Oh Modern Love, what-the-everliving-fuck? A bazillion of you sent me Sunday’s New York Time’s ML column — a look at relationships from the point of view of a 49-year-old woman who screws married men. Because… well, you know how it goes after divorce, when you create Tinder profiles for no-strings-attached sex, and lonely, tragically misunderstood, sexless men reply by the dozens, and you fuck a few, and it confers relationship expert status upon you. Yeah that.
I always enjoy being condescended to about how my relationships need honesty and intimacy from someone who prefers clandestine NSA hook-ups with guys named SpankyBoy57.
I’m not sure it’s possible to justify my liaisons with married men, but what I learned from having them warrants discussion. Not between the wives and me, though I would be interested to hear their side. No, this discussion should happen between wives and husbands, annually, the way we inspect the tire tread on the family car to avoid accidents.
Don’t mind little ol’ me fucking yer husband there. You two just discuss my Learned Insights amongst yourselves. They warrant discussion. Unlike your feelings about it, which warrant no mention at all. #fuckingURhusbandmakesmeanexpert #gravitas
Yes, Karin Jones would like to hear from those wives on “the other side” but alas, the NYT has conveniently disabled comments, so she’ll just have to imagine all your hearts and kisses.
The important takeaway here is that keeping your husband faithful is much like inspecting your tire treads on the family car… that is, if your Goodyear radials were missing and hiding on someone else’s Buick.
Anyway… Karin has written an essay entitled “What Sleeping With Married Men Taught Me About Infidelity.” Let’s guess.
That “sleep” is a euphemism? (Unless you pay for the girlfriend experience.)
That everything you “learned about infidelity” you learned from a liar?
A few years ago, while living in London, I dated married men for companionship while I processed the grief of being newly divorced. I hadn’t sought out married men specifically. When I created a profile on Tinder and OkCupid, saying I was looking for no-strings-attached encounters, plenty of single men messaged me and I got together with several of them. But many married men messaged me too.
Imagine that. Many men — married and unmarried — replied to an online profile offering no-strings-attached sexual encounters. Wow. Way to gain a following, Karin. Russian Twitterbots have nothing on you.
And I totally get where you’re coming from on the sex-only thing, which is why you date married men for “companionship.”
After being married for 23 years, I wanted sex but not a relationship. This is dicey because you can’t always control emotional attachments when body chemicals mix, but with the married men I guessed that the fact that they had wives, children and mortgages would keep them from going overboard with their affections. And I was right. They didn’t get overly attached, and neither did I. We were safe bets for each other.
I blame the body chemicals, Drak Noir and Fancy Feast. I also blame the mortgages. The men would go overboard with their affections, were it not for those mortgages. Wives and children can be replaced, but a 3.25% fixed rate?
I asked him: “What if you said to your wife, ‘Look, I love you and the kids but I need sex in my life. Can I just have the occasional fling or a casual affair?’”
He sighed. “I don’t want to hurt her,” he said. “She’s been out of the work force for 10 years, raising our kids and trying to figure out what she wants to do with her life. If I asked her that kind of question, it would kill her.”
I asked him: “What if you left your wife for me, then we could companion all the time! And you and me and Fluffy and Snowball could be a family! And sit on my sofa and watch Father Brown reruns! And you could take me to that wedding and introduce me as your cousin!”
He sighed: “You’re just an orifice to me, Karin. My wife has been out of the workforce for 10 years, raising our children. Her economic vulnerability gives me carte blanche to fuck around on her. Why would I trade alimony and child support for your cat hair-covered ass?”
But sex is basic. Physical intimacy with other human beings is essential to our health and well-being. So how do we deny such a need to the one we care about most? If our primary relationship nourishes and stabilizes us but lacks intimacy, we shouldn’t have to destroy our marriage to get that intimacy somewhere else. Should we?
Karin had to do it because those men WEREN’T GETTING SEX!! Not a smidgeon! Not even a fleeting glimpse at wifely ankle! And how does Karin know? Because cheating men who created anonymous dating profiles on the Interwebs told her so. They were also misunderstood and please don’t call them on the weekends because Bible study.
These men shouldn’t have to destroy their marriages because you won’t put out, Wifey! Have a conversation! Kick the tire threads! Suck a dick occasionally! Karin Jones is now an authority with a voice in the New York Times because you’re frigid! And that’s tragic. She doesn’t want this kind of attention, but she must Share What She Learned so preventable bald tire/bald man-slut accidents don’t happen.
And just to be fair, it’s not the women who are all frigid, causing their men to cheat. Men, some of you are a little less than adventurous. Put down that stamp collection and listen to Karin.
If you read the work of Esther Perel, the author of the recently published book “State of Affairs,” you’ll learn that, for many wives, sex outside of marriage is their way of breaking free from being the responsible spouses and mothers they have to be at home. Married sex, for them, often feels obligatory. An affair is adventure.
If you read the work of Esther Perel, you might want to boil your head like a Christmas pudding and stick a spike of holly through your cranium.
Men, fucking you feels obligatory. Your wives need adventure. You don’t get adventure, you have stamps.
She needs the kind of positive affirmation and adventure that can only come from antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea. Fucking strange is never obligatory, unless you’re Karin Jones, in which case it is. (THE SEXLESS MEN NEED SAVING!)
And antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea cannot be cured, unless you’re Esther Perel, in which case it’s invisible. Unlike Esther Perel who is all too visible and inspiring stupid articles like this one in the New York Times.
I am not saying the answer is non-monogamy, which can be rife with risks and unintended entanglements. I believe the answer is honesty and dialogue, no matter how frightening. Lack of sex in marriage is common, and it shouldn’t lead to shame and silence. By the same token, an affair doesn’t have to lead to the end of a marriage. What if an affair — or, ideally, simply the urge to have one — can be the beginning of a necessary conversation about sex and intimacy?
What these husbands couldn’t do was have the difficult discussion with their wives that would force them to tackle the issues at the root of their cheating. They tried to convince me they were being kind by keeping their affairs secret. They seemed to have convinced themselves. But deception and lying are ultimately corrosive, not kind.
Gee, I wonder why these men and women won’t have this conversation? Isn’t it amazing that they can craft dating profiles, and get naked with strangers, and yet lack the courage to TALK honestly? Mind. BLOWN. It’s almost like… like… they don’t want to be honest.
Tut, tut. Deception and lying are corrosive and unkind. Fucking your husband? Not so much.
This one ran previously. The UBT ate too much turkey and is still recovering.
Well, Turkeyzilla is worthy of at least a week of digestion!
Unlike Karin Jones and Esther Perel who are explosive diarrhea.
I love how she assumes every man that has an affair is lacking sex in their marriage. Did she ever think they was lying? People cheat because they suck. Many people still have sex with their spouses and still cheat. My ex and I had plenty of intimacy. Guess when it started tapering off, when the affair began!!
A way I put it is that a cheating husband “makes love” to the ow, and comes home and “has sex” with his wife.
AND, the wife doesn’t know this, until she does.
Yes , exactly this.
The first excuse my ex-wife gave when I asked her “why” was “because I felt like you didn’t love me anymore”.
Umm…so you think sex with willing married men equals love? According to this article, it equals no strings attached fun.
My ex wanted adventure and the giddy sparkles of keeping secrets from me. Her and one of her affair partners also took pleasure of secretly rubbing it in my face. I had Sunday School with the piece of crap. We all held hands and prayed after class. Ex-wife and AP would always sit and coordinate where I would always end up holding the AP’s hand and ex would hold AP’s wife’s during prayer.
Cheating is bad enough, but when they arrange circumstances to be able to enjoy the duping delight together, it’s fucking unbelievable. In Sunday School of all places. These two reveled in the fact of how naughty they were. Truly sickening.
Oh, and we had plenty of sex at home. I wanted it more than she did, but it never crossed my mind that she didn’t love me or did I ever think I could cheat if I wanted more. No, it made me try to make each time we did as special as possible.
With her, the intimacy actually increased when she was cheating on me. Probably because she was high on cake.
Exactly these men that cheat and women are scum plain and simple I divorced mine and met a decent man!????
The x did something similar when we were vacationing. He went to “run” on the beach before the kids and I were awake. Later, when we were all on the beach with the kids making sandcastles, this woman came up in front of us and bent over exposing her thong-clad ass to my family. The turd sat there hiding behind his sunglasses as I slowly clued in as to what had transpired earlier in the day. In. front. of. our. kids.
I understand that creepy feeling knowing that they got their jollies from them knowing and me not knowing.
Still makes me nauseous ????
There is so much really sick about that!
Sorry you have to know what that feels like SweetPotatoFlakes. Lots of stuff gets so much easier but that creepy feeling remains as a reminder of how lucky we are to be away from them!
So sorry, SweetPotatoFlakes.
“These two reveled in the fact of how naughty they were”.
I had the same type of experience.
And they like to mess with the sacred.
Ugh. We used to say grace at table but during the devalue/discard phase I got more and more uncomfortable when ex said grace. Me and the kids don’t say grace anymore. My own faith is just as strong and now more mature, I think, but I don’t know what all this did to the kid’s view of faith.
yeah, that’s one thing we’ve all gotta remember
what they really get off on is the LYING
not the sex with the lover, not the secret cuddling with a Tinder match
it’s the LYING TO US ABOUT IT and how GOOD IT FEELS for them to do it
(forming all you need to know about Trust That They Suck…but you can google Inverted Social Reward if you want to see the psychological gears at work that make Trust That They Suck a foolproof maxim)
wanting sex with someone besides your spouse?
totally natural, we all do it!
occasionally fantasizing sex with someone besides your spouse?
totally natural, we all do it!
getting a super-intense high off fucking random people and then LYING to everyone about it? and the LYING some more to cover up the LIES with more delicious LIES about how much sex you are having in motels?
ummmm….what? why would that feel good?
i mean, i’ve never “done” it but I think of it like, say, sticking my hand under this running lawnmower: i am able to infer that it would cause messy, life-degrading damage, which i will eschew in favor of playing with my beautiful young children and possibly going for a run
call me a genius
I’d see two of my ex-wife’s affair partners in social settings. Both of them would do the exact same thing. As soon at I happened to make eye contact with them, they’d immediately come over to me and shake my hand and ask me how I’m doing. Then they’d act like they were so happy to see me.
It was like a little kid saying “I know something you don’t know” but twisted and insane.
In my fantasy scenario you’d smile back, gesture toward OW#2, and say, “Great! Have you met [name of OW #2], who is also my husband’s Real True Love?”
Man! That is one good post! Thank you Saying that FSW Mid Atlantic
I was the one keeping myself looking put together, asking and initiating more intimacy and being rejected. He didn’t want a vintage dime. He wanted a shiny new penny, and he got it.
I am an archives whore – i hold my hands up and admit it so i have read this one before still love it though.
But what i have also noticed is about 97% of chumps were still having regular sex with the cheater . I know a lot of cheaters with held sex ( didn’t want to cheat on the AP ) and also used withdrawal of sex as punishment .
If a married person says to you we don’t have sex anymore then ANYONE with morals should say , i am very sorry about that you should talk with your spouse maybe seek a sex therapist . But sadly all of them with out an once of self respect will drop their drawers ( underwear) to get a cheap bit of sex with anyone
Oh, the lightness of it all…
Being intentionally selected by a Jesus backstabber -no less- owing to a vulnerable position – such as, for instance, a financially week situation, and, for instance, a special-needs sibling.
Find oneself married to spouse under undisclosed hidden agenda
Held hostage in another continent – no need to even destroy her support network – how marvelous
Abandoned for greener pastures once undisclosed item is fulfilled: for instance, function of stepping-stone wife vis-à-vis family, career, friends, acquaintances, kept until older generation is alive, then dropped.
Not in a million years can I possibly understand how a woman could possibly be okay with having anything to do with a married man, PERIOD.
As I find myself playing with the fringe of the dating world (just touching my toe into the water), I think about what I would do if I learned that the man I’m flirting with or on a date with is married. I even wonder about people on dating sites who state they are “separated” as opposed to “divorced.” I know that separated can mean a lot as more people are not bothering with a divorce for years because the legal separation agreement has taken care of everything else, but still it doesn’t sit well with me.
Of all the excuses that men (and women, I know) give…
…I haven’t been in love with her for years.
…we are more partners than we are husband/wife.
…we haven’t had sex in years.
…I haven’t found her attractive in years.
…we haven’t had a real marriage in years.
…we’re separated already but just living under the same roof (bullshit!).
…she knows that I’m dating other people.
…I’m in the process of leaving right now but just working out some final details.
…we have a deal where we are together for the sake of the kids.
…she’s been treating me like shit for years.
…she’s controlling and criticizing.
How clueless does a person have to be to think, “Yeah, now that’s something I should get myself caught up in?” Don’t we all have enough problems in our own lives that we don’t need to be seeking out someone else’s.
How desperate do you have to be to justify to yourself that this is a man who deserves your listening ear and that you can be that “special” friend who understands him better than his own wife. Don’t you wonder what is wrong with this guy that he (a) doesn’t talk to his own wife or (b) have family members or friends to actually talk to without seeking the company of some random woman?
How numb do you have to be about your own self-preservation that you want to settle on someone who is a proven “liar” and “cheater”? Normal people wonder if the person they are dating has a history of cheating and make that a deal-breaker, but the OW knows it for a fact and it doesn’t deter her. Really?
As a woman raising a girl, all I can think of is how do I ensure that my daughter doesn’t become one of these women?
If I ever got any of those lines I just told the Cheater: “Call me when you’re single. I don’t date married men”. Funny how seldom I’d ever hear from any of them. Not.
The best response to a man who tells you that he his wife are separated but are allowed to see other people is: ‘Great! Can I confirm that with your wife?’
Followed by, ‘Fuck off.’
But why in the world would you want to see them when/if they become single? You already know they cheat!
Thank you for this. You’ve absolutely nailed it down. I have a daughter, too. Tried to use exact arguments with my former in-laws why I was not okay with daughter meeting ow. Their pathetic sanctimonious butts wouldn’t get it.
Sex was withheld in my marriage. We still had sex about 10 times a year – sad I know. I have a high libido. I kept trying to talk it out, initiated, even planned kid free weekend in a hotel. He had the audacity of complaining why I had set dinner so late and what to do on all that time in the suite?! He read the newspaper and fell asleep. Only reason I stayed was that I had an early morning flight taking me to a week trip to Barcelona by myself.
There in Barcelona I was approached twice by married men. Tourists like me. Told me about their wife and kids. I was lonely, I felt unappreciated. I was a sexless, horny woman with a double room for single use and nobody would have ever known. The last thing on my mind was to feel special or selected by these cheaters! I immediately told them they sick and asked, how do you get to chat me up while your wife is taking care of the kids?! I refused the dinner invitation and paid my coffee and left. I think it’s normal to think of your spouse and your vows and the woman on the other side. This was before my D-day.
I can’t believe Karin is allowed to spread this crap in the NY times. I hope at the time, they lost some subscribers.
Me too. One of the most painful elements of my rejection was that it happened in tandem with literal sexual rejection. I was the only one who initiated, looked amazing every day, came up with new things to do, etc. Took it in stride and continued smiling and trying harder to please when my polite complaints and requests were routinely ignored. Hearing this tired drivel about AP’s rescuing men from their frigid wives makes me want to scream. I hope all these people get stuck in sexless marriages with fellow cheaters. Then perhaps they’ll have some useful life lessons to share with Times readers.
Agreed! I usually initiated with my husband, as well. He was always tired and exhausted from his long hours and demanding job. He put everything into the military. 17 years together countless deployments and I don’t even know how much time spent being a single mom with him chasing his career. The missed sex was NOT on my account. He cannot keep up with me. During his 2 1/2 month affair he would barely even hug me. For fear of her wrath. Yet when I found out, he had zero problems dropping her. She didn’t matter at all to him. He was like some tool for him during his path of personal destruction and demise. He wants so badly to fix us, and I want so badly to know what it’s like to actually feel valued in a relationship. What is that even like?! 17 years on the back burner, and for some dumb female wrecking lives to say it is the wives withholding! Please! He never prioritized me our sex life or made it fun and interesting. THAT was me. It’s ironic a divorced woman wants to give advice to women. What was wrong in her marriage, then?
Sex. We had lots. Until howorker arrived. Then he was sick, tired, unavailable. I danced harder. The house was cleaner. The meals delightful. Still he stonewalled and ignored me. We had less sex. I danced myself into depression and therapy. He moved out of the bedroom. We had no sex. I discovered the side chick. (Note to all potential cheaters. Don’t list your side ho under your deceased mother’s name. It is quite a shock when that name pops up. I knew she wasn’t texting. She never did.) It took me a year and daily, bi-weekly and weekly sessions with my therapist who says “Adultery is abuse.” to line up my bedraggled ducklings and get out. I’m out now and look back at our lives through the suspicious lens of the victim of adultery. He damn near killed me. I wanted to die. I’m done and I have to cut this short because I’m meeting my personal trainer at the gym. I love all of us, Chump Lady, Chumps, newly chumped, suspicious spouses, we will prevail!
????♀️ “Mom??? Is that you? Sending me sexy messages from beyond the grave??!”
Seriously, cheaters are so stupid. That made my morning.
Just his thought process… how does that work? He’s sitting there thinking and thinking- how do I trick 33years? And then… eureka! His mom is dead. Per.fect.cover.
Boudicca, I got a good hearty laugh at your incredulous post. There are no limits to his stupidity. He still thinks he is the smartest man in the room. I never confronted him with this knowledge. I just took the dog and left!
UXWorld, just another nail in the coffin for our marriage. He was the golden child, his Mother’s favorite. I hope she haunts him. She once told me “Of all my children, I see you the most. Thirtythreeyearsachump you are better to me than my born children.” I loved my MIL, she was the kind of Mom I always wanted. She was a chump. Her husband cheated on her too. He had another family. I didn’t know that until we’d been married for years.
I’m out. That is all that matters.
Risking exposing a partner to diseases.
Risking an unwanted pregnancy.
Withholding intimacy from a partner.
Those things are all shitty, no matter why a person does them. Period.
If you’re a person behaving in a way that is shitty to others, whether you’re the partner or the affair partner, you’re being an asshat whose actions have no justification. They’re just shitty. That makes YOU shitty.
That’s the base truth.
Wow, the degree folks will go to to rationalize wrong is simply stunning! As long as they are getting what they need, what me worry? Other people and their feelings and years and years of commitment? Just a footnote for cheaters.
The mind of the OW. She seems to be proud that she screwed married men. Talking about the POS men who cheated with her because they did not get any at home. Even if they had a sexless marriage cheating is still not OK. This woman is so proud that she got used by married men. She probably was never cheated on. Being cheated on almost destroyed me. Any women with morals or integrity would tell the married man to go pound sand.
Talk about entitlement. She writes an article about what she learned about sleeping with married men. Now that is a classy lady.
“She probably was never cheated on.”
In her ramblings she indicated that adultery wasn’t a factor in her divorce. So she is one of the smuggers.
“Adultery wasn’t a factor in her divorce” says a cheater.
My ex cheater has blamed my family, religion, my being overweight, getting married young, the list goes on and on,etc. But never once has said our divorce was because of his affair. Yet I was in the same marriage and I filed for divorce “because of his affair.” Maybe we should ask her divorced spouse why they got divorced.
She says she was never cheated ON – she didn’t say she hadn’t cheated. Oh darn, I can’t go back and read the entire thing because of the paywall that I am ignoring.
She still reeks of smugness though!
“What Robbing Banks Taught Me About Larceny”
Those banks really have problems!
???? ???? ????
Many of you chumps are blaming the OW. I used to as well, but after I went from being a chump to free. I thanked the OW, because the real culprit here was my lying, deceitful married man, not the OW. I finally have my life back without the a$$hole. We always look to blame others, why not start from the inside?
Don’t you just love how she just knows that she is so fabulous and irresistible that any man she has sex with would have to have a wife, kids and a mortgage holding him back from falling head over heels in love with her.
Good grief………narcissistic much?
Yup, she’s a free lay lol. Conspiring to deceive an innocent person, what a great lady!
All the married men gave her the Sad Sausage routine and she actually believed them….and then she told everyone who reads the NYT about it! LOL. I almost feel sorry for her. Almost.
Looking forward to her next column “You need to feed your dog more, because it is eating Timmy’s homework.”
We had a crummy sex life. For months after DDay I beat myself up….he cheated because we had a crummy sex life!
Then I started to remember that I was the only one of us that made efforts to address it. He ignored what I said, what I wanted.
Then I realized one day we had a crummy sex life BECAUSE he was cheating. I am also Caucasian, blonde, blue eyes. I could never be his fantasy racial demographic, which I never knew anything about until after DDay. If you want live experiences of your sexual fantasies, I don’t think you’re the marrying type…..
My healing focus is on me….why did I pick him? Why did I stay? I am not taking responsibility for him cheating, but I should have left long before DDay and didn’t. ????
Me, too. He didn’t like blonde or boobs, turns out.
My ex claims he doesn’t like blondes (I am blonde hair and blue eye). The AP whore was brunette but shes gone too. He’s going to run out of hair colors if he keeps on. HAHA
Despite having good sex 2-3 times a week, which, in my opinion, is pretty robust for 50 year olds, I’d never be a skanky Craigslist meth head whore charging $75 for a fuck.
I’m an Asian chump. And, my caucasian wasband left me for a younger Asian OW, while chatting with two of his caucasian girlfriends. He needs to be needed. I was too strong and independent, apparently ????♀️
Anyone who has a “fantasy racial demographic” doesn’t see those people as people but as fetish objects. Sickening.
I am in complete agreement.
My husband went from liking my darker hair/easily tanned skin to saying things like “lighter skin indicates purity” and looking at very blonde, blue eyed women. Oh and he also loves Nikki Minaj for her “uninhibited sexuality.” I don’t think any woman actually wins in these scenarios
I had a therapist ask me how my sex life with XH was before the cheating and abandonment. It was passionate, frequent, and adventurous. I even got pregnant a couple months before he left. The therapist was surprised by that answer. It frustrates me so much when people ask. XH did not leave because of lack of sex, and even if he did, that is never a good excuse.
My friends have asked me that question also. I said that the sex between my XW and I was frequent and good before, during, and after her “first” (2 year) affair. It was during her next couple of affairs that it started to suck. My friends who had been cheated on look at me that I was crazy because their wives started cutting off sex with them during the affairs. It had nothing to do with sex but XW got a high off of screwing illegal Mexicans (she helped them get their citizenship in exchange for sex).
Wow. So your exwife was basically a human trafficker. I’m sure she wouldn’t see it that way. Like my ex who used prostitutes would never see himself as involved in human trafficking–nope all those girls were nursing college students. Yeah. I said he could be sleeping with minors. He looked incredulous. I said “So then, you checked every single one for a government issued ID.” Well no. No he didn’t. But he was a good guy and they were consenting adults who really liked him The lunacy knew no bounds and the self-justification was infinite in nature. Exploitative assholes.
I’m waiting for society to reach the point where we rationalize child abuse and murder – well they made me so angry! What did you expect to happen?!?!
They do rationalize child abuse in america. Unless you can prove abuse “not the child’s word” the legal system will still give the child to the abusive parent. Emotional abuse doesn’t count as abuse. Neglect has to be so extreme and provable “can’t be words” has to be disputable pictures which any lawyer can get thrown out as evidence.
My parents were foster parents before I was born they adopted a child that had multiple fractures, but his siblings who had fractures that had healed and were never taken to doctor for- that wasn’t evidence to take those children from abusive parents. They were handed straight back to the abuser.
If you are a parent the child is basically treated as your property till 18, the state of affairs of what gets tolerated as a society is disgusting.
My God!! I work in the UK in a Primary School and this is astounding. Emotional neglect is a big thing here and in our school taken very seriously. I once reported to our Safeguarding Officer because one of our kids had dirty, long, sharp nails and the family was called in. Sometimes people wonder whether we are a bit paranoid over here but you can’t be too careful with children. Our mantra is, there’s no such thing as other people’s children. What you say here is heartbreaking.
And this is exactly why I don’t read the NY Times. Total trash. Shame on them for giving voices to these “experts” who delight in ruining others’ lives.
It is puzzling that OWs feel so smugly superior to the wife. It is almost as if that is the main reason for having sex with a married man: to enjoy that feeling of superiority.
“…OWs feel so smugly superior to the wife.”
That is exactly why some of the OW have sex with married men. My therapist told me that for some, it stems from “Daddy Issues”. They are “winning” their father back by fucking another woman’s husband. The OW get a feeling of superiority by doing that – especially if the husband leaves the wife for the OW. Essentially, they are trying to find self worth. My XH’s OW finally found her self worth – nestled somewhere in between my husband’s hairy thighs and our investment accounts. Can you imagine anything more pathetic?
.Wow, NoKibble! That fits EXACTLY with my OW. She later wrote my kids an email trying to get their sympathy by explaining that she had had a miserable childhood because her dad had rejected her.
Yes, they do feel superior. My cousin actually told people that the reason my EX cheated on me was because I was a nutjob. She told people that I abused him and stole all his money. She even said that I refused to have sex with my husband for over 10 years and lied about my early menopause. I deserved to be cheated on. As per Skankella she was better for him because she knows how to treat a man. This from a divorced women. The only thing she wanted was his paycheck and my home. She was struggling to pay her bills. Yup. I stole all his money. He only gave me $100.00 a week. And the rest he used to fund their secret dates. I will never understand the mindset of the OW.
My comment all from a divorced women. No offense to divorced women. My cousin’s ex divorced her because she spent all her money on her horses. And she would stay at the stables until late and did not spend time with her ex.
Sounds like your ex turned her into his flying monkey. What a truly charmed life she now leads (sarc).
My ex dumped her like garbage. He dumped her when we were going to work on our marriage. She was very angry with me. My ex continues to want us to date and he states that he screwed up. Who knows maybe Skankella is screwing another cousins husband.
Oh yes, the OW in my case was so incredibly smug that she fucked my husband and won him !! I had a friend who worked with her tell me that she was positively giddy and acted SO coy about it. She was trying to screw lots of married men at work. One guy told me that she was the most brazen and shameless woman he had ever met. My stupid XH was the only one swayed by her ‘charms’. She is so ugly…make a train take a dirt road ugly. I bet she wasn’t even cute as a baby. She never had children so she showered the X with all kinds of toys. He’s her toddler now.
Exactly! My OW felt the need to condescendingly tell me she was a ‘genuinely nice person’ and hopes me and my husband can work it out for the sake of our marriage and (7 week old) child. Funny, she wasn’t concerned for our marriage or the fact I was 7 months pregnant while she was messing with XH but thanks for the advice… ????
When I coerced the predatory AP into calling me by sending him his own HR dept. phone number.
He had been married a total of 6 months to a money generator, high end realtor. No offense to high end realtors, this guy was just a user. I think it was his 4th wife.
Anyway, first words out of his mouth. Your wife is hot. Hey everybody is doing this at our age. Second thing he spoke of, was to criticize my wife’s videoing ability. It was always to dark.
Later, my X would admit “they got each other”. I would find myself regurgitating to her his first response, and telling her she was just being used.
Now? I do not know if they currently have ‘got each other”. My X is not a high end money generator, after her throwing 27 yrs away for such a keeper as he, they damn sure deserve each other!
I read the article above, maybe somebody can expound on here. Is there no such thing anymore as “team girl”. I guess I am just old fashion in thinking y’all ladies consider the other girlfriend/wife before you sidle up to any man. And then there is the “used” thing. This is just me thinking, but did the women’s lib. movement give some ladies the idea “i am powerful, so use me”.
I guess when I get ready to date eventually. I will be worried I will see everyone as cheaters. I know that will probably go away, but now its a little demoralizing.
Nope. Anyone knowingly willing to be an affair partner is a person with zero morals. There is no “old girls club” that keeps some women from enjoying being an AP. There are horrible people and their sexual orientation has nothing to do with anything.
Trust that all cheaters and their knowing partners suck!
That’s why it’s imperative to take lots of time to fix yourself and clear your judgement (what CL calls fix your picker). Dating after being cheated on requires a tough skin and a very strong warning system for red flags.
Some women really get a kick out of getting one over (or so they see it) on other women. It seems to prove their own world view, that no men can or should be expected to remain faithful. That’s not all women, certainly, but the more narcissistic they are the more likely they are to engage in this behavior. I’d be wary of any woman who pointedly doesn’t like other women. You can be unique without hating your own gender. Most men don’t see the whole “I don’t have female friends because of all the drama,” as being a red flag, but it is. Like the dude that only has female friends… there’s usually a reason
Agreed! I’ve met many women who don’t like women. I steer clear of them. The OW doesn’t have a friend in the world and never has. My XH has no friends either. Red flags????????????????????????
My OW presents herself as a feminist who supports other women. But it’s clear that she has few if any friends. Back when I was Facebook stalking her I noticed that she would write compliments on other women’s photos, but only those who were safely less conventionally attractive than she was and the compliments were clearly insincere. There was a condescension to it, an obvious effort on her part to be the benevolent beautiful woman doling out advice and encouragement to the less fortunate. A control thing. Friends of mine who know her (women) have told me they got a weird vibe off her and decided to keep a polite distance from her. Red flags that are so obvious to fellow women are apparently invisible to most men.
I used to subscribe to the Sunday NYT and the Modern Love column was one of my favorites. Then Dday happened and I was almost destroyed by the shock, pain, and abuse that followed. My kids almost succeeded in killing themselves. I canceled NYT. Fuck those cheater apologists! I wrote and told them why as well.
On a similar note, my cheater narcissist mom loves Oprah. She bought me a subscription to the magazine. Elizabeth Gilbert is a frequent contributor. I canceled that too and write and emailed O and several editors about why, linked to this site, tried to educate them about the abuse of cheating. I liken it to the magazine allowing a known child molester to write a monthly column dispatching “moral” advice. Sickening.
Good for you for registering your reasons for unsubscribing.
For the most part, I can take this article with a grain of salt. Karin Jones would appear to be a woman that enjoys fucking married men – as well as assuming the self-proclaimed role of being an authority on it. Yeah. Ok. But I take exception with her explanation of intimacy. For the love of all things holy, can we please as a society redefine what intimacy actually is?
Intimacy is buying that first house and then worrying each month how you will make the mortgage. Intimacy is passing a crying, sick baby back and forth at night when neither of you have slept well for days. It’s anxiety on the first day of school, screaming like crazy on the sidelines when the bat connects with the ball and they actually make it to first base, and it’s crying together on the ride home from unpacking them at college. It’s dreaming, planning, sacrificing together to finally take that perfect trip. It’s putting the family dog down. It’s studying 401k plans and burying parents. It’s cancer scares and family holiday traditions. And it’s sex – even when you don’t feel like it, when you have your period and are horribly bloated, when there’s ED. Intimacy is sharing EVERY aspect of those experiences and working through them – when it’s great and when it’s far from great. Intimacy is standing at your partner’s deathbed or their gravesite and having absolutely no idea how you will get through the next hour. THIS is intimacy.
You can love fucking married people. Largely, I don’t care. I’m not interested in even debating those “merits”. I’m more sure of my own values than I have ever been so, honestly, I find those conversations boring. Just don’t call that intimacy. Don’t tell me that people that do so are looking for intimacy. If anything, they are escaping it.
Jammy! Yes, yes, a thousand times yes to what you just said. It has taken a few years out from D-Day to understand this and why the rhetoric around sex and marriage is so confusing. We hear the argument that sex is synonymous with intimacy and crucial to the marriage, paired with the argument that “affairs happen” and “monogamy is unnatural”. Fantasy and kink are offered up as some sort of modern sign of intimacy and yet these are available in the least intimate of settings-like internet porn and sex clubs. While these arguments are triggering a knee-jerk traditionalist reaction in me, I had sex with people I didn’t marry or even have a long-term relationship with when I was younger. It often didn’t feel intimate and I could never have shared the intimacies of childbirth, late night feedings and diaper changes, house-hunting, the ups and downs of watching our children grow–all those things. How can performing the act of sex be more important than anything else in a marriage, if we have sex with more people than we would want to do all the other things a marriage entails? How is it that this act of intimacy that is so important needs to involve more than two people together? It’s very confusing. I mean I respect that some couples enjoy watching porn together, or role play or whatever, but how is following an “instructional video” you watched on pornhub intimate? And how did we get to this place where all the other ups and downs of life can be shared, but not wanting to invite the hot neighbor over for a threesome or give a blow jobs while hanging from the ceiling a sign that intimacy has left the marriage? Sex can’t be something you share readily with strangers if it is something you consider intimate.
I totally agree! I could not have said it better Jammy and madKatie63!
Exactly, madkatie! Even when it comes to kink and fantasy, I’m open to that as part of an intimate relationship. Had it been discussed, I still likely wouldn’t have been up for a threesome or an open marriage – but it could have been resolved in a respectful way…even if that meant ending the marriage honestly. But when the kink/fantasy isn’t about the act but rather the illicitness – the lying, the slipping around, the *imbalance in power* – it isn’t ever going to be discussed because that defeats the purpose. So it’s absolutely a moot point for any other woman (or affair partner) to suggest that I could prevent an affair with more communication/greater knowledge. And further suggesting that the deceit is based on a desire for more intimacy is beyond anything I can comprehend. Even to explain that a cheater is craving strange is limited insight. If they just wanted strange then they would stay single. The fact that they marry and carry on double lives says that they want deceit (subsequently, power and control)…THAT is the kink.
Yes. Sex doesn’t create intimacy. The intimacy you describe creates lovemaking. Sex is a different thing altogether. If sex alone can keep two people happy together we’d only ever have it with one person. The lovemaking we all seek comes from the intimacy you describe. I tried to explain this to ex once…
Thank you, Jammy.
Jammy…My thoughts exactly. My ex could not see the arc of a life together…his tiny but all important penis got in the way.
This Karin Jones is full of absolute bullshit!
My husband cut me off from sex. I have a higher libido than him and have always been available. But he says he is not interested and never really was. Only did it because I wanted it but he is done with that now. Still he wants me to sleep with him so he can put his hands all over me and he likes to feel my breasts. Wtf??? I put a stop to that.
Meanwhile he has this need to hang out with 20 and 30 something year old college girls. He is 57. Cuz he needs “female friendship.
After seeing an attorney I am working on getting my financial ducks in a row. He has no idea.
And even though I have always had a higher libido I have never cheated on him.
I was in a mostly sexless marriage, too. Just one more way he wielded his power in the relationship. A form of “you shall have it when I deem you shall have it” omnipotence (which I now see was actually more rooted in his emotional impotence). He’d also do the “get it started” thing – because, really, how powerful could he be if I simply stopped wanting it? The fact that he could withhold it from me AND give it to someone else? #winning #doublepoints
I stayed faithful, too – through 15 years of that. It probably would have stopped if I had started my own affairs. But then I’d be winning at HIS game…and some “victories” simply cost too much. That whole fighting monsters and abyss gazing thing.
So absolutely true! XAss would withhold affection and then when I’d try for a cuddle and a kiss he’d ask me “Are you trying to solicit me for affection?” while pushing me away. And then he’d tell me that I never initiated sex with him.
I think I refused him sex maybe 3 times over 17 years together, and they were always for physical reasons. The day I said “enough” was when he had treated me like shit for weeks and I was hugely upset with him and his refusal to talk to me. I was also physically and emotionally exhausted. I came out of the bathroom heading for bed and he’s lying on it, naked except for his socks (oh so sexy /s) and says he wants sex. I actually laughed at him in disbelief of his hubris. Then he got mad and accused me of cheating on him. Because ……JFC.
Your definition of “Intimacy” is spot on, and also reminds me of EB White’s definition of “Democracy,” which I used to have my writing students imitate with a word of their own.
You have described my Ex and his AP relationship
Bought house together – Check
Baby together – Check
Holidays – Check
Family occasions – Check
So everything that we take as part of a ” proper ” relationship he is living with her
And people say affairs don’t last !!
You have just listed all of the activities that my X Asshat refused to do. Wouldn’t take care of vomiting babies, and didn’t even hold my hand when I was the vomiting one with morning sickness, instead he complained about how I was inconvenient to him. He ignored me and hid from me when our daughter nearly died from pneumonia at age 6, refusing to hold me or cry with me when we didn’t know if she would live or die (he slept fully clothed on the couch and refused to discuss it). Was not there at his father’s deathbed (it was me, alone, when he died). Would not put his elderly cat to sleep. Did not shed a tear either time as we dropped our girls off at college, even though I was crying during the long drive home across the state. And finally, he abandoned me by e-mail during our 28th year of marriage.
Yes, he was a shit heel. He skipped off to the bed of a chick half his age, the age of his eldest daughter. He blamed me for it all.
They don’t do real intimacy. I know he is not doing anything real with the foreign ho-worker either.
I hope he dies alone and miserable.
Jammy …. you hit the nail on the head! My 32 yr marriage didn’t lack intimacy, it lacked a cheater who lied to me and enjoyed every minute of getting away with his deceit. So sad what he traded it all for, now we are much older and I continue after 4 yrs of divorce to go NC when there is a family event. Sorry for him that he doesn’t get to enjoy true intimacy with me anymore. Me, I don’t totally blame OW or OM its simply people who love to betray another human, its not even about getting off. I think of all the years I put up with ED and now know he probably mainly is doing “himself”. Pulling myself together after learning of the porn, affairs, one nighters etc, strange Pu**y was his choice over the gift of real intimacy.
Beautifully said, Jammy. Thank you.
Thank you, Jammy. This is perfect and helps me enormously tonight.
^^^^SO MUCH THIS
Fireball, your depiction of True Intimacy
both broke my heart and then refilled it with love
thanks so much for sharing
So it’s ok to screw around on your spouse. If you crave variety and a buzz rush. Their consent is immaterial.
This I don’t understand.
Is it because money is not involved?
It reminds me of criminal penalties. Where I live if you rape a woman you get a 1 or 2 year jail sentence, but if you rob a bank you get 10 years plus.
Amazing post, Jammy .
We all should know by now that Tinder does not sell “intimacy”. Not does AM or fill in the blank website.
So she’s saying this wisdom-bestowing journey about which she waxes eloquent started AFTER she got a divorce? Color me skeptical. I’d love to have her ex-husband contribute to this honest conversation.
This past summer I was put in a terrible situation by a mentor. I would have never agreed to meet him at his house in one state and take a two day road trip with him to a conference we were presenting at if I had known his wife wasn’t going to be joining us for the whole trip.
I spent the first 2 nights with them at their summer house. Everything great and kosher. Then we traveled out of state, staying one night at his other places before traveling on the next day to the event we were attending. He makes a very awkward pass at me the night at the 2nd place. I do everything I can to distance myself from the situation, hoping that I was just ‘imagining’ things through the several drinks we had had that evening, and that my older than me by 20 years mentor wasn’t actually trying to see if I would be willing to fuck him in his wife’s bed.
Nope, the next day he starts to tell me his sad sack story about he and his wife are best friends and have been together through so much, but now her health problems, and he still is a vibrant sexual man and wants to have sex, but doesn’t want to hurt his wife’s feelings. I responded with how he needs to discuss this with his wife, and no, I wasn’t going to have pity sex with him. (didn’t actually say pity sex though).
The real kicker was that I was trapped. I was in a strange state, in a strange house, without wheels…. the power was all his. And I had to spend the next few days working with him. At first I was embarrassed, concerned, but the more I thought about it the more furious I became.
So he just fucked up his relationship with me. His wife now doesn’t trust me, doesn’t trust him. And he still didn’t get laid. And for all his statements about how much he loves his wife, he still can’t actually, you know, talk to her about it??
Boo hoo ! He has a case of the sadz ! Can you report him to human resources or another entity ?
No I didn’t report him – though I was very tempted to tell his wife! And now I think he is ashamed and afraid that I will say or do something. Good. Let him squirm!
His wife is one of us though. She deserves to know just like we all deserved to know.
A big part of my discard was the humiliation that everyone knew that he was cheating but me. Our friends, his coworkers, everyone… but me.
Still burns to think about.
If I could describe my sex life with Mme YogaPants over roughly 27 years, it would be “barely adequate” and yes that was my own description – kept quietly to myself – prior to D-Day. With her pain and mobility issues along with body image issues, it was what it was. I was never inclined to go out and seek out random nookie though. I was married. Married people “don’t do that” in my world. Conversely, I am fairly certain that sex wasn’t her primary factor in hooking up with Senor MoneyBags although it undoubtedly was a tool she used to “seal the deal” as it were.
I fully agree with other posters who remark that there is much more to a relationship than sex. I was content in my marriage because I felt that I was and had a partner. Someone to lean on and to be there to be leaned on. Someone with whom I had a shared history and expected to have a shared future with.
I had a conversation with my barber some time ago where he said that guys who are looking for a bit of strange deliberately target married women for the exact same reasons this author suggests. They have too much to lose to get attached. No clue if that was the case in my situation or not. They’ve been a thing going on 4 years now as far as I know and I fully expect that the “well has run dry” as it were there. Not my problem. I do though get a bit of satisfaction from my own discovery that post menopausal women can indeed be quite passionate. And are quite happy to be part of, and expect a monogamous relationship.
So this OW thinks, “I’ll write about what I’ve learned which is that it’s a sad state when people can’t live honest lives. Too bad other people can’t be like me because look how honest my thoughts are about how other people fuck up. Too bad they can’t have an altruistic spirit like me and help others out by explaining what really causes relationship problems.” #whatasaintIam #helpingwivesbyfuckingtheirhusbands
“I’m not fukking behind her back – he is.”
So basically same old same old bs.
All men are completely sex driven and have high libidos. Women are pretty much asexual. Except for the Owhore – the superior female subspecies that actually has a sex drive and she is here to save all these poor men who need sex like oxygen and are so so starved and denied by these inferior women they shacked up with called wives and girlfriends. This superior woman doesn’t mind sacrificing herself to heal these men with clandestine sex because she is special like that, a hero put on this planet to save all these sex starved men from their horrible predicament.
Of course…there is reality. My libido is way higher than fuckwit’s. As a result, our sex life from my perspective was mediocre at best. He was getting all he could handle, I could have used some more but was denied. While he was whoring, our sex life ironically improved a lot – more frequent, more passionate, more fun. Of course, it was never about sex, he was getting off on deceit. It was literally giving him a hard on. Hmmm….maybe I should have sent Owhore a thank you note on that……
The Owhore, of course, was told and was telling herself the same bs – poor sex starved guy. She is special, soooo special. She was giving him what evil me was denying him. I actually had the pleasure of disabusing her of that idea completely and boy oh boy did she have a hard time with that bit of reality biting her in the rear. She felt cheated on….oh the irony of that. Hilarious really.
You’d think that in the 21st Century we, as a society, would stop pushing these completely absurd gender stereotypes…..but then again…..that would put all the narcs on ice and they won’t have that….especially when they own the media…..
My God!! I work in the UK in a Primary School and this is astounding. Emotional neglect is a big thing here and in our school taken very seriously. I once reported to our Safeguarding Officer because one of our kids had dirty, long, sharp nails and the family was called in. Sometimes people wonder whether we are a bit paranoid over here but you can’t be too careful with children. Our mantra is, there’s no such thing as other people’s children. What you say here is heartbreaking.
another transliterative piece of genius from the UBT!
…and you gotta wonder about the NYT’s judgment here.
Surely editors at the Paper Of Record understand the concept of #consent
and therefore understand that Infidelity, is an act of sexual, physical and emotional abuse targeting the non-consenting Betrayed Spouse
and so this piece is just another example of how FAR we have to go as a society in terms of understanding Infidelity as Abuse
rather than laughing at/being titillated by Infidelity because Anything Sexy = TeeHeeHee
reductio ad absurdum:
there are, one assumes, Date Rapists able to share their accumulated life wisdom with us…but most people would be horrified and more than a little surprised to pick up the NYT and see something like this:
“Late Night movies are great because afterwards, the parking lot is empty and there’s no one to see her struggle in my car, which she voluntarily entered because I promised to give her a ride home. Which I did, by the way, for I am a gentleman.”
“Looking back, I realize that 100% of my victims had consumed alcohol before I attacked them. Isn’t it time we start looking at–and possibly correcting?–society’s prudish expectations that women who voluntarily consume alcohol retain their full compliment of legal rights?”
“Intellectual hamster Esther Perel does us all a favor by revising our societal disdain for sexual assault as a “felony” or “something an asshole does”: instead framing it as a grand ‘adventure’ undertaken in ebullient rebellion against society’s stifling anti-rape statutes. Because freedom from interpersonal accountability and protection from the consequences of our actions are always the building blocks of true cultural change.”
Awesome reductio not so absurdum.
I’ve seen people say that being cheated on was actually more traumatic than being raped. Plus, by continuing to have sex with the spouse without telling the spouse of their cheating, that is not consensual sex. The chump does not have the vital informtion needed for informed consent, and true consent must be informed.
That’s exactly right…and it’s cheating us out of our Right To Consent
that really gets them off…and it’s self-evident:
because if was just cheap new sex they were after
they would simply go out and get it
and then when asked upon their return home, we said “hi hun, how was your day?”
they would say “good, just little sore from getting buttfucked by a random Tinder match”
and it would be at THAT time they would launch into the Sad Sausage Excuse List
they could lecture us about our lack of
or how we just don’t do enough
or that they’ve realized the “forsaking all others” part of the vow
was actually just fancy talk for “monogamy”
and that while they probably should have spaketh up back then
rather than holding their peace…the truth is
that they discovered their truest, most honest self in that motel
and are more than happy for you to share that news with everyone
…but who amongst us got that level of honesty?
nobody, because LYING is their kink
and always will be
My STBX ALWAYS complained that I didn’t want sex enough.
When our daughter was born and I went in to the OBGYN for a 2 week follow up-2nd c-section in 2 years-my ex, my 2 year old twins and my 2 week old baby ALL came into the exam room.
My ex complained to the doctor that my sex drive was too low and if there was a pill I could take.
The doctor looked around the room (my twins were playing with rubber gloves while my daughter was crying) and said, “Your wife runs a business outside the home and has 3 babies two years old and younger. There’s NOTHING wrong with her sex drive-she’s just TIRED.”
I never thought my STBX was a sex addict-I think he equated sex with love. And is also a selfish narcissist…..
I was not having a lot of sex with my husband when I found out he was cheating. He convinced me that I deserved being cheated on because of that, and that I needed to give him more sex if I wanted to save our marriage and family.
So which came first, the chicken or the egg?
He pinned the problem on me, and the marriage counselor let him so I picked me put out and I got the privilege of staying married.
I realize now, that I had fallen out of love with my husband and had lost my sexual desire for him.
Who wants to have sex with someone who leaves all the adulting up to you? I was exhausted from earning 75% of our income, managing the household, and caring for our young children. Meanwhile he was up til 2 in the morning playing video games or leaving us to go play tennis until 11 at night. I was essentially living with a teenager.
I found out later he had cheated on me when we were engaged and having lots of sex. And now he is into polyamory and BDSM.
So, no, I was never going to satisfy him and thank god he is no longer my husband, just somebody that I used to know.
This is one of the funniest yet! Great work!
As for this idiot, how does she know sexless marriages are “common”? Based only on what a small selection of known liars have told her, she invents a statistical fact. It’s neither a statistically representative sample, nor a random sample, nor an honest sample. Guess what, round heels? That means it’s absolutely not a fact, it’s just your self-serving attempt to rationalize your immoral and despicable conduct.
Alternative facts, alternative reality and appalling narcissism on lurid display; these are her contributions to “journalism”. Way to go, Yeasty Thong! We learned much of great import from your cunty capers, Most Noble Zen Mistress of the Clap. We’ll be sure to take your automotive advice and kick cheatypants in his spare tire on a regular basis. Don’t be surprised or offended if somebody’s wife kicks you in the twat. It’s just her form of exhuberant defiance, and you’re all for that, right?
Off to vomit now.
“What Sleeping With Married Men Taught Me About Infidelity” OR “How I’m justifying my actions because I’m mad at my ex husband and probably my father (and probably a sociopath too)”
I’m not saying the answer is murder, which can be rife with jail time and messy cleanup. I believe the answer is consequences and the shut down of cake, no matter how unfair it is to Schmoopie. Lack of love/morals/a soul is common for manipulating cheating lying losers and it shouldn’t lead to cake. What if fair consequences-or, ideally, the urge to give the chump way more than fair because it was hard earned at the expense of their lives, health and family- can be the end of living in hell, thus leaving a cheater and gaining a life?
There. That’s better.
Here’s a thought- maybe your wife doesn’t want to have sex with you because she is emotionally abused by a passive aggressive narcissist and the thought of you touching her makes her skin crawl! How about that? For 20 years I was convinced something was wrong with me. Well 2 years freedom has taught me otherwise!
Post of the year.
Back in college I had a sociology professor who only had affairs with married women. He told a friend of mine that he had to ‘dip into that pool’ because only unattractive women were single. Pfffttt
Crazy funny.:….loved the line about boiling your head like a Christmas puddling and sticking a spike of holly in you cranium.
The last 17 months have been the worst in my life. Divorce, younger brother passing away, and this past Tuesday my mother passed away. I so very much needed a laugh.
Silver…so sorry to hear of your losses (((hugs)))
Silver, I’m so sorry for your terrible losses. Keep plodding forward in your grief. You got this, you really do!!!
So sorry for your loss Silver. Losing immediate family is enough of a test without divorce on top.
I hope you find more small moments of joy and laughter in the months to come – you’ll be in my thoughts.
I send you many many hugs.
So very sorry for the loss of your brother and your Mom.
Keep your sense of humor and never give in and never give up.
Don’t let anyone minimize your grief or your pain.
You WILL rise above.