Stay in Touch

Check out CL's Book

Dear Chump Lady, Why does he hate me?

Hi Chump Lady,

My ex cheated with Schmoopie, up-ed and left what I thought was the perfect life, home, and family, to move three hours away from me and my three amazing young girls to move in with a twice-divorced home-wrecking whore and her two kids.

I’ve been fighting him now in court and through attorneys for three years. While my heart is full of joy and love today, I keep asking myself — why does he hate me so much? Why does he feel the need to destroy me and my character? Why does he ALWAYS do the wrong thing regarding the kids? Why the venom towards my parents, my nephews, his own godson, my entire family who did nothing but love him? He’s made it his mission in life to make me out to be the bad guy.

I supported his ass through thick and thin. I still do. The legal system is so fucked up, that he’s only made to pay for 25% of the kids. That doesn’t even begin to cover the cost of even one of my children. I’ve come out on the other side and am stronger then ever. I’ve gotten myself to the point where I KNOW I can conquer anything I put my mind to. I don’t need him for anything!

I still have that burning question though — Why does he hate me? What the fuck did I do, aside from being a loyal, loving, caring wife and mother who has always supported his sorry ass? I’ve read that cheaters have to do that in order to sleep at night, but WTF! Can you help me solve this mystery?

Jen

Dear Jen,

I don’t know, Jen. It’s one of the Great Fuckwit Mysteries. I imagine there is a sphinx somewhere and if we could only answer the Cheater Riddle, the sphinx won’t strangle and devour us. Which creature speaks with one voice, but becomes four-footed and two-footed and three-footed? (Answer: “WE’RE JUST FRIENDS!”)

Haters hate. This is the chump cue to be introspective and examine what you did to drive him to loathe you. My guess is consequences. If you’ve been in court for three years, apparently you did not take his “abandon the family” thing lightly. Being any sort of obstacle to fuckwit happiness makes you Public Enemy Number One. How could you, Jen? What, did you ask for more child support or something?

Forgive my cynicism. I just accept hate as a given when divorcing a fuckwit. I know we’re all supposed to aspire to conscious uncoupling (not to be confused with unconscious coupling, which is more of a Bill Cosby thing). Don’t think ill of the other parent, wish them well, share Thanksgiving, go on Carnival cruises together… There is this weird societal benchmark that to succeed at divorce you must part friends. So you probably came to this with the wrong set of expectations — that you would part, divvy up the stuff, and be all adult about it. Heck, you probably thought that since he WANTED this divorce and you GAVE him a divorce, he’d be civil. What’s his beef? He’s got a fabulous new life with Schmoopie. Why is he hating on his former nephew?

A couple theories on why he hates you… (I’m indulging in untangling the skein of fuckupedness. Not recommended practice.)

1. ) Consequences. It’s one thing to ask for a divorce. It’s another thing entirely to get it. Lawyers send these horrible legal bills. You lose your stuff. If the cheater can’t have cake (All the kibbles! No consequences!), then they’d prefer an uncontested divorce in which you absolve them from all responsibility. Like children.

You didn’t do that. Schmoopie sparkles are gonna cost him and that’s SO UNFAIR!

2.) Triangles are so fun. You serve a useful purpose as Obstacle. Anything wrong in Schmoopieville, it’s all your fault. What with your incessant, irrational demands that he pay for his children. But it’s okay, your centrality as the Evil Ex keeps the Other Woman off balance trying to please him. (See how AWESOME I am compared to your ex? I NEVER ask you for money! My children live on air! Watch me contort myself into tiny shapes of obsequiousness!)  If you just removed your villainy and left them to it, well… they’d have each other. Ugh.

3.) It’s What The Disordered Do. I recently had the pleasure of interviewing Bill Eddy (lawyer, mediator over at the High Conflict Institute) for the D.C. Bar and he said the telltale sign you’re dealing with a disordered person, is blameshifting.

Eddy says people with personality disorders stand out in three ways. First, “they really lack self-awareness of their behavior and its impact on others.” Second, says Eddy, disordered people don’t change their behavior, no matter how self-defeating, even when it’s in their own best interest to do so. Third, they are obsessed with blaming others.

“[High conflict people] are really stuck in a narrow range of dysfunctional behavior that they repeat and repeat. And you can’t change them for the better. Just forget about it!”

The biggest giveaway that you’re dealing with a personality disorder, says Eddy, is that they “blame others for all of their own problems. Since they don’t reflect on their own behavior, they have incredible energy for scrutinizing everyone else’s behavior.”

Sound familiar?

I know it’s absolutely gobsmacking that someone can cheat on you, lie to you, blame you for their abuse, and still have the delusional chutzpah to think THEY are the aggrieved party. But they do.

My advice here at CL is trust that they suck. Is it baffling that they suck? Is it unjust that they suck? Yes. But the most important thing about the suck is getting AWAY from the suck.

You’re free of him. Who cares if he hates you? Let him hate. Wave your fingers at him and smile. Abide the court order. Hold him accountable. Don’t give him any kibbles of centrality, and build your new life as sane parent to your three girls — three awesome girls he’s missing out on, the loser.

We’ll close out with Ms. Jill Scott, “Hate On Me, Hater.” Turn up the volume, Jen. And good luck.

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Love, love, love this Chump Lady! I wonder the same thing daily. Why does he and his whole family hate me?

    Quite simply, all their dirty secrets got aired out in court and their image of the “perfect” family was shattered.

    Not my problem, if you didn’t want people to know, you shouldn’t have done it.

    They are ALL personality disordered and they suck.

    • I blew the whistle on Pervy Pants’ abnormal family. Posers….all of them! Flag waving….church going middle class folks….with trim bushes. But…..their dirty little secrets are enough to keep Sigmund Freud busy for a decade. When I say “dirty secrets”- I mean get the Clorox bleach out dirty!

  • You HAVE to be terrible to make their narrative make sense.

    My nowdeadcheater’s entire life narrative made perfect sense if only you accept the premise that I was a terrible wife who forced him into marriage, refused to have the 7 kids he wanted, defied him and denied him (things like being a professional mountain climber or ditching his profession for a gig driving dumptruck) but OW was going to do whatever he needed to be HAPPY.

    Upon scrutiny of his narrative, I asked him when I defied him (I lived in a city he chose, drove a car he chose and worshipped in a church he chose) and he answered “you use bleach in the laundry”…yes, I had 3 little kids with muddy/poopy socks and such…I did do that. I hope you are adequately horrified.

    Skein of fuckedupness

    • What a shitty wife you were!! Me too… I bought mature cheddar cheese not mild – I’m a bitch like that.

      Mine left an owned (with mortgage) farm and teenage child, for a twice divorced, three kids by two fathers, female and now lives in social housing without his name on the rent book; and just about to lose his police officer job for fraud and embezzlement plus has debt collectors chasing him as he purchased too many pressies for Slaggy-Anne and her kids!!! I hope she buys mild cheddar.

      • I became a shitty wife, mother and housekeeper, I didn’t park correctly, I pulled up too close to the house in the garage.
        I didn’t clean out his closet.
        I never loved him
        I didn’t make spaghetti often enough…,
        I wasn’t June Cleaver
        to name a few of my faults

        • X bought a harmonica, I walked in while he was practicing and started laughing, yes, I actually laughed..
          No wonder he found someone different. someone who appreciated a 50 year old man who never played the harmonica before, practicing.

          • I cursed, X (understandably) was appalled, I should be ashamed of myself, using such language in the presence of someone of such high standards.
            He knew it,
            I’m white trash, “trailer trash”,
            I said “shit,” actual sentence: “I’m tired of your shit.”

            • I called Asshat an ‘Asshole!’… poor sausage remembers this clearly, probably because it is the only time in over 30 years that I called him anything like this, though he doesn’t seem to recall the background of why I called him an ‘Asshole’, just that I did. Reason for calling him an asshole (like I need one)? I suggested that he begin individual counselling, with the hopes that he might then bring in our teenage boys to help repair his relationship with them (that is a very long story that I won’t distract with right now). He said he was ‘too busy’ – though he found plenty of time for his hobby, as well as spend time with his 24 year younger ho-worker. We are now approaching the four year mark of our youngest son not talking to Asshat, and Asshat wants me to fix this for him. Our children are young adults. Not my job – so he hates me. Go away Asshole!

              • I’d forgotten your post reminded me, I at one time called X an asshole, I can’t recall exactly why at the moment, I know I wouldn’t have called him an asshole without a reason.
                Naturally X was appalled, and wouldn’t forget it.
                I understand how your felt with your boys and their father.
                I was constantly coming up with suggestions on things he and our son could do together, gathering information on ocean fishing boats, camping, rocket launching, building models, anything to bring them closer. X claimed to like to fish, camp, build models but never did. Our son is intelligent and was fairly good at baseball but X wasn’t interested in anything our son was interested in. X one time told me to leave it alone, that he and our son didn’t have anything in common and he accepted that. X never made an effort to find out what our sons interests were. I knew it hurt my son, he would ask me to talk his father into doing things with him. X refused, the few times he did camp in the back yard with our son, X looked miserable. He’s interaction with our son would be to ridicule him.. I took him to a therapist because it bothered me so much and I could tell it wasn’t good to hear the things X thought was funny. The therapist take to X telling him it wasn’t good to hear so much ridicule and negativist from a Dad to a son, boys are sensitive to what their fathers say to them.., (common sense). Not surprising, the counseling session didn’t stop X’s ridicule directed towards our son. I would tell X how lucky he was to have a son who enjoyed doing things with him. X didn’t care. X only had time for himself, running and going to the gym and I found out later hiking with his AP. I would ask X to take us hiking with him and he would say we couldn’t keep up with him. (he couldn’t slow down or keep it a shorter hike for his family). When X left he bribed our son with attention and gifts to move in with him saying they could be college room mates. X eventually had our son emancipated so our son could be on his own, alone in the apartment while X stayed with his AP or went to work. I can’t believe the judge allowed him to do this, our son wasn’t mature enough and was left alone without any rules which not surprisingly had an adverse affect. Grades plummeted, friendships changed, lost interest in hobbies. X never did anything with him just left our son to roam around on his own. The friends he had drifted away and he met people that were older and shady. X didn’t care. I hate him for what he’s done to our son. My son is too young to realize how it’s hurt his development. He’s doing okay but not living up to the potential he once had. I don’t understand the family court judges.. This might sound crazy but this judge is female, and I could tell she was taken with X and his charm. Her face would light up when she talked to him and they’d banter back and forth, laughing.., X can be quite charming and funny, she fell for it and X ran with it. I hope my son realizes someday just what an ass his father is.. our son still looks for his attention.. I assumed everyone wants only the best for their children, a better life than they’ve had and to look our for them.. I thought that’s the type of person I married and had a child with but it wasn’t. One of my biggest regrets is not leaving with my son when he was younger and I first noticed how disinterested X was with being a parent.

        • Hah what it is with the danged pasta? I didn’t make his favorite lasagna and baked ziti enough. I was too clean, too perfect. I was smarter than him and that hurt his feelings…his words not mine. Upon reflection after the divorce, I am smarter than him.
          He left 4 years ago for the gas station attendant down the street. Guess what, she’s still a gas station attendant who doesn’t know how to cook. The first year before our divorce, when I was giving the finger to no contact, I may or may not have sent him a picture every other month of the lasagna and baked ziti I had made and the neighbors holding forks full up to their mouth eating it. ?

          • I know no contact is what we all strive for … but damn, that is seriously awesome!!! I love that you did that.

          • I’m guilty of cooking the pasta too long…

            Good for you Sugar Plum sending him photos of everyone enjoying your Ziti and Lasagna. Sounds like you have great neighbors.
            That must have hurt his poor, little, sensitive, feelings.
            Gas station attendant could bring home snacks from the vending machine for supper, Cheetos are almost like Lasagna, right?

            • Lol, yes my neighbors are awesome! They even waved at the camera. Yep Cheetos have cheese, lasagna has cheese, close enough!

          • Sugar Plum, As the self described No Contact evangelist even I find this story hilarious.

            Brit, sometimes a kids awesome in action!

            • I’m the NC queen now, but at that time I gave as good as I got from the cheating POS. He tried to break me with his cruel words. He didn’t know who he was F’ing with when I refused to lay down and cry. It was my way of telling him to go F himself. I didn’t need him. I cried, but he never knew that. Bullies are all alike.

          • Ouch pasta! All of a sudden he tells me he dislikes angel hair that was like 1o years ago, soon after he moved out. Took him back. – I know, dumb on my part -. Fast forward 10 years, all of a sudden he doesn’t like cod. Mhmm. Whatever, their hate is simply based on the fact that they will never ever assume any responsibility for their actions. Thus they need someone to place the blame – and that is you and I my friend. Incomprehensible to any sane person. But hey, whoever said these sorry excuses for a human being are sane?

        • I broke spaghetti in thirds, not halves. Sometimes the cream cheese container fell out of the refrigerator when he opened it. I sucked.

          • I bought the wrong apples. That he’d never revised and apple preferences ever did not matter. I was the worst. ???

              • Too twisted to believe, but we know they do this. The ex came in one day from having fun and saw me nursing our daughter. He told me I was doing it all wrong. And he would know this how? They love feeling superior.

              • Boiling water wrong, and engaging in breastfeeding wrong, are now my two favorite cheater complaints of all time!!! They’re so fucked up!

              • My XH ridiculed me for the ‘folding’ motion I used as I added blueberries to muffin batter. I explained it was the proper baking technique and he claimed I was making it up. Did he cook/bake? No need to answer that 😉

              • Apparently I didn’t know how to strike a match correctly. Still continued to pick me dance for years after that one. Ugh.

          • The stupid as shit thing is if they REALLY hated it that much then why not just say it? When you love your spouse as much as many chumps (and possibly other regular people) do they would try literally anything asked of them to make home life and marriage happier. I know I would have. But instead idiot cheater went and hated on me to the whoremat. Because telling a third party whore all your problems definitely fixes them with your wife. (I’m EXTRA bitter this morning)

          • I loaded the dishwasher wrong. And didn’t own a matching bikini. And didn’t clear the kids toys far enough away from our heaters so clearly I didnt’ care about the kids’ safety (apparently sparks coming out of living room heaters have a 5-foot range). And I had warts so clearly didn’t care about my health (correction: I had a mosquito bite but his views were so deranged he refused to believe that).

          • I thought I was the worst because he hated how I loaded/unloaded the dishwasher and that I bought whole wheat bread! How is it that I didn’t come up with a list of his faults – oh yeah, he didn’t have any…

            • Hey, I loaded the dishwasher incorrectly too! I also left drawers open a centimeter or two instead of making sure they were closed completely and never met a veggie or fruit I could chop the right way. I really sucked.

              • I had almost forgotten one of my more serious infractions. X traveled out of town so I was in the habit of always closing and locking the doors to the outside when I’d come inside, including the back patio door. It became a habit of mine for my safety.
                Without thinking I would lock the doors while he was out side and he’d either have to unlock the door or knock for me to open the door for him to enter.
                It would infuriate him, he would be livid and sometimes not speak to me for the entire evening as my punishment…

                If I left a cup board door slightly ajar. He’d call me into the kitchen to show me how far I had left the cup board door open. He’d then demonstrate how if he had been walking into the kitchen and not noticed, the door might have hit him in the forehead.
                Sometimes he’d just do the demo while glaring at me.
                Sadly, I was never fortunate enough to see him smack his head into the cupboard door.

              • one day i was peeeling a pumkin and he was all annoyed and commenting how wrongly i did it and finally said in rage: “WE think you do things slowly and stupidly”.

                to this day i dont know who he meant by “we”, is he a royalty that needs to be addressed in plural?

                anyway he was always so critical of me my dear SIL (she has always stood up for me) would call him the “micromanager”

            • Brit, thank you for the mental picture of my ex getting smacked by the cupboard door over and over again!

            • I am sorry Tempest, reading further I see it is Finding Bliss, er, I guess her cheater, that the Breast Feeding wrong (??) question goes to.

              I am sure he would have an answer as most clearly he has breastfed before!

              We Mothers stand to be corrected.

              When the baby would cry shortly after a feeding my cheater always said, ” Give her a little more”
              I replied ” You give her a little more”!
              ?

              • Love the reply to your cheater, Peacekeeper!

                Breastfeeding wrong, that’s nuts!!!

                I got the 3rd degree for potty training our kids. They were ready to learn, and had to be out of diapers for their daycare. They had a few accidents on his watch (he was too busy texting on his iPhone to see their signals), so I was told I’d done irreversible damage to them by starting so soon. And he’d slap them in diapers whenever he had them, confusing the heck out of the poor kids. His Schmoopie reassured him I’d done very wrong. For the record, my kids ROCKED the training, it just wasn’t perfect overnight.

                I say: whoever is stuck with all the diaper changes gets to choose when to potty train!

              • if mine would have been at birth of our daughter i am sure he would have said i was birthing wrong!!

          • You utter wench….only heretics break spaghetti! ?

            Mr Fab sports a beard and mustache. Serving soup, I would sometimes give him a (gasp! shock! horror!) actual SOUP SPOON. This is would result in A Brisk Standing Up, a Marching To The Kitchen, and the Bringing back of the Correct Spoon (a teaspoon, lest his upper lip hair come in contact with food).

            I left all the kitchen stuff behind. Except the Wrong Spoon, as Kiddo and I now call it. It lives in our Apocalypse Bag, which we have due to living in a seismic area.

            happy summer, Lady T!

        • I kept some of the notes my son’s father left for me:

          “A steak is not a dinner – a steak is a lack of forethought and planning”
          “Ice-Skating is not a sport- Baseball is a sport” Of course, I went ice-skating with my son, his dad signed him up for baseball

          He told me the gf before me made potatoes for dinner every night and he never wanted to see a potato again. Of course , 3 months in I heard ” Why don’t YOU ever make potatoes?

          I made coffee every morning. Every morning, for years, he would pour a cup, make a face and spit it into the sink and dump his cup out. EVERY MORNING And I was foolish enough to keep making an extra cup for him!

          If you think the Hate or antics to drive a wedge between you and anything he learns that you enjoy will ever end, in my case it didn’t. I was lucky to have the silent treatment for over 20 years but he just made his presence felt after 23 years when I began living closer to my son than he does. They just hate to lose any of their possessions at any time, EVEN IF THEY DON’T WANT THEM. Sorry. They’re truly twisted creatures.

          • Chump Advocate Vickie – what a dramatic little bitch he is! Actually spitting out coffee every morning?? Then why keep going back for more, insane drama-queen?? I feel like I’d bitch-slap that twit if I could. Seriously.

            I hope your life is a billion times more peaceful and drama-free now that you’re rid of that douchebag. He can go f-off with his gf, potatoes, and swill coffee. Ass-clown.

            I also hope every cup of coffee you have is bliss. You’ve earned it and deserve it, chick. (((Hugs!)))

              • I had been thinking about some other potentially useful additives. Even if one limited oneself to the spice cabinet, there might have been some good ones–powdered jalepeno, ground mustard seed?

              • Oh yeah!!
                If they really hated these things,if this really made them miserable, at least we’d have the consolation to think the bastards are miserable all the time. But they just pretend to hate the things we do to make US miserable…

          • So he could taste the arsenic in the coffee, eh? Just kidding… but I hope I made you laugh. What a joyful life you must have now while someone else takes on the abuse… because you know he hasn’t changed.

            • Thanks. It was pretty peaceful until i made the error of trying to live closer in proximity to my now adult son than he did. Suddenly after 20 years, his need to divide and conque resurfaced with a vengence.
              The good thing was that he was caught cheating on wife number 2 when my son was in college so I didn’t have to be the one to burst my son’s illusions about what a great guy his dad was.

              I never really caught him cheating, probably bc i was too busy raising my child and we didn’t have cell phones or social media barely internet — but i definitely knew he he was “different’ when i left. I didn’t have the language for personality disordered at that time.

              The weird part is i think he will always probably be the sparklier parent bc I was the one that did the heavy lifting of parenting which is not always as pretty as the face of a Disneyland dad even in adulthood. So now, I am working through some stuff i thought was years in the rear view mirror.

              I believe in time it will work itself out and end with my son having a more realistic view of both of his parents as human beings. But the most important part for me to remember is ‘they do not change’. Trust that he sucks ….. forever.

          • Damn, this reminds me that every single morning I would get reamed for spraying some hairspray on my hair. He would go around coughing and closing doors and turning on fans saying that “those chemicals are terrible to breathe.” Like I lathered in it or something, but really it was just a few spritzes. I was also told that I shouldn’t wear make-up anymore with the only reason being that it took way too long in the morning. Thing was that I never bothered him with my timeframe in the morning. That was all up to me. I could choose to get up early enough to do my make-up and I always did.

            Good grief! I was so paranoid by the time I decided to divorce I didn’t know which way was up.

          • Every time I would make a steak or some sort of beef the a-hole would say it smelled “musky” and not eat it. I finally got fed up, threw the food in the trash. I went into the kitchen only to find Musky Man eating the food out of the garbage can.
            Also, I found a list Crazypants wrote about me. These were the reasons I was a bad wife:
            1. I hated fluorescent lights
            2. I read too many books
            3. I parked the car wrong
            4. I refused to get a Brazilian wax
            I later saw a picture of the OW on his phone. Of course it was of her crotch. Clearly, the Brazilian wax edict did not apply to her, as it looked like she was sporting a mini Chewbacca between her legs.

          • The garden was unkempt . He was a plant physiology PhD dropout who kept promising to build a super veggie garden, but did nothing except spray roundup where he was one day going to build it. Never happened in 8 years there. Didn’t want me to make one because he was going to.
            He didn’t have any friends because he was ashamed of the state of our garden. He had no friends when I met him.
            I was no fun at Christmas: he stole the kids chocolates on year from under the Christmas tree. He stole all the chocolates I’d bought to take to his family’s Christmas another year. Yep, I was no fun at Christmas.
            I made him live like a pig: he came home morning tea, lunch and dinner to a hottie warming up his LayZboy, a warm fire and food served to him in his chair. I did all the housework and laundry for him and his kids. He never lifted a finger at home. Cheated with the whore with 20 cats, no bathroom, no oven, just a hotplate, no washing machine, who never cleaned and only showered and did her laundry once a week at her grandmother’s house. Cheated with her while I was stuck here with his son.
            I hurt his feelings when during our first miscarriage (there were 5 more to come), I collected the miscarriage tissue and wanted to bury it at the roots of the tree he had bought me as a present. I hurt his feelings because I hadn’t discussed it with him before having the impulse to collect the tissue instead of letting it go down the toilet.
            “You will never hurt me like this again” he said in MC, and blamed the cheating on this. Of course, 7 months earlier when he demanded a menage a trois with his ex he claimed that I was asexual, not a peep about hurting his feelings.
            Trust him to pick the most painful way to hurt and blame me.

            They hate us because they know what they are doing is hateful. Projection.

            • Kiwi, I just read your first paragraph and burst out laughing, I’m just now catching my breath. So funny, yet sad at the same time. I don’t know why but this just made me laugh so hard, my stomach hurts from laughing..

              • I think what made me laugh after only reading the first paragraph was it sounds so familiar. X was an expert on everything but did nothing. He bragged about how he was the most educated, he had a Masters degree in Recreation and Physical Education, he never once coached any of the athletic teams our son played on even though he rarely went to work. While my son was in kindergarten and elementary school the teacher asked if he would come in once a week for a half hour to do calisthenics with the children. One classroom, 20 kids for a half hour. He said no, this is after he bragged to the teacher and anyone who would listen that he was a camp counselor for one summer.
                The funniest thing or shall I say most embarrassing, is at the end of third grade the third grade classrooms had a picnic and softball game at the end of the year. The Softball game consisted of Dads against the kids who were in the third grade, these kids are approx. eight years old. X would get up to bat and hit the ball out of the field, then when it was his turn to be in the outfield, he’d run and catch the ball and aggressively get these kids out. Meanwhile the other dads, pretended to not to be able to catch the ball, or purposely miss getting the kids out, by accidentally over throwing or whatever. Not X he had to win. As I was standing there a group of teachers walked up to me and asked me to tell my husband to think about who he was playing and to take notice of how the other Dads were letting the kids think they didn’t know how to play. The teachers were upset at how aggressive X was playing and to win. I went to tell X what they said about his playing. X became indignant and said he didn’t care what they thought, he wanted to show his son how well he could play. If that were his real motivation why didn’t he coach his sons teams, or join an adult league or volunteer to play someplace. How about helping the teachers when asked instead of sitting on his ass at home all day. One of many embarrassing moments living with X. I cringe when I think about it.

            • Kiwi, Im so sorry about what he said to you during your pregnancy loss…you did the right thing.

              • Unicornnomore, what makes no sense is that when I did this, he seemed to think it was a good idea, and that we did the same with the subsequent miscarriages because he encouraged me to do it. It was never a problem until 7 months into MC post DDay, I had done everything humanely possible to be the perfect pick me dancer so he had to think of something to be the victim. To me that’s the really evil part. If he had really felt that way when it happened he would have said it or shown it, but he agreed and approved. The tree he bought me is a beautiful NZ native hybrid which was going to be OUR family tree forever, so it was ideal and he said so himself. The evil is to then turn this into an attack and justification for betrayal. He has poisoned everything I thought we had.
                It was particularly vicious because I was especially hurt that he cheated with his ex while I was looking after their son and I pointed out how hurtful that was to do to someone who’s tried so hard to have a child without success. It’s an extra special dose of viciousness. The whore knew about all the miscarriages. She came to see me in hospital when I had surgery to try and improve my chances. Now I think she came to gloat while I was laid up defenseless in a bed.
                Both of them deserve the viciousness Oscar.

              • Kiwichump.
                I am so sorry for the sad loss of each of your pregnancies.
                The closure you choose for each one was very beautiful.
                I hope your strength of character brings peace to your heart.
                The way others have treated you is so wrong, so unkind.
                Kiwichump, you stand above them in CN’s eyes.
                Xxx

            • So much resonates . One thing is for sure, I will never ever go to the extent of pleasing someone and disregarding what my needs are. Never.

        • I was too old. (Although we were both born the same week…same year). Can’t figure out why I wasn’t too old when he married me?????

      • Mild cheddar. My ex once threw a tantrum because I bought havarti (my favorite) ONE TIME instead of provolone (his favorite) like usual. What is it with cheese?

        • I’m clearly a chump because I’d be appreciative of any cheese you bought me. Cheese is my first and truest love. Except American. If you bought me American I’d definitely have to leave you. Sorry, not sorry. ??

          • I, too, am in love with cheese. Honey was too. I made cheese into an art-form at most mealtimes. In fact, I cooked amazing meals, cleaned the house, set appointments, did all the banking, raised the kids, and generally just let the man show up to his own life with everything taken care of. He acted inept at things with a big smile so I’d take that task on too until I literally was buried in tasks for both of us.

            So when he left, I didn’t hear anything like these stories about how much I sucked for not fulfilling some maniacal desire he had to straighten the kitchen towels or to make perfect stacks out of the canned goods. I got ‘you did nothing wrong.’ I got ‘you were a great wife.’

            I can’t decide which sucks more. If I ‘did it all wrong’ in his warped mind, he’d at least have created the illusion of a reason to abandon his wife and 2 babies for a stripper 9 states away. But when you’re told you’ve done everything right? That’s its own kind of mind-effery. Because, yay my reward for awesome wify-ness is total abandonment and lifelong trauma?! Yay me!

        • Cheese, pasta, laundry, and dishwasher loading. These are Big Recurring Themes here at Chump Nation…

          I mean, we all have our preferences and control issues, but to frame worthiness around any of these is (in hindsight) hilariously tragic.

          • If I had someone shop for my groceries, then put them away and make my supper, pastas, what ever kind of cheese (except American, right Shelby?) whatever, broken noodles, under or over cooked, then load the dishwasher and do my laundry, I’d be forever grateful and wouldn’t be able to thank them enough.

            They are so unappreciative.

            • Oy! These are both making me laugh out loud and wince a little at what similar mindfuckery we’ve all had to face.

              I’d head to the grocery store and ask “what can I get for you?” He’d say “I’m fine.” So I’d shop, come home, and he’d rifle through the bags and start whining about how I didn’t get him any snacks or special treats. I’d reply “I asked, you said you didn’t want anything”. He’d get upset that I didn’t know him well enough to GUESS what he wanted.

              MC asked STBX why he was unhappy with the marriage, and he brought up this example. Plus “she doesn’t vacuum very often” and other drivel. She looked him straight in the eye and said “Those are just surface irritations. What are the REAL reasons?” Crickets.

              • Mine always complained I didn’t have enough variety in salad dressings, so I bought a whole bunch of small bottles of various kinds so he could have his pick. Then he got pissed that I was trying to make a joke out of how ridiculous he was being. LOL

              • The old “well, I shouldn’t have to TELL you what I want . . .” mindfuck. An oldie but a goodie.

              • You don’t remember??? how long have we been married..?
                walk away, sulking.

                This, when he asked me what his favorite pie is, I said apple, look of hurt and confusion on his face.., no, pecan.
                I’m sure he had told me it was apple. He most likely did tell me it was apple.
                An excuse to sulk and feel sorry for himself while letting me know how incompetent I am.

            • Totally, I always say I love everything anyone cooks for me, just because I didn’t have to cook it.

            • My new husband does all the grocery shopping, cooking and laundry…sometimes he over buys terribly, but I think to myself “am I going to complain?” hell no Im not going to complain !

            • Me too! At this point just cook for me, clean house for me, take care of my clothes, do the grocery shopping, pay the bills and I will be forever yours.

            • TOTALLY agree! We did all our shopping together. Because we were a “modern, equal” couple. I wasn’t suffering through that shit alone! But if he were the shopper/chef/laundress (which he was and I told him he could leave my laundry for me!) I wouldn’t complain. And if it felt hard done by I would either make a request for the pasta/cheese/dishwasher configurations that pleased me and if it didn’t materialize DO. IT. MYSELF! It’s really not hard. It just shows how pathetic they are. It makes me angry but I want to laugh at the same time because of just HOW PATHETIC it really is! Like, do you tell people that know you are divorced that shit?! Or are you embarrassed just thinking about telling your boss or your mother or a complete and utter stranger “My wife sucked! She bought the wrong cheese once and she never broke the spaghetti into the correct fractions and let the tub of cream cheese fall out of the fridge too much and so I had to go whore fucking. You can see she deserved that right?!”
              ???????????

              • Ha, the Twat didn’t like the way I loaded the dishwasher either. And I keep a mop and bucket in the kitchen so I could sweep and wash it down after dinner. THAT wasn’t allowed. He would throw it into the garden and rant for ages. I remember he once went on a rant because he was “tired of eating the same old staples” all the time. You know, rice, noodles, potatoes etc. So I told him to name an alternative I would fucking fly to America to get it for him. That shut his loud gob up. I am a good cook and very innovative as I love to experiment. Enjoy your KFC with schmoopie Asshole,

          • I was told by fuckface ” don’t put all that smelly stuff in the toilet, I like to smell my own shit”? Seriously can’t make this up.

    • HA! Mine said, “You don’t hang up my shirts” as the reason he wanted a divorce. Can’t make this stuff up!

      • Mine said he couldn’t POSSIBLY LIVE with someone as RUDE as me. {After 33 years.}
        >> guilty… 😀 – Especially when being compared to the “woman of high caliber” the OW was.

        • Mine said he had an affair because “You wanted to sell MY house”. We had a 5K/month mortgage and he was losing his job, and I suggested we sell OUR house and purchase something more modest. What a tool. He has now been married and divorced at least 2 more times since I divorced his stupid ass.

        • That’s funny, as rude as you, it took 33 years to come to realize how rude you are?

          I was accused of being a pathological liar by a pathological liar after 20 plus years.
          X was seriously concerned for my mental health, he diagnosed me as bipolar for questioning a receipt for porn while staying in a hotel in Reno, which he denied even when I had the hotel on the phone confirming it was his porn in his room. Nothing suspicious there, just me being bipolar.

          • Yeah, I was bi-polar as well. I didn’t hang up pictures???
            Gee whiz, if I could have had a partner equal to me I would’ve been the luckiest girl ever.
            I mean, aside from hanging up a picture, that is.???

            • Asswipe never hung pictures except his car crap or awards he spent thousands of dollars on mounting his business shit and bitched at me if i bought a dollar store frame. I hung family pictures his mine and ours! Him never! But hed be damned if i took them with me!! Now he proudly displays those pictures like trophies of his good deeds. Asshole. Best line i heard from him….i didnt know what he wanted even before he did. Whore juice did cause shes in sync with him and i wasnt. Asshole!!!

        • She couldn’t be too high caliber if she was fucking another woman’s husband. Just saying.

        • Yeah, I wasn’t friendly enough when he called home on his trips with schmoopie coworker. I needed to be more cheerful about it, I guess.

      • When he made endless complaints, I used to have magical moments when his arguments went from “possibly reasonable” way into “absurd” and in the absurdity, I was reassured that it all had nothing to do with me.

        Shirts…yes. Cheater was in the military and wore uniforms. During one era, however, he needed to wear civilian clothes. He had a very specific routine with his clothes and instructed me to never touch or involve myself with the clothes he set aside for the dry cleaners. I laundered the remainder. During our 2 MC sessions, he told the MC that “at this very moment there is a bag of dry cleaning in my closet she has not taken to the cleaners”. Wow, I sucked

        • That’s what probably ended my marriage too. Schoompie coworker would pick up my husband’s dry cleaning and deliver it at our house on her way home after work. Once my MIL was there and she acted like I was being ridiculous to question why Schmoopie was so eager to help my husband with his laundry. I was always getting unnecessarily jealous about stuff like that in his family’s eyes.

    • “You HAVE to be terrible to make their narrative make sense.”

      That’s it. Perfectly in a nutshell. And since they MUST believe their own bullshit, it’s a whirlwind of crazy. I’m seeing the “I hate you – it’s your fault” dynamic in my FOO right now, so ChumpLady isn’t just for marriage chumps, this stuff applies to all kinds of chumpy relationships. I had several professionals tell me that my older sister has “untreated mental health issues”, but her rage, blame, insults, and expectations of perfection were so normal to me – hell, I married a guy just like her! And now, her behavior has hurt people, over and over, and SHE is perfect, and her shitty choices – and now consequences – are MY fault.

      Consequences suck. And when folks can’t look in a mirror and own that, they blame us chumps. And we dance and dance, with our futile “I can change and fix and love others into loving me!!!” But when we drop over from exhaustion, finally realizing that they are NEVER going to change because it’s never their fault and they simply don’t want to…then those consequences start piling up, and Chumpy takes the blame. Until we are DONE. And finally realize it’s not ours to take, and it never was.

      ChumpLady, you have helped me more than you can imagine. I pray I’m raising my two kids NOT to make these mistakes, and that they are seeing their mommy fight to be less chumpy and more mighty every day. Hugs to everyone here.

      • No Dancing, first I have to say your Mister Dog icon is perfect! One of my favorite children’s books. Its message is on point for chumps.

        Second, your buying the wrong trash can reminded me of mine telling me I was always entertaining and he didn’t like that.

        It was news to me. He would stroke his ego with family, friends and colleagues by showing them his “perfect life” without having to lift a finger. I was a professional chef and event planner so he only needed to show up and bask in the compliments.

        I planned, invited, shopped, prepped, cleaned, cooked, hostessed, cleaned up and even e-mailed photos and videos to attendees (good little chump). For him to then say that was actually one of the reasons for wanting to leave floored me.

        They are so disordered!

        Now I cook and entertain to my heart’s content. I love the people in my life, cooking and sharing authentic conversation around the table. The only difference is Mr. I’m Never Happy Pants ? isn’t there with his unhappiness, judgment and lies.

        Life is good being cheater free.

          • Crispin’s Crispian- one of my absolute favorite characters. Seeing this photo reminds me of my grandfather- he was a wonderful, honorable man.

            I went off and got a master’s degree, leaving him “at home with nothing”. Improving myself got me dumped. Which, ironically, furthered my self-improvement…

  • I got option 3 – loads of good books on divorcing people with BPD or NPD (or just the traits) and they describe the need to “blame” the innocent party to help deal with their own personality issues. Anyone narcissistic will blame as it can’t possibly be themselves and it feels oh so much better to push all the blame onto the other party.

    My lawyers really struggled with this in my divorce and I really struggled with it because I was conditioned to it after years of subtle and not so subtle abuse in which everything was my fault. Narcissists have a view of themselves (they’re awesome and entitled to everything that’s owed to them) and you pointing out in court papers that they’re assholes and should really pay their shares will enrage their hurt little ego.

    But now…. Who cares what they think. They’ve shown themselves to be who they really are and, once the divorce is over, let them get on with their own shitty lives and disordered thinking.

    • I’m perfectly okay with X hating me at this point, because really, why would I want someone that fucked up to like me!?

      What I struggle with is how he hates our kids.

      Every (in)action, like promising his old car to the new driver and then telling him it’s “not running today,” or blaming me for being poor as the reason he can’t help his now sober son get back on his feet – while sitting on a million dollar inheritance and buying a third home to fix up, to insipid details like making them pay for their own Happy Meal when he shows up to visit with them. He also employs the silent treatment when they call him out on his bullshit. His behavior tells them, “It’s all about me. You are not important to me. Oh, and I lie.”

      While we at Chump Nation know we’re all better off without such a disordered fuckwit, it’s hard to get to meh as he continues torture our children with the ole bait and switch tactics.

      For that reason alone, I hate him right back. But the difference between his hatred toward me and mine toward him is that I keep it to myself. He continues to bad mouth me to my kids with snide remarks and outright lies. Lucky for me though, my kids are telling him to fuck off when he tries now. Hence the silent treatment.

        • The
          eHave you ever tried to walk away from one of these fuckwits-as an Adult Child? You think it’s bad being married, at least you have some legal recourse: We have exactly NONE. And do you think they will just leave us in peace when we walk away? OHHELLNO. Not likely, although some have other toys to play with-but like a horror show, they eventually turn up over and over again on a Perimiter Probe.

          Having one of these for a parent is a shit show of epic proportions. They denigrate, scream, terrorize, abuse, neglect, destroy and otherwise “usher” every last person out of their lives eventually. By the end of their lives they leave a trail of wreck and ruin in their wake that is stunning in it’s chronicity and severity. They foster unhealthy Trauma Bonds with their appendages-we are not seen as human beings in our own right no matter how old we become. The most vulnerable, voiceless, unprotected victims of Cluster B Personality Disordered/High Conflict Personality parents are their kids. And when we finally walk away/NC (no contact) we set up a relentless war between us and the CB: “She’s just like her Faatthheeerrrrr!” “She’s brilliant but emotionally immature!” And so forth. Welcome to the only cohort group that grows “down” instead of “up:” When you’re a child you’re treated as an adult and when you re an adult you’re treated as a child.

          They have a mindset of a career criminal: The only mitigating factor on their behavior is *what they think they can get away with.* I feel qualified to make that observation for a buncha reasons as do other Adult Children and I’m not gonna get into this here. Mine endeavored for decades with cruel coercion to use me as a Tool in her insane Scorched Earth War against my Dad-who finally walked away at 63 a few months post a massive MI from which he was not expected to recover and a Near Death Experience. Effectively, she was demanding I surrender my most deeply held morals, values and ethics, that which makes us “us” so she could use me as a Tool. Think about how dehumanizing that is and feels-for a minute or more: Now think of it as a lifetime experience. She didn’t give a shit about me outside of my utility to her. I’ve seen the results of this behavior, of surrendering one’s very conscience under extreme coercion and it’s horrible: People either exist in a state of anomie at best or they become suicidal at worst. We have no right to demand anyone sacrifice their very soul, their personhood for anyone or anything else-unless your agenda is to destroy them.

          Please, please know this: These people do NOT have kids for the the joy and inherent challenges of becoming parents. They love the picture of themselves as “Madonna and Child” or “Andy of Mayberry” but they hate the reality-and us as well. We desperately need one.sane.parent. Please be that parent who does not put us in a vice and squeeze us until we dissimulate. Don’t smack talk the other parent, ever. Don’t pump us for information, drag us into court, use us as therapists, guilt us, terrify us, and other wise misuse us. The other parent is doing plenty of that and the pressure is horrible. Remember this is a Marathon, not a Sprint.

          A child or Adult Child does not have to be an installment of “Criminal Minds: Special Victims Unit” to be abused and neglected. Bruises fade. Broken bones mend. Burns scar over: It is the psychological/emotional abuse that leaves the longest demands. There are vestiges of having a Cluster B Personality Disordered/High Conflict Person as a parent that will remain with us until our physical deaths: That’s not speculation or dramatic license. It’s a Statement of Fact. Our decision to eventually walk away from these kinds of parents is decades in coming and indescribably anguishing; it is not made lightly or without deep pain. The cost to us is incalculable.

          We need a safe place to land that is free from pressure or coercion of any kind. We’re not idiots: I knew my mommy was different from other mommies by the time I was 3. She hated being a wife, she hated being a mother, she hated being a “home maker” (what a joke, we had “Help”), she hated her life. And every day in every way she made sure that not only did we know that but we-or somehow I-was responsible for her being such a terrifying, nasty, unpredictable, abusive/neglectful “Mugger” who swung wildly between Engulfing and Ignoring. I know I am not in any way unique nor is my experience from other Adult Children of CBs/High Conflict Personality parents.

          When you expropriate a childhood, adolescence, adulthood etc. from your offspring for *any* reason, you have stolen that which can never be restored. CBs engage in this behavior consistently. They are Muggers of the most odious sort. Their behavior may not be ordinarily criminal in the legal sense (although often it is) but in the realm of our minds, experiences, lives they are the shameless perpetrators of Child Abuse/Neglect whose effects impact our lives globally-will remain with us until our last breath.

          We need you to believe in us. We need you to give us the gift of empathy, time and factual reality testing when *we* bring up our other parent and their behavior. We need you to always remember we are the unwitting victims/result of adult choices over which we bear the longest burden. We need you to be a parent damnit, with all the privileges and responsibilities inherent in being one. Above all, we need your love and compassion.

          Because my Dad was all of these he is (although long dead) my Hero. Please be your own child’s Hero. Remember, none of this costs a cent but requires a resolute decision to consistently model the behavior that hopefully allow will allow us, when the time comes to choose a life partner with greater discrimination that is the antithesis of your choice: There is no greater Legacy we can leave our children or their children-and into successive generations we will not live to see.

          The Hate ends with us.

          • So well said, TundraWoman. I went NC on my narc Cluster B mother about the same time I divorced my cheating narc cluster B ex. Other cluster B’s in the FOO are shocked and outraged that I no longer will put up with their abuse and demands. So, what did they do?–why, reach out and embrace and love on the poor, misunderstood ex. You know, the one they hated and had nothing good to say about when I was married to him for almost 30 years. But now they are allies in their united front and narrative that it’s all my fault. They cannot stand the loss of control and hate that they can’t use you any longer. Really, they don’t know I’m thrilled they are there to feed on each other and can narrate themselves into fantasy all they want. I’m so glad to be free of all their disorder. My cluster B mother is deceased now, and with NC with all the other narcs, my life is improving all the time. But the stolen childhood? I hear you. But I’m grateful for a grandkid–my excuse to do all the fun stuff I was never allowed to do because I was expected to be a little adult and meet all her needs. Here’s to enjoying life whatever our age.

            • You are mighty FB! You deserve to play, sip and savor from the beautiful cup of life. Cheers to being cheater and narc free!

            • Finding Bliss, That is so classic: “The enemy of my enemy” strategy. I seriously side eye these alliances because they are so unpredictably predictable-you’re in plenty of company, FWIW. Interestingly, people who have been labeled or label themselves “anxious,” “depressed” etc. and medicated for such (or self-medicated, often with little discernible difference) through a variety of circumstances find themselves in your position-and guess what? All those psychiatric dxs. they accepted because it *must* be them dissipate. Sometimes the real “problem” is they’re surrounded by assholes-who knew, huh? ;–)

              It’s really a challenge for someone who is so beat up and beat down to walk away from the cabal, but as you’re experiencing the freedom is indescribable: Freedom is never as precious to those who have had the experience as it is to those who have spent their lives in a prison of invisible bars.

              No, we can’t get our lost/missing decades back, but we can do our damnedest to ensure the next generations from our’s forward are able to experience all that we missed and miss all we experienced. If we can accomplish this, we will have transcended our Legacy. IMO, there can not be more of a profound gift than this to those we will never live long enough to know: Our “reach” will exceed beyond our own stolen hope, dreams and lives.

          • Tundra Woman, what a powerful post! I have a BPD mother (I suspect as she would !never! see a psych, ya know, cuz she’s smarter than they are.) My relationship with her has been the very picture of dysfunctional. You described the experience exactly. And your final line, “The Hate ends with us” is exactly what I decided when I had my son. I have my bad days, as any parent does, but he never doubts that I truly love him and I have his back. He will never know the humiliation that I have endured at the hands of someone that is supposed to be your staunchest, most unconditional supporter.

            However, then there is the childhood conditioning that made it seem normal to marry his dad, Cheater #1. He has a whole litany of diagnoses that he uses as an excuse for poor behavior, poor choices and an all around shitty life. I actually had two different psychologists, plus a family friend all basically make the same observance about our marriage: “You are the glue holding him together and he finds that threatening.” The last fourteen years since our separation and divorce has proven that several times over.

            But I am the sane parent and make sure that Jr. knows he always has a safe haven, an advocate and, most of all, an unconditionally loving parent.

            Thanks for posting and sharing your insight.

            • Yes, and one of the most common Legacies is the reality that no one ever modeled Boundaries for us nor allowed us our most Fundamental Right, the Right to Self Defense so we become chum in the water to every Predator out there. When an adult requires another adult to function as “glue” to hold them together the pieces never fit initially, IMO and “Humpty Dumpty” is the childhood fairytale of one of life’s ugliest realities. We mistake Pity for Love, Passion for Compassion, Mutuality with “Mine, All Mine,” a Relationship (any significant relationship) as a Herculean task of Feeding the Empty Hole where a heart should be-but isn’t. We are born hard wired to bond with our Primary Caretakers and will do everything we possibly can to attempt to secure their love and approval. By the time we’re 3 we recognize without the care and protection of our parents, we would perish. That’s a pretty hefty club to hold over a child’s head. Still, we try desperately to please them regardless of the “cost” to us. Of course all parents and all adults have bad days and very trying periods in their lives. But we do our damnedest to ensure these adult problems remain with the “groan ups,” not the Littles. This is not a matter of a few “mistakes” were made or not being “perfect” at all: It takes concerted effort over decades to destroy that child’s hope their parent(s) will ever love them. And if your parent(s) can’t love you, who possibly can?

              The fancy shrink speak for our unconscious attempts to remediate these circumstances is “Recapitulation of the Primary Trauma.” It’s our best effort to master what’s happened to us and to effect a different, more desirable outcome. We pick partners unaware for the most part we are choosing the same circumstances of our original Trauma all over again. It feels “familiar” because hypercriticism, disproportionate responses, predictable unpredictability etc. is “home.” As a result, we unwittingly collude with our abusers in perpetuating our own histories.

              To be sure it’s not inevitable that we choose poorly, but it’s common. It seems to me ultimately it’s not about what we did “wrong” but what we do to address that challenge. That model, that life and people will throw us curve balls-at times through no fault of our own-in fact realistically prepares our kids to recognize mistakes are made-and that doesn’t make us or them unloveable or fatally flawed as a result.

              That’s a very valuable Life Lesson we’re all going to need to use at some-if not many-points. I’m sure you’ve read Christine Lawson’s “Understanding the Borderline Mother” and every time I read the phrase “timid forest creature” I think of Lawson’s Waif typology, yk?! Yep, CBs are highly unlikely to ever get into meaningful therapy but all the people/roadkill victims around them IMO are single handedly keeping the self-help industry, psychiatrists and psychologists in royalties, co-pays and vacation residences ;–)

          • Thanks for this post, Tundra Woman. It will be of great help and insight for me to understand and support my daughter-in-law, who grew up with a Cluster B mother. Unfortunately for her, she does not even have one sane parent; her mother was not married to her father and has never told her who he is. When my DIL was 3, her mother married another Cluster B, who proceeded to abuse my DIL physically, sexually, and psychologically until her mother finally separated from him when DIL was in high school. The stepfather tried to maintain control over her until recent years, but he lives far away thank goodness. The mother, however, lives close by and has continued her Cluster B ways with her daughter whenever possible.

            It seems obvious and simple for us who care about her to say, “Go NC with your mother!” She has not been able to do that yet. I am hoping that someday, with the help of a good therapist and the love of my son, she will find the fortitude to do what she knows she has to do. She’s only 26. I so feel for her.

            My son’s father is a Cluster B, but not as malignant as his wife’s. My son was lucky enough to have one sane parent—me (although sometimes I think being married to a Cluster B for 30 years made me crazy). I’m hoping that now I’m in DIL’s life, she’ll let me be a sane parent for her as well.

          • Welcome to the only cohort group that grows “down” instead of “up:” When you’re a child you’re treated as an adult and when you re an adult you’re treated as a child.

            That is so true!

          • Thank you Tundra Woman, I went through this with my father and my husband went through this with his mother.

            It’s soul-sucking and by my early 20s I was suicidal.

            Luckily for me, I dropped my father and virtually disappeared for years.

            When I went home later in life they seemed so strange to me that they held no hold over my life despite many many many attempts to do so.

            If they can’t control you, then you are worthless to them.

            I call it “being off the reserve.” Once you are out of their sphere of total control they try to either claw you back in, and failing that, they act as though you never existed. Or that you are the worst thing to have ever existed.

      • My ex does the same thing. He withholds the vehicle we bought for the kids to drive (that is in his name). We bought our oldest daughter a new car after he moved out, with the agreement our second child would be driving the Jeep she had previously drove. They are welcome to drive it when they are with him, but as soon as its time to come back to mom’s house, it suddenly needs to go to the shop, he needs it to haul things, ( can’t use his precious Audi A6 for that) Funny since he’s out of town, but for some reason needed to park that vehicle at the airport instead of his Audi.

        It’s a power and control thing – which is a ploy of fuckwits. He thinks he is punishing me (by showing me who has the power) but really he is punishing our kids. Our oldest is going off to college and she’s said, “I’m not stupid, I know who has the money and I’m going to kiss his ass for as long as I have to to make my life better.” I don’t know if I blame her, this isn’t her fight and it’s not her job to disadvantage herself in the name of standing up for me. It’s sad really… it’s hard to teach upholding values over disadvantaging yourself. She knows not accepting his version of serial cheater justification will result in her detriment (the cutting off of daddy money). Sadly, I’m sure this is the precise mindset that will perpetuate the cycle of “do what benefits you over what is morally right.” I’ve done what I can to instill values that I perceive to be virtuous, the rest is up to her.

        My middle child is the one that suffers the most because she has a strong sense of right and wrong, and she will not appease him by submitting to his power and control, and thus she doesn’t get the benefit of cars, gifts, linked bank accounts and praise for folding to his “Your mom is terrible person and that’s why I cheated” narrative.

        I wish it didn’t have to be this way, and his hate for me wasn’t demonstrated by using our children as pawns in his power and control dialog.

        Maybe CL needs to write a book for fuckwits entitled “how to get to MEH, when you are a fuckwit” ?

    • Yup…Narcissists are pros at laying the blame and guilt on other people. “Who ? Me? I didn’t do anything wrong. You’re the one with all the problems.” Their side of the street is pristine.

  • Basically, I figured my ex hated me because I stopped being a chump. I stopped obeying him. I stopped tiptoeing round his every need. And horror of horrors, I told people what he’d done and I fought him in court.
    He loathed me when I found strength to fight. He thought he’d absolutely destroy me.
    It was hard but I finally figured out that there would never be an answer to the “why”questions I asked that would ever make me go “Ohhh, now I get it!” His thinking would NEVER make sense to me. At that point I could just trust that he sucked and move on.
    Good luck Jen.

    • I made the huge mistake of trying (for YEARS) to untangle the “why” of the night he declared his intent to divorce. I know, massive chump mistake. He claimed certain things to be true, but if you accepted his truths then his behaviors made no sense. And yet there I was with my endless “why?”.

      Nearly 10 years after that puzzling night, 3 years after he died, I learned that he was a serial adulterer. THAT was the “why”. So CL wisdom of “trust that he sucks” really WAS the answer. Throughout all 10 yrs of time, I simple wasn’t willing to see that he really was THAT bad. And yet he was.

      • unicorn, I also felt the night my husband gave the ILBINILY speech his reasons for wanting to leave our marriage made no sense. It was making me crazy trying to figure out what was going on. Although horrible, it was also a relief to read in black and white what was going on in his life to make him act that way. I believe the withholding of truth and blaming us for the demise of our marriages is the hardest part to get past. I still sometimes wish I knew the extent of his affairs over the years. It might explain a lot. But I don’t think I’ll ever really know.

        • He had been jerk for a long time when I got the speech…I had tried every possible idea to connect with him and I was praying to God that H would find within him the capacity to be kind and in interest in a relationship…he did, just not with me…

          but almost all of his actions the night of the speech could be explained by CL’s theory of cake….but I had nary the first inkling that he was a cheater.

          If he had said “I have decide that I no longer want to be married, you tried but Im done and leaving” I would have been said and pretzelled, but instead, he avoided ALL accountability and said “I want a divorce, I dont love you and I realize now that I never did, you have been a terrible wife, left me tell you where you failed _____(2-3 hour laundry list that eventually contradicted itself). He assured me there was noone else, this was between us.

          I pickme danced like a lunatic. He didnt leave so I thought he was reconsidering…we seemed to get closer then when he could sense it, he distanced himself like crazy, but he didnt move out.

          None of it made sense…if I were SO horrible he had to divorce me then why was he still here and if I were good enough to stay with, why rip me in half with his horrible speech?

          Cake…I think he was planning to leave for Susan and he felt guilt having this full blown affair so the speech…he had unfinished business as he retired so he stayed and ate cake. I dont know where his “leaving for Susan fantasy mixed in, but it was all SO MEAN.

          So much later I learned he was a serial cheater…that is why it was so easy to hide his affair, his behavior hadnt really changed, it just went into this particular affair.

          He inflicted wave after wave of massive pain on me simply out of self protection and refusal to accept consequences…he was willing to inflict ANY amount of pain in me to protect himself. any. and he lied and hid his betrayals. Years later, looking back, I care little of the monkeysex, but the pain he planned and chose to inflict on me that april day…that left me so sick all I could do was vomit…I will never forget that pain…and he did it to save his own ass and affair partner. I thought so much better of him, I thought him brave…in the end, he was the worst coward I knew.

          • “he was willing to inflict ANY amount of pain in me to protect himself.”

            Yes, this is the hardest part for me to forgive. He then told the kids that Schmoopie Coworker had nothing to do with it because our divorce had been coming a long time. I had wave after wave of panic attack for weeks every time I remembered him saying that. I kept wondering what in the hell was wrong with me that I didn’t know? I always thought my husband had integrity, it was real shock after 36 years to realize he didn’t. He was just great at faking it.

          • no, I misspoke slightly…I have forgotten the magnitude of some of the pain from that time…it did finally dissipate into that part of my brain that forgets intense pain because your brain was never formed to be able to recall that sort of stimulus.

        • It took me exactly four excruciatingly painful weeks to figure out the why. That and 1200 bucks for a PI. The why was his poet/yoga teacher/scientist/activist (acc. to her Facebook) coworker. Simple. Nothing to do with me as a person, nothing at all.

            • Forgot to mention: Has a final judgment against her for not paying the rent on her yoga studio, has a balloon mortgage due in 2 years, didn’t pay her property taxes.

    • Justine I think you’re prob on the right track. You stopped being a doormat and a chump and he couldn’t stand it. He couldn’t have his cake and eat it too. Good for you though

      • And when we refuse to stay friends with them, it destroys their impression management script. That’s when mine started hating me–not after I divorced him or took half his retirement, but after I refused to speak to him or lie about his serial cheating. Then the waves of his hatred washed over multiple areas of my life.

        • Something very similar happened with my most recent (and last!) narc. So waves of hatred washed out, and many circles of ‘friends’ still expect me to show up for social things that are also open to the narc.

          This provided an excellent and immediate opportunity to prove my mighty and simply say ‘no’ to events and people who are comfortable having casual/social relationships with my former abuser.

          So many are just simply baffled by my decision though I’m sure none of them would ever choose to socialize with their exes.

          Learning to have better relations is often hard and painful – but so worth it

          • I’ve been in a quandary wondering how to handle my youngest child asking for me to get together with his dad for family events now that grandchildren are in the mix. I just can’t picture me happily hanging out at my ex’s resort like everything is fine and we’re good friends. It’s hard for my son to understand why we don’t communicate anymore since we were married for 30+ years.

            • Lyn, I struggled with the same issue with my adult children, who couldn’t understand why I couldn’t have “family” holiday dinners with them and X and even accused me of being immature about it. I received some sage advice from CN in the forums and the statement that seems to have gotten through to them without airing details they’ve made clear they have no interest in hearing is, “The issues that led to our divorce were very painful for me and I am not able to be friends with Dad.” Short, sweet, and to the point–I was prepared to answer their questions if they asked more about what those issues were, but it was clear they didn’t want to know (as far as I am aware, they know nothing about his cheating, which he has always denied despite the mountains of evidence I compiled). It felt good to lay down that boundary in a very clear way, without explanation, justification, or apology–it was painful, therefore we can’t be friends, therefore no dinners together, end of story.

              • Thanks Other Kat, I’m glad to know how you handled it. My kids do know about his EA probably PA with his coworker, but now seem to have moved passed that. My youngest, especially, seems to want us all to be together like we were when he was young. He was the most blindsided by our breakup and didn’t have any inkling about my ex and his affairs. My oldest son told me he’d suspected as early as a preteen that his dad was having an affair, so he seems to understand that it’s very painful for me. I’m determined not to do anything that causes myself more pain where my ex is concerned. Too many years of that already.

          • I’ve dropped all those “friends,” they are no longer my friends, they’re X’s friends.
            Not playing the on the fence BS. I have zero tolerance to Switzerland friends.
            When X left I didn’t want to impose on anyone and didn’t want to make anyone feel uncomfortable making them chose between us. As time progressed I noticed a distinct pattern of them calling or coming over to report to me what X was doing. I noticed a
            change in their alliance leaning towards X then found out they were spending more and more time with Chump and keeping secrets from me and reporting to X. Later when it came to our court hearings those that were supposed to be witnesses for me bailed.
            Then I find out they’re supporting X’s decision to emancipate our son. When confronted they decide any such thing.. All blatant lies. I started thinking, either you’re for the one who is honest and has nothing to hide or you’re going to side with the cheater. No excuses, well, he was just looking for something different, he wanted someone he had more in common with. 20 years of marriage and all the years I supported his career while sacrificing my career, we had a child together among many other trials that don’t need to mentioned here today. These people have a lot of nerve to make excuses for X and then say things like, well Brit, you’re bitter, or talking like that, I can see why he’s leaving you. A huge FUCK YOU, to all of them. I had a few run up to me to say hello and chat. I looked right passed them, as if they didn’t exist. I don’t think they’d like what I’d have to say to them. Sad, in some ways, these are people I would talk to almost on a daily basis, shared memories of our kids growing up together, lots of laughs, not anymore.

  • STBX heavily vacillates between love-bombing and pure hatred. Near the marital implosion, it was pure hatred (calling him out on his shit — didn’t realize how dangerous this could be with a narc). Once the implosion turned to an explosion and we very clearly — no blurry lines — separated, he started love-bombing.

    But as the legal aspects become more of a reality to STBX, I strongly suspect the pure hatred will again take over.

    It feels almost schizophrenic to be on the receiving end of such irrational treatment, so I understand the letter-writer’s concerns. Besides, it is so outrageously unjust to be vilified for being a decent human, a devoted and loving spouse and partner.

    One massive shit-sandwich I’ve had to acknowledge and then swallow is that there is no justice with a narc because justice relies so much on objective assessment and rational conclusions. Objectivity and rationality are like kryptonite to a narc, and (therefore), so is justice.

    I’m recently been trying to re-wire my brain so that I can see that the hatred of a narc is (in its own screwed up way) a compliment. I know there is logic in this thought, but after more than two decades of this shit, my brain needs a tune-up.

    • JessMom,
      I feel this way too. My STBX is all over the place, sometimes within the same hour. Sometimes within the same text.

      After he left but before I knew about OW, he stood in our kitchen and jumped from my being such a good mom, to we have nothing of value for him to take because I am a tightwad, to I was too good for him and he didn’t deserve me, to I could just give him half of my retirement to keep the house, to can I have a hug?

      That night is when I realized that he was not mentally right and he used words for manipulation. I wasn’t caving when he flattered and I wasn’t apologizing when he tried to make me feel guilty and I wasn’t reacting with fear when he tried to threaten me. He kept switching it up trying to get one to work. Hmmmm…that doesn’t sound mental but calculating, doesn’t it?

      • “Calculating” is spot-on. It took me a long while to realize that this is exactly what my STBX was doing as well.

        “Which approach will get what I want from this situation?” seems to be the narc default setting. At least with my STBX, it’s such a well-practiced tactic that it’s second-nature to him — and a part of the reason why it was so hard to see from moment to moment.

        You really have to take a step back to even begin to discern the pattern. It’s stunning when you finally see it.

          • It really is stunning when you finally realise the very obvious pattern. It’s only been in the last 6 months, since I’ve gone NC (as far as is possible when coparenting young kids), that his cycling between rage, charm and sad sausage is so clear and predictable.

            • My narcSTBXH fits this three-step pattern, too. Charm, sad sausage, rage. Dovetails nicely with his overall pattern of: Idealize, devalue, discard. The narc pathology is predictable after we’ve been in the proverbial trenches with one after a time. Thanks to CL & CN, I see how NOT alone I am as a Chump/Caretaker in recovery from narc abuse. Onward!

      • I remember X going from I love you and I don’t want a divorce with fake tears in his eyes, in the next breath saying he’s had enough, and can’t stay married to me with a huge grin on his face.
        They’re not right.. no one would believe it unless you experienced it.

        All these off the wall things they complain about are excuses for them to cheat. I know it isn’t a revaluation now. At the time as Chumps we’re trying to make sense of it and promising to only break the pasta in two places next time. Or if only I had bought the right kind of cheese he’d be happy and we would still be married.
        Eventually AP’s and GF’s will find out they’re not breaking the pasta noodles the correct way, or didn’t hang his shirts up facing the right direction, or are incompetent and don’t know how to boil water or breast feed their child correctly. It’s only a matter of time.

        • “No one would believe it unless you experienced it” indeed. It is so crazy. During our brief “wreckonciliation” my STBX went, in the space of 10 minutes, from sobbing about how much he missed his OW, to reciting all the ways I’d failed him that OW succeeded at, to then asking me for sex. All I could do was stare at him…this creature in front of me was so beyond anything I’d dealt with before, I had no clue how to react.

          He walked out the door a few minutes later, furious that I’d turned down his gross proposition. And I stared at the closed door for the longest time, wheels slowly churning in my brain trying to process what the heck I had just observed.

          I agree, brit, right now everything OWs do is perfect, but not for long….

  • If you research covert narcissist, vulnerable narcissist or shy narcissist you will find probably spot on the behaviors that you are talking about and the pathology of the people behind it.

    My moniker MAGNETO comes from being labeled the villain for years before final discard.
    Every victim needs a villain, and hey, IF I’m going to be a villain, I’m going to be a cool one.

    Realizing that everyone has narcissistic traits, but if your cheater falls on the narc spectrum on the “holy s#it !” side, realize that it is not you. You can’t cure it, you can’t control it and you didn’t cause it. That is the first step in the long hike away from this mess.
    Oh, and don’t kid yourself, CN’s take these hidden, passive aggressive traits with them. The sparkly new life is a lopsided love bomb cake with tons of pink frosting. Frosting sitting in the hot, hot sun.

    Everything they touch will turn to mush, sooner or later. Count on it, but don’t wait for it.

    • Yes!!! 100 % accurate Magneto! In my case my covert narc has now moved in with his Schmoopie, who is another covert narc. (They are soulmates, and so much alike, you know.) So…. what happens when two covert narcs get together? Stay tuned….

      And as for the question of the day – why does my cheater hate me? He hates you because you now know who he really is, and he views you as a constant threat because you may reveal his true character to others (and clearly you already have given your legal action). He hates you because you dared to react appropriately to what he did. It really is that simple.

      • I think mine hates me because I told others about what he did instead of supporting his narrative of everything being my fault for not letting him be he who wanted to be. LOL

      • Absolutely! The rage and hate that emerged from Sasquatch once I was no longer under his narcy spell was breathtaking. He lives in fear that I will reveal his true nature to his new Lolita or his place of employment and he HATES me for it.

      • Mine undulates between telling everyone I’m crazy and conspiring with Tarantula (his schmoopie) to post the meanest shit about me online, to calling me in the middle of the work day and leaving a sad voicemail about how sorry he is that he hurt me this way.

        ….alrighty there. Seems legit.

        In conversations my father now refers to him as The Toxic. I think it’s appropriate.

      • Dee, that is my life right now too…my STBX is moved in with the homewrecker,not even 3 months in to legal separation (unfortunately have to be separated for a year before filing ) she’s his soul mate, the ONE he’s meant to be with (I have emails from when we were dating saying all those things to me)His love is narcissistic piece of shit as well,all of her instagram posts are about her fit body,the # are hilarious, as if teen girl posted them..She is about to be divorced from husband #2 (who is 7 years younger than her,when they had 1st child he was 21 she was 28 .my ex is 4 years younger than her) and both husbands were bankrupted by her.My ex will be bankrupt too,as he’s TERRIBLE with money…told him when his little bubble will break, and unicorn pussy will lose her magic, I’ll be sitting back with my popcorn, enjoying that shit show..

    • I made the mistake of uncorking the coverts rage. It happened when I filed. When he was served the hatred was unleashed. He’s a sadist and wanted me to suffer.

      As Magneto said they take that passive aggressiveness with them. What coverts are very skilled with is making you feel as if you DO have the power in the relationship. He was a mousy head bobber who laughed and agreed then sabotaged and complained. NOTHING was good enough.

      They know exactly what they are doing. This weekend I attended a bridal shower and his mother and sister sat at my table and embraced me. I hadn’t seen them in years. They said nothing about the skank. They didn’t have to. I was told none of them like her. My sister in law sent me a FB request and asked me to go riding.

      TW your post hit the mark. I was surrounded by disordered and know the damage as well as the strength it takes to be the sane parent.

      To those whose children wonder why ‘friendship’ (pretending) is not an option? It’s about self preservation. Model this skill. They will thank you.

  • Unbelievable- but so true. My old, viagra addicted narc kept telling me how he wanted to be “single” ..

    Well after being served divorce papers he treated me horribly, slandering me, telling whore (my son too)
    that I stole from him, cheated, etc etc. which were all lies.

    Why wasn’t he happy I gave him supposedly what he wanted? After 34 years of what I thought was pretty good marriage..where did the anger come from?

    Hope Karma rears its head on both of them for the pain
    I still feel.!!

    • He wasn’t being accurate when he said “single,” he wanted cake, and pretend like he was single.

      Being single is really only fun and wonderful when it’s done in the proper time of life: when you’re young, and unmarried.

      • QueenMother… You are so right on!

        Sometimes we have to be careful what we wish for.
        Blowing up a marriage, family for strange, new whore is what he wanted.

        Hope they burn in hell ?

    • Watch this Chumps!!! It explains in detail, tells what you what you knew deep down, how you figured out Cheater and were open with him, and how that made him mad as hell!!! You were right about his crap-behavior and he doesn’t like you knowing, cuz he will not change. If anything’s gonna change, it’s going to be the married status, not his stinking behavior.

      • You’re WELCOME!

        I sincerely hope the link helps you!

        Please share the video and others by this individual to others to help them!

        Take care!

  • It’s “THAT LOOK” that they give you with their EYES!

    Says a million words,
    Hate and distain being at the top of the list!

    • “That Look”
      I have a photo, I wish I could post.., it’s a classic.
      perfect, the poster boy of the “look.”

      • I do too…I took a photo of him when he was talking to OW (the only time we were all in the same place)…he was all Schmoopie looking at her then he turned his head towards me (I was photographing his retirement reception) and I snapped the photo. Pure hatred…utter distain and contempt. Patsy has seen the photo. As much as I hate the photo, Im glad I have it…it validates my experience.

        • My strongest memory of “THE LOOK” is when he passed by me in our new home lovely kitchen and
          said to me, ( with “THE LOOK” in his eyes), before Dday), “You couldn’t be pregnant at a possibly worse time!”

          OMG, I am in need of Sad Selby’s emolgi talent now for saying ” Sperm says hello egg, and how did
          I accomplish that by myself?”

          (Shout out to CN, I admire and look forward to your everyday sense of humour often expressed in
          your posts.
          All you have been through and still the smiles you share.
          I have to say I LOVE you CN. You make my day) ?

          • ???➡️??‍♀️?‍♂️??

            Hopefully that’s what you were looking for. And the end is hopefully the response he got from you for the predicament YOU put him in by stealing his sperm fresh from the source and knocking yourself up!
            ???

        • unicorn, that reminded me of the look my husband gave me at our son’s wedding, then he turned and saw married schmoopie coworker and his face lit up like a Christmas tree. Ugh.

          • Lyn,
            Wow! was that when you first thought there might be something going on between them?
            Unicorns words accurately describe the picture I have of X giving me the evil look.
            I have it in my pictures on my computer entitled “the look of love.”
            Maybe someday we can compose a CN secret year book.

            • Brit, No, I had my suspicions about him and his coworker for many years. However, she was married and worked for him for a long time. She started out as a grad student. She had two small children and her husband was even at my son’s wedding. It was just so hurtful for my husband to spend most of the night at OUR son’s wedding dancing with his coworker. My ex always claimed they were just good friends. Always so painful that he was better friends with her than with me once she started working for him.

      • His lip curls with contempt when he talks to me, it’s quite horrible. I like to look at it as it makes him look really ugly and unattractive along with those dead soulless eyes, like piss holes in the snow.

        • OMG! This: “[he] looks really ugly and unattractive along with those dead soulless eyes, like piss holes in the snow.”

          Bingo!

    • I have seen those bird of prey eyes. Scary. I have a picture of Those Eyes, too, and as others here are saying it is validating to look at it as a reminder of the narcissistic rage.

    • Because it takes us quite a while to get used to the idea that there are pod people out there, who are NOT like we are. We tend to take people seriously, and if someone we know well and care about is angry or upset with us, we should pay attention, try to figure it out, try to fix it.

      It takes time, reading/videos about narcissism and sociopathy, to really believe that these pods are what they are, and that we cannot, should not, do not need to, give any attention to their opinion of us.

      Daily doses of CL and CN help that process along so much!

  • Sacrificed my career for “ours” and followed him across the country so he wouldn’t need to commute to be with his family. Stuck with him through unemployment, living in dumps in the middle of nowhere.
    I stayed home in the middle of no where, stranded in snow storms, electrical outages, during said snowstorms with a toddler, did I mention in the middle of no where not knowing anyone? no insurance, no money, no family, or friends. Meanwhile I supported him, smiled and gave encouraging. I was there for him so he wouldn’t be alone.
    This is while he flew all over the world to further “our’ career. We couldn’t afford to go anywhere, buy clothes, furniture, a washing machine when it went out. Put up with his family when they came to visit, cooking all the meals they liked while they looked over my shoulder as I cooked, uh, how much oil did you use?? is that canola oil? After dinner, I cleaned up after them while taking care of a toddler as they sat on their behinds ignoring their grandson. “They raised their kids,” they didn’t come here to babysit.., Listening to and empathizing to the health problems they might have, (nothing wrong with them).
    X would tell that these were are lean years and it would all pay off someday.. those lean years are looking pretty good compared to how I’m living today, not as young, a lot less light at the end of this tunnel, and without insurance. and he despises me.

    • Hugs to you, Brit. Had a very parallel experience to yours. All in the name of ‘partnership’ . Like the meme: Can you find the ‘i’ in the middle of the word ‘TEAM’? Oh yea…. it’s in the middle of the ‘A’ hole!

  • Well, Jen, you didn’t tell him he was right to cheat on you and then conveniently die leaving him with all your assets. Hope that clears it up!

    Despite the sarcasm (aimed at him, not you), I do sympathize. My EX remains furious and vindictive 6 years out. And his list of reasons he was wronged by the demise of our marriage grows longer and more detailed and more fictional as time passes. I’ve just gotten better at keeping wider and wider distances between us. I hope you can manage the same (though it is terribly hard as long as your children are young).

  • Whoo for the Jill Scott love! In 2010 when I was unexpectedly promoted from entry level to Executive without lobbying, the Silly Bitch stench from people I’d considered friendly was thick. My first Director of Operations directive was to make this song the ringtone on my company issued celphone.

    See Also: “I Keep/Still Here”

    I had a long relationship, short and bittersweet marriage, a clean break with no contact and no children, and still got the same result. It’s pretty clear from a recent unwanted interaction that Cold Slab of Meat and The Sluterus still are casting me in the role of Hypotenuse, but I’m just not playing. It’s been three years. I still need support for the mindfuck. I still need to hash over the FOO tendencies that allowed me to choose poorly. But otherwise these people are a train car of errant chickens who derailed on my lawn. Someone who pledged his life to me is now a Stranger to me. The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.

    It’s pretty clear to everyone, including the children who actually lived in the home with us, that I was a fucking outstanding wife. I worked 40+ hours a week, paid 85% of the bills, cooked and baked amazing meals from scratch, filled every gap in parenting for thisfucker and thisfucker’s ex wife to my stepdaughter without complaint. Ran around couponing and fixing things and doing most of the lawn care, Ugh. The fact that mid discard I was running SD to the orthodontist and providing her insurance bc neither narc parent could be bothered to take off work galls me to this day. Meanwhile thisfucker bought himself a new car and was contributing about 350.00 a month to the household.
    I’m not perfect. Even after D-Day, this fucker couldn’t simply say he lost interest. His fault finding was on the level that people sit down and discuss and resolve in half an hour. But he never did. Lunch Time Howorker Turtle Dick is clearly the solution when you don’t like the red microwave your wife bought.

    Even through parts the quickie divorce I was so heartbroken and yielding that I’m ashamed of myself now. The same dry logic that makes me design workflows well eventually took over and saw he was full of shit, but he got away with a lot. I wasn’t contentious, punitive or hellbent on damaging the Workplace Schmoopies. I saw love was no longer being served at the table. I got up and walked away in peace.

    Why would such a Timid Forest Creature and his Flying Monkeys hate you? Because you know. You know who they really are. You and his inconvenient stale offspring disrupt the narrative of his Beautiful Metamorphosis. Cold Slab O’Meat and the Sluterus cannot STAND that anyone knows the math is fuzzy on the conception of their Adultery Baby. It’s nothing personal. You’re the itchy witness they can’t shake, You’re the Comey memo in their angry Tweet.

    My meh is such that I can handle even being verbally accosted by the Sluterus at this point and laugh. I checked some receipts and know their Happily Ever After is a Constant Misery. I spoke with the Other Deleted Hypotenuse. I have receipts, which helped immensely to see the smear tactics used on me aren’t personal.

    Trust me, Jen, The Thing Does What The Thing IS, even when you are miles away. The Thing Does Its’ Fucked Up Thing to Others. You are not responsible. Keep protecting your kids in court, and stop trying to be a friend to a Stranger you wouldn’t want to know. Ask yourself- If you didn’t have children with thisfucker would he even know where you lived?

    • So many nuggets Luiza… thank you:

      – Someone who pledged his life to me is now a Stranger to me. The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.

      – The Thing Does What The Thing IS, even when you are miles away. The Thing Does Its’ Fucked Up Thing to Others.

      – If you didn’t have children with this fucker would he even know where you lived?

    • “…train car of errant chickens who derailed on my lawn.” That is fucking hilarious, Luz…HAW HAW HAW HAW HAAWW!!!

    • This is it exactly. He hates you because you know the truth. It really does come down to this one statement.

    • ” The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.”

      Luz, this is the post-chump epiphany we all need to have. I’ve never seen it expressed so perfectly.

      Thank you.

    • Luziana- ironic – as I live in Louisiana! Your words sum it up perfectly!

      “these people are a train car of errant chickens who derailed on my lawn.

      Someone who pledged his life to me is now a Stranger to me. The person he was never existed, and the person he really is I would never want to know.”

      DD was earlier this year. Tired keeping it together long enough to obtain evidence, get an appointment with lawyer – packed his shit, filed for divorce and total NC – as advised accordingly from this site.

      There are no words to explain the pain wrongfully inflicted upon a family, the fear, the confusion, shock, disbelief, etc.

      After seeing the true BS full blown dinner served in family court(will follow up with more details) the no protection from the NAR who found his married coworker more appealing than his stable family, I’ve decided “no shit” sandwiches. I’m not going to be the person that tells the children they have to compromise and split the baby on right and wrong because some study says it’s better to have both parents in your life?! I’m not lying to them or buying rose colored glasses so they do not see who their real father is. I’m letting them see it first hand and raising them to become NOT what their father is. I do believe that would fall under the category of “best interests”.

      Stand strong – serve the shit sandwiches, not eat a shit sandwich! Sorry, I’ve lost my sweet southern charm and ability to polish it this time.

  • Cognitive dissonance. Like everyone else, cheaters like to think of themselves as good people. But they have just engaged in weeks/months/years of deception and shitty behavior toward the poor chump. They have two choices: (a) acknowledge that they are horrible people with the compassion of pit vipers & morals of an alley cat, OR (b) think the chump is so despicable that he/she deserved to be cheated on.

    Guess which one they choose?

      • They then go right back to baseline. My STBX will have moments where he seems to acknowledge that he is a shitty person. I believe these are simply tools he uses to try to get something he wants because he always (and I mean always) goes back to blaming me.

        My favourite is how it is my fault that our kids will get less support because I wouldn’t agree to use his lawyer and quickly get a dissolution and now his baby mama is taking him back to court for more support. Ummm…I believe you are the one that created that child, not me. And thank God I didn’t use his lawyer. The amount of lies and the assets he has gambled away or spent on his latest AP and the creative accounting he is using to make almost $40,000 in income disappear means my kids would have gotten screwed multiple times over.

      • That one seems relatively easy…..look at what they DO after acknowledging their shit behavior. Changed behavior/actions over time would prove those words true or crap.

      • Cognitive dissonance for the win! I’m very stubborn and when I want something I will do what it takes to get what I want. And I wanted idiot cheater to admit It. Wasn’t. My. Fault. So I badgered and badgered and badgered him and eventually he admitted it wasn’t me. But I can tell you it’s not as satisfying as I thought it would be. And idiot cheater is sick and fat and miserable. And if idiot cheater was just regular guy not cheater I’d still want to be with him. Because even after all this I still love him. And it sucks. When they acknowledge they are terrible people it just makes them acknowledge they are terrible people and then they react the way people that are terrible react. By hating themselves (which we know a lot of them already did) and/or blame shifting (that shit doesn’t happen around here anymore. If I’m blamed for something I either own it 100% if it was mine to own or throw that shit back like an old boot on a fishing trip). It is a little bit nice for the cheater to own it but not nearly as good as you think it will be. I’m still Fucked. Up. I still cry if not daily then every other day. And I still have times I feel like it’s all my fault even when I know it wasn’t.

        • how long now for you? That cry everyday thing let go of me after three plus years. Now it’s a once every 2-3 weeks.

      • We are programmed to maintain our self-esteem and positive regard. It is possible (though not probable) that a cheater could acknowledge they behaved in a crappy way, but something or someone must be blamed for it–Schmoopie was SO persuasive, I started out trying to HELP Schmoopie with his/her marital problems, I ate too many Twinkies the day I started the affair, I was distressed that the chump had major surgery and thus couldn’t worship me appropriately during recovery….

        Even if there is a momentary understanding of “I brought the divorce on myself,” (which mine did say in a single minute of lucidity), it cannot be sustained; blameshifting must commence. It’s also possible that the moment of lucidity where they acknowledge their duplicity is just impression management–it looks better if they admit fault (mine was a MASTER of this), but they either don’t really mean it, or they shift to “you were a crappy spouse and I had no choice but to cheat.”

        I’d love to hear from people whose cheaters unequivocally acknowledged their fault in betrayal and divorce. Of all the hundreds of cases I know from CN, only ONE actually did so of which I am aware. One.

        • >>”Even if there is a momentary understanding of “I brought the divorce on myself,” (which mine did say in a single minute of lucidity), it cannot be sustained; blameshifting must commence.”

          This is my experience. My STBX has admitted several times that he has crappy character, he needs to be a better person, none of this is my fault, etc. However, each instance was followed shortly by one or more of the following:
          – subtle equivocations (“but we’re both broken”);
          -subtly stating that he was simply responding to perceived offenses … so, even though the offenses weren’t real, he really perceived them — thus, justification;
          – FOO issues (his parents screwed him up, thus none of his behavior is his fault)

          This crap had me fooled for a long time. Now I see the key was watching for his concern for the hurt he caused. Complete disconnect. To this day, he has difficulty even pretending to understand the damage he’s caused to me and (particularly) to our kids. Even when it’s explained to him in very basic language, he just doesn’t get it — and he doesn’t get it because he genuinely doesn’t give a rat’s ass.

        • The only person fuckface would acknowledge his deplorable behavior as being a “cause” for the divorce was my sister. She had been one of many who thought he was such a great guy in college. She is awesome and can always get him to look to the floor and mutter he was a coward in the marriage and agrees his actions were just plain wrong. Not admitting any of this to me, of course. He only admitted to an emotional affair to my face, never in text or email. What a smart little deranged being…. now that the kids,who are 18 and 14, know of his affairs via myself and others, the gloves are off and he downright hates me. I am confidant in my stating to him like a broken record that I walk in my truth, I live the truth and he can’t handle the truth!! Asshat coward is a new nickname for the lil’ guy.

  • Oh those inconvenient consequences…

    I know exactly why my ex hates me. When I found out about the EA (which was only what I could prove but believe was more) with a mitual hockey mom friend of ours I confronted him and sent her a surprisingly civil email asking her to leave him alone and never talk to him again. Her being the dutiful preacher’s daughter (eyes rolling) and likely for fear I would out her to the world so her kids and church community would find out (which was tempting but I resisted) she complied and completely blocked him for good. I know this for fact because it’s all he could talk about in counseling. “I can’t believe you would talk to her!!! I’ve tried to contact her and she’s blocked me!! I’m worried about her!!! I miss our daily texts!!! How could you???” You heard me right. My jaw was on the floor while the idiot counselor sat there calmly nodding and agreed it’s totally possible to “love” more than one person. So after 8 months’ worth of “wreckonciliation”, I subsequently kicked him to the curb a second time after discovering he was still trying to contact her. So yah, he hates me for destroying “what could’ve been.” She will forever sit on a pedestal in his sick twisted narc mind and he will make my life a “living hell” and is ready for “war” (as he told our mutual friends) all because I dared expect him to be faithful and be a part of our family, dared to demand respect, and dared to scare away his precious Schmoopie.

  • I had a school friend who was married three times. She talked about her husbands as if they were things, not people. She picked up and dropped friends over the most superficial reasons. She had affairs with married men. The reason we tolerated her was because she was hilarious, without meaning to be, and because she did not live close by. She died too young from a life of excess, alienated from her children. She used her money as a weapon. She never expressed regret or remorse and remains a topic of conversations because she was a textbook case.
    I hate to bring this up but I think genetics is in the picture somewhere. Her parents were wonderful people but her grandfather had a reputation for the exact same behaviors.

    • I agree I think genetics is in the picture too.
      I think these personalities have some sort of survival of the fittest advantage in a harsh and ruthless world. They tend to have a lot of kids and target people who will do the childcare work for them. They are like cuckoos, and I think it’s no coincidence that cuckold was the word for chump in the old days. I think our ancestors understood the process at work here better that we realise.
      They are ruthless which is another advantage in a world that used to be a lot more violent with little protection for the meek and the weak. The gifted ones become successful leaders and tyrants. The others make good sadistic foot soldiers. The masses are their pawns to send to the slaughter.

  • My ex has learned absolutely nothing. It is staggering.

    He suddenly produced a secret girlfriend on his horrified children – and put her into their parents bedroom. In other words, he lied to and cheated on them!

    He continues to be grandiose and will hock himself to the max in order to live in the lifestyle he thinks he entitled to.

    Oh well, no longer my problem.

    • That is fact – no longer your problem – sometimes the heart takes a lot longer to catch up to this fact – but you’ll be better off. We all will be once we just don’t give a damn about them.

  • The cheaters usually know they fucked up the best thing they ever had, or probably will have. So, if they make it not so good, in their own mind and the minds of others , it’s not as colossal a fuck up. “See, she really is a bitch. She wants blah, blah, blah. ” Fill in the blank with anything the chump deserves.

    I figured out a long time ago that anything cheaters do is self preservation, for them only. Not for the whore, who they know is a whore, but have to pretend not to believe is a whore. Cause, hey then they would be whore mongers. Can’t have that…

    • Anita, this blog is for support so I hate to disagree with you but I just wrote (above) about a childhood friend who was the worst kind of narcissist. She blew through people. When we were young the stories she would tell about herself were funny but as we got older we realized she left a lot of human debris behind her. It says something when a child despises its parents and her children certainly did her. We were all amazed, and eventually appalled, at the number of people she befriended and then dropped. She always had a new crop of people loving being around her because she was so charming and funny. I seldom saw her but when I did I would ask about friends she had told me about. She would not even remember who I was asking about because she had already been through two or three more groups by then. I never saw a speck of remorse in that woman. Not one. This is what is so dangerous about narcissists. They can charm the birds out of trees but they care less about the birds themselves. They do not care about anyone. She dressed to the nines. Her house was beautiful. Everything about her on the surface was successful. The reason that these people are so hard to live with, and interact with, is because they always win. They have no problem running all over you and leaving you behind.

      • Ooh, let go. Your description so matches the way my ex was. One of my kids recently told me that his dad has a group of people who follow him around and practically “worship” him.

  • Haha! They are such idiots, these cheaters. The arguments they trump up regarding non-compatibility are ridiculous. My H told me that the main reason he thought we were not suited for each other was that I liked to clean the house before guests came and he didn’t think it necessary; and that we didn’t like the same kind of movies. Both really idiotic reasons. And actually we did like the same kind of movies. The fact that we skied, hiked, played golf and cooked together, entertained frequently, had 4 children together, travelled together all seemed to be totally forgotten in the light of schmoopie.
    He invited me to travel with him during the wreckonciliation which, like a chump, I did. At the airport I noticed on the tickets that he bought himself a preferred seat but did not buy one for me. I said hey what’s up with that and I got the dead eyed look of absolute pure hatred. I will never forget that and the horrible chilling feeling. I realized in that moment that he had hated me for a long time because I was interfering with his lying and cheating.

  • The more my ex hates me and sends me expletive-laden emails and texts about the unfairness of the maintenance agreement (so hard, he only earns 10x what I do), the unhappier I figure he is with OW.

    • This 1000000+

      I figured out awhile ago that whenever STBX has something unpleasant he is dealing with in his life, I am the one he tries to dump on. NC (or grey rock in my case) means that OW should now take on that role. Good luck with that!

  • Ugh – untangling the skein. My X hates me with a passion because of the consequences. I swear he was 55 years old before he ever had consequences -that’s how good he is. And he is PISSED. He believes he’s entitled to money, forgiveness, good relationship with his kids, good reputation, keeping his secrets etc etc.
    (I think he was waiting for his birthday check from my parents – because they were always so close) Uh, no – so in his mind who is the villain who took all that away from him? Me. He told our kids that I destroyed our family because I was unforgiving. Talk about a partial truth! There’s a bit more to the story.

    His rage is fueled now by the Non-Disparagement Clause which is a boilerplate clause in all divorce decrees in our state. He is such a special snowflake that he believes the clause was written by our lawyers in a special way for just us. And he thinks it’s a gag order. So he is irate over me saying “hateful” things about him. He has told me that we should only talk about it with therapists and the kids because he totally understands that we have to process what happened. But to tell anyone else is just pointless because it ruins their day. He wrote, “Can you imagine happily going about your day and then someone comes up and tells you all this hateful stuff – it would completely ruin the rest of your afternoon. How could you do that to someone?”. He is such a caring guy who has SO much empathy for the neighbor’s feelings (not empathy – IMAGE CONTROL). Anyway, I told him if he was upset that I told my friends the truth to please take me to court – I’d love to tell the judge the truth too.

    • my ex says the same things! I’m like are you serious???? Telling the truth is not defamation! Not that our kids need to know the WHOLE truth. No point in telling them their dad missed their school meeting, competition, etc. because he was busy screwing hookers under the guise of working. But I’ll be damned if I’m not going to tell my friends the truth and be able to reach out for support! Oh, his family is furious that I told them the truth! Better to put on a fake face and make others believe lies than to reveal facts that aren’t conducive to the impressions you want to manage!

      Defamation—also calumny, vilification, and traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual person, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation.[1]

      Under common law, to constitute defamation, a claim must generally be false and must have been made to someone other than the person defamed.[2] Some common law jurisdictions also distinguish between spoken defamation, called slander, and defamation in other media such as printed words or images, called libel.[3]

  • Same here. Pure hate. Even adult kids say he hates me. He hates paying spousal support. He hates I got 1/2 his pension and 1/2 of all our assets.

    He used to scream at me to divorce him. So I did.

    We were married 32 years. I was mostly at SAHM.

    I am thinking about re entering workforce. Alimony is not enough but I do like knowing he has a monthly reminder of what the consequences of cheater life costs him 33%. Thank goodness for wage garnishment.

    His Schmoopie is 12 years younger, has to pay child support herself, and has kids at home with her.

    We had what I thought was a nice life.

    Apparently not, so I trust that he sucks, and no contact. CL nailed it when she said the world(i.e. our friends and his family) expect us to be friends and all ok. Just no. And NO. It will never happen as with his personality issues.

  • Ahhhh the blaming everyone else for their fucked up actions and ongoing bullshit. This so much – Phew phew happiness shield activated – Fuck off inbred goat humper that has to pay astronomically child support because he couldn’t keep his dick on his pants or his whore away from my child. There isnt any better poetic justice then making a fuckwit pay your mortgage every month.

    How I see it blame away – consequences asshole. Just imagine what these fuckwit cheaters could do with all that money – mine would drop it in a slot machine or plan another vacation while his child starved to death and I would still get blamed.

    Yup such a terrible thing to be such a bitch . . . Just kidding I actually love it and I know every month when the government takes thay child support from his account he becomes enraged and is permanently pissed off. Haha . . . I won.

  • Jen – very proud of you for staying strong and not letting this ruin you. But yes, we are all curious as to why they do what they do and why they don’t realize what they’ve done…no matter how bad they think the marriage was. They could have chosen to leave, divorce, do right by the children. Nope – they just think about themselves. Everything is about them, their needs, wants, and when you’ve taken that away from them, you’re the bad guy. Like so many have said – screw him, fuck him, don’t give him much thought – I need to take my own advice lol – But life will be So much better this way. In due time. For all of us

  • I said “fuck” three times during our six months of wreckconsiliation. Apparently saying, “Shut the fuck up. I don’t believe a word coming out of your mouth”; “Fuck you!” (during a PTSD panic attack he intentionally triggered; and then a random “Go fuck yourself!” caused more irreparable harm then his weekend get away with schmoopie #3 (10 days before our anniversary) and shenanigans with schmoopies #2&1, costing around $100k over 3 years.
    I think enduring 22 years of his bullshit and lies and the fact that I never enacted any physical harm upon his person AND only dropped 3 f-bombs in 22 years proves I have a fan-FUCKING-tabulous amount of self-control and restraint, thank you very much.

    • Yep. I would have gone medieval on his ass.
      Mine copped a right hook to the ribs and a hard slap across the head,, not proud, wished I had smashed his new iPhone instead, oh well.

      • Some days I regret not using his favorite golf clubs (the whole set) to destroy his Harley. That is my one true regret. Sigh …

    • Spackley – you definitely have an amazing amount of self control. Kudos to you for letting him live with all parts intact.

  • Good lord that Bill Eddy guy really has my ex down to a tee, especially the second part where the person absolutely refuses to change their behavior regardless of the consequences. That’s a big one that I didn’t understand that kept me in limbo for way too long. Normal people that are doing something wrong will usually stop what they’re doing and try to correct it. That’s what I would do, that’s what we would do, but unfortunately that’s not what our spouses would do.

    No, I likened my ex’s behavior at the end of the marriage to the ending in Thelma and Louise. She was going to do what she wanted, she was going to live for happiness and excitement, and nobody was going to stop her!! Not me! Not the kids!! Not the age of 40!! No, she was going to be the one to succeed at stealing that married COW from his wife. And she was going to drive that car off the cliff at full speed – but she was going to show me and the world that her car was the one care in the world that was GONNA FLY dammit!! I can hear her in my mind sailing off the cliff…..”You’re not the boss of meeeee!!!”

    Alas……like many others before her, her car ended up in a heap beside all the others at the bottom of the cliff. It was typical and really pathetic. I’d find more humor in it if it weren’t for the fact that all the kids and I could do is stand back and watch her take our lives over the edge with her in the process.

  • It really is amazing that even though we bend backwards to please them, take care of them….we are the evil ones. I nursed my ex through stage 4 cancer, 6 rounds of chemo (one on my birthday no less), 35 rounds of radiation. And the next year, I found out that he was in a long term affair for the previous 4— and I found out that he was telling everyone through it that I was the horrible wife. And according to him, the problem now is not his many years of cheating, and porn addiction, it that I didn’t allow him to let people believe his story which was that our marriage was bad and that is why we split. Because of me, they know the real reason why.

    He too fought me tooth and nail, 3 years in court…I got almost all of the marital bills and the headaches…he kept is side whore….yet he hates me like I stabbed his mother in the throat. But I keep moving, and every day his childish behavior bothers me less and less. Because the day will come when he will blame me for one more thing…and people will say “Move on, man….haven’t you been divorced for X years now?” It doesn’t work indefinitely.

    Also, the hatred tells us one more thing, all is not wonderful in la la land where they are living…..

  • ??yep, my STBX and family hate me as well. He is the master of playing the victim role. All the unhappiness in his life stems from my existence. His cheating was my fault, the consequences are my fault, the divorce is my fault, the financial upheaval -yep, you guessed it….my fault!

    Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.

    Fuckwit comes from a family where everyone else is the problem. Their views are the only view, and everyone else in the world is the problem. Of course they would never say that to outsiders, they just cut them down behind their backs and act like their best friend to their faces. I’ve witnessed this a lot in the 18 years I’ve known them. They step over people’s boundaries, are inconsiderate of other people’s time, opinions, and feelings. If you have the gall to call them out, suddenly they are the victims of your misunderstanding and irrationality, and do not hesitate to use lies to cover up and try and make you feel guilty.

    I’ll use my mother-in-law as an example, since she’s given me so much to use over the years, which her kids grew up with and model as well.

    she is chronically late (a family trait as well). Not just 2, 5 or ten minutes late, we are talking 30, 40, 60 minutes late. When you show upset, you are the bad guy, irrational, not understanding – in other words, you are the problem.

    She does not know the meaning of “NO”. This has been a delight to deal with since the divorce. “Oh, you are traveling into town during my parenting time and want me to change MY plans for you for the 10th time! Hey, no problem… since I’ve had the discussion 10 times that you need to plan your travel around YOUR CHILDS parenting time.” Since they do not like my responses, they’ve started bypassing me all together and communicating with the kids directly about changing their schedules. Eh, screw court ordered child custody, it’s all about them!

    Their opinions are the “right” opinions. If you disagree, they just use some bible verse that they have twisted to fit their agenda, to prove you wrong. See… god says… you are wrong!

    So it doesn’t really surprise me that since I do not conform to their mini cult mindset, that I am the bad guy. If they cut off my head, they get a little taller. They don’t have to look at themselves, the messed up messages of entitlement they modeled, or the fact they and their precious children are not perfect. I’m the problem … end of story.

    “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead”

    • “Does not know the meaning of no” What part does she not understand ? The “n” or the “o” ? My narc father’s narc wife’s (#3) son asks her this often-she’s very intrusive and overbearing.

  • HMMM… Jen… this is a quandry. I can’t say why your fuckwit is filled with hate… seems to me the surest reason is because HE KNOWS HE FUCKED UP. But he’s to prideful to admit it, that he actually made a mistake.

    Mr. Sparkles hates me for a bunch of really good reasons:

    – When he joined a co-ed softball league and the team name was “Cleats and Cleavage”, I found humor in it, as did our friends. Oddly, my son and I were never invited to a game.

    – When I told him he needed to remove his remaining belongings from my house, the divorce was final, he was incredibly inconvenienced and I was duly named Bitch.

    – While he was never faithful to me, I was 100% faithful to him.

    – I’m a good parent. Enough said.

    – I filed for the divorce. He was “in love” with his Schmoopie but asked me “was there a reason we needed to expedite it?”… meanwhile telling her that HE had already filed (SEE CL’s comment above about triangulation)

    – I didn’t need to fuck another person and ruin my kids lives to feel good about myself for a fleeting moment.

    – I didn’t get up at 5:30am in the morning to watch the Walking Dead with him.

    – I forgot his birthday (ok – that might be a legitimate reason!).

    Bottomline… in the words of Taylor Swift… SHAKE IT OFF. Consider yourself blessed that he’s so far away and so far removed. You and your kids are better without his daily interference. Let him and OW enjoy their choices. Grab a bucket of popcorn and have fun watching!

  • Tracy must have been a really good person in her past life because she just was given one awesome gift of discernment/ wisdom in this present life. Her words are DEAD ACCURATE in today’s column. As per her habit.

    I have been forced to join CN ( and love my daily readings now) almost three years ago and have learned few things:

    1. I have been rich, I am now poor. Rich is only better if one is happy. Poor is much more bearable than expected if one is happier.
    2. Family abandoners have troubled, disordered minds. When they go past the high of infatuation they cannot make themselves happy anymore than they can make someone else happy. They are too isolated in their self-love
    3. When Chump Lady says something, believe her.

  • Our cheater ex’s “hate” for us was well underway long before we discovered their cheating. Their hate will carry through until the day they take their permanent dirt naps. Me personally, I didn’t see her hate at that time because she was doing it covertly. Today, 4 yrs divorced and in the midst of a custody fight, her hate is both overtly and covertly.

    Pre-DDay, Whorenocchio was able to turn on her hatred towards me like a light switch. She would turn it on when I left the room, she would then turn it off when I entered a room. She used her hatred as a tool for cutting her positive attachment to me. She was always able to present a one-sided fictitious argument to herself. This gave her power to validate her narrative – that her cheating was justified.

    Since her hatred for me was so very long-lasting, and so very predominant today, I consider it to be more of an attitude or disposition than an emotional state.

    Let her hate me. I don’t give a flying fuck. Knowing that she hates me tells me that I am always on her mind. Karma, bitch.

    • Isn’t this the truth! I proffer that no one can treat another person the way cheaters treat their partners and be filled with anything BUT hate.

      Every lie, every action to cover their tracks – their multiple choices to cheat – all hate-filled.

      Scary! And, pathetic.

    • A year before DDay , I had a melt down by the kennels after the traitor had once again shot a volley of pellets past my head at the kennels roofs because the dogs were barking and he was pissed. My gut told me he hated me, it wasn’t about the dogs. I wailed to him that I felt hated, that my dreams were shattered.
      Later on he sort of apologised and I spackled over this new incident. He hated me all along or at least since year 2.

  • the schematic overlay of identical behaviors and events is staggeringly amazing and even funny. Yes, I have reached a point where I can even see some humor in the idjet’s actions-typical narc-cheating on all the piggy-backed women for financial support, while serial-cheating on every single one of them. In our life with them, we can chose to worry and have the angst as to what they are doing now, or chose the pain and sadness of ending the relationship. If we chose the former, it will be for the rest of our lives, and if we chose the later, SMILE, it doesn’t last forever. He was cheating with the schmoopie when married, and dumped the wife for the schmoopie. And the best part is his current schmoopie’s $100,000. loss in equity on the house she bought in 2007 to house him, his two sons and his woodworking tools. AND THE VERY BEST, AWESOME, FANTASTIC, HAHAHA-THE SCHMOOPIE IS NOW THE CL- HE CHEATED ON HER, REALLY CHEATED ON HER, FOR 3 YEARS, IN A COMPLETE SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP.

  • Jen I’m trying to untangle this skein myself these days. I had the great luxury of having a second Dday with young Schmoopie 2.0 (after an initial faux unicorn sighting the first time around some years ago and Schmoopie 1.0). I knew the signs this time around and did not pick me dance. I let him run off into the sunset for twu wuv. He was in such a hurry to discard me he didn’t care about the house or any of our possessions. He didn’t care enough to fight about the child support I asked for nor the custody agreement. He said the kids are teens and can decide when and how they want to spend their time. We have joint custody with ‘liberal visitation’. We still live in our home.

    A year out from Dday #2 and 8 months past divorce, I don’t think the twu wuv’s panned out. I have mostly gone no contact. I started getting a lot of texts from him in the last month. I finally figured up his 1 year lease is up and he’s trying to figure out where he’s moving.

    The kids spend a couple of nights a week with him but don’t really want to. He’s trying to change the visitation and now telling them the HAVE to stay with him 50 % of the time. He punts all kid’s expenses to me and told our daughter to ask me to pay her summer fee ‘I just paid mom so she has the money, ask her’. Wow! What a tool. My daughter asked me to stay home full time and just live off the money dad gives. I had to tell her his money doesn’t even cover our house payment. She looked dumbfounded by this. I’m guessing the sad sausage is playing poor now. All while he’s buying a $500,000 home. Hopefully our teens will see the irony of this.

    I’m trying to let it roll off my back. Be the sane parent. Not make kids feel bad for needing fees, glasses, school supplies, etc… I’ll be a good chump and suck that up to. Otherwise I’d have to interact with a fuckwit and it’s just not worth it. I have a good job and have the ability to do this so I don’t give him the anger he’s looking to spew on me!

    I know there are so many of you in CN that have it so much worse than I do. I pray for all of us to get the strength to leave this crap behind and move on to ‘meh’ and a cheater free life.

  • That “hate” left me scratching my head too. He finally got the balls after 32 years of cheating, double life lying all the way out the door. NOTHING these aliens do makes sense! I overheard my X telling someone that it was me ………….NOT fun, liked to sleep in on vacations and he was a ” FIREBALL” kinda guy. I robbed him of fun, even though I’m athletic, my garage has golf clubs, motorcycle, kayak, baseball gear, tennis rackets, hiking gear, fishing gear, waterski’s, snow ski’s worked along side him building homes, remodeling, landscaping you name it, I was there…. sporting gear all mine…. etc. DAMN Im no fun, that was so heartbreaking (LOL) that I celebrated the divorce by SKYDIVING …… FREE at last!

    • You have to have the same ideas an interests as them or they think it’s a slight against them to do something they didn’t come up with.
      Mine thought I was boring, sorry don’t see many other women my age out snorkelling with turtles and taking their kids crabbing and fishing, most are busy getting a tan and don’t want to mess their hair up. Good luck in the post 40s dating world buddy.

  • Actually, I think they hated us ALL ALONG…the exposure and divorce was just the final opportunity that brings this fact out into the open…in other words, “game over”, no need to hide behind the mask anymore. This is just what depraved people DO because it is part of their Character Disorder.

    I have two cheater X’s. Looking back, they BOTH showed their selfishness and hatred towards me in subtle ways from the beginning of the marriage. I spackled. It became far worse as I dared to challenge some of this selfishness and entitlement, and finally, their contempt of me reached the peak upon my discovery of their cheating. Their cheating and mind fucking/gas lighting DURING the marriage was simply their underhanded way of saying “fuck you bitch” behind my back while using me as a wife appliance and taking advantage of my love, work and loyalty. They became more emboldened the more they got away with, while I looked for ways to improve the marriage based on what I thought was my fault.

    So the open hating of us is not really a sudden thing brought about by the divorce process. They began hating us BEFORE the cheating, exposure, or consequences ever took place…hence, all the blame shifting and accusations they hurl, particularly once they realized that we see them as they are and WE finally have enough. They also are not content to just hate US…this extends to our children if they think they can use that opportunity to hurt us too. The more we grovel, the better they like it because it makes them feel superior to have a good person willing to grovel at their feet, and it gives them more opportunity to show further contempt.

    Getting their freedom from us will never quell their hatred. That’s not good enough for them. They MUST then use their hatred of everyone (who has their number) to shield themselves from looking inward and facing their own depravity. It is part of their character, and their new partner is simply the next victim regardless of what it appears like on the surface.

    My first cheater X (25yrs ago) has been cheating on his current wife for four years now…after she lost both breast due to cancer. My current cheater X is now openly on the hunt for his next victim after I exposed him and he filed. He ghosted me since the day he left nearly two years ago, which is the only way that he has left to show his contempt. I, however, take the ghosting as a huge compliment and relief. The more he hates me, the more the contrast shows in our different characters.

    • Sweetz
      This is what beats me up and keeps me in therapy – that perhaps they hated us from the very beginning – why did I tolerate/spackle that for 35 years even though there were signs along the way?

      • Well Alan, we projected our own values onto them and practiced giving them the benefit of the doubt. That’s what kind people DO. The signs we saw were chalked up to “faulty human behavior” and so we’d forgive and hope for the best going forward, rather than seeing their deep character disorder. We were unwilling to give up the hope and face the inevitable loss.

        They hated from the beginning…they were “wired” to do so probably from childhood, and no amount of love from us or spackling could help them. No amount of therapy will allow you to embrace ANY acceptable reason for what these people are capable of doing. Their charm and false love is very convincing and believable…they learned how to interact with chumps early on…so we plod onward while they work their magic to get what they wanted from us.

        If you cannot imagine the concept of Evil vs Good, you will probably continue to stay in therapy. In other words, some people are just evil…they gravitate towards it using calculated advantage even when they know in their hearts that it is wrong…they are willing to gamble to get their dopamine fixes nevertheless.

        So sorry Alan.

        • Thank you Sweetz. I’m still rotating between anger and grief at a year out but you’ve given me something to think about which might get me closer to Meh and also fix my picker.

        • You write so well. Mine wants resolve even though he realises we cannot be together. Translation you want to keep me around so you can get kibbles and keep tabs on me. Sorry give these people nothing no feelings no talking about what happened. It’s all food for them to share with their circle of fuckwits. I don’t tell him stuff all anymore. I have learnt the hard way that everything will be used against me. He hasn’t dragged the kids in yet but my parents are always hot targets.

  • After I helped my ex get known to the public by getting & booking him some really big stuff with my connections, I suggested we start a company to sell things with him in it as many people do once they have interest/fans.

    Of course he went along with this. I spent hundreds of hours building websites, setting up platforms, booking him to promote, etc… but there were things he had to help with. Work that needed to be done. He was always slacking and putting off the work part.

    Finally with the ‘Today Show’ appearance looming and his part not finished, I finally broke down in frustration. I said, there is a six figure pay day coming if you get your part done, I’ve done the work for a year, why are you sabotaging what you said you wanted?’ He shrugged and said, ‘I’m the looks of the operation and I don’t feel like it.’ I looked at him in total frustration and said, ‘then why did you ask for me to do all of this work, and set al of this up, agree to do your part, only to blow off your part in the home stretch?’ He said, ‘I don’t fuckin feel like working on it ok, get over it!?’ I lashed out and said, ‘Where I come from you work hard for everything, that’s how we got here. My hard work. If you were my employee I’d fire you!’

    …well it’s true I would… he got so mad he used that phrase in a fight till he left me…and he blew up the company and refused to help me finish his part. I put in 18 months of work, thousands of my own money, and in the end he blew off the six figure paydays on 2 shows to be spiteful.

    Logic is not in them. Wtf?

  • “Watch me contort myself into tiny shapes of obsequiousness!”

    That had my dying. Painful, but true! Eternally grateful that this impossible to fulfill demand is no longer my job, for I was on the point of entire erasure, so tiny had I become.

    Among my flaws:

    –Did not respond well to porn, strippers, alcoholism, affairs.
    –Did not come up with a way to save him from himself. (No kidding. He said that.)
    –Lazily permitted the occasional weed to sprout.
    –Folded the undies wrong.
    –Never got the ratio of meat to cheese in a sandwich exactly right, to say nothing of the mustard.
    –Did not show up at things to which I was, hmm, never actually invited.
    –Parented in a way that permitted love between the children and I to thrive, which was patently unfair of me. I mean, he should have all of the love, even though he was absent and awful.

    Yeah. Hate is just another justification. Mine wanted out and into schmoopie world sooooooooooo much, but he is going to drag out divorce eternally. It’s what they do.

    • Yes! Mine hasn’t always hated me, I think it started when our first child was born 28 years ago. He thought I loved the kids more than I loved him. Of course, narc that he is, this was a hate-worthy offense. As time passed it inevitably also became a self-fulfilling assumption.

      Today, over three years after discard and three months after divorce, I think I probably hate him more than he hates me. It’s not a red-hot-fury-type hatred, more like a life-giving and fortifying hatred—overlaid by pure disgust and disbelief that I was conned by such a lowlife for so long.

  • My stbx cheating wife and her “the apple doesn’t fall from the tree” mother hate me because I told my daughters (21 & 17) and her friends that their mother had been cheating on me for the past 10 years with their soccer coaches (amongst over men). They are also enraged that the judge at our temporary support hearing, which she initiated, ordered her to pay me support for my minor child (who lives with me). The trap assumed that the judge was going to award her with an astronomical amount of spousal support because I make a lot more money than she does. But because she was a horrible mother (my daughters chose to live with me) on top of being an awful wife backfired and now she is grasping at straws. She even submitted an affidavit with the court claiming that the judge was prejudice against her (it was denied). Mind you that our judge is an African American lady who will preside over the rest of our divorce hearings. This delusional sociopath’s only reason to hate me is so asinine but she has to blame me for something in order to try to make me look like a bad person. The tramp needs to understand that their are consequences when you do something horrible to people, especially to the people you claimed to love.

  • STBX hated me just before he decided that dating while married was the solution to his problems. He hated me for all of the stupid reasons that others have mentioned here. Now, however, I don’t think he hates me anymore and he no longer blames me for the unhappiness that lead him to stray in the first place.
    He does, however blame me for not accepting his relationship with Schmoopie and he blames me for the fact that nobody else accepts their relationship either. It’s my fault my daughter hates Schmoopie. It’s my fault his family is “on my side” as he put it. He wasn’t too happy when I explained that they were actually on his side too, he just didn’t perceive it that way. He is upset with me for talking to people about what happened. I may have talked to more people than I should, but if it weren’t for him I wouldn’t have anything to talk about. I hurt like hell and sometimes I need to talk about it with people who care about me, including his family. In other words it is my fault he can’t just run off and live happily ever after with Schmoopie. He is feeling isolated right now and sees that as my fault. It may be my fault indirectly for having the nerve to have a good relationship with his friends and family, but it was his actions that caused all of us to be upset with him. He has isolated himself by choosing her over me and quite frankly his kids although he still thinks he is putting them first. I am not sure the kids (and my daughter in particular) would agree. Even STBX admits that both he and Schmoopie did wrong, but somehow we are all supposed to accept it anyway. It’s still all about him and his happiness at the expense of everybody else.

    • Chumpinrecovery

      Oh yeah, it’s not much fun once the newness wears and she figures out he never initiates sex. Add to that just how isolating it becomes once the bills limit all those dreams and the loving family has moved on.

      For years he demeaned me, flirting with other women in my presence. I too made everyone aware of his actions. He fancies himself as the one who discarded me; I’ve got the documents to prove I threw him out and filed.

      It’s a happy place to be fat away from all that hatred and unchanging cycles he is compelled to relive. In the end he has a hole.

  • The list of what I didn’t do once he was foucused on what I know know to be ‘disguarding’, was so long! But like many of you he kept asking for more and I kept over extending myself to do more.

    –was ok with porn 24/7 (I wanted real love)
    –didn’t want threesomes (evil shrew I was)
    — was upset he took horse steroids behind my back ( never question the narcissist)
    –didn’t support him ‘enough’ once said steroids gave him man boobs and he demanded plastic surgery during my cancer chemo radiation. (even telling me it was more important.)
    — didn’t always have all of his 60 pre prepped meals done for his fitness regime weekly on Sunday.
    — didn’t dress sexy enough ( me being a playboy model was not enough) he wanted me in 5 inch heels and short, shorts 24/7- even in cancer.
    — pissed I wore sweat pants and the cardinal sin of ‘being covered up’ all the time. I was his prized pig after all and I wasn’t acting like it. I like clothes that were respectful to others- what a bitch I was.
    — He actually changed our commitment in his pea sized brain and said he wouldn’t have agreed to ‘us’ if he thought that we weren’t going to have regular threesomes! Wtf! That was not in my commitment agreement. Changing the lines again!
    — on that note as he was moving his shit out to go stay with one of his smoopie pro ice skating ho’s – he raged how I had only allowed one threesome in our six years and that she was more into me, that it was a waste! ( he was totally furious for real).
    — I harped him about leaving to toilet seat up ( wow I suck)

    As far as I can tell, he just couldn’t see the years of support, the reason he got successful from my connnections, or my love and support. He just saw unrealistic ‘slights’ as man babies do. I am still furious and sad at the same time!

      • ?? I wish! Funny! His damn man boobs god he made me feel them everyday. I can’t believe that was my reality! He’d probably complain that his boobs didn’t count. Ha!

        Thank god he is All 50 of the OW’s problem now and not mine!

        On a side note- I found out he had met some of ow and sent them my pic trying to get a threesome going( without my consent) fucker!

        He probably plotted how to get them to ‘bump into us’ and some magic penthouse forum letter would unfold. Fuck no! I like being committed and loyal! I’m a one man kind of girl! What a wanker!

        • “Hey, honey — time for you to feel my man boobs. There we go. Are you hot yet? Threesome hot? Because remember, I’m your husband and as a former model, you owe me that …”

          This just does not compute.

          • He did touch his boobs constantly! ?God, writing it here makes me see the absurity of my former life! I learned a lot! ☝️The crazy thing is, he started whining that he had had them his WHOLE life! Not that they just appeared after he did that six different horse steroids from China that some shady bodybuilder dude sold him at the gym.

            Really douchcicle? I’m pretty sure I was booking all of those magazine speads, and gigs for you not as a ‘man boob model’ but a regular one with 8 pack abs! He literally wouldn’t acknowledge the truth of the last several years of his success. Why I expect him to tell the truth about me I guess is never happening!

            It was all. ‘look at my boobs, look at my boobs, touch them, feel that, I’m miserable I can’t ever take my shirt off again if I don’t get surgery right now! Since I was a kid my boobs have been big!’ FML?

  • Like CL says, this is trying to untangle the skein. I don’t know that my X hates me… yet, but I do know that according to him I was mean, a lousy lay, unsophisticated, ordinary, bland, silly, dumb, stupid, ridiculous, etc., etc.

    I do want to understand the dynamics of my relationship with my X because then I can fix that picker. I do not ever want to engage in a relationship like that again. I find that the interesting thing is that since my X has been gone, I get along just fine. Better than fine in fact. I felt like I was literally, going crazy having to live with my X. I never did anything right. He was a killjoy about EVERYTHING. He ruined holidays and events. He was a nightmare to go out with. He treated me like his servant. Now that he is gone, there is no little black raincloud overhead. Life is good. I feel happier and that burden is gone.

    I feel like these disordered types are masters of projection. Everything they say about you is really code for what they are doing wrong or their role in the relationship. Once you start figuring out what is really going on, they really don’t like the person they see in your eyes, looking back at them – aka themselves.

  • Thank you all for your advise and support. It’s always good to know that none of us are alone in this adventure called life.

    I’ve found many ways to laugh at my ex and the whore. Apparently now they pray together. Her new mantra is #praytogetherstaytogether! LOL! Some of this stuff you can’t make up!

    While I truly make it my job everyday to stay the “sane” parent and navigate thru the BS that he tells the kids, I find that the toughest part. We both sat in court and had to recite the “Children’s Bill of Rights” to the judge. One of which states is that we will never put the kids in the middle. Apparently he forgot that part. He takes zero responsibility for the fact that I bring my girls to therapy every other week because of his fucked-up-ness.

    I have so many things to be grateful for. Beautiful, amazing, healthy kids, a well-paying stable job, a supportive family, amazing friends…I’m over the boo hoo stage and asking myself “why me”…. I’m actually to the point that I’m glad he’s gone. I wish it happened sooner. He’s become (or maybe always was) a terrible person, terrible father, a non-existent son that would have zero relationship with his family if it wasn’t for his amazing wife. Smoopie inherited a shit show riddled with PTSD. Good freakin luck and good riddance!

    Just leave me and my kids alone. If not, I’ll see you in court again, again, and again! I had written in my last divorce document that if he defaults on ANYTHING that he is liable for my attorney fees. The dummy signed it.

    I can’t thank you all enough for the support, laughs, and love! #myboyfriendishotterthenheeverways! LOL!

    • Glad you found a hottie. My ex is a short ass. Hoping for a nice strong tall one next time. Ex will be spitting chips as he is desperately insecure.

  • I agree with Sweetz – at least that has been my take-away. The hate was there a long time before we were aware of it or willing to acknowledge it. I’m not sure exactly when it started, but aside from the love-bombing, I believe the EX hated me for YEARS because the sane part of my brain recognized it and I would sometimes comment on it. I mention things like, “Your overriding feelings toward me seem to be disdain, indifference or contempt.”

    They are also able to harness that hatred as a means (or attempted means) of control. Normal people want the people they care about them to care about them in return. We loved these people, created lives and families with these people and believed we could mitigate the cause of their hatred. So they not only feel it, they attempt to wield it to control how we respond to them. We couldn’t and we can’t control it because it has nothing to do with us, who we are, what we do or don’t do. All of that is distorted and twisted to serve whatever narrative they have going on in their head at any particular time.

    In my case, the OWife hates me more than he does (she’s more disordered than he is, if that’s possible). Keep in mind, I don’t engage her, have never done anything to her, don’t care about her existence except as it has impacted me and my children. However, when she wanted him to leave me years ago and he wouldn’t (because – child support for his children, helping her take care of the two children she had already, plus she wanted to have his children to cement the relationship and she was not as financially secure and willing to support him as now) she hates me because she felt I “had her man” all those years. She’s almost Fatal Attraction level disordered. I once told him I didn’t understand people who thought cheating and ending up with the person with whom they cheated was a cause for celebration. My exact words were, “I would NEVER be with a man who wanted to cheat on his wife with me. When you marry a man who cheats on his wife, you’re married to a man who cheats on his wife.”

    My EX hates me because he loves money and I’m getting about half of his pension, which he thought he was going to be able to keep (because he is also apparently stupid). He quit his job to be with the now OWife and he has a lot less money of his own. He is constantly complaining to our adult children that he doesn’t have any money because I get half of his pension. My response to them? “And why do I get half of his pension?” (Answer: Consequences). As my friend remarked, “He said he wanted to be happy. You gave him a divorce and left him alone so he could be happy. Isn’t he happy? He should stop complaining and go be happy.”

    Jen, you’re not disordered, so you cannot and will not understand the reason he hates you because it has nothing to do with you. Just know that it isn’t personal. I know that doesn’t sound reasonable, but it’s true. Everything he feels about anyone and anything has more to do with the clown car constantly driving through his head and little or nothing to do with objective reality. Just keep thinking about a popular meme which is how I feel about my Ex’s hatred – “You mad? Here’s a cape. Now you can be super mad.”

    • Chump Princess – harnessing the hatred as a means of control….. yeah, totally.
      I see that looking back. But makes sense – they can’t love – really love, anyone. Only control and manipulate.

      Mine ‘wanted to be happy,’ too. I divorced him. He has a 24 y.o. and nice house and new desert vehicle, big toy hauler, thousands of dollars of camera equipment, RC cars, big truck, etc. But, he is still not happy. All the money, things and 24 y.o.s in the world will not make them ‘happy.’

      Just like real love, real happiness is something they can only chase. The emptiness will always be there for them.

      He told me months ago he could not afford to give me support – he will be broke and living under a bridge – he can’t do it. I went for it anyway in court. Well, he’s paying me support, paying my lawyer lawyer fees, and can still afford a baby, 25k vehicle for the desert, huge toy hauler to haul it, more camera equipment, remote control cars, drones, you name it……. His court papers are full of lies. Another lie has just been exposed and I’m sure he will be furious any day now over it.

      There is no reasoning or negotiating. It’s his way or you will pay way.

      He was mean and nasty to me over something stupid the other day. I calmly explained what happened which smashed his nonsense. Then there is silence. I like the silence.

      It’s like they see everything through a veil of rage and entitlement.

  • I was married 23 yrs to a Narc/ Sociopath that was a golden child who had no consequences.
    His family was like a pack of hyheanas dressed in J.Crew and pearls when they would go on a smear campaign against anyone that lifted his mask to the public.
    Image is everything to them.
    After our first child was born my role changed to him (madonna / whore)
    In his fucked up head, I became his mother and the resentment came.
    I don’t give a shit if he hates me, if his sick wacko family hates me. I am validated every time when a new victim of his weasel life style finds me and tells me they are sorry for not believing me after D day.
    ( I kept no secrets in the beginning and spoke my truth of what happened to me, when I got no support, I went NC and began rebuild my life with my kids. ).
    Once i had space from toxic I began to not care if they hated me, thank god they hated me , it meant I did what not many of their sheeps had the balls to do, I broke free, gave them the big middle finger and turned my back…The ultimate narc injury.
    THANK YOU CHUMPLADY AND FELLOW CHUMPS for giving me strength and not feeling alone on my journey to my new life…xxxooo

  • I’ve told this story a million times. It is iconic in my memory, for why The Coward hates me.

    A couple weeks after D-day, in the horrible interim between bomb drop and the day he moved out for good, on a weekend day, he had to go to “work” to check in on how a project was progressing. Uh-huh, sure he did. Well, just because you’re married to an asshole who is torpedoing your family, doesn’t mean life stops. The lawns needed mowing. Far be it from The Coward to trouble himself, so, once again, I pulled the lawn mower out and went to work. I finished the front lawn and was mid-way through the back lawn. I’d snapped a sprinkler head off by accident. The Coward pulled into the driveway, smug and self-satisfied, and found me in the back yard. He knew what it looked like, and offered (how very magnanimous) to finish the lawn. He practically begged, me, really, because he knew he looked like a completely spineless not-man. I refused to let him think he could redeem himself with such a small gesture, and I finished the job. He sneered at me, “You BROKE the sprinkler! You ALWAYS do that.” Yup. He went there. Idiot. I also ALWAYS fixed them. He realized in an instant what a dick he looked like–maybe if he’d have taken more responsibility as the man of the house, he’d be more of a man in his own eyes, and in mine.

    I glared at him. I said, “Yeah. That whore blows smoke up your ass. Makes you feel like a REAL man, doesn’t she? And I remind you of what you REALLY are. Fuck off.”

    And that right there is why he hates me. Hate away, hater. Coward.

  • Oh my goodness. I have printed this out for my future reference. It describes my husband perfectly. He is disordered. I knew his mind did not work right but this is so plain. He fits all the criteria of a disordered person. It gives me confirmation there is no amount of working on my marriage that would make a bit of difference. He does not, cannot see things like a normal person. He has hurt me so deeply, so so many times. He will do horrible things and the next day expect everything to be back to normal. The psycho baby mama attacked me on Christmas day and he blamed me. He cursed me out and hit me after she tried to hit me with a bat and run over me with her car. He blamed me that his dad had to hold her back from attacking me. He blamed me that he went back and had sex with her conceiving a second child because I asked him if he was sleeping with her (which he never stopped). He said I provoked him to sleep with her. He has put himself and me by extension into such a horrible financial position and then goes out and gets a dog that I have to feed and take care of because he works out on a boat 3 weeks out of a month. He has three child support orders (1 for me and 2 for her) but I believe he has gotten her pregnant a third time. He knows he is destroying his life but refuses to stop. He has cheated on a faithful and devoted wife who raised our 6 kids (3-14) mostly by myself for the last 10 years (how long he has worked on the boat) with a woman who is bipolar, intellectually deficient and has a long criminal record. And had two kids with the woman. I could go on and on with examples but its so depressing. Because I know what all this says about him, but I also know what it says about me. That I still have not divorced someone who has shown me time and time again what an awful person he is. I know my self-esteem is in the toilet and I do worry that providing for my children, even with my salary and child support will be overwhelming. I worry about him allowing that beastly woman around my children even though I have an order of protection against her for 2 years and she is on probation for the attack against me. I feel like I have stayed because he is the devil I know. But I don’t want to continue on like this. I won’t. I will divorce him. He does not deserve me. My children do not deserve this dysfunction.

  • Another angle of this is the relationship with the OW.
    Many cases, if he hates YOU – he can’t do hateful things towards her.

    So, the pile on is nightly and intended to prove their devotion to each other and strengthen their bond.
    No triangulation necessarily, this dynamic “crazy wife”, “crazy x wife” keeps the affair fires burning for a long, long time.

    Think about that for a minute. Who attempts to build a relationship up by tearing another down?
    What happens to the “new schmoopie love” when the old chump will not take bait anymore or becomes a boring side note? Well, they need to stir the coals of hate to keep the affair fires burning.

    That is why NO CONTACT is a chumps best friend. Trust.

    • No Contact is the only way to go..Carry yourself with grace and dignity while the disordered fight amongest themselves.
      It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do, I would have liked nothing more then to get in a street brawl with ex and ow, but I promised myself in the beginning to remain silent , at times I felt I would short circut mentally but Its been 3 yrs of golden silence and it drives them all crazy

  • I suspect that in order for the cheater to still think of themselves as a “good person”, the chump has to become the “bad person”.

  • Jen, it’s just classic cheater narc changing the narrative bullshit. I know it hurts and baffles you and just feels generally awful, but if someone like your ex is hating on you, perhaps you’re doing something right in life. Stay the course! And come here for support 🙂

  • Here is a thought… they don’t hate us. Not one bit. Not any more than they ever loved us. It would require the capacity to feel.

    They are self-loathing, so any “hate” you feel is merely projection of what they feel about toward themselves..

  • My ‘insight’ this that came to me a couple days ago is the amount they feel like an asshole about what they did is directly proportional to how much they hate you. Those cheaters bothered by pangs of conscience will project that shit onto you as they don’t have the capacity to deal with the righteous self hatred so name you are vilified with its full force instead. As I think on it now it makes even more sense, my dad is a raging narcissist of the logic not emotions variety and always had such healthy self regard that he saw his cheating simply as his God given right for having his needs met. Hey he was a great guy right, totally unruffled by his actions and their consequences for everyone else and holds my mom in high regard to this day.

  • I’m hated for enforcing boundaries and dealing out consequences. The cheater begged and cried and pleaded for a second chance. I agreed, but laid down strict expectations. Including all the typical relationship police bullshit like a tracking app, checking in via video calls, etc…

    He said over and over that he was willing to do anything whatsoever not to lose me and he would gladly do all those things without hesitating. Until he lived with it for a while and decided he didn’t like it very much.

    Then he started being a passive aggressive dick. And also telling people that he was a prisoner, living in fear of me and my obsessive rules. He claimed he was so stressed by me that he was vomiting, having heart palpitations, couldn’t sleep, lived in a constant state of terror.

    And people believed him! He finally got dumped after I caught him spinning a tale of abuse to some chick online who bought it hook, line, and sinker and was fretting over him and getting herself stressed out.

    He hates me and claims that I ruined his life and gave him PTSD with my abusive, dehumanizing control campaign. Or so he was saying until I cut ties with all our mutual acquaintances. I don’t know what he thinks and says about me now. I don’t care.

    • Wow, ChumpSaidBuhBye, that gave me chills. My cheater also begged to stay except he was the one who offered all kinds of crazy terms, including setting up a fund to keep a private investigator on retainer. I’d be able to have the PI check up on him any time I liked and without notice. There were other things, too — calling in, etc. I was surprised the ex didn’t offer to wear an ankle bracelet, he was that far over the top.

      But I was done. At DDay3, lest I seem mightier than I was. I declined on the basis that I didn’t want to live that way. It seemed like a recipe to make me obsess about him 24/7 and I wasn’t convinced it would work. Any system can be evaded. I also didn’t think it was a sincere offer. In the same conversations he’d claim he had NO TIME to cheat!!!! even though I knew for sure he was cheating. (I’d finally gotten some excellent and detailed intel and had also wised up and didn’t tell him what I knew. So he probably imagined I knew only about a few incidents. Ha!)

      Most of all, though, I saw myself disappearing into a fruitless obsession and I wanted to have my own life, not play a thankless supporting role in his.

      Now that I see how it turned out in a situation where this sort of monitoring was actually tried, I feel weak with relief. I didn’t think it would work with mine, and I didn’t want a full-time role of HomeDick Security, but I never thought about how I could be made to look to everyone else. I feel chills. The ex is a huge “pity me” whore (in all senses of that word) and would certainly have spun it that way. He had the one friend I confided in after DDay2 feeling sorry for him because less than a month later, I “couldn’t let it go.”

      I’m so sorry you had this play out in your life. It is amazing how these creeps turn everything into a tool for their own evil use. I’m glad you’ve been able to put it behind you. You are mighty.

      • ‘Most of all, though, I saw myself disappearing into a fruitless obsession and I wanted to have my own life, not play a thankless supporting role in his.’
        The focus remains on them, no thanks also.

    • Mine spins me as controlling,, umm no just expected you to act are certain way being 43 and a father of two. You know be an adult.
      I figure he’s like a teenager and I’m his Mum trying to keep him in school.. Yawn, done.
      I got a lot of ‘you don’t own me’ crap.
      Be free fly away!

  • Apparently I got out the vacuum once at 5:30 pm on a Friday when he wanted to relax….
    No wonder he had to go out and fuck my friend lol.

  • I have been reading all day, I am so sad for all the long term marriages. I just “celebrated” my 39th anniversary. Covert narc played so well, and can’t believe I am divorcing him.. he did “so many good things” was a pretend good father to now three grown children and two grands who think he is wonderful. I am picking up the pieces and moving on. To understand the contradictory statements of I have can’t believe I have messed up the best thing I ever had to all a the ridiculous blameshifting. Back and forth , nothing makes sense. However 20 years of prostitutes , I’m hating what I had now.

  • True NAR test – go after their retirement, pension, 401k, savings and watch their reaction! Total loss of all control!

  • Thank goodness for you! You can live your truth and be free. My STBX (covert narc) also plays the good father and all around man of good deeds. I can’t wait to be free of him and live my life. I wonder how my 9 and 11 year old children will take the news (haven’t told them yet until I know terms of divorce) and I feel torn about how to to represent what he did – what parts are they ready to know/ what to keep to myself to help them develop in a healthy way/ while not gaslighting them. Good for you Kfindingmyway – you are MIGHTY! And your kids and grandkids will know it and remember it when they are in a bad situation.

  • K, I guess the price you had to pay for his being a “good father” was his entitlement to have whores on the side. Better get checked for STD’s. I am presuming that the two of you are near 60? Welcome to the club that no one wanted to join…so sorry that you are here like the rest of us.

    Thing is, there was always going to be the day when he got sloppy and found out…it was just a matter of time. This is ALL on him and his devious character. Do NOT allow his blame shifting to send you down a dark rabbit hole. How did you find out?

  • I gave him diamonds, from my own womb, it was not enough, he asked “why not the moon?”

    It’s time for Act II now.

    Gaining a life.

  • Hoo boy. Got dumped by a narc just recently. But the nice thing is that I spotted it early.

    The first time I got the wounded-beyond-belief act was when I disagreed with him about blaming chumps for cheating. SUCH a good early conversation to have.

    Every time he hit a boundary, I got the wounded-beyond-belief act.

    He texted me recently, wondering aloud about how Something So Good could go So Wrong, So Quickly (hint: it was my fault).

    I realised that the reason why was that I have grown bollards/traffic posts inside me, and he ran into them really hard. But he didn’t get to smash my windows and steal all my jewellery.

  • >