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UBT: “I don’t handle rejection well”

Dear Chump Lady,

In my first attempt to date, after many years, I find myself running into yet another cheater! HOW do they find me?? Early on, I knew he was divorced. Then I find out he’s not working, but is somehow managing to make child support payments — but he’s too broke to date. We do fun, free stuff. Watch me bend like a tree in compassionate understanding of his situation and not blame him for not having taken me out to dinner yet…

I knew something was fishy when he didn’t volunteer his phone number even after two dates. I understand this is a red flag; usually meaning the guy is already married or has a girlfriend.

He has lied by omission on several other things, I later find out. I wasn’t going any further until I got some clarification from him. When he finally confessed he WAS seeing someone, I decided to go no contact. He told me the woman is older than him and that she had gotten sick recently. He said she’s gotten old. They still see each other and it’s obvious she’s in love with him since she talked about buying a home together.

Even though he tells me that he doesn’t see himself being with her in the future, he still wants to keep her in his life. She sounds like a very good person (who accepts all of his situation and limitations), but I think he’s trying to cheat on her, because he did not say they had agreed on an open relationship. Of course, he wouldn’t tell me who she is (I may know her from our social circle). This guy must be a serious cake-eater.

After a week of no communication, I get this letter from him:

Hi RDWN,

I hope you are agreeable to breaking the silence. How are you? You’ve been on my mind a lot.

I was feeling pretty shattered in the aftermath of our last discussion. I don’t handle feelings of rejection very well. I’m uncertain how you were impacted emotionally but I imagine maybe you have or had similar hurt feelings. I did clearly notice — but failed to acknowledge — the shock, or pain, or disappointment on your face when I brought up that I am with someone and my desires in regards.

Obviously up until that moment I had chosen to be mostly opaque about that. I feel bad about this unfairness I created and hope that you will forgive me. I had imagined/hoped that you were not looking for a serious exclusive relationship right off the bat, not that I was/am at all against the idea of one developing over time.

Feelings between us felt really right to me and it seemed to me, though you were holding judgment in reserve, that these feeling were shared by you–thus there being a high potential for hurt and disappointment when things turned out to not be as you would have liked them to be. Ditto for me.

I agree that moving forward romantically would not have resulted in creation of a situation close to being totally easy, in fact it would have been complex and complicated. Still for me when I look to the future I see that time is limited and good times largely devoid of older age infirmities being even more limited and I see that inaction is becoming a more costly alternative.

Whatever the future portends I hope that we are able to maintain and further develop the closeness that we were able to thus far achieve.

Fondest regards,

Dipshit

This is probably cookie-cutter cheater-speak hoovering. We’re all in our 60s and it’s appalling that people by this age haven’t figured out how to treat others.

Sincerely,

Really Done With Narcs

Dear RDWN,

Wow, how could you pass up that stellar opportunity to perform the pick dance for lousy free dates? What a charmer this guy is. Are you sure he’s a native English speaker? Or does he always write in Nigerian-scammer-ese?

Yes, he’s a cheater with a chump. (Mystery solved on how those child support payments get made.) You’ve dashed his cake-eater hopes and now he’s got the sadz. (I can hear the defense now: “It’s not cheating if I never bought her dinner!“)

So let’s UBT his pathetic hoover attempt.

I hope you are agreeable to breaking the silence.

Your silence is not agreeable to me.

I hope you will ignore this intentional violation of your boundary.

How are you? You’ve been on my mind a lot.

I’ve been on my mind a lot. What I want, what I need, where I can get more of those buy-one-get-one-free Appleby’s dinner coupons. (Does it have to be my birthday? Are there flyers in the newspaper inserts? Do you have to know the right people?)

How are you? Would you like to share a $7.95 entree? We can take the other meal home for my lunch later. You don’t look very hungry and anyway could stand to lose a few pounds. #heyitsadate

I was feeling pretty shattered in the aftermath of our last discussion.

The loss of my two-free-date investment has left me shattered. Imagine how crushed I’d be had I actually bought you dinner. I’d be a finely ground powder of sorrow. Or tiny shards of regret. Sprinkled over a lonely Appleby’s sundae.

I don’t handle feelings of rejection very well.

I don’t handle adult-ing very well. Don’t you want to make it all better? You should feel like an asshole for rejecting me.

Pay no attention to the chump I’m rejecting, or having rejected you. Cake means never having to say rejection!

I’m uncertain how you were impacted emotionally, but I imagine maybe you have or had similar hurt feelings. I did clearly notice — but failed to acknowledge — the shock, or pain, or disappointment on your face when I brought up that I am with someone and my desires in regards.

Where the fuck are my KIBBLES? I want to see that shock, pain, and disappointment so I know you care. You didn’t pick me dance!

Obviously up until that moment I had chosen to be mostly opaque about that.

I am a cheater.

I’ve chosen to be mostly opaque about that. Only 27 more child support payments to go.

I feel bad about this unfairness I created and hope that you will forgive me.

I hope that you’ll be Plan B. Failing that, um, don’t mention this to my chump.

I had imagined/hoped that you were not looking for a serious exclusive relationship right off the bat, not that I was/am at all against the idea of one developing over time.

I was hoping you’d be a fuckbuddy. Not that I’m at all against the idea of you paying my child support for me. Let’s see what develops over time. I have some utility bills you might be interested in.

Feelings between us felt really right to me and it seemed to me, though you were holding judgment in reserve, that these feeling were shared by you–thus there being a high potential for hurt and disappointment when things turned out to not be as you would have liked them to be. Ditto for me.

Behold this garbled word splatter and infer whatever you want.

I share your feelings. There is high potential for clouds today. Leprechauns are not as you would’ve liked. They should wear tam-o-shanters and ride ostriches. Ditto for me.

I agree that moving forward romantically would not have resulted in creation of a situation close to being totally easy, in fact it would have been complex and complicated.

Come closer so I can create complex romance. #sayyestochaos #itscomplicated

Still for me when I look to the future I see that time is limited and good times largely devoid of older age infirmities being even more limited and I see that inaction is becoming a more costly alternative.

I have a limp dick. But I need a chump devoid of older age infirmities. Time’s a-wasting!

Whatever the future portends I hope that we are able to maintain and further develop the closeness that we were able to thus far achieve.

Whatever the future portends, I hope it involves cake.

Do you have a coupon for that? #achievefreedinner

Ask Chump Lady

Got a question for the Chump Lady? Or a submission for the Universal Bullshit Translator? Write to me at info@chumplady.com. Read more about submission guidelines.
  • Nigerian-scammer-ese?- love it chump lady!

    When you are both native speakers of English and you have to keep rereading a love letter sentence by sentence for meaning- something is terribly wrong!!!! Run away, I have learned communication is not something that improves with time. It is what it is.

    • Nigerian-scammer-ese needs to enter the lexicon! That made me laugh. Awesome one, CL!

      • I really thought he sounded like a scammer too!

        I read this and thought, ” Oh wow, it’s like he said a big pot of nothing. It’s like “read this like you read something romantic in it, that I can deny later.”

    • They all sound they’re trying to be old Enligh gentlement from a Jane Austen novel proclaims his ardent, but reservedly British passion for an intended fiancé. Oh oh oh! Mister Collins from Pride and Prejude! He sounds like Mr. Collins!

      • Yes! Mr. Collins!
        His Charlotte is waiting, go find your Mr. Darcy.
        (We can debate the ins and outs of the book, but for its time Mr. Darcy was a dream man)

  • Dude should be dropped for use if the word “portends” alone. Does he live at a renaissance festival? Does he call you “m’lady?”

    Me thinks the dickweed doth dither too much.

    Plus, if a grown man can’t pay for a date and exchange phone numbers, he’s not dating material. Period.

  • This is a grown adult man writing this garbled gibberish? Holy lord, what a shit-show. Chump Lady, your translation was spot on and had me giggling! Thanks for the morning pick-me-up!

  • Word salad extraordinaire! Love the use of adjectives to leave you guessing what he really means.

    “Still for me when I look to the future I see that time is limited and good times largely devoid of older age infirmities being even more limited and I see that inaction is becoming a more costly alternative.” …. I interpreted this part to be “you are getting old and I am your last sparkly chance!!”

    Dude is definitely seeking a Nurse with a purse.

    • “inaction is becoming a more costly alternative”
      UNM’s translation:
      My dick has hit the “use it or lose it” stage so the price I pay for no sex now will be high. Have sex with me now while Im being supported by the old, dying woman and then later we can reevaluate a possible relationship

    • Yup-nurse with a purse. My friends laugh when I use this expression but it’s very fitting for a certain age bracket of cheaters/users/manipulators seeking somebody with a good heart,some savings and a solid credit score.

    • “Still for me when I look to the future I see that time is limited and good times largely devoid of older age infirmities being even more limited and I see that inaction is becoming a more costly alternative.”

      I’ve read this^^ 5 times. I still can’t glean the meaning of the actual words. As for his intentions, my take is “I want to f#%k as many women as possible before I lose my dick, which is going to happen soon. I don’t want someone my age unless she has money AND all of my fuck buddies must have low expectations of me. Also, I deliberately use vague & inconsistent wording so I can hold your reasonable interpretations against you later. (i.e. You’re the crazy one!)”

      This^^ does not portend well.

      • Thanks, Spitfire. Good deciphering of what he really meant with those intentionally vague words. It fits his actions.

  • Lol! Brilliant waking up to Chump lady’s briliance.
    I gave up dating due to these exact reasons. To many cheater, emotionally availables, financial train wreaks and nut jobs.
    I’d rather grow older alone with cats. For now, I’m sticking to bubble baths, books and fine wine.

    • Same here. I would rather be alone than date what is out there in my age group. Now, there may well be some wonderful men over 60, but I have not had the good fortune to meet one of them. Sorry, if there is no mutuality, I am not interested. I have my books, my gardens and my wonderful rescue dog, who loves to take long walks with me on the beach. Anyone who wants to be part of my life needs to bring his A game. I will never settle for scraps from the table again.

      • Hey Violet, there’s also 1 million chump guys out there taking walks on the beach with their dogs, LOL

        • I know you are right, but how to tell the difference between a genuinely kind person and someone who is just pretending? I was with X for many years and it took me a very long to get to the place I am today. It’s a good place. I’m just not ready to share it with anyone, and I am not sure I ever will be.

          Thanks for reminding me that good guys do exist, though. I think it is foolish to blame others for my X’s behavior, but I am still in a very self-protective mode. Maybe I will find that guy who wants to join me on my walks someday, but in the meantime, I am content with myself.

      • Violet, you and I are in the same age group. You stated my sentiments exactly. I am just not interested in a relationship at this point. Like you, I have not been fortunate to meet those sterling men over sixty, so I am just not playing. Got my own thing to do, no time for BS.

  • Yk the children’s story that ends, “…And the dish ran away with the spoon?”
    Well this one could end, “…And the thesaurus ran away with the loon.”

    ^^^That’s all I gotta say about that^^^

    • My thoughts exactly – how is this man in his 60’s with child support payments? I want to know the age of the woman he pays (wait, no….I mean HIS CHUMP PAYS) the child support payments to!

      • Well my stbx is46. He just had a child with his 26 year old soul mate. I assume this relationship will fail which means he will have support payments well onto his 60s. Asshole.

      • Why? My dad was 47 when my brother was born. Plenty of people, especially men, are having kids in their mid-40s.

        • It’s fine for normal people, but pretty gross for a cheater since there’s about a snowball’s chance in hell that he had the kid on purpose or with a committed partner.

    • (Viagra: Should come with a Black Box “Raw Doggin the Whore” Warning.)

      There are more shocking events than having your magic wand magically regain some of it’s Glory Days. Wander far afield may result in a very expensive “yield.” Your Sunk Costs are no longer a Fallacy: They’re right there on the Support Order.

      There is an inverse correlation between age and grey matter: In this example, the longer the tooth, the more “opaque” the “for soothe.” Verily sir, your transparent “opaque” applies to panty hose, not your viagra inflated wind bag prose.

    • My EX will be 74 when he finishes child support payments for the baby he had with his now ex-AP!!!

  • This is nothing but pure/obvious bullshit/drivel served up by a 60-ish invertebrate/coward terrified/petrified by the thought/idea of dying/expiring alone. And he’s willing/happy to manipulate/fuck over any female chump/victim necessary/required to make sure it doesn’t happen.

    Run/make haste from this man-child/puer aeternus. You are worth so much more than this.

    • UXworld,
      OP here. Thank you for your comment. Your analysis is spot-on regarding what his fears are and what he’s looking for. WisedUp above also noted he was looking for a (YOUNGER) nurse & a purse. I agree, especially when he said his girlfriend had been very active when they first met, but is now getting old and had been sick.

      When he did not offer the reason for why he was divorced, I naturally assumed he was at fault for why the marriage ended. He’s estranged from his family so this must exacerbate his sense of being alone.

      • “When he did not offer the reason for why he was divorced, I naturally assumed he was at fault for why the marriage ended.”

        Yeah, I guess you’re right. It’s a bit of a giveaway. Mr Word Salad would doubtless otherwise have given you a long and windy account of How He Was Wronged, prithee and forsooth. Or mayhap, as the case may be.

        “He’s estranged from his family so this must exacerbate his sense of being alone.”

        Sad sausage. Don’t you go feeling sorry for him now. I sense a quiver. All the estrangement does is pretty much confirm the earlier suspicion. Anyone who knows this guy for a while doesn’t want to be around him. What does that tell you?

    • Oh UX STOP…….It’s 5am and the first time in a loooong time i have tears running down my cheeks at this time of the morning that aren’t sad ones. Thank you/Je vows remercie

      Man, the wicked intellect of my Chumps is mind-blowing.

      No wonder we help each other mend and recover so well.

      • Hi WHK

        Glad you are laughing and not crying hang in there and remember he/she really does suck!

  • Mind numbing word salad. Ugh

    But good for her for bailing as soon as the turds floated to the top. As for him, I see more child support payments and no discernible job in his future with a poor woman holding the bag on a mortgage seeking his address for legal service of a subpoena

  • The ?-speak – it burns! In all seriousness, OP, good on ya for recognizing the nonsense right out of the gate.

  • Reading “Dipshits” hoover-letter immediately gave me the “hurt brain”/confusion feeling I’d get whenever ex and I would “discuss” his “friendships” with all his female co-workers. And it’s the same feeling I got when he read me the Divorce Letter, which I still have in my possession. I have reread the letter numerous times to make sense of it and I’d get the same bad brain feelings all over again.

    These cheaters all write the same when they are lying and trying to justify their behavior and decisions.

    I had the privilege of being able to read the love letters my ex sent to me over 20 years ago before I moved 650 miles to be closer to him. We were “just friends” at first and he was dating someone seriously at the time. I read all his sad sausage woes about his current girlfriend. Yada, yada. RED FLAG!! I fell for it all. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if he had the ‘woe is me’ to many, many women our entire marriage.

    • So sorry you got tricked by such a skillfull asshole, Martha! Have you considered sending the divorce letter in for the UBT, so we can all be pissed at hom together, and laugh together at his ridiculousness?

      • Yes, KarenE, I have considered sending it in. I once started typing it out to Chump Lady and then realized it was so long and didn’t have the energy at the time to continue typing. lol. My niece scanned it into an email a few years back, so maybe she still has a copy of it so I don’t have to type it all out. I’ll ask her if she still has it.

        Yes, I was duped by a master manipulator in training. He’s now a grand master manipulator/predator! 20+ years of preying on women “friends” and conning me with lies upon lies. I keep coming back to Chump Lady to read, so I can keep learning the tricks of the cheaters trade. One of my life goals is to never fall for this ever again! 🙂

        • This is such a major tragedy. You realise all those “heartfelt” messages and hand written letters were on the back of screwing some poor victim over just before you. Therefore i will for ever remember hearing “you stole me from xyz” as a future prediction for what he prob said to next victim. As of it was on ME that he couldn’t help himself…. nothing to do with how irresistible i was all to do with the blame shift !! Can see the funny side now ….

    • Martha,

      Your comment reminds me of all the love letters we sent to each other when were in college in the early 80s. When ex sent his druggie niece to pick up the bulk his crap – didn’t have to balls to come by himself (didn’t let her in my home & had to lug it all onto the front porch). Ironically, he couldn’t stand her because of her drug use. I suppose he picked someone just as low on the scum factor to do his dirty work. Anyway, I stuffed the letters all throughout his crap in a fuck you kind of way. But as I learned here, he probably didn’t have a care in the world when he found them.

    • I remember those ” Bad Brain ” feelings and at the time I didn’t realize that was a common thing for chumps to go through.

      I literally remember the exact moment when I had the thought ” wait a minute ….. if I kick this cheating bitch out of my house …. go no contact and divorce her ass, and I won’t have to suffer through the bad brain feelings anymore “

  • Lots of word salad for breakfast here. At first I thought I hadn’t had enough coffee yet to understand what the hell he was trying to say. Definitely should skip the ‘salad’ of this cheater and move along to find a main meal if you want. Yes I’d prefer to find someone genuine than endure this hell again myself. I’m hoping to fix that picker o’ mine. Since this letter came through the UBT, looks like your picker has had some fine tuning too RDWN!!

  • I’m a cheater magnet, too. Rdwn
    I’ve had two long relationships: they were both cruel and ugly cheaters.
    The second was broke also. I married the first grandiose arrogant narcissist (nobody liked him), as a byproduct he wasn’t only a cheater but also a sick gambler.
    The second cheater was the opposite of the first cheater, he was sweet, cheerful and humble, (everybody liked him), a very covert narcissist, skillful liar, as a byproduct he was addicted to hookers, dozens and dozens. I found out after years of raging, humiliation and financial damage and even now that I have proof nobody believes me.
    I never want to date again of course, too painful. I can’t rely on the fact that I got wiser and stronger. I’m afraid that developing boundaries isn’t enough to protect me. I can see it with my mother, my sister, my three adult children.
    I should be really done with narcs but I’m still surrounded.

    • Merrychump, I’m sorry no one believes you. WE BELIEVE YOU here at Chump Nation!! My family and a few friends who know me well believe me, but the church we attended together and my exes family and co-workers all believe his lies. Why wouldn’t they? He started a smear campaign behind my back before I even knew what was going on and he’s also such a “nice guy”, so of course they don’t know who he really is behind the scenes. I’m with you about not wanting to date again, because of the pain. I’m just working on me now and if someone shows up in my life that seems interesting, I may reconsider. But ANY red flag or ANY lie, even just one, and I’m done and running away! (((HUGS))) to you. 🙂

      • Thank you, Martha. The extent of his infidelity, the lies, stealing my money, belittling me are so in contrast with his angel face that it was unbelievable even when I found chats, pictures, dates, and related expenses. My children are still in denial I guess. The OW involved were so many all behind the scenes. How can evil plans be carried out so successfully without being caught for so long? Thank you again and Hugs to you too.

      • Dating after being chumped is not for the faint of heart. Lots of one and dones.

        It’s like the universe is testing you to see if you learned your lesson’s.

        I went five years post Dday dating nobody, then gave myself permission to date. And it’s an interesting and comical thing to get back into. My friends warned me that it’s a bloodbath out there.

        I ended up back with my childhood girlfriend who also became a chump at the same time I did.

        • I agree that it is a lot of one-and-done, but that’s OK.

          I think for me, a big part of it is that I just don’t care enough to really get to the bottom of anything that seems a little fishy. Like if someone does something that is… not even quite a red flag, but like something that I feel like I would need to ask some questions to get some clarification, I just give up.

          I went out with one guy who had a story that was like: He had filed from divorce from his second wife, but she still lived in the house in another part of the state, so he would go up there on the weekends to see the kids, but lived in a rented place down by our neck of the woods during the week, and they were breaking up because she ignored him all the time… etc etc. I just remember sitting there thinking ‘Ugh – this could be legit, or this could be every cheater’s MO ever”… and I didn’t care enough to find out. I just walked away.

          You really do have to be able to just walk away and say “I don’t know what the hell is going on there, but I’m going to pass”. And sure some of them might come back around to get some kibbles, but you just have to stick to your NC.

      • Hot to agree…reading the experience s on this site was enough validation that i wasnt going completely mad…such carbon copy experience s. ! Still hurts though to get that sinking feeling that you are seen as a bitter loon in contrast to liar extrordinaire who- as someone mentioned – started character assisinating you long before. It wasn’t even outrageous character stuff just hinting i was controlling. ..a spender and social climber (all projection btw) but just enough to get everyone fawning over him during the divorce (he rushed through before he announced AP who was waiting in the wings) so because he left me with exactly $200 and 3 kids to look after that played into his crafted narrative that i had spent it all and he was desperately trying to get away . Bastard

    • Merry

      Fixing the picker after a covert takes much work. You are a giver; raise the bar and have expectations. You are selfless; become more selfish. Applying this to all relationships is difficult yet it is necessary to set boundaries and develop more authentic reciprocal relationships.

      • Thank you, Doingme. Once I used to think boundaries would diminish spontaneity. I used to set them and then quickly adjust me according to the needs of my family. My father was a giver/fixer/flexible caring person. I was so joyful for that kind of unconditional love, it still gives strength. It’s a kind of love too good to be true, I realize nobody reciprocates or appreciates it. It’s going to be tough when people will know about this second divorce: cheated on for the second time, everybody will wonder what’s wrong with me. Thank you, Doing me for the advice.

        • Hey Martha, me too, about two times and a blame-shifter who spreads lies. Here’s what I’m doing to dry up the “people will know / everybody will wonder what’s wrong with me” problem: I give them no information. None. I don’t talk about it at all. If somebody brings up any topic related to X-hole, I turn it off immediately.

          The result is, people then slowly see me, hear me, I become a real person, and the other stuff (all his lies), becomes a non-reality.

    • Merrychump,
      I seem to be stuck in the same pattern and that means I have to be hyper-vigilant in vetting everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE) I meet. For me, I know part of it is due to my FOO issues, where both were parents outrageously abusive/insane.

      This guy, the letter-writer, is a covert operator. Everyone in our social group thinks he’s a nice guy! He’s fooled many people with his smooth guile. In a way, I don’t feel so bad for not seeing who he was initially. The truth is revealed over time and I just need to get out as soon as I see the signs of trouble.

      • Honey, mine was/is the same. Both the guys I have dated since my late 30s, actually – they seemed different on the outside, but they turned out to be surprisingly similar.

        LOVELY guys, who everyone thought were WONDERFUL. Why on earth were they still single and over 40?

        Both of them:
        – are in workaholic ‘caring’ professions;
        – are very visible churchgoers;
        – are outwardly very olde-worlde polite, eg. opening the car door, paying for dinner;
        – are in enmeshed relationships with covert incestuous families;
        – have relationships with women that overlap;
        – have relationships with women where she is there to fill a gap in an otherwise quite busy life, rather than to be a partner in that life (what I call the bookcase motif – the first one used even buy me books, so I really was like a bookcase for that awkward corner in his life);
        – are, I suspect, women-haters deep down, due to smothering females in FOO;
        – have covert gay tendencies;
        – have really bad boundaries and are people-pleasers who cannot say no – and yet who managed to say no to me, so they could avoid conflict with their smother-female family members;
        – are utterly complicit in their own unhappiness;
        – have psychiatric histories, mostly with chronic depression;
        – are most comfortable in a small and very secure clique/fortress of ‘rightness’.

        If you asked me who my dream man is, I would not exactly write down this list, would I? And yet, there it is.

        And like you, it’s caused by FOO issues with outrageous parents. So yeah, I know what you mean – being single starts to look really good.

        I felt terrible because I felt I had been fooled all over again, but at least this time I spotted it early, so I like to chalk that up as progress.

        • LolaG, being able to spot problems earlier and to get away from problem people sooner IS progress, especially for those who came from an upbringing that did not provide good role modeling of what healthy, sane, assertive behavior is. Good for you!

        • What a spot on list. I too thought the same smothering mothering FOO issues. At one point he even denied being a mysoginist….unpromted so it sounded like he was outing himself in the process. It stands to reason if your own mother figure rejected you by non attachment frombthe start of your life you are going to harbour unconcious feelings of hate towards the next close female in your life.

      • That’s right Really Awn (OP), the truth is revealed slowly over time. It is risky to date or to form relationships, because you will find manipulators and other sneaky sorts. The only way to know if they are legit is to spend time with them. Just like you did. When you find out that there is nothing good in there, you leave. Just like you did.

        Now I have a bullshit detector. It has an alarm, kind of like the smoke alarm, that goes off around manipulators. But guess what? It goes off inconveniently around people who are well-respected, who get their misdeeds covered up and explained. People who have minions who look away. Then what am I to do? Tell everyone to evacuate?

        Being able to see the sneaky deeds of others is not exactly a super-ability that one seeks out.

        • “around people who are well-respected, who get their misdeeds covered up and explained. People who have minions who look away” (true in many toxic workplaces)

          Thanks, QueenMother, for your post. I’m in the same boat! I’ve had to sift through a lot of people in my adult life; have said “no” quite often.

          In more recent years, I find I’m running into more sophisticated, covert narcissists/sociopaths so it takes longer for me to figure them out. It just seems there a LOT of people like that out there!

          I enjoy their intelligence and they have good social skills – often fun people to be around with; but it can take years for me to find out how much they’ve been lying to me and uncover their hidden other life. Since I don’t think and behave like them, I’m in a major disadvantage.

  • As a connoisseur of CheaterSpeak (my ex has given me tons of practice), I have to say I particularly admire the expert use of the False Equivalancy. They were both so upset about by ‘what happened’, by ‘how things turned out! Her rejecting him (because he deliberately misled her!) is an equal offence to his deliberately misleading her! Everyone should just forgive everyone, and cake-eating should proceed!

    Further proof that narcs never grow up, never learn, never become decent people.

    • Good point, KarenE! False equivalency is a way of dodging the responsibility of the wrong he committed and then making me somehow wrong for rejecting him for that. Wow, that’s really twisting things.

  • My mental return letter.
    We can not be together because you are not enough for me.
    You aren’t rich enough
    You aren’t good looking enough
    You are not smart enough
    You aren’t educated enough
    You aren’t kind enough
    You aren’t responsible enough
    You aren’t mature enough
    Our break up has given me peace, joy and contentment. I don’t think it would be fair, to continue to date you, when I’m embarrassed by your behavior. Any future contact will end up in the delete/trash file.
    Goodbye

    Then mentally laugh knowing he is having a temper tantrum.

    • Meh, I just would have gone with:

      “All the passive-voice word salad in this letter could be reduced to this: ‘I intentionally deceived you about the other relationships in my life because I thought you might rightfully peg me as a manipulative, unfaithful user if you knew the truth. I will not change my behavior but I am willing to lie to you about maybe being willing to pretend to change, because I would very much like you to continue to be a chump I can take advantage of. I will never stop being this self-centered and dishonest.’ Needless to say, I’m not interested in your offer. Never contact me again.”

      That being said, it’s not like reading it will give some epiphany that will show him what a shit he is, so a simple “I am not interested in having anything further to do with you. Never contact me again.” would suffice.

  • Wow! I feel a little dumber for having read that.

    Using complex jargon to obscure whatever meaning is trying to be conveyed; typical manipulator speak!

    Is he playing scavenger hunt? Its your job to deceipher clues and win him as the prize?

    Thank god for the UBT, my brain just can’t handle trying to decipher that BS.

    I’ve learned from years of being with a cheater … if an interaction leaves you more confused than you were before, stop trying to decipher the hidden meaning in the message! People who care about you don’t play games about their relational intentions.

    • “if an interaction leaves you more confused than you were before, stop trying to decipher the hidden meaning in the message! People who care about you don’t play games about their relational intentions.”

      Well said, Got-a-Brain!

    • Love the last sentence. It’s a good mantra. I wish I knew it on my first 2 attempts at relationships…

  • Lol! Talk about gaslighting!

    I love how he says he was “mostly opaque” about the woman he’s cheating on! This is cheater speak for “I hid the fact that I’m involved with someone else and want you as a side piece for much cake.”

    Here’s another Big Red Flag: “I feel bad about this unfairness I created and hope that you will forgive me.” Notice you should forgive him because of his feelings? There’s no apology there. He’s not humbling himself, acknowledging that he lied and cheated. He tells you how he feels and then wants you to forgive him because he has teh sadz.

    Keep the No Contact.

    And check out therapy, if you haven’t already. One of my friends spent a decade married to a narcissist, and her therapist specialized in people who’d had relationship trauma. A lot of what they went through involved boundary setting, and some dry runs on online dating sites so that my friend had to think hard about what she was looking for in a partner, and what was a deal breaker.

    It sounds as if you’re still working on your picker. Don’t give up, just because you’re in your 60s! You absolutely deserve more in your life than merely “settling.”

    • Thanks, kb, for your encouragement. I won’t settle, even when I’m 84. I have my friends and hobbies. I have to admit though, I sure missed being held and kissed – something my platonic pals can’t do for me. I also know the poor cost/benefit outcome of being with someone so disordered, good kisser or not!

  • Wow, CL. Having tried three times now to get through this guy’s letter, I’m amazed that the UBT didn’t seize up and crash.

    RDWN: the fact that you submitted this letter to the UBT tells me your picker is healing. You even say it yourself: “I knew something was fishy.” That’s awesome. Trust your gut. Learning to trust our instincts is a huge part of finding our mightiness.

    XO

    • Thanks, Meh or Bust. I wanted to stick around long enough to confirm what my gut told me, as in exercise to truly trust myself. I’m positive there’s more he hasn’t told me but I’m satisfied I know enough to stay away.

  • Run RUN as fast as you can from this saggy balled cheapskate cheater!! There’s nothing worse than a sad wrinkled smelly old cheater!!! Seriously run. Change your phone number and don’t look back.

    Oh yeah. Fix your fucking picker already. You’re too old for this shit!!!

    • LOL !!!!

      Thank you Anon — This describes what James Bond has become — a sad wrinkly smelly old cheater — saggy balled — hahahahaha!!!

      he thought he was so hot, so sexy, so irresistible — now he’s stuck with Miss Halatosis, annoying laugh and inane conversation — whatever !!!

      • My pleasure QueenMother!!! But seriously these old cheaters take their clothes off for complete strangers??? Do they not have full length mirrors??? Have they never seen that naked ass as it walks out the room???

        Saggy chests, saggy, smelly balls, yes HALITOSIS, sagging ass and of course thinning hair line!!! Yeah ok it’s all acceptable if one isn’t a disordered asshole, it’s even kinda cute and introducing a little easy dental care takes care of that old mouth halitosis. That’s what marriage partners do!!

        But when it’s a character ordered cheater, male or female because it all applies, it’s pretty laughable!!! I’d personally have to have a court order to take my clothes off for a stranger, just sayin….

        Yeah, sexy alright, sexy as pink eye!!!

  • I’m guessing this guy is totally married…

    Probably in Wreckoncilliation

    With a poor beleaguered wife in marriage police mode

    And regular marriage counseling appointments

    (which dipshit distills down into ‘child support’)

  • I’ve learned something from this letter: NEVER go on 2nd date with a guy who can’t buy anything on first date!
    Yeah, I’m getting older, wiser and want better dates.

    • “I’ve learned something from this letter: NEVER go on 2nd date with a guy who can’t buy anything on first date!”

      I had one coffee date with a guy, where, upon my arrival at Starbucks a few minutes before our agreed-upon meeting time, I found that he’d already arrived, ordered his drink, and was sitting with it waiting for me. No offer to purchase my $3 beverage. That right there struck him out as far as I was concerned. Of course, by the end of the date, it was clear that this guy was a major narc and a nut, anyway.

      • My very first date was the same…I bought my own coffee. At lease we ended up at a starbucks; for a minute he suggested some shithole…there I was in a great outfit driving my Mercedes to my first date, I was simply NOT going to the nasty coffee shop he suggested.

        I made some stupid mistakes on my first couple of dates, but it prepared me for meeting Col Greatguy. He could afford nice dinners and he gave me his phone number, so those 2 suggestions are true. I later learned that because he had been such a long term bachelor, our new dating sent his work (Wash DC military intelligence…I was likely vetted in some manner) into a flutter with suggestions from all the ladies at work about where to take me and everyone asking for updates on the budding romance.

        • What!!?

          Unicronnomore — that sounds like a deal worth hanging around for. Keep us informed — we’re your posse.

          • My story is sprinkled about here…1st husband was a covert narc cheater who was awful for years and it wasnt until after he died that I learned he was actually a SERIAL cheater (Which CL theorizes is actually a norm, not an aberration which I agree with).

            I had dated Col Greatguy 28 years earlier and after H1.0 died, my dad found Col GG within driving distance of me and we struck up a romance. He is not perfect, but he is a very good man. Honest, faithful & the only 50ish successful guy on the planet willing to date a woman his same age. He proposed in Turkey then we sailed the Aegean Sea, honeymooned in Germany. He is paying my tuition for me to complete the education that sat dormant for 30 yrs.

  • Really Done With Narcs: You were absolutely correct to go No Contact with this shyster. For the love of Pete, keep it that way and don’t waste another minute of your life trying to figure this guy out. RUN!! ?‍♀️?‍♀️?‍♀️?‍♀️

  • Ahhhh. I just love a good belly laugh while drinking my coffee. Thanks CL. Nomar had me cracking up too.

    Every now and then I think about dating (I’m 54) and then I read something like this and think “nope, I’m good”.

    • Same! I have friends out there dating and the stories they tell me. smh Lots of broken people out there. Lots of abusers and narcs.

    • The dating out there at 50+ is super hard. We should have posting day for post-dating stories. I am sure there are some nice guys over 50 out there, I just haven’t run into any of them. Unicornnomore’s story gives me hope, but sometimes that is even scary.

  • One of the strange gifts being cheated and conned gave me was a spidey sense about safe people. I have changed my phone number numerous times, blocked people and simply said: Never contact me again -at the first whiff of anything sketchy.

    Perhaps I have overreacted at times, but that is okay. One thing I have learned about people and their intentions is that there are no mixed messages. The Universe does not give them, and neither do people who have good character.

    If someone wants to see you, they are calling, contacting you with no hassle or mystery. There are no odd explanations about unavailability, cell phone problems, long business trips for their retail job.

    When I just started judging people entirely on their actions, and not their words, a level of clarity descended that I would have given my right arm for 20 years ago. Maybe I will end up alone, but I will not be someone’s chump.

    • In big flashing lights by far the biggest life lesson I have learnt is ‘to judge by actions not words’ if I had known this 20 years ago my life would be different. I tell every sucker and chump I meet this pearl of wisdom, in the hope that it ignites a realisation in them.
      Knowledge is power and when we know better we do better.

    • You are a bit too strict and I’m saying it thinking of myself – always being late. It’s a struggle with myself and I got better, but not perfect.
      Still, people like you make me ponder why exactly I am not on time. It takes me to a dread feeling but cannot figure out the origin of it. I’m working with myself to make each day as perfect as I can. Work in progress…

      • Maybe you have social anxiety? I know I go back to the mirror and check myself a lot, and sometimes make myself late. I also do not allow enough time to get ready. It is a type of procrastination. Which is a self defeating behavior that some state is rooted in perfectionism but I think I can just be lazy at times.

        That is not a deal breaker- someone being a few minutes late. They could have IBS! I am speaking to be red alarm behaviors: not calling for a few days and then having weird reasons, acting odd about normal things, like sharing their address or where they live.

        I did block a man who injected snarky, biting sarcasm into simple questions. I asked him: What do you feed your dog? (Because researching dog food is one of my obsessions) and he responded: “Food. DUH!”
        And I thought…..No.

        It is a gut feeling of respect and honesty- is this person being straight with me? Is this person being duplicitous? Are they in anyway sketchy?

        Chucking out someone because of a quirk (putting hot sauce on their peaches) is not what I mean. I will be a lonely sad cupcake for sure.

        I mean- People who do not add up, and we do mental gymnastics, analyze their idiotic behavior with our friends to make sense of it, make huge leaps of insanity to MAKE them add up. Done with that dead end.

        • I agree with and understood what you meant, This is Not a Test.

          What you said about that guy who made snarky remarks — the guy I dated before my ex-husband — before we actually started dating — we’d talk on the phone to get to know each other better (this was in the early 1980’s). He was a senior in high school and I already graduated. One day he told me he learned that Ulaanbaatar is the capital of Mongolia. The next day he asked me, “What is the capital of Mongolia?” I didn’t remember, because I didn’t care AND I was concentrating more on trying to get to know him better instead of memorizing for a test! After I told him that I didn’t remember, he said “I just told you that yesterday and you don’t remember?” He was mocking my intelligence. That was a gigantic red flag, but I didn’t see it at the time. My intelligence and pretty much everything about me was right after the love bombing part of our relationship was over — I dated this guy for four years and he treated me almost the as my ex did for over 20 years! A part of this whole thing has been learning about red flags and trusting my gut right away.

        • I’m totally with you. People that don’t add up are red flags in themselves.
          It’s interesting that you chose this nickname: “This is not a test”. There are disordered people out there who TEST people. They test their boundaries to see how far they can take them. It makes them feel important if the other person would lower their guard for them. Real creeps! Real red flags! Stay away!

          I learned to trust my gut feeling. Whenever I get a chocking feeling in my chest or throat, I know the other person is simply not a good association for me. I try to listen to my inner being, try to understand why do I feel some vulnerability and then work on it.

          • My last one accused me twice of setting conversational traps for him to trip him up.

            I didn’t, but it’s worth storing that one away for future reference as a guide to one of his favourite hobbies.

            This guy really fancied himself as a brainiac, and liked to try to bully people intellectually.

      • My tendency toward lateness (though much improved) is that I am perpetually juggling too many things. If I could leave early, I think, “but yes, with that extra 5 minutes I could complete task X..” Then, if something comes up (unexpected traffic), I end up being late.

        Some people have also proposed that those of us who are (a) regularly late, and/or (b) have time management issues may have undiagnosed attention deficit.

        • I had lateness issues and I have diagnosed ADHD. What broke me of it, was simply someone saying, ‘Your actions are causing other people stress. If you commit to a time, then what is more important those extra 5 mins that you wasted being early or your reputation as being a reliable person who keeps her word?’

          That was 15 years ago. I’ve never been ‘late’ since. Unless it’s something that only affects me, then I still get sloppy.

        • Tempest, you explain exactly why I struggle with lateness. Not “on-timeness.” Lateness! I am always trying to jam in just another minute of cleaning, reading, weeding, marking student papers, laundry, etc. And I never think it takes as long to get somewhere as it really does.

          I’ve made progress but I have a ways to go with this one.

          • I used to have that problem and I managed to get through it by setting a minimum time to leave in order to get from Pt A to Pt B. If I know I have to be somewhere, I don’t do anything other than leave for my destination at that certain time. It definitely worked for me!

            • Good idea. I am pretty good about that in situations in which the train or other transport will leave me behind. But I need to do that every day.

    • Nope not too strict at all. You can never be ‘too strict’ with your own personal boundaries. They are your boundaries, therefore they are just right.

      • An interesting forum thread broke out not long ago about people’s Deal Breakers, and it struck me that many traits people listed as deal-breakers would rule out potentially high quality dating partners. I do think we can think, “I will NEVER tolerate X or Y,” where X and Y are annoyances in other people rather than indicators of overall character.

        I myself would MUCH prefer a person of strong integrity who routinely left their coffee cups lying around to a fastidious neat person who had less integrity.

        • Tempest,
          I agree: integrity first, habits (some that can be changed) second. This is the correct order of priority when choosing people.

        • My point was that for you leaving coffee cups might not be a deal breaker but to me it is. Simply because I can’t live with that and I’m fine and happy to be alone. So I’m not going to compromise my current happiness to wait and see if this deal breaker is something that I can life with or not.

          Now, if you’re miserable and looking for someone desperately but keeping finding reasons why you won’t date, that’s another issue.

          I lived with a hoarders and slobs my whole life who refused to respect that they shared a space with other people. It was an integrity issue. So to you someone who continued to leave out coffee cups might be something you think can be changed or overlooked, but to me it’s a personality issue about respectfulness of sharing space as adults and each time I see that cup, it upsets me.

          Therefore, my boundaries might be strict to someone else, but they aren’t their boundaries. They are mine and will always be just right. I hope I’m making sense!

          • makes total sense. someone that cares about your happiness would not continue doing this after you explained it as you did with the reason. I certainly wouldn’t do it to you even as a friend.

        • Of course Tempest, integrity and character are what defines somebody.
          That nobody is perfect, that they have their own idiosyncrasies, it’s a different topic.
          However, if someone does things in spite of you, with the intention of pissing you off….then you have something else on your hands. A passive aggressive individual who is testing you. It just takes some level of awareness to spot these people.
          I realised a bunch of things my XH has been doing on purpose. I’m pretty sure now he gets to practice them with his private babysitter….lucky her!

          • @enraged, ah yes. And those things that when you complain about them to other people they are like ‘oh that’s no big deal!’

            One of my XH’s very annoying, very obvious passive-aggressive acts was that he was always always late picking me up from somewhere. I had a tooth pulled and sat in the waiting room, drugged up, for 20 mins waiting for him. But it was traffic! It could happen to anyone!

            I got off a redeye transatlantic flight exhausted and had to wait 45 mins for him because he got an important work call. It happens!

            I waited in a shady train station, I missed broadway shows, etc, etc, etc. There were always excuses as to why he was late. And when I got upset, he made me feel like I was an awful person for never understanding him because I only expected perfection.

            So… I got myself to a point where IDGAF if maybe I do expect too much. Because if expecting an adult male, who is your partner, to be on time and not make you wait in uncomfortable situations or miss things you are looking forward to is looking for perfection, then I’d rather be alone.

          • ah, yes, the “in spite of,” or rather “to spite” you, behaviors. Anyone who sets up even a subtly adversarial relationship with me, be it romantic or friendship, gets the boot. Been there, done that.

          • I think one important thing to differentiate in a person are things he/ she cannot help themselves with. Being late, being neat or a bit sloppy – things they try and struggle to improve upon. Is it something YOU can live with – the not so perfect aspects of someone? Things done intentionally, to test my boundaries are the deal breakers for me!
            What about you?

        • My STBX was the fastidious neat person with no integrity. I am trying to convince myself that I could live with someone who forgets to put the toilet seat down if he shows that he loves me in other ways and won’t cheat on me.

          Right now I don’t feel like dating again because I am afraid I will demand all of STBXs good qualities without any of the bad and I am not sure that person exists.

          • If he is great in other ways buy one of those Japanese toilet seats that close themselves and open as you approach. I love mine! It also cleans automatically between uses.

            • What you just described is waaaaaay better than a unicorn. Especially if you have sons, like I do!

        • I have deal breakers for co-habitation that are very fussy because, hey, I’m 65 and done being a house maid for a man who won’t pick up after himself. I take no chances on that! But a man can have, let’s say, looser housekeeping standards and still be a great person to be in a relationship with. When you’re young, there’s that urge to nest. We older folks look for peace and comfort. Dating a great person and coming home to my own house–perfect.

  • My eyes started rolling a few lines in. My cheating ass clown would write similar dribble only it wouldn’t be so long, as you know writing is boring and takes concentration and it would be a txt message with a few emojis at the end. Word salad with a dressing of mind fuck !
    Funny to read it being slaughtered by CL as always…

  • “I knew something was fishy when he didn’t volunteer his phone number even after two dates. I understand this is a red flag; usually meaning the guy is already married or has a girlfriend.”

    And this is where we all can stop cheaters from getting into our lives too deeply. We know the red flags. Stop giving these jerks the benefit of the doubt. We owe them nothing.

  • He had me at, “Obviously up until that moment I had chosen to be mostly opaque about that.”

    Old narc cheaters at the end of their game are so pathetic. So much to overlook; all those nasty limitations and situations that happen.

    • Doingme, I was a bit amused at this new way of saying, “I lied” when saw the phrase, “chosen to be mostly opaque..” A few minutes after I read the whole letter, I broke into laughter and shook my head at the absurdity of it all.

      Humor and laughter is so healing. ChumpLady and the folks at CN have helped me so much with truth and humor. Thanks so much.

  • Thanks for the laugh, great way to start the day. I feel bad that she even needed it to be UBT but as always ChumpLady you are spot on. I hope she stays at Meh and don’t ever give him a single Kibble. We are stronger and more wise than this. We know the red flags and we can stop them in their tracks. We don’t deserve to ever be chumped again. Once or in my case twice is more than enough for one lifetime.

  • My head! I’m not gonna lie…I stopped reading his letter half way cause though the words were in English I could not knit them together to make sense. But I see I was not alone in this. Poor ubt.
    I don’t know what love is anymore but I’m baffled at what people are willing to settle for. Is it all to avoid being ‘alone”? I don’t get it.

    • I’ve known several people who have admitted they can’t be alone (men & women) so, yes, it really is about taking anyone just so they won’t be by themselves.

      I’ve spent years alone, have many interests, and am quite emotionally independent but I’ll admit this isn’t my first choice. I hope to find that wonderful partner some day, but I don’t know if it will ever happen for me.

      However, bad relationships in the past have taught me that not being in a relationship is way better than being in a bad one that depletes me and makes me crazy. This is an easy decision for me now.

      • Thanks for offering an explanation. I love my own company. I love the peace and my internal dialogue.

        What is it that they fear? What is so bad about living on your own?

        • Mandie, I think it’s primal .. something from home when we grew up with our families. Perhaps a sense of security to have another person around and instead of an all-quiet place.

          I’ve been single for decades now, but I recall having to make a big adjustment after my divorce. I lived alone for the first time in my life (after family home, roommates then marriage). I had to leave the TV on so I could fall sleep in my own apartment. It took almost a year for me to get comfortable being by myself.

          Now I love having my very own private space and, while I can manage a visitor staying for a few days, I wouldn’t want a roommate.

      • “However, bad relationships in the past have taught me that not being in a relationship is way better than being in a bad one that depletes me and makes me crazy”. THIS!!!

        I get lonely, really lonely but I know that being lonely single will never, ever, be as bad as being lonely when you are married.

        • Being lonely when you are married. This.

          Being single at age 57 is daunting but nothing could possibly feel as empty as being lonely when you’re married.

  • Imagine if this guy put as much energy into filling out some job applications or writing his resume? Nah – not enough time left for working cake.

    I fear for the women (and men) who haven’t fixed their pickers. You know, the ones who are out there dating people who have “trails of tears” behind them and yet now WITH YOU they will have the mind-clearing, soul cleansing, epiphany and CHANGE. While I know that I can survive that now, I would rather walk barefoot across cut glass before I would date anyone with so much as ONE RED FLAG.

    I’m watching my stepdaughter sort through so much pain because of Mr. Sparkles. She is 19 and absolutely terrified to date, lest she meet someone predatory like her own Dad. She is living with him right now – well him and his latest victim. After a year of dating, this 44 yo woman is moving Mr. Sparkles (49yo, abandoned 3 families/kids, twice divorced, BROKE) into her home (which she owns) and my stepdaughter can’t bear the thought of living with them and watching her Dad abuse this new woman like her abused her mom and subsequently me (stepmom). I’m taking her to see a counselor today and am hoping she’ll get the support she needs to learn how to set boundaries and know what a healthy relationship looks like.

    Being single isn’t always fun. At least not for me. I’m comfortable alone, but I do miss having a man to lean on and share life with every day. Granted – I didn’t have that with Mr. Sparkles, but I still believe it exists.

    But, I promise you Chump Nation, I will not be a chump again. SO… RDWN, I hope you’ve gone No Contact with this fuckwit. I hope you spend a little more time with yourself and getting some better boundaries in place ‘cuz this guy shouldn’t have made it as far as he did. I’m glad you got out ok.

    • Can your step daughter go flatting with friends her own age? She sounds old enough to move out of her on her own. It would also be a good experience to share a house with 3-4 other young people and be exposed to a range of personalities. Not to mention managing her own money, budget, housework and chores roster with the others.

      • Just what I was thinking kiwichump.

        If the funds are available,keep her in counseling so she can discuss and practice healthy boundaries and relationships with the therapist whilst becoming an independent young adult.

    • ICanSeeTheMeh – Thanks for being an awesome stepmom and helping out your stepdaughter. Being a stepmom is often thankless, and I hope that your stepdaughter knows how wonderful and caring you are.

  • Chump nation,
    I received this text from a friend today and feel all chumps should have some one to tell them this!

    Happy Independence Day!:

    This is how I see it.,, cheater made a conscious decision to put his “hapiness” above all i.e. his marriage, his family and especially his kids. It’s a shame that he cannot own his actions and declare that he is a douche bag and take his lumps: Feelingit gets/deserves half of all the marital assets. Don’t listen to his bullshit. You are a great mom, friend, daughter, sister?

  • Really Done,
    This aged cheating loser is looking for a new nurse and purse because his current one has ‘infirmities’ due to …. aging!

    I love that you are NoContact with this creep. Thanks for providing the UBT with great material. Keep No Contact, there’s no one of value behind the curtain. Enjoy the Holiday tomorrow. The responses from CL&CN have provided a lot of humor to my day.

    Xoxo and stay mighty,
    ANC

    • Thanks, ANC. After seeing how he treats his loyal, loving girlfriend, I can be SURE he’ll dump me if I were to get sick and old, not to his liking. He’s monstrous.

      Wish you a great July 4th holiday, too!

  • “Then I find out he’s not working, but is somehow managing to make child support payments — but he’s too broke to date.”

    Unless you’ve actually seen receipts from the child support agency, I would assume he is lying about making the child support payments. Probably has huge arrears, however.

    This letter and scenario remind me so much of my ex.

  • >>>>>I was hoping you’d be a fuckbuddy. Not that I’m at all against the idea of you paying my child support for me. Let’s see what develops over time. I have some utility bills you might be interested in.<<<<<

    Goooooaaaallllll!!!!!!

    Absolute gold, Chump Lady!

    • Ditto!

      Tracy called that one with laser accuracy!

      I’m nobody’s fuckbuddy / mistress .. ever.

  • No one brings it like CL when she cranks out the UBT. This is very funny and a great send-up of a cheater who tried his act on the wrong person. She saw those red flags flying.

    But on a more serious side, this guy gives us some insight into just how aware most cheaters are that they are deliberately “creating” what he calls unfairness.

    When chumps ask about red flags, they are often not as loud and obvious as the ones this jackass is flying. He has kids. He’s not working. Yet somehow he’s making support payments? No mention of any pesky arrears… If a person who should be working is able-bodied, and not on unemployment because he was laid off or part of a downsizing, don’t date that person. Now, I’m not talking about SAHPs, who may be living from child support, spousal support, or other resources. A single mother who has figured out how to do that is mighty. But someone who owes child support should be flipping burgers or stocking shelves somewhere before spending 24/7 looking for a chump to add to his support. I knew a guy who lived like for years, with a stable of women who knew about him but not about each other. And all of them were giving him money, most of which he snorted up his nose. People should have visible means of support. It’s fine if someone is struggling financially or has limited resources. The point is whether the person is taking responsibility for his or her own needs.

    Another red flag is how he devalues the other woman (the one RDWN knows about): “the woman is older than him and that she had gotten sick recently. He said she’s gotten old. They still see each other and it’s obvious she’s in love with him since she talked about buying a home together.” Notice that he says she’s old and sick but he’s still seeing her because…money. Note that the older woman is talking about “buying a home together, ” although she is the only one with money. So she will pay. He would get 1/2 if they marry and split. Or she kicks him out after a couple of D-Days. But the devaluation here is sickening. He could just as easily say he is dating a lovely woman and it got serious enough that they considered buying a home. But if a man devalues someone to you, he will devalue you to someone else.

    Finally, here are a couple of sentences that show how cheaters are fully aware of what they are doing:
    1. “I did clearly notice — but failed to acknowledge — the shock, or pain, or disappointment on your face when I brought up that I am with someone and my desires in regards.” He noticed that she was shocked that he was cheating. And that he deliberately “failed to acknowledge” that shock. He also saw “pain,or disappointment.” No response to her feelings until she yanked the kibbles. This sort of thing is similar to the way other predators test potential victims. Had she spackled or minimized, the cheater would be on to the next stage. And notice how he, in defiance of the rules of logic and syntax, fails to finish the phrase “and my desires in regards.” He doesn’t finish because he can’t. In regards to what? Signing you up as Plan B? Having sex with you on the side? Cheating on this other woman?
    2. “I had chosen to be mostly opaque about that.” He chose to hide this important information. Manipulator, liar, gaslighted.
    3. “I feel bad about this unfairness I created.” He knows he “created” an unfair situation, where the playing field tilts his way and against RDWN and whoever else he’s seeing. Two uses of “I” in one sentence but no mention of those whom he treated unfairly. Syntactic red flag.
    4. “…there being a high potential for hurt and disappointment when things turned out to not be as you would have liked them to be.” He knows what he is and the damage he can do, the “high potential for hurt and disappointment” when RDWN and the other woman/women have their D-Days.

    So there you have it. He lays out just how cold, calculating, deliberate and selfish cheating is. For those chumps in reconciliation with a cheater who regrets getting caught but shows no true remorse or for those sitting on the fence trying to spot a unicorn in the forest where the timid creatures live, here’s how cheaters thing. They know they are doing terrible things. They do not care. And they will do them again.

    • LAJ, I always enjoy your contribution here on CL. Your post contains some excellent analysis.

      As I listened to him speak of past relationships (this was during the big reveal, blowout confessions on the last date), I noted his lack of empathy for how he was affecting -hurting- the people around him. The letter above further confirmed my observation.

      “They know they are doing terrible things. They do not care. And they will do them again.” This is what all good, chumpy hearts need to know. I’ve been with people who have proven this truth many times over.

      Thanks very much, LAJ!

      • Oh, how they talk about former marriage and long-term relationships is a huge opportunity to identify someone who is toxic. Jackass used to tell a story about how the honeymoon of his first marriage was ruined because of the car he picked to drive. But he couldn’t explain why that would be an issue worth fighting over, or why, some months later, Wife#1 just moved back in with her parents. He had no explanation at all. None. Or why Wife#2 bolted with the kiddos when he was out of town and left no address. He used to tell a story about getting angry at a woman and leaving her stranded somewhere. I kept asking “Why? Why would you do that?” instead of lacing up my running shoes and getting the hell away from him. I tell my therapist that at least I learned while I’m still in this life.

        • Good for you, LAJ! From your recent posts, it sounds like you’re doing great now. I hope to get to that level soon. xoxo

        • this is so true, Lovedajackass. I wish I knew about disordered people before I met my husband. I was so innocent and naive I thought people treat you the way you treat them. I just read your post and could hear all his red flags running through my head. He told me his ex gf was an alcoholic, psycho, bitch, controlling, jealous, and tried to ruin his life. That she gave him a hard time and he took her outo like the trash. Turns out I learned too late that he was a cheater and liar and she kicked him out. No one told me because they said they believed him that she was crazy. i constantly beat myself up over not knowing this was a red flag. how stupid was I. seriously it’s 7 years later and if I only knew that pedastool would be ripped out from under me too. he was so believable and although I knew it was harsh she just sounded so horrible. I trusted him. He’s a cop and I trusted his version of things. i mean he wrote reports for a living for shits sake! I’m so much smarter now. I just wish I could go back and kick younger me in the ass.

      • See my comment above. Jackass sent up so many red flags and I minimized or spackled it all. I’d probably still be doing that if I hadn’t come here.

        • But when there are no red flags, hmmm. The “absolute darlings” (yeah, right) that just have brain explosions, after 25 fantastic years – that is another total mindfuck. Trying hard to to try to untangle the skein then is like a super power, one you just can’t seem to access! It’s been a long time since D-day now, but that is what blew my mind. There really were no red flags. I have seen and been around enough cheaters over the decades to have a highly sensitive bullshit meter.

          And it just never really registered anything.

          The master of deception, reading her texts out loud to me, letting me read them, talking quite openly about her from time to time, rolling his eyes at her politics, and shallowness in certain instances – he had her so well trained, to not let the cat out of the bag, that I honestly thought we were all just lovely friends, ugh.

          I’ll stay single, thanks!

  • God, that word salad sent shivers up my spine. If my cheater ex wasn’t currently remarried, I’d think he wrote it. HEY, this letter didn’t originate from the capital of a Plains state, did it?

    My ex never got over the shame of wondering which of his peers had reviewed his gobbedly-gook academic journal submission with the remark “Is —– a native English speaker?”. Holy cow, I should have run that day long ago when, as we were getting to know each other, he wanted to watch me read his letter to me, full of steamy sexual fantasies and ding-ding-don’t-ignore-these-weirdo-signals. Not only did it lack any coherence (like basic subject-verb agreement), but he had nearly undecipherable teeny tiny chicken scratch penmanship.

    In my experience, cheaters who write in such tortured English are a) trying very hard to come across as lah-di-dah literate, and b) giving us a peek into their neurotic, paranoid, passive-agressive and self-absorbed addled minds.

    • ColdTurkey,
      No, this is a West Coast clone to your ex. I suspect there are more such clones spread out around the world, alas.

    • Tortured syntax among native speakers is either an attempt to appear intelligent that fails or it reveals an attempt to manipulate or deceive. Syntax is largely unconscious. Where we put the actor (subject) and the object of action has to do with with where we assign and avoid responsibility and agency. People who use statement analysis in interrogation note that incomplete sentences and garbled syntax often indicate deception.

      • Thanks for this, LAJ. You’re spot on. He always exhibited a puzzling (to me) combination of both knee-knocking self-doubt as well as maddening braggadocio, and he most certainly was a master of deception. Plus, the man was nearly incapable of using the active voice, so his prose was literally torture to read.

        Thanks for sharing your insight.

  • A fun Friday challenge for some Friday might be to post a letter or juicy excerpts from a number of letters and let Chump Nation practice some UBT skills.

    • Here’s another fun Friday challenge. Post a cheater’s online profile and the chump gets to point out,line by line, all the lies,half truths and discrepancies !

        • Asshat essentially abandoned us (after 30 year marriage) and took up with trollface asap…insisting on introducing her to our adult kids. Although, in a relationship with her for close to a year, I find out by accident, that he is still online dating because he came up as my perfect match. Lmfao. They never change. Btw…I cancelled my account immediately. Who needs that kinda grief??? Liar. Cheater. Pig.

      • I love this! Years ago I sent a message to cheater ex’s unwitting girlfriend with his current dating site profile attached, showing his numerous recent logins. I explained to her that I had been duped, she was currently being duped, and she could decide if she wished to pursue the relationship with him. She was shocked, thanked me for alerting her, and sent him packing.

        Ex was absolutely furious with me for outing him and refused to believe that I contacted her not out of vengeance but for universal sisterhood. No way in hell was I going to let another woman be duped by another lying, cheating asshole.

        It took him about two weeks to move in with the subsequent woman to whom he is now married, and believe me, she really deserves him.

        • I really love this story, ColdTurkey. Good on you for letting the first girlfriend know! I wish I could contact the cheater’s GF and send her over here.

  • I just LOVE the UBT. Nigerian-scammer-ese? LOVE IT!!

    I wish there were an invention where every Chump could have a personal UBT like a smartphone.

    I just knew that when Chump Lady did not chime in at 8:00 am, my time zone, something great was coming along.

    UBT: essential for survival. Even for my adult sons.

  • Far out – were we going out with the same guy? (probably)

    My investment-of-two-months – with less than 24 hours actual face-to-face contact, it being a long distance thing – went to pieces when I got too curious, and asked awkward questions about his (obviously enmeshed) relationship with his still-living elderly mother, plus the wealthy older widow he’d been stringing along, plus a very unfinished thing with another woman who now lived overseas, but who had been the Plan B for about 20 years now.

    Then he told me, ‘I cannot tolerate argument in my life’, and ‘I should not have to deal with hurt’.

    Great! Thanks for letting me know. But maybe don’t look for an adult relationship, because that’s what tends to happen in them. Much better to stick with a string of ambivalent, open-doors, boundary-less and infinitely flexible arrangements of varying degrees of non-intimacy.

    This guy had NO boundaries. In fact, his boundaries were so non-existent, they were practically negative values. And he was nearly 60.

    Oy veh.

  • “In my experience, cheaters who write in such tortured English are a) trying very hard to come across as lah-di-dah literate, and b) giving us a peek into their neurotic, paranoid, passive-agressive and self-absorbed addled minds.”

    Correct.

    “Tortured syntax among native speakers is either an attempt to appear intelligent that fails or it reveals an attempt to manipulate or deceive. … People who use statement analysis in interrogation note that incomplete sentences and garbled syntax often indicate deception.”

    Correct.

    Thank you for these helpful snippets – very useful in my line of work, where I meet a lot of tortured older men with Complicated Love Lives and egos visible from space.

    • “tortured older men with Complicated Love Lives and egos visible from space”

      Hilarious, Lola Granola! Thank you for giving me a good laugh tonight ..

    • Hey Lola Granola —

      What I learned from reading and listening to James Bonds’ garbled syntax is Liars Don’t Lie — ya just have to know how to listen. If it’s just simply indecipherable — there’s no truth being spoken.

  • “But if a man devalues someone to you, he will devalue you to someone else.”

    LovedAJackass, you are on fire today. Mine did that, too. Thanks for the tip.

    No Contact really is the path to the truth and the light. When I cut contact with Two-Months, he was furious. Up till then it had been all sweetness and light, and how loving he felt towards me, even though It Could Never Be. It was all misty horizons, wistful yearnings, and the half-light of More in Sorrow Than In Anger.

    Then I ruined everything with the bucket of cold water that is No Contact. SPLASH!

    When it turned out I was not going to be one of many kibble dispensers, or a toasty little fire he could go back and warm himself at whenever he fancied, he turned quite nasty. As they invariably do!

  • I’m sure there are a lot out there, but WHO are these women who, in similar situations, would read this request and sign up for this shit?

    Mine had hints {he wrote things like; “I obtained a headache.”} but never laid out schemes like this…
    But this guy is absolutely promising a cluster***ck of drama and headaches – with zero return.

    Are women this desperate?

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