that is an initial response to betrayal. It isn’t you, it is her jerk of a husband.

    I can only imagine what being an accidental affair partner must be like, you asked up front and you were lied to, that really sucks. Telling his wife does a couple of things for you – it lets you know that your own moral compass is alive and well; even when it is tough, you will do the right thing. The other thing is that is provides you a bit of protection from future closeted vultures – when you ask a potential partner if they are married you can look them in the eye and say, “Just so you know, if you are lying and a find out you have a husband/wife I will absolutely tell them. I have done it before and I will do it again. I am too amazing to be a side piece – so just know, I am not the one.” That will give you some jerk wad protection, because they will know you are not one that will be gaslighted into living in or participating in a lie. Cheaters hate people with a moral compass, you will be creating your own forcefield.

    Tell her, be mighty!

  • If he is actually gay, why did he feel like it was okay for him to marry a woman under false pretenses?

    This is the million dollar question and Entitlement pretty much sums it up. They are entitled to their picket fence and their 1.2 children, he believed he was entitled to church, public standing and all that went with it. When I refused to remain his beard he just groomed a new one with the aid of the church. He lied for 8 years that he acknowledged, I suspect it was much longer. He lied to me, our family and our church community, and I suspect his affair partners also. His only concern then and now is him. I know the new wife will face the same hell I did because he has spent years perfecting his lies and deceit. I suspected but was gaslighted to within an inch of my sanity, while those on our community thought he was amazing and having to deal with the highly strung wife almost gave him sainthood status. When I walked following d’day he totally played the victim, all my fault our marriage was over, he refused to own his sexuality. Justified his cheating with 20 partners over 8 years on being possessed and moved on after he realised belittling me and blaming me for the angst in our marriage was not going to get me back.
    Entitlement, Entitlements, Entitled, Dick!

  • When proof of my suspicion came from the mouth of my then 14yr old son. I never needed him to prove what he knew, it was enough to act on my suspicion and confront cheater. It was the way he dealt with the truth and the days that followed that cemented my decision to end my marriage. Like a truly closeted man he hid from the truth.

  • I just wanted to add to my reply — I do have sympathy for men of another generation who had to live closeted lives. And we aren’t fully there with LGBT rights, of course. But on coastal California at 31 years old, you aren’t a 60 year old man in rural Arkansas. Being out — even in one generation — is not the risk it once was.

    I don’t want to lose sight of what a terrible risk it once was. But IMO, that “risk” and the sympathy people have for homophobic discrimination — is being used to mindfuck PWP with (and the chump wife when she discovers, I bet.)

    There was a time when the whole world was closeted. I grew up in the Midwest in the 70s and 80s and being gay wasn’t even SPOKEN of. AIDs changed that and activism changed that — I have sympathy for men who led closeted lives. I don’t think they’re all Cluster B nut clusters. But I also have deep sympathy for the women caught up in those lies who were chumped.

    • I have friends who married and then it dawned on them that their marriage was an act, so did the right thing ended the marriage and got on with an authentic life. But spouses who cheat with their own gender and think that it’s acceptable are just mean. Sadly had cheater had an affair with another woman I would have pick me danced my heart out to prove I was worthy. But my competition were other men and I didn’t even know the game was on let alone know the rules. I think back and I can see tell tale signs of his gay lifestyle but I couldn’t tell you what I had or hadn’t done to trigger his behaviour. Because it had nothing to do with me. He had set his mind to a particular path for his life and he has no intentions of straying from it. He needs a wife so he can gaslight anyone who may be suspicious of his character. (Like those he oversteps the flirt line with) If I had a dollar for every time I have heard, “when I first met £%¥# I thought he was gay but then I met you and thought, he can’t be gay he has a wife and kids”
      Cheater can’t be gay and keep his desired life style, he married another woman for two reasons to keep the lifestyle he had carved out for himself (loving Christian family man and the backbone of church worship on a Sunday morning, all while getting a bit on the side when ever the mood suits him.) and secondly to play down my telling the truth. All you need to provide most Christians is a mustard seed of doubt and they will quickly forget the reality of the past for some communal hopium.

      • I’m 4 days behind and just saw this thread. You told my life story when you told yours…except I accepted “The men” stupidly, but refused to have sex with him. He NEVER initiated hetero sex, so that wasn’t difficult. But finding his sparkly new beard, who was supportive of his sexuality was my last straw. ..even though it took me 5 years to file. Guess what, that beard doesn’t want him, either, anymore.

        • AIFD – ‘Guess what, that beard doesn’t want him, either, anymore.’

          Raising hand, being in the same Beard Boat and knowing his next *fake* squeeze will figure out soon enough that she’s been used for a beard. He does it well, and I didn’t find out until over 3 decades…but limp coward Jackles never change their teeth patterns…or something like that.

    • CL, as usual you’ve hit the key issue. I also think it’s possible that young gay or lesbian people might start life in denial about their sexual orientation or feel pressured to live a heterosexual life. Pressure from parents and homophobic organizations contribute to unsustainable choices. In most cases, I suspect it isn’t any harder to sort out whether a gay person is a cake-eating Cluster B type than it is to sort out the disordered heterosexuals. Lack of remorse, lying, blameshifting, expecting the partner to tolerate abuse, lack of empathy, the constant snuffling around for new kibbles–that’s what we need to recognize because those people don’t change. That’s worlds away from those who struggles to self-understanding and acceptant and then take responsibility for telling the truth about who they are and how they want to live.

      • And the bottom line is that, whatever his sexual orientation, Married-Gay-Guy LIED. Repeatedly. Made multiple decisions to deceive two key people–his wife and PWP, plus betray his own children. No excuses.

        • There’s a chump in my meetup that this happened to — she found evidence her husband had been frequenting a local gay club and having hookups there. — It took her a long while to come around to the realization that the primary issue is the lying. No matter who else he’s fucking, he’s lied to her about it.

          • I’m glad she had you, NWB, to help her both cognitively and emotionally. Trying to think straight after such a shock is like trying to stay upright in a hurricane.

          • Mum was all about this. That the lying was the deal breaker. As a family, we all had deep empathy for my until then closeted Dad. It was a different time. 70s and 80s rural New Zealand wasn’t a kind space for anyone on the sexuality and/or gender spectrum. Dad grew up with much older (40 and 50 when he was born) conservative parents. The first son after three much older sisters. There were gendered expectations and parental dreams. He was never exposed to anything about ‘Other’ sexualties/orientations. He met a beautiful girl and he proposed 6 weeks later! Mum and Dad remained extremely civil. I wouldn’t have a relationship today with Dad if Mum hadn’t been inclusive, tolerant and understanding of his fear. He appreciated that immensely and did come out to our community. The gossip mongers had already decided it must be my really beautiful and bubbly mother that had cheated on my much quieter, reserved Dad. He defended her in public.

            Even in a much kinder environment, a couple of my kids’ friends (a couple of young people struggling with sexual identity) would rather they were straight. The life course looks more obvious. And kinder. One guy (friend of my youngest daughter, hilarious and just adorable 6’4″ of him) is still denying. And you couldn’t get a more glamorous queen than him. He admits he questions, but that his dad doesn’t understand him. His mum adores him, and I am sure is fully accepting of his lusciousness. So he isn’t out yet. But everyone who knows him knows. And the vast majority love him. It still isn’t easy. My eldest daughter’s flatmate – a dear friend she went to high school with as well – they are both 24 – has only last month come out to his mother. Who was really surprised, but loving. I have known for 6 years. He was living in our capital and it has taken him this long to build up the courage to come out to his family. Until you live a marginalised life, it is pretty difficult to understand the fear some have. I think being chumped is one of those marginalised subjectiviries. You think you’ll be okay and kick arse, until it’seems your heart lying bleeding and bashed in the dirt, with everyone running for the hills in terror.

            • All that said, lying to a person who totally loves you, and endangering their mental and sexual health is a total mindfuck! Not excusing this cake eater’s fucking guys like PWP for shits and giggles hurts everyone and I have deposit empathy for ANY AP who was fed the “oh yeah, I’m single, the BEST single, we have the greatest singledom” line. Everyone hates being played! Much love PWP xxx.

          • NWBiblio, exactly! It’s the lying and the double life and lack of reciprocity. It’s being willing to take 100% effort from your spouse and give 12.3% back. Or maybe -92.7%, given the pain of finding out about the infidelity.

    • From the many stories I’ve read on the Straight Spouse forum, it seems that closeted men and women who marry straight people fall into two basic types: decent, well-meaning folks who were trying to conform to social and religious norms, and disordered Cluster Bs who feel entitled to all of the privileges that go with being straight.

      The stories you read or hear about brave spouses eventually coming out and leading authentic lives–which includes acknowledging the ways in which they hurt their spouse–are almost always the first type. The stories you read on the Straight Spouse forums almost all involve the second type, men and women who will never, ever leave the closet, will deny being gay even if you catch them in the act (“He was questioning his sexuality so I thought I would help him figure things out”), and who will gaslight and blameshift (“If you were having sex with me I wouldn’t have had to try to spice things up with gay porn”) until you spackle enough to believe them or they discard you and move on to the next beard.

      While all Cluster Bs are confounding to deal with, the insidious thing about closeted cheaters is that usually the last thing we chumps expect to find is that they’re gay. And worse, they can often get away with cheating for much longer because it’s easy to dismiss “hunting trips with the guys”–in my case, when X’s cheating kicked into high gear and I enlisted in the marriage police force, I joked to my friends that if he was cheating, he must be gay because all of these numbers, texts, and videos are to men. Ha ha. There went another year of believing his lies.

      I think, too, that many of us do have our suspicions early on, but they’re so easy to dismiss–it was one of the very first questions I asked my X after meeting his mom, who greeted me with, “Nice to meet you–we always thought X was gay!” And of course when he denied it and proceeded with the love bombing, I didn’t give it a second thought, even though the red flags were there from the beginning–because why would someone pursue you if they weren’t straight?

      • OtherKat, looking back, you had it figured out. He must have been gay! But it’s like those optical illusions where if you look at it the right way, you can see a whole different picture. Something in our minds has to shift for us to see someone we’ve known for use in a whole new way.

  • Gonna chime in and say this man lied to you about being married for the same reason he lied to his wife about being straight: lying gives him more power, respectability and benefits. If he was honest about his orientation he wouldn’t have his perfect respectable wife and family. If he was honest about being married he wouldn’t be able to play the “good guy” in your relationship and his options are limited to the sort of people who don’t give a shit about aiding adultery (which tend to be shittier people).

    By lying about his marriage and orientation, he gets to take advantage of kind, honest people (you, his wife) who wouldn’t associate with him if they knew who he really was and he gets to present a false front of respectability to others.

  • Dear PWP–

    I really was the wife in a situation like the one you describe. TELL HER!
    I only wish someone like you had come forward to tell me the truth earlier on. Instead I wondered for nearly 30 years what was wrong with ME. I eventually discovered what was going on through other means (internet history) but I literally wasted decades on a liar who deceived me and put my health at risk.

    Please, please, please tell this poor woman. You’d be doing her a kindness as Chump Lady says. Don’t spend a minute feeling guilty about it, either. It would be a very brave thing for you to do.

    Also, please include “Chumplady.com” in whatever note you send her, so she can come here for strength. She’s going to need it. It was my life preserver in a sea of bullshit.

    • PWP, I have UnknownComic’s exact experience and echo both her and Chump Lady’s advice. First, you can’t blame yourself — this guy is a master at deception, and he tells people what they want to hear. Mine told men who were into sleeping with married guys about me (in detail) to up the interest, and he told others who weren’t that he was single. That has nothing to do with orientation and everything to do with his character. You did the right thing by a) not wanting to be an affair partner or contribute to his lies and b) getting out when you found out.

      But please do tell the wife. She deserves to know and while it can be no fun to be the guy who does the right thing (again), telling her is the right thing. Even after I found out bits about my husband’s activities during our 2 decades of marriage, he never told me the whole truth including how much he was risking my health and our children’s safety. I am incredibly lucky I am perfectly fine, but this woman may not be as fortunate and she deserves the right to information that can limit those risks.

      I suspect that just by the very fact you had the courage to write in here, you are already leaning in this direction and have the courage to do this. You are a good guy in a bad situation.

  • “Cheaters want the un-level playing field. They want someone to invest in them wholly, and they don’t wish to return the favor, but will lie to extract all the perks and privileges of ‘commitment.'”

    This statement should be daily reading for anyone still struggling with “why?” or “will he or she be different with the AP?”

    • LAJ, so true. I recently found out that the ex’s OWife is publicly posting corny love letters to the ex on FB. I can see the exact same pattern happening all over again. Ex is avoidant and Owife sounds like her attachment style is anxious, like I used to be. Funny how people (and patterns) never really change until people do the work, I mean really do the work. Ex is Owife’s third husband.

  • You are fucking a man regularly that you met in a bar and had sex with the first night.

    Yet, you only look him up on Facebook after you *accidentally* run into him downtown with his wife and children? Bullshit.
    No questions about, Hey, can I come over to your house next time? Or, Hey, why don’t you call me at night? Or Hey, why aren’t you available much on the weekend? And, hey, I want to friend you on Facebook or see your Instagram considering we are fucking and all.

    You are an OW, just an OM. You were clever enough to frame this as a “closeting” issue so everyone would hear the PC dog whistle and treat you kindly.

    If we had changed your sex to a woman in the post, this crowd would have torn you to bits.

    I have two brothers who are gay- so gay, we need a new word for gay. One lives in Santa Barbara. These are the most dialed in, connected, Social media junkies on the planet. Are you living in a Luddite community on Coastal California?

    You would have looked this guy up the nano second he left your place the after the first fucking session. You would have called everyone you knew and asked about him. I know your community inside and out.

    And, no one in the gay community…no one….who has been there a hot minute views men who are married who hook up with other men as some shocking aberration. You are shocked! You are outraged!

    You are the Emily Post of random one nights and have never heard of a man trolling gay bars to have sex who are…..MARRIED? I need my smelling salts! Who knew this happened?
    Give me a break.

    You are pissed because you got involved with a married man who will not leave his wife. Or give you the time and attention you think you deserve. You are jealous. And now you are going to blow up his wife’s world because you got your feeling’s hurt. I’d bet my house on it.

    • I have to say when I first read his story,I thought something was off too.I think the writer is motivated by jealousy and anger rather than some altruistic desire to enlighten the wife.And it’s true that if the writer was a woman there might have been a very different response.

      • Clara: I think you’re bang on. Married men trolling gay bars is nothing new in the gay scene. I have a gay male friend who regularly hooked up with married men 30 years ago. He doesn’t apologize for it – it was and continues to be a very much accepted part of gay culture. I dare say that Mr. PWP is either terribly naive, or has poor internet skills or his feelings are hurt. Maybe all three. The bottom line – PWP is going to come across a lot of married men in his travels. Is he going to feel compelled to tell all wives of men who have gay hook ups with him that their husbands are cheaters? Seems like a monumental task.

    • I think PWP is upset because Cheater lied to him. Cheater told him he was single but he was actually married. I agree he should tell Cheaters wife before she wastes more years of her life being a beard. He may be saving her health or even her life!

        • Of course jealousy is normal but a young gay guy who doesn’t check out Facebook profile of someone he’s having sex with until after he sees him with wife and kids.Hmmmmm….

      • I’m in agreement with you as well. I think the guy is pissed and wants revenge. It’s ok to help cheat on another guy, but a woman? How dare he! It’s all about the drama, drama, drama! If this guy was a woman I’d call her a ho. He is a ho who takes strangers back to his place and sleeps with them. Slutty and dangerous!
        He doesn’t get a pass because he is gay. He likes the drama. This isn’t someone who was passing through town, but someone who apparently lives in the same area. The cheater admitted he was in the closet. guess what, that means he sleeps with women. DUH. He’s just pissed and wants to crap on the wife. Drama! I hope his wife puts her foot up both their ass!

        • Being in the closet doesn’t mean that someone is sleeping with straight people. There’s a long history of “lifelong bachelors” and “spinsters” who never married and whatever sex they were having was on the down-low with other closeted folks. There have always been plenty of closeted people who don’t go to the extra lengths of dragging an unsuspecting straight person into it with them.

          • If PYP were a woman, she would be ripped to shreds. I passed this letter on to my gender fluid, gay lesbian associates of this age group. The concensous is he is lying.

            • Okay first of all, being in the closet just means you haven’t professed your sexuality to anyone (originating with one’s parents). It does not mean that you’re having sex with the opposite sex. You are confusing terminology because that would be what one describes as “a beard.”

              Second of all, we get that you think PWP is a liar. Not everyone agrees with you and saying it 100 times in a hundred different ways isn’t going to change anyone’s mind.

              Third of all I do think that we’re being chumped here today but I don’t think it’s by PWP. Everything and everyone is not what they seem.

              Okay enough said, I’ll buzz away now.

              • PYP’s affair partner obviously peruses the bars for random sex with whom we really don’t know. After all the only thing we have to go on is a cheater who lied about his marrital status, his sexual preference etc. So much so, PYP questions whether or not cheater is bi. So yes not really beyond a proven liar to lie about being in the closet or sexing other men and women. After he is a liar, closeted, beared, whatever

    • Clara, why so mean to someone who is trying to do the right thing? I’ve had random one-night sex, and on-going FWB relationships, and it doesn’t mean I don’t care whether the person is married or not. The internet makes it easier to find out about people now, but some people keep a very low profile (you won’t find anything about me on line except professional info). And some of that random sex? I didn’t even remember later what the person’s whole name was ….

      As with much that revolves around infidelity, the problem here is the lying! And the letter-writer is rightfully PISSED about that, and trying to do the right thing.

      • PWP was duped by a man who lied about being single. Why is that so difficult to believe?

        A young single gay man would be shocked in this day and age to find out the man he was involved with lied about having a wife and children.

        PEP, tell his wife. She has a right to know her husband is leading a double life and that he lied about being single.

      • I’m in this camp. I don’t do social media. I have a FB page that is locked down (it doesn’t even have a real picture of me) that I have not posted on since my birthday in May and a poorly tended Linked In (with only professional details). I do not have instagram, snap chat, or any other social media platforms. There is very little to find about me online and I can’t be bothered to do a deep dive on a random person I go out with. I hooked up with a guy from IT department at work for a while this summer sort of the same as “we met in bar” (we basically started hooking up without ever dating or really going through the motions of a relationship). I am assuming his story about his living situation/relationship status was true (i.e. he’s not married/girlfriend), but he could be a lying liar who lies. I can believe that someone hooked up with a guy from a bar a few times, didn’t think anything of it.

        I just can’t be bothered to care about someone who is probably just a hook up. If they may become something more, then I might start to pay attention to the details… but it doesn’t seem that off base to me.

    • Clara, this is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this site. This guy’s screen name is “Promiscuous with Principles.” This is the phrase they use to define “oxymoron” in the dictionary. And the IDEA that he wouldn’t immediately find out about a guy he’s fucking — on Facebook, through friends, whatever — is laughable. I even wonder if this might be a fake post — for what reason I have no earthly idea. If he’s a married gay man who trolls gay bars EVERYONE in that community would know about him.

      • edit: I don’t mean to sound Puritanical. If promiscuity is open, consensual, and honest then I have no problem with it.

          • There’s an essay by Michael Warner and Judith Butler called “Sex in Public” that I admire. The overall gist of the essay is that heterosexual sex as a “norm” is a loaded concept that criminalizes alternative forms of intimacy. So they might take issue with the term “promiscuity” — which inherently carries with it negative connotations while it also normalizes sexual behaviors that aren’t necessarily normal at all. I just meant to say that in my original response to Clare I didn’t mean to suggest that promiscuity is unprincipled if it’s a shared value — and it’s embraced honestly — within a specific community. I’ll shut up now 🙂

    • You know, I give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He doesn’t say how long he was hooking up with this person and God knows we as chumps missed or ignored a lot of red flags. I find it plausible that he didn’t check out his FB page — or do deeper sleuthing. Some people are hard to find on FB if you have an ordinary name or certain privacy settings.

      And NOTHING I read here sounded like PWP is “jealous.” Furthermore, there’s no PC “dog whistle” about being gay. In fact, I pointed out that a rebuke of homophobia would be the mindfuck he’d use, and the sad sausage story this guy tells for sympathy.

      And finally, OW who write to me? Who want to tell the spouse? I say TELL. I really don’t care if your motives are terrible. An OW told me. Did she want to blow up my marriage? Yep. I’m still glad for the information. Saved me further investment.

      There ARE unwitting OW and OM, and they’re chumps. I sniff bullshit on ones with long-term relationships, but this sounds like a guy at a bar hook-up.

      And why would someone concealing a double life baffle you? We are CHUMPS.

      • My STBX has a completely different name that he uses for his Craigslist hookups. He has a separate e-mail account. It would be impossible for a hook-up to find him on facebook. He also knocks 6 years off his age, 20 pounds off his weight, adds an inch to his height, and says he’s bi, but divorced. They lie to everyone. Trust that they suck! I believe PWP. But I’m quite a Chump.

        • AIFD – ‘He also knocks 6 years off his age,’

          I thought I was good at the investigation thing but how do you find somebody’s profile under those sites when their name is usually anonymous?

    • This sounds to me just like the shitty “blame the victim” crap I got after I was cheated on. I was told, “I must have known”. Well, guess what, I didn’t know. Pardon me for not being Sherlock Holmes, and actually trusting my partner.

          • Good point Maryez.

            The Limited had a script he repeatedly used. All straight from the cheaters handbook. And when caught dating three unsuspecting women (victims) I called two of them. He said he was unhappy for two years and in the process of divorce. The one who fell for it was a chump.

            It’s an honorable act for the victim in this case to care enough to inform the wife. It’s not a vengeful act; it’s basic human decency. I applaud him for his well adjusted moral compass.

    • I have to say, I’m a bit offended by the tone here. I, too, have slept with guys on the first date, and would consider myself promiscuous with principles. If some guy is going to advertise himself as available, why do I have to go sleuthing around to see if he’s telling the truth or not? Does that apply to emotional affairs as well as physical ones, then? If a guy wants to buy me a drink at a bar, do I have to ask to see his driver’s license to look him up on FB, etc., first?

      People suck. And it wasn’t until I learned the hard truth that married men will prowl that I even started asking if they were married. Frankly, it never occurred to me that a guy would be putting himself out there if he was already involved.

      No, it’s not my responsibility to credential guys who are cruising around. Now that I’m older, I can spot the signs more easily, but if someone is going to lie to you, and you’re a trusting person by nature? You’re gonna get played. — I mean, we all did, right?

    • No one on this page would have torn apart a woman who unwittingly slept with a man who she later found out was married, if he duped her. There is a huge difference between someone who gets into a relationship with someone who reports being single (but then turns out not to be) vs. most of the OW/OM in CN who got involved knowing a person was married. I’m pretty sure 99% of us would consider the first person to have been chumped, too.

      If PWP only wanted a hook-up relationship, he needn’t have been interested in Married-Gay-Guy’s Facebook page initially.

    • Gotta say Clara, I’m not a big fan of being lumped into your sweeping generalizations. You have declared that chump nation would have “torn this guy to bits” if he were a women.

      I guess the implication is also that you’re smarter than the rest of us and we can’t read?? I’ve been on this site for a few years and the only time I’ve seen CN tear the OP to bits is when they come here busting at the seams with entitlement and no remorse what so ever!

      I didn’t discern that from the PWP. I’m not acting all politically correct either. I feel as though he may be a chump.

      We’re all entitled to our opinions so here’s a suggestion: Express only your opinions and don’t presume to speak for everyone else or declare how we will act. It’s annoying.

      • Once again, I think it’s hard to empathize if it never happened to you. It happened to me, so I do know. “Are you married or involved with anyone?” “No.” — Hey, guess what, the answer was “Yes” and he lied!! Surprise!!

        We all want to be shredding the affair partners in these scenarios but it will always be my stance that it is our deceiving partners who were committed to us who are solely to blame. Why on earth a person would want to go chasing after someone who’s already committed to someone else, and what that says about that person’s self-esteem (and confidence that they won’t be next in line for a heaping dose of deception themselves!), I have no idea. But I had men try to start something with me when I was married, and I rebuffed them all. Because I was married. Period.

    • Gay man here (this is how I would like to answer the phone, by the way). I agree with Clara (though, maybe because I still have some of that low self-esteem, I’m a little taken aback by the tone of absolute certainty). I was probably 19 or 20 when I realized that some men you met were married. And yeah, I find it odd that someone 20 years younger than me doesn’t do an online checking out of someone he sleeps with on a regular basis. I do that for everyone I go on a single date with (some people don’t, but after a few dates and/or hook-ups, it seems very odd not to).

      • I don’t look up people that I go on every date. I just can’t be bothered. Actions speak louder than words, including words on the internet. Within 3 dates I need to see your place. Within 5 dates I need to meet some of your friends. Within a month we will have a standing date at least once a week, with a few reasonable exceptions. … and so on down the line. If at any point in this process the various checkpoints of are not met – that’s a red flag that will need to be investigated. I simply refuse to wind myself playing Sherlock Holmes to make sure that someone is being honest, when I have clear benchmarks that will tell me if this is a person who is honest, or if this is a person with something to hide. I am probably bit dogmatic at this point, but it’s pretty spot on.

        • Yep. I had a little fling with a guy about a year ago, and he said he was going to visit his dad for the weekend in a nearby town, so I asked him to send me a picture of him & his dad! — No picture. Red flag. So then I pushed a little harder and didn’t like the responses I got and broke it off. Might he have been innocent of any suspicions? Sure. But, as you said, actions speak louder.

          • Damn. I need to take notes NWBiblio and CAGal. I am a cellophaned sucker when it comes to dating techniques. I am seriously missing brain particles.

    • A Luddite Community? Faith, you must have Faith. Perhaps his values seperated him from the machinery. Just a though.

    • Clara! I was also wondering about these things when I read his question to Chump Lady:

      “You are fucking a man regularly that you met in a bar and had sex with the first night.

      Yet, you only look him up on Facebook after you *accidentally* run into him downtown with his wife and children.”

      ********
      While I too doubt this comes out of the Goodness of His Unselfish Principled Heart, I still think he should tell her because she absolutely needs to know!

    • Damn Clara, you are good! Had me fooled. If it ever happens, you are definitely being hired to vet the next guy I become seriously interested in.

    • 1. Actually not everyone goes Girl With A Dragon Tattoo cyberstalking with their hookups. I have no problem believing that this guy didn’t dig all through his fuckbuddy’s history – some of us feel that our internet time is better spent binge-watching netflix and reading erotic fanfiction on tumblr.

      2. There’s a very weird slut-shamey tone to this, as if not bothering to cyber-sleuth a hookup is the modern equivalent to fucking in the parking lot on the first date or whatever the true mark of a Jezebel is.

      3. “And now you are going to blow up his wife’s world because you got your feeling’s hurt?”
      Really? I think you’ll find it was the Husband who blew up his wife’s world by fucking a bunch of men behind his wife’s back. World’s already blown, baby! Giving the wife a head’s up about it is the kindest thing to do – and that doesn’t change if the LW is also angry about being deceived.

  • Sometimes it is hard to put people in boxes tho’
    Cheats can also be fun, charming, generous, plus at times shitty, mean and violent.
    The reason they get away with the gas lighting is the fact that they do have other qualities.
    A woman with three small daughters may not be ready to hear this and put the messenger (pwp)down as a nutter.
    Telling her will not be a bed of roses. Do it, but tread carefully.
    He of course will deny it all, but you will have sown the seed of doubt.

  • It’s ultimately a kindness to tell the wife, no matter the motivation. I wish any of the AP’s had told me, even if they had done so only to crow and humiliate. Truth really does set us free, even though it kills. Infedility is such a deep blow to the self-esteem that I can’t even imagine how devestating it must be to have gender identity and sexual orientation issues thrown in for good measure. Not an excellent legacy to leave with someone. Sigh. CL is wise to point out that we now live in a time when marriage and children can happen for anyone, so the excuse of needing to fake it in order to achieve that dream no longer flies. And you don’t have to live in a very progressive setting for that to be the case. Right here in the good old-fashioned Midwest, I know many gay and lesbian couples who are married, and some who have adopted. Humans, sigh. Totally heat what Clara is saying–high expectations of a bar hook-up sure don’t make much sense–but that wife’s world is already blowing up–she just doesn’t know it quite yet. Better to tell, even if the motivations aren’t the best and the execution is not stellar. Of course kindness and compassion would be best of all, but ultimately knowing is better for her than not knowing. Facts give her the ability to make informed decisions rather than carrying on a losing game with nothing but vague disquiet to go on.

    • Lol. I need to write offline. The errors, oh, the errors. Interesting discussion around the hook-up. Agree that consenting adults who are open and honest can do as they wish, but the likelihood of those conditions being met by a hook-up seems surpassingly slim. A few hours–often alcohol fueled ones–in, people know pretty much nothing about each other. Heck, 28 years in (34, if you count the dating phase), I *still* knew pretty much nothing. I don’t think it is judgmental or mean to point that out. Particularly for chumps, sharpening the discernment can only be a good thing.

  • I wish someone had told me that my husband had had gay affairs in his late teens, twenties, thirries, and probably forties, before and during his marriage(s). My husband knew I had several gay and lesbian friends (dvrn named one of our kids after one of my gay friends). I asked my husband before we got married if he had ever had a gay relatiinship. He lied, saying ‘no.’ Him telling the truth would not have been a big deal and not a deal breaker. After he left me, he told me that he had had gay affairs over the years. I asked him why he hadn’t told the truth when so asked him a decade earlier. He told me that he was afraid I would leave him and that his gay life was ‘just a phase.’ Yeah–life-long phase, just like his cheating. Wish someone had informed me of his secret life andxalerted me to his lies before I married him and bore his children (inadvertently created innocent victims). The truth delivered early would have soared several people a lifetime of grief and load of broken dreams in terms of love, career, financial security).

    • RSW

      You wrote “Him telling the truth would not have been a big deal and not a deal breaker. ”
      I guess this is where you see it was all about entitlement and control. The lie was all about this as you were actually comfortable if he had, you just wanted the honesty – he wasn’t afraid or confused as Dixie said. Just entitled.

        • When I first discovered my X was gay and confronted him, it was with the intention of fully supporting him in coming out. Chump that I was, I actually felt sympathy for him and was relieved to think that now he could be his authentic self with me.

          Wrong! Instead I was met with the most hateful torrent of verbal abuse I’ve ever experienced, peppered with gaslighting admissions such as, “Sure I have same sex attractions, everyone does, but that doesn’t make me gay–the real problem in our marriage is that you are a crazy, pathetic bitch!”

          • ^^^^ This ^^^^

            Cheaters favourite sayings is “we both brought issues to the marriage, I’ve taken responsibility for mine but you are still angry ( only when dealing with his entitled self)”
            Cheater believes because he hid behind church leaders and remarried when I filed that he is the accountable and honest one. I am still just the crazy bitch that won’t yield her boundaries where he is concerned.

            • Yep, mine said exactly the same thing about how I wouldn’t take responsibility for the issues in our marriage, i.e. ALL of them. Meanwhile, they commit an act that any judge or jury would find to be an automatic cause for divorce–cheating, being gay, cheating while being gay, emotionally abusing us–and use it to claim the high road.

  • PWP – Tell her…. but in a dignified way as possible. She may be blindsided, but she may not.

    I discovered Mr. Sparkles promoting himself as a BiMWM on certain personal ad sites. He was looking for women/couples/groups. His web browser showed that he looked at as many T4M personals as he did M4W ads.

    He is a whore. Bi, straight, gay, whatever. It is about whatever sexual opportunity presents himself. To quote from CL’s book… “he’s slutty.”

    When I first discovered some of this, and he vehemently denied it, the MC suggested he wear condoms to earn back my trust. He refused – said it would be like admitting guilt. Our marriage became sexless (for me at least) and he continued to kibble hunt.

    Tell her. You deserve better and so does she and her daughters. We’re here for you both.

  • Why do certain cheaters lie and target trusting chumps?
    Didn’t you know the most desirable thing for a person is something you do not or can not have? If you have no trust or empathy, someone with those traits is very desirable to you.
    If you can’t BE loyal, having your partner be loyal is a close second.

    Another reason is EVERYONE wants a “good” partner. Even if you can’t be that type of partner back.
    Many traits of chumps are actually highly desirable, I would venture to say this is why many cheaters critique and erode chumps self image, to bring them down, so the cheater feels justified in their actions.

    Either way, it’s a not healthy relationship, by our current cultural standards anyway. Unfortunately, in many cases the chump is not given this hidden other information, so they are unwittingly kept in these relationships.

  • Dear PWP;
    How unfortunate that you found this out this way. Not only were you sold a bill of goods, but your cheater has such disdain for openly gay people he has to go to such great lengths to write a cover story (boo hoo) to excuse his inexcusable actions.

    It’s sick on a new level to consider he actively pursued someone who would not otherwise taken part in the charade. By deception cheater turned you into something you would never agree to being, the “other person” in a marriage. If he could do this manipulation in a span of months, imagine what his wife gets subjected to over years….

    I am truly sorry that you wound up here. It is the pits. I hope you can move forward away from this troll quickly.

    • This was nice, Magneto. The anger and disgust in some of the comments above yours is really disturbing to me. Maybe PWP needs to fix his picker. Maybe he is angry and wants to blow shit up (I did!).
      I do think he was hurt too. And gets credit for trying to do the right thing.

  • Closet cheater is more than likely just a run of the mill sociopath. Sociopaths can easily have relations with their own sex or the opposite, doesn’t matter. It is more of what/who is available and what the person of the moment can provide at said time. I’m sure closet cheater also has women on the side as well. Closet cheater is going to have to come up with a better story as the “afraid to come out” bit is so lame for this day & age.

    • I don’t get this, especially when using the term “run of the mill sociopath.”

      “Closet cheater is more than likely just a run of the mill sociopath. Sociopaths can easily have relations with their own sex or the opposite, doesn’t matter. It is more of what/who is available and what the person of the moment can provide at said time.”

      Sociopaths do not have a sexual preference?

      Sociopaths have sex with anyone regardless of their sexual preference?

      For sociopaths, sex does not have the same meaning as sex does for the mainstream, so the partner’s gender is irrelevant?

    • This… seems a little biphobic. Some people are straight. Some are gay. Some are bi. None of these orientations have anything to do with promiscuity or moral fiber. A sociopath is no more likely to be bi than anyone else.

  • Well, before I launch into my own version of this same story, let me just say that I truly regret you had to experience the other side of the deception, PWP. You are an honorable guy and you certainly did not deserve to be treated so despicably. I am so sorry.

    I do hope that you will tell the wife in as direct a way as you can. Why? Because I too was that wife. Thirty years married to a guy who continued to carry on with his high school boyfriend the entire marriage with plenty of gym whores sprinkled in for good measure. My ex knew exactly what he was doing. He was not confused or frightened. I read a few of his emails in which he spelled out quite clearly that keeping his bisexuality secret was the best way to ensure maintaining good access to the female gender. Because apparently not that many women are interested in sleeping with a guy who is *also* sleeping with men. Who would have guessed. The reason it is so crucial that you tell the wife, PWP, is because it is terribly difficult for a wife to detect this deception. I knew for a fact that my husband was traveling with and spending a lot of time with his friend. And I even knew the friend was gay. But it honestly never occurred to me that my husband was bi … yes, I am just that oblivious. I suspect most women would be similarly easy to dupe.

    In the end, however, finding out they are gay or bi ends up being irrelevant. The primary insult is still the same … cheating and betrayal. They just truly suck … literally in this case.

    • Dixie
      I like the part where you spell out that your ex knew exactly what he was doing and was not scared or confused about his sexuality as CL said above, today things are different and he knew exactly what would play and what would not.
      Before I was a chump I used to think about cheating mainly as men cheating on women with women. Now I know differently.
      Please don’t answer if you don’t want to but I wonder – does it complicate Chump recovery for your ex to cheat with the same gender?
      I guess for you it was even more than that.

        • Capricorn – ‘Please don’t answer if you don’t want to but I wonder – does it complicate Chump recovery for your ex to cheat with the same gender?’

          I have also been completely duped after over 3 decades of marriage, but I always wondered in the back of my brain if he was gay and it wasn’t ME that he wasn’t attracted to.

          When I knew he was having an affair and prior to me having proof, I was totally convinced it was with another man and he just couldn’t bring himself to tell me this. (he always used to say that I never really knew him..that he had a dark side). Chump that I am, I felt incredibly sorry for him that he must have had to closet that part of himself for so long because of his farmer upbringing. Poor fella! I sat him down….holding his hand….saying..It’s okay, honey, you can tell me all you want. You will feel a lot better, patting his hand. (hoping to be supportive if he had a boyfriend)

          Well, holy fucking shit of a motherfucker – he tells me it’s with my best friend and they’re in love with each other.
          Fuck that fuck that fuck that. It was not what I was expecting at all.
          I said, so it’s NOT a man? It’s that whore instead, a woman?

          Let me tell you, it would have been much much easier if it had been with another man and I would have been friends with them both and supporting their lifestyle, even though my sex life was ripped off for so many years.

          All he did was….he never changed….he wanted to keep up his good farmer image for his work, not to mention this gal will run circles around him, being his ‘nurse’. Just like I used to do when I was 10 yrs younger too. Nice con-job if you can ‘handle’ it.

        • My mother said it was a sprinkle of both. It was ‘easier’ in some ways, because he didn’t reject ‘her’ per se, ‘just’ her gender! Or as she put it, ‘I just didn’t have the right equipment’ (umm, normal sex life and 4 kids, okay Mum, lol.) But harder at first as well. I recall that year of wreckonciliation (when no one knew) and for some years afterwards, Mum became ultra-feminine. She always was a feminine person, who took care of her appearance, but it cranked up. Infidelity diet dropped about 15 kilos off her already pretty slim build. Nails, hair, makeup, clothing, etc were all cranked up a notch (obsessive almost?) She says it was like her femininity was questioned. If he – a gay man – was married to her, what were the ‘butch’ qualities he saw in her? Hard to articulate. Probably also just a huge crashing of self esteem. So she wanted to feel ‘prettier’ and admired as a woman?

          • horsesrcumin
            I like a lot of things about your posts today. Your openness and willingness to share, your pushing back on any pity and your obvious ability to still be joyful and hopeful about much of life despite everything. I really loved hearing about your mom though. Your love and respect for the strength and sheer grit she had. I like to hear about these strong women who just coped and prevailed. It gives me a bit more ooomph to just flat out keep going.
            thanks for sharing.

          • Makes a lot of sense, horses. She must have been rocked to the core, am I enough woman, what’s wrong with my “equipment”, and also wanting to look pretty for herself. She sounds amazing.

  • Chumps, raise your hand if you wish you found out LATER than you did that your spouse was cheating on you! …

    Or, raise your hand because you’re thankful to have found out as late as you did, after some sort of other life trauma during which you’re happy you were ignorant about your spouse fucking someone else! …

  • It’s hard to know who to feel worse for in this scenario. PWP or this guy’s poor wife.

    PWP if you do decide to tell, please do it with compassion and as many have mentioned, please direct her to chump lady immediately. Also, while I think it would be nice to be available to answer questions for this woman, please do it from a distance. There is still so much prejudice with regard to gay people and you never know how someone in this type of situation is going to react.

    Beyond that, the rest of your questions are just about untangling the skein. Gay or straight, race, nationality, religion and income have no impact on this fact: Cheaters suck. You weren’t looking to this guy for a long term relationship so I’m not sure that preaching to fix your picker is the right thing to do here but maybe some more research into the guys you spend time with may be in order to keep yourself from having the role of “Other Person” again.

    Sorry he did this to you and his wife.

  • PWP,
    A colleague of my Cheater, a complete stranger to me, was the one who came to my car window and told me of his affair.

    I felt devastated at the time, but I have been eternally grateful to that young man for giving me a heads up so I could line up my ducks and throw the fucktard out on my terms.

    The chumped wife may initially be mad at you for being the messenger, but at some point in the future she will be glad you were honest.

    • You bring up such a good point.
      PWP is hurting, and while I absolutely think he should tell the wife, I think he should prepare himself for how she may react. With anger? Disbelief? Denial? Sadness? He is definitely being the good guy, but she may not see him that way. She might blame him.

  • I’ think this guy is lying. As I said earlier PYP stated the cheat was closeted…..So when PYP sees this guy with a woman he then chooses to check his Fakebook status???? If it were another guy PYP would be cool. He just can’t get into the bi thing. married gay thing, ok.
    He’s a ho who sleeps with strangers I’d say the same about a woman. You sleep with strangers you meet at a bar and worry about their status later? That’s a ho. Being gay does not give you a pass. He’s pissed because the cheat is married to a woman and has kids. Drama. I hope his wife kicks both of their asses!

      • I thought this was about PYP.

        “A few months ago, I met a guy at a bar. We hit it off, and I invited him back to my place. I asked him if he was single; he said he was. He also said he was closeted. We started hooking up regularly.
        Then, a week ago, I happened to see him downtown with a woman and two kids. Surprised, I looked him up on Facebook, and found out that he has a wife and three daughters.”

        This guy met a stranger in a bar, took him home. Then asked if he were single. Next he sexed him up.
        Serial killer maybe, HIV status, marrital status maybe in the top 5 when you consider the alternative outcome. Even here in very conservative fly over country PYP is lying.

        “I’m starting to wonder if he’s actually bisexual, and I’m just a typical “other woman”.”

        There’s the rub.

        • “You sleep with strangers you meet at a bar and worry about their status later? That’s a ho. ”

          This is where I interpreted your comments were not just about PYP. If I ask if he’s single, and he says he is, then I’ve done my due diligence. Also, if anyone ever asks about my number of partners? That is absolutely none of their fucking business.

          As far as I’m concerned, OW should have been able to dance naked in front of XH and he should have said, “No, thank you.” The blame is on the deceivers. Clearly we disagree on this point.

          • Yes! A lot of judgement here about when he slept with him and the fact that he didn’t Facebook stalk him immediately. Wtf?
            I slept with my current boyfriend on our first date and I don’t regret it one. fucking. bit.
            The past two days there has been a lot of negativity and judgement here. And it feels crappy.

        • This does look cribbed from a Lifetime TV movie:

          “Then, a week ago, I happened to see him downtown with a woman and two kids. Surprised, I looked him up on Facebook, and found out that he has a wife and three daughters.”

          Oh noes!!!!

    • I don’t think we should fling around names for people who engage in mutually consensual sexual liasons. Our disapproval should be reserved for those who deceive and manipulate others.

      • PYP in my opinion is lying. If you have consensual sex, most people try and get some type of info regarding their health status and perhaps the number of partners. If you choose not to determine if a potential sexual encounter is married is that a form of lying by ommission?. It sounds very close to OW saying to the wife I didn’t commit to you.
        If you you sleep with a person, especially today you are responsible for whatever fall out may occur if you get caught. It’s not going to make any difference to the non cheating spouse. ijs

        • Then we all lied by omission. Raise your hand if you had NO red flags ever, at any point, about your spouse’s cheating. If you found out and then reconciled, you just ignored a HUGE red flag. Does that mean than not a single one of us on this page was actually betrayed because we ignored red flags? Hardly. The heartbreak, the PTSD symptoms all say we were betrayed greatly.

          By your standards, any of us that did not go into marriage police mode when our Xs had to “work late” or who passcode-protected their phone, lied by omission. PWP asked the guy if he was single, and Married-Liar said yes. Should PWP have immediately have signed up for Spokeo to make sure before they had sex? Conducted a background check?

          You can personallydisapprove of PWP merely wanting a hookup rather than a relationship, without implying that he “should have known,” or impugning his motives, or by calling people who engage in consensual sex names.

          Keep your eye on what is the problem here–the deception.

          • I beg to differ. If you are in a marriage (or committed relationship) your spouse has entered into a contractual agreement not to do certain things. Comparing marriage vows to casual sex not in the same league.
            Sex with strangers is a mine field. As someone so eloquently stated even prostitues have standards. Why would anyone expect truth and honesty from a stranger when the goal is sex. Not the same as marriage.

            I agree, the focus should remain on PYP and his behavior. My voice maybe in the minority here, but he is lying.

            If you choose to engage in casual sex, there are consequences. Marriages, sti’s, and HIV. I’ve lost too many friends and family from casual sex. ijs

          • Tempest, I raise my hand. I had no red flags about his cheating. His demand for a menage a trois came out of nowhere as far as I was concerned. I had no idea, the one thing I believed him to be completely incapable of is cheating. I had red flags about him being psychologically unstable, then I saw him turn mean over the years (but it took at least 2 years to start showing itself). That’s what was so insiduous about his abuse, it ramped up slowly, accompanied by bouts of depression and blaming me for being too harsh and distrustful. By year 3-4 there was violence to livestock, but I put a stop to it, or so I thought. He never did it again in front of me. I found out from a neighbour last week that he actually did it in front of him once, which astounded me, because he had convinced me that I pushed him over the edge by being so incompetent, so this, so that. Obviously it had nothing to do with me. It wasn’t until 2013 that I saw the darkest side, when he tried to convince his second son to disown his mother. I was horrified at this and said so. But I repeat, there were never any red flags about infidelity.

            • I had no explicit red flags about the cheating either, but the devalue is a red flag; we just didn’t realize it at the time, anymore than PWP could have been expected to know Married-Liar’s “lie face.”

              My objection is to Renewed’s assertions that PWP a-should have known Married-Gay-Guy was lying because people who hook up are morally shady anyway (in her eyes), and b- that the subtle signs that someone is lying can be detected easily. It was one year AFTER D-day that I fully understood my X’s lie-face, and we had been together 24 years. Hindsight is 50/50.

              While I’m at it, count me as perturbed that Clara, who appears to be a newcomer, has in 2 days savaged both a valued member of CN (Capricorn) and a letter writer harshly, without a great deal of tact. WTF?

              • There were no red flags – that I COULD SEE – at the time. That is kind of the way this works, kiwi, isn’t it? That there were clues, but we are unable to identify them until you drag through the history? Hindsight is always 20/20 – isn’t that the saying? I honestly had no clue. But there were some things that maybe I ‘should’ have been wary of. That is kinda how trust works. I only recall my hackles raising right near what must have been the end of their affair, once, one night as we were curled up on the couch together, all snuggly. And I thought I was having a moment! Nope, that was a red flag tickling the back of my neck, right then and there.

              • Ok, I included a vid that speaks to some conversions around consensual sex. Both talked about casual hookups and the one involved a conversation about the term ho. The characters even discussed born again virgins. In the end the characters, two powerful attractive women came to an agreement about consensual sex.
                If you have sex with strangers be safe. If you have sex with strangers without vetting them, chances are you will sleep with a married man. If the wife finds out….

                I don’t buy PYP’s story. So I called it as I saw it. Revenge. I didn’t call anyone on here a ho, but some chose to identify themselves as such.

                As far as “pious judgy” whatever, I do not have a hell to send anyone to. As chumps we are learn discernment.

                Quite frankly I’m suprised at the sensitivity to the word considering the language we normally use. We are all adults here talking about sex and cheating after all.

                PYP exhibited ho behavior and was pissed because cheater had a wife and kids and was bi.

              • ENOUGH! Seriously, I’m pretty sure we all know who [correction: who does NOT] believe PWP and thinks that having a one-night stand makes you a “ho” vs. those who admire PWP for doing something to help 2 chumps (the wife and himself) & are not willing to accept the definition of “ho” from 2 women in a Youtube video who do not appear to have semantics expert credentials.

                Now, make this a place of healing or I’ll start deleting posts.

              • Thanks, Tempest, for speaking up. I feel like CL is a pretty amazing place, given that we all have our own stories, opinions, moralities … in spite of a shared traumatic event(s). I guess that’s why I’m always surprised anew when posters come across as harsh or judgey — I think we’re basically a nice group, and I think (especially with our shared history of having been deceived!) we understand empathy is a nice first step especially if a person has been wounded. (I’m sure it’s not just me who perceives a bit of heartache in PYP’s letter.)

              • This is great dialogue. It proves to me more and more how backwards I am regarding peoples motives. I belong sequestered in a cave, but my curiosity gets the best of me to continue reading the debate on “To Tell the Truth”.

                When I see an outright lie, I can deal with it. But the fog of deceit baffles me. What work, what energy, what prowess goes into telling a lie. This is THE reason one should never look back when confronted with the completely dishonest act of cheating. The work it takes to make that pile of shit intimately shows the intent of the mother fucker trying to shove it down your throat.

                So PWP, real or fictitious, and regardless of your motives, tell the poor women her husband is a cheat. Because in the end, it really has nothing to do with you, because you are aware and everything to do with the chump who is not.

              • Thank you. Today and yesterday have left me with a bad taste in my mouth. This place has never felt judgey until now. I don’t know if it is the political climate making me extra sensitive or the political climate making people feel freer to act like assholes. Either way, it really sucks. And I am not in the mood for it.

        • “If you have consensual sex, most people try and get some type of info regarding their health status and perhaps the number of partners.”

          Irresponsible as you may think find it, your assertion is not actually true when it comes to one-night gay hookups/ Having said that, this was a continuing thing, so I’d expect PWP to have done a little more research.

        • “f you you sleep with a person, especially today you are responsible for whatever fall out may occur if you get caught. It’s not going to make any difference to the non cheating spouse.”

          I disagree. Cheaters, sociopaths, covert narcs or just plain lying assholes that are married seek out innocent victims. As angry as I was with the ones who knowingly fucked the Limited while married with three children I have great empathy for the good women he told he was in the process of a divorce.
          He PREYED on their vulnerability. The woman he duped was physically abused in her previous relationship. She was an easy target. He fucking dated her and primed her while dating others. She was an intelligent woman who owned her own home. He PRIMED her and she slept with him unaware he was a sociopath. I blame him. She was a victim. It made a difference to me. These are very disordered con men. They are selfish predators.

          Nanthony is a cunt. That’s the difference. She knew. Equals.

          • Divorcing is married. X often referred to the women he slept with while divorcing as ho s. In his eyes you could never elevate your status.
            I don’t get the women are free to be sexually free on one hand then on the other damaged fragile beings being manipulated by men.
            I’ve said it before a woman knows if she’s going to have sex when she gets dressed to go out….before she sees or meets you at the club.

            • Renewed

              Yes, divorcing IS married. I should have been more clear.
              When he was dating I was unaware. We were NOT divorcing. My job requires a rental and I came home on weekends. I called to ask what he wanted to do when I came home and he said, “I’m dating, found someone, and want a divorce.
              1. The woman he was dating believed him as he is a malignant narcissist. She was innocent. I spoke to her and she was mortified and dumped him. She was a victim. There was no doubt about this.
              2. He met her at the gym. Not in a club. She wasn’t a whore.
              3. All the other women he cheated with were whores in my mind. They knew he was married and didn’t care.
              4. They were all the sane to HIM, supply.

              I just started dating, finally. I’m trying to navigate ‘single’.
              I have single friends who are younger and meet up and have sex with single men. I feel like I’ve been in a locked box most of my life. The Limited was the only person I ever slept with.

              I think you are tslking about accountability. The Limited ended uo with a bar whore who knew he was married. At the end of day there will always be other women in his life. He didn’t leave me because of the other woman. He left because he’s never satisfied and never will be.

              We Loved to much.

      • Thank you Tempest! Calm the pious, judgey comments about PWP’s sex choices the fuck down people! I read this letter as pretty genuine, not revenge-y. Lots of gay guys loathe the married-to-a-woman sexual tourists that frequent these spaces to hook up. Not everyone is getting off on deceiving random spouses of guys they wanna fuck. Geez! Hey, maybe some are. But I wager they are in the minority here. The tone of the letter was indignation at being chumped from the other side. Have you never had a female friends hook up with a guy, only to discover later he wasn’t single, and dump him? I sure have had those friends. And I love them dearly because they are also promiscuous with principles.

          • I’m not talking about ‘orientation’ I am meaning his choice to have consensual sex with bar hook ups – hey, this happens all the time, gay, straight, in between. I mean, don’t assume that his choices make him a liar or a cheat. He seems pretty genuine. There is no entitlement or blame-shifting in his letter. You may not agree with casual sexual liaisons – the point of his pseudonym entirely – but he is saying he wasn’t up for being led down the garden path by a fake-straight, married troll. Big ups to him, I say! I have had female friends have this happen to them too. Married guys posing as singles. No one is reinventing the wheel here – there are sleazeballs everywhere. And the single ones are bad enough, but dragging a partner and children along for the ride is abusive and entitled.

            • horsesrcumin, thank you for speaking up, came here late to read and the judgement on casual sex is ridiculous. I think part of the problem was the letter writers choice of words, ie; promiscuous. Unfortunately it has a connotation that invites moral judgement. Casual sex can be fun and there is no reason to blame someone who expected the societal contract to be upheld with an honest answer to “are you single”. It’s not that high a damn bar. If someone is against hookups then fine, everyone has their own thing. Doesn’t mean they are morally superior. Just different, no need to fuck with those of us who can enjoy sex without monogamy. Pun intended.

              • Love this dat! So much yes! I don’t consider that I have never had casual sex. Unless you count a lazy fuck with your beloved on a sunny afternoon, lol. I have only ever had sex with the ex, and that was kinda started as a summer fling, but not a ONS situation. I identified early in my life that it isn’t for me – yet? (I’m 49, there’s still time, lol.) But, I have NO judgement of it, none. Most of my friends, if not all, have done this at some point in their lives, I know my kids have/do. It is the real world here. Sex is GREAT. Have fun, do it, it’s good for your heart, body, soul. Do it as safely as possible (yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s no 100% safe way – but hell, wearing your seatbelt doesn’t guarantee your car won’t crash either/you might drown in your bath – LIVE!) ALWAYS with yours and your (even-if-only-for-the-moment) partner(s)’ emotional health in mind. Do it with protection. I am very much pro-sex, would carry a banner and march for that shit! Trying to say that casual, consensual, feel-good sex – however that comes about – is wrong is writing off a great deal of fab people on this forum – and in real life!

                I felt the use of promiscuous by the letter writer was tongue in cheek – a way of owning a label that has been used against those, like himself, who love sex – kinda like the reclaiming of “fat” or “queer.”

              • Awww, Dat — how nice to hear your voice here. These sorts of conversations are always better understood in person, where someone can speak up and say, “Hey! Did you just call me a ‘ho’?” and people can laugh (or not) about it, clarify if need be. Frankly, if I were feeling prickly (which I am, but I’ll confine it because electronic communication can be easy to misinterpret), there are all sorts of words flung around here which are annoying.

                But, whatever. If one does not approve of casual sex, then one should not have casual sex. I, OTOH, do not fall into that category.

              • *EVER, ever had casual sex (not never) – I think I need a professional proofreader to post here! (I’ve been a one guy kinda woman. Think that is who I am.)

              • Well said! This is the CN I know and love.
                I have been reading here sporadically today and feeling like I fell into the fucking twilight zone.

          • “It’s not about PYP’s sexual orientation.”

            You’re right. It’s about you and your slut-shamey judgy assholery. PWP did nothing wrong. He’s not obligated to do full background checks on his hookups. Stop blaming him for the fact that a married jerk lied to everyone.

            • Traffic, I appreciate your passionate defense but the way you’ve written this comes across as “judgy assholery” as well.

              I think Tempest made it perfectly clear just above you that CL is a place for compassionate and civil conversation and support.

              People who share here are vulnerable and, as in any group setting, it’s hard to have a different take than the majority. I’m not always that good at it, but please hear my plea for assuming the best intentions of those who post.

        • When I was in the marriage police I spent a lot of time reading through the Craig’s List men-looking-for-men forums in my area (and of course found a post from my X). There are plenty of married men on there who own up to their status and many of them are looking for other married men to hook up with. Still despicable behavior because these men are not disclosing their gay status to their wives, but there are enough of them out there that I can easily see why PWP would not have thought to assume this man was married.

    • Renewed, if PWP saw him with another man, and all they’d had were casual hookups so far, he would probably think the guy is hanging out with another hookup and that’s fine because they’re both promiscuous and single, so there’s no issue. Seeing him with a woman and kids was a red flag that maybe he wasn’t single and something didn’t add up.

      • Excellent point Kiwichump. Dude says he’s a closeted gay and our letter writer sees him under those circumstances. With the remarks I’ve seen from some here, such as renewed, it’s no wonder our dear letter writer hasn’t posted.

        • Thanks for popping in despite the judgment and speculation from a few people who don’t represent the welcoming spirit of CN. I hope you can see that the vast majority of us appreciate your intentions and are grateful that you are willing to do the right thing on behalf of someone who’s clearly been wronged by her husband. Having been in the same situation myself, I know I would have been eternally grateful if one of my X’s APs would have told me years ago that he was on the down-low.

  • What blows my mind the most weather gay not gay whatever…..how do these cheaters do what they do with no concern that someone can drop on a dime on them in a heart beat….with real good proof texts phone calls………..how delusional these people are and……arrogant….btw…I believe most Chumps know in there gut something’s not right they just don’t want to call the cheater on the carpet be int $ kids lifestyle …whatever…it’s very easy to find out if someones cheating….very

    • I do not believe most chumps know in their gut and stay for money, kids, lifestyle. Most chumps trust and thus don’t see what uninvolved persons might more easily detect. It’s not that we didn’t want to know the truth … we thought we already did know it completely and so looked no further. Your comment is very insulting.

    • Wrong. Many of our cheaters have advanced degrees in deception and manipulation. I am not an intellectual midget, but my X was probably cheating on me for all 19 years of our marriage, and I did not twig because there were NO warning signs–home for dinner every night, called me each evening when he was out of town, always had a legitimate reason if he was out late (department function).

      Please don’t further victimize people who have already been hurt by saying that they “must have known” and are just in love with a life style. I would give several fingers to have had a poorer lifestyle with someone who cherished me.

      • Tempest – I could not agree more that many of our cheaters had advanced degrees in deception and manipulation. That’s how we ended up in 20 year marriages with serial cheaters. They are that good at what they do. For those of us who did feel in our gut something was not right at times, like me, for someone to suggest that we deliberately stuck our heads in the sand to avoid confrontation or to preserve a lifestyle demonstrates such a staggering lack of awareness of the subject area that one does not know where to begin a response. Perhaps it’s just best just to leave it at, as you said, “wrong.”

        • Yes, and how many times did we all confront our cheaters, only to be blamed for our suspicious nature while simultaneously being offered plausible explanations and/or lame reassurances?

          Lord knows I never stuck my head in the sand . . . I was constantly rooting around in the sand looking for some kind of explanation that would square what I was seeing with what I was being told. It wasn’t until I found evidence that there was no reconciling the two that I filed–money, lifestyle, status be damned.

        • I agree, JK. And those occasional feelings in our gut that our cheaters were a bubble short of plumb, are not the same as knowing they were cheating. Not until a person experiences infidelity and gets schooled in the subtle signs (the devalue, the phone-affixed-to-hip) could we have known the significance of those subtle clues. It wasn’t until a year after my divorce that I could look back and see all the deception in its fully glory.

          • I agree wholeheartedly. It’s been almost two years since my divorce, and it has taken me that long to do the same – to piece it all together and see the marriage for the charade it was from her side. What may be obvious in hindsight, and after a hard earned and painful education, wasn’t then.

    • Wow, another harsh attitude. Are we getting trolled here again?

      Here’s my story, Margo, in a nutshell: XH is tired, XH opened his own business five years ago and has been working six days a week for that entire time, mostly without pay. XH is trying to be a successful businessman. I perceive that XH is tired and a bit withdrawn, but who wouldn’t be, trying to start a small business out there working against the big box stores? He told me he loved me every day. He said he couldn’t wait until the business made some progress so he could be home with me more.

      Do you see red flags in that situation? Because I don’t. I loved my husband, trusted that when he said he was going to work, that he WAS going to work (after all, *I* did, and as far as I know, he didn’t have a private detective following ME around!).

      I did not see red flags, and neither did many of the chumps here. If you meant your remarks as you stated them, then I am offended by your remarks. If you did not, then you should be more careful with your words.

    • Margo, I was going to stay off this bog today but your comment lit my fuse. My brother had no idea, not one, that his wife was cheating. She was a little reserved for a couple of days so as a concerned spouse he asked if she was ok and if anything was wrong. She just casually told him she was leaving, and did, and tore a family apart. No. Many chumps have no idea because they aren’t cheaters so they assume their spouses aren’t.
      PwP, thank you for being a good guy. I am so sorry your family reacted as they did. You deserve better than that. At 24 you have a lot more maturity than cheaters twice your age.

    • Wellll Margo … how do you explain the chumps who are the ones in the marriage with the $$$ and are paying for the lifestyle?

      Why the hell do they keep the parasitic barnacle attached to their ass?

  • So the man sleeps with strangers. We may not agree with his lifestyle but at least he draws the line at MARRIED strangers! I wish my sister in law and cheater were as discriminating.

  • I live in the South — and it is still hard for people to be open about their orientation. I have friends who are gay, both male and female, some are open, some are not. But they are ALL careful. I don’t know why someone’s orientation is threatening, but a partner should be honest. Intimacy with anyone means taking chances, and the devastation comes from having trusted and been betrayed. The risks were not yours to evaluate, the choice was taken away from you. The person who operates in secret may well love the power and the control, the person who was chumped may end up paying a terrible price for trusting another person. That is the crux of the issue.

    I understand that different people have different sexual mores. Without acting as a judge about whether this is right or that is wrong, or whether one should be with this one or with another, I think the most important issue facing most people in today’s world is “Is this safe?”. Probably no sex is safe anymore, but without honesty, no one can make any assumptions, or evaluate the risk, at all. It seems to me that if you meet a stranger at a bar, and bring them home, and choose to have sex, you are taking a great deal of risk. I realize being married to a serial cheater and liar I endured a lot of risk I had never factored in — that is part of the anger and resentment. I should have been able to trust my spouse, according to my moral code. If I choose to be with a stranger, I do not have the right to that assumption. Asking whether or not the pick-up is married offers no assurance of a truthful answer. The other side of the coin is — being married to someone is no assurance of a truthful answer either. Whether we like to admit it, or not, everyone and anyone can be duped.

    I believe that if you take your time, and do not put yourself into dangerous, high risk situations, you may mitigate the amount of risk you take . If you see someone over a period of time, in a variety of circumstances, and communication appears to be free and honest, you will feel better about your decision to take a risk. It does not mean you won’t be fooled, but the likelihood is less if you take some time and do some due diligence. I never liked to be put in a situation where someone “expected” to have intimate relations with me, anyway. If they are in too much of a hurry, it turns me off, even more. It is not a question of being a “ho” or not — even prostitutes have to evaluate their risk when they are going to be with a new client. The overwhelming need for immediate gratification is a red flag for me. If someone is desperate to know me that way, when there is no way to know me in the most important way, that tells me they don’t want me to know them, either.

    I was pretty careful — but I still ended up being “useful” for many years. At least I did not have to chide myself for taking an impatient leap into my troubles. The lies, and the cheating, were clearly on my partner. I was a trusting chump, but I wasn’t in a hurry. I was glad when I found out the truth, even though it was a horrible experience. It opened my eyes to what was possible, and answered many questions about actions that had seemed improbable before.

    For PWP, tell the truth to the spouse. Not for yourself, but for her sake. Someone needs to be truthful with her. PWP needs to seriously consider how he can continue to have an expectation of truthful behavior from someone with little to no commitment to him as a person. Sure, he can get chumped, just as the rest of CN has been chumped, but slowing down his timeline, and perhaps not being so promiscuous should also lower his risk of this situation happening again, or at least as often.

    I have found that having no expectation of being told the truth, I am not disappointed as often. I don’t like living in a world where I assume I am being lied to, but it seems to be a more realistic way of living than I experienced when I was young.

    • “I think the most important issue facing most people in today’s world is “Is this safe?”. Probably no sex is safe anymore, but without honesty, no one can make any assumptions, or evaluate the risk, at all. It seems to me that if you meet a stranger at a bar, and bring them home, and choose to have sex, you are taking a great deal of risk.”
      and
      “even prostitutes have to evaluate their risk when they are going to be with a new client. The overwhelming need for immediate gratification is a red flag for me. If someone is desperate to know me that way, when there is no way to know me in the most important way, that tells me they don’t want me to know them, either.”

      Exactly!

      • Renewed-I find your comments and tone to be extremely judgmental and offensive. I have had casual sex, and I am not a ho, slut, etc. I have friends that have done the same as well, AND I know a lot of people that dated for a long time and/or got married after meeting in a bar and sleeping together pretty quickly.

        I don’t know your story, but how would you feel if someone said something negative about you for the choices you made with your ex? What if someone labeled you as “pathetic” for the choices you made in your life? I only use that word as an example, because I think it is on par with calling someone a “ho”.

        If someone wants to deceive a trusting person, they will find a way. Whether they play on the other person’s naivete or the other person’s long-standing trust in them.

    • Portia, in theory what you say makes a lot of sense. But, when I met the traitor I was very, very careful. I checked him out, I picked him because he had a decent profile in the community as a local councilor and he was retraining to be a primary school teacher. I met his ex and made sure I had her approval to be in their son’s life. I met HER parents and grandmother, who all seemed to fine with their breakup and everybody was still friends. Everything seemed above board. I introduced him to my colleagues, my neighbours and my friends, everyone liked him. I was practically adopted into his family by his siblings. I was more careful than I have ever been with anyone, because I had been burnt before. Result: he cheated with his ex, while I looked after their son; I believe it went on for much longer than I “know”of, and that her family knew, including the grandma I visited every week. No amount of vetting could have prevented this. Yes, there were red flags in his behaviour, but I only see them with hindsight of the horrible things he has done. At the time, all I saw was someone who has suffered from recurring depression and had a tragic childhood.
      I don’t think there is any way I could have seen this coming.

        • He sure is. We weren’t married, we have no children together, he could have walked out at any time and been a decent man. I think cheating when you are de facto partners, not married, is in a way even worse because you could be out of a relationship you’re not happy with in less than a minute, so why the fuck don’t you? No excuse.
          Anyway, at least he has not been physically violent with me, and there are a lot of worse crazies I read about on CN!

      • I get that — we can all get chumped, no matter how careful we are. I just believe meeting someone and having sex with them within a few hours is riskier behavior than taking a little more time to get to know someone. Again — no guarantees. Obviously, there are many stories and many variations inside Chump Nation. It is not that you, or anyone else here should have seen it coming. I don’t have an expectation that someone will cheat on me, I just realize it can happen because it has happened. I do what I can to reduce the risk. I am not saying there is ANY safe way. I am saying that I expect there are many liars out in the world, and I tend not to believe in anything anyone says until I have gained some expectation of believability. For me this takes time. I don’t pretend to set other peoples standards — you have to choose to do whatever you are comfortable with, and you have to be prepared to accept the consequences of your decisions. I believe you got something different than what I meant, from your comments.

        • ‘ I don’t like living in a world where I assume I am being lied to”
          Portia, I think overall I got what you mean, but I’ve come to believe that there’s no amount of mitigation that can protect me anymore. So I really don’t like living in this kind of world, but here I am. I now assume that people are lying so for me, no dating on the horizon. I tried this winter and I was really not in the right mindset for it.
          As I’ve said to others on the forum, I would look at a friends with benefits thing or casual sex as a less risky option where I would hope my emotions would not be so involved. Except, I’ve never been into casual sex, never tried it.
          Since some of the chumps here are into it or have been, I wouldn’t mind a few tips on how to separate sex from a long term loving relationship.
          As for the physical risk of STDs, it seems to me it’s easier to protect myself against that than the emotional risks.

  • Oooh, the judgement is flying thick and fast- and i can’t see why, really, not a lot of waffle or bullshit in this letter and it sounds like genuine indignation. My answer to the ” he would have checked Facebook before” argument- some people, my ex included, have more than one Facebook page, depending on what variation of their name you use. And some are more honest than others- no, scratch that- some lie less.
    As a sideline- i remember being young and promiscuous very fondly. My only regret is that I picked the guy I stayed faithful to for twenty something years- I should have left him as a one night stand. It’s not something I have the time or energy for anymore, but cheers to you, PWP. (That acronym in fanfic stands for porn without plot, by the way)

      • Well, sometimes you get the backstory as to how they were exposed to a space pollen that meant they had to have sex immediately or die, and sometimes you just get the bit about sex in zero gravity. I like a bit of backstory, myself. Oh the angst! Oh the tentacles! Then the sexy bits. Don’t judge me.

  • PWP, this will be a very difficult conversation for you to have with the wife and I applaud you for wanting to tell her. You definitely are a principled man. I am sorry you were used by this cheater. Never mind his sexual orientation, his behaviour is all about entitlement and using his wife, kids, you and probably others too. Make sure you have a lot of evidence for the wife as she may refuse to believe you or even listen, and if his family really is homophobic, it will be very tough on you, you may be treated very unkindly. I hope that is not the case and she understands that you are doing this to help her. Send her here, there are many other chumps who have been through the same thing.
    As for you, once you’ve told her, stand aside and focus on your life and meeting genuine singles, he’s wasted enough of your time and you’ve done your duty. Nothing to understand there, just check the background of people you meet from now on.

  • Just want to say. I feel that I got unfairly judged yesterday. Now it’s messed up today’s post too.
    One thing I realised last night was actually how precious this site is to me as a safe place as a chump trying to learn from other chumps, posting my own experiences and trying to help others if I can. I debated for ages last night as to whether to respond or not. In the end I responded to the judgy post by posting more information. Then felt I had posted too much information and felt more vulnerable than I already did. Then I thought well I don’t really want that to happen again so maybe I’ll stay away from CL for a while but then I realised how much it is a safety net for me. If I can just touch base here most days I feel steadied and supported. That’s precious. Just speaking for myself I think it would be a shame if too many of these incidents occurred and people felt unable or unwilling to post. We are all chumps here trying to make our own ways through the shitstorm of cheating. I’m not one in real life who shies away from a robust exchange of views but here I’m vulnerable and raw and exploring some uncomfortable stuff. As we all are.
    Whether you believe today’s letter writer or not is slightly beside the point IMO. None of us know for sure. CL on balance of probabilities thinks genuine (and surely she has the most sensitive nose). If you disagree then yes say so but in such definite terms? why so vested in the opposite?
    Maybe it’s triggering for some. But can we all go back to being chumps who have each other’s backs ? It’s too special a safe place to ruin.
    ❤ to all.

    • Agree. Nothing is lost by assuming PWP is truthful and then responding to the issues raised. If he is lying? Well, we still learned and shared and processed. Continuously posting to prove our take on the situation is correct really adds no value and makes some feel attacked and unwelcome to add comments. That is the last thing I expect or want to see here.

      • Dixie and Cap, I agree completely here. We need to have each other’s back.

        I am a chump, and proud of it. For me that means I will assume the best of someone unless there is glaring evidence to the contrary. I want to live up to the best in myself, not down to the worst. That means that everyone in my life will be treated with kindness, respect and courtesy. Fixing my picker does not impact that. This is how I choose to live my life. I cannot tell others how to live theirs. The world does not have to conduct itself according to my expectations, and if I disagree, I can do it respectfully. There are a lot of ways to look at any situation and it is possible to state our viewpoint in a kind and respectful manner.

        Kudos to you, PWP. You are being a good guy. As a chump who was oblivious because I trusted cheater ex implicitly, I would have loved to have a heads up on his nefarious deeds.

        Capricorn, sending you hugs, Girlfriend. Here is one chump who has your back. You are precious just the way you are. You never have to justify anything with me. We come from a similar place, and are dealing with similar challenges.

        In a very real sense we are all dealing with the same shit from all the cheaters. It’s all about lies, abuse of power and selfishly using people. Frankly, it sucks.

        Can’t do much except thank everyone for their wonderful and varied input. Sending out a whole bunch of hugs to chump nation.

        • Hugs Cap, what you are doing with your STBX seems to be working for you and your kids. You have explained your motives, you are trying to keep the peace and civility which will ensure some financial stability. He is not behaving nastily now, and you are very clear about your boundaries. I hope it goes on working for you and your kids.

          • Capricorn – I love every post you write. You are a source of great strength for me.
            I’ve had a few misunderstandings over the tones of the written word and too many people don’t hear the expression or emotion in the spoken word. How we got going backward in time, from a telephone back to typing, is a mystery to me. Last time I was in business, we still used the phone.
            A place like this with so many posts is bound to be misread at anytime of the day. Depending on how you’re feeling, your attitude that day, whether the ex was just up your ass…we don’t know what anybody is going through.
            What we do have in common, of course is, the lying, cheating, stealing, gas lighting and more lying.

            We have each others’ backs.
            Good luck PWP, no matter what your initials mean.

            Teach your children well ~

    • Completely agree, Capricorn. And we can have disagreements that are stated TACTFULLY, and without being repeated multiple times (as if repetition will convince someone).

    • Hey, Capricorn —
      I agree, and let me apologize if anything I said here today was triggering to you or made you feel like you were entering a battle zone. I felt insulted and perhaps I responded too harshly.
      I don’t know what happened on yesterday’s post, but I want you to know that I have tremendous respect for your compassion, your wit and obvious intelligence. This *IS* a vulnerable time for most/all? of us, and I apologize if my own angry tone has caused you any discomfort.
      Hugs.

      • So, I just read yesterday’s exchange — Ouch! — I won’t stir things up here further, so I’ll just say that I stand by my ongoing assertion that I think you’re doing an amazing job. Someone said it yesterday that you’ve made more progress in four months than they (I) made in four years! The fact that you have to share a living space with STBX (can I say VSTBX, V for Very?? — Yay!!) makes you mightier than I had to be — I bow down to your mightiness. And as far as I’m concerned, you can share any old damn thing you want. You’re safe here. There will always be people who disagree, but, y’know, there are PUH-LENTY of us here who think you’re awesome and will support you any time you need it.

          • Yesterday’s thread (and this one, too) gave me the same reaction, lousvilleflower. The sanctimony and patronization by certain members set me off to a point where I did not trust myself to respond with any sort of tact.

            Capricorn, keep your voice alive here and know that there are many who have your back.

            PWP, please know that we here in CN definitely don’t shy away from using a “loving 2 X 4” when necessary to shake someone out of complacency when they need it for their own or someone else’s protection, but we have always drawn the line at simply being a dick for fuckery’s sake. I’m sorry you were not welcomed by 100% of the population here in the way Chump Nation likes to represent, but I assure you, there are plenty of people here who do NOT share the same vitriol and victim-blaming mentality that one or two members here have shown you. You are doing the right thing in informing the Idiot’s wife, and I’m sorry you found yourself duped by the Idiot as well.

  • I just want to say that the only thing one can expect from casual bar hookups is casual bar hookups. So don’t hookup with a stranger in a bar as a means to find your future wife or husband. But it’s fair enough to expect to meet a single promiscuous person from a casual bar hookup. If married/attached people go hookup in these places, they are there to cheat and lie, and really there isn’t that much one can do to protect oneself from liars. They set out to deceive others, they will lie about their status, they are predators. The only defense there is to give up on hookups completely, and have any prospects vetted by a professional matchmaker or something! That’s setting the bar too high, I guess.
    For the record, I’ve never been into hookups, but if some people want to do that and are honest, no problem.

  • Thank you Chump Lady and Chump Nation for the support. It’s really helping me process what’s happened.

    There are a few things I’d like to clarify. First, I don’t give a shit about the gender of his spouse. I would still be angry if he was married to another man. I’m angry because I was lied to, and because because of his lies, I unwittingly compromised one of my values: that infidelity is wrong. Yes, I have casual sex, but I’m single and not dishonest about it. To put it in Chump Lady’s words, I eat my cake, fully aware that doing so precludes me from continuing to have my cake. My anger is made worse because, if he really is gay, he’s using the closet to “get kibbles”, which is a total flip-off to all the people, like 16-year-old me, who are forced into the closet for their own safety. But at the end of the day, I don’t think it’s right to sleep around with married men.

    Second, I’m not jealous of the wife, nor am I angry the husband wouldn’t commit to me. Our relationship was casual and physical, and I never expected any sort of commitment.

    As to why I didn’t look for him online before this, well, I was an idiot. Or rather, I was naive. When he said he wasn’t married, I trusted him. When he said he was closeted, I assumed he had a good reason to be. And yes, I have learned my lesson for future reference.

    As for telling the wife, I’m planning on doing so in a few days. I need a bit more time to process what happened and collect myself, in case she reacts explosively, or if the husband from hell tries to contact me. But I absolutely will direct her here: chumplady.com is amazing!

    • PWP, you’re a chump so you assume the best in people. You are honest and you assume everyone else is unless proven otherwise. Classic chump.
      Unfortunately a lot of us have learnt now that this point of view can be very risky. And it seems some chumps are taking it too far by assuming nearly everyone is dishonest. It’s hard to find the right balance.
      Thanks for writing in, hope you keep reading, and good luck with telling the wife.

    • Thank you PWP, for your integrity and honesty. If I read you right and you are 16, your courage at being willing to tell the wife is even more laudatory.

    • Thank you for writing PWP. I really appreciate knowing there are honest people in the world who have excellent ethics and enjoy some fun sex with other single peoples. Hope I meet someone like you soon. And thank you for doing the right thing. Jedi Hugs!

      PS: if you need some help on how to tell the wife, I think some folks can help with that. Seems like CL has a post on it too. Definitely need evidence because this asshole will do everything he can to discredit you, that much I can pretty much guarantee.

      • Ditto — PWP, I think you show a lot of integrity to post your story here and try to help out someone else this guy is lying to (his wife).

    • I don’t think we all have to become online stalkers to have a bit of fun sex, PWP! You asked a (simple) question, and in this case, you were given a little information that made him seem relatively honest with you – I am still in the closet. Easy mistake to make. I think I would have trusted he was telling the truth. I guess then you assume that because you asked about his relationship status, you expect the truth. Why not? Because these people who lie, do so out of habit.

      My ex has gone through all of this with a fine tooth comb. He wasn’t a bad liar (until he was!) But he can see a pattern of ‘justified lies’ from his parental home. Telling partial truths, or lies by omission. It was what he learned as a child, and realises he carried that with him. He does not lie anymore, hasn’t since D-day. He loathes that this was where that thinking led him. I grew up in a home where my mother’s mantra was, ‘better a thief than a liar be’ – which is probably a bit of a shit mantra – I don’t like thieves much either, lol. She also drummed into me that if you are ever in a relationship – ANY relationship – I took this to include random hookups, friendships, etc – that if you have to hide it from anyone, you shouldn’t be in it. I remembered this as my ‘promiscuous’ (owning that word) friends laughed and told on themselves about random hookups, good and bad. It was honest. It was funny. It was real. My only takeaway from your situation, PWP, is that I guess if a guy says he’s in the closet, that maybe that is one of those situations, you shouldn’t ever have to hide. My Dad was/is (don’t get me started, so fucked up) in a relationship with a guy my age – for the last 15+ years, who thinks he is still in the closet. Yeah, right! Like no one knows, lol.

  • PYP
    Is a baby! A 16 year old kid being manipuated grown ass man. I know you said you were kicked out by your parents, but you agree changes the dynamics of your situation. Liquor, sex, more than just a power play. I would suggest sources outside of Chump Nation would be more appropriate.

  • Still not getting it PWP. You are 16 years old. You invited a man who could easily be twice your age back to your place for casual sex, many times, NOT expecting any commitment. Now you are pissed off he’s married? What’s your investment in this man’s personal life? What did YOU want him for, other than casual sex? I’m agreeing he’s a cheater, but why are you so sanctimonius about turning him in? Seems to me you were using him as much as he was using you. You’re a chump? Don’t think so.

    • I don’t mean to single you out, Tflan, but really have to ask anyone who wants to impugn PWP’s motives to stop. Now. Nothing further can be gained by endlessly repeating skepticism, and the risk is that you further victimize someone who has a principle of not sleeping with married people, and is pissed he was lied to, just like the rest of us..

      Anyone who wants to post supportive things, feel free. No more debates or judgments, please.

      • Thank you, Tempest. Honestly, the anti-sex judgment and fear mongering I’ve been reading on this thread is astounding. News flash! Lots of people enjoy NSA sex and manage to do so without being murdered by Mr. Goodbar. Sheesh!

  • Again, to clarify, I’m not 16. When I talked about “16-year-old me”, I was referring to myself eight years ago, when I got kicked out by my parents.

    • Thanks for hanging in there with us, PWP, even though you owe us no explanations whatsoever, especially after some of the comments here. And I’m sorry to hear that you were kicked out by your parents when you were a teenager, there are no words 🙁

  • Tflan, don’t you read? He said he is “24 y.o.” — he’s hardly claiming statutory rape at this time, just being lied to and wondering if he should tell the man’s wife.

    (Tempest, I hope you don’t fire me out of the airlock.)

  • PWP, you have such maturity! I am so impressed with you, such a young man, less than half my age and so brave. I guess since you were confronted with such rejection so young, you were very compassionate when that man told you he was afraid to come out of the closet. Beware, that’s what predators do, they get to know your history, how you have been hurt, and they use it to take advantage of you. Best of luck for the future.

  • Hey yo, resident gay guy here. First of all, did you meet this guy on Grindr? At LEAST go with Scruff to see if people can string together more than two sentences. Grindr is really bottom of the barrel.

    Anywho, 100% tell the wife. But MAKE SURE the correspondence is not intercepted. It would be best if you could find this wife’s phone number, either at work or somewhere else, and speak with her directly. That way you know, for certain, you can convey what you want directly to her. This scumbag’s sob story about his family being homophobic is probably nonsense and he just wants permission to do whatever he wants (entitlement), possibly also avoiding any “discomfort” in openly identifying as LGBTQ. Nope nope nope! Now more than ever is the time to be open and brave. Speak truth to everything. Tell the wife. Do the right thing. She will be immensely grateful to you down the line, even if she isn’t immediately (which I imagine she likely will be).

  • Straight single lady here. Same thing just happened to me, only I wasted a couple of years of my life in a long-distance relationship with one of these narc cheaters.

    Turns out he *wasn’t* divorced and totally in love with me – he was just getting supply and kibbles. Dude was the biggest pathological liar, hypocrite, manipulator, emotional abuser I have ever met. I had no idea what a narcissist was until this happened to me and did some research and this dude checked nearly all the boxes – tick, tick, tick.

    I asked the same questions…why not just hook up with another married cheater instead of going for someone single looking for a real relationship? In trying to find answers, I was only able to conclude that you cannot make sense of these pathological people – they do not share the same moral compass (if they even possess one at all).

    These two lines right here in chumplady’s response are spot on in my experience:

    “Cheaters want the un-level playing field. They want someone to invest in them wholly, and they don’t wish to return the favor, but will lie to extract all the perks and privileges of ‘commitment.’

    He’s a Cluster B nut cluster. He likes deceit. That’s his real high, not promiscuity — it’s duping. He likes the power of getting over on people and using them. You were of use. She’s of use.”

    Tell the wife for sure. I sent the wife (once I learned she existed) as much as I could upon her request. These cretins are evil and they take what they want without consent and regardless of the cost in human capital.

  • I just found her number, and I think I’ll be ready to make the call on Monday.

    I would call tomorrow, but he was always “not available” on Sundays and I don’t want him there when I call her.

  • PWP,

    Thanks for sharing your story here. Some comments:

    1) You were played. You trusted someone who abused that trust. That is on them, not on you. All you can do now is to do the right thing.

    2) “How should I go about telling the wife?” Kudos to you for not asking IF you should tell the wife, but HOW should you tell the wife. Again, your inclination is spot on here. Follow the advice above. Do it just with her. Do it in a safe space for her. She might freak out, she might break down, so be respectful of her needs. She might hate you for telling her, and that’s a sad fact of the situation. Be apologetic. Let her know that if you were in her position, you’d want to know what was going on no matter how much it hurt you to hear it. Let her know that you’re done with her husband forever, and if you had known he was married, you never would have started with him. Still, all of that might not be enough.

    3) “What the fuck is his problem? Why didn’t he …” All of that isn’t important. He’s demonstrated that he’s not a person you want in your life. So gently excise him from your circle. You’ll have baggage to deal with, and worries, but the sooner you let him stop being in your thoughts, the sooner you can move on. Your brain space, the things you think about, are valuable. Don’t let him steal any more of them. His issues aren’t your problem anymore, let them go. Easier to say than do, but that’s what you need to do.

    4) “How do I stop giving a shit?” Chump Lady has this exactly right. Don’t stop. Realize that there are bad people out there. Don’t become one. Don’t associate with them. But don’t let this one experience define your life. The anger will fade over time. Let it go gently, don’t nurture and build it up. But don’t forget it, either. And when you find yourself in a new relationship, with a partner who feels the same way about cheaters, you can both enjoy each other’s commitment to fidelity and scoff together at the sleaze balls who don’t feel that way. A good relationship does a ton of good for healing people who are reeling from bad ones. (Of course, you can’t just dive in to another relationship hoping it will heal you, that’s a recipe for disaster. You have to start the hard work yourself, and then let someone else’s help finish the job.)

    Kudos, and good luck.

    aeronaut

  • I just made the call. Thank you, Traffic_Spiral, for suggesting that I write a script beforehand. I’m a lot better at writing than I am at speaking off the top of my head.

    I told her my name and gave her a general summary of what happened. I explained that I had no interest in fucking married men, and that her husband had lied to me. I didn’t get into the minutia then and there, but told her that she could call or text me if she needed more details to help her heal. I told her about chumplady.com, and offered to email her proof of the affair (I had enough foresight to secretly audio-record my confrontation with Cheater-Face). I also tried to preemptively neutralize the “you’re being homophobic” mindfuck: I’m gay, and I hate this guy too.

    Fortunately, she didn’t lash out. She seemed to be in shock, and by the end she was obviously holding back tears.

    Hopefully, she has enough sense to leave this creep, but at least I know I’ve done my due.

    • Oh, and she wasn’t homophobic in the slightest during the call. So either she was too shocked to go full-WBC on my ass, or the husband was lying when he said his family was homophobic. I have a sneaky suspicion that it’s the latter.

    • I applaud you, PWP. That cannot have been an easy call to make, the wife’s life will not be easy from here on out, and yet courage and virtue prevailed. Thank you, from all of us who wish someone would have told us the truth about our marriages.

  • I am FIERCELY proud of you, PWP 🙂

    There should be more people, gay, straight and everyone in between, who are willing to place abuse in the light of day to provide the unvarnished truth to people who are being abused – even if it is abuse they don’t know about yet. It is a very tough phone call to make, and a situation in which there is no clear “win” for you. You could have easily walked away from it. “Not my business, I did nothing wrong, I don’t want to get further involved.” Only compassion and integrity can drive you to give this wife the information she needs to make informed decisions about her life.

    You are a good egg.

    • A super good egg! Thanks PWP. For sharing your story, for telling her with compassion and gentleness, for understanding, and for updating us. Whatever her choices now, you have freed her – or at least offered to – because she knows the truth.

      Just a word to take care of you – does the guy know where you live, etc? I just mean I hope he doesn’t make life difficult for you (without trying to frighten you unduly.)

      PS, I don’t believe for a second he meant his wife was homophobic – even if she is, and it sounds like she had bigger fish to fry during that phone call – the thing is she might be frightened of her husband being gay, but not the LGBTQIA ‘community’ at large! Maybe he meant his FOO – not his wife? The reality is, it is often the closeted person themselves that hasn’t come to terms with fluid or marginalised sexualites, and use the ‘homophobic family and friends’ trope to avoid opening that door!

      • Hey, Horsesrcumin–I see we were both on another website today (the one with the now-dead unicorn, with the wife who has given up on wreckonciliation after 3 years). You agreed with my post under my moniker for that site (Still Reeling), lol. Small world, eh?

        • Gidday Tempest. Oh, I would have never connected the dots! Yes, I have been watching that one for a while, I think she was never gonna be able to wreckoncile anyway. She was too pissed off, and there wasn’t a lot of love apparent. (Surprise, surprise, who really can, ever?) I don’t think for a second he was ever a unicorn, either – just a bit of duct tape and a sprayed on rainbow. He never showed the kind of remorse and complete transparency required.

          When she first mentioned her thoughts about the new interest, a few months back, I told her that it was common, but to leave him if she wanted to pursue the other. I had no idea it was a new concept to her. I am always a bit stunned about the lack of knowledge about sexual fluidity, etc. Very small world indeed xxx.

          • Horsesrcumin–Yes, her site was one I stumbled on to before CL, and was blown away by her raw emotion, so articulately expressed. When I read her post 11 months post-d-day for her, where she was still on anti-anxiety and anti-depressants, and had had her first week of more good days than bad. In 11 months. I thought, “oh, hell no.” It was the first stone in my no-reconciliation stance; finding CL was the second. Thus, I am very grateful to that blogger for showing me what wreckonciliation looked like from the inside, and I wanted no part of it.

            You’re right–she didn’t have a unicorn, just a jackass with a paper towel roll on his forehead. I’m glad she took the step toward freedom.

            • But she hasn’t taken any steps, Tempest, she is still with him. Playing games now. Revenge games, and games with her own (and other people’s) emotions. It’s simple really, it’s over, leave. (Yeah, I know, it is never simple …)

              She and I had (pretty silly) words some years ago, about what I cannot recall completely. I know there was something about Anne Brecht involved, My Husband’s Affair was the Best Thing…. She got angry pretty quickly is all I remember, and that she was adamant she had made the right choice in staying. Anger about something that was reasonably innocuous in my book. I was a little taken aback, she ripped me a new one on my blog, too, around that time. That was when I realised she was using anger at everyone else as her shield to protect her marriage. No one was welcome then if they suggested anything else. It has been interesting watching things take their course, sad, of course. But not one to take advice. I like her, but worry for her choices.

              • I know; about a year ago several of us set out to post chumplady.com links on as many reconciliation sites as we could, but I knew I needed to do it in a hidden way because the blogger on that site had not always been gracious about the “dump the jerk” message in the past. I thanked SW for helping me make my decision, and then had some pretext for mentioning CL.

                Aside from updates about 2 threads I had subscribed to, plus the latest “I’m done” blog, I don’t visit that site any more. It’s too depressing to hear people 3 and more years out admit that they are still broken, and angry, and their spouses are entrenched in genuine imitation naugahyde remorse. I just want to kidnap them and say, “there is a better way….come with me….”

                That blogger now risks becoming the toxicity she’s hoping to escape from. I hope she can free herself soon. It’s so sad.

        • You guys are there, too? LOL – small world, indeed. I have never commented there, I just lurk and read, but it is nice to know there are fellow members of CN who check in on the wife’s story once in a while 🙂

      • Sorry, I should qualify that comment. When Dad was having sex with men while he was married to my mother, the way he came out was after one of them threatened blackmail. We lived in a relatively isolated, rural location, and this guy turned up on our doorstep one night. He was offered a bed for the night. We kids thought it was pretty weird, not because our parents were not hospitable people, but this was a pretty weird guy. Turned up at 10 o’clock, having driven up our 3km long no exit, gravel road that no one else lived up. He was wearing what my brother described as a “Herb Tarlek” suit, and had no overnight bag. It turned out that he was about to out my father, and he had stalked him to find out where he lived (“Herb” lived 6 hours away from us) and had turned up to show Dad he was serious about pay up or I will blow up you life. Dad told Mum the next day, apparently, and the rest is history. I wish he had done it your way, PWP, and not in the spirit of greed and apparent glee at seeing the family suffer. This was the early 80s, so the stalking was pretty well done in a pre-internet era, as Dad had never used a real name, or credit card, etc.

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